From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jan 1 18:23:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078443A67FD; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:23:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B043A67FD for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.278, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7crZhRZzqxPu for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3546C3A6AEA for ; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:4382 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LIZgx-0000Zt-E7; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 18:23:22 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 03:17:02 +0100 To: iucg@ietf.org From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090102022335.3546C3A6AEA@core3.amsl.com> Cc: subbiah , tan tin Wee , Peter Dambier Subject: [iucg] practical strategy fir complex deployments. X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Thank you to consider the I_D project at: http://iucg.org/wiki/Practical_strategy_for_complex_deployments#Exemple_of_the_WG-IDNABIS jfc _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jan 15 17:14:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A7B3A681D; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD223A681D for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.363 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.363 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.236, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ki-+S1X0nIZy for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720033A63EC for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:3403 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LNdHd-0002E6-Jb for iucg@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:02 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:13:59 +0100 To: iucg@ietf.org From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090116011417.720033A63EC@core3.amsl.com> Subject: [iucg] full fledge IETF Non-WG Mailing list X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Dear lead users, this IUCG main mailing list is now listed as an IETF Non-WG mailing list on https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg. My target in initiating the IUCG project was to organize a IETF working environment for the Internet lead users: those who are interested in enhancing their Internet in their best interest, hence in the common interest. This working space of exchange now exists. There is still work ahead and a need of voluntaries to make it fully operational. But it starts being operational. The target is to permit everyone with a idea or a set of ideas to come and share it in his own language, discuss it and make it palatable enough for either the IETF to create a working group, or to start a user mailing list to propose it as a user contribution RFC, to be possibly FLOSS developed, and user tested. All the best jfc morfin IUCG Chair iucg@ietf.org facilitator. _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jan 15 17:14:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A373A63EC; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B308B3A68D5 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.38 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.38 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.219, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovOEtS1D05dH for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A583A63EC for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:3403 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LNdHe-0002E6-VZ for iucg@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:14:03 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:05:16 +0100 To: iucg@ietf.org From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090116011418.C9A583A63EC@core3.amsl.com> Subject: [iucg] drafts discussion X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org The way iucg is planned, we should proceed by themes and projects. Ideally we would need theme moderators for each theme (a topic, an area, a WG charter, etc.) and mailing facilitators when a dedicated thematic list would be of interest. Two first IETF Drafts have been proposed already that way: 1. there is a theme that some of discuss and document 2. a wiki page reports on the theme 3. a formated IWP (IUCG Wiki Page) is progressively build, that include the metadata and the text of a Draft. 4. the IPW is periodically used to present/update IETF Drafts Two first practical cases are: 1. the IETF precautionary principle - http://iucg.org/wiki/IETF_Precautionary_principle 2. A practical innovation and complex deployements strategy - http://iucg.org/w/index.php?title=Internet_Plus&action=edit&redlink=1 Your comments on these texts are welcome. Topics that some of you might want to discuss as they are of current/urgent interest are: - Semantic Addressing - IDv6 - GRIDv6 - IPv4 address scarcity - Virtual Root Support - DNS Security - NAT66 - the Internet PLUS usage architecture: * SNHN (small netwok, home network, standaloine hosts), smart interboxes. * local meshed networks * TC/IPP * IDv6 (IPv6 user ID) * ML-DNS (multilingual, multilateral, multiledger, etc.) DNS * GENENIC the documentation of a complete name/semantic addresse/referential registry TLD Manager system * Network Multilinguistic jfc _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jan 18 18:56:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE2B3A6B68; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:56:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E633A68B1 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.569, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Bd8ACWV19hT for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [208.109.78.112]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D8B4B3A68A4 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17304 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2009 02:46:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gem-wbe15.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net) (64.202.189.223) by smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net with SMTP; 19 Jan 2009 02:46:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 11414 invoked by uid 99); 19 Jan 2009 02:46:46 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 65.87.154.138 User-Agent: Web-Based Email 4.14.17 Message-Id: <20090118194646.437683a8bc8cbf65b58fd4b40ea76a1e.108ab5e437.wbe@email.secureserver.net> From: "Karl E. Peters" To: iucg@ietf.org Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:46:46 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [iucg] Welcome to the "iucg" mailing list] X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0740306425==" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org --===============0740306425== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Greetings to all assembled here,
       I have been honored to= join you by Jefsey recently and would like to very briefly introduce mysel= f. 
  My name is Karl E. Peters, president of th= e Top Level Domain Association, Inc.  I restarted that organization a = while back in anticipation of the many changes that may well call upon solu= tions we can ring to the table. I am not a technical person, by your standa= rds, but rather an organizer and motivator of people and an organizer of mo= vements. My primary responsibility among the diverse personalities that are= the TLDA, Inc. is to keep them working together without letting them get c= lose enough to fight. I trust you know how that works in an internet depend= ant organization of experts! 
    My principle reason for joining you= is to be available to interface between your work and that of the TLDA, In= c. and share with you what we are doing and how it also interfaces with you= r efforts. I also make myself available to assist in setting up struct= ures or drafting agreements or by-laws and to bring the technical people of= the TLDA to bear where appropriate, though I am not to be considered one o= f them in the pure sense of technical people.
    Feel free to contact me at any time via = this list or via e-mail at kpeters= @tldainc.org or telephone at (912) 638-1638 (USA) in GMT-5 time zone.
    Looking forward to positive contrib= ution!
Sincerely yours,
Karl E. Peters, President
Top Level Domain Association, Inc.
 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Welcome to the "iucg" m= ailing list
From: iucg-request@ietf.org
Date: Thu, January 15, 2009 6= :26 pm
To: kpeters@tldainc.org

Welcome to the iucg@ietf.org maili= ng list! Any submission to the IETF
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 --===============0740306425== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg --===============0740306425==-- From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jan 20 07:12:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186DC3A6BF4; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A433A6BF4 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:12:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bbGb8LvHreJ for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B843A6947 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:4450 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LPIGx-0004wP-E2; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:12:11 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:30:22 +0100 To: internet users contributing group ,iucg@ietf.org From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <20090118194646.437683a8bc8cbf65b58fd4b40ea76a1e.108ab5e437 .wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20090118194646.437683a8bc8cbf65b58fd4b40ea76a1e.108ab5e437.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090120151229.36B843A6947@core3.amsl.com> Subject: Re: [iucg] Welcome to the "iucg" mailing list] X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0589964350==" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org --===============0589964350== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_445057453==.ALT" --=====================_445057453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:46 19/01/2009, Karl E. Peters wrote: >Greetings to all assembled here, > I have been honored to join you by Jefsey recently and would > like to very briefly introduce myself. >My name is Karl E. Peters, president of the Top Level Domain >Association, Inc. I restarted that organization a while back in >anticipation of the many changes that may well call upon solutions >we can ring to the table. I am not a technical person, by your standards, :-) a technical person per our standard is someone who can send a mail and access our site ! The target is to permit everyone to discuss the Internet technology and then, together, to port it into a technical context/wording to try to attract the IETF geeks's attention. Or to build, try, and deploy some practical ideas among ourselves. This is what we name the Internet PLUS. >but rather an organizer and motivator of people and an organizer of >movements. My primary responsibility among the diverse personalities >that are the TLDA, Inc. is to keep them working together without >letting them get close enough to fight. I trust you know how that >works in an internet dependant organization of experts! Would you accept to become our Sargeant of Arms? >My principle reason for joining you is to be available to interface >between your work and that of the TLDA, Inc. and share with you what >we are doing and how it also interfaces with your efforts. I also >make myself available to assist in setting up structures or drafting >agreements or by-laws and to bring the technical people of the TLDA >to bear where appropriate, though I am not to be considered one of >them in the pure sense of technical people. The TLDA brings a big DNS users experience in an advanced context (virtual root). This is certainly a key exprience for the ML-DNS specs exploration and definition. All the best! jfc --=====================_445057453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 03:46 19/01/2009, Karl E. Peters wrote:
Greetings to all assembled here,
       I have been honored to join you by Jefsey recently and would like to very briefly introduce myself.
My name is Karl E. Peters, president of the Top Level Domain Association, Inc.  I restarted that organization a while back in anticipation of the many changes that may well call upon solutions we can ring to the table. I am not a technical person, by your standards,

:-) a technical person per our standard is someone who can send a mail and access our site !
The target is to permit everyone to discuss the Internet technology and then, together, to port it into a technical context/wording to try to attract the IETF geeks's attention. Or to build, try, and deploy some practical ideas among ourselves. This is what we name the Internet PLUS.

but rather an organizer and motivator of people and an organizer of movements. My primary responsibility among the diverse personalities that are the TLDA, Inc. is to keep them working together without letting them get close enough to fight. I trust you know how that works in an internet dependant organization of experts!

Would you accept to become our Sargeant of Arms?

My principle reason for joining you is to be available to interface between your work and that of the TLDA, Inc. and share with you what we are doing and how it also interfaces with your efforts. I also make myself available to assist in setting up structures or drafting agreements or by-laws and to bring the technical people of the TLDA to bear where appropriate, though I am not to be considered one of them in the pure sense of technical people.

The TLDA brings a big DNS users experience in an advanced context (virtual root). This is certainly a key exprience for the ML-DNS specs exploration and definition.

All the best!
jfc
--=====================_445057453==.ALT-- --===============0589964350== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg --===============0589964350==-- From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jan 20 10:14:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4143A63CB; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:14:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AEA3A686E for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:14:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.398 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZJqO7-92Dj8t for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from llwc767.servidoresdns.net (llwc767.servidoresdns.net [82.223.187.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D4E3A63CB for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Server01.aui.es (80.174.5.202.dyn.user.ono.com [80.174.5.202]) by llwc767.servidoresdns.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1815D644011 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:13:45 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20090120190257.04f5a5e0@82.223.187.99> X-Sender: aui_mps@82.223.187.99 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:13:29 +0100 To: internet users contributing group From: Miguel Perez Subias In-Reply-To: <20090120151229.36B843A6947@core3.amsl.com> References: <20090118194646.437683a8bc8cbf65b58fd4b40ea76a1e.108ab5e437.wbe@email.secureserver.net> <20090120151229.36B843A6947@core3.amsl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [iucg] userslikeme initiative X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0079273897==" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org --===============0079273897== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1636843==.ALT" --=====================_1636843==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, My name uis Miguel Perez Subias I =B4m president for the spanish users=20 internet association www.aui.es We are working in Spain for a initiative called "Users Like Me=20 (UsuariosComoYO)" the idea is people heping people to solve technological=20 problems (legal, technical, .....) (Our inspiratios came from:=20 http://www.patientslikeme.com/ ) The project is just at the begining but we can adapt this project to=20 incorporate your ideas, sugestions, .... Regards Miguel P=E9rez Sub=EDas President Spanish Internet Users Association - www.AUI.es ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- --- Skype: miguel.perez.subias - Mobil: +34 609 03 22 87 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- ----------------------- AUI Information=20 -------------------------------------------- -- 17th May, internetday, enjoy it -- =A1=A1 the world in a click !! http://internetday.info -- World Telecommunication and Information Society Day ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- =20 --=====================_1636843==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all,

My name uis Miguel Perez Subias I =B4m  president for the spanish users internet association www.aui.es

We are working in Spain for a initiative called "Users Like Me (UsuariosComoYO)" the idea is people heping people to solve technological problems (legal, technical, .....) (Our inspiratios came from: http://www.patientslikeme.com/ )

The project is just at the begining but we can adapt this project to incorporate your ideas, sugestions, ....

Regards

Miguel P=E9rez Sub=EDas
President
Spanish Internet Users Association  - www.AUI.es
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
--- Skype: miguel.perez.subias - Mobil: +34 609 03 22 87  --
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------

----------------------- AUI  Information --------------------------------------------
--      &n= bsp;      17th May, internetday, enjoy it
--   =A1=A1 the world in a click !!  http://internetday.i= nfo
--   World Telecommunication= and Information Society Day
-----------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------- --=====================_1636843==.ALT-- --===============0079273897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg --===============0079273897==-- From iucg-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 2 11:38:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-iucg-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A55F28C137; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757A328C172 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.170, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s8w36IBNAFGB; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B41628C137; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:4798 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LU4ci-0001tU-M8; Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:38:30 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:38:28 +0100 To: internet users contributing group From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <20090118194646.437683a8bc8cbf65b58fd4b40ea76a1e.108ab5e437 .wbe@email.secureserver.net> References: <20090118194646.437683a8bc8cbf65b58fd4b40ea76a1e.108ab5e437.wbe@email.secureserver.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090202193850.4B41628C137@core3.amsl.com> Cc: iab-chair@ietf.org, housley@vigilsec.com Subject: [iucg] Further to the IAB response to my appeal we are all set X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1904734863==" Sender: iucg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: iucg-bounces@ietf.org --===============1904734863== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_379154156==.ALT" --=====================_379154156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear lead users, You have now read the response from Olaf Kolman, IAB Chair, to my appeal. This response seemed surprising at first and even upsetting. This is why before commenting on it I asked for an explanation from Olaf Kolkman, the IAB Chair, and then tried to best understand his respective thinking. It turns out that his answer is rather fruitful. I summarized this in the IUCG Organization part (http://iucg.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_IUCG): - as a response to a FAQ http://iucg.org/wiki/IUCG_-_FAQ (you may guess I was asked :-)) - as part of the IUCG young history and positioning http://iucg.org/wiki/IUCG:_internal_IETF_relations_and_external_liaisons Basically, we obtained through this appeal process the formal guidance that we needed from the IETF. The IUC, : 1. is an IETF non-WG mailing list, which is to help users interface the IETF ways. 2. it should relate with the IAB, on a matter per matter basis. 3. is to show that its contributions are useful and adequately presented. A simple mnemonic could help us. The scope of: - IRTF is the future - IESG is standard and document management - IAB is global coherence - IUCG is present (along with the coming) lead usages. Now we have to document our working methods and tune our Charter to this more challenging scope. When considering a consolidated architectural dialog the main challenge that we all obviously face is the emegence of the "Intersem" (Multilingual and Semantic Internet of thoughts). Therefore, since we are stabilized now, we will progressively aggregate the MLTF with the IUCG, the IUCG focusing on the Internet PLUS perspective, and the MLTF on the Intersem. Since we have at least five priorities (IDv6, a copyrights support doctrine through TCP/IPP, an alternative to DNSSEC, semantic addressing and other domain name industry needs via the French RFP) I propose you we start to really bite into these issues, and delay the Charter/Methodology subject by three months. They will give us some experience about ourselves. I am focussing myself this week on the questions set to French Government over the '.fr' RFP. All the best. jfcm --=====================_379154156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear lead users,
You have now read the response from Olaf Kolman, IAB Chair, to my appeal.

This response seemed surprising at first and even upsetting. This is why before commenting on it I asked for an explanation from Olaf Kolkman, the IAB Chair, and then tried to best understand his respective thinking. It turns out that his answer is rather fruitful.

I summarized this in the IUCG Organization part ( http://iucg.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_IUCG):
- as a response to a FAQ http://iucg.org/wiki/IUCG_-_FAQ (you may guess I was asked :-))
- as part of the IUCG young history and positioning http://iucg.org/wiki/IUCG:_internal_IETF_relations_and_external_liaisons

Basically, we obtained through this appeal process the formal guidance that we needed from the IETF. The IUC, :
1. is an IETF non-WG mailing list, which is to help users interface the IETF ways.
2. it should relate with the IAB, on a matter per matter basis.
3. is to show that its contributions are useful and adequately presented.

A simple mnemonic could help us. The scope of:
- IRTF is the future
- IESG is standard and document management
- IAB is global coherence
- IUCG is present (along with the coming) lead usages.

Now we have to document our working methods and tune our Charter to this more challenging scope. When considering a consolidated architectural dialog the main challenge that we all obviously face is the emegence of the "Intersem" (Multilingual and Semantic Internet of thoughts). Therefore, since we are stabilized now, we will progressively aggregate the MLTF with the IUCG, the IUCG focusing on the Internet PLUS perspective, and the MLTF on the Intersem.

Since we have at least five priorities (IDv6, a copyrights support doctrine through TCP/IPP, an alternative to DNSSEC, semantic addressing and other domain name industry needs via the French RFP)  I propose you we start to really bite into these issues, and delay the Charter/Methodology subject by three months. They will give us some experience about ourselves.

I am focussing myself this week on the questions set to French Government over the '.fr' RFP.
All the best.
jfcm --=====================_379154156==.ALT-- --===============1904734863== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg --===============1904734863==-- From jefsey@jefsey.com Sat Feb 7 08:58:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0239C3A6CB0 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 2009 08:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pIaYv7oyd32U for ; Sat, 7 Feb 2009 08:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EE13A6A3E for ; Sat, 7 Feb 2009 08:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:1834 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LVqSj-00082I-LD; Sat, 07 Feb 2009 08:55:27 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:55:26 +0100 To: Vint Cerf ,Mark Davis , John C Klensin , "Harald Alvestrand" From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <20090129154501.EF45639E27E@eikenes.alvestrand.no> References: <20090126135026.GC26705@shinkuro.com> <533B41FBC179E62305EACC78@192.168.1.118> <99DD1066CF097926A5B203D8@192.168.1.118> <9350D2C17CB059413C0E7637@192.168.1.118> <30b660a20901281212o5a88627ah2519f84c916f0f91@mail.gmail.com> <20090129154501.EF45639E27E@eikenes.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_196274953==.ALT" X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090207165844.80EE13A6A3E@core3.amsl.com> Cc: idna-update@alvestrand.no, listegenerale@franceatlarge.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: [iucg] the position france@large takes X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 16:58:46 -0000 --=====================_196274953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Unfortunately, our deadline has been reached in total silence on the usually active WG/IDNABIS mailing list. The framework of our document is, therefore, settled. I still might influence some content with contributions that I receive during this present business day. FYI, we pose several questions to the Government about the multilingualization as expected by the people and interoperability with the internationalization as proposed by the IETF. We underline the need for their interoperability when possible. We pose the question of paralleling the internationalization effort with a multilingualization R&D and deployment, in turn making internationalized domain namessupported by a multilingual presentation layer that could be emulated through either applications, classes, extensions of TCP/IP, etc. or new propositions. We also ask who will be in charge of the necessary Internet polynym (name of the same invariant concept in every language) terminology that multilinguistic propositions call for within documentation, relations, contracts, and support. This goes along with our consideration of: * the European Charter of Minority Languages and the need to support (1) the various ( Languages in France?) (2) the other languages of the European community and of its immigration, which calls for European co-operation. * the French Constitution art. 75-1, which states that regional languages are a part of the French patrimony. * the needs of the French/European e-commerce exportation, at least for the French territorial zone, to be supported by a TLD in every ISO 3166 listed language. * Intersem semiotic strata R&D advocacy. * our question for national security reasons, vital/critical installations' protection, legal root operations' log archiving, privacy and intelligence protection, DNSSEC, the people's trust, etc., of the implementation of a national duplicate of the root system and of a European virtual root file. jfc At 15:51 29/01/2009, JFC Morfin wrote: >At 21:12 28/01/2009, Mark Davis wrote: >>But mappings like lowercase, fullwidth, etc are different. > >Unless we make it completely clear that IDNA2008 is a temporary >Internet Degraded Name Arbitration that temporarily blocks mapping >for security reasons during the transition to a DNS.2, which will >fully support every typography. As users, we certainly oppose this >entirely, but we also have to be pragmatic. If these degraded names >are what our WG can propose in the present DNS context, a sound, >reduced proposition is better than a flawed solution. > >At this stage, IMHO we should only target what Occam and the IETF LC >may agree on. I would like to explain something to you further. > > > At this time the French Gov has issued an RFP for the replacement > of AFNIC as the ".fr" Manager. france@large will answer that RFP. > As part of the procedure, candidates can pose clarification > questions that the Government will in turn have to answer. > IDNA20008 should have been completed by now. Therefore, we (should > have asked questions concerning "Internationalization" within the > IDNA2008 framework. > >IDNA2008 is not completed yet. Therefore, our own IDNA interoperable >architecture perspective could also not have been finalized. We are, >therefore, going to pose our questions with rather little IETF, IAB, >or architectural background about the "Intersem" (Multilingual and >Semantic Internet" related issues. These questions will come from >French users, consumers, corporations, organizations, representatives, etc.. >By way of consequence, Government responses (or lack of) will affect >the whole francophonie and create a de facto international position, >since ".fr" refrained in the past from developing a solely >Anglo-Saxon typography, which the Government would like to see come to an end. > >Stephane Bortzmeyer from AFNIC did a good job here. He pointed out >some of the problems that we are facing, but showed reasonably low >pressure so as to not delay the respective problem solving (the >solutions to the discussed mapping cases are good hints for some of >our problems). Furthermore, we (users) cooperated in not objecting >to what we consider as a clear disrespecting of the Charter and of >the responsibility, competence (RFC 3935), and precautionary (cf. my >own >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iucg-precaution-00.txt) >principle. This was because we fully realized that IDNA cannot, and >does not intent to, bring much more than IDNA2003. and not what we >consider everyone expect (cf. WSIS, IGF, UNESCO, etc positions). >James Seng and the Chair have been very honnest about it. > >However, the time has come. AFNIC has not been able to deploy the >proper support needed for the French typography as of yet, this >being the present case 31 years after the French international >datacommunications services were opened. Therefore, I presume that >the questions that I will have to list along with the responses that >I will thereby obtain (either directly or indirectly) will be >politically based upon the (1) best QoS for the users (2) >precautionary principle in a global context (3) imaginative >architectural alternatives (4) support of the Semantic Addressing, >in which we were delaying our proposition in order to be certain >that it will be IDNA interoperable. > >One question set will necessarily concern the kind of international >consensus that will support the French Gov responses that we will >publicly receive. > >Every suggestion that you could make would be _very_ welcome. The >deadline for us is February 7. >Concerning interoperability, I will certainly quote, in appendix to >my questions, this present mail, along with whatever response and >Chair statement that I receive. Obviously the RFP, my questions, and >the responses received will all be in the French language. > >jfc > > >_______________________________________________ >Idna-update mailing list >Idna-update@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update --=====================_196274953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Unfortunately, our deadline has been reached in total silence on the usually active WG/IDNABIS mailing list. The framework of our document is, therefore, settled. I still might influence some content with contributions that I receive during this present business day.

FYI, we pose several questions to the Government about the multilingualization as expected by the people and interoperability with the internationalization as proposed by the IETF. We underline the need for their interoperability when possible. We pose the question of paralleling the internationalization effort with a multilingualization R&D and deployment, in turn making internationalized domain namessupported by a multilingual presentation layer that could be emulated through either applications, classes, extensions of TCP/IP, etc. or new propositions.

We also ask who will be in charge of the necessary Internet polynym (name of the same invariant concept in every language) terminology that multilinguistic propositions call for within documentation, relations, contracts, and support.

This goes along with our consideration of:
* the European Charter of Minority Languages and the need to support (1) the various ( Languages in France?) (2) the other languages of the European  community and of its immigration, which calls for European co-operation.
* the French Constitution art. 75-1, which states that regional languages are a part of the French patrimony.
* the needs of the French/European e-commerce exportation, at least for the French territorial zone, to be supported by a TLD in every ISO 3166 listed language.
* Intersem semiotic strata R&D advocacy.
* our question for national security reasons, vital/critical installations' protection, legal root operations' log archiving, privacy and intelligence protection, DNSSEC, the people's trust, etc., of the implementation of a national duplicate of the root system and of a European virtual root file.
jfc

At 15:51 29/01/2009, JFC Morfin wrote:

At 21:12 28/01/2009, Mark Davis wrote:
But mappings like lowercase, fullwidth, etc are different.

Unless we make it completely clear that IDNA2008 is a temporary Internet Degraded Name Arbitration that temporarily blocks mapping for security reasons during the transition to a DNS.2, which will fully support every typography. As users, we certainly oppose this entirely, but we also have to be pragmatic. If these degraded names are what our WG can propose in the present DNS context, a sound, reduced proposition is better than a flawed solution.

At this stage, IMHO we should only target what Occam and the IETF LC may agree on. I would like to explain something to you further.


 At this time the French Gov has issued an RFP for the replacement of AFNIC as the ".fr" Manager. france@large will answer that RFP. As part of the procedure, candidates can pose clarification questions that the Government will in turn have to answer. IDNA20008 should have been completed by now. Therefore, we (should have asked questions concerning "Internationalization" within the IDNA2008 framework.

IDNA2008 is not completed yet. Therefore, our own IDNA interoperable architecture perspective could also not have been finalized. We are, therefore, going to pose our questions with rather little IETF, IAB, or architectural background about the "Intersem" (Multilingual and Semantic Internet" related issues. These questions will come from French users, consumers, corporations, organizations, representatives, etc..
By way of consequence, Government responses (or lack of) will affect the whole francophonie and create a de facto international position, since ".fr" refrained in the past from developing a solely Anglo-Saxon typography, which the Government would like to see come to an end.

Stephane Bortzmeyer from AFNIC did a good job here. He pointed out some of the problems that we are facing, but showed reasonably low pressure so as to not delay the respective problem solving (the solutions to the discussed mapping cases are good hints for some of our problems). Furthermore, we (users) cooperated in not objecting to what we consider as a clear disrespecting of the Charter and of the responsibility, competence (RFC 3935), and precautionary (cf. my own http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iucg-precaution-00.txt) principle. This was because we fully realized that IDNA cannot, and does not intent to, bring much more than IDNA2003. and not what we consider everyone expect (cf. WSIS, IGF, UNESCO, etc positions). James Seng and the Chair have been very honnest about it.

However, the time has come. AFNIC has not been able to deploy the proper support needed for the French typography as of yet, this being the present case 31 years after the French international datacommunications services were opened. Therefore, I presume that the questions that I will have to list along with the responses that I will thereby obtain (either directly or indirectly) will be politically based upon the (1) best QoS for the users (2) precautionary principle in a global context (3) imaginative architectural alternatives (4) support of the Semantic Addressing, in which we were delaying our proposition in order to be certain that it will be IDNA interoperable.

One question set will necessarily concern the kind of international consensus that will support the French Gov responses that we will publicly receive.

Every suggestion that you could make would be _very_ welcome. The deadline for us is February 7.
Concerning interoperability, I will certainly quote, in appendix to my questions, this present mail, along with whatever response and Chair statement that I receive. Obviously the RFP, my questions, and the responses received will all be in the French language.

jfc


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Idna-update@alvestrand.no
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--=====================_196274953==.ALT-- From jefsey@jefsey.com Tue Feb 10 08:47:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74D63A6844 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:47:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.145 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.145 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.147, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jk+jCU+ZL7Mj for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726423A69F0 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:1308 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LWvlM-0005QY-2J; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:47:09 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:47:14 +0100 To: Vint Cerf ,Mark Davis , John C Klensin , "Harald Alvestrand" From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <20090207165846.70B8339E27E@eikenes.alvestrand.no> References: <20090126135026.GC26705@shinkuro.com> <533B41FBC179E62305EACC78@192.168.1.118> <99DD1066CF097926A5B203D8@192.168.1.118> <9350D2C17CB059413C0E7637@192.168.1.118> <30b660a20901281212o5a88627ah2519f84c916f0f91@mail.gmail.com> <20090129154501.EF45639E27E@eikenes.alvestrand.no> <20090207165846.70B8339E27E@eikenes.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7045062==.ALT" X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090210164715.726423A69F0@core3.amsl.com> Cc: listegenerale@franceatlarge.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] the position france@large has taken X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:47:16 -0000 --=====================_7045062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For the information of those having some French, it gives a good review of the general ccTLD environment., including cultural aspects, even in the roman area. The specific document I submited is at http://franceatlarge.org/wiki/QFR. I recall that it is a documented questionnaire that the Government is legally obliged to answer. Our target is to obtain either committed responses from a Government, of which the law is clear and advanced, or "no response"s which would indicate that users and market can proceed independently. Obviously, this document is not IDNA oriented only, but multilinguistic aspects are central in that they also call for a multilateral vision of the digital ecosystem's communications that every other matters should benefit from. Best. jfc Questions au Ministère de l'Economie, de l'Industrie et l'Emploi concernant l'adminance de ".fr" ---------- Appel à candidature en vue de la désignation par le Ministre de l'Economie, de l'Industrie et de l'Emploi de l'Office d'Enregistrement du domaine internet ".fr". Ministère de l'économie, de l'industrie et de l'emploi Direction générale de la compétitivité, de l'industrie et des services DGCIS/STSI/SDRMCL 12, rue Villiot 75572 PARIS CEDEX 12 Documents de référence : * Le texte de l'appel à candidature * Le communiqué de presse du 15 janvier 2009 * La consultation d'avril 2008 * Détail et Synthèse des contributions * 20090127 - Mail france@large Réponse france@large à l'appel à candidature pour ".fr" * 20090127 - Mail WG/IDNABIS * CPCE - L 45 + R 20-44-34 à R 20-44-51 * QFR Questionnaire pour ".fr" --=====================_7045062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For the information of those having some French,  it gives a good review of the general ccTLD environment., including cultural aspects, even in the roman area.

The specific document I submited is at http://franceatlarge.org/wiki/QFR.  I recall that it is a documented questionnaire that the Government is legally obliged to answer. Our target is to obtain either committed responses from a Government, of which the law is clear and advanced, or "no response"s which would indicate that users and market  can proceed independently.

Obviously, this document is not IDNA oriented only, but multilinguistic aspects are central in that they also call for a multilateral vision of the digital ecosystem's communications that every other matters should benefit from.
Best.
jfc

Questions au Ministère de l'Economie, de l'Industrie et l'Emploi concernant l'adminance de ".fr"

Appel à candidature en vue de la désignation par le Ministre de l'Economie, de l'Industrie et de l'Emploi de l'Office d'Enregistrement du domaine internet ".fr".
Ministère de l'économie, de l'industrie et de l'emploi
Direction générale de la compétitivité, de l'industrie et des services
DGCIS/STSI/SDRMCL
12, rue Villiot
75572 PARIS CEDEX 12
Documents de référence : --=====================_7045062==.ALT-- From jefsey@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 16:29:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61783A6A5C for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cwAX5vpw5mlx for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f20.google.com (mail-fx0-f20.google.com [209.85.220.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D7E3A6A00 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13so4098148fxm.13 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:29:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Kl3ILnR2U8SC7Wsl3K3ZAE1qh3iEBx+SCJnqL9tn6NY=; b=gEwcJ11F7v8xdBgOhcJWXST/9oKV/gb4k821iVXOu8UqurG1Athe6Huw0RP97ay8QS Q1ywc5yvNWfFow2YdeJoALEHuliLfaC353NXCWhvoeJ4fFdM/YVSSPAQOmBgF/dLf3yc kHPigxn4elwScoRIwmKvUnvvSHckdtkkDCHWU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AXT2JhcO+n/7hsWcksBkJsUGYvuo+ns/H2tDuUN2qixuIiRlm6NPMNRpqcKgrM7C1H oYrTD/E8/uWKUy1ve+a8vON8294Qxm7d69q6QHhMGNHfpeIxxRtHStERDMtzGcif85dq 8B4p/wTY+TH4GAzqHPKk8LqZ1Aqo7pgCwocOw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jefsey@gmail.com Received: by 10.223.107.68 with SMTP id a4mr3806688fap.104.1234571381458; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:29:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:29:41 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: aab1ff7849bcde1d Message-ID: <1f9674ed0902131629p270bb6eeped42f79cafc980ea@mail.gmail.com> From: JFC Morfin To: iucg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com Subject: [iucg] A British security assessment of TCP X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:41:47 -0000 http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/tn-03-09-security-assessment-TCP.pdf An interesting document to serve for a TCP/IPP definition as a special usage of TCP/IPv6 for internef relations. jfc From paul.guermonprez@googlemail.com Thu Feb 19 06:29:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C8628C108 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:29:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.123 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.123 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7Oc3Qi0Iw85 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4ED3A6830 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id l26so943535fgb.41 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:29:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T33yop0YJs08KqxGczxD7sCv2cbwqQjZeC9GGAj1sLk=; b=w/3OnOUOLgXJs58/jxXIAvpr+3zRqMngZHoXIRkIqzX3aswBXuqKxWMWYMOg/+i7cS 4nPXlU5wKSLI6EiMF1BqQP5O23Z7o0mQm5EWqQ7DU870xfpdvOTVomW5w7D+PafE+LX4 vtX+fHhzVk9JT0EpubiC/4QJIdOMJRJU81pP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=wJg7w7arup8JRNQn2DxYliVJq3vZxYeLIdseJ6z2nVoqm8TRubvA88+mHjUejcnQnp B7NCm6bN1lPmJB6ilASooDnDKgkvg5VQRs3G8bAe0z7nctN2HoINSdKwesI9/UJ4h4DA mX+ZcdodhqP5hyOshtEaWoMgMFb1Q8bsPgtLM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: paul.guermonprez@googlemail.com Received: by 10.86.29.8 with SMTP id c8mr352041fgc.19.1235053793589; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:29:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <72.34.52.22.1235052570.12782@mx0.ovh.net> References: <72.34.52.22.1235052570.12782@mx0.ovh.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:29:53 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4e58de5ff21d2b0e Message-ID: <74d4a1e10902190629k56961162meb310132244556a6@mail.gmail.com> From: Paul Guermonprez To: info@fgi-fr.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:07:02 -0800 Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com, diffusion@fgi-fr.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] =?iso-8859-1?q?quels_noms_de_domaine_accentu=E9s_voulons-n?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ous_=3F?= X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:30:55 -0000 bonjour, je dirais (dans un mail sans accents) : 1. concernant l'etendue es accentuations acceptees : si on saute le pas de noms de domaines accentues, autant aller jusqu'a l'utf-8 sans limitations qui semble repondre a beaucoup de langues. c'est le cas par exemple pour les noms de fichiers modernes. 2. pour ce qui est de considerer si ecole.fr doit etre un ou plusieurs : Je pense que le DNS doit pouvoir permettre des entrees multiple techniquement mais arbitrer pour eviter le squatting de noms proches non/mal accentues. Il faut pouvoir permettre le cas ou des noms identiques hors accentuation auraient une bonne raison d'avoir deux noms de domaines distincts. Oui ca va augmenter le squatting, mais les moteurs de recherches sont la pour ca. 3. en pratique : Ensuite lorsqu'un internaute tapera ecole.fr, c'est son browser (ou une recherche lors de la frappe chez google/...) qui fera la correction automatique comme c'est deja le cas pour l'ajout des extensions. il tapera donc "ecole" pour arriver sur "=E9cole.fr" ou sur une liste de choix. Les logiciels serveurs utiliseront donc une egalite parfaite pour identifier des noms de domaine. Les humains utilisent deja des moteurs de recherches qui donnent plusieurs resultats, le tout dans un contexte. Il faudra par contre que ces recherches prennent mieux en compte les accentuations. avis personnel, cordialement, paul. 2009/2/19 Secretariat AFGI : > Chers Membres de la Gouvernance fran=E7aise de l'Internet, > La discussion au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version > des RFC sur les noms de domaine souligne un besoin fran=E7ais sur > lequel il est n=E9cessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des > utilisateurs, et des =E9lus qui les repr=E9sentent et sont soucieux de la > d=E9fense de la langue fran=E7aise. > > De fa=E7on concr=E8te il nous faut d=E9cider que "=E9cole.fr", "ecole.fr"= , > "Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois noms de > domaine diff=E9rents. Ceci r=E9sulte de ce que "e", "=E9", "=E8", "=EA", = "=EB" > ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et not=E9es "E", et de > ce que cette pratique est accept=E9e par la grammaire fran=E7aise et > utilis=E9e (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas. > > Ou encore : "marie.fr", "mari=E9.fr, "Marie.fr" > > De m=EAme, pour "o=F9", "ou" et "OU", "a", "=E0", et "A", etc. "cire" et > "cir=E9", "naufrage", "naufrag=E9" > > Le fran=E7ais au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant document=E9 que par > france@large. La position de france@large est de consid=E9rer les > signes visibles sans aucune =E9quivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le > protocole - pour (1) respecter le g=E9nie des langues (2) se pr=E9munir > contre le phishing [d=E9ception des utilisateurs jouant sur la > similitude graphique des symboles/caract=E8res] (3) par comparaison du > droit des marques. > > Commentaires bienvenus. > Secr=E9tariat > Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet fran=E7ais. > http://fr-fgi.fr > > > > _______________________________________________ > diffusion mailing list > diffusion@fgi-fr.org > http://fgi-fr.org/mailman/listinfo/diffusion_fgi-fr.org > From francois@edemay.com Thu Feb 19 22:30:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBCD3A672F for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.624 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_54=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NoUCwzq2u2Ns for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f161.google.com (mail-bw0-f161.google.com [209.85.218.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A22D3A68F7 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so2104064bwz.13 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:30:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.181.5.1 with SMTP id h1mr165202bki.56.1235111449311; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:30:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20090219141522.2CD33171420@mx1.tech.numericable.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:30:49 +0100 Message-ID: From: Francois Demay To: comptoir@cafedu.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5ad4d31b9b9046353cb32 Cc: info@fgi-fr.org, diffusion@fgi-fr.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5Bcomptoir_115=5D_Re=3A_quels_noms_de_doma?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ine_accentu=E9s_voulons-nous_=3F?= X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:30:41 -0000 --001636c5ad4d31b9b9046353cb32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sans oublier nos amis anglo-saxons... Voici la liste des entr=E9es-vedettes (lettres A et B) de l'Oxford English Dictionary (OED) comportant un "e" accent aigu ("=E9") *OED* abb=E9 abonn=E9 actualit=E9, n. Ad=E9lie adoss=E9e, ppl. a. advis=E9= , advisee, ppl. a. affair=E9, a. agr=E9ment aide-m=E9moire a=EEn=E9, a. Alfv=E9n = aligot=E9 =E2me damn=E9e ancien r=E9gime anim=E9, n. anim=E9, a. apert=E9 appaum=E9, p= pl. a. appellation contr=F4l=E9e appliqu=E9, n. appoint=E9, a. araign=E9e arri=E8re-pens= =E9e assembl=E9e attach=E9 attach=E9 case au d=E9sespoir au grand s=E9rieux, advb. phr. = au s=E9rieux, advb. phr. auto-da-f=E9, -de-f=E9 avodir=E9 avou=E9 balanc= =E9 bal costum=E9 ballonn=E9 ballott=E9 bal masqu=E9 bar=E9ge barn=E9 b=E2ton= n=E9 Baum=E9 B=E9arnaise beaut=E9 du diable b=E9b=E9 b=E9guin b=E9nitier beurr=E9 = billet=E9, -ett=E9, -etty blas=E9, a. blous=E9e, a. bois br=FBl=E9 bomb=E9, a. born=E9, a.= boton=E9, -=E9e, -y bouch=E9es, n. pl. boucl=E9, a. bourdonn=E9e, a. bourr=E9e b= outs-rim=E9s, n. pl. bretess=E9, bretessee, bretessy bris=E9 broch=E9, a. on pourrait faire la m=EAme recherche avec les autres signes diacritiques fran=E7ais (ou autres) et avec d'autres ouvrages anglosaxons: voir par exemple http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup+de+theatre Pour une vue g=E9n=E9rale sur les syst=E8mes d'=E9critures consulter http://www.geonames.de/alphce.html Tr=E8s cordialement Fran=E7ois Demay Le 19 f=E9vrier 2009 15:38, JY Gresser a =E9crit : > Les accents etc. ayant un caract=E8re discriminant en franc,ais, il faut,= =E0 > mon avis pr=E9server cette caract=E9ristique : Marie et mari=E9 ce n'est = pas la > m=EAme chose. > En ce qui concerne les majuscules, il s'agit plus d'un probl=E8me de grap= hie > (ou de pr=E9sentation par certains logiciels) que de codage. En franc,ais= les > majuscules peuvent =EAtre accentu=E9es et il existe un c=E9 c=E9dille. > Je pense que la position n'a pas =E0 =EAtre sp=E9cifiquement franc,aise m= ais > partag=E9e par nos amis scandinaves, tch=E8ques, polonais, roumains (vive= le t=E9 > c=E9dille!), irlandais etc. > Bien cordialement, > > JYG > > + 33 (0) 1 45 08 09 92 (Paris, France) > + 33 (0) 6 17 52 10 93 (portable/mobile, France) > jgresser@noos.fr > > ------------------------------ > Ce message est prot=E9g=E9 par les r=E8gles relatives au secret des > correspondances ; il peut en outre contenir des informations =E0 caract= =E8re > confidentiel ou prot=E9g=E9es par diff=E9rentes r=E8gles et notamment le = secret des > affaires ; il est =E9tabli =E0 destination exclusive de son ou de ses > destinataire(s). Toute divulgation, utilisation, diffusion ou reproductio= n > (totale ou partielle) de ce message, ou des informations qu'il contient, > doit =EAtre prealablement autoris=E9e. > > Tout message =E9lectronique est susceptible d'alt=E9ration et son integri= t=E9 ne > peut =EAtre assur=E9e. L'envoyeur d=E9cline toute responsabilit=E9 au ti= tre de ce > message s'il a =E9t=E9 modifi=E9 ou falsifi=E9. > > Si vous n'=EAtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le d=E9truire > imm=E9diatement et d'avertir l'exp=E9diteur de l'erreur de distribution e= t de > la > destruction du message. > > ------------------------------ > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : diffusion-bounces@fgi-fr.org > [mailto:diffusion-bounces@fgi-fr.org]De la part de Secretariat AFGI > Envoy=E9 : Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:58 PM > =C0 : diffusion@fgi-fr.org > Cc : comptoir@cafedu.com; iucg@ietf.org > Objet : quels noms de domaine accentu=E9s voulons-nous ? > > > Chers Membres de la Gouvernance fran=E7aise de l'Internet, > La discussion au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version > des RFC sur les noms de domaine souligne un besoin fran=E7ais sur > lequel il est n=E9cessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des > utilisateurs, et des =E9lus qui les repr=E9sentent et sont soucieux de la > d=E9fense de la langue fran=E7aise. > > De fa=E7on concr=E8te il nous faut d=E9cider que "=E9cole.fr", > "ecole.fr", > "Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois noms de > domaine diff=E9rents. Ceci r=E9sulte de ce que "e", "=E9", "=E8", "=EA", = "=EB" > ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et not=E9es "E", et de > ce que cette pratique est accept=E9e par la grammaire fran=E7aise et > utilis=E9e (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas. > > Ou encore : "marie.fr", "mari=E9.fr , "Marie.fr" > > De m=EAme, pour "o=F9", "ou" et "OU", "a", "=E0", et "A", etc. "cire" et > "cir=E9", "naufrage", "naufrag=E9" > > Le fran=E7ais au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant document=E9 que par > france@large. La position de france@large est de consid=E9rer les > signes visibles sans aucune =E9quivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le > protocole - pour (1) respecter le g=E9nie des langues (2) se pr=E9munir > contre le phishing [d=E9ception des utilisateurs jouant sur la > similitude graphique des symboles/caract=E8res] (3) par comparaison du > droit des marques. > > Commentaires bienvenus. > Secr=E9tariat > Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet fran=E7ais. > http://fr-fgi.fr > > > > _______________________________________________ > diffusion mailing list > diffusion@fgi-fr.org > http://fgi-fr.org/mailman/listinfo/diffusion_fgi-fr.org > > > _______________________________________________ > comptoir mailing list > comptoir@cafedu.com > http://cafedu.com/mailman/listinfo/comptoir_cafedu.com > --=20 Fran=E7ois Demay Ancien =E9l=E8ve de l'Ecole Normale sup=E9rieure (Ulm, Sciences) Ancien responsable =E9ditorial d'Encyclopaedia Universalis, des Ouvrages Larousse et de Microsoft-Encarta Consultant, sp=E9cialiste en =E9dition (papier et =E9lectronique) et traite= ment de l'information (lexicographie, terminologie, toponymie, encyclop=E9die, indexation, structuration, classification, cat=E9gorisation, recherche documentaire) Membre de l'agence de maintenance de la norme ISO 3166 Membre de l'agence de maintenance de la norme ISO 15924 --001636c5ad4d31b9b9046353cb32 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sans oublier nos amis anglo-saxons...
Voici la liste des entr=E9es-vedet= tes (lettres A et B) de l'Oxford English Dictionary (OED) comportant un= "e" accent aigu ("=E9")

OED

abb=E9
abonn=E9
actualit=E9, n.
Ad=E9lie
adoss=E9e, ppl. a.
advis=E9, advisee, ppl. a.
affair=E9, a.
agr=E9ment
aide-m=E9moire
a=EEn=E9, a.
Alfv=E9n
aligot=E9
=E2me damn=E9e
ancien r=E9gime
anim=E9, n.
anim=E9, a.
apert=E9
appaum=E9, ppl. a.
appellation contr=F4l=E9e
appliqu=E9, n.
appoint=E9, a.
araign=E9e
arri=E8re-pens=E9e
assembl=E9e
attach=E9
attach=E9 case
au d=E9sespoir
au grand s=E9rieux, advb. phr.
au s=E9rieux, advb. phr.
auto-da-f=E9, -de-f=E9
avodir=E9
avou=E9
balanc=E9
bal costum=E9
ballonn=E9
ballott=E9
bal masqu=E9
bar=E9ge
barn=E9
b=E2tonn=E9
Baum=E9
B=E9arnaise
beaut=E9 du diable
b=E9b=E9
b=E9guin
b=E9nitier
beurr=E9
billet=E9, -ett=E9, -etty
blas=E9, a.
blous=E9e, a.
bois br=FBl=E9
bomb=E9, a.
born=E9, a.
boton=E9, -=E9e, -y
bouch=E9es, n. pl.
boucl=E9, a.
bourdonn=E9e, a.
bourr=E9e
bouts-rim=E9s, n. pl.
bretess=E9, bretessee, bretessy
bris=E9
broch=E9, a.
 
on pourrait faire la m=EAme recherche avec les autres signes diacritiqu= es fran=E7ais (ou autres) et avec d'autres ouvrages anglosaxons:
vo= ir par exemple

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar= y/coup+de+theatre

Pour une vue g=E9n=E9rale sur les syst=E8mes d'=E9critures consulte= r

http://www.geonames= .de/alphce.html



Tr=E8s cordialement

Fran=E7ois Demay

Le 19 f=E9vrier 2009 15:38, JY Gresser <jgresser@noos.fr> a =E9crit :
Les accents etc. = ayant un caract=E8re discriminant en franc,ais, il faut, =E0
mon avis pr=E9server cette caract=E9ristique : Marie et mari=E9 ce n'es= t pas la
m=EAme chose.
En ce qui concerne les majuscules, il s'agit plus d'un probl=E8me d= e graphie
(ou de pr=E9sentation par certains logiciels) que de codage. En franc,ais l= es
majuscules peuvent =EAtre accentu=E9es et il existe un c=E9 c=E9dille.
Je pense que la position n'a pas =E0 =EAtre sp=E9cifiquement franc,aise= mais
partag=E9e par nos amis scandinaves, tch=E8ques, polonais, roumains (vive l= e t=E9
c=E9dille!), irlandais etc.
Bien cordialement,

JYG

+ 33 (0) 1 45 08 09 92 (Paris, France)
+ 33 (0) 6 17 52 10 93 (portable/mobile, France)
jgresser@noos.fr<= br>
------------------------------
Ce message est prot=E9g=E9 par les r=E8gles relatives au secret des
correspondances ; il peut en outre contenir des informations =E0 caract=E8r= e
confidentiel ou prot=E9g=E9es par diff=E9rentes r=E8gles et notamment le se= cret des
affaires ; il est =E9tabli =E0 destination exclusive de son ou de ses
destinataire(s). Toute divulgation, utilisation, diffusion ou reproduction<= br> (totale ou partielle) de ce message, ou des informations qu'il contient= ,
doit =EAtre prealablement autoris=E9e.

Tout message =E9lectronique est susceptible d'alt=E9ration et son integ= rit=E9 ne
peut =EAtre assur=E9e.  L'envoyeur d=E9cline toute responsabilit= =E9 au titre de ce
message s'il a =E9t=E9 modifi=E9 ou falsifi=E9.

Si vous n'=EAtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le d=E9truire=
imm=E9diatement et d'avertir l'exp=E9diteur de l'erreur de dist= ribution et de la
destruction du message.

------------------------------


-----Message d'origine-----
De : diff= usion-bounces@fgi-fr.org
[mailto:d= iffusion-bounces@fgi-fr.org]De la part de Secretariat AFGI
Envoy=E9 : Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:58 PM
=C0 : diffusion@f= gi-fr.org
Cc : comptoir@cafe= du.com; iucg@ietf.or= g
Objet : quels noms de domaine accentu=E9s voulons-nous ?


Chers Membres de la Gouvernance fran=E7aise de l'Internet,
La discussion au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version
des RFC sur les noms de domaine souligne un besoin fran=E7ais sur
lequel il est n=E9cessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des
utilisateurs, et des =E9lus qui les repr=E9sentent et sont soucieux de la d=E9fense de la langue fran=E7aise.

De fa=E7on concr=E8te il nous faut d=E9cider que "=E9cole.fr", "ecole.fr",
"Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois noms de<= br> domaine diff=E9rents. Ceci r=E9sulte de ce que "e", "=E9&quo= t;, "=E8", "=EA", "=EB"
ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et not=E9es "E", = et de
ce que cette pratique est accept=E9e par la grammaire fran=E7aise et
utilis=E9e (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas.

Ou encore : "marie.fr", "mari=E9= .fr, "Marie.fr"

De m=EAme, pour "o=F9", "ou" et "OU", "a= ", "=E0", et "A", etc. "cire" et
"cir=E9", "naufrage", "naufrag=E9"

Le fran=E7ais au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant document=E9 que pa= r
france@large. La position de france@large est de consid=E9rer les
signes visibles sans aucune =E9quivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le
protocole - pour (1) respecter le g=E9nie des langues (2) se pr=E9munir
contre le phishing [d=E9ception des utilisateurs jouant sur la
similitude graphique des symboles/caract=E8res] (3) par comparaison du
droit des marques.

Commentaires bienvenus.
Secr=E9tariat
Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet fran=E7ais. http://fr-fgi.fr



_______________________________________________
diffusion mailing list
diffusion@fgi-fr.= org
http://fgi-fr.org/mailman/listinfo/diffusion_fgi-fr.org


_______________________________________________



--
Fran=E7ois = Demay

Ancien =E9l=E8ve de l'Ecole Normale sup=E9rieure (Ulm, Sci= ences)
Ancien responsable =E9ditorial d'Encyclopaedia Universalis, d= es Ouvrages Larousse et de Microsoft-Encarta
Consultant, sp=E9cialiste en =E9dition (papier et =E9lectronique) et traite= ment de l'information  (lexicographie, terminologie, toponymie, en= cyclop=E9die, indexation, structuration, classification, cat=E9gorisation, = recherche documentaire)
Membre de l'agence de maintenance de la norme ISO 3166
Membre de l&#= 39;agence de maintenance de la norme  ISO 15924
--001636c5ad4d31b9b9046353cb32-- From francois@edemay.com Fri Feb 20 01:30:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F014D3A6853 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:30:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.624 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_54=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lpf6fHMrFV86 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f161.google.com (mail-bw0-f161.google.com [209.85.218.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73383A67C1 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so2258735bwz.13 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:30:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.181.31.16 with SMTP id i16mr210534bkj.129.1235122256539; Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:30:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20090219141522.2CD33171420@mx1.tech.numericable.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:30:56 +0100 Message-ID: From: Francois Demay To: comptoir@cafedu.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c924795af1890463564fe0 Cc: info@fgi-fr.org, diffusion@fgi-fr.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5Bcomptoir_115=5D_Re=3A_quels_noms_de_doma?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ine_accentu=E9s_voulons-nous_=3F?= X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:30:47 -0000 --001636c924795af1890463564fe0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Les Anglo-Saxons utilisent aussi pas mal de mots (d'origine fran=E7aise ou autre) comportant des accents et diacritiques Voir par exemple http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup+d%27etat Pour une revue tr=E8s compl=E8te des syst=E8mes d'=E9criture (donc notammen= t les alphabets et les divers usages de l'alphabet latin) voir http://www.geonames.de/alphab.html Tr=E8s cordialement Fran=E7ois Demay Le 19 f=E9vrier 2009 15:38, JY Gresser a =E9crit : > Les accents etc. ayant un caract=E8re discriminant en franc,ais, il faut,= =E0 > mon avis pr=E9server cette caract=E9ristique : Marie et mari=E9 ce n'est = pas la > m=EAme chose. > En ce qui concerne les majuscules, il s'agit plus d'un probl=E8me de grap= hie > (ou de pr=E9sentation par certains logiciels) que de codage. En franc,ais= les > majuscules peuvent =EAtre accentu=E9es et il existe un c=E9 c=E9dille. > Je pense que la position n'a pas =E0 =EAtre sp=E9cifiquement franc,aise m= ais > partag=E9e par nos amis scandinaves, tch=E8ques, polonais, roumains (vive= le t=E9 > c=E9dille!), irlandais etc. > Bien cordialement, > > JYG > > + 33 (0) 1 45 08 09 92 (Paris, France) > + 33 (0) 6 17 52 10 93 (portable/mobile, France) > jgresser@noos.fr > > ------------------------------ > Ce message est prot=E9g=E9 par les r=E8gles relatives au secret des > correspondances ; il peut en outre contenir des informations =E0 caract= =E8re > confidentiel ou prot=E9g=E9es par diff=E9rentes r=E8gles et notamment le = secret des > affaires ; il est =E9tabli =E0 destination exclusive de son ou de ses > destinataire(s). Toute divulgation, utilisation, diffusion ou reproductio= n > (totale ou partielle) de ce message, ou des informations qu'il contient, > doit =EAtre prealablement autoris=E9e. > > Tout message =E9lectronique est susceptible d'alt=E9ration et son integri= t=E9 ne > peut =EAtre assur=E9e. L'envoyeur d=E9cline toute responsabilit=E9 au ti= tre de ce > message s'il a =E9t=E9 modifi=E9 ou falsifi=E9. > > Si vous n'=EAtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le d=E9truire > imm=E9diatement et d'avertir l'exp=E9diteur de l'erreur de distribution e= t de > la > destruction du message. > > ------------------------------ > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : diffusion-bounces@fgi-fr.org > [mailto:diffusion-bounces@fgi-fr.org]De la part de Secretariat AFGI > Envoy=E9 : Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:58 PM > =C0 : diffusion@fgi-fr.org > Cc : comptoir@cafedu.com; iucg@ietf.org > Objet : quels noms de domaine accentu=E9s voulons-nous ? > > > Chers Membres de la Gouvernance fran=E7aise de l'Internet, > La discussion au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version > des RFC sur les noms de domaine souligne un besoin fran=E7ais sur > lequel il est n=E9cessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des > utilisateurs, et des =E9lus qui les repr=E9sentent et sont soucieux de la > d=E9fense de la langue fran=E7aise. > > De fa=E7on concr=E8te il nous faut d=E9cider que "=E9cole.fr", > "ecole.fr", > "Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois noms de > domaine diff=E9rents. Ceci r=E9sulte de ce que "e", "=E9", "=E8", "=EA", = "=EB" > ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et not=E9es "E", et de > ce que cette pratique est accept=E9e par la grammaire fran=E7aise et > utilis=E9e (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas. > > Ou encore : "marie.fr", "mari=E9.fr , "Marie.fr" > > De m=EAme, pour "o=F9", "ou" et "OU", "a", "=E0", et "A", etc. "cire" et > "cir=E9", "naufrage", "naufrag=E9" > > Le fran=E7ais au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant document=E9 que par > france@large. La position de france@large est de consid=E9rer les > signes visibles sans aucune =E9quivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le > protocole - pour (1) respecter le g=E9nie des langues (2) se pr=E9munir > contre le phishing [d=E9ception des utilisateurs jouant sur la > similitude graphique des symboles/caract=E8res] (3) par comparaison du > droit des marques. > > Commentaires bienvenus. > Secr=E9tariat > Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet fran=E7ais. > http://fr-fgi.fr > > > > _______________________________________________ > diffusion mailing list > diffusion@fgi-fr.org > http://fgi-fr.org/mailman/listinfo/diffusion_fgi-fr.org > > > _______________________________________________ > comptoir mailing list > comptoir@cafedu.com > http://cafedu.com/mailman/listinfo/comptoir_cafedu.com > --=20 Fran=E7ois Demay Ancien =E9l=E8ve de l'Ecole Normale sup=E9rieure (Ulm, Sciences) Ancien responsable =E9ditorial d'Encyclopaedia Universalis, des Ouvrages Larousse et de Microsoft-Encarta Consultant, sp=E9cialiste en =E9dition (papier et =E9lectronique) et traite= ment de l'information (lexicographie, terminologie, toponymie, encyclop=E9die, indexation, structuration, classification, cat=E9gorisation, recherche documentaire) Membre de l'agence de maintenance de la norme ISO 3166 Membre de l'agence de maintenance de la norme ISO 15924 --001636c924795af1890463564fe0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Les Anglo-Saxons utilisent aussi pas mal de mots (d'origine fran=E7aise= ou autre) comportant des accents et diacritiques

 Voir par exe= mple
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup+d%27etat<= /a>

Pour une revue tr=E8s compl=E8te des syst=E8mes d'=E9criture (donc = notamment les alphabets et les divers usages de l'alphabet latin) voir<= br>
http://www.geonames.d= e/alphab.html

Tr=E8s cordialement

Fran=E7ois Demay 

Le 19 f=E9vrier 2009 15:38, JY Gresser <= jgresser@noos.fr&= gt; a =E9crit :
Les accents etc. ayant un caract=E8re discriminant en franc,ais, il faut, = =E0
mon avis pr=E9server cette caract=E9ristique : Marie et mari=E9 ce n'es= t pas la
m=EAme chose.
En ce qui concerne les majuscules, il s'agit plus d'un probl=E8me d= e graphie
(ou de pr=E9sentation par certains logiciels) que de codage. En franc,ais l= es
majuscules peuvent =EAtre accentu=E9es et il existe un c=E9 c=E9dille.
Je pense que la position n'a pas =E0 =EAtre sp=E9cifiquement franc,aise= mais
partag=E9e par nos amis scandinaves, tch=E8ques, polonais, roumains (vive l= e t=E9
c=E9dille!), irlandais etc.
Bien cordialement,

JYG

+ 33 (0) 1 45 08 09 92 (Paris, France)
+ 33 (0) 6 17 52 10 93 (portable/mobile, France)
jgresser@noos.fr<= br>
------------------------------
Ce message est prot=E9g=E9 par les r=E8gles relatives au secret des
correspondances ; il peut en outre contenir des informations =E0 caract=E8r= e
confidentiel ou prot=E9g=E9es par diff=E9rentes r=E8gles et notamment le se= cret des
affaires ; il est =E9tabli =E0 destination exclusive de son ou de ses
destinataire(s). Toute divulgation, utilisation, diffusion ou reproduction<= br> (totale ou partielle) de ce message, ou des informations qu'il contient= ,
doit =EAtre prealablement autoris=E9e.

Tout message =E9lectronique est susceptible d'alt=E9ration et son integ= rit=E9 ne
peut =EAtre assur=E9e.  L'envoyeur d=E9cline toute responsabilit= =E9 au titre de ce
message s'il a =E9t=E9 modifi=E9 ou falsifi=E9.

Si vous n'=EAtes pas destinataire de ce message, merci de le d=E9truire=
imm=E9diatement et d'avertir l'exp=E9diteur de l'erreur de dist= ribution et de la
destruction du message.

------------------------------


-----Message d'origine-----
De : diff= usion-bounces@fgi-fr.org
[mailto:d= iffusion-bounces@fgi-fr.org]De la part de Secretariat AFGI
Envoy=E9 : Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:58 PM
=C0 : diffusion@f= gi-fr.org
Cc : comptoir@cafe= du.com; iucg@ietf.or= g
Objet : quels noms de domaine accentu=E9s voulons-nous ?


Chers Membres de la Gouvernance fran=E7aise de l'Internet,
La discussion au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version
des RFC sur les noms de domaine souligne un besoin fran=E7ais sur
lequel il est n=E9cessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des
utilisateurs, et des =E9lus qui les repr=E9sentent et sont soucieux de la d=E9fense de la langue fran=E7aise.

De fa=E7on concr=E8te il nous faut d=E9cider que "=E9cole.fr", "ecole.fr",
"Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois noms de<= br> domaine diff=E9rents. Ceci r=E9sulte de ce que "e", "=E9&quo= t;, "=E8", "=EA", "=EB"
ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et not=E9es "E", = et de
ce que cette pratique est accept=E9e par la grammaire fran=E7aise et
utilis=E9e (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas.

Ou encore : "marie.fr", "mari=E9= .fr, "Marie.fr"

De m=EAme, pour "o=F9", "ou" et "OU", "a= ", "=E0", et "A", etc. "cire" et
"cir=E9", "naufrage", "naufrag=E9"

Le fran=E7ais au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant document=E9 que pa= r
france@large. La position de france@large est de consid=E9rer les
signes visibles sans aucune =E9quivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le
protocole - pour (1) respecter le g=E9nie des langues (2) se pr=E9munir
contre le phishing [d=E9ception des utilisateurs jouant sur la
similitude graphique des symboles/caract=E8res] (3) par comparaison du
droit des marques.

Commentaires bienvenus.
Secr=E9tariat
Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet fran=E7ais. http://fr-fgi.fr



_______________________________________________
diffusion mailing list
diffusion@fgi-fr.= org
http://fgi-fr.org/mailman/listinfo/diffusion_fgi-fr.org


_______________________________________________



--
Fran=E7ois = Demay

Ancien =E9l=E8ve de l'Ecole Normale sup=E9rieure (Ulm, Sci= ences)
Ancien responsable =E9ditorial d'Encyclopaedia Universalis, d= es Ouvrages Larousse et de Microsoft-Encarta
Consultant, sp=E9cialiste en =E9dition (papier et =E9lectronique) et traite= ment de l'information  (lexicographie, terminologie, toponymie, en= cyclop=E9die, indexation, structuration, classification, cat=E9gorisation, = recherche documentaire)
Membre de l'agence de maintenance de la norme ISO 3166
Membre de l&#= 39;agence de maintenance de la norme  ISO 15924
--001636c924795af1890463564fe0-- From info@fgi-fr.org Thu Feb 19 05:58:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50513A6836 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:58:50 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char E9 hex): Subject: quels noms de domaine accentu\351s voulons-nous ?\n X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rmGpIMFL4ePb for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFAC3A69B4 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69.69.94-79.rev.gaoland.net ([79.94.69.69]:1162 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1La9QY-0001SO-O5; Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:58:59 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:58:19 +0100 To: diffusion@fgi-fr.org From: Secretariat AFGI Subject: quels noms de domaine accentués voulons-nous ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - fgi-fr.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090219135849.0DFAC3A69B4@core3.amsl.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:19:12 -0800 Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com, iucg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:06:31 -0000 Chers Membres de la Gouvernance française de l'Internet, La discussion au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version des RFC sur les noms de domaine souligne un besoin français sur lequel il est nécessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des utilisateurs, et des élus qui les représentent et sont soucieux de la défense de la langue française. De façon concrète il nous faut décider que "école.fr", "ecole.fr", "Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois noms de domaine différents. Ceci résulte de ce que "e", "é", "è", "ê", "ë" ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et notées "E", et de ce que cette pratique est acceptée par la grammaire française et utilisée (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas. Ou encore : "marie.fr", "marié.fr, "Marie.fr" De même, pour "où", "ou" et "OU", "a", "à", et "A", etc. "cire" et "ciré", "naufrage", "naufragé" Le français au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant documenté que par france@large. La position de france@large est de considérer les signes visibles sans aucune équivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le protocole - pour (1) respecter le génie des langues (2) se prémunir contre le phishing [déception des utilisateurs jouant sur la similitude graphique des symboles/caractères] (3) par comparaison du droit des marques. Commentaires bienvenus. Secrétariat Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet français. http://fr-fgi.fr From jefsey@gmail.com Sat Feb 21 13:13:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F62F3A6C63 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:13:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.036, BAYES_05=-1.11, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lNbvBiFFXEXV for ; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f167.google.com (mail-fx0-f167.google.com [209.85.220.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6857B3A6C65 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm11 with SMTP id 11so758590fxm.13 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:13:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Lg7yafO7Q9wuLTDqrXpEZdjweOk2tg6T1s89fnRFvVg=; b=i4uyMKdoQpBq547qWvo4ygLB5HdEpOZSKR26WnrP1EFkaPKy3L2sd0fwRMUGBQJTCa IckuOPo2dtGi+c4H9jwsCvCz7Odn0pBN+Nd4XBhvrXLtRceXO4YbCJ2kNtH9RCM/ReKb w8PpEvHKmt6vsuP8PpEp/X0Q9BibghKn+dYgw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; b=dCFh4O4aAzL0TXIzjAMAaL+NMhrBaCzyygXpHBwP3SHaDi5s3hSQWP16o+Jn4z5xTU Er1T/XC/42dF1n2X+mmYmcrL/06vZGd5vMcgB2zZ6XLxP3nDB0tqv242QSPDZsiEdFVs GEE3dEWWHSTLx6v7IPnIqpLTx3bS9XyDP2vFk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jefsey@gmail.com Received: by 10.181.48.4 with SMTP id a4mr843628bkk.6.1235250822369; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:13:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:13:42 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b39c999de1235a43 Message-ID: <1f9674ed0902211313m2bd1cbcev362223b458925ce0@mail.gmail.com> From: JFC Morfin To: iucg@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f6456079d1500463743edb Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com, listegenerale@franceatlarge.org Subject: [iucg] authentification vs. authorisation X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:13:28 -0000 --001485f6456079d1500463743edb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Je poursuis sur l'appel =E0 l'IESG de Douglas Otis and Dave Rand au sujet d= e la confusion entre authentification et autorisation. Quelqu'un voudrait-il monter une page sur le wiki de l'IUCG pour r=E9unir des positions pratiques d'utilisateurs ? "The Authentication-Results draft is responsible for omitting the input provided the authorization mechanism. It is not the authorization mechanis= m itself that is responsible for the omission. "The goal of the appeal is to better ensure information is available that i= s required to assess the reputation of the "authenticated origin identity" as specified by section 4.1. The presence of this information will not be of harm to recipients, and will better ensure their safety as well as that of the domain. The issue is only whether to display or not the results of thi= s header at the MUA after checking the reputation of its source. In order to perform this check, the "authenticated origin identity" must be clearly represented in the trusted headers. "The IESG faces the hard decision of whether they are to act in the greater interests of better protecting millions of recipients, or acquiesce to the interests of influential providers acting out of self interest." Si nous ne nous prenons pas par la main, nous aurons l'internet des commerciaux am=E9ricains. jfc --001485f6456079d1500463743edb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Je pours= uis sur l'appel =E0 l'IESG de Douglas Otis and Dave Rand au sujet d= e la confusion entre authentification et autorisation. Quelqu'= ;un voudrait-il monter une page sur le wiki de l'IUCG pour r=E9unir des= positions pratiques d'utilisateurs ? 
=
"The Authentication-R= esults draft is responsible for omitting the input provided the authorizati= on mechanism.  It is not the authorization mechanism itself that is re= sponsible for the omission.

= "The goal of the appeal is to better ensure information is available t= hat is required to assess the reputation of the "authenticated origin = identity" as specified by section 4.1.  The presence of this info= rmation will not be of harm to recipients, and will better ensure their saf= ety as well as that of the domain.  The issue is only whether to displ= ay or not the results of this header at the MUA after checking the reputati= on of its source.  In order to perform this check, the "authentic= ated origin identity" must be clearly represented in the trusted heade= rs.

"T= he IESG faces the hard decision of whether they are to act in the greater i= nterests of better protecting millions of recipients, or acquiesce to the i= nterests of influential providers acting out of self interest."=

Si nous ne nous prenon= s pas par la main, nous aurons l'internet des commerciaux am=E9ricains.=
jfc

--001485f6456079d1500463743edb-- From gerard.lang@insee.fr Mon Feb 23 00:13:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2485328C209 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:13:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6kYFVJ3toecQ for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:13:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes2.insee.fr (hermes2.insee.fr [194.254.38.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F7128C200 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes2.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id 1AA123BA26A; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EAA79401F; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aOFS8alNhSNg; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718C179401E; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.50]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:41 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:13:41 +0100 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD0A38@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <20090219135849.0DFAC3A69B4@core3.amsl.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: =?iso-8859-1?Q?quels_noms_de_domaine_accentu=E9s_voulons-nous_=3F?= Thread-Index: AcmTqWsenYrLTTyJQwaoX7foFnLIAAB5D+1w References: <20090219135849.0DFAC3A69B4@core3.amsl.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: "internet users contributing group" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2009 08:13:41.0950 (UTC) FILETIME=[A39ADDE0:01C9958E] Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com Subject: Re: [iucg] =?iso-8859-1?q?quels_noms_de_domaine_accentu=E9s_voulons-n?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ous_=3F?= X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:13:31 -0000 Serait-il d'abord possible de se mettre d'accord sur une liste = EXHAUSTIVE des signes qui sont necessaires et suffisants pour =E9crire = les mots de la langue fran=E7aise ?=20 Par exemple, qu'en est-il du signe "=FF" qui, =E0 ma connaissance = n'apparait que dans l'onomastique (dans le patronyme Fa=FF, dans le = toponyme "Ha=FF-les-Roses") car je ne connais pas de nom commun qui = l'utilise, ou du signe "=FC" qui est utilis=E9 par l'=E9tat civil ? G=E9rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : iucg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:iucg-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = Secretariat AFGI Envoy=E9 : jeudi 19 f=E9vrier 2009 14:58 =C0 : diffusion@fgi-fr.org Cc : comptoir@cafedu.com; iucg@ietf.org Objet : quels noms de domaine accentu=E9s voulons-nous ? Chers Membres de la Gouvernance fran=E7aise de l'Internet, La discussion = au WG-IDNABIS qui doit standardiser la nouvelle version des RFC sur les = noms de domaine souligne un besoin fran=E7ais sur lequel il est = n=E9cessaire d'avoir d'urgence le commentaire des utilisateurs, et des = =E9lus qui les repr=E9sentent et sont soucieux de la d=E9fense de la = langue fran=E7aise. De fa=E7on concr=E8te il nous faut d=E9cider que "=E9cole.fr", = "ecole.fr", "Ecole.fr", soient un unique ou deux (lesquels) ou trois = noms de domaine diff=E9rents. Ceci r=E9sulte de ce que "e", "=E9", = "=E8", "=EA", "=EB"=20 ont leurs majuscules absentes du clavier QWERTY et not=E9es "E", et de = ce que cette pratique est accept=E9e par la grammaire fran=E7aise et = utilis=E9e (hors Internet) dans 52% des cas. Ou encore : "marie.fr", "mari=E9.fr, "Marie.fr" De m=EAme, pour "o=F9", "ou" et "OU", "a", "=E0", et "A", etc. "cire" et = "cir=E9", "naufrage", "naufrag=E9" Le fran=E7ais au WG-IDNABIS n'est pour l'instant document=E9 que par = france@large. La position de france@large est de consid=E9rer les signes = visibles sans aucune =E9quivalence majuscule, minuscule dans le = protocole - pour (1) respecter le g=E9nie des langues (2) se pr=E9munir = contre le phishing [d=E9ception des utilisateurs jouant sur la = similitude graphique des symboles/caract=E8res] (3) par comparaison du = droit des marques. Commentaires bienvenus. Secr=E9tariat Association pour le Forum de la Gouvernance de l'Internet fran=E7ais. http://fr-fgi.fr _______________________________________________ iucg mailing list iucg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg From jefsey@jefsey.com Mon Feb 23 06:56:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C6F3A6A59 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:56:00 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <2+AwsEKaJCVv> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char E9 hex): Subject: Re: quels noms de domaine accentu\351s voulons-nous ?\n X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2+AwsEKaJCVv for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DD63A6837 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:3770 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LbcEC-00031r-Cc; Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:56:17 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:56:16 +0100 To: comptoir@cafedu.com,"internet users contributing group" From: JFC Morfin Subject: Re: quels noms de domaine accentués voulons-nous ? In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD0A38@S90X2HUB1.ad.inse e.intra> References: <20090219135849.0DFAC3A69B4@core3.amsl.com> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94904AD0A38@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090223145559.D6DD63A6837@core3.amsl.com> X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:56:00 -0000 At 09:13 23/02/2009, Lang Gérard wrote: >Serait-il d'abord possible de se mettre d'accord sur une liste >EXHAUSTIVE des signes qui sont necessaires et suffisants pour écrire >les mots de la langue française ? >Par exemple, qu'en est-il du signe "ÿ" qui, à ma connaissance >n'apparait que dans l'onomastique (dans le patronyme Faÿ, dans le >toponyme "Haÿ-les-Roses") car je ne connais pas de nom commun qui >l'utilise, ou du signe "ü" qui est utilisé par l'état civil ? >Gérard LANG La remarque est pertinente et il serait bon que les caractères officiellement admis soient indiqués quelque part dans une connexion à 3166-4, en particulier si les signes "$","£","€" peuvent ou non être utilisés dans des noms de domaine. Mais ici le sujet est "à l'envers", il ne s'agit pas tant de ce qui est permis, mais de ce qui n'est pas interdit par la forme donnée au standard. Si nous confondons Y et y ("pliage" majuscule/minuscule comme actuellement), avec Y est aussi la majuscule de ÿ, on crée un conflit. Nous ne voulons pas de ce pliage automatique - ce que permettait le charter de la révision IDNA. Mais nous voulons en avoir la possibilité pour les zones que nous gérons (protection des marques par exemple). Nous n'avons là pas d'exemple à donner, mais nous voulons que la décision soit celle de la loi française et non des intérêts mondiaux de Google à détruire les cultures qui n'achètent pas du Google. C'est cela la vraie "net neutraity" que le lobby commercial GNI/ISOC/Unicode, etc.. (c'est toujours les mêmes) veut nous faire battre en brèche au nom de leur "net neutrality", de leur campagne pour leur droit d'expression contre les gouvernements nationaux, pour leur classement et filtrage des langues, etc. Vint Cerf vient de proposer que l'on ait quatre caractères (Eszett, S grec final et deux caractères asiatiques) qui soient traités spécialement. Si l'on fait cela pour quelques-uns, il faut le faire pour beaucoup d'autres. Ceci ne relève plus du protocole, mais du bricolage discriminatoire, si tous les problèmes similaires ne sont pas traités, ce qui entrainera une multitude de conflits possibles, une grande complexité, un délai de plusieurs années, et une conclusion à l'impossibilité, ne laissant comme possibilité que le statu quo dénoncé par l'IAB mais très acceptable à l'e-commerce anglo-saxon (les marques fameuses n'ont ainsi besoin que d'une seule typographie "plus aisément mémorisable" globalement). Ce que nous réclamons est que le gestionnaire de zone puisse choisir le type de conversion ou non qu'il fait et l'indiquer. Ceci relève du domaine d'un protocole Internet, le bidouillage d'une norme externe (ISO 10646) sous le couvert de l'un de ses auteurs (Unicode) non. Le problème qui en résulte est la possibilité pour quiconque d'utiliser cette possibilité pour gérer des espaces de nommage non contrôlés par l'ICANN, donc le besoin d'une concertation de type coopération renforcée du nommage, avec toutes les dérives possibles vers les scTLD (socioculturels) la bête noire absolue de l'ICANN en configuration américaine (perte de contrôle politique) ou Wallabee (les Australiens actuellement aux commandes du nommage ICANN, en raison de l'intention du projet Multilinc (scTLDs) de ne pas se faire rançonner). jfc From jefsey@jefsey.com Wed Feb 25 10:30:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBB828C2AC for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:30:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.220, BAYES_20=-0.74, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Egl6QJUsP6m4 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AEB28C2BB for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:3536 helo=asus.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LcOWy-0007hA-2f; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:30:54 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:30:55 +0100 To: Vint Cerf From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20090225135726.0a4782c8@localhost> References: <200902242112.n1OLCg829012@birdie.sybase.com> <30b660a20902241322n771d48c7o9a6ca0b2e2aa8b2f@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20090225135726.0a4782c8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_351127140==.ALT" X-Pass-two: yes X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20090225183041.53AEB28C2BB@core3.amsl.com> Cc: listegenerale@franceatlarge.org, "michel@suignard.com" , idna-update@alvestrand.no, iucg@ietf.org, Kenneth Whistler , Mark Davis , Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [iucg] Not Folding Case (was: Re: Eszett ( was AW: Esszett, Final Sigma, ZWJ and ZWNJ) X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:30:44 -0000 --=====================_351127140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Vint, I cannot avoid characterizing the attached mails as "ad linguam" and "ad homines". I hope they stop. Happily, Vaggelis just raised equivalent problems in the Greek language and I hope, therefore, that we may start working on his problem first, giving me time in turn to poll French people on what they want to do. I recall that the situation is not for this WG to decide what French speakers should do, but rather how French speakers will adapt the Internet to their individual needs and to their language if they are not supported. This being said, these mails show that half-knowledge is dangerous and worse than ignorance. They illustrate why Unicode is not already appropriate for supporting the Intersem (Semantic and Multilingual International Network). Unicode only considers upper and lower cases and titles. Assuming that big caps are the same as small caps. In French, at least, (and I understand in some other languages such as in Greek) this is not the case. This confusion is also seen in the English language, which translates the French "majuscule" as "capital", while in French for upper-case means "capitale". The same, Unicode and keyboards do not support the breves and macrons (macrons are well accepted now in press titles). Hence, the confusion brought about by Martin. For example, the French Postal Service requests people to use big "capitale" letters, which do not have accents. But in good orthography, the first letter may be a "majuscule" and in that case should have an accent in non-postal usage. This should be considered in the RFCs on civic addressing. Hence, the confusion brought about by Mark. The reference he makes to "Le Monde" is a well known case that demonstrates exactly the opposite. The "majuscule" is "S" in "sériie" actually and the rest of the word is in small caps (which are capitalized lower case). In such a case, an accent is accepted in French speaking countries (e.g. Switzerland) where "majuscules" are orthographically not accentuated. Hence, the confusion brought about by Kenneth. He also confuses "majuscules" and "capitales". "Majuscules" must always (and them only) be in upper-case. In proper language, they SHOULD be accentuated. However, when this is not possible (keyboard, font, handwriting) they MUST at least be in upper case. I note here that these usages that carry a precise semantic are not 2,500 years old as in the Greek but they are certainly more than 250 years old. The question is: "is IDNA going to respect the RFC and experts' fancies more than people's actual usage"? The implication of Michel Suignard and the scornful style of these three mails in turn lead me to think that, unfortunately, their position is not wrong regarding multilinguistics, a misled network architecture, or protocol confusion, but rather clearly of economic intelligence. I have nothing to object to in this case, in which I consider it as fully illustrating IAB's RFC 3869. This is only something that will make users more precautious about IDNA and, therefore, another difficulty to eventually be addressed. Multilinguistics is not a discipline that is easily applied! jfc At 06:02 25/02/2009, Martin Duerst wrote: >This is a well-known phenomenon. French people get told that there >are no accents on upper-case letters in school, and then live on with >that belief. Thereafter, they regularly see upper-case letters with >accents, but they don't realize that they might have to change their >beliefs because reading these upper-case letters with accents happens >unconciously. Some even might claim that something is wrong when >somebody shows them an example of an upper-case letter with an >accent. > >The best way to confirm that accents can and do appear on upper-case >letters is to check the "Petit Robert", the most widely used >French-French dictionary. > >Regards, Martin. > >P.S.: Effects such as the above are one reason why Internationalization > is difficult. It's not enough to ask a few native speakers/writers, > one has to find out who the real experts are and confirm things > in the field with an open eye. > >P.P.S.: The above is not just heresay, I had several such experiences > with relatives of mine. > > >At 06:22 09/02/25, Mark Davis wrote: > >Moreover, the supposedly required deaccenting of uppercase French > appears to be a canard. Not only is it contested by > internationalization experts like Michel Suignard, but even casual > browsing will find respectable usage of uppercase with accents such as: > > > >http://www.lemonde.fr/ > > > >eg on that page "LE MONDE DES S$B%F13(BIES", plus the tabs. > > > >Mark > > > > > >On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 13:12, Kenneth Whistler > <kenw@sybase.com> wrote: > >>jfc said: > >> > >>> May I add that French supports calls for uper cases NOT to be folded > >>> but to be supported as characters by their own. > >>> This means that "ecole.fr", > "$B%F&D%%(Bcole.fr" and "Ecole.fr" are to be three > >>> different domain names. > >> > >>which is just silly. The implication of that is that the > >>following would also be different domain names: > >> > >>eCole.fr > >>ecOle.fr > >>ecoLe.fr > >>ecolE.fr > >>ECole.fr > >>EcOle.fr > >>EcoLe.fr > >>EcolE.fr > >>ECOle.fr > >>ECoLe.fr > >>EColE.fr > >> > >>etc., etc., for 32 different strings, before even starting > >>to consider the accent folding issues. > >> > >>This is incompatible both with existing ASCII domain name > >>usage *and* with IDNA 2003 domain name usage. And it > >>would result in a combinatorial bundling nightmare requiring > >>2^n items be bundled for every n Latin (or Greek or Cyrillic) > >>letter in a domain name. > >> > >>And no, you cannot get away with claiming this would only > >>apply to the first letter of a domain name, because there > >>is no mechanism in IDNA for parsing out words in domain > >>name labels, viz.: > >> > >>http://dangerecole.blogspot.com/ > >> > >>as opposed to: > >> > >>http://www.ecoleprinceton.org/ > >> > >>or > >> > >>http://www.ecolephilippegaulier.com/ > >> > >>--Ken > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Idna-update mailing list > >>Idna-update@alvestrand.no > >>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Idna-update mailing list > >Idna-update@alvestrand.no > >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update > > >#-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >#-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > >_______________________________________________ >Idna-update mailing list >Idna-update@alvestrand.no >http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update --=====================_351127140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Vint,

I cannot avoid characterizing the attached mails as "ad linguam" and "ad homines". I hope they stop. Happily, Vaggelis just raised equivalent problems in the Greek language and I hope, therefore, that we may start working on his problem first, giving me time in turn to poll French people on what they want to do. I recall that the situation is not for this WG to decide what French speakers should do, but rather how French speakers will adapt the Internet to their individual needs and to their language if they are not supported.

This being said, these mails show that half-knowledge is dangerous and worse than ignorance. They illustrate why Unicode is not already appropriate for supporting the Intersem (Semantic and Multilingual International Network). Unicode only considers upper and lower cases and titles. Assuming that big caps are the same as small caps. In French, at least, (and I understand in some other languages such as in Greek) this is not the case. This confusion is also seen in the English language, which translates the French "majuscule" as "capital", while in French for upper-case means "capitale". The same, Unicode and keyboards do not support the breves and macrons (macrons are well accepted now in press titles).

Hence, the confusion brought about by Martin. For example, the French Postal Service requests people to use big "capitale" letters, which do not have accents. But in good orthography, the first letter may be a "majuscule" and in that case should have an accent in non-postal usage. This should be considered in the RFCs on civic addressing.

Hence, the confusion brought about by Mark. The reference he makes to "Le Monde" is a well known case that demonstrates exactly the opposite. The "majuscule" is "S" in "sériie" actually and the rest of the word is in small caps (which are capitalized lower case). In such a case, an accent is accepted in French speaking countries (e.g. Switzerland) where "majuscules" are orthographically not accentuated.

Hence, the confusion brought about by Kenneth. He also confuses "majuscules" and "capitales". "Majuscules" must always (and them only) be in upper-case. In proper language, they SHOULD be accentuated. However, when this is not possible (keyboard, font, handwriting) they MUST at least be in upper case.

I note here that these usages that carry a precise semantic are not 2,500 years old as in the Greek but they are certainly more than 250 years old. The question is: "is IDNA going to respect the RFC and experts' fancies more than people's actual usage"?

The implication of Michel Suignard and the scornful style of these three mails in turn lead me to think that, unfortunately, their position is not wrong regarding multilinguistics, a misled network architecture, or protocol confusion, but rather clearly of economic intelligence. I have nothing to object to in this case, in which I consider it as fully illustrating IAB's RFC 3869. This is only something that will make users more precautious about IDNA and, therefore, another difficulty to eventually be addressed.

Multilinguistics is not a discipline that is easily applied!
jfc

At 06:02 25/02/2009, Martin Duerst wrote:
This is a well-known phenomenon. French people get told that there
are no accents on upper-case letters in school, and then live on with
that belief. Thereafter, they regularly see upper-case letters with
accents, but they don't realize that they might have to change their
beliefs because reading these upper-case letters with accents happens
unconciously. Some even might claim that something is wrong when
somebody shows them an example of an upper-case letter with an
accent.

The best way to confirm that accents can and do appear on upper-case
letters is to check the "Petit Robert", the most widely used
French-French dictionary.

Regards,    Martin.

P.S.: Effects such as the above are one reason why Internationalization
      is difficult. It's not enough to ask a few native speakers/writers,
      one has to find out who the real experts are and confirm things
      in the field with an open eye.

P.P.S.: The above is not just heresay, I had several such experiences
        with relatives of mine.


At 06:22 09/02/25, Mark Davis wrote:
>Moreover, the supposedly required deaccenting of uppercase French appears to be a canard. Not only is it contested by internationalization experts like Michel Suignard, but even casual browsing will find respectable usage of uppercase with accents such as:
>
>< http://www.lemonde.fr/>http://www.lemonde.fr/
>
>eg on that page "LE MONDE DES S$B%F13(BIES", plus the tabs.
>
>Mark
>
>
>On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 13:12, Kenneth Whistler << mailto:kenw@sybase.com>kenw@sybase.com> wrote:
>>jfc said:
>>
>>> May I add that French supports calls for uper cases NOT to be folded
>>> but to be supported as characters by their own.
>>> This means that "< http://ecole.fr>ecole.fr", "$B%F&D%%(B< http://cole.fr>cole.fr" and "Ecole.fr" are to be three
>>> different domain names.
>>
>>which is just silly. The implication of that is that the
>>following would also be different domain names:
>>
>>eCole.fr
>>ecOle.fr
>>ecoLe.fr
>>ecolE.fr
>>ECole.fr
>>EcOle.fr
>>EcoLe.fr
>>EcolE.fr
>>ECOle.fr
>>ECoLe.fr
>>EColE.fr
>>
>>etc., etc., for 32 different strings, before even starting
>>to consider the accent folding issues.
>>
>>This is incompatible both with existing ASCII domain name
>>usage *and* with IDNA 2003 domain name usage. And it
>>would result in a combinatorial bundling nightmare requiring
>>2^n items be bundled for every n Latin (or Greek or Cyrillic)
>>letter in a domain name.
>>
>>And no, you cannot get away with claiming this would only
>>apply to the first letter of a domain name, because there
>>is no mechanism in IDNA for parsing out words in domain
>>name labels, viz.:
>>
>>< http://dangerecole.blogspot.com/>http://dangerecole.blogspot.com/
>>
>>as opposed to:
>>
>>< http://www.ecoleprinceton.org/ > http://www.ecoleprinceton.org/
>>
>>or
>>
>>< http://www.ecolephilippegaulier.com/ > http://www.ecolephilippegaulier.com/
>>
>>--Ken
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Idna-update mailing list
>>< mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no>Idna-update@alvestrand.no
>> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
>
>_______________________________________________
>Idna-update mailing list
>Idna-update@alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp    mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp 


_______________________________________________
Idna-update mailing list
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http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
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