From jefsey@jefsey.com Tue Oct 6 04:29:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F8728C12E for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:29:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <3tcG6gr0t93b> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char FC hex): To: "Martin J. D\374rst" ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74073A6802 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 89-158-60-18.rev.dartybox.com ([89.158.60.18]:1607 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mv8FH-00086U-Ec; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 04:30:19 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:25:02 +0200 To: "Martin J. Dürst" ,Vint Cerf From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <4ACB0A60.5000608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <200910052014.n95KEaw08697@birdie.sybase.com> <9FA605F57343CEF5EFABE247@PST.JCK.COM> <7244A8D31696F4C508337CDF@PST.JCK.COM> <0A140D60-175C-4C0A-A9F8-61149443DE60@google.com> <4ACB0A60.5000608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20091006112846.A74073A6802@core3.amsl.com> Cc: John C Klensin , iucg@ietf.org, Kenneth Whistler , erikv@google.com Subject: Re: [iucg] [Gen-art] LC review: draft-ietf-idnabis-bidi-06.txt X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:29:15 -0000 At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. Dürst wrote: >On 2009/10/06 14:25, Vint Cerf wrote: > > i think adding text about relationship to tables is the minimum > > requirement. removing reference to CS has been proposed and if no one > > objects to that alternative it might be the least confusing choice. > >I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might make >use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail. +1 jfc PS. Since I cannot be recorded in the idna-update archives, I suggest that contributing users who can consider supporting Martin's position. This is not a vote, but it is important to show if there is agreement or not to support CS removal. From mfberny@gmail.com Tue Oct 6 04:59:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EB928C12E for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:59:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0V3IOwSIeuJ1 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f214.google.com (mail-ew0-f214.google.com [209.85.219.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15EA28C121 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 04:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ewy10 with SMTP id 10so4082105ewy.9 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 05:01:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=xsJ8Uv64QeBCLOWW/9FeucgyJX0NSLy+tDUYxYKl714=; b=dbDY5n8O5VQ/q/F1DUd+ccBefy1ollqV9k80rxsaEKPbV4Bpm+gnJnvtFSfnuWySfP Ps9x+z8iSandPlEvojBAIKnR4PNmZvBC5eJXw6ybDIv/wzMiNgj8q0YYw2ATiuSmzWJB 1NBY9/enAA/7yRTsQYM8NVGX9bAyjcSAB/0uY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=OEgcBmHJLlpwgORgvk5ScDPfKpraNdHmsrUN1YV9qRyYgTU2t+oVVNPyMXoRg+NX+s 3QGlKUiu+Bw84GbXQW1PqLilQm2TBOxop+B4JxeGTQvt1vwSydyhFZVFGaZha11C50jS NG27SHnO8vyPkcF1NyAUzgWK9LUP5SpF3rlZY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.21.20 with SMTP id q20mr286187weq.216.1254830488545; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 05:01:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20091006112846.A74073A6802@core3.amsl.com> References: <200910052014.n95KEaw08697@birdie.sybase.com> <9FA605F57343CEF5EFABE247@PST.JCK.COM> <7244A8D31696F4C508337CDF@PST.JCK.COM> <0A140D60-175C-4C0A-A9F8-61149443DE60@google.com> <4ACB0A60.5000608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20091006112846.A74073A6802@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:01:28 +0200 Message-ID: <58ee45520910060501i43f59a3l41ba18cf4a3dbae7@mail.gmail.com> From: Marie-France Berny To: idna-update@alvestrand.no Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6408cd085ed22047542fd6a Cc: erikv@google.com, John C Klensin , internet users contributing group , Kenneth Whistler , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst?= , Vint Cerf Subject: Re: [iucg] [Gen-art] LC review: draft-ietf-idnabis-bidi-06.txt X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:59:55 -0000 --0016e6408cd085ed22047542fd6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le 6 octobre 2009 13:25, JFC Morfin a =E9crit : > At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > > On 2009/10/06 14:25, Vint Cerf wrote: >> > i think adding text about relationship to tables is the minimum >> > requirement. removing reference to CS has been proposed and if no one >> > objects to that alternative it might be the least confusing choice. >> >> I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might make >> use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail. >> > +1 Removing them adds nothing to IDNA but may create an additional problem wit= h idnaplus when we succeeded in miniminzing them quite to nil. What would be the interest? Marie-France Berny --0016e6408cd085ed22047542fd6a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Le 6 octobre 2009 13:25, JFC Morfin <jefsey@jefsey.com> a =E9crit :
At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote:

On 2009/10/06 14:25, Vint Cerf wrote:
> i think adding text about relationship to tables is the minimum
> requirement. removing reference to CS has been proposed and if no one<= br> > objects to that alternative it might be the least confusing choice.
I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might make
use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail.
=A0
+1
Removing them adds nothing to IDNA but may creat= e an additional problem with idnaplus when we succeeded in miniminzing them= quite to nil. What would be the interest?
Marie-France Berny


--0016e6408cd085ed22047542fd6a-- From jmabdp@gmail.com Tue Oct 6 06:01:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A4C28C182 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:01:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.291 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.291 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.307, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Do3PM5SQW5Vl for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f215.google.com (mail-gx0-f215.google.com [209.85.217.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0723A67F0 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk7 with SMTP id 7so622195gxk.14 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:03:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=u1di3qYCAt6ufKS5WYg4S91IU3yM4Ov1l993+WOYsB8=; b=Lxq3vwMfysw0Vitc8TMmoViFVEE5Sb8InpeRdRjRDCNF7brYfcAwmyWUWwGHw+SSoW RMgQQJN1R4f4OEfitR0igoXgyt4OO6+fXKpNNqB/fTT9DAqUhnBranrslezAORz4GMHY +3nH1ZVbDb9hsN07g8uhC3IO/Z7co3nk1c4dU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=DWYmjPa9BKsUVIqECrZYQrdStYPZx6sf8/eRHJsrte4HRxPJHUxXPhPaVwKFvBmOty 3+IoV3KcHGynLNDT/cbUBpBTlftks7GIaN4SVi0TP9/4Wwd4/NsC63wo43HcU1x7IyxJ dP6u1yKTkZ2s2nFukmKW+yyFeFxWZOaPqz7Is= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.6.38 with SMTP id j38mr1455776ani.138.1254834202073; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:03:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <58ee45520910060501i43f59a3l41ba18cf4a3dbae7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910052014.n95KEaw08697@birdie.sybase.com> <9FA605F57343CEF5EFABE247@PST.JCK.COM> <7244A8D31696F4C508337CDF@PST.JCK.COM> <0A140D60-175C-4C0A-A9F8-61149443DE60@google.com> <4ACB0A60.5000608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20091006112846.A74073A6802@core3.amsl.com> <58ee45520910060501i43f59a3l41ba18cf4a3dbae7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:03:22 +0200 Message-ID: <6aad7a210910060603x286e147cma394308d775d4b7e@mail.gmail.com> From: jean-michel bernier de portzamparc To: IDNA update work Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c92564dddc17047543da26 Cc: erikv@google.com, John C Klensin , iucg@ietf.org, Kenneth Whistler , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst?= , Vint Cerf Subject: Re: [iucg] [Gen-art] LC review: draft-ietf-idnabis-bidi-06.txt X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:01:48 -0000 --001636c92564dddc17047543da26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2009/10/6 Marie-France Berny > At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: >> >>> I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might make >>> use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail. >>> >> > +1 > Removing them adds nothing to IDNA but may create an additional problem > with idnaplus when we succeeded in miniminzing them quite to nil. What wo= uld > be the interest? > I object to a removal at this stage. The current IDNA document set has been reviewed by many people we asked if it could support the international semantic addressing scheme we work on. The response was positive and we therefore joined the WG consensus. Removing CS at this stage is something w= e cannot accept as it would call for new review round. This would call at least for one month, work, time, explanations, and probably some credibilit= y loss with experts of whose we need further cooperation. Unless obviously if there is a clear dirimant reason? But this does not see= m to be the case? Portzamparc --001636c92564dddc17047543da26 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2009/10/6 Marie-France Berny <mfberny@gmail.com>=
At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote:
I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might make
use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail.
=A0
+1
Removing them adds nothing to IDNA but may= create an additional problem with idnaplus when we succeeded in miniminzin= g them quite to nil. What would be the interest?

I object to a removal at this stage. The = current IDNA document set has been reviewed by many people we asked if it = could support the international semantic addressing scheme we work on. The = response was positive and we therefore joined the WG consensus. Removing CS= at this stage is something we cannot accept as it would call for new revie= w round. This would call at least for one month, work, time, explanations, = and probably some credibility loss with experts of whose we need further co= operation.

Unless obviously if there is a clear dirimant reason? But this does not= seem to be the case?

Portzamparc

--001636c92564dddc17047543da26-- From psuger@gmail.com Tue Oct 6 06:53:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE2F3A69BE for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.567, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oaCiPdzc2K-1 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f210.google.com (mail-bw0-f210.google.com [209.85.218.210]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EA83A694F for ; Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz6 with SMTP id 6so3258691bwz.37 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:54:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kRonOK1QXI2inDq3qV53+IGofwXYJLGqQiNLtnGq97s=; b=DCST46YNooI2uyqsfDLbeM2J1pIxJora9f/NlwB4oN7Oa9WIO/4s3dezCaYmUp6n0Z tea5dNBYBY28R/wHmHzwsJJosV+0aBChxCV688S4Bo0hWqr60hOX2P/4KwQ2KFufpbcA /ueGkI5sn0LcVMqX990+dIJDSRkovIn1D9hJ0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=RgBhFPXN67Gou9q+pFJ30I55CapHXAQCV4GRWKtcxwpqfkv2OEhGk2ADAst9t+wDuv /SQ0M3aq74GtLI+2O43+MwxAiszurPHQVVvTz/Sw+reLt3QA66aLesqVAS7gy7IW5CnM SqwbMV/h9I8yrCWsCQwMjC8rqZ/sR1mmDD/6M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.139.104 with SMTP id s40mr138475hbs.76.1254837295050; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:54:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6aad7a210910060603x286e147cma394308d775d4b7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <200910052014.n95KEaw08697@birdie.sybase.com> <9FA605F57343CEF5EFABE247@PST.JCK.COM> <7244A8D31696F4C508337CDF@PST.JCK.COM> <0A140D60-175C-4C0A-A9F8-61149443DE60@google.com> <4ACB0A60.5000608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20091006112846.A74073A6802@core3.amsl.com> <58ee45520910060501i43f59a3l41ba18cf4a3dbae7@mail.gmail.com> <6aad7a210910060603x286e147cma394308d775d4b7e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:54:54 +0200 Message-ID: <4e9b16b30910060654j6bed356bj25725c7422b1f0e8@mail.gmail.com> From: Patrick Suger To: internet users contributing group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f1ec8438f1fa047544938c Cc: erikv@google.com, John C Klensin , Kenneth Whistler , IDNA update work , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst?= , Vint Cerf Subject: Re: [iucg] [Gen-art] LC review: draft-ietf-idnabis-bidi-06.txt X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:53:22 -0000 --001485f1ec8438f1fa047544938c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 For the reasons given below and because I think this is a point the Arabic mailing list should address first. Best. PS 2009/10/6 jean-michel bernier de portzamparc > 2009/10/6 Marie-France Berny > >> At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: >>> >>>> I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might mak= e >>>> use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail. >>>> >>> >> +1 >> Removing them adds nothing to IDNA but may create an additional problem >> with idnaplus when we succeeded in miniminzing them quite to nil. What w= ould >> be the interest? >> > > I object to a removal at this stage. The current IDNA document set has be= en > reviewed by many people we asked if it could support the international > semantic addressing scheme we work on. The response was positive and we > therefore joined the WG consensus. Removing CS at this stage is something= we > cannot accept as it would call for new review round. This would call at > least for one month, work, time, explanations, and probably some credibil= ity > loss with experts of whose we need further cooperation. > > Unless obviously if there is a clear dirimant reason? But this does not > seem to be the case? > > Portzamparc > > > _______________________________________________ > iucg mailing list > iucg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg > > --001485f1ec8438f1fa047544938c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1
For the reasons given below and because I think this is a point the A= rabic mailing list should address first.
Best.
PS

2009/10/6 jean-michel bernier de portzamparc <jmabdp@gmail= .com>
2009/10/6 Marie-France Berny &= lt;mfberny@gmail.com= >
At 11:14 06/10/2009, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote:
I object to the removal of CS, because specs other than IDNA might make
use of BIDI. Please see my previous mail.
=A0
+1
Removing them adds nothing to I= DNA but may create an additional problem with idnaplus when we succeeded in= miniminzing them quite to nil. What would be the interest?

I object to a removal at this stage= . The current IDNA document set has been reviewed by many people we asked i= f it could support the international semantic addressing scheme we work on= . The response was positive and we therefore joined the WG consensus. Remov= ing CS at this stage is something we cannot accept as it would call for new= review round. This would call at least for one month, work, time, explanat= ions, and probably some credibility loss with experts of whose we need furt= her cooperation.

Unless obviously if there is a clear dirimant reason? But this does not= seem to be the case?

Portzamparc


_______________________________________________
iucg mailing list
iucg@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg


--001485f1ec8438f1fa047544938c-- From jefsey@jefsey.com Mon Oct 12 15:31:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E36D28C298 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:31:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.518 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.317, BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_73=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KSetnLlkS0Rm for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BE528C2C7 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 89-158-60-40.rev.dartybox.com ([89.158.60.40]:3979 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MxTPz-0004mS-W4; Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:31:04 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:30:58 +0200 To: sarmad.hussain@nu.edu.pk From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20091012223107.77BE528C2C7@core3.amsl.com> Cc: genetech@mltf.org, Vint Cerf , iucg@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault , Arabic Scripts IDNA Subject: Re: [iucg] [Idna-arabicscript] mapping of Full Stops X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:31:09 -0000 I apologize, I forgot to copy IUCG. In the meanwhile John Klensin and Wil Tan conforted our position and the importance of the netlocale issue and of experience. Obviously our priority is to support century old orthtypography rather than six year old prototyping. We will certainly not consider the re-registration of one or thousands of domain names as a serious issue if its to correct a possible semantic pollution. jfc -------- Dear Sarmad, From what I currently understand: - you want to add U+06D4 as a local IDN separator in the example list of the Mapping document because expect it to facilitate things for your linguistic community. - Paul is OK with adding another example in an open list - John believes that this facilitation should be offered to every community that has a similar need - Vint believes that this should not be carried by the IETF, and proposes ICANN instead - John objects to ICANN, for several reasons, and others may object for reasons other than those - Eric recalls that U+06D4 is supported in labels in IDNA2003 - Andrew agrees with John if the request is global, with Vint if not, ICANN being suited or not - I agree with Paul, also with John: you will not be the only one to ask for such tunings, so this kind of needs should be addressed on a structural basis if they belong to IDNA2010. But this is another architectural story and we need to gain operational experience and more inputs. As internet lead users, we set-up the IUCG (Internet users contributing group) with a mission that we started experimenting during the recent months. It is to _facilitate_ the user experience of the digital convergence. This has led to the conceptual addition of a middle common layer-set between the Internet (and other passive, active, or ambient content transport technologies) and the user. This includes what some call the UI (user interface). Because we believe the Internet to be the most probable central technology for the digital convergence, upon IESG avdvise we requested our IUCG to be established as the non-WG IETF iucg@ietf.org mailing list. It was copied many of the WG-IDNABIS mails. The way that we are exploring Facilitation implementation is to implement it on top of the Network layers, so that the Facilitation can be seen from the network point of view as just another UI, outside of the IETF scope, but still in close relation with it. We called that UI "Interplus" since it plugs layers on the user side (or they may be implemented in using a user OPES or as a distributed OPES network [ONES]), so that the user who is choosing to use it feels like he or she was interfacing an "Internet PLUS" network system. We have indentified three layers that are to be plugged in a top-down order (from the user): (1) a "pseudo-network" layer hosting network service oriented interapplication slots (2) an interoperation layer interfacing Internet network applications and pseudo-network local or distant interapplication slots (3) the virtual Internet presentation layer as implemented by the IDN interapplication. In this Interplus user side UI architecture, IDNA is not individually supported at the user application level, but it is generally supported at the IDNAPLUS interapplication slot. It is in this way that the slot can be called, through the interoperating layer by the local DNS name server slot and filter every local and external request, and in this way participate in an mbient prevention of the DNS pollution. One of the tasks that we have is to explore the Netix interoperation system that will dispatch and control this kind of intertasking througout the interoperation layer. This user side UI architecture uses a four layer domain name pile, including the UDN (what the user types in), LDN (what local processing may need), the ADN (what the applications need), and the IDN (what the Internet supports, i.e. A-labels and regular DNs [there is no need to differentiate between DNs and IDNs since, moreover, we use an identical syntax to describe them]). IDNAPLUS uses the "punyplus" extended algorithm. This algorithm converts UDNs to LDN to ADNs to IDNs in(back and forth): - optionally mapping characters to others, on the information coming from netlocale files. - converting every character to lowercase and inserting a metadata uppercase indicator when appropriate (back and forth) as indicated in "netlocale" files. - respecting the IDNA2008 tables and using punycode We had not discussed LDN, "netlocale" files and data, maintenance, IUCG repositiry and support yet because we did not want to confuse the now nearly ended IDNA2008 debate. I will introduce them in the coming days to the punyplus documents and I_D. The table that John refers to, along with the inputs from ISP and communities, etc. will be maintained as an IUCG registry of the MDRS (multilingual and distributed referencing system) that will distribute netlocale data. We merged our MLTF research unit (Multilinguistics and Facilitation Technologies) with IUCG and have also engaged ourselves in a series of reference tables in order to attempt to exhaustively and comprehensively document the interplus/intersem (semiotic internet of thoughts) metastructure. This is in line with the ccTAGs I_D, the ISO 3166, 639, 10646, and 15924, and RFC 4646 areas, extending into the semiotic and mecalanguages space (with signs, symbols, logos, gestures, etc. as introduced in the Mapping document) and bridging them in a networked usage perspective. Since French majuscules will not be supported by IDNA2008, Project.FRA (open ontology using its namespace as a taxonomy) and Multilinc (multilinguistics test-bed) will test IDNAPLUS and report the result to the IETF towards some IDNA2010 finalization. We are currently working on the first Interplus SIS (software integrated system) prototype project. We will certainly include your suggestion and test it throught the Multilinc project. We will also keep this list well informed and let you know about the test cooperation we will need. Best jfc From jefsey@jefsey.com Thu Oct 15 06:39:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5EFE3A6949 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:39:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <6RV3TljqbbPx> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char E9 hex): Subject: R\351union TFF IPv6 [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.603 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_SIDE=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6RV3TljqbbPx for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77EA3A68DA for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:4593 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MyQXl-000168-M8; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:39:02 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:39:01 +0200 To: "comptoir@cafedu.com" From: JFC Morfin Subject: Réunion TFF IPv6 le 23 octobre - 14:30 - ENSAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_146465609==.ALT" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20091015133901.C77EA3A68DA@core3.amsl.com> Cc: Thierry Ernst , iucg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:39:04 -0000 --=====================_146465609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chers Cafédu.Compères et Cafédu.Commères, La Task Force Française IPv6, présidée par Thierry Ernst, organise une réunion de rentrée le 23 octobre, à l'ENSAM, à 14h30, (le même jour que l'AG des membres cotisants du G6). Cette réunion semble ouverte à tous puisque sont au programme : - la présence des personnes de l'ISOC France car le sujet devient branlant pour eux. - la réorganisation de la TFF - les sujets dont les participants désireraient parler. Le tout est documenté sur http://www.g6.asso.fr/index.php/2009-10-23-AG (que je n'arrive pas à connecter pour l'instant ?) Inscription obligatoire sur http://www.doodle.com/ac6i8twk3amxvveg. L'idée serait que les participants disent qu'elle est leur vision des choses en apportant de l'eau au moulin de la TFF, par exemple en parlant : - de réalisations dans ce domaine, - de projets, - d'Internet of Things, - des acteurs dans ce domaine, etc., - de votre point de vue sur le fait que les choses bougent dans le bon sens et suffisamment rapidement, ou pas. Il est indéniable que la TFF a besoin d'un coup de main pour se réorganiser. Je me suis inscrit à la réunion, mais une obligation familiale en province peut me tenir à l'écart. Cette fois-ci ce serait de mon fait ! Je crois que si nous avons perdu 15 ans IETF et 25 ans depuis que les adresses longues ont été votées par le CCITT (ITU-T) dans le cadre du plan d'adressage X.121, et que je les ai, avec Dominique Marchand, implémentées dans le monde d'alors http://intlnet.org/intl84.htm et http://intlnet.org/intlhist.htm - sauf sur Internet qui débutait sa carrière internationale, c'est que la communauté Internet a toujours considéré qu'IPv6 était un problème technique. Je le regrette d'autant que j'étais responsable des relations avec les utilisateurs (c'est-à-dire les clients réels d'IPv6) et me suis fait éjecter de la TFF parce que j'y faisais mon boulot face à des faiseurs qui n'ont rien fait. J'ai donc dû créer une liste parallèle avec le support du Chair de la TF Monde. Comprenons bien que tant qu'IPv6 ne sera pas considéré par les ISP comme une machine à glin-glin, et par les utilisateurs comme quelque chose d'au moins nécessaire en raison des nouveaux services apportés, RIEN ne bougera. D'autant que l'IETF arrive avec Cisco à une alternative raisonnable (LISP : adresses multiniveaux : une adresse IPv4 est l'adresse d'un plan d'adressage local IPv4 complet, qui lui-même peut adresser des interfaces normaux ou d'autres plans d'adressage IPv4, etc. Cela marche très simplement grâce à un empilage gigogne des paquets : quand le paquet arrive à destination, on retire son en-tête. Si on trouve une nouvelle en-tête on continue le routage. On peut en faire des choses avec ce truc là ! Ce que les patrons de Cisco ont ainsi compris (enfin ! il a fallu faire du rentre-dedans interne à Cisco pour soutenir le projet :-) ) est que ce qui intéresse les utilisateurs sont des adresses locales d'accès global. Ceci est possible avec IPv6 : c'est la seconde partie de l'adresse, nommée Interface ID. L''IUCG l'appelle "IDv6" (64bits) pour la différencier des "IDv4" (32 bits) qui sont des adresses LISP IPv4 de niveau local. Ce que planifie de faire l'IUCG est simple. C'est de documenter une présentation Internet (donc supportée par IDNA plus) dont les noms de domaine utiliseront des labels numériques IDv6 qui seront convertis en adresses locales. Une alternative serait d'envoyer l'IDv6 comme un label binaire 64 bits, ou une pseudo adresse IPv6 (128bits) qui serait mise au format IPv6 par un insert Interplus - mais ceci serait moins humainement moins lisible. Ceci veut dire que IPv6 ou pas par les ISP, Interplus apportera un support local et interlocal aux applications IPv6. Pour supporter ces applications, le pas suivant sera de documenter GRIDv4/6. C'est à dire des grilles régionales (c'est à dire accessibles de l'extérieur) pour accéder des ID locaux standardisés. Ceci rentre dans le cadre des "(S)UI" (Smart) User Interfaces - c'est à dire ce qui devrait nous faciliter l'usage des réseaux (internet et les autres) d'une manière stable que nous choisirons nous-mêmes. Je viens de proposer à l'IESG et à Vint Cerf que le support IETF en soit assuré au départ en continuation du WG/IDNABIS dont l'IETF Last Call vient juste de se terminer (avec un petit risque de remise en question totale). Ce pourrait être le WG/IDNATER pour Internet Domain Names Applications To External Regions. Bien entendu, l'utilisation du DNS comme sauveteur d'IPv6 est un risque au moment où la bataille du IANA prend un nouveau tour entre l'ICANN et les USA. L'appât ICANN sur son hameçon US gigotte et fait du lobbying pour que la signature du root (DNSSEC) relève de l'ICANN et non du DoC. Ceci semble un peu téléphoné, car le "débat" n'est plus sur l'absurdité impériale du DNSSEC (tous les serveurs de nommage synchronisés sur l'heure et la clé de Washington au 1/100 de seconde près) mais qui va en tirer les clés au sort. Dans ce méli-mélo, la solution naturelle est l'architecture ML-DNS de l'Interplus (pile de trois [quatre] couches http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-iucg-punyplus-02.txt ) du nommage et le support inclus d'IDv4 et IDv6. Cela signifie simplement que lorsque l'on rentre un nom de domaine de quelque type que ce soit tout ses formats sont reconstruits et mis à disposition des applications, protocoles et interfaces. Si des gens de la TFF veulent nous aider à développer (pas très compliqué sauf d'accrocher les DLL au bon endroit de logiciels existants) et à les tester ils sont les biens venus. jfc --=====================_146465609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chers Cafédu.Compères et Cafédu.Commères,

La Task Force Française IPv6, présidée par Thierry Ernst, organise une réunion de rentrée le 23 octobre, à l'ENSAM, à 14h30, (le même jour que l'AG des membres cotisants du G6).

Cette réunion semble ouverte à tous puisque sont au programme :

- la présence des personnes de l'ISOC France car le sujet devient branlant pour eux.
- la réorganisation de la TFF
- les sujets dont les participants désireraient parler.

Le tout est documenté sur http://www.g6.asso.fr/index.php/2009-10-23-AG (que je n'arrive pas à connecter pour l'instant ?)

Inscription obligatoire sur http://www.doodle.com/ac6i8twk3amxvveg.

L'idée serait que les participants disent qu'elle est leur vision des choses en apportant de l'eau au moulin de la TFF, par exemple en parlant :

- de réalisations dans ce domaine,
- de projets,
- d'Internet of Things,
- des acteurs dans ce domaine, etc.,
- de votre point de vue sur le fait que les choses bougent dans le bon sens et suffisamment rapidement, ou pas.

Il est indéniable que la TFF a besoin d'un coup de main pour se réorganiser. Je me suis inscrit à la réunion, mais une obligation familiale en province peut me tenir à l'écart. Cette fois-ci ce serait de mon fait !

Je crois que si nous avons perdu 15 ans IETF et 25 ans depuis que les adresses longues ont été votées par le CCITT (ITU-T) dans le cadre du plan d'adressage X.121, et que je les ai, avec Dominique Marchand, implémentées dans le monde d'alors http://intlnet.org/intl84.htm   et http://intlnet.org/intlhist.htm - sauf sur Internet qui débutait sa carrière internationale, c'est que la communauté Internet a toujours considéré qu'IPv6 était un problème technique.

Je le regrette d'autant que j'étais responsable des relations avec les utilisateurs (c'est-à-dire les clients réels d'IPv6) et me suis fait éjecter de la TFF parce que j'y faisais mon boulot face à des faiseurs qui n'ont rien fait. J'ai donc dû créer une liste parallèle avec le support du Chair de la TF Monde. Comprenons bien que tant qu'IPv6 ne sera pas considéré par les ISP comme une machine à glin-glin, et par les utilisateurs comme quelque chose d'au moins nécessaire en raison des nouveaux services apportés, RIEN ne bougera.

D'autant que l'IETF arrive avec Cisco à une alternative raisonnable (LISP  : adresses multiniveaux : une adresse IPv4 est l'adresse d'un plan d'adressage local IPv4 complet, qui lui-même peut adresser des interfaces normaux ou d'autres plans d'adressage IPv4, etc. Cela marche très simplement grâce à un empilage gigogne des paquets : quand le paquet arrive à destination, on retire son en-tête. Si on trouve une nouvelle en-tête on continue le routage. On peut en faire des choses avec ce truc là !

Ce que les patrons de Cisco ont ainsi compris (enfin ! il a fallu faire du rentre-dedans interne à Cisco pour soutenir le projet :-) ) est que ce qui intéresse les utilisateurs sont des adresses locales d'accès global. Ceci est possible avec IPv6 : c'est la seconde partie de l'adresse, nommée Interface ID. L''IUCG l'appelle "IDv6" (64bits) pour la différencier des "IDv4" (32 bits) qui sont des adresses LISP IPv4 de niveau local.


Ce que planifie de faire l'IUCG est simple. C'est de documenter une présentation Internet (donc supportée par IDNA plus) dont les noms de domaine utiliseront des labels numériques IDv6 qui seront convertis en adresses locales. Une alternative serait d'envoyer l'IDv6 comme un label binaire 64 bits, ou une pseudo adresse IPv6 (128bits) qui serait mise au format IPv6 par un  insert Interplus - mais ceci serait moins humainement moins lisible.

Ceci veut dire que IPv6 ou pas par les ISP, Interplus apportera un support local et interlocal aux applications IPv6. Pour supporter ces applications, le pas suivant sera de documenter GRIDv4/6. C'est à dire des grilles régionales (c'est à dire accessibles de l'extérieur) pour accéder des ID locaux standardisés. Ceci rentre dans le cadre des "(S)UI" (Smart) User Interfaces - c'est à dire ce qui devrait nous faciliter l'usage des réseaux (internet et les autres) d'une manière stable que nous choisirons nous-mêmes. Je viens de proposer à l'IESG et à Vint Cerf que le support IETF en soit assuré au départ en continuation du WG/IDNABIS dont l'IETF Last Call vient juste de se terminer (avec un petit risque de remise en question totale).  Ce pourrait être le WG/IDNATER pour Internet Domain Names Applications To External Regions.

Bien entendu, l'utilisation du DNS comme sauveteur d'IPv6 est un risque au moment où la bataille du IANA prend un nouveau tour entre l'ICANN et les USA. L'appât ICANN sur son hameçon US gigotte et fait du lobbying pour que la signature du root (DNSSEC) relève de l'ICANN et non du DoC. Ceci semble un peu téléphoné, car le "débat" n'est plus sur l'absurdité impériale du DNSSEC (tous les serveurs de nommage synchronisés sur l'heure et la clé de Washington au 1/100 de seconde près) mais qui va en tirer les clés au sort. 

Dans ce méli-mélo, la solution naturelle est l'architecture ML-DNS de l'Interplus (pile de trois [quatre] couches http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-iucg-punyplus-02.txt ) du nommage et le support inclus d'IDv4 et IDv6. Cela signifie simplement que lorsque l'on rentre un nom de domaine de quelque type que ce soit tout ses formats sont reconstruits et mis à disposition des applications, protocoles et interfaces. Si des gens de la TFF veulent nous aider à développer (pas très compliqué sauf d'accrocher les DLL au bon endroit de logiciels existants) et à les tester ils sont les biens venus.

jfc




 



--=====================_146465609==.ALT-- From jefsey@jefsey.com Thu Oct 15 14:47:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0FF3A68E7 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.857, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjLGbGKCeEri for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3343A681F for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eurolab.net2.nerim.net ([213.41.175.161]:3462 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MyYAG-00071F-6T; Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:47:16 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:47:15 +0200 To: Margaret Wasserman From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: References: <4AD4DC84.1090900@sandstorm.net> <9D2F41C9-FDD4-439F-BB89-4B86F7063582@google.com> <381C297CB1B319CE832E6D9F@PST.JCK.COM> <7399030A-2E77-4724-B1CE-8B1994C24405@sandstorm.net> <200910151047.n9FAlhn0096969@sirocco.sandstorm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20091015214723.2A3343A681F@core3.amsl.com> Cc: Pete Resnick , Vint Cerf , John C Klensin , iucg@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault Subject: Re: [iucg] [OPS-DIR] Review of draft-ietf-idnabis-protocol-16.txt X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:47:23 -0000 Dear Margaret, I do not understand much of your response, but I do understand that John has better answered your concerns than I did. Good! Problem with mailing lists is that one does not know who is actually in copy and what is answered to who. And why. At 19:13 15/10/2009, Margaret Wasserman wrote: >In this case, I am at a loss to understand your resistance to >explaining how registries are supposed to do what the document >requires them to do. I thought I explained it. >Publicly threatening to appeal in order to squelch discussion is, in >my opinion, inimicable to (i.e. hostile to and incompatible with) an >open consensus process. Not inimicable at all. Just neutrally informative as it was the only possibility I was left with since the LC is closed. Cheers. jfc From jefsey@jefsey.com Sat Oct 17 02:45:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062633A686D for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:45:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.76 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.758, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7TGps4F+Rgkk for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4E53A6895 for ; Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 89-158-60-40.rev.dartybox.com ([89.158.60.40]:1242 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mz5qm-0001LU-6l for iucg@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:45:24 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:45:10 +0200 To: iucg@ietf.org From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1720734==.ALT" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20091017094520.9A4E53A6895@core3.amsl.com> Subject: [iucg] A very sad news, X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:45:22 -0000 --=====================_1720734==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a shocking news for us all. Francis was a cofounder of the MLTF and a participant to the IUCG. His recent mission for the ITU on CLASSES was an important issue we supported. jfc >De : Ian Peter [mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com] >Envoyé : samedi 17 octobre 2009 04:56 >À : 'governance@lists.cpsr.org'; Gov@wsis-gov.org >Objet : [governance] Sad news re Francis Muguet > >Friends, I have just received the following email. I have no further >details, and this must be a shock to all of us. I would >particularly urge those of you closer to Francis's immediate work to >get in touch with his family as requested below. This is sad news indeed. > >Hey, >My name is Flore MUGUET, I'm the daughter of Francis MUGUET, I'm >contacting you because you are his friend on Facebook. My father >died in Paris couple days ago and I just found out Wednesday night, >because I was worried that I wasn't answering my emails. It's hard >for me to realize, it' s happening so fast... My dad was the only >member of the family his side that I fully loved, trusted and >respected. On the other side I just have my mother. His work was so >important for him, I'm so sad I didn't accomplished it.. >I need a lawyer for advices, so If you know one, please contact me. >Please get in touch with me at >danceflore@hotmail.com or +33 (0)6 82 30 26 >70 for the funerals. I would like to have a lot of people coming.. > > >I have passed on to Flore condolences on behalf on those of us >working with Francis on Internet Governance issues, but I am sure >the family would like to hear from those who have worked closely >with Francis. Flore also asked me about Francis's work and travel >movements – I did mention to her IGF and also his current project >with ITU – but I don't have contacts for that work, others might >like to pass details on. > >Sad news indeed. Francis was an original thinker with a great >devotion to these issues. It's hard to believe that he is no longer with us. > >Ian Peter >From: "Tijani BEN JEMAA" >It's indeed a very sad piece of news. >Françis was one of the very active and committed civil society >actors in WSIS, and especially in its second phase. >Françis always had his own opinion, but never was negative. Our >views weren't always the same, and yet, we were really good friends. >I feel too sad. >I can't forget his behaviour when Jean Louis had his health problem >in ITU in Geneva. > >Now, he is away….. It's a nasty situation >At 11:16 17/10/2009, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang wrote: >Dear Flore > >I am shocked to hear from the passing away of our good great friend >Francis. I can not believe it. > >I know Francis sind 2002 when we worked together within the >framework of the UN World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS) >in Geneva. He was such an active and courageous thinker, always on >the side of the "small people", fighting for individual human rights >and innovative technological developments. He stimulated so many >discussions with his sometimes unusal interventions and >perspectives. But he was a friend whom you could trusted, both in >the WSIS process and, after 2006, in the process of the UN sponsored >Internet Governance Forum (IGF). > >In the IGF, he was the founding father of a new "IGF Dynamic >Coalition on the Internet of Things" which we established together >in Hyderabad/India in December 2008. Just recently we worked >together in the preparation of an EU expert workshop on the Internet >of Things in Leipzig/Germany, in June 2009. He made very >constructive, energetic and valuable contributions in this workshop. >His paper was probably one of his last international >presentations.http://www.guarder.net/kleinwaechter/images/euronf/muguet.pdf > >We had a lof of plans how to use all the ideas to move forward with >the "IGF Dynamic Coalition on the Internet of Things" towards the >forthcoming 4th IGF in Sharm el Sheikh/Egypt in November 2009. Now I >have to learn that Francis will not with us in Sharm. What a sad >news. I will ask in Sharm el Sheikh the participants of the IGF to >give a moment of silence to Francis to remember a good friend and a >great Internet Governance activist. Take my deep condolences. > >Prof. Wolfgang Kleinwächter >University of Aarhus --=====================_1720734==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a shocking news for us all. Francis was a cofounder of the MLTF and a participant to the IUCG. His recent mission for the ITU on CLASSES was an important issue we supported.
jfc

De : Ian Peter [ mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com]
Envoyé : samedi 17 octobre 2009 04:56
À : 'governance@lists.cpsr.org'; Gov@wsis-gov.org
Objet : [governance] Sad news re Francis Muguet
 
Friends, I have just received the following email. I have no further details, and this must be a shock to all of us.  I would particularly urge those of you closer to Francis’s immediate work to get in touch with his family as requested below. This is sad news indeed.

Hey,
My name is Flore MUGUET, I'm the daughter of Francis MUGUET, I'm contacting you because you are his friend on Facebook. My father died in Paris couple days ago and I just found out Wednesday night, because I was worried that I wasn't answering my emails. It's hard for me to realize, it' s happening so fast... My dad was the only member of the family his side that I fully loved, trusted and respected. On the other side I just have my mother. His work was so important for him, I'm so sad I didn't accomplished it..
I need a lawyer for advices, so If you know one, please contact me.
Please get in touch with me at danceflore@hotmail.com or +33 (0)6 82 30 26 70 for the funerals. I would like to have a lot of people coming..


I have passed on to Flore condolences on behalf on those of us working with Francis on Internet Governance issues, but I am sure the family would like to hear from those who have worked closely with Francis. Flore also asked me about Francis’s work and travel movements – I did mention  to her IGF and also his current project with ITU – but I don’t have contacts for that work, others might like to pass details on.

Sad news indeed. Francis was an original thinker with a great devotion to these issues. It’s hard to believe that he is no longer with us.

Ian Peter

From: "Tijani BEN JEMAA" <tijani.benjemaa@planet.tn>
It’s indeed a very sad piece of news.
Françis was one of the very active and committed civil society actors in WSIS, and especially in its second phase.
Françis always had his own opinion, but never was negative. Our views weren’t always the same, and yet, we were really good friends. I feel too sad.
I can’t forget his behaviour when Jean Louis had his health problem in ITU in Geneva.
 
Now, he is away….. It’s a nasty situation

At 11:16 17/10/2009, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang wrote:
Dear Flore
 
I am shocked to hear from the passing away of our good great friend Francis. I can not believe it.
 
I know Francis sind 2002 when we worked together within the framework of the UN World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS) in Geneva. He was such an active and courageous thinker, always on the side of the "small people", fighting for individual human rights and innovative technological developments. He stimulated so many discussions with his sometimes unusal interventions and perspectives. But he was a friend whom you could trusted, both in the WSIS process and, after 2006, in the process of the UN sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF).
 
In the IGF, he was the founding father of a new "IGF Dynamic Coalition on the Internet of Things" which we established together in Hyderabad/India in December 2008. Just recently we worked together in the preparation of an EU expert workshop on the Internet of Things in Leipzig/Germany, in June 2009. He made very constructive, energetic and valuable contributions in this workshop. His paper was probably one of his last international presentations.http://www.guarder.net/kleinwaechter/images/euronf/muguet.pdf
 
We had a lof of plans how to use all the ideas to move forward with the "IGF Dynamic Coalition on the Internet of Things" towards the forthcoming 4th IGF in Sharm el Sheikh/Egypt in November 2009. Now I have to learn that Francis will not with us in Sharm. What a sad news. I will ask in Sharm el Sheikh the participants of the IGF to give a moment of silence to Francis to remember a good friend and a great Internet Governance activist. Take my deep condolences.
 
Prof. Wolfgang Kleinwächter
University of Aarhus
--=====================_1720734==.ALT-- From jefsey@jefsey.com Tue Oct 27 13:45:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1643A6998 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S1QubPzbLSK7 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C203A6844 for ; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.126.94-79.rev.gaoland.net ([79.94.126.207]:2791 helo=jfcmh.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N2svN-0005U5-6N; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:45:49 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:45:41 +0100 To: iucg@ietf.org From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20091027204536.B8C203A6844@core3.amsl.com> Cc: danceflore@hotmail.com Subject: [iucg] Francis Muguet's X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:45:37 -0000 Dear Colleagues, I foreward you a mail from Flore Muguet, the daughter of the IUCG Member Francis Muguet who passed away ten days ago. May I recall to those who did not know him, that he was a Dr. in Chimestry, an active defensor of the an open dissemination of research results with an important impact on WSIS positions in that area, and a very active member of the IGF civil society. He has campaigned for a long for the use of Classes in DNS and was recently requested a study on the matter by the ITU. An competent and dedicated supporter of the practical support of the languistic cyber diveristy he was a participant to the creation of the MLTF (multilinguistics and technologies of facilitation) that grand fathered and joined our very young IUCG. jfc >My dad funerals Francis MUGUET, will be Saturday October 31 at 10am >at the East Chapel of Pere Lachaise Cemetery. >I'm so sad that he left this earth so fast and I'll be glad for him >if a lot of people are coming.. > >Thank you, > >Flore MUGUET >danceflore@hotmail.com