From juliannhackett@mamma.com Fri Jun 09 15:47:02 2006
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From: "adolph ingram" <juliannhackett@mamma.com>
To: "stinky sheridan" <isis-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: Over paying, just refinnace, half-retinal
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:40:45 -0400
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Just in case you forgot:

 June 12, Monday - Working Group Chair approval for initial document
(Version -00) submissions appreciated by 09:00 ET (13:00 UTC/GMT)

 June 19, Monday - Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00)
submission by 09:00 ET (13:00 UTC/GMT)

 June 26, Monday - Internet Draft final submission cut-off by 09:00 ET
(13:00 UTC/GMT)


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From mariejeannerivera@chocofan.com Mon Jun 12 14:58:53 2006
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From: "anitra bush" <mariejeannerivera@chocofan.com>
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Subject: Amazing stuff, fertilizer spreader
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From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 14 12:12:34 2006
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This is a call for agenda items for the ISIS WG meeting in Montreal. Our WG
meeting is on Tuesday July 11:

1850-1950 Afternoon Session IV, Room 519B


Please send requests directly to me.

-Dward


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Simplified Extension of LSP Space for IS-IS 
	Author(s)	: L. Ginsberg, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-isis-wg-extlsp-00.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2006-6-14
	
This draft describes a simplified method for extending the LSP space 
beyond the 256 Link State PDU (LSP) limit defined in ISO 10589. This 
method is intended as a preferred replacement for the method defined 
in RFC 3786. 


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From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 14 21:36:17 2006
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Subject: [Isis-wg] IS-IS HMAC SHA Cryptographic Authentication - Updated
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Hi,
 
We have updated the draft to propose an extension to IS-IS to allow the use of any cryptographic authentication algorithm without requiring any changes in the protocol and/or packet format.
 
Although this document has been written specifically for using HMAC construct along with the SHA family of cryptographic hash functions, the method described in this document is generic and can be used to extend IS-IS to support any cryptographic hash function in the future. 
 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-02.txt
 
Thanks,
Manav

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les, et al,

draft looks good. nice job !

/hannes

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title		: Simplified Extension of LSP Space for IS-IS 
> 	Author(s)	: L. Ginsberg, et al.
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-isis-wg-extlsp-00.txt
> 	Pages		: 13
> 	Date		: 2006-6-14
> 	
> This draft describes a simplified method for extending the LSP space 
> beyond the 256 Link State PDU (LSP) limit defined in ISO 10589. This 
> method is intended as a preferred replacement for the method defined 
> in RFC 3786. 
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-wg-extlsp-00.txt
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Subject: [Isis-wg] Experimental TLV to go Experimental?
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At the previous IETF the suggestion was made of moving the  
experimental TLV draft to experimental (as we have no implementations  
in development). We agreed to take this to the list. I've included  
the minutes on this issue below.

If no-one has objection we will submit this to IESG as an  
experimental RFC.

Chris & Dave.

Minutes:

Chris Hopps:  There was a request to ask the group if anyone had an  
issue with reviving the draft and taking it to Experimental?

Bill Fenner: There's been this weird tension between wanting to do
neat new things with new TLVs and wanted to be sure that what's
deployed is documented.  One conceivable thing to do is to restrict
what's done by restricting the allocations, but that won't work b/c
people will implement without allocating - so that won't work either.
That's my main concern with this.  We may get pushback from Ops b/c it
gives the ability to put anything out there with no documentation.

Chris Hopps: Shouldn't that be driven by the operators who are going
to use it?

Dave Ward: No known implementations - talked about it for the last few
years.  Asked for hands for interest in resurrecting the space (no
hands).  Asked for hands for no interest (again no hands).

Dino: If a vendor wanted a proprietary TLV, would you recommend them
using this or something else?

Chris Hopps: This - it uses an enterprise code plus whatever the
vendor.  (Gives details on solution in draft - one TLV & then
enterprise can put whatever it wants in it.) We'll take this to the
list.


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From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jun 15 17:44:55 2006
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Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Experimental TLV to go Experimental?
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I'm still available to submit / edit it if needs be.
This TLV is probably of more obvious benefit to vendors; however if
vendors do not have an easy way to do this then there is always the risk
that they just implement and be damned.
It is then the operators who will have to pick up the pieces and who
will find themselves stuck with one vendor because interoperability
problems will mean that once vendor A is there then vendor B cannot work
properly in that network.
This draft basically makes vendor A and B leave each other alone so that
they can co-exist without things messing up.
Probably there was more demand for this three or four years ago when I
originally submitted it.  Everyone was full of brilliant ideas and had
big development groups ready to make the magic happen quickly......
Anyway for anyone that hasn't got a copy the last draft is archived here:-
http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/standards/ietf/draft-ietf-isis-experimental-tlv-05.txt

Regards, Philip Christian

Christian Hopps wrote:

> At the previous IETF the suggestion was made of moving the 
> experimental TLV draft to experimental (as we have no implementations 
> in development). We agreed to take this to the list. I've included 
> the minutes on this issue below.
>
> If no-one has objection we will submit this to IESG as an 
> experimental RFC.
>
> Chris & Dave.
>
> Minutes:
>
> Chris Hopps:  There was a request to ask the group if anyone had an 
> issue with reviving the draft and taking it to Experimental?
>
> Bill Fenner: There's been this weird tension between wanting to do
> neat new things with new TLVs and wanted to be sure that what's
> deployed is documented.  One conceivable thing to do is to restrict
> what's done by restricting the allocations, but that won't work b/c
> people will implement without allocating - so that won't work either.
> That's my main concern with this.  We may get pushback from Ops b/c it
> gives the ability to put anything out there with no documentation.
>
> Chris Hopps: Shouldn't that be driven by the operators who are going
> to use it?
>
> Dave Ward: No known implementations - talked about it for the last few
> years.  Asked for hands for interest in resurrecting the space (no
> hands).  Asked for hands for no interest (again no hands).
>
> Dino: If a vendor wanted a proprietary TLV, would you recommend them
> using this or something else?
>
> Chris Hopps: This - it uses an enterprise code plus whatever the
> vendor.  (Gives details on solution in draft - one TLV & then
> enterprise can put whatever it wants in it.) We'll take this to the
> list.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Isis-wg mailing list
> Isis-wg@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg



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Folks -

An update to the IS-IS Multi-instance Multi-topology draft is now
available. Here's the URL and the Abstract.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-previdi-isis-mi-mt-01.txt


Abstract=20
   =20

   This draft describes a mechanism that allows a single router to  =20
   share one or more links among multiple IS-IS routing protocol=20
   instances.=20

   Multiple instances allow the deployment of multiple address-families=20
   as well as multiple instances of the same address-family and it is=20
   an alternative to Multi-Topology IS-IS. Routers will form instance=20
   specific adjacencies, exchange instance specific routing updates and=20
   compute paths utilizing instance specific LSDB information. Each PDU=20
   will contain a new TLV identifying the instance to which the PDU=20
   belongs. This allows a network operator to deploy multiple IS-IS=20
   topologies in parallel, using the same set of links when required=20
   and still have the capability of computing topology specific paths.=20
   This draft does not address the forwarding paradigm that needs to be=20
   used in order to ensure data PDUs are forwarded according to the=20
   topology to which they belong.

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Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> Folks -
> 
> An update to the IS-IS Multi-instance Multi-topology draft is now
> available. Here's the URL and the Abstract.
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-previdi-isis-mi-mt-01.txt
> 
> 
> Abstract 

stefano & les,

some comments and a question from my side:

comment ad 3.1 Instance Identifier TLV

   it would be in the good tradition of the isis-wg to
   make a suggestion of a codepoint for the TLV.

general comment &
comment ad 3.4.1 MI-ISIS Layer 2 multicast address and
comment ad 3.4.2 Interoperability using p2p networks

   this draft is a non-downwards compatible change, from the moment you
   add support for multi-instance all nodes in your network need to support it.

   we should not use subnet dependend fields (like MAC adresses)
   to control the versioning. since this is a essentially a redefinition of
   all known TLVs [which are from now on now keyed by the instance-id]
   have you thought about using a different PDU version in the IS-IS common header ?

   suggestion:
      pdu-version 1 would be used for topology 0 [fully downwards compatible] and
      pdu-version 2 would be used for the per-instance-keyed topologies.

   all PDU type and TLV allocations stay as-is.

   that way you rule out any subnet specific dependencies and any node that
   does not understand pdu-version 2 will ignore it anyway, which is IMO
   a cleaner transition tool.


finally a question: how would i link nodes between different topologies if
   i wanted to do so ?


/hannes

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Hannes -

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Gredler [mailto:hannes@juniper.net]
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 2:06 PM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)
> Cc: isis mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Update to Multi-instance Multi-Topology Draft
> available
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> > Folks -
> >
> > An update to the IS-IS Multi-instance Multi-topology draft is now
> > available. Here's the URL and the Abstract.
> >
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-previdi-isis-mi-mt-01.txt
> >
> >
> > Abstract
>=20
> stefano & les,
>=20
> some comments and a question from my side:
>=20
> comment ad 3.1 Instance Identifier TLV
>=20
>    it would be in the good tradition of the isis-wg to
>    make a suggestion of a codepoint for the TLV.
>=20

Yes - I agree. I am sure we will get around to it before too long.

> general comment &
> comment ad 3.4.1 MI-ISIS Layer 2 multicast address and
> comment ad 3.4.2 Interoperability using p2p networks
>=20
>    this draft is a non-downwards compatible change, from the moment
you
>    add support for multi-instance all nodes in your network need to
> support it.
>

We gave a lot of thought to backwards compatibility - and discussed
those issues in the draft. If you are not convinced we considered all
issues, please point out a specific problem (or problems) that you
believe we overlooked.

=20
>    we should not use subnet dependend fields (like MAC adresses)
>    to control the versioning.

That isn't what we are doing. We use a different MAC address to insure
that legacy implementations won't see the PDUs they cannot correctly
process. The protocol behavior hasn't changed at all - but we do need a
way to allow multiple instances to run on a LAN and be invisible to
legacy implementations.

> since this is a essentially a redefinition
> of
>    all known TLVs [which are from now on now keyed by the instance-id]
>    have you thought about using a different PDU version in the IS-IS
> common header ?
>=20
>    suggestion:
>       pdu-version 1 would be used for topology 0 [fully downwards
> compatible] and
>       pdu-version 2 would be used for the per-instance-keyed
topologies.
>=20
>    all PDU type and TLV allocations stay as-is.
>=20
>    that way you rule out any subnet specific dependencies and any node
> that
>    does not understand pdu-version 2 will ignore it anyway, which is
IMO
>    a cleaner transition tool.
>

One of the wonderful things about IS-IS is that it has survived for a
long time now and has been extended in many ways without need for a new
protocol version. Such robustness is to be respected and not discarded
lightly. Spinning a new version is a major step and one which the
community has thus far consciously avoided - with good reason I think.

I see nothing in the proposal which suggests this is a desirable
approach, let alone necessary. But, I'll keep listening...

>=20
> finally a question: how would i link nodes between different
topologies if
>    i wanted to do so ?

This sounds like a trick question. :-)
Have them share a topology!!

   Les

>=20
>=20
> /hannes

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Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:

> We gave a lot of thought to backwards compatibility - and discussed
> those issues in the draft. If you are not convinced we considered all
> issues, please point out a specific problem (or problems) that you
> believe we overlooked.

i don't think the restrictions on p2p interfaces will practically
work. - there is all sort of real-world strangeness (reconfig, APS)
that could break this. it is easy to makeup a series of events
where e.g. a LSP from a non-zero instance could end-up in instance 0.

>>   we should not use subnet dependend fields (like MAC adresses)
>>   to control the versioning.
> 
> 
> That isn't what we are doing. We use a different MAC address to insure
> that legacy implementations won't see the PDUs they cannot correctly
> process. The protocol behavior hasn't changed at all - but we do need a
> way to allow multiple instances to run on a LAN and be invisible to
> legacy implementations.

there is an underlying assumption that implementations actually parse
the dest-MAC adress for sanitizing the PDU. if memory serves me correct
then iso10589 does not contain a sanity check rule that requires
to check the destination-MAC adress against the configured Level.

in addition i know of at least two widely deployed implementations that
do not do, or did not do this ;-)

>>since this is a essentially a redefinition of
>>   all known TLVs [which are from now on now keyed by the instance-id]
>>   have you thought about using a different PDU version in the IS-IS
>>   common header ?
>>
>>   suggestion:
>>      pdu-version 1 would be used for topology 0 [fully downwards
>>                    compatible] and
>>      pdu-version 2 would be used for the per-instance-keyed
>>                    topologies.
>> 
>>   all PDU type and TLV allocations stay as-is.
>>
>>   that way you rule out any subnet specific dependencies and any node
>>   that does not understand pdu-version 2 will ignore it anyway, which is
>>   IMO a cleaner transition tool.

> One of the wonderful things about IS-IS is that it has survived for a
> long time now and has been extended in many ways without need for a new
> protocol version. Such robustness is to be respected and not discarded
> lightly. Spinning a new version is a major step and one which the
> community has thus far consciously avoided - with good reason I think.
> I see nothing in the proposal which suggests this is a desirable
> approach, let alone necessary. But, I'll keep listening...

TLVs are fine for doing incremental changes - but what you are suggesting
here is to change the semantics of every TLV ever defined (which is to
be keyed by the instance-id) - if you want to do that in a clean way
then you need IMO redefine all TLVs (undesirable) or bump the pdu version
field. -


>>finally a question: how would i link nodes between different
>> topologies if i wanted to do so ?

> This sounds like a trick question. :-)

oh it isn't - i just wanted to check if there is a way to keep seperate
topologies and still have them connected on a choke point.

---

another question which i don't really understand:

what problem does MI solve that cannot be solved using MT ?
(apart from the 12-Bit vs. 16-Bit Topology/Instance space
difference).


/hannes

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manav,

draft looks good - it would be nice if you could add suggestions
for CRYPTO_AUTH codepoints to foster pre-standard
implementation and testing.

we should adopt this as an wg-document.

/hannes

Manav Bhatia wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> We have updated the draft to include HMAC-SHA-384 and HMAC-SHA-512 authentication modes. There were some other minor comments as well that we had received. Those have been addressed in this version.
>  
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-01.txt
>  
> Would appreciate a feedback from the WG.
>  
> Cheers,
> Manav

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From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jun 23 22:15:31 2006
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From: Manav Bhatia <manav_bhatia06@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] IS-IS HMAC SHA Cryptographic Authentication
To: Hannes Gredler <hannes@juniper.net>
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Hannes,
 
You are probably looking at an earlier copy. We have updated the draft wherein we have suggested a value of 2 to be used for CRYPTO_AUTH mechanisms.
 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-02.txt
 
Cheers,
Manav

----- Original Message ----
From: Hannes Gredler <hannes@juniper.net>
To: Manav Bhatia <manav_bhatia06@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org
Sent: Saturday, 24 June, 2006 5:49:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] IS-IS HMAC SHA Cryptographic Authentication


manav,

draft looks good - it would be nice if you could add suggestions
for CRYPTO_AUTH codepoints to foster pre-standard
implementation and testing.

we should adopt this as an wg-document.

/hannes

Manav Bhatia wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> We have updated the draft to include HMAC-SHA-384 and HMAC-SHA-512 authentication modes. There were some other minor comments as well that we had received. Those have been addressed in this version.
>  
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-01.txt
>  
> Would appreciate a feedback from the WG.
>  
> Cheers,
> Manav

_______________________________________________
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From: "Abhishek Verma" <abhishekv.verma@gmail.com>
To: "Hannes Gredler" <hannes@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] IS-IS HMAC SHA Cryptographic Authentication
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If this is a call for show of hands, then this draft has my support too.

I think its a reasonable item to be taken up by the WG.

Toms

On 6/24/06, Hannes Gredler <hannes@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> manav,
>
> draft looks good - it would be nice if you could add suggestions
> for CRYPTO_AUTH codepoints to foster pre-standard
> implementation and testing.
>
> we should adopt this as an wg-document.
>
> /hannes
>
> Manav Bhatia wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > We have updated the draft to include HMAC-SHA-384 and HMAC-SHA-512
> authentication modes. There were some other minor comments as well that we
> had received. Those have been addressed in this version.
> >
> >
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-01.txt
> >
> > Would appreciate a feedback from the WG.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Manav
>
> _______________________________________________
> Isis-wg mailing list
> Isis-wg@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
>



-- 
--
Computer Science Deptt.
Institute of Technology, BHU
Varanasi - India

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<div>If this is a call for show of hands, then this draft has my support too.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I think its a reasonable item to be taken up by the WG.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Toms</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/24/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Hannes Gredler</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:hannes@juniper.net">hannes@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">manav,<br><br>draft looks good - it would be nice if you could add suggestions<br>for CRYPTO_AUTH codepoints to foster pre-standard
<br>implementation and testing.<br><br>we should adopt this as an wg-document.<br><br>/hannes<br><br>Manav Bhatia wrote:<br>&gt; Hi,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; We have updated the draft to include HMAC-SHA-384 and HMAC-SHA-512 authentication modes. There were some other minor comments as well that we had received. Those have been addressed in this version.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; <a href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bhatia-manral-isis-hmac-sha-01.txt</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; Would appreciate a feedback from the WG.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Cheers,<br>&gt; Manav<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Isis-wg mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Isis-wg@ietf.org">Isis-wg@ietf.org</a><br><a href="https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg">
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>--<br>Computer Science Deptt.<br>Institute of Technology, BHU<br>Varanasi - India<br>

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Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Update to Multi-instance Multi-Topology Draft available
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Hannes -

You raise some good points which we have been discussing.
Before providing a more complete response, I wanted to get clarification
on one particular point.

You said:

> there is an underlying assumption that implementations actually parse
> the dest-MAC adress for sanitizing the PDU. if memory serves me
correct
> then iso10589 does not contain a sanity check rule that requires
> to check the destination-MAC adress against the configured Level.
>=20
> in addition i know of at least two widely deployed implementations
that
> do not do, or did not do this ;-)
>=20

The L3 interface to the subnetwork layer for a LAN typically calls for
the L3 layer to register multicast addresses of interest. In the case of
IS-IS, it would register some subset of (AllL1IS, AllL2IS, AllIS)
depending on what levels it supports and whether it also supports ES-IS.
Multicast address filtering would then be done by the subnetwork layer
through some combination of hardware filtering and software filtering.

This filtering is necessary for two reasons:

1)Without it, L3 would be deluged with irrelevant multicast PDUs
2)As the subnetwork layer typically supports multiple L3 clients, it
must demultiplex the multicast PDUs of interest and direct them to the
interested clients

If one were to examine the IS-IS code in a given implementation which is
processing incoming PDUs on a LAN, I would not be surprised at all to
discover that there is no MAC destination address checking in that code.
But that omission is not of significance to the proposed MI extensions
so long as the filtering I describe above is being performed at a lower
layer.

If however, there is no multicast address filtering (or imperfect
filtering) being performed at the subnetwork layer, then this is of
significance to the proposed extensions. However, the absence of such
filtering would require such an implementation to spend a lot of time at
L3 discarding irrelevant PDUs - and therefore seems highly unlikely.

In the context of my remarks, could you please clarify exactly what you
believe is and is not being done as regards multicast address filtering
in the implementations with which you are familiar?

I also invite others to comment on the same issue so that we may better
understand the nature of the problems (if any) that the proposed MI
extensions might cause on LANs.

Thanx.

   Les

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les,

Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
[ ... ]
> If however, there is no multicast address filtering (or imperfect
> filtering) being performed at the subnetwork layer, then this is of
> significance to the proposed extensions. However, the absence of such
> filtering would require such an implementation to spend a lot of time at
> L3 discarding irrelevant PDUs - and therefore seems highly unlikely.
[ ... ]
 > In the context of my remarks, could you please clarify exactly what you
 > believe is and is not being done as regards multicast address filtering
 > in the implementations with which you are familiar?

the way L2-mcast-filtering is implemented today in the kernels that i have seen,
(netbsd to give an example - see http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/sys/netiso)
is that the kernel driver has got a wellknown,hardcoded list of
L2 mcast MAC adresses (AllL1IS, AllL2IS, AllIS, AllES) -
as soon you enable AF_ISO on one of its interfaces then you end up getting
the full show. right know there isn't a way for a userland module to
dynamically add or remove an arbitrary MAC address at runtime.

the anticipation of the kernel folks is that PDU can get proper demuxed based
on higher-level information (here the NLPID). with this model no harm
(at best some inefficiency) is caused at higher layers.


when we talk about protocol extensions i really dislike to redo all kernel
APIs for bcast interfaces if the same can get done at a cheaper cost, which
would be to bump the IS-IS PDU version field.


can you give some specific reason(s) why extending the PDU version
is not a viable choice ?

   to me that seems to be the most prolific solution as there are

   -no assumptions about the L2 filtering model of the underlying kernel
   -it is uniform on ptp and bcast circuits.
   -at no point i need to worry about downwards compatibility
     (v1 = old nodes that don't support per instance TLV keying)
     (v2 = new nodes that do support per instance TLV keying)
   -little changes at the IS-IS pdu-specific input parsers


let me also re-iterate my last question [which seemed to slip through the cracks]
what is it that can be done with MI that cannot be done with MT ?

/hannes

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