From kerlyn2001@gmail.com Wed May 2 07:44:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8DCF21F8644 for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.492 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.492 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.184, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pEqHI9YNAg-9 for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CB621F85E3 for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so577214lag.31 for ; Wed, 02 May 2012 07:44:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=bh5U811QaaqsvdyRmO2jF1ax9IAEs8WBIu5vD5ApFsw=; b=VXJHRbv/Yvr4gZe+je1RSJ2rTCID4tatUWc12Z7asd/JeuwPVTnx2mMmWiU6OvqVbK wJmm5KzeONV3mh0BAfQGTz0olWCG92WwI8UPZokviBaMWN7YClKo6NPqP7KRpZtP+7kH Tb51S/FOu2GkH61h1glMygAWu3WJQq1Sk91k+vKe+Q03DA9pFXsBISkZVRUnnYZrCTAs QUqAO3L5Dwd7V7drChK2L68avB1kjF8WGgVDC4KLej5gjBxUR7NKO7i8NdJF+DHocXS/ SVOeqZE1Jbe4OWImrUzqLorbhqjpEuastj8bZ2rCjq7yeLb34yCFB/lekLiIIkBCO+/c pUmA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.87.195 with SMTP id ba3mr13236091lbb.75.1335969873222; Wed, 02 May 2012 07:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kerlyn2001@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.18.138 with HTTP; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:44:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 10:44:33 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7IiIsIynasQN6zuD1pGapO3QuPM Message-ID: Subject: Re: Building control standards From: Kerry Lynn To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ole_Tr=F8an?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401f7ebb95bbb04bf0eb975 Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 14:44:38 -0000 --f46d0401f7ebb95bbb04bf0eb975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Ole Tr=F8an wrote: > Kerry, > > apologies for sending this to you direct. partially a person interest (as > I'm refurbishing a house), but also of professional interest. > > with regards to the various building control system standards. are BACnet= , > instabus, EIB, KNX all basically the same, and covered by > draft-ietf-6man-6lobac-01? > > cheers, > Ole Hi Ole, No problem. I am not familiar with some of the standards you mention. The problem comes in when these "last meters" protocols develop their own proprietary data links. BACnet is in that camp currently with MS/TP, which is one of several data links that it supports but the only one that does no= t already have a "IPv6 over foo" RFC. As the larger vision is to transition BACnet to native IPv6 in the future, I believe that draft-ietf-6man-6lobac is a necessary step on that path since it is so widely deployed in commercial building automation systems. It is about a factor of 10 less costly than ethernet per driver, can cover long distances (1000-1200 m), and has a sufficient data rate for the BAC application (up to 115.2 kpbs). That said, in conjunction with changes being made in parallel to the data link (through a BACnet standard change proposal), I think that MS/TP can fill a niche at the low end of wired data links (similar to the niche that 6LoWPAN fills in wireless) and will transport arbitrary IPv6 packets up to 1500 octets in length (not including the IPHC dispatch header, and depending on link MTU setting). To the extent that the standards you mention will exchange their application data using standard IP transports, and the required data rate is 115.2 kbps or less, then IPv6 over MS/TP should be a viable option. Hope that answers your question, -K- --f46d0401f7ebb95bbb04bf0eb975 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Ole Tr=F8an=A0<otroan@employees.org= >=A0wrote:
Kerry,

apologies for sending this to you direct. partially a person = interest (as I'm refurbishing a house), but also of professional intere= st.

with regards to the various building control system standards. a= re BACnet, instabus, EIB, KNX all basically the same, and covered by draft-= ietf-6man-6lobac-01?

cheers,
Ole

Hi Ole,

No= problem. =A0I am not familiar with some of the standards you mention.
The problem comes in when these "last meters" protocols dev= elop their own
proprietary data links. =A0BACnet is in that camp currently with MS/TP= , which
is one of several data links that it supports but the onl= y one that does not
already have a "IPv6 over foo" RFC.= =A0As the larger vision is to transition
BACnet to native IPv6 in the future, I believe that draft-ietf-6man-6l= obac
is a necessary step on that path since it is so widely deplo= yed in commercial
building automation systems. =A0It is about a f= actor of 10 less costly than
ethernet per driver, can cover long distances (1000-1200 m), and has a=
sufficient data rate for the BAC application (up to 115.2 kpbs).=

That said, in conjunction with changes being made= in parallel to the data
link (through a BACnet standard change proposal), I think that MS/TP c= an
fill a niche at the low end of wired data links (similar to th= e niche that 6LoWPAN
fills in wireless) and will transport arbitr= ary IPv6 packets up to 1500 octets
in length (not including the IPHC dispatch header, and depending on li= nk
MTU setting). =A0To the extent that the standards you mention = will exchange
their application data using standard IP transports= , and the required data
rate is 115.2 kbps or less, then IPv6 over MS/TP should be a viable op= tion.

Hope that answers your question, -K-


--f46d0401f7ebb95bbb04bf0eb975-- From ichiroumakino@gmail.com Wed May 2 07:53:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908B821F8643 for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.143 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.143 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.156, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ld9bFZcalX-g for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A27921F862F for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 07:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhj6 with SMTP id hj6so3840441wib.13 for ; Wed, 02 May 2012 07:53:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=95MVuYRyH3FhbheItgzXOjLK4EIjV+csZ/Ez6hxCvSs=; b=wBK4joVgclrRgPkcRskgKugikvco/gV7SzWkaNs+2HJxQXzWrWJlkyl4mq2h4h0MAk A6oYxiap/+9HRItno5am3Lwv9EkwH7xUU5cRTQCZ+px7fMPoaEM9RcY3rUmyuQG+LDk6 MkvQc9ZXkjbN3J44ynm8+0j4z4CF3jLI02domeGoiQ0mXwwtM1EHXvNgN8oBVh7FVjj8 8A6ZZTZrxV44Kvcpf0EXwou5eMVyiLUcrsBTy1FTBCPl2BiaOvrMbNEpiKwEp/6I4k4u 8RK2xTkjhC2KRfClAcArWXv1FPBY72e9V80ywB42h0qJ7MC7HTlKT32B1dSyb8dMuzN9 88Aw== Received: by 10.180.86.197 with SMTP id r5mr11138036wiz.21.1335970386123; Wed, 02 May 2012 07:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-lys02-vla252-10-147-117-95.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fl2sm7366323wib.2.2012.05.02.07.53.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 02 May 2012 07:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ole Troan Subject: Re: Building control standards Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ole_Tr=F8an?= In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 16:53:02 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5659172E-E2E1-4DFF-9E91-E7E116D1C3AE@employees.org> References: To: Kerry Lynn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 14:53:08 -0000 Kerry, > No problem. I am not familiar with some of the standards you mention. > The problem comes in when these "last meters" protocols develop their = own > proprietary data links. BACnet is in that camp currently with MS/TP, = which > is one of several data links that it supports but the only one that = does not > already have a "IPv6 over foo" RFC. As the larger vision is to = transition > BACnet to native IPv6 in the future, I believe that = draft-ietf-6man-6lobac > is a necessary step on that path since it is so widely deployed in = commercial > building automation systems. It is about a factor of 10 less costly = than > ethernet per driver, can cover long distances (1000-1200 m), and has a > sufficient data rate for the BAC application (up to 115.2 kpbs). >=20 > That said, in conjunction with changes being made in parallel to the = data > link (through a BACnet standard change proposal), I think that MS/TP = can > fill a niche at the low end of wired data links (similar to the niche = that 6LoWPAN > fills in wireless) and will transport arbitrary IPv6 packets up to = 1500 octets > in length (not including the IPHC dispatch header, and depending on = link > MTU setting). To the extent that the standards you mention will = exchange > their application data using standard IP transports, and the required = data > rate is 115.2 kbps or less, then IPv6 over MS/TP should be a viable = option. thanks for your quick reply! KNX also refers to ANSI/ASHRAE 135 = (http://www.knx.org/knx-standard/introduction/) so I can only hope that the work on MS/TP will also cover Europe. cheers, Ole= From brian@innovationslab.net Wed May 2 11:52:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CB111E80AB for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 11:52:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.57 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.57 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjx1e2y1Olvg for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 11:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uillean.fuaim.com (uillean.fuaim.com [206.197.161.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AA911E80A4 for ; Wed, 2 May 2012 11:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clairseach.fuaim.com (clairseach.fuaim.com [206.197.161.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uillean.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF0788198; Wed, 2 May 2012 11:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clemson.local (nat-gwifi.jhuapl.edu [128.244.87.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clairseach.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9D1140039; Wed, 2 May 2012 11:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA18283.40507@innovationslab.net> Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 14:52:51 -0400 From: Brian Haberman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120327 Thunderbird/11.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "draft-ietf-6man-lineid@tools.ietf.org" , 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, 6man WG Subject: AD review: draft-ietf-6man-lineid Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 18:52:54 -0000 All, Here are my comments on the LineID draft. It is in pretty good shape, but I would like these issues addressed before moving on to IESG Review/IETF Last Call... Substantive ----------- - Section 2 (paragraph 3) : This text talks about "the network" getting some information from the subscriber-originated RS messages. Is it really the AN that gets this information or is it really the Edge Router? What information is being lost when the subscriber-initiated RS messages stop? - Section 2 (paragraph 5) : This paragraph states that this approach is "NOT RECOMMENDED for general deployments". Do you really mean general deployments or is is better to say deployments not using the N:1 VLAN model? - Section 5.1 : If the AN has an IPv6 address, why is its use in the encapsulating header only a SHOULD? - Section 6.3 : How does the edge router know what prefixes to map to the LIO? Should there be some specification that the RA transmitted must/should carry a PIO? - Section 7 : I would suggest for the definition of the Option Length s/The value 0 is considered invalid/The value MUST be greater than 0/ - Section 7.1 : I have questions on the use of SHOULD NOT in the last two paragraphs. In what situation would two line IDs be considered equal if they do not match byte-by-byte? To me, this can be changed to MUST NOT. I am not sure there is really any reason to say an intermediate system SHOULD NOT examine the Line ID. There is no way to enforce that rule. In what situation (or type of situation) would an intermediate system be allowed to modify the Line ID? Editorial --------- * Introduction - s/traditionally/traditional/ - s/[RFC1661] based some networks/[RFC1661] based, some networks/ - s/network in context/network in the context/ - None of the figures are referenced in the text - Expand GPON acronym on its first use * Terminology - The definition of AN uses the terms northbound and southbound. It would be useful to briefly define those (or use different terms). - I would define RG before Edge Router so that there is no dangling use of the term RG before it is defined. Or you can expand RG in the definition... - It may be useful to state whether the use of an RG is optional or not. - The definition of RG is missing a term: "...similar to one specified in or a Layer...". * Section 2 - s/VLAN deployment models line/VLAN deployment models, line/ - DHCP should be expanded on first use and a reference given. - I would suggest providing a reference for SLAAC. - s/this results on some/this results in some/ - s/Router Solicitations by initiating RSs/Router Solicitations (RSes) by initiating RSes/ - s/RSs/RSes/g - There is a dangling "e.g." in the middle of the third paragraph. * Section 3 - s/the end-device on the circuit the end-device is connected on/the end-device on the circuit/ - It would be useful to include a reference for DHCP relay agents. * Section 4 - The acronym ND needs to be expanded or changed to RS/RA. - Specify that it is the Hop Limit of the *inner* packet that must not be decremented. * Section 5.1 - The section uses the term "insert" when talking about the creation of the encapsulating (outer) packet. This makes me think of modifying an existing packet. It would be clearer to state that the encapsulating packet includes/contains a destination options header. * Section 5.2 - s/router advertisement/Router Advertisement/ - Rather than saying the AN will "multicast" the inner packet, would be sufficient to say it will "transmit" the inner packet? * Section 6.1 - Last sentence is missing a period. * Section 6.2 - s/this router advertisement(es./this router advertisement./ - s/All BBF Access Nodes/All-BBF-Access-Nodes/g * Section 6.3 - Provide an informative reference for ANCP. * Section 7 - s/an alignment requirement of (none)/no alignment requirements/ * Section 7.1 - The last sentence of the first paragraph is missing a period. Regards, Brian From wesley.george@twcable.com Thu May 3 08:43:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18B621F85C2 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 08:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.934 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.934 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.529, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Th3vMs3GRjud for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 08:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw01.twcable.com (cdpipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.59.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C22221F8595 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 08:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.14 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,524,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="376147262" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB05.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.14]) by cdpipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 03 May 2012 11:42:23 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS03.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.26]) by PRVPEXHUB05.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.14]) with mapi; Thu, 3 May 2012 11:42:47 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: Bob Hinden , "ipv6@ietf.org Mailing List" Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 11:42:43 -0400 Subject: RE: 6MAN WG Last Call: Thread-Topic: 6MAN WG Last Call: Thread-Index: Ac0Y8zpUqRXe0YkMQWyyHG1qdhNmgwQT7zAg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 15:43:33 -0000 Apologies on missing the cutoff, but I made the recommendation at the mic i= n Paris that this needed to say something referencing RFC 6598 and how thos= e addresses are to be treated. I just got around to checking and it seems t= o have been missed in this revision. Thanks, Wes > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of B= ob > Hinden > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:28 PM > To: ipv6@ietf.org Mailing List > Cc: Bob Hinden > Subject: 6MAN WG Last Call: > > All, > > This message starts a two week 6MAN Working Group on advancing: > > Title : Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol > version 6 (IPv6) > Author(s) : Dave Thaler > Richard Draves > Arifumi Matsumoto > Tim Chown > Filename : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-02.txt > Pages : 30 > Date : 2012-04-11 > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-02 > > as Proposed Standard. Substantive comments and statements of support for > advancing this document should be directed to the mailing list. > Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors. This last call will > end on April 26, 2012. > > Regards, > Ole Troan & Bob Hinden > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From dthaler@microsoft.com Thu May 3 16:58:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC8011E8080 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 16:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.883 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.284, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NoSUUV+7hA7O for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 16:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from db3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (db3ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.139]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D8411E8073 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 16:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail76-db3-R.bigfish.com (10.3.81.242) by DB3EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.3.84.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:58 +0000 Received: from mail76-db3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail76-db3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84905E01CF; Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:58 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -36 X-BigFish: VS-36(zz9371I936eK542M1432N4015Izz1202hzz1033IL8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14MLTC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail76-db3: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=dthaler@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14MLTC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail76-db3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail76-db3 (MessageSwitch) id 1336089476332915_1353; Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3EHSMHS018.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.81.253]) by mail76-db3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468754600C8; Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14MLTC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by DB3EHSMHS018.bigfish.com (10.3.87.118) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:55 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MLTW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.68) by TK5EX14MLTC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.79.159) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.298.5; Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:58 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([169.254.5.160]) by TK5EX14MLTW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.71.68]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.005; Thu, 3 May 2012 16:57:58 -0700 From: Dave Thaler To: "George, Wes" , Bob Hinden , "ipv6@ietf.org Mailing List" Subject: RE: 6MAN WG Last Call: Thread-Topic: 6MAN WG Last Call: Thread-Index: AQHNGPM99ULURgY3nEmykoUhbWUB95a4yjSAgAAUH0A= Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:57 +0000 Message-ID: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5AED7D@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 23:58:10 -0000 It already says "Other IPv4 addresses are assigned global scope." And since RFC 1918 addresses are treated as globals too, saying 6598 is tre= ated like any other global address didn't seem necessary. Still, in response to thi= s email, I'm changing to: "Other IPv4 addresses (including IPv4 private addresses [RFC1918] and=20 Shared Address Space addresses [RFC6598]) are assigned global scope." in -03, which at least makes it clear that this was intentional. -Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > George, Wes > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:43 AM > To: Bob Hinden; ipv6@ietf.org Mailing List > Subject: RE: 6MAN WG Last Call: >=20 > Apologies on missing the cutoff, but I made the recommendation at the mic= in > Paris that this needed to say something referencing RFC 6598 and how thos= e > addresses are to be treated. I just got around to checking and it seems t= o have > been missed in this revision. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Wes >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > > Of Bob Hinden > > Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:28 PM > > To: ipv6@ietf.org Mailing List > > Cc: Bob Hinden > > Subject: 6MAN WG Last Call: > > > > All, > > > > This message starts a two week 6MAN Working Group on advancing: > > > > Title : Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol > > version 6 (IPv6) > > Author(s) : Dave Thaler > > Richard Draves > > Arifumi Matsumoto > > Tim Chown > > Filename : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-02.txt > > Pages : 30 > > Date : 2012-04-11 > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-02 > > > > as Proposed Standard. Substantive comments and statements of support > > for advancing this document should be directed to the mailing list. > > Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors. This last call will > > end on April 26, 2012. > > > > Regards, > > Ole Troan & Bob Hinden > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable > proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to > copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely = for the > use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not = the > intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any disse= mination, > distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and > attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If= you have > received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any print= out. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dthaler@microsoft.com Thu May 3 17:40:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9EF11E8085 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 17:40:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.277, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eZsi8Wo6gAL2 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 17:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe004.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.207]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BE611E8080 for ; Thu, 3 May 2012 17:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail80-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.229) by AM1EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.3.204.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:30 +0000 Received: from mail80-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail80-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1FB402AF for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:30 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: 0 X-BigFish: VS0(zzzz1202hzzz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail80-am1: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=dthaler@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail80-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail80-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1336092027886843_10143; Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS008.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.240]) by mail80-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A3820058 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by AM1EHSMHS008.bigfish.com (10.3.207.108) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:26 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MLTW653.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.24.14) by TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.80.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.298.5; Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:35 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([169.254.5.160]) by TK5EX14MLTW653.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.24.14]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.005; Thu, 3 May 2012 17:40:35 -0700 From: Dave Thaler To: "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: RE: 3484bis and privacy addresses Thread-Topic: 3484bis and privacy addresses Thread-Index: AQHNGUajDaqZ7/kESEaVgy0zYPsEC5aZSPWQgAErsYCAACukIIAeSMbQ Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 00:40:34 +0000 Message-ID: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5AF1C5@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: <4F716D5C.40402@innovationslab.net> <4F726C9E.50107@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5054C1@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F83D8D0.5030402@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B508719@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F858C32.6060709@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B50CBC2@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F87D4EA.4040801@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B513879@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F8935C7.6020602@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5159E0@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5159E0@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 00:40:44 -0000 I wrote in response to Ray Hunter: > I take your comment as asking for a summary table in rfc 3484bis of > system-wide config options. That could be done as a purely editorial > change, although if there's only 1 thing in the table it's less interesti= ng. > But if others in the WG think this would be helpful, then yes we can do t= hat. Turns out there were already 2 things so I've done this in -03. =20 OLD: This specification optionally allows for the possibility of administrative configuration of policy (e.g., via manual configuration or a DHCP option such as that proposed in [I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt]) that can override the default behavior of the algorithms. The policy override takes the form of a configurable table that specifies precedence values and preferred source prefixes for destination prefixes. If an implementation is not configurable, or if an implementation has not been configured, then the default policy table specified in this document SHOULD be used. NEW: This specification optionally allows for the possibility of administrative configuration of policy (e.g., via manual configuration or a DHCP option such as that proposed in [I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt]) that can override the default behavior of the algorithms. The policy override consists of the following set of state, which SHOULD be configurable: o Policy Table (Section 2.1): a table that specifies precedence values and preferred source prefixes for destination prefixes. o Automatic Row Additions flag (Section 2.1): a flag that specifies whether the implementation may automatically add site-specific rows for certain types of addresses. o Privacy Preference flag (Section 5): a flag that specifies whether temporary source addresses or stable source addresses are preferred by default, when both types exist. This is purely an editorial change. The rest of Ray's comments apply to I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, which is already informatively=20 referenced in the above text. -Dave From ietfc@btconnect.com Fri May 4 01:50:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2837621F846E for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 01:50:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0-ZJO5AsJMJU for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 01:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.205]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F395B21F846A for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 01:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail44-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.249) by AM1EHSOBE005.bigfish.com (10.3.204.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:50:09 +0000 Received: from mail44-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail44-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAD2602C7; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:50:08 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -29 X-BigFish: PS-29(zz9371I542M1432N1418Izz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839hd24h304l) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.55.224.141; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:DB3PRD0702HT006.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received: from mail44-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail44-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1336121407688998_11105; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS014.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.227]) by mail44-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E3F240141; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3PRD0702HT006.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.55.224.141) by AM1EHSMHS014.bigfish.com (10.3.207.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:50:06 +0000 Received: from SN2PRD0710HT001.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.234.149) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.3.4.165) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.15.74.2; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:50:11 +0000 Message-ID: <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Brian E Carpenter , 6man References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 09:47:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.234.149] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 08:50:22 -0000 Brian To me, Option 3 is the clear, right way to go. Percent escaping is the purist answer, fine for URI experts who deal with percent escaping all the time. Most of the world is completely comfortable with URIs as long as they look like www.example.com/user/sample.html Some get confused even by the addition of http: and most would be completely thrown by the appearance of a percent sign (even if they are always appearing on the Internet Explorer address bar, which most people either do not look at or have turned off). I believe that the audience for this feature is widespread, not just limited to URI experts. IPv6 is horribly complicated, it will often go wrong, so I see help desks asking users to key this in as a common use case. In which case, you need a simple to locate on the keyboard, simple to refer to in 'English', character to separate the two fields. %25 is not it. Anything else would do but I think that underscore is the worst choice, because it vanishes. http://[fe80::a_en1 on my Microsoft MUA displays, underlined in blue, as f e 8 0 : : a [space] e n 1 so that is what I know it is; except of course I am a URI expert so I know that if it were really a space, the e n 1 would not be underlined in blue so there is a invisible underline there! tilde is nice, but too hard to find on the keyboard, so, of unreserved, that leaves period or hyphen; I would go for hyphen. --- Original Message ----- From: "Brian E Carpenter" To: "6man" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 9:54 AM > In the IETF 83 discussion of draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-00, > there was no clear consensus on the approach to pursue. In fact, > almost the same discussion occurred around draft-fenner-literal-zone > several years ago, but at that time the topic was simply dropped. > > This note summarises the main options. As a reminder, the problem to > be solved is how to tell a browser which interface to use when sending > packets to a literal link-local address. The reason for doing this is > purely for diagnostic purposes, since the Zone ID that identifies an > interface has no significance outside the sending host. For more details, > see the two drafts mentioned above. > > What we have today: link local address with no Zone ID > http://[fe80::a] > > The user cannot select the outgoing interface if there is more than one. > > The obvious solution would be to use the RFC4007 syntax (for an > example Zone ID of en1): > > http://[fe80::a%en1] > > However, this is impossible because % is *always* an escape character in > URI syntax [RFC3986]. There is no chance of the URI community accepting > such a hack to the syntax, so it isn't an option for us. > > The available options are therefore > > 1) Leave the problem unsolved. > > This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to be > performed using ping or ping6 > > ping fe80::a%en1 > > Advantage: works today. > > Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. > > 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: > > http://[fe80::a%25en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > 3) With alternative separator such as _ > > http://[fe80::a_en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > 4) With the "IPvFuture" syntax left open in RFC 3986: > > http://[v6.fe80::a_en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: ugly and redundant, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > Thus, the WG has to choose between options 1), 2), 3) and 4). > > Opinions welcome! > > Brian Carpenter From ichiroumakino@gmail.com Fri May 4 03:40:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF4B21F873E for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 03:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.014 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.014 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1yI1jqSAknDl for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 03:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A621B21F86E2 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 03:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhj6 with SMTP id hj6so1010883wib.13 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 03:40:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=ZCIpig3lw4CnTsqYrEtv+iOYmHH0+LRzQzKo/+iS8uc=; b=hXeCmjY13jyqTpmfFnxTeMyomBlY913lsT0YhiO2npJp4Ncqsb9ZrjP2UNi7N1TOgd ZWiKiej/y6jeYaIDFdf8OzKWJo9jqKErjLXEF+zekdVm348VHGR3igMqmlcp2HtZ5h9k 2SNSD0aY+b0E0utR7stSjaT1ljFuRltKcFRrMe63g0doTG5O/QRRPgHQKbD/mMYmlP4E d96OruUOy/sB6Yvc0Rbcze/ZV6BB+9b7hvbYBu2QlDnAfzCbJcJkKpB3jfgqB6mMTyOO C2Ffj6FB9lh6XWI5HQWjXX6nUbynnGUIg0wIY/5fGxetiYzaiHqbdSk+Uf0izr7ya46t jvvw== Received: by 10.180.77.4 with SMTP id o4mr11723897wiw.17.1336128001752; Fri, 04 May 2012 03:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-lys02-vla252-10-147-117-91.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o2sm13686015wiv.11.2012.05.04.03.40.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 04 May 2012 03:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ole Troan Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ole_Tr=F8an?= In-Reply-To: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 12:39:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <81B7AF4C-95E9-43C1-A344-70F92E04CF35@employees.org> References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 10:40:03 -0000 > 1) Leave the problem unsolved. >=20 > This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to be > performed using ping or ping6 >=20 > ping fe80::a%en1 >=20 > Advantage: works today. >=20 > Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. >=20 > 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: >=20 > http://[fe80::a%25en1] >=20 > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. if we went with option 2; considering that most browsers accept other = inputs than URIs, could the UI input be as today (fe80::a%en1) and the URI representation = as (fe80::a%25en1)? presumably also with other characters in the interface name escaped. e.g. if I input "interface Dot11Radio0/0/0" in Chrome's address bar I = get "interface+Dot11Radio0%2F0%2F0" cheers, Ole From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Fri May 4 05:50:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3E521F8615; Fri, 4 May 2012 05:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0HJXoqU5pG5; Fri, 4 May 2012 05:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AAD21F860B; Fri, 4 May 2012 05:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by omfedm11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AE3223B4439; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:50:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCH81.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.34]) by omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 88B7E27C053; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:50:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.233.200.25]) by PUEXCH81.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.34]) with mapi; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:50:31 +0200 From: To: "mboned-chairs@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 14:50:29 +0200 Subject: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format Thread-Index: Ac0p9HxleWTdQ5BUQkuVPrhA9CFoFw== Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7PUEXCB1Bnante_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.6.1.2065439, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.5.4.121515 Cc: Brian Haberman , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 12:50:33 -0000 --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian= suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 (S= SM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approach in= an early version of the document but it has been abandoned because of comm= ents we received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our design = choice in: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01= #appendix-A.2. We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following: (1) Should we maintain the current design choice (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian? FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: http://www.ietf.o= rg/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html. The latest version of the draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Your help is appreciated. Cheers, Med --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
D= ear=20 all,
 
D= uring the=20 IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian suggested = to=20 use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 (SSM) and=20 ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approach in an earl= y=20 version of the document but it has been abandoned because of comments = we=20 received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our design choice=20 in:
<= A=20 href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-f= ormat-01#appendix-A.2">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-mult= icast-address-format-01#appendix-A.2.
 
W= e are=20 seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:=20
 
(1) Should we maintain the current design=20 choice
(= 2) Or=20 adopt the suggestion from Brian?
 
<= SPAN=20 class=3D484033012-04052012>FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be fo= und=20 here: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html.
T= he latest=20 version of the draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address= -format-01
 
Y= our help is=20 appreciated.
 
Cheers,
Med
--_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7PUEXCB1Bnante_-- From rajiva@cisco.com Fri May 4 06:29:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D048721F86E4 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.541 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.539, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lV-SuqI1Wc6r for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124B221F86C3 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4537; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1336138156; x=1337347756; h=subject:references:content-transfer-encoding:from: in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:cc:mime-version; bh=VuiVv8uBkIi0DvA/U8YVa1x7V2KNygZyQE+MJF/42e0=; b=lPcl/e1YMWHwBqaCsYX8lmaSh3UG7QGHk3oFHjzPHWpzfzG5Cd8QPDyi 8mseU4plwxI6FvduQvm1EtdXLynAOdUE9k8OYkDllMNsK7SWm7kaMvdQk MCmlYEO8bkLn2Bd1uMWXazLt3zZpf+2Z8drJj2vsNj/zXnJ65DAiSVNic c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AngIAM3Yo0+tJV2Z/2dsb2JhbABFsl8CgQeCCQEBAQMBAQEBDwEnDyIDCwUHBAIBCBUBMCEGMAEBBBMUBweHXQMGBQuaapZADYlTigt6hSVjBIhkjRqLP4MagWmDBoE2 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,530,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="77373039" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 May 2012 13:29:15 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q44DTFqN021345; Fri, 4 May 2012 13:29:15 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-212.cisco.com ([72.163.62.219]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 4 May 2012 08:29:15 -0500 Received: from 72.163.62.219 ([72.163.62.219]) by XMB-RCD-212.cisco.com ([72.163.62.219]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 4 May 2012 13:29:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In-Reply-To: <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Thread-Index: Ac0p+eX7uQO8J1Y8RYCo9YvFoYXhhA== Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 08:29:11 -0500 To: "t.petch" MIME-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2012 13:29:15.0347 (UTC) FILETIME=[E6727A30:01CD29F9] Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 13:29:16 -0000 +1 for option 3 with hyphen.=20 I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. Cheers, Rajiv Sent from my Phone On May 4, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "t.petch" wrote: > Brian >=20 > To me, Option 3 is the clear, right way to go. >=20 > Percent escaping is the purist answer, fine for URI experts who deal with > percent escaping all the time. Most of the world is completely comfortabl= e with > URIs as long as they look like > www.example.com/user/sample.html > Some get confused even by the addition of http: and most would be complete= ly > thrown by the appearance of a percent sign (even if they are always appear= ing on > the Internet Explorer address bar, which most people either do not look at= or > have turned off). >=20 > I believe that the audience for this feature is widespread, not just limit= ed to > URI experts. IPv6 is horribly complicated, it will often go wrong, so I s= ee > help desks asking users to key this in as a common use case. In which cas= e, you > need a simple to locate on the keyboard, simple to refer to in 'English', > character to separate the two fields. %25 is not it. >=20 > Anything else would do but I think that underscore is the worst choice, be= cause > it vanishes. > http://[fe80::a_en1 > on my Microsoft MUA displays, underlined in blue, as > f e 8 0 : : a [space] e n 1 > so that is what I know it is; except of course I am a URI expert so I know= that > if it were really a space, the e n 1 would not be underlined in blue so th= ere is > a invisible underline there! >=20 > tilde is nice, but too hard to find on the keyboard, so, of unreserved, th= at > leaves period or hyphen; I would go for hyphen. >=20 > --- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian E Carpenter" > To: "6man" > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 9:54 AM >=20 >> In the IETF 83 discussion of draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-00, >> there was no clear consensus on the approach to pursue. In fact, >> almost the same discussion occurred around draft-fenner-literal-zone >> several years ago, but at that time the topic was simply dropped. >>=20 >> This note summarises the main options. As a reminder, the problem to >> be solved is how to tell a browser which interface to use when sending >> packets to a literal link-local address. The reason for doing this is >> purely for diagnostic purposes, since the Zone ID that identifies an >> interface has no significance outside the sending host. For more details,= >> see the two drafts mentioned above. >>=20 >> What we have today: link local address with no Zone ID >> http://[fe80::a] >>=20 >> The user cannot select the outgoing interface if there is more than one. >>=20 >> The obvious solution would be to use the RFC4007 syntax (for an >> example Zone ID of en1): >>=20 >> http://[fe80::a%en1] >>=20 >> However, this is impossible because % is *always* an escape character in >> URI syntax [RFC3986]. There is no chance of the URI community accepting >> such a hack to the syntax, so it isn't an option for us. >>=20 >> The available options are therefore >>=20 >> 1) Leave the problem unsolved. >>=20 >> This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to be >> performed using ping or ping6 >>=20 >> ping fe80::a%en1 >>=20 >> Advantage: works today. >>=20 >> Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. >>=20 >> 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: >>=20 >> http://[fe80::a%25en1] >>=20 >> Advantage: allows use of browser. >> Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. >>=20 >> 3) With alternative separator such as _ >>=20 >> http://[fe80::a_en1] >>=20 >> Advantage: allows use of browser. >> Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. >>=20 >> 4) With the "IPvFuture" syntax left open in RFC 3986: >>=20 >> http://[v6.fe80::a_en1] >>=20 >> Advantage: allows use of browser. >> Disadvantage: ugly and redundant, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. >>=20 >> Thus, the WG has to choose between options 1), 2), 3) and 4). >>=20 >> Opinions welcome! >>=20 >> Brian Carpenter >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Fri May 4 06:44:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A837A21F8666 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.163 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.163 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gTlU8ndIO8JJ for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EEA21F85D3 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (demetrius1.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.46]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C874213A3; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:44:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius1.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5PBwuMXu-kd; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29232139E; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 706C61EDC63A; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 15:44:11 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Message-ID: <20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , "t.petch" , 6man References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 6man , "t.petch" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 13:44:14 -0000 On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > +1 for option 3 with hyphen. > > I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this one will simply not work in the general case. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Fri May 4 06:54:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396E621F8758 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:54:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eeWAOK4qyQnZ for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000:226:55ff:fe57:14db]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8080321F8749 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 06:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ringo.viagenie.ca (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:230:c000:fd74:94dc:fbc7:7264]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C9EC40037 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 09:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4FA3DF9C.90802@viagenie.ca> Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 09:54:36 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:10.0.1) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: <20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 13:54:38 -0000 On 2012-05-04 09:44, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: >> +1 for option 3 with hyphen. >> >> I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. > > Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this one > will simply not work in the general case. The character just after the address is "special". We know it is special because it is just after the address. It can never be confused with the interface name itself. We could even choose something ridiculous, e.g. "x", as the special character and there would be no possibility of conflict. +1 for hyphen Simon -- DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca From ietfc@btconnect.com Fri May 4 07:04:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC7621F8762 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.358, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0FN5EtLZ9sAc for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (ch1ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.181.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A43621F8760 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail17-ch1-R.bigfish.com (10.43.68.238) by CH1EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.43.70.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:42 +0000 Received: from mail17-ch1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail17-ch1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6688480241; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:42 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -34 X-BigFish: PS-34(zz9371I936eK542M1432N98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839hd24h304l) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.55.224.141; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:DB3PRD0702HT011.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received: from mail17-ch1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail17-ch1 (MessageSwitch) id 1336140280377479_3881; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (snatpool1.int.messaging.microsoft.com [10.43.68.250]) by mail17-ch1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5471B460081; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3PRD0702HT011.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.55.224.141) by CH1EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (10.43.70.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:37 +0000 Received: from SN2PRD0710HT004.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.234.149) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.3.48.170) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.15.74.2; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: <05d201cd29f6$3053bbe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Simon Perreault , References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com><00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net><20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> <4FA3DF9C.90802@viagenie.ca> Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 15:02:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.234.149] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 14:04:55 -0000 ---- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Perreault" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid > On 2012-05-04 09:44, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > >> +1 for option 3 with hyphen. > >> > >> I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. > > > > Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this one > > will simply not work in the general case. > > The character just after the address is "special". We know it is special > because it is just after the address. It can never be confused with the > interface name itself. We could even choose something ridiculous, e.g. > "x", as the special character and there would be no possibility of conflict. > Yes, it is a bit like Microsoft and their use of \ \\ \\\ which, because of the context, can safely be parsed. Ditto some URI such as file:/// file://// Tom Petch > +1 for hyphen > > Simon > -- > DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca > NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca > STUN/TURN server --> http://numb.viagenie.ca > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Fri May 4 07:11:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9567121F86DF for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:11:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sx6BDLpxom6m for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78EC21F8618 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE0A213E6; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:10:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iuonc_PV8lk6; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:10:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDA521334; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:10:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id D88631EDC7C4; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:10:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 16:10:59 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Simon Perreault Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Message-ID: <20120504141059.GC13761@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Simon Perreault , ipv6@ietf.org References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> <4FA3DF9C.90802@viagenie.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4FA3DF9C.90802@viagenie.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 14:11:00 -0000 On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 09:54:36AM -0400, Simon Perreault wrote: > On 2012-05-04 09:44, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > >On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > >>+1 for option 3 with hyphen. > >> > >>I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. > > > >Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this one > >will simply not work in the general case. > > The character just after the address is "special". We know it is > special because it is just after the address. It can never be > confused with the interface name itself. We could even choose > something ridiculous, e.g. "x", as the special character and there > would be no possibility of conflict. My understanding is that URI formats place restrictions on the set of allowed unquoted characters. Some vendors (e.g. Juniper) use interface names that even contain slashes, e.g. fe-0/0/0. While replacing the % separating the zone identifier (typically an interface name) solves one problem, it does not solve the problems with fancy characters in the zone identifier. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From kerlyn2001@gmail.com Fri May 4 07:31:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6440621F859E for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.169, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O7HjTWkA4G8F for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1866221F859A for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbgo11 with SMTP id go11so2375864lbb.31 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 07:31:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=u6s8TjKzwTMVohy4yP0xvJnecRfR+3VG/Y217PnrEkg=; b=UI/lDJGH34LgsMOfDK7fm1Wolz1PdIPcfS2hXKaEJgdqQFNr1PCyCgIzLXcy2wkpal Bs1qC/A7pWft4YCh7BABI8iE+PvL1eKV+fZkTf30lkYinDPBvMnu4JjbeNnIg9JRaJfd hFuF2PnrO8PTPVhrm+r4AW84oPlTt46+VX5O8o9MWxMeYZI5eZkzi2fchRlfYIyN7S29 f82k46zYU/9bJEakKbMK0Zeams46gg/oh0X7vNs1lB3OTxgMxyMwAufBl7j+W+zO0MD3 tQNozSNYVLqB9uAygdnCI8Lq3ABNyTPPHkeQwJ420rIELrD8s2YLAos5vq+fuTZJUOr/ ZMBg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.128.201 with SMTP id nq9mr6032443lab.26.1336141860918; Fri, 04 May 2012 07:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kerlyn2001@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.18.138 with HTTP; Fri, 4 May 2012 07:31:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120504141059.GC13761@elstar.local> References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> <4FA3DF9C.90802@viagenie.ca> <20120504141059.GC13761@elstar.local> Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 10:31:00 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: blp2fqUXdepOllJrbRlY-SEWkAM Message-ID: Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid From: Kerry Lynn To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Simon Perreault , ipv6@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d042d0596fd546f04bf36c422 X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 14:31:03 -0000 --f46d042d0596fd546f04bf36c422 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 09:54:36AM -0400, Simon Perreault wrote: > > On 2012-05-04 09:44, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > >On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > > >>+1 for option 3 with hyphen. > > >> > > >>I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. > > > > > >Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this one > > >will simply not work in the general case. > > > > The character just after the address is "special". We know it is > > special because it is just after the address. It can never be > > confused with the interface name itself. We could even choose > > something ridiculous, e.g. "x", as the special character and there > > would be no possibility of conflict. > > Or even '%'. Oops... never mind. > My understanding is that URI formats place restrictions on the set of > allowed unquoted characters. Some vendors (e.g. Juniper) use interface > names that even contain slashes, e.g. fe-0/0/0. While replacing the % > separating the zone identifier (typically an interface name) solves > one problem, it does not solve the problems with fancy characters in > the zone identifier. > > If you look at the draft, you see that Brian has defined ZoneID = 1*( unreserved / pct-encoded ) so any "fancy" characters would need to be pct-encoded in the URI representation, but not in the UI. Do we want to take this one step further and update RFC 5952 with some sort of canonical representation for link-local addresses? I'm thinking that in the fullness of time it would certainly be nice to have cut-and-paste compatibility across IPv6 utilities. We could certainly retrofit e.g. ping6 to use either '%' or '-'. The folks who use it now (wizards) could continue to use the old separator or do the mental gymnastics in their heads (they are wizards, after all). Folks like my mom wouldn't even have to be aware that '%' was ever used (unless they're history of technology majors). -K- > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --f46d042d0596fd546f04bf36c422 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder &l= t;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 09= :54:36AM -0400, Simon Perreault wrote:
> On 2012-05-04 09:44, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> >On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wro= te:
> >>+1 for option 3 with hyphen.
> >>
> >>I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my gla= sses on.
> >
> >Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this = one
> >will simply not work in the general case.
>
> The character just after the address is "special". We know i= t is
> special because it is just after the address. It can never be
> confused with the interface name itself. We could even choose
> something ridiculous, e.g. "x", as the special character and= there
> would be no possibility of conflict.

Or even '%'. =A0Oops... never mind.
=A0
My understanding is that URI formats place restrictions on the set of=
allowed unquoted characters. Some vendors (e.g. Juniper) use interface
names that even contain slashes, e.g. fe-0/0/0. While replacing the %
separating the zone identifier (typically an interface name) solves
one problem, it does not solve the problems with fancy characters in
the zone identifier.

If you look at the dra= ft, you see that Brian has defined
ZoneID =3D 1*( unreserved / pct-encoded )
so any "fancy" characters would need to be pct-encoded=A0in = the URI
representation, but not in the UI.

Do we want to take this one step further and update RFC 5952 with some
sort of canonical representation for link-local addresses? =A0I'm = thinking that
in the fullness of time it would certainly be nice = to have cut-and-paste
compatibility across IPv6 utilities. =A0We = could certainly retrofit e.g. ping6
to use either '%' or '-'. =A0The folks who use it now = (wizards) could continue
to use the old separator or do the menta= l gymnastics in their heads (they
are wizards, after all). =A0Fol= ks like my mom wouldn't even have to be aware
that '%' was ever used (unless they're history of technolo= gy majors).

-K-

=A0
=
/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49= 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax: =A0 += 49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
-----------------------------= ---------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

--f46d042d0596fd546f04bf36c422-- From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Fri May 4 08:52:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404F021F8634 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:52:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RXJ8sTLY4RR5 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694D221F8633 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 08:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eeke51 with SMTP id e51so967616eek.31 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 08:52:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dt2+YMACiPFsjtCxcqYdRYTlQk7I57UlVVW/sTAzEVQ=; b=ggo+rQ+nDzceZOR4QmrzEdj8dMiB15f5LuiJWOPuRJLwcI5WlKHr2r7ud8lnsW00Dg cbEitrXgP7nmp55xSCJO9reF7WJVAIDqOPJ91Q9uBsF9SROY1HMYBzOYAP08t3Ht8Mce oLz+wfmzGjaDT9iLGJX2AiAaBiPKSs/INKV0H/GzDk4YHOIXxBJsmmFqVWQHpXqdVicF 8tAvxsZzIvhKS/GxI8EIu1cs/2uWPxcxbvnDL14xyrChvdc9vMSEseE54bcpfUs6QgCO +RunLgm5CC4Pi4JkN3hKifOEiQrIJeRsgi1ElSQoKjsyq+b0jfxEM4SpNLdzvbpyZC3b foLw== Received: by 10.14.101.65 with SMTP id a41mr1233324eeg.32.1336146746585; Fri, 04 May 2012 08:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-217-144.as13285.net. [2.102.217.144]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m42sm43538488eef.0.2012.05.04.08.52.24 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 04 May 2012 08:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA3FB37.1050801@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 16:52:23 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <00a401cd29ca$41453680$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <20120504134409.GA13761@elstar.local> <4FA3DF9C.90802@viagenie.ca> <20120504141059.GC13761@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: <20120504141059.GC13761@elstar.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 15:52:28 -0000 Juergen, that is a defect in RFC 4007, which left the character set undefined. We can't get that toothpaste back in the tube, but by using the ABNF construct ZoneID = 1*( unreserved / pct-encoded ) we can get round these cases; we can't fix them I'm afraid. Regards Brian On 2012-05-04 15:10, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 09:54:36AM -0400, Simon Perreault wrote: >> On 2012-05-04 09:44, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >>> On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 08:29:11AM -0500, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: >>>> +1 for option 3 with hyphen. >>>> >>>> I like to be able to read the URI without having to put my glasses on. >>> Interface names can contain other fancy characters and hence this one >>> will simply not work in the general case. >> The character just after the address is "special". We know it is >> special because it is just after the address. It can never be >> confused with the interface name itself. We could even choose >> something ridiculous, e.g. "x", as the special character and there >> would be no possibility of conflict. > > My understanding is that URI formats place restrictions on the set of > allowed unquoted characters. Some vendors (e.g. Juniper) use interface > names that even contain slashes, e.g. fe-0/0/0. While replacing the % > separating the zone identifier (typically an interface name) solves > one problem, it does not solve the problems with fancy characters in > the zone identifier. > > /js > From bob.hinden@gmail.com Fri May 4 11:49:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA1421F8634 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.622 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.622 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0pVfwxwVsTeu for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gg0-f172.google.com (mail-gg0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC0121F8630 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ggmi1 with SMTP id i1so614241ggm.31 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 11:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :cc:to:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=p/lUkJzFb6j6MyplmdWIAFJ+yg+9HtPbav7igrBwGq0=; b=sU8IDSe8616w3b4lT/Bx1+0E+Bcy0vimwS6Vc5eVIYcdsLKyjAjJPTHuoM7sLFFKyF 073se2+a0JpaDLtVUmZS620Y4WmrxlPoQtY1aSq18BxDu4reo5LoK5uHtieGjb5Rp48R nDSEW+e2fFZa7YLwJ5qNC6Eh+gjV+Avfi05YlCuDuobuUBPB3oEczIKujn9jpbBQAWdL Oy9k2uWWTzYPlX/6Phl6O/muwTjahMg4BeeJFYsoy1WFoPlBKeeUjJewP9lfx/XSnRcG Fzd5OGoxZ6g51TSajivfdZdyVInHx7kLlRVx2jLUHqsxxKWxs6PrLahC1WiNqd2VdKQi nn6A== Received: by 10.42.28.135 with SMTP id n7mr3624742icc.46.1336157368718; Fri, 04 May 2012 11:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.224.217] ([209.97.127.34]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rc5sm971409igb.15.2012.05.04.11.49.27 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 04 May 2012 11:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: 6MAN WG Last Call: Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 11:49:26 -0700 Message-Id: <5365815A-BA50-4E2E-9A38-3656EBDFCCEC@gmail.com> To: IPv6 WG Mailing List Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: Bob Hinden X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 18:49:29 -0000 All, This message starts a two week 6MAN Working Group last call on = advancing: Title : Processing of IPv6 "atomic" fragments Author(s) : Fernando Gont Filename : draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-atomic-fragments-00.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2012-02-01 = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-atomic-fragments-00 as a Proposed Standard. Substantive comments and statements of support = for advancing this document should be directed to the mailing list. = Editorial suggestions can be sent to the author. This last call will = end on May 18, 2012. Regards, Ole Troan & Bob Hinden 6man chairs From albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com Fri May 4 12:29:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED06311E8080; Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.023 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.023 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.425, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9I+Y3TMYLfa3; Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.64.128]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6268611E8072; Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id q44JTXed005546; Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:33 -0700 Received: from blv-relay-01.boeing.com (blv-relay-01.boeing.com [130.247.16.37]) by slb-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id q44JTWHi005538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:33 -0700 Received: from blv-relay-01.boeing.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by blv-relay-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id q44JTW9R027014; Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:32 -0700 Received: from XCH-MWHT-01.mw.nos.boeing.com (xch-mwht-01.mw.nos.boeing.com [134.57.113.35]) by blv-relay-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id q44JTVFX026958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 4 May 2012 12:29:32 -0700 Received: from XCH-MW-08V.mw.nos.boeing.com ([134.57.119.191]) by XCH-MWHT-01.mw.nos.boeing.com ([134.57.113.35]) with mapi; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:29:32 -0500 From: "Manfredi, Albert E" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "mboned-chairs@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 14:29:30 -0500 Subject: RE: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format Thread-Index: Ac0p9HxleWTdQ5BUQkuVPrhA9CFoFwANhJxA Message-ID: References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> In-Reply-To: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B0147C3DD45E42478038FC347CCB65FE02BB8BA441XCHMW08Vmwnos_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: No Cc: "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 19:29:36 -0000 --_000_B0147C3DD45E42478038FC347CCB65FE02BB8BA441XCHMW08Vmwnos_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know why IPv6 becomes more arcane with every new I-D. Why not work = to make it simpler, rather than more complex and confusing, with every new = iteration? In this particular case, it is really confusing to change the location of t= his new field, 64IX, depending whether it's ASM or SSM. And I might suggest= to drop the 64IX nibble altogether. Use the remaining bit of the flgs fiel= d instead of the M bit of the 64IX field, and then allow for different comb= inations of the flgs bits for future codes? Bert From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of moh= amed.boucadair@orange.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 8:50 AM To: mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org Cc: Brian Haberman; draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.iet= f.org Subject: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format Dear all, During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian= suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 (S= SM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approach in= an early version of the document but it has been abandoned because of comm= ents we received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our design = choice in: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01= #appendix-A.2. We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following: (1) Should we maintain the current design choice (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian? FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: http://www.ietf.o= rg/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html. The latest version of the draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Your help is appreciated. Cheers, Med --_000_B0147C3DD45E42478038FC347CCB65FE02BB8BA441XCHMW08Vmwnos_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don’t know why IPv6 becomes more arcane with every new I= -D. Why not work to make it simpler, rather than more complex and confusing= , with every new iteration?

 

In this particular case, it is really confusing to c= hange the location of this new field, 64IX, depending whether it’s AS= M or SSM. And I might suggest to drop the 64IX nibble altogether. Use the r= emaining bit of the flgs field instead of the M bit of the 64IX field, and = then allow for different combinations of the flgs bits for future codes?

&n= bsp;

Bert

&n= bsp;

From: ipv6-bounces@ie= tf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair= @orange.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 8:50 AM
To: mbon= ed-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
Cc: Brian Haberman; draft-ietf-= mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org
Subject: draft-= ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format

 

Dear all,

 

= During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian= suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 (S= SM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approa= ch in an early version of the document but it has been abandoned becau= se of comments we received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind o= ur design choice in:

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-= format-01#appendix-A.2.

 

We are seeking more feedback fro= m 6man and mboned on the following:

 

(1) Should we main= tain the current design choice

(2)&nbs= p;Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?

 

FWIW, discussion relat= ed to this issue can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web= /mboned/current/msg01508.html.

The= latest version of the draft is available at: http://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01=

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Your help is appreciated.

 

Cheers,

<= /div>

Med

= --_000_B0147C3DD45E42478038FC347CCB65FE02BB8BA441XCHMW08Vmwnos_-- From internet-drafts@ietf.org Fri May 4 15:52:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF2A21F848F; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hcy2dnNJGFc9; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A0B21F848B; Fri, 4 May 2012 15:52:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-03.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.02 Message-ID: <20120504225229.14794.56417.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 15:52:29 -0700 Cc: ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 22:52:38 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the= IETF. Title : Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol version = 6 (IPv6) Author(s) : Dave Thaler Richard Draves Arifumi Matsumoto Tim Chown Filename : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-03.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2012-05-04 This document describes two algorithms, for source address selection and for destination address selection. The algorithms specify default behavior for all Internet Protocol version 6 (IPv6) implementations. They do not override choices made by applications or upper-layer protocols, nor do they preclude the development of more advanced mechanisms for address selection. The two algorithms share a common context, including an optional mechanism for allowing administrators to provide policy that can override the default behavior. In dual stack implementations, the destination address selection algorithm can consider both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses - depending on the available source addresses, the algorithm might prefer IPv6 addresses over IPv4 addresses, or vice-versa. All IPv6 nodes, including both hosts and routers, must implement default address selection as defined in this specification. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-03.txt The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis/ From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Fri May 4 16:29:59 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17D421E8015; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oSqckSr3S7YF; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9499611E8072; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so2728720lag.31 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 16:29:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vgU+/flsSc2TBEBK22njkivnkzYQ2NAX1wijY4CQ13o=; b=eLDeWSsVKrTcQVcp6ZucIG+4lxUp0/QyurBpYrXJssulGVKTOzx/r7ZiVMfFY/QVcn msOGSYQECS4q8tNmkK0RHTErUypfPI3XeGre1PZloqEbRFXkbhIC3ua25eO7BMF9LnrE tZeZGsMYjEKcNs5757cEYuXKVLKV17QrpUrcS6MyEP5URDCwSXqXUlpjAPhXVRMA9h3B VVwM5fm7q06zOPAjwKL+Zuyt8VaUGl6GWgvRBcX7sPOZvhx8SsGmwhwrQ7JYwXJk2jca MFAqstdOorbg/oTkDzcgPK5JjYVZUo1NwsczxG+AIK45OStwgnZYbKQDejV/gs9n1Qqs Q5lA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.37.164 with SMTP id z4mr1846936lbj.100.1336174197452; Fri, 04 May 2012 16:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.56.13 with HTTP; Fri, 4 May 2012 16:29:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 19:29:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format From: Marshall Eubanks To: "Manfredi, Albert E" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" , "mboned-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 23:29:59 -0000 On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Manfredi, Albert E wrote: > I don=92t know why IPv6 becomes more arcane with every new I-D. Why not w= ork > to make it simpler, rather than more complex and confusing, with every ne= w > iteration? > When you start with simplicity, experience will add complexity. Regards Marshall > > > In this particular case, it is really confusing to change the location of > this new field, 64IX, depending whether it=92s ASM or SSM. And I might su= ggest > to drop the 64IX nibble altogether. Use the remaining bit of the flgs fie= ld > instead of the M bit of the 64IX field, and then allow for different > combinations of the flgs bits for future codes? > > > > Bert > > > > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 8:50 AM > To: mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org > Cc: Brian Haberman; > draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org > Subject: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format > > > > Dear all, > > > > During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Bri= an > suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 > (SSM)=A0and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that appro= ach > in an early version of the=A0document but it has been abandoned because o= f > comments we received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our > design choice in: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-= 01#appendix-A.2. > > > > We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following: > > > > (1)=A0Should we maintain the current design choice > > (2)=A0Or adopt the suggestion from Brian? > > > > FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html. > > The latest version of the draft is available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-= 01 > > > > Your help is appreciated. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From v6ops@globis.net Fri May 4 23:41:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35AF21F8454 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 23:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.163, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1n7TdYtDHwh for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 23:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E0821F8453 for ; Fri, 4 May 2012 23:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C157A870080; Sat, 5 May 2012 08:41:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at globis01.globis.net Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RDFXfMXy64rc; Sat, 5 May 2012 08:41:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 321A787007B; Sat, 5 May 2012 08:41:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4FA4CB7A.4060103@globis.net> Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 08:40:58 +0200 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.3 (Macintosh/20120304) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Thaler Subject: Re: RE: 3484bis and privacy addresses References: <4F716D5C.40402@innovationslab.net> <4F726C9E.50107@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5054C1@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F83D8D0.5030402@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B508719@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F858C32.6060709@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B50CBC2@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F87D4EA.4040801@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B513879@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F8935C7.6020602@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5159E0@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5AF1C5@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5AF1C5@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 06:41:09 -0000 ACK. Thanks. Dave Thaler wrote: > I wrote in response to Ray Hunter: >> I take your comment as asking for a summary table in rfc 3484bis of >> system-wide config options. That could be done as a purely editorial >> change, although if there's only 1 thing in the table it's less interesting. >> But if others in the WG think this would be helpful, then yes we can do that. > > Turns out there were already 2 things so I've done this in -03. > > OLD: > This specification optionally allows for the possibility of > administrative configuration of policy (e.g., via manual > configuration or a DHCP option such as that proposed in > [I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt]) that can override the default > behavior of the algorithms. The policy override takes the form of a > configurable table that specifies precedence values and preferred > source prefixes for destination prefixes. If an implementation is > not configurable, or if an implementation has not been configured, > then the default policy table specified in this document SHOULD be > used. > > NEW: > This specification optionally allows for the possibility of > administrative configuration of policy (e.g., via manual > configuration or a DHCP option such as that proposed in > [I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt]) that can override the default > behavior of the algorithms. The policy override consists of the > following set of state, which SHOULD be configurable: > > o Policy Table (Section 2.1): a table that specifies precedence > values and preferred source prefixes for destination prefixes. > o Automatic Row Additions flag (Section 2.1): a flag that specifies > whether the implementation may automatically add site-specific > rows for certain types of addresses. > o Privacy Preference flag (Section 5): a flag that specifies whether > temporary source addresses or stable source addresses are > preferred by default, when both types exist. > > This is purely an editorial change. The rest of Ray's comments apply > to I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, which is already informatively > referenced in the above text. > > -Dave > > From bob.hinden@gmail.com Sat May 5 19:12:19 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0036621F84E7; Sat, 5 May 2012 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xY0DLhl3i50g; Sat, 5 May 2012 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD7421F84E6; Sat, 5 May 2012 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbeh20 with SMTP id eh20so7387856obb.31 for ; Sat, 05 May 2012 19:12:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=cNo8GLSeizY/rnrfEuyJDLNQO1UQx5FSnk1q47DWf4o=; b=UrqJd6G41MF3AVreb8XqEcYu4gNWvPO+Zv6pBknB3IUWLKHRpdMB3zYmS4+t3vtEW7 nb1xB8vatPN6GfBmwjgKTQavtdqfBw2gHsu8NevIlTeM7v2rJVdUw/9zqClpIc1/TVwA bCnu0QlzwaFLrNxJ8C0+n6tZ8hwQif4qQEw7S92qvhinxR8DB6wOoXnEhp4IKH6sol/W mbN5L+KcoWiIAty5xBtEK03woLVCKB/iG4/umn/nKnij86fKAy0SqSLA2xWopL6Fr7rl Dldpreel7eNxJfJ3oM2F+w3gtovOvRb7BHqGkyzjlFzCxfRnJgGKehWyhfO9T072CJuo nynA== Received: by 10.50.179.71 with SMTP id de7mr4709790igc.32.1336270337695; Sat, 05 May 2012 19:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.21] (c-24-130-151-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.130.151.138]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dd3sm3201361igb.0.2012.05.05.19.12.15 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 05 May 2012 19:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 19:12:14 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> To: "Mohamed Boucadair" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" , "mboned-chairs@ietf.org" , Bob Hinden , Brian Haberman , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 02:12:19 -0000 Med, On May 4, 2012, at 5:50 AM, = wrote: > Dear all, > =20 > During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, = Brian suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving = ff3x:0:8000/33 (SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have = considered that approach in an early version of the document but it has = been abandoned because of comments we received at that time. We recorded = the rationale behind our design choice in: > = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-0= 1#appendix-A.2. > =20 > We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following: > =20 > (1) Should we maintain the current design choice > (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian? > =20 > FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html. > The latest version of the draft is available at: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-0= 1 [personal hat on and co-author of RFC 4291] I reviewed the draft and read through the thread you referred to. =20 I don't think the approach defined in this draft is needed nor the = resulting complexity it proposes adding to the IPv6 Address = Architecture. Instead of what is proposed one could reserve a block of = group ids (33 or 33 bits worth) and eliminate all of the type bits at = the front. Or better yet, just keep a mapping table in the translator that maps the = IPv4 multicast group to an IPv6 multicast group ID? That wouldn't = require any changes in the IPv6 multicast address. If the purpose of = these boxes is to do translation, then this should be possible, like is = done with other forms of Network Address Translation (NAT). This would = also mean that you wouldn't need anything close to 2^^32 multicast = groups as I suspect the number that will be used in practice will be = much smaller. My overall conclusion is that I don't see the need for any changes to = the IPv6 addressing architecture to support this application. Bob > =20 > Your help is appreciated. > =20 > Cheers, > Med > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cabo@tzi.org Sun May 6 13:57:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B735A21F84F0; Sun, 6 May 2012 13:57:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FaWMSzbt2TOr; Sun, 6 May 2012 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890AA21F84AA; Sun, 6 May 2012 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q46KvdU6003700; Sun, 6 May 2012 22:57:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p548996D9.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.150.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F1E4B111; Sun, 6 May 2012 22:57:38 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Subject: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 From: Carsten Bormann Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 22:57:38 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> To: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 06 May 2012 14:12:47 -0700 Cc: mboned@ietf.org, 6man@ietf.org, The IESG X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 20:57:52 -0000 I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for this draft (for background on appsdir, please see = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectorate ). Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten --------------------------------- Document: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Title: IPv4-Embedded IPv6 Multicast Address Format Reviewer: Carsten Bormann Review Date: 2012-05-06 IETF Last Call Date: 2012-04-19 ** Summary: This draft is NOT ready for publication as a Proposed Standard and should be revised before publication. The document appears as an attempt to extend the reasoning of RFC 6052 to multicast IPv4 addresses. However, while unicast IPv4 addresses and their IPv6 counterparts are assigned as part of network configuration, multicast addresses are decided upon by applications. The document is very short on information how an application should decide when to make use of the newly defined formats. It is therefore also hard to understand why these formats are needed in the first place. There appears to be a transition model in the minds of the authors that makes this necessary or practical, and this information must be made part of the document for it to be useful. ** Major Issues: To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this document is in use. What for? More generally, which entities need to interoperate based on a common understanding of this format? Of the various fields left "configurable according to local policies of the entity managing the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection Function", which are important for applications? How do they know these policies? If that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and "SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this information available to applications? I don't think this can be a standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol for disseminating this information. What is an implementation supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it is governed by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed prefixes disseminated to the implementation? This document needs editorial attention. I will abstain from trying to make detailed corrections, as this would become tedious quickly. While much of this work could be done by the RFC editor, some of the editorial decisions will enter e.g. IANA registries, so the technical terms need to be decided now. More importantly, understanding this document during its development process (including mine as a reviewer) may be hampered by its editorial shortcomings. ** Minor Issues: My first editorial problem is with the title. This address format is not embedded in IPv4, as the title wants to make us believe. Instead, it is talking about an multicast address format for IPv6 that embeds an IPv4 multicast address. (While this misleading naming repeats the same mistake that has been made in RFC 6052, at least there it is not part of the title.) 3 The role of 64IX is very unclear. My conjecture is that this draft is defining the address format for the case M=3D1 only (i.e., address[16] =3D= 1). No text defines what happens for M=3D0, so the assumption appears to be that RFC 4291 applies unchanged in this case. If this conjecture is correct, this needs to be made much clearer. What is "r"? Define. 4 Why is 64IX moving around here? (The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].) How does one find out which of the two positions of the M bit to use? . o sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros. How does an application find out when to choose a different one? . 232.0.0.1-232.0.0.255 range is being . reserved to IANA. Who is making this reservation? ("is being reserved" means the resernation is going on right now, but I don't find anything in 9.) 7 7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052 is in use. If this is true, this should be clearly stated. More specifically, the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the same RFC 6052 parameters in effect. How is that ensured? ** Nits: 10 -- s/defined/defines/ (And many more, see above.) From marka@isc.org Sun May 6 16:59:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1478221F8567 for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 16:59:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.163, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bhWHDv7UiJSI for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 16:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1EA21F84D5 for <6man@ietf.org>; Sun, 6 May 2012 16:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D48C35F9C1E for <6man@ietf.org>; Sun, 6 May 2012 23:59:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:b8eb:6257:ee7d:50d1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D13E216C31 for <6man@ietf.org>; Sun, 6 May 2012 23:59:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E7B206E4F1 for <6man@ietf.org>; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:59:19 +1000 (EST) To: 6man@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews Subject: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 09:59:19 +1000 Message-Id: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 06 May 2012 18:52:37 -0700 X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 23:59:35 -0000 See the nanog thread starting here: http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-May/048079.html -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Sun May 6 23:57:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1316D21F84D8 for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 23:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.127, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zliWjFP8rLtf for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 23:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D16821F84C8 for <6man@ietf.org>; Sun, 6 May 2012 23:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhj6 with SMTP id hj6so2580988wib.13 for <6man@ietf.org>; Sun, 06 May 2012 23:56:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zN9vpRSHMpl8g8lj/GfAudZkLVX7hnr5sF5a4mqjvho=; b=Y4XEnl3rLP4hAe61YoFchCRL6OkhsviLaS7Ohp6UgrGgzU38vyB+JoWA70fg8jHiJV Z8u3qYbenRAD6HIDvd0DUxvmAOX2s7vfBdH37aP38Kyh9hey5b7+4eKm2EVPb6UcEw26 6lp1rpXlfg2KKkrn40oenZyBzWx3MNqnL8ix/udFXIPiF8aVq+Zi61P/UXTMn69u0Whz gJrGmnAsiwY+Md4dfDmOpbBWdllO8DKdFVjOfcqhYVblpXYhpuWDp8SSDNsinXXKsf/c H/ysrn5Rxn8goDDZ/Vss7/rAqeLd4HCPje6gmCJJeaLXushGFCGvnkSjpUAzWNpAifpT kv0Q== Received: by 10.180.101.136 with SMTP id fg8mr32428202wib.4.1336373819280; Sun, 06 May 2012 23:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-217-144.as13285.net. [2.102.217.144]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h8sm31069379wix.4.2012.05.06.23.56.57 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 06 May 2012 23:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:56:54 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 May 2012 00:31:31 -0700 Cc: 6man@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 06:57:01 -0000 On 2012-05-07 00:59, Mark Andrews wrote: > See the nanog thread starting here: > http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-May/048079.html > I'm sure the intention was to reserve the entire /10 prefix but it's correct that the RFC is not clear about this. Seems like an erratum is needed. Brian From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon May 7 00:50:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD08A21F84D3 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 00:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.540, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOniKR-ZP3vw for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 00:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.144]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B019C21F84B3 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 00:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id q477oYCL020840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:50:35 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q477oY12031660 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:50:34 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id q477oVG2021031 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:50:34 +0200 Message-ID: <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 09:50:31 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:50:37 -0000 That ambiguity around the prefix length /10 vs /64 of a link-local address should be clarified. If clarified, among other advantages, it would allow to write C code which, when typing "ifconfig eth0 add fe80::1" it would know to fill in the prefix length by itself, and not wonder about which length should it be. Alex Le 07/05/2012 08:56, Brian E Carpenter a écrit : > On 2012-05-07 00:59, Mark Andrews wrote: >> See the nanog thread starting here: >> http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-May/048079.html >> > > I'm sure the intention was to reserve the entire /10 prefix but it's > correct that the RFC is not clear about this. Seems like an erratum > is needed. > > Brian > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dthaler@microsoft.com Mon May 7 08:39:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC3121F85FD for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 08:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.252, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZaUmC-Ki7RPt for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (va3ehsobe010.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6641621F85F4 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail88-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.253) by VA3EHSOBE008.bigfish.com (10.7.40.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:39:26 +0000 Received: from mail88-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail88-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE94403D2 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:38:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14HUBC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -39 X-BigFish: VS-39(zzbb2dI9371Ic89bh936eK542M1432N98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839hd25h) X-FB-SS: 0, Received-SPF: pass (mail88-va3: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=dthaler@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14HUBC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail88-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail88-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1336405132275548_21817; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:38:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS026.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.238]) by mail88-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC0F3A0044 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:38:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by VA3EHSMHS026.bigfish.com (10.7.99.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:38:48 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MLTW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.68) by TK5EX14HUBC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.80.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.298.5; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:38:56 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MLTW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.39) by TK5EX14MLTW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.298.5; Mon, 7 May 2012 08:38:56 -0700 Received: from TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([169.254.5.160]) by TK5EX14MLTW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.71.39]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.005; Mon, 7 May 2012 08:38:56 -0700 From: Dave Thaler To: "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: RE: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Topic: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Index: AQHNK/QgGyZZTfkT90utwS/iqTPEg5a+WpwAgAAO+4CAAAunUA== Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:38:55 +0000 Message-ID: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:39:54 -0000 >From the thread cited: > Or did the authors really intend that most of fe80::/10 > remain unused, and *only* a single /64 at the very > start of fe80::/10 would be valid? Right. The intent was a bit clearer in RFC 3513, which RFC 4291 obsoletes. Section 4 has: > The initial assignment of IPv6 address space is as follows: > > Allocation Prefix Fraction of > (binary) Address Space > ----------------------------------- -------- ------------- ... > Link-Local Unicast Addresses 1111 1110 10 1/1024 > Site-Local Unicast Addresses 1111 1110 11 1/1024 And yet a bit clearer in RFC 2373 (and RFC 1884 the original). It has the same as above plus: > The only address prefixes which should be predefined in an > implementation are the: > > o Unspecified Address > o Loopback Address > o Multicast Prefix (FF) > o Local-Use Prefixes (Link-Local and Site-Local) > o Pre-Defined Multicast Addresses > o IPv4-Compatible Prefixes So they define the /10 as the link local *prefix*, within which any *addresses* have to fall into the /64. The rest of the /10 is unused but is still defined as link-local scope. -Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Alexandru Petrescu > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 12:51 AM > To: ipv6@ietf.org > Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local addr= ess >=20 > That ambiguity around the prefix length /10 vs /64 of a link-local addres= s > should be clarified. >=20 > If clarified, among other advantages, it would allow to write C code whi= ch, > when typing "ifconfig eth0 add fe80::1" it would know to fill in the pref= ix > length by itself, and not wonder about which length should it be. >=20 > Alex >=20 > Le 07/05/2012 08:56, Brian E Carpenter a =E9crit : > > On 2012-05-07 00:59, Mark Andrews wrote: > >> See the nanog thread starting here: > >> http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/2012-May/048079.html > >> > > > > I'm sure the intention was to reserve the entire /10 prefix but it's > > correct that the RFC is not clear about this. Seems like an erratum is > > needed. > > > > Brian > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative > > Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From huitema@microsoft.com Mon May 7 09:55:13 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD89B21F846E for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XiwRSEKFDfnz for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E1621F8458 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail82-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.229) by AM1EHSOBE004.bigfish.com (10.3.204.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:54 +0000 Received: from mail82-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail82-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9990E4A0407 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:53 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: 0 X-BigFish: VS0(zzzz1202hzzz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25h) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14HUBC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received-SPF: pass (mail82-am1: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=huitema@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14HUBC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail82-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail82-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1336409691712905_16947; Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS007.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.252]) by mail82-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BFB460115 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by AM1EHSMHS007.bigfish.com (10.3.207.107) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:51 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC272.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.2.64]) by TK5EX14HUBC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.7.154]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.005; Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:49 +0000 From: Christian Huitema To: Dave Thaler , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: RE: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Topic: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Index: AQHNK/QfH0wm9HiMeUyuYY0AjTdiAZa95UMAgAAO+4CAAILfgIAAEu8g Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 16:54:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.74] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 16:55:13 -0000 >> Link-Local Unicast Addresses 1111 1110 10 1/1024 >> Site-Local Unicast Addresses 1111 1110 11 1/1024 >... > So they define the /10 as the link local *prefix*, within which any *addr= esses* have to fall into the /64. > The rest of the /10 is unused but is still defined as link-local scope. The specs may be reasonable, but they did cause confusion for addresses in = FE80::/10 but out of FE80::/64. Some implementations appear to treat these = addresses as global, others as local, and yet others as "unexpected." There= may be a way to use these addresses as an attack vectors against poor impl= ementations. Given that, I would suggest to be very specific: * FE80::/64 is used for configuring link local addresses; * FE80::/10 is reserved by the IETF.=20 * By default, implementations SHOULD discard packets received from addresse= s in FE80::/10 outside of FE80::/64 -- Christian Huitema From drc@virtualized.org Mon May 7 10:09:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C36F21F84C9 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:09:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9lzA-F8I81r for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trantor.virtualized.org (trantor.virtualized.org [199.48.134.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C87F21F846E for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-64-9-234-8.googlewifi.com (user-64-9-234-8.googlewifi.com [64.9.234.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drc) by trantor.virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 17A1E1705A; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:08:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 10:07:49 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <113B5F7B-646A-4012-9F10-A994BFE39E8B@virtualized.org> References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> To: Christian Huitema X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:09:00 -0000 Hi, On May 7, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: > Given that, I would suggest to be very specific: +1 > * FE80::/64 is used for configuring link local addresses; > * FE80::/10 is reserved by the IETF.=20 > * By default, implementations SHOULD discard packets received from = addresses in FE80::/10 outside of FE80::/64 I personally believe the lesson we've learned from the Class E space is = that this sort of reservation/direction is less useful than we might = like. =20 Regards, -drc From Tina.Tsou.Zouting@huawei.com Mon May 7 10:18:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E54921F8659 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mF8TEdn+aF+K for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B5621F8658 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO dfweml202-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.2.3-GA FastPath) with ESMTP id AFX15255; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DFWEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.102) by dfweml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.9.108) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:16:57 -0700 Received: from SZXEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.95) by dfweml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:16:57 -0700 Received: from SZXEML526-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.48]) by szxeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.95]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 8 May 2012 01:16:52 +0800 From: Tina TSOU To: Christian Huitema Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Topic: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Index: AQHNK/QigIOOt9HVpEOEhan7onieOJa9XycAgAAO+4CAAILegIAAFTQAgACMR04= Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 17:16:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" , Dave Thaler X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:18:27 -0000 Sent from my iPhone On May 7, 2012, at 9:57 AM, "Christian Huitema" wro= te: >>> Link-Local Unicast Addresses 1111 1110 10 1/1024 >>> Site-Local Unicast Addresses 1111 1110 11 1/1024 >> ... >> So they define the /10 as the link local *prefix*, within which any *add= resses* have to fall into the /64. >> The rest of the /10 is unused but is still defined as link-local scope. >=20 > The specs may be reasonable, but they did cause confusion for addresses i= n FE80::/10 but out of FE80::/64. Some implementations appear to treat thes= e addresses as global, others as local, and yet others as "unexpected." The= re may be a way to use these addresses as an attack vectors against poor im= plementations. Given that, I would suggest to be very specific: >=20 > * FE80::/64 is used for configuring link local addresses; > * FE80::/10 is reserved by the IETF.=20 > * By default, implementations SHOULD discard packets received from addres= ses in FE80::/10 outside of FE80::/64 These statements are much clearer. >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maildanrl@googlemail.com Mon May 7 10:21:02 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B2021F8665 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gAhxrTtu3MQD for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E10021F8663 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbcwy7 with SMTP id wy7so6969960pbc.31 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 10:20:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=BQj8akyCld+YwaI948NAs835G2ogA2t/A1JfLHjaJvQ=; b=uY81a1lJplTJXuUnwDaeSzSmDTlCz7zA4kxFlAfSo0r/H8gWxxSYeBhFTtRlQQUTSz cnPvOWZQA+DOa1A5krYc3IB4Tcx4B3zIstHAZkqlkg4zabiugae1gmQPPK3Kij0srHh/ N1J10qp6A9uSZKbe6lpn1NwHBTQnqMWiOxYEWMbg8OydfSJZw9jKv0dtJEtZ0/JBwoS5 7DSzQFa2e+F/aDm9suHcohJPAVYCCVsxz7x9DAKhPRuRJfaHWm2VuLNvI2zyl0yhQ0Zr xvixXzRLKLqtDG436ER37KwsWy0Mx9eYZTXReLFzRK9FSuDhRWEaXu0nA9L1b462blRB FmYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.218.72 with SMTP id pe8mr8716970pbc.45.1336411257139; Mon, 07 May 2012 10:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.52.37 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:20:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <113B5F7B-646A-4012-9F10-A994BFE39E8B@virtualized.org> References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <113B5F7B-646A-4012-9F10-A994BFE39E8B@virtualized.org> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 19:20:57 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address From: Dan Luedtke To: David Conrad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: Christian Huitema , 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:21:03 -0000 Hi, On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:07 PM, David Conrad wrote: >> * FE80::/64 is used for configuring link local addresses; >> * FE80::/10 is reserved by the IETF. >> * By default, implementations SHOULD discard packets received from addresses in FE80::/10 outside of FE80::/64 > I personally believe the lesson we've learned from the Class E space is that this sort of reservation/direction is less useful than we might like. It might be common sense, but could you give me a hint why a implementation SHOULD not discard those packets? I really tried to craft a scenario, but none come to my mind so far. regards, Dan -- Dan Luedtke http://www.danrl.de From dthaler@microsoft.com Mon May 7 10:32:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E3121F8694 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:32:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.247, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSLpWX92IIS1 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (va3ehsobe010.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE7E21F8690 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail29-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.250) by VA3EHSOBE002.bigfish.com (10.7.40.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:30 +0000 Received: from mail29-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail29-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2412440021B; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:131.107.125.8; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -35 X-BigFish: VS-35(zz9371I542M1432N98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275dhz2fh2a8h668h839h944hd25h) Received-SPF: pass (mail29-va3: domain of microsoft.com designates 131.107.125.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.107.125.8; envelope-from=dthaler@microsoft.com; helo=TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ; icrosoft.com ; Received: from mail29-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail29-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1336411948157562_27459; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS015.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.245]) by mail29-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E443C0046; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (131.107.125.8) by VA3EHSMHS015.bigfish.com (10.7.99.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:27 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MLTW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.68) by TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.80.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.298.5; Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:25 +0000 Received: from TK5EX14MLTW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.39) by TK5EX14MLTW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.71.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.298.5; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:32:24 -0700 Received: from TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([169.254.5.160]) by TK5EX14MLTW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.71.39]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.005; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:32:24 -0700 From: Dave Thaler To: Dan Luedtke , David Conrad Subject: RE: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Topic: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address Thread-Index: AQHNK/QgGyZZTfkT90utwS/iqTPEg5a+WpwAgAAO+4CAAAunUIAAjGsAgAADo4CAAAOrgP//jVbg Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 17:32:23 +0000 Message-ID: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B70D9@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <113B5F7B-646A-4012-9F10-A994BFE39E8B@virtualized.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com Cc: Christian Huitema , 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:32:44 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Dan Luedtke > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:21 AM > To: David Conrad > Cc: Christian Huitema; 6man > Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local addr= ess >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:07 PM, David Conrad wrote: > >> * FE80::/64 is used for configuring link local addresses; > >> * FE80::/10 is reserved by the IETF. > >> * By default, implementations SHOULD discard packets received from > >> addresses in FE80::/10 outside of FE80::/64 > > I personally believe the lesson we've learned from the Class E space is= that > this sort of reservation/direction is less useful than we might like. >=20 > It might be common sense, but could you give me a hint why a > implementation SHOULD not discard those packets? I really tried to craft = a > scenario, but none come to my mind so far. MUST NOT would seem to match the intent of the original RFCs which say: " Routers must not forward any packets with link-local source or destination addresses to other links." -Dave From maildanrl@googlemail.com Mon May 7 10:40:29 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E06321F84EB for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6LyfRlYAzyBE for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f44.google.com (mail-pz0-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D64A21F8427 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dacx6 with SMTP id x6so6739113dac.31 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 10:40:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wqOHvoCaeOkHH08QDZ5GlOjr1SOAxghxcE2K9xVkw/c=; b=blgmkPmwbiql9+tloayElLFbl+leBcLFL2GLH1agYPfiGwksBcEfWm1UFIwUzmRwG5 Cxo75Ae4TLYDg3B1om7TOqaVwml48rlnLg7fPAnYHQwKwNAbgCX5alevTGGraQhL1fGH wSK6DjWmplVMvmVfwHWJ/4OWg+3uLv+lgaBWqn//LK0z5MsRrMLbWvd31loM7gh6olgC 1L2oKdTiWTKcAsOUM44OJIawcRlQm2ektVikYaRFSsBPsJ2ZVkpO4srPsUY5MfSwPrz2 2QxEpJCmi/kNWm6ikFhJ9mhRZOzdFdm6RFtNEhUhGgkFBco2LvtGeblb2acy0y2qtob3 Zauw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.200.74 with SMTP id jq10mr36879032pbc.66.1336412427987; Mon, 07 May 2012 10:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.52.37 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:40:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B70D9@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <113B5F7B-646A-4012-9F10-A994BFE39E8B@virtualized.org> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B70D9@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 19:40:27 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address From: Dan Luedtke To: Dave Thaler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:40:29 -0000 Hello, On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Dave Thaler wrote: > MUST NOT would seem to match the intent of the original > RFCs which say: > " =C2=A0 Routers must not forward any packets with link-local source or > =C2=A0 destination addresses to other links." Got it now, thanks :) Yes, weakening the requirements seems to be not useful in this case. I prefer MUST NOT, too. Regards, Dan --=20 Dan Luedtke http://www.danrl.de From farmer@umn.edu Mon May 7 13:48:39 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A683E21F849D for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 13:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxwHpfgK-+lS for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 13:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs-w.tc.umn.edu (vs-w.tc.umn.edu [134.84.135.88]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDD621F8496 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 13:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com (mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.213.171]) by vs-w.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:48:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.213.171] #+LO+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by mail-yx0-f171.google.com with SMTP id q11so6662993yen.16 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent:mime-version :to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=bOR8cmAeXIIoWIHRkQTnwYrDY7Cgw7dTRBcGCG+Lq1g=; b=Fh9CmRNLqIdO3BvLEjuCm6yyTUCPjKYbOtM0bVndlxqd3hMLCf7ApF4umc7MIQjZlV qmWw3UtdtQrnD/Vz5Zo9MgctJzihE9955KHLPD9TR0SiXVagyG4xVVdGqE8mmoBUmm9p aVnZkZUi99nEDivtdRqyDvRM/+I/OvpZNibdbaunFCaN7bHf+locXNS+p7eBqyYHH9IE kMWB62GgyD0h+VImqJpI3YG3WE5fcNIJcZ7udVd+B3No1MKKLrnkBKc7IPqX61fwvab9 oP+Phmmxs6630vyN4sqWzSvsZ1ljfvcQNFeKpFf1PFKE0r2krjI/R3pcn3CEk5GB3QoA +QEA== Received: by 10.42.141.72 with SMTP id n8mr421078icu.47.1336423707916; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x-128-101-233-224.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu ([2607:ea00:104:2000:223:6cff:fe94:288c]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l5sm2133igq.0.2012.05.07.13.48.26 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 May 2012 13:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA83518.4080201@umn.edu> Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:48:24 -0500 From: David Farmer Organization: University of Minnesota User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Luedtke Subject: Re: There are claims of ambiguity over what is a link-local address References: <20120506235919.66E7B206E4F1@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4FA77236.30109@gmail.com> <4FA77EC7.6000406@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B6560@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <113B5F7B-646A-4012-9F10-A994BFE39E8B@virtualized.org> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5B70D9@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm8hSi75O28FnGVo1l4AnMkyfET0PH9kRCbYZDsCwwczG2e/KbTFHMP70kSG3+XjjiqO/YM Cc: 6man , Dave Thaler X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 20:48:39 -0000 On 5/7/12 12:40 CDT, Dan Luedtke wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Dave Thaler wrote: >> MUST NOT would seem to match the intent of the original >> RFCs which say: >> " Routers must not forward any packets with link-local source or >> destination addresses to other links." > Got it now, thanks :) Yes, weakening the requirements seems to be not > useful in this case. > I prefer MUST NOT, too. "MUST NOT be forwarded" is not the same thing as "MUST be dropped". Everything in the Link-Local scope "MUST NOT be forwarded" to another interface. Everything in FF80::/10 is in the Link-Local Scope. FF80::/64 is currently used for Link-Local addressing, the reset of FF80::/10 is reserved. I believe the comment was that saying that the reserved space should be dropped is incorrect and will frustrate future use of the reserved portion of FF80::/10 if there is any. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== From tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com Mon May 7 19:22:40 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E938221F84F3; Mon, 7 May 2012 19:22:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.137, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZJfIWoZg7Pl8; Mon, 7 May 2012 19:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBBA21F84EB; Mon, 7 May 2012 19:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbgo11 with SMTP id go11so4430998lbb.31 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 19:22:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-antivirus:x-antivirus-status; bh=yl8sKSLcGo4QzOjiVFV6Rd49ZSo5iSFw9AOoQGgEllY=; b=mF1DOQce8Kb3XWHLeMnuXSb2Qj+v2Ry3Na58ekilgQFHnBsRkLTJoD22/MvkeXrZCe vnw6eZhxpgDkc1ef4NwvuTjyT07fcs5Btl+W8rYy2ionwwFFyLKbjzQxqDjaup4c78F4 jvIrhizdiBa30TshNiGmwtGoYGDTFBcr/MQKfpH7IcugtDVnGZ9QxIRh06ZXUEVPE3au VpFbbgtZQNXfBZ3bO5VM/pIVK3e89CSe/g7eskvgBM5LlXUS8Atpy+ax0nxITWWiMiBL 3fiBmEF6yUhNGantA7P33ivk1x1D7ft/Joe2fIWPlfLra6E9BQ4T40F0j1UpbMvWP2rk JLuw== Received: by 10.112.32.72 with SMTP id g8mr8187866lbi.43.1336443755881; Mon, 07 May 2012 19:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (dsl-207-112-91-137.tor.primus.ca. [207.112.91.137]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pb13sm20871471lab.16.2012.05.07.19.22.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 May 2012 19:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA8835D.6040607@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 22:22:21 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120507-1, 07/05/2012), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" , "mboned-chairs@ietf.org" , Brian Haberman , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 02:22:41 -0000 I'd like to respond to one of your points. Your overall thrust (preservation of the existing architure) is reasonable, but it is really useful operationally for nodes to be able to recognize IPv6 multicast addresses that contain embedded IPv4 multicast addresses. If the path taken by the signalling and, in the reverse direction, the multicast data crosses multiple points of transition between IPv4 and IPv6 or the reverse, the translation at each such transition point can be done independently, with no need to coordinate between the different translating nodes. That holds even across domain boundaries. If a mapping table is used instead, the same table has to be provisioned at each translating node. On 05/05/2012 10:12 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: ... > > Or better yet, just keep a mapping table in the translator that maps > the IPv4 multicast group to an IPv6 multicast group ID? That > wouldn't require any changes in the IPv6 multicast address. If the > purpose of these boxes is to do translation, then this should be > possible, like is done with other forms of Network Address > Translation (NAT). This would also mean that you wouldn't need > anything close to 2^^32 multicast groups as I suspect the number that > will be used in practice will be much smaller. > > My overall conclusion is that I don't see the need for any changes to > the IPv6 addressing architecture to support this application. > > Bob > > ... From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com Mon May 7 20:05:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED50B21F85E3; Mon, 7 May 2012 20:05:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7eHympsfxa4; Mon, 7 May 2012 20:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B8521F84D9; Mon, 7 May 2012 20:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so4461700lag.31 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 20:05:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HfHtQuYzDyIY2rntkyUJxZ/bQMjLn2ShVFODqaOCOcQ=; b=0//heNpENSoXQWgzPv/2MLVm5kOB4sv7zbkQFpLyHhLLKk9Kffk/raNwA6IlboOdal 5rAqwQsuEW15Yo4YCdtWh1RrU5CgEwClHqC8wWbjB1XV9JNL3GUDp4gb1aZBV3Dt/auv o4RVIaF4PuH4MaXppboCsLBMxHokPMMUPrDcL+XkSHao+PX4+QY1Oql1MA0HlYEiLHk2 WBuVXk/P7+LKuJerugy87srXfMdH+ziZj1RjLOLfkZD2tCahqEYVrPYzGQ8byA0Iz0a5 cfXwXXADbmAL0pRUfip3XQH14Q0T63XsQzYK2JGWRv2/sXQ3nK9rd9DOX7J+LPGo61w/ KrNg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.111.41 with SMTP id if9mr16093583lab.19.1336446325435; Mon, 07 May 2012 20:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.56.13 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2012 20:05:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E299468D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 23:05:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format From: Marshall Eubanks To: Bob Hinden Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" , "mboned-chairs@ietf.org" , Brian Haberman , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 03:05:28 -0000 Dear Bob, et al.; On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Med, > > On May 4, 2012, at 5:50 AM, wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Br= ian suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33= (SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approach= in an early version of the document but it has been abandoned because of c= omments we received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our desi= gn choice in: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format= -01#appendix-A.2. >> >> We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following: >> >> (1) Should we maintain the current design choice >> (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian? >> >> FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: http://www.iet= f.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html. >> The latest version of the draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 > > [personal hat on and co-author of RFC 4291] > > I reviewed the draft and read through the thread you referred to. > > I don't think the approach defined in this draft is needed nor the result= ing complexity it proposes adding to the IPv6 Address Architecture. =A0Inst= ead of what is proposed one could reserve a block of group ids (33 or 33 bi= ts worth) and eliminate all of the type bits at the front. > > Or better yet, just keep a mapping table in the translator that maps the = IPv4 multicast group to an IPv6 multicast group ID? =A0That wouldn't requir= e any changes in the IPv6 multicast address. =A0If the purpose of these box= es is to do translation, then this should be possible, like is done with ot= her forms of Network Address Translation (NAT). =A0 This would also mean th= at you wouldn't need anything close to 2^^32 multicast groups as I suspect = the number that will be used in practice will be much smaller. > Here is a potential way to do this that I have not seen discussed yet for this. If it has been, my apologies and a pointer to the discussion would be appreciated. If DNS can be used to do "SSM Mapping" for IGMPv2 (i.e., use the group address to create a domain name and use that to come up with an appropriate Source address using reverse DNS lookup - see http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/ios/12_3t/12_3t2/feature/guide/gtssmma.html http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/en_US/junos10.3/topics/example/multicast-ss= m-mapping.html ), then I don't see why the same trick can't be applied for IPv4 <-> IPv6 translation mappings. This seems like the sort of thing that could be implemented very quickly, and does away with the need for mapping tables. Regardless of how is it is done, I see no reason to and would be against reserving the 4th (last) Flag in the 4291 multicast address format for this purpose. Regards Marshall > My overall conclusion is that I don't see the need for any changes to the= IPv6 addressing architecture to support this application. > > Bob > > >> >> Your help is appreciated. >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Tue May 8 00:29:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088C521F85D7 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 00:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.115, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J23PIDHF7RXK for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 00:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.ericsson.se (mailgw1.ericsson.se [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEC221F848B for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 00:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-b7b76ae0000063d8-5d-4fa8cb45ad80 Received: from esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mailgw1.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 80.6B.25560.54BC8AF4; Tue, 8 May 2012 09:29:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0256.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Tue, 8 May 2012 09:29:09 +0200 Message-ID: <4FA8CB45.1020309@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 09:29:09 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: References: <036E1A9D-88D9-4B1B-A7B1-FF4A624C5E13@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <036E1A9D-88D9-4B1B-A7B1-FF4A624C5E13@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "draft-ietf-6man-udpchecksums@tools.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org Mailing List" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 07:29:12 -0000 Hi, I know the WG last call has closed. But I reviewed it anyway and I have found some nits and things which the WG chairs anyway will stumble on in their ID checklist processing of the document. I also have some more substantial comments on how this is written. I am sorry that I am late, but I simple missed the WG last call. I do support this document going forward but I do think it needs to be updated prior to submission to the AD. 1) Abstract contains bracketed references. I would suggest replacing RFC2460[RFC2460] with the documents title and RFC number without brackets. 2) Document header does not contain "Updates:RFC2460" 3) Section 1, " RFC 2460[RFC2460], " I think this should be "Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification [RFC2460]," 4. Section 5 "However, some protocols, such as lightweight tunneling protocols that use UDP as a tunnel encapsulation, MAY omit computing the UDP checksum of the encapsulating UDP header and set it to zero, subject to the constraints described in [I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero]." I am a bit worried about making [I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero] part of the specification text. Especially something that I at least consider being normative definition of constraints. Those I think should be part of this document. I think the pointers earlier in the document is sufficient to establish that part of the inclusion of the constraints in this document are based on whats in our document. 5. Section 6. "It is now 2011." Can the authors confirm if there has been no more analysis and maybe indicate the current year. In general when I read this document it reads to much like a discussion paper rather than a normative specification. I think it is late in the process and do not require any changes now. However, I have raised this earlier (on the 00 wg version) and the authors have not addressed this. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From arifumi@nttv6.net Tue May 8 05:01:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5546121F84FF for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 05:01:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 591RG+Q1Pbqh for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 05:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leo.nttv6.net (leo.nttv6.net [192.47.162.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64AC321F84D1 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 05:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]) by leo.nttv6.net (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q48C0Wn4038370; Tue, 8 May 2012 21:00:32 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Subject: Re: 3484bis and privacy addresses Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Arifumi Matsumoto In-Reply-To: <4FA4CB7A.4060103@globis.net> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 20:59:14 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4F716D5C.40402@innovationslab.net> <4F726C9E.50107@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5054C1@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F83D8D0.5030402@gmail.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B508719@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F858C32.6060709@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B50CBC2@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F87D4EA.4040801@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B513879@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4F8935C7.6020602@globis.net> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5159E0@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <9B57C850BB53634CACEC56EF4853FF653B5AF1C5@TK5EX14MBXW605.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4FA4CB7A.4060103@globis.net> To: Ray Hunter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" , Dave Thaler X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 12:01:27 -0000 Dave and Ray, thanks for putting together regarding these points. I'll compile these into the revision of DHCP option draft soon. Thanks ! On 2012/05/05, at 15:40, Ray Hunter wrote: > ACK. Thanks. >=20 > Dave Thaler wrote: >> I wrote in response to Ray Hunter: >>> I take your comment as asking for a summary table in rfc 3484bis of >>> system-wide config options. That could be done as a purely = editorial >>> change, although if there's only 1 thing in the table it's less = interesting. >>> But if others in the WG think this would be helpful, then yes we can = do that. >>=20 >> Turns out there were already 2 things so I've done this in -03. >>=20 >> OLD: >> This specification optionally allows for the possibility of >> administrative configuration of policy (e.g., via manual >> configuration or a DHCP option such as that proposed in >> [I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt]) that can override the default >> behavior of the algorithms. The policy override takes the form = of a >> configurable table that specifies precedence values and = preferred >> source prefixes for destination prefixes. If an implementation = is >> not configurable, or if an implementation has not been = configured, >> then the default policy table specified in this document SHOULD = be >> used. >>=20 >> NEW: >> This specification optionally allows for the possibility of >> administrative configuration of policy (e.g., via manual >> configuration or a DHCP option such as that proposed in >> [I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt]) that can override the default >> behavior of the algorithms. The policy override consists of the >> following set of state, which SHOULD be configurable: >>=20 >> o Policy Table (Section 2.1): a table that specifies precedence >> values and preferred source prefixes for destination = prefixes. >> o Automatic Row Additions flag (Section 2.1): a flag that = specifies >> whether the implementation may automatically add = site-specific >> rows for certain types of addresses. >> o Privacy Preference flag (Section 5): a flag that specifies = whether >> temporary source addresses or stable source addresses are >> preferred by default, when both types exist. >>=20 >> This is purely an editorial change. The rest of Ray's comments = apply >> to I-D.ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, which is already informatively >> referenced in the above text. >>=20 >> -Dave >>=20 >>=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Arifumi Matsumoto NGN System Architecture Project NTT Service Integration Laboratories E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net TEL +81-422-59-3334 FAX +81-422-59-6364 From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Tue May 8 07:26:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C460121F847B for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.322 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.322 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.157, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFz+LyQ78JzZ for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD7121F8473 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so704057eek.31 for ; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:26:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=tcyxtLDWwq880YIW5dCWvRHCXeDTWKtVoAR3w1ESh6Y=; b=FhcdcBmFMqaOFDJejh2oTohZSILYQMrhpqVbrTJV8zPA8yeNASRonKXEkmeH71nlTQ +qaYffXEtdvggxgmzuhJvROA43mfvpuMcbon6pAmyS9JSgF8KAsg3q0pTx29emyPY9Og aZuFh0Aobv1CeY2y8SlTAd4jqawLlQEyeLFF2nmoXq2lLsBgr7SvJpGYQSEOf3an9gYx 4Mu+NuDQtaNQ9JAEqHISYzcsoTsNy58LAlE947ivwho4VaLKy5ZyXVEcaXOBTknyLV42 4rc9AbrM0dYA95URg+7TKPbCKkhLrDgQlHi9iKNHef1CpyerJ6W1cHXi1tbDxhrWrd7K TTyA== Received: by 10.213.26.74 with SMTP id d10mr2947102ebc.89.1336487184004; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.232.110.88] (c088.al.cl.cam.ac.uk. [128.232.110.88]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n52sm5799689eeh.9.2012.05.08.07.26.22 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 May 2012 07:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA92D0C.3070006@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 15:26:20 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?T2xlIFRyw7hhbg==?= Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <81B7AF4C-95E9-43C1-A344-70F92E04CF35@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <81B7AF4C-95E9-43C1-A344-70F92E04CF35@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:26:25 -0000 On 2012-05-04 11:39, Ole Tr=C3=B8an wrote: >> 1) Leave the problem unsolved. >> >> This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to be >> performed using ping or ping6 >> >> ping fe80::a%en1 >> >> Advantage: works today. >> >> Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. >> >> 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: >> >> http://[fe80::a%25en1] >> >> Advantage: allows use of browser. >> Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. >=20 > if we went with option 2; considering that most browsers accept other i= nputs than URIs, > could the UI input be as today (fe80::a%en1) and the URI representation= as (fe80::a%25en1)? As far as I can tell, current browsers have dropped this, even if Kerry still uses it in an ancient Firefox. IMHO this is not a viable option for the browser folk. > presumably also with other characters in the interface name escaped. > e.g. if I input "interface Dot11Radio0/0/0" in Chrome's address bar I g= et > "interface+Dot11Radio0%2F0%2F0" There seems to be no way out of that whatever we do. Brian >=20 > cheers, > Ole >=20 >=20 From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Tue May 8 07:33:13 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9C121F8547 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:33:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s4WyZhJdUO8S for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF08B21F84FF for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so709272eek.31 for ; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:33:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NDcRXf2Z0ibdxurhtHOrVS80UfDc1ToPR0nlxayawV4=; b=gOOLBklDnXCiHI73svGDx/LOs66QZH2Frnt//GHURQ4xZNz0v3hFMsakOui0iFuSOO kxCFbgNvEClVG5ikDRdgR2/4GItpGHKjFO/fgpy2hFru67Y7BXEJND6Mv56YoXLy0KIT RTSNGyC7IsmriiLaITM5p5KrqlfAVH8KxcczwZPqk2a79LejsqU1mVN9UL3K7ILVY6oB Qv5DiBQhwNxRosQ5lryUdPkXfEy5PosLUdWwK8VuOG1koz/u+zmFNaOwRv3XWCRlvhDT NM0fZn+Vn5HpWOpY23smwdK53oi6Ii9p6cMBpn+HUNBF9kZbGUdKMDDkUAkx+L2iu9Qv JQUQ== Received: by 10.213.33.193 with SMTP id i1mr1766325ebd.45.1336487591876; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.232.110.88] (c088.al.cl.cam.ac.uk. [128.232.110.88]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f16sm72552098eec.2.2012.05.08.07.33.09 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 May 2012 07:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 15:33:07 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 6man Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:33:13 -0000 I'm not exactly seeing overwhelming consensus, but the loudest virtual hum was for http://[fe80::a-en1] Advantage: allows use of browser. Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. There was a suggestion to encourage a fix to ping (and traceroute?) to allow the "-" separator, and we must note that in any case, strange characters in the interface ID will always have to be %-encoded. Regards Brian On 2012-04-29 08:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > In the IETF 83 discussion of draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-00, > there was no clear consensus on the approach to pursue. In fact, > almost the same discussion occurred around draft-fenner-literal-zone > several years ago, but at that time the topic was simply dropped. > > This note summarises the main options. As a reminder, the problem to > be solved is how to tell a browser which interface to use when sending > packets to a literal link-local address. The reason for doing this is > purely for diagnostic purposes, since the Zone ID that identifies an > interface has no significance outside the sending host. For more details, > see the two drafts mentioned above. > > What we have today: link local address with no Zone ID > http://[fe80::a] > > The user cannot select the outgoing interface if there is more than one. > > The obvious solution would be to use the RFC4007 syntax (for an > example Zone ID of en1): > > http://[fe80::a%en1] > > However, this is impossible because % is *always* an escape character in > URI syntax [RFC3986]. There is no chance of the URI community accepting > such a hack to the syntax, so it isn't an option for us. > > The available options are therefore > > 1) Leave the problem unsolved. > > This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to be > performed using ping or ping6 > > ping fe80::a%en1 > > Advantage: works today. > > Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. > > 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: > > http://[fe80::a%25en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > 3) With alternative separator such as _ > > http://[fe80::a_en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > 4) With the "IPvFuture" syntax left open in RFC 3986: > > http://[v6.fe80::a_en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: ugly and redundant, doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > Thus, the WG has to choose between options 1), 2), 3) and 4). > > Opinions welcome! > > Brian Carpenter > From ichiroumakino@gmail.com Tue May 8 07:35:42 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A341621F84D0 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:35:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.005 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.160, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GRLE4odbeKhv for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C9F21F84E4 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhj6 with SMTP id hj6so622144wib.13 for ; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:35:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=Cc6oImcw5u3MY4qLacfDNj77ja+3m7Tinp2kmN0jBjk=; b=IisdioW4vWBpEnM14shITcaMmoQOm2VGWYv+7JcPBHL09tnB9aW4ipoxk+MnQk7aYT 4ehlB2YnW+SE+zbGIQwkinGb7iloCF8optfYVOfJu9zFISvnbUz6lP5VVqqJiasHX+a9 Azj8HguDRTgkEGOuSrhOVnFoN9oFti+LKG7nmi4bGPPSYA8NsK2e95WrnR5ywsbKZTY5 nXpud3Z8oNbOz7AMQiRiOFdFZw0tgD6hAjEaIst4IVFQ29Jl0P+cMIQd1nmN3M2oSmc2 86Qq+Dq4RtPvPaHFPJvgPuCsS3dEO5q2SyPJga4xnodS+XDIStUVR7ALYbYkXAwYeOgW t9dg== Received: by 10.180.101.136 with SMTP id fg8mr45439658wib.4.1336487735742; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-lys02-vla252-10-147-117-91.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ex2sm46390898wib.8.2012.05.08.07.35.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 May 2012 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ole Troan Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ole_Tr=F8an?= In-Reply-To: <4FA92D0C.3070006@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:35:32 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7FBFE026-878F-4635-B3AB-D08685595C26@employees.org> References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <81B7AF4C-95E9-43C1-A344-70F92E04CF35@employees.org> <4FA92D0C.3070006@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:35:43 -0000 >>> 1) Leave the problem unsolved. >>>=20 >>> This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to = be >>> performed using ping or ping6 >>>=20 >>> ping fe80::a%en1 >>>=20 >>> Advantage: works today. >>>=20 >>> Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. >>>=20 >>> 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: >>>=20 >>> http://[fe80::a%25en1] >>>=20 >>> Advantage: allows use of browser. >>> Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and = paste. >>=20 >> if we went with option 2; considering that most browsers accept other = inputs than URIs, >> could the UI input be as today (fe80::a%en1) and the URI = representation as (fe80::a%25en1)? >=20 > As far as I can tell, current browsers have dropped this, even if > Kerry still uses it in an ancient Firefox. IMHO this is not a viable > option for the browser folk. perhaps I'm missing something, but this is what on the bleeding edge = Chrome does too. >> presumably also with other characters in the interface name escaped. >> e.g. if I input "interface Dot11Radio0/0/0" in Chrome's address bar I = get >> "interface+Dot11Radio0%2F0%2F0" >=20 > There seems to be no way out of that whatever we do. if the string has to be escaped regardless, and that UI's may handle = this for the end user, what would be the reason to not go with an = escaped '%' (%25)? cheers, Ole From cabo@tzi.org Tue May 8 07:41:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4230621F84DA for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.203, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jHQMYO+2kqQW for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB3221F84D6 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:41:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q48EfkHd009160; Tue, 8 May 2012 16:41:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (reingewinn.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.123]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE8C9E61; Tue, 8 May 2012 16:41:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 16:41:44 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:41:56 -0000 On May 8, 2012, at 16:33, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > http://[fe80::a-en1] Of the proposals that require changing RFC 3986, this is clearly the = best one. (My personal favorite is still hijacking IPvFuture, as in = http://[v6.fe80::a-en1], but I can understand when people don't like = that.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Tue May 8 07:42:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FC421F85AD for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:42:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BB5Hie5K-xDi for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56F221F8542 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so716507eek.31 for ; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:42:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+kl60BOaXLRNfnexeEJQqIGHgqAIE7rqAtHIxlCxcJQ=; b=Fj0MiiISVSt8V2MoCsKQ6GWgAY28ouO/0RsWcQKCbTw4ywwrgU39ZIW+8RroS44mKS jyVtGKHITLEQLW4Ec/NxEoAaEuEogNI1NEA8iIe3zqXnmeijp/qOOjCrf20KwabfVzxt nuzBPo2uAV83J/K2gJOIqqZPNOAuXeMy+XXTRjeLMQaxDn7HuteWXoGsfABJpeUXiCvh JkncLBYJ4naxO3X+Oi4OkKeYT3anRKDTc93lnEIuxSusG8g9greHV5tO24+P+ogdnUkF ehZdaqpSRq8vK16aQW0g8r5jFA8i6Q4mXLzm0EqlvsdglrL3BRcUtXroX+1/QN4Nowm4 GdKQ== Received: by 10.213.22.212 with SMTP id o20mr900058ebb.67.1336488159015; Tue, 08 May 2012 07:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.232.110.88] (c088.al.cl.cam.ac.uk. [128.232.110.88]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f16sm72671530eec.2.2012.05.08.07.42.36 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 May 2012 07:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA930DB.6040705@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 15:42:35 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?T2xlIFRyw7hhbg==?= Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <81B7AF4C-95E9-43C1-A344-70F92E04CF35@employees.org> <4FA92D0C.3070006@gmail.com> <7FBFE026-878F-4635-B3AB-D08685595C26@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <7FBFE026-878F-4635-B3AB-D08685595C26@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:42:41 -0000 On 2012-05-08 15:35, Ole Tr=C3=B8an wrote: >>>> 1) Leave the problem unsolved. >>>> >>>> This would mean that per-interface diagnostics would still have to b= e >>>> performed using ping or ping6 >>>> >>>> ping fe80::a%en1 >>>> >>>> Advantage: works today. >>>> >>>> Disadvantage: less convenient than using a browswer. >>>> >>>> 2) Escaping the escape character as allowed by RFC 3986: >>>> >>>> http://[fe80::a%25en1] >>>> >>>> Advantage: allows use of browser. >>>> Disadvantage: ugly and confusing, doesn't allow simple cut and paste= =2E >>> if we went with option 2; considering that most browsers accept other= inputs than URIs, >>> could the UI input be as today (fe80::a%en1) and the URI representati= on as (fe80::a%25en1)? >> As far as I can tell, current browsers have dropped this, even if >> Kerry still uses it in an ancient Firefox. IMHO this is not a viable >> option for the browser folk. >=20 > perhaps I'm missing something, but this is what on the bleeding edge Ch= rome does too. I suppose it depends on the religious convictions of the people who write the URI parsers. The only clean solution is to get what we want into the formal syntax, and there I feel no hope whatever. >=20 >>> presumably also with other characters in the interface name escaped. >>> e.g. if I input "interface Dot11Radio0/0/0" in Chrome's address bar I= get >>> "interface+Dot11Radio0%2F0%2F0" >> There seems to be no way out of that whatever we do. >=20 > if the string has to be escaped regardless, and that UI's may handle th= is for the end user, what would be the reason to not go with an escaped '= %' (%25)? Well, I'm not sure the UIs can be relied on for that. As above, it depends whether the parsers are strict or sloppy about following the ABNF. Brian From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Tue May 8 10:34:59 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F5821F84CE for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nf21YVEWLcqI for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D477421F84D6 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.48]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3917F20C57; Tue, 8 May 2012 19:34:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45iUkWfNUj-Y; Tue, 8 May 2012 19:34:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511CB20C19; Tue, 8 May 2012 19:34:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id B6BBD1EEEE53; Tue, 8 May 2012 19:34:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 19:34:53 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Message-ID: <20120508173453.GA59571@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Brian E Carpenter , 6man References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 17:34:59 -0000 On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 03:33:07PM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I'm not exactly seeing overwhelming consensus, but the loudest > virtual hum was for > > http://[fe80::a-en1] > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > There was a suggestion to encourage a fix to ping (and traceroute?) to > allow the "-" separator, and we must note that in any case, strange > characters in the interface ID will always have to be %-encoded. I am concerned that the long-term result of this might be that we will have to live with both % and - used as separators in various tools and interfaces and that this might at the end even cause changes to other tools and specifications that currently are just fine with using % as a separator. Perhaps I am overly anxious but only future will tell. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From ichiroumakino@gmail.com Tue May 8 10:42:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9646A21F84BD for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RuaQX9f2i-Ff for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C814621F84B3 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhn19 with SMTP id hn19so396918wib.13 for ; Tue, 08 May 2012 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=r3OWtsJqWzK8VuO4AIOs5vVE+t5WWpwiGyNrRYftgwY=; b=i8sjy4M0DmYmzl8134Tl55ju6JLYQgULo523X850dj6KHhMECcLXgT1zb0+/0f9ndd GrjArR/N+Rc7aosgaCT7FSiLZwonGQL4Bicu06G+wU1eqYcvDywDHkPBHJqeRxLL5LMH yjkZEgDjL5phpwLcvPKam30mY4ZoZZDLroD3/O8CKB5Cbcn8jlEKPYF6Ees3SC+Jn3Gr o139HO0Vhq4+R7JabdA91Yl2CeU/zw4De84yhdWZkEI0CDC9TvJe0a0/gEOmxfGvXDLr 6+lGeIqf8r21rpKRfIJtUHxJ5kIxQ8n1zCyreHAfY95r4EOiJ1xRZYo22YEn+GG4JUtq Gb9A== Received: by 10.180.77.4 with SMTP id o4mr17278966wiw.17.1336498942015; Tue, 08 May 2012 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-10-61-100-46.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j3sm47877424wiw.1.2012.05.08.10.42.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 08 May 2012 10:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ole Troan Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ole_Tr=F8an?= In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 19:42:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> References: To: IPv6 WG Mailing List , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org> X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 17:42:23 -0000 All, Based on the feedback received, the 6man chairs believe there is = consensus for 6MAN to work on creating a new type of IPv6 interface identifiers, as described in draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses-01. The discussion brought up some issues that we will work with the author = to resolve, in particular: - The current draft is written to not allow the IETF to create = derivative works. This is incompatible with the IETF standards process. See section 4 of http://www.ietf.org/id-info/1id-guidelines.txt - The draft should not replace modified EUI-64 IIDs. It intents to = provide an alternative to IEEE MAC based modified EUI-64 IIDs. The draft should not update RFC4191 and RFC4862 =20 - The proposed mechanism has merit separately from the perceived = "security" benefits, because it creates modified EUI-64 Internet Identifiers that are not = IEEE Mac based and eliminates any concern about host tracking based on the IEEE MAC = addresses. =20 We will instruct the author to post the next revision as an 6MAN = document. Regards, Bob Hinden and Ole Troan From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Wed May 9 06:09:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B63721F858E; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:09:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.159, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGfRz4mzDl+l; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFFD21F8532; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5591622C78E; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:09:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from puexch31.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.29]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 37E1935C05A; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:09:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.233.200.25]) by puexch31.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.29]) with mapi; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:09:26 +0200 From: To: Carsten Bormann , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:09:25 +0200 Subject: RE: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: Ac0ryvGBItecPVlyRGu344fhCanxhwCEpA8A Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.6.1.2065439, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.5.9.121229 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 May 2012 06:12:45 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:09:32 -0000 Dear Carsten, Thank you for the review.=20 Please see inline. Cheers, Med=20 >-----Message d'origine----- >De : Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]=20 >Envoy=E9 : dimanche 6 mai 2012 22:58 >=C0 :=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.or >g; apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols >Cc : The IESG; 6man@ietf.org; mboned@ietf.org >Objet : APPSDIR review of=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 > >I have been selected as the Applications Area Directorate reviewer for >this draft (for background on appsdir, please see >http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaD >irectorate >). > >Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments >you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd >or AD before posting a new version of the draft. > >Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >--------------------------------- > >Document: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 >Title: IPv4-Embedded IPv6 Multicast Address Format >Reviewer: Carsten Bormann >Review Date: 2012-05-06 >IETF Last Call Date: 2012-04-19 > >** Summary: This draft is NOT ready for publication as a Proposed >Standard and should be revised before publication. > >The document appears as an attempt to extend the reasoning of RFC 6052 >to multicast IPv4 addresses. However, while unicast IPv4 addresses >and their IPv6 counterparts are assigned as part of network >configuration, multicast addresses are decided upon by applications. >The document is very short on information how an application should >decide when to make use of the newly defined formats. It is therefore >also hard to understand why these formats are needed in the first >place. There appears to be a transition model in the minds of the >authors that makes this necessary or practical, and this information >must be made part of the document for it to be useful. Med: There are plenty of applications using this address format: e.g., [I-D= .ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast], [I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast], [I-D.= ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option], [I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framework= ], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-netext-nat64-pmip], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-mext-nat6= 4-dsmip], etc. We had pointers to some of those drafts in earlier versions = of the document but we removed them and adopted the same approach as RFC605= 2: only the address format is defined while the usage is defined in compani= on documents. More details are also documented here: http://tools.ietf.org/= html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast-address-format-03#appendix-A.1 and= http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast-address-for= mat-03#appendix-A.2.=20 There is also a problem statement, available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-jaclee-behave-v4v6-mcast-ps-03 which can be cited in the introductio= n.=20 > >** Major Issues: > >To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements >need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this >document is in use. What for? More generally, which entities need to >interoperate based on a common understanding of this format? Med: Elements which make use of the address format are deployment-specific;= this can be a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, IGMP/MLD I= nterworking function. We didn't quoted these interworking functions because= this is deployment-specific. Do you think your issue can be solved if we a= dd a pointer to one of the solutions documented listed above? =20 > >Of the various fields left "configurable according to local policies >of the entity managing the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection Function", which >are important for applications? How do they know these policies? Med: The content of this filed is left configurable. Its value will depend = on the policies enforced by the administrative entity. Examples of these po= licies are: embedded-RF, use unicast-based prefix, etc. Applications are no= t aware of these policies since a prefix will (likely /96) will be provisio= ned (see Section 6). If >that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and >"SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this >information available to applications? I don't think this can be a >standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol >for disseminating this information. Med: The provisioning of the ASM_PREFIX64 and the SSM_PREFIX is orthogonal = to the address format itself. Various methods can be used but this is out o= f scope of the document. We can add a pointer to http://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option-00 as a provisioning example. = Would you be fine with adding such reference? What is an implementation >supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it is governed >by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed >prefixes disseminated to the implementation? Med: This is an issue for the provisioning method and not for the specifica= tion of the address format itself. > >This document needs editorial attention. I will abstain from trying >to make detailed corrections, as this would become tedious quickly. >While much of this work could be done by the RFC editor, some of the >editorial decisions will enter e.g. IANA registries, so the technical >terms need to be decided now. More importantly, understanding this >document during its development process (including mine as a reviewer) >may be hampered by its editorial shortcomings. > >** Minor Issues: > >My first editorial problem is with the title. This address format is >not embedded in IPv4, as the title wants to make us believe. Instead, >it is talking about an multicast address format for IPv6 that embeds >an IPv4 multicast address. (While this misleading naming repeats the >same mistake that has been made in RFC 6052, at least there it is not >part of the title.) Med: Could you please suggest a better title?=20 > >3 > >The role of 64IX is very unclear. My conjecture is that this draft is >defining the address format for the case M=3D1 only (i.e., address[16] =3D >1). No text defines what happens for M=3D0, so the assumption appears >to be that RFC 4291 applies unchanged in this case. If this >conjecture is correct, this needs to be made much clearer. Med: The current text says: "When "M-bit" is set to 1, it indicates that a = multicast IPv4 address is embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the multicast IPv6 address.". I can add: "When "M-bit" is set to 0, the address for= mat follows [RFC4291].". Would this be fine with you?=20 > >What is "r"? Define. Med: This means "reserved". The text says: "All the remaining bits are rese= rved and MUST be set to 0.". Do you think the text should be clarified further?=20 > >4 > >Why is 64IX moving around here? >(The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].) >How does one find out which of the two positions of the M bit to use? Med: Once the prefix is configured to a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interwor= king function, the question of the location of the M-bit is not relevant an= ymore. If both ASM and SSM modes are supported, two prefixes will be used.= =20 > >. o sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros. >How does an application find out when to choose a different one? Med: Applications are provisioned with the full prefix; see Section 6. > >. 232.0.0.1-232.0.0.255 range is being >. reserved to IANA. >Who is making this reservation? ("is being reserved" means the >resernation is going on right now, but I don't find anything in 9.) Med: We removed that sentence as a result of a comment I received from SM (= see mboned archives). > >7 > >7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052 is in use. >If this is true, this should be clearly stated. More specifically, >the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange >information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the same RFC 6052 >parameters in effect. How is that ensured? Med: This is a generic issue for RFC6052. We can document the issue if it i= s specific to the multicast context.=20 > >** Nits: > >10 -- s/defined/defines/ Med: Fixed. Thanks. > >(And many more, see above.) > >= From wwwrun@rfc-editor.org Wed May 9 06:13:57 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE00121F85D2 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:13:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.213, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id flyJnywRV2qP for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890FA21F855D for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 69566B1E004; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:11:40 -0700 (PDT) To: kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp, kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com, rdroms.ietf@gmail.com, brian@innovationslab.net, bob.hinden@gmail.com, otroan@employees.org Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5952 (3218) From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20120509131140.69566B1E004@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 06:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ipv6@ietf.org, rodas@rocketmail.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:13:58 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952, "A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=3218 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Rodrigo Curado Section: 3.1.4 Original Text ------------- Network diagrams and blueprints often show what IP addresses are assigned to a system devices. Corrected Text -------------- Network diagrams and blueprints often show which IP addresses are assigned to which systems devices. Notes ----- Improved grammar and correction to mismatch between singular and plural usage. Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07) -------------------------------------- Title : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation Publication Date : August 2010 Author(s) : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : IPv6 Maintenance Area : Internet Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From wwwrun@rfc-editor.org Wed May 9 06:32:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A574F21F84B6 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a9Pfj2njU0+2 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31CA621F8471 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 282DFB1E004; Wed, 9 May 2012 06:30:17 -0700 (PDT) To: kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp, kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com, rdroms.ietf@gmail.com, brian@innovationslab.net, bob.hinden@gmail.com, otroan@employees.org Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5952 (3219) From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20120509133017.282DFB1E004@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 06:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ipv6@ietf.org, rodas@rocketmail.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:32:34 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952, "A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=3219 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Rodrigo Curado Section: 3.1.4 Original Text ------------- In times of trouble shooting there may be a need to search Corrected Text -------------- In times of troubleshooting there may be a need to search Notes ----- "troubleshooting" should be written as one word Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07) -------------------------------------- Title : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation Publication Date : August 2010 Author(s) : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : IPv6 Maintenance Area : Internet Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From cabo@tzi.org Wed May 9 11:20:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CACC11E80B4; Wed, 9 May 2012 11:20:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16U3zLxAEXGt; Wed, 9 May 2012 11:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F3811E80AB; Wed, 9 May 2012 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q49IKWVh020033; Wed, 9 May 2012 20:20:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p548992D9.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.146.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2EB35C1; Wed, 9 May 2012 20:20:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 20:20:35 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:18:57 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 18:20:44 -0000 Hi Med, thanks for looking into my review. Let me take this opportunity to = reiterate that, while I wrote this review for the Applications Area = Directorate, it is not intended to bear more weight than any other = comment submitted by an individual during a Last Call. > Med: There are plenty of applications using this address format: e.g., = [I-D.ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast], = [I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast], = [I-D.ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option], = [I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framework], = [I-D.sarikaya-behave-netext-nat64-pmip], = [I-D.sarikaya-behave-mext-nat64-dsmip], etc. We had pointers to some of = those drafts in earlier versions of the document but we removed them and = adopted the same approach as RFC6052: only the address format is defined = while the usage is defined in companion documents. The problem with this is that you now have a bit allocation without any = semantics. What is different, then, from any other way to allocate multicast = addresses? If you want this part of the address space to have some specific = semantics, you have to give it some. > More details are also documented here: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast-address-for= mat-03#appendix-A.1 and = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast-address-for= mat-03#appendix-A.2.=20 >=20 > There is also a problem statement, available at: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jaclee-behave-v4v6-mcast-ps-03 which = can be cited in the introduction.=20 I do believe that there needs to be some indication in the document. Maybe some of the material from the problem statement can be put into an = appendix. BTW, what is the plan with the problem statement document? Was this too = contentious to make it a WG document? >> ** Major Issues: >>=20 >> To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements >> need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this >> document is in use. What for? More generally, which entities need = to >> interoperate based on a common understanding of this format? >=20 > Med: Elements which make use of the address format are = deployment-specific; this can be a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM = interworking function, IGMP/MLD Interworking function. We didn't quoted = these interworking functions because this is deployment-specific. Do you = think your issue can be solved if we add a pointer to one of the = solutions documented listed above? So the idea is that this is a common format that can be used by any = number of transition mechanisms? How do you avoid the mechanisms getting confused (e.g., one mechanism = allocating an address that is then processed incorrectly by a network = element that is using another mechanism)? Yes, I think standardizing this document in a cluster with one or more = transition mechanism documents and adding mutual references would be the = best way to handle this. As long as the question above has a good = answer... >> Of the various fields left "configurable according to local policies >> of the entity managing the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection Function", which >> are important for applications? How do they know these policies? >=20 > Med: The content of this filed is left configurable. Its value will = depend on the policies enforced by the administrative entity. Examples = of these policies are: embedded-RF, use unicast-based prefix, etc. = Applications are not aware of these policies since a prefix will (likely = /96) will be provisioned (see Section 6). >=20 > If >> that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and >> "SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this >> information available to applications? I don't think this can be a >> standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol >> for disseminating this information. >=20 > Med: The provisioning of the ASM_PREFIX64 and the SSM_PREFIX is = orthogonal to the address format itself. Various methods can be used but = this is out of scope of the document. We can add a pointer to = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option-00 = as a provisioning example. Would you be fine with adding such reference? Are there any requirements on the provisioning mechanism to maintain the = integrity of the semantics you desire? I think the format just needs to state those. Pointing to a protocol as an existence proof would also be an = improvement. > What is an implementation >> supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it is = governed >> by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed >> prefixes disseminated to the implementation? >=20 > Med: This is an issue for the provisioning method and not for the = specification of the address format itself. I'm not sure about that. If I get a conflicting address using some = control protocol, should I deny that? Just go ahead anyway? Will this confuse the network elements performing the transition = mechanisms? (My questions may sound very theoretic, but that is because the draft = just doesn't tell me enough to even know whether these are good = questions.) > Med: Could you please suggest a better title?=20 Well, given that RFC 6052 already uses "IPv4-embedded" in what I read as = the inverted semantics, this naming is hard to fix. But maybe IPv6 Multicast Address Format With Embedded IPv4 Multicast = Address=20 is not too long and much less ambiguous. >> 3 >>=20 >> The role of 64IX is very unclear. My conjecture is that this draft = is >> defining the address format for the case M=3D1 only (i.e., = address[16] =3D >> 1). No text defines what happens for M=3D0, so the assumption = appears >> to be that RFC 4291 applies unchanged in this case. If this >> conjecture is correct, this needs to be made much clearer. >=20 > Med: The current text says: "When "M-bit" is set to 1, it indicates = that a multicast > IPv4 address is embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the = multicast > IPv6 address.". I can add: "When "M-bit" is set to 0, the address = format follows [RFC4291].". Would this be fine with you?=20 Yes, maybe make even more explicit that this document just governs those = addresses where the M bit is set to 1. >> What is "r"? Define. >=20 > Med: This means "reserved". The text says: "All the remaining bits are = reserved and MUST be set > to 0.". Do you think the text should be clarified further?=20 Yes. I think you should not talk about a "64IX" nibble at all (which = then requires you to reserve three of those four bits) but just talk = about the one M bit that you are assigning semantics to. >> 4 >>=20 >> Why is 64IX moving around here? >> (The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].) >> How does one find out which of the two positions of the M bit to use? >=20 > Med: Once the prefix is configured to a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM = interworking function, the question of the location of the M-bit is not = relevant anymore. If both ASM and SSM modes are supported, two prefixes = will be used.=20 Again, that is true if all network elements agree on the provisioned = prefixes. But if they do, what is the point of this document? Just saying "transition mechanisms can allocate a 96-bit prefix to which = a 32-bit IPv4 multicast address is appended" would be enough then, no? I get the idea that people want to write code that looks at this bit and = exhibits different behavior based on whether it is set or not. If that is not the case, there is no need for that bit... >> . o sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros. >> How does an application find out when to choose a different one? >=20 > Med: Applications are provisioned with the full prefix; see Section 6. But what does "default value" mean then? Who is doing the defaulting, = and what does it mean to use the default or to not use it? >> . 232.0.0.1-232.0.0.255 range is being >> . reserved to IANA. >> Who is making this reservation? ("is being reserved" means the >> resernation is going on right now, but I don't find anything in 9.) >=20 > Med: We removed that sentence as a result of a comment I received from = SM (see mboned archives). Fine. >> 7 >>=20 >> 7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052 is in use. >> If this is true, this should be clearly stated. More specifically, >> the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange >> information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the same RFC 6052 >> parameters in effect. How is that ensured? >=20 > Med: This is a generic issue for RFC6052. We can document the issue if = it is specific to the multicast context.=20 I actually think it is more interesting in the multicast case, because = multicast can span multiple domains (where a unicast address is assigned = to one node that is "in" a specific domain). Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From Tina.Tsou.Zouting@huawei.com Wed May 9 15:47:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E91A11E80C1; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:47:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.123, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ow1gAZNqK8P0; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42EEA11E8086; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO dfweml202-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.2.3-GA FastPath) with ESMTP id AFT08510; Wed, 09 May 2012 18:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DFWEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.203) by dfweml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.9.108) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:44:38 -0700 Received: from SZXEML436-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.72.61.64) by dfweml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.203) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Wed, 9 May 2012 15:44:36 -0700 Received: from SZXEML526-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.48]) by szxeml436-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.72.61.64]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Thu, 10 May 2012 06:44:31 +0800 From: Tina TSOU To: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: AQHNLhUlNH7HgXPKw06b6CUPyEH5epbCDmwE Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:44:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr>, <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 09 May 2012 16:12:33 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 22:47:27 -0000 Sent from my iPad On May 9, 2012, at 11:54 AM, "Carsten Bormann" wrote: > Hi Med, >=20 > thanks for looking into my review. Let me take this opportunity to reite= rate that, while I wrote this review for the Applications Area Directorate,= it is not intended to bear more weight than any other comment submitted by= an individual during a Last Call. >=20 >> Med: There are plenty of applications using this address format: e.g., [= I-D.ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast], [I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast], [I= -D.ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option], [I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framew= ork], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-netext-nat64-pmip], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-mext-n= at64-dsmip], etc. We had pointers to some of those drafts in earlier versio= ns of the document but we removed them and adopted the same approach as RFC= 6052: only the address format is defined while the usage is defined in comp= anion documents. >=20 > The problem with this is that you now have a bit allocation without any s= emantics. > What is different, then, from any other way to allocate multicast address= es? > If you want this part of the address space to have some specific semantic= s, you have to give it some. >=20 >> More details are also documented here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= boucadair-behave-64-multicast-address-format-03#appendix-A.1 and http://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast-address-format-03#appe= ndix-A.2.=20 >>=20 >> There is also a problem statement, available at: http://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-jaclee-behave-v4v6-mcast-ps-03 which can be cited in the introduc= tion.=20 >=20 > I do believe that there needs to be some indication in the document. > Maybe some of the material from the problem statement can be put into an = appendix. > BTW, what is the plan with the problem statement document? Was this too = contentious to make it a WG document? It's has been adopted as MBONED WG item. The authors will submit the WG dra= ft soon. >=20 >>> ** Major Issues: >>>=20 >>> To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements >>> need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this >>> document is in use. What for? More generally, which entities need to >>> interoperate based on a common understanding of this format? >>=20 >> Med: Elements which make use of the address format are deployment-specif= ic; this can be a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, IGMP/ML= D Interworking function. We didn't quoted these interworking functions beca= use this is deployment-specific. Do you think your issue can be solved if w= e add a pointer to one of the solutions documented listed above? >=20 > So the idea is that this is a common format that can be used by any numbe= r of transition mechanisms? > How do you avoid the mechanisms getting confused (e.g., one mechanism all= ocating an address that is then processed incorrectly by a network element = that is using another mechanism)? >=20 > Yes, I think standardizing this document in a cluster with one or more tr= ansition mechanism documents and adding mutual references would be the best= way to handle this. As long as the question above has a good answer... http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-perreault-mboned-igmp-mld-translation= / http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-taylor-pim-v4v6-translation/ >=20 >>> Of the various fields left "configurable according to local policies >>> of the entity managing the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection Function", which >>> are important for applications? How do they know these policies? >>=20 >> Med: The content of this filed is left configurable. Its value will depe= nd on the policies enforced by the administrative entity. Examples of these= policies are: embedded-RF, use unicast-based prefix, etc. Applications are= not aware of these policies since a prefix will (likely /96) will be provi= sioned (see Section 6). >>=20 >> If >>> that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and >>> "SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this >>> information available to applications? I don't think this can be a >>> standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol >>> for disseminating this information. >>=20 >> Med: The provisioning of the ASM_PREFIX64 and the SSM_PREFIX is orthogon= al to the address format itself. Various methods can be used but this is ou= t of scope of the document. We can add a pointer to http://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option-00 as a provisioning exampl= e. Would you be fine with adding such reference? >=20 > Are there any requirements on the provisioning mechanism to maintain the = integrity of the semantics you desire? > I think the format just needs to state those. > Pointing to a protocol as an existence proof would also be an improvement= . Good suggestion. >=20 >> What is an implementation >>> supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it is governed >>> by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed >>> prefixes disseminated to the implementation? >>=20 >> Med: This is an issue for the provisioning method and not for the specif= ication of the address format itself. >=20 > I'm not sure about that. If I get a conflicting address using some contr= ol protocol, should I deny that? Just go ahead anyway? > Will this confuse the network elements performing the transition mechanis= ms? > (My questions may sound very theoretic, but that is because the draft jus= t doesn't tell me enough to even know whether these are good questions.) >=20 >> Med: Could you please suggest a better title?=20 >=20 > Well, given that RFC 6052 already uses "IPv4-embedded" in what I read as = the inverted semantics, this naming is hard to fix. > But maybe >=20 > IPv6 Multicast Address Format With Embedded IPv4 Multicast Address=20 >=20 > is not too long and much less ambiguous. >=20 >>> 3 >>>=20 >>> The role of 64IX is very unclear. My conjecture is that this draft is >>> defining the address format for the case M=3D1 only (i.e., address[16] = =3D >>> 1). No text defines what happens for M=3D0, so the assumption appears >>> to be that RFC 4291 applies unchanged in this case. If this >>> conjecture is correct, this needs to be made much clearer. >>=20 >> Med: The current text says: "When "M-bit" is set to 1, it indicates that= a multicast >> IPv4 address is embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the multicast >> IPv6 address.". I can add: "When "M-bit" is set to 0, the address fo= rmat follows [RFC4291].". Would this be fine with you?=20 >=20 > Yes, maybe make even more explicit that this document just governs those = addresses where the M bit is set to 1. >=20 >>> What is "r"? Define. >>=20 >> Med: This means "reserved". The text says: "All the remaining bits are r= eserved and MUST be set >> to 0.". Do you think the text should be clarified further?=20 >=20 > Yes. I think you should not talk about a "64IX" nibble at all (which the= n requires you to reserve three of those four bits) but just talk about the= one M bit that you are assigning semantics to. >=20 >>> 4 >>>=20 >>> Why is 64IX moving around here? >>> (The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].) >>> How does one find out which of the two positions of the M bit to use? >>=20 >> Med: Once the prefix is configured to a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM inter= working function, the question of the location of the M-bit is not relevant= anymore. If both ASM and SSM modes are supported, two prefixes will be use= d.=20 >=20 > Again, that is true if all network elements agree on the provisioned pref= ixes. > But if they do, what is the point of this document? > Just saying "transition mechanisms can allocate a 96-bit prefix to which = a 32-bit IPv4 multicast address is appended" would be enough then, no? >=20 > I get the idea that people want to write code that looks at this bit and = exhibits different behavior based on whether it is set or not. > If that is not the case, there is no need for that bit... >=20 >>> . o sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros. >>> How does an application find out when to choose a different one? >>=20 >> Med: Applications are provisioned with the full prefix; see Section 6. >=20 > But what does "default value" mean then? Who is doing the defaulting, an= d what does it mean to use the default or to not use it? >=20 >>> . 232.0.0.1-232.0.0.255 range is being >>> . reserved to IANA. >>> Who is making this reservation? ("is being reserved" means the >>> resernation is going on right now, but I don't find anything in 9.) >>=20 >> Med: We removed that sentence as a result of a comment I received from S= M (see mboned archives). >=20 > Fine. >=20 >>> 7 >>>=20 >>> 7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052 is in use. >>> If this is true, this should be clearly stated. More specifically, >>> the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange >>> information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the same RFC 6052 >>> parameters in effect. How is that ensured? >>=20 >> Med: This is a generic issue for RFC6052. We can document the issue if i= t is specific to the multicast context.=20 >=20 > I actually think it is more interesting in the multicast case, because mu= lticast can span multiple domains (where a unicast address is assigned to o= ne node that is "in" a specific domain). >=20 > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned From fernando.gont.netbook.win@gmail.com Wed May 9 16:50:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC0421F847E for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5RAjnZNXtFb for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3218A21F847D for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhq56 with SMTP id 56so1082004yhq.31 for ; Wed, 09 May 2012 16:50:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h9JNHrGH7znBl2Axf3nGGwzXHSn5opSM8+uZum4h1iE=; b=K3feOLFxgVPGX/xj3ZBtQkq6Zvj6uTMCmidtN+aAJxpcHzugiwPGp7qXJW07BjoryD F7jUTkW9NJF5XCfmHoM18FsrhIrh/zDN321TDE4aGz4tIdTveT2a6unRUU/EIrBmOa01 aiWOrtN9PLT3OFV5Zi438uu2rQXv+d0VCwB9Fp/fCkUlZLKXend2LiecHzvB21iIramb fEUp5P3y0eLe4nez+fwl8AZgXw7qc7JttcpL7KGXmU3QYh92550AKfvtFwyE9WM2GlDP zApX+b4Z3b/8u0hRJuUKt2Oy9gdJ2xgOBJ/yijYUPq0IY/Z4z3EJNLMFOPtgG/W0MTeW 6aag== Received: by 10.236.161.102 with SMTP id v66mr2510849yhk.56.1336607449791; Wed, 09 May 2012 16:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.59.1.77] ([200.24.221.37]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a30sm18715309yhe.18.2012.05.09.16.50.46 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 09 May 2012 16:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 20:50:45 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ole_Tr=F8an?= Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5pre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 23:50:51 -0000 Hi, Ole, On 05/08/2012 02:42 PM, Ole Trøan wrote: > The discussion brought up some issues that we will work with the author to > resolve, in particular: > > - The current draft is written to not allow the IETF to create derivative works. > This is incompatible with the IETF standards process. > See section 4 of http://www.ietf.org/id-info/1id-guidelines.txt My understanding is that this is perfectly compatible with the IETF standards process, as long as this restriction is removed before posting as draft-ietf (for instance, I guess that's why it's allowed in the first place). (this restriction will be removed in the upcoming draft-ietf version, accordingly) > - The draft should not replace modified EUI-64 IIDs. It intents to provide an alternative to > IEEE MAC based modified EUI-64 IIDs. Agreed. > The draft should not update RFC4191 and RFC4862 Agreed. However, it looks like this document should update RFC2464, though. Thoughts? > - The proposed mechanism has merit separately from the perceived "security" benefits, > because it creates modified EUI-64 Internet Identifiers that are not IEEE Mac based and > eliminates any concern about host tracking based on the IEEE MAC addresses. I agree with this -- e.g. using the interface index in the hash leads to stable NIC-independent addresses that don't vary even if you replace the NIC. Is *this* what I should note in the next rev of the document? Thanks! Best regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com Wed May 9 19:52:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B1E9E800B; Wed, 9 May 2012 19:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.722 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.509, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sSGapeih4jJP; Wed, 9 May 2012 19:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F92C9E8006; Wed, 9 May 2012 19:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.16727490; Wed, 09 May 2012 20:37:35 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::a5b0:e5c4:df1b:2367]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0283.003; Wed, 9 May 2012 22:52:11 -0400 From: "Lee, Yiu" To: Carsten Bormann , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Subject: Re: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: AQHNLlfkes/D+SuV6UexlvBrmJ/rJg== Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 02:52:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.1.120420 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.71] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3419448728_1036269" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 02:32:21 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 02:52:16 -0000 --B_3419448728_1036269 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Carsten, Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a point to your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is broadcasted in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). There will be a function in the network which is statically configured that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the application and managed by the network. Thanks, Yiu On 5/9/12 2:20 PM, "Carsten Bormann" wrote: >The problem with this is that you now have a bit allocation without any >semantics. >What is different, then, from any other way to allocate multicast >addresses? >If you want this part of the address space to have some specific >semantics, you have to give it some. --B_3419448728_1036269 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIVlwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIViDCCFYQCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC EzAwggUzMIIEG6ADAgECAhBTm5vcGTrcIPdnvVTe3rDkMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGTMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxm b3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDE5MDcGA1UEAxMwQ09NT0RPIENsaWVu dCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgU2VjdXJlIEVtYWlsIENBMB4XDTEyMDIxNDAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDIxMzIzNTk1OVowKjEoMCYGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYZeWl1X2xlZUBjYWJsZS5jb21jYXN0 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pH7rL6r5hIpR; Wed, 9 May 2012 23:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv05.olivemail.cn (mx100.vip.olivemail.net [74.82.185.218]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEA721F85B4; Wed, 9 May 2012 23:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv01.olivemail.cn (unknown [202.105.21.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by srv05.olivemail.cn (Olivemail) with ESMTPS id 3E91D3800C9; Thu, 10 May 2012 02:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oray.cn (unknown [202.105.21.248]) by srv01.olivemail.cn (Olivemail) with ESMTP id C24F7340077; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:20:55 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.140.20.59] (unknown [64.104.125.217]) by app (Coremail) with SMTP id +AWowJAL6wVEXqtPWbrrAA--.19050S2; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:20:53 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <4FAB5E40.7080809@jacni.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:20:48 +0800 From: Jacni Qin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080101020101010503000406" X-CM-TRANSID: +AWowJAL6wVEXqtPWbrrAA--.19050S2 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1UD129KBjvJXoW3JFy5Aw1Dury8WrW8Wr4UJwb_yoW3GrW5pa y3Krs8KF1kJw1rCw4kZw18Wr1F9Fs5trW7KFW5K34UZws8Kr1IvF4Fkw4Y9a4DWr95Za1j vr4akrn8Za4qyaDanT9S1TB71UUUUUUqnTZGkaVYY2UrUUUUjbIjqfuFe4nvWSU5nxnvy2 9KBjDU0xBIdaVrnL8YjsxI4VWkKwAYFVCjjxCrM7CY07I20VC2zVCF04k26cxKx2IYs7xG 6rWj6s0DMcIj6xIIjxv20xvE14v26r1j6r18McIj6I8E87Iv67AKxVWUJVW8JwACjcxG0x vEwIxGrwCjr7xvwVCIw2I0I7xG6c02F41lc7I2V7IY0VAS07AlzVAYIcxG8wCF04k20xvY 0x0EwIxGrwC2zVAF1VAY17CE14v26r126r1DMIIYrxkI7VAKI48JYxBIdaVFxhVjvjDU0x ZFpf9x07jwPEfUUUUU= X-CM-SenderInfo: xmdf0xo6mdu03lof0z/1tbiAQAKEko7lQ825AABsh X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 02:32:21 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 06:21:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080101020101010503000406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Carsten, Thanks a lot for your comments, please see inline below. On 5/10/2012 Thursday 2:20 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Med, > > thanks for looking into my review. Let me take this opportunity to reiterate that, while I wrote this review for the Applications Area Directorate, it is not intended to bear more weight than any other comment submitted by an individual during a Last Call. > >> Med: There are plenty of applications using this address format: e.g., [I-D.ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast], [I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast], [I-D.ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option], [I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framework], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-netext-nat64-pmip], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-mext-nat64-dsmip], etc. We had pointers to some of those drafts in earlier versions of the document but we removed them and adopted the same approach as RFC6052: only the address format is defined while the usage is defined in companion documents. > The problem with this is that you now have a bit allocation without any semantics. > What is different, then, from any other way to allocate multicast addresses? > If you want this part of the address space to have some specific semantics, you have to give it some. For the semantics, you can see YIu's point. More specifically, for example, some adaptive/interworking function of network elements can interpret it as, if the M bit is set 1, then pick the corresponding IPv4 group address. >>> ** Major Issues: >>> >>> To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements >>> need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this >>> document is in use. What for? More generally, which entities need to >>> interoperate based on a common understanding of this format? >> Med: Elements which make use of the address format are deployment-specific; this can be a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, IGMP/MLD Interworking function. We didn't quoted these interworking functions because this is deployment-specific. Do you think your issue can be solved if we add a pointer to one of the solutions documented listed above? > So the idea is that this is a common format that can be used by any number of transition mechanisms? > How do you avoid the mechanisms getting confused (e.g., one mechanism allocating an address that is then processed incorrectly by a network element that is using another mechanism)? Not sure whether I understand your question here correctly, but let me try to, The address/prefix allocating should be an independent component of the service provisioning, and should just make a consistent assignment of the block throughout the related elements. The format standardized is for the elements to perform the adaptive function without any coordination. > Yes, I think standardizing this document in a cluster with one or more transition mechanism documents and adding mutual references would be the best way to handle this. As long as the question above has a good answer... > > > If >>> that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and >>> "SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this >>> information available to applications? I don't think this can be a >>> standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol >>> for disseminating this information. >> Med: The provisioning of the ASM_PREFIX64 and the SSM_PREFIX is orthogonal to the address format itself. Various methods can be used but this is out of scope of the document. We can add a pointer to http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option-00 as a provisioning example. Would you be fine with adding such reference? > Are there any requirements on the provisioning mechanism to maintain the integrity of the semantics you desire? > I think the format just needs to state those. I guess standardizing the format is to maintain the integrity of the semantics. For the responsibility of address/prefix provisioning mechanism, please see my response above. Or maybe I misunderstand your question? > Pointing to a protocol as an existence proof would also be an improvement. > >> What is an implementation >>> supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it is governed >>> by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed >>> prefixes disseminated to the implementation? >> Med: This is an issue for the provisioning method and not for the specification of the address format itself. > I'm not sure about that. If I get a conflicting address using some control protocol, should I deny that? Just go ahead anyway? > Will this confuse the network elements performing the transition mechanisms? It should be in the scope of operations or deployment, to avoid that. > (My questions may sound very theoretic, but that is because the draft just doesn't tell me enough to even know whether these are good questions.) > >> Med: Could you please suggest a better title? > Well, given that RFC 6052 already uses "IPv4-embedded" in what I read as the inverted semantics, this naming is hard to fix. > But maybe > > IPv6 Multicast Address Format With Embedded IPv4 Multicast Address > > is not too long and much less ambiguous. We'll consider it, thanks a lot. >>> 4 >>> >>> Why is 64IX moving around here? >>> (The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].) >>> How does one find out which of the two positions of the M bit to use? >> Med: Once the prefix is configured to a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, the question of the location of the M-bit is not relevant anymore. If both ASM and SSM modes are supported, two prefixes will be used. > Again, that is true if all network elements agree on the provisioned prefixes. > But if they do, what is the point of this document? > Just saying "transition mechanisms can allocate a 96-bit prefix to which a 32-bit IPv4 multicast address is appended" would be enough then, no? In this way, the elements have to maintain "states", and coordination is required. Even though, they also have to be told how to derive the IPv4 multicast address embedded. > > I get the idea that people want to write code that looks at this bit and exhibits different behavior based on whether it is set or not. > If that is not the case, there is no need for that bit... > >>> . o sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros. >>> How does an application find out when to choose a different one? >> Med: Applications are provisioned with the full prefix; see Section 6. > But what does "default value" mean then? Who is doing the defaulting, and what does it mean to use the default or to not use it? It can mean, for example "if RFC3956, embedding RP in an IPv6 multicast address is not used". Cheers, Jacni >>> 7 >>> >>> 7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052 is in use. >>> If this is true, this should be clearly stated. More specifically, >>> the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange >>> information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the same RFC 6052 >>> parameters in effect. How is that ensured? >> Med: This is a generic issue for RFC6052. We can document the issue if it is specific to the multicast context. > I actually think it is more interesting in the multicast case, because multicast can span multiple domains (where a unicast address is assigned to one node that is "in" a specific domain). > > Grüße, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned > > --------------080101020101010503000406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Carsten,

Thanks a lot for your comments, please see inline below.

On 5/10/2012 Thursday 2:20 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: 
Hi Med,

thanks for looking into my review.  Let me take this opportunity to reiterate that, while I wrote this review for the Applications Area Directorate, it is not intended to bear more weight than any other comment submitted by an individual during a Last Call.


Med: There are plenty of applications using this address format: e.g., [I-D.ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast], [I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast], [I-D.ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option], [I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framework],  [I-D.sarikaya-behave-netext-nat64-pmip], [I-D.sarikaya-behave-mext-nat64-dsmip], etc. We had pointers to some of those drafts in earlier versions of the document but we removed them and adopted the same approach as RFC6052: only the address format is defined while the usage is defined in companion documents.

The problem with this is that you now have a bit allocation without any semantics.
What is different, then, from any other way to allocate multicast addresses?
If you want this part of the address space to have some specific semantics, you have to give it some.
For the semantics, you can see YIu's point. More specifically, for example, some adaptive/interworking function of network elements can interpret it as, if the M bit is set 1, then pick the corresponding IPv4 group address.

** Major Issues:

To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements
need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this
document is in use.  What for?  More generally, which entities need to
interoperate based on a common understanding of this format?

Med: Elements which make use of the address format are deployment-specific; this can be a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, IGMP/MLD Interworking function. We didn't quoted these interworking functions because this is deployment-specific. Do you think your issue can be solved if we add a pointer to one of the solutions documented listed above?

So the idea is that this is a common format that can be used by any number of transition mechanisms?
How do you avoid the mechanisms getting confused (e.g., one mechanism allocating an address that is then processed incorrectly by a network element that is using another mechanism)?
Not sure whether I understand your question here correctly, but let me try to,
The address/prefix allocating should be an independent component of the service provisioning, and should just make a consistent assignment of the block throughout the related elements. The format standardized is for the elements to perform the adaptive function without any coordination.

Yes, I think standardizing this document in a cluster with one or more transition mechanism documents and adding mutual references would be the best way to handle this.  As long as the question above has a good answer...


 If

that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and
"SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this
information available to applications?  I don't think this can be a
standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol
for disseminating this information.

Med: The provisioning of the ASM_PREFIX64 and the SSM_PREFIX is orthogonal to the address format itself. Various methods can be used but this is out of scope of the document. We can add a pointer to http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option-00 as a provisioning example. Would you be fine with adding such reference?

Are there any requirements on the provisioning mechanism to maintain the integrity of the semantics you desire?
I think the format just needs to state those.
I guess standardizing the format is to maintain the integrity of the semantics. For the responsibility of address/prefix provisioning mechanism, please see my response above.
Or maybe I misunderstand your question?

Pointing to a protocol as an existence proof would also be an improvement.


 What is an implementation

supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it is governed
by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed
prefixes disseminated to the implementation?

Med: This is an issue for the provisioning method and not for the specification of the address format itself.

I'm not sure about that.  If I get a conflicting address using some control protocol, should I deny that?  Just go ahead anyway?
Will this confuse the network elements performing the transition mechanisms?
It should be in the scope of operations or deployment, to avoid that.

(My questions may sound very theoretic, but that is because the draft just doesn't tell me enough to even know whether these are good questions.)


Med: Could you please suggest a better title? 

Well, given that RFC 6052 already uses "IPv4-embedded" in what I read as the inverted semantics, this naming is hard to fix.
But maybe

	IPv6 Multicast Address Format With Embedded IPv4 Multicast Address 

is not too long and much less ambiguous.
We'll consider it, thanks a lot.

4

Why is 64IX moving around here?
(The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].)
How does one find out which of the two positions of the M bit to use?

Med: Once the prefix is configured to a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, the question of the location of the M-bit is not relevant anymore. If both ASM and SSM modes are supported, two prefixes will be used. 

Again, that is true if all network elements agree on the provisioned prefixes.
But if they do, what is the point of this document?
Just saying "transition mechanisms can allocate a 96-bit prefix to which a 32-bit IPv4 multicast address is appended" would be enough then, no?
In this way, the elements have to maintain "states", and coordination is required. Even though, they also have to be told how to derive the IPv4 multicast address embedded.


I get the idea that people want to write code that looks at this bit and exhibits different behavior based on whether it is set or not.
If that is not the case, there is no need for that bit...


.          o  sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros.
How does an application find out when to choose a different one?

Med: Applications are provisioned with the full prefix; see Section 6.

But what does "default value" mean then?  Who is doing the defaulting, and what does it mean to use the default or to not use it?
It can mean, for example "if RFC3956, embedding RP in an IPv6 multicast address is not used".


Cheers,
Jacni

7

7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052 is in use.
If this is true, this should be clearly stated.  More specifically,
the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange
information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the same RFC 6052
parameters in effect.  How is that ensured?

Med: This is a generic issue for RFC6052. We can document the issue if it is specific to the multicast context. 

I actually think it is more interesting in the multicast case, because multicast can span multiple domains (where a unicast address is assigned to one node that is "in" a specific domain).

Grüße, Carsten

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--------------080101020101010503000406-- From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Thu May 10 02:12:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EA021F85FC; Thu, 10 May 2012 02:12:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.093 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.155, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqowR4Qr8rV6; Thu, 10 May 2012 02:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3493621F85F8; Thu, 10 May 2012 02:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by omfedm10.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 977DF264498; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:12:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCH11.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.27]) by omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 777F127C057; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:12:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.9]) by PUEXCH11.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.27]) with mapi; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:12:00 +0200 From: To: Carsten Bormann Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:11:58 +0200 Subject: RE: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: Ac0uEHTRtaVl85H2Tjm7beWGJ+xMzgAc2mIg Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E2A52C67B@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.6.1.2065439, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.5.10.73320 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 02:32:21 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 09:12:03 -0000 Dear Carsten, Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Med=20 >-----Message d'origine----- >De : Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]=20 >Envoy=E9 : mercredi 9 mai 2012 20:21 >=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP >Cc :=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.or >g; apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols; The=20 >IESG; 6man@ietf.org; mboned@ietf.org >Objet : Re: APPSDIR review of=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 > >Hi Med, > >thanks for looking into my review. Let me take this=20 >opportunity to reiterate that, while I wrote this review for=20 >the Applications Area Directorate, it is not intended to bear=20 >more weight than any other comment submitted by an individual=20 >during a Last Call. > >> Med: There are plenty of applications using this address=20 >format: e.g., [I-D.ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast],=20 >[I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast],=20 >[I-D.ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option],=20 >[I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framework], =20 >[I-D.sarikaya-behave-netext-nat64-pmip],=20 >[I-D.sarikaya-behave-mext-nat64-dsmip], etc. We had pointers=20 >to some of those drafts in earlier versions of the document=20 >but we removed them and adopted the same approach as RFC6052:=20 >only the address format is defined while the usage is defined=20 >in companion documents. > >The problem with this is that you now have a bit allocation=20 >without any semantics. >What is different, then, from any other way to allocate=20 >multicast addresses? >If you want this part of the address space to have some=20 >specific semantics, you have to give it some. Med: Ok. I'm planning to do these changes: (a) Re-insert this appendix: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-beh= ave-64-multicast-address-format-03#appendix-A.2 and a reference to it in th= e introduction? (b) Add this text to the introduction: Recently various solutions (e.g., [I-D.venaas-behave-v4v6mc-framework], [I-D.ietf-softwire-mesh-multicast] or [I-D.ietf-softwire-dslite-multicas= t]) have been proposed to allow access to IPv4 multicast content from hosts attached to IPv6-enabled domains. Even if these solutions have distinct applicability scopes (translation vs. encapsulation) and target different use cases, they all make use of specific IPv6 multicast addresses to embed an IPv4 multicast address. Particularly, the IPv4-embedded IPv6 multicast address is used as a destination IPv6 address of multicast flows received from an IPv4-enabled domain and injected by the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection Function into an IPv6-enabled domain. It is also used to build an IPv6 multicast state (*, G6) or (S6, G6) corresponding to their (*, G4) or (S4, G4) IPv4 counter parts by the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection Function. Are you OK with these proposed changes? > >> More details are also documented here:=20 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast- >address-format-03#appendix-A.1 and=20 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-64-multicast- >address-format-03#appendix-A.2.=20 >>=20 >> There is also a problem statement, available at:=20 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jaclee-behave-v4v6-mcast-ps-03 > which can be cited in the introduction.=20 > >I do believe that there needs to be some indication in the document. >Maybe some of the material from the problem statement can be=20 >put into an appendix. >BTW, what is the plan with the problem statement document? =20 >Was this too contentious to make it a WG document? Med: The problem statement document has been adopted as an mboned WG docume= nt. I added this sentence: More discussion about issues related to IPv4/IPv6 multicast can be found at [I-D.jaclee-behave-v4v6-mcast-ps]. > >>> ** Major Issues: >>>=20 >>> To continue the summary: I don't understand which network elements >>> need to be able to determine, by looking at an IP address, that this >>> document is in use. What for? More generally, which=20 >entities need to >>> interoperate based on a common understanding of this format? >>=20 >> Med: Elements which make use of the address format are=20 >deployment-specific; this can be a receiver, an IPv4-IPv6 PIM=20 >interworking function, IGMP/MLD Interworking function. We=20 >didn't quoted these interworking functions because this is=20 >deployment-specific. Do you think your issue can be solved if=20 >we add a pointer to one of the solutions documented listed above? > >So the idea is that this is a common format that can be used=20 >by any number of transition mechanisms? >How do you avoid the mechanisms getting confused (e.g., one=20 >mechanism allocating an address that is then processed=20 >incorrectly by a network element that is using another mechanism)? Med: What do you think is needed to be added to http://tools.ietf.org/html/= draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01#section-6? Thanks. > >Yes, I think standardizing this document in a cluster with one=20 >or more transition mechanism documents and adding mutual=20 >references would be the best way to handle this. As long as=20 >the question above has a good answer... > >>> Of the various fields left "configurable according to local policies >>> of the entity managing the IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection=20 >Function", which >>> are important for applications? How do they know these policies? >>=20 >> Med: The content of this filed is left configurable. Its=20 >value will depend on the policies enforced by the=20 >administrative entity. Examples of these policies are:=20 >embedded-RF, use unicast-based prefix, etc. Applications are=20 >not aware of these policies since a prefix will (likely /96)=20 >will be provisioned (see Section 6). >>=20 >> If >>> that information is all in the two parameters "ASM_MPREFIX64" and >>> "SSM_MPREFIX64", what is the protocol that will be used to make this >>> information available to applications? I don't think this can be a >>> standards-track document without defining at least one MTI protocol >>> for disseminating this information. >>=20 >> Med: The provisioning of the ASM_PREFIX64 and the SSM_PREFIX=20 >is orthogonal to the address format itself. Various methods=20 >can be used but this is out of scope of the document. We can=20 >add a pointer to=20 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix >-option-00 as a provisioning example. Would you be fine with=20 >adding such reference? > >Are there any requirements on the provisioning mechanism to=20 >maintain the integrity of the semantics you desire? Med: The provisioning mechanism (e.g., dhcp, netconf, etc.) is not "aware" = of the semantic. There are no specific requirements compared to another pro= visioning context. If your comment is related to http://tools.ietf.org/html= /rfc6052#section-5.2, this is already captured in the Security Consideratio= ns section. >I think the format just needs to state those. >Pointing to a protocol as an existence proof would also be an=20 >improvement. Med: I added a I-D.ietf-softwire-multicast-prefix-option as an informative = reference. > >> What is an implementation >>> supposed to do that receives an address that looks like it=20 >is governed >>> by this document but does not conform to either of the agreed >>> prefixes disseminated to the implementation? >>=20 >> Med: This is an issue for the provisioning method and not=20 >for the specification of the address format itself. > >I'm not sure about that. If I get a conflicting address using=20 >some control protocol, should I deny that? Just go ahead anyway? >Will this confuse the network elements performing the=20 >transition mechanisms? Med: The current text says that up to 2 MPREFIX64 can be provisioned; one p= refix for ASM and another one for SSM. Just like any other configurable par= ameter, the value of these parameters will be set to the latest (valid) enf= orced configuration. I still don't see what I can add to Section 6.=20 =20 >(My questions may sound very theoretic, but that is because=20 >the draft just doesn't tell me enough to even know whether=20 >these are good questions.) > >> Med: Could you please suggest a better title?=20 > >Well, given that RFC 6052 already uses "IPv4-embedded" in what=20 >I read as the inverted semantics, this naming is hard to fix. >But maybe > > IPv6 Multicast Address Format With Embedded IPv4=20 >Multicast Address=20 > >is not too long and much less ambiguous. Med: Thanks. I updated the text. > >>> 3 >>>=20 >>> The role of 64IX is very unclear. My conjecture is that=20 >this draft is >>> defining the address format for the case M=3D1 only (i.e.,=20 >address[16] =3D >>> 1). No text defines what happens for M=3D0, so the assumption appears >>> to be that RFC 4291 applies unchanged in this case. If this >>> conjecture is correct, this needs to be made much clearer. >>=20 >> Med: The current text says: "When "M-bit" is set to 1, it=20 >indicates that a multicast >> IPv4 address is embedded in the low-order 32 bits of=20 >the multicast >> IPv6 address.". I can add: "When "M-bit" is set to 0,=20 >the address format follows [RFC4291].". Would this be fine with you?=20 > >Yes, maybe make even more explicit that this document just=20 >governs those addresses where the M bit is set to 1. > >>> What is "r"? Define. >>=20 >> Med: This means "reserved". The text says: "All the=20 >remaining bits are reserved and MUST be set >> to 0.". Do you think the text should be clarified further?=20 > >Yes. I think you should not talk about a "64IX" nibble at all=20 >(which then requires you to reserve three of those four bits)=20 >but just talk about the one M bit that you are assigning semantics to. > >>> 4 >>>=20 >>> Why is 64IX moving around here? >>> (The discriminating bit M now seems to be address[32].) >>> How does one find out which of the two positions of the M=20 >bit to use? >>=20 >> Med: Once the prefix is configured to a receiver, an=20 >IPv4-IPv6 PIM interworking function, the question of the=20 >location of the M-bit is not relevant anymore. If both ASM and=20 >SSM modes are supported, two prefixes will be used.=20 > >Again, that is true if all network elements agree on the=20 >provisioned prefixes. >But if they do, what is the point of this document? >Just saying "transition mechanisms can allocate a 96-bit=20 >prefix to which a 32-bit IPv4 multicast address is appended"=20 >would be enough then, no? > >I get the idea that people want to write code that looks at=20 >this bit and exhibits different behavior based on whether it=20 >is set or not. >If that is not the case, there is no need for that bit... > >>> . o sub-group-id: The default value is all zeros. >>> How does an application find out when to choose a different one? >>=20 >> Med: Applications are provisioned with the full prefix; see=20 >Section 6. > >But what does "default value" mean then? Who is doing the=20 >defaulting, and what does it mean to use the default or to not use it? Med: The entity managing the IPv4/IPv6 Interconnection function. > >>> . 232.0.0.1-232.0.0.255 range is being >>> . reserved to IANA. >>> Who is making this reservation? ("is being reserved" means the >>> resernation is going on right now, but I don't find anything in 9.) >>=20 >> Med: We removed that sentence as a result of a comment I=20 >received from SM (see mboned archives). > >Fine. > >>> 7 >>>=20 >>> 7 seems to imply this format is only useful where RFC 6052=20 >is in use. >>> If this is true, this should be clearly stated. More specifically, >>> the assumption appears to be that all nodes that need to exchange >>> information that concerns IPv4 sources need to have the=20 >same RFC 6052 >>> parameters in effect. How is that ensured? >>=20 >> Med: This is a generic issue for RFC6052. We can document=20 >the issue if it is specific to the multicast context.=20 > >I actually think it is more interesting in the multicast case,=20 >because multicast can span multiple domains (where a unicast=20 >address is assigned to one node that is "in" a specific domain). > Med: Yes, but still this is a generic issue for RFC6052. Some deployment-sp= ecific documents already covered this point: e.g., http://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast-02#section-5:=20 "The mAFTR and mB4 MUST use the same mPrefix64 and uPrefix64, as well as run the same algorithm for=20 building IPv4-embedded IPv6 addresses." Do you want to see a similar wording in the address format draft?= From bob.hinden@gmail.com Thu May 10 04:37:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14AA921F8541 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:37:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.370, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RCAieWJktJLk for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC5E21F8503 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhq56 with SMTP id 56so1655429yhq.31 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:37:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=Z8aHvJMod5tuicxu9a56p9CZEOkQQGZ420KZD3loW2I=; b=gnjxaWvc6HnDlzONpkPzP9Hy2GXfekF1mYpMemq47IKjMUoV5VvjcfIr3Mn4zXlT4C ekVIT9nTFwV2udGjSAKSu5Y82+qinR2xV58z/D1zVpTapUFK3qyhYR+Bl0ZDsiURlnwW BmXqWaPWksowMwDQvijtKn7BtejXlYp4wwRiwUVpMTJbk6Yui309xaLjNV5XGwPvRpOl VoqkmcAAk4iqOY90pyB2jFpjGMGj178WRqykpZirpAgj++sPecnZK4oFPSu0PGCVNCW3 aXWq/4AJLMepzu8BQcs/ubF26nrt191tnu3T8gSTA4Ldk+FiLU/1mZjp7CwXUvAln8Ng Vm9g== Received: by 10.42.141.72 with SMTP id n8mr1828577icu.47.1336649819599; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.35.37] ([38.100.136.98]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k4sm1445974igq.16.2012.05.10.04.36.57 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 May 2012 04:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 07:36:56 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , Bob Hinden , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:37:01 -0000 Fernando, On May 9, 2012, at 7:50 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Hi, Ole, >=20 > On 05/08/2012 02:42 PM, Ole Tr=F8an wrote: >> The discussion brought up some issues that we will work with the = author to >> resolve, in particular: >>=20 >> - The current draft is written to not allow the IETF to create = derivative works. >> This is incompatible with the IETF standards process. >> See section 4 of http://www.ietf.org/id-info/1id-guidelines.txt >=20 > My understanding is that this is perfectly compatible with the IETF > standards process, as long as this restriction is removed before = posting > as draft-ietf (for instance, I guess that's why it's allowed in the > first place). (this restriction will be removed in the upcoming > draft-ietf version, accordingly) It is allowed and I don't want to start a big IPR thread here, but I = think the intent for this clause (no derivative works) is for work that = someone wants to present to a w.g. that was not intended to be an IETF = work item. My opinion is that it's not appropriate for documents = intended to become an IETF work item as yours was. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> - The draft should not replace modified EUI-64 IIDs. It intents to = provide an alternative to >> IEEE MAC based modified EUI-64 IIDs. >=20 > Agreed. >=20 >=20 >> The draft should not update RFC4191 and RFC4862 >=20 > Agreed. However, it looks like this document should update RFC2464, = though. >=20 > Thoughts? Perhaps at some point in the future if the working group wants to = require stable privacy addresses, but not at this point. I think we = will need operational experience before making that change. Bob >=20 >=20 >> - The proposed mechanism has merit separately from the perceived = "security" benefits, >> because it creates modified EUI-64 Internet Identifiers that are = not IEEE Mac based and >> eliminates any concern about host tracking based on the IEEE MAC = addresses. >=20 > I agree with this -- e.g. using the interface index in the hash leads = to > stable NIC-independent addresses that don't vary even if you replace = the > NIC. Is *this* what I should note in the next rev of the document? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Best regards, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fernando.gont.netbook.win@gmail.com Thu May 10 05:16:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF9A21F8646 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hBR9SgZKfsSp for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2EB21F8618 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yhq56 with SMTP id 56so1706088yhq.31 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:16:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vVLs5FmJDRa3d2A9pZcgbAxuW5tFklvDoq7b4+aegTI=; b=ELlU46WypeGQNB+t/HLYvw8laCwMAxrSt+sxJ5pE9a1wliz5r/foAMo0OA18deU/qR VLzlQW9tLJ7pkzhFqcDNVOvLNkub+PQIdY89weQuNepbNTKhycbPZrBQdT45316JU/DT yvW6GkCJRzQVkowgH25LGmEsd64/XiIdQSRpQi/i5hsstQCUJUXH0tjtcdMDFhJ1jHqP UjMUgJtFwrF5zUdgp2pFXYPeAbevm685IMP1DHxuDpTyNaX0xzeMzdDIJh5V2vnvhOMK 0pxEcmC3PMe+1vihuYl5nG4q4LsCFjf4FdSmZH/TyUPBQe4X345VhGxMmltKR1BFKt6w gDLg== Received: by 10.236.146.1 with SMTP id q1mr4985990yhj.33.1336652192977; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.59.1.77] ([200.24.221.37]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v16sm9171511anh.22.2012.05.10.05.16.29 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 May 2012 05:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <4FABB19B.5010001@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 09:16:27 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5pre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:16:34 -0000 Hi, Bob, On 05/10/2012 08:36 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>> - The current draft is written to not allow the IETF to create >>> derivative works. This is incompatible with the IETF standards >>> process. See section 4 of >>> http://www.ietf.org/id-info/1id-guidelines.txt >> >> My understanding is that this is perfectly compatible with the >> IETF standards process, as long as this restriction is removed >> before posting as draft-ietf (for instance, I guess that's why it's >> allowed in the first place). (this restriction will be removed in >> the upcoming draft-ietf version, accordingly) > > It is allowed and I don't want to start a big IPR thread here, but I > think the intent for this clause (no derivative works) is for work > that someone wants to present to a w.g. that was not intended to be > an IETF work item. My opinion is that it's not appropriate for > documents intended to become an IETF work item as yours was. I will consult this upstream and try to remove this restriction in future items. However, I should say that since the above restriction is completely removed once/if the document is adopted by a WG (as required by the standards process), I find it hard to see what's the issue. IMHO, it would be kind of weird for an individual I-D to be controversial because of this, and then have *RFCs* that have real and concrete implementation restrictions -- in this case, any such restrictions are gone way before the document becomes an actual RFC. >>> - The draft should not replace modified EUI-64 IIDs. It intents >>> to provide an alternative to IEEE MAC based modified EUI-64 >>> IIDs. >> [....] >> Agreed. However, it looks like this document should update RFC2464, >> though. >> >> Thoughts? > > Perhaps at some point in the future if the working group wants to > require stable privacy addresses, but not at this point. I think we > will need operational experience before making that change. Fair enough. My concern was that, specs-wise, IIDs will still be required to embed IEEE-identifiers. So even if the "update" is not about "you must use stable privacy addresses", the metadata should help anyone implementing IPv6 over Ethernet to notice the problems of IEEE-derived IIDs, and possible alternatives. Thanks! Best regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From cabo@tzi.org Thu May 10 04:01:11 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E170721F867E; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qHumQq18toG; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA6021F8678; Thu, 10 May 2012 04:01:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4AB0h23009350; Thu, 10 May 2012 13:00:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.117] (p5489AF8A.dip.t-dialin.net [84.137.175.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0BD3C8F0; Thu, 10 May 2012 13:00:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 13:00:45 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> To: Tina TSOU X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 05:24:18 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:01:12 -0000 Hi Tina, thanks for the pointers. On the problem statement, you say: > It's has been adopted as MBONED WG item. The authors will submit the = WG draft soon. So I would normally expect the two documents (problem statement and = normative spec) to go through as a cluster (if not the problem statement = first). Given the difference in advancement, that may be difficult to achieve, = though; if that is not possible, the spec will need to provide some = context by itself. > = http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-perreault-mboned-igmp-mld-translatio= n/ This document reveals that the IPv4 multicast address embedded into the = IPv6 multicast address is indeed used as such by applications on the = other side of the mapper (5.2.4). My main comment is that the mboned-64-multicast-address-format document = does not even hint that this might be the case, much less defines = semantics that might be used by an application on the IPv6 side (and = there have been other comments that applications are not even involved = on the IPv6 side, which doesn't quite seem to mesh with this document). > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-taylor-pim-v4v6-translation/ The latter is very clear in saying If an IPv6 group address to be translated matches the format specified in that document for an IPv4-embedded IPv6 ASM or SSM group address, the corresponding IPv4 group address MUST be obtained by extracting the low-order 32 bits from the IPv6 address. (The value of the sub- group-id field is irrelevant to this procedure.)=20 So that supports my conjecture that the following is a strong, unstated = requirement on the format document: It MUST be possible to determine, by looking at a packet, whether the = destination IP address in there is matching the format or not. This places an even stronger burden on the completeness of the = specification than I initially thought. I would address this by describing the algorithm that gets used to = determine whether there is a match by looking at the packet. (The fact that I cannot determine this algorithm even by educated = guessing is my other main comment.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Thu May 10 05:09:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC1F21F852A; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:09:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dEe-Ri46AX10; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8210C21F8527; Thu, 10 May 2012 05:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46F5232463F; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:09:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCH71.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.33]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 140F84C06F; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:09:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.9]) by PUEXCH71.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.33]) with mapi; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:09:17 +0200 From: To: Carsten Bormann , Tina TSOU Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:09:17 +0200 Subject: RE: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: Ac0unDb3juC9I39IRUSqsYZeuXzk7QAB/VwQ Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E2A52C755@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <92309DC0-A179-4B5B-9D8C-4B55F64A4668@tzi.org> <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E29946F71@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> <9DBF9340-B04E-4A6A-98A1-B90525A1407C@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.6.1.2065439, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.5.10.111522 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 05:24:21 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:09:20 -0000 Dear Cartsen, The algorithm to extract the embedded IPv4 address is as follows:=20 If the multicast address belongs to ff3x:0:8000/33 or ffxx:8000/17, extract= the last 32 bits of the IPv6 address. Are you suggesting to add such clarification to the address format I-D? Cheers, Med=20 >-----Message d'origine----- >De : Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]=20 >Envoy=E9 : jeudi 10 mai 2012 13:01 >=C0 : Tina TSOU >Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP; mboned@ietf.org;=20 >6man@ietf.org; The IESG; apps-discuss@ietf.org=20 >application-layer protocols;=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org >Objet : Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 > >Hi Tina, > >thanks for the pointers. > >On the problem statement, you say: > >> It's has been adopted as MBONED WG item. The authors will=20 >submit the WG draft soon. > >So I would normally expect the two documents (problem=20 >statement and normative spec) to go through as a cluster (if=20 >not the problem statement first). >Given the difference in advancement, that may be difficult to=20 >achieve, though; if that is not possible, the spec will need=20 >to provide some context by itself. > >>=20 >http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-perreault-mboned-igmp-mld >-translation/ > >This document reveals that the IPv4 multicast address embedded=20 >into the IPv6 multicast address is indeed used as such by=20 >applications on the other side of the mapper (5.2.4). >My main comment is that the mboned-64-multicast-address-format=20 >document does not even hint that this might be the case, much=20 >less defines semantics that might be used by an application on=20 >the IPv6 side (and there have been other comments that=20 >applications are not even involved on the IPv6 side, which=20 >doesn't quite seem to mesh with this document). > >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-taylor-pim-v4v6-translation/ > >The latter is very clear in saying > > If an IPv6 > group address to be translated matches the format specified in that > document for an IPv4-embedded IPv6 ASM or SSM group address, the > corresponding IPv4 group address MUST be obtained by extracting the > low-order 32 bits from the IPv6 address. (The value of the sub- > group-id field is irrelevant to this procedure.)=20 > >So that supports my conjecture that the following is a strong,=20 >unstated requirement on the format document: >It MUST be possible to determine, by looking at a packet,=20 >whether the destination IP address in there is matching the=20 >format or not. > >This places an even stronger burden on the completeness of the=20 >specification than I initially thought. > >I would address this by describing the algorithm that gets=20 >used to determine whether there is a match by looking at the packet. >(The fact that I cannot determine this algorithm even by=20 >educated guessing is my other main comment.) > >Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten > >= From rja.lists@gmail.com Thu May 10 08:15:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8B921F8592 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 08:15:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JJZ+kWFTRKBW for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f172.google.com (mail-qc0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82A321F8584 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcsq13 with SMTP id q13so1438650qcs.31 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=oZJO+5aCi/wUesTzSunaTXadzVU9ymlKFz1RAFbo/N0=; b=WlWUY2w3pl7incXpzbW/losp7cHEOedLOa75j4TLF1+pmyWbqhKKdH3jBTxFxnjqzQ PX7Gw0n+eMMvvAvzILmc4WlnNjnZJ8Oiy3elt8skw53KRWr2I33CEnmrFRPO2+Roph4p A4fk3Ud40KRGpVZqmVIhIWHqLIpnMAaXwJ9TOFLhrUV0k9FDWWVp/uzSUVheNIhBQaAg Z+LK+xZoI3wZElS/ONuh3b8L/Ka0n/zr+P4sywPtyEEOUU89kQL+NQ7NLfGGI7Ha5gqi Vw/iZwsKfGTuvmedEDXFP5dFQ3LO1ph8B5xVFlbsuXSmMJ8yEmZzWlF/24qLQHquFpZM S6rQ== Received: by 10.224.42.16 with SMTP id q16mr12234418qae.70.1336662899310; Thu, 10 May 2012 08:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.11] (pool-96-225-134-175.nrflva.fios.verizon.net. [96.225.134.175]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ch15sm16882598qab.18.2012.05.10.08.14.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 May 2012 08:14:58 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:14:56 -0400 Message-Id: To: ipv6@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 15:15:00 -0000 Earlier, Bob Hinden wrote: > It is allowed and I don't want to start a big IPR thread here, > but I think the intent for this clause (no derivative works) > is for work that someone wants to present to a w.g. that > was not intended to be an IETF work item. My opinion is > that it's not appropriate for documents intended to become > an IETF work item as yours was. Bob, I disagree with that opinion. Sadly, plagiarism is increasingly common in the IETF, especially plagiarism where text is "borrowed" (i.e. improperly stolen) without even an after-the-fact acknowledgement. I've seen it happen several times now, in multiple IETF WGs. IETF leadership does not seem to feel empowered to do anything about it. For now, the "no derivative works" clause appears to be the only practical way to prevent one's I-D text from being stolen (again, sigh, commonly without any attribution) early in the idea formation and idea circulation stages. So while I agree that the "no derivative works" clause does not belong in an IETF WG document, I very strongly disagree that it is not appropriate for documents intended (i.e. in future) to become an IETF work item. Yours, Ran PS: My personal preference would be to eliminate ALL named document authors/editors from ALL IETF documents. That approach works very well for IEEE 802, has worked well for a very long time, and eliminates a number of long-standing (and growing) issues relating to IETF document authoring/editing/creation. (I understand that this last view is controversial with some IETF folks.) From ietfc@btconnect.com Thu May 10 10:42:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7D721F8683 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 10:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.607 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.607 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.566, BAYES_05=-1.11, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iFa4xIjIOAAY for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (ch1ehsobe006.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.181.186]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C15D21F8674 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail210-ch1-R.bigfish.com (10.43.68.237) by CH1EHSOBE017.bigfish.com (10.43.70.67) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:44 +0000 Received: from mail210-ch1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail210-ch1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3014C4087F; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:44 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -31 X-BigFish: PS-31(zz9371I542M1432N98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839hd24h304l) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.55.224.141; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:DB3PRD0702HT011.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received: from mail210-ch1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail210-ch1 (MessageSwitch) id 1336671761398595_14697; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1EHSMHS019.bigfish.com (snatpool2.int.messaging.microsoft.com [10.43.68.230]) by mail210-ch1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7EB240054; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3PRD0702HT011.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.55.224.141) by CH1EHSMHS019.bigfish.com (10.43.70.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:39 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.244.213) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.3.48.170) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.15.74.2; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:30 +0000 Message-ID: <005201cd2ecb$97d6fbe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Brian E Carpenter References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> <20120508173453.GA59571@elstar.local> Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:39:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.244.213] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:42:45 -0000 ---- Original Message ----- From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "6man" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 7:34 PM > On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 03:33:07PM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I'm not exactly seeing overwhelming consensus, but the loudest > > virtual hum was for > > > > http://[fe80::a-en1] > > > > Advantage: allows use of browser. > > Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > > > There was a suggestion to encourage a fix to ping (and traceroute?) to > > allow the "-" separator, and we must note that in any case, strange > > characters in the interface ID will always have to be %-encoded. > > I am concerned that the long-term result of this might be that we will > have to live with both % and - used as separators in various tools and > interfaces and that this might at the end even cause changes to other > tools and specifications that currently are just fine with using % as > a separator. Perhaps I am overly anxious but only future will tell. Yes, over the long term I could well see the use of % fading away, but I would regard that as a good thing:-) Tom Petch > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From brian@innovationslab.net Thu May 10 11:03:12 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0723221F86C8; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rST6TjBbhHHQ; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uillean.fuaim.com (uillean.fuaim.com [206.197.161.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D54521F86C6; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clairseach.fuaim.com (clairseach.fuaim.com [206.197.161.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uillean.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1566B88116; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clemson.local (nat-gwifi.jhuapl.edu [128.244.87.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clairseach.fuaim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAD3140039; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:03:05 -0400 From: Brian Haberman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lee, Yiu" Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:11:36 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:03:12 -0000 Hi Yiu, Let me ask a few questions... On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: > Hi Carsten, > > Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a point to > your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast > address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy > IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is broadcasted > in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? > There will be a function in the network which is statically configured > that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding > mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is > described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the > application and managed by the network. Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD protocols? How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to MLD? Regards, Brian From albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com Thu May 10 14:07:11 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D4021F85EE; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.740, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ZUGpa6bBJwo; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.64.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280AC21F85EA; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id q4AL76O5023124; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:06 -0700 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.ns.cs.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by slb-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id q4AL73TI023105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:04 -0700 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id q4AL77h4008319; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-MWHT-06.mw.nos.boeing.com (xch-mwht-06.mw.nos.boeing.com [134.57.113.166]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id q4AL77CR008249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 10 May 2012 14:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-MW-08V.mw.nos.boeing.com ([134.57.119.191]) by XCH-MWHT-06.mw.nos.boeing.com ([134.57.113.166]) with mapi; Thu, 10 May 2012 16:07:07 -0500 From: "Manfredi, Albert E" To: Brian Haberman Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 16:07:05 -0500 Subject: RE: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: Ac0u1y3MdTQ8TDpqSpiBmAH1uueWYQAGMaDQ Message-ID: References: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> In-Reply-To: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: No X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:11:35 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 21:07:11 -0000 > From: mboned-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mboned-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Brian Haberman > On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a > point to > > your question about how applications decide when to use this > multicast > > address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a > legacy > > IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is > broadcasted > > in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). >=20 > How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? My suggested answers would be: The IP-TV server provider's EPG web site provides the IP-TV with the multic= ast group address. > How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is > generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to > use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? The EPG web server detects that the client IP-TV is using IPv4, so it provi= des the IPv4 address. > > There will be a function in the network which is statically > configured > > that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding > > mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is > > described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the > > application and managed by the network. >=20 > Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD > protocols? >=20 > How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use > when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to > MLD? This has to be table lookup. The IPv6 prefix for these IPv4 multicast group= s is always the same, or the service provider has a table that specifies th= e IPv6 prefix for use with each IPv4 group. Bert From randy@psg.com Thu May 10 19:46:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E53211E8094 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 19:46:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JPxdCzAH9KLL for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 19:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2CD11E8072 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 19:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rair.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SSfsB-000NHx-5m; Fri, 11 May 2012 02:46:27 +0000 Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 16:46:25 -1000 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: In-Reply-To: References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , Fernando Gont , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 02:46:35 -0000 i have scanned and support adoption of the draft as a wg item. >> My understanding is that this is perfectly compatible with the IETF >> standards process, as long as this restriction is removed before posting >> as draft-ietf (for instance, I guess that's why it's allowed in the >> first place). (this restriction will be removed in the upcoming >> draft-ietf version, accordingly) > It is allowed and I don't want to start a big IPR thread here, but I > think the intent for this clause (no derivative works) is for work > that someone wants to present to a w.g. that was not intended to be an > IETF work item. My opinion is that it's not appropriate for documents > intended to become an IETF work item as yours was. i beg to differ. i have used the restrictive clause for years exactly as fernando states. if the wg does not adopt, then i may take *my* marbles and go home. randy From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Thu May 10 23:56:51 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D6F21F8628 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.195, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0XJaqnsSXLA for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2BB21F8622 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhn19 with SMTP id hn19so1154190wib.13 for ; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:56:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gWXpEhs/S8vAJch2cY3O5ZpwJ+I4CRtQppm5ldhmynA=; b=M9L7mQYVIrzhsrGp8f8/iV+GV+G8BopbJBXh41OZo5+Thhhy2B0PcwEqDFDKqznYHv l0YwyL7WJNCZYUbmbbOWS2CwKeFL+HQYYXXDjhYPZsamd1gPvk31JknfcC+HjVrUdBam w3S9jiuOzaGEg7aEp4zOlmU8OfTd6dQ5BBEQAAvDwC5n09xFAeAAzIhwAUaXBbxCK2wx MV/NuP+z8dTdJDa6fyAvAq4kcVUCh5fQnC2EiUr2dpMKvKfqFGBTUE1ShTeX+yVXz/Rf ekx2UlkyuT7kFts8QgSaEIx40l8+lhQkvOp96jcdeOiJBfAvo9jXQTjRELSxT/BcjbyI Hlcw== Received: by 10.180.100.2 with SMTP id eu2mr4721444wib.1.1336719409174; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-216-118.as13285.net. [2.102.216.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ez4sm8616357wid.3.2012.05.10.23.56.46 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 May 2012 23:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FACB82B.40707@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 07:56:43 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "t.petch" Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> <20120508173453.GA59571@elstar.local> <005201cd2ecb$97d6fbe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: <005201cd2ecb$97d6fbe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: 6man , Juergen Schoenwaelder X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 06:56:51 -0000 On 2012-05-10 11:39, t.petch wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > To: "Brian E Carpenter" > Cc: "6man" > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 7:34 PM >> On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 03:33:07PM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> I'm not exactly seeing overwhelming consensus, but the loudest >>> virtual hum was for >>> >>> http://[fe80::a-en1] >>> >>> Advantage: allows use of browser. >>> Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. >>> >>> There was a suggestion to encourage a fix to ping (and traceroute?) to >>> allow the "-" separator, and we must note that in any case, strange >>> characters in the interface ID will always have to be %-encoded. >> I am concerned that the long-term result of this might be that we will >> have to live with both % and - used as separators in various tools and >> interfaces and that this might at the end even cause changes to other >> tools and specifications that currently are just fine with using % as >> a separator. Perhaps I am overly anxious but only future will tell. > > Yes, over the long term I could well see the use of % fading away, > but I would regard that as a good thing:-) Would you want this to be stated as a formal update to RFC 4007? Brian From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Fri May 11 00:43:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D89121F85D4 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 00:43:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.867 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.867 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.218, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YMjIiU32Yp4a for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 00:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D958421F85C0 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 00:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.48]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D330020C69; Fri, 11 May 2012 09:43:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius3.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VxmB50uzpWcb; Fri, 11 May 2012 09:43:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F71C20CC9; Fri, 11 May 2012 09:43:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 858C31F027CA; Fri, 11 May 2012 09:43:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 09:43:22 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Brian E Carpenter , Benoit Claise Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Message-ID: <20120511074322.GA9686@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Brian E Carpenter , Benoit Claise , "t.petch" , 6man References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> <20120508173453.GA59571@elstar.local> <005201cd2ecb$97d6fbe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <4FACB82B.40707@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4FACB82B.40707@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: 6man , "t.petch" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 07:43:25 -0000 On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 07:56:43AM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2012-05-10 11:39, t.petch wrote: > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > > To: "Brian E Carpenter" > > Cc: "6man" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 7:34 PM > >> On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 03:33:07PM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> I'm not exactly seeing overwhelming consensus, but the loudest > >>> virtual hum was for > >>> > >>> http://[fe80::a-en1] > >>> > >>> Advantage: allows use of browser. > >>> Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > >>> > >>> There was a suggestion to encourage a fix to ping (and traceroute?) to > >>> allow the "-" separator, and we must note that in any case, strange > >>> characters in the interface ID will always have to be %-encoded. > >> I am concerned that the long-term result of this might be that we will > >> have to live with both % and - used as separators in various tools and > >> interfaces and that this might at the end even cause changes to other > >> tools and specifications that currently are just fine with using % as > >> a separator. Perhaps I am overly anxious but only future will tell. > > > > Yes, over the long term I could well see the use of % fading away, > > but I would regard that as a good thing:-) > > Would you want this to be stated as a formal update to RFC 4007? > There are other specifications that use "%" because they follow RFC 4007 such as RFC 6021 or RFC 4001 (I am sure there is more but I pick these because I know them well ;-). If we do something to the separator, I think not only an update to RFC 4007 needs to be declared, I think there also needs to be a plan what we do with documents such as RFC 6021 or RFC 4001. Is the idea to deprecate all those definitions, create new ones, have ripple effects on documents using those definitions? RFC 4001, for example, is referenced by 61 other RFCs - pretty much any recent MIB module representing an IP address. The idea that "%" fades away anytime soon is most likely an illusion. If we add "-" as a speparator, all we do is create a situation where there are two separators deployed and a situation lasting for many many years where some parts only understand "%", some only understand "-" and some do both. The question is whether we are all willing to pay this price for enabling zone indexes in URLs and complying to URN syntax purity rules. My understanding is that browsers were able to do what people wanted with "%" as a separator - its just that we can standardize this due to URL purity rules. Perhaps the real solution here is jump over the URL fence and find a way to standardize what browsers were able to do and what allowed people to cut and paste. Changing all occurances of "%" as a separator in our standards just to comply to URL purity rules may get the cost / benefit thing wrong. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From ietfc@btconnect.com Fri May 11 01:10:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81E121F8657 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 01:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.325 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.325 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.326, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vdK3lHU2zSEH for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 01:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe003.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.206]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A90B21F864A for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 01:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail57-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.238) by AM1EHSOBE001.bigfish.com (10.3.204.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:53 +0000 Received: from mail57-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail57-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8224E2604DD; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:53 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -34 X-BigFish: PS-34(zz9371I936eK542M1432N98dKzz1202hzz1033IL8275bh8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839hd24h304l) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.55.224.141; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:DB3PRD0702HT010.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI Received: from mail57-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail57-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1336723852576194_23912; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS016.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.247]) by mail57-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877912E0230; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3PRD0702HT010.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.55.224.141) by AM1EHSMHS016.bigfish.com (10.3.207.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:52 +0000 Received: from AMXPRD0610HT004.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (157.56.248.213) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.3.4.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.15.74.2; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:50 +0000 Message-ID: <007c01cd2f44$e5820f00$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Brian E Carpenter , Benoit Claise References: <4F9CF3A8.7000801@gmail.com> <4FA92EA3.1040802@gmail.com> <20120508173453.GA59571@elstar.local> <005201cd2ecb$97d6fbe0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <4FACB82B.40707@gmail.com> <20120511074322.GA9686@elstar.local> Subject: Re: Options for draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 09:08:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.248.213] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Cc: 6man X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 08:10:58 -0000 ---- Original Message ----- From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" To: "Brian E Carpenter" ; "Benoit Claise" Cc: "t.petch" ; "6man" Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 9:43 AM > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 07:56:43AM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 2012-05-10 11:39, t.petch wrote: > > > ---- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > > > To: "Brian E Carpenter" > > > Cc: "6man" > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 7:34 PM > > >> On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 03:33:07PM +0100, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > >>> I'm not exactly seeing overwhelming consensus, but the loudest > > >>> virtual hum was for > > >>> > > >>> http://[fe80::a-en1] > > >>> > > >>> Advantage: allows use of browser. > > >>> Disadvantage: doesn't allow simple cut and paste. > > >>> > > >>> There was a suggestion to encourage a fix to ping (and traceroute?) to > > >>> allow the "-" separator, and we must note that in any case, strange > > >>> characters in the interface ID will always have to be %-encoded. > > >> I am concerned that the long-term result of this might be that we will > > >> have to live with both % and - used as separators in various tools and > > >> interfaces and that this might at the end even cause changes to other > > >> tools and specifications that currently are just fine with using % as > > >> a separator. Perhaps I am overly anxious but only future will tell. > > > > > > Yes, over the long term I could well see the use of % fading away, > > > but I would regard that as a good thing:-) > > > > Would you want this to be stated as a formal update to RFC 4007? > > > > There are other specifications that use "%" because they follow RFC > 4007 such as RFC 6021 or RFC 4001 (I am sure there is more but I pick > these because I know them well ;-). If we do something to the > separator, I think not only an update to RFC 4007 needs to be > declared, I think there also needs to be a plan what we do with > documents such as RFC 6021 or RFC 4001. Is the idea to deprecate all > those definitions, create new ones, have ripple effects on documents > using those definitions? RFC 4001, for example, is referenced by 61 > other RFCs - pretty much any recent MIB module representing an IP > address. > > The idea that "%" fades away anytime soon is most likely an illusion. > If we add "-" as a speparator, all we do is create a situation where > there are two separators deployed and a situation lasting for many > many years where some parts only understand "%", some only understand > "-" and some do both. The question is whether we are all willing to > pay this price for enabling zone indexes in URLs and complying to URN > syntax purity rules. > > My understanding is that browsers were able to do what people wanted > with "%" as a separator - its just that we can standardize this due to > URL purity rules. Perhaps the real solution here is jump over the URL > fence and find a way to standardize what browsers were able to do and > what allowed people to cut and paste. Changing all occurances of "%" > as a separator in our standards just to comply to URL purity rules may > get the cost / benefit thing wrong. For me, it comes in the category of let the market place decide. I would not update RFC4007 at this point in time, but if, a few years down the track, the percent sign has been largely superseded, then yes, I would at that time, but not before. Equally, inserting what I take to be a missing 'not' into the paragraph of Juergen's, it may be that the market place decides that it does not care about URL purity rules and gives people what they want, what is obviously right to all but URL purists. In which case, we update RC3986 in a few years time:-) So I would go ahead with the I-D in question making Option 3 Normative, explaining the rejected options in a non-Normative appendix; I see this as the technically correct, not so user friendly approach, which, having gotten ourselves to where we are, is the best we can do. Then the marketplace will make its choice. We will, at least, have deprecated what could be worse options, which might arise if we do nothing. Tom Petch > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > From Tina.Tsou.Zouting@huawei.com Thu May 10 17:04:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC3E21F85D5; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.115, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmSj-cNTUGlE; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EEC21F8540; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO dfweml201-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.2.3-GA FastPath) with ESMTP id AFT93314; Thu, 10 May 2012 20:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DFWEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.151) by dfweml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.9.107) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:01:53 -0700 Received: from dfweml513-mbx.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.80]) by dfweml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.151]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Thu, 10 May 2012 17:01:54 -0700 From: Tina TSOU To: Brian Haberman , "Lee, Yiu" Subject: RE: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: AQHNLvGKIAZQ60ycT0KRymA2IFYsKpbEKgCw Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 00:01:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> In-Reply-To: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.24] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 May 2012 02:25:57 -0700 Cc: "mboned@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, The IESG , "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 00:04:09 -0000 Tina > -----Original Message----- > From: mboned-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mboned-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Brian Haberman > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:03 AM > To: Lee, Yiu > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols; > draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org; The IES= G; > mboned@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast- > address-format-01 >=20 > Hi Yiu, > Let me ask a few questions... >=20 > On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: > > Hi Carsten, > > > > Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a point > to > > your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast > > address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy > > IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is > broadcasted > > in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). >=20 > How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? >=20 > How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is > generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to > use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tsou-mboned-multrans-addr-acquisition= / Hope it helps. >=20 > > There will be a function in the network which is statically configured > > that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding > > mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is > > described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the > > application and managed by the network. >=20 > Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD protocols? >=20 > How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use > when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to MLD= ? >=20 > Regards, > Brian > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Thu May 10 23:41:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B625B21F85C7; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:41:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p+7xgwLZsboP; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE33F21F8504; Thu, 10 May 2012 23:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0F6BB3B42F4; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:41:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from puexch31.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.29]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DFB3335C05A; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:41:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.9]) by puexch31.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.29]) with mapi; Fri, 11 May 2012 08:41:47 +0200 From: To: Brian Haberman , "Lee, Yiu" Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 08:41:46 +0200 Subject: RE: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: Ac0u1ylbb6PYrpP+Shu5SiZ9UsuKCgAZ/sdA Message-ID: <94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E2A52C948@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> In-Reply-To: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.6.1.2065439, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2012.5.11.4230 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 May 2012 02:25:55 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 06:41:50 -0000 Dear Brian, Please see inline. Cheers, Med=20 >-----Message d'origine----- >De : Brian Haberman [mailto:brian@innovationslab.net]=20 >Envoy=E9 : jeudi 10 mai 2012 20:03 >=C0 : Lee, Yiu >Cc : Carsten Bormann; BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP;=20 >mboned@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; The IESG;=20 >apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols;=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org >Objet : Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of=20 >draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 > >Hi Yiu, > Let me ask a few questions... > >On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >> Hi Carsten, >> >> Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to=20 >add a point to >> your question about how applications decide when to use this=20 >multicast >> address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case=20 >where a legacy >> IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which=20 >is broadcasted >> in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). > >How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? Med: For this particular case (i.e., IPv4-only receiver over an IPv6 networ= k+IPv4 source), the same discovery mechanism as for an IPv4-only network wi= ll be used.=20 > >How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the=20 >content is=20 >generated by an IPv6 source?=20 Med: The source is IPv4 but the IPv4-enabled receiver is connected to an IP= v6-only network (e.g., http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-dslit= e-multicast-02#section-4). Does the source need to be configured to=20 >use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? Med: This address is an address representing the IPv4 source in an IPv6 net= work. The source is not required to be aware of that address. > >> There will be a function in the network which is statically=20 >configured >> that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding >> mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is >> described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the >> application and managed by the network. > >Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD=20 >protocols? Med: No. If the receiver is IPv6-enabled, it can build an IPv4-embedded IPv= 6 address if it has been configured with an MPREFIX64. > >How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast=20 >prefix to use=20 >when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report=20 >message to MLD? Med: By configuration. Please refer to Section 6 of address format draft or= http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-dslite-multicast-02#section= -5. > >Regards, >Brian >= From bob.hinden@gmail.com Fri May 11 13:12:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02E421F86EE for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtH8pgeT0F3O for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gg0-f172.google.com (mail-gg0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F6521F86DD for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ggnc4 with SMTP id c4so214863ggn.31 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=qGgq74huTcqRmjpSxiXa0xrQ6NqMbYVF9N3hcZ4IOTU=; b=V6YVvSc800MCrmkMCWmXYs05Tp1JT9OoZRY+05QPcm1mWUHshS22+dVpNBRaQ6Zkq8 Uy9IW6pebRvXz4iZfUaNQFUkNb4Ri0rQ1+GatbVxXK2yPrQNk4IPmwiZtdC7ycnAxwGM GsATNI9wg1uuxCXyZYg84pcpCh6zMfiTURjMo5kkngqxyL3URKd5CZcyG/j1mokbG8eu 0oMRhD5BmWdIh0O0nekTajHsMHB6JBnox+zYLtvhS4VBZ4xvqnjDuK16IsHN0ELY6Ixq oBq7+Y0I8f65gU0Y0rEKl6z4G81vGjKF1iK+NffSjPRKDATP5HTeoCC1wxgEZR/bjmyR sk9g== Received: by 10.50.85.196 with SMTP id j4mr2393844igz.30.1336767171291; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.140.217.99] ([80.187.201.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id em4sm4175496igc.16.2012.05.11.13.12.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 May 2012 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:12:28 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3646A828-DD8F-4A2C-B8F3-B9DE2FB4771D@gmail.com> References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , Bob Hinden , Fernando Gont , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 20:12:55 -0000 Randy, >>>=20 >> It is allowed and I don't want to start a big IPR thread here, but I >> think the intent for this clause (no derivative works) is for work >> that someone wants to present to a w.g. that was not intended to be = an >> IETF work item. My opinion is that it's not appropriate for = documents >> intended to become an IETF work item as yours was. >=20 > i beg to differ. i have used the restrictive clause for years exactly > as fernando states. if the wg does not adopt, then i may take *my* > marbles and go home. Thanks for saying it so clearly. I choose to not do that as do many = others. I allow my contributions to be used by others in the IETF = process. Bob From randy@psg.com Fri May 11 13:16:22 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64EA21F872A for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:16:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VG1LevqSUw6C for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E2D21F86F3 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rair.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SSwG8-000PDW-BO; Fri, 11 May 2012 20:16:16 +0000 Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 10:16:15 -1000 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: In-Reply-To: <3646A828-DD8F-4A2C-B8F3-B9DE2FB4771D@gmail.com> References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> <3646A828-DD8F-4A2C-B8F3-B9DE2FB4771D@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , Fernando Gont , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 20:16:22 -0000 >> i beg to differ. i have used the restrictive clause for years exactly >> as fernando states. if the wg does not adopt, then i may take *my* >> marbles and go home. > Thanks for saying it so clearly. I choose to not do that as do many > others. I allow my contributions to be used by others in the IETF > process. _in the ietf process_ i too allow other to use the works. but it ain't in the ietf process unless the wg adopts it. which is when i change the clause. randy From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Fri May 11 23:34:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB79521F8625 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 23:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.107, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wns2tLL75z1 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 23:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC189E8005 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 23:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibhn6 with SMTP id hn6so755408wib.13 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 23:34:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=USBe6vLHFqCdS/Ar2Wq+GB2Do0DYqomfes/290I2JwY=; b=OYIjDH9vIFleW15cE3EsqiUrXTH6imBxDaSLx87K9xe7m2qsMyc1a9MstEQFCasUgG ufxVrJEEzr/zBTYJ3K4NMBV5l7DJ09f4JOtEQ/43sOvUvi6DWHSNzdbR77w73mgrobDZ nFsdXkXqbdcj9Wrxoc2Ie13tvHD6mSvwCcqV9Augdp27Enlm55hwWUWGoN3jUoEF45aj 6aruZhBl3lkpGVV1Im3nOEQbsi1Nog3a65fgo5wesGMZ5NMZYNLIkJT6yN47v2WoVaRb 9C16TjLf3hXKj1RBsI9cT4rvr4vtO9opha7cCnfoHh9wgZ8T2fqnetnUdfH3D6GiLrUo E7Mg== Received: by 10.216.216.1 with SMTP id f1mr569513wep.24.1336804453454; Fri, 11 May 2012 23:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-216-118.as13285.net. [2.102.216.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fl2sm25964557wib.2.2012.05.11.23.34.11 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 May 2012 23:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FAE045C.7060007@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 07:34:04 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush Subject: Re: Consensus call on adopting: References: <60CF6942-0D99-422A-8BEB-87A98B7F233D@employees.org> <4FAB02D5.9090300@gont.com.ar> <3646A828-DD8F-4A2C-B8F3-B9DE2FB4771D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, IPv6 WG Mailing List , Bob Hinden , Fernando Gont , draft-gont-6man-stable-privacy-addresses@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 06:34:15 -0000 On 2012-05-11 21:16, Randy Bush wrote: >>> i beg to differ. i have used the restrictive clause for years exactly >>> as fernando states. if the wg does not adopt, then i may take *my* >>> marbles and go home. >> Thanks for saying it so clearly. I choose to not do that as do many >> others. I allow my contributions to be used by others in the IETF >> process. > > _in the ietf process_ i too allow other to use the works. but it ain't > in the ietf process unless the wg adopts it. which is when i change the > clause. > > randy fwiw I agree that this is quite legitimate. I've never done it, but I can imagine circumstances in which I might do so. Brian From corporate.uniform@gmail.com Sun May 13 16:41:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B51C21F8532 for ; Sun, 13 May 2012 16:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftKfmmk8lwQk for ; Sun, 13 May 2012 16:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18B721F8512 for ; Sun, 13 May 2012 16:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbeh20 with SMTP id eh20so8021553obb.31 for ; Sun, 13 May 2012 16:41:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; 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isetia@kodak.com, isfadillah@yahoo.com, isforum@explode.unsw.edu.au, isg@cbn.net.id, isg85@cbn.net.id, isg-wpg@egroups.com, ishack2000@yahoo.com, isijkt@centrin.net.id, isin@dnet.net.id, isindo@cbn.net.id, isitex@centrin.net.id, iskaba@cbn.net.id, iskandar@internusa.co.id, iskandar@pusdata.dprin.go.id, iskd@cabi.net.id, iski@cbn.net.id, iski@centrin.net.id, isktex@bumi.net.id, isla.winarto@jakarta.edu.au, islahnet@yahoogroups.com, is-lam@isnet.org, is-lam@milis.isnet.org, islam_inside@yahoogroups.com, islamcity@yahoogroups.com, islamjamaah@yahoogroups.com, islam-kini@yahoogroups.com, islamkristen@yahoogroups.com, islam-net1@yahoogroups.com, islampembebasan@listbot.com, island-a@rad.net.id, island-b@rad.net.id, islejip@isl.co.id, ismawa@cbn.net.id, ismed.sitepu@divatel.co.id, ismet@cbn.net.id, ism-jkt@dnet.net.id, ismono@egama.net, isn@industrisandang.co.id, isn@infosecnews.org, isnetbl@egroups.com, iso_pd@yahoo.com, iso2000@cbn.net.id, iso2000@centrin.net.id, iso297@dnet.net.id, isoc-members-announce@elists.isoc.org, isoc-membersdiscuss@elists.isoc.org, isopanel@isopanel.co.id, isp@harcomangga2.com, isp@magga2.co.id, isp@mangga2.co.id, ispak@cbn.net.id, ispatind@ispat.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=e89a8f5029067a435f04bff38293 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 13 May 2012 23:19:07 -0700 X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 23:41:35 -0000 --e89a8f5029067a435f04bff38293 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f5029067a435a04bff38291 --e89a8f5029067a435a04bff38291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Customer, Kami menerima pesanan berbagai macam flashdisk & mouse min pesanan : - flashdisk 100pcs ( kapasitas 1 GB sampai 16GB) - mouse 500pcs hubungi kami untuk info lebih lengkap locanojakarta@yahoo.com -- If you have any question, pls don't hesitate to contact with us. best regards LOCANO -- If you have any question, pls don't hesitate to contact with us. best regards LOCANO -- If you have any question, pls don't hesitate to contact with us. best regards LOCANO --e89a8f5029067a435a04bff38291 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Customer,<= br>
Kami menerima pesanan berbagai macam flashdisk & mouse

min pesanan :
  • flashdisk 100pcs (=A0kapasitas 1 GB sampai 16GB)
  • mouse= 500pcs=A0
hubungi kami untuk info lebih lengkap




--
If you have any question, pls don't hesitate to contact with us.

best regards
LOCANO








--
If you have any question,= pls don't hesitate to contact with us.

best regards
LOCANO <= br>



--
If you have any quest= ion, pls don't hesitate to contact with us.

best regards
LOCA= NO
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[127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571C321F844A for ; Mon, 14 May 2012 05:37:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uc8sWwA18FKa for ; Mon, 14 May 2012 05:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f44.google.com (mail-pz0-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6478621F8449 for ; Mon, 14 May 2012 05:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dacx6 with SMTP id x6so6061697dac.31 for ; Mon, 14 May 2012 05:37:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bxwwfBJ4SVstLiP5ZeNfC3L2m/mWWPMNGseUdh2qYE0=; b=zStfitBeFNEiHc6/pl1Dm1R6FCyaTjjM1ZFWqDa4VNs1Ik1FgOHQayg0gCDElghtho QiJknIxwY/9yNupktgiaVwhSc1Se+q5X6OZ899I6zHbiALdqF96sNfrSEEvwQwtc00Ed A8ps62VXNlcGNxVak95sl6HmozXzLrQhwpS3RJCNBJAIMJmWGaPYEvyFndyQfopKUYCD 64mrr89GVoRxCRTVx3AT5i57c3R//5sCThebKOuEHaoopgQjbTyL+Q3yV565VT1dWV9d WO7C7Ego1HDtIScmAgYYn7vuuaZIi75ysx2fJoo9KGWcz1P/g0zNs5cLWJB/L3nZ7g4Y wmcw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.241.69 with SMTP id wg5mr16483362pbc.148.1336999043045; Mon, 14 May 2012 05:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.38.199 with HTTP; Mon, 14 May 2012 05:37:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1335540450.12143.0.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> References: <1334871165.15947.2.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> <3556F78D-A80E-4975-8E87-3138E3DFCCAA@employees.org> <1335540450.12143.0.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 15:37:23 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: question on RDNSS, RFC 6106 part 5.1 From: Teemu Savolainen To: Pavel Simerda Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b339c59069a4804bffe59b6 Cc: ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 12:37:24 -0000 --047d7b339c59069a4804bffe59b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, So how do we proceed from here? Would it be enough to discuss and agree an errata for the RFC? Doing full RFC6106bis might be overkill. Chairs? Best regards, Teemu 2012/4/27 Pavel Simerda > Hello, > > my proposition is the same as Teemu's or very similar. > > 1) I propose to change the default Lifetime from > [MaxRtrAdvInterval, 2*MaxRtrAdvInterva] to a single > agreed-upon recommended default value. Almost nobody > would need to change this default value. > > 5*MaxRtrAdvInterval is IMO a good value to start with. This should > be enough to avoid the need to send RS. > > 2) I propose to add at least some best practice about router > solicitations. Typically, RS should only be used as a last resort. > > I suggest to start sending RS at 0.8*Lifetime +/- 0.1*Lifetime (if > sending RS at all) and repeat let's say every 10-20 seconds. > > Note: > > Please remember that wireless links *sometimes* lose packets. Please > remember that wireless links *often* lose multicast packets. Even > some ethernet switches do. > > Example: > > MaxRtrAdvInterval =3D 10 minutes > AdvRDNSSLifetime =3D (Default) 5*MaxRtrAdvInterval =3D 50 minutes > 0.8*Lifetime =3D 40 minutes > 0.1*Lifetime =3D 5 minutes > > Let's simplify the situation and act as if MaxRtrAdvInterval is the > absolute interval (it is not!). > > 00:00 Router Advertisement, Lifetime =3D 50 minutes > 00:10 Lifetime =3D 40 minutes (it could already time out according to the > current RFC) > 00:10 Router Advertisement (lost) > 00:20 Lifetime =3D 30 minutes > 00:20 Router Advertisement (lost again) > 00:30 Lifetime =3D 20 minutes > 00:30 Router Advertisement (lost the third time!) > 00:35 Lifetime =3D 15 minutes > 00:35 This is the first time RS can be sent with this best practice > (the last time is 00:45, counted like that 0.8*00:50 +/- 0.1*00:50) > 00:35 Router Solicitation > > Since then, router solicitations would be issued regularly until > client recieves RA with RDNSS, connection is cancelled by user or: > > 00:50 Lifetime =3D 0 > 00:50 RDNSS expired > > Note: > > It is not perfect. The concept of finitely valid RDNSS is quite new. > There is an open question, when to consider RDNSS information lost. It > could be: > > 1) Last RDNSS from RAs expired. > 2) Last IPv6 RDNSS expired (RDNSS or DHCPv6) > 3) Last RDNSS lost (IPv6 or IPv4) > > Pavel Simerda > > > On Thu, 2012-04-26 at 14:00 +0200, Ole Tr=C3=B8an wrote: > > Pavel, > > > > I concur with your description of the problem. > > do you have a proposal for how it can be solved? > > > > Best regards, > > Ole > > > > > > On Apr 19, 2012, at 23:32 , Pavel =C5=A0imerda wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I'm starting my work on linux NetworkManager. I've been following > > > several bugreports during the recent months that all lead to problems > > > with maintaining the list of recursive nameservers. > > > > > > I've already spent quite some time analyzing RDNSS problems and I cam= e > > > to a conclusion that the problem actually lives in the RFC itself. > > > > > > Please look at section 5.1. in RFC 6106. It states: > > > > > > MaxRtrAdvInterval <=3D Lifetime <=3D 2*MaxRtrAdvInterval > > > > > > Considering MaxRtrAdvInterval the maximum time between RAs, setting > > > Lifetime to MaxRtrAdvInterval IMO constitutes a race condition. > > > Moreover, any Lifetime in this interval can timeout with just one or > two > > > lost RAs. > > > > > > This makes RA-based IPv6-only networks drop RDNSS regularly. In many > > > implementations IPv6 and IPv4 are bound together so that if one of th= em > > > fails, the whole link is restarted. This is also the case in > > > NetworkManager. > > > > > > In the current situation, it's not advisable to use RFC 6106 in > > > production because it can cause problems even to IPv4 applications. > > > > > > In the real world, radvd uses Lifetime=3DMaxRtrAdvInterval by default= and > > > NetworkManager internally adds 10s to the lifetime, that only helps t= o > > > avoid the race condition but not lost packets that are common on > > > wireless networks. > > > > > > I appreciate any help to get this right both in the standards and in > the > > > software. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Pavel =C5=A0imerda > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --047d7b339c59069a4804bffe59b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

So how do we proceed from here?

Would it be enough to di= scuss and agree an errata for the RFC? Doing full RFC6106bis might be overk= ill.

Chairs?

Best regards,

Teemu

2012/4/27 Pavel Simerda <pavlix@pavlix.net>
Hello,

my proposition is the same as Teemu's or very similar.

1) I propose to change the default Lifetime from
[MaxRtrAdvInterval, 2*MaxRtrAdvInterva] to a single
agreed-upon recommended default value. Almost nobody
would need to change this default value.

5*MaxRtrAdvInterval is IMO a good value to start with. This should
be enough to avoid the need to send RS.

2) I propose to add at least some best practice about router
solicitations. Typically, RS should only be used as a last resort.

I suggest to start sending RS at 0.8*Lifetime +/- 0.1*Lifetime (if
sending RS at all) and repeat let's say every 10-20 seconds.

Note:

Please remember that wireless links *sometimes* lose packets. Please
remember that wireless links *often* lose multicast packets. Even
some ethernet switches do.

Example:

MaxRtrAdvInterval =3D 10 minutes
AdvRDNSSLifetime =3D (Default) 5*MaxRtrAdvInterval =3D 50 minutes
0.8*Lifetime =3D 40 minutes
0.1*Lifetime =3D 5 minutes

Let's simplify the situation and act as if MaxRtrAdvInterval is the
absolute interval (it is not!).

00:00 Router Advertisement, Lifetime =3D 50 minutes
00:10 Lifetime =3D 40 minutes (it could already time out according to the current RFC)
00:10 Router Advertisement (lost)
00:20 Lifetime =3D 30 minutes
00:20 Router Advertisement (lost again)
00:30 Lifetime =3D 20 minutes
00:30 Router Advertisement (lost the third time!)
00:35 Lifetime =3D 15 minutes
00:35 This is the first time RS can be sent with this best practice
(the last time is 00:45, counted like that 0.8*00:50 +/- 0.1*00:50)
00:35 Router Solicitation

Since then, router solicitations would be issued regularly until
client recieves RA with RDNSS, connection is cancelled by user or:

00:50 Lifetime =3D 0
00:50 RDNSS expired

Note:

It is not perfect. The concept of finitely valid RDNSS is quite new.
There is an open question, when to consider RDNSS information lost. It
could be:

1) Last RDNSS from RAs expired.
2) Last IPv6 RDNSS expired (RDNSS or DHCPv6)
3) Last RDNSS lost (IPv6 or IPv4)

Pavel Simerda


On Thu, 2012-04-26 at 14:00 +0200, Ole Tr=C3=B8an wrote:
> Pavel,
>
> I concur with your description of the problem.
> do you have a proposal for how it can be solved?
>
> Best regards,
> Ole
>
>
> On Apr 19, 2012, at 23:32 , Pavel =C5=A0imerda wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm starting my work on linux NetworkManager. I've been f= ollowing
> > several bugreports during the recent months that all lead to prob= lems
> > with maintaining the list of recursive nameservers.
> >
> > I've already spent quite some time analyzing RDNSS problems a= nd I came
> > to a conclusion that the problem actually lives in the RFC itself= .
> >
> > Please look at section 5.1. in RFC 6106. It states:
> >
> > MaxRtrAdvInterval <=3D Lifetime <=3D 2*MaxRtrAdvInterval > >
> > Considering MaxRtrAdvInterval the maximum time between RAs, setti= ng
> > Lifetime to MaxRtrAdvInterval IMO constitutes a race condition. > > Moreover, any Lifetime in this interval can timeout with just one= or two
> > lost RAs.
> >
> > This makes RA-based IPv6-only networks drop RDNSS regularly. In m= any
> > implementations IPv6 and IPv4 are bound together so that if one o= f them
> > fails, the whole link is restarted. This is also the case in
> > NetworkManager.
> >
> > In the current situation, it's not advisable to use RFC 6106 = in
> > production because it can cause problems even to IPv4 application= s.
> >
> > In the real world, radvd uses Lifetime=3DMaxRtrAdvInterval by def= ault and
> > NetworkManager internally adds 10s to the lifetime, that only hel= ps to
> > avoid the race condition but not lost packets that are common on<= br> > > wireless networks.
> >
> > I appreciate any help to get this right both in the standards and= in the
> > software.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Pavel =C5=A0imerda
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= ---
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6=
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>



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--047d7b339c59069a4804bffe59b6-- From maildanrl@googlemail.com Tue May 15 00:47:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E2621F8790 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbt5odncp6aq for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f44.google.com (mail-pz0-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5953C21F863E for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dacx6 with SMTP id x6so7196311dac.31 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:47:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=SOqORwzqP2MLvO6kF5LECo1epflxtF8Iht8qxiDi62k=; b=rPtQVHJxI18aFqYR85o+toAHshgA7jo5B4ln1Bi2L3Ie4gaOL2YUbKwfnxcIA5vdNO d7/KZtlmKgwwRBKLiIKooH8q+0HpaRmiuPl72HRKR5vTQnlIgq88VHya1iDQy0L1SLti aW/kJJW5056JOVwqwEUuXrOwjUKSBKnYuqS+ModKfl3NijBYSG1Q5K7Ge6mBcaeTOcuN wR05HIuLYziP+olS2WAWqgJCl9gErhJ6n/bchJsCFavgmu3BJsSFXiGTdQu/mlfzvw52 NAjEELUmpEy/WdFm6PN6JB/GsiA905x6ruIjBckumspX8gIyfqPbWvsJ2GqbEOpk7lfW 1KuA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.129.131 with SMTP id nw3mr2653414pbb.150.1337068071115; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.52.37 with HTTP; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:47:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1334871165.15947.2.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> <3556F78D-A80E-4975-8E87-3138E3DFCCAA@employees.org> <1335540450.12143.0.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 09:47:50 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: question on RDNSS, RFC 6106 part 5.1 From: Dan Luedtke To: Teemu Savolainen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 07:47:52 -0000 > Since then, router solicitations would be issued regularly until > client recieves RA with RDNSS, connection is cancelled by user or: We have a setup here were we have 50+ clients on some access points with about 100 access points distributed over the campus, all merged into one network. Let's say we have about 3k clients in the network which is a good average value. Let us further assume we loose these three RA before they reach the access points, so that no access point sends them out. (Of course they usually get lost on some access points, not on all at the same time, but it might happen in some situations). Since not all clients connected to the network at the same time, we assume that one third of them hasn't received the third RA in a row at some point in time. At this particular point at least 1k clients start sending out RS in a short period of time, at least until the first RA makes it through. A way of distributing this RS on a time scale might be a good idea. At some point we should use a random value to make the hosts delay sending RS with different values Long story short: Please include Teemu's suggestion (randomization) in a possible errata. IMHO this must be part of it! FYI: Although I see the race condition and I would also like to see an errata on this issue, I'd like to point anyone having problems with lossy links to RFC 1256, page 3. > Links that suffer high packet loss rates or frequent partitioning are accommodated by increasing the rate of advertisements, rather than increasing the number of solicitations that hosts are permitted to send. regards Dan -- Dan Luedtke http://www.danrl.de From yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com Mon May 14 13:50:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DADA21F8874; Mon, 14 May 2012 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.342, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfPIo8n0CVJx; Mon, 14 May 2012 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5E521F8851; Mon, 14 May 2012 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.17273847; Mon, 14 May 2012 14:35:14 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::a5b0:e5c4:df1b:2367]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0283.003; Mon, 14 May 2012 16:50:05 -0400 From: "Lee, Yiu" To: Brian Haberman Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: AQHNMhMj+U0VWu2r9ka0j7sgZj2IEA== Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:50:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.2.120421 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.73] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3419859004_1695367" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:49:20 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:50:09 -0000 --B_3419859004_1695367 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Brian, Sorry for getting back late. I read Bert's answers to your questions. His answers are inline with my answers. Most information are statically configured. For example: Ch1 is statically configured to 224.1.2.3 via OOB mechanism. If the STB is IPv4 only, it will only use IPv4 mcast address. It won't use the address format defined in this draft. In my mind, the most common deployment will use the same IPv6 prefix which will be statically configured in the AF. Regards, Yiu On 5/10/12 2:03 PM, "Brian Haberman" wrote: >Hi Yiu, > Let me ask a few questions... > >On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >> Hi Carsten, >> >> Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a point >>to >> your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast >> address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy >> IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is >>broadcasted >> in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). > >How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? > >How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is >generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to >use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? > >> There will be a function in the network which is statically configured >> that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding >> mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is >> described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the >> application and managed by the network. > >Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD protocols? > >How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use >when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to MLD? > >Regards, >Brian --B_3419859004_1695367 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIVlwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIViDCCFYQCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC EzAwggUzMIIEG6ADAgECAhBTm5vcGTrcIPdnvVTe3rDkMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGTMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxm b3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDE5MDcGA1UEAxMwQ09NT0RPIENsaWVu dCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgU2VjdXJlIEVtYWlsIENBMB4XDTEyMDIxNDAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDIxMzIzNTk1OVowKjEoMCYGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYZeWl1X2xlZUBjYWJsZS5jb21jYXN0 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Agf7vlPV5QTY; Mon, 14 May 2012 13:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B6321F88D0; Mon, 14 May 2012 13:56:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=stig@cisco.com; l=2436; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1337028976; x=1338238576; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V1tSm+T2ut33g9eQbqN22VxboLXucE+8L6KoN0ebAgo=; b=YGKJANvw5LZKtyBqXzzLULi1TjeigsaKwZMJKCbLFNo0lKQAJH+WzTe9 11zkeOpe2GLqVV2gyDfbW5Wnj1UfsO0kFoqH4K5TqeGT4glOnxmxfc6v5 IK7AfNaQQSRaYrBMxjaXNDxtzvsaAeh6hcByQgR6a8RUgJmrjYs9mLlcd o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQFACBwsU+rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABEgx6wVoEHghUBAQEDARIBJUABEAsYCRYPCQMCAQIBRQYNAQUCAQEeh2cEmwGfdIsahgAEiGSNGYV1iGKBaYMJ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,588,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="44677530" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 May 2012 20:56:16 +0000 Received: from [10.154.208.109] ([10.154.208.109]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4EKuGRW005062; Mon, 14 May 2012 20:56:16 GMT Message-ID: <4FB17170.8090203@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 13:56:16 -0700 From: Stig Venaas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lee, Yiu" Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:49:20 -0700 Cc: Brian Haberman , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:56:17 -0000 On 5/14/2012 1:50 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Sorry for getting back late. I read Bert's answers to your questions. His > answers are inline with my answers. Most information are statically > configured. For example: Ch1 is statically configured to 224.1.2.3 via OOB > mechanism. If the STB is IPv4 only, it will only use IPv4 mcast address. > It won't use the address format defined in this draft. In my mind, the > most common deployment will use the same IPv6 prefix which will be > statically configured in the AF. Right, so that was my main concern with the draft. Is static configuration like this sufficient, or are there more generic cases where one needs to know that it is translated from IPv4 without a priori configuration. The flag bit (or a well-known prefix) is only needed in the latter case. I know there were some scenarios where someone found the latter to be advantageous though. Stig > > Regards, > Yiu > > > On 5/10/12 2:03 PM, "Brian Haberman" wrote: > >> Hi Yiu, >> Let me ask a few questions... >> >> On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >>> Hi Carsten, >>> >>> Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a point >>> to >>> your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast >>> address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy >>> IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is >>> broadcasted >>> in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). >> >> How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? >> >> How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is >> generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to >> use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? >> >>> There will be a function in the network which is statically configured >>> that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding >>> mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is >>> described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the >>> application and managed by the network. >> >> Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD protocols? >> >> How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use >> when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to MLD? >> >> Regards, >> Brian From yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com Mon May 14 14:06:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0964E21F88D7; Mon, 14 May 2012 14:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l40zxFKYPQba; Mon, 14 May 2012 14:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40C821F88D0; Mon, 14 May 2012 14:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by pacdcavaout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.12433251; Mon, 14 May 2012 16:58:01 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::a5b0:e5c4:df1b:2367]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0283.003; Mon, 14 May 2012 17:06:03 -0400 From: "Lee, Yiu" To: Stig Venaas Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Topic: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 Thread-Index: AQHNMhVebHEh+DeZCkG2+0xN2kXo1Q== Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:06:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4FB17170.8090203@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.2.120421 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.71] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3419859958_1782930" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:49:20 -0700 Cc: Brian Haberman , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:06:09 -0000 --B_3419859958_1782930 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Stig, Right. I explain only one use case. Other may find the latter case is more attractive for their deployments. This address format should enable the dynamic use case as well. Yiu On 5/14/12 4:56 PM, "Stig Venaas" wrote: >On 5/14/2012 1:50 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >> Hi Brian, >> >> Sorry for getting back late. I read Bert's answers to your questions. >>His >> answers are inline with my answers. Most information are statically >> configured. For example: Ch1 is statically configured to 224.1.2.3 via >>OOB >> mechanism. If the STB is IPv4 only, it will only use IPv4 mcast address. >> It won't use the address format defined in this draft. In my mind, the >> most common deployment will use the same IPv6 prefix which will be >> statically configured in the AF. > >Right, so that was my main concern with the draft. Is static >configuration like this sufficient, or are there more generic cases >where one needs to know that it is translated from IPv4 without a >priori configuration. The flag bit (or a well-known prefix) is only >needed in the latter case. I know there were some scenarios where >someone found the latter to be advantageous though. > >Stig > >> >> Regards, >> Yiu >> >> >> On 5/10/12 2:03 PM, "Brian Haberman" wrote: >> >>> Hi Yiu, >>> Let me ask a few questions... >>> >>> On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >>>> Hi Carsten, >>>> >>>> Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a >>>>point >>>> to >>>> your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast >>>> address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy >>>> IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is >>>> broadcasted >>>> in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). >>> >>> How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? >>> >>> How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is >>> generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to >>> use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? >>> >>>> There will be a function in the network which is statically configured >>>> that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding >>>> mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is >>>> described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the >>>> application and managed by the network. >>> >>> Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD >>>protocols? >>> >>> How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use >>> when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to >>>MLD? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Brian > --B_3419859958_1782930 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIVlwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIViDCCFYQCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC EzAwggUzMIIEG6ADAgECAhBTm5vcGTrcIPdnvVTe3rDkMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGTMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxm b3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDE5MDcGA1UEAxMwQ09NT0RPIENsaWVu dCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgU2VjdXJlIEVtYWlsIENBMB4XDTEyMDIxNDAwMDAwMFoX DTEzMDIxMzIzNTk1OVowKjEoMCYGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYZeWl1X2xlZUBjYWJsZS5jb21jYXN0 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ESMTP id lkw93ttE9f3z for ; Mon, 14 May 2012 16:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F78B21F890C for ; Mon, 14 May 2012 16:04:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=bLSU0YCZ c=1 sm=0 a=aIgkrZOPZtJQBHPFbnUF7Q==:17 a=lrOb0CNyTTcA:10 a=kcqHJ7X1LM4A:10 a=Smtd_ri4umAA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=NEYVx94OI7GNUqnt_noA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Tbolb3iFg0-sIzuC:21 a=FmjFoAmx2F_-GF6t:21 a=aIgkrZOPZtJQBHPFbnUF7Q==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 76.88.32.44 Received: from [76.88.32.44] ([76.88.32.44:60892] helo=spandex.luckie.org.nz) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 28/E2-29249-09F81BF4; Mon, 14 May 2012 23:04:48 +0000 Received: from client65-45.sdsc.edu ([132.249.65.45] helo=mylar.luckie.org.nz) by spandex.luckie.org.nz with esmtpsa (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1SU4Js-0006kF-0x for ipv6@ietf.org; Mon, 14 May 2012 16:04:48 -0700 Message-ID: <4FB18F90.9040407@luckie.org.nz> Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:04:48 -0700 From: Matthew Luckie User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120501 Thunderbird/12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipv6@ietf.org Subject: IPv6 neighbour discovery and link local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:49:20 -0700 X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 23:04:50 -0000 Hi Should a host reply to a neighbour discovery message if the source address is a link-local address? I read RFC 4861 and did not find anything suggesting that a link-local source address is not allowed. Matthew From hesham@elevatemobile.com Tue May 15 00:58:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4741721F8603 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:58:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSUQCvGR0PkP for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-1.servers.netregistry.net (smtp.netregistry.net [202.124.241.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47ADB21F8600 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 00:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [60.242.128.199] (helo=[192.168.0.4]) by smtp-1.servers.netregistry.net protocol: esmtpa (Exim 4.69 #1 (Debian)) id 1SUCda-0008OK-D8; Tue, 15 May 2012 17:57:42 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.14.0.111121 Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:57:39 +1000 Subject: Re: IPv6 neighbour discovery and link local addresses From: Hesham Soliman To: Matthew Luckie , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: IPv6 neighbour discovery and link local addresses In-Reply-To: <4FB18F90.9040407@luckie.org.nz> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-User: hesham@elevatemobile.com X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 07:58:35 -0000 >Hi > >Should a host reply to a neighbour discovery message if the source >address is a link-local address? => Yes. Hesham >I read RFC 4861 and did not find >anything suggesting that a link-local source address is not allowed. > >Matthew >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >ipv6@ietf.org >Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >-------------------------------------------------------------------- From pavlix@pavlix.net Tue May 15 01:54:33 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50C921F8912 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 01:54:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.954, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jot8qc5-Zusv for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 01:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fox.pavlix.net (fox.pavlix.net [84.246.161.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D6A21F890B for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 01:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.100.33] (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by fox.pavlix.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA6C71760684; Tue, 15 May 2012 10:54:28 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=pavlix.net; s=default; t=1337072068; bh=zrYo5z7HHmzti8/oVd9E3b5NSLm7Ai+Cdyn3eu7mr1A=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version; b=UUX2N+2nGkGKr2sDRClQZUjB3lV5wFcr3HB82sHP6sc25QLsjUrw6U7a1NHjtgRN8 uYY/wn65k2Ah+DfMhs0Wtpdrfmp59hzTlSQ/pEUAcZRUxVky23TmmkNhNhlIau8FY3 CRwK6xvh+eYvR3UHCY+GIPptFQrh/T8ot6cbdzzM= Message-ID: <1337072068.3168.3.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> Subject: Re: question on RDNSS, RFC 6106 part 5.1 From: Pavel Simerda To: Dan Luedtke Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 10:54:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <1334871165.15947.2.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> <3556F78D-A80E-4975-8E87-3138E3DFCCAA@employees.org> <1335540450.12143.0.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.4.1 (3.4.1-2.fc17) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 08:54:33 -0000 On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 09:47 +0200, Dan Luedtke wrote: > > Since then, router solicitations would be issued regularly until > > client recieves RA with RDNSS, connection is cancelled by user or: > > We have a setup here were we have 50+ clients on some access points > with about 100 access points distributed over the campus, all merged > into one network. Let's say we have about 3k clients in the network > which is a good average value. Let us further assume we loose these > three RA before they reach the access points, so that no access point > sends them out. (Of course they usually get lost on some access > points, not on all at the same time, but it might happen in some > situations). Since not all clients connected to the network at the > same time, we assume that one third of them hasn't received the third > RA in a row at some point in time. At this particular point at least > 1k clients start sending out RS in a short period of time, at least > until the first RA makes it through. A way of distributing this RS on > a time scale might be a good idea. At some point we should use a > random value to make the hosts delay sending RS with different values > > Long story short: Please include Teemu's suggestion (randomization) in > a possible errata. IMHO this must be part of it! I agree. We definitely consider this but also other problems. Looking forward to publishing the ideas and discussing it here. Just a note. Current code of NetworkManager for Linux sends RS non-randomized 5 seconds before expiration. Pavel > FYI: Although I see the race condition and I would also like to see an > errata on this issue, I'd like to point anyone having problems with > lossy links to RFC 1256, page 3. > > Links that suffer high packet loss rates or frequent partitioning are accommodated by increasing the rate of advertisements, rather than increasing the number of solicitations that hosts are permitted to send. > > regards > Dan From pavlix@pavlix.net Tue May 15 03:10:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A203721F8793 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 03:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.781 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.781 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.818, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogt6Do+WKu5p for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 03:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fox.pavlix.net (fox.pavlix.net [84.246.161.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9B021F864A for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 03:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.100.33] (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by fox.pavlix.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F8451760684; Tue, 15 May 2012 12:10:21 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=pavlix.net; s=default; t=1337076621; bh=r/IuXF9+kHdvKaXXDB4+b+4oYXJxe40wNpb6qbRuxd8=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version; b=IcZe3xvfKX5DvXU5WiQsXjrOTpzFFesdBLWlk05oS3Q7tMY9kgWuxif3+Fx9szMgG mdHoHd1KS1qeDViAewPMgpE84XSKFFaUWYiZKe1/CUw6mLJJy8cAAaq2k90POWrzCo ujBy5Q5DwNUCQIuh/SIjogzkR1mxn0YWI8JZuyO8= Message-ID: <1337076618.3168.7.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> Subject: Re: question on RDNSS, RFC 6106 part 5.1 From: Pavel Simerda To: Teemu Savolainen Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 12:10:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <1334871165.15947.2.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> <3556F78D-A80E-4975-8E87-3138E3DFCCAA@employees.org> <1335540450.12143.0.camel@dragon.pavlix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.4.1 (3.4.1-2.fc17) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Fernando Gont , ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 10:10:25 -0000 I believe Fernando will forgive me. For the curious, an *unofficial* version of our work can be found here: http://git.pavlix.net/gitweb/?p=rdnss.git;a=summary Cheers, Pavel On Mon, 2012-05-14 at 15:37 +0300, Teemu Savolainen wrote: > Hi, > > So how do we proceed from here? > > Would it be enough to discuss and agree an errata for the RFC? Doing > full RFC6106bis might be overkill. > > Chairs? > > Best regards, > > Teemu > > 2012/4/27 Pavel Simerda > Hello, > > my proposition is the same as Teemu's or very similar. > > 1) I propose to change the default Lifetime from > [MaxRtrAdvInterval, 2*MaxRtrAdvInterva] to a single > agreed-upon recommended default value. Almost nobody > would need to change this default value. > > 5*MaxRtrAdvInterval is IMO a good value to start with. This > should > be enough to avoid the need to send RS. > > 2) I propose to add at least some best practice about router > solicitations. Typically, RS should only be used as a last > resort. > > I suggest to start sending RS at 0.8*Lifetime +/- 0.1*Lifetime > (if > sending RS at all) and repeat let's say every 10-20 seconds. > > Note: > > Please remember that wireless links *sometimes* lose packets. > Please > remember that wireless links *often* lose multicast packets. > Even > some ethernet switches do. > > Example: > > MaxRtrAdvInterval = 10 minutes > AdvRDNSSLifetime = (Default) 5*MaxRtrAdvInterval = 50 minutes > 0.8*Lifetime = 40 minutes > 0.1*Lifetime = 5 minutes > > Let's simplify the situation and act as if MaxRtrAdvInterval > is the > absolute interval (it is not!). > > 00:00 Router Advertisement, Lifetime = 50 minutes > 00:10 Lifetime = 40 minutes (it could already time out > according to the > current RFC) > 00:10 Router Advertisement (lost) > 00:20 Lifetime = 30 minutes > 00:20 Router Advertisement (lost again) > 00:30 Lifetime = 20 minutes > 00:30 Router Advertisement (lost the third time!) > 00:35 Lifetime = 15 minutes > 00:35 This is the first time RS can be sent with this best > practice > (the last time is 00:45, counted like that 0.8*00:50 +/- > 0.1*00:50) > 00:35 Router Solicitation > > Since then, router solicitations would be issued regularly > until > client recieves RA with RDNSS, connection is cancelled by user > or: > > 00:50 Lifetime = 0 > 00:50 RDNSS expired > > Note: > > It is not perfect. The concept of finitely valid RDNSS is > quite new. > There is an open question, when to consider RDNSS information > lost. It > could be: > > 1) Last RDNSS from RAs expired. > 2) Last IPv6 RDNSS expired (RDNSS or DHCPv6) > 3) Last RDNSS lost (IPv6 or IPv4) > > Pavel Simerda > > > On Thu, 2012-04-26 at 14:00 +0200, Ole Trøan wrote: > > > Pavel, > > > > I concur with your description of the problem. > > do you have a proposal for how it can be solved? > > > > Best regards, > > Ole > > > > > > On Apr 19, 2012, at 23:32 , Pavel Šimerda wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I'm starting my work on linux NetworkManager. I've been > following > > > several bugreports during the recent months that all lead > to problems > > > with maintaining the list of recursive nameservers. > > > > > > I've already spent quite some time analyzing RDNSS > problems and I came > > > to a conclusion that the problem actually lives in the RFC > itself. > > > > > > Please look at section 5.1. in RFC 6106. It states: > > > > > > MaxRtrAdvInterval <= Lifetime <= 2*MaxRtrAdvInterval > > > > > > Considering MaxRtrAdvInterval the maximum time between > RAs, setting > > > Lifetime to MaxRtrAdvInterval IMO constitutes a race > condition. > > > Moreover, any Lifetime in this interval can timeout with > just one or two > > > lost RAs. > > > > > > This makes RA-based IPv6-only networks drop RDNSS > regularly. In many > > > implementations IPv6 and IPv4 are bound together so that > if one of them > > > fails, the whole link is restarted. This is also the case > in > > > NetworkManager. > > > > > > In the current situation, it's not advisable to use RFC > 6106 in > > > production because it can cause problems even to IPv4 > applications. > > > > > > In the real world, radvd uses Lifetime=MaxRtrAdvInterval > by default and > > > NetworkManager internally adds 10s to the lifetime, that > only helps to > > > avoid the race condition but not lost packets that are > common on > > > wireless networks. > > > > > > I appreciate any help to get this right both in the > standards and in the > > > software. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Pavel Šimerda > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From sarikaya2012@gmail.com Tue May 15 11:45:08 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F62321F887E; Tue, 15 May 2012 11:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h6IAteyUzRdX; Tue, 15 May 2012 11:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com (mail-ob0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA3521F8734; Tue, 15 May 2012 11:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbeh20 with SMTP id eh20so11244212obb.31 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XzyuWIbKzRdcW25gSqJs6P3rwjIUrfzCTWw3NUc5mPg=; b=UUv3ezuR6RpNgjU28EcVjH+3l4RrwBzPyoDTp/a0Os6WJOYYCew4ntYuJ6ALainhMS OBs6KPwFFWQG0aG27k3qaiteIL8TmueSBlKd19ganCiTMDQk6Q76JajapG7DUyCetNvW uFrxIPVQP9PhhrHIWSdVd73ql+xj1ytw4LA1dYreKnGuFezT/AGRUwalac4BUHXw+ZyF TJklDy4ysvV3lJGqJ5T5I2SF/FUqJzIyjhlL/00iFRVAlcgoCRawc//TYXMp2BELdo62 ih3l4m3BxwWKh+xkYE4t1vXIrahbaIGazGEvdxZPxV0+yWeaJpwiy24c+8h12pk1TpHE QcVg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.235.16 with SMTP id ui16mr4371834obc.61.1337107506627; Tue, 15 May 2012 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.164.103 with HTTP; Tue, 15 May 2012 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> References: <4FAC02D9.1050301@innovationslab.net> Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:45:06 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Brian Haberman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:26:30 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 18:45:08 -0000 Hi Brian, I think that there is a lot of confusion on the mails related to this tread and some others regarding IPv4 IPv6 multicast work. The confusion is stemming from the fact that multicast communication is being abstracted from unicast communication. I can not imagine any host being involved only in multicast communication. In fact most of the communication will be in unicast. For unicast communication, IETF has defined several transition protocols, mostly in Softwire WG (ds-lite, 6rd, 4rd, etc.). The right way to look at IPv4 IPv6 multicast is to look at these unicast transition protocols and then define multicast protocols for each. In fact that is what we currently have. For each unicast transition protocol we have a multicast transition protocol proposed/defined. There is probably a single other component that is needed is the address translation component. For this we have draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format. However, there has been many objections to draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format because it is trying to extend IP addressing architecture. I do agree to those who say that we do not need to extend the architecture and hope that a simpler solution can be found. Please let's not get confused more and concentrate on finding the right solution. Regards, Behcet On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Brian Haberman wrote: > Hi Yiu, > =A0 =A0 Let me ask a few questions... > > > On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >> >> Hi Carsten, >> >> Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a point = to >> your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast >> address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy >> IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is broadcaste= d >> in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). > > > How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? > > How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is > generated by an IPv6 source? =A0Does the source need to be configured to = use > one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? > > >> There will be a function in the network which is statically configured >> that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding >> mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is >> described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the >> application and managed by the network. > > > Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD protocols? > > How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use w= hen > mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to MLD? > > Regards, > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned From internet-drafts@ietf.org Tue May 15 15:05:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4493611E809F; Tue, 15 May 2012 15:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9z3o+4vC8lT; Tue, 15 May 2012 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C8321F864B; Tue, 15 May 2012 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-04.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.02 Message-ID: <20120515220551.19083.89540.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 15:05:51 -0700 Cc: ipv6@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:05:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the= IETF. Title : Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol version = 6 (IPv6) Author(s) : Dave Thaler Richard Draves Arifumi Matsumoto Tim Chown Filename : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-04.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2012-05-15 This document describes two algorithms, for source address selection and for destination address selection. The algorithms specify default behavior for all Internet Protocol version 6 (IPv6) implementations. They do not override choices made by applications or upper-layer protocols, nor do they preclude the development of more advanced mechanisms for address selection. The two algorithms share a common context, including an optional mechanism for allowing administrators to provide policy that can override the default behavior. In dual stack implementations, the destination address selection algorithm can consider both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses - depending on the available source addresses, the algorithm might prefer IPv6 addresses over IPv4 addresses, or vice-versa. All IPv6 nodes, including both hosts and routers, must implement default address selection as defined in this specification. This document obsoletes RFC 3484. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-04.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-04.txt The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis/ From jacni@jacni.com Tue May 15 18:20:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ipv6@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0221721F86A5; Tue, 15 May 2012 18:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.301, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JNWZiMxeHxX; Tue, 15 May 2012 18:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv05.olivemail.cn (mx100.vip.olivemail.net [74.82.185.218]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD9F21F86A4; Tue, 15 May 2012 18:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv01.olivemail.cn (unknown [202.105.21.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by srv05.olivemail.cn (Olivemail) with ESMTPS id 5EC803800E9; Tue, 15 May 2012 21:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oray.cn (unknown [202.105.21.248]) by srv01.olivemail.cn (Olivemail) with ESMTP id 05162340105; Wed, 16 May 2012 09:20:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.140.20.37] (unknown [64.104.125.217]) by app (Coremail) with SMTP id +AWowJDrH43sALNPt0_1AA--.2450S2; Wed, 16 May 2012 09:20:45 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <4FB300E9.60505@jacni.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 09:20:41 +0800 From: Jacni Qin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lee, Yiu" Subject: Re: [MBONED] APPSDIR review of draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090903050302090805080501" X-CM-TRANSID: +AWowJDrH43sALNPt0_1AA--.2450S2 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1UD129KBjvJXoWxWryrZF1UuryUKw1fGryUZFb_yoW5WFW8pa y8Ww4UGr4kGrn3Ca97Jw409rySyFn5G345Ary5G345u3y5Ca4SkryYk3y5ta4DGr90ya1j 9rWj9ryUZF1kA3DanT9S1TB71UUUUUUqnTZGkaVYY2UrUUUUjbIjqfuFe4nvWSU5nxnvy2 9KBjDU0xBIdaVrnL8YjsxI4VWkKwAYFVCjjxCrM7CY07I20VC2zVCF04k26cxKx2IYs7xG 6rWj6s0DMcIj6xIIjxv20xvE14v26r106r15McIj6I8E87Iv67AKxVWUJVW8JwACjcxG0x vEwIxGrwCjr7xvwVCIw2I0I7xG6c02F41lc7I2V7IY0VAS07AlzVAYIcxG8wCF04k20xvY 0x0EwIxGrwC2zVAF1VAY17CE14v26r126r1DMIIYrxkI7VAKI48JYxBIdaVFxhVjvjDU0x ZFpf9x07jr4SrUUUUU= X-CM-SenderInfo: xmdf0xo6mdu03lof0z/1tbiAQEKEko7lQ9FBwBLs6 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:57:02 -0700 Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "apps-discuss@ietf.org application-layer protocols" , "draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format.all@tools.ietf.org" , Stig Venaas , The IESG , "mboned@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 01:20:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090903050302090805080501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re-, On 5/15/2012 Tuesday 5:06 AM, Lee, Yiu wrote: > Hi Stig, > > Right. I explain only one use case. Other may find the latter case is more > attractive for their deployments. This address format should enable the > dynamic use case as well. Yes, imaging the coexistence of the native provisioning and the embedded address for some transition approach deployment, to perform that statelessly, a flag bit is efficient. Cheers, Jacni > Yiu > > On 5/14/12 4:56 PM, "Stig Venaas" wrote: > >> On 5/14/2012 1:50 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> Sorry for getting back late. I read Bert's answers to your questions. >>> His >>> answers are inline with my answers. Most information are statically >>> configured. For example: Ch1 is statically configured to 224.1.2.3 via >>> OOB >>> mechanism. If the STB is IPv4 only, it will only use IPv4 mcast address. >>> It won't use the address format defined in this draft. In my mind, the >>> most common deployment will use the same IPv6 prefix which will be >>> statically configured in the AF. >> Right, so that was my main concern with the draft. Is static >> configuration like this sufficient, or are there more generic cases >> where one needs to know that it is translated from IPv4 without a >> priori configuration. The flag bit (or a well-known prefix) is only >> needed in the latter case. I know there were some scenarios where >> someone found the latter to be advantageous though. >> >> Stig >> >>> Regards, >>> Yiu >>> >>> >>> On 5/10/12 2:03 PM, "Brian Haberman" wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Yiu, >>>> Let me ask a few questions... >>>> >>>> On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote: >>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a >>>>> point >>>>> to >>>>> your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast >>>>> address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy >>>>> IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is >>>>> broadcasted >>>>> in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3). >>>> How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3? >>>> >>>> How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is >>>> generated by an IPv6 source? Does the source need to be configured to >>>> use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses? >>>> >>>>> There will be a function in the network which is statically configured >>>>> that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding >>>>> mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is >>>>> described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the >>>>> application and managed by the network. >>>> Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD >>>> protocols? >>>> >>>> How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use >>>> when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to >>>> MLD? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Brian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MBONED mailing list >> MBONED@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned --------------090903050302090805080501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re-,

On 5/15/2012 Tuesday 5:06 AM, Lee, Yiu wrote: 
Hi Stig,

Right. I explain only one use case. Other may find the latter case is more
attractive for their deployments. This address format should enable the
dynamic use case as well.
Yes, imaging the coexistence of the native provisioning and the embedded address for some transition approach deployment, to perform that statelessly, a flag bit is efficient.


Cheers,
Jacni

Yiu

On 5/14/12 4:56 PM, "Stig Venaas" <stig@cisco.com> wrote:


On 5/14/2012 1:50 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote:

Hi Brian,

Sorry for getting back late. I read Bert's answers to your questions.
His
answers are inline with my answers. Most information are statically
configured. For example: Ch1 is statically configured to 224.1.2.3 via
OOB
mechanism. If the STB is IPv4 only, it will only use IPv4 mcast address.
It won't use the address format defined in this draft. In my mind, the
most common deployment will use the same IPv6 prefix which will be
statically configured in the AF.

Right, so that was my main concern with the draft. Is static
configuration like this sufficient, or are there more generic cases
where one needs to know that it is translated from IPv4 without a
priori configuration. The flag bit (or a well-known prefix) is only
needed in the latter case. I know there were some scenarios where
someone found the latter to be advantageous though.

Stig


Regards,
Yiu


On 5/10/12 2:03 PM, "Brian Haberman"<brian@innovationslab.net>  wrote:


Hi Yiu,
      Let me ask a few questions...

On 5/9/12 10:52 PM, Lee, Yiu wrote:

Hi Carsten,

Thanks very much for reviewing the document. I just want to add a
point
to
your question about how applications decide when to use this multicast
address format. In fact, they don't. Imagine a use case where a legacy
IPv4 IP-TV receiver (an app) wants to join a channel which is
broadcasted
in IPv6. The app will continue to send the igmp-join (say 224.1.2.3).

How does the IPv4 IP-TV know to join 224.1.2.3?

How is 224.1.2.3 advertised to the IPv4 IP-TV clients if the content is
generated by an IPv6 source?  Does the source need to be configured to
use one of these IPv4-in-IPv6 multicast addresses?


There will be a function in the network which is statically configured
that when it receives a igmp-join, it would covert to a corresponding
mld-join. The IPv6 address in the join message will follow what is
described in this draft. This Adaptive Function is transparent to the
application and managed by the network.

Are you limiting this approach to only mapping at the IGMP/MLD
protocols?

How does your Adaptive Function know which IPv6 multicast prefix to use
when mapping the IPv4 multicast address in the IGMP Report message to
MLD?

Regards,
Brian


        

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
MBONED mailing list
MBONED@ietf.org
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--------------090903050302090805080501--


From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Wed May 16 11:29:53 2012
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From: Bob Hinden 
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Subject: Request To Advance: 
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:29:49 +0300
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To: Brian Haberman , Ralph Droms 
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Brian & Ralph,

On behalf of the 6MAN WG, the chairs request the advancement of:

	Title           : Default Address Selection for Internet =
Protocol version 6 (IPv6)
	Author(s)       : Dave Thaler
                          Richard Draves
                          Arifumi Matsumoto
                          Tim Chown
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-04.txt
	Pages           : 30
	Date            : 2012-05-15

as a Proposed Standard.  A two week 6MAN working group last call was =
completed on April 26, 2012.  The current draft resolves issues raised =
during the last call.  The chairs believe there is a consensus in the =
w.g. to move this document forward.

Regards,
Bob Hinden & Ole Tr=F8an
6MAN chairs



From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com  Wed May 16 21:41:50 2012
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From: Suresh Krishnan 
To: Brian Haberman , "draft-ietf-6man-lineid@tools.ietf.org" , 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, 6man WG 
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 00:41:02 -0400
Subject: RE: AD review: draft-ietf-6man-lineid
Thread-Topic: AD review: draft-ietf-6man-lineid
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Hi Brian,
  Thanks for the comments. Please find responses inline.

Brian Haberman wrote:
> All,
>        Here are my comments on the LineID draft.  It is in pretty good
> shape, but I would like these issues addressed before moving on to IESG
> Review/IETF Last Call...
>=20
> Substantive
> -----------
>=20
> - Section 2 (paragraph 3) : This text talks about "the network" getting
> some information from the subscriber-originated RS messages.  Is it
> really the AN that gets this information or is it really the Edge
> Router?  What information is being lost when the subscriber-initiated RS
> messages stop?

It is mainly the MAC address of the host that initiated the RS. The proxy R=
S from the AN cannot convey this to the edge router.

>=20
> - Section 2 (paragraph 5) : This paragraph states that this approach is
> "NOT RECOMMENDED for general deployments".  Do you really mean general
> deployments or is is better to say deployments not using the N:1 VLAN mod=
el?

It is intended to convey that this mechanism applies to n:1 vlan models and=
 is not generally applicable. If we use "NOT RECOMMENDED for deployments no=
t using N:1" we end up with a double negative. Will that work for you?

>=20
> - Section 5.1 : If the AN has an IPv6 address, why is its use in the
> encapsulating header only a SHOULD?

I am rewording this section to include an additional case that came up. I w=
ill change this to a MUST, The New text will read=20


OLD:
If the AN has an IPv6 address, it SHOULD use this
address in the Source Address field of the outer IPv6 datagram.
Otherwise it MUST use the unspecified address as the Source Address
of the outer IPv6 datagram.

NEW:

If the AN has an IPv6 address, it MUST use this address in the Source Addre=
ss field of the outer IPv6 datagram. Otherwise, when the end-device sends o=
ut a Router Solicitation and uses a link-local address in the Source Addres=
s field, the AN MUST copy this address in the Source Address field of the o=
uter IPv6 datagram.
In all other cases, the AN MUST use the unspecified address as the Source A=
ddress of the outer IPv6 datagram.

>=20
> - Section 6.3 : How does the edge router know what prefixes to map to
> the LIO?  Should there be some specification that the RA transmitted
> must/should carry a PIO?

The LIO gets mapped to the prefix either by configuration or some form of d=
ynamic provisioning using a protocol like RADIUS. I will add an explicit st=
atement that this RA MUST carry this prefix in the PIO.

=20
>=20
> - Section 7 : I would suggest for the definition of the Option Length
> s/The value 0 is considered invalid/The value MUST be greater than 0/

OK.

>=20
> - Section 7.1 : I have questions on the use of SHOULD NOT in the last
> two paragraphs. In what situation would two line IDs be considered equal
> if they do not match byte-by-byte?  To me, this can be changed to MUST
> NOT. I am not sure there is really any reason to say an intermediate
> system SHOULD NOT examine the Line ID.  There is no way to enforce that
> rule.  In what situation (or type of situation) would an intermediate
> system be allowed to modify the Line ID?

I cannot see any reasonable cases where there can be exceptions to this. I =
will change these to MUST NOTs.

>=20
> Editorial
> ---------

I will make all these editorial changes,

Thanks
Suresh


From brian@innovationslab.net  Thu May 17 06:09:26 2012
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Hi Suresh,

On 5/17/12 12:41 AM, Suresh Krishnan wrote:
> Hi Brian, Thanks for the comments. Please find responses inline.
>
> Brian Haberman wrote:
>> All, Here are my comments on the LineID draft.  It is in pretty
>> good shape, but I would like these issues addressed before moving
>> on to IESG Review/IETF Last Call...
>>
>> Substantive -----------
>>
>> - Section 2 (paragraph 3) : This text talks about "the network"
>> getting some information from the subscriber-originated RS
>> messages.  Is it really the AN that gets this information or is it
>> really the Edge Router?  What information is being lost when the
>> subscriber-initiated RS messages stop?
>
> It is mainly the MAC address of the host that initiated the RS. The
> proxy RS from the AN cannot convey this to the edge router.
>
>>
>> - Section 2 (paragraph 5) : This paragraph states that this
>> approach is "NOT RECOMMENDED for general deployments".  Do you
>> really mean general deployments or is is better to say deployments
>> not using the N:1 VLAN model?
>
> It is intended to convey that this mechanism applies to n:1 vlan
> models and is not generally applicable. If we use "NOT RECOMMENDED
> for deployments not using N:1" we end up with a double negative. Will
> that work for you?

How about : "...is considered experimental and SHOULD only be used in 
deployments employing N:1 VLANs."?

I, personally, would not object to changing the above SHOULD to a MUST.

>
>>
>> - Section 5.1 : If the AN has an IPv6 address, why is its use in
>> the encapsulating header only a SHOULD?
>
> I am rewording this section to include an additional case that came
> up. I will change this to a MUST, The New text will read
>
>
> OLD: If the AN has an IPv6 address, it SHOULD use this address in the
> Source Address field of the outer IPv6 datagram. Otherwise it MUST
> use the unspecified address as the Source Address of the outer IPv6
> datagram.
>
> NEW:
>
> If the AN has an IPv6 address, it MUST use this address in the Source
> Address field of the outer IPv6 datagram. Otherwise, when the
> end-device sends out a Router Solicitation and uses a link-local
> address in the Source Address field, the AN MUST copy this address in
> the Source Address field of the outer IPv6 datagram. In all other
> cases, the AN MUST use the unspecified address as the Source Address
> of the outer IPv6 datagram.

Looks good to me.

>
>>
>> - Section 6.3 : How does the edge router know what prefixes to map
>> to the LIO?  Should there be some specification that the RA
>> transmitted must/should carry a PIO?
>
> The LIO gets mapped to the prefix either by configuration or some
> form of dynamic provisioning using a protocol like RADIUS. I will add
> an explicit statement that this RA MUST carry this prefix in the
> PIO.
>

Ok.

>
>>
>> - Section 7 : I would suggest for the definition of the Option
>> Length s/The value 0 is considered invalid/The value MUST be
>> greater than 0/
>
> OK.
>
>>
>> - Section 7.1 : I have questions on the use of SHOULD NOT in the
>> last two paragraphs. In what situation would two line IDs be
>> considered equal if they do not match byte-by-byte?  To me, this
>> can be changed to MUST NOT. I am not sure there is really any
>> reason to say an intermediate system SHOULD NOT examine the Line
>> ID.  There is no way to enforce that rule.  In what situation (or
>> type of situation) would an intermediate system be allowed to
>> modify the Line ID?
>
> I cannot see any reasonable cases where there can be exceptions to
> this. I will change these to MUST NOTs.
>

Ok.

>>
>> Editorial ---------
>
> I will make all these editorial changes,
>

Cool.  Once the new version is out, I will start an IETF Last Call.

Regards,
Brian



From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri May 18 14:07:52 2012
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From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-stable-privacy-addresses-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : A method for Generating Stable Privacy-Enhanced Addresse=
s with IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration (SLAAC)
	Author(s)       : Fernando Gont
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-stable-privacy-addresses-00.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2012-05-18

   This document specifies a method for generating IPv6 Interface
   Identifiers to be used with IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration
   (SLAAC), such that addresses configured using this method are stable
   within each subnet, but the Interface Identifier changes when hosts
   move from one network to another.  The aforementioned method is meant
   to be an alternative to generating Interface Identifiers based on
   IEEE identifiers, such that the benefits of stable addresses can be
   achieved without sacrificing the privacy of users.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-stable-privacy-addresse=
s-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-stable-privacy-addresses=
-00.txt

The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-stable-privacy-addresses/


From marshall.eubanks@gmail.com  Mon May 21 11:01:44 2012
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Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 14:01:42 -0400
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Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: 
From: Marshall Eubanks 
To: Magnus Westerlund 
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Dear Magnus;

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Magnus Westerlund
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I know the WG last call has closed. But I reviewed it anyway and I have
> found some nits and things which the WG chairs anyway will stumble on in
> their ID checklist processing of the document. I also have some more
> substantial comments on how this is written. I am sorry that I am late,
> but I simple missed the WG last call.
>
> I do support this document going forward but I do think it needs to be
> updated prior to submission to the AD.
>
> 1) Abstract contains bracketed references. I would suggest replacing
> RFC2460[RFC2460] with the documents title and RFC number without brackets=
.
>

The brackets come from xml2rfc. This nit is will be done.

> 2) Document header does not contain "Updates:RFC2460"

OK, will be fixed.

>
> 3) Section 1, " RFC 2460[RFC2460], " I think this should be "Internet
> Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification [RFC2460],"
>

Isn't this just # 1 ? Or am I missing something?
> 4. Section 5
> =A0 =A0 "However, some protocols, such as lightweight tunneling
> =A0 =A0 =A0protocols that use UDP as a tunnel encapsulation, MAY omit
> =A0 =A0 =A0computing the UDP checksum of the encapsulating UDP header and=
 set
> =A0 =A0 =A0it to zero, subject to the constraints described in
> =A0 =A0 =A0[I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero]."
>
> I am a bit worried about making [I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero] part of the
> specification text. Especially something that I at least consider being
> normative definition of constraints. Those I think should be part of
> this document. I think the pointers earlier in the document is
> sufficient to establish that part of the inclusion of the constraints in
> this document are based on whats in our document.

Here is the problem with
> =A0 =A0 =A0[I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero]."

The intended reference is to _the current document_. Remember, this
text is part of

 This item should be taken out of the bullet list and should be
   modified as follows:

where "this item" is [RFC2460] Section 8.1, 4th bullet

What I was worried about was that someone would take our instructions
literally, and create a mashup of 2560 and the current document, as
that is what we tell them to do. Then, you don't want to just say "as
in Section X", as that is ambiguous. Nor do you want
to say "Section X, of this document," for the same reason. Ideally, if
this document was RFC YYYY, you would say "Section X of RFC YYYY."

However, can a document normatively reference itself ? That might
excite Douglas Hofstadter, but it seems dubious to me.

It does occur to me that this must have been dealt with previously -
do you know of previous solutions ?

>
> 5. Section 6. "It is now 2011." Can the authors confirm if there has
> been no more analysis and maybe indicate the current year.

Will do.

>
> In general when I read this document it reads to much like a discussion
> paper rather than a normative specification. I think it is late in the
> process and do not require any changes now. However, I have raised this
> earlier (on the 00 wg version) and the authors have not addressed this.
>

I actually did change a bunch of text based on that. I agree it is a
bit late to do more.

Marshall

> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| Phone =A0+46 10 7148287
> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

From brian@innovationslab.net  Mon May 21 11:49:52 2012
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Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 14:49:42 -0400
From: Brian Haberman 
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Subject: AD Review : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis
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All,
      Here are my comments on the Address Selection draft.  I think it 
is in really good shape and only have a few 
comments/questions/suggestions.  Many of these are related to text 
directly inherited from RFC 3484, so I am willing to listen to push back 
on making those changes.

1. The first line of the Abstract does not read well.  I suggest 
changing it to "... two algorithms, one for source address selection and 
one for...".

2. There has been resistance to having normative text in the Abstract 
and the first sentence of the second paragraph certainly sounds 
normative.  Any objection to striking that first sentence?  Would it 
make sense to move that sentence to the last paragraph in the Introduction?

3. The fourth paragraph of section 2 says apps SHOULD iterate through 
the list of addresses returned from getaddrinfo().  It would be useful 
to identify what exceptions to that rule are reasonable.

4. Section 2.1 (6th paragraph) mentions ULAs and 6to4 without expansion 
or reference.  It would be good to spell out what those are.

5. I am curious as to what the rationale was for changing the text in 
section 2.2 as opposed to keeping the original text from RFC 3484.  In 
making that change, why is only the length of S's prefix listed as a 
stopping criteria for comparison?

6. In section 3.1, I find it confusing to discuss "unicast site-local" 
and not mention the scope of ULAs.  In fact, it may be worthwhile to 
mention in section 2.1 that the placement of FEC0::/10 is based on the 
site-local prefix having been deprecated.

7. Section 5 states "...the remaining rules are applied (in order) to 
...".  I would like to see this rule strengthened with the use of MUST 
or SHOULD.  In addition, the last paragraph in the section may lead some 
implementers to consider some of the rules as optional.  Is that really 
what we want?

8. This comment is driven by text in Section 6, but there are other 
cases throughout the document.  In several places, I find "should" and 
"may" being used in situations where it could be normative.  Is the 
intent to interpret mixed- and lower-case 2119 keywords as normative?

9. Section 7 contains an indirect reference to a rule by using "Rule 
5.5".  It would read better if it said something like "Rule 5 in Section 
5" or something similar.

Once we resolve these, the draft can move along to IETF Last Call.

Regards,
Brian

From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Tue May 22 03:03:51 2012
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To: Marshall Eubanks 
Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: 
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See inline

On 2012-05-21 20:01, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> Dear Magnus;
> 
> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Magnus Westerlund
>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I know the WG last call has closed. But I reviewed it anyway and I have
>> found some nits and things which the WG chairs anyway will stumble on in
>> their ID checklist processing of the document. I also have some more
>> substantial comments on how this is written. I am sorry that I am late,
>> but I simple missed the WG last call.
>>
>> I do support this document going forward but I do think it needs to be
>> updated prior to submission to the AD.
>>
>> 1) Abstract contains bracketed references. I would suggest replacing
>> RFC2460[RFC2460] with the documents title and RFC number without brackets.
>>
> 
> The brackets come from xml2rfc. This nit is will be done.
> 
>> 2) Document header does not contain "Updates:RFC2460"
> 
> OK, will be fixed.
> 
>>
>> 3) Section 1, " RFC 2460[RFC2460], " I think this should be "Internet
>> Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification [RFC2460],"
>>
> 
> Isn't this just # 1 ? Or am I missing something?

Yes, I just wanted to point out the place where things are going wrong.

>> 4. Section 5
>>     "However, some protocols, such as lightweight tunneling
>>      protocols that use UDP as a tunnel encapsulation, MAY omit
>>      computing the UDP checksum of the encapsulating UDP header and set
>>      it to zero, subject to the constraints described in
>>      [I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero]."
>>
>> I am a bit worried about making [I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero] part of the
>> specification text. Especially something that I at least consider being
>> normative definition of constraints. Those I think should be part of
>> this document. I think the pointers earlier in the document is
>> sufficient to establish that part of the inclusion of the constraints in
>> this document are based on whats in our document.
> 
> Here is the problem with
>>      [I-D.ietf-6man-udpzero]."
> 
> The intended reference is to _the current document_. Remember, this
> text is part of
> 
>  This item should be taken out of the bullet list and should be
>    modified as follows:
> 
> where "this item" is [RFC2460] Section 8.1, 4th bullet
> 
> What I was worried about was that someone would take our instructions
> literally, and create a mashup of 2560 and the current document, as
> that is what we tell them to do. Then, you don't want to just say "as
> in Section X", as that is ambiguous. Nor do you want
> to say "Section X, of this document," for the same reason. Ideally, if
> this document was RFC YYYY, you would say "Section X of RFC YYYY."
> 
> However, can a document normatively reference itself ? That might
> excite Douglas Hofstadter, but it seems dubious to me.
> 
> It does occur to me that this must have been dealt with previously -
> do you know of previous solutions ?

Yes, it can reference itself. What is commonly done in RTP Payload Media
Types registrations that we want to have the property to be copied and
thus reference itself. One inlcude [RFCXXXX] and then write an
RFC-editor note requesting to have the RFC-editor replace XXXX with the
number your document gets when being published.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From justintfranks@gmail.com  Mon May 21 18:12:55 2012
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Subject: IPv6 concern
From: justin franks 
To: ipv6@ietf.org
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--f46d043bdecea56e3504c095b69e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hello,
I am an Internet Engineer. Specifically large scale ISP and Data Center
networks. I understand we need IPv6 and am working towards that as well.
However, I have major concerns about 2 areas in IPv6
1. The BGP prefix filtering
2. The assignment of multiple /32 or /48's to the same Organization by
various RIR's.
I have typed up a brief one page document here that explains some very
valid points.
http://www.inetassociation.com/ipv6subnetdesign.htm

-Justin Franks

--f46d043bdecea56e3504c095b69e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hello,
I am an Internet Engineer. Specifically large scale I=
SP and Data Center networks. I understand we need IPv6 and am working towar=
ds that as well.
However, I have major concerns about 2 areas in =
IPv6


1. The BGP prefix filtering
2. The assignment of multiple /3=
2 or /48's to the same Organization by various RIR's.
I h=
ave typed up a brief one page document here that explains some very valid p=
oints.


=A0
-=
Justin Franks


--f46d043bdecea56e3504c095b69e--

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To: justin franks 
Subject: Re: IPv6 concern
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On 2012-05-22 03:12 , justin franks wrote:
> Hello,
> I am an Internet Engineer. Specifically large scale ISP and Data Center
> networks. I understand we need IPv6 and am working towards that as well.
> However, I have major concerns about 2 areas in IPv6
> 1. The BGP prefix filtering
> 2. The assignment of multiple /32 or /48's to the same Organization by
> various RIR's.
> I have typed up a brief one page document here that explains some very
> valid points.
> http://www.inetassociation.com/ipv6subnetdesign.htm

I do not grasp what you are trying to state with your message as it is
very unstructured.

But a couple of comments to statements in that text:

> Really big organizations and ISP's are given a /32 block.

Actually, per default an ISP will get a /32, really big ones will get
larger blocks, up to /13 have been seen already.

http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/dfp/ shows 1 /13 (spread into 14x /22),
2x /19 and several /20's as an example.

> Smaller organizations are given a /48 block

You mean: Organizations who request a PI block and cannot justify more
than a /48.

> Based on those numbers you now know which size prefix you request
> from your RIR. A /48 or a /32.

Or much much much larger, like those /19s mentioned above.

You are obviously forgetting about HD ratio and the amount of customers
that actually are served with these blocks.

"Child Prefixes" are just called subprefixes

> This model is super modular, super simple and super scalable.

It is not, as if you made the wrong choice when chunking up the prefix
you will need to move a little other chunk somewhere else and you will
just end up in routing mess anyway.

> If it was me I would only advertise Child Prefixes from the
> appropriate BGP routers per region.
[...]
> There needs to be an industry standard on what is the smallest prefix
> allowed to be advertised in BGP for IPv6. There is no standard now.
> Once a standard is made then we can begin to plan and design global
> networks accordingly.

Please actually check http://www.space.net/~gert/RIPE/ipv6-filters.html
for current operational practice that has been in use for nearly a
decade already.

You should only expect the assigned-from-RIR block to be accepted,
nothing else, especially not larger announcements.


As such your first concern is because you do not know about current
operational practice. I suggest you follow:
http://lists.cluenet.de/mailman/listinfo/ipv6-ops
and visit RIPE, APNIC, NANOG etc meetings that cover these subjects.


For your second concern, indeed, there are various organizations that
have received a disjunct prefix per RIR and in some cases almost a
disjunct prefix per country. These organizations are typically very very
large though and tend to have disjunct routing policies too.
And you do not want to ship your traffic yourself to the otherside of
the world, it is just too messy, with multiple prefixes all that is solved.

Greets,
 Jeroen

From stefan.marksteiner@joanneum.at  Tue May 22 08:04:17 2012
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From: "Marksteiner, Stefan" 
To: "'ipv6@ietf.org'" 
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 17:04:04 +0200
Subject: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
Thread-Topic: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
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Hello,

I just wonder if  any *official* summarization of currently existing IPv6 e=
xtension headers exists.
The only way I found to determine all headers is to step through the IANA p=
rotocol numbers list and check in the references whether the according prot=
ocol has a defined IPv6 extension header.
As far as I see it a complete current list would be:
Hop-by-Hop Option                       0
Routing Header                               43
Fragment Header                           44
AH                                                         51
ESP                                                        50
Destination Options                       60
Mobility Header                              135
Host Identity Protocol                   139
Shim6 Protocol                                140

Is there something I missed or misinterpreted? Or is there actually an offi=
cial list (a citable source would fit my needs best)?
Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Stefan

--_000_8A317FD8C00FEE448E52D4EE5B56BB3E022FC95C314ERZJC1EXjr1l_
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Hello,
 
I just wonder if  any *official* summarization of c=
urrently existing IPv6 extension headers exists.
The only way I found to determine all he=
aders is to step through the IANA protocol numbers list and check in the re=
ferences whether the according protocol has a defined IPv6 extension header=
.
As far as I =
see it a complete current list would be:
Hop-by-Hop Option     &=
nbsp;            &nb=
sp;    0 
Routing Header        &n=
bsp;            =
;          43
Fragment Header  &nb=
sp;            =
            44<=
/o:p>
AH   =
;            &n=
bsp;            =
;             &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;   51
ESP           &n=
bsp;            =
;            &n=
bsp;            &nbs=
p;      50
Destination Options       &n=
bsp;            =
;   60
Mobility Header          &n=
bsp;            &nbs=
p;      135
Host Identity Protocol      &nbs=
p;            139
Shim6 Protocol &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;     140
 
Is there something I missed or misinterpreted? Or is there act=
ually an official list (a citable source would fit my needs best)?
Thanks in advance.
 =

Cheers,
 
Stefan
=

--_000_8A317FD8C00FEE448E52D4EE5B56BB3E022FC95C314ERZJC1EXjr1l_--

From jeremy.duncan@salientfed.com  Tue May 22 08:33:20 2012
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From: "Duncan, Jeremy" 
To: "'ipv6@ietf.org'" 
Subject: RE: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
Thread-Topic: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
Thread-Index: Ac04KrD94/8F1LakTiO1lxxNyun92QABXf9V
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yes, sect 4 of RFC 2460:

   A full implementation of IPv6 includes implementation of the
   following extension headers:

           Hop-by-Hop Options
           Routing (Type 0)
           Fragment
           Destination Options
           Authentication
           Encapsulating Security Payload

   The first four are specified in this document; the last two are
   specified in [RFC-2402] and [RFC-2406], respectively.

4.1  Extension Header Order

   When more than one extension header is used in the same packet, it is
   recommended that those headers appear in the following order:

           IPv6 header
           Hop-by-Hop Options header
           Destination Options header (note 1)
           Routing header
           Fragment header


http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2460.txt


010100110110010101101101011100000110010101110010001000000100011001101001

Jeremy Duncan
Senior Director, IPv6 Network Architect Salient Federal Solutions, Inc.
(Now including SGIS & Command Information Inc.)
4000 Legato Road, Suite 600 Fairfax, VA 22033
Google Voice:  540.440.1193
jeremy.duncan@salientfed.com
________________________________
From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Marksteine=
r, Stefan [stefan.marksteiner@joanneum.at]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:04 AM
To: 'ipv6@ietf.org'
Subject: Is there an official Extension Headers List?

Hello,

I just wonder if  any *official* summarization of currently existing IPv6 e=
xtension headers exists.
The only way I found to determine all headers is to step through the IANA p=
rotocol numbers list and check in the references whether the according prot=
ocol has a defined IPv6 extension header.
As far as I see it a complete current list would be:
Hop-by-Hop Option                       0
Routing Header                               43
Fragment Header                           44
AH                                                         51
ESP                                                        50
Destination Options                       60
Mobility Header                              135
Host Identity Protocol                   139
Shim6 Protocol                                140

Is there something I missed or misinterpreted? Or is there actually an offi=
cial list (a citable source would fit my needs best)?
Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Stefan

--_000_923297B868FB664FBFA90FCC255696DF025E70BY2PRD0510MB366na_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable








yes, sect 4 of RFC 2460:


   A full implementation of IPv6 includes implementation of the
   =
following extension headers:

           Hop-by-Hop Options
      =
     Routing (Type 0)
           Fragment
           Destination Opti=
ons
           Authentication
           Encapsulating Security Paylo=
ad

   The first four are specified in this document; the last two ar=
e
   specified in [RFC-2402] and [RFC-2406], respectively.

4.1  E=
xtension Header Order

   When more than one extension header is used=
 in the same packet, it is
   recommended that those headers appear in t=
he following order:

           IPv6 header
           Hop-by-Hop =
Options header
           Destination Options header (note 1)
       =
    Routing header
           Fragment header





http://ww=
w.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2460.txt








010100110110010101101101011100000110010101110010001000000100011001101001
 

Jeremy Duncan

Senior Director, IPv6 Network Architect Salient Federal Solutions, Inc.

(Now including SGIS & Command Information Inc.) 

4000 Legato Road, Suite 600 Fairfax, VA 22033 

Google Voice:  540.440.1193 

jeremy.duncan@salientfed.com












From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces=
@ietf.org] on behalf of Marksteiner, Stefan [stefan.marksteiner@joanneum.at=
]

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:04 AM

To: 'ipv6@ietf.org'

Subject: Is there an official Extension Headers List?












Hello,


 


I just wonder if  any *=
official* summarization of currently existing IPv6 extension headers ex=
ists.


The only way I found to determi=
ne all headers is to step through the IANA protocol numbers list and check =
in the references whether the according protocol has a defined IPv6 extensi=
on header.


As far as I see it a complete c=
urrent list would be:


Hop-by-Hop Option  &n=
bsp;            &nbs=
p;       0



Routing Header   =
;            &n=
bsp;            =
;   43


Fragment Header  &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           44=



AH     =
;            &n=
bsp;            =
;             &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p; 51


ESP    &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
             50=



Destination Options   =
;             &=
nbsp;      60


Mobility Header   &nb=
sp;             =
;             1=
35


Host Identity Protocol   &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;   139


Shim6 Protocol   &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;   140


 


Is there something I missed or =
misinterpreted? Or is there actually an official list (a citable source wou=
ld fit my needs best)?


Thanks in advance.


 


Cheers,


 


Stefan












--_000_923297B868FB664FBFA90FCC255696DF025E70BY2PRD0510MB366na_--

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Subject: Re: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
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However, extension headers defined since 2460 have to be added.
That's the case for MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP.

This matters - there are known to be boxes that discard packets
with a SHIM6 header, for example.

We do maybe need a little normative RFC on this.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 2012-05-22 16:33, Duncan, Jeremy wrote:
> yes, sect 4 of RFC 2460:
> 
>    A full implementation of IPv6 includes implementation of the
>    following extension headers:
> 
>            Hop-by-Hop Options
>            Routing (Type 0)
>            Fragment
>            Destination Options
>            Authentication
>            Encapsulating Security Payload
> 
>    The first four are specified in this document; the last two are
>    specified in [RFC-2402] and [RFC-2406], respectively.
> 
> 4.1  Extension Header Order
> 
>    When more than one extension header is used in the same packet, it is
>    recommended that those headers appear in the following order:
> 
>            IPv6 header
>            Hop-by-Hop Options header
>            Destination Options header (note 1)
>            Routing header
>            Fragment header
> 
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2460.txt
> 
> 
> 010100110110010101101101011100000110010101110010001000000100011001101001
> 
> Jeremy Duncan
> Senior Director, IPv6 Network Architect Salient Federal Solutions, Inc.
> (Now including SGIS & Command Information Inc.)
> 4000 Legato Road, Suite 600 Fairfax, VA 22033
> Google Voice:  540.440.1193
> jeremy.duncan@salientfed.com
> ________________________________
> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Marksteiner, Stefan [stefan.marksteiner@joanneum.at]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:04 AM
> To: 'ipv6@ietf.org'
> Subject: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I just wonder if  any *official* summarization of currently existing IPv6 extension headers exists.
> The only way I found to determine all headers is to step through the IANA protocol numbers list and check in the references whether the according protocol has a defined IPv6 extension header.
> As far as I see it a complete current list would be:
> Hop-by-Hop Option                       0
> Routing Header                               43
> Fragment Header                           44
> AH                                                         51
> ESP                                                        50
> Destination Options                       60
> Mobility Header                              135
> Host Identity Protocol                   139
> Shim6 Protocol                                140
> 
> Is there something I missed or misinterpreted? Or is there actually an official list (a citable source would fit my needs best)?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Stefan
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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From jeroen@unfix.org  Tue May 22 09:00:48 2012
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To: Brian E Carpenter 
Subject: Re: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
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On 2012-05-22 17:46 , Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> However, extension headers defined since 2460 have to be added.
> That's the case for MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP.
> 
> This matters - there are known to be boxes that discard packets
> with a SHIM6 header, for example.
> 
> We do maybe need a little normative RFC on this.

Isn't the proper location for this:
http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xml

Though that just points to:
http://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xml

as those are all the protocol numbers.

The "problem" with that list is that it is not noted explicitly as being
a Extension Header, thus IMHO it would be best if IANA could add a flag
or so to indicate that a certain protocol number is explicitly used as a
IPv6 Extension Header.

Greets,
 Jeroen

From stefan.marksteiner@joanneum.at  Tue May 22 12:43:14 2012
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From: "Marksteiner, Stefan" 
To: Jeroen Massar , Brian E Carpenter 
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 21:40:03 +0200
Subject: AW: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
Thread-Topic: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
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That's exactly what I've meant in the first place - looking for a place for=
 citations, the IANA protocol numbers site would have been the first place =
where I would look for such information.

Greetings,

Stefan
________________________________________
Von: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] im Auftrag von Jeroen Ma=
ssar [jeroen@unfix.org]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2012 18:00
An: Brian E Carpenter
Cc: Duncan, Jeremy; 'ipv6@ietf.org'
Betreff: Re: Is there an official Extension Headers List?

On 2012-05-22 17:46 , Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> However, extension headers defined since 2460 have to be added.
> That's the case for MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP.
>
> This matters - there are known to be boxes that discard packets
> with a SHIM6 header, for example.
>
> We do maybe need a little normative RFC on this.

Isn't the proper location for this:
http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xml

Though that just points to:
http://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xml

as those are all the protocol numbers.

The "problem" with that list is that it is not noted explicitly as being
a Extension Header, thus IMHO it would be best if IANA could add a flag
or so to indicate that a certain protocol number is explicitly used as a
IPv6 Extension Header.

Greets,
 Jeroen
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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Tue May 22 23:54:42 2012
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Subject: Re: AW: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
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I agree with that, but we seem to have a small problem.

RFC 2460 says that unrecognized extension headers should
lead to a discard and an ICMP Parameter Problem message,
and RFC 6434 confirms this - but without adding the extension
headers defined since RFC 2460. Thus the Internet is partially
opaque to MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP, depending on which vendors
happen to allow for them.

Regards
   Brian

On 2012-05-22 20:40, Marksteiner, Stefan wrote:
> That's exactly what I've meant in the first place - looking for a place for citations, the IANA protocol numbers site would have been the first place where I would look for such information.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Stefan
> ________________________________________
> Von: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] im Auftrag von Jeroen Massar [jeroen@unfix.org]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2012 18:00
> An: Brian E Carpenter
> Cc: Duncan, Jeremy; 'ipv6@ietf.org'
> Betreff: Re: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
> 
> On 2012-05-22 17:46 , Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> However, extension headers defined since 2460 have to be added.
>> That's the case for MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP.
>>
>> This matters - there are known to be boxes that discard packets
>> with a SHIM6 header, for example.
>>
>> We do maybe need a little normative RFC on this.
> 
> Isn't the proper location for this:
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xml
> 
> Though that just points to:
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xml
> 
> as those are all the protocol numbers.
> 
> The "problem" with that list is that it is not noted explicitly as being
> a Extension Header, thus IMHO it would be best if IANA could add a flag
> or so to indicate that a certain protocol number is explicitly used as a
> IPv6 Extension Header.
> 
> Greets,
>  Jeroen
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

From ichiroumakino@gmail.com  Wed May 23 00:47:37 2012
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Brian,

> I agree with that, but we seem to have a small problem.
> 
> RFC 2460 says that unrecognized extension headers should
> lead to a discard and an ICMP Parameter Problem message,
> and RFC 6434 confirms this - but without adding the extension
> headers defined since RFC 2460. Thus the Internet is partially
> opaque to MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP, depending on which vendors
> happen to allow for them.

RFC2460:
   With one exception, extension headers are not examined or processed
   by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches
   the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast)
   identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header.

cheers,
Ole

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Wed May 23 02:53:07 2012
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Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 10:52:55 +0100
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: Is there an official Extension Headers List?
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On 2012-05-23 08:47, Ole Tr=C3=B8an wrote:
> Brian,
>=20
>> I agree with that, but we seem to have a small problem.
>>
>> RFC 2460 says that unrecognized extension headers should
>> lead to a discard and an ICMP Parameter Problem message,
>> and RFC 6434 confirms this - but without adding the extension
>> headers defined since RFC 2460. Thus the Internet is partially
>> opaque to MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP, depending on which vendors
>> happen to allow for them.
>=20
> RFC2460:
>    With one exception, extension headers are not examined or processed
>    by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches=

>    the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast)
>    identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header.

I wish it was true. There are definitely boxes that are opaque to
unrecognized headers. You are correct that the text in 2460 about
discard is not supposed to apply to forwarding nodes, which are only
supposed to examine the hop-by-hop options header, but this seems to
have been misunderstood by some implementors.

    Brian


From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com  Wed May 23 06:20:54 2012
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From: 
To: "ipv6@ietf.org" 
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 15:20:50 +0200
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
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--_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E2B9B5493PUEXCB1Bnante_
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Dear all,

Many thanks for the individuals who read the draft and provided some commen=
t.

My read of the the answers received in this thread is there is no strong re=
asons to question the design choices as documented in the draft.

FWIW, I just submitted a updated version taking into account the comments r=
eceived during the IETF LC:

* Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review
* Title change (comment from C. Bormann)
* Added a new section to describe the algorithm to embed/extract the IPv4 a=
ddress (comment from C. Bormann)
* Added some pointers to documents making use of the address format (commen=
t from C. Bormann)
* Added an appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed (comment from C. Borm=
ann)
* Added an appendix to explain why an address format is needed (comment fro=
m C. Bormann)
* Added examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64 (comment from C. Borma=
nn)

Diff from previous version:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address=
-format-02

Cheers,
Med

________________________________
De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de moh=
amed.boucadair@orange.com
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012 14:50
=C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
Cc : Brian Haberman; draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ie=
tf.org
Objet : draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format


Dear all,

During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian=
 suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 (S=
SM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approach in=
 an early version of the document but it has been abandoned because of comm=
ents we received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our design =
choice in:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01=
#appendix-A.2.

We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:

(1) Should we maintain the current design choice
(2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?

FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: http://www.ietf.o=
rg/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html.
The latest version of the draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-01

Your help is appreciated.

Cheers,
Med

--_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E2B9B5493PUEXCB1Bnante_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Dear all,


 


Many thanks for the individuals who read the =
draft and=20
provided some comment. 


 


My read of the the answers received in this t=
hread is=20
there is no strong reasons to question the design choices as documented in =
the=20
draft. 


 


FWIW, I just submitted a <=
SPAN=20
class=3D723551513-23052012>updated version taking into account the comments recei=
ved=20
during the IETF LC:


 


*=20
Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review


* Title=20
change (comment from C. Bormann)


* Added a=20
new section to describe the algorithm to embed/extract the IPv4 address (co=
mment=20
from C. Bormann)


* Added=20
some pointers to documents making use of the address format (comment from C=
.=20
Bormann)


* Added an=20
appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed (comment from C.=20
Bormann)


* Added an=20
appendix to explain why an address format is needed (comment from C.=20
Bormann)


* Added=20
examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64 (comment from C.=20
Bormann)




Diff from=20
previous version:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mboned=
-64-multicast-address-format-02


Cheers,
Med
 


De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de=20
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012=
=20
14:50
=C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org;=20
ipv6@ietf.org
Cc : Brian Haberman;=20
draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org
Objet&nb=
sp;:=20
draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format



  

  
Dear=20
  all,

  
 

  
During the=20
  IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian suggeste=
d to=20
  use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33 (SSM) and=
=20
  ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered that approach in an ea=
rly=20
  version of the document but it has been abandoned because of comment=
s we=20
  received at that time. We recorded the rationale behind our design choice=
=20
  in:

  
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-mu=
lticast-address-format-01#appendix-A.2.

  
 

  
We are=20
  seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:=20
  

  
 

  
(1) Should we maintain the current design=
=20
  choice

  
(2) Or adopt the suggestion from=20
  Brian?

  
 

  
FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be =
found=20
  here: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html.

  
The latest=20
  version of the draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addre=
ss-format-01

  
 

  
Your help=20
  is appreciated.

  
 

  
Cheers,

  
Med


--_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36E2B9B5493PUEXCB1Bnante_--

From john@jlc.net  Wed May 23 06:39:00 2012
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Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 09:38:59 -0400
From: John Leslie 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Subject: Unrecognized Extension Headers
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Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
> On 2012-05-23 08:47, Ole Tr??an wrote:
>> Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>> 
>>> I agree with that, but we seem to have a small problem.
>>>
>>> RFC 2460 says that unrecognized extension headers should
>>> lead to a discard and an ICMP Parameter Problem message,
>>> and RFC 6434 confirms this - but without adding the extension
>>> headers defined since RFC 2460. Thus the Internet is partially
>>> opaque to MIPv6, SHIM6 and HIP, depending on which vendors
>>> happen to allow for them.

   (This, of course, is wrong: we really-should fix it.)

   RFC 6564 "updates" RFC 2460, but this is easily missed, especially
since it has no text to contradict the "should discard" message of
RFC 2460.

   But the mere existence of possible extension headers unknown at the
time a particular IPv6 node's software was written implies that sometime
some node will encounter a newly-defined header; and an always-discard
rule is unduly limiting.

   (IMHO, of course; but anyone disagreeing is WRONG!)

>> RFC2460:
>>    With one exception, extension headers are not examined or processed
>>    by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches
>>    the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast)
>>    identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header.

   That has always been clear to me: "Don't look; don't tell!"

> I wish it was true. There are definitely boxes that are opaque to
> unrecognized headers. You are correct that the text in 2460 about
> discard is not supposed to apply to forwarding nodes, which are only
> supposed to examine the hop-by-hop options header, but this seems to
> have been misunderstood by some implementors.

   Alas, "Don't look" is also unworkable: we should recognize the reality.

   There _will_ be middleboxes that look; many of them will discard: this
is damage to route-around if we can. Nothing we write in RFCs will stop
middleboxes from discarding stuff.

   But such behavior is not helpful; and it's very sad that RFC 2460
seems to endorse it.

   We should have a clear path for extending the list of extension
headers (and especially for finding more middle-ground between _every_
hop must process and _no_ hop should process before the destination).
Perhaps all the examples we can think of right now beg for "Experimental"
status; but the time will come when we reach consensus some such animal
should be standardized.

--
John Leslie 

From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Wed May 23 09:38:30 2012
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
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Med,

On May 23, 2012, at 6:20 AM,  =
 wrote:

> Dear all,
> =20
> Many thanks for the individuals who read the draft and provided some =
comment.
> =20
> My read of the the answers received in this thread is there is no =
strong reasons to question the design choices as documented in the =
draft.

Did you see my comments sent on 5/5/2012?  I continue to think that =
there are alternatives that do not require any change to the IPv6 =
addressing architecture, nor use such a big percentage of the multicast =
group ID space.

Bob


> =20
> FWIW, I just submitted a updated version taking into account the =
comments received during the IETF LC:
> =20
> * Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review
> * Title change (comment from C. Bormann)
> * Added a new section to describe the algorithm to embed/extract the =
IPv4 address (comment from C. Bormann)
> * Added some pointers to documents making use of the address format =
(comment from C. Bormann)
> * Added an appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed (comment from C. =
Bormann)
> * Added an appendix to explain why an address format is needed =
(comment from C. Bormann)
> * Added examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64 (comment from C. =
Bormann)
>=20
> Diff from previous version:
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addres=
s-format-02
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
> =20
>=20
> De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] De la part =
de mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012 14:50
> =C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
> Cc : Brian Haberman; =
draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org
> Objet : draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
>=20
>=20
> Dear all,
> =20
> During the IETF LC for draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, =
Brian suggested to use the remaining flag instead of reserving =
ff3x:0:8000/33 (SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have =
considered that approach in an early version of the document but it has =
been abandoned because of comments we received at that time. We recorded =
the rationale behind our design choice in:
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-0=
1#appendix-A.2.
> =20
> We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:
> =20
> (1) Should we maintain the current design choice
> (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?
> =20
> FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here: =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html.
> The latest version of the draft is available at: =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-0=
1
> =20
> Your help is appreciated.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Med
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com  Wed May 23 22:38:22 2012
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From: 
To: Bob Hinden 
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 07:38:18 +0200
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
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Dear Bob,

Yes, I read that message. It is one of reasons I added two appendixes to ex=
plain:

* Why an Address Format is Needed for Multicast IPv4-IPv6 Interconnection? =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-0=
2#appendix-A.1)
* Why Identifying an IPv4-Embedded IPv6 Multicast Address is Required? (htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-02#ap=
pendix-A.2)

You may also refer to slide 7 of http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/=
slides-83-mboned-5.pdf for the overall approach.

Could you please check the new text and let me know if it solves your conce=
rns? Thanks.

Cheers
Med


>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com]=20
>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 23 mai 2012 18:38
>=C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP
>Cc : Bob Hinden; ipv6@ietf.org
>Objet : Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
>
>Med,
>
>On May 23, 2012, at 6:20 AM, =20
> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> =20
>> Many thanks for the individuals who read the draft and=20
>provided some comment.
>> =20
>> My read of the the answers received in this thread is there=20
>is no strong reasons to question the design choices as=20
>documented in the draft.
>
>Did you see my comments sent on 5/5/2012?  I continue to think=20
>that there are alternatives that do not require any change to=20
>the IPv6 addressing architecture, nor use such a big=20
>percentage of the multicast group ID space.
>
>Bob
>
>
>> =20
>> FWIW, I just submitted a updated version taking into account=20
>the comments received during the IETF LC:
>> =20
>> * Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review
>> * Title change (comment from C. Bormann)
>> * Added a new section to describe the algorithm to=20
>embed/extract the IPv4 address (comment from C. Bormann)
>> * Added some pointers to documents making use of the address=20
>format (comment from C. Bormann)
>> * Added an appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed=20
>(comment from C. Bormann)
>> * Added an appendix to explain why an address format is=20
>needed (comment from C. Bormann)
>> * Added examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64=20
>(comment from C. Bormann)
>>=20
>> Diff from previous version:
>>=20
>http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mboned-64-multica
>st-address-format-02
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Med
>> =20
>>=20
>> De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] De=20
>la part de mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012 14:50
>> =C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
>> Cc : Brian Haberman;=20
>draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org
>> Objet : draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
>>=20
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>> =20
>> During the IETF LC for=20
>draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian suggested=20
>to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33=20
>(SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered=20
>that approach in an early version of the document but it has=20
>been abandoned because of comments we received at that time.=20
>We recorded the rationale behind our design choice in:
>>=20
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addre
>ss-format-01#appendix-A.2.
>> =20
>> We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:
>> =20
>> (1) Should we maintain the current design choice
>> (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?
>> =20
>> FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here:=20
>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html.
>> The latest version of the draft is available at:=20
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addre
>ss-format-01
>> =20
>> Your help is appreciated.
>> =20
>> Cheers,
>> Med
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>=

From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Fri May 25 17:25:44 2012
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
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From: Bob Hinden 
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Med,

On May 23, 2012, at 10:38 PM,  =
 wrote:

> Dear Bob,
>=20
> Yes, I read that message. It is one of reasons I added two appendixes =
to explain:


Not seeing a response on the list, it wasn't clear to me. =20

>=20
> * Why an Address Format is Needed for Multicast IPv4-IPv6 =
Interconnection? =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-=
02#appendix-A.1)

This just restates that you want the translator to be stateless.  I =
understand that.

> * Why Identifying an IPv4-Embedded IPv6 Multicast Address is Required? =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-=
02#appendix-A.2)


The issue isn't why embedding the IPv4 multicast address in the IPv6 =
multicast address is needed, the issue is the way you do it.

Appendix A2 does not address one of the alternatives I described where =
you would preallocate (and register at the IANA) a group of multicast =
group IDs (~ 2^^28).  This would allow a 1:1 stateless mapping function. =
 It would avoid any changes to the IPv6 addressing architecture, and =
would use much less of the IPv6 multicast address space.  Your current =
proposal reduces the IPv6 multicast group space by a factor of 16 in the =
ASM case, and a factor of 16 million in the SSM case.  This is very =
wasteful given you only need to represent 2^^28 total possible IPv4 =
multicast groups. =20

>=20
> You may also refer to slide 7 of =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-mboned-5.pdf for the =
overall approach.
>=20
> Could you please check the new text and let me know if it solves your =
concerns? Thanks.

My concern remains.

Bob

>=20
> Cheers
> Med
>=20
>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 23 mai 2012 18:38
>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP
>> Cc : Bob Hinden; ipv6@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
>>=20
>> Med,
>>=20
>> On May 23, 2012, at 6:20 AM, =20
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>> Dear all,
>>>=20
>>> Many thanks for the individuals who read the draft and=20
>> provided some comment.
>>>=20
>>> My read of the the answers received in this thread is there=20
>> is no strong reasons to question the design choices as=20
>> documented in the draft.
>>=20
>> Did you see my comments sent on 5/5/2012?  I continue to think=20
>> that there are alternatives that do not require any change to=20
>> the IPv6 addressing architecture, nor use such a big=20
>> percentage of the multicast group ID space.
>>=20
>> Bob
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> FWIW, I just submitted a updated version taking into account=20
>> the comments received during the IETF LC:
>>>=20
>>> * Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review
>>> * Title change (comment from C. Bormann)
>>> * Added a new section to describe the algorithm to=20
>> embed/extract the IPv4 address (comment from C. Bormann)
>>> * Added some pointers to documents making use of the address=20
>> format (comment from C. Bormann)
>>> * Added an appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed=20
>> (comment from C. Bormann)
>>> * Added an appendix to explain why an address format is=20
>> needed (comment from C. Bormann)
>>> * Added examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64=20
>> (comment from C. Bormann)
>>>=20
>>> Diff from previous version:
>>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mboned-64-multica
>> st-address-format-02
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] De=20
>> la part de mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012 14:50
>>> =C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Cc : Brian Haberman;=20
>> draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org
>>> Objet : draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Dear all,
>>>=20
>>> During the IETF LC for=20
>> draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian suggested=20
>> to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33=20
>> (SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered=20
>> that approach in an early version of the document but it has=20
>> been abandoned because of comments we received at that time.=20
>> We recorded the rationale behind our design choice in:
>>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addre
>> ss-format-01#appendix-A.2.
>>>=20
>>> We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:
>>>=20
>>> (1) Should we maintain the current design choice
>>> (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?
>>>=20
>>> FWIW, discussion related to this issue can be found here:=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mboned/current/msg01508.html.
>>> The latest version of the draft is available at:=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addre
>> ss-format-01
>>>=20
>>> Your help is appreciated.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20


From steenjj@gmail.com  Fri May 25 20:09:18 2012
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Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 23:09:16 -0400
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
From: Jon Steen 
To: Bob Hinden 
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Sorry all, coming into this late. I have read the RFC and really do not get
why you would want to do IPv4 to IPv6 multicast translation.  Is there
really multicast information that is only IPv4 capable? From everything I
have used multicast for in the past, the data does not care about the IP
protocol used. What is the reliance of this RFC?

Jon Steen

On Friday, May 25, 2012, Bob Hinden wrote:

> Med,
>
> On May 23, 2012, at 10:38 PM, >
> > wrote:
>
> > Dear Bob,
> >
> > Yes, I read that message. It is one of reasons I added two appendixes t=
o
> explain:
>
>
> Not seeing a response on the list, it wasn't clear to me.
>
> >
> > * Why an Address Format is Needed for Multicast IPv4-IPv6
> Interconnection? (
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-=
02#appendix-A.1
> )
>
> This just restates that you want the translator to be stateless.  I
> understand that.
>
> > * Why Identifying an IPv4-Embedded IPv6 Multicast Address is Required? =
(
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-=
02#appendix-A.2
> )
>
>
> The issue isn't why embedding the IPv4 multicast address in the IPv6
> multicast address is needed, the issue is the way you do it.
>
> Appendix A2 does not address one of the alternatives I described where yo=
u
> would preallocate (and register at the IANA) a group of multicast group I=
Ds
> (~ 2^^28).  This would allow a 1:1 stateless mapping function.  It would
> avoid any changes to the IPv6 addressing architecture, and would use much
> less of the IPv6 multicast address space.  Your current proposal reduces
> the IPv6 multicast group space by a factor of 16 in the ASM case, and a
> factor of 16 million in the SSM case.  This is very wasteful given you on=
ly
> need to represent 2^^28 total possible IPv4 multicast groups.
>
> >
> > You may also refer to slide 7 of
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-mboned-5.pdf for the
> overall approach.
> >
> > Could you please check the new text and let me know if it solves your
> concerns? Thanks.
>
> My concern remains.
>
> Bob
>
> >
> > Cheers
> > Med
> >
> >
> >> -----Message d'origine-----
> >> De : Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com]
> >> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 23 mai 2012 18:38
> >> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP
> >> Cc : Bob Hinden; ipv6@ietf.org
> >> Objet : Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
> >>
> >> Med,
> >>
> >> On May 23, 2012, at 6:20 AM, 
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks for the individuals who read the draft and
> >> provided some comment.
> >>>
> >>> My read of the the answers received in this thread is there
> >> is no strong reasons to question the design choices as
> >> documented in the draft.
> >>
> >> Did you see my comments sent on 5/5/2012?  I continue to think
> >> that there are alternatives that do not require any change to
> >> the IPv6 addressing architecture, nor use such a big
> >> percentage of the multicast group ID space.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> FWIW, I just submitted a updated version taking into account
> >> the comments received during the IETF LC:
> >>>
> >>> * Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review
> >>> * Title change (comment from C. Bormann)
> >>> * Added a new section to describe the algorithm to
> >> embed/extract the IPv4 address (comment from C. Bormann)
> >>> * Added some pointers to documents making use of the address
> >> format (comment from C. Bormann)
> >>> * Added an appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed
> >> (comment from C. Bormann)
> >>> * Added an appendix to explain why an address format is
> >> needed (comment from C. Bormann)
> >>> * Added examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64
> >> (comment from C. Bormann)
> >>>
> >>> Diff from previous version:
> >>>
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mboned-64-multica
> >> st-address-format-02
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Med
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] De
> >> la part de mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> >>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012 14:50
> >>> =C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
> >>> Cc : Brian Haberman;
> >> draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org
> >>> Objet : draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> During the IETF LC for
> >> draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian suggested
> >> to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33
> >> (SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered
> >> that approach in an early version of the document but it has
> >> been abandoned because of comments we received at that time.
> >> We recorded the rationale behind our design choice in:
> >>>
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-addre
> >> ss-format-01#appendix-A.2.
> >>>
> >>> We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the following:
> >>>
> >>> (1) Should we maintain the current design choice
> >>> (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?
> >>>
> >>> FWIW, discussion related to th



--=20
Jon Steen
106 Apple Creek Road
Frederick, MD 21702

--047d7b162fd76faf2c04c0e7cfe9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry all, coming into this late. I have read the RFC and really do not get=
 why you would want to do IPv4 to IPv6 multicast translation. =A0Is there r=
eally multicast information that is only IPv4 capable? From everything I ha=
ve used multicast for in the past, the data does not care about the IP prot=
ocol used. What is the reliance of this RFC?


Jon Steen

On Friday, May 25, 2012, Bob H=
inden  wrote:
Med,



On May 23, 2012, at 10:38 PM, <mohamed.bouca=
dair@orange.com> <mohamed.boucadair@o=
range.com> wrote:




> Dear Bob,

>

> Yes, I read that message. It is one of reasons I added two appendixes =
to explain:





Not seeing a response on the list, it wasn't clear to me.



>

> * Why an Address Format is Needed for Multicast IPv4-IPv6 Interconnect=
ion? (http://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-02#appendix-A.1)




This just restates that you want the translator to be stateless. =A0I under=
stand that.



> * Why Identifying an IPv4-Embedded IPv6 Multicast Address is Required?=
 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format-02#appendix-A.2)






The issue isn't why embedding the IPv4 multicast address in the IPv6 mu=
lticast address is needed, the issue is the way you do it.



Appendix A2 does not address one of the alternatives I described where you =
would preallocate (and register at the IANA) a group of multicast group IDs=
 (~ 2^^28). =A0This would allow a 1:1 stateless mapping function. =A0It wou=
ld avoid any changes to the IPv6 addressing architecture, and would use muc=
h less of the IPv6 multicast address space. =A0Your current proposal reduce=
s the IPv6 multicast group space by a factor of 16 in the ASM case, and a f=
actor of 16 million in the SSM case. =A0This is very wasteful given you onl=
y need to represent 2^^28 total possible IPv4 multicast groups.




>

> You may also refer to slide 7 of http://www.ietf.o=
rg/proceedings/83/slides/slides-83-mboned-5.pdf for the overall approac=
h.


>

> Could you please check the new text and let me know if it solves your =
concerns? Thanks.



My concern remains.



Bob



>

> Cheers

> Med

>

>

>> -----Message d'origine-----

>> De : Bob Hinden [mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com]

>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 23 mai 2012 18:38

>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed OLNC/NAD/TIP

>> Cc : Bob Hinden; ipv6@ietf.org

>> Objet : Re: draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format

>>

>> Med,

>>

>> On May 23, 2012, at 6:20 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>

>> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Dear all,

>>>

>>> Many thanks for the individuals who read the draft and

>> provided some comment.

>>>

>>> My read of the the answers received in this thread is there
>> is no strong reasons to question the design choices as

>> documented in the draft.

>>

>> Did you see my comments sent on 5/5/2012? =A0I continue to think
>> that there are alternatives that do not require any change to

>> the IPv6 addressing architecture, nor use such a big

>> percentage of the multicast group ID space.

>>

>> Bob

>>

>>

>>>

>>> FWIW, I just submitted a updated version taking into account
>> the comments received during the IETF LC:

>>>

>>> * Editorial changes as suggested in SM's review

>>> * Title change (comment from C. Bormann)

>>> * Added a new section to describe the algorithm to

>> embed/extract the IPv4 address (comment from C. Bormann)

>>> * Added some pointers to documents making use of the address
>> format (comment from C. Bormann)

>>> * Added an appendix to explain why an M-bit is needed

>> (comment from C. Bormann)

>>> * Added an appendix to explain why an address format is

>> needed (comment from C. Bormann)

>>> * Added examples of means to provision the MPREFIX64

>> (comment from C. Bormann)

>>>

>>> Diff from previous version:

>>>

>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ie=
tf-mboned-64-multica

>> st-address-format-02

>>>

>>> Cheers,

>>> Med

>>>

>>>

>>> De : ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf=
.org] De

>> la part de mohamed.boucadair@orange.com

>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 4 mai 2012 14:50

>>> =C0 : mboned-chairs@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org

>>> Cc : Brian Haberman;

>> draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format@tools.ietf.org

>>> Objet : draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format

>>>

>>>

>>> Dear all,

>>>

>>> During the IETF LC for

>> draft-ietf-mboned-64-multicast-address-format, Brian suggested

>> to use the remaining flag instead of reserving ff3x:0:8000/33

>> (SSM) and ffxx:8000/17 (ASM) blocks. FYI, we have considered

>> that approach in an early version of the document but it has

>> been abandoned because of comments we received at that time.

>> We recorded the rationale behind our design choice in:

>>>

>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mboned-64=
-multicast-addre

>> ss-format-01#appendix-A.2.

>>>

>>> We are seeking more feedback from 6man and mboned on the follo=
wing:

>>>

>>> (1) Should we maintain the current design choice

>>> (2) Or adopt the suggestion from Brian?

>>>

>>> FWIW, discussion related to th


-- Jon Steen
106 Apple Creek Road
Frederick, MD 21702



--047d7b162fd76faf2c04c0e7cfe9--

From tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com  Sat May 26 08:06:34 2012
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I think there's a misunderstanding here. The only requirement is to 
translate the IP headers. The document in question deals with the 
address translation part of that task.

On 25/05/2012 11:09 PM, Jon Steen wrote:
> Sorry all, coming into this late. I have read the RFC and really do not get
> why you would want to do IPv4 to IPv6 multicast translation.  Is there
> really multicast information that is only IPv4 capable? From everything I
> have used multicast for in the past, the data does not care about the IP
> protocol used. What is the reliance of this RFC?
>
> Jon Steen
>
...

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue May 29 08:28:16 2012
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From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : Representing IPv6 Zone Identifiers in Uniform Resource I=
dentifiers
	Author(s)       : Brian Carpenter
                          Robert M. Hinden
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2012-05-29

   This document describes how the Zone Identifier of an IPv6 scoped
   address can be represented in a Uniform Resource Identifier that
   includes a literal IPv6 address.  It updates RFC 3986 and RFC 4007.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt

The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid/


From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Tue May 29 08:36:42 2012
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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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This version favours the option that seemed to get the
most positive reaction on the list. There's been quite some
restructuring of the draft since the -00 version, so
please read it through and send comments.

   Brian + Bob

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:28:15 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipv6@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6
Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Representing IPv6 Zone Identifiers in Uniform Resource Identifiers
	Author(s)       : Brian Carpenter
                          Robert M. Hinden
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2012-05-29

   This document describes how the Zone Identifier of an IPv6 scoped
   address can be represented in a Uniform Resource Identifier that
   includes a literal IPv6 address.  It updates RFC 3986 and RFC 4007.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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From albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com  Tue May 29 17:14:23 2012
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From: "Manfredi, Albert E" 
To: "ipv6@ietf.org" 
Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 19:14:18 -0500
Subject: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
Thread-Topic: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
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I'm sure that I'm remembering correctly that we had quite a few posts, back=
 and forth, about whether or not IPv6 addresses should be represented in lo=
wer case hexadecimal. And as I recall, the WG consensus seemed to be that u=
pper case hex was a somewhat "dated" way of showing hex, and that addresses=
 looked better in lower case.

Next thing you know, I'm going along based on this recollection, I look up =
RFC 5952, and I notice there's now an "errata" associated with it. Would th=
at errata be about some grammatical minutiae? Nope. It's specifically to sw=
itch back to upper case hex representation! The errata says MUST for upperc=
ase use, not even SHOULD, let alone MAY.

Then I notice that Win7 uses upper case hex for physical addresses, but low=
er case for IPv6 addresses. And to be even more weird, the DUID for IPv6 is=
 shown in upper case.

So my question is, what transpired after all those discussions about this s=
ubject? Has the "errata" to RFC 5952 been written but ignored? Did I just m=
iss the discussions on the errata? Is common usage trumping any errata? In =
short, should I be using upper case or lower case, for IPv6 addresses?

Bert




From randy@psg.com  Tue May 29 17:37:32 2012
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Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 09:37:29 +0900
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From: Randy Bush 
To: "Manfredi, Albert E" 
Subject: Re: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
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References: 
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> Next thing you know, I'm going along based on this recollection, I
> look up RFC 5952, and I notice there's now an "errata" associated with
> it. Would that errata be about some grammatical minutiae? Nope. It's
> specifically to switch back to upper case hex representation!

there is a lesson here

randy

From kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp  Tue May 29 18:04:14 2012
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From: Seiichi Kawamura 
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To: Randy Bush 
Subject: Re: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
References:  
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After the errata was posted, there was a short discussion on
6man about this and comments were made that lower case was a
WG decision and it stands. My apologies for forgetting to
update the status.

Regards,
Seiichi

(2012/05/30 9:37), Randy Bush wrote:
>> Next thing you know, I'm going along based on this recollection, I
>> look up RFC 5952, and I notice there's now an "errata" associated with=

>> it. Would that errata be about some grammatical minutiae? Nope. It's
>> specifically to switch back to upper case hex representation!
>=20
> there is a lesson here
>=20
> randy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


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From marka@isc.org  Tue May 29 18:18:27 2012
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To: Randy Bush 
From: Mark Andrews 
References:  
Subject: Re: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 May 2012 09:37:29 +0900." 
Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 11:18:07 +1000
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In message , Randy Bush writes:
> > Next thing you know, I'm going along based on this recollection, I
> > look up RFC 5952, and I notice there's now an "errata" associated with
> > it. Would that errata be about some grammatical minutiae? Nope. It's
> > specifically to switch back to upper case hex representation!
> 
> there is a lesson here
> 
> randy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

It is only "Reported".  I would say that it needs to be moved to
"Rejected". 

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Wed May 30 00:03:52 2012
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Subject: Re: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
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On 2012-05-30 02:18, Mark Andrews wrote:
> In message , Randy Bush writes:
>>> Next thing you know, I'm going along based on this recollection, I
>>> look up RFC 5952, and I notice there's now an "errata" associated with
>>> it. Would that errata be about some grammatical minutiae? Nope. It's
>>> specifically to switch back to upper case hex representation!
>> there is a lesson here
>>
>> randy
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> It is only "Reported".  I would say that it needs to be moved to
> "Rejected". 

Obviously. An erratum that attempts to reverse a clear WG consensus
that the person doesn't like is a misuse of the errata system.

   Brian

From randy@psg.com  Wed May 30 02:50:39 2012
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Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 18:50:35 +0900
Message-ID: 
From: Randy Bush 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Subject: Re: RFC 5952, the errata, and real-world usage
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> Obviously. An erratum that attempts to reverse a clear WG consensus
> that the person doesn't like is a misuse of the errata system.

that is not exactly what occurred.  and blame is not very interesting
anyway.  i have asked the rfced if they can do a derattum.  others migh
support this if it is questioned.

randy

From ietfc@btconnect.com  Thu May 31 01:39:41 2012
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From: t.petch 
To: Brian E Carpenter , 6man 
References: <4FC4ED00.5050603@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt]
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 09:36:21 +0100
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Looks good.

I wonder about the first sentence,
"This document describes how the Zone Identifier of an IPv6 scoped
   address can be represented in a Uniform Resource Identifier that
   includes a literal IPv6 address. "

in that the specification now goes beyond just a literal IPv6 address so
that
last conditional clause is, while not wrong, perhaps too restrictive, as
will be clear to anyone who reads on.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian E Carpenter" 
To: "6man" 
Cc: "Bob Hinden" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:36 PM
Subject: [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt]


> This version favours the option that seemed to get the
> most positive reaction on the list. There's been quite some
> restructuring of the draft since the -00 version, so
> please read it through and send comments.
>
>    Brian + Bob
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
> Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:28:15 -0700
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> CC: ipv6@ietf.org
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6
> Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.
>
> Title           : Representing IPv6 Zone Identifiers in Uniform
Resource Identifiers
> Author(s)       : Brian Carpenter
>                           Robert M. Hinden
> Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
> Pages           : 9
> Date            : 2012-05-29
>
>    This document describes how the Zone Identifier of an IPv6 scoped
>    address can be represented in a Uniform Resource Identifier that
>    includes a literal IPv6 address.  It updates RFC 3986 and RFC 4007.
>
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
>
> The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
>
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>



From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Thu May 31 10:30:11 2012
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On 2012-05-31 09:36, t.petch wrote:
> Looks good.
> 
> I wonder about the first sentence,
> "This document describes how the Zone Identifier of an IPv6 scoped
>    address can be represented in a Uniform Resource Identifier that
>    includes a literal IPv6 address. "
> 
> in that the specification now goes beyond just a literal IPv6 address so

Where? The only proposal concerns the literal address format (at
least that is the intention).

  Brian

> that
> last conditional clause is, while not wrong, perhaps too restrictive, as
> will be clear to anyone who reads on.
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian E Carpenter" 
> To: "6man" 
> Cc: "Bob Hinden" 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:36 PM
> Subject: [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt]
> 
> 
>> This version favours the option that seemed to get the
>> most positive reaction on the list. There's been quite some
>> restructuring of the draft since the -00 version, so
>> please read it through and send comments.
>>
>>    Brian + Bob
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:28:15 -0700
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> CC: ipv6@ietf.org
>>
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6
>> Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> Title           : Representing IPv6 Zone Identifiers in Uniform
> Resource Identifiers
>> Author(s)       : Brian Carpenter
>>                           Robert M. Hinden
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
>> Pages           : 9
>> Date            : 2012-05-29
>>
>>    This document describes how the Zone Identifier of an IPv6 scoped
>>    address can be represented in a Uniform Resource Identifier that
>>    includes a literal IPv6 address.  It updates RFC 3986 and RFC 4007.
>>
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid-01.txt
>>
>> The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-uri-zoneid/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> 
> 
> 

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu May 31 14:14:22 2012
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From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol version =
6 (IPv6)
	Author(s)       : Dave Thaler
                          Richard Draves
                          Arifumi Matsumoto
                          Tim Chown
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-05.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2012-05-31

   This document describes two algorithms, one for source address
   selection and one for destination address selection.  The algorithms
   specify default behavior for all Internet Protocol version 6 (IPv6)
   implementations.  They do not override choices made by applications
   or upper-layer protocols, nor do they preclude the development of
   more advanced mechanisms for address selection.  The two algorithms
   share a common context, including an optional mechanism for allowing
   administrators to provide policy that can override the default
   behavior.  In dual stack implementations, the destination address
   selection algorithm can consider both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses -
   depending on the available source addresses, the algorithm might
   prefer IPv6 addresses over IPv4 addresses, or vice-versa.

   Default address selection as defined in this specification applies to
   all IPv6 nodes, including both hosts and routers.  This document
   obsoletes RFC 3484.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-05.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis-05.txt

The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis/


From dthaler@microsoft.com  Thu May 31 14:24:32 2012
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From: Dave Thaler 
To: Brian Haberman , "draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis@tools.ietf.org" , 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, 6man WG 
Subject: RE: AD Review : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484bis
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Brian Haberman writes:
>       Here are my comments on the Address Selection draft.  I think it=20
> is in really good shape and only have a few=20
> comments/questions/suggestions.  Many of these are related to text=20
> directly inherited from RFC 3484, so I am willing to listen to push back =
on making those changes.
>=20
> 1. The first line of the Abstract does not read well.  I suggest changing=
 it to "...
> two algorithms, one for source address selection and one for...".

Done

> 2. There has been resistance to having normative text in the Abstract=20
> and the first sentence of the second paragraph certainly sounds=20
> normative.  Any objection to striking that first sentence?  Would it=20
> make sense to move that sentence to the last paragraph in the Introductio=
n?

Reworded to not sound normative.  Now reads:
"Default address selection as defined in this specification applies to all =
IPv6
nodes, including both hosts and routers."

> 3. The fourth paragraph of section 2 says apps SHOULD iterate through=20
> the list of addresses returned from getaddrinfo().  It would be useful=20
> to identify what exceptions to that rule are reasonable.

Changed to
"Well-behaved applications SHOULD NOT simply use the first address
returned from getaddrinfo() and then give up if it fails.  For
many applications, it is appropriate to iterate through the list of
addresses returned from getaddrinfo() until a working address is
found.  For other applications, it might be appropriate to try
multiple in parallel (e.g., with some small delay in between)
and use the first one to succeed."

I believe this is still in line with the intent of the original WG recommen=
dation,
but takes into account happy-eyeballs-like solutions.

> 4. Section 2.1 (6th paragraph) mentions ULAs and 6to4 without=20
> expansion or reference.  It would be good to spell out what those are.

Expanded ULA.   Added references to both.   (Reference to 6to4 RFC was
already later in the same paragraph, so moved it up to first use.)

> 5. I am curious as to what the rationale was for changing the text in=20
> section 2.2 as opposed to keeping the original text from RFC 3484.  In=20
> making that change, why is only the length of S's prefix listed as a stop=
ping criteria for comparison?

The rationale is explained in Appendix B, point 1 of the second list.

> 6. In section 3.1, I find it confusing to discuss "unicast site-local"
> and not mention the scope of ULAs.  In fact, it may be worthwhile to=20
> mention in section 2.1 that the placement of FEC0::/10 is based on the=20
> site-local prefix having been deprecated.

Some people would prefer to map ULAs to the multicast site-local scope,
but doing so was contentious.   So the scope is global per RFC 4193
"In practice, applications may treat these addresses like global
scoped addresses."

Added
"(Note that ULAs are considered as global, not site-local, scope
but are handled via the prefix policy table as discussed in
Section 10.6.)"

It's also mentioned in point 2 of the first list in Appendix B.
Point 3 of that list explains the placement of fec0::/10.
Discussion of the placement of the rows is not appropriate in=20
section 3.1, which is about the rules that explicitly use scope(),
which are separate from the rules using the prefix policy table.
=20
> 7. Section 5 states "...the remaining rules are applied (in order) to=20
> ...".  I would like to see this rule strengthened with the use of MUST=20
> or SHOULD. =20

The RFC style guide says to "avoid overuse of MUST".   However since
the previous phrasing already implied it's a MUST, I've gone ahead and chan=
ged
"are applied" to "MUST be applied" as a purely editorial clarification.

> In addition, the last paragraph in the section may lead=20
> some implementers to consider some of the rules as optional.  Is that rea=
lly what we want?

I think that's a holdover from a very early version of the draft that led t=
o RFC 3484.
As you noted from the previous abstract text, it's all mandatory.
(Of course some rules are no-ops like if you don't implement mobility, then
"prefer home" vs "prefer care-of addresses" in source addr selection is a n=
o-op.)

The sentence Brian refers to is
" Rule 2 (prefer appropriate scope) MUST be implemented and given high
   priority because it can affect interoperability."

I've dropped that sentence because of the confusion Brian suggests and
because dropping it doesn't actually change any requirements not already
stated elsewhere.
=20
> 8. This comment is driven by text in Section 6, but there are other=20
> cases throughout the document.  In several places, I find "should" and=20
> "may" being used in situations where it could be normative.  Is the=20
> intent to interpret
> mixed- and lower-case 2119 keywords as normative?

"may" always means "MAY" when specifying behavior, and means "might" when t=
alking informatively.
Similarly, "should" always means "MUST" when specifying behavior.

I've gone and replaced all uses of "should" and "may" as appropriate,
to be consistent with the original meaning.

> 9. Section 7 contains an indirect reference to a rule by using "Rule=20
> 5.5".  It would read better if it said something like "Rule 5 in=20
> Section 5" or something similar.

Yes this was confusing since both source and destination address selection
algorithms have numbered rules.  Changed to
"source address selection (Section 5) Rule 5.5"

> Once we resolve these, the draft can move along to IETF Last Call.

I believe these should all be resolved now.

-Dave

>=20
> Regards,
> Brian
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