From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 1 17:22:40 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04238 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g61KvYt35825; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com [47.164.128.120]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5AGfrt60390 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com [47.137.129.92]) by zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5AH05J07479; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:00:05 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5AH03j07332; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:00:03 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:00:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB706@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Tony Przygienda'" Cc: "'Mike Truskowski'" , mshand@cisco.com, isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C210A0.3ADE8AB0" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:00:02 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C210A0.3ADE8AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am guessing that OUI means an IEEE assigned MAC address? If so then it sounds okay to me. I'll write it if you like. Philip > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch] > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > Yes, the proposals have been made before and nohting has been written > down. I am > for using the official OUI, this would be aligned with Frame > Relay, ATM > and so on. > The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address space is a > volatile thing > compared to > OUIs. I assume any vendor building sophisticated networking gear with > ISIS on it > will at a certain point have an OUI, I see little value in having a > /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ... > > So, this time any takers to write it down ? > > thanks > > -- tony > > > Philip Christian wrote: > > > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 address. > > Then no-one would have to assign them. The vendor just uses > a global > > IPv4 address that he has. > > > > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP address for this purpose. > > > > That would work. > > > > Philip > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com ] > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 PM > > > To: mshand@cisco.com > > > Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; > isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > > > > Why not just do the following? > > > > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > | Type | Length | Value | > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > | TLV # | Length | vendor code | "value" | > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 octets? > > > > > > I guess one could do this on their own... couldn't they? > > > > > > The major problem I see here is what Philip said he > wanted to fix... > > > > > > If vendors are doing this already and this is trying to avoid > > > interoperability > > > problems... then it would seem reasonable that the carrier > > > would go back and > > > install new images or force the vendor to fix the embedded > > > base.. but they > > > won't do either.. thus leaving the problem to stumble > over some day... > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > > > > >I suppose that we could define different sub-TLVs, a > > > sub-TLV if the > > > > >identifier is an IPv4 address, a different sub-TLV if it > > > is a MAC address, etc > > > > > > > > > >Then folks could use whichever mechanism they prefer, as > > > long as it is a > > > > >globally unique identifier. > > > > > > > > > >Or is that too complex? > > > > > > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses got to be so awful :-) > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Philip > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: mike shand > > > [mailto:mshand@cisco.com ] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:24 PM > > > > > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > > > > > > Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > > >Looking at > draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I notice > > > > > > that there is > > > > > > >not really any mechanism for private or proprietary > > > use of a TLV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thus various companies (including my own) have just pcked > > > > > > one and used it > > > > > > >for their own purpose. Eventually this will create an > > > > > > interop problem, > > > > > > >but what else is a company to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Is there a way that we could define that a certain TLV > > > number is for > > > > > > >private / proprietary / experimental purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This would then stop people just picking one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am thinking that there would have to be some sort of > > > > > > entity identifier > > > > > > >in there so that when you see this TLV you know whether it > > > > > > is yours or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Maybe we could define that the first four bytes are an IP > > > > > > address for > > > > > > >example. Any entity large enough to want to use a > > > > > > proprietary TLV would > > > > > > >have a public IP address to put in there, I would have > > > > > > thought. After the > > > > > > >first for bytes then the rest would be free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Or maybe there is a better way to identify a particular > > > > > > company / entity > > > > > > >(like a MAC address)? Maybe ISO 8348? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What do people think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Philip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This has been suggested before, but never came to > anything. I > > > > > > think if it > > > > > > WERE to be done then using something link the MAC OUI would > > > > > > probably work. > > > > > > What do you mean by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I > > > hope not :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C210A0.3ADE8AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

I am guessing that OUI means an IEEE assigned MAC address?

If so then it sounds okay to me.

I'll write it if you like.

Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch]
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM
> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
>
>
> Yes, the proposals have been made before and nohting has been written
> down. I am
> for using the official OUI, this would be aligned with Frame
> Relay, ATM
> and so on.
> The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address space is a
> volatile thing
> compared to
> OUIs. I assume any vendor building sophisticated networking gear with
> ISIS on it
> will at a certain point have an OUI, I see little value in having a
> /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ...
>
> So, this time any takers to write it down ?
>
>     thanks
>
>     -- tony
>
>
> Philip Christian wrote:
>
> > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 address.
> > Then no-one would have to assign them. The vendor just uses
> a global
> > IPv4 address that he has.
> >
> > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP address for this purpose.
> >
> > That would work.
> >
> > Philip
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com ]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 PM
> > > To: mshand@cisco.com
> > > Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH];
> isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > >
> > >
> > > Why not just do the following?
> > >
> > > +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > | Type   |  Length  |       Value                 |
> > > +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > | TLV #  |  Length  |  vendor code  |   "value"   |
> > > +-------------------------------------------------+
> > >
> > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 octets?
> > >
> > > I guess one could do this on their own... couldn't they?
> > >
> > > The major problem I see here is what Philip said he
> wanted to fix...
> > >
> > > If vendors are doing this already and this is trying to avoid
> > > interoperability
> > > problems... then it would seem reasonable that the carrier
> > > would go back and
> > > install new images or force the vendor to fix the embedded
> > > base..  but they
> > > won't do either.. thus leaving the problem to stumble
> over some day...
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I suppose that we could define different sub-TLVs, a
> > > sub-TLV if the
> > > > >identifier is an IPv4 address, a different sub-TLV if it
> > > is a MAC address, etc
> > > > >
> > > > >Then folks could use whichever mechanism they prefer, as
> > > long as it is a
> > > > >globally unique identifier.
> > > > >
> > > > >Or is that too complex?
> > > >
> > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses got to be so awful :-)
> > > >
> > > >          Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Philip
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: mike shand
> > > [<mailto:mshand@cisco.com >mailto:mshand@cisco.com ]
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:24 PM
> > > > > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> > > > > > Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> > > > > > >Looking at
> draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I notice
> > > > > > that there is
> > > > > > >not really any mechanism for private or proprietary
> > > use of a TLV.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Thus various companies (including my own) have just pcked
> > > > > > one and used it
> > > > > > >for their own purpose.  Eventually this will create an
> > > > > > interop problem,
> > > > > > >but what else is a company to do?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is there a way that we could define that a certain TLV
> > > number is for
> > > > > > >private / proprietary / experimental purposes?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >This would then stop people just picking one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I am thinking that there would have to be some sort of
> > > > > > entity identifier
> > > > > > >in there so that when you see this TLV you know whether it
> > > > > > is yours or not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Maybe we could define that the first four bytes are an IP
> > > > > > address for
> > > > > > >example.  Any entity large enough to want to use a
> > > > > > proprietary TLV would
> > > > > > >have a public IP address to put in there, I would have
> > > > > > thought. After the
> > > > > > >first for bytes then the rest would be free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Or maybe there is a better way to identify a particular
> > > > > > company / entity
> > > > > > >(like a MAC address)?  Maybe ISO 8348?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >What do people think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Philip
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This has been suggested before, but never came to
> anything. I
> > > > > > think if it
> > > > > > WERE to be done then using something link the MAC OUI would
> > > > > > probably work.
> > > > > > What do you mean by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I
> > > hope not :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Mike
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Isis-wg mailing list  -  Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C210A0.3ADE8AB0-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 1 19:15:55 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA09133 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g61Mokt36427; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from mail4.nec.com (dns4.nec.com [131.241.15.4]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g61McHt36365 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com) Received: from netkeeper.sj.nec.com (netkeeper.sj.nec.com [131.241.31.2]) by mail4.nec.com (/) with ESMTP id g61Mwjb04650; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from necsun.tdd.sj.nec.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netkeeper.sj.nec.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00913; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunny.tdd.sj.nec.com by necsun.tdd.sj.nec.com with ESMTP id g61MqFGL019742; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ems11 (ems11 [131.241.5.62]) by bunny.tdd.sj.nec.com with SMTP id g61MqDJx006663; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:02:34 -0700 Message-ID: <01C22118.B6A1BD60.ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com> From: ramanathan rams Reply-To: "ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com" To: "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" Cc: "'ramanathan_rams@hotmail.com'" Organization: NEC X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 21 TEXT Subject: [Isis-wg] doubts. Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:02:33 -0700 hi all, could u please explain me the following doubts? In the ISIS extensions for TE draft, * IPV4 Address sub TLV gives the IPv4 Address of the interface described by the main TLV. Main TLV is IS extended reachability TLV. And IS extended reachability describes about the link to the neighbour. So the IPv4 Address of the interface described is the IPv4 Address of the neighbour. is this right? if so, what does the IPv4 neighbour address sub TLV describe? * we have IP reachability TLV also. Could u please explain me the reason why all the TE properties sub TLVs are added to IS reachability TLV rather than IP reachability TLV?. thanks rams. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 1 19:50:32 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10072 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g61NQPt36625; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from yarilo.pluris.com (yarilo.pluris.com [208.227.9.200]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g61NA9t36546 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from satish@pluris.com) Received: from avalon.pluris.com (avalon.pluris.com [172.16.50.49]) by yarilo.pluris.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA19609; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by avalon.pluris.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:30:36 -0700 Message-ID: <17C81AD1F1FED411991E006008F6D1CA029E8406@avalon.pluris.com> From: Satish Dattatri To: "'ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com'" , "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" Cc: "'ramanathan_rams@hotmail.com'" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] doubts. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:30:34 -0700 o Traffic engg needs information about links and the best way is to put that info along with the IS neighbors. There are 2 interface address(es) our own put in the IPV4 Address sub-tlv and the IPV4 Neighbor Address sub-tlv contains the neigh's. o In order to compute route(s) we need the IP reachability information. Remember this draft is talking about new TLVs as replacement for the Old advertisement of IS Neighbor TLV, IP Internal Reachability Option and IP External Reachability Option. Both the Old and the New options may co-exist until the transition is completed. Hope that helps, satish > -----Original Message----- > From: ramanathan rams [mailto:ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com] > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:03 PM > To: 'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net' > Cc: 'ramanathan_rams@hotmail.com' > Subject: [Isis-wg] doubts. > > > hi all, > > could u please explain me the following doubts? > > In the ISIS extensions for TE draft, > > * IPV4 Address sub TLV gives the IPv4 Address of the > interface described > by the main TLV. > Main TLV is IS extended reachability TLV. And IS extended > reachability > describes about the link to the neighbour. So the IPv4 > Address of the > interface described is the IPv4 Address of the neighbour. is > this right? > if so, what does the IPv4 neighbour address sub TLV describe? > > * we have IP reachability TLV also. Could u please explain > me the reason > why all the TE properties sub TLVs are added to IS > reachability TLV rather > than IP reachability TLV?. > > thanks > rams. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Tue Jul 2 11:45:27 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23564 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g62FK8t41755; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g62Evat41642 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:57:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g62FINSk025254; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABV16603; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020702111702.01abcd48@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Philip Christian" From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "'Tony Przygienda'" , "'Mike Truskowski'" , mshand@cisco.com, isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB706@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_83142652==_.ALT" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:17:43 -0400 --=====================_83142652==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:00 PM 6/10/2002, Philip Christian wrote: >I am guessing that OUI means an IEEE assigned MAC address? It's the first three bytes of an IEEE assigned MAC address. An OUI can be used for purposes other than assigning MAC addresses. See http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.shtml for more info. Jeff >If so then it sounds okay to me. > >I'll write it if you like. > >Philip > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch] >> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM >> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >> Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> >> >> Yes, the proposals have been made before and nohting has been written >> down. I am >> for using the official OUI, this would be aligned with Frame >> Relay, ATM >> and so on. >> The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address space is a >> volatile thing >> compared to >> OUIs. I assume any vendor building sophisticated networking gear with >> ISIS on it >> will at a certain point have an OUI, I see little value in having a >> /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ... >> >> So, this time any takers to write it down ? >> >> thanks >> >> -- tony >> >> >> Philip Christian wrote: >> >> > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 address. >> > Then no-one would have to assign them. The vendor just uses >> a global >> > IPv4 address that he has. >> > >> > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP address for this purpose. >> > >> > That would work. >> > >> > Philip >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com ] >> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 PM >> > > To: mshand@cisco.com >> > > Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; >> isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> > > >> > > >> > > Why not just do the following? >> > > >> > > +-------------------------------------------------+ >> > > | Type | Length | Value | >> > > +-------------------------------------------------+ >> > > | TLV # | Length | vendor code | "value" | >> > > +-------------------------------------------------+ >> > > >> > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 octets? >> > > >> > > I guess one could do this on their own... couldn't they? >> > > >> > > The major problem I see here is what Philip said he >> wanted to fix... >> > > >> > > If vendors are doing this already and this is trying to avoid >> > > interoperability >> > > problems... then it would seem reasonable that the carrier >> > > would go back and >> > > install new images or force the vendor to fix the embedded >> > > base.. but they >> > > won't do either.. thus leaving the problem to stumble >> over some day... >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >I suppose that we could define different sub-TLVs, a >> > > sub-TLV if the >> > > > >identifier is an IPv4 address, a different sub-TLV if it >> > > is a MAC address, etc >> > > > > >> > > > >Then folks could use whichever mechanism they prefer, as >> > > long as it is a >> > > > >globally unique identifier. >> > > > > >> > > > >Or is that too complex? >> > > > >> > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses got to be so awful :-) >> > > > >> > > > Mike >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >Philip >> > > > > >> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > > From: mike shand >> > > [<mailto:mshand@cisco.com >mailto:mshand@cisco.com ] >> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:24 PM >> > > > > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >> > > > > > Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >> > > > > > >Looking at >> draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I notice >> > > > > > that there is >> > > > > > >not really any mechanism for private or proprietary >> > > use of a TLV. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Thus various companies (including my own) have just pcked >> > > > > > one and used it >> > > > > > >for their own purpose. Eventually this will create an >> > > > > > interop problem, >> > > > > > >but what else is a company to do? >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Is there a way that we could define that a certain TLV >> > > number is for >> > > > > > >private / proprietary / experimental purposes? >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >This would then stop people just picking one. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >I am thinking that there would have to be some sort of >> > > > > > entity identifier >> > > > > > >in there so that when you see this TLV you know whether it >> > > > > > is yours or not. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Maybe we could define that the first four bytes are an IP >> > > > > > address for >> > > > > > >example. Any entity large enough to want to use a >> > > > > > proprietary TLV would >> > > > > > >have a public IP address to put in there, I would have >> > > > > > thought. After the >> > > > > > >first for bytes then the rest would be free. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Or maybe there is a better way to identify a particular >> > > > > > company / entity >> > > > > > >(like a MAC address)? Maybe ISO 8348? >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >What do people think? >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Philip >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > This has been suggested before, but never came to >> anything. I >> > > > > > think if it >> > > > > > WERE to be done then using something link the MAC OUI would >> > > > > > probably work. >> > > > > > What do you mean by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I >> > > hope not :-) >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Mike >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> --=====================_83142652==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 01:00 PM 6/10/2002, Philip Christian wrote:

I am guessing that OUI means an IEEE assigned MAC address?

It's the first three bytes of an IEEE assigned MAC address.
An OUI can be used for purposes other than assigning MAC addresses.

See http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.shtml for more info.

Jeff


If so then it sounds okay to me.

I'll write it if you like.

Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch]
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM
> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
>
>
> Yes, the proposals have been made before and nohting has been written
> down. I am
> for using the official OUI, this would be aligned with Frame
> Relay, ATM
> and so on.
> The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address space is a
> volatile thing
> compared to
> OUIs. I assume any vendor building sophisticated networking gear with
> ISIS on it
> will at a certain point have an OUI, I see little value in having a
> /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ...
>
> So, this time any takers to write it down ?
>
>     thanks
>
>     -- tony
>
>
> Philip Christian wrote:
>
> > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 address.
> > Then no-one would have to assign them. The vendor just uses
> a global
> > IPv4 address that he has.
> >
> > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP address for this purpose.
> >
> > That would work.
> >
> > Philip
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com ]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 PM
> > > To: mshand@cisco.com
> > > Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH];
> isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > >
> > >
> > > Why not just do the following?
> > >
> > > +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > | Type   |  Length  |       Value                 |
> > > +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > | TLV #  |  Length  |  vendor code  |   "value"   |
> > > +-------------------------------------------------+
> > >
> > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 octets?
> > >
> > > I guess one could do this on their own... couldn't they?
> > >
> > > The major problem I see here is what Philip said he
> wanted to fix...
> > >
> > > If vendors are doing this already and this is trying to avoid
> > > interoperability
> > > problems... then it would seem reasonable that the carrier
> > > would go back and
> > > install new images or force the vendor to fix the embedded
> > > base..  but they
> > > won't do either.. thus leaving the problem to stumble
> over some day...
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I suppose that we could define different sub-TLVs, a
> > > sub-TLV if the
> > > > >identifier is an IPv4 address, a different sub-TLV if it
> > > is a MAC address, etc
> > > > >
> > > > >Then folks could use whichever mechanism they prefer, as
> > > long as it is a
> > > > >globally unique identifier.
> > > > >
> > > > >Or is that too complex?
> > > >
> > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses got to be so awful :-)
> > > >
> > > >          Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Philip
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: mike shand
> > > [<mailto:mshand@cisco.com >mailto:mshand@cisco.com ]
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:24 PM
> > > > > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> > > > > > Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> > > > > > >Looking at
> draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I notice
> > > > > > that there is
> > > > > > >not really any mechanism for private or proprietary
> > > use of a TLV.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Thus various companies (including my own) have just pcked
> > > > > > one and used it
> > > > > > >for their own purpose.  Eventually this will create an
> > > > > > interop problem,
> > > > > > >but what else is a company to do?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is there a way that we could define that a certain TLV
> > > number is for
> > > > > > >private / proprietary / experimental purposes?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >This would then stop people just picking one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I am thinking that there would have to be some sort of
> > > > > > entity identifier
> > > > > > >in there so that when you see this TLV you know whether it
> > > > > > is yours or not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Maybe we could define that the first four bytes are an IP
> > > > > > address for
> > > > > > >example.  Any entity large enough to want to use a
> > > > > > proprietary TLV would
> > > > > > >have a public IP address to put in there, I would have
> > > > > > thought. After the
> > > > > > >first for bytes then the rest would be free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Or maybe there is a better way to identify a particular
> > > > > > company / entity
> > > > > > >(like a MAC address)?  Maybe ISO 8348?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >What do people think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Philip
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This has been suggested before, but never came to
> anything. I
> > > > > > think if it
> > > > > > WERE to be done then using something link the MAC OUI would
> > > > > > probably work.
> > > > > > What do you mean by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I
> > > hope not :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Mike
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Isis-wg mailing list  -  Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
--=====================_83142652==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 08:27:12 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09245 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63C2Bt48196; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 05:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com [47.164.128.120]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5AGp7t60437 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com [47.137.129.92]) by zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5AH94J10723; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:09:04 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5AH92j07835; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:09:02 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:09:02 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB707@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" Cc: "'Mike Truskowski'" , "'mshand@cisco.com'" , "'Tony Przygienda'" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C210A1.3AE6317E" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:09:01 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C210A1.3AE6317E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" And to answer my own question... One can read what OUIs are from http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.shtml still sounds okay to me Philip > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:00 PM > To: 'Tony Przygienda' > Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > I am guessing that OUI means an IEEE assigned MAC address? > > If so then it sounds okay to me. > > I'll write it if you like. > > Philip > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch] > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > > Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > Yes, the proposals have been made before and nohting has > been written > > down. I am > > for using the official OUI, this would be aligned with Frame > > Relay, ATM > > and so on. > > The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address space is a > > volatile thing > > compared to > > OUIs. I assume any vendor building sophisticated networking > gear with > > ISIS on it > > will at a certain point have an OUI, I see little value in having a > > /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ... > > > > So, this time any takers to write it down ? > > > > thanks > > > > -- tony > > > > > > Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 address. > > > Then no-one would have to assign them. The vendor just uses > > a global > > > IPv4 address that he has. > > > > > > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP address for > this purpose. > > > > > > That would work. > > > > > > Philip > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com ] > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 PM > > > > To: mshand@cisco.com > > > > Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; > > isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not just do the following? > > > > > > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > > | Type | Length | Value | > > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > > | TLV # | Length | vendor code | "value" | > > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 octets? > > > > > > > > I guess one could do this on their own... couldn't they? > > > > > > > > The major problem I see here is what Philip said he > > wanted to fix... > > > > > > > > If vendors are doing this already and this is trying to avoid > > > > interoperability > > > > problems... then it would seem reasonable that the carrier > > > > would go back and > > > > install new images or force the vendor to fix the embedded > > > > base.. but they > > > > won't do either.. thus leaving the problem to stumble > > over some day... > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >I suppose that we could define different sub-TLVs, a > > > > sub-TLV if the > > > > > >identifier is an IPv4 address, a different sub-TLV if it > > > > is a MAC address, etc > > > > > > > > > > > >Then folks could use whichever mechanism they prefer, as > > > > long as it is a > > > > > >globally unique identifier. > > > > > > > > > > > >Or is that too complex? > > > > > > > > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses got to be so awful :-) > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Philip > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: mike shand > > > > [mailto:mshand@cisco.com ] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:24 PM > > > > > > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > > > > > > > Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > > > >Looking at > > draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I notice > > > > > > > that there is > > > > > > > >not really any mechanism for private or proprietary > > > > use of a TLV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thus various companies (including my own) have just pcked > > > > > > > one and used it > > > > > > > >for their own purpose. Eventually this will create an > > > > > > > interop problem, > > > > > > > >but what else is a company to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Is there a way that we could define that a certain TLV > > > > number is for > > > > > > > >private / proprietary / experimental purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This would then stop people just picking one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am thinking that there would have to be some sort of > > > > > > > entity identifier > > > > > > > >in there so that when you see this TLV you know > whether it > > > > > > > is yours or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Maybe we could define that the first four bytes are an IP > > > > > > > address for > > > > > > > >example. Any entity large enough to want to use a > > > > > > > proprietary TLV would > > > > > > > >have a public IP address to put in there, I would have > > > > > > > thought. After the > > > > > > > >first for bytes then the rest would be free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Or maybe there is a better way to identify a particular > > > > > > > company / entity > > > > > > > >(like a MAC address)? Maybe ISO 8348? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What do people think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Philip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This has been suggested before, but never came to > > anything. I > > > > > > > think if it > > > > > > > WERE to be done then using something link the MAC > OUI would > > > > > > > probably work. > > > > > > > What do you mean by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I > > > > hope not :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C210A1.3AE6317E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

And to answer my own question...

One can read what OUIs are from
http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.shtml<= /FONT>

still sounds okay to me

Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] =
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:00 PM
> To: 'Tony Przygienda'
> Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; = isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private = TLV numbers?
>
>
> I am guessing that OUI means an IEEE assigned = MAC address?
>
> If so then it sounds okay to me.
>
> I'll write it if you like.
>
> Philip
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch]
> > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM
> > To: Christian, Philip = [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> > Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; = isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / = Private TLV numbers?
> >
> >
> > Yes, the proposals have been made before = and nohting has
> been written
> > down. I am
> > for using the official OUI, this would be = aligned with Frame
> > Relay, ATM
> > and so on.
> > The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP = address space is a
> > volatile thing
> > compared to
> > OUIs. I assume any vendor building = sophisticated networking
> gear with
> > ISIS on it
> > will at a certain point have an OUI, I see = little value in having a
> > = /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ...
> >
> > So, this time any takers to write it down = ?
> >
> >     thanks
> >
> >     -- tony
> >
> >
> > Philip Christian wrote:
> >
> > > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an = IPv4 address.
> > > Then no-one would have to assign = them. The vendor just uses
> > a global
> > > IPv4 address that he has.
> > >
> > > Even the smallest vendor can buy a = /32 IP address for
> this purpose.
> > >
> > > That would work.
> > >
> > > Philip
> > >
> > > > -----Original = Message-----
> > > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com = ]
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 = PM
> > > > To: mshand@cisco.com
> > > > Cc: Christian, Philip = [HAL02:GI50:EXCH];
> > isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] = Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why not just do the = following?
> > > >
> > > > = +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > > | Type   |  = Length  |       = Value           &= nbsp;     |
> > > > = +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > > | TLV #  |  = Length  |  vendor code  |   = "value"   |
> > > > = +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > >
> > > > Where the vendor code is a fixed = 3-4 octets?
> > > >
> > > > I guess one could do this on = their own... couldn't they?
> > > >
> > > > The major problem I see here is = what Philip said he
> > wanted to fix...
> > > >
> > > > If vendors are doing this = already and this is trying to avoid
> > > > interoperability
> > > > problems... then it would seem = reasonable that the carrier
> > > > would go back and
> > > > install new images or force the = vendor to fix the embedded
> > > > base..  but they
> > > > won't do either.. thus leaving = the problem to stumble
> > over some day...
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, = Philip Christian wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >I suppose that we could = define different sub-TLVs, a
> > > > sub-TLV if the
> > > > > >identifier is an IPv4 = address, a different sub-TLV if it
> > > > is a MAC address, etc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Then folks could use = whichever mechanism they prefer, as
> > > > long as it is a
> > > > > >globally unique = identifier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Or is that too = complex?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes! That's how NSAP = addresses got to be so awful :-)
> > > > >
> > > > = >          Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >Philip
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original = Message-----
> > > > > > > From: mike = shand
> > > > [<mailto:mshand@cisco.com >mailto:mshand@cisco.com ]
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, = June 10, 2002 12:24 PM
> > > > > > > To: Christian, = Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> > > > > > > Cc: = isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: = [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 11:29 = 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> > > > > > > >Looking at =
> > draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I = notice
> > > > > > > that there = is
> > > > > > > >not really = any mechanism for private or proprietary
> > > > use of a TLV.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Thus various = companies (including my own) have just pcked
> > > > > > > one and used = it
> > > > > > > >for their own = purpose.  Eventually this will create an
> > > > > > > interop = problem,
> > > > > > > >but what else = is a company to do?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Is there a = way that we could define that a certain TLV
> > > > number is for
> > > > > > > >private / = proprietary / experimental purposes?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >This would = then stop people just picking one.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I am thinking = that there would have to be some sort of
> > > > > > > entity = identifier
> > > > > > > >in there so = that when you see this TLV you know
> whether it
> > > > > > > is yours or = not.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Maybe we = could define that the first four bytes are an IP
> > > > > > > address = for
> > > > > > > = >example.  Any entity large enough to want to use a
> > > > > > > proprietary TLV = would
> > > > > > > >have a public = IP address to put in there, I would have
> > > > > > > thought. After = the
> > > > > > > >first for = bytes then the rest would be free.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Or maybe = there is a better way to identify a particular
> > > > > > > company / = entity
> > > > > > > >(like a MAC = address)?  Maybe ISO 8348?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >What do = people think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Philip
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This has been = suggested before, but never came to
> > anything. I
> > > > > > > think if = it
> > > > > > > WERE to be done = then using something link the MAC
> OUI would
> > > > > > > probably = work.
> > > > > > > What do you mean = by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I
> > > > hope not :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > = >          Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > = _______________________________________________
> > > > > Isis-wg mailing list  = -  Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg=
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C210A1.3AE6317E-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 08:34:27 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09713 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63C82t48346; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 05:08:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com [47.164.128.120]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5BAgot65640 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 03:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com [47.137.129.92]) by zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5BB1Bg18624; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:01:11 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5BB19Q02914; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:01:09 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:01:12 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB709@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Tony Przygienda'" Cc: "'Mike Truskowski'" , mshand@cisco.com, isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C21137.4C4F2E2A" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:01:12 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21137.4C4F2E2A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" So I am just writing something at the moment based on OUIs. Two questions. 1. What TLV number shall be assigned as the proprietary TLV? 2. Does the "locally assigned" bit have any significance in an OUI as it does in a MAC address? IEEE assigned OUIs are no problem for vendors, but I am thinking that there is no harm in allowing an individual to use an OUI with "locally assigned" bit set (or something similar) if they do not have an IEEE assigned OUI. One scenario is maybe a college student doing a university project for example. An absolute requirement for an IEEE assigned OUI would be a big deal for them, whilst maybe the loss of an absolute guarantee of uniqueness would not cause them a serious problem. In any case they can put their own "key" somewhere in the TLV to statistically reduce the problem to next to nothing, for example. The draft could clearly state that this SHOULD NOT be used for commercial products intended for deployment in the Internet, if that helps. Put another way, it might just stop a student / lab guy from just picked your OUI at random and trampling on it, just because he thinks that it will never get out of the lab... Thoughts? Philip > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch] > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > Yes, the proposals have been made before and nohting has been written > down. I am > for using the official OUI, this would be aligned with Frame > Relay, ATM > and so on. > The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address space is a > volatile thing > compared to > OUIs. I assume any vendor building sophisticated networking gear with > ISIS on it > will at a certain point have an OUI, I see little value in having a > /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ... > > So, this time any takers to write it down ? > > thanks > > -- tony > > > Philip Christian wrote: > > > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 address. > > Then no-one would have to assign them. The vendor just uses > a global > > IPv4 address that he has. > > > > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP address for this purpose. > > > > That would work. > > > > Philip > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com ] > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 PM > > > To: mshand@cisco.com > > > Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; > isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > > > > Why not just do the following? > > > > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > | Type | Length | Value | > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > | TLV # | Length | vendor code | "value" | > > > +-------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 octets? > > > > > > I guess one could do this on their own... couldn't they? > > > > > > The major problem I see here is what Philip said he > wanted to fix... > > > > > > If vendors are doing this already and this is trying to avoid > > > interoperability > > > problems... then it would seem reasonable that the carrier > > > would go back and > > > install new images or force the vendor to fix the embedded > > > base.. but they > > > won't do either.. thus leaving the problem to stumble > over some day... > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > > > > >I suppose that we could define different sub-TLVs, a > > > sub-TLV if the > > > > >identifier is an IPv4 address, a different sub-TLV if it > > > is a MAC address, etc > > > > > > > > > >Then folks could use whichever mechanism they prefer, as > > > long as it is a > > > > >globally unique identifier. > > > > > > > > > >Or is that too complex? > > > > > > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses got to be so awful :-) > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Philip > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: mike shand > > > [mailto:mshand@cisco.com ] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:24 PM > > > > > > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > > > > > > Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > > > > >Looking at > draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I notice > > > > > > that there is > > > > > > >not really any mechanism for private or proprietary > > > use of a TLV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thus various companies (including my own) have just pcked > > > > > > one and used it > > > > > > >for their own purpose. Eventually this will create an > > > > > > interop problem, > > > > > > >but what else is a company to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Is there a way that we could define that a certain TLV > > > number is for > > > > > > >private / proprietary / experimental purposes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This would then stop people just picking one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am thinking that there would have to be some sort of > > > > > > entity identifier > > > > > > >in there so that when you see this TLV you know whether it > > > > > > is yours or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Maybe we could define that the first four bytes are an IP > > > > > > address for > > > > > > >example. Any entity large enough to want to use a > > > > > > proprietary TLV would > > > > > > >have a public IP address to put in there, I would have > > > > > > thought. After the > > > > > > >first for bytes then the rest would be free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Or maybe there is a better way to identify a particular > > > > > > company / entity > > > > > > >(like a MAC address)? Maybe ISO 8348? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What do people think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Philip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This has been suggested before, but never came to > anything. I > > > > > > think if it > > > > > > WERE to be done then using something link the MAC OUI would > > > > > > probably work. > > > > > > What do you mean by ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I > > > hope not :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21137.4C4F2E2A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

So I am just writing something at the moment based on = OUIs.

Two questions.

1. What TLV number shall be assigned as the = proprietary TLV?

2. Does the "locally assigned" bit have any = significance in an OUI as it does in a MAC address?

IEEE assigned OUIs are no problem for vendors, but I = am thinking that there is no harm in allowing an individual to use an = OUI with "locally assigned" bit set (or something similar) if = they do not have an IEEE assigned OUI.

One scenario is maybe a college student doing a = university project for example.  An absolute requirement for an = IEEE assigned OUI would be a big deal for them, whilst maybe the loss = of an absolute guarantee of uniqueness would not cause them a serious = problem.  In any case they can put their own "key" = somewhere in the TLV to statistically reduce the problem to next to = nothing, for example.

The draft could clearly state that this SHOULD NOT be = used for commercial products intended for deployment in the Internet, = if that helps.

Put another way, it might just stop a student / lab = guy from just picked your OUI at random and trampling on it, just = because he thinks that it will never get out of the lab...

Thoughts?

Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch]
> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:44 PM
> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> Cc: 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com; = isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private = TLV numbers?
>
>
> Yes, the proposals have been made before and = nohting has been written
> down. I am
> for using the official OUI, this would be = aligned with Frame
> Relay, ATM
> and so on.
> The /32 may fly but unfortunately IP address = space is a
> volatile thing
> compared to
> OUIs. I assume any vendor building = sophisticated networking gear with
> ISIS on it
> will at a certain point have an OUI, I see = little value in having a
> = /32-address-based-cottage-industry-of-ISIS-extensions ...
>
> So, this time any takers to write it down = ?
>
>     thanks
>
>     -- tony
>
>
> Philip Christian wrote:
>
> > A vendor code of 4 octets could be an IPv4 = address.
> > Then no-one would have to assign them. The = vendor just uses
> a global
> > IPv4 address that he has.
> >
> > Even the smallest vendor can buy a /32 IP = address for this purpose.
> >
> > That would work.
> >
> > Philip
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mike Truskowski [ mailto:truskows@cisco.com = ]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:42 = PM
> > > To: mshand@cisco.com
> > > Cc: Christian, Philip = [HAL02:GI50:EXCH];
> isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / = Private TLV numbers?
> > >
> > >
> > > Why not just do the following?
> > >
> > > = +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > | Type   |  = Length  |       = Value           &= nbsp;     |
> > > = +-------------------------------------------------+
> > > | TLV #  |  Length  = |  vendor code  |   "value"   = |
> > > = +-------------------------------------------------+
> > >
> > > Where the vendor code is a fixed 3-4 = octets?
> > >
> > > I guess one could do this on their = own... couldn't they?
> > >
> > > The major problem I see here is what = Philip said he
> wanted to fix...
> > >
> > > If vendors are doing this already and = this is trying to avoid
> > > interoperability
> > > problems... then it would seem = reasonable that the carrier
> > > would go back and
> > > install new images or force the = vendor to fix the embedded
> > > base..  but they
> > > won't do either.. thus leaving the = problem to stumble
> over some day...
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > > At 13:43 10/06/2002 +0100, = Philip Christian wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I suppose that we could = define different sub-TLVs, a
> > > sub-TLV if the
> > > > >identifier is an IPv4 = address, a different sub-TLV if it
> > > is a MAC address, etc
> > > > >
> > > > >Then folks could use = whichever mechanism they prefer, as
> > > long as it is a
> > > > >globally unique = identifier.
> > > > >
> > > > >Or is that too = complex?
> > > >
> > > > Yes! That's how NSAP addresses = got to be so awful :-)
> > > >
> > > = >          Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Philip
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original = Message-----
> > > > > > From: mike = shand
> > > [<mailto:mshand@cisco.com >mailto:mshand@cisco.com ]
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, = 2002 12:24 PM
> > > > > > To: Christian, Philip = [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> > > > > > Cc: = isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] = Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:29 10/06/2002 = +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> > > > > > >Looking at
> draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt I = notice
> > > > > > that there is
> > > > > > >not really any = mechanism for private or proprietary
> > > use of a TLV.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Thus various = companies (including my own) have just pcked
> > > > > > one and used it
> > > > > > >for their own = purpose.  Eventually this will create an
> > > > > > interop = problem,
> > > > > > >but what else is a = company to do?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is there a way = that we could define that a certain TLV
> > > number is for
> > > > > > >private / = proprietary / experimental purposes?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >This would then = stop people just picking one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I am thinking that = there would have to be some sort of
> > > > > > entity = identifier
> > > > > > >in there so that = when you see this TLV you know whether it
> > > > > > is yours or = not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Maybe we could = define that the first four bytes are an IP
> > > > > > address for
> > > > > > >example.  Any = entity large enough to want to use a
> > > > > > proprietary TLV = would
> > > > > > >have a public IP = address to put in there, I would have
> > > > > > thought. After = the
> > > > > > >first for bytes = then the rest would be free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Or maybe there is = a better way to identify a particular
> > > > > > company / = entity
> > > > > > >(like a MAC = address)?  Maybe ISO 8348?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >What do people = think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Philip
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This has been = suggested before, but never came to
> anything. I
> > > > > > think if it
> > > > > > WERE to be done then = using something link the MAC OUI would
> > > > > > probably work.
> > > > > > What do you mean by = ISO 8348? Do you mean ISO 6523? I
> > > hope not :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > = >          Mike
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > = _______________________________________________
> > > > Isis-wg mailing list  = -  Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
> > > > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg=
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C21137.4C4F2E2A-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 08:49:55 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA10412 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63CPAt49198; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 05:25:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.jnpr.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.28]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4SBSut59851 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 04:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by colo-rojo.jnpr.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g4SBjqn15621 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 04:45:52 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.176]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Tue, 28 May 2002 04:39:34 -0700 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13134; Tue, 28 May 2002 07:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200205281140.HAA13134@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: isis-wg@juniper.net From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 May 2002 11:39:34.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[56A4F1D0:01C2063C] Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:40:37 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : Restart signaling for ISIS Author(s) : M. Shand Filename : draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Pages : 10 Date : 24-May-02 The IS-IS routing protocol (RFC 1142 [2], ISO/IEC 10589 [3]) is a link state intra-domain routing protocol. Normally, when an IS-IS router is re-started, the neighboring routers detect the restart event and cycle their adjacencies with the restarting router through the down state. This is necessary in order to invoke the protocol mechanisms to ensure correct re-synchronization of the LSP database. However, the cycling of the adjacency state causes the neighbors to regenerate their LSPs describing the adjacency concerned. This in turn causes temporary disruption of routes passing through the restarting router. In certain scenarios such temporary disruption of the routes is highly undesirable. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020524143520.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020524143520.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 09:01:18 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10852 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63CbEt49583; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 05:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4SEQHt60647 for ; Tue, 28 May 2002 07:26:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Yongjun Im'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] IS-IS over IPv4 encapsulation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:43:00 -0400 > I would like to ask a couple of questions regarding IS-IS > [IP] protocol encapsulation. Yongjun - As I recall, the main push for this was to avoid the 'cell tax' over ATM. The reasoning went something like the following. If you have OSI and IP traffic on a link, you will need to encapsulate them to distinguish them If you encapsulate, you will need extra bytes If you have extra bytes, the IP Ack, which is very common, takes 2 ATM cells rather than 1, which leads to a decrease in the amount of traffic your link can take. Henk Smit came up with a proposal to use the fact that the first nibble of the packet can distinguish IP v4, IP v6, and OSI. (0x4, 0x6, and 0x8). Thus people could use the null-encapsulation and avoid the cell tax. After Henk's proposal, I didn't hear much about IP encapsulation for IS-IS. Others may have a different memory. I think GateD did ship a version with IP encapsulation, but you should contact them directly to see if this is something they plan to support going forward. - jeff parker - axiowave networks _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 09:09:31 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11294 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Ch8t49725; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 05:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4UI4Bt76611 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 11:04:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "IS-IS-WG (E-mail)" Cc: "'moulton@snmp.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] Limits on size of OctetString in SNMP Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 14:21:13 -0400 We moved the discussion of SNMP limits over to the mibs mailing list for a bit. The ruling from Steve Moulton (below) is that the issue is the convention between manager and agent about max buffer size, rather than intrinsic SNMP limits. Assuming this, I'll adopt the proposal that several folks have floated Provide a (required) table indexed by level and 8-byte LSP-ID of header info. All agents and managers should be able to cope with this. Provide an optional table, indexed the same way, with an octet string pegged to the size of originate LX Buffer Size. - jeff parker - axiowave networks On Thursday, May 30 2002, Jeff Parker wrote: > Bert W. has suggested I take the following question to the mibs group. > > ISIS defines an object called a Link State PDU (Protocol Data Unit) or LSP. > Since ISIS does not fragment, the LSP is designed to be as big at the MTU > will allow. The max size of LSPs is often 1492, though there are provisions > to make the MTU large in networks with all point-2-point links, so the LSP > can be 4K or larger. > > The LSP is a fundamental object in the IS-IS world, and many systems provide > a command that shows the user the LSP broken down into components. Thus > there is interest in providing an SNMP get for the LSP. (Set is not > appropriate) The question before us is > > Can we in good conscience define an SNMP object that is bigger than > 1472 bytes? > > If so, and applying the salami principle, does 4K break things? 9K? > > > - jeff parker > - axiowave networks > - All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand. Hello, Jeff, et al, There is no fundamental problem with having an object of the size you suggest in SNMP. There are some considerations to bear in mind. . If the object size plus packet overhead is larger than the MTU for the entire path from the agent to the manager, the packet will get fragmented at the IP level, and reassembled at the destination. This has no bearing directly on the SNMP implementation, but does increase the probability that the datagram cannot be reassembled due to one or more of the fragments getting lost. Datagrams that cannot be reassembled are silently dropped. The only action one might take here is to increase the number of times the manager retries sending the request before it decides that it cannot communicate with the agent. Note that NFS has been operated satisfactorily with datagram fragmentation for years, though generally on networks of fairly small radius. There is no problem peculiar to SNMP here. To quote rfc1270: Fragmentation and Reassembly does reduce the overall robustness of network management since, if any single fragment is lost along the way, the operation will fail. The worse the network operates, the higher the probability that a fragment will get lost or delayed. For monitoring and data gathering while the network is operating normally, Fragmentation and Reassembly is not a problem. When the network is operating poorly (and the network operators are typically trying to diagnose and repair a failure), small packets should to be used, preventing the packet from being fragmented. As this is a monitoring application, fragmentation is not an issue. . There is an implementation-specific issue. Agents and managers often have an implementation-defined limit on the size of the SNMP message they can deal with. While this is a simple issue of buffer sizes, it often requires a constant change and recompilation in the agent and manager code. If an object this size is specified in a MIB document, I recommend that a NOTE WELL be included regarding making sure the managers and agents utilizing the objects from this MIB document have an adequate snmpEngineMaxMessageSize [rfc2571]. Since there is some overhead in SNMP packets for the header and encoding, the maximum message size should be rather greater than the object size; I use two times the maximum object size as a rule of thumb. While rfc2571 describes snmpEngineMaxMessageSize as being the minimum of the maximum message sizes available to the agent (maximum size available to the transport layer, not the link layer), SNMP engines commonly use a smaller value to minimize allocated buffer size. . rfc2578 (the now-applicable SMIv2 document) suggests that some implementations restrict the maximum OCTET STRING size to 255. This, too, is often a recompilation issue. An implementation I am familiar with places the same size restriction on OCTET STRINGs as it does on messages. Display strings are still limited to 255 octets (rfc2579). Best Regards, Steve --- Steve Moulton SNMP Research, Inc voice: +1 865 573 1434 Sr Software Engineer 3001 Kimberlin Heights Rd. fax: +1 865 573 9197 moulton@snmp.com Knoxville, TN 37920-9716 USA http://www.snmp.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 09:24:55 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA12039 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63D0ht50014; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from fsnt.future.futsoft.com ([203.197.140.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4V5lmt79893 for ; Thu, 30 May 2002 22:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rameshrr@future.futsoft.com) Received: from kailash.future.futsoft.com (unverified) by fsnt.future.futsoft.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 11:38:06 +0530 Received: from rameshrr (rameshrr.future.futsoft.com [192.168.5.19]) by kailash.future.futsoft.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g4V5lcP19834 for ; Fri, 31 May 2002 11:17:40 +0530 Reply-To: From: "Rayapureddi Ramesh" To: Message-Id: <000401c20868$90a8d580$1305a8c0@future.futsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] no of routers in an area Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:31:09 +0530 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Is there any limitation on number of "Intermediate systems" can be configured in an ISIS area? If any one knows pl let me know. Thanks in advance, Ramesh *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 09:45:08 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA13337 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63DITt50549; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.jnpr.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.28]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g55GjHt22255 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zinin@psg.com) Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by colo-rojo.jnpr.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g55H35n22834 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:00:56 -0700 Received: from 12-234-73-224.client.attbi.com ([12.234.73.224]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17Fe9y-00068C-00; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 10:01:22 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <29295418.20020605100052@psg.com> To: "Philip Christian" CC: Amir Hermelin , isis-wg@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] last call on draft draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB6F5@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB6F5@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2002 17:00:56.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[8EF35960:01C20CB2] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:00:52 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philip, >> "extended" LSPs, though not perfect, make more sense--I couldn't come >> up with a better name, maybe native English speakers can :) > Is this is a similar concept to "Extended Local Circuit ID" in three way > handshaking? > it sounds as though it is, in which case consistency is a good thing. Not exactly similar--the extended circuit ID is really "extended", i.e., it's length is increased; in the LSP case, those are not enlarged LSPs, but additional ones announced as originated by a fake IS and thus extending the amount of information a physical IS can announce... Alex _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 10:02:21 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14524 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63DZat50866; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:35:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g55IUOt22733 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:30:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g55ImCX56416 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from zctfs063.europe.nortel.com ([47.164.128.120]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:46:34 -0700 Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com [47.137.129.92]) by zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g55Im8d10705; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:48:08 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g55Im6k24293; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:48:06 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:48:13 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB6F7@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Alex Zinin'" Cc: Amir Hermelin , isis-wg@juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] last call on draft draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C20CC1.894C7168" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2002 18:46:34.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[511642B0:01C20CC1] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:48:10 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20CC1.894C7168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To me an "extended" entity is the original entity plus an "extension". I am currently planning an "extension" to my house, and after I have done it then the entire house will be "extended". I guess that's why it is on my mind. So I think that these are "extension LSPs" or "expansion LSPs", or something... And I suppose that they have an "extension System Identifer" too... Next time I'll read the draft before commenting on it :) Hope that helps, Philip > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Zinin [mailto:zinin@psg.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 6:01 PM > To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] > Cc: Amir Hermelin; isis-wg@juniper.net > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] last call on draft > draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... > > > Philip, > > >> "extended" LSPs, though not perfect, make more sense--I > couldn't come > >> up with a better name, maybe native English speakers can :) > > > Is this is a similar concept to "Extended Local Circuit ID" > in three way > > handshaking? > > it sounds as though it is, in which case consistency is a > good thing. > > Not exactly similar--the extended circuit ID is really "extended", > i.e., it's length is increased; in the LSP case, those are not > enlarged LSPs, but additional ones announced as originated by > a fake IS and thus extending the amount of information a physical > IS can announce... > > Alex > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20CC1.894C7168 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] last call on draft = draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ...

To me an "extended" entity is the original = entity plus an "extension".

I am currently planning an "extension" to = my house, and after I have done it then the entire house will be = "extended".  I guess that's why it is on my = mind.

So I think that these are "extension LSPs" = or "expansion LSPs", or something...
And I suppose that they have an "extension = System Identifer" too...

Next time I'll read the draft before commenting on it = :)

Hope that helps, Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Zinin [mailto:zinin@psg.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 6:01 PM
> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> Cc: Amir Hermelin; isis-wg@juniper.net
> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] last call on = draft
> draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ...
>
>
> Philip,
>
> >> "extended" LSPs, though not = perfect, make more sense--I
> couldn't come
> >> up with a better name, maybe native = English speakers can :)
>
> > Is this is a similar concept to = "Extended Local Circuit ID"
> in three way
> > handshaking?
> > it sounds as though it is, in which case = consistency is a
> good thing.
>
> Not exactly similar--the extended circuit ID is = really "extended",
> i.e., it's length is increased; in the LSP = case, those are not
> enlarged LSPs, but additional ones announced as = originated by
> a fake IS and thus extending the amount of = information a physical
> IS can announce...
>
> Alex
>
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C20CC1.894C7168-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 10:18:56 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16315 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63DqXt50968; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.jnpr.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.28]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g55J0Ot22877 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zinin@psg.com) Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by colo-rojo.jnpr.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g55JICn26824 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:15:49 -0700 Received: from 12-234-73-224.client.attbi.com ([12.234.73.224]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17FgGR-000FNH-00; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:16:11 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <16517384913.20020605121541@psg.com> To: "Philip Christian" CC: Amir Hermelin , isis-wg@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] last call on draft draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB6F7@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB6F7@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2002 19:15:49.0855 (UTC) FILETIME=[6727D6F0:01C20CC5] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:15:41 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cool, why don't we use "extenSION LSPs" instead of "extenDED LSPs" then? Thanks! -- Alex Wednesday, June 05, 2002, 11:48:10 AM, you wrote: > To me an "extended" entity is the original entity plus an "extension". > I am currently planning an "extension" to my house, and after I have done it > then the entire house will be "extended". I guess that's why it is on my > mind. > So I think that these are "extension LSPs" or "expansion LSPs", or > something... > And I suppose that they have an "extension System Identifer" too... > Next time I'll read the draft before commenting on it :) > Hope that helps, Philip _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 10:40:58 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16931 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63E9at51097; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g55Jxot23148 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlu@chiaro.com) Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g55KHdX58775 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:17:39 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from rchss002.chiaro.com ([63.88.196.82]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:16:01 -0700 Received: (qmail 11722 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 20:12:38 -0000 Received: from rchss002.chiaro.com (HELO mail.chiaro.com) (63.88.196.82) by rchss002.chiaro.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 20:12:38 -0000 Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:11:20 -0500 Message-ID: <2383E22BDFF6D311BB8400B0D021A507CDD391@MAIL> From: May Lu To: "'isis-wg@juniper.net'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_IS_MIME_Boundary" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2002 20:16:01.0989 (UTC) FILETIME=[D027BF50:01C20CCD] Subject: [Isis-wg] Question for HMAC-MD5 authentication Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:11:10 -0500 --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In draft-ietf-isis-hmac-03.txt, the "Authentication Procedures" talked about how to calculate the authentication value. I need to conform the HMAC-MD5 validation. Here is what I though (authentication validation part only): When validate incoming LSP with HMAC-MD5 authentication TLV, the Checksum, Remaining Lifetime fields and the 16 bytes Authentication Value field in the authentication information tlv in the LSP are zeroed out first. The HMAC-MD5 algorithm takes a key and the modified LSP (length not modified) as input. The 16 byte result of the HMAC-MD5 algorithm is then compared with the original incoming authentication value. If all 16 bytes match, the authentication passed. Is this the right procedure? Thanks for your help. Xiaomei --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------- (on Chiaro SMTP Relay) This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are the property of Chiaro Networks, Ltd., and may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s), or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. --------------------------------------------------------- --=_IS_MIME_Boundary-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 11:04:10 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17497 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63EL7t51190; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63E7Tt51070 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmartin@gnilink.net) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g63ERVdG059941 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from entmail.gnilink.net ([199.45.47.10]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:25:27 -0700 Received: by entmail.gnilink.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <31H3F4JH>; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:27:28 -0400 Message-ID: <94B9091E1149D411A45C00508BACEB35015F3030@entmail.gnilink.com> From: "Martin, Christian" To: "'Alex Zinin'" , Philip Christian Cc: Amir Hermelin , isis-wg@juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] last call on draft draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2002 14:25:27.0139 (UTC) FILETIME=[79F95B30:01C2229D] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:27:27 -0400 To use Philip's analogy, houses with extensions are not extension houses they are extended houses. The LSP is extended, not extensioned. Extension is a noun, extended is an adjective. ex*tend*ed Pronunciation Key (k-stndd) adj. Enlarged or broad in meaning, scope, or influence: an extended sense of the word honest. extension \Ex*ten"sion\, n. [L. extensio: cf. F. extension. See Extend, v. t.] 1. The act of extending or the state of being extended; a stretching out; enlargement in breadth or continuation of length; increase; augmentation; expansion. IMO, of course... chris >-----Original Message----- >From: Alex Zinin [mailto:zinin@psg.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:16 PM >To: Philip Christian >Cc: Amir Hermelin; isis-wg@juniper.net >Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] last call on draft >draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... > > > >Cool, why don't we use "extenSION LSPs" instead of "extenDED >LSPs" then? > >Thanks! > >-- >Alex > >Wednesday, June 05, 2002, 11:48:10 AM, you wrote: >> To me an "extended" entity is the original entity plus an >"extension". > >> I am currently planning an "extension" to my house, and after I have >> done it then the entire house will be "extended". I guess >that's why >> it is on my mind. > >> So I think that these are "extension LSPs" or "expansion LSPs", or >> something... And I suppose that they have an "extension System >> Identifer" too... > >> Next time I'll read the draft before commenting on it :) > >> Hope that helps, Philip > > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis>-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 11:28:23 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18342 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63F41t51476; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Ep3t51399 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from amir@cwnt.com) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g63FBkcW061113 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.cwnt.com ([192.116.246.129]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:09:42 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] last call on draft draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] last call on draft draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... Thread-Index: AcIinLfg6/UefY9NRAmuCETsnWzysgABsWTA From: "Amir Hermelin" To: "Alex Zinin" , "Philip Christian" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2002 15:09:42.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[A86748F0:01C222A3] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by external.juniper.net id g63Ep3t51400 Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:09:12 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I'm not mistaken, this thread is a month old and was already resolved - seems to have been mistakenly resent to the group. -- Amir Hermelin < mailto:amir@cwnt.com> Charlotte's Web Networks Inc. < http://www.cwnt.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: Alex Zinin [mailto:zinin@psg.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:16 PM >To: Philip Christian >Cc: Amir Hermelin; isis-wg@juniper.net >Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] last call on draft >draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 ... > > > >Cool, why don't we use "extenSION LSPs" instead of "extenDED LSPs" >then? > >Thanks! > >-- >Alex > >Wednesday, June 05, 2002, 11:48:10 AM, you wrote: >> To me an "extended" entity is the original entity plus an >"extension". > >> I am currently planning an "extension" to my house, and >after I have done it >> then the entire house will be "extended". I guess that's >why it is on my >> mind. > >> So I think that these are "extension LSPs" or "expansion LSPs", or >> something... >> And I suppose that they have an "extension System Identifer" too... > >> Next time I'll read the draft before commenting on it :) > >> Hope that helps, Philip > > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 14:16:12 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA25516 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Hpdt52618; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:51:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.jnpr.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g56Dxbt28618 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlu@chiaro.com) Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by colo-rojo.jnpr.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g56EHVn47691 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:17:31 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from rchss002.chiaro.com ([63.88.196.82]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:15:53 -0700 Received: (qmail 17907 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2002 14:12:45 -0000 Received: from rchss002.chiaro.com (HELO mail.chiaro.com) (63.88.196.82) by rchss002.chiaro.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2002 14:12:45 -0000 Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:16:28 -0500 Message-ID: <2383E22BDFF6D311BB8400B0D021A507CDD392@MAIL> From: May Lu To: "'tli@procket.com'" , "'isis-wg@juniper.net'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_IS_MIME_Boundary" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2002 14:15:53.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[AABA1E10:01C20D64] Subject: [Isis-wg] FW: Question for HMAC-MD5 authentication Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:16:18 -0500 --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Tony, I had a question about the HMAC-MD5. I sent a mail to the isis working group yesterday but I did not see this mail be distributed. So I am try again. Thanks in advance for your help. Xiaomei > -----Original Message----- > From: May Lu > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:11 PM > To: 'isis-wg@juniper.net' > Subject: Question for HMAC-MD5 authentication > > In draft-ietf-isis-hmac-03.txt, the "Authentication Procedures" talked > about how to calculate the authentication value. I need to conform the > HMAC-MD5 validation. Here is what I though (authentication validation part > only): > > When validate incoming LSP with HMAC-MD5 authentication TLV, the Checksum, > Remaining Lifetime fields and the 16 bytes Authentication Value field in > the authentication information tlv in the LSP are zeroed out first. The > HMAC-MD5 algorithm takes a key and the modified LSP (length not modified) > as input. The 16 byte result of the HMAC-MD5 algorithm is then compared > with the original incoming authentication value. If all 16 bytes match, > the authentication passed. > > Is this the right procedure? > > Thanks for your help. > Xiaomei > > > --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------- (on Chiaro SMTP Relay) This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are the property of Chiaro Networks, Ltd., and may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s), or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. --------------------------------------------------------- --=_IS_MIME_Boundary-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 14:33:10 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26996 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63I8Zt52790; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g56Guut29445 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@procket.com) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g56HEoX81357 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:14:50 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from dmz1.procket.com ([65.174.124.36]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:13:12 -0700 Received: from miata.procket.com (zeus-d-1.procket.com [65.174.124.60]) by dmz1.procket.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFF123C3E; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha-tli.procket.com (IDENT:root@alpha-tli.procket.com [10.2.3.1]) by miata.procket.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g56HEovM000361; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by alpha-tli.procket.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) id g56HEnsj022850; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:14:49 -0700 From: Tony Li MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15615.39049.805272.955628@alpha-tli.procket.com> To: May Lu Cc: "'tli@procket.com'" , "'isis-wg@juniper.net'" In-Reply-To: <2383E22BDFF6D311BB8400B0D021A507CDD392@MAIL> References: <2383E22BDFF6D311BB8400B0D021A507CDD392@MAIL> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.5.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2002 17:13:12.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[70561D00:01C20D7D] Subject: [Isis-wg] FW: Question for HMAC-MD5 authentication Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:14:49 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi May, | I had a question about the HMAC-MD5. I sent a mail to the isis working group | yesterday but I did not see this mail be distributed. So I am try again. The mailing list will not redistribute your mail unless it recognizes you as a member of the mailing list. | > When validate incoming LSP with HMAC-MD5 authentication TLV, the Checksum, | > Remaining Lifetime fields and the 16 bytes Authentication Value field in | > the authentication information tlv in the LSP are zeroed out first. The | > HMAC-MD5 algorithm takes a key and the modified LSP (length not modified) | > as input. The 16 byte result of the HMAC-MD5 algorithm is then compared | > with the original incoming authentication value. If all 16 bytes match, | > the authentication passed. | > | > Is this the right procedure? Yup, sounds perfect. Tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 14:34:35 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27157 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63GpPt52193; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63GbVt52114 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) Received: from cirrus.juniper.net (cirrus.juniper.net [172.17.20.57]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g63GwGm60070; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:58:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) Received: (from dkatz@localhost) by cirrus.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g63GwFv35635; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:58:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@cirrus.juniper.net) Message-Id: <200207031658.g63GwFv35635@cirrus.juniper.net> From: Dave Katz To: rameshrr@future.futsoft.com CC: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-reply-to: <000401c20868$90a8d580$1305a8c0@future.futsoft.com> (rameshrr@future.futsoft.com) Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] no of routers in an area References: <000401c20868$90a8d580$1305a8c0@future.futsoft.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:58:15 -0700 (PDT) One less than the point at which the weakest implementation collapses. --Dave Is there any limitation on number of "Intermediate systems" can be configured in an ISIS area? _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 15:08:18 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00138 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Ihdt53609; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com [47.164.128.120]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5BEKbt66645 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:20:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com [47.137.129.92]) by zctfs063.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5BEccA10807; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:38:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g5BEcaQ19416; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:38:36 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:38:40 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB70D@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Tony Przygienda'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Cc: "'Mike Truskowski'" , mshand@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C21155.37033688" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:38:38 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21155.37033688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" First shot at a draft. Comments? Philip Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks June 2002 TLV for Proprietary Use draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist.txt Status of this Memo This document is an Internet Draft. Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet Drafts. Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a "working draft" or "work in progress". To learn the current status of any Internet-Draft, please check the 1id-abstracts.txt listing contained in the Internet-Drafts Shadow Directories on ds.internic.net, nic.nordu.net, ftp.isi.edu, or munnari.oz.au. A revised version of this draft document will be submitted to the RFC editor as a Proposed Standard for the Internet Community. Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested. This document will expire before December 2002. Distribution of this draft is unlimited. 1. Abstract This document defines a TLV that may be used by any individual, company or other organisation for vendor specific or experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines the format of the TLV. 2. Conventions used in this document The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. 3. Introduction IS-IS as defined in [1] has always been an extensible routing protocol. Extensions to IS-IS are encoded as a TLV. Critically [1] has always defined that a router that does not understand a TLV that it receives in an LSP SHALL process the parts of the LSP that it TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 does understand, and SHALL flood the entire LSP, including all TLVs whether they are understand or not, on to other routers in the network. Thus information that is encoded into a TLV and placed in an LSP by a router will be propagated to every other router in an IS-IS level- 1 area or level-2 subdomain. The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known TLV type numbers at this time. Also no TLV type number was ever defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at a later time for a different function, thus creating an interoperability problem. Also this accelerates the burning of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that insures that implementations using this TLV type number can exist in the same network without creating interoperability problems. By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. 4. TLV type number for proprietary use The type field for this TLV SHALL be XXX. TLVs that use XXX for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value of the TLV, except for the concession stated below. The rest of the value field may then be used freely. On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that include an OUI from a different organization, but MUST flood the LSP onwards as per [1]. Organizations or individuals that do not have access to an IEEE assigned OUI MAY use a locally assigned three byte value instead, however in this case the second least significant bit of the first TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 byte MUST be set to one to indicate that it is non-IEEE assigned, and implementations that use such a non-IEEE assigned OUI SHOULD NOT be installed in the Internet. A non-IEEE assigned OUI does not guarantee uniqueness and may cause interoperability problems with implementations from other organizations. After the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV subsequent bytes may be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is conformant with [1]. Many organizations will have access to only one or a few OUIs. Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if subTLVs are to be used then the very first implementation to exist will need to recognize the subTLV structure, and ignore subTLVs that it does not understand whilst searching for subTLVs that it does understand. 5. Security Considerations The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, and so if security is required then an implementation will need to encrypt the information using a suitable method. 6. References [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 7. Acknowledgments The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly received. 8. Author's Addresses Philip Christian Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA UK Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21155.37033688 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

First shot at a draft.  Comments?

Philip

Internet Engineering Task = Force           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;    P. Christian
INTERNET = DRAFT           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;      Nortel Networks
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   June 2002
 
 
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   TLV for Proprietary Use
          &nb= sp;          = draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist.txt
 
Status of this Memo
 
   This document is an Internet = Draft.  Internet Drafts are working
   documents of the Internet Engineering = Task Force (IETF), its Areas,
   and its Working Groups.  Note that = other groups may also distribute
   working documents as Internet Drafts. =
   
   Internet Drafts are draft documents = valid for a maximum of six
   months.  Internet Drafts may be = updated, replaced, or obsoleted by
   other documents at any time.  It = is not appropriate to use Internet
   Drafts as reference material or to cite = them other than as a
   "working draft" or "work = in progress".
   
   To learn the current status of any = Internet-Draft, please check the
   1id-abstracts.txt listing contained in = the Internet-Drafts Shadow
   Directories on ds.internic.net, = nic.nordu.net, ftp.isi.edu, or
   munnari.oz.au.
   
   A revised version of this draft = document will be submitted to the
   RFC editor as a Proposed Standard for = the Internet Community. 
   Discussion and suggestions for = improvement are requested.  This
   document will expire before December = 2002. Distribution of this
   draft is unlimited.
   
   
1. Abstract
   
   This document defines a TLV that may be = used by any individual,
   company or other organisation for = vendor specific or experimental
   extensions to the IS-IS routing = protocol, and defines the format of
   the TLV.
   
   
2. Conventions used in this document
   
   The key words "MUST", = "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", = "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD = NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and = "OPTIONAL" in
   this document are to be interpreted as = described in RFC 2119.
   
   
3. Introduction
   
   IS-IS as defined in [1] has always been = an extensible routing
   protocol.  Extensions to IS-IS are = encoded as a TLV.  Critically [1]
   has always defined that a router that = does not understand a TLV that
   it receives in an LSP SHALL process the = parts of the LSP that it
 
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;   June 2002
 
 
   does understand, and SHALL flood the = entire LSP, including all TLVs
   whether they are understand or not, on = to other routers in the
   network.
   
   Thus information that is encoded into a = TLV and placed in an LSP by
   a router will be propagated to every = other router in an IS-IS level-
   1 area or level-2 subdomain.
   
   The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is = identified by the first byte
   of the TLV.  Thus there are only = 256 possible basic types of TLV. 
   Certain types of TLV have been defined = to include sub-TLVs so that a
   single TLV type can be used for = multiple functions.
   
   No single authority assigns TLV type = numbers, [2] lists all known
   TLV type numbers at this time.  = Also no TLV type number was ever
   defined for private, proprietary or = experimental use.
   
   The extensible nature of IS-IS has made = the use of TLVs in LSPs for
   proprietary purposes so useful that in = the absence of a central
   authority for assigning TLV type = numbers vendors have occasionally
   simply chosen a number and hoped for = the best.  The risk is that
   such a TLV type number may then be = chosen by another organization at
   a later time for a different function, = thus creating an
   interoperability problem. Also this = accelerates the burning of the
   256 possible TLV type numbers.
   
   This document specifies a TLV type = number that may be used for
   proprietary, private or experimental = purposes, and a mechanism that
   insures that implementations using this = TLV type number can exist in
   the same network without creating = interoperability problems.
   
   By using this new TLV, companies, = individuals or institutions may
   use extensions to IS-IS without fear of = interoperability problems
   with other organizations in the future, = and the available pool of
   TLV type numbers will no longer be = diminished by proprietary use.
   
 
4. TLV type number for proprietary use
   
   The type field for this TLV SHALL be = XXX.
   
   TLVs that use XXX for the type field = MUST include a valid IEEE
   assigned OUI as the first three bytes = of the value of the TLV,
   except for the concession stated = below.  The rest of the value field
   may then be used freely.
   
   On receipt of an LSP a router MUST = ignore TLVs of type XXX that
   include an OUI from a different = organization, but MUST flood the LSP
   onwards as per [1].
   
   Organizations or individuals that do = not have access to an IEEE
   assigned OUI MAY use a locally assigned = three byte value instead,
   however in this case the second least = significant bit of the first
 
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;   June 2002
 
 
   byte MUST be set to one to indicate = that it is non-IEEE assigned,
   and implementations that use such a = non-IEEE assigned OUI SHOULD NOT
   be installed in the Internet.  A = non-IEEE assigned OUI does not
   guarantee uniqueness and may cause = interoperability problems with
   implementations from other = organizations.
   
   After the first three bytes of the = value field of the TLV subsequent
   bytes may be used freely for any = purpose provided that the resultant
   TLV is conformant with [1].
   
   Many organizations will have access to = only one or a few OUIs. 
   Implementers are free to format the = value field after their OUI into
   sub-TLVs so that it may be used for = multiple purposes, and would be
   well advised to do this from the = outset.  Note that if subTLVs are
   to be used then the very first = implementation to exist will need to
   recognize the subTLV structure, and = ignore subTLVs that it does not
   understand whilst searching for subTLVs = that it does understand.
   
   
5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new = security issues for IS-IS. 
   Information placed in an IS-IS TLV = cannot be considered secure, and
   so if security is required then an = implementation will need to
   encrypt the information using a = suitable method.
   
   
6. References
   
   [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to = Intermediate system routeing
   information exchange protocol for use = in conjunction with the
   Protocol for providing the = Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO
   8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. =
   
   [2] = draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV
   Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, = November 2001
   
7. Acknowledgments
   
   The author takes no credit for this = work as the concept was
   discussed in the IS-IS Working Group = before the author even became
   an active participant.  = Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly
   received.
   
8. Author's Addresses
   
   Philip Christian
   Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories =
   London Road, Harlow,
   Essex, CM17 9NA UK
   
   Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com =

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C21155.37033688-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 16:41:37 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05897 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63KGht54259; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63K1Qt54173 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:01:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prz@net4u.ch) Received: from net4u.ch ([63.200.51.71]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GYO001GVWKZOD@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? To: Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Message-id: <3D235C11.1070803@net4u.ch> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB709@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:18:25 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Philip Christian wrote: > So I am just writing something at the moment based on OUIs. > > Two questions. > > 1. What TLV number shall be assigned as the proprietary TLV? > you like 250? > 2. Does the "locally assigned" bit have any significance in an OUI as > it does in a MAC address? > > IEEE assigned OUIs are no problem for vendors, but I am thinking that > there is no harm in allowing an individual to use an OUI with "locally > assigned" bit set (or something similar) if they do not have an IEEE > assigned OUI. > > One scenario is maybe a college student doing a university project for > example. An absolute requirement for an IEEE assigned OUI would be a > big deal for them, whilst maybe the loss of an absolute guarantee of > uniqueness would not cause them a serious problem. In any case they > can put their own "key" somewhere in the TLV to statistically reduce > the problem to next to nothing, for example. > > The draft could clearly state that this SHOULD NOT be used for > commercial products intended for deployment in the Internet, if that > helps. > > Put another way, it might just stop a student / lab guy from just > picked your OUI at random and trampling on it, just because he thinks > that it will never get out of the lab... > I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. small comment on draft, pls find a reference to OUI description and include it. Many people don't know the concept thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 17:23:58 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07155 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Kxot54508; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63KZmt54376 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Tony Przygienda'" , Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:56:14 -0400 > I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses have a > 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it > was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. I think you are both thinking about the "global/local" bit, which is the second bit on the wire, right after the unicast/mcast bit, which is the LSBit of the first byte. - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 17:27:15 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07270 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63L32t54552; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63KaVt54384 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: Jeff Parker , "'Tony Przygienda'" , "'Philip Christian'" , "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:57:08 -0400 > > I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses have a > > 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it > > was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. > > I think you are both thinking about the "global/local" bit, > which is the second bit on the wire, right after the > unicast/mcast bit, which is the LSBit of the first byte. ...and therefore part of the OUI-space. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 17:55:22 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08633 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63LV8t54783; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63LFct54672 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g63LahdS022042; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABV50466; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020703171759.03c78db0@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Tony Przygienda From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: <3D235C11.1070803@net4u.ch> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB709@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:35:18 -0400 There are only 4 million OUIs, not 16. Two bits are reserved for "globally vs. locally assigned" and "multicast vs. unicast". Practically speaking, if you own an OUI, you own two values, one with the multicast bit clear and one with it set. HOWEVER, I wouldn't put it past IEEE to sell a special kind of OUIs that are NOT valid for use in making MAC addresses (because the local or mcast bit is set) so it is probably risky to use an OUI with this bit set for any other purpose. Use of an OUI with the locally-administered bit set is probably fine for use in a lab. However, you might want to ask IEEE before committing this to an RFC. When defining OUI you might want to include this URL: "http://standards.ieee.org". It's easy to find OUI from there, and I hope that this URL is stable enough to document. Jeff At 04:18 PM 7/3/2002, Tony Przygienda wrote: >Philip Christian wrote: > >>So I am just writing something at the moment based on OUIs. >> >>Two questions. >> >>1. What TLV number shall be assigned as the proprietary TLV? >you like 250? > >>2. Does the "locally assigned" bit have any significance in an OUI as it does in a MAC address? >> >>IEEE assigned OUIs are no problem for vendors, but I am thinking that there is no harm in allowing an individual to use an OUI with "locally assigned" bit set (or something similar) if they do not have an IEEE assigned OUI. >> >>One scenario is maybe a college student doing a university project for example. An absolute requirement for an IEEE assigned OUI would be a big deal for them, whilst maybe the loss of an absolute guarantee of uniqueness would not cause them a serious problem. In any case they can put their own "key" somewhere in the TLV to statistically reduce the problem to next to nothing, for example. >> >>The draft could clearly state that this SHOULD NOT be used for commercial products intended for deployment in the Internet, if that helps. >> >>Put another way, it might just stop a student / lab guy from just picked your OUI at random and trampling on it, just because he thinks that it will never get out of the lab... >I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it >was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. > >small comment on draft, pls find a reference to OUI description and include it. Many people don't know the >concept > > thanks > > -- tony > > > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 18:00:28 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08919 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Ld1t54843; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63LO8t54721 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g63LjLMP022444; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABV50658; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020703174406.03c63988@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Philip Christian From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: <3D235C11.1070803@net4u.ch> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB709@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:44:46 -0400 Have you updated the text since the round of comments after your post on 6/12? Jeff At 04:18 PM 7/3/2002, Tony Przygienda wrote: >I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it >was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. > >small comment on draft, pls find a reference to OUI description and include it. Many people don't know the >concept > > thanks > > -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 18:26:04 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10300 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63M47t55068; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from prattle.redback.com (prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Lnet54928 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:49:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naiming@redback.com) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1F01531C3; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) To: "Philip Christian" Cc: "'Tony Przygienda'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Mike Truskowski'" , mshand@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? In-reply-to: Mail from "Philip Christian" dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:38:38 BST <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB70D@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020703221026.AC1F01531C3@prattle.redback.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:10:26 -0700 Philip, is there a reason this TLV meant only for LSP packet, not for any isis pdus? i would think this optional TLV can be useful for other type of isis packets. thanks. ] ] First shot at a draft. Comments? ] ] Philip - Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 18:26:18 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10322 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63M4Mt55084; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63LoSt54942 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Jeff Learman'" , Tony Przygienda Cc: Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:10:52 -0400 Thanks to Jeff L's link, I wandered over an grabbed the file. Most of the entries start with 00. However, there are addresses with the second bit set. Here are a few... - jeff parker 02-07-01 (hex) RACAL-DATACOM 020701 (base 16) RACAL-DATACOM LAN INTERNETWORKING DIVISION 155 SWANSON ROAD BOXBOROUGH MA 01719 02-1C-7C (hex) PERQ SYSTEMS CORPORATION 021C7C (base 16) PERQ SYSTEMS CORPORATION 2600 LIBERTY AVENUE P.O. BOX 2600 PITTSBURGH PA 15230 02-60-86 (hex) LOGIC REPLACEMENT TECH. LTD. 026086 (base 16) LOGIC REPLACEMENT TECH. LTD. 14 ARKWRIGHT ROAD READING BERKS RG2OLS UNITED KINGDOM 02-60-8C (hex) 3COM CORPORATION 02608C (base 16) 3COM CORPORATION 2081 N. SHORLINE BLVD. MOUNTAIN VIEW CA 94043 - jeff parker - axiowave networks - My most important job is to defend the homeland, to protect innocent Americans from the deaths of the killers. - G. W. Bush > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:35 PM > To: Tony Przygienda > Cc: Philip Christian; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > > > There are only 4 million OUIs, not 16. Two bits are reserved > for "globally vs. locally assigned" and "multicast vs. unicast". > > Practically speaking, if you own an OUI, you own two values, one > with the multicast bit clear and one with it set. HOWEVER, I wouldn't > put it past IEEE to sell a special kind of OUIs that are NOT valid for > use in making MAC addresses (because the local or mcast bit > is set) so it is probably risky to use an OUI with this bit set for > any other purpose. > > Use of an OUI with the locally-administered bit set is probably > fine for use in a lab. However, you might want to ask IEEE before > committing this to an RFC. > > When defining OUI you might want to include this URL: > "http://standards.ieee.org". It's easy to find OUI from there, and > I hope that this URL is stable enough to document. > > Jeff > > At 04:18 PM 7/3/2002, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > > >Philip Christian wrote: > > > >>So I am just writing something at the moment based on OUIs. > >> > >>Two questions. > >> > >>1. What TLV number shall be assigned as the proprietary TLV? > >you like 250? > > > >>2. Does the "locally assigned" bit have any significance in > an OUI as it does in a MAC address? > >> > >>IEEE assigned OUIs are no problem for vendors, but I am > thinking that there is no harm in allowing an individual to > use an OUI with "locally assigned" bit set (or something > similar) if they do not have an IEEE assigned OUI. > >> > >>One scenario is maybe a college student doing a university > project for example. An absolute requirement for an IEEE > assigned OUI would be a big deal for them, whilst maybe the > loss of an absolute guarantee of uniqueness would not cause > them a serious problem. In any case they can put their own > "key" somewhere in the TLV to statistically reduce the > problem to next to nothing, for example. > >> > >>The draft could clearly state that this SHOULD NOT be used > for commercial products intended for deployment in the > Internet, if that helps. > >> > >>Put another way, it might just stop a student / lab guy > from just picked your OUI at random and trampling on it, just > because he thinks that it will never get out of the lab... > >I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses > have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it > >was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. > > > >small comment on draft, pls find a reference to OUI > description and include it. Many people don't know the > >concept > > > > thanks > > > > -- tony > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 18:39:35 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10784 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63MFht55196; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63M0Dt55045 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prz@net4u.ch) Received: from net4u.ch ([63.200.50.0]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GYP00CTN22YBQ@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Przygienda Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? To: Jeff Parker Cc: "'Jeff Learman'" , Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Message-id: <3D2377BD.2070909@net4u.ch> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 References: Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:16:29 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jeff Parker wrote: >- axiowave networks >- My most important job is to defend the homeland, to protect innocent >Americans from the deaths of the killers. >- G. W. Bush > no politics, no drunks, no dirty jokes, pls, this is too close to the line Jeff Anybody appealing to the first or any other amendement will be unsubscribed! ;-) thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 18:45:31 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11028 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63MO3t55279; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63MCUt55163 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g63MWxV10396; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:32:59 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1DZWR>; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:32:59 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB744@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Jeff Learman'" Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.94EF89AC" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:32:59 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.94EF89AC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I haven't yet, no. My boss (the wife) suddenly decided that I would be taking a week off work. I'm back now though and will have another go at it. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 10:45 PM To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Have you updated the text since the round of comments after your post on 6/12? Jeff At 04:18 PM 7/3/2002, Tony Przygienda wrote: >I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it >was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. > >small comment on draft, pls find a reference to OUI description and include it. Many people don't know the >concept > > thanks > > -- tony ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.94EF89AC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

I haven't yet, no.  My boss (the wife) suddenly = decided that I would be taking a week off work.
I'm back now though and will have another go at = it.

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com]=
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 10:45 PM
To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV = numbers?



Have you updated the text since the round of comments = after your
post on 6/12?

Jeff

At 04:18 PM 7/3/2002, Tony Przygienda wrote:
>I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, = MAC addresses have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether = it
>was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you = found.
>
>small comment on draft, pls find a reference to = OUI description and include it. Many people don't know the
>concept
>
>   thanks
>
>   -- tony

------_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.94EF89AC-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 19:02:59 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA11751 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Meot55431; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63ME6t55181 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g63MYXV10404; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:34:37 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1DZW4>; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:34:33 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB745@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Naiming Shen'" Cc: "'Tony Przygienda'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Mike Truskowski'" , mshand@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.BBFED020" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:34:33 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.BBFED020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" No reason in my mind. I can add it if no one objects. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Naiming Shen [mailto:naiming@redback.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:10 PM To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Cc: 'Tony Przygienda'; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; 'Mike Truskowski'; mshand@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Philip, is there a reason this TLV meant only for LSP packet, not for any isis pdus? i would think this optional TLV can be useful for other type of isis packets. thanks. ] ] First shot at a draft. Comments? ] ] Philip - Naiming ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.BBFED020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

No reason in my mind.
I can add it if no one objects.

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Naiming Shen [mailto:naiming@redback.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:10 PM
To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Cc: 'Tony Przygienda'; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; 'Mike Truskowski';
mshand@cisco.com
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?



Philip,
        is there a reason this TLV meant only for LSP packet, not
for any isis pdus? i would think this optional TLV can be useful
for other type of isis packets.

thanks.

 ]
 ] First shot at a draft.  Comments?
 ]
 ] Philip

- Naiming

------_=_NextPart_001_01C222E1.BBFED020-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 19:12:54 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12156 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Movt55517; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63MXOt55371 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g63MrwRq025689; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABV51748; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020703183112.01a719a8@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Jeff Parker From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: Tony Przygienda , Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:52:10 -0400 At 06:10 PM 7/3/2002, Jeff Parker wrote: >Thanks to Jeff L's link, I wandered over an grabbed the file. >Most of the entries start with 00. However, there are addresses >with the second bit set. Here are a few... Well I'll be ... Not to mention that some listed companies sure look like ones that might need to assign MAC addresses. IEEE's OUI request form doesn't ask you whether you'll use it for MAC addresses or for the other umpteen things OUIs are used for. I wonder if these are special assignments. Based on this info, I would suggest adding the following to the text. The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the first byte set in vendor implementations. This bit is ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion of MAC addresses to mean "locally administered", and is reserved for locally administered (experimental) values in this TLV, e.g., for academic purposes. Or something like that. Alternatively, if some saintly company is willing to donate an OUI, we could use that. For example, a company could donate that form of their OUI with the "multicast" bit set. (Note that none of the assignments has an odd first byte? I think this means that IEEE is willing to ignore the "local/global" meaning, but isn't silly enough to play the same game with "unicast/multicast"!) Jeff >- jeff parker > >02-07-01 (hex) RACAL-DATACOM >020701 (base 16) RACAL-DATACOM > LAN INTERNETWORKING DIVISION > 155 SWANSON ROAD > BOXBOROUGH MA 01719 > >02-1C-7C (hex) PERQ SYSTEMS CORPORATION >021C7C (base 16) PERQ SYSTEMS CORPORATION > 2600 LIBERTY AVENUE > P.O. BOX 2600 > PITTSBURGH PA 15230 > >02-60-86 (hex) LOGIC REPLACEMENT TECH. LTD. >026086 (base 16) LOGIC REPLACEMENT TECH. LTD. > 14 ARKWRIGHT ROAD > READING BERKS RG2OLS > UNITED KINGDOM > >02-60-8C (hex) 3COM CORPORATION >02608C (base 16) 3COM CORPORATION > 2081 N. SHORLINE BLVD. > MOUNTAIN VIEW CA 94043 > > >- jeff parker >- axiowave networks >- My most important job is to defend the homeland, to protect innocent >Americans from the deaths of the killers. >- G. W. Bush > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 5:35 PM >> To: Tony Przygienda >> Cc: Philip Christian; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> >> >> >> There are only 4 million OUIs, not 16. Two bits are reserved >> for "globally vs. locally assigned" and "multicast vs. unicast". >> >> Practically speaking, if you own an OUI, you own two values, one >> with the multicast bit clear and one with it set. HOWEVER, I wouldn't >> put it past IEEE to sell a special kind of OUIs that are NOT valid for >> use in making MAC addresses (because the local or mcast bit >> is set) so it is probably risky to use an OUI with this bit set for >> any other purpose. >> >> Use of an OUI with the locally-administered bit set is probably >> fine for use in a lab. However, you might want to ask IEEE before >> committing this to an RFC. >> >> When defining OUI you might want to include this URL: >> "http://standards.ieee.org". It's easy to find OUI from there, and >> I hope that this URL is stable enough to document. >> >> Jeff >> >> At 04:18 PM 7/3/2002, Tony Przygienda wrote: >> >> >> >Philip Christian wrote: >> > >> >>So I am just writing something at the moment based on OUIs. >> >> >> >>Two questions. >> >> >> >>1. What TLV number shall be assigned as the proprietary TLV? >> >you like 250? >> > >> >>2. Does the "locally assigned" bit have any significance in >> an OUI as it does in a MAC address? >> >> >> >>IEEE assigned OUIs are no problem for vendors, but I am >> thinking that there is no harm in allowing an individual to >> use an OUI with "locally assigned" bit set (or something >> similar) if they do not have an IEEE assigned OUI. >> >> >> >>One scenario is maybe a college student doing a university >> project for example. An absolute requirement for an IEEE >> assigned OUI would be a big deal for them, whilst maybe the >> loss of an absolute guarantee of uniqueness would not cause >> them a serious problem. In any case they can put their own >> "key" somewhere in the TLV to statistically reduce the >> problem to next to nothing, for example. >> >> >> >>The draft could clearly state that this SHOULD NOT be used >> for commercial products intended for deployment in the >> Internet, if that helps. >> >> >> >>Put another way, it might just stop a student / lab guy >> from just picked your OUI at random and trampling on it, just >> because he thinks that it will never get out of the lab... >> >I looked at your draft and looks ok. Actually, MAC addresses >> have a 'local-valid-only' bit but I forgot whether it >> >was in OUI or not or maybe that's the bit you found. >> > >> >small comment on draft, pls find a reference to OUI >> description and include it. Many people don't know the >> >concept >> > >> > thanks >> > >> > -- tony >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >> http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg >> _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 19:14:48 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12269 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Moht55501; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63MWkt55363 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g63Mrx6l025692; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABV51749; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020703185251.03cace98@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Naiming Shen From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: <20020703221026.AC1F01531C3@prattle.redback.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB70D@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:53:22 -0400 Good point. It should be for all IS-IS PDUs. At 06:10 PM 7/3/2002, Naiming Shen wrote: >Philip, > is there a reason this TLV meant only for LSP packet, not >for any isis pdus? i would think this optional TLV can be useful >for other type of isis packets. > >thanks. > > ] > ] First shot at a draft. Comments? > ] > ] Philip > >- Naiming >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 3 19:20:34 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA12511 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63MuPt55580; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g63Md2t55416 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:39:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Tony Przygienda'" , Jeff Parker Cc: "'Jeff Learman'" , Philip Christian , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:55:49 -0400 I must have too much time on my hands. I noticed a few dozen with bit 1 set, but there is even one with bit 0 set! 11-00-AA (hex) PRIVATE 1100AA (base 16) And the old DEC hands will remember these addresses - all with Philip's bit set. - jeff parker AA-00-00 (hex) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AA0000 (base 16) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION LKG 1-2/A19 550 KING STREET LITTLETON MA 01460-1289 AA-00-01 (hex) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AA0001 (base 16) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION LKG 1-2/A19 550 KING STREET LITTLETON MA 01460-1289 AA-00-02 (hex) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AA0002 (base 16) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION LKG 1-2/A19 550 KING STREET LITTLETON MA 01460-1289 AA-00-03 (hex) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AA0003 (base 16) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION LKG 1-2/A19 550 KING STREET LITTLETON MA 01460-1289 AA-00-04 (hex) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AA0004 (base 16) DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION LKG 1-2/A19 550 KING STREET LITTLETON MA 01460-1289 _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Thu Jul 4 08:57:08 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16470 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g64CW8t60378; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 05:32:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g64CIrt60279 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 05:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sivaa@indiatimes.com) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g64CdecY086084 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 05:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WS0005.indiatimes.com ([203.199.93.15]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 4 Jul 2002 05:35:43 -0700 Received: from 192.168.57.15 (a1 [192.168.57.21]) by WS0005.indiatimes.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA02151 for "workgroup"; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:30:53 +0530 From: "Sivakumar A" Message-Id: <200207041200.RAA02151@WS0005.indiatimes.com> To: "workgroup" Reply-To: "Sivakumar A" X-URL: http://indiatimes.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_200274417385894429689" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jul 2002 12:35:44.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[50CCEF50:01C22357] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] Route Redistribution from other routing protocols? Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:38:05 +0530 --=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_200274417385894429689 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello all, I require a small clarification regarding the other protocol learnt routes (RIP, OSPF etc) to be given to ISIS 1. Should ISIS summarise the external routes aquired from other protocols? 2. How should ISIS advertise the routes learn from other protocol? Is it External Route and External Metric or External Route and Internal Metric. Thanks and Regards Siva Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from http://www.planetm.co.in --=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_200274417385894429689 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hello all,

I require a small clarification regarding the other protocol learnt routes (RIP, OSPF etc) to be given to ISIS

1. Should ISIS summarise the external routes aquired from other protocols?

2. How should ISIS advertise the routes learn from other protocol? Is it External Route and External Metric or External Route and Internal Metric.

Thanks and Regards

Siva

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com
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Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Thu Jul 4 16:02:28 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23941 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g64JcPt62558; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g64JGOt62449 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from carlsonj@phorcys.east.sun.com) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g64JbEcW092232 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:35:11 -0700 Received: from eastmail1.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.240]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13546; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:37:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by eastmail1.East.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id PAA24747; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.12.3+Sun/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g64Jb9qH021498; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.12.3+Sun/8.12.3/Submit) id g64Jb9jx021495; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:37:09 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15652.41957.190988.397909@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: James Carlson To: "Yongjun Im" Cc: Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] PPP/HDLC encapsulation for IS-IS packet In-Reply-To: Yongjun Im's message of 5 July 2002 00:53:35 References: <008f01c22372$f50059c0$3b8c9696@lge.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.2.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jul 2002 19:35:11.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[E964E990:01C22391] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:37:09 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yongjun Im writes: > 3. IS-IS packet over PPP/HDLC > Flag = 0x7E (HDLC) The flag isn't actually part of the frame, any more than the escape characters ("byte stuffing") or bit-stuffing. On most hardware implementations, you will not see this byte at all. > Address = 0xFF > Control = 0x03 The HDLC Address and Control fields can be negotiated away by LCP. See RFC 1661. > Protocol = 0x23 The protocol field is two octets by default, but can be negotiated down to one octet by LCP for protocols (such as OSI) that are in the range 0000-00FF. > NLPID = 0x83 Note that RFC 1377 allows padding before the NLPID. > ISIS PDU (variable) > FCS (4bytes) The default PPP FCS on most media is 2 octets, not 4. It's 4 on a few high-speed links. See RFC 2615. > Flag = 0x7E (HDLC) Same as above. Note that HDLC frames don't really require a starting and ending flag -- merely one flag between adjacent frames. > I think I'm pretty much sure regarding the Ethernet and AAL5 PDU encapsulation, > while I'm wondering the PPP/HDLC encapsulation since I couldn't find > any standard or implementation documentation about that. RFCs 1377, 1661, and 1662 should cover it. > I would greatly appreciate > if you could verify whether the PPP/HDLC encapsulation above is correct. Pretty close, minus the LCP negotiation bits. > In addition, I was told that Cisco uses the proprietary PPP/HDLC implementaion > for ISIS packet that is described in Section 4.3.1 of RFC 1547. > > [Except from RFC 1547] > "The Cisco Systems gateway supports both asynchronous links using SLIP > and synchronous links using either simple HDLC framing, X.25 LAPB or > full X.25. The HDLC framing procedure includes a four byte header. > The first octet (address) is either 0x0F (unicast intent) or 0x8F > (multicast intent). The second octet (control byte) is left zero and > is not checked on reception. The third and fourth octets contain a > standard 16 bit Ethernet protocol type code." That's not PPP -- that's Cisco HDLC. The two are not the same at all. > In accordance with the description above, I think the L2 header format might be as follows; That looks roughly correct, but if you don't have a Cisco router handy to verify this and do the obvious interoperability testing, does it matter? > If the encapsulation I assumed above is correct, is that popular or just > Cisco's proprietary? Which one is the most typical PPP/HDLC encapsulation > for ISIS packet? There's only one PPP. That protocol you're referring to isn't PPP. > When we operate the IS-IS protocol over PoS interface, > which HDLC/PPP encapsulation is preferred and what kind of encapsulation > options are available? Any interoperabilty issues? I'd prefer PPP, because it's widely available and interoperable. > Please do what you can to disable HTML in your outbound email ... -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking SUN Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.234W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.497N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Thu Jul 4 17:44:03 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25530 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g64LM8t63080; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g64L79t63003 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g64LRxM21639 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:28:00 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ11XHS>; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:28:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB74E@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C223A1.AB292F28" Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:27:59 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C223A1.AB292F28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here is my latest attempt at proprietary TLV. Sorry if I have missed anyones ideas/comments, my inbox is a mess. I cannot submit it as an Internet Draft until the 15th. Philip Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian, INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks July 2002 TLV for Proprietary Use draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt Status of this Memo This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet Drafts. Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a "working draft" or "work in progress". The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this draft is unlimited. 1. Abstract This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines the format of the TLV. 2. Conventions used in this document The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. Christian Expires January 2003 1 TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 3. Introduction TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets (PDUs). When added to IS-IS LSPs they are flooded throughout an IS-IS level-1 area or level-2 subdomain, and when added to IS-IS Hello PDUs they are are present only on a specific interface of an IS-IS router. The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined in ISO 10589 [1]. The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known TLV type numbers at this time. No TLV type number has ever been defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at a later time for a different function, thus creating an interoperability problem. Such use also accelerates the consumption of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV for different purposes in the same network without creating interoperability problems. By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. 4. TLV type number for proprietary use The type field for this TLV SHALL be 250. TLVs that use 250 for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. OUIs are three byte unique numbers that may be purchased from the IEEE and which are used for several purposes. Typically the first three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI for example. By buying an an OUI a vendor has effectively bought a block of sixteen million MAC addresses, and so most vendors already have an OUI that may also be used for proprietary TLVs as per this document. For more information about OUIs see [3]. Christian Expires January 2003 2 TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the first byte set in vendor implementations. This bit is ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion of MAC addresses to mean "locally administered", and is reserved for locally administered (experimental) values in this TLV, e.g., for academic purposes. The TLV of type 250 may be used in IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs. On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST ignore TLVs of type 250 that include an OUI that is not recognised, however the router MUST flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if they include unrecognised proprietary TLVs. After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is conformant with [1]. Organisations will have access only to a finite number of OUIs. The IEEE reserves the right to not assign more OUIs to organisations that already have them. For more information see [3]. Therefore implementors would be well advised to think about defining a format whereby one OUI can be used for multiple types of proprietary TLV. Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if sub-TLVs are to be used then the very first and all subsequent implementations that use that OUI will need to recognize the sub-TLV structure, and ignore sub-TLVs that it does not understand whilst searching for sub-TLVs that it does understand. 5. Security Considerations The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain, and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be visible outside of an operator's network. However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not secure either. 6. References [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 Christian Expires January 2003 3 TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html 7. Acknowledgments The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly received. 8. Author's Addresses Philip Christian Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA UK Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com Christian Expires January 2003 4 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C223A1.AB292F28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv

Here is my latest attempt at proprietary TLV.
Sorry if I have missed anyones ideas/comments, my = inbox is a mess.
I cannot submit it as an Internet Draft until the = 15th.

Philip


Internet Engineering Task = Force           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;   P. Christian,
INTERNET = DRAFT           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;      Nortel Networks
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   July 2002
 
 
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   TLV for Proprietary Use
          &nb= sp;          = draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt
 
Status of this Memo
 
   This document is an Internet-Draft and = is in full conformance with
   all provisions of Section 10 of RFC = 2026.
   
   Internet Drafts are working documents = of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its = Working Groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute = working documents as Internet
   Drafts.
   
   Internet Drafts are draft documents = valid for a maximum of six
   months.  Internet Drafts may be = updated, replaced, or obsoleted by
   other documents at any time.  It = is not appropriate to use Internet
   Drafts as reference material or to cite = them other than as a
   "working draft" or "work = in progress".
   
   The list of current Internet-Drafts can = be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt =
   
   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow = Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.
   
   This memo provides information for the = Internet community. This memo
   does not specify an Internet standard = of any kind. 
   
   Distribution of this draft is = unlimited.
   
   
1. Abstract
   
   This document defines a TLV that may be = used for vendor specific or
   experimental extensions to the IS-IS = routing protocol, and defines
   the format of the TLV.
   
   
2. Conventions used in this document
   
   The key words "MUST", = "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", = "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD = NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and = "OPTIONAL" in
   this document are to be interpreted as = described in RFC 2119.
   







Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 1
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;    July 2002
 
3. Introduction
   
   TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets = (PDUs).  When added to IS-IS
   LSPs they are flooded throughout an = IS-IS level-1 area or level-2
   subdomain, and when added to IS-IS = Hello PDUs they are are present
   only on a specific interface of an = IS-IS router.

   The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined = in ISO 10589 [1].
   
   The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is = identified by the first byte
   of the TLV.  Thus there are only = 256 possible basic types of TLV. 
   Certain types of TLV have been defined = to include sub-TLVs so that a
   single TLV type can be used for = multiple functions.
   
   No single authority assigns TLV type = numbers, [2] lists all known
   TLV type numbers at this time.  No = TLV type number has ever been
   defined for private, proprietary or = experimental use.
   
   The extensible nature of IS-IS has made = the use of TLVs in LSPs for
   proprietary purposes so useful that in = the absence of a central
   authority for assigning TLV type = numbers vendors have occasionally
   simply chosen a number and hoped for = the best.  The risk is that
   such a TLV type number may then be = chosen by another organization at
   a later time for a different function, = thus creating an
   interoperability problem.  Such = use also accelerates the consumption
   of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. =
   
   This document specifies a TLV type = number that may be used for
   proprietary, private or experimental = purposes, and a mechanism that
   insures that implementations from = different sources can use the TLV
   for different purposes in the same = network without creating
   interoperability problems.
   
   By using this new TLV, companies, = individuals or institutions may
   use extensions to IS-IS without fear of = interoperability problems
   with other organizations in the future, = and the available pool of
   TLV type numbers will no longer be = diminished by proprietary use.
   
4. TLV type number for proprietary use
   
   The type field for this TLV SHALL be = 250.
   
   TLVs that use 250 for the type field = MUST include a valid IEEE
   assigned OUI as the first three bytes = of the value field of the TLV.

   OUIs are three byte unique numbers that = may be purchased from the
   IEEE and which are used for several = purposes.  Typically the first
   three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI = for example.  By buying an
   an OUI a vendor has effectively bought = a block of sixteen million
   MAC addresses, and so most vendors = already have an OUI that may
   also be used for proprietary TLVs as = per this document.

   For more information about OUIs see [3]. =
  

Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 2
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;    July 2002

   The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the = first byte set in vendor
   implementations.  This bit is = ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion
   of MAC addresses to mean "locally = administered", and is reserved for
   locally administered (experimental) = values in this TLV, e.g., for
   academic purposes.
 
   The TLV of type 250 may be used in = IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs.

   On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST = ignore TLVs of type 250
   that include an OUI that is not = recognised, however the router MUST
   flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if = they include unrecognised
   proprietary TLVs.
 
   After the first three bytes of the = value field subsequent bytes may
   be used freely for any purpose provided = that the resultant TLV is
   conformant with [1].
   
   Organisations will have access only to = a finite number of OUIs. The
   IEEE reserves the right to not assign = more OUIs to organisations
   that already have them.  For more = information see [3].  Therefore
   implementors would be well advised to = think about defining a
   format whereby one OUI can be used for = multiple types of
   proprietary TLV.

   Implementers are free to format the = value field after their OUI into
   sub-TLVs so that it may be used for = multiple purposes, and would be
   well advised to do this from the = outset.  Note that if sub-TLVs are
   to be used then the very first and all = subsequent implementations
   that use that OUI will need to = recognize the sub-TLV structure, and
   ignore sub-TLVs that it does not = understand whilst searching for
   sub-TLVs that it does understand. =
   
5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new = security issues for IS-IS. 

   IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to = an operators routing domain,
   and so information placed in a = proprietary TLV will not normally be
   visible outside of an operator's = network.

   However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, = and so if a link over which
   an adjacency is maintained is not = secure, then any information
   contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a = proprietary TLV is not
   secure either.
   
6. References
   
   [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to = Intermediate system routeing
   information exchange protocol for use = in conjunction with the
   Protocol for providing the = Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO
   8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. =
   
   [2] = draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV
   Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, = November 2001
    
Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 3
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;    July 2002

   [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html

7. Acknowledgments
   
   The author takes no credit for this = work as the concept was
   discussed in the IS-IS Working Group = before the author even became
   an active participant.  = Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly
   received.
   
8. Author's Addresses
   
   Philip Christian
   Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories =
   London Road, Harlow,
   Essex, CM17 9NA UK
   
   Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com =






































Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 4

------_=_NextPart_001_01C223A1.AB292F28-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Fri Jul 5 06:38:31 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17826 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 06:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g65AG1t67327; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.juniper.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g65ADgt67306 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by colo-rojo.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g65AYIpB057044 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.176]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:32:31 -0700 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA17001; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 06:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207051033.GAA17001@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: isis-wg@juniper.net From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jul 2002 10:32:31.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[44A468D0:01C2240F] X-Not-Spam: Spam Score: 3.3 - NO_REAL_NAME,TO_MALFORMED,EXCUSE_6,DOUBLE_CAPSWORD X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 06:33:45 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : M-ISIS: Multi Topology (MT)Routing in IS-IS Author(s) : T. Przygienda, N. Shen, N. Sheth Filename : draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt Pages : 10 Date : 03-Jul-02 This draft describes an optional mechanism within ISIS used today by many ISPs for IGP routing within their clouds. This draft describes how to run within a single ISIS domain a set of independent IP topologies that we call Multi-Topologies (MTs). This MT extension can be used for variety of purposes such as an in-band management network ``on top'' of the original IGP topology, maintain separate IGP routing domains for isolated multicast or IPv6 islands within the backbone, or force a subset of an address space to follow a different topology. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020703131758.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020703131758.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 09:53:51 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14740 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68DVCt91601; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5BEbwt66726 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mshand@cisco.com) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (lon-sto4-lan-vlan133-dhcp30.cisco.com [144.254.108.97]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19982; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:55:39 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020611154537.025ce140@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Philip Christian" From: mike shand Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "'Tony Przygienda'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Mike Truskowski'" In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB70D@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:55:33 +0100 At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that > include an OUI from a different organization, MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you know how to parse company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so. I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs with G or L bits set. Mike _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 19:13:28 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16430 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68Mp0t94701; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68MdMt94633 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g68N0ci27211 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:00:38 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1HA9T>; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:00:39 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB759@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C226D3.3C1D7A78" Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:00:31 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C226D3.3C1D7A78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have been trying to find a way to get this doc to everyone. The IETF are not accepting drafts until the 15th, and the list server won't accept the draft inline or as an attachment because it is too big. Anyway. I will be submitting this on the 15th as a working group item. In the meantime if anyone wants to read it then they can go get it from ftp://ftp-uk.nortelnetworks.com/drop/isiswg/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.tx t Please see the comments below and enjoy. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:49 PM To: 'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net' Subject: draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt You will all no doubt remember the ITU-T DCN document that the ITU-T liaised to this working group some months ago, and the automatic encapsulation feature that appeared in Annex B of that doc. The ITU-T also asked me to write an Internet Draft on the subject, which I have now done. This text belongs to this working group and is copyright Internet Society. It is not an ITU-T document. I attempted to submit this as a draft last week, but forgot that drafts cannot be submitted at this time. I will be submitting it on the 15th instead. I'm sure that there will be plenty of useful comments, but I am thinking that it would be better still to submit this as is, and then incorporate comments into an 01 version later. I wouldn't want to cause confusion by having two docs with the same number floating around. I see no reason to keep you guys waiting, and so I am sending it to the list now (again, it bounced the last time). It needs to be viewed in courier font to see the diagrams. Enjoy Philip ------_=_NextPart_001_01C226D3.3C1D7A78 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt

I have been trying to find a way to get this doc to = everyone.
The IETF are not accepting drafts until the 15th, = and the list
server won't accept the draft inline or as an = attachment because
it is too big.

Anyway.  I will be submitting this on the 15th = as a working group
item.  In the meantime if anyone wants to read = it then they can
go get it from
ftp://ftp-uk.nortelnetworks.com/drop/isiswg/draft-ietf= -isis-auto-encap-00.txt

Please see the comments below and enjoy.

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:49 PM
To: 'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'
Subject: draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt


You will all no doubt remember the ITU-T DCN document = that the
ITU-T liaised to this working group some months ago, = and the
automatic encapsulation feature that appeared in = Annex B of that doc.

The ITU-T also asked me to write an Internet Draft on = the subject,
which I have now done.

This text belongs to this working group and is = copyright Internet
Society.  It is not an ITU-T document.

I attempted to submit this as a draft last week, but = forgot that
drafts cannot be submitted at this time.  I = will be submitting
it on the 15th instead.

I'm sure that there will be plenty of useful = comments, but I am
thinking that it would be better still to submit = this as is, and
then incorporate comments into an 01 version later. = I wouldn't want
to cause confusion by having two docs with the same = number floating
around.

I see no reason to keep you guys waiting, and so I am = sending it to
the list now (again, it bounced the last = time).

It needs to be viewed in courier font to see the = diagrams.

Enjoy

Philip

------_=_NextPart_001_01C226D3.3C1D7A78-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 19:35:46 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17278 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68NDht94843; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68N44t94786 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from christi@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g68NPKi27567 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:25:20 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1HBDR>; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:25:21 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB75B@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C226D6.63710204" Subject: [Isis-wg] what no RFCs ? Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:25:12 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C226D6.63710204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I just went to http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/isis-wg-charter.html and it says "No Request For Comments" I think that it has been that way for a few days now. wierd Philip ------_=_NextPart_001_01C226D6.63710204 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable what no RFCs ?

I just went to
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/isis-wg-charter.html=
and it says "No Request For = Comments"
I think that it has been that way for a few days = now.

wierd

Philip

------_=_NextPart_001_01C226D6.63710204-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:04:37 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18374 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68NgZt95056; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5CGHvt74064 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5CGadYN009306; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-597.cisco.com [10.82.226.85]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABR25407; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020612121454.01a53d48@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Philip Christian" From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Tony Przygienda'" , "'Mike Truskowski'" , "'mike shand'" In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB710@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_55143622==_.ALT" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:27:38 -0400 --=====================_55143622==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Minor comments below. At 08:33 AM 6/12/2002, Philip Christian wrote: >I have done an update, see below > >Philip > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mike shand [mailto:mshand@cisco.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:56 PM >> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >> Cc: 'Tony Przygienda'; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; 'Mike Truskowski' >> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> >> >> At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >> >On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that >> > include an OUI from a different organization, >> >> MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you >> know how to parse >> company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so. >> >> I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs >> with G or L >> bits set. >> >> Mike >> >> > >Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian >INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks > June 2002 > > > TLV for Proprietary Use > draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist2.txt > >Status of this Memo > > This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with > all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. > > Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering > Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that > other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet > Drafts. > > Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six > months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by > other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet > Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a > "working draft" or "work in progress". > > The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt > > The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. > > This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo > does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. > > Distribution of this draft is unlimited. > > >1. Abstract > > This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or > experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines > the format of the TLV. > > >2. Conventions used in this document > > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in > this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. > > > > > > > TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 > >3. Introduction > > IS-IS as defined in [1] has always been an extensible routing > protocol. Extensions to IS-IS are encoded as a TLV. Critically [1] > has always defined that an IS-IS router SHALL flood entire LSPs that > it receives on to other IS-IS routers in the network, whether or not > it understands the TLVs that are included in the LSP. Also IS-IS > LSPs are structured such that a router can find TLVs that it > understands, whilst ignoring ones that it does not. > > Thus information that is encoded into a TLV and placed into an LSP > by a router will be propagated to every other router in an IS-IS > level-1 area or level-2 subdomain. > > The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte > of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. > Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a > single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. > > No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known use semicolon instead of comma above > TLV type numbers at this time. Also no TLV type number was ever > defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. > > The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for > proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central > authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally > simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that > such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at > a later time for a different function, thus creating an > interoperability problem. Also this accelerates the burning of the "depletion" rather than "burning". > 256 possible TLV type numbers. > > This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for > proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that > insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV > for different purposes in the same network without creating > interoperability problems. > > By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may > use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems > with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of > TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. > >4. TLV type number for proprietary use > > The type field for this TLV SHALL be XXX. > > TLVs that use XXX for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE > assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. > For more information about OUIs see [3]. > > > > TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 > > On receipt of an LSP a router MAY ignore TLVs of type XXX that > include an OUI from a different organization, however the router "unrecognized OUI" rather than "different organization". And I think "MAY" should be "MUST", but I won't quibble. > MUST flood the LSP onwards as per [1]. > > After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may > be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is > conformant with [1]. I would say "The format of the remainder of the TLV would be defined by the identified organization, and MUST be conformant with [1]." > > Many organizations will have access to only one or a few OUIs. > Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into > sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be > well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if sub-TLVs are > to be used then the very first implementation to exist will need to > recognize the sub-TLV structure, and ignore sub-TLVs that it does > not understand whilst searching for sub-TLVs that it does > understand. This is one way. Another way would be to use EUI48 or EUI64 numbers as type codes, especially for large organizations to allow hierarchical assignment of type codes. EUI numbers start with the OUI, and the remainder is allocated by the organization owning the OUI. Admittedly, this doesn't allow as optimized use of a switch statement as sub-TLVs would. Regards, Jeff > 5. Security Considerations > > The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. > Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, and > so if security is required then an implementation will need to > encrypt the information using a suitable method. > >6. References > > [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing > information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the > Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO > 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. > > [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV > Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 > > [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html > >7. Acknowledgments > > The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was > discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became > an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly > received. > >8. Author's Addresses > > Philip Christian > Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories > London Road, Harlow, > Essex, CM17 9NA UK > > Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com --=====================_55143622==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Minor comments below.

At 08:33 AM 6/12/2002, Philip Christian wrote:

I have done an update, see below

Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mike shand [mailto:mshand@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:56 PM
> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> Cc: 'Tony Przygienda'; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; 'Mike Truskowski'
> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
>
>
> At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> >On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that
> >    include an OUI from a different organization,
>
> MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you
> know how to parse
> company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so.
>
> I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs
> with G or L
> bits set.
>
>          Mike
>
>

Internet Engineering Task Force                            P. Christian
INTERNET DRAFT                                          Nortel Networks
                                                              June 2002
 
 
                          TLV for Proprietary Use
                     draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist2.txt
 
Status of this Memo
 
   This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with
   all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026.
   
   Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet
   Drafts.
   
   Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six
   months.  Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by
   other documents at any time.  It is not appropriate to use Internet
   Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a
   "working draft" or "work in progress".
   
   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt
   
   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.
   
   This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo
   does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. 
   
   Distribution of this draft is unlimited.
   
   
1. Abstract
   
   This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or
   experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines
   the format of the TLV.
   
   
2. Conventions used in this document
   
   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in
   this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
   




 
                       TLV for Proprietary Use               June 2002 
 
3. Introduction
   
   IS-IS as defined in [1] has always been an extensible routing
   protocol.  Extensions to IS-IS are encoded as a TLV.  Critically [1]
   has always defined that an IS-IS router SHALL flood entire LSPs that
   it receives on to other IS-IS routers in the network, whether or not
   it understands the TLVs that are included in the LSP.  Also IS-IS
   LSPs are structured such that a router can find TLVs that it
   understands, whilst ignoring ones that it does not.
   
   Thus information that is encoded into a TLV and placed into an LSP
   by a router will be propagated to every other router in an IS-IS
   level-1 area or level-2 subdomain.
   
   The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte
   of the TLV.  Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. 
   Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a
   single TLV type can be used for multiple functions.
   
   No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known

use semicolon instead of comma above

   TLV type numbers at this time.  Also no TLV type number was ever
   defined for private, proprietary or experimental use.
   
   The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for
   proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central
   authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally
   simply chosen a number and hoped for the best.  The risk is that
   such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at
   a later time for a different function, thus creating an
   interoperability problem. Also this accelerates the burning of the

"depletion" rather than "burning".

   256 possible TLV type numbers.
   
   This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for
   proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that
   insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV
   for different purposes in the same network without creating
   interoperability problems.
   
   By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may
   use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems
   with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of
   TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use.
   
4. TLV type number for proprietary use
   
   The type field for this TLV SHALL be XXX.
   
   TLVs that use XXX for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE
   assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. 
   For more information about OUIs see [3].
   

 
                       TLV for Proprietary Use               June 2002 
 
   On receipt of an LSP a router MAY ignore TLVs of type XXX that
   include an OUI from a different organization, however the router

"unrecognized OUI" rather than "different organization".  And I think
"MAY" should be "MUST", but I won't quibble.

   MUST flood the LSP onwards as per [1].
 
   After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may
   be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is
   conformant with [1].

I would say "The format of the remainder of the TLV would be defined
by the identified organization, and MUST be conformant with [1]."

   
   Many organizations will have access to only one or a few OUIs. 
   Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into
   sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be
   well advised to do this from the outset.  Note that if sub-TLVs are
   to be used then the very first implementation to exist will need to
   recognize the sub-TLV structure, and ignore sub-TLVs that it does
   not understand whilst searching for sub-TLVs that it does
   understand.

This is one way.  Another way would be to use EUI48 or EUI64 numbers
as type codes, especially for large organizations to allow hierarchical
assignment of type codes.  EUI numbers start with the OUI, and the
remainder is allocated by the organization owning the OUI.  Admittedly,
this doesn't allow as optimized use of a switch statement as sub-TLVs
would.

Regards,
Jeff

    5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. 
   Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, and
   so if security is required then an implementation will need to
   encrypt the information using a suitable method.
   
6. References
   
   [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing
   information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the
   Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO
   8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992.
   
   [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV
   Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001
   
   [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html
   
7. Acknowledgments
   
   The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was
   discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became
   an active participant.  Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly
   received.
   
8. Author's Addresses
   
   Philip Christian
   Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories
   London Road, Harlow,
   Essex, CM17 9NA UK
   
   Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com
--=====================_55143622==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:05:02 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18417 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68Nh6t95089; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.juniper.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5CJKkt74903 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by colo-rojo.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5CJdJD01130 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from hotmail.com ([216.33.237.149]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:36:37 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:38:21 -0700 Received: from 63.104.212.252 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:38:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.104.212.252] From: "Kent Wong" To: isis-wg@juniper.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2002 19:38:21.0726 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5D33BE0:01C21248] Subject: [Isis-wg] Questions and Comment on draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:38:21 +0000 Hi, I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: 1. On Page 6 "....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs (containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will fail anyway. 2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting router finish the complete restart procedure. In that way, there is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. 3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. 4. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behaviour of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behaviour even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 5. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, somes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpretate the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! ---Kent Wong _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:05:41 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18449 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68NhHt95114; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.juniper.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5CKZOt75265 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kentwong@stanfordalumni.org) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by colo-rojo.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5CKrvD03156 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from uadvg134.mx.net ([165.212.11.134]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:51:32 -0700 Received: (qmail 23013 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2002 20:53:27 -0000 Received: from uadvg132.cms.usa.net (HELO uadvg201.cms.usa.net) (165.212.11.132) by corprelay.cms.usa.net with SMTP; 12 Jun 2002 20:53:27 -0000 Received: from cmsweb26.cms.usa.net [165.212.8.26] by uadvg132.cms.usa.net via mtad (CM.1201.1.04A) with ESMTP id 627gFLuzN0097M32; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:51:13 GMT Message-ID: <20020612205314.7494.qmail@cmsweb26.cms.usa.net> Received: from 63.104.212.252 [63.104.212.252] by cmsweb10.cms.usa.net (USANET web-mailer CM.0402.1.07D); Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:53:14 -0000 From: Choto Wong To: X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (CM.0402.1.07D) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2002 20:51:32.0703 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF0D26F0:01C21252] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by external.juniper.net id g5CKZOt75266 Subject: [Isis-wg] Questions and Comment on draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:53:14 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: 1. On Page 6 "....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs (containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will fail anyway. 2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting router finish the complete restart procedure. In that way, there is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. 3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. 4. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behaviour of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behaviour even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but not T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 5. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, somes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpretate the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! ---Kent Wong ____________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:05:58 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18464 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68NhSt95159; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from urdvg002.mx.net (urdvg002.mx.net [165.212.11.2]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g5D1a0t76655 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:36:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kentwong@stanfordalumni.org) Received: (qmail 14517 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2002 01:54:10 -0000 Received: from uadvg132.cms.usa.net (HELO uadvg201.cms.usa.net) (165.212.11.132) by corprelay.cms.usa.net with SMTP; 13 Jun 2002 01:54:10 -0000 Received: from uwdvg020.cms.usa.net [165.212.8.20] by uadvg132.cms.usa.net via mtad (CM.1201.1.04A) with ESMTP id 256gFmB1b0019M32; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:52:27 GMT Message-ID: <20020613015428.2923.qmail@uwdvg020.cms.usa.net> Received: from 63.104.212.252 [63.104.212.252] by uwdvg020.cms.usa.net (USANET web-mailer CM.0402.1.07D); Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:54:28 -0000 From: Choto Wong To: X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (CM.0402.1.07D) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by external.juniper.net id g5D1a0t76659 Subject: [Isis-wg] Questions and comments on draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:54:28 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: 1. On Page 6 "....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs (containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will fail anyway. 2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. 3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. 4. Along the same line of thought, there is no need for a separate T2 and T3. Because when T2 expires/cancels before T3, T3 should be cancelled anyway. The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is when T3 expires before T2. The draft states that "If the timer T3 expires before all the T2 timers have expired, this indicates that the synchronization process is taking longer than minimum holding time of the neighbors. The router's own LSP(s) for levels which have not yet completed their first SPF computation are then flooded with the overload bit set to indicate that the router's LSPDB is not yet synchronized (and other routers should therefore not compute routes through this router)." However this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. What if T3 expires even before it acquires its pre-start LSP? In that case, it doesn't know what sequence number it should use in its zero LSP to set the OL bit. If the seq num it uses is smaller than the seq num in its nbr's DB, then the zero LSP will be ignored by nbr anyway. So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer and set the timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbr. If the timer expires before it DB re-sync, then graceful restart fails and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much more simpler and effective? 5. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behavior of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behavior even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 6. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, sometimes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpret the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! ---Kent Wong ____________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:06:05 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18476 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68Nhet95209; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5D8Y4t78590 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mshand@cisco.com) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (lon-sto4-lan-vlan133-dhcp30.cisco.com [144.254.108.97]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25499; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:52:32 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020613095137.00b730e0@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Jeff Learman From: mike shand Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Tony Przygienda'" , "'Mike Truskowski'" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020612121454.01a53d48@dingdong.cisco.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB710@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:52:29 +0100 At 12:27 12/06/2002 -0400, Jeff Learman wrote: >> TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 >> >> On receipt of an LSP a router MAY ignore TLVs of type XXX that >> include an OUI from a different organization, however the router > >"unrecognized OUI" rather than "different organization". And I think >"MAY" should be "MUST", but I won't quibble. Yes, that's much better. Must ignore if you don't recognize. Mike _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:06:27 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18493 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68Ni0t95292; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:44:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from hotmail.com (f40.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.40]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5DJm0t82229 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:06:39 -0700 Received: from 63.104.212.252 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:06:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.104.212.252] From: "Kent Wong" To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2002 20:06:39.0774 (UTC) FILETIME=[D45A8BE0:01C21315] Subject: [Isis-wg] Questions and comments on draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:06:39 +0000 Resent of e-mail because pervious e-mails were lost: ---------------------------------------------------- Hi, I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: 1. On Page 6 "....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs (containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will fail anyway. 2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. 3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. 4. Along the same line of thought, there is no need for a separate T2 and T3. Because when T2 expires/cancels before T3, T3 should be cancelled anyway. The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is when T3 expires before T2. The draft states that "If the timer T3 expires before all the T2 timers have expired, this indicates that the synchronization process is taking longer than minimum holding time of the neighbors. The router's own LSP(s) for levels which have not yet completed their first SPF computation are then flooded with the overload bit set to indicate that the router's LSPDB is not yet synchronized (and other routers should therefore not compute routes through this router)." However this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. What if T3 expires even before it acquires its pre-start LSP? In that case, it doesn't know what sequence number it should use in its zero LSP to set the OL bit. If the seq num it uses is smaller than the seq num in its nbr's DB, then the zero LSP will be ignored by nbr anyway. So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer and set the timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbr. If the timer expires before it DB re-sync, then graceful restart fails and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much more simpler and effective? 5. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behavior of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behavior even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 6. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, sometimes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpret the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! ---Kent Wong _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:35:53 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA20772 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g690Dnt95662; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from prattle.redback.com (prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g68NxNt95579 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naiming@redback.com) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C0FCAB7C for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:20:41 -0700 (PDT) To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020709002041.56C0FCAB7C@prattle.redback.com> Subject: [Isis-wg] Internet-Drafts@ietf.org: I-D ACTION:draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:20:41 -0700 resend to this list, it didn't come out last time I tried. pls comment. thanks. - Naiming ------- Forwarded Message From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:36:50 -0400 - --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : ISIS IIH Sequence Number Scheme Author(s) : N. Shen, S. Luong Filename : draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt Pages : 4 Date : 20-Jun-02 This draft describes an optional sequence number TLV inside the ISIS IIH packets. This sequence number TLV can be used for ISIS adjacency troubleshooting especially in the case where a large number of adjacencies are maintained and/or a low adjacency holddown time is used for the purpose of fast convergence. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. - --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" - --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020620141640.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt - --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-shen-isis-iih-sequence-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020620141640.I-D@ietf.org> - --OtherAccess-- - --NextPart-- ------- End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Mon Jul 8 20:44:25 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21134 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g690M1t95732; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from prattle.redback.com (prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6904Mt95607 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naiming@redback.com) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83401DCC76 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:25:40 -0700 (PDT) To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020709002540.A83401DCC76@prattle.redback.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:25:40 -0700 this is the latest version of m-isis draft. the main change is introducing the Generic MT SPF concept for network management purposes. pls comment. thanks. - Naiming ------- Forwarded Message From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 06:33:45 -0400 - --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : M-ISIS: Multi Topology (MT)Routing in IS-IS Author(s) : T. Przygienda, N. Shen, N. Sheth Filename : draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt Pages : 10 Date : 03-Jul-02 This draft describes an optional mechanism within ISIS used today by many ISPs for IGP routing within their clouds. This draft describes how to run within a single ISIS domain a set of independent IP topologies that we call Multi-Topologies (MTs). This MT extension can be used for variety of purposes such as an in-band management network ``on top'' of the original IGP topology, maintain separate IGP routing domains for isolated multicast or IPv6 islands within the backbone, or force a subset of an address space to follow a different topology. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. - --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" - --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020703131758.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt - --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020703131758.I-D@ietf.org> - --OtherAccess-- - --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg ------- End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Tue Jul 9 00:58:58 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02682 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g694alt97221; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:36:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from xover.netplane.com (cnxt10002.conexant.com [198.62.10.2]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g694LHt97124 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swaminathanr@netplane.com) Received: by XOVER.dedham.mindspeed.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:41:15 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Ramalingam, Swaminathan" To: "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" , "'jparker@axiowave.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] ISIS MIB: Circuit & Level Table Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:43:42 -0400 Hi Jeff, Following are the doubts i encounter when i gone through ISIS MIB Ver 8 1. isisCircLocalID, as specified in Overview, is not moved to ISIS circuit Level table which is still in the Circuit table. I understand it has to be moved. 2. If Local Ckt ID is level specific (isisCircLocalID), PTP ckt ID (isisCircPtToPtCircID) will be level specific, which is still in Circuit Table. 3. Hello Timer in Circuit Level Table Description reads like: "Maximum period, in milliseconds, between IIH PDUs on multiaccess networks at this level for LANs. The value at level 1 is used as the period between Hellos on point to point circuits. Setting this value at level 2 on a point to point circuit will result in an error of InconsistentValue" But if the system is L2 Only, it is more appropriate to get from L2. I suggest description can be changed as , when the level is L1L2, then setting at L2 may result in Inconsistent Value. Thanks, Swami _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Tue Jul 9 08:45:31 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA22743 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69CM0t99935; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:22:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69C9jt99872 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scoya@cnri.reston.va.us) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g69CSZfQ082298 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.176]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:26:14 -0700 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21811; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207091227.IAA21811@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: RFC Editor , Internet Architecture Board , isis-wg@juniper.net From: The IESG X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2002 12:26:14.0183 (UTC) FILETIME=[D0F56370:01C22743] X-Not-Spam: Spam Score: 1.1 - TO_MALFORMED X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] Document Action: Three-Way Handshake for IS-IS Point-to-Point Adjacencies to Informational Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:27:28 -0400 The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'Three-Way Handshake for IS-IS Point-to-Point Adjacencies' as an Informational RFC. This document is the product of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alex Zinin and Bill Fenner. Technical Summary The document introduces a backward-compatible extension to the IS-IS routing protocol that ensures two-way connectivity on point-to-point links through a three-way handshaking mechanism. The document also extends the protocol to support more than 256 point-to-point links per router. Working Group Summary There was support for this document in the WG. All comments brought up during the WG Last Call have been addressed. Protocol Quality Alex Zinin has reviewed the specification for the IESG. The mechanisms described in the document have been implemented by multiple router vendors and have been widely deployed in the Internet. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 9 11:08:42 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28506 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08637; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08606 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27800 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g69EwBC20991 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:58:11 +0200 Message-ID: <3D2AF993.1090600@net4u.ch> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 07:56:19 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] inauguration mail for the new list ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Tue Jul 9 11:28:07 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29204 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69F51t01001; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69EmUt00917 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Ramalingam, Swaminathan'" , "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] RE: ISIS MIB: Circuit & Level Table Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:03:13 -0400 > Hi Jeff, > > Following are the doubts i encounter when i gone through ISIS > MIB Ver 8 I am sending you the current version 9 by private mail. > 1. isisCircLocalID, as specified in Overview, is not moved to > ISIS circuit > Level table which is still in the Circuit table. I understand > it has to be > moved. > > 2. If Local Ckt ID is level specific (isisCircLocalID), PTP ckt ID > (isisCircPtToPtCircID) will be level specific, which is still > in Circuit > Table. I have deleted isisCircPtToPtCircID and resurected isisCircLevelLocalID > 3. Hello Timer in Circuit Level Table Description reads like: > "Maximum period, in milliseconds, between IIH PDUs on > multiaccess > networks at this level for LANs. > The value at level 1 is used as the period between Hellos on > point to point > circuits. Setting this value > at level 2 on a point to point circuit will result in an error of > InconsistentValue" > But if the system is L2 Only, it is more appropriate to get > from L2. I > suggest description can be changed as , when the level is > L1L2, then setting > at L2 may result in Inconsistent Value. > Thanks, > Swami Handling levels in P2P is a torment. I have considered adding a circuit specific timer to avoid this. I suspect you are right, as this would force the creation of a circ level at the wrong level. New text reads "Maximum period, in milliseconds, between IIH PDUs on multiaccess networks at this level for LANs. The value at level 1 is used as the period between Hellos on L1L2 point to point circuits. Setting this value at level 2 on an L1L2 point to point circuit will result in an error of InconsistentValue. This object follows the resettingTimer behavior." - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Tue Jul 9 14:32:43 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06583 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69I9kt02094; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.juniper.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69I2Vt02039 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:02:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prz@net4u.ch) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by colo-rojo.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g69INpop056299 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch ([194.191.0.1]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:21:44 -0700 Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g69IP3C03911; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:25:03 +0200 Message-ID: <3D2B2A0B.2080101@net4u.ch> From: Tony Przygienda User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org, isis-wg@juniper.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2002 18:21:44.0312 (UTC) FILETIME=[7AB4C780:01C22775] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] last call on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04 ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:23:07 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since multi-topology draft underwent non-trivial revisions during the last call, we are reinitiating last call on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04. The last call will end 7/25/02 thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 9 14:36:23 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06715 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26515; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26483 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06162 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g69IP3C03911; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:25:03 +0200 Message-ID: <3D2B2A0B.2080101@net4u.ch> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:23:07 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org, isis-wg@juniper.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] last call on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04 ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since multi-topology draft underwent non-trivial revisions during the last call, we are reinitiating last call on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04. The last call will end 7/25/02 thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Tue Jul 9 16:48:01 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16981 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69KP1t02789; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:25:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69KCot02726 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from prz@net4u.ch) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g69KUkeM097796 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch ([194.191.0.1]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:25:39 -0700 Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g69KT0C26117 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:29:00 +0200 Message-ID: <3D2B4718.7010702@net4u.ch> From: Tony Przygienda User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2002 20:25:39.0683 (UTC) FILETIME=[CA885B30:01C22786] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] Important: moving the list ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 13:27:04 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit L&G, we will be moving the mailing list from isis-wg@juniper.net to isis-wg@ietf.org. Please mail to the new list, the old one should be operational for a couple of days from now but no guarantees are being made. All of the isis-wg people should have been mass-subscribed by now to the new list. Archives will be moved over in a short while. Thanks to couple of people forcing the issue and the friendly IETF stuff for making it happen. Thanks to Juniper of course for bearing the list for so long thanks --- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 19:39:45 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23414 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6ANEht10726; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from gnat.inet.org (gnat.inet.org [63.108.254.91]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5DKcft82476 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:38:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rja@extremenetworks.com) Received: from mosquito.inet.org (unknown [10.30.20.242]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1C867103; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: Isis (E-mail) To: "Philip Christian" From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB710@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Message-Id: <213ACF92-7F10-11D6-B00E-00039357A82A@extremenetworks.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by external.juniper.net id g5DKcgt82477 Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:57:10 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, at 08:33 , Philip Christian wrote: > 5. Security Considerations >   >    The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS.  Excuse me, but I don't think so. I think that it raises new security issues because different vendors might use it in different ways. In a multi-vendor environment there could be unintended consequences where A sends something with the new TLV that is syntactically valid with a different box B, but has unrelated semantics. Even if I'm confused, it is customary to outline *why* one thinks that no new security issues are raised, rather than making the assertion without supporting explanatory text. >    Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, You've not defined "secure". For "secure" == "authentic", then the IS-IS MD5 authentication can provide some security. If by "secure" you mean that "confidentiality" is provided, then please talk in terms of "confidentiality" rather than the vague term "secure". > and >    so if security is required then an implementation will need to >    encrypt the information using a suitable method. This also seems wrong. I'd suggest re-writing the whole section and in the re-write not using the word "secure" anyplace, instead using words like "integrity", "authentication", and/or "confidentiality" so that one's meaning is more crisp and clear. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 19:57:13 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23778 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6ANWet10936; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from hotmail.com (f210.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.210]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5E5Z0t84956 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:53:42 -0700 Received: from 66.245.55.74 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 05:53:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.245.55.74] From: "Kent Wong" To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2002 05:53:42.0827 (UTC) FILETIME=[D6EDE7B0:01C21367] Subject: [Isis-wg] testing, please ignore Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 05:53:42 +0000 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 19:57:19 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23790 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6ANXjt10990; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5E7FWt85438 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mshand@cisco.com) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp4108.cisco.com [10.50.16.11]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03106; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:33:34 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020614082544.042183d0@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: dgoodspe@excite.com From: mike shand Subject: RE: FW: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-00.txt Cc: jparker@axiowave.com, isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: <20020613195021.6DFE43E0A@xmxpita.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:33:31 +0100 At 15:50 13/06/2002 -0400, Don Goodspeed wrote: >3. Also in section 6.1, the second sentence reads: > "When an LSP has been in the network for RemainingLifeTime, it is >removed ..." >Should this be: > "... in the network for RemainingLifeTime without being regenerated >..." ? This is a classic case of an attempt to give a simple description which glosses over some of the detail. Neither statement is without its problems. It all depends on what is meant by "an LSP". DO we mean a single instance of the LSP with a particular sequence number, or do we envisage that the same "LSP" exists for ever, but with different sequence numbers. IN any case, it is not quite right to say when it has been in the network for RemainingLifeTime, since RemainingLifeTime is a monotonically decreasing value. What we really mean is when an LSP with a particular sequence number has been in the network for a period of time such that the RemainingLifetime value has been decreased to zero (since it isn't really an exact period of time, since it is required to decrement remainingLiftime at each forwarding). Even that isn't correct, since it doean't actually get deleted at that point. We wait another minute, or even another maxage. However, this is all somewhat irrelevant and overkill in the context. We don't want to end up re-writing the complete description of what happens. Mike _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 20:12:28 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24177 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6ANmYt11200; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5EFLHt88092 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'dgoodspe@excite.com'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: RE: FW: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:39:55 -0400 Don - Thanks for the suggestions. I have updated my copy of the document (too large to send to this list as is) and I've included the significant diffs below. Most of the meat is in the first two differences, where we discuss the Attach Flag, and the chunk where we discuss MaxAge and maxLSPGen. The current context of those sections appears next. The rest of the mail includes edits to make references to 10589 uniform (briefly, the first citation in a section gets a footnote, and I've tried to catch all references to 'protocol' and [1]), and ends with Don's original note. The order of the remaining diffs is arbitrary. Other, smaller, changes (date, acks, spelling) are surpressed. Enough changes have accumulated to warrant a fresh spin, but I'll wait to hear reaction to the first two paragraphs below. - jeff parker ///////// Significant Diffs /////////////////// 21,28c21,31 < Each LSP contains a RemainingLifeTime field which is < set to the MaxAge of the generating IS. < When an LSP has been in < the network for RemainingLifeTime, it is removed, ensuring that < corrupted or otherwise invalid LSPs do not remain in the network < for too long. < The rate at which LSPs are regenerated is determined by the value < of maximumLSPGenerationInterval. --- > Each LSP contains a RemainingLifetime field which is > initially set to the MaxAge value on the generating IS. > The value stored in this field is decremented to mark the > passage of time and the number of times it has been forwarded. > When the value of a foreign LSP becomes 0, an IS initiates > a aging and purging process which will flush the LSP from the > network. > This ensures that that corrupted or otherwise invalid > LSPs do not remain in the network indefinitely. > The rate at which LSPs are regenerated by the originating IS > is determined by the value of maximumLSPGenerationInterval. 10,12c10,13 < Some implementations allow the attachedFlag to be set < on Intermediate Systems routing IP traffic under restricted conditions, < such as the existence of a default route in the local routing table. --- > Some implementations also allow the attachedFlag to be set > on Intermediate Systems routing IP traffic when there > is a default route in the local routing table, or when > some other state is reached that implies a connection > to the rest of the network. ///// Context /////////////// 6.1 MaxAge Each LSP contains a RemainingLifetime field which is initially set to the MaxAge value on the generating IS. The value stored in this field is decremented to mark the passage of time and the number of times it has been forwarded. When the value of a foreign LSP becomes 0, an IS initiates a aging and purging process which will flush the LSP from the network. This ensures that that corrupted or otherwise invalid LSPs do not remain in the network indefinitely. The rate at which LSPs are regenerated by the originating IS is determined by the value of maximumLSPGenerationInterval. MaxAge is defined in ISO 10589 as an Architectural constant of 20 minutes, and it is recommended that maximumLSPGenerationInterval be set to 15 minutes. These times have proven to be too short in some networks, as they result in a steady flow of LSP updates even when nothing is changing. To reduce the rate of generation, some implemen- tations allow these times to be set by the network operator. ... 14. The Attached Bit In section 7.2.9.2 of ISO 10589 [1], an algorithm is described to determining when the attachedFlag should be set on an intermediate system. Some implementations also allow the attachedFlag to be set on Intermediate Systems routing IP traffic when there is a default route in the local routing table, when some other state is reached that implies a connection to the rest of the network. /////////////// What Protocol Is this? ISO 10589 Citations /////////////// 21c21 < ISO 10589 requires that all Intermediate Systems in an area or domain --- > ISO 10589 [1] requires that all Intermediate Systems in an area or domain 36c36 < ISO [1] defines the notification maximumAreaAddressMismatch, --- > ISO 10589 defines the notification maximumAreaAddressMismatch, 7c7 < While ISO [1] requires in section 7.3.14.2 e) that any LSP --- > While ISO 10589 [1] requires in section 7.3.14.2 e) that any LSP 26c26 < The protocol provides the architectural constant ReceiveLSPBufferSize --- > ISO 10589 [1] defines the architectural constant ReceiveLSPBufferSize 30,32c30,32 < The originating buffer < size parameters define the maximum size of an LSP that a router < can generate. The protocol directs the implementor to treat a PDU --- > The originating buffer size parameters define the maximum size of > an LSP that a router can generate. > ISO 10589 directs the implementor to treat a PDU 7,8c7,8 < Some parameters to the protocol were defined as variable, < but do not vary in practice. These include --- > Some that were defined as variables in ISO 10589 [1] > do not vary in practice. These include 44,45c44,46 < ISO [1] defines the notification iDFieldLengthMismatch, < while the ISIS MIB [9] defines the notificationeisisIDLenMismatch. --- > ISO 10589 [1] defines the notification iDFieldLengthMismatch, > while the ISIS MIB [9] defines the notification > isisIDLenMismatch. 8c8,9 < security concerns, as there is no change in the underlying protocol. --- > security concerns, as there is no change in the underlying protocol > described in ISO 10589 [1] and RFC 1195 [3]. 7c7 < Some features defined in [1] and [3] are not in current use. --- > Some features defined in ISO 10589 [1] and RFC 1195 [3] are not in current use. 35c35,36 < Section 7.2.2, ISO [1] describes four metrics: Default Metric, Delay Metric, --- > Section 7.2.2, ISO 10589 [1] describes four metrics: > Default Metric, Delay Metric, 39c40 < In ISO, the most significant bit of the 8 bit metrics was --- > In ISO 10589, the most significant bit of the 8 bit metrics was 41c44 < is discussed in section 7.3.21 of [1]. --- > is discussed in section 7.3.21 of ISO 10589. 7,8c7,8 < Some parameters to the protocol were defined as constants, < but are modified in practice. These include the following --- > Some parameters that were defined as constant in ISO 10589 [1] > are modified in practice. These include the following 32c32,33 < section 8.2.4 [1]. However, in an IP Only environment, --- > section 8.2.4 of ISO 10589 [1]. > However, in an IP Only environment, 7c7 < In [1] 7.2.9.2, an algorithm is described to --- > In section 7.2.9.2 of ISO 10589 [1], an algorithm is described to 7c7 < In section 8.2.4.2, ISO [1] does not explicitly require comparison --- > In section 8.2.4.2, ISO 10589 [1] does not explicitly require comparison 115c115 < The original design of IS-IS, as described in [1] has proved --- > The original design of IS-IS, as described in ISO 10589 [1] has proved 17c17 < Given that IIH PDUs as specified in ISO[1] do not include a checksum, --- > Given that IIH PDUs as specified in ISO 10589 do not include a checksum, 119c119 < protocol as described in [1] and [3] and the protocol --- > protocol as described in ISO 10589 and RFC 1195 [3] and the protocol 17c17 < ISO [1] defines ISISHoldingMultiplier to be 10, --- > ISO 10589 [1] defines ISISHoldingMultiplier to be 10, > Jeff, > > Just had a chance to pore over the draft and I've got a few comments > (hope my word wrapping comes out OK): > > 1. Because of the different authors, the footnote references are > inconsistent. Some sections use just the reference "In [1]", while > others use "in ISO [1]", while other make no reference to the footnote > "in ISO 10589", some are just "in ISO", while in some, there is no > reference when there should be "such-and-such is defined as a > constant." (should be ...as a constant in [1]). Other place say > "The protocol". > > I can either cc the WG with the list or send it directly to you. > > 2. In section 6.1 MaxAge, in the first line "which is set to the > MaxAge of the generating IS", should this be: > "which is initially set to the MaxAge value on the generating IS" ? > > 3. Also in section 6.1, the second sentence reads: > "When an LSP has been in the network for RemainingLifeTime, it is > removed ..." > Should this be: > "... in the network for RemainingLifeTime without being regenerated > ..." ? > > 4. In section 7.1 ID Length, the last sentence needs a space between > notification and isisIDLenMismatch. > > 5. In section 8.3 Alternative Metrics, there should be blank line > after the quote from the ISO doc. > > 6. In section 14 The Attached Bit, in the 2nd sentence: > "Some implementations allow the attachedFlag to be set on (ISs) > routing IP traffic under restricted conditions, such as ..." > did we mean to say "only be set ... under restricted conditions" > or "can additionally be set" ? > > Thanks, > Don _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 20:27:02 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24474 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6B04Yt11347; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:04:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from hotmail.com (f141.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.141]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5EHiPt88711 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:44:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:03:10 -0700 Received: from 63.104.212.252 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:03:09 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.104.212.252] From: "Kent Wong" To: mshand@cisco.com, isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, wongkent@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2002 18:03:10.0284 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE5DD8C0:01C213CD] Subject: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:03:09 +0000 Hi Mike, I have sent the following questions and comments for the isis restart draft on the ISIS mailing list a couple times but it never got through. So I am resending to your account directly in addition to the isis-wg account. Thanks! 1. On Page 6 "....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs (containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will fail anyway. 2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. 3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. 4. Along the same line of thought, there is no need for a separate T2 and T3. Because when T2 expires/cancels before T3, T3 should be cancelled anyway. The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is when T3 expires before T2. The draft states that "If the timer T3 expires before all the T2 timers have expired, this indicates that the synchronization process is taking longer than minimum holding time of the neighbors. The router's own LSP(s) for levels which have not yet completed their first SPF computation are then flooded with the overload bit set to indicate that the router's LSPDB is not yet synchronized (and other routers should therefore not compute routes through this router)." However this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. What if T3 expires even before it acquires its pre-start LSP? In that case, it doesn't know what sequence number it should use in its zero LSP to set the OL bit. If the seq num it uses is smaller than the seq num in its nbr's DB, then the zero LSP will be ignored by nbr anyway. So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer and set the timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbr. If the timer expires before it DB re-sync, then graceful restart fails and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much more simpler and effective? 5. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behavior of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behavior even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 6. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, sometimes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpret the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! ---Kent Wong _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 20:28:23 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24526 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6B05jt11434; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:05:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from hotmail.com (f179.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.179]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5I0Ljt14458 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:21:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:40:51 -0700 Received: from 63.104.212.252 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 00:40:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.104.212.252] From: "Kent Wong" To: wongkent@hotmail.com, isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2002 00:40:51.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC07F420:01C21660] Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt [continued] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 00:40:50 +0000 Hi, Some more questions on the draft: 4. I don't understand why there is a need for two different timers T2 and T3. Because when T2 expires/cancels before T3, T3 should be cancelled anyway. The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is when T3 expires before T2. The draft states that if T3 expires before T2, router's own LSP for level which have not completed their first SPF should be flooded with the OL bit set. However this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. What if T3 expires even before it acquires its pre-start LSP? In that case, it doesn't know what sequence number it should use in its zero LSP to set the OL bit. If the seq num it uses is smaller than the seq num in its nbr's DB, then the zero LSP will be ignored by the helper nbr anyway. So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer and set the timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbrs. If the timer expires before it DB re-sync, then graceful restart fails and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much more simpler and effective? 5. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behavior of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behavior even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 6. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, sometimes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpret the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! Kent Wong _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 20:43:14 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24838 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6B0Klt11715; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5I9ZHt17056 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 02:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mshand@cisco.com) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (lon-sto4-lan-vlan133-dhcp30.cisco.com [144.254.108.97]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19842; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:54:22 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020618102504.04395e78@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Kent Wong" From: mike shand Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:29:48 +0100 At 22:25 17/06/2002 +0000, Kent Wong wrote: >Hi, > >I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: > >1. On Page 6 >"....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs >(containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the >initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been >achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors >adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of >the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." > >When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new >holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time >for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP >with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will >fail anyway. Yes. That was the assumption. Sorry that wasn't made clear. >2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, >would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, >a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router >going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting >router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there >is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. Yes that is possible too. My take on this is that the protocol mechanisms described in the spec can be used in a variety of creative ways which do not necessarily need to be spelled out in the draft because they do not require explicit co-operation. This is an example of such a mechanism. >3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of >database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel >T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. Yes. >Thanks. > >Kent Wong > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 20:59:37 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25204 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6B0aZt11883; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from cisco.com (uzura.cisco.com [64.102.17.77]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5IAe4t17826 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 03:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ruwhite@cisco.com) Received: from ruwhite-u10.cisco.com (ruwhite-u10.cisco.com [64.102.48.251]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21790; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:59:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ White Reply-To: Russ White To: Kent Wong cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:59:10 -0400 (EDT) > 1. On Page 6 > "....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs > (containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the > initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been > achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors > adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of > the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." > > When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new > holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time > for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP > with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will > fail anyway. Yes, that seems logical. > 2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, > would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, > a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router > going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting > router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there > is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. You could do this, though there's no reason to specify it, I don't think (?). > 3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of > database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel > T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. Yes, this should be correct. :-) Russ __________________________________ riw@cisco.com CCIE <>< Grace Alone _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Wed Jul 10 21:00:12 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA25229 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6B0bpt11945; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from hotmail.com (f171.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.171]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5IIKWt19845 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:39:42 -0700 Received: from 63.104.212.252 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:39:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.104.212.252] From: "Kent Wong" To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, mshand@cisco.com, riw@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2002 18:39:42.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[82B7EC20:01C216F7] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:39:42 +0000 Hi Mike and Russ, Thanks for your reply. I have a couple more comments on the draft: 4. I don't understand why there is a need for two different timers T2 and T3. Because when T2 expires/cancels before T3, T3 would be cancelled anyway. The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is when T3 expires before T2. The draft states that if T3 expires before T2, router's own LSP for level which have not completed their first SPF should be flooded with the OL bit set. However this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. What if T3 expires even before it acquires its pre-start LSP? In that case, it doesn't know what sequence number it should use in its zero LSP to set the OL bit. If the seq num it uses is smaller than the seq num in its nbr's DB, then the zero LSP will be ignored by the helper nbr anyway. So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer and set the timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbrs. If the timer expires before it DB re-sync, then graceful restart fails and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much more simpler and effective? 5. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behavior of a router when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to change the normal ISIS behavior even though it is not a restart? That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. 6. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, sometimes it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply mention "own" LSP. Should we interpret the "own" LSP as including pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Thanks! Kent Wong >From: mike shand >To: "Kent Wong" >CC: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:29:48 +0100 > >At 22:25 17/06/2002 +0000, Kent Wong wrote: >>Hi, >> >>I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: >> >>1. On Page 6 >>"....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs >>(containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the >>initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been >>achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors >>adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of >>the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." >> >>When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new >>holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time >>for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP >>with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will >>fail anyway. > >Yes. That was the assumption. Sorry that wasn't made clear. > > >>2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, >>would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, >>a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router >>going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting >>router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there >>is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. > >Yes that is possible too. My take on this is that the protocol mechanisms >described in the spec can be used in a variety of creative ways which do >not necessarily need to be spelled out in the draft because they do not >require explicit co-operation. This is an example of such a mechanism. > > >>3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of >>database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel >>T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. > >Yes. > >>Thanks. >> >>Kent Wong >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >>http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Thu Jul 11 10:37:42 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19259 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6BEF1t16647; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6BE4Et16589 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: Philip Christian Cc: Isis Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by external.juniper.net id g6BE4Et16590 Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:25:27 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Philip - Private mail. I think Ran's final point is actually quite helpful. I'd be happy to review a new version of this, or to suggest one, if you drop me a line the next three hours. (I'm headed on vacation) - jeff parker > On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, at 08:33 , Philip Christian wrote: > > 5. Security Considerations > >   > >    The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS.  > > Excuse me, but I don't think so. I think that it > raises new security > issues because different vendors might use it in > different ways. In > a multi-vendor environment there could be unintended > consequences > where A sends something with the new TLV that is syntactically > valid with a different box B, but has unrelated semantics. > > Even if I'm confused, it is customary to outline *why* > one thinks > that no new security issues are raised, rather than making the > assertion without supporting explanatory text. > > >    Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, > > You've not defined "secure". For "secure" == "authentic", > then the IS-IS MD5 authentication can provide some security. > If by "secure" you mean that "confidentiality" is provided, > then please talk in terms of "confidentiality" rather than > the vague term "secure". > > > and > >    so if security is required then an implementation will need to > >    encrypt the information using a suitable method. > > This also seems wrong. I'd suggest re-writing the whole section > and in the re-write not using the word "secure" anyplace, > instead using words like "integrity", "authentication", and/or > "confidentiality" so that one's meaning is more crisp and clear. > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net > http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Thu Jul 11 11:27:47 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21072 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6BF51t16937; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6BF3et16914 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6BFPfxR011983; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-509.cisco.com [10.82.225.253]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW64752; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711111635.01ec1e50@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: RJ Atkinson From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , Isis (E-mail) In-Reply-To: <213ACF92-7F10-11D6-B00E-00039357A82A@extremenetworks.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB710@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:22:13 -0400 At 04:57 PM 6/13/2002, RJ Atkinson wrote: >On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, at 08:33 , Philip Christian wrote: >>5. Security Considerations >> >> The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. > > Excuse me, but I don't think so. I think that it raises new security > issues because different vendors might use it in different ways. That would be using it incorrectly. Only one authority can define the syntax and semantics for a given OID. If an implementation misinterprets this information, that implementation is broken. I agree with Philip that no NEW security issues arise from this RFC. However, security issues may arise from a particular USE of this feature. It is up to the designers of USES of this feature to address any security issues that are raised by that application. Regards, Jeff > In > a multi-vendor environment there could be unintended consequences > where A sends something with the new TLV that is syntactically > valid with a different box B, but has unrelated semantics. > > Even if I'm confused, it is customary to outline *why* one thinks > that no new security issues are raised, rather than making the > assertion without supporting explanatory text. > >> Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, > > You've not defined "secure". For "secure" == "authentic", > then the IS-IS MD5 authentication can provide some security. > If by "secure" you mean that "confidentiality" is provided, > then please talk in terms of "confidentiality" rather than > the vague term "secure". > >>and >> so if security is required then an implementation will need to >> encrypt the information using a suitable method. > > This also seems wrong. I'd suggest re-writing the whole section > and in the re-write not using the word "secure" anyplace, > instead using words like "integrity", "authentication", and/or > "confidentiality" so that one's meaning is more crisp and clear. > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Thu Jul 11 11:28:25 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21115 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6BF66t16961; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6BF3gt16919 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlearman@cisco.com) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6BFPZMU011962; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-509.cisco.com [10.82.225.253]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW64754; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711112227.01ee3ee8@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: mike shand From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , "'Tony Przygienda'" , isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Mike Truskowski'" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020611154537.025ce140@jaws.cisco.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB70D@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10685274==_.ALT" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:24:55 -0400 --=====================_10685274==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:55 AM 6/11/2002, mike shand wrote: >At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >>On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that >> include an OUI from a different organization, I pointed this out before, and Philip agreed, but seems to have forgotten it. Philip, please look for my email and any other items on it you omitted. This should say "a router MUST ignore TLVs with unrecognized OUIs." It has nothing to do with proprietorship of the OUI, only the interpretation. Or is this another old email storm? ;-) Jeff >MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you know how to parse company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so. > >I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs with G or L bits set. > > Mike > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg --=====================_10685274==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 10:55 AM 6/11/2002, mike shand wrote:
At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that
   include an OUI from a different organization,


I pointed this out before, and Philip agreed, but seems to have forgotten
it.  Philip, please look for my email and any other items on it you
omitted.

This should say "a router MUST ignore TLVs with unrecognized OUIs."
It has nothing to do with proprietorship of the OUI, only the
interpretation.

Or is this another old email storm? ;-)

Jeff


MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you know how to parse company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so.

I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs with G or L bits set.

        Mike

_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list  -  Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net
http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
--=====================_10685274==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 11:43:56 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21757 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15878; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15840 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21196 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6BFUmpj012502; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-509.cisco.com [10.82.225.253]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW64886; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711112645.01ed5ec0@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:30:10 -0400 To: "Philip Christian" From: Jeff Learman Subject: Fwd: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org, mike shand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10998434==_.ALT" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --=====================_10998434==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Philip, here is the previous email I was referring to. >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:27:38 -0400 >To: "Philip Christian" >From: Jeff Learman >Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Tony Przygienda'" , "'Mike Truskowski'" , "'mike shand'" > > >Minor comments below. > >At 08:33 AM 6/12/2002, Philip Christian wrote: > >>I have done an update, see below >> >>Philip >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: mike shand [mailto:mshand@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:56 PM >>> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >>> Cc: 'Tony Przygienda'; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; 'Mike Truskowski' >>> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >>> >>> >>> At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >>> >On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that >>> > include an OUI from a different organization, >>> >>> MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you >>> know how to parse >>> company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so. >>> >>> I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs >>> with G or L >>> bits set. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >> >>Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian >>INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks >> June 2002 >> >> >> TLV for Proprietary Use >> draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist2.txt >> >>Status of this Memo >> >> This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with >> all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. >> >> Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering >> Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that >> other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet >> Drafts. >> >> Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six >> months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by >> other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet >> Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a >> "working draft" or "work in progress". >> >> The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at >> http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt >> >> The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at >> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. >> >> This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo >> does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. >> >> Distribution of this draft is unlimited. >> >> >>1. Abstract >> >> This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or >> experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines >> the format of the TLV. >> >> >>2. Conventions used in this document >> >> The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", >> "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in >> this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 >> >>3. Introduction >> >> IS-IS as defined in [1] has always been an extensible routing >> protocol. Extensions to IS-IS are encoded as a TLV. Critically [1] >> has always defined that an IS-IS router SHALL flood entire LSPs that >> it receives on to other IS-IS routers in the network, whether or not >> it understands the TLVs that are included in the LSP. Also IS-IS >> LSPs are structured such that a router can find TLVs that it >> understands, whilst ignoring ones that it does not. >> >> Thus information that is encoded into a TLV and placed into an LSP >> by a router will be propagated to every other router in an IS-IS >> level-1 area or level-2 subdomain. >> >> The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte >> of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. >> Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a >> single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. >> >> No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known > >use semicolon instead of comma above > >> TLV type numbers at this time. Also no TLV type number was ever >> defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. >> >> The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for >> proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central >> authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally >> simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that >> such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at >> a later time for a different function, thus creating an >> interoperability problem. Also this accelerates the burning of the > >"depletion" rather than "burning". > >> 256 possible TLV type numbers. >> >> This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for >> proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that >> insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV >> for different purposes in the same network without creating >> interoperability problems. >> >> By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may >> use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems >> with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of >> TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. >> >>4. TLV type number for proprietary use >> >> The type field for this TLV SHALL be XXX. >> >> TLVs that use XXX for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE >> assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. >> For more information about OUIs see [3]. >> >> >> >> TLV for Proprietary Use June 2002 >> >> On receipt of an LSP a router MAY ignore TLVs of type XXX that >> include an OUI from a different organization, however the router > >"unrecognized OUI" rather than "different organization". And I think >"MAY" should be "MUST", but I won't quibble. > >> MUST flood the LSP onwards as per [1]. >> >> After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may >> be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is >> conformant with [1]. > >I would say "The format of the remainder of the TLV would be defined >by the identified organization, and MUST be conformant with [1]." > >> >> Many organizations will have access to only one or a few OUIs. >> Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into >> sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be >> well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if sub-TLVs are >> to be used then the very first implementation to exist will need to >> recognize the sub-TLV structure, and ignore sub-TLVs that it does >> not understand whilst searching for sub-TLVs that it does >> understand. > >This is one way. Another way would be to use EUI48 or EUI64 numbers >as type codes, especially for large organizations to allow hierarchical >assignment of type codes. EUI numbers start with the OUI, and the >remainder is allocated by the organization owning the OUI. Admittedly, >this doesn't allow as optimized use of a switch statement as sub-TLVs >would. > >Regards, >Jeff > >> 5. Security Considerations >> >> The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. >> Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, and >> so if security is required then an implementation will need to >> encrypt the information using a suitable method. >> >>6. References >> >> [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing >> information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the >> Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO >> 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. >> >> [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV >> Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 >> >> [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html >> >>7. Acknowledgments >> >> The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was >> discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became >> an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly >> received. >> >>8. Author's Addresses >> >> Philip Christian >> Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories >> London Road, Harlow, >> Essex, CM17 9NA UK >> >> Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com --=====================_10998434==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Philip, here is the previous email I was referring to.

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:27:38 -0400
To: "Philip Christian" <christi@nortelnetworks.com>
From: Jeff Learman <jlearman@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net, "'Tony Przygienda'" <prz@net4u.ch>, "'Mike Truskowski'" <truskows@cisco.com>, "'mike shand'" <mshand@cisco.com>


Minor comments below.

At 08:33 AM 6/12/2002, Philip Christian wrote:

I have done an update, see below

Philip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mike shand [mailto:mshand@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:56 PM
> To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
> Cc: 'Tony Przygienda'; isis-wg@spider.juniper.net; 'Mike Truskowski'
> Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
>
>
> At 15:38 11/06/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote:
> >On receipt of an LSP a router MUST ignore TLVs of type XXX that
> >    include an OUI from a different organization,
>
> MUST is a bit strong here. SHOULD or MAY, perhaps. If you
> know how to parse
> company X's subTLVs you should be allowed to do so.
>
> I'm not sure we want to get into mentioning non-standard OUIs
> with G or L
> bits set.
>
>          Mike
>
>

Internet Engineering Task Force                            P. Christian
INTERNET DRAFT                                          Nortel Networks
                                                              June 2002
 
 
                          TLV for Proprietary Use
                     draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist2.txt
 
Status of this Memo
 
   This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with
   all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026.
   
   Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet
   Drafts.
   
   Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six
   months.  Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by
   other documents at any time.  It is not appropriate to use Internet
   Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a
   "working draft" or "work in progress".
   
   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt
   
   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.
   
   This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo
   does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. 
   
   Distribution of this draft is unlimited.
   
   
1. Abstract
   
   This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or
   experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines
   the format of the TLV.
   
   
2. Conventions used in this document
   
   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in
   this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
   




 
                       TLV for Proprietary Use               June 2002 
 
3. Introduction
   
   IS-IS as defined in [1] has always been an extensible routing
   protocol.  Extensions to IS-IS are encoded as a TLV.  Critically [1]
   has always defined that an IS-IS router SHALL flood entire LSPs that
   it receives on to other IS-IS routers in the network, whether or not
   it understands the TLVs that are included in the LSP.  Also IS-IS
   LSPs are structured such that a router can find TLVs that it
   understands, whilst ignoring ones that it does not.
   
   Thus information that is encoded into a TLV and placed into an LSP
   by a router will be propagated to every other router in an IS-IS
   level-1 area or level-2 subdomain.
   
   The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte
   of the TLV.  Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. 
   Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a
   single TLV type can be used for multiple functions.
   
   No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known

use semicolon instead of comma above

   TLV type numbers at this time.  Also no TLV type number was ever
   defined for private, proprietary or experimental use.
   
   The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for
   proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central
   authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally
   simply chosen a number and hoped for the best.  The risk is that
   such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at
   a later time for a different function, thus creating an
   interoperability problem. Also this accelerates the burning of the

"depletion" rather than "burning".

   256 possible TLV type numbers.
   
   This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for
   proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that
   insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV
   for different purposes in the same network without creating
   interoperability problems.
   
   By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may
   use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems
   with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of
   TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use.
   
4. TLV type number for proprietary use
   
   The type field for this TLV SHALL be XXX.
   
   TLVs that use XXX for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE
   assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. 
   For more information about OUIs see [3].
   

 
                       TLV for Proprietary Use               June 2002 
 
   On receipt of an LSP a router MAY ignore TLVs of type XXX that
   include an OUI from a different organization, however the router

"unrecognized OUI" rather than "different organization".  And I think
"MAY" should be "MUST", but I won't quibble.

   MUST flood the LSP onwards as per [1].
 
   After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may
   be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is
   conformant with [1].

I would say "The format of the remainder of the TLV would be defined
by the identified organization, and MUST be conformant with [1]."

   
   Many organizations will have access to only one or a few OUIs. 
   Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into
   sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be
   well advised to do this from the outset.  Note that if sub-TLVs are
   to be used then the very first implementation to exist will need to
   recognize the sub-TLV structure, and ignore sub-TLVs that it does
   not understand whilst searching for sub-TLVs that it does
   understand.

This is one way.  Another way would be to use EUI48 or EUI64 numbers
as type codes, especially for large organizations to allow hierarchical
assignment of type codes.  EUI numbers start with the OUI, and the
remainder is allocated by the organization owning the OUI.  Admittedly,
this doesn't allow as optimized use of a switch statement as sub-TLVs
would.

Regards,
Jeff

    5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. 
   Information placed in an IS-IS TLV cannot be considered secure, and
   so if security is required then an implementation will need to
   encrypt the information using a suitable method.
   
6. References
   
   [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing
   information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the
   Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO
   8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992.
   
   [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV
   Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001
   
   [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html
   
7. Acknowledgments
   
   The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was
   discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became
   an active participant.  Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly
   received.
   
8. Author's Addresses
   
   Philip Christian
   Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories
   London Road, Harlow,
   Essex, CM17 9NA UK
   
   Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com
--=====================_10998434==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 12:34:51 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24390 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22464; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22424 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA23519 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6BGK5922603; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:20:05 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1JX21>; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:20:06 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB76E@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: isis-wg@ietf.org Cc: mike shand , "'Jeff Learman'" Subject: RE: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:20:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C228F6.CFA17108" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C228F6.CFA17108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On the 4th of July I sent out an update. I am coming to the conclusion that no-one got it, sigh.... On top of that for every comment I have to figure out whether it is a new one, or whether it is an old one that the old list server is still shooting at me. Please can someone just kill the old server... Anyway here is the one that I sent on the 4th. Some of the comments that people have sent will be addressed, and others won't. It represents the state of play in my mind from seven days ago. One thing that I changed was the security section, thought Jeff's new point is helpful too. My apologies if things are not addressed. If so then it is due to my confused state caused by old mails flying about. Thanks, Philip Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian, INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks July 2002 TLV for Proprietary Use draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt Status of this Memo This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet Drafts. Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a "working draft" or "work in progress". The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this draft is unlimited. 1. Abstract This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines the format of the TLV. 2. Conventions used in this document The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. Christian Expires January 2003 1 TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 3. Introduction TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets (PDUs). When added to IS-IS LSPs they are flooded throughout an IS-IS level-1 area or level-2 subdomain, and when added to IS-IS Hello PDUs they are are present only on a specific interface of an IS-IS router. The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined in ISO 10589 [1]. The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known TLV type numbers at this time. No TLV type number has ever been defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at a later time for a different function, thus creating an interoperability problem. Such use also accelerates the consumption of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV for different purposes in the same network without creating interoperability problems. By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. 4. TLV type number for proprietary use The type field for this TLV SHALL be 250. TLVs that use 250 for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. OUIs are three byte unique numbers that may be purchased from the IEEE and which are used for several purposes. Typically the first three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI for example. By buying an an OUI a vendor has effectively bought a block of sixteen million MAC addresses, and so most vendors already have an OUI that may also be used for proprietary TLVs as per this document. For more information about OUIs see [3]. Christian Expires January 2003 2 TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the first byte set in vendor implementations. This bit is ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion of MAC addresses to mean "locally administered", and is reserved for locally administered (experimental) values in this TLV, e.g., for academic purposes. The TLV of type 250 may be used in IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs. On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST ignore TLVs of type 250 that include an OUI that is not recognised, however the router MUST flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if they include unrecognised proprietary TLVs. After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is conformant with [1]. Organisations will have access only to a finite number of OUIs. The IEEE reserves the right to not assign more OUIs to organisations that already have them. For more information see [3]. Therefore implementors would be well advised to think about defining a format whereby one OUI can be used for multiple types of proprietary TLV. Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if sub-TLVs are to be used then the very first and all subsequent implementations that use that OUI will need to recognize the sub-TLV structure, and ignore sub-TLVs that it does not understand whilst searching for sub-TLVs that it does understand. 5. Security Considerations The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain, and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be visible outside of an operator's network. However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not secure either. 6. References [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 Christian Expires January 2003 3 TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html 7. Acknowledgments The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly received. 8. Author's Addresses Philip Christian Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA UK Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com Christian Expires January 2003 4 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C228F6.CFA17108 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

On the 4th of July I sent out an update.  I am = coming to the conclusion that no-one got it,  sigh....
On top of that for every comment I have to figure = out whether it is a new one, or whether it is an old one that the old = list server is still shooting at me.

Please can someone just kill the old server...

Anyway here is the one that I sent on the 4th.

Some of the comments that people have sent will be = addressed, and others won't.  It represents the state of play in = my mind from seven days ago.

One thing that I changed was the security section, = thought Jeff's new point is helpful too.

My apologies if things are not addressed.  If so = then it is due to my confused state caused by old mails flying = about.

Thanks, Philip

Internet Engineering Task = Force           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;   P. Christian,
INTERNET = DRAFT           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;      Nortel Networks
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   July 2002
 
 
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;   TLV for Proprietary Use
          &nb= sp;          = draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt
 
Status of this Memo
 
   This document is an Internet-Draft and = is in full conformance with
   all provisions of Section 10 of RFC = 2026.
   
   Internet Drafts are working documents = of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its = Working Groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute = working documents as Internet
   Drafts.
   
   Internet Drafts are draft documents = valid for a maximum of six
   months.  Internet Drafts may be = updated, replaced, or obsoleted by
   other documents at any time.  It = is not appropriate to use Internet
   Drafts as reference material or to cite = them other than as a
   "working draft" or "work = in progress".
   
   The list of current Internet-Drafts can = be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt =
   
   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow = Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.
   
   This memo provides information for the = Internet community. This memo
   does not specify an Internet standard = of any kind. 
   
   Distribution of this draft is = unlimited.
   
   
1. Abstract
   
   This document defines a TLV that may be = used for vendor specific or
   experimental extensions to the IS-IS = routing protocol, and defines
   the format of the TLV.
   
   
2. Conventions used in this document
   
   The key words "MUST", = "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", = "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD = NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and = "OPTIONAL" in
   this document are to be interpreted as = described in RFC 2119.
   







Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 1
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;    July 2002
 
3. Introduction
   
   TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets = (PDUs).  When added to IS-IS
   LSPs they are flooded throughout an = IS-IS level-1 area or level-2
   subdomain, and when added to IS-IS = Hello PDUs they are are present
   only on a specific interface of an = IS-IS router.

   The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined = in ISO 10589 [1].
   
   The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is = identified by the first byte
   of the TLV.  Thus there are only = 256 possible basic types of TLV. 
   Certain types of TLV have been defined = to include sub-TLVs so that a
   single TLV type can be used for = multiple functions.
   
   No single authority assigns TLV type = numbers, [2] lists all known
   TLV type numbers at this time.  No = TLV type number has ever been
   defined for private, proprietary or = experimental use.
   
   The extensible nature of IS-IS has made = the use of TLVs in LSPs for
   proprietary purposes so useful that in = the absence of a central
   authority for assigning TLV type = numbers vendors have occasionally
   simply chosen a number and hoped for = the best.  The risk is that
   such a TLV type number may then be = chosen by another organization at
   a later time for a different function, = thus creating an
   interoperability problem.  Such = use also accelerates the consumption
   of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. =
   
   This document specifies a TLV type = number that may be used for
   proprietary, private or experimental = purposes, and a mechanism that
   insures that implementations from = different sources can use the TLV
   for different purposes in the same = network without creating
   interoperability problems.
   
   By using this new TLV, companies, = individuals or institutions may
   use extensions to IS-IS without fear of = interoperability problems
   with other organizations in the future, = and the available pool of
   TLV type numbers will no longer be = diminished by proprietary use.
   
4. TLV type number for proprietary use
   
   The type field for this TLV SHALL be = 250.
   
   TLVs that use 250 for the type field = MUST include a valid IEEE
   assigned OUI as the first three bytes = of the value field of the TLV.

   OUIs are three byte unique numbers that = may be purchased from the
   IEEE and which are used for several = purposes.  Typically the first
   three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI = for example.  By buying an
   an OUI a vendor has effectively bought = a block of sixteen million
   MAC addresses, and so most vendors = already have an OUI that may
   also be used for proprietary TLVs as = per this document.

   For more information about OUIs see [3]. =
  

Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 2
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;    July 2002

   The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the = first byte set in vendor
   implementations.  This bit is = ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion
   of MAC addresses to mean "locally = administered", and is reserved for
   locally administered (experimental) = values in this TLV, e.g., for
   academic purposes.
 
   The TLV of type 250 may be used in = IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs.

   On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST = ignore TLVs of type 250
   that include an OUI that is not = recognised, however the router MUST
   flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if = they include unrecognised
   proprietary TLVs.
 
   After the first three bytes of the = value field subsequent bytes may
   be used freely for any purpose provided = that the resultant TLV is
   conformant with [1].
   
   Organisations will have access only to = a finite number of OUIs. The
   IEEE reserves the right to not assign = more OUIs to organisations
   that already have them.  For more = information see [3].  Therefore
   implementors would be well advised to = think about defining a
   format whereby one OUI can be used for = multiple types of
   proprietary TLV.

   Implementers are free to format the = value field after their OUI into
   sub-TLVs so that it may be used for = multiple purposes, and would be
   well advised to do this from the = outset.  Note that if sub-TLVs are
   to be used then the very first and all = subsequent implementations
   that use that OUI will need to = recognize the sub-TLV structure, and
   ignore sub-TLVs that it does not = understand whilst searching for
   sub-TLVs that it does understand. =
   
5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new = security issues for IS-IS. 

   IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to = an operators routing domain,
   and so information placed in a = proprietary TLV will not normally be
   visible outside of an operator's = network.

   However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, = and so if a link over which
   an adjacency is maintained is not = secure, then any information
   contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a = proprietary TLV is not
   secure either.
   
6. References
   
   [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to = Intermediate system routeing
   information exchange protocol for use = in conjunction with the
   Protocol for providing the = Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO
   8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. =
   
   [2] = draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV
   Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, = November 2001
    
Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 3
          &nb= sp;            = TLV for Proprietary = Use           &nb= sp;    July 2002

   [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html

7. Acknowledgments
   
   The author takes no credit for this = work as the concept was
   discussed in the IS-IS Working Group = before the author even became
   an active participant.  = Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly
   received.
   
8. Author's Addresses
   
   Philip Christian
   Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories =
   London Road, Harlow,
   Essex, CM17 9NA UK
   
   Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com =






































Christian         =        Expires January = 2003           &n= bsp;           &n= bsp; 4

------_=_NextPart_001_01C228F6.CFA17108-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 13:09:06 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26033 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27689; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27653 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25380 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'christi@nortelnetworks.com'" Cc: "'rja@extremenetworks.com'" , "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" Subject: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:55:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Philip - Here is an attempt to reword things to address Ran's observations. I'm out the door, but you have the active support of the group to bang this into shape. Ran - I've used the term 'mischief' as a place holder. Can you suggest a better word to cover the threats that Virii and Trojan horses represent? - jeff parker 5. Security Considerations The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, while encryption could increase their confidentiality. The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting interpretations of such information by different implementations. This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information: it simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions. As such, it represents no new potential for mischief. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 13:37:28 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27139 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00596; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00554 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26586 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6BHOx900329; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:24:59 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1JYQ2>; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:25:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB772@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" , "'rja@extremenetworks.com'" Cc: "'Jeff Parker'" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Consider ati ons Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:24:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C228FF.E1806ABA" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C228FF.E1806ABA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maybe if we take Jeff's text and just change the last sentence then we get:- 5. Security Considerations The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described in draft-ietf-isis-hmac-03.txt can increase the integrity of TLVs, while encryption could increase their confidentiality. The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting interpretations of such information by different implementations. This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information; it simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions. As such, it represents no *new security issues for IS-IS*. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Parker [mailto:jparker@axiowave.com] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:55 PM To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Cc: 'rja@extremenetworks.com'; 'isis-wg@ietf.org' Subject: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Philip - Here is an attempt to reword things to address Ran's observations. I'm out the door, but you have the active support of the group to bang this into shape. Ran - I've used the term 'mischief' as a place holder. Can you suggest a better word to cover the threats that Virii and Trojan horses represent? - jeff parker 5. Security Considerations The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, while encryption could increase their confidentiality. The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting interpretations of such information by different implementations. This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information: it simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions. As such, it represents no new potential for mischief. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C228FF.E1806ABA Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons

Maybe if we take Jeff's text and just change the last sentence then we get:-

5. Security Considerations

   The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption,
   so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the
   routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets,
   CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they
   are sent to.  The addition of MD5 authentication, as described
   in draft-ietf-isis-hmac-03.txt can increase the integrity of TLVs,
   while encryption could increase their confidentiality. 

   The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed
   the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting
   interpretations of such information by different implementations. 
   This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information; it
   simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions.  As
   such, it represents no *new security issues for IS-IS*.

Philip 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Parker [mailto:jparker@axiowave.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:55 PM
To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Cc: 'rja@extremenetworks.com'; 'isis-wg@ietf.org'
Subject: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security
Considerati ons


Philip -
        Here is an attempt to reword things to address
Ran's observations.  I'm out the door, but you have
the active support of the group to bang this into shape. 

Ran -
        I've used the term 'mischief' as a place holder.
Can you suggest a better word to cover the threats that
Virii and Trojan horses represent?

- jeff parker

5. Security Considerations

   The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption,
   so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the
   routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets,
   CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they
   are sent to.  The addition of MD5 authentication, as described
   in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, while
   encryption could increase their confidentiality. 

   The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed
   the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting
   interpretations of such information by different implementations. 
   This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information: it
   simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions.  As
   such, it represents no new potential for mischief. 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C228FF.E1806ABA-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 14:07:47 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28817 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02899; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02860 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27616 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6BHl9J7025890; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW68906; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:46:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711124635.01fa56c8@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:18:06 -0400 To: "Philip Christian" From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB770@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19181461==_.ALT" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --=====================_19181461==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Philip, Looks great. I think we should consider adding one comment to this document. It's controversial, but this opinion has been raised before and maybe should be voiced. There is a danger to using ISIS as a generic transport mechanism for flooding information. LSPs get big, LSDBs get big, CPU time goes up, etc. For this reason, use of this mechanism in LSPs SHOULD be restricted to purposes that are important for routing, and an effort should be made to minimize the amount of information to be flooded. Updates to information flooded this way SHOULD be less frequent than link state and adjacency changes, to avoid causing unnecessary runs of SPF. This is putting it mildly. Some folks have said, with good reason, that use of this kind of feature should be strongly discouraged. No doubt some word-smithing is in order. Trivial edits below. At 12:36 PM 7/11/2002, you wrote: >Jeff, > >I have just realised that your comments now are important as by the time you get back I will have submitted it onto the Internet Drafts server thing. I intend to do this on the 15th or 16th. > >I hope that you can have a look before you go. There is actually enough info in here to implement, and so I'm sure that people actually will. > >Thanks, Philip > >Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian, >INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks > July 2002 > > > TLV for Proprietary Use > draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt > >Status of this Memo > > This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with > all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. > > Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering > Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that > other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet > Drafts. > > Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six > months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by > other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet > Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a > "working draft" or "work in progress". > > The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at > http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt > > The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. > > This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo > does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. > > Distribution of this draft is unlimited. > > >1. Abstract > > This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or > experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines > the format of the TLV. > > >2. Conventions used in this document > > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in > this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. > > > > > > > > >Christian Expires January 2003 1 > TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 > >3. Introduction > > TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets (PDUs). When added to IS-IS > LSPs they are flooded throughout an IS-IS level-1 area or level-2 > subdomain, and when added to IS-IS Hello PDUs they are are present > only on a specific interface of an IS-IS router. > > The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined in ISO 10589 [1]. > > The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte > of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. > Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a > single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. > > No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known semicolon instead of comma above. > TLV type numbers at this time. No TLV type number has ever been > defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. > > The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for > proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central > authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally > simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that > such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at > a later time for a different function, thus creating an > interoperability problem. Such use also accelerates the consumption > of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. > > This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for > proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that > insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV > for different purposes in the same network without creating > interoperability problems. > > By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may > use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems > with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of > TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. > >4. TLV type number for proprietary use > > The type field for this TLV SHALL be 250. > > TLVs that use 250 for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE > assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. > > OUIs are three byte unique numbers that may be purchased from the > IEEE and which are used for several purposes. Typically the first > three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI for example. By buying an > an OUI a vendor has effectively bought a block of sixteen million > MAC addresses, and so most vendors already have an OUI that may > also be used for proprietary TLVs as per this document. > > For more information about OUIs see [3]. > > >Christian Expires January 2003 2 > TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 > > The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the first byte set in vendor > implementations. This bit is ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion > of MAC addresses to mean "locally administered", and is reserved for > locally administered (experimental) values in this TLV, e.g., for > academic purposes. > > The TLV of type 250 may be used in IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs. > > On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST ignore TLVs of type 250 > that include an OUI that is not recognised, however the router MUST > flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if they include unrecognised > proprietary TLVs. > > After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may > be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is > conformant with [1]. > > Organisations will have access only to a finite number of OUIs. The > IEEE reserves the right to not assign more OUIs to organisations > that already have them. For more information see [3]. Therefore > implementors would be well advised to think about defining a > format whereby one OUI can be used for multiple types of > proprietary TLV. > > Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into > sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be > well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if sub-TLVs are > to be used then the very first and all subsequent implementations > that use that OUI will need to recognize the sub-TLV structure, and > ignore sub-TLVs that it does not understand whilst searching for > sub-TLVs that it does understand. > >5. Security Considerations > > The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. > > IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain, PDUs (not DPUs) operator's That's all Jeff > and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be > visible outside of an operator's network. > > However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which > an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information > contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not > secure either. > >6. References > > [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing > information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the > Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO > 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. > > [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV > Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 > >Christian Expires January 2003 3 > TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 > > [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html > >7. Acknowledgments > > The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was > discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became > an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly > received. > >8. Author's Addresses > > Philip Christian > Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories > London Road, Harlow, > Essex, CM17 9NA UK > > Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Christian Expires January 2003 4 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:23 PM >To: 'Jeff Parker'; 'Mike Truskowski' >Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > >Here is the security section of what I sent on the 4th. > >If you can improve it then be my guest (I am sure that you can). > >Philip > >5. Security Considerations > > The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. > > IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain, > and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be > visible outside of an operator's network. > > However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which > an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information > contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not > secure either. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Parker [mailto:jparker@axiowave.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:17 PM >To: 'Mike Truskowski' >Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > >Mike - > Yes, the only thing missing was a note from me saying "Ooops" to the >list. > > I am running out of time here, but I'm sure that the issue is in >good hands. >I'll be back in 10 days and will look forward to the current state of >revisions. > >- jeff parker > >> From: Mike Truskowski [mailto:truskows@cisco.com] >> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:12 PM >> To: jparker@axiowave.com >> Cc: christi@nortelnetworks.com >> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> >> >> This message uses a character set that is not supported by >> the Internet Service. To view the original message content, >> open the attached message. If the text doesn't display >> correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it >> using a viewer that can display the original character set. > >If this was private it must have been copied to the whole list by >mistake... > >Anyway, at first I didn't agree with his comments about the word >secure since the OUI is present in the TLV.. but by the time >I got to the last sentence.. I seemed to agree with the thought >process. > >Simply the word "secure" infers different things to different=20 >people... I actually agree in spirit with his last 2 points. Maybe >we, Philip or Jeff, should rewrite the paragraph. It's OK by me. > >I wonder if it was left out to begin with would anyone have asked >to add it. > >Mike> --=====================_19181461==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Philip,

Looks great.

I think we should consider adding one comment to this document.
It's controversial, but this opinion has been raised before and
maybe should be voiced.
 
  There is a danger to using ISIS as a generic transport mechanism for
  flooding information.   LSPs get big, LSDBs get big, CPU time goes up,
  etc.  For this reason, use of this mechanism in LSPs SHOULD be restricted
  to purposes that are important for routing, and an effort should be
  made to minimize the amount of information to be flooded.  Updates
  to information flooded this way SHOULD be less frequent than link
  state and adjacency changes, to avoid causing unnecessary runs of
  SPF.

This is putting it mildly.  Some folks have said, with good reason, that
use of this kind of feature should be strongly discouraged.
No doubt some word-smithing is in order.

Trivial edits below.

At 12:36 PM 7/11/2002, you wrote:

Jeff,

I have just realised that your comments now are important as by the time you get back I will have submitted it onto the Internet Drafts server thing.  I intend to do this on the 15th or 16th.

I hope that you can have a look before you go.  There is actually enough info in here to implement, and so I'm sure that people actually will.

Thanks, Philip

Internet Engineering Task Force                           P. Christian,
INTERNET DRAFT                                          Nortel Networks
                                                              July 2002
 
 
                          TLV for Proprietary Use
                     draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt
 
Status of this Memo
 
   This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with
   all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026.
   
   Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups.  Note that
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet
   Drafts.
   
   Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six
   months.  Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by
   other documents at any time.  It is not appropriate to use Internet
   Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a
   "working draft" or "work in progress".
   
   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt
   
   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.
   
   This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo
   does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. 
   
   Distribution of this draft is unlimited.
   
   
1. Abstract
   
   This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or
   experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines
   the format of the TLV.
   
   
2. Conventions used in this document
   
   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in
   this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.
   







Christian                Expires January 2003                         1
                       TLV for Proprietary Use                July 2002
 
3. Introduction
   
   TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets (PDUs).  When added to IS-IS
   LSPs they are flooded throughout an IS-IS level-1 area or level-2
   subdomain, and when added to IS-IS Hello PDUs they are are present
   only on a specific interface of an IS-IS router.

   The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined in ISO 10589 [1].
   
   The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte
   of the TLV.  Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. 
   Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a
   single TLV type can be used for multiple functions.
   
   No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known

semicolon instead of comma above.

   TLV type numbers at this time.  No TLV type number has ever been
   defined for private, proprietary or experimental use.
   
   The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for
   proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central
   authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally
   simply chosen a number and hoped for the best.  The risk is that
   such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at
   a later time for a different function, thus creating an
   interoperability problem.  Such use also accelerates the consumption
   of the 256 possible TLV type numbers.
   
   This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for
   proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that
   insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV
   for different purposes in the same network without creating
   interoperability problems.
   
   By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may
   use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems
   with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of
   TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use.
   
4. TLV type number for proprietary use
   
   The type field for this TLV SHALL be 250.
   
   TLVs that use 250 for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE
   assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV.

   OUIs are three byte unique numbers that may be purchased from the
   IEEE and which are used for several purposes.  Typically the first
   three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI for example.  By buying an
   an OUI a vendor has effectively bought a block of sixteen million
   MAC addresses, and so most vendors already have an OUI that may
   also be used for proprietary TLVs as per this document.

   For more information about OUIs see [3].
  

Christian                Expires January 2003                         2
                       TLV for Proprietary Use                July 2002

   The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the first byte set in vendor
   implementations.  This bit is ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion
   of MAC addresses to mean "locally administered", and is reserved for
   locally administered (experimental) values in this TLV, e.g., for
   academic purposes.
 
   The TLV of type 250 may be used in IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs.

   On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST ignore TLVs of type 250
   that include an OUI that is not recognised, however the router MUST
   flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if they include unrecognised
   proprietary TLVs.
 
   After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may
   be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is
   conformant with [1].
   
   Organisations will have access only to a finite number of OUIs. The
   IEEE reserves the right to not assign more OUIs to organisations
   that already have them.  For more information see [3].  Therefore
   implementors would be well advised to think about defining a
   format whereby one OUI can be used for multiple types of
   proprietary TLV.

   Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into
   sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be
   well advised to do this from the outset.  Note that if sub-TLVs are
   to be used then the very first and all subsequent implementations
   that use that OUI will need to recognize the sub-TLV structure, and
   ignore sub-TLVs that it does not understand whilst searching for
   sub-TLVs that it does understand.
   
5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. 

   IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain,

PDUs (not DPUs)
operator's

That's all
Jeff

   and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be
   visible outside of an operator's network.

   However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which
   an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information
   contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not
   secure either.
   
6. References
   
   [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing
   information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the
   Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO
   8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992.
   
   [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV
   Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001
    
Christian                Expires January 2003                         3
                       TLV for Proprietary Use                July 2002

   [3] http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html

7. Acknowledgments
   
   The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was
   discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became
   an active participant.  Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly
   received.
   
8. Author's Addresses
   
   Philip Christian
   Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories
   London Road, Harlow,
   Essex, CM17 9NA UK
   
   Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com






































Christian                Expires January 2003                         4

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:23 PM
To: 'Jeff Parker'; 'Mike Truskowski'
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

Here is the security section of what I sent on the 4th.

If you can improve it then be my guest (I am sure that you can).

Philip

5. Security Considerations
 
   The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. 

   IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain,
   and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be
   visible outside of an operator's network.

   However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which
   an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information
   contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not
   secure either.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Parker [mailto:jparker@axiowave.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:17 PM
To: 'Mike Truskowski'
Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

Mike -
        Yes, the only thing missing was a note from me saying "Ooops" to the
list. 

        I am running out of time here, but I'm sure that the issue is in
good hands.
I'll be back in 10 days and will look forward to the current state of
revisions.

- jeff parker

> From: Mike Truskowski [mailto:truskows@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:12 PM
> To: jparker@axiowave.com
> Cc: christi@nortelnetworks.com
> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?
>
>
> This message uses a character set that is not supported by
> the Internet Service.  To view the original message content, 
> open the attached message. If the text doesn't display
> correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it
> using a viewer that can display the original character set.

If this was private it must have been copied to the whole list by
mistake...

Anyway, at first I didn't agree with his comments about the word
secure since the OUI is present in the TLV.. but by  the time
I got to the last sentence.. I seemed to agree with the thought
process.

Simply the word "secure" infers different things to different=20
people...   I actually agree in spirit with his last 2 points.  Maybe
we, Philip or Jeff, should rewrite the paragraph.   It's OK by me.

I wonder if it was left out to begin with would anyone have asked
to add it.

Mike>
--=====================_19181461==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 14:08:19 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28852 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04092; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04059 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28116 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6BHu4Vr026931; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW69273; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711134927.01f32250@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:52:46 -0400 To: Jeff Parker From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Cc: "'christi@nortelnetworks.com'" , "'rja@extremenetworks.com'" , "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org At 12:55 PM 7/11/2002, Jeff Parker wrote: >Philip - > Here is an attempt to reword things to address >Ran's observations. I'm out the door, but you have >the active support of the group to bang this into shape. > >Ran - > I've used the term 'mischief' as a place holder. >Can you suggest a better word to cover the threats that >Virii and Trojan horses represent? > >- jeff parker > >5. Security Considerations > > The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, > so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the > routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, > CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they > are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described > in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, while > encryption could increase their confidentiality. If we need this paragraph for this RFC, we need it for all other IS-IS RFCs. This is true for all IS-IS TLVs, not just this one. So I don't think it's necessary. Of course, it does no harm. > The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed > the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting > interpretations of such information by different implementations. > This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information: it > simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions. As > such, it represents no new potential for mischief. I agree. I think we should point out that it is the responsibility of someone creating a new TLV using this mechanism to address any security issues raised by the new feature. >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list >Isis-wg@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 11 14:29:49 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29868 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07216; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07173 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29379 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp117.cisco.com [10.50.0.116]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26841; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:18:32 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711191724.0443bf50@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:18:26 +0100 To: Jeff Learman From: mike shand Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711124635.01fa56c8@dingdong.cisco.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB770@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org At 13:18 11/07/2002 -0400, Jeff Learman wrote: >Philip, > >Looks great. > >I think we should consider adding one comment to this document. >It's controversial, but this opinion has been raised before and >maybe should be voiced. I strongly agree. There should be some warning against using this as a general purpose reliable multicast. Mike > > There is a danger to using ISIS as a generic transport mechanism for > flooding information. LSPs get big, LSDBs get big, CPU time goes up, > etc. For this reason, use of this mechanism in LSPs SHOULD be restricted > to purposes that are important for routing, and an effort should be > made to minimize the amount of information to be flooded. Updates > to information flooded this way SHOULD be less frequent than link > state and adjacency changes, to avoid causing unnecessary runs of > SPF. > >This is putting it mildly. Some folks have said, with good reason, that >use of this kind of feature should be strongly discouraged. >No doubt some word-smithing is in order. > >Trivial edits below. > >At 12:36 PM 7/11/2002, you wrote: > >>Jeff, >> >>I have just realised that your comments now are important as by the time >>you get back I will have submitted it onto the Internet Drafts server >>thing. I intend to do this on the 15th or 16th. >> >>I hope that you can have a look before you go. There is actually enough >>info in here to implement, and so I'm sure that people actually will. >> >>Thanks, Philip >> >>Internet Engineering Task Force P. Christian, >>INTERNET DRAFT Nortel Networks >> July 2002 >> >> >> TLV for Proprietary Use >> draft-ietf-isis-private-tlv-forlist3.txt >> >>Status of this Memo >> >> This document is an Internet-Draft and is in full conformance with >> all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026. >> >> Internet Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering >> Task Force (IETF), its Areas, and its Working Groups. Note that >> other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet >> Drafts. >> >> Internet Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six >> months. Internet Drafts may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by >> other documents at any time. It is not appropriate to use Internet >> Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as a >> "working draft" or "work in progress". >> >> The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at >> >>http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt >> >> >> The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at >> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. >> >> This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo >> does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. >> >> Distribution of this draft is unlimited. >> >> >>1. Abstract >> >> This document defines a TLV that may be used for vendor specific or >> experimental extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol, and defines >> the format of the TLV. >> >> >>2. Conventions used in this document >> >> The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", >> "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in >> this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Christian Expires January 2003 1 >> TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 >> >>3. Introduction >> >> TLVs are extensions to IS-IS packets (PDUs). When added to IS-IS >> LSPs they are flooded throughout an IS-IS level-1 area or level-2 >> subdomain, and when added to IS-IS Hello PDUs they are are present >> only on a specific interface of an IS-IS router. >> >> The structure of IS-IS TLVs is defined in ISO 10589 [1]. >> >> The basic function of an IS-IS TLV is identified by the first byte >> of the TLV. Thus there are only 256 possible basic types of TLV. >> Certain types of TLV have been defined to include sub-TLVs so that a >> single TLV type can be used for multiple functions. >> >> No single authority assigns TLV type numbers, [2] lists all known > >semicolon instead of comma above. > >> TLV type numbers at this time. No TLV type number has ever been >> defined for private, proprietary or experimental use. >> >> The extensible nature of IS-IS has made the use of TLVs in LSPs for >> proprietary purposes so useful that in the absence of a central >> authority for assigning TLV type numbers vendors have occasionally >> simply chosen a number and hoped for the best. The risk is that >> such a TLV type number may then be chosen by another organization at >> a later time for a different function, thus creating an >> interoperability problem. Such use also accelerates the consumption >> of the 256 possible TLV type numbers. >> >> This document specifies a TLV type number that may be used for >> proprietary, private or experimental purposes, and a mechanism that >> insures that implementations from different sources can use the TLV >> for different purposes in the same network without creating >> interoperability problems. >> >> By using this new TLV, companies, individuals or institutions may >> use extensions to IS-IS without fear of interoperability problems >> with other organizations in the future, and the available pool of >> TLV type numbers will no longer be diminished by proprietary use. >> >>4. TLV type number for proprietary use >> >> The type field for this TLV SHALL be 250. >> >> TLVs that use 250 for the type field MUST include a valid IEEE >> assigned OUI as the first three bytes of the value field of the TLV. >> >> OUIs are three byte unique numbers that may be purchased from the >> IEEE and which are used for several purposes. Typically the first >> three bytes of a MAC address are an OUI for example. By buying an >> an OUI a vendor has effectively bought a block of sixteen million >> MAC addresses, and so most vendors already have an OUI that may >> also be used for proprietary TLVs as per this document. >> >> For more information about OUIs see [3]. >> >> >>Christian Expires January 2003 2 >> TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 >> >> The OUI MUST NOT have the 7th bit of the first byte set in vendor >> implementations. This bit is ordinarily reserved in the OUI portion >> of MAC addresses to mean "locally administered", and is reserved for >> locally administered (experimental) values in this TLV, e.g., for >> academic purposes. >> >> The TLV of type 250 may be used in IS-IS LSP, IIH, ISH or SNP PDUs. >> >> On receipt of an IS-IS PDU a router MUST ignore TLVs of type 250 >> that include an OUI that is not recognised, however the router MUST >> flood LSPs onwards as per [1] even if they include unrecognised >> proprietary TLVs. >> >> After the first three bytes of the value field subsequent bytes may >> be used freely for any purpose provided that the resultant TLV is >> conformant with [1]. >> >> Organisations will have access only to a finite number of OUIs. The >> IEEE reserves the right to not assign more OUIs to organisations >> that already have them. For more information see [3]. Therefore >> implementors would be well advised to think about defining a >> format whereby one OUI can be used for multiple types of >> proprietary TLV. >> >> Implementers are free to format the value field after their OUI into >> sub-TLVs so that it may be used for multiple purposes, and would be >> well advised to do this from the outset. Note that if sub-TLVs are >> to be used then the very first and all subsequent implementations >> that use that OUI will need to recognize the sub-TLV structure, and >> ignore sub-TLVs that it does not understand whilst searching for >> sub-TLVs that it does understand. >> >>5. Security Considerations >> >> The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. >> >> IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain, > >PDUs (not DPUs) >operator's > >That's all >Jeff > >> and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be >> visible outside of an operator's network. >> >> However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which >> an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information >> contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not >> secure either. >> >>6. References >> >> [1] ISO, "Intermediate system to Intermediate system routeing >> information exchange protocol for use in conjunction with the >> Protocol for providing the Connectionless-mode Network Service (ISO >> 8473)", ISO/IEC 10589:1992. >> >> [2] draft-ietf-isis-wg-tlv-codepoints-02.txt, Reserved TLV >> Codepoints in ISIS, Tony Przygienda, November 2001 >> >>Christian Expires January 2003 3 >> TLV for Proprietary Use July 2002 >> >> [3] >> http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/index.html >> >> >>7. Acknowledgments >> >> The author takes no credit for this work as the concept was >> discussed in the IS-IS Working Group before the author even became >> an active participant. Suggestions for acknowledgement gladly >> received. >> >>8. Author's Addresses >> >> Philip Christian >> Nortel Networks Harlow Laboratories >> London Road, Harlow, >> Essex, CM17 9NA UK >> >> Email: christi@nortelnetworks.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Christian Expires January 2003 4 >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >>Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:23 PM >>To: 'Jeff Parker'; 'Mike Truskowski' >>Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> >>Here is the security section of what I sent on the 4th. >> >>If you can improve it then be my guest (I am sure that you can). >> >>Philip >> >>5. Security Considerations >> >> The proprietary TLV raises no new security issues for IS-IS. >> >> IS-IS DPUs will normally be limited to an operators routing domain, >> and so information placed in a proprietary TLV will not normally be >> visible outside of an operator's network. >> >> However IS-IS PDUs are not encrypted, and so if a link over which >> an adjacency is maintained is not secure, then any information >> contained in an IS-IS PDU, including a proprietary TLV is not >> secure either. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jeff Parker [mailto:jparker@axiowave.com] >>Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:17 PM >>To: 'Mike Truskowski' >>Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] >>Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> >>Mike - >> Yes, the only thing missing was a note from me saying "Ooops" to >> the >>list. >> >> I am running out of time here, but I'm sure that the issue is in >>good hands. >>I'll be back in 10 days and will look forward to the current state of >>revisions. >> >>- jeff parker >> >> > From: Mike Truskowski >> [mailto:truskows@cisco.com] >> > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:12 PM >> > To: jparker@axiowave.com >> > Cc: christi@nortelnetworks.com >> > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? >> > >> > >> > This message uses a character set that is not supported by >> > the Internet Service. To view the original message content, >> > open the attached message. If the text doesn't display >> > correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it >> > using a viewer that can display the original character set. >> >>If this was private it must have been copied to the whole list by >>mistake... >> >>Anyway, at first I didn't agree with his comments about the word >>secure since the OUI is present in the TLV.. but by the time >>I got to the last sentence.. I seemed to agree with the thought >>process. >> >>Simply the word "secure" infers different things to different=20 >>people... I actually agree in spirit with his last 2 points. Maybe >>we, Philip or Jeff, should rewrite the paragraph. It's OK by me. >> >>I wonder if it was left out to begin with would anyone have asked >>to add it. >> >>Mike> _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 00:04:42 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA24110 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA09048; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA09018 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gnat.inet.org (gnat.inet.org [63.108.254.91]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23842 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mosquito.inet.org (unknown [10.4.2.99]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7341767105; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:54:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" To: Jeff Parker From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <08B412A5-954B-11D6-9698-00039357A82A@extremenetworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Jeff Parker wrote: > 5. Security Considerations > > The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, > so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the > routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, > CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they > are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described Proposed edit: The addition of cryptographic authentication, as described in [draft mumble] provides integrity and authentication of TLVs. Because of the manner in which IS-IS operates, any router possessing the correct IS-IS keying material could inject incorrect information into the entire IS-IS domain. > in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, > while encryption could increase their confidentiality. What sort of encryption did we have in mind here ? I don't know of a proposal in the IS-IS WG for adding encryption (and I'm far from persuaded that an IGP needs confidentiality, btw). As this runs on the link-layer, the only off-the-shelf mechanism I can think of off-hand is IEEE 802.10 (Ethernet Security). Unfortunately there are negligible numbers of 802.10 implementations, AFAIK. Maybe we should just say something like: The IS-IS specification does not provide confidentiality. As this extension is part of an interior routing protocol, whose purpose is to disseminate information about the routing topology, it is not clear that confidentiality is normally required. If an operator believes that confidentiality is required in their network, a link-layer mechanism (e.g. IEEE 802.10) will be required. > The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed > the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting > interpretations of such information by different implementations. > This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information: it > simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions. As > such, it represents no new potential for mischief. Hmm. I don't quite agree with the sense of the paragraph. There is a new potential for mischief, but it doesn't seem resolvable in this document. Seems fair to note that in the document. I'd suggest something more like: As with any extension, there is the possibility that different implementations would accidentally interpret a given extension in different ways. As this amounts to an implementation error, there is no obvious protocol specification fix for this risk. Implementers are encouraged to make the processing of this extension particularly robust against unexpected formats and against unexpected data values. Because this extension is generic, rather than specific, it is not possible to describe all potential security risks in all potential proprietary extensions deployed using this mechanism. Hence, vendors are encouraged to document their extensions and the security properties of their extensions so that operators can make informed deployment and operations decisions about such proprietary extensions. Would this fly with folks here ? Ran rja@extemenetworks.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 00:59:51 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25970 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA11458; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA11431 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gnat.inet.org (gnat.inet.org [63.108.254.91]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25606 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mosquito.inet.org (unknown [10.4.2.99]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7C767105; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:50:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" To: Jeff Learman From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711134927.01f32250@dingdong.cisco.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 01:52 PM, Jeff Learman wrote: > If we need this paragraph for this RFC, we need it for all other > IS-IS RFCs. This is true for all IS-IS TLVs, not just this one. Absolutely. A bug in the other documents, IMHO. YMMV. :-) :-) ASIDE: As a general concept, a good "Security Considerations" outlines all the known risks, along with whatever security mechanisms (or other risk mitigation mechanisms) exist, suggests approaches to consider to reduce risk, and makes clear to the reader what the residual risks are. There is an I-D elsewhere in the IETF that tries to make it more clear to the whole community how to write a good security considerations. Ran rja@extremenetworks.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 05:55:09 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA14315 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA05952; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA05911 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA13967 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6C9iD813904; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:44:14 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1KDNJ>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:41:56 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB777@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'RJ Atkinson'" , Jeff Parker Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Consider ati ons Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:41:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C22988.5B588858" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22988.5B588858 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The information in the TLV is proprietary. After the first three bytes (the OUI) a vendor can put whatever they like there. This implies that if the vendor wants to encrypt the bytes before they nail an OUI onto the front of it, then they are free to do so. As the extension is proprietary, then a vendor is free to use whatever encryption they choose (including none). Additionally I would imagine that it would be quite hard to understand what the bytes from another vendor mean anyway. After the OUI the format and use of the rest of the TLV will be unknown to anyone other than the vendor whose box made them. It would be like trying to read a page of test of an unknown language; if you don't know the language that you have no dictionary. Therefore I think that stating where the TLV goes (generally limited to an operator's network), and stating that no encryption is provided by IS-IS is a good enough statement. People know what they have on their hands then, which is the point of this section I would have thought. If a vendor considers the information in the TLV sensitive, then they now have the information to decide whether to encrypt or not. As the TLV is proprietary, there is no way that we can know what people are going to put in there. Therefore we can't prescribe what encryption / authentication is needed. A formula that goes 1. Here is what you get as standard. 2. Here is what you can do if "1" isn't good enough. should be sufficient for the intended use, in my opinion. That said, I am no security expert, and I don't really have any problems with your text if people prefer it. Regards, Philip -----Original Message----- From: RJ Atkinson [mailto:rja@extremenetworks.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:54 AM To: Jeff Parker Cc: 'isis-wg@ietf.org' Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Jeff Parker wrote: > 5. Security Considerations > > The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, > so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the > routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, > CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they > are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described Proposed edit: The addition of cryptographic authentication, as described in [draft mumble] provides integrity and authentication of TLVs. Because of the manner in which IS-IS operates, any router possessing the correct IS-IS keying material could inject incorrect information into the entire IS-IS domain. > in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, > while encryption could increase their confidentiality. What sort of encryption did we have in mind here ? I don't know of a proposal in the IS-IS WG for adding encryption (and I'm far from persuaded that an IGP needs confidentiality, btw). As this runs on the link-layer, the only off-the-shelf mechanism I can think of off-hand is IEEE 802.10 (Ethernet Security). Unfortunately there are negligible numbers of 802.10 implementations, AFAIK. Maybe we should just say something like: The IS-IS specification does not provide confidentiality. As this extension is part of an interior routing protocol, whose purpose is to disseminate information about the routing topology, it is not clear that confidentiality is normally required. If an operator believes that confidentiality is required in their network, a link-layer mechanism (e.g. IEEE 802.10) will be required. > The general extensibility of the TLV mechanism has always allowed > the addition of new information, and the possibility of conflicting > interpretations of such information by different implementations. > This proposal does not introduce a new quality of information: it > simply allows an increase in the quantity of such additions. As > such, it represents no new potential for mischief. Hmm. I don't quite agree with the sense of the paragraph. There is a new potential for mischief, but it doesn't seem resolvable in this document. Seems fair to note that in the document. I'd suggest something more like: As with any extension, there is the possibility that different implementations would accidentally interpret a given extension in different ways. As this amounts to an implementation error, there is no obvious protocol specification fix for this risk. Implementers are encouraged to make the processing of this extension particularly robust against unexpected formats and against unexpected data values. Because this extension is generic, rather than specific, it is not possible to describe all potential security risks in all potential proprietary extensions deployed using this mechanism. Hence, vendors are encouraged to document their extensions and the security properties of their extensions so that operators can make informed deployment and operations decisions about such proprietary extensions. Would this fly with folks here ? Ran rja@extemenetworks.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22988.5B588858 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security = Considerati ons

The information in the TLV is proprietary.  = After the first three bytes (the OUI) a vendor can put whatever they = like there.

This implies that if the vendor wants to encrypt the = bytes before they nail an OUI onto the front of it, then they are free = to do so.

As the extension is proprietary, then a vendor is = free to use whatever encryption they choose (including none).  = Additionally I would imagine that it would be quite hard to understand = what the bytes from another vendor mean anyway.  After the OUI the = format and use of the rest of the TLV will be unknown to anyone other = than the vendor whose box made them.  It would be like trying to = read a page of test of an unknown language; if you don't know the = language that you have no dictionary.

Therefore I think that stating where the TLV goes = (generally limited to an operator's network), and stating that no = encryption is provided by IS-IS is a good enough statement.  = People know what they have on their hands then, which is the point of = this section I would have thought.

If a vendor considers the information in the TLV = sensitive, then they now have the information to decide whether to = encrypt or not.

As the TLV is proprietary, there is no way that we = can know what people are going to put in there.  Therefore we = can't prescribe what encryption / authentication is needed.

A formula that goes

1. Here is what you get as standard.
2. Here is what you can do if "1" isn't = good enough.

should be sufficient for the intended use, in my = opinion.

That said, I am no security expert, and I don't = really have any problems with your text if people prefer it.

Regards, Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: RJ Atkinson [mailto:rja@extremenetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:54 AM
To: Jeff Parker
Cc: 'isis-wg@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV = numbers Security
Considerati ons



On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Jeff Parker = wrote:
> 5. Security Considerations
>
>    The contents of IS-IS PDUs = are not protected by encryption,
>    so the contents of TLVs in = LSPs are visible throughout the
>    routing area or domain, while = the contents of Hello Packets,
>    CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible = to observers on the link they
>    are sent to.  The = addition of MD5 authentication, as described

Proposed edit:
        The = addition of cryptographic authentication, as described in
        [draft = mumble] provides integrity and authentication of TLVs.
        Because = of the manner in which IS-IS operates, any router
        possessing the correct IS-IS keying material could = inject
        incorrect = information into the entire IS-IS domain.

>    in [draft mumble] can increase = the integrity of TLVs,


> while encryption could increase their = confidentiality.

What sort of encryption did we have in mind here = ?

I don't know of a proposal in the IS-IS WG for adding = encryption
(and I'm far from persuaded that an IGP needs = confidentiality, btw).
As this runs on the link-layer, the only = off-the-shelf mechanism
I can think of off-hand is IEEE 802.10 (Ethernet = Security).
Unfortunately there are negligible numbers of 802.10 = implementations,
AFAIK.

Maybe we should just say something like:

        The IS-IS = specification does not provide confidentiality.  As this
      extension is part of = an interior routing protocol, whose purpose
        is to = disseminate information about the routing topology, it is
        not clear = that confidentiality is normally required.  If an operator
        believes = that confidentiality is required in their network,
        a = link-layer mechanism (e.g. IEEE 802.10) will be required.

>    The general extensibility of = the TLV mechanism has always allowed
>    the addition of new = information, and the possibility of conflicting
>    interpretations of such = information by different implementations.
>    This proposal does not = introduce a new quality of information: it
>    simply allows an increase in = the quantity of such additions.  As
>    such, it represents no new = potential for mischief.

Hmm.  I don't quite agree with the sense of the = paragraph.  There is
a new potential for mischief, but it doesn't seem = resolvable in this
document.  Seems fair to note that in the = document.

I'd suggest something more like:

        As with = any extension, there is the possibility that different
        implementations would accidentally interpret a given = extension
      in different = ways.   As this amounts to an implementation error,
        there is = no obvious protocol specification fix for this risk.
      Implementers are = encouraged to make the processing of this
      extension = particularly robust against unexpected formats and
        against = unexpected data values.

        Because = this extension is generic, rather than specific, it is
        not = possible to describe all potential security risks in all
        potential = proprietary extensions deployed using this mechanism.
        Hence, = vendors are encouraged to document their extensions and
        the = security properties of their extensions so that operators
        can make = informed deployment and operations decisions about
        such = proprietary extensions.


Would this fly with folks here ?

Ran
rja@extemenetworks.com


_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
Isis-wg@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg

------_=_NextPart_001_01C22988.5B588858-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 09:02:21 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA20677 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14222; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14193 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20255 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6CCq0xe006431; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn2-573.cisco.com [10.82.242.61]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW86941; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712082546.01f876c0@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:26:53 -0400 To: RJ Atkinson From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711134927.01f32250@dingdong.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org At 12:50 AM 7/12/2002, RJ Atkinson wrote: >On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 01:52 PM, Jeff Learman wrote: >>If we need this paragraph for this RFC, we need it for all other >>IS-IS RFCs. This is true for all IS-IS TLVs, not just this one. > >Absolutely. A bug in the other documents, IMHO. YMMV. :-) :-) > >ASIDE: > As a general concept, a good "Security Considerations" outlines >all the known risks, along with whatever security mechanisms >(or other risk mitigation mechanisms) exist, suggests approaches >to consider to reduce risk, and makes clear to the reader >what the residual risks are. There is an I-D elsewhere >in the IETF that tries to make it more clear to the whole >community how to write a good security considerations. Perhaps that would be a good Informational RFC for IS-IS in general. That's where the security issues reside. This RFC doesn't change the security issues. >Ran >rja@extremenetworks.com > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 10:53:50 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25807 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22402; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22374 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25224 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6CEhB822499; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:43:11 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1KPL6>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:43:11 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77D@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'mike shand'" , Jeff Learman Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:43:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.6FB1D79E" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.6FB1D79E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something to chew on and improve. Comments? Philip Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or level-2 subdomain. One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is very infrequent. A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain optimisations that reduce this load. An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which would reduce scalability and stability considerably. Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely changed. 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run rather than two. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised communication channel. Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely in Hello and SNP PDUs. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.6FB1D79E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs.  As normal
I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something
to chew on and improve.  Comments?

Philip

Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs.

   IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol.  Networks have been
   deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or
   level-2 subdomain.

   One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to
   advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its
   local connectivity changes in some way.  In this way the amount of
   routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally
   very low.  Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic
   transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is
   very infrequent.

   A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new
   state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to
   recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain
   optimisations that reduce this load.

   An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a
   proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the
   level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes,
   whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not.  If many ISs
   in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of
   the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which
   would reduce scalability and stability considerably.

   Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a
   proprietary TLV in an LSP.  Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be
   used except for the following (or similar) purposes:-

   1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely
      changed.

   2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the
      topology change would result in a new LSP anyway.  In this case
      the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be
      updated at the same time as the normal LSP update.  This results
      in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run
      rather than two.

   Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised
   communication channel.

   Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded
   throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations
   (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables
   adjacencies).  Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely
   in Hello and SNP PDUs.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.6FB1D79E-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:00:22 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26132 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22729; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22699 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25645 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6CEo6823292; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:50:06 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1KP41>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:50:06 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77E@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'mike shand'" , Jeff Learman Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:50:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.FFF4E152" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.FFF4E152 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP" I think that this might work better as "Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT frequently transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP" Philip -----Original Message----- From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:43 PM To: 'mike shand'; Jeff Learman Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something to chew on and improve. Comments? Philip Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or level-2 subdomain. One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is very infrequent. A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain optimisations that reduce this load. An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which would reduce scalability and stability considerably. Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely changed. 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run rather than two. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised communication channel. Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely in Hello and SNP PDUs. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.FFF4E152 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

"Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a
proprietary TLV in an LSP"

I think that this might work better as
"Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT frequently transmit information in a
proprietary TLV in an LSP"

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:43 PM
To: 'mike shand'; Jeff Learman
Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?


This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs.  As normal
I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something
to chew on and improve.  Comments?
Philip
Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs.
   IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol.  Networks have been
   deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or
   level-2 subdomain.
   One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to
   advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its
   local connectivity changes in some way.  In this way the amount of
   routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally
   very low.  Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic
   transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is
   very infrequent.
   A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new
   state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to
   recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain
   optimisations that reduce this load.
   An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a
   proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the
   level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes,
   whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not.  If many ISs
   in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of
   the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which
   would reduce scalability and stability considerably.
   Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a
   proprietary TLV in an LSP.  Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be
   used except for the following (or similar) purposes:-
   1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely
      changed.
   2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the
      topology change would result in a new LSP anyway.  In this case
      the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be
      updated at the same time as the normal LSP update.  This results
      in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run
      rather than two.
   Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised
   communication channel.
   Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded
   throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations
   (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables
   adjacencies).  Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely
   in Hello and SNP PDUs.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B2.FFF4E152-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:10:56 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26737 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA23206; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA23162 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com (hiddenuser@prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26068 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416EA1DCC73; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:59:54 -0700 (PDT) To: "Philip Christian" Cc: "'mike shand'" , Jeff Learman , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? In-reply-to: Mail from "Philip Christian" dated Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:43:07 BST <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77D@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:59:54 -0700 From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020712145954.416EA1DCC73@prattle.redback.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org ] ] An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a ] proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the ] level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, that assumption is not true. an IS has some intelligence SHOULD NOT recalculate when some irrelavant information changes. for example, some TE bandwidth info change in LSPs WILL NOT cause a reasonable implementation to rerun SPF. ] whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs ] in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of ] the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which ] would reduce scalability and stability considerably. ] ] Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a ] proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be ] used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- ] - Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:15:43 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27016 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA24145; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:05:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA24113 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26397 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp81.cisco.com [10.50.0.80]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25459; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:04:41 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712155959.043bf250@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:04:33 +0100 To: "Philip Christian" From: mike shand Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: Jeff Learman , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77D@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or only) concern. An implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF when information which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed (although arguably it could use considerable resources deciding that it need not bother). The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs which may require storing and flooding is also an issue, and really the one which concerns me most. But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need go into so much detail. I think it would suffice simply to say "don't do it". Mike At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal >I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something >to chew on and improve. Comments? > >Philip > >Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. > > IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been > deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or > level-2 subdomain. > > One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to > advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its > local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of > routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally > very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic > transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is > very infrequent. > > A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new > state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to > recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain > optimisations that reduce this load. > > An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a > proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the > level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, > whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs > in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of > the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which > would reduce scalability and stability considerably. > > Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a > proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be > used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- > > 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely > changed. > > 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the > topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case > the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be > updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results > in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run > rather than two. > > Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised > communication channel. > > Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded > throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations > (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables > adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely > in Hello and SNP PDUs. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:25:44 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27556 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25181; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25121 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27044 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6CFGvEF022637; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW90181; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712111400.020e2db8@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:18 -0400 To: mike shand From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712155959.043bf250@jaws.cisco.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77D@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org I agree, Philip. When you go into tha much detail, you're bound to say stuff that isn't technically accurate ;-) On the other hand, it really helps when there's enough explanation so that everyone understands the issues, and my first post certainly wasn't sufficient in that respect. It's a matter of balance. Let me take a crack at it this weekend. Regards, Jeff At 11:04 AM 7/12/2002, mike shand wrote: >I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or only) concern. An implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF when information which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed (although arguably it could use considerable resources deciding that it need not bother). > >The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs which may require storing and flooding is also an issue, and really the one which concerns me most. > >But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need go into so much detail. I think it would suffice simply to say "don't do it". > > > Mike > >At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > >>This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal >>I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something >>to chew on and improve. Comments? >> >>Philip >> >>Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. >> >> IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been >> deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or >> level-2 subdomain. >> >> One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to >> advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its >> local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of >> routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally >> very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic >> transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is >> very infrequent. >> >> A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new >> state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to >> recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain >> optimisations that reduce this load. >> >> An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a >> proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the >> level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, >> whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs >> in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of >> the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which >> would reduce scalability and stability considerably. >> >> Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a >> proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be >> used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- >> >> 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely >> changed. >> >> 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the >> topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case >> the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be >> updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results >> in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run >> rather than two. >> >> Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised >> communication channel. >> >> Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded >> throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations >> (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables >> adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely >> in Hello and SNP PDUs. > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:27:21 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27759 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25177; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25120 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27045 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6CFGuSk022632; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW90179; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712110337.0209b830@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:05:58 -0400 To: Naiming Shen From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "Philip Christian" , "'mike shand'" , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20020712145954.416EA1DCC73@prattle.redback.com> References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77D@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org At 10:59 AM 7/12/2002, Naiming Shen wrote: > ] > ] An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a > ] proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the > ] level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, > >that assumption is not true. an IS has some intelligence SHOULD NOT >recalculate when some irrelavant information changes. for example, >some TE bandwidth info change in LSPs WILL NOT cause a reasonable >implementation to rerun SPF. Would it be better to say "it could cause every other IS in the subdomain ..."? Jeff > ] whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs > ] in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of > ] the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which > ] would reduce scalability and stability considerably. > ] > ] Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a > ] proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be > ] used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- > ] > >- Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:46:41 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28951 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27266; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27228 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wells.cisco.com (wells.cisco.com [171.71.177.223]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28313 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (truskows@localhost) by wells.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) id IAA16804; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:35:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Truskowski Message-Id: <200207121535.IAA16804@wells.cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? To: christi@nortelnetworks.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Cc: mshand@cisco.com, jlearman@cisco.com, isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77E@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> from Philip Christian at Jul "12," 2002 "03:50:01" pm X-Mailer: ELM [] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=ELM1026488138-9726-0_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --ELM1026488138-9726-0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, I don't agree with this. How can you say you have a private TLV and then to say don't use it often? Nonsense. Don't placate. Mike --ELM1026488138-9726-0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: /tmp/DAAa09726 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP" I think that this might work better as "Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT frequently transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP" Philip -----Original Message----- From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:43 PM To: 'mike shand'; Jeff Learman Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something to chew on and improve. Comments? Philip Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or level-2 subdomain. One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is very infrequent. A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain optimisations that reduce this load. An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which would reduce scalability and stability considerably. Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely changed. 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run rather than two. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised communication channel. Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely in Hello and SNP PDUs. --ELM1026488138-9726-0_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: /tmp/EAAa09726 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

"Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a
proprietary TLV in an LSP"

I think that this might work better as
"Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT frequently transmit information in a
proprietary TLV in an LSP"

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:43 PM
To: 'mike shand'; Jeff Learman
Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?


This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs.  As normal
I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something
to chew on and improve.  Comments?
Philip
Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs.
   IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol.  Networks have been
   deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or
   level-2 subdomain.
   One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to
   advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its
   local connectivity changes in some way.  In this way the amount of
   routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally
   very low.  Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic
   transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is
   very infrequent.
   A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new
   state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to
   recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain
   optimisations that reduce this load.
   An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a
   proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the
   level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes,
   whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not.  If many ISs
   in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of
   the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which
   would reduce scalability and stability considerably.
   Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a
   proprietary TLV in an LSP.  Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be
   used except for the following (or similar) purposes:-
   1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely
      changed.
   2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the
      topology change would result in a new LSP anyway.  In this case
      the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be
      updated at the same time as the normal LSP update.  This results
      in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run
      rather than two.
   Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised
   communication channel.
   Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded
   throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations
   (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables
   adjacencies).  Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely
   in Hello and SNP PDUs.

--ELM1026488138-9726-0_-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 11:47:31 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29030 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27378; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27348 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28389 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6CFag804067; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:36:43 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1KRGN>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:36:43 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77F@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'Jeff Learman'" , mike shand Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:36:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C229B9.E8744DE0" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B9.E8744DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal practice (or even mandatory) for an IS to store the old LSP when a new one comes along? Presumably it holds it till it times out? Therefore sending a big TLV is bad. Sending a TLV frequently is bad. Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ? Is that about right? Thanks, Philip -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:16 PM To: mike shand Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? I agree, Philip. When you go into tha much detail, you're bound to say stuff that isn't technically accurate ;-) On the other hand, it really helps when there's enough explanation so that everyone understands the issues, and my first post certainly wasn't sufficient in that respect. It's a matter of balance. Let me take a crack at it this weekend. Regards, Jeff At 11:04 AM 7/12/2002, mike shand wrote: >I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or only) concern. An implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF when information which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed (although arguably it could use considerable resources deciding that it need not bother). > >The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs which may require storing and flooding is also an issue, and really the one which concerns me most. > >But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need go into so much detail. I think it would suffice simply to say "don't do it". > > > Mike > >At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > >>This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal >>I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something >>to chew on and improve. Comments? >> >>Philip >> >>Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. >> >> IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been >> deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or >> level-2 subdomain. >> >> One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to >> advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its >> local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of >> routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally >> very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic >> transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is >> very infrequent. >> >> A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new >> state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to >> recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain >> optimisations that reduce this load. >> >> An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a >> proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the >> level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, >> whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs >> in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of >> the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which >> would reduce scalability and stability considerably. >> >> Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a >> proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be >> used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- >> >> 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely >> changed. >> >> 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the >> topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case >> the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be >> updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results >> in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run >> rather than two. >> >> Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised >> communication channel. >> >> Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded >> throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations >> (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables >> adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely >> in Hello and SNP PDUs. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B9.E8744DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal = practice (or even mandatory) for an IS to store the old LSP when a new = one comes along?  Presumably it holds it till it times = out?

Therefore sending a big TLV is bad.
Sending a TLV frequently is bad.
Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ?

Is that about right?

Thanks, Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com]=
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:16 PM
To: mike shand
Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; = isis-wg@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV = numbers?



I agree, Philip.  When you go into tha much = detail, you're bound
to say stuff that isn't technically accurate = ;-)  On the other hand,
it really helps when there's enough explanation so = that everyone
understands the issues, and my first post certainly = wasn't sufficient
in that respect.  It's a matter of = balance.

Let me take a crack at it this weekend.

Regards,
Jeff

At 11:04 AM 7/12/2002, mike shand wrote:
>I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or = only) concern. An implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF = when information which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed = (although arguably it could use considerable resources deciding that it = need not bother).

>
>The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs = which may require storing and flooding is also an issue, and really the = one which concerns me most.

>
>But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need = go into so much detail. I think it would suffice simply to say = "don't do it".

>
>
>        = Mike
>
>At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian = wrote:
>
>>This is my first thought on the problem of = abuse of LSPs.  As normal
>>I've probably written too much, but it will = give you guys something
>>to chew on and improve.  = Comments?
>>
>>Philip
>>
>>Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs.
>>
>>   IS-IS is a highly scalable = routing protocol.  Networks have been
>>   deployed containing many = hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or
>>   level-2 subdomain.
>>
>>   One contributing factor to this = scalability is that an IS needs to
>>   advertise its links and metrics = only when it starts up, or when its
>>   local connectivity changes in = some way.  In this way the amount of
>>   routing information traversing = an IS-IS routed network is normally
>>   very low.  Unlike some = other routing protocols, there is no periodic
>>   transmission of routing = information, except for LSP timeout which is
>>   very infrequent.
>>
>>   A downside of this is that = every time one IS does advertise a new
>>   state of connectivity, every = single IS in the network will need to
>>   recalculate all of its routes, = although there are certain
>>   optimisations that reduce this = load.
>>
>>   An unfortunate consequence of = an IS sending out new information in a
>>   proprietary TLV in an LSP is = that it causes every other IS in the
>>   level-1 area or level-2 = subdomain to recalculate all of its routes,
>>   whether an IS understands that = particular TLV or not.  If many ISs
>>   in a large network were to = frequently send out new LSPs then all of
>>   the ISs might spend most of = their time recalculating routes, which
>>   would reduce scalability and = stability considerably.
>>
>>   Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT = regularly transmit information in a
>>   proprietary TLV in an = LSP.  Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be
>>   used except for the following = (or similar) purposes:-
>>
>>   1. For information about an IS = that is constant or very rarely
>>      = changed.
>>
>>   2. For information that is = related to topology, in which case the
>>      topology = change would result in a new LSP anyway.  In this case
>>      the topology = change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be
>>      updated at = the same time as the normal LSP update.  This results
>>      in all of the = other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run
>>      rather than = two.
>>
>>   Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST = NOT be used as a generalised
>>   communication channel.
>>
>>   Proprietary TLVs that are used = in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded
>>   throughout a network, and do = not result in route recalculations
>>   (unless they are part of a = feature that enables or disables
>>   adjacencies).  Therefore = the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely
>>   in Hello and SNP PDUs.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C229B9.E8744DE0-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 12:03:14 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29989 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28524; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28496 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29331 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6CFtJC08053; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:55:20 +0200 Message-ID: <3D2EFB34.8090004@net4u.ch> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:52:20 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RJ Atkinson CC: Jeff Parker , "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons References: <08B412A5-954B-11D6-9698-00039357A82A@extremenetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RJ Atkinson wrote: > > On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Jeff Parker wrote: > >> 5. Security Considerations >> >> The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, >> so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the >> routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, >> CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they >> are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described > > > Proposed edit: > The addition of cryptographic authentication, as described in > [draft mumble] provides integrity and authentication of TLVs. > Because of the manner in which IS-IS operates, any router > possessing the correct IS-IS keying material could inject > incorrect information into the entire IS-IS domain. > >> in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, > > > > I'd suggest something more like: > > As with any extension, there is the possibility that different > implementations would accidentally interpret a given extension > in different ways. As this amounts to an implementation error, > there is no obvious protocol specification fix for this risk. > Implementers are encouraged to make the processing of this > extension particularly robust against unexpected formats and > against unexpected data values. > > Because this extension is generic, rather than specific, it is > not possible to describe all potential security risks in all > potential proprietary extensions deployed using this mechanism. > Hence, vendors are encouraged to document their extensions and > the security properties of their extensions so that operators > can make informed deployment and operations decisions about > such proprietary extensions. hmm, not saying this is incorrect but Ran may be trying to close the barn after the horse bolted. If I have the possiblity to inject information into the ISIS domain, I will just fake up topology in well-known format packets rather than going through the pains of faking other people's proprietary stuff ... thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 12:08:29 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00483 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28871; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28843 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29663 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp81.cisco.com [10.50.0.80]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27169; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:58:51 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712164908.043bf148@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:58:46 +0100 To: "Philip Christian" From: mike shand Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: "'Jeff Learman'" , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77F@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org At 16:36 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: >Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal practice (or even mandatory) >for an IS to store the old LSP when a new one comes along? No. > Presumably it holds it till it times out? Only the most recent >Therefore sending a big TLV is bad. >Sending a TLV frequently is bad. >Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ? > >Is that about right? One reason using up lots of space is bad is because we are somewhat limited to about 255*1500 bytes per systemID. If someone decided to generate lots of very large private TLVs, this would be a bad thing (but only for the router doing it). However, all the other routers would have to have memory space to store them. And if you send them frequently, you would use up a fair amount of link bandwidth in flooding all these LSPs. The point is that the idea of these private TLVs is so that you can implement some cunning enhancement to routing, perhaps using a few bytes, probably not even changing it frequently. What we want to discourage is using this technique to implement a generalised reliable multicast service usable by an application. A mis-design like that could end up sending several thousand bytes per second. That is emphatically NOT what IS-IS should be used for. But I really think a note along the lines of "be sensible" is all that is required. Mike >Thanks, Philip > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] >Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:16 PM >To: mike shand >Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; isis-wg@ietf.org >Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? > > >I agree, Philip. When you go into tha much detail, you're bound >to say stuff that isn't technically accurate ;-) On the other hand, >it really helps when there's enough explanation so that everyone >understands the issues, and my first post certainly wasn't sufficient >in that respect. It's a matter of balance. > >Let me take a crack at it this weekend. > >Regards, >Jeff > >At 11:04 AM 7/12/2002, mike shand wrote: > >I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or only) concern. An > implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF when information > which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed (although arguably > it could use considerable resources deciding that it need not bother). > > > > >The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs which may require storing > and flooding is also an issue, and really the one which concerns me most. > > > > >But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need go into so much detail. > I think it would suffice simply to say "don't do it". > > > > > > > Mike > > > >At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > > > >>This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal > >>I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something > >>to chew on and improve. Comments? > >> > >>Philip > >> > >>Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. > >> > >> IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been > >> deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or > >> level-2 subdomain. > >> > >> One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to > >> advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its > >> local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of > >> routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally > >> very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic > >> transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is > >> very infrequent. > >> > >> A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new > >> state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to > >> recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain > >> optimisations that reduce this load. > >> > >> An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a > >> proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the > >> level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, > >> whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs > >> in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of > >> the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which > >> would reduce scalability and stability considerably. > >> > >> Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a > >> proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be > >> used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- > >> > >> 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely > >> changed. > >> > >> 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the > >> topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case > >> the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be > >> updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results > >> in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run > >> rather than two. > >> > >> Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised > >> communication channel. > >> > >> Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded > >> throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations > >> (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables > >> adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely > >> in Hello and SNP PDUs. > > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 12:15:26 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01040 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00684; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00648 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h33s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29985 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6CG3F811001; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:03:16 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3CJ1KR8P>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:03:16 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB783@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'mike shand'" Cc: "'Jeff Learman'" , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:03:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C229BD.A1D24046" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229BD.A1D24046 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "But I really think a note along the lines of "be sensible" is all that is required. Mike" I have no problems with that. Thanks, Philip ------_=_NextPart_001_01C229BD.A1D24046 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

"But I really think a note along the lines of "be sensible" is all that is
required.

         Mike"

I have no problems with that.

Thanks, Philip

------_=_NextPart_001_01C229BD.A1D24046-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 12:36:15 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02271 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02580; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02538 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wells.cisco.com (wells.cisco.com [171.71.177.223]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01837 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (truskows@localhost) by wells.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) id JAA25772; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:26:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Truskowski Message-Id: <200207121626.JAA25772@wells.cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? To: christi@nortelnetworks.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jlearman@cisco.com, mshand@cisco.com, isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77F@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> from Philip Christian at Jul "12," 2002 "04:36:36" pm X-Mailer: ELM [] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=ELM1026491215-9726-4_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --ELM1026491215-9726-4_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And not sending a TLV could be equially bad. :-) mwt --ELM1026491215-9726-4_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: /tmp/SAAa09726 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal practice (or even mandatory) for an IS to store the old LSP when a new one comes along? Presumably it holds it till it times out? Therefore sending a big TLV is bad. Sending a TLV frequently is bad. Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ? Is that about right? Thanks, Philip -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:16 PM To: mike shand Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? I agree, Philip. When you go into tha much detail, you're bound to say stuff that isn't technically accurate ;-) On the other hand, it really helps when there's enough explanation so that everyone understands the issues, and my first post certainly wasn't sufficient in that respect. It's a matter of balance. Let me take a crack at it this weekend. Regards, Jeff At 11:04 AM 7/12/2002, mike shand wrote: >I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or only) concern. An implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF when information which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed (although arguably it could use considerable resources deciding that it need not bother). > >The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs which may require storing and flooding is also an issue, and really the one which concerns me most. > >But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need go into so much detail. I think it would suffice simply to say "don't do it". > > > Mike > >At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian wrote: > >>This is my first thought on the problem of abuse of LSPs. As normal >>I've probably written too much, but it will give you guys something >>to chew on and improve. Comments? >> >>Philip >> >>Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs. >> >> IS-IS is a highly scalable routing protocol. Networks have been >> deployed containing many hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or >> level-2 subdomain. >> >> One contributing factor to this scalability is that an IS needs to >> advertise its links and metrics only when it starts up, or when its >> local connectivity changes in some way. In this way the amount of >> routing information traversing an IS-IS routed network is normally >> very low. Unlike some other routing protocols, there is no periodic >> transmission of routing information, except for LSP timeout which is >> very infrequent. >> >> A downside of this is that every time one IS does advertise a new >> state of connectivity, every single IS in the network will need to >> recalculate all of its routes, although there are certain >> optimisations that reduce this load. >> >> An unfortunate consequence of an IS sending out new information in a >> proprietary TLV in an LSP is that it causes every other IS in the >> level-1 area or level-2 subdomain to recalculate all of its routes, >> whether an IS understands that particular TLV or not. If many ISs >> in a large network were to frequently send out new LSPs then all of >> the ISs might spend most of their time recalculating routes, which >> would reduce scalability and stability considerably. >> >> Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT regularly transmit information in a >> proprietary TLV in an LSP. Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be >> used except for the following (or similar) purposes:- >> >> 1. For information about an IS that is constant or very rarely >> changed. >> >> 2. For information that is related to topology, in which case the >> topology change would result in a new LSP anyway. In this case >> the topology change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be >> updated at the same time as the normal LSP update. This results >> in all of the other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run >> rather than two. >> >> Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST NOT be used as a generalised >> communication channel. >> >> Proprietary TLVs that are used in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded >> throughout a network, and do not result in route recalculations >> (unless they are part of a feature that enables or disables >> adjacencies). Therefore the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely >> in Hello and SNP PDUs. > --ELM1026491215-9726-4_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: /tmp/TAAa09726 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers?

Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal = practice (or even mandatory) for an IS to store the old LSP when a new = one comes along?  Presumably it holds it till it times = out?

Therefore sending a big TLV is bad.
Sending a TLV frequently is bad.
Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ?

Is that about right?

Thanks, Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com]=
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:16 PM
To: mike shand
Cc: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]; = isis-wg@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV = numbers?



I agree, Philip.  When you go into tha much = detail, you're bound
to say stuff that isn't technically accurate = ;-)  On the other hand,
it really helps when there's enough explanation so = that everyone
understands the issues, and my first post certainly = wasn't sufficient
in that respect.  It's a matter of = balance.

Let me take a crack at it this weekend.

Regards,
Jeff

At 11:04 AM 7/12/2002, mike shand wrote:
>I'm not sure that triggering SPF is the main (or = only) concern. An implementation can always choose to only re-run SPF = when information which would affect the outcome of the SPF has changed = (although arguably it could use considerable resources deciding that it = need not bother).

>
>The sheer quantity of information in the LSPs = which may require storing and flooding is also an issue, and really the = one which concerns me most.

>
>But aside from that, I'm not sure the draft need = go into so much detail. I think it would suffice simply to say = "don't do it".

>
>
>        = Mike
>
>At 15:43 12/07/2002 +0100, Philip Christian = wrote:
>
>>This is my first thought on the problem of = abuse of LSPs.  As normal
>>I've probably written too much, but it will = give you guys something
>>to chew on and improve.  = Comments?
>>
>>Philip
>>
>>Appropriate use of proprietary TLVs.
>>
>>   IS-IS is a highly scalable = routing protocol.  Networks have been
>>   deployed containing many = hundreds of ISs in a single level-1 area or
>>   level-2 subdomain.
>>
>>   One contributing factor to this = scalability is that an IS needs to
>>   advertise its links and metrics = only when it starts up, or when its
>>   local connectivity changes in = some way.  In this way the amount of
>>   routing information traversing = an IS-IS routed network is normally
>>   very low.  Unlike some = other routing protocols, there is no periodic
>>   transmission of routing = information, except for LSP timeout which is
>>   very infrequent.
>>
>>   A downside of this is that = every time one IS does advertise a new
>>   state of connectivity, every = single IS in the network will need to
>>   recalculate all of its routes, = although there are certain
>>   optimisations that reduce this = load.
>>
>>   An unfortunate consequence of = an IS sending out new information in a
>>   proprietary TLV in an LSP is = that it causes every other IS in the
>>   level-1 area or level-2 = subdomain to recalculate all of its routes,
>>   whether an IS understands that = particular TLV or not.  If many ISs
>>   in a large network were to = frequently send out new LSPs then all of
>>   the ISs might spend most of = their time recalculating routes, which
>>   would reduce scalability and = stability considerably.
>>
>>   Therefore an IS SHOULD NOT = regularly transmit information in a
>>   proprietary TLV in an = LSP.  Proprietary TLVs in LSPs SHOULD NOT be
>>   used except for the following = (or similar) purposes:-
>>
>>   1. For information about an IS = that is constant or very rarely
>>      = changed.
>>
>>   2. For information that is = related to topology, in which case the
>>      topology = change would result in a new LSP anyway.  In this case
>>      the topology = change SHOULD trigger the proprietary TLV to be
>>      updated at = the same time as the normal LSP update.  This results
>>      in all of the = other ISs in the network performing only one SPF run
>>      rather than = two.
>>
>>   Proprietary TLVs in LSPs MUST = NOT be used as a generalised
>>   communication channel.
>>
>>   Proprietary TLVs that are used = in Hello and SNP PDUs are not flooded
>>   throughout a network, and do = not result in route recalculations
>>   (unless they are part of a = feature that enables or disables
>>   adjacencies).  Therefore = the proprietary TLV MAY be used more freely
>>   in Hello and SNP PDUs.
>

--ELM1026491215-9726-4_-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 12:40:22 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02449 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02491; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02461 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wells.cisco.com (wells.cisco.com [171.71.177.223]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01778 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (truskows@localhost) by wells.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) id JAA23949; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:25:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Truskowski Message-Id: <200207121625.JAA23949@wells.cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons To: prz@net4u.ch Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: rja@extremenetworks.com, jparker@axiowave.com, isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3D2EFB34.8090004@net4u.ch> from Tony Przygienda at Jul "12," 2002 "08:52:20" am X-Mailer: ELM [] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree. Why do we have this issue when there are other ways to screw up a network. mike > > > RJ Atkinson wrote: > > > > > On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Jeff Parker wrote: > > > >> 5. Security Considerations > >> > >> The contents of IS-IS PDUs are not protected by encryption, > >> so the contents of TLVs in LSPs are visible throughout the > >> routing area or domain, while the contents of Hello Packets, > >> CSNPs, and PSNPs are visible to observers on the link they > >> are sent to. The addition of MD5 authentication, as described > > > > > > Proposed edit: > > The addition of cryptographic authentication, as described in > > [draft mumble] provides integrity and authentication of TLVs. > > Because of the manner in which IS-IS operates, any router > > possessing the correct IS-IS keying material could inject > > incorrect information into the entire IS-IS domain. > > > >> in [draft mumble] can increase the integrity of TLVs, > > > > > > > > I'd suggest something more like: > > > > As with any extension, there is the possibility that different > > implementations would accidentally interpret a given extension > > in different ways. As this amounts to an implementation error, > > there is no obvious protocol specification fix for this risk. > > Implementers are encouraged to make the processing of this > > extension particularly robust against unexpected formats and > > against unexpected data values. > > > > Because this extension is generic, rather than specific, it is > > not possible to describe all potential security risks in all > > potential proprietary extensions deployed using this mechanism. > > Hence, vendors are encouraged to document their extensions and > > the security properties of their extensions so that operators > > can make informed deployment and operations decisions about > > such proprietary extensions. > > hmm, not saying this is incorrect but Ran may be trying to close > the barn after the horse bolted. If I have the possiblity to inject > information > into the ISIS domain, I will just fake up topology in well-known format > packets rather than going through the pains of faking other people's > proprietary stuff ... > > thanks > > -- tony > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 13:18:35 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04438 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA05788; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA05756 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03917 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6CH7XhI023490; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABW93142; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712125334.01aac4c0@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:03:16 -0400 To: "Philip Christian" From: Jeff Learman Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: mike shand , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB77F@zhard0jd.europe.nor tel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_103160567==_.ALT" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --=====================_103160567==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:36 AM 7/12/2002, Philip Christian wrote: >Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal practice (or even mandatory) for an IS to store the old LSP when a new one comes along? Presumably it holds it till it times out? > >Therefore sending a big TLV is bad. Right. >Sending a TLV frequently is bad. Not quite right. CHANGING a TLV frequently is bad, because you need to regen and flood your LSP each time you change it. Of course, someone might say, "Well, I don't need to update everyone each time I change the value, it's fine just to include the current value whenever I generate my LSP for some other reason." This would be fine, and it means that we need to be a little more specific about what not to do: your TLV should not significantly affect the frequency with which your router sends LSPs. (Obviously, this argument applies to LSP TLVs, so we gotta be careful about that ...) But like Mike says, let's keep it as simple as possible, and give a word to the wise. Fools better not be messing with this stuff anyway ;-) By the way, it wouldn't make much sense to send your TLV in some LSPs and not in others. I suppose someone could come up with an excuse to do this, but I doubt I'd buy it. Jeff >Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ? > >Is that about right? > >Thanks, Philip --=====================_103160567==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 11:36 AM 7/12/2002, Philip Christian wrote:
Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it normal practice (or even mandatory) for an IS to store the old LSP when a new one comes along?  Presumably it holds it till it times out?

Therefore sending a big TLV is bad.

Right.

Sending a TLV frequently is bad.

Not quite right.  CHANGING a TLV frequently is bad, because
you need to regen and flood your LSP each time you change it.
Of course, someone might say, "Well, I don't need to update
everyone each time I change the value, it's fine just to include
the current value whenever I generate my LSP for some other
reason."  This would be fine, and it means that we need to be
a little more specific about what not to do: your TLV should
not significantly affect the frequency with which your router
sends LSPs.  (Obviously, this argument applies to LSP TLVs, so
we gotta be careful about that ...)  But like Mike says, let's
keep it as simple as possible, and give a word to the wise.
Fools better not be messing with this stuff anyway ;-)

By the way, it wouldn't make much sense to send your TLV in some
LSPs and not in others.  I suppose someone could come up with an
excuse to do this, but I doubt I'd buy it.

Jeff

Sending a big TLV frequently is bad^2 ?

Is that about right?

Thanks, Philip
--=====================_103160567==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 14:52:39 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA08641 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA11109; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA11079 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tahoe.sj.allegronetworks.com (tahoe.allegronetworks.com [63.115.58.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07924 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by tahoe.allegronetworks.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:39:45 -0700 Message-ID: From: Neal Castagnoli To: "'Naiming Shen'" , Philip Christian Cc: "'mike shand'" , Jeff Learman , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:39:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > From: Naiming Shen [mailto:naiming@redback.com] > recalculate when some irrelavant information changes. for example, > some TE bandwidth info change in LSPs WILL NOT cause a reasonable ^^^^ > implementation to rerun SPF. Naiming, I think this is implementation dependent, and you can have reasonable implementations that run SPF whenever there is a change to the LSP's variable part or other relevent fields. Some might say the complexity and potential attendant error in suppressing SPF runs isn't worth it. There is a very high cost to incorrectly suppressing an SPF (routing loops, etc), and so if the time to run SPF is low enough, perhaps you are better of just doing it. Meanwhile, if the implementation's SPF takes an unacceptably long time, then perhaps the added complexity is worth it. --Neal _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 15:00:43 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09131 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA11697; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA11665 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM (Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM [63.165.80.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA08458 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.adtech-inc.com (apollo.adtech-inc.com [10.12.0.17]) by Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6CInj89025058 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:49:45 -1000 (HST) Received: by apollo.adtech-inc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3S3Y1VRP>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:56:27 -1000 Message-ID: <8AC36D3167EED41184C800508BD9540502DD6B9C@apollo.adtech-inc.com> From: "Chan, Chung Ming" To: isis-wg@ietf.org Cc: "Chan, Chung Ming" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:56:17 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Hi, I'm running a test on how an ISIS implementation handles different kinds of encoding errors. One of such errors is unknown version number. Since the current Version/Protocol ID Extension and Version fields in the ISIS PDU fixed headers are set to one (1), so if an ISIS implementation receive a PDU with different values, how should the receiving ISIS router handle the PDU? Should it just ignores/discards the PDU or act on the PDU if somehow it can decode *some*/*most* of the information out? I've two implementations in the lab ignore/discard the PDU and one response to the received PDU. Please, advise! Thanks, C. Ming Chan _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Fri Jul 12 16:04:25 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12675 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6CJf1t26002; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM (thor.adtech-inc.com [63.165.80.10]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6CJRXt25926 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ming.Chan@SpirentCom.COM) Received: from apollo.adtech-inc.com (apollo.adtech-inc.com [10.12.0.17]) by Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6CJnA89028459 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:49:10 -1000 (HST) Received: by apollo.adtech-inc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3S3Y1VVL>; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:55:51 -1000 Message-ID: <8AC36D3167EED41184C800508BD9540502DD6B9F@apollo.adtech-inc.com> From: "Chan, Chung Ming" To: "'isis-wg@spider.juniper.net'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:55:47 -1000 Hi, I'm running a test on how an ISIS implementation handles different kinds of encoding errors. One of such errors is unknown version number. Since the current Version/Protocol ID Extension and Version fields in the ISIS PDU fixed headers are set to one (1), so if an ISIS implementation receive a PDU with different values, how should the receiving ISIS router handle the PDU? Should it just ignores/discards the PDU or act on the PDU if somehow it can decode *some*/*most* of the information out? I've two implementations in the lab ignore/discard the PDU and one response to the received PDU. Please, advise! Thanks, C. Ming Chan _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 17:33:46 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15576 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20164; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20131 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15001 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6CLIiC30861 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:18:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3D2F46FE.3060100@net4u.ch> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:15:42 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] FYI: old list down ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old list on @juniper.net is down as of now, everything please to this list -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 12 18:17:22 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17201 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA22687; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA22656 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (europe.cisco.com [144.254.52.73]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16726 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JVASSEUR-W2K.cisco.com ([10.49.250.163]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02720 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:07:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020713000529.045cb008@paris.cisco.com> X-Sender: jvasseur@paris.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:07:14 +0200 To: isis-wg@ietf.org From: Jean Philippe Vasseur Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-vasseur-mpls-isis-pcsd-discovery-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Hi, FYI, http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vasseur-mpls-isis-pcsd-discovery-01.txt Abstract This draft proposes an IS-IS extension for a router to announce its Path Computation Server capability used in the context of MPLS Traffic Engineering. This draft defines a new TLV called PCSD sub- TLV (Path Computation Server Discovery) which is carried within the IS-IS LSP. Any comment is of course very welcome. JP. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sat Jul 13 03:55:25 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA15572 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 03:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA04092; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 03:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA04063 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 03:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gnat.inet.org (gnat.inet.org [63.108.254.91]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA14879 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 03:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mosquito.inet.org (ssh.extremenetworks.com [10.0.1.139]) by gnat.inet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD66F67105; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 04:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 03:44:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" To: prz@net4u.ch From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <3D2EFB34.8090004@net4u.ch> Message-Id: <62FCC36C-9634-11D6-BB06-00039357A82A@extremenetworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, July 12, 2002, at 11:52 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > hmm, not saying this is incorrect but Ran may be trying to close > the barn after the horse bolted. If I have the possiblity to inject > information > into the ISIS domain, I will just fake up topology in well-known format > packets rather than going through the pains of faking other people's > proprietary stuff ... Tony P, I'm not trying to close the door so much as note that the door is open and try to get the door manufacturer to mention the width and height of the door... :-) Ran _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 06:02:12 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA19045 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6D9cPt30254; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.juniper.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6D9Npt30162 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iesg-secretary@ietf.org) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by colo-rojo.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6D9jVot089431 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from btmail.net.cn ([202.106.196.71]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:31:36 -0700 Received: from btmail.net.cn([202.106.196.73]) by btamail.net.cn(JetMail 2.5.3.0) with SMTP id jm363d305438; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:31:34 -0000 Received: from loki.ietf.org([132.151.1.177]) by btamail.net.cn(JetMail 2.5.3.0) with SMTP id jm10c3d2b3b67; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:31:08 -0000 Received: (from adm@localhost) by loki.ietf.org (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA24893 for ietf-123-outbound.01@ietf.org; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [10.27.2.28]) by loki.ietf.org (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA24494 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21811; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207091227.IAA21811@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: RFC Editor , Internet Architecture Board , isis-wg@juniper.net From: The IESG X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2002 09:31:36.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[157589D0:01C22A50] X-Not-Spam: Spam Score: 1.1 - TO_MALFORMED X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] Document Action: Three-Way Handshake for IS-IS Point-to-Point Adjacencies to Informational Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:27:28 -0400 The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'Three-Way Handshake for IS-IS Point-to-Point Adjacencies' as an Informational RFC. This document is the product of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alex Zinin and Bill Fenner. Technical Summary The document introduces a backward-compatible extension to the IS-IS routing protocol that ensures two-way connectivity on point-to-point links through a three-way handshaking mechanism. The document also extends the protocol to support more than 256 point-to-point links per router. Working Group Summary There was support for this document in the WG. All comments brought up during the WG Last Call have been addressed. Protocol Quality Alex Zinin has reviewed the specification for the IESG. The mechanisms described in the document have been implemented by multiple router vendors and have been widely deployed in the Internet. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 10:41:06 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24980 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DEIXt34452; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5IKU1t20420 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Manral, Vishwas'" , Jeff Parker , "'Joyal, Daniel R (Daniel)'" Cc: "IS-IS-WG (E-mail)" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] IS-IS MIB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:14:00 -0400 > VM> Maybe the remaining lifetime could be given too. > Remaining lifetime is > used to identify an instance too, one with 0 Remaininglifetime and one > without are different instances. No. Two LSPs with different remaining lifetimes could be the same. The sequence number is what counts. - jdp _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 10:57:31 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25168 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DEYbt34572; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5IMLLt20917 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naiming@redback.com) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5IMeWX49836 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:38:38 -0700 Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D497E39B5BC; Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:40:27 -0700 (PDT) To: mike shand Cc: isis-wg@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt In-reply-to: Mail from mike shand dated Fri, 24 May 2002 09:20:07 BST <4.3.2.7.2.20020524091256.04406478@jaws.cisco.com> From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020618224027.D497E39B5BC@prattle.redback.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2002 22:38:39.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3EB7C70:01C21718] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:40:27 -0700 Mike, ] I have retained the non-timer resetting behavior of the RR IIH because I ] think it is useful in some cases but have noted that if you want the ] resetting behavior you can easily get this by sending a normal IIH once you ] have acquired the necessary circuit IDs etc. So the way it would work is ] that you would re-start and get back the remaining time on each adjacency. ] If this is plenty of time you just carry on as normal. If you feel you need ] more time (and you are configured to allow that), then you send an IIH with ] the required holding time. I still have problem of this. yes, you may be able to send out "normal" IIHs with large holdtime, but that's an extra step. i don't see much reasoning this step is needed; Also more importantly, you may not be able to send this "normal" IIH over a LAN unless you are sure you got all the neighbors without missing one. this is too much dependancy without benefit. I can understand you don't want to change the current tlv format, since it's out there for a while and there may be some implementations running which can cause incompatibility. I would say let's just keep this format. the helper still send back whatever it thinks the holdtime is for this adjacency. We at least need to say that, if the implementation choose to ignore the holdtime in the re-start IIH, it SHOULD offer a config knob so this can be disabled when needed. This way ISPs can make sure its consistant within the network. We have already seen some implementation does NOT ignore this holdtime at least for the first re-start IIH. ] ] Similarly, I have retained the retries, but said that you may ] configurea retry count of zero. This does not matter too much comparing to the above. this is basically a local implementation issue. Probably should mentioning the p2p vs LAN problems here. thanks. - Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 10:58:13 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25184 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DEZst34698; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5JBBFt24779 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5JBUMX61919 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:30:30 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.176]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:27:44 -0700 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13572; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200206191127.HAA13572@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; CC: isis-wg@juniper.net, ospf@discuss.microsoft.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jun 2002 11:27:44.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[54EE23D0:01C21784] Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:27:53 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Proposed Mechanisms for Congestion Control/Failure Recovery in OSPF & ISIS Networks Author(s) : J. Ash et al. Filename : draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt Pages : Date : 18-Jun-02 Earlier papers and contributions identified issues of congestion control and failure recovery for link-state protocol networks, such as OSPF, ISIS, and PNNI networks [maunder, choudhury, pappalardo1, pappalardo2, atm01-0101]. The problem addressed is to enable link-state protocols to a) gracefully recover from massive loss of topology database information, and b) respond gracefully to network overloads and failures. This contribution proposes specific additional considerations for network congestion control/failure recovery. Candidate mechanisms are proposed for control of network congestion and failure recovery, in particular we initially propose to investigate the following mechanisms: a) throttle new connection setups, topology-state updates, and Hello updates based on automatic congestion control mechanisms, b) special marking of critical control messages (e.g., Hello and topology-state-update Ack) so that they may receive prioritized processing, c) database backup, in which a topology database could be automatically recovered from loss based on local backup mechanisms, and d) hitless restart, which allows routes to continue to be used if there is an uninterrupted data path, even if the control path is interrupted due to a failure. We propose that the OSPF and ISIS working groups include the candidate mechanisms in an evaluation of congestion control/failure recovery for OSPF and ISIS networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020618132155.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ash-ospf-isis-congestion-control-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020618132155.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 11:13:12 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25542 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DEomt34965; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from hotmail.com (f200.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.200]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5K1I8t28487 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wongkent@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:37:27 -0700 Received: from 63.104.212.252 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:37:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.104.212.252] From: "Kent Wong" To: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net Cc: wongkent@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2002 01:37:27.0249 (UTC) FILETIME=[08D96410:01C217FB] Subject: [Isis-wg] More comments on draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:37:25 +0000 Hi, Sorry if you got this e-mail more than once. I have trouble sending the e-mail to the ISIS WG mailing list. Some more comments on the draft: 1. On page 8, the draft states that SPF should not be run when T3 is running. But on page 9, it says that if T3 expires before T2, the level which have not completed their first SPF run should generate LSP with OL bit set. But no level will run their SPF before T3 expires anyway. Should this be interpreted as "level of which T2 is still running should generate their LSP with OL bit set"? 2. Along the same line of thought, I still don't understand why we need two different timers T2 and T3. When T2 finishes, T3 would be cancelled anyway. The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is if it expires before T2, the restarting router is supposed to generate own LSP with OL bit set. However, this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. If not, what should the seq number it use to generate the zeroth LSP with OL bit set? If the seq num it uses in zeroth LSP is smaller than the nbr's DB copy, the zeroth LSP will be ignored by helper nbr anyway. So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer per level and set the timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbr. If the timer expires before the DB re-sync finishes, then graceful restart fails and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much much simpler and effective? Thanks. Kent Wong _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 11:14:15 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25562 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DEput35071; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from colo-rojo.juniper.net (rojo.juniper.net [207.17.137.35]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5K9Lgt30637 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from amir@cwnt.com) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by colo-rojo.juniper.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5K9f2D92392 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from smtp.cwnt.com ([192.116.246.129]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 20 Jun 2002 02:37:40 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] ISIS drafts status summary ... Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] ISIS drafts status summary ... Thread-Index: AcIWRKRbsiq25nnhTHiJym+udj7G6AB+NVTQ From: "Amir Hermelin" To: "Alex Zinin" , "Tony Przygienda" Cc: , "Alex Zinin" , "Bill Fenner" , "David Ward" , "Tony Li" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2002 09:37:40.0687 (UTC) FILETIME=[1EFF1DF0:01C2183E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by external.juniper.net id g5K9Lht30638 Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:38:55 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> 1. draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 last call ended >5/22/02. I still see comments on the list. >> From that I deduct last call is going on > >Amir and I exchanged a couple of messages off the list and I think the >discussion converged. Unless there were more comments besides mine, I >think we're expecting a new version. > I have an -01 version which only includes editorial changes and clarifications. Since the draft was on its way to AD already, what should I do with it (already sent to wg chairs)? -- Amir Hermelin < mailto:amir@cwnt.com> Charlotte's Web Networks Inc. < http://www.cwnt.com> _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sat Jul 13 12:47:43 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27448 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25318; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25290 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27183 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6DGYoC14966; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:34:50 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3055E8.1040801@net4u.ch> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:31:36 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RJ Atkinson CC: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers Security Considerati ons References: <62FCC36C-9634-11D6-BB06-00039357A82A@extremenetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RJ Atkinson wrote: > > On Friday, July 12, 2002, at 11:52 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > >> hmm, not saying this is incorrect but Ran may be trying to close >> the barn after the horse bolted. If I have the possiblity to inject >> information >> into the ISIS domain, I will just fake up topology in well-known format >> packets rather than going through the pains of faking other people's >> proprietary stuff ... > > > Tony P, > > I'm not trying to close the door so much as note that the door is open > and try to get the door manufacturer to mention the width and > height of the door... :-) Ran, point taken, my analogy was a tad strained. I agree with you and I deem to notice a (weak though) consensus to write things down. Thinking further, the proprietary TLV draft may not be the best guinea pig do achieve that. Maybe a separate 'Security considerations' draft is necessary that all coming out/future ISIS RFCs are obliged to point to (unless they open more holes) thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:19:05 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29308 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DHuZt36125; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5KJQtt33767 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zinin@psg.com) Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5KJkI1R005785 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:44:27 -0700 Received: from 12-234-73-224.client.attbi.com ([12.234.73.224]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17L7sl-000KBj-00; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:46:15 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1964104999.20020620124447@psg.com> To: "Amir Hermelin" CC: "Tony Przygienda" , isis-wg@juniper.net, "Alex Zinin" , "Bill Fenner" , "David Ward" , "Tony Li" Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] ISIS drafts status summary ... In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2002 19:44:27.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[E33DB880:01C21892] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:44:47 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amir, I could do a quick review to make sure we haven't forgotten anything and then you will need to send the new version to internet-drafts. -- Alex Thursday, June 20, 2002, 2:38:55 AM, you wrote: >>> 1. draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 last call ended >>5/22/02. I still see comments on the list. >>> From that I deduct last call is going on >> >>Amir and I exchanged a couple of messages off the list and I think the >>discussion converged. Unless there were more comments besides mine, I >>think we're expecting a new version. >> > I have an -01 version which only includes editorial changes and clarifications. Since the draft was on its way to AD already, what should I do with it (already sent to wg chairs)? > -- > Amir Hermelin < mailto:amir@cwnt.com> > Charlotte's Web Networks Inc. < http://www.cwnt.com> _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:34:59 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29827 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DICYt36290; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:12:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5KKGIt33988 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "IS-IS-WG (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] Alternative Multicast Addresses for IS-IS Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:35:31 -0400 10589 defined an alternative set of multicast MAC addresses to be used on Token Ring, and warned the administrator to use these addresses with caution. (8.4.8) The new draft of 10589 drops this section. The MIB includes a knob to pick which set of addresses to use. Does anyone use the Token Ring set, or can we drop this knob? - jeff parker - axiowave networks - "Error, No Keyboard - Press F1 to continue" _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:35:15 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29845 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DICqt36306; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:12:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5KKsWt34154 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from amir@cwnt.com) Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g5KLDX3d006890 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from smtp.cwnt.com ([192.116.246.129]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:11:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2189F.450E745A" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] ISIS drafts status summary ... Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] ISIS drafts status summary ... Thread-Index: AcIYkyTdoK8em+Y6TZS84F2Rw7rVLAADACsA From: "Amir Hermelin" To: "Alex Zinin" Cc: "Tony Przygienda" , , "Alex Zinin" , "Bill Fenner" , "David Ward" , "Tony Li" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2002 21:11:17.0565 (UTC) FILETIME=[0496BED0:01C2189F] Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 00:13:05 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2189F.450E745A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here 'ya go - since these are mostly editorial/clarifications, I hope we = don't go into another couple of months worth of last calling it = (technical comments were all done 'bout 3-4 months ago..) thanks. -- Amir Hermelin < mailto:amir@cwnt.com> Charlotte's Web Networks Inc. < http://www.cwnt.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: Alex Zinin [mailto:zinin@psg.com] >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:45 PM >To: Amir Hermelin >Cc: Tony Przygienda; isis-wg@juniper.net; Alex Zinin; Bill=20 >Fenner; David Ward; Tony Li >Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] ISIS drafts status summary ... > > >Amir, > > I could do a quick review to make sure we haven't > forgotten anything and then you will need to send > the new version to internet-drafts. > >--=20 >Alex > >Thursday, June 20, 2002, 2:38:55 AM, you wrote: >>>> 1. draft-ietf-isis-ext-lsp-frags-00 last call ended=20 >>>5/22/02. I still see comments on the list. >>>> From that I deduct last call is going on >>> >>>Amir and I exchanged a couple of messages off the list and I=20 >think the >>>discussion converged. Unless there were more comments besides mine, I >>>think we're expecting a new version. >>> > >> I have an -01 version which only includes editorial changes=20 >and clarifications. 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with ESMTP id g6DIDJt36514; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5LBHSt38471 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from ping.juniper.net (ping.juniper.net [207.17.137.101]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5LBatQF025412 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.176]) by ping.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:35:03 -0700 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07899; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200206211136.HAA07899@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: isis-wg@juniper.net From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2002 11:35:03.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF5AF070:01C21917] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 07:36:12 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : Recommendations for Interoperable IP Networks using IS-IS Author(s) : J. Parker Filename : draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt Pages : 20 Date : 20-Jun-02 In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is. Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut This document discusses a number of differences between the IS-IS protocol as described in ISO 10589 [1] and RFC 1195 [3] and the protocol as it is deployed today. These differences are discussed as a service to those implementing, testing, and deploying the IS-IS Protocol to route IP traffic. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020620141511.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020620141511.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:35:39 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29889 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DICvt36343; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5KMC9t34515 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jparker@axiowave.com) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "IS-IS-WG (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] Alternative Multicast Addresses for IS-IS Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:31:29 -0400 > > 10589 defined an alternative set of multicast MAC addresses > > to be used on Token Ring... Does anyone use the > > Token Ring set of addresses, or can we drop this knob? > > > > - jeff parker > This stemmed from the old TI chipset that did not support multicast > receive, but only "functional addresses." I haven't seen token ring > in years, but that doesn't mean that somebody isn't still using it... > > Dave Katz Thanks, Dave. So we should be able to support any Token Ring system that uses more recent chips? It doesn't sound like we need to keep this around. - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:35:52 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29926 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DID9t36430; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5L8Nqt37192 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:23:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mshand@cisco.com) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp4311.cisco.com [10.50.16.214]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09470; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:43:11 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020621093939.026916b8@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Kent Wong" From: mike shand Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Cc: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:43:09 +0100 At 18:39 18/06/2002 +0000, Kent Wong wrote: >Hi Mike and Russ, > >Thanks for your reply. I have a couple more comments on the draft: > >4. I don't understand why there is a need for two different timers >T2 and T3. Because when T2 expires/cancels before T3, T3 would be >cancelled anyway. When BOTH T2s have expired >The only case T3 is supposed to be useful is >when T3 expires before T2. The draft states that if T3 expires >before T2, router's own LSP for level which have not completed >their first SPF should be flooded with the OL bit set. > >However this assumes that the restarting router has acquired its >own pre-start LSP before T3 expires. What if T3 expires even before >it acquires its pre-start LSP? In that case, it doesn't know what >sequence number it should use in its zero LSP to set the OL bit. >If the seq num it uses is smaller than the seq num in its nbr's DB, >then the zero LSP will be ignored by the helper nbr anyway. No it won't, the neighbor will send back the latest version, and the restarting router will override it with the next highest value. >So why not just combine T2 and T3 into a single timer and set the >timer to be the min. remaining holding time of its nbrs. If the timer >expires before it DB re-sync, then graceful restart fails >and everything reverts back to normal. Isn't this much more simpler >and effective? Yes you could have a single timer for each level, which you set to the value of T3. If it goes off for either level, then you abort the whole thing (as if T3 had gone off). But I think that is rather harder to describe. >5. On section 4.3.1.1, the draft mentions the behavior of a router >when it starts for the first time. Does it mean this draft intends to >change the normal ISIS behavior even though it is not a restart? Yes, optionally. The idea is to get the equivalent of the OSPF adjacency start behaviour so that you avoid the black hole on startup problem. >That means we need to start T2 (but no T1, T3) for each level even >we start for the first time. However, it may not be desirable to set >the OL bit every time ISIS comes up. This should be decided by the >network admin on individual cases whether to set the OL bit or not. No you need T1 as well. The whole point is that you have a RELIABLE CSNP exchange, and so you can correctly determine when you are synchronized and hence clear the overload bit at the right time, rather than (as we do now) simply waiting for some time pulled out of the air. >6. Just for clarification, in the draft, it mentions "own" LSP >many times, sometimes it mention own non-pseudonode LSP, sometimes >it mention own LSP including pseudonode. Sometimes, it simply >mention "own" LSP. Should we interpret the "own" LSP as including >pseudonode LSP if it doesn't specify otherwise? Yes (hopefully). Mike >Thanks! > >Kent Wong > >>From: mike shand >>To: "Kent Wong" >>CC: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >>Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:29:48 +0100 >> >>At 22:25 17/06/2002 +0000, Kent Wong wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>I have some questions and comments on the isis restart draft: >>> >>>1. On Page 6 >>>"....a router MAY transmit one or more normal IIHs >>>(containing a restart option, but with RR and RA clear) after the >>>initial RR/RA exchange, but before synchronization has been >>>achieved, in order to extend the holding time of the neighbors >>>adjacencies, beyond that indicated in the remaining time field of >>>the neighbors IIH with the RA bit set." >>> >>>When a router does this, should it also extend T3 to be the new >>>holding time? Otherwise, even though we extend nbr's holding time >>>for the adjacency, T3 will still expire in a short time and LSP >>>with OL bit set will be generated and the graceful restart will >>>fail anyway. >> >>Yes. That was the assumption. Sorry that wasn't made clear. >> >> >>>2. Instead of sending normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange, >>>would it make more sense that if this is a planned restart, >>>a normal IIH with a large holding time is sent before the router >>>going down so that nbr will hold the adjacency until restarting >>>router finishes the complete restart procedure. In that way, there >>>is no need to send extra normal IIH after initial RR/RA exchange. >> >>Yes that is possible too. My take on this is that the protocol mechanisms >>described in the spec can be used in a variety of creative ways which do >>not necessarily need to be spelled out in the draft because they do not >>require explicit co-operation. This is an example of such a mechanism. >> >> >>>3. If T2 on both levels expires/cancelled, it means end of >>>database resync and if T3 is still running, we should cancel >>>T3 at this time. Is that correct? The draft did not say this explicitly. >> >>Yes. >> >>>Thanks. >>> >>>Kent Wong >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >>>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net >>>http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:36:40 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29956 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DIDEt36453; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5L8c0t37265 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mshand@cisco.com) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5L8ulR3021274 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.98.48]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:45:25 -0700 Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp4311.cisco.com [10.50.16.214]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09637; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:47:08 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020621094451.026ad460@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Naiming Shen From: mike shand Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt Cc: isis-wg@juniper.net In-Reply-To: <20020618224027.D497E39B5BC@prattle.redback.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020524091256.04406478@jaws.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2002 08:45:25.0709 (UTC) FILETIME=[FCD12FD0:01C218FF] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:46:54 +0100 At 15:40 18/06/2002 -0700, Naiming Shen wrote: >Mike, > > ] I have retained the non-timer resetting behavior of the RR IIH because I > ] think it is useful in some cases but have noted that if you want the > ] resetting behavior you can easily get this by sending a normal IIH > once you > ] have acquired the necessary circuit IDs etc. So the way it would work is > ] that you would re-start and get back the remaining time on each > adjacency. > ] If this is plenty of time you just carry on as normal. If you feel you > need > ] more time (and you are configured to allow that), then you send an IIH > with > ] the required holding time. > >I still have problem of this. yes, you may be able to send out "normal" >IIHs with large holdtime, but that's an extra step. i don't see much >reasoning this step is needed; Also more importantly, you may not be >able to send this "normal" IIH over a LAN unless you are sure you got >all the neighbors without missing one. this is too much dependancy >without benefit. > >I can understand you don't want to change the current tlv format, since >it's out there for a while and there may be some implementations running >which can cause incompatibility. I would say let's just keep this format. >the helper still send back whatever it thinks the holdtime is for this >adjacency. We at least need to say that, if the implementation choose >to ignore the holdtime in the re-start IIH, it SHOULD offer a config >knob so this can be disabled when needed. This way ISPs can make sure >its consistant within the network. We have already seen some >implementation does NOT ignore this holdtime at least for the first >re-start IIH. This seems reasonable. So we return the actual holding time with the RA and use the minimum of those as the time we have left to get re-synched. That way it doesn't matter whether a neighbor resets the adjacency holding time or not. AS long as it tells us the result we are cool. Mike > ] > ] Similarly, I have retained the retries, but said that you may > ] configurea retry count of zero. > >This does not matter too much comparing to the above. this is basically >a local implementation issue. Probably should mentioning the p2p vs >LAN problems here. > >thanks. >- Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:36:44 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29968 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DIDqt36882; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from mail4.nec.com (dns4.nec.com [131.241.15.4]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OIZZt64046 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com) Received: from netkeeper.sj.nec.com (netkeeper.sj.nec.com [131.241.31.2]) by mail4.nec.com (/) with ESMTP id g5OItMK00879 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from necsun.tdd.sj.nec.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netkeeper.sj.nec.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02878 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunny.tdd.sj.nec.com by necsun.tdd.sj.nec.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OImwf18598 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ems11 (ems11 [131.241.5.62]) by bunny.tdd.sj.nec.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g5OImv0x008399 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:58:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01C21B76.85268420.ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com> From: ramanathan rams Reply-To: "ramsrm@tdd.sj.nec.com" To: "isis-wg@spider.juniper.net" Organization: NEC X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 20 TEXT Subject: [Isis-wg] doubts Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:58:55 -0700 hi all, could u please explain me the following doubts? In the ISIS extensions for TE draft, * IPV4 Address sub TLV gives the IPv4 Address of the interface described by the main TLV. Main TLV is IS extended reachability TLV. And IS extended reachability describes about the link to the neighbour. So the IPv4 Address of the interface described is the IPv4 Address of the neighbour. is this right? if so, what does the IPv4 neighbour address sub TLV describe? * we have IP reachability TLV also. Could u please explain me the reason why all the TE properties sub TLVs are added to IS reachability TLV rather than IP reachability TLV?. thanks rams. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Sat Jul 13 14:36:52 2002 Received: from external.juniper.net (spider.juniper.net [207.17.137.40]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29980 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spider.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6DIDwt36927; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net) Received: from pinot.juniper.net (pinot.juniper.net [207.17.137.58]) by external.juniper.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OJiQt64364 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naiming@redback.com) X-JNPR-Received-From: outside Received: from pong.juniper.net (pong.juniper.net [207.17.137.102]) by pinot.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5OK4ERd003776 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by pong.juniper.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:02:20 -0700 Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D0839B5A3; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:04:14 -0700 (PDT) To: mike shand Cc: isis-wg@juniper.net Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-restart-01.txt In-reply-to: Mail from mike shand dated Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:46:54 BST <4.3.2.7.2.20020621094451.026ad460@jaws.cisco.com> From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020624200414.03D0839B5A3@prattle.redback.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2002 20:02:20.0707 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C7B4F30:01C21BBA] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@spider.juniper.net X-BeenThere: isis-wg@spider.juniper.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0rc1 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:04:13 -0700 ] At 15:40 18/06/2002 -0700, Naiming Shen wrote: ] ] >Mike, ] > ] > ] I have retained the non-timer resetting behavior of the RR IIH because I ] > ] think it is useful in some cases but have noted that if you want the ] > ] resetting behavior you can easily get this by sending a normal IIH ] > once you ] > ] have acquired the necessary circuit IDs etc. So the way it would work i s ] > ] that you would re-start and get back the remaining time on each ] > adjacency. ] > ] If this is plenty of time you just carry on as normal. If you feel you ] > need ] > ] more time (and you are configured to allow that), then you send an IIH ] > with ] > ] the required holding time. ] > ] >I still have problem of this. yes, you may be able to send out "normal" ] >IIHs with large holdtime, but that's an extra step. i don't see much ] >reasoning this step is needed; Also more importantly, you may not be ] >able to send this "normal" IIH over a LAN unless you are sure you got ] >all the neighbors without missing one. this is too much dependancy ] >without benefit. ] > ] >I can understand you don't want to change the current tlv format, since ] >it's out there for a while and there may be some implementations running ] >which can cause incompatibility. I would say let's just keep this format. ] >the helper still send back whatever it thinks the holdtime is for this ] >adjacency. We at least need to say that, if the implementation choose ] >to ignore the holdtime in the re-start IIH, it SHOULD offer a config ] >knob so this can be disabled when needed. This way ISPs can make sure ] >its consistant within the network. We have already seen some ] >implementation does NOT ignore this holdtime at least for the first ] >re-start IIH. ] ] This seems reasonable. So we return the actual holding time with the RA and ] use the minimum of those as the time we have left to get re-synched. That ] way it doesn't matter whether a neighbor resets the adjacency holding time ] or not. AS long as it tells us the result we are cool. exactly. thanks. ] ] Mike ] ] ] > ] ] > ] Similarly, I have retained the retries, but said that you may ] > ] configurea retry count of zero. ] > ] >This does not matter too much comparing to the above. this is basically ] >a local implementation issue. Probably should mentioning the p2p vs ] >LAN problems here. ] > ] >thanks. ] >- Naiming ] - Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list - Isis-wg@spider.juniper.net http://spider.juniper.net/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sun Jul 14 01:09:37 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15322 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24786; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24755 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from psg.com (smmsp@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA14989 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17TbRG-0000dK-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:56:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:56:14 +0900 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <13911128351.20020714135614@psg.com> To: mike shand CC: "Philip Christian" , "'Jeff Learman'" , Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712164908.043bf148@jaws.cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020712164908.043bf148@jaws.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saturday, July 13, 2002, 12:58:46 AM, mike shand wrote: ... > What we want to discourage is using this technique to implement a > generalised reliable multicast service usable by an application. A > mis-design like that could end up sending several thousand bytes per > second. That is emphatically NOT what IS-IS should be used for. Amen! Alex _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sun Jul 14 22:41:50 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA26930 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA10150; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA10114 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com (hiddenuser@prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA26846 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866D84483FE; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:40:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Neal Castagnoli Cc: "'Naiming Shen'" , Philip Christian , "'mike shand'" , Jeff Learman , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? In-reply-to: Mail from Neal Castagnoli dated Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:39:44 PDT Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:40:49 -0700 From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020715024049.866D84483FE@prattle.redback.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org ] ] > From: Naiming Shen [mailto:naiming@redback.com] ] ] > recalculate when some irrelavant information changes. for example, ] > some TE bandwidth info change in LSPs WILL NOT cause a reasonable ] ^^^^ ] > implementation to rerun SPF. ] ] Naiming, ] ] ] I think this is implementation dependent, and you can have reasonable ] implementations that run SPF whenever there is a change to the LSP's ] variable part or other relevent fields. ] ] Some might say the complexity and potential attendant error in suppressing ] SPF runs isn't worth it. There is a very high cost to incorrectly ] suppressing an SPF (routing loops, etc), and so if the time to run SPF is ] low enough, perhaps you are better of just doing it. ] ] Meanwhile, if the implementation's SPF takes an unacceptably long time, then ] perhaps the added complexity is worth it. Yes. this is an implementation issue. I was only refering to the assumption should not be made that any change inside LSPs WILL automatically trigger the calculation. If an implementation choose to constantly run the calculation even without any change, which would be fine too. actually that would further simplify the protocol issue... thanks. - Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sun Jul 14 23:40:18 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA28596 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA14068; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA14038 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA28429 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6F3bnC06781; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:37:49 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3242BB.9010903@net4u.ch> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:34:19 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Naiming Shen CC: Neal Castagnoli , Philip Christian , "'mike shand'" , Jeff Learman , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? References: <20020715024049.866D84483FE@prattle.redback.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Naiming Shen wrote: > ] > ] > From: Naiming Shen [mailto:naiming@redback.com] > ] > ] > recalculate when some irrelavant information changes. for example, > ] > some TE bandwidth info change in LSPs WILL NOT cause a reasonable > ] ^^^^ > ] > implementation to rerun SPF. > ] > ] Naiming, > ] > ] > ] I think this is implementation dependent, and you can have reasonable > ] implementations that run SPF whenever there is a change to the LSP's > ] variable part or other relevent fields. > ] > ] Some might say the complexity and potential attendant error in suppressing > ] SPF runs isn't worth it. There is a very high cost to incorrectly > ] suppressing an SPF (routing loops, etc), and so if the time to run SPF is > ] low enough, perhaps you are better of just doing it. > ] > ] Meanwhile, if the implementation's SPF takes an unacceptably long time, then > ] perhaps the added complexity is worth it. > >Yes. this is an implementation issue. I was only refering to the >assumption should not be made that any change inside LSPs WILL >automatically trigger the calculation. If an implementation choose >to constantly run the calculation even without any change, which would >be fine too. actually that would further simplify the protocol >issue... > yep, that's purely implementation, not up to us to standardize. Everyone here violently agrees. The section could read .e.g 'MAY choose to not rerun SPF' ... thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 15 11:21:10 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08044 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01455; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01424 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM (Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM [63.165.80.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07805 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.adtech-inc.com (apollo.adtech-inc.com [10.12.0.17]) by Thor.Adtech-Inc.COM (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6FFG789024379 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:16:07 -1000 (HST) Received: by apollo.adtech-inc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <364KN24Q>; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:22:49 -1000 Message-ID: <8AC36D3167EED41184C800508BD9540502DD6BA9@apollo.adtech-inc.com> From: "Chan, Chung Ming" To: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:22:48 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] RE: Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Hi, I'm running a test on how an ISIS implementation handles different kinds of encoding errors. One of such errors is unknown version number. Since the current Version/Protocol ID Extension and Version fields in the ISIS PDU fixed headers are set to one (1), so if an ISIS implementation receive a PDU with different values, how should the receiving ISIS router handle the PDU? Should it just ignores/discards the PDU or act on the PDU if somehow it can decode *some*/*most* of the information out? I've two implementations in the lab ignore/discard the PDU and one response to the received PDU. Please, advise! Thanks, C. Ming Chan _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 15 11:42:48 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08817 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03334; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03304 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08746 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6FFfQQg003761; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABX24709; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020715113236.01a90038@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:40:50 -0400 To: "Chan, Chung Ming" From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] RE: Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" In-Reply-To: <8AC36D3167EED41184C800508BD9540502DD6BA9@apollo.adtech-inc .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org The most appropriate use for a version/protocol ID field is to introduce a completely new version of the protocol (like IPV4 vs. IPV6.) Off the top of my head, best practice would be to discard PDUs with an unrecognized VPID. This is the behavior that would be expected by an OSI conformance test. Conformance tests haven't been found to be very useful in practice, and I doubt much conformance testing is going on for IP-based implementations. An implementation should NOT assume it can understand any of the rest of the packet if it does not recognize the VPID. Doing so would make the VPID even less useful for future work than it already is. Extensions to IS-IS have been done exclusively through the use of defining new TLVs, given that the semantics for an unrecognized TLV is to ignore it but propagate it. This has proven to be a very useful mechanism. Regards, Jeff Note: I do not work in IS-IS at Cisco, and my opinions may not reflect those of my employer. At 11:22 AM 7/15/2002, Chan, Chung Ming wrote: >Hi, > I'm running a test on how an ISIS implementation handles different >kinds of encoding errors. > > One of such errors is unknown version number. > >Since the current Version/Protocol ID Extension and Version fields in the >ISIS PDU fixed headers are set to one (1), >so if an ISIS implementation receive a PDU with different values, how should >the receiving ISIS router handle the PDU? > >Should it just ignores/discards the PDU or act on the PDU if somehow it can >decode *some*/*most* of the information out? > >I've two implementations in the lab ignore/discard the PDU and one response >to the received PDU. > >Please, advise! > > >Thanks, > > >C. Ming Chan > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list >Isis-wg@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 15 11:58:10 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09406 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04104; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04078 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09300 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6FFwIC19001; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:58:18 +0200 Message-ID: <3D32F045.10904@net4u.ch> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 08:54:45 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Learman CC: "Chan, Chung Ming" , "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] RE: Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020715113236.01a90038@dingdong.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Learman wrote: >The most appropriate use for a version/protocol ID field is to >introduce a completely new version of the protocol (like IPV4 vs. >IPV6.) Off the top of my head, best practice would be to discard >PDUs with an unrecognized VPID. This is the behavior that would >be expected by an OSI conformance test. Conformance tests haven't >been found to be very useful in practice, and I doubt much >conformance testing is going on for IP-based implementations. > Discard PDU, anything else is just asking for major trouble. Equivalent to someone speaking italian to you (assuming you don't speak italian ;-) and you trying to parse it as English. Some sounds may be similar but your chance of having a meaningfull conversation is basically nil. -- tony > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 15 12:35:58 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10792 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02866; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02835 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [144.254.98.48]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08496 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mshand-w2k.cisco.com (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp4149.cisco.com [10.50.16.52]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26199; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:34:33 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020715162352.044f15e8@jaws.cisco.com> X-Sender: mshand@jaws.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:34:32 +0100 To: "Chan, Chung Ming" From: mike shand Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] RE: Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Cc: "'isis-wg@ietf.org'" In-Reply-To: <8AC36D3167EED41184C800508BD9540502DD6BA9@apollo.adtech-inc .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Discard the PDU. It should NOT attempt to decode it, because we would not move to a different version unless the new format were not interpretable by a V1 system. What I would expect to happen would be that a V2 system would notice that it was attempting to form an adjacency with a V1 system, and modify its behaviour accordingly. I would imaging that over a "migration" period it would be necessary to flood both V1 and V2 LSPs. But this is all guesswork, since we haven't yet defined a V2 PDU type (not to be confused with what is sometimes called ISO/IEC 10589 V2, which of course still uses V1 PDU types.) I suspect we never will. Mike At 05:22 15/07/2002 -1000, Chan, Chung Ming wrote: >Hi, > I'm running a test on how an ISIS implementation handles different >kinds of encoding errors. > > One of such errors is unknown version number. > >Since the current Version/Protocol ID Extension and Version fields in the >ISIS PDU fixed headers are set to one (1), >so if an ISIS implementation receive a PDU with different values, how should >the receiving ISIS router handle the PDU? > >Should it just ignores/discards the PDU or act on the PDU if somehow it can >decode *some*/*most* of the information out? > >I've two implementations in the lab ignore/discard the PDU and one response >to the received PDU. > >Please, advise! > > >Thanks, > > >C. Ming Chan > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list >Isis-wg@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 18 05:30:27 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA26693 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA20278; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA20248 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Mistralsoftware.com (ptil-243-146-ban.primus-india.net [203.196.146.243] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA26645 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aravindr [192.168.15.24] by mistralsoftware.com [192.168.10.12] with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v5.0.0.R) for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:12:22 +0530 Message-ID: <001001c22e3e$2217a460$180fa8c0@aravindr> From: "ARAVIND R" To: Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:03:11 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.15.24 X-Return-Path: aravindr@mistralsoftware.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] IP interface TLV in LSPs Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have a doubt regarding the interpretation of the following paragraph in section 3.1 of rfc 1195 "In some cases, it will be useful for IP-capable routers to be able to determine an IP address(es) of all other routers at their level (i.e., for level 1 routers: all other routers in their area; for level 2 routers: all other level 2 routers in the routing domain). This is useful whenever an IP packet is to be sent to a router, such as for encapsulation or for transmission of network management packets. This information is made available by inclusion of IP address in LSPs. Specifically, each IS-IS LSP includes one or more IP addresses of the router which transmits the LSP. An IP-capable router is required to include at least one of its IP addresses in its LSPs, and may optionally in-clude several or all of its IP addresses. Where a single router operates as both a level 1 and a level 2 router, it is required to include the same IP address(es) in its level 1 and level 2 LSPs." Do this mean that the chosen IP address/addresses needs/need to be included in each LSP generated by the IS? or Will it be sufficient to include it in only one LSP(say LSP 0) ? Thanks Aravind _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 18 11:57:00 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05977 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18003; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA17970 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05846 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6IFrfr3007070; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-83-133.cisco.com [64.102.83.133]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABY03309; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020718114332.037c7768@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:47:54 -0400 To: "ARAVIND R" From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] IP interface TLV in LSPs Cc: In-Reply-To: <001001c22e3e$2217a460$180fa8c0@aravindr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org >Will it be sufficient to include it in only one LSP(say LSP 0) ? Yes. It should not be repeated in other LSP segments. (Note that this can appear to happen, if the TLV "moves" between segments, so it's not strictly illegal.) Jeff At 05:33 AM 7/18/2002, ARAVIND R wrote: >Hi, > >I have a doubt regarding the interpretation of the following paragraph in >section 3.1 of rfc 1195 > >"In some cases, it will be useful for IP-capable routers to be able to >determine an IP address(es) of >all other routers at their level (i.e., for level 1 routers: all other >routers in their area; for level 2 >routers: all other level 2 routers in the routing domain). This is useful >whenever an IP packet is to >be sent to a router, such as for encapsulation or for transmission of >network management packets. >This information is made available by inclusion of IP address in LSPs. >Specifically, each IS-IS >LSP includes one or more IP addresses of the router which transmits the LSP. >An IP-capable >router is required to include at least one of its IP addresses in its LSPs, >and may optionally in-clude >several or all of its IP addresses. Where a single router operates as both a >level 1 and a level >2 router, it is required to include the same IP address(es) in its level 1 >and level 2 LSPs." > > >Do this mean that the chosen IP address/addresses needs/need to be included >in >each LSP generated by the IS? > > or > >Will it be sufficient to include it in only one LSP(say LSP 0) ? > >Thanks >Aravind > > > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list >Isis-wg@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 22 12:13:25 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09861 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA03869; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA03822 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09634 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Chan, Chung Ming'" , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:11:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > One of such errors is unknown version number. I am surprised that we didn't add this to the list of things to check in draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt. I will add to my to-do list. - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 22 12:36:31 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13217 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22972; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA22926 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12855 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Chan, Chung Ming'" , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Unknown Version/ Protocol ID Extension Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > One of such errors is unknown version number. > > Since the current Version/Protocol ID Extension and Version > fields in the > ISIS PDU fixed headers are set to one (1), > so if an ISIS implementation receive a PDU with different > values, how should > the receiving ISIS router handle the PDU? Looking a bit further... The current mib includes a notification to be sent when getting such an error. It assumes that we would see this only in a hello packet, which is a valid assumption if 1) the implementation uses the same version throughout 2) the field isn't smashed in transit in, say, an LSP No distinction is made between the two different version fields. Since the PDU header is included, any difference in values is visible to the recipient of the trap. - jeff parker - axiowave networks isisVersionSkew NOTIFICATION-TYPE OBJECTS { isisProtocolVersion, isisSystemLevel, isisPDUFragment, isisCircIfIndex } STATUS current DESCRIPTION "A notification sent when we receive a Hello PDU from an IS running a different version of the protocol. This notification includes the header of the packet, which may help a network manager identify the source of the confusion. This should be an edge-triggered notification. We should not send a second notification about PDUs received from what seem to be the same source. This decision is up to the agent to make, and may be based on the circuit or on some MAC level information." ::= { isisTrapPrefix 11 } _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 22 16:42:10 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07247 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA12133; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA12071 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rchss002.chiaro.com (rchss002.chiaro.com [63.88.196.82]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA07093 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6246 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2002 20:34:24 -0000 Received: from rchss002.chiaro.com (HELO mail.chiaro.com) (63.88.196.82) by rchss002.chiaro.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2002 20:34:24 -0000 Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:38:31 -0500 Message-ID: From: Laura Liu To: Jeff Parker , isis-wg@ietf.org Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:38:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_IS_MIME_Boundary" Subject: [Isis-wg] isisManualAddressDrops trap Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello Jeff, In draft-ietf-isis-wg-mib-08.txt, the description of isisManualAddressDrops trap are: DESCRIPTION "This notification is generated when one of the manual areaAddresses assigned to this system is ignored when computing routes. The object isisManAreaAddrExistState describes the area that has been dropped. I can think of two possible case that a manual areaAddress being dropped. One is the manual areaAddr could not being added to the Union areaAddr set due to the limit of maximuAreaAdresses. Another is during SPF, a peer's manual area address was not used for L1 reachable routes. which one the trap referring to? thanks, Laura --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------- (on Chiaro SMTP Relay) This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are the property of Chiaro Networks, Ltd., and may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) to whom this e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipient(s), or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. --------------------------------------------------------- --=_IS_MIME_Boundary-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 22 16:47:57 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07791 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13620; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13585 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07365 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:43:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Laura Liu'" , Jeff Parker , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] isisManualAddressDrops trap Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:43:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > isisManualAddressDrops > DESCRIPTION > "This notification is generated when one of the > manual areaAddresses assigned to this system is > ignored when computing routes. The object > isisManAreaAddrExistState describes the area that > has been dropped. > > One is the manual areaAddr could not being added to the Union > areaAddr set due to the limit of maximuAreaAdresses. Another > is during SPF, a peer's manual area address was not used for > L1 reachable routes. > > which one the trap referring to? The first. - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 05:01:05 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA03989 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 05:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA24345; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA24316 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA03899 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 04:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from there (dhcp-bru-peg1-vl18-144-254-2-43.cisco.com [144.254.2.43]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id g6N8x6h18912; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:59:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200207230859.g6N8x6h18912@strange-brew.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: stefano previdi To: Naiming Shen , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:59:01 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by optimus.ietf.org id EAA24317 Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Naiming, just a few comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology. > 9. MT SPF Computation > > Each MT MUST run its own instance of the decision process. > The LSP overload bit and pseudo-node LSPs are used by all topologies > during computation. Reverse connectivity check within SPF MUST > follow the according MT to assure the bi-directional reachability. > The results of each computation MUST be stored in a separate RIB, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > otherwise overlapping addresses in different topologies could > lead to undesirable routing behavior such as forwarding loops. I believe that use of overlapping addresses will require more than just separate RIBs. When the router will receive an IP packet, it will have to use some other mechanisms (than just IP destination address lookup) in order to determine which RIB it has to use to forward such packet (especially when you play with multiple topologies in the same address family). Therefore I found the following statement: "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" a bit extreme and not totally correct. It's not needed in all cases and, in the cases where it's needed (assuming overlapping addresses are used), it's not enough to ensure correct forwarding. Of course if you use a separate set of adjacencies/interfaces for each topology, then you're safe... but this means a complete overlay network and I believe it's not the scope of the MT-ISIS draft... So, I would suggest to drop the "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" and add a more generic statement saying that if multiple RIBs are used (because of overlapping addresses), then the forwarding layer MUST have a mechanism allowing correct RIB selection for incoming packets. > 9.1 Generic MT SPF (GSPF) for Network Management [...] > Implementations SHOULD allow the administrator to control the > setting of MT Management Color to specific prefixes of the router > and the setting of Generic MT SPF to install the MT Mangement > colored routes into specific RIB. It is recommended for the > administrator's to ensure consistent configuration of all routers > in the domain to prevent undesirable forwarding behavior. #### Same here. If you use unique addresses for your management MT, then you don't need a separate RIB. Otherwise you also need the forwarding layer to decide which RIB to use.... and in this particular case it's not trivial. #### s. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 08:08:15 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07317 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA04349; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA04318 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07114; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207231206.IAA07114@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:06:06 -0400 Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : IS-IS Automatic Encapsulation Author(s) : P. Christian Filename : draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt Pages : 22 Date : 22-Jul-02 RFC 1195 [1] documents a dual routing protocol that can be used to route both CLNP and IPv4, that is Integrated IS-IS. Integrated IS- IS can now also be used to route IPv6 [12]. RFC 1195 [1] places certain topological restrictions on networks that are routed using Integrated IS-IS, specifically that every Intermediate System in a level-1 area must be able to forward all network layer protocols that are present in that area, and that every level-2 Intermediate System must be able to forward all network layer protocols present in the routing domain. The mechanism described in this document enables an Intermediate System or a group of Intermediate Systems that do not support a particular network layer protocol to be used in a level-1 area or level-2 subdomain where that network layer protocol is present. Specifically the mechanism provides automatic encapsulation and unencapsulation so that a packet or PDU may pass through an Intermediate System that would not normally be able to forward that type of packet. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020722134346.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020722134346.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 08:56:27 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09546 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA07214; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:53:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA07185 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h2s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09278 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6NCqR601610 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:52:27 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:52:27 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB7A9@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: isis-wg@ietf.org Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:52:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C23247.C8641D0A" Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C23247.C8641D0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mike Shand and myself have already found one problem with this draft as it is. If you look at page 12 of http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt you will see "4.The dual automatic encapsulating IS might be elected DIS both by the IPv4 ISs and by the IPv6 ISs; in this case it MUST create two separate pseudonodes. One of the pseudonodes MUST declare adjacencies with all IPv4-capable ISs on the LAN, and the other pseudonode must declare adjacencies with all-IPv6 capable ISs on the LAN. Both pseudonodes MUST declare an adjacency with the dual automatic encapsulating IS, and with any other dual ISs on the LAN." In fact this is not possible. ISs that are not DIS learn the ID of the pseudonode from the LAN ID of Hellos from the DIS (I had not appreciated this when I wrote the draft). They use the LAN ID to derive the ID of the pseudonode so that they can mention the pseudonode in their LSPs. The problem is that the automatic encapsulating IS can only send out one LAN ID in Hellos, so it can therefore support only one Pseudonode. The clause that says this in ISO 10589 is towards the end of 8.4.5. The consequence of this is that the automatic encapsulation IS will only create one pseudonode even if both "subLANs" elect it. Either all of the other ISs on the LAN had better conform to ISO/IEC 10589 section C.2.5 item "h", or, the priority of any ISs that don't must be higher than the automatic encapsulation IS. Unless anyone can think of anything better.... I will fix this and do an -01.txt Basically I will just use the G.7712 Annex B method which is correct as it is. Philip ------_=_NextPart_001_01C23247.C8641D0A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-00.txt

Mike Shand and myself have already found one problem = with this draft as it is.

If you look at page 12 of
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-au= to-encap-00.txt you will
see

"4.The dual automatic encapsulating IS might be = elected DIS both by
   the IPv4 ISs and by the IPv6 ISs; in = this case it MUST create two
   separate pseudonodes. One of the = pseudonodes MUST declare
   adjacencies with all IPv4-capable ISs = on the LAN, and the other
   pseudonode must declare adjacencies = with all-IPv6 capable ISs on
   the LAN.  Both pseudonodes MUST = declare an adjacency with the
   dual automatic encapsulating IS, and = with any other dual ISs on
   the LAN."

In fact this is not possible.

ISs that are not DIS learn the ID of the pseudonode = from the LAN ID of Hellos
from the DIS (I had not appreciated this when I = wrote the draft).

They use the LAN ID to derive the ID of the = pseudonode so that they can mention
the pseudonode in their LSPs.

The problem is that the automatic encapsulating IS = can only send out one LAN ID
in Hellos, so it can therefore support only one = Pseudonode.

The clause that says this in ISO 10589 is towards the = end of 8.4.5.

The consequence of this is that the automatic = encapsulation IS will only create
one pseudonode even if both "subLANs" = elect it.

Either all of the other ISs on the LAN had better = conform to ISO/IEC 10589
section C.2.5 item "h", or, the priority = of any ISs that don't must be higher
than the automatic encapsulation IS.

Unless anyone can think of anything better....

I will fix this and do an -01.txt
Basically I will just use the G.7712 Annex B method = which is correct as it is.

Philip

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23247.C8641D0A-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 11:35:26 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18249 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18713; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18681 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA17630 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sydney.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.16]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05761 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:29:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sr1-ubur-03 (sr1-ubur-03 [129.148.9.82]) by sydney.East.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with SMTP id g6NFTKL09068 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207231529.g6NFTKL09068@sydney.East.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:29:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking Reply-To: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking To: isis-wg@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: ujqYWAKlqwK8k06d3NegYg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc Subject: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org I wasn't in Yokohama. But here's an extract from the IPsec WG minutes: >>Steve Bellovin, Security Area Director, strongly commented that any drafts >>that contained specific vendor extensions would cause the IESG to be >>concerned and may even cause it to be rejected. He states this in his >>capacity of Area Director, not as a co-author of the JFK draft. Does anyone know what this is about? I'd imagine that IESG might be annoyed at certain companies claiming they're using a standard, but using private extensions that make things noninteroperable. But as Philip's "TLV for Proprietary Use" draft so eloquently says, extensibility has turned out to be really powerful. So is the IESG saying that TLV's should be illegal unless each "T" is assigned by IANA? Or that there will be no more TLV extensible protocols, or what? Anyway, if that snippet from the IPsec minutes is accurate, perhaps there will be a problem with getting this spec through the IESG. Radia _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 11:37:44 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18447 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19836; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19804 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from celox-ma1-ems1.celoxnetworks.com (celox-ma1-imap1.celoxnetworks.com [12.40.60.233]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18275 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by celox-ma1-ems1.celoxnetworks.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3T6K1NMJ>; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:36:05 -0400 Message-ID: <1117F7D44159934FB116E36F4ABF221B02267173@celox-ma1-ems1.celoxnetworks.com> From: "Gray, Eric" To: "'Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking'" Cc: "'IS-IS Working Group'" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:36:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Radia, I think the issue is that anyone defining a TLV extension needs to consider security implications of its misuse. It may be the case that protocols that define TLV extensibility should probably talk about what kinds of security implications anyone extending the protocol needs to consider. Eric W. Gray Systems Architect Celox Networks, Inc. egray@celoxnetworks.com 508 305 7214 -----Original Message----- From: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking [mailto:Radia.Perlman@sun.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:29 AM To: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? I wasn't in Yokohama. But here's an extract from the IPsec WG minutes: >>Steve Bellovin, Security Area Director, strongly commented that any drafts >>that contained specific vendor extensions would cause the IESG to be >>concerned and may even cause it to be rejected. He states this in his >>capacity of Area Director, not as a co-author of the JFK draft. Does anyone know what this is about? I'd imagine that IESG might be annoyed at certain companies claiming they're using a standard, but using private extensions that make things noninteroperable. But as Philip's "TLV for Proprietary Use" draft so eloquently says, extensibility has turned out to be really powerful. So is the IESG saying that TLV's should be illegal unless each "T" is assigned by IANA? Or that there will be no more TLV extensible protocols, or what? Anyway, if that snippet from the IPsec minutes is accurate, perhaps there will be a problem with getting this spec through the IESG. Radia _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 12:10:13 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20666 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24360; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24331 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20435 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (gw.xebeo.com [204.192.44.242]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6NG9vV30553; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:09:57 +0200 Message-ID: <3D3D7D8E.3060108@net4u.ch> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:00:14 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stefano previdi CC: Naiming Shen , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology References: <200207230859.g6N8x6h18912@strange-brew.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stefano previdi wrote: >Hi Naiming, > >just a few comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology. > >>9. MT SPF Computation >> >> Each MT MUST run its own instance of the decision process. >> The LSP overload bit and pseudo-node LSPs are used by all topologies >> during computation. Reverse connectivity check within SPF MUST >> follow the according MT to assure the bi-directional reachability. >> The results of each computation MUST be stored in a separate RIB, >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> otherwise overlapping addresses in different topologies could >> lead to undesirable routing behavior such as forwarding loops. >> > >I believe that use of overlapping addresses will require more than just >separate RIBs. When the router will receive an IP packet, it will have to use >some other mechanisms (than just IP destination address lookup) in order to >determine which RIB it has to use to forward such packet (especially when you >play with multiple topologies in the same address family). > >Therefore I found the following statement: "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" >a bit extreme and not totally correct. It's not needed in all cases and, in >the cases where it's needed (assuming overlapping addresses are used), it's >not enough to ensure correct forwarding. > Stefano, here's my opinion modulo Naiming's one In a sense, what you say is correct, if you read the 'MUST' as an implementation guideline. The intention was to say 'provides equivalent functionality to multiple RIBs'. A better wording, however not to 'bloated', welcome. I would however strongly disagree to even suggest that things can be stored in the 'same' RIB in some special cases. Just too messy ... As to overlaping address spaces, I agree that the draft is not enough but anything more (e.g. looking at stripped labels or other stuff to decide between RIBs) is out of the scope of this document. >Of course if you use a separate set of adjacencies/interfaces for each >topology, then you're safe... but this means a complete overlay network and I >believe it's not the scope of the MT-ISIS draft... > nope >So, I would suggest to drop the "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" and add a >more generic statement saying that if multiple RIBs are used (because of >overlapping addresses), then the forwarding layer MUST have a mechanism >allowing correct RIB selection for incoming packets. > again, better wording welcome and IMHO the mechanism can be hinted at but it is outside the scope. -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 14:51:01 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28843 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07292; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07263 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28600 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6NIkQDY019653; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn2-543.cisco.com [10.82.242.31]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABY90331; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020723143730.0224ae60@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:37:53 -0400 To: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200207231529.g6NFTKL09068@sydney.East.Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Perhaps we should ask Steve. Anyone have his address? Jeff At 11:29 AM 7/23/2002, Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking wrote: >I wasn't in Yokohama. But here's an extract from the IPsec WG minutes: > >>>Steve Bellovin, Security Area Director, strongly commented that any drafts >>>that contained specific vendor extensions would cause the IESG to be >>>concerned and may even cause it to be rejected. He states this in his >>>capacity of Area Director, not as a co-author of the JFK draft. > >Does anyone know what this is about? I'd imagine that IESG might be >annoyed at certain companies claiming they're using a standard, but >using private extensions that make things noninteroperable. > >But as Philip's "TLV for Proprietary Use" >draft so eloquently says, extensibility has turned out >to be really powerful. > >So is the IESG saying that TLV's should be illegal unless each "T" is >assigned by IANA? Or that there will be no more TLV extensible protocols, >or what? > >Anyway, if that snippet from the IPsec minutes is accurate, perhaps >there will be a problem with getting this spec through the IESG. > >Radia > > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list >Isis-wg@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 14:51:38 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28910 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07567; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07539 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28768 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'Jeff Learman'" , Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:49:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > Perhaps we should ask Steve. Anyone have his address? > > Jeff http://www.research.att.com/info/smb smb@research.att.com _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 15:37:36 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01152 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11801; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11768 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00840 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6NJXdZI025391; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn2-543.cisco.com [10.82.242.31]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABY91831; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020723152610.0195ba70@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:33:00 -0400 To: isis-wg@ietf.org, Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020723143730.0224ae60@dingdong.cisco.com> References: <200207231529.g6NFTKL09068@sydney.East.Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org I have Steve's address. If I don't hear any vetos by tomorrow afternoon, I'll send Steve a note asking him to explain what he meant. Radia, what was the context of the excerpt? Was it very general, or was it in reference to ISIS WG work? Thanks, Jeff At 02:37 PM 7/23/2002, Jeff Learman wrote: >Perhaps we should ask Steve. Anyone have his address? > >Jeff > >At 11:29 AM 7/23/2002, Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking wrote: >>I wasn't in Yokohama. But here's an extract from the IPsec WG minutes: >> >>>>Steve Bellovin, Security Area Director, strongly commented that any drafts >>>>that contained specific vendor extensions would cause the IESG to be >>>>concerned and may even cause it to be rejected. He states this in his >>>>capacity of Area Director, not as a co-author of the JFK draft. >> >>Does anyone know what this is about? I'd imagine that IESG might be >>annoyed at certain companies claiming they're using a standard, but >>using private extensions that make things noninteroperable. >> >>But as Philip's "TLV for Proprietary Use" >>draft so eloquently says, extensibility has turned out >>to be really powerful. >> >>So is the IESG saying that TLV's should be illegal unless each "T" is >>assigned by IANA? Or that there will be no more TLV extensible protocols, >>or what? >> >>Anyway, if that snippet from the IPsec minutes is accurate, perhaps >>there will be a problem with getting this spec through the IESG. >> >>Radia >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Isis-wg mailing list >>Isis-wg@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > >_______________________________________________ >Isis-wg mailing list >Isis-wg@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 16:00:09 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02128 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA13403; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA13376 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01906 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sydney.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.9.16]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08762; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:54:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sr1-ubur-03 (sr1-ubur-03 [129.148.9.82]) by sydney.East.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with SMTP id g6NJseL11510; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207231954.g6NJseL11510@sydney.East.Sun.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:54:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking Reply-To: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? To: isis-wg@ietf.org, Radia.Perlman@sun.com, jlearman@cisco.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: tioosCSqjIn/DNOpO+HdTw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org From: Jeff Learman Radia, what was the context of the excerpt? Was it very general, or was it in reference to ISIS WG work? The excerpt was from the minutes of the IPsec WG meeting in Yokohama that were just posted to the IPsec list. I believe it was reporting on what various people said at the mike, so it is just the note-taker's interpretation of a comment Steve made. There are many possible sources of noise in this channel (Steve could have misunderstood something some IESG member said, the notetaker could have misunderstood what Steve said, etc.). So no reason to panic. Obviously, we should go to Steve for clarification on what he said. And if the IESG really has decreed no extensions allowed, then I do think we ought to argue about it, because operationally such things seem very important. Radia _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 17:54:44 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05356 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20884; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20854 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from psg.com (smmsp@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05299 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17X7af-000EaT-00; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:53:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:51:42 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <3098653816.20020723145142@psg.com> To: Tony Przygienda CC: stefano previdi , Naiming Shen , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology In-Reply-To: <3D3D7D8E.3060108@net4u.ch> References: <200207230859.g6N8x6h18912@strange-brew.cisco.com> <3D3D7D8E.3060108@net4u.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 9:00:14 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Stefano, here's my opinion modulo Naiming's one > In a sense, what you say is correct, if you read the 'MUST' as an > implementation guideline. The intention > was to say 'provides equivalent functionality to multiple RIBs'. A > better wording, however not to > 'bloated', welcome. I would however strongly disagree to even suggest > that things can be stored in the > 'same' RIB in some special cases. Just too messy ... Exactly. In fact, I think it was a "SHOULD" or "MAY" at first, and I suggested it is changed to a "MUST" for this very reason. > As to overlaping address spaces, I agree that the draft is not enough > but anything more (e.g. > looking at stripped labels or other stuff to decide between RIBs) is out > of the scope of this document. I remember having the same concern when reviewing the first version of this draft a year ago. Since I'm not the only one, what we could probably do is describe (as opposed to specify) or enumerate mechanisms that could potentially be used to associate an incoming packet with a specific topology and RIB, i.e., a somewhat descriptive hint :) Alex >>Of course if you use a separate set of adjacencies/interfaces for each >>topology, then you're safe... but this means a complete overlay network and I >>believe it's not the scope of the MT-ISIS draft... >> > nope >>So, I would suggest to drop the "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" and add a >>more generic statement saying that if multiple RIBs are used (because of >>overlapping addresses), then the forwarding layer MUST have a mechanism >>allowing correct RIB selection for incoming packets. >> > again, better wording welcome and IMHO the mechanism can be hinted at > but it is outside the > scope. > -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 23 22:05:33 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10870 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA01893; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA01865 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from psg.com (smmsp@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10770 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17XBTp-000MQb-00; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:02:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:00:58 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <177113609952.20020723190058@psg.com> To: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking CC: isis-wg@ietf.org, jlearman@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? In-Reply-To: <200207231954.g6NJseL11510@sydney.East.Sun.COM> References: <200207231954.g6NJseL11510@sydney.East.Sun.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Radia, folks I don't think there's much to be worried about here. The IESG should have a detailed explanation of its position on this issue later (I'll forward it to the list). My recommendation regarding the draft would be to emphasize that understanding of this TLV is not required for interoperability and that implementations must not use the contents of this TLV to affect their routing table calculation. -- Alex _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 24 08:15:03 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA04486 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17073; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17018 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA02372; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207241208.IAA02372@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; CC: isis-wg@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:08:43 -0400 Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Mobility Extensions to RSVP in an RSVP-Mobile IPv6 Framework Author(s) : C. Shen et al. Filename : draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt Pages : 14 Date : 23-Jul-02 This memo first gives a brief review of a RSVP and Mobile IPv6 interoperation framework proposed in [1] and compared its features with the Performance Requirements set forth by Requirements of a QoS Solution for Mobile IP [2]. The subsequent part of the memo presents specification details including message formats, processing rules and algorithms that form the framework. The vast majority of these specifications has been verified by a prototype implementation. It is expected that this work could serve as a useful input in dealing with NSIS protocol and mobility issue. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020723145616.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-shen-nsis-rsvp-mobileipv6-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020723145616.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 24 08:16:40 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05106 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:16:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17475; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17438 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Mistralsoftware.com (ptil-243-146-ban.primus-india.net [203.196.146.243] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA03076 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aravindr [192.168.15.24] by mistralsoftware.com [192.168.10.12] with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v5.0.0.R) for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:01:05 +0530 Message-ID: <001501c232e3$d3207580$180fa8c0@aravindr> From: "ARAVIND R" To: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:59:19 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.15.24 X-Return-Path: aravindr@mistralsoftware.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] Doubt Regarding isisCircTable of ISIS MIB Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, In isisCircTable of ISIS MIB there is no variable that can tell the actual down layer status (UP/DOWN) of the interface. So do the values of isisCircAdminState and isisCircExistState depends on the actual status of the interface? I mean to say, if down layer indicate that interface is not usable Then do we need to forcefully change isisCktAdminState to OFF from ON and/or change isisCircExistState to notInService/ notReady from ACTIVE? Thanks Aravind _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 24 08:27:20 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07898 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA19483; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA19433 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07221 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6OCPsOX021759; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JLEARMAN-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn2-543.cisco.com [10.82.242.31]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id ABZ05036; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724023344.022b7478@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: jlearman@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:12:56 -0400 To: Alex Zinin From: Jeff Learman Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] new potential issue with Proprietary / Private TLV numbers? Cc: Radia Perlman - Boston Center for Networking , isis-wg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <177113609952.20020723190058@psg.com> References: <200207231954.g6NJseL11510@sydney.East.Sun.COM> <200207231954.g6NJseL11510@sydney.East.Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Well put. It could be the shortest useful RFC ever! At 10:00 PM 7/23/2002, Alex Zinin wrote: >Radia, folks > > I don't think there's much to be worried about here. > The IESG should have a detailed explanation of its position > on this issue later (I'll forward it to the list). > > My recommendation regarding the draft would be to emphasize > that understanding of this TLV is not required for interoperability > and that implementations must not use the contents of this TLV > to affect their routing table calculation. > >-- >Alex _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 24 09:31:59 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15822 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25048; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25004 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15534 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'ARAVIND R'" , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Doubt Regarding isisCircTable of ISIS MIB Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:29:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > In isisCircTable of ISIS MIB there is no variable that can > tell the actual down layer status (UP/DOWN) of the interface. > So do the values of isisCircAdminState and isisCircExistState > depends on the actual status of the interface? > > I mean to say, if down layer indicate that interface is not usable > Then do we need to forcefully change isisCktAdminState to OFF > from ON and/or > change isisCircExistState to notInService/ notReady from ACTIVE? > > Thanks > Aravind Aravind - You can use isisCircIfIndex to lookup the current status in MIB-II. I don't see the point of duplicating that functionality in the IS-IS MIB. If the circuit's AdminState is 'on', then the circuit will be operational if/when the interface is up. You shouldn't have to take any special MIB actions. You implementation may need to do something special when the interface comes up again, but that is outside the scope of the MIB. - jeff parker - axiowave networks _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 26 02:26:03 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA09796 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA01473; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA01443 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA09710 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 02:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-48-21.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.48.21]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6Q6R4928628 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:27:04 +0200 Message-ID: <3D40E8BF.4030209@net4u.ch> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:14:23 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] Meeting minutes ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks again to Tony Ward for wearing the acting chair hat this time. Thanks to Sue Hares for taking notes during the meeting. My comments inlined > 1) Agenda > > Accepted as indicated in the notes > > 1. agenda bashing > 2. Document status - Dave Ward > 3. Draft Lsp fragements - Amir hermelin (amir@cwnt.cmo ) > 4. isis route tags - Stefano Previdi > 5. Multi-topology - Naiming Sheng > 6. restart - Stefano for Mike Shand > 7. MIB - DWard for Jeff Parker > 8. ITU-T Study Group 15 Stephen Trowbridge > 9. draft iih sequence - Naiming > 10. Draft interoperable - DWard for Jeff Parker > 11. Draft pcsd - JP Vasseur > 12. WG future > > > > 2) Document status > > 1) jumbo Frames > status: going informational; 1 implementation exist > > 2) ISIS over IP > status:appears to be dead; no interest from service providers > > 3) lsp frags > status: LC closed, new version; add comments back, to > publication > next action: publish revision and forward to IESG > > 4) 3 way - > status:in IESG queue > > 5) MT - > status: 2nd LC closing, AD comments back > next action: publish revision and send to IESG Looks at this point in time (albeit the last call seems to have passed) as we need to decide whether the description how the management forwarding (all-spf-computation) is working is clear enough? If not, it needs to be described better or scrapped. As well, we have now the comment outstanding about the description how the decision is taken which RIB to look up in. > > > 6) TE - > status: Closed, new version expected, AD comments back > > 7) V6 > status: new version excepted, AD comments back > next action: new version of draft released by author > > 8) TLV code points > status: awaiting publication > > 9) hhmac > status: new version expected; AD comments; to publication > > 8) optional checksum > status: to publication at IESG > > 9) restart > status: two week discussion, informational, go to last call > action: additional discussion needs to go on the list > > 10) interoperaability > status: two weeks, go to last call We will be starting last call soon. > > > 11) Admin Tags > status: two weeks discussion, go to last call same here. > > > 12) GMPLS > status: any final comments on TLV/sub-TLV structure > working group last call (Dave - please confirm) the decision has been taken to keep the draft in the isis wg and last call will be initiated. > > > 13) MIB - 3 months of discussion on list, last call > draft: > status: proposal: 1) new version of the MIB > 2) 3 month last call requested: If implemented MIB, > send note to the working group chair > > > 14) PCSD - > next action: More discussion on list; Need to determine the > interaction with CCAMP. > > > All drafts from the ISIS working group are published as > information RFC. > These are inputs to the process for the ISO subcomittee. > > 3) Draft LSP fragements (lsp-01.txt) > > History: > > Hermelin - 02 - added ablity for mode 2 > Hermelin 03 - merged ode 2 with other authors, changed TLV format > wg -00 - document change > wg -01 - final editor > > Discussion: > a) zero value is not allowed > b) Ad indicate this draft is at due to call on > c) many system-ids are now associated with the router instead of 1 > - comments that it is an implementation detail that decribes > how multiple > > If anyone has implemented this draft, please send a note to the ADs > and the authors. It is important to know what modes were > implemented. > > In Mode 1, the virtual nodes are not reachable except through the > main node. > - mode set to overload; can't calculate routes to the router; > can calculate routes on the router; > In Mode 2, there is not a problem. > > action: 2 modes discussion of calculation needs to be discussed on > the mail list. > These comments should be combined with the changes for the AD > comments. > > > 4) isis admin tags > > draft-martin-neal-policy-isis-admin-tags-04.txt > [working group document added] > > Summary of Draft issues: > > - route coloring > requirement: propagion of host routes (router's loopback > addresses) > across levels. > route tags give better control > > - new sub TLV - extended Ip reachability TLV 135 > - sub tlv 2 - > type - 1 octet (2) > length - multiple of 8 > 1 or more instance of 8 octets > [same syntax of Extended communities] > > action: two week discussion, last call. > > 5) MT-ISIS > > draft: Naiming Shen > draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-04.txt > > > MT-ISIS issues: > --------------- > draft changes: > a) announce MT capabilities in LSP and IIH > b) form MT ajacencies in p2p and LAN > c) announce MT IS neighbors in LSP > - MT based SPF calculation and RIB > - flooding and optimization > - encoding: TLV 229, 222, 235, 237 > > d) MT reachable > > - 237, 2 byte MT membership plus the format of tLV type 236 > > Generic MT SPF (change) > - for NM purpose, need to access routers in different topologies > - MT capability TLV in LSP, G bit represents the router GSPF > - GSPF algorithm processes all the nodes with the G bit set, > loop at links (IS TLV) regardless of MT (back-link check still > coform to the MT type). > > Process all MT reachable IP v4 prefies TLV with the sub TLV of > MT Management color; then install it into the "management" RIB. > > > Flooding -no change; optmization on p2p links. If link adjacency has > MT set changes; needs to force an exchange of CSNPs. > > [if don't flood like normal flooding, LSP may get lost. > If the MT set changes, need to flood > > > Discussion: Why is there a separate Management MIB? > If you have two separate RIBs, you need to choose state. > > [no answer on this from naiming. This discussion is right now on the list to be resolved as I said above > > 6) ISIS restart draft > > Last changes: > - Specified TLV number as 211 > - ONly UP adjacencies do graceful restart > a) clarify that no adjacency > - rest of the ajacencies > a) replace adj from down to "-" > > - Require CSNPs for both levels > a) clarify that on pt-pt circuits cancelling of T1 > does not > - permit t1 to be canclled after 1st retry > - allow explicit resetting of holding time > - clarify multi-level operation > - clearing the olverload bit > [all t2 timers cancelled out and outside [BGP or other]] > > Discussion: Naiming Shen > > When you receive the RR bits, the document says do not > refresh > the hold down timer. The document should not say this > since it > is an implementation timer > > Overload bit is set on the main overload bit on the node. > > action: Discussion needs to continue on the mail list. Discussion is right now on the list > > > 7) ISIS MIB > > history: 5 revisions since last approaches > changes: > - clean compiles - SMiCng; add conformances > - "MIB"-ize > - MIB features needed > 3 way handshake, > TE info > Wide Metrics > l2 to L1 leaking > > - Work in Progress: > Split counters out of general system and circuit tables > LSP header and LSP content tables > wide metrics > textual reformating > > requested: If implemented MIB, send note to the working group chair > > proposal: 1) new version of the MIB > 2) 3 month last call > > > 8) ITU Study Group 15 communication to IETF ISIS working group > > see presentation could the author pls forward the presentation to the list for archiving in some format, preferrably ASCII. > > > 9) adding Sequence Ids to Hello packets > > Discussion prior to presentation: > Chair requested the number of people who read draft: 10 (estimate) > Chair determined we should go on to discuss the draft. > > IIH sequence number > > motivation: 1) large of adjacencies > 2) hold-down timer is low for fast convergence > 3) congestion over the link > 4) router process scheduling slips > 5) massive LSP flooding > > Who's fault is the fluctuation of the links. > > Addition: new TLV in Hello packet that has sequence number > > Benefit: > 1) p2mp - if only one receiving router has seq# skips, > probably an inbound congestion issues; > > if all the receiving routes for the same router have > seq # skips, probably the sender is not sending out > the hello packet at the same time > > 2) [need the rest of the information here] > > > purpose: > 1) mostly NM usage > 2) adjust the hold time timer to prevent premature adjacency flap > > > format of the TLV: Code: 241 > length: 4 octets > value: a 32 bit unsigned number, 0xfffffff[all ones] reserved > > Each level needs to keep sequence number space. > > discussion from list: sub-TLV - for this sequence number is > expendable > sub-tlv - to indicate time lasp since last IIH or % of > interval > this is symmetrical to the sequence # skip for auto > hold-down time adjust. If one knows the neighbor has > repeated scheduling slips, it an optionally do > something > to prevent an adjacency flap > > request: to be a working group > Decision: this draft is not ready to be working group draft > > Discussion: We do not need sequence IDs to add to hello packets. > > If you receive packets and not other, it may be important to > drop the packets. > > [Naiming shen] It is not a protocol, but an implementation > issue on how > to determine the link is down. > > If you have lots of interfaces on the box, you minimize the > hello packet > processing. > > [Naiming shen] That's one opinion. Another is send as fast as > possible. > This proposal is very simple and does not take much time. > > [Stephen] This is trouble shooting the link and the box. > > [namining shen] We do not have the tools today, and this gives > some additional > tools. It is not a high price. authentiation > > [Stephen] This is a high price for the additional tool. > > [Ed Kern] this is cranking the complexity knob to solve an > edge problem. > > [Naiming Shen] - This is a configuration problem. This is very > cheap tradeoff > for trouble-shooting. > > [Ed kern] authentication is required. This doesn't tell you > what the problem > is exactly it. I feel the complexity is increased? > > [Amir] As a sequence number, it is cheap. However, this is > may not be > the right direction. This focus on the link protocols > should not > come from the is-is working group. This focus should come > from > another working group. > > [naiming] A problem on the adjacency is urgent due to fast > convergence issues. > > [dave] - You are assuming a trust model with the adjacencies; you > have > > [kareeti/dave] It is less expensive to use telnet to debug. > > [xxx] replay attack is a concern. [dave ward] IP sec protects > against > this feature. Any additions should await the RP-Sec > information. > > [Dorian Kim] This has a good feature, but there are other > existing tool that can solve this problem in a network. As operators > we have enough crud in the routing code. This feature does not > really buy you enoug to add more complexity to the routing system. Dave indicated that he felt the rough consensus was to not take it on as workgroup item. Any contradicting opinions please to the mailing list. > > > > > 12) Recommendation for Interopability > > 10 people read the draft, so the presentation will contineu > draft-ietf-isis-interoperable-01.txt > > Summary for draft: > =================== > a) What is covered: > 1) Variables that are constant; > 2) Constants that are variables > 3) What's not used > > b) Chagnes for IP Networks > 1) A number of tings that IP routers do that are not covered in > > c) Tweaks to 10589 > > d) Description on problems with non-homogenous networks > e) description on how to increase the MTU size > f) Future work > 1) dealing with non-homongenous networks > 2) doppelganger LSPs > > status of the document: Should it be normative or not normative > > list to discuss this: isis-update@ietf.org > > Request: Comments on this draft have been quiet for the last 6 > months. > Discuss two weeks on list; and then go to last call > > 13) JP Path commutation > > If anyone has read the draft, - 5 have we will continue with > presentation. > > motivation: > 1) TE LSP path computation is CPU intensive > - optimal TE LSP placment > - GMPLS > > 2) Incomplete TE LSDB (inter-area TE, Inter-AS TE) > - Compare with scenarios 2,4, and 5 of the > draft-kompella-mpls-multiarea-03.txt > > 3) Uni like protocol - CE is not in the MPLS routing domain > > 4) backup tunnel path computation > [Centralized or distribute for bandwidth protection while > allowing bandwidht sharing in the context of FRR draft] > > draft: automatic discovery of PCS - Packet Computation server > > TLV - > sub-tlv - Server scope > Server addresses > server capability > AS Domain TLV > > mechanisms: new LSP on PCSD TLV content change, rules for > sub-TLV settings, PCSD TLV leaking rules on L1-L2 routers, > non-supporting capability, issues: no scalability > > proposal: Request for ISIS working group document > > Discussion: 1) Cannot proceed in CCAMP working group > 2) Passing along routing capabilities Dave's take is that the consensus of the working group was to not take it on as workgroup item. Any dissenting opinions please on the mailing list. I would expect the issue to come up in the context of a 'capability indication' draft. > > > > > 14) future topics of the is-is working > > a) continue to meet irregularly > > - continue to work on email list > > b) attempt to wrap up Charter work by IETF 56 > - many drafts in last call awating final editorial chagnes > - several drafts going out for Last call for IETF 54 > > c) Most drafts becoming Informational RFCs > > d) Finishing any bits V6 > > e) focus on finishing bits and pieces of internetworks > - exiting implementation considerations > - removing working items that are not relevant > > f) wrapping-up work on extensions with existing protocols > architectures > - charter revisit at IETF 56 > - ISIS v2 did not intend to convey to indicate a new work item > but, 2nd ed. > interaction with ISO > We are in the process of updating the charter to reflect realities a tad better Finally, where did the draft on the p2p over ether end up ? I thought that it was intended as a workgroup item and I see a requirements comming in from certain class of customers for such a thing. thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 26 08:20:11 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16313 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17114; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:09:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17082 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA15614; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200207261208.IAA15614@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:08:45 -0400 Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : IS-IS Automatic Encapsulation Author(s) : P. Christian Filename : draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt Pages : 22 Date : 25-Jul-02 RFC 1195 [1] documents a dual routing protocol that can be used to route both CLNP and IPv4, that is Integrated IS-IS. Integrated IS- IS can now also be used to route IPv6 [12]. RFC 1195 [1] places certain topological restrictions on networks that are routed using Integrated IS-IS, specifically that every Intermediate System in a level-1 area must be able to forward all network layer protocols that are present in that area, and that every level-2 Intermediate System must be able to forward all network layer protocols present in the routing domain. The mechanism described in this document enables an Intermediate System or a group of Intermediate Systems that do not support a particular network layer protocol to be used in a level-1 area or level-2 subdomain where that network layer protocol is present. Specifically the mechanism provides automatic encapsulation and unencapsulation so that a packet or PDU may pass through an Intermediate System that would not normally be able to forward that type of packet. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020725151004.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20020725151004.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 26 08:34:50 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16702 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA18679; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA18651 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h2s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16648 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6QCXXX05947 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:33:33 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:33:34 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB7BF@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: isis-wg@ietf.org Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:33:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C234A0.A55426C4" Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C234A0.A55426C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Question:- Page five of this draft lists a number of encapsulations that a router can advertise as being able to terminate. These include GRE, IPv4 in IP and IPv6 in IP. The ITU-T treats this differently, as it mandates that GRE must be supported (although that doesn't mean that others couldn't be too). Do folks think that it is a good idea to allow different encapsulation modes? or would it be better to just describe one (which I guess would have to be GRE)? I am just thinking that when talking interoperability, choice is a bad thing. Comments? Philip A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt ------_=_NextPart_001_01C234A0.A55426C4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt

Question:-

Page five of this draft lists a number of = encapsulations that a router can advertise as being able to = terminate.
These include GRE, IPv4 in IP and IPv6 in IP.

The ITU-T treats this differently, as it mandates = that GRE must be supported (although that doesn't mean that others = couldn't be too).

Do folks think that it is a good idea to allow = different encapsulation modes? or would it be better to just describe = one (which I guess would have to be GRE)?

I am just thinking that when talking = interoperability, choice is a bad thing.

Comments?

Philip

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-au= to-encap-01.txt

------_=_NextPart_001_01C234A0.A55426C4-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 26 10:29:24 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21793 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25603; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25550 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:28:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21640 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-48-21.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.48.21]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6QETQ903078; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:29:26 +0200 Message-ID: <3D4159A6.40406@net4u.ch> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:16:06 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philip Christian CC: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt References: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB7BF@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philip Christian wrote: > Question:- > > Page five of this draft lists a number of encapsulations that a router > can advertise as being able to terminate. > These include GRE, IPv4 in IP and IPv6 in IP. > > The ITU-T treats this differently, as it mandates that GRE must be > supported (although that doesn't mean that others couldn't be too). > > Do folks think that it is a good idea to allow different encapsulation > modes? or would it be better to just describe one (which I guess would > have to be GRE)? > > I am just thinking that when talking interoperability, choice is a bad > thing. > > Comments? > > Philip > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt > The question should be rather put as 'what do the operational folks want and will deploy' so I would encourage those to come forward with an answer. thanks -- tony PS: My guts say GRE today and maybe IPv6 in IPv4 in the future if they get IPv6 gear that doesn't support GRE ... _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 26 10:41:48 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22617 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27163; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27116 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (h2s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22509 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.73.112.187]) by znsgs01r.europe.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6QEevX03934; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:40:58 +0100 (BST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:40:57 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C454FB7C2@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Philip Christian" To: "'prz@net4u.ch'" Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:40:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C234B2.72968D8C" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C234B2.72968D8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, obviously anyone who is putting together an SDH DCN network will clearly want GRE. Note that the installed base of SDH multiplexers so far cost approximately $250 billion. I remember someone calculating that the DCN network would be at least 5% of the cost of an SDH network. (Just in case anyone wondered why companies still market OSI routers).... I cannot quite see why anyone else will care. They will just want vendor "a" to interwork with vendor "b". An obvious way to guarantee that vendor "a" interworks with vendor "b" interworks with SONET/SDH multiplexers is to document only GRE in the draft. Maybe that's what I should have done from the start and probabaly no-one would have complained. Ho hum. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 3:16 PM To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH] Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt Philip Christian wrote: > Question:- > > Page five of this draft lists a number of encapsulations that a router > can advertise as being able to terminate. > These include GRE, IPv4 in IP and IPv6 in IP. > > The ITU-T treats this differently, as it mandates that GRE must be > supported (although that doesn't mean that others couldn't be too). > > Do folks think that it is a good idea to allow different encapsulation > modes? or would it be better to just describe one (which I guess would > have to be GRE)? > > I am just thinking that when talking interoperability, choice is a bad > thing. > > Comments? > > Philip > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt > The question should be rather put as 'what do the operational folks want and will deploy' so I would encourage those to come forward with an answer. thanks -- tony PS: My guts say GRE today and maybe IPv6 in IPv4 in the future if they get IPv6 gear that doesn't support GRE ... ------_=_NextPart_001_01C234B2.72968D8C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Isis-wg] draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt

Well, obviously anyone who is putting together an SDH = DCN network will clearly want GRE.
Note that the installed base of SDH multiplexers so = far cost approximately $250 billion.
I remember someone calculating that the DCN network = would be at least 5% of the cost of an SDH network.
(Just in case anyone wondered why companies still = market OSI routers)....

I cannot quite see why anyone else will care.  = They will just want vendor "a" to interwork with vendor = "b".

An obvious way to guarantee that vendor "a" = interworks with vendor "b" interworks with SONET/SDH = multiplexers is to document only GRE in the draft.

Maybe that's what I should have done from the start = and probabaly no-one would have complained. Ho hum.

Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch]
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 3:16 PM
To: Christian, Philip [HAL02:GI50:EXCH]
Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] = draft-ietf-isis-auto-encap-01.txt


Philip Christian wrote:

> Question:-
>
> Page five of this draft lists a number of = encapsulations that a router
> can advertise as being able to = terminate.
> These include GRE, IPv4 in IP and IPv6 in = IP.
>
> The ITU-T treats this differently, as it = mandates that GRE must be
> supported (although that doesn't mean that = others couldn't be too).
>
> Do folks think that it is a good idea to allow = different encapsulation
> modes? or would it be better to just describe = one (which I guess would
> have to be GRE)?
>
> I am just thinking that when talking = interoperability, choice is a bad
> thing.
>
> Comments?
>
> Philip
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-au= to-encap-01.txt
>

The question should be rather put as 'what do the = operational folks want
and will deploy' so I would
encourage those to come forward with an = answer. 

    thanks

    -- tony


PS: My guts say GRE today and maybe IPv6 in IPv4 in = the future if they
get IPv6 gear that
doesn't support GRE ...


------_=_NextPart_001_01C234B2.72968D8C-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sat Jul 27 23:05:51 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11457 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04187; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA25531 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (weird-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.118]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18210 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from there (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp195.cisco.com [10.50.0.194]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id g6MHHYh22338; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:17:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200207221717.g6MHHYh22338@strange-brew.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: stefano previdi To: Naiming Shen Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:17:29 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by optimus.ietf.org id NAA25556 Subject: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Naiming, just a few comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology. > 9. MT SPF Computation > > Each MT MUST run its own instance of the decision process. > The LSP overload bit and pseudo-node LSPs are used by all topologies > during computation. Reverse connectivity check within SPF MUST > follow the according MT to assure the bi-directional reachability. > The results of each computation MUST be stored in a separate RIB, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > otherwise overlapping addresses in different topologies could > lead to undesirable routing behavior such as forwarding loops. I believe that use of overlapping addresses will require more than just separate RIBs. When the router will receive an IP packet, it will have to use some other mechanisms (than just IP destination address lookup) in order to determine which RIB it has to use to forward such packet (especially when you play with multiple topologies in the same address family). Therefore I found the following statement: "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" a bit extreme and not totally correct. It's not needed in all cases and, in the cases where it's needed (assuming overlapping addresses are used), it's not enough to ensure correct forwarding. Of course if you use a separate set of adjacencies/interfaces for each topology, then you're safe... but this means a complete overlay network and I believe it's not the scope of the MT-ISIS draft... So, I would suggest to drop the "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" and add a more generic statement saying that if multiple RIBs are used (because of overlapping addresses), then the forwarding layer MUST have a mechanism allowing correct RIB selection for incoming packets. > 9.1 Generic MT SPF (GSPF) for Network Management [...] > Implementations SHOULD allow the administrator to control the > setting of MT Management Color to specific prefixes of the router > and the setting of Generic MT SPF to install the MT Mangement > colored routes into specific RIB. It is recommended for the > administrator's to ensure consistent configuration of all routers > in the domain to prevent undesirable forwarding behavior. #### Same here. If you use unique addresses for your management MT, then you don't need a separate RIB. Otherwise you also need the forwarding layer to decide which RIB to use.... and in this particular case it's not trivial. #### s. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sat Jul 27 23:07:55 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11500 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04122; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28904 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [192.11.222.163]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA12582 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihmail.ih.lucent.com (h135-185-56-8.lucent.com [135.185.56.8]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.2.2/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g6H5dpw19431 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com ([192.11.175.94]) by ihmail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id AAA24337; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:39:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D35017D.B81CAF3E@lucent.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:32:45 -0600 From: Stephen Trowbridge Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD EMS-1.5 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1259F6D89551AA1EF3BCCA84" Subject: [Isis-wg] ITU-T Study Group 15 Slides from Today's meeting Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1259F6D89551AA1EF3BCCA84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Attached are the slides I presented today. In particular, please note the SG15 ftp site whose URL is given on slide 3 - from there you can download the current draft of G.7712/Y.1703. Slide 6 indicates some sections identified by Q.14/15 that may be of interest to this WG. 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XAA11617 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04731; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04709 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11586 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-49-117.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.49.117]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6S3DM901653 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:13:22 +0200 Message-ID: <3D435E02.8010407@net4u.ch> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:59:14 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] FYI: 2 MIB implementations ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the list, I received privately 2 confirmations that the ISIS MIB is being implemented in official products. Way to go, Jeff thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Sat Jul 27 23:13:51 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11697 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04940; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04890 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11660 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-49-117.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.49.117]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6S3FK901736 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:15:20 +0200 Message-ID: <3D435E78.50903@net4u.ch> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:01:12 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Isis-wg] last call on draft-ietf-isis-gmpls-extensions-13 ... Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit we are starting last call on draft-ietf-isis-gmpls-extensions-13 draft. The last call will end 8/15/02 thanks -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 29 14:56:14 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10949 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22674; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22636 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10736 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'VishwasM@netplane.com'" Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:53:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Isis-wg] Level in IPRA Table Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > Hi Jeff, > > I am working on the IPRA table. I had a slight doubt. While > injecting routes when configuring the IPRA table, I got > into a slight confusion. Which level should the information > be injected into - Level 1 and/or Level 2. > > Do we require a level field in the index too? > > Thanks, > Vishwas Vishwas - I think the original intent was to introduce such routes into L1 and let them leak up to L2. But I suspect that many products today can be configured to leak a route directly into L2. If someone is running at L2 only, this would be required. All - Is there any objection to adding a field to the IPRA entry that dictates which level it should be introduced into? Perhaps something like the following. I'd suggest L1 or L2, as L1L2 is redundant. If we add it to Level 1, then it will pass through the summary check and emerge at the right level of summarization into L2. - jeff parker IsisIPRAEntry ::= SEQUENCE { isisIPRAIndex Integer32, isisIPRAType INTEGER, isisIPRADestType InetAddressType, isisIPRADest InetAddress, isisIPRADestPrefixLen InetAddressPrefixLength, isisIPRAExistState RowStatus, isisIPRAAdminState AdminState, isisIPRAMetric DefaultMetric, isisIPRAMetricType MetricType, isisIPRAFullMetric FullMetric, isisIPRASNPAAddress OSINSAddress, isisIPRALevel INTEGER -- 1 or 2 } _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 30 10:10:37 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19223 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27983; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27958 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (odd-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.119]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19045 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from there (ams-clip-vpn-dhcp119.cisco.com [10.50.0.118]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id g6UE8f710701; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:08:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200207301408.g6UE8f710701@strange-brew.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: stefano previdi To: Alex Zinin , Tony Przygienda Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:08:28 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] Cc: Naiming Shen , isis-wg@ietf.org References: <200207230859.g6N8x6h18912@strange-brew.cisco.com> <3D3D7D8E.3060108@net4u.ch> <3098653816.20020723145142@psg.com> In-Reply-To: <3098653816.20020723145142@psg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by optimus.ietf.org id KAA27959 Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tuesday 23 July 2002 23:51, Alex Zinin wrote: > Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 9:00:14 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > Stefano, here's my opinion modulo Naiming's one > > > In a sense, what you say is correct, if you read the 'MUST' as an > > implementation guideline. The intention > > was to say 'provides equivalent functionality to multiple RIBs'. A > > better wording, however not to > > 'bloated', welcome. I would however strongly disagree to even suggest > > that things can be stored in the > > 'same' RIB in some special cases. Just too messy ... > > Exactly. In fact, I think it was a "SHOULD" or "MAY" at first, and > I suggested it is changed to a "MUST" for this very reason. I still believe that "MUST" is introducing constraints that are outside the scope of this draft. I believe this draft is intended to describe a way to build different SPTs, but not the way packet forwarding is done (as long as packets are forwarded according to the SPT associated to a given MT) s. > > As to overlaping address spaces, I agree that the draft is not enough > > but anything more (e.g. > > looking at stripped labels or other stuff to decide between RIBs) is out > > of the scope of this document. > > I remember having the same concern when reviewing the first version > of this draft a year ago. Since I'm not the only one, what we could > probably do is describe (as opposed to specify) or enumerate mechanisms > that could potentially be used to associate an incoming packet with > a specific topology and RIB, i.e., a somewhat descriptive hint :) > > Alex > > > > >>Of course if you use a separate set of adjacencies/interfaces for each > >>topology, then you're safe... but this means a complete overlay network and I > >>believe it's not the scope of the MT-ISIS draft... > >> > > nope > > >>So, I would suggest to drop the "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" and add a > >>more generic statement saying that if multiple RIBs are used (because of > >>overlapping addresses), then the forwarding layer MUST have a mechanism > >>allowing correct RIB selection for incoming packets. > >> > > again, better wording welcome and IMHO the mechanism can be hinted at > > but it is outside the > > scope. > > > > -- tony > > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 30 10:38:00 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21179 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00221; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00187 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bridge.axiowave.com (ppp-64-115-125-242.broadviewnet.net [64.115.125.242] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20988 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: Jeff Parker To: "'appallar'" Cc: "ISIS-WG (E-mail)" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Level in IPRA Table Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:36:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org > > Vishwas - > > I think the original intent was to introduce such > > routes into L1 and let them leak up to L2. But I suspect > > that many products today can be configured to leak a > > route directly into L2. > Suryaa>> If the system is L1 or L12 then, all the IPRA info will > go in L1 LSPs and leak up to L2, if the system is L2 only then, > IPRAs could go directly in L2 LSPs. so do we really require > Level for IPRAs ???? Suryaa I'm not sure that there is a crying need for the IPRA Table in the first place, but let's assume for now that we need it. Here is an application for the Level. System is L1L2, and we want to introduce a route into L2, but not into L1. - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 30 13:03:35 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA29083 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10626; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10581 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com (hiddenuser@prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28871 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046EF18D3E2; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:02:22 -0700 (PDT) To: stefano previdi Cc: Alex Zinin , Tony Przygienda , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology In-reply-to: Mail from stefano previdi dated Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:08:28 +0200 <200207301408.g6UE8f710701@strange-brew.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:02:21 -0700 From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20020730170222.046EF18D3E2@prattle.redback.com> Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Stefano, ] On Tuesday 23 July 2002 23:51, Alex Zinin wrote: ] > Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 9:00:14 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: ] > > Stefano, here's my opinion modulo Naiming's one ] >=20 ] > > In a sense, what you say is correct, if you read the 'MUST' as an=20 ] > > implementation guideline. The intention ] > > was to say 'provides equivalent functionality to multiple RIBs'. A=20 ] > > better wording, however not to ] > > 'bloated', welcome. I would however strongly disagree to even suggest= ] =20 ] > > that things can be stored in the ] > > 'same' RIB in some special cases. Just too messy ... ] >=20 ] > Exactly. In fact, I think it was a "SHOULD" or "MAY" at first, and ] > I suggested it is changed to a "MUST" for this very reason. ] ] I still believe that "MUST" is introducing constraints that are outside t= ] he=20 ] scope of this draft. I sort of agree with you that "SHOULD" is a better wording in this case. We advice people this should be the way to do things, but if someone has a creative mechanism also make it work, we probably don't care, its internal to the box. ] ] I believe this draft is intended to describe a way to build different SPT= ] s,=20 ] but not the way packet forwarding is done (as long as packets are forward= ] ed=20 ] according to the SPT associated to a given MT) ] ] s. ] =20 > > As to overlaping address spaces, I agree that the draft is not enough= ] =20 ] > > but anything more (e.g. ] > > looking at stripped labels or other stuff to decide between RIBs) is = ] out=20 ] > > of the scope of this document. ] >=20 ] > I remember having the same concern when reviewing the first version ] > of this draft a year ago. Since I'm not the only one, what we could ] > probably do is describe (as opposed to specify) or enumerate mechanisms ] > that could potentially be used to associate an incoming packet with ] > a specific topology and RIB, i.e., a somewhat descriptive hint :) I also feel that the wording "additional mechanism MAY be used to resolve the topology identity of the incoming IP packets on the interface." is a good enough hint. Since whatever more specific we hint, people don't have to follow; some implementation can come up a neat way to leave the hint obsolete. I personally don't see this "overlapping IP space on the same interface" is the way to use MT extensions. thanks. ] >=20 ] > Alex ] >=20 ] >=20 ] >=20 ] > >>Of course if you use a separate set of adjacencies/interfaces for eac= ] h=20 ] > >>topology, then you're safe... but this means a complete overlay netwo= ] rk=20 ] and I=20 ] > >>believe it's not the scope of the MT-ISIS draft... ] > >> ] > > nope ] >=20 ] > >>So, I would suggest to drop the "MUST be stored in a separate RIB" an= ] d=20 ] add a=20 ] > >>more generic statement saying that if multiple RIBs are used (because= ] of=20 > >>overlapping addresses), then the forwarding layer MUST have a mechani= ] sm=20 ] > >>allowing correct RIB selection for incoming packets. ] > >> ] > > again, better wording welcome and IMHO the mechanism can be hinted at= ] =20 ] > > but it is outside the ] > > scope. ] >=20 ] >=20 ] > > -- tony ] >=20 ] >=20 - Naiming _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 30 14:23:38 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03222 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA15926; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA15901 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02953 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-52-187.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.52.187]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6UIJ8908725; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:19:08 +0200 Message-ID: <3D46D4C0.1050603@net4u.ch> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:02:40 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Naiming Shen CC: stefano previdi , Alex Zinin , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology References: <20020730170222.046EF18D3E2@prattle.redback.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Naiming Shen wrote: >Stefano, > > ] On Tuesday 23 July 2002 23:51, Alex Zinin wrote: > ] > Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 9:00:14 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > ] > > Stefano, here's my opinion modulo Naiming's one > ] >=20 > ] > > In a sense, what you say is correct, if you read the 'MUST' as an=20 > ] > > implementation guideline. The intention > ] > > was to say 'provides equivalent functionality to multiple RIBs'. A=20 > ] > > better wording, however not to > ] > > 'bloated', welcome. I would however strongly disagree to even suggest= > ] =20 > ] > > that things can be stored in the > ] > > 'same' RIB in some special cases. Just too messy ... > ] >=20 > ] > Exactly. In fact, I think it was a "SHOULD" or "MAY" at first, and > ] > I suggested it is changed to a "MUST" for this very reason. > ] > ] I still believe that "MUST" is introducing constraints that are outside t= > ] he=20 > ] scope of this draft. > >I sort of agree with you that "SHOULD" is a better wording in this case. >We advice people this should be the way to do things, but if someone has >a creative mechanism also make it work, we probably don't care, its >internal to the box. > thinking twice about it, ok, you guys have a point but please, under no circumstances suggest that things could be in a single RIB but strongly direct in the direction of two cleanly disjoint RIBs. > > > ] > ] I believe this draft is intended to describe a way to build different SPT= > ] s,=20 > ] but not the way packet forwarding is done (as long as packets are forward= > ] ed=20 > ] according to the SPT associated to a given MT) > ] > ] s. > ] =20 > > > As to overlaping address spaces, I agree that the draft is not enough= > ] =20 > ] > > but anything more (e.g. > ] > > looking at stripped labels or other stuff to decide between RIBs) is = > ] out=20 > ] > > of the scope of this document. > ] >=20 > ] > I remember having the same concern when reviewing the first version > ] > of this draft a year ago. Since I'm not the only one, what we could > ] > probably do is describe (as opposed to specify) or enumerate mechanisms > ] > that could potentially be used to associate an incoming packet with > ] > a specific topology and RIB, i.e., a somewhat descriptive hint :) > >I also feel that the wording "additional mechanism MAY be used to resolve > the topology identity of the incoming IP packets on the interface." >is a good enough hint. Since whatever more specific we hint, people don't >have to follow; some implementation can come up a neat way to leave the >hint obsolete. I personally don't see this "overlapping IP space on the >same interface" is the way to use MT extensions. > >thanks. > yepp, let's just hint, enumerations and solutions are outside scope of this draft -- tony > > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 30 17:32:08 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09928 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27344; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27312 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from psg.com (smmsp@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09495 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ZeQg-0002t0-00; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:21:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:19:51 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1354453984.20020730141951@psg.com> To: Tony Przygienda CC: Naiming Shen , stefano previdi , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology In-Reply-To: <3D46D4C0.1050603@net4u.ch> References: <20020730170222.046EF18D3E2@prattle.redback.com> <3D46D4C0.1050603@net4u.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks- Before I leave the exact wording decisions in the capable hands of this WG, I'd like to give my perspective on the issue of the scope of this document. What we have here is not just yet another useful ISIS TLV. We're talking about different forwarding behavior and routing calculations supporting it. As such, we need to give enough clue to the reader about the forwarding process and RIB/FIB construction to make sure we do not end up receiving mid-night support calls and troubleshooting a permanent routing loop because someone misinterpreted the spec. The smart-guys-will- figure-out argument is just not good enough. I do not see a problem in giving some generic rules that need to be followed and giving some valid examples of the approaches that can be used to implement them (as opposed to limiting implementations to them only). I guess my point is that routing is too important, so I'd rather us err on the side of descriptiveness. It might be a good idea to consider adding a separate section that talks about forwarding implications... Thanks. -- Alex Tuesday, July 30, 2002, 11:02:40 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Naiming Shen wrote: >>Stefano, >> >> ] On Tuesday 23 July 2002 23:51, Alex Zinin wrote: >> ] > Tuesday, July 23, 2002, 9:00:14 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: >> ] > > Stefano, here's my opinion modulo Naiming's one >> ] >=20 >> ] > > In a sense, what you say is correct, if you read the 'MUST' as an=20 >> ] > > implementation guideline. The intention >> ] > > was to say 'provides equivalent functionality to multiple RIBs'. A=20 >> ] > > better wording, however not to >> ] > > 'bloated', welcome. I would however strongly disagree to even suggest= >> ] =20 >> ] > > that things can be stored in the >> ] > > 'same' RIB in some special cases. Just too messy ... >> ] >=20 >> ] > Exactly. In fact, I think it was a "SHOULD" or "MAY" at first, and >> ] > I suggested it is changed to a "MUST" for this very reason. >> ] >> ] I still believe that "MUST" is introducing constraints that are outside t= >> ] he=20 >> ] scope of this draft. >> >>I sort of agree with you that "SHOULD" is a better wording in this case. >>We advice people this should be the way to do things, but if someone has >>a creative mechanism also make it work, we probably don't care, its >>internal to the box. >> > thinking twice about it, ok, you guys have a point but please, under no > circumstances suggest that > things could be in a single RIB but strongly direct in the direction of > two cleanly disjoint RIBs. >> >> >> ] >> ] I believe this draft is intended to describe a way to build different SPT= >> ] s,=20 >> ] but not the way packet forwarding is done (as long as packets are forward= >> ] ed=20 >> ] according to the SPT associated to a given MT) >> ] >> ] s. >> ] =20 >> > > As to overlaping address spaces, I agree that the draft is not enough= >> ] =20 >> ] > > but anything more (e.g. >> ] > > looking at stripped labels or other stuff to decide between RIBs) is = >> ] out=20 >> ] > > of the scope of this document. >> ] >=20 >> ] > I remember having the same concern when reviewing the first version >> ] > of this draft a year ago. Since I'm not the only one, what we could >> ] > probably do is describe (as opposed to specify) or enumerate mechanisms >> ] > that could potentially be used to associate an incoming packet with >> ] > a specific topology and RIB, i.e., a somewhat descriptive hint :) >> >>I also feel that the wording "additional mechanism MAY be used to resolve >> the topology identity of the incoming IP packets on the interface." >>is a good enough hint. Since whatever more specific we hint, people don't >>have to follow; some implementation can come up a neat way to leave the >>hint obsolete. I personally don't see this "overlapping IP space on the >>same interface" is the way to use MT extensions. >> >>thanks. >> > yepp, let's just hint, enumerations and solutions are outside scope of > this draft > -- tony >> >> _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 31 00:45:07 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA20336 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA18756; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA18724 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WS0005.indiatimes.com ([203.199.93.15]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA20305 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 192.168.57.15 (a1 [192.168.57.21]) by WS0005.indiatimes.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11947; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:17:04 +0530 From: "appallar" Message-Id: <200207310347.JAA11947@WS0005.indiatimes.com> To: "Jeff Parker", "appallar" CC: "ISIS-WG E-mail" Reply-To: "appallar" Subject: Re: RE: [Isis-wg] Level in IPRA Table Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:24:36 +0530 X-URL: http://indiatimes.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_20027313924361760281936" MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org --=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_20027313924361760281936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Jeff, I don't see any problem if the Type of IPRA Entries are Manual as you said, but if the IPRAs are of type automatic and if they are learnt from an another routeing protocol, then how could we decide about level? Regards suryanarayana "Jeff Parker" wrote: > > Vishwas - > > I think the original intent was to introduce such > > routes into L1 and let them leak up to L2. But I suspect > > that many products today can be configured to leak a > > route directly into L2. > Suryaa>> If the system is L1 or L12 then, all the IPRA info will > go in L1 LSPs and leak up to L2, if the system is L2 only then, > IPRAs could go directly in L2 LSPs. so do we really require > Level for IPRAs ???? Suryaa I'm not sure that there is a crying need for the IPRA Table in the first place, but let's assume for now that we need it. Here is an application for the Level. System is L1L2, and we want to introduce a route into L2, but not into L1. - jeff parker _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at http://email.indiatimes.com Buy Music, Video, CD-ROM, Audio-Books and Music Accessories from http://www.planetm.co.in Change the way you talk. Indiatimes presents "Valufon", Your PC to Phone service with clear voice at rates far less than the normal ISD rates. Go to http://www.valufon.indiatimes.com. Choose your plan. BUY NOW. --=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_20027313924361760281936 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hello Jeff,

I don't see any problem if the Type of IPRA Entries are Manual as you said, but if the IPRAs are of type automatic

and if they are learnt from an another routeing protocol, then how could we decide about level?

 

Regards

suryanarayana

"Jeff Parker" wrote:



> > Vishwas -
> > I think the original intent was to introduce such
> > routes into L1 and let them leak up to L2. But I suspect
> > that many products today can be configured to leak a
> > route directly into L2.

> Suryaa>> If the system is L1 or L12 then, all the IPRA info will
> go in L1 LSPs and leak up to L2, if the system is L2 only then,
> IPRAs could go directly in L2 LSPs. so do we really require
> Level for IPRAs ????

Suryaa
I'm not sure that there is a crying need for the IPRA Table
in the first place, but let's assume for now that we need it.

Here is an application for the Level. System is L1L2,
and we want to introduce a route into L2, but not into L1.

- jeff parker

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BUY NOW. --=_MAILER_ATTACH_BOUNDARY1_20027313924361760281936-- _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 31 03:28:01 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA17160 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA18772; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA18746 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA17136 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 03:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-48-203.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.48.203]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6V7T3927844; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:29:04 +0200 Message-ID: <3D478DE2.8010105@net4u.ch> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:12:34 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zinin CC: Naiming Shen , stefano previdi , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology References: <20020730170222.046EF18D3E2@prattle.redback.com> <3D46D4C0.1050603@net4u.ch> <1354453984.20020730141951@psg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Zinin wrote: >Folks- > > Before I leave the exact wording decisions in the capable hands of > this WG, I'd like to give my perspective on the issue of the scope of > this document. > > What we have here is not just yet another useful ISIS TLV. We're > talking about different forwarding behavior and routing calculations > supporting it. As such, we need to give enough clue to the reader > about the forwarding process and RIB/FIB construction to make sure we > do not end up receiving mid-night support calls and troubleshooting a > permanent routing loop because someone misinterpreted the spec. The > smart-guys-will- figure-out argument is just not good enough. I do > not see a problem in giving some generic rules that need to be > followed and giving some valid examples of the approaches that can be > used to implement them (as opposed to limiting implementations to > them only). I guess my point is that routing is too important, so I'd > rather us err on the side of descriptiveness. It might be a good idea > to consider adding a separate section that talks about forwarding > implications... > let's maybe take a step back and think about what is the essence of a workgroup document like this given that the raison d'etre of a such a group is vendor-interoperability, nothing more and nothing less. If you're easily bored by ramblings, skip 1-3 and get to conclusion at the end 1. It has to specify very precisely what and when shows up on the wire between nodes in terms of the protocol's packets. Those are formats, often supplemented by descriptive rules but it's basically syntax. This should not be screwed up since otherwise the spec is useless. These things mostly map pretty straightforward into implementation. 2. It has to specify a model to be followed of what the nodes do internally to get the proper protocol packets in and out to their neighbors. It's normally described as EFSM, again often supplemented by descriptive rules. This is basically semantics and it often takes quite a few iterations to get it right or a very long time to get the first version right. A very tight and unambiguous semantics produces hundreds of pages (commonly known as ATM Forum, OSI and such specs and traditionally despised by IETF folks, but loved by people who have to make money reliably from networks) and often leads to a certain 'rigidity" of the protocol since people tend to take 'biblical' positions on paragraphs within the spec to defend problems or advantages of their implementations and deployment scenarios. Within the realm of IETF, speed is often preferred over non-ambiguous semantic description at a cost of iterations and sometimes, ehem, initial interoperability problems. Finally, we do not forget that the model described to exhibit such desired semantics is _just a model_. By whatever implementation means a meaningfull semantic behavior is achieved is none of the workgroup's business. 3. In Link-states we have the artifact of hop-by-hop forwarding that forces us to describe a model that produces a coherent 'forwarding-behavior' of the whole network, not just one node. This is normally done by providing people with variations of distributed Dijkstra's or Bellman's algorithms which are basically very statefull FSMs. It is a wonder that only deems on humans in modern times that such 'each-on-its-own' semantics generates a meaningfull behavior of a larger entity (something found also in other realms of modern science, people like Hayek being an early thinker of the whole concept if you have time and inclination for some deeper thoughts) . The specification of those computation is an aritifact in the sense that they are purely internal and not exchanged with neighbors so strictly they do not need standardization under normal circumstances (and e.g. purely source-routed protocols don't need them, something that still seems a mystery to many folks in the context of LSPs and CSPF). However, whether those computatons map into RIBs, forwarding decisions or on-demand computations or even contacting a local psychic is none of the workgroup's business. We just want the specific behavior achieved. If you follow me so far, we should _not_ specify anything about what structures the computations generate in MT, we just describe that to achieve a coherent forwarding behavior, those algorithms and their results must be followed by some means at the implementor's discretion. So IMHO, we left the scope of our work with the 'hint at how many RIBs' and that's how we got into hot water. Saying that you run separate decisions and forwarding must not generate loops would have been enough. After all the rambling, here's my take as what to do: We had off-the-list some discussions with a private application that made a perfect argument for a single RIB, it achieves the semantics intended by a mean that suits its needs so any _MUST_ in terms of multiple RIBs is redundant and wrong in its context. Alex is right since hinting at people with a suggestion that they could do a 'single' RIB will land them in hot water more likely than not. What we should do IMO, is to say 'overlapping addresses in different topologies MUST not lead to undesirable routing behavior such as forwarding loops. Such a behavior MAY be prevented by storing the results of distinct computations in separate RIBs. Network configuration and any equivalent of forwarding logic MUST ensure the same MT is used by all nodes from the source to the destination when dealing with a packet.' let's get that converged -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 31 07:34:22 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21270 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA00958; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA00928 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xover.netplane.com (cnxt10002.conexant.com [198.62.10.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21151 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by XOVER.dedham.mindspeed.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:28:17 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Manral, Vishwas" To: "'prz@net4u.ch'" , Alex Zinin Cc: Naiming Shen , stefano previdi , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:30:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Hi Tony, My doubt does not relate to the MT draft, however I have had this doubt for some time now and thought this may a right time to clarify(in context of the discussion). Don't you think items that can be done internally, without affecting interoperability but can be useful for the ISIS community as a whole be also pursued by the ISIS-WG? For example, we know that flooding reduction in meshed topologies is an important problem to solve in link state protocols, why can the WG actually work on an approach that may have interoperability concerns and not follow something that does not, although they solve the same problem. Similar doubts about other approaches like say refresh-optimization which can be done totally internally without interoperability concerns. It seems to me "document current protocol implementation practices and improvements" is a chartered goal of the working group. Thanks, Vishwas -----Original Message----- From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:prz@net4u.ch] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 12:43 PM To: Alex Zinin Cc: Naiming Shen; stefano previdi; isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology Alex Zinin wrote: >Folks- > > Before I leave the exact wording decisions in the capable hands of > this WG, I'd like to give my perspective on the issue of the scope of > this document. > > What we have here is not just yet another useful ISIS TLV. We're > talking about different forwarding behavior and routing calculations > supporting it. As such, we need to give enough clue to the reader > about the forwarding process and RIB/FIB construction to make sure we > do not end up receiving mid-night support calls and troubleshooting a > permanent routing loop because someone misinterpreted the spec. The > smart-guys-will- figure-out argument is just not good enough. I do > not see a problem in giving some generic rules that need to be > followed and giving some valid examples of the approaches that can be > used to implement them (as opposed to limiting implementations to > them only). I guess my point is that routing is too important, so I'd > rather us err on the side of descriptiveness. It might be a good idea > to consider adding a separate section that talks about forwarding > implications... > let's maybe take a step back and think about what is the essence of a workgroup document like this given that the raison d'etre of a such a group is vendor-interoperability, nothing more and nothing less. If you're easily bored by ramblings, skip 1-3 and get to conclusion at the end 1. It has to specify very precisely what and when shows up on the wire between nodes in terms of the protocol's packets. Those are formats, often supplemented by descriptive rules but it's basically syntax. This should not be screwed up since otherwise the spec is useless. These things mostly map pretty straightforward into implementation. 2. It has to specify a model to be followed of what the nodes do internally to get the proper protocol packets in and out to their neighbors. It's normally described as EFSM, again often supplemented by descriptive rules. This is basically semantics and it often takes quite a few iterations to get it right or a very long time to get the first version right. A very tight and unambiguous semantics produces hundreds of pages (commonly known as ATM Forum, OSI and such specs and traditionally despised by IETF folks, but loved by people who have to make money reliably from networks) and often leads to a certain 'rigidity" of the protocol since people tend to take 'biblical' positions on paragraphs within the spec to defend problems or advantages of their implementations and deployment scenarios. Within the realm of IETF, speed is often preferred over non-ambiguous semantic description at a cost of iterations and sometimes, ehem, initial interoperability problems. Finally, we do not forget that the model described to exhibit such desired semantics is _just a model_. By whatever implementation means a meaningfull semantic behavior is achieved is none of the workgroup's business. 3. In Link-states we have the artifact of hop-by-hop forwarding that forces us to describe a model that produces a coherent 'forwarding-behavior' of the whole network, not just one node. This is normally done by providing people with variations of distributed Dijkstra's or Bellman's algorithms which are basically very statefull FSMs. It is a wonder that only deems on humans in modern times that such 'each-on-its-own' semantics generates a meaningfull behavior of a larger entity (something found also in other realms of modern science, people like Hayek being an early thinker of the whole concept if you have time and inclination for some deeper thoughts) . The specification of those computation is an aritifact in the sense that they are purely internal and not exchanged with neighbors so strictly they do not need standardization under normal circumstances (and e.g. purely source-routed protocols don't need them, something that still seems a mystery to many folks in the context of LSPs and CSPF). However, whether those computatons map into RIBs, forwarding decisions or on-demand computations or even contacting a local psychic is none of the workgroup's business. We just want the specific behavior achieved. If you follow me so far, we should _not_ specify anything about what structures the computations generate in MT, we just describe that to achieve a coherent forwarding behavior, those algorithms and their results must be followed by some means at the implementor's discretion. So IMHO, we left the scope of our work with the 'hint at how many RIBs' and that's how we got into hot water. Saying that you run separate decisions and forwarding must not generate loops would have been enough. After all the rambling, here's my take as what to do: We had off-the-list some discussions with a private application that made a perfect argument for a single RIB, it achieves the semantics intended by a mean that suits its needs so any _MUST_ in terms of multiple RIBs is redundant and wrong in its context. Alex is right since hinting at people with a suggestion that they could do a 'single' RIB will land them in hot water more likely than not. What we should do IMO, is to say 'overlapping addresses in different topologies MUST not lead to undesirable routing behavior such as forwarding loops. Such a behavior MAY be prevented by storing the results of distinct computations in separate RIBs. Network configuration and any equivalent of forwarding logic MUST ensure the same MT is used by all nodes from the source to the destination when dealing with a packet.' let's get that converged -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 31 07:38:28 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21847 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA02020; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA01980 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (odd-brew.cisco.com [144.254.15.119]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21752 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from there (dhcp-bru-peg1-vl18-144-254-2-54.cisco.com [144.254.2.54]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id g6VBbl704483; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:37:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200207311137.g6VBbl704483@strange-brew.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: stefano previdi To: prz@net4u.ch, Alex Zinin Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:30:01 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] Cc: Naiming Shen , isis-wg@ietf.org References: <20020730170222.046EF18D3E2@prattle.redback.com> <1354453984.20020730141951@psg.com> <3D478DE2.8010105@net4u.ch> In-Reply-To: <3D478DE2.8010105@net4u.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by optimus.ietf.org id HAA01981 Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wednesday 31 July 2002 09:12, Tony Przygienda wrote: > Alex Zinin wrote: > > >Folks- > > > > Before I leave the exact wording decisions in the capable hands of > > this WG, I'd like to give my perspective on the issue of the scope of > > this document. > > > > What we have here is not just yet another useful ISIS TLV. We're > > talking about different forwarding behavior and routing calculations > > supporting it. As such, we need to give enough clue to the reader > > about the forwarding process and RIB/FIB construction to make sure we > > do not end up receiving mid-night support calls and troubleshooting a > > permanent routing loop because someone misinterpreted the spec. The > > smart-guys-will- figure-out argument is just not good enough. I do > > not see a problem in giving some generic rules that need to be > > followed and giving some valid examples of the approaches that can be > > used to implement them (as opposed to limiting implementations to > > them only). I guess my point is that routing is too important, so I'd > > rather us err on the side of descriptiveness. It might be a good idea > > to consider adding a separate section that talks about forwarding > > implications... > > > > let's maybe take a step back and think about what is the essence of a > workgroup > document like this given that the raison d'etre of a such a group is > vendor-interoperability, > nothing more and nothing less. If you're easily bored by ramblings, skip > 1-3 and get to > conclusion at the end > > 1. It has to specify very precisely what and when shows up on the wire > between nodes > in terms of the protocol's packets. > Those are formats, often supplemented by descriptive rules but it's > basically syntax. > This should not be screwed up since otherwise the spec is useless. > These things mostly map pretty straightforward into implementation. > 2. It has to specify a model to be followed of what the nodes do > internally to get the > proper protocol packets in and out to their neighbors. It's normally > described as EFSM, again often > supplemented by descriptive rules. This is basically semantics and it > often takes quite > a few iterations to get it right or a very long time to get the first > version right. > A very tight and unambiguous semantics produces hundreds of pages > (commonly known as ATM Forum, OSI and such specs and traditionally > despised by IETF folks, > but loved by people who have to make money reliably from networks) > and often > leads to a certain 'rigidity" of the protocol since people tend to > take 'biblical' positions > on paragraphs within the spec to defend problems or advantages of > their implementations > and deployment scenarios. Within the > realm of IETF, speed is often preferred over non-ambiguous semantic > description at a cost > of iterations and sometimes, ehem, initial interoperability problems. > Finally, we do not forget that the model described to exhibit such > desired semantics is > _just a model_. By whatever > implementation means a meaningfull semantic behavior is achieved is > none of > the workgroup's business. > 3. In Link-states we have the artifact of hop-by-hop forwarding that > forces us to describe > a model that produces a coherent 'forwarding-behavior' of the whole > network, not just > one node. This is normally done by > providing people with variations of distributed Dijkstra's or > Bellman's algorithms which are > basically very statefull FSMs. It is a wonder that only deems on > humans in modern > times that such 'each-on-its-own' > semantics generates a meaningfull behavior of a larger entity > (something found also > in other realms of modern science, people like Hayek being an early > thinker of the > whole concept if you have time and inclination for some deeper > thoughts) . > The specification of those computation is an aritifact in the sense > that they > are purely internal and not exchanged with neighbors so strictly they > do not need > standardization under normal circumstances (and e.g. purely > source-routed protocols > don't need them, something that still seems a mystery to many folks > in the context > of LSPs and CSPF). However, whether those computatons map into RIBs, > forwarding decisions or > on-demand computations or even contacting a local psychic is none of the > workgroup's business. We just want the specific behavior achieved. > > If you follow me so far, we should _not_ specify anything about what > structures > the computations generate in MT, we just describe that to achieve a > coherent > forwarding behavior, those algorithms and their results must be followed > by some means > at the implementor's discretion. So IMHO, we left the scope of our work > with the > 'hint at how many RIBs' and that's how we got into hot water. Saying > that you run > separate decisions and forwarding must not generate loops would have > been enough. > > After all the rambling, here's my take as what to do: We had > off-the-list some > discussions with a private application that made a perfect argument for > a single RIB, it achieves the > semantics intended by a mean that suits its needs so any _MUST_ in terms of > multiple RIBs is redundant and wrong in its context. Alex is right since > hinting at people with a suggestion that they could do a 'single' RIB > will land them in hot water more > likely than not. What we should do IMO, is to say 'overlapping addresses > in different topologies MUST not > lead to undesirable routing behavior such as forwarding loops. Such a > behavior MAY be > prevented by storing the results of distinct computations in separate > RIBs. Network configuration and any equivalent of > forwarding logic MUST ensure the same MT is used by all nodes from the > source to the destination > when dealing with a packet.' > > let's get that converged I agree. s. > > > -- tony > > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 31 13:52:54 2002 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10046 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA24743; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA24717 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.net4u.ch (root@net4u.net4u.ch [194.191.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09335 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from net4u.ch (adsl-63-200-48-203.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.200.48.203]) by net4u.net4u.ch (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g6VHeY909232; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:40:34 +0200 Message-ID: <3D481CFF.10402@net4u.ch> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:23:11 -0700 From: Tony Przygienda Reply-To: prz@net4u.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020408 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Manral, Vishwas" CC: Alex Zinin , Naiming Shen , stefano previdi , isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Comments on draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Manral, Vishwas wrote: >Hi Tony, > >My doubt does not relate to the MT draft, however I have had this doubt for >some time now and thought this may a right time to clarify(in context of the >discussion). > >Don't you think items that can be done internally, without affecting >interoperability but can be useful for the ISIS community as a whole be also >pursued by the ISIS-WG? > nope, some attempt at this kind of stuff have proven failures in the past ... Just imagine what will happen if you unknowningly suggest a 'MUST' for an implementation technique that some major competitor of yours cannot incorporate into his deployed, successfull implementation. Ultimately, do you think he'll even care to follow such a 'MUST' ? And how would exactly prove that he does not follow this 'MUST' ? There is a small grey area but it is normally better to not get into 'internal operations or implementation techniques' unless there is no other choice. > >It seems to me "document current protocol implementation practices and >improvements" is a chartered goal of the working group. > that always means 'as far as they can affect inteoperability' -- tony _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg