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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C867A8.0450450B-- From pled@cyclepup.com Tue Feb 5 11:01:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: isis-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@mail.ietf.org Received: by mail.ietf.org (Postfix, from userid 51) id 7955F3A6780; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 10:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsldevice.lan (unknown [86.60.94.22]) by mail.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121013A97D7 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 02:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [86.60.94.22] by smtp.secureserver.net; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:49:52 +0300 From: "Ricky Diamond" To: Subject: ProdigiousShlongSheila Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:49:52 +0300 Message-ID: <01c867fd$fb444000$165e3c56@pled> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal RobbieCockQueen-sized http://www.tiffuest.com From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 8 03:15:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2EE28C222; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:15:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CAeNHhLO0Oo6; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3016D28C224; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:15:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@ietf.org Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 534A928C1B4; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:15:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080208111501.534A928C1B4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:15:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : Domain-wide Prefix Distribution with Two-Level IS-IS Author(s) : T. Li, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2008-02-07 This document describes extensions to the Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) protocol to support optimal routing within a two-level domain. The IS-IS protocol is specified in ISO 10589, with extensions for supporting IPv4 (Internet Protocol) specified in RFC 1195. This document extends the semantics presented in RFC 1195 so that a routing domain running with both level 1 and level 2 Intermediate Systems (IS) [routers] can distribute IP prefixes between level 1 and level 2 and vice versa. This distribution requires certain restrictions to insure that persistent forwarding loops do not form. The goal of this domain-wide prefix distribution is to increase the granularity of the routing information within the domain. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-08030726.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-08030726.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg --NextPart-- From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 8 17:22:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972AD28C826; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:22:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.170, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_93=0.6, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agL8pYA+Rtcr; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6D228C810; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:22:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C08A28C7AD; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:22:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AW14j3aMCzX; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bosco.isi.edu (bosco.isi.edu [128.9.168.207]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F0D28C7B5; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by bosco.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 70) id 690F710E2B4; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:23:41 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Message-Id: <20080209012341.690F710E2B4@bosco.isi.edu> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:23:41 -0800 (PST) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [Isis-wg] RFC 5120 on M-ISIS: Multi Topology (MT) Routing in Intermediate System to Intermediate Systems (IS-ISs) X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5120 Title: M-ISIS: Multi Topology (MT) Routing in Intermediate System to Intermediate Systems (IS-ISs) Author: T. Przygienda, N. Shen, N. Sheth Status: Standards Track Date: February 2008 Mailbox: prz@net4u.ch, naiming@cisco.com, nsheth@juniper.net Pages: 14 Characters: 30318 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-isis-wg-multi-topology-12.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5120.txt This document describes an optional mechanism within Intermediate System to Intermediate Systems (IS-ISs) used today by many ISPs for IGP routing within their clouds. This document describes how to run, within a single IS-IS domain, a set of independent IP topologies that we call Multi-Topologies (MTs). This MT extension can be used for a variety of purposes, such as an in-band management network "on top" of the original IGP topology, maintaining separate IGP routing domains for isolated multicast or IPv6 islands within the backbone, or forcing a subset of an address space to follow a different topology. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 12:45:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4A63A68F4; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:45:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id koea4oQZZ2Is; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C874D3A68F5; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:45:07 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@ietf.org Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 6FA853A68E3; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:45:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080210204501.6FA853A68E3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:45:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : Domain-wide Prefix Distribution with Two-Level IS-IS Author(s) : T. Li, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2008-02-09 This document describes extensions to the Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) protocol to support optimal routing within a two-level domain. The IS-IS protocol is specified in ISO 10589, with extensions for supporting IPv4 (Internet Protocol) specified in RFC 1195. This document extends the semantics presented in RFC 1195 so that a routing domain running with both level 1 and level 2 Intermediate Systems (IS) [routers] can distribute IP prefixes between level 1 and level 2 and vice versa. This distribution requires certain restrictions to insure that persistent forwarding loops do not form. The goal of this domain-wide prefix distribution is to increase the granularity of the routing information within the domain. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-10124136.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-rfc2966bis-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-10124136.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg --NextPart-- From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 12 11:57:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64E628CCC6; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.902, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_93=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PFj3zzEJdZ0l; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2AB728CB0E; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0129E28C48A; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PNnO6VkhO8cN; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bosco.isi.edu (bosco.isi.edu [128.9.168.207]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B76728C472; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by bosco.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 70) id 02F7C10F0C9; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Message-Id: <20080212195916.02F7C10F0C9@bosco.isi.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [Isis-wg] RFC 5130 on A Policy Control Mechanism in IS-IS Using Administrative Tags X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5130 Title: A Policy Control Mechanism in IS-IS Using Administrative Tags Author: S. Previdi, M. Shand, Ed., C. Martin Status: Standards Track Date: February 2008 Mailbox: sprevidi@cisco.com, mshand@cisco.com, chris@ipath.net Pages: 8 Characters: 16284 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-isis-admin-tags-04.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5130.txt This document describes an extension to the IS-IS protocol to add operational capabilities that allow for ease of management and control over IP prefix distribution within an IS-IS domain. This document enhances the IS-IS protocol by extending the information that an Intermediate System (IS) router can place in Link State Protocol (LSP) Data Units for policy use. This extension will provide operators with a mechanism to control IP prefix distribution throughout multi-level IS-IS domains. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From FritzpenisRosales@openbsd.org Wed Feb 13 21:34:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C00628C1D6; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:34:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -68.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-68.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_SCHOOLING=5.657, FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.116, HELO_LH_HOME=3.714, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, INVALID_MSGID=1.9, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JmZSvHk+S0V3; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from home042f29993e.home (host86-133-14-85.range86-133.btcentralplus.com [86.133.14.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C6B9628C920; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:34:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: a43201c86ecb$6a5486c0$0201a8c0@home042f29993e From: "Brant Hays" To: Cc: , , , Subject: Nominated to receive a degree Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:34:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Prosperous future, money earning power, and the respect of all... 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Call us... 1-206-984-3962 From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 10:38:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A7828D141; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:38:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.139, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JKgxrGUIle0Z; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D840928D123; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@ietf.org Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 86A8E28CEF0; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:37:59 -0800 (PST) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Message-Id: <20080214183759.86A8E28CEF0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:37:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: isis chair , Internet Architecture Board , isis mailing list , RFC Editor Subject: [Isis-wg] Protocol Action: 'Routing IPv6 with IS-IS' to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Routing IPv6 with IS-IS ' as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Ross Callon and David Ward. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-ipv6-07.txt Technical Summary This draft specifies a method for exchanging IPv6 routing information using the IS-IS routing protocol. The described method utilizes 2 new TLVs, a reachability TLV and an interface address TLV to distribute the necessary IPv6 information throughout a routing domain. Using this method one can route IPv6 along with IPv4 and OSI using a single intra-domain routing protocol. Working Group Summary The document is a product of substantial discussion and review within the WG, which had strong consensus for putting this document on STD track. Protocol Quality The specification has been reviewed for IESG by Alex Zinin and Bill Fenner. There are multiple interoperable implementations of this document. The implementation report for this specification is available at http://www.ietf.org/IESG/Implementations/isis-ipv6-imp.txt _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 16 06:26:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FD128C1DA; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:26:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.866 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.866 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.993, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HAS_XAIMC=2.696, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_93=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MlLjHI-ZhVQr; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AE53A6A5A; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262453A6A38; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yM5LDoBLRu1r; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from people.com.cn (unknown [202.99.23.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C4C43A6A4F; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from people.com.cn([127.0.0.1]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id jm9b47b7437c; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:39:46 +0800 Received: from mail.ietf.org([64.170.98.32]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id jm1347b204d6; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:38:57 +0800 Received: from mail.ietf.org([64.170.98.32]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id AISP action; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:38:57 +0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5832F28C521; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:01:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VlT2RlTg702B; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD1028C48A; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ietf-announce@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-announce@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0129E28C48A; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PNnO6VkhO8cN; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bosco.isi.edu (bosco.isi.edu [128.9.168.207]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B76728C472; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by bosco.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 70) id 02F7C10F0C9; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Message-Id: <20080212195916.02F7C10F0C9@bosco.isi.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: ietf-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 X-AIMC-AUTH: (null) X-AIMC-MAILFROM: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org X-AIMC-AUTH: (null) X-AIMC-MAILFROM: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org X-Auto-Forward: jaglee@people.com.cn jag@kw.com.cn Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [Isis-wg] RFC 5130 on A Policy Control Mechanism in IS-IS Using Administrative Tags X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5130 Title: A Policy Control Mechanism in IS-IS Using Administrative Tags Author: S. Previdi, M. Shand, Ed., C. Martin Status: Standards Track Date: February 2008 Mailbox: sprevidi@cisco.com, mshand@cisco.com, chris@ipath.net Pages: 8 Characters: 16284 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-isis-admin-tags-04.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5130.txt This document describes an extension to the IS-IS protocol to add operational capabilities that allow for ease of management and control over IP prefix distribution within an IS-IS domain. This document enhances the IS-IS protocol by extending the information that an Intermediate System (IS) router can place in Link State Protocol (LSP) Data Units for policy use. This extension will provide operators with a mechanism to control IP prefix distribution throughout multi-level IS-IS domains. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute ... _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 09:15:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5EC28C4B3; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:15:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mEeMLBPWOrQT; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B5E28C3FC; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:15:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@ietf.org Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 19DF228C3D3; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:15:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080218171502.19DF228C3D3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:15:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. Title : IS-IS Multi-Instance Author(s) : S. Previdi, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2008-02-18 This draft describes a mechanism that allows a single router to share one or more links among multiple IS-IS routing protocol instances. Multiple instances allow the isolation of resources associated with each instance. Routers will form instance specific adjacencies, exchange instance specific routing updates and compute paths utilizing instance specific LSDB information. Each PDU will contain a new TLV identifying the instance to which the PDU belongs. This allows a network operator to deploy multiple IS-IS instances in parallel, using the same set of links when required and still have the capability of computing instance specific paths. This draft does not address the forwarding paradigm that needs to be used in order to ensure data PDUs are forwarded according to the paths computed by a specific instance. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-18090853.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-18090853.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg --NextPart-- From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 09:41:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A5928C4A4; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LggoinlFzeOl; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AC128C48C; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD04C28C43F for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id elY13vt7iuif for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway.ipinfusion.com (mail.ipinfusion.com [65.223.109.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07EC28C48D for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([10.10.3.125]) by gateway.ipinfusion.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m1IHeX920058 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:40:33 -0800 Message-ID: <47B9C32E.2070001@ipinfusion.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:41:02 -0800 From: Vishwas Manral User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Windows/20071210) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: isis-wg@ietf.org References: <20080218171502.19DF228C3D3@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20080218171502.19DF228C3D3@core3.amsl.com> Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I looked at the idea of the draft. Though we say it will work fine with older IS-IS implementations which do not support this functionality. I guess we need all instances on a network to support it before we can turn on the functionality on a network. Unlike in OSPF, where a use of the functionality without all routers supporting it will result in adjacencies not being formed at all. Thanks, Vishwas Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of the IETF. > > > Title : IS-IS Multi-Instance > Author(s) : S. Previdi, et al. > Filename : draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt > Pages : 9 > Date : 2008-02-18 > > This draft describes a mechanism that allows a single router to share > one or more links among multiple IS-IS routing protocol instances. > > Multiple instances allow the isolation of resources associated with > each instance. Routers will form instance specific adjacencies, > exchange instance specific routing updates and compute paths > utilizing instance specific LSDB information. Each PDU will contain > a new TLV identifying the instance to which the PDU belongs. This > allows a network operator to deploy multiple IS-IS instances in > parallel, using the same set of links when required and still have > the capability of computing instance specific paths. This draft does > not address the forwarding paradigm that needs to be used in order to > ensure data PDUs are forwarded according to the paths computed by a > specific instance. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 10:15:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E0828C47D; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.944 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.944 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.507, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEu7Hc-YWyot; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7825C28C3FA; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:15:10 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7716128C330 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:15:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LAa8ijxj38nD for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9896828C3FA for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Feb 2008 10:14:51 -0800 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1IIEpTV009039; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:14:51 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1IIEnuN002018; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:14:51 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-222.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.106]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:14:48 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:16:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47B9C32E.2070001@ipinfusion.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt Thread-Index: AchyVYkik0KAJOJeSjyJnwsO9eQVuAABCtdg References: <20080218171502.19DF228C3D3@core3.amsl.com> <47B9C32E.2070001@ipinfusion.com> From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "Vishwas Manral" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 18:14:48.0762 (UTC) FILETIME=[25D861A0:01C8725A] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=ginsberg@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Vishwas - > -----Original Message----- > From: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Vishwas Manral > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:41 AM > Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] I-D Action:draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt > > Hi, > > I looked at the idea of the draft. Though we say it will work fine with > older IS-IS implementations which do not support this functionality. I > guess we need all instances on a network to support it before we can > turn on the functionality on a network. > I am having trouble understanding the concern behind your comment. Let's suppose we get to a point where all routers support the MI extension. They still have to be configured to support a particular instance (say #10) on a set of interfaces. If all the configuration for instance #10 is not present, the topology will be less than what is desired. How does this differ from the case where some routers don't support MI at all? This isn't a tool to provide automatic configuration. So partial deployment of MI may be just fine if the set of links desired for a particular topology is restricted. It is up to the customer as to when it is useful to turn on. Les > Unlike in OSPF, where a use of the functionality without all routers > supporting it will result in adjacencies not being formed at all. > > Thanks, > Vishwas > > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the IS-IS for IP Internets Working Group of > the IETF. > > > > > > Title : IS-IS Multi-Instance > > Author(s) : S. Previdi, et al. > > Filename : draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt > > Pages : 9 > > Date : 2008-02-18 > > > > This draft describes a mechanism that allows a single router to share > > one or more links among multiple IS-IS routing protocol instances. > > > > Multiple instances allow the isolation of resources associated with > > each instance. Routers will form instance specific adjacencies, > > exchange instance specific routing updates and compute paths > > utilizing instance specific LSDB information. Each PDU will contain > > a new TLV identifying the instance to which the PDU belongs. This > > allows a network operator to deploy multiple IS-IS instances in > > parallel, using the same set of links when required and still have > > the capability of computing instance specific paths. This draft does > > not address the forwarding paradigm that needs to be used in order to > > ensure data PDUs are forwarded according to the paths computed by a > > specific instance. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > > the message. > > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > > to change your subscription settings. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt". > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > > Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > > In the body type: > > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt". > > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > > Internet-Draft. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From roland@fujitsu.com Thu Feb 21 06:22:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC843A6A09 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:22:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.975 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.975 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=1, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jVFpgANglhnK for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-015-77-227.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br (189-015-77-227.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br [189.15.77.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539E43A68ED for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:22:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801c87495$05acd368$1eeac9b2@lrrnpysu> From: "Impressive Watches" To: "Cartier Replica" Subject: Unbeatable Prices Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:35:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C87495.05ABEA62" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C87495.05ABEA62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEW WATCH SHOP! 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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C87495.05ABEA62-- From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 05:21:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3DC928C456; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:21:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wWM-wCAevb2B; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD52428C305; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:21:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FBC28C305 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:21:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dv+UGrnsdQrb for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E13228C205 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2008 14:21:17 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1QDLHYu000515 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:21:17 +0100 Received: from [64.103.65.102] (dhcp-gpk02-vlan300-64-103-65-102.cisco.com [64.103.65.102]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1QDLDXL020997 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:21:17 GMT Message-ID: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:21:13 +0000 From: mike shand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: isis-wg@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2094; t=1204032077; x=1204896077; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mshand@cisco.com; z=From:=20mike=20shand=20 |Subject:=20draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt |Sender:=20; bh=H5N6AK/Ih19Q008+qwhyTD+V+Gm5dmyKq2Lqf5OFNug=; b=a9w9cWY7LlSDFa7SVblvuHW7AGUNhqOUTPcmJBa3Qw8nN1pSE/YEY/PmiX VRdYJhfWCbDspdLU/A6sALnBN7kWDAiIF1fYbCD5UdIJgn6kEMRj9D6mH1SH Ywpjze66bc; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=mshand@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org I am still not convinced that the mechanism proposed in this draft is a good idea. 1. As I have said before, we already have the capability to describe a 2 node pt-pt "LAN" as pt-pt links, which not only removes the pseudonode, but uses the pt-pt update process, no DR election etc. This is a manual configuration, but I believe that is a benefit since it warns when a third router is accidentally connected to what is supposed to be a pt-pt LAN. 2. The proposed mechanism with hysteresis means that the representation of the network is non-deterministic. i.e. the way the network looks depends on its previous history. 3. Current network management tools which display the topology will be unable to distinguish between a 3 node LAN and 3 nodes linked by pt to pt links. This is exacerbated by the non-determinism. 4. The representation of a 3 node LAN as 3 separate pt-pt links may lead bandwidth sensitive routing (e.g. the cSPF of MPLS TE) to make wrong decisions. This is because the single interface onto the LAN will appear in the link state database as two independent links. 5. The mechanism actually results in an increase in the number of LSPs which need to be flooded as nodes are attached and removed from the LAN. Consider the normal case. Going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 3 and 3 to 2 nodes requires 2, 2, 2 & 2 new LSPs respectively. i.e. in each case the new LSP of the attached/detached node, and a new version of the pseudonode LSP. In the proposed case, using hysteresis, the same sequence requires 3, 5, 2 and 3 (plus a purge of the pseudonode). i.e. 8 changed LSPs for the normal case, and 14 for the proposed case. All considered, this seems like additional complexity, both in terms of implementation and in terms of manageability and impact on existing mechanisms, for very little gain. We need to very carefully assess with the wider community the full ramifications of making this change to a widely deployed protocol because there may be many other subtle dependencies of which we are not yet aware. Mike _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 07:07:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E0728C488; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67Aamfqvxbva; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E843A6C44; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:07:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479F93A6B48 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:07:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UWTdLUUGDISn for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp102.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp102.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com [68.142.229.216]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6185D28C4BD for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 268 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2008 15:07:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.3?) (chopps@rawdofmt.org@68.174.127.83 with plain) by smtp102.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2008 15:07:17 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: .LFxO7AVM1lSQT1IE34WAeLK9xY3aop6Ohsa44cXpIL5L91xYOifVu7V49yLfY3LDtEnN85t2OjTC7WEMTCwP_a2u4DOvuWOv9.Vpedj70w8bxWh5LrW8A-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-Id: <697B97FD-7AD0-48A8-84CD-F5089028B4D1@rawdofmt.org> From: Christian Hopps To: isis mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:07:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: Christian Hopps Subject: [Isis-wg] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-isis-wg-extlsp-02.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Hi Folks, The WG chairs are starting a WG Last Call on the following draft. The LC is set to expire the Monday after IETF (March 17th, 2008): Simplified Extension of LSP Space for IS-IS Thanks, Chris & Dave. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 27 00:39:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BBA28C59F; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:39:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUGzfVLO2RzF; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821423A6C52; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37DE3A68AA for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HABDlsakHA+Y for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AA43A68BB for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2008 00:38:45 -0800 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1R8cjHJ028228; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:45 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1R8ceCN009812; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:38:45 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-222.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.106]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:38:44 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:40:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt Thread-Index: Ach4eoER6N3t8TPNRYCG5xnfQL1kjwAnpK3w References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "Mike Shand (mshand)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2008 08:38:44.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[29DB9240:01C8791C] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3975; t=1204101525; x=1204965525; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ginsberg@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Les=20Ginsberg=20(ginsberg)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Isis-wg]=20draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-r oy-thomas-00.txt |Sender:=20; bh=zW6mncXKPfBOjRwYPJud063Liv7hjesR+0+j2+sFx38=; b=J7oRA0VVQfWw7btJyydgetaSHNVGYo3aHaKvSTYI+7pxXevkgoYGgPY5Za 2c6yqp6I7BRqCjPmKa8M5vTBRXfRiBLixu1VGpSq0PpfVs84fz62QY/x93Dl WZpDSReypV2VOfDvEKYRa5kP0cHZvsSVVaABU0fOgYowfCT85Xhag=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=ginsberg@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org I am in full agreement with Mike. My sense of the proposal is that it is a "solution in search of a problem". I have read the draft carefully looking for a problem statement. The closest I found was the following non-specific sentence in the Introduction: "It would be wasteful to represent such a link as a pseudonode." What Mike has meticulously demonstrated in earlier discussion on this topic on the trill mailing list and amended by his post below is that: a)The set of cases in which the suggested protocol extension has any efficiency gain (memory or SPF speed) is restricted to the 3 router case b)The efficiency gain in the three router case is very small c)The proposal increases complexity d)The proposal introduces inefficiency in the transition cases e)The proposal may break usage of the link for TE purposes To justify consideration of the proposal it seems to me that it must be compellingly demonstrated that the efficiency gain in the isolated case where it exists actually addresses a real scalability problem in a deployed network. Otherwise, we are simply tinkering - which introduces risk without offering any substantive reward. In short, there are multiple good reasons NOT to pursue this ("if it ain't broke don't fix it", Occam's Razor...). Les > -----Original Message----- > From: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Mike Shand (mshand) > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 5:21 AM > To: isis-wg@ietf.org > Subject: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt > > I am still not convinced that the mechanism proposed in this draft is a > good idea. > > 1. As I have said before, we already have the capability to describe a 2 > node pt-pt "LAN" as pt-pt links, which not only removes the pseudonode, > but uses the pt-pt update process, no DR election etc. This is a manual > configuration, but I believe that is a benefit since it warns when a > third router is accidentally connected to what is supposed to be a pt-pt > LAN. > > 2. The proposed mechanism with hysteresis means that the representation > of the network is non-deterministic. i.e. the way the network looks > depends on its previous history. > > 3. Current network management tools which display the topology will be > unable to distinguish between a 3 node LAN and 3 nodes linked by pt to > pt links. This is exacerbated by the non-determinism. > > 4. The representation of a 3 node LAN as 3 separate pt-pt links may lead > bandwidth sensitive routing (e.g. the cSPF of MPLS TE) to make wrong > decisions. This is because the single interface onto the LAN will appear > in the link state database as two independent links. > > 5. The mechanism actually results in an increase in the number of LSPs > which need to be flooded as nodes are attached and removed from the LAN. > > Consider the normal case. Going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 3 and 3 to 2 > nodes requires 2, 2, 2 & 2 new LSPs respectively. i.e. in each case the > new LSP of the attached/detached node, and a new version of the > pseudonode LSP. > > In the proposed case, using hysteresis, the same sequence requires 3, > 5, 2 and 3 (plus a purge of the pseudonode). > > i.e. 8 changed LSPs for the normal case, and 14 for the proposed case. > > All considered, this seems like additional complexity, both in terms of > implementation and in terms of manageability and impact on existing > mechanisms, for very little gain. > > We need to very carefully assess with the wider community the full > ramifications of making this change to a widely deployed protocol > because there may be many other subtle dependencies of which we are not > yet aware. > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 27 15:47:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED0528C3DE; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.463, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SsWlUaU2tZm; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B343728C395; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A70B28C347 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NzKylwaex6sA for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-mta.sunlabs.com (edge.sunlabs.com [204.153.12.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB6728C343 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sunlabs.com ([152.70.2.186]) by mail-mta.sfvic.sunlabs.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.02 (built Aug 25 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JWX001KX8Q0J910@mail-mta.sfvic.sunlabs.com> for isis-wg@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.150.37.185] ([192.18.101.5]) by mail.sunlabs.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.02 (built Aug 25 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWX004BN8PZRI10@mail.sunlabs.com> for isis-wg@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:46:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:46:45 -0800 From: Radia Perlman In-reply-to: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> To: mike shand Message-id: <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Interesting arguments, Mike. As you said, this wouldn't be worth doing for the small advantage in the case of 3 routers. The primary advantage is in avoiding pseudonodes in the case of 2 routers, and to do that in a way that avoids configuration. This doesn't preclude configuration, and doing whatever is done today. But with IS-IS used, basically, at layer 2 (in TRILL) there will be lots of pt-to-pt links, and more so the more than bridges are replaced. People like the minimal configuration of bridges. And having a topology with mostly pt-to-pt links, where someone does not want to bother configuring every port, default to having a pseudonode for every link, would be significantly wasteful. As for counting the number of LSPs -- you're counting the maximum number of LSPs, whereas with hysteresis you'd seldom switch from pseudonode to non-pseudonode. Here are a couple of compromise proposals: a) Start with "no pseudonode". If there are *ever* 3 routers, switch to pseudonode, and don't switch back, if you, as DR, ever remember there having been 3 routers. b) As with the original proposal, but have the threshold be "1" and "3". In other words, if you are the only router, don't create a pseudonode (which you don't now, unless someone issues an ES-IS Hello, right?). If you have one neighbor, then don't create a pseudonode until you wind up with 3 routers (2 neighbors), in which case you create a pseudonode. If one of them goes down, you keep it a pseudonode. Until both of your neighbors die, in which case you stop reporting the link at all, so therefore, no pseudonode. Radia mike shand wrote: > I am still not convinced that the mechanism proposed in this draft is a > good idea. > > 1. As I have said before, we already have the capability to describe a 2 > node pt-pt "LAN" as pt-pt links, which not only removes the pseudonode, > but uses the pt-pt update process, no DR election etc. This is a manual > configuration, but I believe that is a benefit since it warns when a > third router is accidentally connected to what is supposed to be a pt-pt > LAN. > > 2. The proposed mechanism with hysteresis means that the representation > of the network is non-deterministic. i.e. the way the network looks > depends on its previous history. > > 3. Current network management tools which display the topology will be > unable to distinguish between a 3 node LAN and 3 nodes linked by pt to > pt links. This is exacerbated by the non-determinism. > > 4. The representation of a 3 node LAN as 3 separate pt-pt links may lead > bandwidth sensitive routing (e.g. the cSPF of MPLS TE) to make wrong > decisions. This is because the single interface onto the LAN will appear > in the link state database as two independent links. > > 5. The mechanism actually results in an increase in the number of LSPs > which need to be flooded as nodes are attached and removed from the LAN. > > Consider the normal case. Going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 3 and 3 to 2 > nodes requires 2, 2, 2 & 2 new LSPs respectively. i.e. in each case the > new LSP of the attached/detached node, and a new version of the > pseudonode LSP. > > In the proposed case, using hysteresis, the same sequence requires 3, > 5, 2 and 3 (plus a purge of the pseudonode). > > i.e. 8 changed LSPs for the normal case, and 14 for the proposed case. > > All considered, this seems like additional complexity, both in terms of > implementation and in terms of manageability and impact on existing > mechanisms, for very little gain. > > We need to very carefully assess with the wider community the full > ramifications of making this change to a widely deployed protocol > because there may be many other subtle dependencies of which we are not > yet aware. > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 28 04:07:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7F928C384; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:07:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.128, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FRT_LITTLE=1.555, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HTML_MESSAGE=1, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m5fqRwjoSrV5; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E703A6854; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:07:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A593A67B0 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:07:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PUjarpAr+I9S for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0AB3A6D61 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2008 13:07:07 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1SC77sr021496; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:07:07 +0100 Received: from [64.103.65.102] (dhcp-gpk02-vlan300-64-103-65-102.cisco.com [64.103.65.102]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1SC76ME012610; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:07:07 GMT Message-ID: <47C6A3EA.8090703@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:07:06 +0000 From: mike shand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Radia Perlman References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5992; t=1204200427; x=1205064427; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mshand@cisco.com; z=From:=20mike=20shand=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Isis-wg]=20draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-r oy-thomas-00.txt |Sender:=20; bh=yyIx2pMzGtkf17Dva2Mrfa0Ud3qaAp0bAKeOZzeVZdM=; b=RhZ0n9qVjVIfE83WW/n5H7N3+5lLNz0FbYujghz7UVCiEzdRUqP1YUZtMZ wdXh1V5VfHFVOND6s/U9JgfEK82oLQdFXJVF+9mbkezIaZ6iYMC9Uw9XanPO JCZEOq00J0; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=mshand@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0484050645==" Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org --===============0484050645== Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Radia Perlman wrote: 
Interesting arguments, Mike.

As you said, this wouldn't be worth doing for the small advantage in the 
case of 3
routers. The primary advantage is in avoiding pseudonodes in the case of 
2 routers, and to do that in a way that avoids
configuration. This doesn't preclude configuration, and doing whatever 
is done today. But with IS-IS used, basically,
at layer 2 (in TRILL) there will be lots of pt-to-pt links, and more so 
the more than bridges are replaced.
People like the minimal configuration of bridges. And having a topology 
with mostly pt-to-pt links, where someone
does not want to bother configuring every port, default to having a 
pseudonode for every link, would be significantly wasteful.
I'm not sure I consider an extra 50 or so bytes per link as *significantly* wasteful.

And if there really are mostly pt-pt links why wouldn't you have the default configuration to be pt-pt LAN, which removes the periodic CSNP as well?

Then the only configuration would be if you had a rare case of multiple routers on a LAN.
As for counting the number of LSPs -- you're counting the maximum number 
of LSPs, whereas with hysteresis you'd
seldom switch from pseudonode to non-pseudonode.
Yes, that's true. But if you DO have to switch, the LSP churn is greater than normal. I'm just trying to show how slim an optimization this really is.

Here are a couple of compromise proposals:

a) Start with "no pseudonode". If there are *ever* 3 routers, switch to 
pseudonode, and don't switch back, if you, as DR, ever remember
there having been 3 routers.

b) As with the original proposal, but have the threshold be "1" and "3". 
In other words, if you are the only router, don't create
a pseudonode (which you don't now, unless someone issues an ES-IS Hello, 
right?). If you have one neighbor, then don't
create a pseudonode until you wind up with 3 routers (2 neighbors), in 
which case you create a pseudonode. If one of them
goes down, you keep it a pseudonode. Until both of your neighbors die, 
in which case you stop reporting the link at all, so
therefore, no pseudonode.

Always having a psuedonode for n=3 (and above) would remove the ambiguity about exactly what topology you have. I'd still be a l;ittle concerned about historical dependency.

But I still think this is all not worth the very small optimization it gives you.

    Mike

Radia






mike shand wrote:
  
I am still not convinced that the mechanism proposed in this draft is a
good idea.

1. As I have said before, we already have the capability to describe a 2
node pt-pt "LAN" as pt-pt links, which not only removes the pseudonode,
but uses the pt-pt update process, no DR election etc. This is a manual
configuration, but I believe that is a benefit since it warns when a
third router is accidentally connected to what is supposed to be a pt-pt
LAN.

2. The proposed mechanism with hysteresis means that the representation
of the network is non-deterministic. i.e. the way the network looks
depends on its previous history.

3. Current network management tools which display the topology will be
unable to distinguish between a 3 node LAN and 3 nodes linked by pt to
pt links. This is exacerbated by the non-determinism.

4. The representation of a 3 node LAN as 3 separate pt-pt links may lead
bandwidth sensitive routing (e.g. the cSPF of MPLS TE) to make wrong
decisions. This is because the single interface onto the LAN will appear
in the link state database as two independent links.

5. The mechanism actually results in an increase in the number of LSPs
which need to be flooded as nodes are attached and removed from the LAN.

Consider the normal case. Going from 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 3 and 3 to 2
nodes requires 2, 2, 2 & 2 new LSPs respectively. i.e. in each case the
new LSP of the attached/detached node, and a new version of the
pseudonode LSP.

In the proposed case, using hysteresis, the same  sequence requires 3,
5, 2 and 3 (plus a purge of the pseudonode).

i.e. 8 changed LSPs for the normal case, and 14 for the proposed case.

All considered, this seems like additional complexity, both in terms of
implementation and in terms of manageability and impact on existing
mechanisms, for very little gain.

We need to very carefully assess with the wider community the full
ramifications of making this change to a widely deployed protocol
because there may be many other subtle dependencies of which we are not
yet aware.

    Mike


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg

--===============0484050645== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg --===============0484050645==-- From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 09:55:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADB53A6D3D; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:55:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.158 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.158 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.721, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ZiNPPmwYgBt; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57033A6D17; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495BE28C35D for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DxV4WXQPU-uz for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp102.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp102.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com [68.142.229.216]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A29D43A6BB2 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6677 invoked from network); 29 Feb 2008 17:55:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.2?) (chopps@rawdofmt.org@64.102.254.33 with plain) by smtp102.biz.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Feb 2008 17:55:38 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: oiCWllUVM1muMbHes7kYgWQ5EUnAYF1mGp2nJyEMtONs8Lp_Q6WHLk9jua5cXMxgV5D3v87AqQqPRKpGKWqhP1ASRdttRyo15KbLNkz.s1vnAOGDnvtK7A-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-Id: <816AC2D0-3D53-4B79-BF1E-1D94C051B627@rawdofmt.org> From: Christian Hopps To: isis mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:55:35 -0500 References: <1984CCE7-FEFA-444A-BA48-885CFE56ED1F@rawdofmt.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: Christian Hopps Subject: [Isis-wg] IETF-71 Proposed Agenda X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org The proposed agenda for IETF-71 has been posted and is included below. If other people have slot requests please make them soon. http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/agenda/isis.txt - Chris & Dave Proposed Agenda --------------- 5m - Intro, Adminastriva, Document Status 10m - IS-IS BFD Enabled TLV - Les Ginsberg draft-ietf-isis-bfd-tlv-00.txt 5m - GENAPP Update - Les Ginsberg draft-ietf-isis-genapp-00.txt 5m - IS-IS Multi-Instance - Stefano Previdi draft-ietf-isis-mi-00.txt 15m - Automatic Method for Minimization of Extraneous Pseudonodes in IS-IS - TBD draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 13:21:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3493A3A6F2B; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:21:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uu0sHBrowghX; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E073A6DB8; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8943A6805 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLdP7IRvkHh9 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-mta.sunlabs.com (edge.sunlabs.com [204.153.12.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4889F3A6A56 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sunlabs.com ([152.70.2.186]) by mail-mta.sfvic.sunlabs.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.02 (built Aug 25 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JX0006CJRA89T10@mail-mta.sfvic.sunlabs.com> for isis-wg@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.31.4.30] ([12.158.70.164]) by mail.sunlabs.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.02 (built Aug 25 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0JX0009P9RA6DV00@mail.sunlabs.com> for isis-wg@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:28 -0800 From: Radia Perlman In-reply-to: <47C6A3EA.8090703@cisco.com> To: mike shand Message-id: <47C8771C.4090008@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com> <47C6A3EA.8090703@cisco.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org If it's mostly pt-to-pt links, then 50% more nodes does not seem like trivial overhead. It's not just bytes. It's also computation time. And if people don't want to configure things, what would you want an RBridge to do if a 3rd RBridge shows up? If the answer is, adapt and revert to pseudonode, then it's basically what I'm proposing. If it's "always act like fully connected pt-to-pt links in that case", then things will work, but I worry about the transition time when people have very large bridged networks and without configuration you might wind up with 15-node fully connected topologies. It's really not complicated to just start with pt-to-pt and then switch over when there's more routers, especially if it avoids configuration. Radia mike shand wrote: >> > I'm not sure I consider an extra 50 or so bytes per link as > *significantly* wasteful. > > And if there really are mostly pt-pt links why wouldn't you have the > default configuration to be pt-pt LAN, which removes the periodic CSNP > as well? > > Then the only configuration would be if you had a rare case of > multiple routers on a LAN. _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 13:51:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A66228C767; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.926 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.926 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.489, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d0zulzoUGs9z; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514FD3A6EF9; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FDC3A6F10 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jZs2lxWu39am for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D583A6DBD for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Feb 2008 13:51:34 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1TLpXBr022739; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:33 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1TLpTcH012528; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:51:33 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-222.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.106]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:51:33 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:53:14 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47C8771C.4090008@sun.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt Thread-Index: Ach7GPruCz1dGBrCS2iHbQp/UlGf8gAA+mWQ References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com><47C6A3EA.8090703@cisco.com> <47C8771C.4090008@sun.com> From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "Radia Perlman" , "Mike Shand (mshand)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2008 21:51:33.0484 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FCEBAC0:01C87B1D] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2142; t=1204321893; x=1205185893; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ginsberg@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Les=20Ginsberg=20(ginsberg)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Isis-wg]=20draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-r oy-thomas-00.txt |Sender:=20; bh=b5WWnBWv8pNZaQlogdUuxajzvrV8yvTVXUvtfQilMfk=; b=xcx7Iv3UyoA7TaGE0k7WzMaDX+ptoCXwydXhcygyKcXuMOwKrYNUid9DfY 5kSX8jR2MJyV1HaytxA7XY/EeUsM4mo/+/TKZzfjYUSXi57DXZBxZYqRi8px oCEvKsRVOL; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=ginsberg@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Radia - If you cannot guarantee that all LANs will be able to operate in Pt-Pt mode, then the easy answer to the no configuration requirement is to operate all LANs in normal mode. The extra cost of doing so in both the 2 neighbor and 3 neighbor case has been demonstrated by Mike to be very small (both in memory and CPU) - a point which you consistently fail to acknowledge - despite your profuse thanks to Mike for doing the calculations. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Radia Perlman > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 1:20 PM > To: Mike Shand (mshand) > Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt > > If it's mostly pt-to-pt links, then 50% more nodes does not seem like > trivial overhead. It's not just bytes. It's also > computation time. > > And if people don't want to configure things, what would you want an > RBridge to do if a 3rd RBridge shows up? If the > answer is, adapt and revert to pseudonode, then it's basically what I'm > proposing. If it's "always act like fully connected pt-to-pt links > in that case", then things will work, but I worry about the transition > time when people have very large bridged networks and without > configuration you might wind up with 15-node fully connected topologies. > > It's really not complicated to just start with pt-to-pt and then switch > over when there's more routers, especially if it avoids > configuration. > > Radia > > > > mike shand wrote: > >> > > I'm not sure I consider an extra 50 or so bytes per link as > > *significantly* wasteful. > > > > And if there really are mostly pt-pt links why wouldn't you have the > > default configuration to be pt-pt LAN, which removes the periodic CSNP > > as well? > > > > Then the only configuration would be if you had a rare case of > > multiple routers on a LAN. > > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 14:10:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7028E28C86B; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.466, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ryni+SilK-iT; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B813A6F24; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483F73A685C for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:10:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgmT6tCAQ9at for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.43.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12C128C761 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-east-02.east.sun.com ([129.148.13.5]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1TMANTP021702 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:10:26 GMT Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by dm-east-02.east.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id m1TMANXb028128 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 17:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from phorcys.east.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1TLpbLT010188; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.east.sun.com (8.14.2+Sun/8.14.2/Submit) id m1TLpbIi010185; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:51:37 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <18376.32361.309188.196451@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:51:37 -0500 From: James Carlson To: Radia Perlman In-Reply-To: <47C8771C.4090008@sun.com> References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com> <47C6A3EA.8090703@cisco.com> <47C8771C.4090008@sun.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 Cc: isis-wg@ietf.org, mike shand Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Radia Perlman writes: > If it's mostly pt-to-pt links, then 50% more nodes does not seem like > trivial overhead. It's not just bytes. It's also > computation time. I think this case is interesting because it very likely occurs with a fully-deployed TRILL network. In the case of TRILL, because each node is behaving as a layer 2 bridge, and because 10BASE-[25] are pretty dead, the links will almost certainly all be connected point-to-point but (again because this is bridging) using 802 broadcast-type media. And because this is bridging, and TRILL is meant to replace existing bridges which generally default to useful settings, zero-configuration is very highly desirable. Thus we can't rule out accomodating occasional (but rare) links that are connected to repeaters or old-style bridges and thus have three or more nodes on them. The result is that you very likely get into a case where you've got almost all point-to-point connections among a large number of nodes using broadcast-type interfaces. Each of those (without special configuration) requires an extra pseudonode, which is (as Radia's pointing out) a waste of everyone's time, bandwidth, cycles, and memory. Perhaps the real argument here is that because the motivation behind this is tied to artifacts of TRILL deployment, it ought not be made generic, and instead be made part of the special IS-IS variant used for TRILL (and any other case where all your Ethernet ports end up being just point-to-point). -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 14:58:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-isis-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C707E28C897; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.651, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0SGvoAqq-Iqm; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35733A6F24; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: isis-wg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453C028C654 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ECZ2qBtaTY1T for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og109.obsmtp.com (exprod7og109.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72B228C897 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) by exprod7ob109.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:55:15 PST Received: from magenta.juniper.net ([172.17.27.123]) by emailsmtp56.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:47:37 -0800 Received: from nimbus-sc.juniper.net (nimbus-sc.juniper.net [172.16.12.13]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id m1TMlaq28269; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:47:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) Message-Id: <6028B2D9-2B65-4164-B6A6-69AE1997BF52@juniper.net> From: Dave Katz To: James Carlson In-Reply-To: <18376.32361.309188.196451@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:47:31 -0800 References: <47C41249.7070004@cisco.com> <47C5F665.6070708@sun.com> <47C6A3EA.8090703@cisco.com> <47C8771C.4090008@sun.com> <18376.32361.309188.196451@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2008 22:47:37.0053 (UTC) FILETIME=[14A6A0D0:01C87B25] Cc: Radia Perlman , isis-wg@ietf.org, mike shand Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-isis-pseudo-perlman-roy-thomas-00.txt X-BeenThere: isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IS-IS working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org I missed the beginning of this exchange, but I'm curious as to what the *real* (as in "seconds" and "dollars" and "gigabytes" and "megabits") costs are that are trying to be optimized. Last I heard, computational capacity and memory and bandwidth were perilously close to being free, so the win has to be really big (in real COGS in a real product, or a measurable percentage of bandwidth, or a noticeable number of milliseconds in time) to make additional complexity worthwhile, especially when traded off against the real dollar costs of modifying and testing existing implementations. There was a proposal a few months back for a stripped down OSPF that was supposed to be so much easier to implement, except that it was incompatible with the existing protocol (which everyone has to implement anyhow) and was probably an utterly pointless exercise even if it *was* backward compatible due to the costs to the industry of implementation. But it was more "efficient." I'm also reminded of all of the effort put into various partial SPF optimizations. They may make 100,000 node networks work better, but SPF isn't the problem in a 100,000 node network. And heck, a bunch of the complexity in OSPF itself is due to optimizations for things that didn't matter a whole lot in 1989 and sure don't matter now. I suppose it kept out the riffraff though. I have a rule of thumb in coding that says that if the gain isn't better than linear, it doesn't really help scaling. Anyhow, "50%" sounds like a big number, but what does this mean in bytes and milliseconds for typical deployments? --Dave On Feb 29, 2008, at 1:51 PM, James Carlson wrote: > Radia Perlman writes: >> If it's mostly pt-to-pt links, then 50% more nodes does not seem like >> trivial overhead. It's not just bytes. It's also >> computation time. > > I think this case is interesting because it very likely occurs with a > fully-deployed TRILL network. In the case of TRILL, because each node > is behaving as a layer 2 bridge, and because 10BASE-[25] are pretty > dead, the links will almost certainly all be connected point-to-point > but (again because this is bridging) using 802 broadcast-type media. > > And because this is bridging, and TRILL is meant to replace existing > bridges which generally default to useful settings, zero-configuration > is very highly desirable. Thus we can't rule out accomodating > occasional (but rare) links that are connected to repeaters or > old-style bridges and thus have three or more nodes on them. > > The result is that you very likely get into a case where you've got > almost all point-to-point connections among a large number of nodes > using broadcast-type interfaces. Each of those (without special > configuration) requires an extra pseudonode, which is (as Radia's > pointing out) a waste of everyone's time, bandwidth, cycles, and > memory. > > Perhaps the real argument here is that because the motivation behind > this is tied to artifacts of TRILL deployment, it ought not be made > generic, and instead be made part of the special IS-IS variant used > for TRILL (and any other case where all your Ethernet ports end up > being just point-to-point). > > -- > James Carlson, Solaris Networking > > Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 > 2084 > MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 > 1677 > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > _______________________________________________ Isis-wg mailing list Isis-wg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg