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Thread-Topic: [Isms] Proposed SSH Transport Address Changes (and a quick nit)
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Subject: Re: [Isms] Proposed SSH Transport Address Changes (and a quick nit)
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
> 
> DH> I am of the impression this would require yet another 
> DH> mapping table to support a feature that is not needed by 
> DH> everybody. 
> 
> Actually, I think it drops the need for one.

This reply comes a bit late... but I think I agree with Wes here:
allowing "user@host" as SSH transport address could drop the need 
for one mapping table on notification originators (it's not that
important for command generators).

An administrator configuring TARGET-MIB will of course include the
securityName used for VACM, but that's *our* name for the *recipient*
(e.g. "joe", an administrator).  To actually open the SSH connection,
SSH will need to send *their* name for *us* (e.g. "router134").

Configuring an extra table mapping "joe,192.0.2.1" to "router134" will
of course work, but allowing "router134@192.0.2.1" as transport
address could be simpler to deploy.

(SSH will still need a mapping from "192.0.2.1" to the host public
key, and from "router134@192.0.2.1" to the password/private key,
but IMHO those really belong in SSH module, not on SNMP side.)

Best regards,
Pasi
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From isms-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Aug  6 07:17:23 2008
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From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Isms] Proposed SSH Transport Address Changes (and a quick nit)
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--On Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:33:48 PM +0300 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:

> Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>
>> DH> I am of the impression this would require yet another
>> DH> mapping table to support a feature that is not needed by
>> DH> everybody.
>>
>> Actually, I think it drops the need for one.
>
> This reply comes a bit late... but I think I agree with Wes here:
> allowing "user@host" as SSH transport address could drop the need
> for one mapping table on notification originators (it's not that
> important for command generators).

+1

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From isms-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Aug  9 12:03:50 2008
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: [Isms] consider to volunteer for nomcom
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Hi,

please consider volunteering for the nomcom.

/js

----- Forwarded message from NomCom Chair <nomcom-chair@ietf.org> -----

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From: NomCom Chair <nomcom-chair@ietf.org>
To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Please ask your WG... 
Date: Sun,  3 Aug 2008 07:43:22 -0700 (PDT)

To volunteer for the nomcom.
The nomcom process is (in my opinion) better served by a large pool of
volunteers drawn from a wide spectrum of IETF attendees.
As such, please ask on your individual mailing lists for folks to
volunteer.

Obviously, the exact method for doing so is up to you.
The most recent call for volunteers can be reference here:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/show_nomcom_message.cgi?id=1617
Whether you copy that message, or reference is probably up to you and the
habits of your working group mailing list.
If you want to reference or copy the status message I sent out, that can
be found at:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/show_nomcom_message.cgi?id=1618

Thank you,
Joel M. Halpern
Nomcom Chair
jmh@joelahlpern.com
nomcom-chair@ietf.org

----- End forwarded message -----
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Subject: [Isms] Comments on ISMS drafts
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------=_Part_9_16883203.1218493522073
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As part of preparing for the ISMS session at IETF 72, I read through
most of the relevant drafts shortly before the meeting.  As someone
coming to this from an SNMP perspective, with no particular security
expertise, I found the proposed mechanisms to be reasonably clear
and understandable.  However, in a number of places throughout the
various drafts, I sometime had to read a section two or three times
to be sure that I had grasped what was being proposed.

In particular, there are several concepts common to the Transport
Subsystem and Transport Security Model, and hence covered in both
(or all three) documents.  However the individual descriptions are
sometimes incomplete or inconsistent.  It proved necessary to read
all three documents in detail, to fully understand what is required.
Similarly, the terminology used is not entirely consistent between
the three documents.

 I therefore offer the attached comments as a (somewhat verbose!)
attempt to clarify text that I found to be less than straightforward to
follow.  In most cases, I don't believe that these suggestions should
affect the content of the proposals themselves - they are mostly
simply wordsmithing of the descriptive text.

 There are also a number of places where I found the current drafts
ambiguous or inconsistent.  I have attempted to identify these issues
and sometime propose possible solutions.  These may involve some
minor amendments to the proposed behaviour - particularly as relating
to the mapping of security names.

 Naturally, you are free to adopt or reject any/all of these
suggestions as you see fit.

Dave

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_______________________________________________
Isms mailing list
Isms@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isms

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From isms-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Aug 13 07:12:07 2008
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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:11:21 +0100
From: Dave Shield <D.T.Shield@liverpool.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [Isms] Comments on ISMS drafts - general and Transport subsystem
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I've just realised that the comments on the ISMS drafts
which I sent a couple of days ago, were attached as
un-typed binary files, which probably wasn't very helpful!

I'm therefore trying again, with the comment files explicitly
marked as text.   This message includes my general comments
on the tmStateReference cache, and those on the Transport
subsystem draft.   I'll send my comments on the Security
Model and SSH Transport drafts separately.

Dave

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ISMS General Comments
=====================

tmStateReference cache
----------------------

The main concept of the ISMS proposal seems to be for the transport
subsystem to cooperate with the Security subsystem, in order to use
transport-level security parameters for authentication and authorization.
The mechanism used for this purpose is a 'tmStateReference cache'.
As such, there needs to be a common understanding of the contents of
this cache - both in terms of what information it will contain, and
how that information should be used.   However the three main ISMS
documents contain significantly different descriptions of this cache,
with the Transport Subsystem document (in particular) being very vague
about what information should be included.

  It would seem sensible to have a consistent description shared by
all three documents - probably by repeating essentially the same text
each time.  (Possibly augmented by any local considerations).

  <proposal>
     X.  Cached Information and References

     When performing SNMP processing, there are two levels of state
   information that may need to be retained:  the immediate state
   linking a request-response pair, and potentially longer-term state
   relating to the processing of a stream of related requests.

   The RFC3411 architecture uses caches to maintain the short-term
   message state, and uses references in the ASIs to pass this
   information between subsystems.

   This document defines the requirements for a cache to handle the
   longer-term transport state information, using a tmStateReference
   parameter to pass this information between subsystems.

   To simplify the elements of procedure, the release of state
   information is not always explicitly specified.  As a general rule,
   if state information is available when a message being processed
   gets discarded, the state related to that message should also be
   discarded.  If state information is available when a relationship
   between engines is severed, such as the closing of a transport
   session, the state information for that relationship might also
   be discarded.

     X.1.  securityStateReference cache

   The securityStateReference parameter is defined in RFC3411.  Its
   primary purpose is to provide a mapping between a request and the
   corresponding response.   This cache is not accessible to Transport
   Models, and an entry is typically only retained for the lifetime of
   a request-response pair of messages.

     X.2.  tmStateReference cache

   For each transport session, information about the transport security
   is stored in a cache.  The tmStateReference parameter is used to
   pass model- and mechanism-specific parameters between the Transport
   subsystem and transport-aware Security Models.

   The tmStateReference cache will typically remain valid for the duration
   of the transport session, and hence may be used for several messages.

   Since this cache is only used within an implementation, and not
   on-the-wire, the precise contents and format are implementation-
   dependent.  However, for interoperability between Transport Models
   and transport-aware Security Models, entries in this cache must
   include at least the following fields:

     - transportDomain
     - transportAddress
     - tmSecurityName
     - tmSecurityLevel   (but see below)
     - tmSameSecurity
     - tmSessionID

     X.2.1.  Transport information

     Information about the source of an incoming SNMP message is passed up
   from the Transport subsystem as far as the Message Processing subsystem.
   However these parameters are not included in the processIncomingMsg ASI
   defined in RFC3411, and hence this information is not directly available
   to the Security Model.

   A transport-aware Security Model might wish to take account of the
   transport protocol and originating address when authenticating the
   request, and setting up the authorization parameters.  It is therefore
   necessary for the Transport Model to include this information in the
   tmStateReference cache, so that it is accessible to the Security Model.
   
     - transportDomain
         the transport protocol (and hence the Transport Model) used to 
         receive the incoming message

     - transportAddress
         the source of the incoming message.

   Note that the ASIs used for processing an outgoing message all
   include explicit transportDomain and transportAddress parameters.
   These fields within the tmStateReference cache will typically
   not be used for outgoing messages.

     X.2.2.  securityName

     There are actually three distinct "identities" that can be
   identified during the processing of an SNMP request over a secure
   transport:

     - transport principal:
         the transport-authenticated identity, on whose behalf the
         secure transport connection was (or should be) established.
         This value is transport-, mechanism- and implementation-
         specific, and is only used within a given Transport Model.

     - tmSecurityName:
         a human-readable name (in snmpAdminString format)
         representing this transport identity.  This value is
         transport- and implementation-specific, and is only
         used (directly) by the Transport and Security Models.

     - securityName:
         a human-readable name (in snmpAdminString format) representing
         the SNMP principal in a model-independent manner.

   Note that the transport principal may or may not be the same as
   the tmSecurityName.  Similarly, the tmSecurityName may or may not
   be the same as the securityName as seen by the Application and
   Access Control subsystems.   In particular, a non-transport-aware
   Security Model will ignore tmSecurityName completely when determining
   the SNMP securityName.

   However it is important that the mapping between the transport
   principal and the SNMP securityName (for transport-aware Security
   Models) is consistent and predictable, to allow configuration of
   suitable access control and the establishment of transport connections.

     X.2.3.  securityLevel

     There are two distinct issues relating to security level as
   applied to secure transports.  For clarity, these are handled
   by separate fields in the tmStateReference cache:

     - tmTransportSecurityLevel:
         an indication from the Transport Model of the level of
         security offered by this session.  The Security Model
         can use this to ensure that incoming messages were
         suitably protected before acting on them.

     - tmRequestedSecurityLevel:
         an indication from the Security Model of the level
         of security required to be provided by the transport
         protocol.   The Transport Model can use this to
         ensure that outgoing messages will not be sent over
         an insufficiently secure session.

     X.2.4.  Session information

     For security reasons, if a secure transport session is closed
   between the time a request message is received and the corresponding
   response message is sent, then the response message SHOULD be
   discarded, even if a new session has been established.  The SNMPv3
   WG decided that this should be a SHOULD architecturally, and it is
   a security-model-specific decision whether to REQUIRE this.

    - tmSameSecurity:
        this flag is used by a transport-aware Security Model
        to indicate whether the Transport Model should enforce
        this restriction.

    - tmSessionID:
        in order to verify whether the session has changed, the
        Transport Model must be able to compare the session used
        to receive the original request with the one to be used
        to send the response.  This typically requires some form
        of session identifier.  This value is only ever used by
        the Transport Model, so the format and interpretation of
        this field are model- and implementation-dependent.
  </proposal>


Qn:
  The above text describes the tmStateReference cache as a per-session
structure (following the lead of the Transport subsystem document).
However the tmSameSecurity and tmRequestedSecurityLevel fields work on
a per-message.  Is this a problem?   If so, how should it be handled?



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Transport Subsystem
===================

Sections 1.2 & 1.3
  The other two documents start with Internet-Standard Management
Framework and Conventions followed by a section on Modularity.
The Transport subsystem document has the modularity diagram
coming *before* the section on Conventions.

  <proposal>
     Switch these two sections around.

     1.2.  Conventions
     1.3.  Modularity    [Note: new title]
  </proposal>

(This would also probably avoid the large blank space on p3!)


(new) Section 1.4
  The other two documents also include a section on Constraints, which
is missing from the subsystem document.  It would be sensible to include
the same section here, as a guide to developers of new Transport Models,
who might use this document as a template.


Section 2, paragraph 2
  The description of the "third approach" is very long and detailed.
This tends to obscure the basic point.

  <proposal>
     ... In the third approach, he could hire a security company,
   tell them what he wants protected, and leave the details to them.
   Considerations of hiring and training employees, positioning
   and scheduling guards, arranging for cover, etc. are then the
   responsibility of the security company.  The individual therefore
   achieves the desired security, wth no significant effort...
  </proposal>


Section 2, paragraph 4
  This text half-reads as a justification of whether it is possible to
use USM at all.   The intended key point is presumably that operators
would prefer an integrated approach.

  <proposal>
   ... USM therefore requires a separate principal and key management
   infrastructure, either configured using SNMP itself, or via some
   external mechanism.  However operators have reported that requiring
   such a separate infrastructure is a deterrent to deploying SNMPv3.
   It would be preferable to leverage a single user base that wasn't
   specific to SNMP.
  </proposal>


Section 2, paragraphs 5&6
  Both of these paragraphs lead with the domestic security analogy,
and this tends to obscure the SNMP aspects somewhat.  The emphasis
should probably be on the options for SNMP authentication, etc.

  <proposal>
     A USM-compliant architecture might combine the authentication
   mechanism with an external mechanism, such as RADIUS [RFC2865],
   to provide the authentication service.  Similarly it might be
   possible to utilize an external protocol to encrypt a message,
   to check timeliness, to check data integrity, etc.  However this
   corresponds to the second approach - requiring the coordination
   of a number of differenty subcontracted services.  Building solid
   security between the various services is difficult, and there is
   a significant potential for gaps in security.

   An alternative approach might be to utilize one or more lower-layer
   security mechanisms to provide the message-oriented security
   services required.  These would include authentication of the
   sender, encryption, timeliness checking, and data integrity checking.
   This corresponds to the third approach described above.
   There are a number of IETF standards ....
  </proposal>


Section 3.1
  Is it necessary to reference RFC 3411 both before *and* after the
list of threats?

  <proposal>
   Delete " [RFC3411]" from before the list of threats
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.1, paragraph 1

  <proposal>
     s/SHOULD/should/
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.1, paragraph 2
  I'm still not entirely sure what the last sentence is trying to say.
The following encapsulates what I *think* it's referring to:

  <proposal confidence=0>
   It is recommended that any proposed Transport Model include
   a description of the applicability of the relevant security
   protocol(s) for use in that Transport Model.
  </proposal>

If I have misunderstood the purpose of this sentence, then some fuller
explanation would probably be useful.


Section 3.1.1, paragraph 3, sentence 2

  <proposal>
    s/would/could/    i.e.
    ... in ways that could impact other existing usages. ...
  </proposal>


Section 3.2.1
  The description of the existing architecture (in paragraph 2) lists
the components in a seemingly random order.  It would be more natural
to list these in the order that they are used (as in the diagram on p4).

The third sentence of the same paragraph is perhaps a little too strong.

The rest of this section doesn't really seem to hang together very well.
A re-ordering of the same basic material would probably provide a more
coherent explanation of how the Transport subsystem fits into the basic
RFC3411 architectural requirements.

In particular, paragraphs 3&6 feel to be directly related, and could
usefully be merged.  It would also be worth emphasising the functional
benefits of a Transport subsystem, rather than the implications for
IETF progression.

The motivation behind the Transport Subsystem (in paragraph 5), and
listing particular examples, isn't really directly relevant to the idea
of mandatory elements.  Mentioning them here serves to obscure the
main point of the paragraph.

  <proposal>
     3.2.1.  Architectural Modularity Requirements

   SNMP version 3 (SNMPv3) is based on a modular architecture (defined
   in [RFC3411] section 3) to allow the evolution of the SNMP protocol
   standards over time, and to minimize side effects between subsystems
   when changes are made.

   The RFC3411 architecture includes a Message Processing Subsystem
   permitting different message versions to be handled by a single
   engine, a Security Subsystem for enabling different methods of
   providing security services, an Access Control Subsystem for
   allowing multiple approaches to access control, and Application(s)
   to support different type of application processors.  The RFC3411
   architecture does not include a subsystem for Transport Models,
   despite the fact that there are multiple transport mappings already
   defined for SNMP.  This document proposes a Transport Subsystem that
   is compatible with the RFC3411 architecture.  As work is being done
   to use secure transports such as SSH and TLS, using a sbsystem will
   enable consistent design and modularity of such Transport Models.

   The design of this Transport Subsystem accepts the goals of the
   RFC3411 architecture defined in section 1.5 of [RFC3411].  This
   Transport Subsystem uses a modular design that permits multiple
   transport protocols to be "plugged into" the RFC3411 architecture,
   supported by corresponding Transport Models (which may or may not
   be security-aware).  Such Transport Models would be independent of
   other modular SNMP components as much as possible.  This design
   also permits Transport Models to be advanced through the standards
   process independently of other Transport Models.

   To encourage a basic level of interoperability, IETF standards
   typically require one mandatory-to-implement solution, with the
   capability of adding new mechanisms in the future.  Any Transport
   Model SHOULD define one minimum-compliance security mechanism, but
   should also be able to support additional existing and new mechanisms.

   The following diagram depicts the SNMPv3 architecture including the
   new Transport Subsystem defined in this document, and a new Transport
   Security Model defined in [I-D.ietf-isms-transport-security-model].
  </proposal>

Qn: Is it intended to specify SSH-TM as the basic interoperability
    secure Transport Model?  If so, it would probably be sensible
    to state this explicitly somewhere.  The end of the penultimate
    paragraph above would seem an obvious place to do this.


Section 3.2.1, paragraphs 4,7&8
  These three paragraphs discuss *changes* to the basic RFC3411 model
(over and above the simple introduction of the Transport Subsystem).
It would probably be worth pulling these out into a separate subsection,
to emphasise this fact.   The following text also omits some unnecessary
detail, which tended to obscure the basic ideas being described.

  <proposal location=after_diagram_on_p10>
     3.2.1.1.  Changes to RFC3411 architecture

     The RFC3411 architecture and the Security Subsystem assume that
   a Security Model is called by a Message Processing Model and will
   perform multiple security functions within the Security Subsystem.
   A Transport Model that supports a secure transport protocol might
   perform similar security functions within the Transport Subsystem,
   including the translation of transport security parameters to/from
   security-model-independent parameters.

   To accommodate this, an implementation-specific cache of transport-
   specific information will be described (not shown), and the data
   flows between modules on this path will be extended to pass
   security-model-independent transport information.   Note that this
   document amends some of the ASIs defined in RFC 3411, and these
   changes are covered in sections 6.2 and 6.4.

   New Security Models may be defined that understand how to work
   with these modified ASIs and the transport-information cache.
   One such Security Model, the Transport Security Model, is defined
   in [I-D.ietf-isms-transport-security-model]
  <proposal>


(current) Section 3.2.1.1
  This isn't really specific to USM - it actually seems to be discussing
the processing differences as compared to the current RFC3411 architecture
when used with *any* (non-trivial) Security Model.
Again, there is an excess of detail which serves to obscure the main
point of the paragraph.

This subsection would also need to be renumbered, if the new subsection
proposed above is included.

  <proposal>
     3.2.1.2.  Changes to RFC3411 processing

     The introduction of secure transports also affects the (security?)
   responsibilities and order of processing within the RFC3411
   architecture.  While the steps are the same, they may occur in a
   different order, and may be done by different subsystems.  With
   the existing RFC3411 architecture, security processing starts when
   the Message Processing Model decodes portions of the encoded message
   to extract parameters that identify which Security Model should
   handle the security-related tasks.

   A secure transport performs those security functions on the message,
   *before* the message is decoded.  Note that some of these functions
   might then be repeated by the selected Security Model.
  </proposal>

I believe this last sentence is true - particularly if the message
specifies a non-TM-aware Security Model, such as USM.   This may or
may not be relevant, but it seems worth mentioning.


(current) Section 3.2.1.2

  <proposal>
     3.2.1.3.  Passing Information between SNMP Engines

     s/other SNMP engine/other/
  </proposal>


Section 3.2.2.1, paragraph 4
  The first three paragraphs of this section outline the current RFC3411
architecture.  This final paragraph seems to describe the implications of
adding a secure Transport Model, but this isn't immediately obvious.

  <proposal>
     The introduction of a secure transport protocol means that the
   translation from a mechanism-specific identity to a securityName
   might also be done by a Transport Model.  This proposed securityName
   might then be made available to the Security Model, together with an
   indication of the level of security provided by the transport layer.
   A Security Model might have multiple ...

   (in the final sentence) 
     s/made available/proposed/
  </proposal>


Section 3.2.3, paragraph 2-4
  This text should probably concentrate on the handling of security
parameters, rather than providing unnecessary details of the processing
within the Security Module.

  The intended meaning of paragraph 4 remains somewhat unclear to me,
particularly as it might relate to the passing of security parameters
between subsystems.  It seems to be discussing the purpose and actions
of a Security Model, when used with a security-aware Transport Model.
However this does not seem to be concerned with the handling of security
parameters.  No proposed alternative is suggested for this text, as I
would question whether this paragraph should appear here at all.

  <proposal>
     A Message Processing Model might unpack SNMP-specific security
   parameters from an incoming message before calling a specific
   Security Model to handle the security-related processing of the
   message.  When using a secure Transport Model, some security
   parameters might be extracted from the transport layer by this
   model before the message is passed to the Message Processing
   Subsystem.  This information should also be made available to 
   the Security Model.

   This document describes a cache mechanism (see section 5), into which
   the Transport Model puts information about the transport and security
   parameters applied to a transport connection or incoming message, and
   from which a Security Model may extract this information. 
   A tmStateReference is passed as an extra parameter in the ASIs
   between the Transport, Message Processing and Security Subsystems, to
   identify the relevant cache.  This approach of passing a model-
   independent reference is consistent with the securityStateReference
   cache passed between the Security, Access Control and Applicaion
   subsystems in the RFC3411 ASIs.
  </proposal>


Section 3.2.4, paragraphs 2&3
  The first sentence of paragraph 2 is inconsistent in its use of tense.
The rest of the paragraph seems to be talking about the modular nature
of the access control framework, but doesn't actually say so.  It's not
immediately clear how this relates to the concept of authentication vs
authorization (and the separation between them).

  <proposal>
   This separation was a deliberate decision of the SNMPv3 WG, to allow
   support for authentication protocols which do not provide data access
   authorization capabilities, and to support data access authorization
   schemes, such as VACM, that do not perform their own authentication.

   A Message Processing Model determines which Security Model is used,
   either based on the message version (e.g. SNMPv1 and SNMPv2c), or
   possibly by a value specified in the message (e.g. msgSecurityModel
   field in SNMPv3).
  </proposal>


Section 3.2.4, paragraphs 6&7
  More generally, the first five paragraphs of this section seem to
be summarising the overall security-related aspects of the RFC3411
architecture, with paragraphs six and seven disussing the implications
for the Transport Model subsystem.  However these latter concentrates
on the interactions with the Message Processing and Security subsystems
(which have already been covered), and does not really address interaction
with the Access Control subsystem.  Presumably because there isn't any,
given the separation between Authentication and Authorization!

  The obvious thing to cover here would be a summary of the recent
discussion regarding transport-independent vs transport-dependent
securityName mappings, as passed from the Security subsystem up to the
Access Control and Application subsystems.  The proposed prefix-based
mapping would more sensibly be covered in the TSM document, but this
section could at least prepare the ground for that mechanism.

  <proposal>
     A Transport Model does not know what Security Model will be used
   for an incoming message, so cannot know how the securityName and
   securityLevel parameters will be determined.  It can propose an
   authenticated identity (via the tmSecurityName field), but there
   is no guarantee that this value will be used by the Security Model.
   For example, non-transport-aware Security Models will typically
   determine the securityName (and securityLevel) based on the contents
   of the SNMP message itself.  Such Security Models will simply not
   know that the tmStateReference cache exists.

   Further, even if the Transport Model can influence the choice of
   securityName, it cannot directly determine the authorization allowed
   to this identity.  If two different Transport Model each authenticate
   a transport principal, that are then both mapped to the same
   securityName, then these two identities will typically be afforded
   exactly the same authorization by the Access Control Model.

   The only way for the Access Control Model to differentiate between
   identities based on the underlying Transport Model, would be for
   such transport-authenticated identities to be mapped to distinct
   securityNames.  How and if this is done is Security-Model-dependent.
  </proposal>


Section 3.3, paragraph 3
  This text, discussing the session selection, covers very similar
material to paragraph 1 & 5 of section 3.3.1, and paragraph 2 of
section 3.3.3.  It might be sensible to merge these descriptions,
perhaps as a separate new subsection:

  <proposal>
     3.3.1.  Session Selection

     The architecture defined in [RFC3411] does not include a session
   selector in the Abstract Service Interfaces, and nor do the ASIs
   defined in this document for the Transport Subsystem.  Neither
   does the Transport Subsystem have access to the pduType, so cannot
   select a given session for particular types of traffic.  However
   certain parameters of these ASIs can be used to guide the selection
   of the appropriate session to use for a given request.

   The transportDomain and transportAddress identify the transport
   connection to a remote network node.  Elements of the transport
   address (such as the port number) can be used to select different
   sessions for particular request types.  For example, UDP ports
   161 and 162 have typically been used to separate SNMP notifications
   from other request/response traffic.

   The securityName identifies which security principal to communicate
   with at the remote network node (e.g., different NMS applications
   running on the same system).  The securityLevel could be used to
   select sessions with different sets of security properties for
   different purposes (e.g., encrypted SETs vs.  non-encrypted GETs).
   Note that this remains true even if all the sessions actually provide
   the same level of security protection.

   In summary, a unique combination of transportDomain, transportAddress,
   securityName, and securityLevel would serve to identify a given session.
   Different values for any of these parameters would imply the use of
   a different session.  An immediate consequence of this is that
   implementations SHOULD be able to maintain some reasonable number of
   concurrent sessions.

   Implementers, of course, might provide non-standard mechanisms to
   select sessions.
  </proposal>
   
Note(1):  The paragraph starting "To reduce redundancy..." would remain
  as part of section 3.3.

Note(2):  The securityName and securityLevel are not explicitly included
  in the sendMessage and receiveMessage ASIs.  These two values would
  therefore need to be included within the tmStateReference cache, in
  order to support session selection.  The current text describing
  tmStateReference does not make this explicit.
    This is addressed by the proposed standard text for tmStateReference,
  common to all three documents.


(current) Section 3.3.1
  This would need to be renumbered (along with the following subsections),
and the selection aspects removed:

  <proposal>
     3.3.2.  Session Establishment Requirements

     As indicated above, SNMP subsystems (including SNMP applications)
   can specify a particular transport session by passing a unique
   combination of transportDomain, transportAddress, securityName,
   and securityLevel.  If this combination does not match an existing
   transport session, this will request the Transport Subsystem to
   establish a new session.

   If the Transport Model cannot provide at least the requested level
   of security, the Transport Model SHOULD discard the message and
   notify the dispatcher that establishing a session and sending the
   message failed.  Similarly, if the session cannot be established,
   then the message should be discarded and the dispatcher notified.

   Transport session establishment might require provisioning
   authentication credentials at an engine, either statically or
   dynamically.  How this is done is dependent on the transport model
   and the implementation.
  </proposal>


(current) Section 3.3.3
   The order in which material is covered in the second half of the
first paragraph is somewhat random.  It would be clearer if each concept
was handled individually.  The second paragraph of Section 5.2 also
discusses cross-session security considerations, and would probably
fit better as part of this description.

  The second and third paragraphs are effectively covered in the (new)
subsection 3.3.1, and don't need to be repeated here.

  The justification of why multiple levels of security are available 
(in paragraphs 4&5) is not really relevant to a discussion of message
vs session security, and serves to obscure the main point being made.

  <proposal>
     ... SHOULD ensure that fresh new session keys are generated for
   each session.  This would ensure that a cross-session replay attack
   would be unsuccessful; that is, an attacker could not take a message
   observed on one session, and sucessfully replay this on another
   session.

   A good security protocol would also protect against replay attacks
   _within_ a session; that is, an attacker could not take a message
   observed on a session, and successfully replay this later in the
   same session.   One approach would be to use sequence information
   within the protocol, allowing the participants to detect if messages
   were replayed or reordered within a session.

   Note that if a secure transport session is closed between the time
   a request message is received, and the corresponding response message
   is sent, then the response message SHOULD be discarded, even if a
   new session has been established.  The SNMPv3 WG decided that this
   should be a SHOULD architecturally, and it is a security-model-specific
   decision whether to REQUIRE this.

   SNMPv3 was designed to support multiple levels of security,
   selectable on a per-message basis by an SNMP application.  Some
   Transport Models might support ...

      s/requested security level/
        security level requested by a transport-aware Security Model/
               (final sentence)
  </proposal>


Section 4, paragraph 2

  <proposal>
     s/ regardless of pduType,//     (first time only)
  </proposal>


Section 5
  This whole description should probably be replaced by the standard
text proposed for the Cached Information and References section.

The text starting "This document does not specify an implementation
strategy..."  (paragraph 4 of the current text), could probably be
appended to the third paragraph of the standard description.


Section 6
   This section feels as if it would benefit from a brief description
of how it relates to the ASIs defined in RFC3411.

  <proposal location=new_para_2>
     This document introduces a couple of new ASIs to define the interface
   between the Transport and Dispatcher Subsystems,  and extends some of
   the ASIs defined in RFC3411 to include transport-related information.
  </proposal>


Section 6, paragraph 4
   The description of what is included in an errorIndication is not
entirely consistent with the usage in other SNMPv3 documents.

  <proposal>
     An error indication in statusInformation will typically include the
   OID and value for an incremented error counter.  This may be accompanied
   by values for contextEngineID and contextName for this counter, a value
   for securityLevel, and the appropriate state reference if the information
   is available at the point where the error is detected.
  </proposal>

Note that which state reference is returned will depend on the ASI concerned.
securityStateReference is only relevant to the Security subsystem ASIs.


Section 6.2
   It would be useful to tweak the title of this subsection, to emphasise that
this involves changes to the ASIs as defined in RFC3411.  It would probably
also be useful to reflect the section structure of the RFC3411 descriptions
(to indicate which subsystems are affected), and to cover all of the amended ASIs:

  <proposal>
     6.2.   Changes to RFC3411 Outgoing ASIs

     Additional parameters have been added to the ASIs defined in RFC3411,
   concerned with communication between the Dispatcher and Message Processing
   subsystems, and between the Message Processing and Security Subsystems.

     6.2.1.  Message Processing Subsystem Primatives

     A tmStateReference parameter has been added as an OUT parameter to
   the prepareOutgoingMessage and prepareResponseMessage ASIs. This is
   passed from Message Processing Subsystem to the dispatcher, and from
   there to the Transport Subsystem.

   statusInformation =
   prepareOutgoingMessage(
       :
     OUT  tmStateReference        -- (NEW) reference to transport state
   )

   statusInformation =
   prepareResponseMessage(
       :
     OUT  tmStateReference        -- (NEW) reference to transport state
   )

    How or if the Message Processing Subsystem modifies or utilitizes
  the contents of this cache is message-processing-model specific.

     6.2.2.  Security Subsystem Primatives

     transportDomain and transportAddress parameters have been added as IN
   parameters to the generateOutgoingMessage and generateResponseMessage
   ASIs, and a tmStateReference parameter has been added as an OUT parameter.
   The transportDomain and transportAddress parameters will have been passed
   into the Message Processing Subsystem from the dispatcher, and are passed
   on to the Security Subsystem.   The tmStateReference parameter will be
   passed from the Security Subsystem back to the Message Processing
   Subsystem, and on to the dispatcher and Transport subsystems.

   statusInformation =
   generateOutgoingMessage(
       :
     IN   transportDomain         -- (NEW) transport Domain of request destination
     IN   transportAddress        -- (NEW) transport Address of request destination
       :
     OUT  tmStateReference        -- (NEW) reference to transport state
   )

   statusInformation =
   generateResponseMessage(
       :
     IN   transportDomain         -- (NEW) transport Domain of request destination
     IN   transportAddress        -- (NEW) transport Address of request destination
       :
     OUT  tmStateReference        -- (NEW) reference to transport state
   )

   If a cache exists for a session identifiable from the transportDomain,
   transportAddress, tmSecurityName and requested securityLevel, then a
   transport-aware Security Model might create a tmStateReference parameter
   to this cache, and pass that as an OUT parameter.
  </proposal>

Note that securityModel has been omitted from this final paragraph, in line
with the (common) description of the tmStateReference cache, and the elements
of procedure in other ISMS documents.


Section 6.3, paragraph 1

  <proposal>
     When a message is received on a given transport session, if a cache
   does not already exist for that session, the Transport Model might
   create one, referenced by tmStateReference.  The contents of this
   cache are discussed in section 5.2.  How this information is determined
   is implementation- and transport-model-specific.
  </proposal>


Section 6.4
   As with section 6.4, it would be useful to tweak the title of this
subsection, and to reflect the structure of RFC3411:

  <proposal>
     6.4.   Changes to RFC3411 Incoming ASIs

     The tmStateReference parameter has also been added to some of the
   incoming ASIs defined in RFC3411.  How or if a Message Processing Model
   or Security Model uses tmStateReference is message-processing- and
   security-model-specific.

     6.4.1.  Message Processing Subsystem Primative

     A tmStateReference parameter has been added as an IN parameter to
   the prepareDataElements ASI.  This is received from the Transport
   Model by the dispatcher, and passed to the Message Processing Subsystem.

   statusInformation =
   prepareDataElements(
       :
     IN  tmStateReference        -- (NEW) reference to transport state
       :
     OUT stateReference          -- reference to state information
   )

    How or if the Message Processing Subsystem modifies or utilitizes
  the contents of this cache is message-processing-model specific.

     6.4.2.  Security Subsystem Primative

     A tmStateReference parameter has been added as an IN parameter to
   the processIncomingMsg ASI, and is passed from the Message Processing
   Subsystem to the Security Subsytem.
   Model by the dispatcher, and passed to the Message Processing Subsystem.

   statusInformation =
   processIncomingMsg(
       :
     IN  tmStateReference         -- (NEW) reference to transport state
       :
     OUT securityStateReference   -- reference to security state information
   )

   If tmStateReference is present and valid, an appropriate Security
   Model might utilize the information in the cache.  How or if the
   Security Subsystem utilizes the information in the cache is security-
   model-specific.

   This may sound underspecified, ....
  </proposal>


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Subject: Re: [Isms] Comments on ISMS drafts - Security Model and SSH
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I've just realised that the comments on the ISMS drafts
which I sent a couple of days ago, were attached as
un-typed binary files, which probably wasn't very helpful!

I'm therefore trying again, with the comment files explicitly
marked as text.   This message includes my comments on
the Security  Model and SSH Transport drafts.   I've
already sent my comments on the tmStateReference cache
and the Transport subsystem separately.

Dave

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Transport Security Model
========================

Section 2
  The first half of paragraphs 2&3 refer to the handling of incoming
requests.  It would probably be useful to merge these two descriptions
into one.
  Similarly with paragraph 5 and the second half of paragraph 2.

  It's not immediately clear what the last couple of sentences of
paragraph 3 are trying to explain, and particularly how this might
relate to the topic of this section.

  Paragraph 4 assumes the creation of a new tmStateReference cache,
and should acknowledge the possibility of re-using an existing one.

  <proposal>
   For incoming requests, a secure Transport Model will create
   a tmStateReference cache (or use an existing one), including
   transportDomain, transportAddress, tmSecurityName and
   tmTransportSecurityLevel values, possibly together with other
   transport- specific information.  A non-secure Transport Model
   will typically not create or populate this cache.  The Transport
   Security Model will determine the security-model-independent
   securityName and securityLevel, and verify that the transport
   security provision is sufficient for the requested level of security.
   If the cache does not exist, is incompletely populated, or the
   tmTransportSecurityLevel provided is weaker than the requested
   securityLevel, the Transport Security Model will return an error
   (see section 5.2).

   For outgoing requests, the Transport Security Model will create
   a tmStateReference cache (or use an existing one), containing
   the transportDomain, transportAddress, tmSecurityName and
   tmRequestedSecurityLevel values, and passes the tmStateReference
   to the specified Transport Model.
  
   To maintain the RFC3411 modularity, the Transport Model does not
   know which Security Model will be used for an incoming message;
   this will be determined by the Message Processing Model.  Hence
   even if the Transport Model populates the tmStateReference cache,
   it is possible that the selected Security Model will ignore its
   contents.  For example, both the USM and community-based Security
   Models will derive the securityName from the SNMP message itself,
   rather than the tmSecurityName provided by a secure transport.
  </proposal>


Section 2.1.1.
   At first sight, there is an apparent inconsistency between the
first two paragraphs - first the TSM claims to provide protection,
and then it doesn't.  A closer reading explains the difference, but
a restructuring of the text might provide a clearer explanation:

  <proposal>
     The Transport Security Model is called a Security Model to be
   compatible with the RFC3411 architecture.  However it does not
   provide security mechanisms itself, so SHOULD always be used
   with a Transport Model that provides appropriate security.

   If used with a suitable Transport Model, then the Transport
   Security Model will provide protection against the threats
   identified by RFC3411.  However the responsibility for providing
   this protection is delegated to the secure Transport Model.  The
   Transport Security Model does not address any threats itself.

   If used with a non-secure Transport Model, then the Transport
   Security Model will *not* provide protection against such threats.
  </proposal>

Section 2.2

  <proposal>
     2.2.  Transport Sessions

   The Transport Security Model does not work with transport sessions
   directly.  Instead the transport-related state is associated with
   a unique combination of transportDomain, transportAddress, securityName
   and securityLevel, and referenced via the tmStateReference parameter.
   How and if this is mapped to a particular transport or channel is
   the responsibility of the Transport Subsystem.
  </proposal>


Section 2.3
  The contents of this section seem to describe not only the coexistence
of the Transport Security Model with other Security Models, but how the
Transport Security Model can coexist (and/or interface with) other
models within the RFC3411 architecture.  It might be useful to subdivide
this description into separate subsections for each of the RFC3411
Subsystems.


Section 2.3, paragraph 3
  Move this paragraph (and the two that follow) into a new subsection.

  <proposal>
     2.3.1.  Coexistence with Message Processing Models

   The SNMPv1 and SNMPv2c message processing described in [RFC3584]
   (BCP 74) always select the SNMPv1(1) and SNMPv2(2) Security Models
   respectively.  Since there is no mechanism defined in RFC3584 to
   select an alternative Security Model, SNMPv1 and SNMPv2c messages
   cannot use the Transport Security Model.  Such messages can still
   be conveyed over a secure transport protocol, but the transport
   security information will not be used as part of the SNMP-level
   authentication or authorization.

   The SNMPv2u/SNMPv2* Message Processing Model is a historical artifact
   for which there is no existing IETF specification.

   The SNMPv3 message processing defined in [RFC3412], extracts the
   securityModel from the msgSecurityModel field of an incoming
   SNMPv3Message.   When this value is transportSecurityModel(YY),
   security processing is directed to the Transport Security Model.
   For an outgoing message to be secured using the Transport
   Security Model, the application should specify a securityModel
   parameter value of transportSecurityModel in the sendPdu ASI.
  </proposal>


Section 2.3, paragraph 6
  Move this paragraph into a new subsection.

  <proposal>
     2.3.2.  Coexistence with other Security Models

     [[ text as currently ]]
  </proposal>


Section 2.3, paragraph 8
  Move this paragraph into a new subsection, and expand slightly

  <proposal>
     2.3.3.  Coexistence with Transport Models

     The whole purpose of the Transport Security Model is to work
   with appropriate secure Transport Models to use the transport-
   level security information for authenticating and authorizing
   an SNMP request.  An indication of which Transport Model was or
   should be used is included as part of the tmStateReference cache.

   The MIB module defined in this document allows an administrator
   to configure the Transport Security Model to disable support for
   specific transport models.
  </proposal>


Section 2.3, paragraph 7
  Move this paragraph into a new subsection, and expand to discuss
transport-visible securityNames.

  <proposal>
     2.3.4.  Coexistence with Access Control Models

     An SNMP engine will typically implement only one Access Control
   Model, and there is no mechanism defined in RFC3411 for selecting
   between alternative ACMs.  There are therefore no issues relating
   to the coexistence of the Transport Security Model with multiple
   Access Control Models.

   Conversely, the isAccessAllowed primitive includes a parameter to
   indicate the Security Model used to authenticate a request, so the
   Access Control Model should be able to handle multiple Security
   Models (including the Transport Security Model).

   However the isAccessAllowed does not provide any information about
   the Transport Model used or transport-level security parameters.
   As a result, it is not possible to have different access control
   rules for different Transport Models.  Or at least, not directly - the
   only way to influence access control based on transport considerations
   would be to use different securityName values for different transports.
  </proposal>


Section 2.4
  Referring to the MIB is unnecessary at this point.  It would be
clearer (and consistent with the Transport subsystem document) to
discuss processing is terms of the tmStateReference cache.
  Details of the precise processing required belong in the Elements
of Procedure.  It's probably not useful to go into quite so much
detail here.

  <proposal>
     For outgoing messages, the Transport Security Model uses parameters
   provided by the SNMP application to lookup or create an entry in the
   tmStateReference cache.  The wholeMsg and tmStateReference parameter
   are passed to the appropriate Transport Model as described in
   [ID.ietf-isms-tmsm].

   For incoming messages, a Transport Model accepts the message from
   the lower layer transport, and records the transport- and security-
   related information in the tmStateReference cache.  The wholeMsg
   and tmStateReference parameter are passed to the appropriate 
   Security Model as described in [ID.ietf-isms-tmsm].

   The contents of this cache are discussed in Section 3.2.
  </proposal>


Section 3
  This whole description should probably be replaced by the standard
text proposed for the Cached Information and References section.
Note that this effectively switches the order of subsections 3.1 and
3.2, to match the order used in the other ISMS documents.

Add the following to the end of section 3.1 (securityStateReference)

  <proposal>
     The tmStateReference parameter is used to ensure that the
   security parameters used for a response match those for the
   original request.  The Transport Security Model should add
   the tmStateReference received from the processIncomingMsg
   ASI to the securityStateReference.  This tmStateReference can
   then be retrieved during the generateResponseMsg ASI, so that
   it can be passed back to the Transport Model.
  </proposal>

This seems to be the intention of the second paragraph of the
(current) Section 3.2, although talking about the Transport Model
having access to the securityStateReference cache is confusing.


Section 4.2, step 1
   Whether the Security Model is processing a response message
(as opposed to a request) can be determined by which ASI is used,
rather than the presence or absence of a given parameters.

  <proposal>
     1) When generateResponseMsg is used to handle an SNMP response,
   the securityStateReference cache will contain information from
   the corresponding request, including securityName, securityLevel,
   and the tmStateReference.  The Transport Security Model should
   extract these values, and can then discard the cached security
   data and the securityStateReference.

   The tmRequestedSecurityLevel in the tmStateReference cache
   should be set to the value of the extracted securityLevel,
   and the tmSameSecurity parameter should be set to true.
  </proposal>

Qn:  How do the securityName and securityLevel IN parameters
     relate to the equivalent securityStateReference cache fields?
     Are these parameters used at all?
Qn:  Should the snmpTsmLCDTransformTable be referenced to check
     whether the specified transport is still enabled?
Qn:  Should the securityName (from the securityStateReference)
     be mapped back to a tmSecurityName, or will the existing
     tmSecurityName from the tmStateReference be used?


Section 4.2, steps 2&3
   These two steps both apply to the generateRequestMsg ASI.
It would probably be clearer to combine them into a single step.

  <proposal>
     2) When generateRequestMsg is called to handle an SNMP request,
   the parameters won't include a securityStateReference cache.
   Instead, the transport and security requirements will be supplied
   by the application via the IN parameters.

   Firstly, the requested transportDomain should be looked up in the
   snmpTsmLCDTransformTable.  If there is no entry for this domain,
   or the snmpTsmLCDPolicy value is set to disable(3), then ...
   ... processing stops for this message.

[[ If the value of snmpTsmLCDTransformPolicy is private(1), then ]]
   the values supplied for transportDomain, transportAddress,
   securityName and securityLevel are used to lookup or create an
   entry in the snmpTsmLCDTable, and the snmpTsmLCDTmSecurityName
   column value used for tmSecurityName.  [[ Otherwise, tmSecurityName
   should be set to be the same as the supplied securityName.  ]]

   Create a tmStateReference cache with tmSecurityName set to
   the value determined above, tmRequestedSecurityLevel to the
   supplied securityLevel value, and tmSameSecurity to false.
  </proposal>

Qn: How should the securityName -> tmSecurityName mapping be done
    if there is an inconsistency between snmpTsmLCDTransformPolicy
    and snmpTsmLCDTmSecurityName?   (i.e. a policy of 'default'
    and a value of tmSecurityName that doesn't match securityName)

    The full description above (including [[text]]) only references
    the snmpTsmLCDTable for non-default securityName mapping, and
    applies the identity mapping automatically (without requiring
    a snmpTsmLCDTable row at all).  The previous text would apply
    a configured non-identity mapping even with the default policy
    for that transport domain.

    If this is the intended behaviour, it would be sensible to
    state this explicitly.

  
Section 5.2
  It would seem more natural to perform all of the validation steps
first, before starting to populate the OUT parameter values.

  The specified procedure for determining the securityName (using
a non-identity mapping) is wrong, since it actually sets the MIB
table tmSecurityName column.  This value is already provided in the
tmStateReference cache.  The following text proposes an alternative
approach, that does map tmSecurityName to securityName.
  Note that as with the proposal for 4.2 above, this mapping only
references the snmpTsmLCDTable for the non-default transform policy.

  <proposal>
   1) If tmStateReference does not refer to a valid cache, containing
      values for transportDomain, transportAddress, tmSecurityName
      and tmTransportSecurityLevel, then the snmpTsmInvalidCache ...

   2) If there is no entry in snmpTsmLCDTransformTable corresponding
      to the specified transportDomain, or the corresponding value ...

      s/together with the OID and value of the incremented counter//
      s/Transport Security Model/Security Model/

   3) Compare the level of security provided by the transport
      (tmTransportSecurityLevel in the tmStateReference) with
      that required by the SNMP message (the securityLevel
      parameter passed in the processIncomingMsg ASI).  If the
      transort security is weaker than that required, then the
      snmpTsmInadequateSecurityLevels counter is incremented,
      an error indication is returned to the calling module,
      and Security Model processing stops for this message.

   4) Set securityEngineID to the local snmpEngineID.

   5) If the snmpTsmLCDTransformPolicy value for the specified
      transportDomain is default(1), then set securityName to the
      value of tmSecurityName from the tmStateReference cache.

      If the snmpTsmLCDTransformPolicy value is private, then
      search the snmpTsmLCDTable for an entry with the specified
      transportDomain, transportAddress and securityLevel
      [[ XXX - or tmTransportSecurityLevel ?? ]] indexes, and
      a snmpTsmLCDTmSecurityName value that matches the value
      of tmSecurityName from the tmStateReference cache.
      If such a row is present, then set securityName to the
      corresponding snmpTsmLCDSecurityName index value.

      If no such row exists, calculate securityName from the
      specified tmSecurityName using the appropriate private 
      algorithm.  Create a row in the snmpTsmLCDTable indexed
      by the specified transportDomain, transportAddress,
      securityLevel [[ XXX - or tmTransportSecurityLevel ]]
      values and this calculated securityName.  Set the
      snmpTsmLCDTmSecurityName column to the tmSecurityName
      from the tmStateReference cache.

   6) Extract the scopedPDU from the wholeMsg.

   7) Calculate the maxSizeResponseScopedPDU.  [[ HOW ?? ]]
      This is the maximum size allowed for a scopedPDU for
      a possible Response message.
 
   8) Create a cache containing the security data for this
      message, referenced by securityStateReference, so that
      a possible response can use the same security parameters.
      For the Transport Security Model, this security cache
      should include the tmStateReference.

   9) Return a success indication to the calling module,
      passing the OUT parameters determined above.
  </proposal>

Qn: Should the tmSecurityName -> securityName mapping lookup
    be done using the securityLevel from the SNMP request
    (analogous with the outgoing case), or with the level
    provided by the transport layer (potentially flattening
    multiple parallel sessions into one)?


Section 6
  The summary of the MIB contents is slightly inaccurate.

  <proposal>
     This MIB module provides management of the Transport Security Model.
   It contains three statistics objects, and two tables for managing
   the behaviour of the Transport Security Model.
  </proposal>


Section 6.3
  A little more detail about the contents of the snmpTcmLCD subtree
would probably be useful.

  <proposal>
     6.3.1 snmpTsmLCDTransformTable

   This table lists the [[ secure? ]] transports implemented by the
   SNMP entity, and indicates the securityName mapping policy used
   for traffic via each transport.  This table should be populated
   automatically by the SNMP engine, with one row for each supported
   transport.

     6.3.1 snmpTsmLCDTable

   This table provides details of the precise mapping between SNMP
   securityNames and transport-specific tmSecurityNames, for both
   existing and pre-configured user names.
  </proposal>

Qn:  Is it necessary for the snmpTsmLCDTable to contain entries for
     fixed (identity (?)and prefix) mappings?
Qn:  Should the transform table list non-secure transports
     (e.g. traditional SNMP-over-UDP, SNMP-over-TCP, etc)?


Section 6.4
  The other relevant MIB to mention here would be the that belonging
  to the appropriate Access Control Model (typically the VACM MIB).

  <proposal>
     a/ and the the appropriate Access Control Model MIB
        (for example, the SNMP-VIEW-BASED-ACM-MIB [RFC3415])/
  </proposal>
  

Section 6.4.1
  The Elements of Procedure don't actually make any mention of the
snmpInASNParseErrs.

  <proposal>
     s/'system' group/'snmp' group/g
     s/duplicate these objects/duplicate this object/
     Delete sentences 3&4 (or possibly this whole section?).
  </proposal>


Section 6.4.2

  <proposal>
     s/definitions for the concepts of snmpEngineID,//
     s/object definitions/an object definition/
  </proposal>

The securityLevel enumeration values will be used to implement
the SNMP-TSM MIB.


(new) Section 6.4.3

  <proposal>
     The Transport Security Model also maps between transport-
   provided identities and the SNMP securityName for use in
   the Access Control processing.  It is therefore expected
   that an entity implementing the Transport Security Model
   will also implement the appropriate ACM MIB (such as the
   SNMP-VIEW-BASED-ACM-MIB [RFC3415]).
  </proposal>


Section 7, snmpTsmInadequateSecurityLevels

  <proposal>
     s/by the application/by the application or SNMP PDU/
  </proposal>


Section 7, snmpTsmLCDDomainTable
  The name of the table doesn't match that used in the
definition of the snmpTsmLCDTransformEntry object.

  <proposal>
     s/snmpTsmLCDDomainTable/snmpTsmLCDTransferTable/
  </proposal>


Section 7, snmpTsmLCDTransformPolicy
Qn: Should this object include a separate enumeration
    for the prefix mapping?


Section 7, snmpTsmLCDTable
  The index objects are defined as "not-accessible",
so should not be included in the example SET command.

The distinction between internal operation and externally
configured rows could be slightly clearer.

  <proposal>
     s/may be instantiated/can be instantiated automatically/
     s/, and they can be/.  They may be explicitly/

     s/snmpTsmLCDTransportDomain=(desired value),//
     s/snmpTsmLCDTransportAddress=(desired value),//
     s/snmpTsmLCDSecurityName=(desired value),//
     s/snmpTsmLCDSecurityLevel=(desired value),//
  </proposal>

Qn: Should this table list all known (existing and/or
    pre-configured) users, or just the non-default mappings?


Section 7, snmpTsmLCDTransportDomain
  <proposal>
     s/transport type/transport domain/
     a/This indicates the Transport Model that will be used./
  </proposal>


Section 7, sshTsmLCDTmSecurityName

  </proposal>
      A human readable string representing the transport-
    authenticated identity to both the Transport and
    Security Models. It is passed between them in
    tmSecurityName.

    This may or may not be the same as sshTsmLCDSecurityName.
  <proposal>

Qn: Can this value be changed once a transport connection
    has been established?  If so, what are the security
    implications of doing this?
Qn: Can this value be set/changed to indicate a non-identity
    mapping, if the transform policy is set to default?


Section 8
  There is a certain amount of repetition in this description,
particularly between the first two paragraphs.

  <proposal>
     This document describes a Security Model, compatible with
   the RFC3411 architecture, that permits SNMP to utilise
   security services provided through an SNMP Transport Model.
   The Transport Security Model provides no security itself,
   but relies on a secure Transport Model to provide an
   authenticated principal for use in Access Control decisions,
   and an assertion of transport securityLevel to ensure
   confidentiality and integrity.

   It SHOULD always be used with a Transport Model that provides
   security, but this is a run-time decision of the operator or
   management application, or a configuration decision of the
   operator.

   The security threats and how these threats are mitigated
   should be covered in detail in the specifications of the
   Transport Model and the underlying secure transport.
  </proposal>


Section 9, DISCUSS
  The choice of default ports is surely an issue for the Transport
subsystem (i.e. individual Transport Model definition documents),
rather than the Transport Security System.

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Secure Shell Transport
======================

Section 1.4
  Much of the motivation description (paragraphs 1,2,5 & 6) feels
too detailed for this particular document.  Most of the justification
is fairly generic, and would apply to the use of any secure transport.
As such, this detailed description really belongs in the Transport
subsystem document, rather than here.
  A much simpler description would be sufficient, with a reference to
the fuller description in the Transport subsystem document.

  <proposal>
     Widespread use of version 3 of the Simple Network Management
   Protocol (SNMPv3) with the User-based Security Model (USM) has
   been hampered by the need to deploy a separate user and key
   management infrastructure.  Operators have reported a desire to
   unity the administrative security used for SNMP, with that used
   for Command Line Interfaces (CLI) and other management interfaces.
   [I-D.ietf-isms-tmsm] defines a Transport subsystem, designed to
   allow SNMP to take account of transport-layer security information.

   CLIs commonly use the security services provided by the Secure
   Shell, and this is also the approach being adopted for use with
   NETCONF [RFC4742].  This memo describes a method for invoking
   and running the SNP protocol within a Secure Shell (SSH) session.
   This provides for mutual authentication between client and server,
   data validation and confidentiality, and allows SNMP to make use
   of the SSH-authenticated identity in authorization policies for
   MIB data access.

   There are a number of challenges to be addressed .. detail below.
  </proposal>


Section 2, paragraph 2
  The description of SSH post-connection processing (following the
list of SSH components) is somewhat vague.  A less general summary,
more closely aligned to typical usage, might be more helpful.

  <proposal>
     Once a secure transport layer connection has been established,
   [and the server identity verified?], the client sends a service
   request to initiate client-side user authentication.  This is
   then typically followed by a second service request to establish
   an SSH Session.
  </proposal>


Section 3

  <proposal>
     s/Fits into the Transport Subsystem/
       Fits into the SNMP Architecture/
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.1
  The threats are discussed in a different order to the list in
the Transport subsystem document (which matches that in RFC3411).
For consistency, it would probably be useful to always cover
these threats in the same order.

  The descriptions for the main four threats feel somewhat short and
unconvincing.  There is typically a statement that the SSH Transport
Model addresses this threat, with no justification or explanation of
how this is achieved.

  The other three numbered points (4, 5 & 7) seem to be particular
cases of the four main threats, and would be better presented as
such.  This would also address the lack of justification above.

  <proposal>
   1.  Modification of Information - SSH provides for verification
       that the contents of each message has not been modified
       during its transmission through the network, by digitally
       signing each SSH packet.

   2.  Masquerade - SSH provides for verification of the identity
       of the SSH server through the SSH Transport Protocol
       server authentication ([RFC4253]).   This allows an operator
       or management station to ensure the authenticity of the
       SNMP engine that provides MIB data.

       SSH also provides a number of mechanisms for verification
       of the identify of the SSH client-side principal, using
       the Secure Shell Authentication Protocol ([RFC4252]).
       These include public key, password and host-based mechanism.
       This allows the SNMP access control subsystem to ensure
       that only authorized principals have access to potentially
       sensitive data.

   3.  Message Stream Modification - SSH protects against malicious
       re-ordering or replaying of messages within a single SSH
       session by using sequence numbers and integrity checks.
       SSH protects against replay of messages across SSH sessions
       by ensuring that the cryptographic keys used for encryption
       and integrity checks are generated afresh for each session.
        
   4.  Disclosure - SSH protects against the disclosure of
       information to unauthorized recipients or eavesdroppers
       by encrypting all traffic between SNMP engines.
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.2, paragraphs 2/3
  The distinction between the topics of the second and third
paragraphs is not at all clear, even after multiple readings.

The absolute prohibition on anything other than authPriv in paragraph
3 conflicts with the (weaker) recommendations elsewhere in the
document (section 1.4, the first paragraph of this section, section 9).

  <proposal>
     paragraph 2
   s/type and address/address/
   s/the SSH Transport Model provides/provides/
    
     (new paragraph)
   The transport layer algorithms used to provide authentication, data
   integrity and encryption SHOULD NOT be exposed to the SSH Transport
   Model layer.  The Transport Model must simply trust that the
   underlying SSH connection has been properly configured to support
   authPriv security characteristics.  Outgoing messages specified
   with a securityLevel of noAuthNoPriv or authNoPriv, are actually
   sent by the SSH Transport Model with authPriv-level protection.
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.3, paragraph 2
  The description of integration with other authentication mechanisms
feels too detailed.  A simpler description would probably be better:

  <proposal>
   The password authentication mechanism allows for integration with
   deployed password-based infrastructure, such as RADIUS [RFC2865]
   or Diameter [RFC3588], either directly or using password validation
   protocols such as CHAP [RFC1994] or digest authentication [RFC5090].
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.5
  This material is effectively covered by the description of threats
in section 3.1.1.  It's probably not necessary to cover it again here.

  <proposal>
     Drop this section altogether (and renumber the following section).
  </proposal>


Section 3.1.6, paragraph 4

  <proposal>
     s/transportAddressType/transportDomain/
  </proposal>


Section 3.3, paragraph 2
  This section is entitled "Notifications and Proxy", but the text
concentrates on discussing notification handling.

  <proposal>
     s/notifications/notifications or proxy requests/
  </proposal>


Section 4
  The introduction to this section should probably be replaced by
the standard text proposed for the Cached Information and References
section (X, X.1 and X.2), with a couple of minor tweaks:

(common) Section X.2
  paragraph 3: 
  <proposal>
     s/Transport Models/the SSH Transport Model/
  </proposal>

  append after the summary of tmStateReference cache fields:
  <proposal>
     See the Elements of Procedures for detailed processing
   instructions on the use of these fields by the SSH Transport Model.
  </proposal>


The remainder of this standard text can be significantly simplified to
concentrate on the particular requirements of the SSH Transport Model.

  <proposal>
     4.2.1.  Transport information

   The tmStateReference cache for a given SSH connection should
   include information about the source of incoming SNMP messsages,
   so that this is accessible to transport-aware Security Models

     - transportDomain
         snmpSSHDomain (defined in the SSHTM-MIB, see section 7)

     - transportAddress
         the remote end of the SSH connection, represented as an
         snmpSSHAddress (defined in the SSHTM-MIB, see section 7)

     4.2.2.  securityName

     How the SSH transport principal is extracted from the SSH
     layer is implementation-dependent.  By default, this will
     typically be taken from the value of the user name field
     of the SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST message for which a
     SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_SUCCESS has been received.   The SSH protocol
     is not always clear on whether this user name field must be
     filled in, so for some implementations, it may be neccessary
     to retrieve the transport principal in some other way.

     How the SSH transport principal is mapped to/from a tmSecurityName
     should be administratively configurable, including whether this is
     a straight identity mapping, or some alternative transformation.
     The SSHTM-MIB (see section 7) includes a sshtLCDTransformPolicy
     object and sshtmLCDTable, which are used during the Elements of
     Procedure to determine this mapping.

     Transport Model transforms SHOULD generate predictable
     tmSecurityNames to represent transport principals.
  
     4.2.3.  securityLevel

     SSH transport connections are both verified and encrypted,
     so inherently offer the strongest securityLevel protection.

     - tmTransportSecurityLevel
         authPriv

     - tmRequestedSecurityLevel
         this value will be ignored for outgoing messages
         (since all SSH connections automatically provide
          an adequate level of security)

     4.2.4.  Session information

     The tmStateReference cache for an SSH connection SHOULD include
     a tmSessionID to indicate which SSH session it refers to.

     If the Transport Model receives an outgoing message with the
     tmSameSecurity parameter set, but the session identified in
     the tmStateReference does not match the current established
     SSH session for the specified transportDomain, transportAddress,
     tmSecurityName and tmRequestedSecurityLevel, then the message
     MUST be discarded, and the dispatcher notified that the sending
     of the message failed.
  </proposal>


Section 5
  The ASIs relevant to the SSH Transport Model are the two defined in
the Transport susbsystem document (receiveMessage and sendMessage),
rather than those from RFC3411.

The release of state information is included as part of the common
description of Cached Information and References, and can therefore
safely be omitted here.

The description of error handling (which only applies to sendMessage)
could usefully be simplified to concentrate on the primary error
indication (the error counter OID and value)

  <proposal>
     Abstract service interfaces for the Transport subsystem have been
   defined by [ID.ietf-isms-tmsm].  The SSH Transport Model uses these
   conceptual data flows when communicating with the Dispatcher.

   An error indication in statusInformation will typically
   include the OID and value for an incremented error counter.
   This may be accompanied by the requested securityLevel, and
   the tmStateReference.  Per-message context information is not
   accessible to Transport Models, so contextEngine would be set
   to the local value of snmpEngineID, and contextName to the
   default context for error counters.
  </proposal>

It is unclear whether it's useful to discuss context here at all.


Section 5.1
  Most of this description is concerned with what should be done
when accepting a new incoming SSH connection.  Once such a connection
has been established, it's probably not necessary to repeat all this
processing for every subsequent message received on the same connection.
  It would be useful to separate the description of the processing
required for accepting an incoming connection, from that for handling
an incoming message.

  <proposal>
     5.1.   Procedure for accepting an incoming SSH session

   The SSH Transport Model provides the following abstract service
   interface (ASI) to describe the data passed between the SSH
   service and the SSH Transport Model.  It is an implementation
   decision how such data is passed.

     acceptSession(
       IN  sourceTransportAddress
       IN  sshPrincipal
       IN  sshSessionID
       OUT tmStateReference
     )

   The following describes the procedure to follow when establishing
   an incoming session to run SNMP over SSH.  This will be done
   automatically for an SNMP application that receives an unsolicited
   transaction, such as a Command Responder, or a Notification Receiver.

   1) Query the SSH engine, in an implementation-dependent manner,
      to determine the transportAddress that initiated the connection,
      the principal name authenticated by SSH and a session identifier.

      By default, the principal name will be the value of the
      user name field of the SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST, for which
      a SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_SUCCESS was sent.  How this name is
      extracted from the SSH environment is implementation-dependent.

   2) Determine the tmSecurityName corresponding to the sshPrincipal
      parameter.  If the SSH Transport Model is using the identity
      mapping (as indicated by the sshtmLCDTransformPolicy object),
      this will be the same as the sshPrincipal parameter.  Otherwise,
      the tmSecurityName should be determined by an implementation-
      specific mapping algorithm.

         [[[ XXX - How - via a reverse-lookup in ssmtmLCDTable? ]]]

   3) Create a tmStateReference cache containing the following values:

         transportDomain   = snmpSSHDomain  (defined in SSH-TM, see section 7)
         transportAddress  = sourceTransportAddress parameter
         tmSecurityName    = the value determined in step 2) above
         tmTransportSecurityLevel = authPriv
         tmSessionID       = sshSessionID parameter

   4) Create an entry in the sshtmLCDTable containing the values:

         sshtmTransportAddress  = sourceTransportAddress parameter
         sshtmLCDTmSecurityName = tmSecurityName (from step 2) above)
         sshtmLCDPrincipal      = sshPrincipal parameter
         sshtmLCDSessionID      = sshSessionID parameter
         sshtmStorageType       = volatile(2)
         sshtmRowStatus         = createAndGo(4)

    Return the tmStateReference cache for this session.

     5.2.   Procedure for an incoming message

    Retrieve the tmStateReference for the SSH session used to receive
    the incoming message.    Pass the message to the Dispatcher using
    the following ASI:

      statusInformation =
      receiveMessage(
         IN    transportDomain     -- snmpSSHDomain
         IN    transportAddress    -- from tmStateReference cache
         IN    wholeMessage
         IN    wholeMessageLength
         IN    tmStateReference
      )
  </proposal>

Qn: Could a row exist in the sshtmLCDTable before the corresponding SSH
    session was established (e.g. to pre-configure a suitable mapping
    between SSH principal and tmSecurityName).
      Or would creating such a row automatically establish the connection?

    In either case, presumably establishing the session should set the
    value for tmSessionID (and perhaps make the row active)

Qn: Would it be sensible to have a separate sshtmSessionAccepts counter?
    Or should incoming sessions be included in sshtmSessionOpens?


Section 5.3
  The description is somewhat confusing in places, and would benefit
from a slight simplification and clarification.  Some of the processing
specified is actually related to sending an outgoing message, rather
than opening a new SSH session.
  The maxMessageSize IN parameter is never actually used.
  There is no mechanism for returning the SSH session
  
  <proposal>
     paragraph 1
   s/application service interface/abstract service interface/

     ASI definition
   d/IN  maxMessageSize/
   a/OUT sshSession/

     step 1)
   s/using the SSH transport protocol//
   s/used to authenticate/used to authenticate the server/
   s/and an OpenSession error indication/an error indication/

 
   2) If sshtmLCDTransformPolicy is default, the SSH principal is set
      to tmSecurityName.  Otherwise, the SSH principal is calculated
      from tmSecurityName using the implementation-specific mapping
      algorithm.

      This principal is passed to the SSH layer for authentication.
      The credentials and authentication service to use are determined
      in an implementation-dependent manner.

      If authentication is unsuccessful, then the transport connection
      is closed, the sshtmSesssionUserAuthFailures counter is
      incremented, an error indication is returned to the calling
      module, and OpenSession processing stops.

   3) Once the principal has been successfully authenticated, the
      client should invoke the "ssh-connection" service, request a
      channel of type "session", [and set up an "snmp" subsystem].
      If unsuccessful, then the transport connection is closed, the
      sshtmSesssionChannelOpenFailures counter is incremented, an
      error indication is returned to the calling module, and
      OpenSession processing stops.

   4) If successful, this will result in an SSH session.  Create an
      entry in the sshtmLCDTable, indexed by destTransportAddress
      and tmSecurityName, containing

         sshtmLCDPrincipal = the SSH principal determined in step 2)
         sshtmLCDSessionID = the ID of the session just established

      The sshtmSessionOpens counter should be incremented, and the
      SSH session returned to the calling module.
  </proposal>

Qn: The discussion of SSH subsystems is somewhat unclear, but feels 
    more like implementation/configuration recommendations rather
    than Elements of Procedure.  It might perhaps be better included
    elsewhere in the document.  Where?

Qn: Should a failure to set up an "snmp" subsystem trigger a
    SessionChannelOpenFailure error?

Qn: This text also refers to an IANA-assigned TCP port, but this is
    never discussed anywhere in this document.


Section 5.2
  It might be more sensible to discuss the processing of outgoing
messages *after* the procedures for opening a session (following
the model of accepting a session/receiving a message above).

There is no provision in the sshtmLCDTable for implementation-specific
parameters - using the MIB table for this seems inappropriate.

  <proposal>
     5.4.  Procedure for sending an Outgoing Message

   1) Use the transportAddress and tmSecurityName from the
      tmStateReference to determine if a corresponding row
      exists in the sshtmLCDTable.
       
   2) If there is such a row, extract tmSameSession and tmSessionID
      from the tmStateReference cache.  If tmSameSession is true,
      and tmSessionID does not match sshtmLCDSessionID, ....

   3) If there is no such row, then call OpenSession with
      transportAdddress and tmSecurityName as parameters.
      If OpenSession fails, then discard the message, release
      tmStateReference and pass the error indication returned
      by OpenSession back to the calling module.
      Processing stops for this message.

   4) Pass the outgoingMessage to SSH for encapsulation as
      data in an SSH message over the specified SSH session
      (returned from OpenSession or identified by tmSessionID).
      Any necessary additional SSH-specific parameters should
      be provided in an implementation-dependent manner.
  </proposal>

Qn: This description uses transportAddress from the tmStateReference
    cache, rather than the IN parameter (destTransportAddress).
    Is this IN parameter ever used, or simply ignored?

Qn: How should this ASI handle an incomplete/invalid tmStateReference
    cache?  Or is such an occurrance Simply Not Possible?


Section 5.4
Qn: Is 'closeSession' invoked (conceptually) for remote-initiated
    session termination as well?


Section 6

  <proposal>
     This MIB module provides management of the Secure Shell Transport
   Model.  It defines an OID to identify the SNMP-over-SSH transport
   domain, a textual convention for SSH Addresses, several statistics
   counters and a MIB table representing the SSH Transport Model Local
   Configuration Datastore (LCD).
  </proposal>


Section 6.3
  The Transport susbsystem document does not define a MIB module.

The second paragraph talks about what this MIB provides (rather than
its relationship with other MIB modules).  This has already been
covered at the start of this main section.

It might also be worth mentioning the Transport Security Model.

  <proposal>
     s/and the SNMP-TRANSPORT-MIB [I-D.ietf-isms-tmsm]//

     It is expected that an entity implementing this MIB will
   also support the Transport Security Model [I-D.ietf-isms-tsm],
   and therefore implement the SNMP-TSM-MIB.
  </proposal>


Section 7, SnmpSSHAddress definition

  <proposal>
    paragraph 3
      s/a dotted decimal/in dotted decimal/
    paragraph 4
      s/surrounded by brackets/surrounded by square brackets/
    paragraph 5
      s/may not be useable/may not necessarily be useable/
         (warning, rather than prohibition)
    Reference
      s/RFC3896/RFC3986/
  </proposal>

Qn:  The purpose of paragraph 7 is not particularly clear.
     If the TC should not be used, then what is the point
     of providing this definition?

Qn:  This type is described purely in terms of IP addresses
     (or hostnames).  Is it intended to support SSH-over-nonIP
     transports as well?
     If not, should the snmpSSHDomain description (?and name)
     be  tweaked to make this restriction explicit?


Section 7, sshtmLCDSpinLock
  The comment immediately before the ssmtmLCDSpinLock definition
feels like a cut-and-paste error from the SNMP-TSM-MIB.

  </proposal>
      Delete these two lines
  <proposal>


Section 7, sshtmLCDTable definition
  The index values (TransportAddress and TmSecurityName) are defined
as "not-accessible", so should not be included in the example SET.

Qn:  What is the intended behaviour of creating an entry in this table?
     Should that attempt to open a corresponding SSH session
     automatically, or would SNMP-created rows be used to pre-configure
     a non-identity mapping between SSH principal and tmSecurityName?

It's not clear how an external SNMP command could possibly know the
appropriate SSH session ID to specify for a future SSH session (and
the spinLock value is almost guaranteed to be wrong!).
  It would be more appropriate to omit this varbind, and leave the
SSH transport model to supply the appropriate value.

  <proposal>
     s/sshtmLCDTransportAddress=(desired value),//
     s/sshtmLCDTmSecurityName=(desired value),//
     s/sshtmLCDSessionID=sValue,//
  </proposal>


Section 7, sshtmLCDTmSecurityName

  </proposal>
    A human readable string representing the transport-authenticated
    identity to both the Transport and Security Models. It is passed
    between them as tmSecurityName.

    This may or may not be the same as sshtmLCDPrincipal.
  <proposal>

Qn: How would the definition of this object be affected by the proposed
    use of transport-prefixes in the Transport Security Model
    tmSecurityName <-> securityName mapping?

    Should the size of this object be reduced, or should the prefix be
    added by the Transport Model itself?


Section 7, sshtmLCDPrincipal

  </proposal>
    A human readable string representing the transport-authenticated
    identity in an implementation-specific manner.  It is only used
    within the SSH Transport Model itself, and is typically the SSH
    user name.

    This may or may not be the same as sshtmLCDTmSecurityName.
  <proposal>


Section 7, sshtmLCDSessionID
  The definition for this object is missing altogether!  I suspect
that this column should probably be defined as 'read-only' (and
documented as being provided by the SSH engine).


Section 7, sshtmLCDRowStatus
Qn: Does the value of this object ('active' vs 'notInService')
    indicate whether there is a corresponding established SSH session?
    If so, then it would be sensible to document this.

Qn: The description states that the principal value can only be changed
    when the row is 'active'.  Is it realistic to try and change the
    transport-authenticated identity once the session has been established?

It would seem more natural either to only allow changing the principal for
inactive rows (i.e. when preparing the configuration settings for future
connections), or to forbid amending existing rows (apart from deleting
the row altogether).

Qn: Should deleting a row from this table, automatically close the
    corresponding SSH session?
    If so, then it would be sensible to document this.


Section 7, sshtmGroup
  It would probably be more flexible to define this as two separate groups.
One containing the statistics objects, and one containing the LCD table
and related scalars.  Even if both groups are defined as mandatory, this
separation would allow more focused descriptions.


Section 8, paragraph 2
  This document does not seem to define any well-known ports
for use by SNMP-over-SSH.

  <proposal>
   paragraph 1
     s/instead of/to supplement/
   Delete paragraph 2
  </proposal>


Section 8, paragraph 2
  This description includes an unnecessary level of detail, which
serves to obscure the main point.

  <proposal>
   The SSH protocol has its own window mechanism, defined in RFC
   4254. The SSH specifications leave it open when window adjustments
   messages should be created, and some implementations send these
   whenever received data has been passed to the application.  There
   are noticeable bandwidth and processing overheads to handling such
   window adjustment messages, which can be avoided by sending them
   less frequently.
  </proposal>


Section 9
  The various subsections seem to appear in a somewhat random order.
It would probably be clearer to discuss the three SSH-level security
considerations, before moving on to SNMP/MIB-related issues.

The titles of these subsection describe SSH protocol-level details,
which are possibly not familiar to non-SSH-experts.  More general
titles (describing "what" rather than "how") would be helpful.
(see proposals below)


Section 9.1
  The first two paragraphs (justifying the use of userauth "none")
seem to be inconsistent with the third (recommending against this).
A simpler description would perhaps be less confusing.

  <proposal confidence=0>
     9.1.  Skipping client authentication

   SSH includes the "none" userauth method, which could in principle
   be used to support access by anonymous clients.  This would not
   compromise the authentication of the server to the clients, nor
   data confidentiality or data integrity.

   However such a configuration effectively provides a securityLevel
   of "noAuthPriv", which is not permitted by RFC 3411.  The SSH
   Transport Model SHOULD NOT be used with an SSH connection using
   the "none" userauth method.
  </proposal>

Qn: Why is this SHOULD NOT rather than MUST NOT ?

This text may well be an over-simplification, in which case it would be
useful to give a clearer description of when/how anonymous access can
provide an authenticated principal.


Section 9.2
  The issues discussed here are not specific to community-based versions
of SNMP.  The same considerations would apply to SNMPv3 with USM, or any
other non-transport-aware Security Model.

  <proposal>
     9.4  Use with non-transport-aware Security Models.

   The SNMPv1 and SNMPv2c message processing described in [RFC3584]
   always select the SNMPv1 or SNMPv2c Security Models respectively.
   Both of these, and the User-based Security Model typically used with
   SNMPv3, derive the securityName and securityLevel from the SNMP
   message received, even when the message was received over a secure
   transport.  Access control decisions are therefore made based on the
   contents of the SNMP message, rather than using the authenticated
   identity and securityLevel provided by the SSH Transport Model.
  </proposal>


Section 9.3

  <proposal>
     9.2.  Skipping server authentication

   s/if this step is skipped/
     if this step is skipped (e.g. by blindly
           accepting the offered public key)/

   Start new paragraph before "Data confidentiality"
  </proposal>


Section 9.4

  <proposal>
     9.3.  Skipping data integrity validation

   SSH provides the "none" MAC algorithm, which disables the validation
   of data integrity, while maintaining data confidentiality.  However
   if this is done, then an attacker might be able to modify the data
   in flight, thus compromising both data integrity and authentication.

   SSH MUST NOT ...
  </proposal>

Qn: Wouldn't this also compromise the confidentiality of returned data?


Section 9.5
  The MIB module _does_ contain writeable objects (paragraph 1), which
affect the mapping between SSH principal and tmSecurityName (and hence
the SNMP securityName).  These could be used to subvert SNMP-level access
control restrictions.

  The values of SSH principals and tmSecurityName could themselves be
sensitive (pararaph 2), as might the addresses of communicating SNMP engines.


Section 10, item 1
  IANA is requested to assign a default port for SNMP-over-SSH.  But
nowhere in this document is there a placeholder location for this port
number to be specified.

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Subject: [Isms] Security/Protocol Naming agreement: take II
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At the last IETF and over the mailing list we discussed having
securityNames handed up by TMs to be prefixed with a PROTO: name type
tag, where PROTO: would be ssh: dtls: etc.  I won't rehash why this was
desired as that's in the list archives (and minutes).  But I'm going to
revamp my write up of what I thought was close to consensus (which I'll
leave to the chairs to decide if it's been reached).

I know David understandable wanted as concrete proposals as possible and
this text is an update only to serve that purpose.  David, of course,
you're free to change the text at will as you think is necessary.  I'm
just trying to be helpful and provide as much starting ground for you as
possible :-)

  - Adds an IANA considerations sections

     (which IANA assignment method is used is probably subject to
     debate.  I'd argue flexibility should be a good thing, but
     willy-nilly is probably overkill.  And thus "Specification
     Required" is specified below, but "Expert Review" would probably
     bee an adequate choice as well)

  - Adds in a few more references to the 
  - Clarifies where I think the text needs to be added in the documents.
  - Clarified what steps need modification to deal with the prefix

Proposed wording/changes:

== In the TMSM document: ===================================================

   In section 3.2.2.1 at the end of the second paragraph add
   (or add as a new 3rd paragraph on its own):

     "Documents defining a new TM specification MUST define a security
     name prefix that will be pre-pended to all passed securityNames.
     Implementations MUST pre-pend this prefix to the security-model
     independent securityName used for subsequent processing.  This
     prefix MUST be defined from 1-4 securityName compatible octets
     followed by a ':' (ASCII 0x3a) character.  Prefix names are
     coordinated by the IANA registry XXX.  This prefix is defined
     solely as a signaling mechanism and should not be considered part
     of the Elements of Procedure for securityNames, unless otherwise
     specified.

     [NOTE to RFC editor: please replace XXX with the IANA established
     registry reference]"


  In section 3.2.4 add this sentence to the end of
  the 6th paragraph:

     The transport-model specific prefix string that gets prepended to
     the securityName field for incoming messages, as discussed in
     section 3.2.2.1, can be used by architecture components like the
     Security Model or Access Control Model to distinguish between
     transport protocols that a message may have been received over.


  Section 6.3, first paragraph:

      Change "securityName" to "transport model prefixed securityName"


  The last paragraph of Section 7 (Security Considerations) should be
  appended with:

     A security transport model prepends a prefix string and an ascii
     colon to the front of a securityName to provide the security model
     with additional information to aid in its securityName selection
     process.

  Replace section 8 (IANA Considerations) with:
  
     This document describes a new prefix registry that has been created
     by IANA.  This registry, discussed in section 3.2.2.1, will contain
     1-4 length ASCII string prefixes to be prepended by transport
     modules to securityNames when incoming messages are received.
     Values are to be assigned via RFC2434 "Specification Required".



== In the TSM document: =================================================

  In section 2.3, last paragraph add:

   ... "and to leave or strip ASCII string transport prefixes from
   securityNames."

  In section 5.2, replace step 4 with:

   If the tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix object is set to false then set the
   securityName to the value of tmSecurityName from the cache referenced
   by tmStateReference.  If the tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix object is set
   to true then set the securityName to the portion of the value of
   tmSecurityName beyond the first colon (':', ASCII 0x3a).
   

   4) Set securityName to the value of tmSecurityName from the cache
      referenced by tmStateReference.  If the tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix
      object indicates that the TM prefix should be removed (i.e., its
      value is false(2)), remove everything up to and including the
      first ':' (ASCII 0x3a) character in the securityName value.

  Section 7, add the following objects (or similar) to the MIB:

     snmpTsmConfiguration         OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { snmpTsmMIBObjects 3 }

     tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix OBJECT-TYPE
         SYNTAX      TruthValue
         MAX-ACCESS  read-write
         STATUS      current
         DESCRIPTION
             "This object indicates whether the transport modules string
             prefix will be removed before being passing the securityName
             to the message processing model.  If set to true, the string
             prefix will be removed.  If set to false, the string prefix
             will be left in place in front of the securityName passed up
             from the transport.

             In particular authorization decisions made by an Access
             Control Module (e.g. the VACM) will be able to use this
             transport prefix in it's authorization decisions if this
             object is set to 'false'.  If set to 'true' then the TSM
             security model will strip the leading prefix and, for
             example, 'ssh:david' will become 'david' for purposes of
             authorization verification."
         DEFVAL { true }
         ::= {  }     

    (And add the tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix object to the snmpTsmGroup
    group)


   Section 8, update the second paragraph to read:

     Transport Security Model relies on a Transport Model to provide an
     authenticated principal that has been prefixed with the assigned
     Transport Model's prefix name for mapping to securityName, and an
     assertion of tmTransportSecurityLevel.

== In the SSH document ==================================================

  In section 3.1.1, append to bullet 4:

    The securityName provided by the SSH transport model is prefixed
    with "ssh:" to provide consuming SNMPv3 modules (like a security
    model) to understand what transport a given securityName originated
    from.

  In section 4.1, for the line starting "tmSecurityName =" change to:

    tmSecurityName = the concatenation of the ASCII string "ssh:" with the
    principal name [to be] authenticated by SSH.  See the section on
    tmSecurityName below.

  In section 4.2, change the second paragraph to:

    tmSecurityName is a human-readable name in SnmpAdminString format
    that is mapped from the identity that has been successfully
    authenticated by SSH.  By default, tmSecurityName is created by
    concatinating the ASCII string "ssh:" with the value of the user
    name field of the SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST message for which a
    SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_SUCCESS has been received.

  In section 4.2, add in a new second sentence to the 4th paragraph
  (IE, after the sentence "The SSH protocol is not always clear..."):

    Regardless of what mapping system may be utilized, the
    implementation must prefix the resulting tmSecurityName with "ssh:".

  In section 5.1, step 2 add a second sentence:

    Note: The calculated value at this point should not include the
    "ssh:" prefix.

  And in step 4 of 5.1:

     tmSecurityName = "ssh:" | sshtmLCDTmSecurityName

  In section 5.2 in step 1 add a second sentence:

    Remove the "ssh:" prefix from the tmSecurityName found in the
    tmStateReference for processing purposes in these steps.

  In section 10 (IANA Considerations) add:

    5) "ssh" as a prefix assignment in the XXX registry which will
       indicate the prefix string to attach to securityNames returned by
       the SSH Transport model

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:25:19PM +0100, Dave Shield wrote:

> As part of preparing for the ISMS session at IETF 72, I read through
> most of the relevant drafts shortly before the meeting.  As someone
> coming to this from an SNMP perspective, with no particular security
> expertise, I found the proposed mechanisms to be reasonably clear
> and understandable.  However, in a number of places throughout the
> various drafts, I sometime had to read a section two or three times
> to be sure that I had grasped what was being proposed.
> 
> In particular, there are several concepts common to the Transport
> Subsystem and Transport Security Model, and hence covered in both
> (or all three) documents.  However the individual descriptions are
> sometimes incomplete or inconsistent.  It proved necessary to read
> all three documents in detail, to fully understand what is required.
> Similarly, the terminology used is not entirely consistent between
> the three documents.
> 
>  I therefore offer the attached comments as a (somewhat verbose!)
> attempt to clarify text that I found to be less than straightforward to
> follow.  In most cases, I don't believe that these suggestions should
> affect the content of the proposals themselves - they are mostly
> simply wordsmithing of the descriptive text.
> 
>  There are also a number of places where I found the current drafts
> ambiguous or inconsistent.  I have attempted to identify these issues
> and sometime propose possible solutions.  These may involve some
> minor amendments to the proposed behaviour - particularly as relating
> to the mapping of security names.

Dave,

many thanks for your reviews and the detailed comments. Since many
comments are more editorial, I would like to ask David Harrington to
make a first pass through your comments to identify any comments that
according to his judgement are more than just editorial and require
the attention of the WG. For any of those comments, we should start
separate discussion threads to find a resolution.

David Harrington, is that approach OK with you?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
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We discussed this in the meeting and it's unclear that consensus on it
has been reached, but I wanted to spell out the details of what would
need to be changed if we support what I outlined in:

     From: me
  Subject: [Isms] Proposed SSH Transport Address Changes (and a quick nit)
     Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:43:05 -0700

Specifically, if you'll recall, I was proposing allowing for these since
SSH users are familiar with the syntax, and as Pasi pointed out in the
meeting we can name both sides of the connection in an
bidirectional/asymmetric authentication protocol:

  wes@127.0.0.1:161
  wes@host.example.com:161
  wes@[::1]:161



The list of document changes to the secshell draft that are need to
support this (IMHO) are really only 2 small changes and a possible large
deletion:


* Section 5.3, bullet 1:

  - Change:
    OLD:
      "The parameters of the transport connection and the credentials used
      to authenticate are provided in an implementation-dependent manner."

    NEW:
      "The destTransportAddress field may contain a "USER@" style prefix
      that will indicate a specific string that should presented to the
      ssh server as the "user name" for authentication purposes.  This
      may be different than the passed tmSecurityName value which should
      be used in the remaining steps.  The parameters of the transport
      connection and the credentials used to authenticate are provided
      in an implementation-dependent manner."

* Section 7 in the MIB Module

  - The SnmpSSHAddress should be modified to allow for the new leading
    prefix.  Suggest a rewrite of the beginning text to the following
    (adding bits and pieces to make it work):

         "Represents either a hostname with a port number, an IP
         address with a port number, a username, hostname and port
         number or a username, IP address and port number.

         The beginning of the address specification may contain a
         username followed by an '@' (ASCII character 0x40).  This
         portion of the address will indicate the user name that should
         be used when authenticating to an SSH server.  If missing, the
         SNMP securityName should be used.  After the optional user name
         field and '@' character comes the hostname.

         The hostname must be encoded in ASCII, as specified in
         RFC3490 (Internationalizing Domain Names in Applications)
         followed by a colon ':' (ASCII character 0x3A) and a
         decimal port number in ASCII. The name SHOULD be fully
         qualified whenever possible.

         An IPv4 address must be a dotted decimal format followed
         by a colon ':' (ASCII character 0x3A) and a decimal port
         number in ASCII.

         An IPv6 address must be a colon separated format, surrounded by
         brackets ('[' ASCII character 0x5B and ']' ASCII character
         0x5D), followed by a colon ':' (ASCII character 0x3A) and a
         decimal port number in ASCII.

         Values of this textual convention may not be directly useable
         ...  continue as before ...




* I THINK the sshtmLCDTable object can be removed after completion
  of this since the mapping is no longer needed.  The authentication
  credentials to be used I think can be safely pulled using the user@
  part of the transport address string in an implementation dependent
  way.  This is how current ssh implementations mostly work so I think
  it matches common current practice better than a separate mapping
  table.
  - It's possible the whole table could be removed, but leaving it in
    allows for deletion of active sessions and session activity
    monitoring.
  - But if we leave it, it should be noted that the current MIB has a
    sshtmLCDSessionID specified in the entry sequence, but the column
    doesn't actually exist in the table currently!


-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:41:42 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
To: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>, ISMS WG <isms@ietf.org>
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--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 02:55:35 PM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

>
> At the last IETF and over the mailing list we discussed having
> securityNames handed up by TMs to be prefixed with a PROTO: name type
> tag, where PROTO: would be ssh: dtls: etc.  I won't rehash why this was
> desired as that's in the list archives (and minutes).  But I'm going to
> revamp my write up of what I thought was close to consensus (which I'll
> leave to the chairs to decide if it's been reached).

This all sounds good to me.  However, it's not clear to me from your text 
what the default value of tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix is supposed to be.  My 
impression from the meeting was overall happiness would be maximized by 
making the default value be "true".  I personally don't care, but I believe 
that it should be specified.

-- Jeff
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>>>>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:41:42 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:

JH> This all sounds good to me.  However, it's not clear to me from your
JH> text what the default value of tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix is supposed
JH> to be.  My impression from the meeting was overall happiness would be
JH> maximized by making the default value be "true".  I personally don't
JH> care, but I believe that it should be specified.

It was specified in the object description:

         DEFVAL { true }

I agree, that was the consensus.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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--On Monday, August 25, 2008 02:43:51 PM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

>>>>>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:41:42 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman
>>>>>> <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:
>
> JH> This all sounds good to me.  However, it's not clear to me from your
> JH> text what the default value of tsmStripSecurityNamePrefix is supposed
> JH> to be.  My impression from the meeting was overall happiness would be
> JH> maximized by making the default value be "true".  I personally don't
> JH> care, but I believe that it should be specified.
>
> It was specified in the object description:
>
>          DEFVAL { true }

Oh, so it was.  I missed that.
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	Hutzelman's message of "Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:48:38 -0400")
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>>>>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:48:38 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:

JH> "Represents either a hostname or IP address, along with a port
JH> number and an optional username".

that's fine with me.

JH> "Represents either a hostname or IP address, along with an
JH> optional port number and/or username".

The port number isn't optional, so that doesn't work.

JH> The latter, of course, implies a change to make the ":port" part be
JH> optional.  I don't recall whether we've already discussed this, but
JH> I'm not sure I see a need to require specification of a port.

Most of the current SNMP transport specifications include a port number
so I suspect that's the reason for ensuring it's always there (then
again, though, most transport address specs are binary encoded not ascii
text).

I thought about bringing up whether it should be optional or not, but
never had a good reason why it would be beneficial to be optional...

Personally, I don't care too much.  The only question comes when two
different implementations use two different default values for port
numbers.

>> * I THINK the sshtmLCDTable object can be removed after completion
>> of this since the mapping is no longer needed.

JH> Perhaps.  I suspect you'll end up wanting some way to provide actual
JH> credentials to be used, such as a public/private key pair, but it's
JH> possible the mechanism for managing that can be
JH> implementation-dependent.

Well, last time I suggested that a zillion people screamed that's out of
scope of the WG and that the best that could be done would be a lookup
key/string for now ;-)
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:02:23 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
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--On Monday, August 25, 2008 02:54:44 PM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

> JH> The latter, of course, implies a change to make the ":port" part be
> JH> optional.  I don't recall whether we've already discussed this, but
> JH> I'm not sure I see a need to require specification of a port.
>
> Most of the current SNMP transport specifications include a port number
> so I suspect that's the reason for ensuring it's always there (then
> again, though, most transport address specs are binary encoded not ascii
> text).
>
> I thought about bringing up whether it should be optional or not, but
> never had a good reason why it would be beneficial to be optional...

Well, there is a default port for SSH.
Presumably there will be a standard port for SNMP-over-SSH, though it's 
unclear to me whether it should be the same as the default port for SSH or 
something different.

It seems counterproductive for users to have to know that SSH uses port 22.

> Personally, I don't care too much.  The only question comes when two
> different implementations use two different default values for port
> numbers.

Well, I think we'd have to standardize the default port if we did this.



>>> * I THINK the sshtmLCDTable object can be removed after completion
>>> of this since the mapping is no longer needed.
>
> JH> Perhaps.  I suspect you'll end up wanting some way to provide actual
> JH> credentials to be used, such as a public/private key pair, but it's
> JH> possible the mechanism for managing that can be
> JH> implementation-dependent.
>
> Well, last time I suggested that a zillion people screamed that's out of
> scope of the WG and that the best that could be done would be a lookup
> key/string for now ;-)

Well, that's probably true.  I was probably even one of those people. :-)

-- Jeff
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:48:38 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
To: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>, ISMS WG <isms@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Isms] user@address:port proposal for secshell
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--On Monday, August 25, 2008 02:11:57 PM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

>
> We discussed this in the meeting and it's unclear that consensus on it
> has been reached, but I wanted to spell out the details of what would
> need to be changed if we support what I outlined in:
>
>      From: me
>   Subject: [Isms] Proposed SSH Transport Address Changes (and a quick nit)
>      Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:43:05 -0700
>
> Specifically, if you'll recall, I was proposing allowing for these since
> SSH users are familiar with the syntax, and as Pasi pointed out in the
> meeting we can name both sides of the connection in an
> bidirectional/asymmetric authentication protocol:
>
>   wes@127.0.0.1:161
>   wes@host.example.com:161
>   wes@[::1]:161

I support this proposal.  In fact, as discussed at the meeting, I think it 
is essential because we must be able to specify the username to be 
presented to the remote ssh server, and in the case of a notification 
originator this is practically guaranteed not to be related to the 
securityName in any meaningful way.

> * Section 7 in the MIB Module
>
>   - The SnmpSSHAddress should be modified to allow for the new leading
>     prefix.  Suggest a rewrite of the beginning text to the following
>     (adding bits and pieces to make it work):
>
>          "Represents either a hostname with a port number, an IP
>          address with a port number, a username, hostname and port
>          number or a username, IP address and port number.

Ugh ugh ugh.  How about...

   "Represents either a hostname or IP address, along with a port
    number and an optional username".

Or even

   "Represents either a hostname or IP address, along with an
    optional port number and/or username".

The latter, of course, implies a change to make the ":port" part be 
optional.  I don't recall whether we've already discussed this, but I'm not 
sure I see a need to require specification of a port.

> * I THINK the sshtmLCDTable object can be removed after completion
>   of this since the mapping is no longer needed.

Perhaps.  I suspect you'll end up wanting some way to provide actual 
credentials to be used, such as a public/private key pair, but it's 
possible the mechanism for managing that can be implementation-dependent.

-- Jeff
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>>>>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:02:23 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:

JH> It seems counterproductive for users to have to know that SSH uses
JH> port 22.

The current transport address definitions for UDP/TCP, for example,
require a port spec.  I suspect many users don't actually know, however,
that it's port 161 for commands and 162 for notifications because most
things hide that from the users.

JH> Well, I think we'd have to standardize the default port if we did this.

Currently we have two different ports for SNMP, as just mentioned.
Frequently notifications are sent to a different application than an
agent running on the device (for obvious reasons).  Thus we need to
some combination of:

1) say all address specs must include a port
2) specify default port destinations for both notifications and commands
3) specify default ssh subsystem names for both notifications and commands
   (right now, there is just "snmp" which is entirely possible not the
   best solution for trying to connect to a management station that has
   it's own agent running on it in addition to the notification receiver).

>> Well, last time I suggested that a zillion people screamed that's out of
>> scope of the WG and that the best that could be done would be a lookup
>> key/string for now ;-)

JH> Well, that's probably true.  I was probably even one of those
JH> people. :-)

You were.  But I wasn't going to bring it up ;-)
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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First, let me preface this with an important point: the document is very
well written.  It's been a while since I last read it and the current
version is very nicely polished.  Thanks for doing such a good job
David!  It's worth noting again that I reviewed it in the context of the
DTLS draft I've been working on and see no issues (aside from the ones
I'll mention) with using multiple transports underneath it (like SSH
and DTLS both).

I do have a few minor things to point out though with edit text, and a
maybe few questions which I'll bring up in separate messages.

* Section 2.1.1, 3rd paragraph:        

   - The current text says:

     "The Transport Security Model is called a Security Model to be
     compatible with the RFC3411 architecture.  However, this Security
     Model does not provide security mechanisms such as authentication and
     encryption itself, so it SHOULD always be used with a Transport Model
     that provides appropriate security."

   - I disagree with this general statement (and this paragraph isn't as
     negative as the one in the security consideration sections which
     has an extra sentence).  The TSM does not perform any encryption or
     authentication or integrity protection services, but it is very
     much a security model and it does provide a few critical security
     functions.

   - How about this instead (and this needs to be replace Section 8,
     paragraph 3 (in the Security Considerations) too):
   
     "The Transport Security Model is a Security Model that is compatible
     with the RFC3411 architecture.  However, this Security Model does
     not provide some of the typical security mechanisms such as
     integrity protection, authentication and encryption itself since it
     relies on the lower level transport to perform these tasks.  The
     Transport Security Model does, however, provide critical security
     related tasks (such as dropping requests that fail to meet
     securityLevel requirements or requests that came in over transports
     not authorized by configuration settings).  The Transport
     Security Model SHOULD always be used with a Transport Model that
     provides appropriate security."

* Section 2.3, 3rd paragraph:

  - drop the **s or change to ()s
    - (was this an editing note? it's not standard ID mark-up).

* Section 2.3, last paragraph:

  - Add ", configure the Transport Security Model to manipulate
    securityName mappings, and a scalar to control securityName mapping
    prefix processing".
    - (that last bit does assume consensus in the other email thread has
      been reached).

* General MIB: snmpTsmLCDTable:
  - Was there a result to the discussion about the naming of this table?
    - LCD is kind of generic
    - Personally, I'd suggest "snmpTsmConnectionTable" or something.
      - (I refrained from using "session")

* Sections 4 and 5:
  - These are EOPs and if we want to be consistent with the other
    documents, I'd suggest having a separate EOP top-level section and
    putting all the EOP steps within this document into the new
    top-level EOP section.  This is obviously a nit though.

* Section 4.2, Step 5:
  - nit: Step 5 could be improved by describing how the message parts
    should be combined with a better verb?  How about "The wholeMsg is
    now created by serializing the message parts together."

    - (this more closely resembles the USM wording...  really the only
      verb I changed was "combine" to "serialize")

* Section 5.2:
  - Step 5:  
    - Delete the "," after "(Priv)," to avoid grouping confusion.
  - Step 6:
    - "the security data is cached..."
    - I'd suggest listing what security data you're talking about.  It's
      probably important to get right and I'm not even sure, without
      analyzing it in detail, which ones should be cached.

* Section 6:
  - Add "and a scalar to configure securityName mapping prefix
    processing" if consensus is reached on the new scalar.

* Section 6.4 to 6.5:
  - New section needed for the potential scalar

    <section title="The snmpTsmConfig Subtree">
    <t>This subtree contains a scalar that specifies whether the TSM
    should remove (the default) or leave the transport specific prefix
    string that is attached to tmSecurityNames.</t>
    </section>

* Section 6.4 (current before insertion of just discussed new section):

  - Should the VACM mib be added here?  I'd think so.

* MIB:
  - nit: indentation is funky after "snmpTsmMIBObjects" definition
  - nit: descriptions oddly indented/outdented: snmpTsmLCDDomainTable,
    snmpTsmLCDDomainEntry,
  - issue: snmpTsmLCDDomainTable vs snmpTsmLCDTransformEntry


* Section 8.1:
  - First 'o' bullet:
    - change "valid domains" to "transport models" since I think most
      people aren't used to the "domain" terminology.
  - third 'o' bullet:
    - Add "Access to the" to the beginning
    - Add "objects" before "may"

* Section 9:
  - I'd like to answer the "DISCUSS" comment by saying:  I don't think
    this is the right document to discuss default ports.  The TSM
    doesn't have a clue what the requirements of the transports are
    below it and thus this isn't the right document to discuss anything
    related to the transport itself.  It'd be something that would need
    to be considered on a per-transport basis.

* Appendix A:
  - I'm not sure :162 is a good choice for a transport address to use
    for an example snmpSSHDomain address.  :22 would probably be a
    better choice (or an IANA assigned different port altogether).
    Certainly, however, 162 is not a good choice :-)
  - For the snmpTargetParamsTable row, the snmpTargetParamsSecurityModel
    should be "YY" (with a note to the editor) not the text string
    TransportSecurityModel.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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I know David has expressed multiple times that he thinks we have too
many securityName mapping locations and the current documents have them
all in place even though he's not convinced they're all needed.  Here's
my analysis of the current (complex) state.  I'm including DTLS in the
pipelines below since I think it helps show where two different
transports come together and where the mapping-system merges.  The
"prefix" support (ssh: and dtls:) are what has been discussed recently
in another thread.  The following diagram depicts the *potential* sets
of mapping components that exist in the various modules (it's "potential"
because some are still in the air as far as a decision goes):


  +---------+     +------+     +-----------------+     +----------+       
  |   SSH   |     | SSH  |     |      sshtm      |     |   add    |       
  |  user   |     |  TM  |     |    LCDTable     |     |   ssh:   |       
  |  name   | --> |      | --> |       map       | --> |  prefix  | ------+
  +---------+     +------+     +-----------------+     +----------+       |
                                                                          |
                                                                          |
                                                                          |
                                                                          v
  +---------+     +------+     +-----------------+     +----------+     +---+
  |  DTLS   |     |      |     |     dtlstm      |     |   add    |     |   |
  |  X509   |     | DTLS |     |     CertTo      |     |  dtls:   |     | * |
  | Subject |     |  TM  |     |     SNTable     |     |  prefix  |     |   |
  |  Field  | --> |      | --> |       map       | --> |          | --> |   |
  +---------+     +------+     +-----------------+     +----------+     +---+



  +---------+     +------+     +-----------------+     +----------+
  |         |     |      |     |   snmpTsmLCD    |     |   vacm   |
  |         |     |      |     |   DomainTable   |     | Security |
  |    *    |     | TSM  |     |       and       |     |    To    |
  |         |     |      |     | snmpTsmLCDTable |     |  Group   |
  |         |     |      |     |                 |     |  Table   |
  |         |     |      |     |                 |     |  (Size   |
  |         | --> |      | --> |                 | --> |   1..32) |
  +---------+     +------+     +-----------------+     +----------+



So the steps, starting from the beginning:

1. The transport authentication system passes in "something" that the TM
   has to make use of.  EG, the SSH user name or the X509 Certificate
2. The TM transforms this input into a local tmSecurityName.  For SSH
   this is done through the sshtmLCDTable and for DTLS this is done
   throuh the snmpTsmLCDDomainTable.
   + Some TMs may have binary blobs to identify users by.  They will
     definitely have to provide some sort of to-text-mapping.
   + Some TMs may have strings that are too long to pass to much of the
     SNMP infrastructure
     - SSH may allow longer lengths than 32 for user names?  I couldn't
       find this anyway, but suspect it's true.  It's not, however, true
       in real world practice and deployment at this point though (AFAIK).
     - X509 provides a good example for this: The Subject: field of a
       X509 cert is typically much longer than would be acceptable as an
       identifier by SNMP.
3. The TM prefixes the derived tmSecurityName with a unique identifier
   (eg ssh: or dtls:) to help identify exactly which protocol it came in
   over.  This is one of the current outstanding proposals that appears
   to have reached consensus.
4. The TM passes the final derived and prefixed tmSecurityName to the
   TSM via the tmStateReference.
5. The TSM obtains the tmSecurityName and possibly strips the ssh: or
   dtls: prefix off (the default is to strip it).
6. The TSM transforms the security name, based on the domain it's
   received on (eg ssh or dtls) either:

   a) as a 1:1 mapping if snmpTsmLCDDomainTable points to "default"
   b) as a private mapping if snmpTsmLCDDomainTable points to "private"
   c) drop the message because the mapping is set to "disable"

7. The snmpTsmLCDTable possibly maps an individual tmSecurityName to a
   different securityName.  By default this is populated with the
   results from #6, *but* it is editable so it's assumed that a
   management station could (I'm unclear on this):

   + change the value after a session is up?
   + change the value for future sessions?

   + I'm also not clear when this table is consulted, since it's usage
     not discussed in the EOP.  If it's merely a recording table of what
     has taken place or is live, then why is it read-create?  If it can
     be set up by a manager then when during the EOP is it consulted?
     Order matters since there are 3 multiple mapping systems within the
     TSM itself (one of which is the prefix string dropping).
8.  Finally the VACM itself maps a securityName to a group name in it's
    processing, which is really where the consumer of the information
    gets to make a decision.


So...  did I go wrong anywhere in all of that writeup David?  If so, where?


What I propose, assuming I didn't blow my analysis somewhere, is to:


A)  Drop the snmpTsmLCDTable.  I think the usage of the ssh: and dtls:
    prefixes actually removes the need for the more complex mapping (and
    in fact that was the purpose of the string prefixes: to meet in a
    middle ground for complex mapping vs no mapping).

B)  Drop the sshtmLCDTable mapping support.  The only real reason this
    is needed if we do have a string: prefix would be to map long user
    names to short ones and I don't think it's needed based on current
    usage at least.  We would likely need a counter for
    "userNameTooLong" or something just to provide failure reason
    detection.

    (note: DTLS still needs a mapping table from the longer X509 fields
    to the shorter securityName fields)


I think dropping those tables should make the mapping-haters happier as
well as still allowing simple minimal mapping via the string prefixes
available.


The outgoing case is pretty much a reversal of the above but doesn't
really benefit as much from the mapping in the first place (aside from
selecting a user name and credentials).  The username@ prefix to the
transport address for SSH actually solves much of the need for outgoing
securityName mapping on the SSH side of things.


Hopefully this may help address some of David's concerns about too much
mapping being in existence as well as simplify some of the mib
implementation requirements.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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From isms-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Aug 27 17:34:41 2008
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:34:29 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
To: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>, ISMS WG <isms@ietf.org>
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--On Wednesday, August 27, 2008 04:00:57 PM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

> A)  Drop the snmpTsmLCDTable.  I think the usage of the ssh: and dtls:
>     prefixes actually removes the need for the more complex mapping (and
>     in fact that was the purpose of the string prefixes: to meet in a
>     middle ground for complex mapping vs no mapping).

+1


> B)  Drop the sshtmLCDTable mapping support.  The only real reason this
>     is needed if we do have a string: prefix would be to map long user
>     names to short ones and I don't think it's needed based on current
>     usage at least.  We would likely need a counter for
>     "userNameTooLong" or something just to provide failure reason
>     detection.

+1 but don't preclude implementations from providing support for a mapping 
here, specifically to deal with the long username problem.  It may turn out 
that this is a problem e.g. in deployments where ssh is authenticated by 
GSS-krb5 using the organization's windows domain, with usernames being the 
user's actual full name.


I'm not sure what the snmpTsmLDCDomainTable transformation you describe in 
step 6 is for.  It seems to provide a more complex mapping which should be 
eliminated by the boolean strip-the-prefix-or-not behavior we seem to have 
settled on.

-- Jeff
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From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
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Hi,

I submitted a revised draft (-13) for the tmsm document.
There were two sets of editorial change requests, so I did those.
They requested some significant reorganization of the document.

I deliberately did not do the technical changes yet.
I will submit a revision with technical changes soon.
I did this so a diff will highlight the technical changes better.

David Harrington
dbharrington@comcast.net
ietfdbh@comcast.net
dharrington@huawei.com

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Integrated Security Model for SNMP Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Transport Subsystem for the Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP)
	Author(s)       : D. Harrington, J. Schoenwaelder
	Filename        : draft-ietf-isms-tmsm-13.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2008-08-27

This document defines a Transport Subsystem, extending the Simple
Network Management Protocol (SNMP) architecture defined in RFC 3411.
This document defines a subsystem to contain Transport Models,
comparable to other subsystems in the RFC3411 architecture.  As work
is being done to expand the transports to include secure transports
such as SSH and TLS, using a subsystem will enable consistent design
and modularity of such Transport Models.  This document identifies
and describes some key aspects that need to be considered for any
Transport Model for SNMP.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isms-tmsm-13.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Hi,

The changes I made from rev12 to rev13 of the tmsm document were
driven by 

Dave Shield:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/isms/current/msg03017.html
Wes: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/isms/current/msg02970.html

I made almost every change requested, as requested.
Thank you both for the thorough reviews and proposed text.
I think the document has been greatly improved by your proposals.

Dave requested some reorganization, so some of the changes will be
hard to compare using diffs. If your favorite paragraph or sentence
went missing, look around - it probably just moved. 

It took about three days of editing to make these changes, verify
nothing was left out inadvertently, and that technical decisions were
not affected (much). I will be doing the same with the other two
documents. sigh.

Then I will begin to insert the proposed technical changes.

I ask everybody to please review the updated editorial revisions, so
we can all be on the same page (iterally!) when discussing the
subsequent technical changes.

Thanks,

David Harrington
dbharrington@comcast.net
ietfdbh@comcast.net
dharrington@huawei.com

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Subject: Re: [Isms] mapping here, mapping there, mapping everywhere
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>>>>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:34:29 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:

>> B)  Drop the sshtmLCDTable mapping support.
[...]

JH> +1 but don't preclude implementations from providing support for a
JH> mapping here, specifically to deal with the long username problem.

Agreed.  In fact the DTLS draft *has* to have a separate mapping table
because of the length of x509 identifiers.

JH> It may turn out that this is a problem e.g. in deployments where ssh
JH> is authenticated by GSS-krb5 using the organization's windows
JH> domain, with usernames being the user's actual full name.

Yep.  Or realm based suffixes.  However, even that is most typically
less than 32-strlen("ssh:") though there are definite exceptions at that
point.


Soapbox: Technically, I actually think we should have one long-to-short
mapping table in the TSM since I think it's a likely common issue
between the transports.  However, many vocal opinions of the past
thought we should have minimal mapping support at the TSM layer because
not much needed it at the moment (SSH names are rarely longer than 8 in
most common real-world deployment today).  It actually turns out that
for X509 cases I really needed a table within the DTLS draft anyway,
though, so in the end it wouldn't have saved my anything by having
common infrastructure.  (the DTLS draft needed a table to specify
whether to use a generic commonname field straight up by a trusted CA vs
doing a individual mapping per every individual...  So configuration was
already needed for mapping at the DTLS TM specific level).

JH> I'm not sure what the snmpTsmLDCDomainTable transformation you
JH> describe in step 6 is for.  It seems to provide a more complex mapping
JH> which should be eliminated by the boolean strip-the-prefix-or-not
JH> behavior we seem to have settled on.

Right...  I agree.  The only real purpose it serves now is to provide
configuration for completely turning off a service (the disable(3)
value).  Although, the scalar flip to passing the prefix and not
providing authorization accomplishes the same thing it does require more
overhead since it doesn't actually turn of the service (with all the
crypto calculations attached).
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:09:49 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
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--On Thursday, August 28, 2008 07:59:58 AM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

> JH> I'm not sure what the snmpTsmLDCDomainTable transformation you
> JH> describe in step 6 is for.  It seems to provide a more complex mapping
> JH> which should be eliminated by the boolean strip-the-prefix-or-not
> JH> behavior we seem to have settled on.
>
> Right...  I agree.  The only real purpose it serves now is to provide
> configuration for completely turning off a service (the disable(3)
> value).  Although, the scalar flip to passing the prefix and not
> providing authorization accomplishes the same thing it does require more
> overhead since it doesn't actually turn of the service (with all the
> crypto calculations attached).

Neither does the table, if it is implemented by TSM as its name suggests. 
By the time TSM gets control, the transport connection has already been 
established, and the hard work is already done.

The right way to disable a transport is to disable the transport, not to 
configure TSM to reject messages arriving via that transport.

-- Jeff
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>>>>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:09:49 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:

JH> Neither does the table, if it is implemented by TSM as its name
JH> suggests. By the time TSM gets control, the transport connection has
JH> already been established, and the hard work is already done.

JH> The right way to disable a transport is to disable the transport, not
JH> to configure TSM to reject messages arriving via that transport.

I agree.  Though I have suspicions that people implementing it wouldn't
follow the architecture quite so rigorously and thus it still provides a
switch.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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Hi,

> Soapbox: Technically, I actually think we should have one 
> long-to-short
> mapping table in the TSM since I think it's a likely common issue
> between the transports.  However, many vocal opinions of the past
> thought we should have minimal mapping support at the TSM 
> layer because
> not much needed it at the moment (SSH names are rarely longer 
> than 8 in
> most common real-world deployment today). 

Complexity is the enemy of security. We need to provide a
simple-to-configure secure solution. 

I have no objection to having mappings tables in TSM.
I object to having mandatory-to-implement tables that not everybody
needs.
I object to having the optional tables described as part of TSM, when
they could simply be independent MIB modules that people do or do not
choose to implement.

I think VACM fails the simple-to-configure rule. VACM is way more
complex than most operators need. The learning curve is huge because
it has options up the whazzoo (did I get that spelling right?). I
liken this to taking a space shuttle to the store to buy milk; you can
do it, but who would want to pay for it and learn how to use it when
they could just walk, bike, or drive? 

I do not want to see ISMS produce specs with lots of options for some
small segemnts of the industry. RFC3411 was designed to allow the IETF
to develop standardized models for the 80% solution, and then the
small segments that want extra features can design their own models.
History has shown that the segments who "require" these extra features
in SNMPv3 do not find it required enough to develop alternate models.
This approach is a good way to focus on the essentials and eliminate
the nice-to-haves.

I have concerns that we are going to change the SSHDomain to add
sending to somebody other than the current user name, because a small
segemnt of the industry might use it. Write another model that
supports this! Do not make it a requirement of SSHTM to support a
small segment of the community.

I am concerned about adding mapping tables to TSM because a small
segement of the population might use a technology that has longer than
32-character names. Write another model that supports longer names!
Don't make it something that everybody has to deal with. Even if it
has nice defaults (and I'm sure the space shuttle has lots of nice
defaults too), it increases the complexity and the learning curve and
the operational costs.

KISS - Keep ISMS's SNMP simple!

David Harrington
dbharrington@comcast.net
ietfdbh@comcast.net
dharrington@huawei.com

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Organization: Sparta
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>>>>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:48:13 -0400, "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net> said:

DH> I object to having mandatory-to-implement tables that not everybody
DH> needs.

Sorry to bring your blood-pressure up.  I added the paragraph for Jeff's
benefit to document that it's been discussed and the WG has pretty much
opted not to go there.

Drat.  I responded.  I said I'd make this short and then blew it.  Feel
free not to read it David, because I'm not even arguing that we change
past decisions.  I'm merely explaining my rational behind my statements.





DH> I think VACM fails the simple-to-configure rule. VACM is way more
DH> complex than most operators need. The learning curve is huge because
DH> it has options up the whazzoo (did I get that spelling right?).

There is a rather deployed base out there that offers an interface that
completely hides the complexity of the VACM for those that don't need
complex configurations.  All the users of the simplistic wrapper never
complain it's hard to use.  Many do, however, start needing more
flexibility in their authorization rights and some of them certainly do
start asking questions about the best way to do the in-depth
not-easy-wrapped VACM configuration.  This actually proves to me,
however, that the need for those complex configurations is well above
even 10%.

In fact, I originally thought the VACM was over the top in many areas
and was more complex than it needed to be.  Because of my direct
interactions with users that fall into both extremes of the usage model,
I actually have retracted my original feelings and think it's a good
middle ground solution.

Thus, the VACM example doesn't work for me.

DH> I am concerned about adding mapping tables to TSM because a small
DH> segement of the population might use a technology that has longer than
DH> 32-character names.

I think that there is a huge discrepancy here between what we consider
the user base to be.  I actually think there is a fairly large segment
of the population that will be using longer-than-32-character names over
potentially multiple transports.

I agree that if we have only this:

  SSH -> TSM -> VACM

It doesn't matter where we stick the limiting agent that reduces longer
names to < 32 octets.  In fact, because the 95% SSH use case out there
is of usernames < 8 octets it probably doesn't need to exist.

But, eventually we may end up with:

  DTLS/K509----\
                V
  SSH/KRB   -> TSM -> VACM
                ^
  TLS/K509-----/
              /
  ???--------/

In which case sticking a mapping table in each of the transports no
longer scales as well and requires a lot more configuration tables, not
less.  "KISS now" just lost when we get to that point.  I don't think
it's farther way.  The world is moving far away from 8-character
identifiers as logins become more attached to X509 cert fields or email
addresses or Full names or ...

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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--On Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:48:13 AM -0400 David Harrington 
<ietfdbh@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have concerns that we are going to change the SSHDomain to add
> sending to somebody other than the current user name, because a small
> segemnt of the industry might use it. Write another model that
> supports this! Do not make it a requirement of SSHTM to support a
> small segment of the community.

On this point, I think you are confused.  We are changing the SSHDomain to 
allow specifying the username to use when connecting to the remote ssh 
server.  This is not "sending to somebody other than the current user 
name"; it is identifying ourselves (the notification originator) as 
somebody other than the current securityName, which names the notification 
recipient.  Since it is uncommon to send a notification to oneself, this is 
the rule, not the exception.


I'm also very concerned about what seems to be a desire to standardize as 
little as we can get away with and still support the single most common use 
case, marginalizing everyone else.  History has shown that those of us who 
want or need strong authentication for anything from remote login to 
filesystems to databases to network management _JUST LOSE_ because none of 
us are big enough to force the vendors to implement something nonstandard. 
This situation is not acceptable to me, and I am not interested in being 
part of the problem.

I agree that too much complexity in configuration creates problems, but I 
do not agree with the philosophy that "configuration is bad, less 
configuration is easier to use, so everyone should do it my way, and if you 
don't want to do it my way, you're SOL".  If that's how we think, then why 
not just tell everyone to run Windows and IOS and give up on 
standardization entirely?

-- Jeff
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--On Thursday, August 28, 2008 09:30:10 AM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

> The world is moving far away from 8-character
> identifiers as logins become more attached to X509 cert fields or email
> addresses or Full names or ...

No.  The world was done with 8-character user names 10 years ago.
Many modern UNIXes have no such limit.
Windows has no such limit.
No modern authentication protocol has such a limit.

And most importantly, random operators know of no such limit, and so they 
create accounts with whatever names seem useful.  Just because you and I 
live in environments with the 8-character username assumption embedded in 
decades-old code and policy doesn't mean that that assumption has any place 
_at all_ in defining standards for the Internet.
_______________________________________________
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Hi,

We don't have an 8-character limit either. I don't know why we are
even talking about 8-character limits.

VACM limits us to 32 characters:
vacmSecurityName OBJECT-TYPE
    SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))

We are not chartered to change VACM.

The rest of the system does not appear to limit us:

RFC3413 doesn't limit us:
   snmpTargetParamsSecurityName OBJECT-TYPE
       SYNTAX      SnmpAdminString
       MAX-ACCESS  read-create
       STATUS      current
       DESCRIPTION
           "The securityName which identifies the Principal on
            whose behalf SNMP messages will be generated using
            this entry."
       ::= { snmpTargetParamsEntry 4 } 

RFC3411 doesn't limit us:
SnmpAdminString ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION
    DISPLAY-HINT "255t"
	...
    SYNTAX       OCTET STRING (SIZE (0..255))

and SSH user-auth (RFC4252) doesn't limit us:
      string    user name in ISO-10646 UTF-8 encoding [RFC3629]

USM has its own 32-character limit:
           msgUserName                  OCTET STRING (SIZE(0..32)),
and
usmUserName      OBJECT-TYPE
    SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))
But those should not impact TSM or SSHTM.

We have a 32-character limit in the current revisions of TSM and SSHTM
LCDs; I am not sure we need this restriction, and I can remove it if
that is WG consensus:

snmpTsmLCDSecurityName      OBJECT-TYPE
    SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))

and here ...

sshtmLCDTmSecurityName      OBJECT-TYPE
    SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))

and here ...

sshtmLCDPrincipal      OBJECT-TYPE
    SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))

Is 255 (minus the SSH: prefix) large enough to satisy?

Assuming 255 is large enough, how do we define a table to map from an
unpredictable 255 character identifier for an authenticated entity
down to a 32 character snmpAdminString identifier for VACM that does
not introduce security risks?

David Harrington
dbharrington@comcast.net
ietfdbh@comcast.net
dharrington@huawei.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Hutzelman [mailto:jhutz@cmu.edu] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:13 PM
> To: Wes Hardaker; David Harrington
> Cc: 'ISMS WG'; jhutz@cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Isms] mapping here, mapping there, mapping everywhere
> 
> --On Thursday, August 28, 2008 09:30:10 AM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
> <wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:
> 
> > The world is moving far away from 8-character
> > identifiers as logins become more attached to X509 cert 
> fields or email
> > addresses or Full names or ...
> 
> No.  The world was done with 8-character user names 10 years ago.
> Many modern UNIXes have no such limit.
> Windows has no such limit.
> No modern authentication protocol has such a limit.
> 
> And most importantly, random operators know of no such limit, 
> and so they 
> create accounts with whatever names seem useful.  Just 
> because you and I 
> live in environments with the 8-character username assumption 
> embedded in 
> decades-old code and policy doesn't mean that that assumption 
> has any place 
> _at all_ in defining standards for the Internet.
> 

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Isms] mapping here, mapping there, mapping everywhere
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David Harrington writes...

> ...how do we define a table to map from an
> unpredictable 255 character identifier for an authenticated 
> entity down to a 32 character snmpAdminString identifier for
> VACM that does not introduce security risks?

Um, allow the table entries to contain arbitrarily complex regular
expressions?  ;-)

I guess what you're asking is how can the operator know that there will not
be unexpected mapping "collisions" within the constraints of his/her
particular deployment?   That seems a less general (i.e. more tractable)
problem to solve. 


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From isms-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Aug 28 16:05:42 2008
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:05:36 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
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	"'Wes Hardaker'" <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
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Subject: Re: [Isms] mapping here, mapping there, mapping everywhere
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--On Thursday, August 28, 2008 05:12:25 PM -0400 David Harrington 
<ietfdbh@comcast.net> wrote:

> We don't have an 8-character limit either. I don't know why we are
> even talking about 8-character limits.

Me either; it's Wes who keeps bringing them up.

> VACM limits us to 32 characters:
> vacmSecurityName OBJECT-TYPE
>     SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))

So, VACM has this limit, but the architecture doesn't impose a limit on the 
length of the securityName produced by the MPM?  If USM has the same limit, 
then I'll bet no one has ever noticed there is a problem.

I suspect the best thing to do is to assume that the architecture has a 
32-character limit for security names, keep that same limit in TSM, and 
arrange for SSHTM to never emit names longer than that.  I think it is 
probably OK to say that...

- by default, the tmSecurityName produced by sshtm consists of the string
  "ssh:" followed by the SSH username
- if the tmSecurityName would exceed 32 characters in length, then sshtm
  MUST instead generate some error/drop the request/whatever

The thing we perhaps leave unstated is that it is permissible to provide an 
implementation-specific means to configure a non-default mapping, in which 
sshtm produces a tmSecurityName consisting of the string "ssh:" followed by 
something other than the SSH username.

Note that in the case of DTLS, the tmSecurityName is going to consist of 
the string "dtls:" followed by some string which is somehow derived from 
the DTLS client certificate.  I don't know how much configuration Wes is 
providing there, but IMHO it makes sense for the mapping in each case, to 
the extent that it is necessary, to occur in the TM, because the input to 
the mapping is a transport-specific form.

> Is 255 (minus the SSH: prefix) large enough to satisy?

I would think so, but then, people used to think 8-character userid's were 
enough.  My preference would be to avoid hard limits entirely, and instead 
support a soft limit ("implementations may limit the length of usernames, 
but names of up to NNN characters _must_ be supported").

However...

> Assuming 255 is large enough, how do we define a table to map from an
> unpredictable 255 character identifier for an authenticated entity
> down to a 32 character snmpAdminString identifier for VACM that does
> not introduce security risks?

I'd rather not think about that, which is why I am suggesting we retain the 
32-character limit.

-- Jeff
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Subject: [Isms] dublin isms meeting minutes
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--J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf
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Hi,

I am attaching the draft meeting minutes from Dublin. Please take a
look and let me know if something has been recorded incorrectly.

I in particular like to draw your attention to the "observations" a) -
e) which try to summarize the constraints in which we work out the
name mappings. For the gory details, simply listen to the audio
recording (which is pretty decent and has been very helpful for
producing these minutes).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf
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=======================================================
Integrated Security Model for SNMP WG (isms)
IETF 72 Dublin
Thursday, July 31, 2008, 1510-1610
Taken by Juergen Schoenwaelder, Dave Shield
=======================================================

Chair:
  Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
          
Agenda:
          
  1) Agenda bashing, WG status				( 5 min)
  2) Discussion of transport subsystem draft		( 5 min)
  3) Discussion of transport security model draft	(20 min)
  4) Discussion of SSH transport model draft		(20 min)
  5) Discussion of RADIUS draft				( 5 min)
  6) Review of milestones and action points		( 5 min)
          
Documents:

  - Transport Subsystem for the Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP)
    <draft-ietf-isms-tmsm-12.txt>
  - Transport Security Model for SNMP
    <draft-ietf-isms-transport-security-model-08.txt>
  - Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP
    <draft-ietf-isms-secshell-11.txt>
  - Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service (RADIUS) Usage for 
    Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Transport Models
    <draft-ietf-isms-radius-usage-02.txt>

  - Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Context EngineID Discovery
    <draft-ietf-opsawg-snmp-engineid-discovery-02.txt>
  - Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service (RADIUS) Authorization 
    for Network Access Server (NAS) Management
    <draft-ietf-radext-management-authorization-03.txt>
  - Simplified View-based Access Control Model (SVACM) for the Simple 
    Network Management Protocol (SNMP)
    <draft-li-isms-svacm-00.txt>
  - Datagram Transport Layer Security Transport Model for SNMP
    <draft-hardaker-isms-dtls-tm-00.txt>
          
Actors:

JS = Juergen Schoenwaelder
DH = David Harrington
JH = Jeffrey Hutzelman
JO = Joseph Salowey
WH = Wes Hardacker
PE = Pasi Eronen
BW = Bert Wijnen
DN = David Nelson
KN = Kaushik Narayan
...

Summary:

   The ISMS WG has four WG documents: the Transport Subsystem for SNMP
   <draft-ietf-isms-tmsm-12.txt>, the Transport Security Model for
   SNMP <draft-ietf-isms-transport-security-model-08.txt>, the Secure
   Shell Transport Model for SNMP <draft-ietf-isms-secshell-11.txt>,
   and the Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service (RADIUS) Usage
   for Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Transport Models
   <draft-ietf-isms-radius-usage-02.txt>. The open discussion points
   mainly concern the Transport Security Model and the Secure Shell
   Transport Model documents and in particular the mappings of the
   identity used by secure transports (e.g. SSH user names) to the
   SNMPv3 securityName. There has been good progress during the
   meeting and on the mailing list to resolve these issues and the
   goal is now to get revised documents into WG last call in September
   and to the IESG in November.

Discussions:

1. Agenda and WG Status

   JS reviews the status of the WG documents. Most documents are in a
   good shape. The open issues concern the Transport Security Model
   (TSM) and SSH Transport Model (SSH-TM) documents. Two documents
   related to ISMS WG documents in the OPSAWG and the RADEXT WG have
   already gone to the IESG.

2. Discussion of Core ISMS Drafts

   DH started by reviewing the changes that were made to the documents
   following the last call that took place around IETF-69. See his
   slides for a summary of the changes.

   Issue: Predictability of securityName

   The securityName of an incoming message must be predictable for
   the VACM/Target/Event MIB modules to work properly.

   - Incoming Messages:

     SSH supports several user authentication protocols and it was
     discussed to what extend we can assume that the SSH user name is
     filled in and provide the authenticated identity. PE and JH
     explained that GSSAPI provides an empty SSH user name since the
     server is expected to infer the user name from the credentials.
     After discussion, it was concluded that we can make the
     assumption to get a suitable user name from SSH.

     Further discussion centered around the mapping of the
     authenticated user name to a tmSecurityName. JO asked whether the
     differentiation should be done based on the protocols or by the
     credentials provided? DH explains that we deliberately decided to
     not pass up in the SNMP stack details how authentication has been
     performed or which credentials were used. PE suggests that there
     might be TM specific mappings and WH confirms that for DTLS,
     there should be a DTLS specific way to map a certificate into a
     user name.

     Finally, the tmSecurityName must be mapped to the SMNP
     securityName, either by a simple identity transform or a more
     complex mapping through a mapping table. DN asked whether it is
     sufficient to point out the issue? WH and JH explained that this
     approach might not work because network operators likely have no
     control over the names used in existing authentication and PKI
     infrastructures. So the problem needs to be dealt with.

   - Outgoing Messages:

     For outgoing messages, the SNMP securityName must be mapped to a
     tmSecurityName for a selected transport model and then the
     transport model must map it to security model specific identities
     and associated credentials.

     KN asks (similar to DN) whether we make up a problem here, adding
     complexity for some corner cases. JH responds by mentioning that
     he has a friend named Root who has lots of fun when he asks for a
     user name. Ignoring the problem is likely going to backfire.

     PE explains that in the case of outgoing notifications, the SSH
     transport mapping needs an internal mapping mechanism since the
     security name used by SNMP for access control might not
     necessarily be the user name used to establish the SSH session
     for transporting the notification. JH explains the SSH user name
     for notifications is actually the notification receiver's name
     for us, which likely is different from the SNMP securityName.
     One possible solution is to have <user@host> names in the
     SSH transport address.

   During the discussions, the following observations were made:

     a) Some transport mappings (TMs) _must_ provide TM specific
        mapping capabilities. For example, TLS/DTLS transports must
        deal with certificates and identities that do not fit into the
        securityName constraints.

     b) If we were to require mapping capabilites in all TMs, we might
        in theory not _need_ a mapping capability at the security
        model (SM) layer.

     c) However, even if all TMs do support a TM specific mapping
        capability, it might be more efficient in terms of
        configuration complexity to map at the SM layer instead of
        mapping at all TMs involved.

     d) We can assume that SSH provides to us a suitable user name
        that does not need a specific mapping. For SSH authentication
        mechanisms such as GSSAPI, we can assume that SSH internally
        maps into a user name that can be used outside of SSH.

     e) Ignoring naming conflicts (identical names used by different
        secure transports with different meanings) is not an option
        since operators can not be expected to have control over
        authentication infrastructures.

   The recent prefix mapping proposal posted by WH seems to be a
   reasonable compromise for a workable solution. The details need to
   be worked out on the mailing list since the ISMS meeting slot does
   not provide enough time for this.

3. Discussion of the RADIUS Draft

   JS presents some slides provided by DN, who could not attend the
   IETF in Dublin. The remaining open issues are editorial in nature
   and the next version of the document addressing these issues should
   be ready for WG last call.

4. Wrap Up

   It was agreed to have revised core ISMS documents in September
   resolving the open issues and going to WG last call. Any issues
   coming up during WG last call should be resolved in October so that
   the revised documents can go to the IESG in November.

--J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf
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From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,
	<isms@ietf.org>
References: <20080829134415.GA1084@elstar.local>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:25:15 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Isms] dublin isms meeting minutes
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I think the minutes look very good.
They will also be helpful to me in guiding my edits of the drafts.

dbh 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: isms-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:isms-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 9:44 AM
> To: isms@ietf.org
> Subject: [Isms] dublin isms meeting minutes
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am attaching the draft meeting minutes from Dublin. Please take a
> look and let me know if something has been recorded incorrectly.
> 
> I in particular like to draw your attention to the "observations" a)
-
> e) which try to summarize the constraints in which we work out the
> name mappings. For the gory details, simply listen to the audio
> recording (which is pretty decent and has been very helpful for
> producing these minutes).
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 

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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
To: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
Organization: Sparta
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	Hutzelman's message of "Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:05:36 -0400")
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>>>>> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:05:36 -0400, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> said:

>> We don't have an 8-character limit either. I don't know why we are
>> even talking about 8-character limits.

JH> Me either; it's Wes who keeps bringing them up.

It was an example of bad thinking from the past.  Sorry you
misinterpreted it as anything other than an example.

>> VACM limits us to 32 characters:
>> vacmSecurityName OBJECT-TYPE
>> SYNTAX       SnmpAdminString (SIZE(1..32))

JH> So, VACM has this limit, but the architecture doesn't impose a limit
JH> on the length of the securityName produced by the MPM?

The weakest link in the chain is the VACM, I think we agree on that.
The only important point is that because of the weakest link if we do
anything that produces names longer than 32 octets we've broken the
chain.  Regardless of what would be ideal, if we're not going to change
the VACM then we simply must accommodate it's needs or our results won't
be usable.  I think we're *all* in agreement on that so we can restrict
ourselves to just the solution space instead.

>> Is 255 (minus the SSH: prefix) large enough to satisy?

(So no, this won't work when you add in the full chain).

JH> I think it is probably OK to say that...

JH> - by default, the tmSecurityName produced by sshtm consists of the string
JH> "ssh:" followed by the SSH username
JH> - if the tmSecurityName would exceed 32 characters in length, then sshtm
JH> MUST instead generate some error/drop the request/whatever

I'm not convinced that's the most scalable long term solution (still),
*but* I can live with it at least so I'm all in favor of adopting it in
the interest of forward progress.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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Here are some notes about the SSH document as I've reviewed it.  It's
divided into pieces, with the technical issues first to separate them
from the simple wording edits that I thought were needed.


+ General Comments
  - This is also another extremely well written document and
    my hats off to the editors for doing such a good job in
    documenting everything that is needed.
+ Technical Issues
  - Section 3.1.2, paragraph startingc "The SSH Transport Model"
    * I'm not sure of the reasoning behind such strong
      wording to say that transport level protections
      offered to the packets "SHOULD NOT be exposed to the
      SSH Transport Model".  I'm not sure how this helps
      interoperability and I think some implementations may
      benefit from exposing that detail so they could
      provide a configuration system at the TM level.  I
      think MAY NOT would be more appropriate.
  - Section 3.1.3, DISCUSS in 2nd paragraph
    * The question is: is this paragraph needed.  I don't
      think it is.  I think it's beyond scope to discuss the
      details of how SSH needs to do it's authentication.  The
      first paragraph nicely states that we're relying on SSH
      authentication and the next 2 are really just examples
      of stuff that may or may not be used.  That being said,
      I don't mind if it stays either.  But to answer the
      DISCUSS: no I don't think it's needed.
  - Section 3.1.4: DISCUSS
    * I don't think we need to go into gory detail here
      either.  But *if* the gory detail is left in 3.1.3, then
      it's probably appropriate to add similar stuff here.
      Maybe one sentence of:
      + "The SSHTM expects that SSH is appropriately
        configured with currently acceptable encryption
        algorithms to support privacy levels needed to protect
        SNMPv3/SSHTM traffic."
  - Section 3.1.6: Subsystem naming
    * I have two concern over subsystem naming
      1. I think there could very well be real world
         user-configuration out there today that has "snmp" as
         a configured subsystem.  I'd suggest we pick a less
         likely to conflict name here.  Either "snmpv3" or
         "isms" comes to mind as less likely to be used in the
         real world.
      2. Re: DISCUSS: I do think we need two different
         subsystem names though.  For management stations that
         are running an agent, it's highly likely that they
         are also running a notification receiver and the ssh
         subsystem destination shouldn't be the same.  If we
         end up assigning SNMP-over-SSH specific ports for
         these services, then the susbsystem name really
         doesn't matter.  If, however, we end up reusing 22 we
         certainly need one ssh subsystem name for an agent
         ("commandresponder") and another for notifications
         ("notificationreceiver").  I doubt either of those
         two are in use today!
    * Note: IANA considerations needs to change too
    * Note: Step 7 of 5.3 would need to be changed too.  If
      nothing else, spelling out the exact subsystem name to
      use there would be good even if it doesn't change.
  - Uniquely Identifying Sessions
    * I don't think that the quadruple of addrType, Addr,
      securityName and securityLevel serve as a good unique
      identifier combination.  At least section 3.1.6
      specifies this as "unique".  It's certainly the case
      that the architecture may require this because the
      architecture doesn't have session pointers to pass
      around.  But I think that most real-world
      implementations may support more than one connection
      with identical values for these 4 variables.  I've
      certainly seen some that (if modified to support SSH)
      will end up with non-unique combinations.  This isn't a
      problem for the implementation as they're already
      passing around other references.  So there are two
      things here that fall out of this:
      + Should the text be modified to add "implementations
        MAY have an alternative implementation-dependent
        method of identifying SSHTM sessions"
        
    * Section 5.4: the closeSession() ASI won't actually work
      for similar stacks and only offers two identifiers for
      uniqueness when pointing at a session to close.
    * Section 7, sshtmLCDTable
      + If the table is kept (see list discussion) then I don't
        think the indexes are sufficiently unique for real-world
        implementations (see above).
  - Section 4.2: tmSecurityName
    * I'm not sure how pulling the SSH identity from the SSH
      layer is implementation dependent.  If two different
      implementations are expecting it to be pulled from two
      different portions of the packet then they won't
      interoperate at all!  Now, in reality I think they'll
      likely pick the same field.  But "by default,
      tmSecurityName is determined from the value of the
      user name field of the SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST
      message" isn't wise interoperable wording.  I'd say it
      *is* determined from that or else implementations that
      pick otherwise won't interoperate.
+ Wording Edits
  - Section 3.1.1, steps 1 and 2
    * The wording for bullets 1 and 2 and close together and
      somewhat confusing.  I'd suggest:
      1. Message Stream Modification - SSH provides for
         verification that messages sent have not been
         dropped or reordered during its transmission through
         the network.
      2. Information Modification - SSH provides for
         verification that the contents of each received
         message has not been modified.  Data within a message
         can not be altered without it being detected by SSH.
    * I'm not sure it's worth including "to an extent greater
      than can occur non-maliciously" since the application
      (the SNMPv3 stack in this case) won't see any
      modifications and in the worst case SSH would cause the
      session to terminate...  It won't know if it's malicious
      or not.
  - Section 3.1.1, steps 3 and 4
    * Steps 3 and 4 are also closely related and I'd either
      combine them or separate them into "client" and
      "server".  (note that 3411's definiton actually lists
      masquerading as protecting the server from clients, but
      I'd argue both are very important).  How about:
      3.  Server Masquerading - SSH provides verification of
          the identity of the SSH server through the SSH
          Transport Protocol server authentication [RFC4253].
      
      4.  Client Masquerading - SSH provides for verification
          of the identity of the SSH server.  Verification of
          principal identity is important for use with the
          SNMP access control subsystem, to ensure that only
          authorized principals have access to potentially
          sensitive data.  The SSH user identity is provided
          to the transport model, so it can be used to map to
          an SNMP model-independent securityName for use with
          SNMP access control and notification configuration.
          (The identity may undergo various transforms before
          it maps to the securityName.)
  - Section 3.1.2, paragraph starting "The SSH Transport Model"
    * Add a period after "were met" about in the middle of
      the paragraph.
  - Section 3.1.3 first paragraph; minor wording suggestion:
    * OLD: This includes the three authentication methods
      described in the SSH Authentication Protocol document
      [RFC4252] - publickey, password, and host-based - and
      keyboard interactive and others.
    * NEW: This includes the three authentication methods
      described in the SSH Authentication Protocol document
      [RFC4252] (publickey, password, and host-based) and
      keyboard interactive *as well as* others.
  - Section 3.3, first sentence:
    * What's the reason for limiting what types of
      applications can open a connection?  If SNMPv3 is
      extended in the future, they'll likely be able to open
      connections too...  That being said, if you want to
      leave it you need to at least add "proxy forwards" to
      the list of SNMPv3 application types that may open an
      SSH connections.
  - Section 4.2, 4th paragraph
    * tran*b*sform transform
  - Section 4.2 5th paragraph
    * I think using Layer 8 is funny, but I don't think it's
      probably the right wording for the document.  How about
      "intelligent being".
    * I'm not even sure what the benefit to this paragraph is
      within the document.  There is almost nothing in it that
      is SSH specific and it reads more like generic wording
      for the TM document.
  - Section 4.3, first paragraph
    * OLD: "at least architecturally, ..."
    * NEW: "at least in the defined SNMPv3 architecture, ..."
  - Section 5.2 maybe renumber bullets to help the "if" statements.
    * I'd be tempted to renumber the bullet numbers to help the
      if/then statements appear in a better decision tree
      using 2a instead of 3, eg.   It actually looks like a
      bit of work with rewording as well.  If you think it's
      fine as is, then leave it.  If you think I might be
      right, then I'll write something up (let me know). 
  - Section 5.3, second paragraph after openSession ASI
    * "This will" => "This may"
    * add to the end of the sentence: "assuming sufficient
      configuration exists to set up a connection".
  - Section 5.4, first paragraph after closeSession ASI:
    * extra space after "a client and server" before the "."
  - Section 5.4, steps
    * steps are 1, 3 and 4.  Renumber because 2 is MIA
    * Step 4: why is sshtmLCDPrincipal extracted?  I'd suggest
      removing it from the extraction list as it's unneeded.
  - Section 6.3, other MIBs
    * Add the TARGET-MIB?
  - Section 7, MIB, Co-editors
    * Extra spacing not needed between Josephy's company and address.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Sparta, Inc.
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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:35:08 -0400
From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
To: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>, ISMS WG <isms@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Isms] Notes on an SSH Document Review
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--On Friday, August 29, 2008 09:24:28 AM -0700 Wes Hardaker 
<wjhns1@hardakers.net> wrote:

\>   - Section 3.1.2, paragraph startingc "The SSH Transport Model"
>     * I'm not sure of the reasoning behind such strong
>       wording to say that transport level protections
>       offered to the packets "SHOULD NOT be exposed to the
>       SSH Transport Model".  I'm not sure how this helps
>       interoperability and I think some implementations may
>       benefit from exposing that detail so they could
>       provide a configuration system at the TM level.  I
>       think MAY NOT would be more appropriate.

I don't object to your intent, but I think the phrase MAY NOT should be 
avoided at all costs.  It is logically equivalent to MAY, but many people 
will read it as meaning the same thing as MUST NOT.  Let's just rewrite 
"SHOULD NOT be" as "are not" or even "normally are not".  In any case, I 
think the purpose of this text is not so much to promote interoperability 
but to prevent people down the line from second-guessing our decision to 
leave the details of SSH to SSH and not get SNMP involved in them.


>   - Section 3.1.3, DISCUSS in 2nd paragraph
>     * The question is: is this paragraph needed.  I don't
>       think it is.  I think it's beyond scope to discuss the
>       details of how SSH needs to do it's authentication.  The
>       first paragraph nicely states that we're relying on SSH
>       authentication and the next 2 are really just examples
>       of stuff that may or may not be used.  That being said,
>       I don't mind if it stays either.  But to answer the
>       DISCUSS: no I don't think it's needed.

Agree.  These paragraphs don't need to be here.

>   - Section 3.1.4: DISCUSS
>     * I don't think we need to go into gory detail here
>       either.

I don't think we need this section at all.  The SSH TM doesn't support or 
not support any particular SSH encryption or integrity methods.  SSH 
supports what it supports, and SSHTM supports SSH.  This is equivalent to 
an application that runs over TCP saying it supports PMTU discovery, slow 
start, fast recovery, and so on.  Those things are transparent to anything 
that runs above the layer boundary.

I'm almost inclined to say the same thing about section 3.1.3, but not 
quite.  The difference is that authentication methods _are_ visible above 
the layer boundary, because you have to provide credentials.  And so, the 
set of authentication methods that can be used with SSHTM is limited by the 
kinds of credentials it can provide.

>   - Section 3.1.6: Subsystem naming

>       2. Re: DISCUSS: I do think we need two different
>          subsystem names though.  For management stations that
>          are running an agent, it's highly likely that they
>          are also running a notification receiver and the ssh
>          subsystem destination shouldn't be the same.  If we
>          end up assigning SNMP-over-SSH specific ports for
>          these services, then the susbsystem name really
>          doesn't matter.  If, however, we end up reusing 22 we
>          certainly need one ssh subsystem name for an agent
>          ("commandresponder") and another for notifications
>          ("notificationreceiver").  I doubt either of those
>          two are in use today!

I'm not convinced we need separate subsystem names, but I also don't see 
any harm in having them.  But, let's remember that the namespace is 
universal and not specific to the context of SNMP.  "snmp-commandresponder" 
or even "snmp-command" is a fine subsystem name; "commandresponder" is too 
vague.

>   - Uniquely Identifying Sessions
>     * I don't think that the quadruple of addrType, Addr,
>       securityName and securityLevel serve as a good unique
>       identifier combination.  At least section 3.1.6
>       specifies this as "unique".  It's certainly the case
>       that the architecture may require this because the
>       architecture doesn't have session pointers to pass
>       around.  But I think that most real-world
>       implementations may support more than one connection
>       with identical values for these 4 variables.  I've
>       certainly seen some that (if modified to support SSH)
>       will end up with non-unique combinations.  This isn't a
>       problem for the implementation as they're already
>       passing around other references.  So there are two
>       things here that fall out of this:
>       + Should the text be modified to add "implementations
>         MAY have an alternative implementation-dependent
>         method of identifying SSHTM sessions"

I'm pretty sure we've been over this elsewhere, and that in fact sessions 
are uniquely identified by being distinct sessions, and not by looking up 
some combination of parameters in a table.  If you get two sessions, they 
have different handles or file descriptors or whatever, and for the purpose 
of directing outgoing responses (which AFAIK is the only reason we need to 
"identify" sessions), you need to remember which one you use.  We even 
provided a means for this, in the form of tmStateReference.

>     * Section 5.4: the closeSession() ASI won't actually work
>       for similar stacks and only offers two identifiers for
>       uniqueness when pointing at a session to close.

Why do we need this at all?  Isn't session management the TM's job?


>   - Section 4.2: tmSecurityName
>     * I'm not sure how pulling the SSH identity from the SSH
>       layer is implementation dependent.  If two different
>       implementations are expecting it to be pulled from two
>       different portions of the packet then they won't
>       interoperate at all!

No, it's not about pulling things from the packet.  You don't even get to 
_think_ about ssh packets.  But the means by which an SSH server passes 
username information to a subsystem is not specified; it is specific to the 
SSH implementation.

> But "by default,
>       tmSecurityName is determined from the value of the
>       user name field of the SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST
>       message" isn't wise interoperable wording.

To my mind, any reference in this document to SSH_MSG_* indicates a 
layering violation.  The details of the operation of the SSH protocol are 
below the abstraction level at which SSHTM gets to interface with SSH. 
Again, this is like talking about the details of TCP packets, payload 
lengths, etc.



> I'd say it
>       *is* determined from that or else implementations that
>       pick otherwise won't interoperate.

Of course it's determined from that.  SSH says so.  It's not up to us.


-- Jeff
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