Subject: [its] LTE video tests - does it work with a vehicle?

From: Alexandru Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:10:44 +0200

Hello participants to ITS email list,

Please allow me to ask whether some prototype testing was performed
whereby an LTE device was used onboard a vehicle?  I am planning for
such a test, but before setting everything up I need to make sure that
LTE works fine at speeds higher than just pedestrian?

Is it realistic to plan that a video over LTE onboard a car will work
ok?  Or would it be broken just as DVB (TNT) breaks when vehicle starts
to move, Doppler?

Is this with the 'high' band (B20 2.6GHz in France) or 'low' band (B6
800MHz band).

I am asking people with hands on experience and also people who may have
just attended LTE demo events in vehicular settings.

Alex

---

From: Rex Buddenberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:31:09 -0700

> LTE works fine at speeds higher than just pedestrian?

Alex, LTE (Long Term Evolution) is a TIA standards body.  The ink in the
standard is largely the same as that in IEEE 802.16.  The Phy parts
you're asking about certainly are the same.

And LTE = '4G' in the cellphone lingo.  Since 4G phones are readily
available (I have one in my pocket) you can be dead certain that they've
been tested ... especially since using one while driving is illegal in
this state;-).

What the cellphone companies do not see (just like the CATV companies a
DOCSIS generation ago) is that the LTE subscriber station may terminate
in a router in the vehicle, not an end system.  That makes no diff to
the questions you're asking but certainly enriches the usefulness field.

> _______________________________________________
> its mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 10:28:38 +0200

Hi Rex and Alex,
I have asked some colleagues with hands on experience here and they confirmed that video transmission to and from moving cars with LTE has been demonstrated although the data rate of course doesn't reach the peak (at 300 km/h and 2.6 GHz at least several Mbps) - and right, at 800 MHz due to less Doppler the performance is better. Using external antennas an LTE-connected router in the car thus can deliver e.g. HD infotainment to passengers in the backseat ;-)

It was also mentioned that even with DVB-T using proper coding and modulation beside diversity reception and improved channel quality estimation vehicular velocities > 100 km/h are supported.

Please see following links shamelessly advertising more information on live demos from LTE-Advanced project easy-c in 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBeT28Ygcho and a T-Mobile demo in 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJJ4llp9f4Y.

Best regards
Dirk

---

From: Alexandru Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:33:25 +0200

Dirk,

Thank you for the feedback.  It is encouraging to thus know that bidir
low latency video/audio call LTE is highly likely possible with
vehicles.  That's what I need to know and the shameless video at 1:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBeT28Ygcho is proof enough.

I can't quite get what kind of antenna is on top of that van but it
seems not very large.

Thanks!

Alex

Le 19/10/2012 10:28, [email-masked] a écrit :
> Hi Rex and Alex, I have asked some colleagues with hands on
> experience here and they confirmed that video transmission to and
> from moving cars with LTE has been demonstrated although the data
> rate of course doesn't reach the peak (at 300 km/h and 2.6 GHz at
> least several Mbps) - and right, at 800 MHz due to less Doppler the
> performance is better. Using external antennas an LTE-connected
> router in the car thus can deliver e.g. HD infotainment to
> passengers in the backseat ;-)
>
> It was also mentioned that even with DVB-T using proper coding and
> modulation beside diversity reception and improved channel quality
> estimation vehicular velocities > 100 km/h are supported.
>
> Please see following links shamelessly advertising more information
> on live demos from LTE-Advanced project easy-c in 2011
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBeT28Ygcho and a T-Mobile demo in
> 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJJ4llp9f4Y.
>
> Best regards Dirk
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]] Im Auftrag von Rex Buddenberg
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2012 21:31 An: Alexandru Petrescu
> Cc: [email-masked] Betreff: Re: [its] LTE video tests - does it work
> with a vehicle?
>
>> whereby an LTE device was used onboard a vehicle?  I am planning
>> for such a test, but before setting everything up I need to make
>> sure that LTE works fine at speeds higher than just pedestrian?
>
> Alex, LTE (Long Term Evolution) is a TIA standards body.  The ink in
> the standard is largely the same as that in IEEE 802.16.  The Phy
> parts you're asking about certainly are the same.
>
> available (I have one in my pocket) you can be dead certain that
> they've been tested ... especially since using one while driving is
> illegal in this state;-).
>
>
> What the cellphone companies do not see (just like the CATV
> companies a DOCSIS generation ago) is that the LTE subscriber station
> may terminate in a router in the vehicle, not an end system.  That
> makes no diff to the questions you're asking but certainly enriches
> the usefulness field.
>
>
>
>>
>> Is it realistic to plan that a video over LTE onboard a car will
>> work ok?  Or would it be broken just as DVB (TNT) breaks when
>> vehicle starts to move, Doppler?
>>
>> Is this with the 'high' band (B20 2.6GHz in France) or 'low' band
>> (B6 800MHz band).
>>
>> I am asking people with hands on experience and also people who
>> may have just attended LTE demo events in vehicular settings.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> _______________________________________________ its mailing list
>> [email-masked] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
>
>
> _______________________________________________ its mailing list
> [email-masked] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
>

---

From: Alexandru Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:54:07 +0200

Le 18/10/2012 21:31, Rex Buddenberg a écrit :
>> Please allow me to ask whether some prototype testing was
>> performed whereby an LTE device was used onboard a vehicle?  I am
>> planning for such a test, but before setting everything up I need
>> to make sure that LTE works fine at speeds higher than just
>> pedestrian?
>
> And LTE = '4G' in the cellphone lingo.

Well iPhone 5 calls it LTE not 4G but I suppose it's precisely the same
thing.

> Since 4G phones are readily available (I have one in my pocket) you
> can be dead certain that they've been tested ... especially since
> using one while driving is illegal in this state;-).

I agree, I am dead certain by that.  (but DVB "portable" devices are
dead certain on the market only to realize they're working only when the
car is stopped; things may have evolved since though).

> What the cellphone companies do not see (just like the CATV companies
> a DOCSIS generation ago) is that the LTE subscriber station may
> terminate in a router in the vehicle, not an end system.  That makes
> no diff to the questions you're asking but certainly enriches the
> usefulness field.

I fully agree.  An LTE operator rarely has a perspective of the end
device being actually a set of such devices deployed in a vehicle, and
a large number of those, needing to be queried.  The LTE hotspot devices
(the matchbox sized device with LTE and WiFi interfaces) are typically
NATs of IPv4.

I think few if any LTE operator does IPv6 let alone Prefix Delegation.

(in the shameless video at point 5:36 one may see a label printed with
what looks as an IPv4 dot notation).

And the applications for vehicles go far beyond just entertainment and
video call for office work - e.g. the remote query of vehicle data, or
'waking up' one's car preheating by SMS may require communication which
may not be supported by NAT. eCall application is voice call, not data,
and an "eData" may not work with NAT either.

Alex

>> I am asking people with hands on experience and also people who may
>> have just attended LTE demo events in vehicular settings.
>>
>> Alex
>>