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To: 'Elisabeth Blanconil' , William Drake Thread-Topic: [discuss] Conference: ICANN and Global Internet Governance: The Road to Sao Paulo, and Beyond, Singapore 21 March 2014 Thread-Index: AQHPMuGlJ3s3+rf+YUmi7mj0UfOFiZrIv+kA Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:17:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <50BEA799-0981-4F50-AE9E-A6A2A7359946@gmail.com> <03673.114022605581000511@us-mta-7.us.mimecast.lan> In-Reply-To: <03673.114022605581000511@us-mta-7.us.mimecast.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.180.2.100] x-exclaimer-md-config: 35a2a35a-5651-415b-b3fc-0e9c17e2e02e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MC-Unique: x/iVBumTSwuQ8Cg+0XnGAA-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF2721988A941USPDCMAIL002Pre_" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/hXrcpijuJFGkbfhGa-AXQOh3RXk X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:17:15 -0800 Cc: "discuss@1net.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] 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bGU9Ik1BUkdJTjogMGluIDBpbiAwcHQiIGFsaWduPSJyaWdodCI+PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT0iMSI+RGlz Y2xhaW1lciBWZXJzaW9uIFJTLlVTLjIwLjEwLjAwPC9mb250PjwvcD4NCjwvZm9udD48L2ZvbnQ+ DQo8cD48L3A+DQo8cD48L3A+DQo8cD48L3A+DQo8cD48L3A+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF2721988A941USPDCMAIL002Pre_-- From nobody Mon Mar 3 09:17:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F55A1A0234 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:21:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g317nLJKx6wC for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-03-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7731A0104 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from xarin.arin.net ([192.149.252.135] helo=[192.168.36.156]) by mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WJ3i1-000DtW-Nf; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:21:17 +0000 X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 192.149.252.135 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX1+PxX9gqPuILma+icNUUTot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: <20140227151201.AE06D213694@smtp2.arin.net> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 11:20:45 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71C588C8-5121-4C5D-B220-8D350ED5CE50@istaff.org> References: <50BEA799-0981-4F50-AE9E-A6A2A7359946@gmail.com> <03673.114022605581000511@us-mta-7.us.mimecast.lan> <20140227151201.AE06D213694@smtp2.arin.net> To: Elisabeth Blanconil X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/rrvTuqtqlowIoNY1kW9_Dt-ja_A X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:17:16 -0800 Cc: William Drake , "Shatan, Gregory S." , "discuss@1net.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Conference: ICANN and Global Internet Governance: The Road to Sao Paulo, and Beyond, Singapore 21 March 2014 X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:21:24 -0000 On Feb 27, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Elisabeth Blanconil = wrote: > No punishment but kind concern about the problem you reported with our = "VGNIC-speak". Hebe -=20 =20 I will admit to similar issues with regarding the abundance of VGNIC terminology when it comes to postings on the 1net discuss list. I do realize that some of the "new" terminology refers to existing Internet concepts (only more generalized) but believe in the end that it may be inhibiting ability of folks to understand the specific recommendations that the IUCG are making when it comes to ICANN, IANA functions, etc. It might significantly improve understanding of those on the 1net = discuss list if the IUCG community could use existing ICANN and Internet = governance terminology for its input on the list. If this isn't possible, feel = free to disregard, but presently the lack of specific suggestions using = common vernacular may be inhibiting actual communication of ideas. Thanks! /John Disclaimer: My views alone. From nobody Mon Mar 3 09:17:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967BA1A0131 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:44:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LB2___WVaWHT for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9966D1A00ED for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from xarin.arin.net ([192.149.252.135] helo=[192.168.36.156]) by mho-02-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WJ9gp-000GY2-9q; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:44:27 +0000 X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 192.149.252.135 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX18qbT5ouINvXxFcYCaa3HR2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: <20140227172842.02335213691@smtp2.arin.net> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:43:55 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A4DC67A-9526-441F-B1F8-40A8D7B6BBBE@istaff.org> References: <50BEA799-0981-4F50-AE9E-A6A2A7359946@gmail.com> <03673.114022605581000511@us-mta-7.us.mimecast.lan> <20140227151201.AE06D213694@smtp2.arin.net> <71C588C8-5121-4C5D-B220-8D350ED5CE50@istaff.org> <20140227172842.02335213691@smtp2.arin.net> To: Elisabeth Blanconil X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/-DrtTFVeI5c8Id0EMoCbcJ5zgTg X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:17:17 -0800 Cc: "discuss@1net.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Conference: ICANN and Global Internet Governance: The Road to Sao Paulo, and Beyond, Singapore 21 March 2014 X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:44:32 -0000 On Feb 27, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Elisabeth Blanconil = wrote: > ... > Through its mission creep in the early 2000s ICANN has imposed itself = as being "THE" Internet Governance. This is an obvious BUG that is to be = fixed. > We know how to fix it since most of us use the internet for years = without using anything from ICANN. This is not because we oppose ICANN, = this is just that ICANN is just a VGNIC as others ... Good to know. > ... > In a nutshell we perfectly understand that some people wants to keep = their 1983 terminology, but we are afraid they will only discuss a 1983 = IG and not our IUser 2014 IG.=20 Elizabeth -=20 =20 Those interested in the just the "ICANN VGNIC" should be able to = discuss its governance=20 solely using existing terminology if so desired, yes? =20 I honestly cannot discern any indication of interest by those on the = 1net discuss list to=20 expanding the discussion to include governance questions applicable to = VGNICS in general (as opposed to simply discussion of governance aspects of the "ICANN = VGNIC") =20 Since a basic principle your VGN model that user empowerment, i.e."let = people organize things=20 the way they want it" then by definition those interested in just the = ICANN VGNIC governance=20 discussions do not have to adopt your terminology, as it lies beyond = scope of their chosen=20 model. Have you considered forming a list for those who wish to = discuss VGNICS and IUse in general? Thanks! /John Disclaimer: My views alone. From nobody Mon Mar 3 09:17:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385B91A02C6 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:17:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hkEeA8oMjUw for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E431A020A for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 169.69.176.95.rev.sfr.net ([95.176.69.169]:62260 helo=GHM-SAM.dot.dj) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WJC50-0001OJ-5L; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:17:34 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:12:06 +0100 To: John Curran ,Elisabeth Blanconil From: Michel Gauthier In-Reply-To: <8A4DC67A-9526-441F-B1F8-40A8D7B6BBBE@istaff.org> References: <50BEA799-0981-4F50-AE9E-A6A2A7359946@gmail.com> <03673.114022605581000511@us-mta-7.us.mimecast.lan> <20140227151201.AE06D213694@smtp2.arin.net> <71C588C8-5121-4C5D-B220-8D350ED5CE50@istaff.org> <20140227172842.02335213691@smtp2.arin.net> <8A4DC67A-9526-441F-B1F8-40A8D7B6BBBE@istaff.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - telepresse.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: intl+dot.dj/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/jn7_qDLvGl423DwTMmwK4-kRHpE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:17:19 -0800 Cc: "discuss@1net.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Conference: ICANN and Global Internet Governance: The Road to Sao Paulo, and Beyond, Singapore 21 March 2014 X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 01:17:38 -0000 John, I follow that VGN issue for some times now. There is absolutely nothing new. Some CS people felt squeezed by the US in Dubai, the ICANN monopolistic attitude, and the resulting risk that they might settle a multilateral US/TNC/BRICS deal to their detriment. They only reminded the way the Internet was historically and technically planned, designed, built, and documented. And that had nothing to do with ICANN and RIRs, but with "the internet law", i.e the source code and RFCs. What is interesting is the ICANN Community members' attitude. My feeling was that their position would be to ignore it since it does not go in the ICANN way. May be a contradiction or two by IETF ICANN supporters. I was wrong: ICANN chose to give their reminder a big publicity through clumsy mails of ICANN community known members. Techies stayed silent. (Now I reported it, this may change, but this would be too late and counter-productive). This was read by some Govs, Private and CS stakeholders as "not politically correct but true": ICANN is worried and does not know how to react without over reacting. There is no doubt, the old VGN concept has been now revived and there is a growing interest among the three stakeholders groups for understanding what is the political, business, IUse opportunity. VGNs are definitly now an IG issue. The VGNIC concept seems to be more complex as this is not the Jon Postel NIC concept, but the ICANN techno-political vision. A better QoS for the users, a political independance vote, and the emergence of a new namespace economy aside of the ICANN economy. Business, political and personal opportunities for "legal" and "Libre" TLDs testing and most probably deployment with several new DNS software projects. I heard bout several of them already by OpenSource people. Then, there is the VGNICSet or System. It goes farther than ICANN. From what I gather it is simply the concept that you (IUser, FLOSS, Corporate, Gov, etc.) are in command of your networking capacities: what do you want new? how can we organize togetehr to help each other to get it, in using what is available. In a way which is reliable, sure, secure, protected, and cheap. i.e. in an Internet R&D way. At 23:43 27/02/2014, John Curran wrote: >On Feb 27, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Elisabeth Blanconil wrote: > > Through its mission creep in the early 2000s ICANN has imposed > itself as being "THE" Internet Governance. This is an obvious BUG > that is to be fixed. We know how to fix it since most of us use > the internet for years without using anything from ICANN. This is > not because we oppose ICANN, this is just that ICANN is just a > VGNIC as others ... > >Good to know. > > > In a nutshell we perfectly understand that some people wants to > keep their 1983 terminology, but we are afraid they will only > discuss a 1983 IG and not our IUser 2014 IG. This is a very important point because: >Those interested in the just the "ICANN VGNIC" should be able to >discuss its governance solely using existing terminology if so desired, yes? John, this means that these people should be able to only discuss the ICANN governance in place of the Internet Governance? >I honestly cannot discern any indication of interest by those on the >1net discuss list to expanding the discussion to include governance >questions applicable to VGNICS in general (as opposed to simply >discussion of governance aspects of the "ICANN VGNIC"). You therefore confirm that you think that this list does to want to discuss the whole Internet Governance issues, which by essence includes the relations between VGNICs, but want to restrict it to the sole ICANN VGNIC? >Since a basic principle your VGN model that user empowerment, >i.e."let people organize things the way they want it" then by >definition those interested in just the ICANN VGNIC governance >discussions do not have to adopt your terminology, as it lies beyond >scope of their chosen model. This is what Elisabeth says. They chose not to discuss the 2014 internet governance, but the 1998 one (Elisabeth: people like Marylin Cade and others joined the debate after the Green/White Papers and the mission creep episode: as you noted it, Joe Sims did not created ICANN to be involved any Internet Governance issue. >Have you considered forming a list for those who wish to discuss >VGNICS and IUse in general? John, from what I clearly gathers there are two published existing lists considering governance issues: 1. iucg@ietf.org: it is mainly interested in proceeding with making sure that the coming Govs or large private VGNICs projects are carried without disturbing the internet (i.e. respecting ICP-3) and that some common coordination can be discussed. I understand that the time frame is a first IETF Draft by September. 2. discuss@1net.org: it is about the Internet governance, i.e. about the VGNICS intergovernance. In considering the list of participants I noted that ICANN is represented, I did not spot an ORSN participant. I identfied members of several national and regional VGNICs projects (or existing national security operators). There are probably some VGNICs individual or personal projects interested in the HomeRoot experimentation. 3. JFC Morfin has clearly indicated that he will start discussing the HomeRoot experimentation (that should be the core of the expertise gathering to support VGNICS) next week, then on March 12, with a OpenCamp meeting in July. From what I gather from his French mailing list (comptoir@cafedu.com), there will be an HomeRoot.org site and mailing list in the coming days. More details in French for my associates. M G From nobody Mon Mar 3 17:34:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBDB1A0265 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:34:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sPf6iSpKVKIO for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5ECE1A027C for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=57997 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WKeFe-0003OD-9d for iucg@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 17:34:34 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 02:34:04 +0100 To: iucg@ietf.org From: Jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/h63NAtUkmdvLR1UWB8rCX_kIZ78 Subject: [iucg] tonight meeting X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 01:34:39 -0000 We had a meeting this evening at my Libre ISP. The VGN/VGNIC issue was discussed. as foreseen. One of the interesting inputs I was able to quote was David Conrad's position issued in a today mail: "there is nothing wrong with having multiple root servers or server systems. What matters is the namespace, that is the universe of all possible names. How that namespace is implemented, whether it is on the "traditional" name servers or ORSN or via ISP's resolvers mirroring the root zone or my copying the root zone and installing it on my laptop, is irrelevant (particularly given DNSSEC). Where things break down is when people want _different_ namespaces at the same time they expect those namespaces to interoperate and not leak." NB. David Conrad has been an acknowledged IANA Manager and has several times opposed my internet governance concepts. I certainly trust his expertise. There could not be a clearer explanation of the HomeRoot and VGNICs context. The debate lead to the more general approach that is documented in the mail I copy I sent on the internetgovtech mailing list. Actually what was discussed was to resume the "interbox" project, I had to interrupt, in including the perspective a VGN operator. 1. the http://vgnics.net was appreciated. The logo "to be at the helm of his own digital world" also. So, let be it! 2. the idea of the VGNICSuite and of VGNICSociety were discussed. The incorporation of a non-profit VGNICSociety has been supported. It would be initially a structure supporting a secretariat, etc. 3. I have asked for some local possible hosting of the site. 4. the http://vgnics.net/vgnics/index.php/Project_SV2B will be attempted. The idea is to conceive it as a prototype "VGN supervisor" interbox for a very local place (there are 750 inhabitants) to have a concrete example, and a good motivation. The focus will be on the HomeRoot aspects. The ORSN compilation of the top zone data will be discussed. The IUCG work on the DNS generalization seems to be of interest. The priority is to draft an SV2B road map. I am now going to introduce the project on my French list for the discussion next week. Best jfc From nobody Mon Mar 3 19:38:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E0E1A0313 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:38:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oqeMkSK7xmKb for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ea0-x230.google.com (mail-ea0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c01::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081391A0320 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ea0-f176.google.com with SMTP id o10so54642eaj.21 for ; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:38:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=qx52Xrs7BFB2YDAAfhd/b85XW8guby6ikv3NF9RWdMY=; b=h6GcJFE3CDa+8zZ6XCx2IqarcyrcV8NMWObxo7XtRfWuDw5awoVQWTk7itdZSIGo2z NA+mGRvZuV/G3B7QvMpy5ht8CwaIljV5iVyp0Oalb4IEL60Vo9d0twa9Xi5faLiHz35x bBxHhJ60A1/4B3dJmrmZbGxa9D/9veexF/dXDp0myOXAGzTn4+ZQjjn1c2zNOigG1Bvy pNYTmJo+tZQZ0RCIhHqtE1E0RPV8Y13Co+IXvmEmw34iznO8/QFkYIszWxU3MZDQCY4c SyjGnyPnuMUNY5yms1I5dUIuBX3sVYF7h5lX9JoxncBg6Lo9eX5WgfoG9LuN/qYBL9Mu VuFw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.14.2.66 with SMTP id 42mr36513153eee.24.1393904302503; Mon, 03 Mar 2014 19:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.179.201 with HTTP; Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:38:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140304013442.445911A0283@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20140304013442.445911A0283@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 04:38:22 +0100 Message-ID: From: jean-michel bernier de portzamparc To: internet users contributing group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b62440ccd3a0404f3bfa244 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/XSFcabAQ59NjMwgLHsUCzrxXnKk Subject: Re: [iucg] tonight meeting X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 03:38:29 -0000 --047d7b62440ccd3a0404f3bfa244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have accepted to take care of the http://vgnics.net/mdrs/index.php/VGN_Concepts page. The initial part in French is only a Draft we have to review and translate. Any input welcome. Portzamparc 2014-03-04 2:34 GMT+01:00 Jefsey : > We had a meeting this evening at my Libre ISP. The VGN/VGNIC issue was > discussed. as foreseen. > > One of the interesting inputs I was able to quote was David Conrad's > position issued in a today mail: "there is nothing wrong with having > multiple root servers or server systems. What matters is the namespace, > that is the universe of all possible names. How that namespace is > implemented, whether it is on the "traditional" name servers or ORSN or via > ISP's resolvers mirroring the root zone or my copying the root zone and > installing it on my laptop, is irrelevant (particularly given DNSSEC). > Where things break down is when people want _different_ namespaces at the > same time they expect those namespaces to interoperate and not leak." > NB. David Conrad has been an acknowledged IANA Manager and has several > times opposed my internet governance concepts. I certainly trust his > expertise. > > There could not be a clearer explanation of the HomeRoot and VGNICs > context. > > The debate lead to the more general approach that is documented in the > mail I copy I sent on the internetgovtech mailing list. Actually what was > discussed was to resume the "interbox" project, I had to interrupt, in > including the perspective a VGN operator. > > 1. the http://vgnics.net was appreciated. The logo "to be at the helm of > his own digital world" also. So, let be it! > 2. the idea of the VGNICSuite and of VGNICSociety were discussed. The > incorporation of a non-profit VGNICSociety has been supported. It would be > initially a structure supporting a secretariat, etc. > 3. I have asked for some local possible hosting of the site. > 4. the http://vgnics.net/vgnics/index.php/Project_SV2B will be attempted. > The idea is to conceive it as a prototype "VGN supervisor" interbox for a > very local place (there are 750 inhabitants) to have a concrete example, > and a good motivation. > > The focus will be on the HomeRoot aspects. The ORSN compilation of the top > zone data will be discussed. > > The IUCG work on the DNS generalization seems to be of interest. The > priority is to draft an SV2B road map. > I am now going to introduce the project on my French list for the > discussion next week. > > Best > jfc > > > _______________________________________________ > iucg mailing list > iucg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg > --047d7b62440ccd3a0404f3bfa244 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have accepted to take care of the http://vgnics.net/mdrs/index.php/V= GN_Concepts page. The initial part in French is only a Draft we have to= review and translate. Any input welcome.
Portzamparc


2014-03-04 2:34 GMT+01:00 Jefsey <jefsey@jefsey.com><= /span>:
We had a meeting this evening at my Libre IS= P. The VGN/VGNIC issue was discussed. as foreseen.

One of the interesting inputs I was able to quote was David Conrad's po= sition issued in a today mail: "there is nothing wrong with having mul= tiple root servers or server systems. =A0What matters is the namespace, tha= t is the universe of all possible names. How that namespace is implemented,= whether it is on the "traditional" name servers or ORSN or via I= SP's resolvers mirroring the root zone or my copying the root zone and = installing it on my laptop, is irrelevant (particularly given DNSSEC). =A0W= here things break down is when people want _different_ namespaces at the sa= me time they expect those namespaces to interoperate and not leak." NB. David Conrad has been an acknowledged IANA Manager and has several time= s opposed my internet governance concepts. I certainly trust his expertise.=

There could not be a clearer explanation of the HomeRoot and VGNICs context= .

The debate lead to the more general approach that is documented in the mail= I copy I sent on the internetgovtech mailing list. Actually what was discu= ssed was to resume the "interbox" project, I had to interrupt, in= including the perspective a VGN operator.

1. the http://vgnics.net was appreciated. The logo "to be at the helm of his own digital worl= d" also. So, let be it!
2. the idea of the VGNICSuite and of VGNICSociety were discussed. The incor= poration of a non-profit VGNICSociety has been supported. It would be initi= ally a structure supporting a secretariat, etc.
3. I have asked for some local possible hosting of the site.
4. the http://vgnics.net/vgnics/index.php/Project_SV2B will= be attempted. The idea is to conceive it as a prototype "VGN supervis= or" interbox for a very local place (there are 750 inhabitants) to hav= e a concrete example, and a good motivation.

The focus will be on the HomeRoot aspects. The ORSN compilation of the top = zone data will be discussed.

The IUCG work on the DNS generalization seems to be of interest. The priori= ty is to draft an SV2B road map.
I am now going to introduce the project on my French list for the discussio= n next week.

Best
jfc


_______________________________________________
iucg mailing list
iucg@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iucg

--047d7b62440ccd3a0404f3bfa244-- From nobody Tue Mar 4 16:49:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC6C1A0088 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 16:49:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.741 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZNwXp0YEdwWw for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 16:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB411A0061 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 16:49:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vgnic.org; s=default; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Cc:Subject:From:To:Date; bh=IPCtpzoSPG6qnE+6a6mb3+luRfs3UOiegJjEpQ4SCkA=; b=hPw5oL4cPY0Z6THneV+/hWZdbWHh3oYsqKkRm6i+wRGHgFvoZxQGqdnw54YELdhVaWfbd68FlSish6ZdZWv4iefU1ZcG60QVfZtzLjaW46P+8uJT/B7bWgaI6xAS5+/6FzB8qv5jvsvRuq5LZNnSOkt2TJe7mZkId5jpotZM5PM=; Received: from 5.66.176.95.rev.sfr.net ([95.176.66.5]:54794 helo=Morfin-PC.vgnic.org) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WL01B-0005YG-8t; Tue, 04 Mar 2014 16:49:05 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 01:48:45 +0100 To: "Louis Pouzin (well)" , Mike Roberts From: Elisabeth Blanconil In-Reply-To: References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - vgnic.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: info+vgnic.org/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/OD-DJq1MryQo1PhGj_f1l-gukGo Cc: "discuss@0net.org" , "discuss@1net.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:49:11 -0000 At 00:14 05/03/2014, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote: >This survey is a miserable mascarade. Why waste time discussing it ? The whole thing is a mascarade. At 01:00 05/03/2014, Mike Roberts wrote: >I'm not sure we've dumped enough on the survey yet. What about >"Dastardly abomination!" That's from one of the Sherlock Holmes >episodes on PBS. >Seriously, there have been sound and constructive contributions to >this forum. It undermines the credibility of that hard work to have >foolishness appear at the last minute. For them it is an intellectual academic game :-). Let them enjoy it, get T&L paid, dream they save and rule the world, etc. They want to constrain States with such jokes. Folks, States are where humanity has located "sovereignty", i.e. the legitimacy to use force up to violence if this becomes necessary. Anything that does proceed from that fundamental premise is called utopia. Now, we participated and teased because we wanted to be sure we would not miss a good idea (we found none) and check the soundness of ours (we only got pertinent confirmations of David Conrad). Now, there is work to be seriously done to deploy the innovation our national industries, jobs, security and development need. If some want to discuss their practical participation to the enhanced cooperation it calls for, they are welcome on discuss@0net.org (http://0net.org). "0net" stands for a 0 blahblah governance of a neutral, transparent, reliable network. Not something @ M$ 12 a year the sysops. Cheers Hebe From nobody Wed Mar 5 08:14:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5B01A0213 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:22:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 567BnQ9DAKIa for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-x22f.google.com (mail-vc0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B4A1A00F2 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id il7so744817vcb.34 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 01:22:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dYM/MbFYr3cPnTzyyuuTNnyjM3zDEOaukQ5YVGF42w4=; b=LIgbsb9bCSJOfpnBbrGieRYgycrpXHrUpOSvvgJ10LFjfoKqH5fw6T+s5r962l1Zo1 STuxxPgBq9oxdUGTO2AxS1+abP8eJpTOi8AO1x77U2H+f+IgUaPjs+tj91cm+jYIqUBL XM++ooIrPG8aFnE+d0I0KjgmU7I7NI58nLNisNmA9wikanhKkDzGMcYRP/yTI8pccs7G dj3BaByJnaKPNCnbzpLG2uUw6Lf8fP+/uJWTMcyGCUUEYItgX/cJmd/v/87XIhs0Kxxd jBcYiYDQCbZi7P2VNFAZb/rHH1ipeyra8EefC/CiqkoMY8e5/ydKsjIVKPL/V0JQrm7T B22w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.95.161 with SMTP id dl1mr3684311veb.21.1394011366858; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 01:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.23.40 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.23.40 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:22:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:22:46 +0000 Message-ID: From: Chris Grundemann To: Elisabeth Blanconil Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cb99655a48404f3d890b5 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/OnBK8kRSdq3GFCfXP4MYFwpxtaI X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 08:14:15 -0800 Cc: "discuss@1net.org" , "Louis Pouzin \(well\)" , "discuss@0net.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" , Mike Roberts Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 09:22:53 -0000 --089e013cb99655a48404f3d890b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mar 5, 2014 12:50 AM, "Elisabeth Blanconil" wrote: > > At 00:14 05/03/2014, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote: >> >> This survey is a miserable mascarade. Why waste time discussing it ? > > > The whole thing is a mascarade. > > At 01:00 05/03/2014, Mike Roberts wrote: >> >> I'm not sure we've dumped enough on the survey yet. What about "Dastardly abomination!" That's from one of the Sherlock Holmes episodes on PBS. >> Seriously, there have been sound and constructive contributions to this forum. It undermines the credibility of that hard work to have foolishness appear at the last minute. > > > For them it is an intellectual academic game :-). Let them enjoy it, get T&L paid, dream they save and rule the world, etc. > > They want to constrain States with such jokes. > Folks, States are where humanity has located "sovereignty", i.e. the legitimacy to use force up to violence if this becomes necessary. > Anything that does proceed from that fundamental premise is called utopia. FWIW - You're definition of humanity, sovereignty, and utopia are frighteningly different than mine. > > Now, we participated and teased because we wanted to be sure we would not miss a good idea (we found none) and check the soundness of ours (we only got pertinent confirmations of David Conrad). Now, there is work to be seriously done to deploy the innovation our national industries, jobs, security and development need. > > If some want to discuss their practical participation to the enhanced cooperation it calls for, they are welcome on discuss@0net.org ( http://0net.org). "0net" stands for a 0 blahblah governance of a neutral, transparent, reliable network. Not something @ M$ 12 a year the sysops. > > Cheers > Hebe > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > discuss mailing list > discuss@1net.org > http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss --089e013cb99655a48404f3d890b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mar 5, 2014 12:50 AM, "Elisabeth Blanconil" <info@vgnic.org> wrote:
>
> At 00:14 05/03/2014, Louis Pouzin (well) wrote:
>>
>> This survey is a miserable mascarade. Why waste time discussing it= ?
>
>
> The whole thing is a mascarade.
>
> At 01:00 05/03/2014, Mike Roberts wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure we've dumped enough on the survey yet. =A0Wha= t about "Dastardly abomination!" =A0That's from one of the Sh= erlock Holmes episodes on PBS.
>> Seriously, there have been sound and constructive contributions to= this forum. =A0It undermines the credibility of that hard work to have foo= lishness appear at the last minute.
>
>
> For them it is an intellectual academic game :-). Let them enjoy it, g= et T&L paid, dream they save and rule the world, etc.
>
> They want to constrain States with such jokes.
> Folks, States are where humanity has located "sovereignty", = i.e. the legitimacy to use force up to violence if this becomes necessary.<= br> > Anything that does proceed from that fundamental premise is called uto= pia.

FWIW - You're definition of humanity, sovereignty, and u= topia are frighteningly different than mine.

>
> Now, we participated and teased because we wanted to be sure we would = not miss a good idea (we found none) and check the soundness of ours (we on= ly got pertinent confirmations of David Conrad). Now, there is work to be s= eriously done to deploy the innovation our national industries, jobs, secur= ity and development need.
>
> If some want to discuss their practical participation to the enhanced = cooperation it calls for, they are welcome on discuss@0net.org (http://0net.org). "0net" stands for a 0 blahblah governance of a neutral, trans= parent, reliable network. Not something @ M$ 12 a year the sysops.
>
> Cheers
> Hebe
>
>
>
> =A0 =A0
>
> _______________________________________________
> discuss mailing list
> discuss@1net.org
> http://= 1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--089e013cb99655a48404f3d890b5-- From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:27:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE831A01A8 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:27:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zA_AJKK6-fSa for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813E31A0128 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=25022 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WLGX0-00087f-Ck; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:27:02 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:15:06 +0100 To: Avri Doria ,discuss@1net.org From: Jefsey In-Reply-To: <5316F92D.1000806@acm.org> References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <5316F92D.1000806@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/N30xY4g3nKnqP1El4hsWWLRzHJI Cc: discuss@0net.org, discuss@1net.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Utopia was Re: [] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:27:08 -0000 At 11:15 05/03/2014, Avri Doria wrote: >Calling it Utopian, or worse, and deprecating it in various ways >does not change that. Sovereignty as currently understood has been >a limited success - just looking at the daily papers and the movable >permanent wars should be enough to convince anyone. We need to >figure out how to do better. And this movement on the Internet, a >new way for global society to interact directly, is the best >alternative I know of at this point in time. Dear Avri, I am afraid you miss a fundamental point. Democracy appeared in Athens. Its contribution was the "nomos", i.e. the law voted by the people (actually some people). This nomos came in addition to the Themis (natural law) and patria (families best practices). This was a way to organise (architectonics) and harden the city from the interior (cohesion among citizens) and be more structured and prepared at the exterior. These tasks were distributed along three archons: Eponymous (also the chief of state - Aristote introduced architectonics, i.e. the architecture of all the architectures, as the supreme political art), Basileus for interior issues, and Polemach for external sovereignty (i.e. the field where only Themis applies and your army can protect you against violence). 1. the city's internal fundamental law does not change anything in terms of external affairs which is our field. 2. the nature of architectonics has changed: we do not only have to manage the land, seas, air and outer space, we also have to manage the cyber space, and more complicate and out of capacity of the political art we have to *build* it, and build it globally what can only be done on an MS basis, except if one state colonizes or invades all the others. Is that what you mean when you talk of democracy? So, references to your political feelings are off context. We are in a pure Themis/natural law context. If someone does not goes by the treaties, conventions or covenants it/he/she signed, there is only one alternative: acceptance or war. For the time being the majority of the States have signed a treaty. Sao Paulo is to see how the minority (which happens to be in position of relative strength) could settle a working compromise with the majority. You cannot do anything to change that. Except, change the world or humanity. Dreams (Utopia) cannot help, except in giving ideas or suggesting a aesthetics, hence ethics to better proceed. However, no one is prepared to receive ethics lessons or even suggestions from the USA at this time. So, the only possibility left is to change the digital world. This is not immediately possible (cost too much, and there is no consensus, most of the leading forces [USG/US and others TNCs] being in favor of a status-quo which looks at their immediate advantage). However, what is possible is to change the leaders' perception of the world. In the hope they are clever enough to understand faster than the full demonstration of an implementation that might economical conflicts or losses for them (nobody wants to oppose, just to help people understanding where their best interest lies, in spite of the "experts" says). We have introduced such a change in the perception: the one which was planned from the very beginning as the second motivation of the internet. Yes, it opposes the current leadership status-quo strategy because it structurally treats every MS on a technical equal footing, whatever the use, the language, the technology, the economy. Yes it is "0net" in removing every internet technology non neutral non transparent advantage. Yes it is not accepted by outdated gurus of the first motivation phase. However, cute responsible people know the internet project ultimate target. They know that the tools are here. They know they cannot block innovation too long. They know that the majorities of states is ready to move in if they are proven their technical trust has also been betrayed. So, now it is up to the decision makers to decide. Is it Obama's job to sovereignly rule my old file, the networks reality independently more accurately produce in 10 minutes with my old tools? I am sure that many round the world do it faster! Obviously the DNSA will exist. Obviously not in the way it is discussed today. As a VGN, TLD, name_holder association, supported by an international small and cheap secretariat. Government are not much interested in domain names, as long as they do not hamper their industry and their social peace. They are much more interested in what may weak their cyber warfare capacity, and the protection of their citizen. E-Democracy in other countries does not preoccupy them as much as the fact that, if the NSA was able to spy the US citizens themselves, the US technology is very vulnerable and no secret is secure in a world where you can be penetrated by the NSA and a civil contractor can disseminate your secrets so easily, together with 1.7 millions of other secret files. Frankly, Covs are still more worried because the secrets the NSA stole them through the internet, were not protected at the NSA. This definitely kills the idea of any international governance agency or organization where US security could have a responsibility. How could 191 countries trust it? Sorry, let get real. In an MS environment there is no king, no president, no votes. Only running code. Please develop or chose your running code. As we are doing. We will see what kind of governance may emerge from this zero blah blah MS globalized decision on an equal keyboard typing. Best! jfc From nobody Wed Mar 5 10:40:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212751A011E for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:40:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oEvm-zgqAojz for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4231A0129 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=2098 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WLGjR-0001Q8-Ci; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:39:54 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:39:51 +0100 To: IAB Chair From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: References: <53066F72.6080809@cisco.com> <53078600.3090104@cisco.com> <53086568.7050707@cisco.com> <3FFD6830-DC12-4707-AE2B-0FE1F251B198@vigilsec.com> <530921E3.7060005@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/RgvzHupSzHdZF7etV_USk2KmcPk Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, agora@vgnics.net, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [Internetgovtech] Guiding the Evolution of the IANA Protocol Parameter Registries X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:40:00 -0000 Dear Russ, I thank you for this confirmation of the IAB/IETF determination irt. the Internet end to end parameters after the ambiguous publication of the OpenStand RFC 6852 which does not define a common referent after the inclusion of ISOC, IEEE and W3C as a common readers of the economic requirements of the global communities. As personnally trying to clarify the terms of the multistakeholder governance of global information both for IUsers and multitechnology VGN individual, private and public operators I understand that there is a consensus of my interlocutors to trust, rely on, respect, and enforce the IETF structural parameters, and the IETF repartition of operational parameters. The intent is to channel the technical concerns via the IUCG and cooperate through the VGNICS experimental enhanced cooperation proposition under formalization (http://vgnics.net) and its MDRS (http://vgnics.net/mdrs) for the collection, validation and diffusion of fringe to fringe information made avaliable to VGNIC managers and DNS services operators. The intent is also to keep IAB informed of the efforts of documentation consolidation and/or translation. We certainly understand the importance - up to now illustrated by the US and a few other Governements - to be able to organize the Internet operations both in global continuity and in taking into account national needs, in particular in case of catastrophe or critical situations. The strategy wich seems to be demanded is a neutrality of information on a neutral end to end global network, of which the higher layers will be kept transparent to any fringe to fringe technology. Best regards. jfc At 18:28 24/02/2014, IAB Chair wrote: >Existing IETF and IAB consensus concerning Internet registry functions >and IANA are documented in a variety of RFCs and IAB communications >[RFC2860,RFC6220,IAB1,IAB2]. Since registry functions and IANA are >likely to be the subject of discussion in a number of venues outside the >IETF over the coming months and years, the IAB is seeking community >feedback about operating principles to use when they find themselves >involved in those discussions. > >While dealing with these issues the IAB has consistently approached the >issues from a set of (implicit) principles. Since the registry functions >are subject of discussion in various fora, the IAB has tried to make >these operating principles explicit and seeks to confirm these with the >community. > >The IAB are planning to use part of the time in the IGOVUPDATE session at >IETF 89 (6 March 2014, 17:00-18:30 GMT) for a discussion of such operating >principles. But we wanted to kick-start that discussion with a few >thoughts about principles that the IAB and IETF have articulated in >various documents already and some that have emerged over time but may >not have been written down. What we are interested in is an articulation >of what the IETF community values. What other parties (ICANN, RIRs, >governments, etc.) value when they think about registry functions is >interesting, but we want to focus this discussion on the IETF and not >those other parties. > >This is a first cut of making the principles more explicit for which we >seek your views. > >Some of these might seem a bit generic, but it is difficult to predict >the nature of future discussions in which IETF and IAB leaders might find >themselves, so generality helps in that regard. > >On behalf of the IAB, > Russ Housley > IAB Chair > >= = = = = = = = > >Principles Guiding the Evolution of the IANA Protocol Parameter Registries > >1. The IETF protocol parameters function has been and continues to be >capably provided by the Internet community. > >The strength and stability of the function and its foundation within the >Internet community are both important given how critical protocol >parameters are to the proper functioning of IETF protocols. > >We think the structures that sustain the protocol parameters function >needs be strong enough that they can be offered independently by the >Internet community, without the need for backing from external parties. >And we believe we largely are there already, although the system can be >strengthened further, and continuous improvements are being made. > >2. The administration of the protocol parameters function by ICANN is >working well for the Internet and the IETF. > >We are pleased with the publication and maintenance of the protocol >parameter function and the coordination of the evaluation of >registration requests through the IANA function provided by ICANN. > >3. The IETF protocol parameters function requires openness, >transparency, and accountability. > >Existing documentation of how the function is administered and overseen >is good [RFC2860,RFC6220], but further articulation and clarity may be >beneficial. It is important that the whole Internet community can >understand how the function works, and that the processes for >registering parameters and holding those who oversee the protocol >parameter function accountable for following those processes are >understood by all interested parties. We are committed to making >improvements here if necessary. > >4. Any contemplated changes to the protocol parameters function should >use the current RFCs and model as the starting point. > >The protocol parameters function is working well, and as a result >wholesale changes to the role of the IETF vis a vis the function are not >warranted. The IETF/IANA Memorandum of Understanding [RFC2860] is a good >model to work from in the event that other parties do want to contemplate >changes. Put quite simply: evolution, not revolution. > >5. The Internet architecture requires and receives capable service by >Internet registries. > >The stability of the Internet depends on capable provision of not just >IETF protocol parameters, but IP numbers, domain names, and other >registries. Furthermore, DNS and IPv4/IPv6 are IETF-defined protocols. >Thus we expect the role of the IETF in standards development, architectural >guidance, and allocation of certain name/number parameters to continue. >IP multicast addresses and special-use DNS names are two examples where >close coordination is needed. The IETF will continue to coordinate with >ICANN, the RIRs, and other parties that are mutually invested in the >continued smooth operation of the Internet registries. We fully >understand the need to work together. > >6. The IETF will continue its direction and stewardship of the protocol >parameters function as an integral component of the IETF standards >process and the use of resulting protocols. > >RFC 6220 specifies the role and function of the protocol parameters >registry, which is critical to IETF standards processes and IETF >protocols. We see no need to revisit or reconsider our current approach >with regard to protocol parameters, including the ability to delegate >operational responsibility for registries to other organizations. > >[RFC2860] http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2860.txt >[RFC6220] http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6220.txt >[IAB1] >http://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2011/03/2009-06-08-IAB-NTIA-NOI-final.pdf >[IAB2] >http://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2011/07/IANA-IAB-FNOI-2011.pdf > >_______________________________________________ >Internetgovtech mailing list >Internetgovtech@iab.org >https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/internetgovtech From nobody Wed Mar 5 12:32:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F2D1A04E8 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:32:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.131 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xEM113e12rBA for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076C51A045B for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:32:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vgnic.org; s=default; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:Cc:Subject:From:To:Date; bh=n+GnzEcVu2iPAa4XLKhIf0oCm4wDeH9Xd76OxgxB+0E=; b=lQA8vO1icbF+YcHLGG5lF66woUBGbbU9Yh7sDPEV4mKrxJo9rCXi8UW9i3PG/nQedwxMvWr4UzWIrQqXgOSNXpgepTbLczr5PhDf2S9mZTkmaINl6QRxCKmBSp4cBpO9ov6HpAvIDIHIYlVDpL5G2/FuSbRVwo2hfVTFkctCccQ=; Received: from 5.66.176.95.rev.sfr.net ([95.176.66.5]:50491 helo=Morfin-PC.vgnic.org) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WLIUe-0004HF-D4; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 12:32:44 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 21:32:22 +0100 To: Jefsey ,Avri Doria ,discuss@1net.org From: Elisabeth Blanconil References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <5316F92D.1000806@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - vgnic.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: info+vgnic.org/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/1cg4fw0T7UJUjvuUsfYbBGfbTk0 Cc: discuss@0net.org, discuss@1net.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Utopia was Re: [] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:32:50 -0000 At 19:15 05/03/2014, Jefsey wrote: >At 11:15 05/03/2014, Avri Doria wrote: >>Calling it Utopian, or worse, and deprecating it in various ways >>does not change that. Sovereignty as currently understood has been >>a limited success - just looking at the daily papers and the >>movable permanent wars should be enough to convince anyone. We >>need to figure out how to do better. And this movement on the >>Internet, a new way for global society to interact directly, is the >>best alternative I know of at this point in time. > >Dear Avri, > >I am afraid you miss a fundamental point. Democracy appeared in >Athens. Its contribution was the "nomos", i.e. the law voted by the >people (actually some people). This nomos came in addition to the >Themis (natural law) and patria (families best practices). This was >a way to organise (architectonics) and harden the city from the >interior (cohesion among citizens) and be more structured and >prepared at the exterior. These tasks were distributed along three >archons: Eponymous (also the chief of state - Aristote introduced >architectonics, i.e. the architecture of all the architectures, as >the supreme political art), Basileus for interior issues, and >Polemach for external sovereignty (i.e. the field where only Themis >applies and your army can protect you against violence). . Jefsey, this is a good analysis. However, the Themis was the natural law as seen by the Greeks. It included the gods, the lessons from greek history, etc. In the present case one could claim that the Themis equivalent is the current geek paradigm. This paradigm has been reworded by the I*people (RFC 6852). Do you accept it after your appeals due to your recent comments that they missed a final referent but that an MS principle could replace such a referent? Would the DNSA be an acceptable referent? Hebe From nobody Wed Mar 5 14:17:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1061A017C for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:17:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.831 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.831 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cV1Haqnlremi for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F2C1A00F0 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=53412 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WLK7w-0000ZJ-O9; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 14:17:25 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 23:17:21 +0100 To: Elisabeth Blanconil ,Avri Doria , discuss@1net.org From: Jefsey References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <5316F92D.1000806@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/mZW9XDY6lDBFsKtRkiFPPeXDZZk Cc: discuss@0net.org, discuss@1net.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Utopia was Re: [] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:17:30 -0000 At 21:32 05/03/2014, Elisabeth Blanconil wrote: >the Themis was the natural law as seen by the Greeks. It included >the gods, the lessons from greek history, etc. In the present case >one could claim that the Themis equivalent is the current geek >paradigm. This paradigm has been reworded by the I*people (RFC >6852). Do you accept it after your appeals due to your recent >comments that they missed a final referent but that an MS principle >could replace such a referent? Would the DNSA be an acceptable referent? I did not go into details. The French Govs position, if I understand it well, is that the Cyber Right has many common points with the Sea Right. In the Themis (as a Greek and not a Humanity law of the universe) there are the philia (a strong human friendship, as humans) and a war etiquette (like in China's second millenary) which are quite similar the seamen's solidarity. There is the same kind of connivance in the Libre, among hackers and geeks. But nothing so strong, and it stays at individual level. IRT the DNSA this would be confusing a part and the whole. The whole is the digisphere, of which the internet is a component, of which its DNS is currently a part. My point about RFC 6852 is that actually the I*leaders are being used and ISOC does not represent anything architectural anymore. So, they have not the credibility to enforce or arbitrate anything. In this case OpenStand is only a way for the IAB not to be politically responsible for a technology which is now outside of any control by a single guru, agent or board. So, it is a wild economic west, where the IUsers will eventually win and dispute the leadership among themselves. This is where a technical governance is necessary, but the arena of this governance exists already because on a network you need to test your running code in living mode. So, you are known - the press is the technical IGF. jfc From nobody Thu Mar 6 18:44:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0E91A0058 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 18:44:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.375 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5rhzqjWtyKaM for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 18:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E041A0057 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 18:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=14537 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WLkmF-0006sf-9q; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:44:48 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:48:14 +0100 To: "Matthias C. Kettemann" From: Jefsey In-Reply-To: References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <5316F92D.1000806@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_572160420==.ALT" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/-IQ8aOyToFwDCUVclXnck1_eFLE Cc: discuss@0net.org, Avri Doria , 1Net List , iucg@ietf.org, Elisabeth Blanconil Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Utopia was Re: [] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:44:55 -0000 --=====================_572160420==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:25 06/03/2014, Matthias C. Kettemann wrote: >There is, of course, also international law. Some of it in the form >of conventions, some in the form of custom. Let's not forget about >this normative order which can greatly influence how international >actors behave. It is through international law, for example, that we >can assess the legality of pervasive Internet monitoring; it is >through international law that we can establish binding rules. This is why I think all this debates on the internet governance without a single allusion to the Tallinn Manual (which is not available for free on the Internet) are irreal. >I am not saying that all questions will be solved by international >legal approaches, but we should not completely forget this important >field in a haze of themis and theory. Let's stay real. I like the French position because it makes me to think about Grotius and the debate on free and closed seas, etc. Have the Law of the Cyberspace been delayed by the US WCIT position or to the countrary is Sao Paulo a way to start anew? The actual question is that anti-Nation-State wants to defend the idea that the prejudice is against the USG for interfering in the other nation's domestic and people private business. My understanding is that they want more to introduce the notion of Personal-State when relaity inclines to consider relations-states. I do not know. The main problem we face anyway is that international laws are between States. And the mood in here is to ban States and Grotius' Westpahalian States legacy. This is why I feel safer on my own privateer's VGN. Cheers! jfc PS. IANAL >Kind regards >Matthias >Disclaimer: I am kind of fond of international law. It keeps my children fed. > >On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:17 PM, Jefsey ><jefsey@jefsey.com> wrote: >At 21:32 05/03/2014, Elisabeth Blanconil wrote: >the Themis was the natural law as seen by the Greeks. It included >the gods, the lessons from greek history, etc. In the present case >one could claim that the Themis equivalent is the current geek >paradigm. This paradigm has been reworded by the I*people (RFC >6852). Do you accept it after your appeals due to your recent >comments that they missed a final referent but that an MS principle >could replace such a referent? Would the DNSA be an acceptable referent? > >I did not go into details. The French Govs position, if I understand >it well, is that the Cyber Right has many common points with the Sea >Right. In the Themis (as a Greek and not a Humanity law of the >universe) there are the philia (a strong human friendship, as >humans) and a war etiquette (like in China's second millenary) which >are quite similar the seamen's solidarity. There is the same kind of >connivance in the Libre, among hackers and geeks. But nothing so >strong, and it stays at individual level. >IRT the DNSA this would be confusing a part and the whole. The whole >is the digisphere, of which the internet is a component, of which >its DNS is currently a part. My point about RFC 6852 is that >actually the I*leaders are being used and ISOC does not represent >anything architectural anymore. So, they have not the credibility to >enforce or arbitrate anything. In this case OpenStand is only a way >for the IAB not to be politically responsible for a technology which >is now outside of any control by a single guru, agent or board. So, >it is a wild economic west, where the IUsers will eventually win and >dispute the leadership among themselves. This is where a technical >governance is necessary, but the arena of this governance exists >already because on a network you need to test your running code in >living mode. So, you are known - the press is the technical IGF. > >jfc --=====================_572160420==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 09:25 06/03/2014, Matthias C. Kettemann wrote:
There is, of course, also international law. Some of it in the form of conventions, some in the form of custom. Let's not forget about this normative order which can greatly influence how international actors behave. It is through international law, for example, that we can assess the legality of pervasive Internet monitoring; it is through international law that we can establish binding rules.

This is why I think all this debates on the internet governance without a single allusion to the Tallinn Manual (which is not available for free on the Internet) are irreal.

I am not saying that all questions will be solved by international legal approaches, but we should not completely forget this important field in a haze of themis and theory. Let's stay real.

I like the French position because it makes me to think about Grotius and the debate on free and closed seas, etc.  Have the Law of the Cyberspace been delayed by the US WCIT position or to the countrary is Sao Paulo a way to start anew?

The actual question is that anti-Nation-State wants to defend the idea that the prejudice is against the USG for interfering in the other nation's domestic and people private business. My understanding is that they want more to introduce the notion of Personal-State when relaity inclines to consider relations-states.

I do not know. The main problem we face anyway is that international laws are between States. And the mood in here is to ban States and Grotius' Westpahalian States legacy. This is why I feel safer on my own privateer's VGN.

Cheers!
jfc

PS. IANAL


Kind regards
Matthias
Disclaimer: I am kind of fond of international law. It keeps my children fed.

On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:17 PM, Jefsey <jefsey@jefsey.com> wrote:
At 21:32 05/03/2014, Elisabeth Blanconil wrote:
the Themis was the natural law as seen by the Greeks. It included the gods, the lessons from greek history, etc. In the present case one could claim that the Themis equivalent is the current geek paradigm. This paradigm has been reworded by the I*people (RFC 6852). Do you accept it after your appeals due to your recent comments that they missed a final referent but that an MS principle could replace such a referent? Would the DNSA be an acceptable referent?

I did not go into details. The French Govs position, if I understand it well, is that the Cyber Right has many common points with the Sea Right. In the Themis (as a Greek and not a Humanity law of the universe) there are the philia (a strong human friendship, as humans) and a war etiquette (like in China's second millenary) which are quite similar the seamen's solidarity. There is the same kind of connivance in the Libre, among hackers and geeks. But nothing so strong, and it stays at individual level.
IRT the DNSA this would be confusing a part and the whole. The whole is the digisphere, of which the internet is a component, of which its DNS is currently a part. My point about RFC 6852 is that actually the I*leaders are being used and ISOC does not represent anything architectural anymore. So, they have not the credibility to enforce or arbitrate anything. In this case OpenStand is only a way for the IAB not to be politically responsible for a technology which is now outside of any control by a single guru, agent or board. So, it is a wild economic west, where the IUsers will eventually win and dispute the leadership among themselves. This is where a technical governance is necessary, but the arena of this governance exists already because on a network you need to test your running code in living mode. So, you are known - the press is the technical IGF.

jfc 
--=====================_572160420==.ALT-- From matthias.kettemann@gmail.com Thu Mar 6 00:25:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31051A0161 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:25:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.901 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y3XsoUEGjonL for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x232.google.com (mail-qc0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586021A0020 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id i8so2469326qcq.23 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:25:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=/kBfyF1vXHYAFxUDtkrPmZGxi2WoiXJsmBYhRswN50Y=; b=MgolYwxymyPHOoft8l/0jahRSpuHGPZyd/WTXaT9BwgJ6go7G4BegzQp3bSP8ghnwq 9hkcdH8dHHBLVwZCgwQdK8bwKbuFx+xkXbCEpANqiHTAFEiI0j3X4ENCcVTPHry5wm2m eZomc1nApBKbof2aeMwNEEX58hq1+VjbyxFaSfBXTxctwngbcZ9akjO5CNGsPxAGVv9d 1SnHanmiNHd1h116D8sAS8XPogqqXHqHsg5ldoPxQRzYmeVZqT+FGsQhQ1Uos/rR7Vc2 bZ8MLE326X9W5881luTzhJfZp4VxeKXdw8ZR6S1bhXIHz1phBY8UKPxQn286kHal7l5j eYXQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.44.69 with SMTP id f63mr11831191qga.31.1394094321327; Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.192.97 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:25:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <531573701a240_630e3fc756052f00105224@forum.1net.org.mail> <21A31DE6-453A-4DD6-B3E3-70988F677161@ccianet.org> <1393951345.62755.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53161E87.1080206@acm.org> <20140304185901.GD8983@mx1.yitter.info> <5316259B.8080901@acm.org> <531674cb.637bc20a.6b5c.747cSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <5316F92D.1000806@acm.org> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:25:21 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Matthias C. Kettemann" To: Jefsey Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a02c2ce808e04f3ebe030 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/tLXI8WvA8W2h_qQvetSN6hUkjj8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:40:47 -0800 Cc: discuss@0net.org, Avri Doria , 1Net List , iucg@ietf.org, Elisabeth Blanconil Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] Utopia was Re: [] Survey X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:33:58 -0000 --001a113a02c2ce808e04f3ebe030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is, of course, also international law. Some of it in the form of conventions, some in the form of custom. Let's not forget about this normative order which can greatly influence how international actors behave. It is through international law, for example, that we can assess the legality of pervasive Internet monitoring; it is through international law that we can establish binding rules. I am not saying that all questions will be solved by international legal approaches, but we should not completely forget this important field in a haze of themis and theory. Let's stay real. Kind regards Matthias Disclaimer: I am kind of fond of international law. It keeps my children fed. On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:17 PM, Jefsey wrote: > At 21:32 05/03/2014, Elisabeth Blanconil wrote: > >> the Themis was the natural law as seen by the Greeks. It included the >> gods, the lessons from greek history, etc. In the present case one could >> claim that the Themis equivalent is the current geek paradigm. This >> paradigm has been reworded by the I*people (RFC 6852). Do you accept it >> after your appeals due to your recent comments that they missed a final >> referent but that an MS principle could replace such a referent? Would t= he >> DNSA be an acceptable referent? >> > > I did not go into details. The French Govs position, if I understand it > well, is that the Cyber Right has many common points with the Sea Right. = In > the Themis (as a Greek and not a Humanity law of the universe) there are > the philia (a strong human friendship, as humans) and a war etiquette (li= ke > in China's second millenary) which are quite similar the seamen's > solidarity. There is the same kind of connivance in the Libre, among > hackers and geeks. But nothing so strong, and it stays at individual leve= l. > > IRT the DNSA this would be confusing a part and the whole. The whole is > the digisphere, of which the internet is a component, of which its DNS is > currently a part. My point about RFC 6852 is that actually the I*leaders > are being used and ISOC does not represent anything architectural anymore= . > So, they have not the credibility to enforce or arbitrate anything. In th= is > case OpenStand is only a way for the IAB not to be politically responsibl= e > for a technology which is now outside of any control by a single guru, > agent or board. So, it is a wild economic west, where the IUsers will > eventually win and dispute the leadership among themselves. This is where= a > technical governance is necessary, but the arena of this governance exist= s > already because on a network you need to test your running code in living > mode. So, you are known - the press is the technical IGF. > > jfc > > > _______________________________________________ > discuss mailing list > discuss@1net.org > http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > --=20 Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard) Post-Doc Fellow | Cluster of Excellence "Normative Orders ", University of Frankfurt/Main Lecturer | Institute of International Law and International Relations, University of Graz Research Affiliate | European Training and Research Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, University of Graz Exzellenzcluster "Normative Ordnungen", Goethe-Universit=E4t Frankfurt/Main EXC-8, Gr=FCneburgplatz 1 60323 Frankfurt/Main, Deutschland E | matthias.kettemann@gmail.com T | 0049 176 817 50 920 (mobile, Germany) T | 0043 676 7017175 (mobile, Austria) T | 0049 69 798 31508 (office) Blog | SSRN | Google Scholar = | my new book | Amazon Authors' Page Twitter | Facebook | Google+ Recent publications: Freedom of Expression and the Internet (2014) Netzpolitik in =D6sterreich [Net Politics in Austria] (2013, ed.) Grenzen im V=F6lkerrecht [Limits of International Law] (2013, ed.) The Future of Individuals in International Law (2013) European Yearbook on Human Rights 2013 (2013, co-edited) --001a113a02c2ce808e04f3ebe030 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is, of course, also international law. Some of = it in the form of conventions, some in the form of custom. Let's not fo= rget about this normative order which can greatly influence how internation= al actors behave. It is through international law, for example, that we can= assess the legality of pervasive Internet monitoring; it is through intern= ational law that we can establish binding rules. I am not saying that all q= uestions will be solved by international legal approaches, but we should no= t completely forget this important field in a haze of themis and theory. Le= t's stay real.

Kind regards
Matthias

Disclaimer: I am kind of fond of = international law. It keeps my children fed.


On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:17 PM, J= efsey <jefsey@jefsey.com> wrote:
At 21:32 05/03/2014, Elisabe= th Blanconil wrote:
the Themis was the natural law as seen by the Greeks. It included the gods,= the lessons from greek history, etc. In the present case one could claim t= hat the Themis equivalent is the current geek paradigm. This paradigm has b= een reworded by the I*people (RFC 6852). Do you accept it after your appeal= s due to your recent comments that they missed a final referent but that an= MS principle could replace such a referent? Would the DNSA be an acceptabl= e referent?

I did not go into details. The French Govs position, if I understand it wel= l, is that the Cyber Right has many common points with the Sea Right. In th= e Themis (as a Greek and not a Humanity law of the universe) there are the = philia (a strong human friendship, as humans) and a war etiquette (like in = China's second millenary) which are quite similar the seamen's soli= darity. There is the same kind of connivance in the Libre, among hackers an= d geeks. But nothing so strong, and it stays at individual level.

IRT the DNSA this would be confusing a part and the whole. The whole is the= digisphere, of which the internet is a component, of which its DNS is curr= ently a part. My point about RFC 6852 is that actually the I*leaders are be= ing used and ISOC does not represent anything architectural anymore. So, th= ey have not the credibility to enforce or arbitrate anything. In this case = OpenStand is only a way for the IAB not to be politically responsible for a= technology which is now outside of any control by a single guru, agent or = board. So, it is a wild economic west, where the IUsers will eventually win= and dispute the leadership among themselves. This is where a technical gov= ernance is necessary, but the arena of this governance exists already becau= se on a network you need to test your running code in living mode. So, you = are known - the press is the technical IGF.

jfc  


_______________________________________________
discuss mailing list
discuss@1net.org<= br> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



--

Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. = (Harvard)
Post-Doc Fellow | Cluster of Excellence „Normative Orders”<= /a>, University of Frankfurt/Main
Lecturer | Institute of International Law and International Relations, University of Graz
Research Affiliate | Europea= n Training and Research Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, University of = Graz

Exzellenzcluster "Normative Ordnun= gen", Goethe-Universit=E4t Frankfurt/Main
EXC-8, Gr=FCneburgplatz 1=
60323 Frankfurt/Main, Deutschland

E | matthias.kettemann@gmail.com
T | 0049 176 817 50 920 (mobile, Germany)
T | 0043 676 7017175 (mobile, = Austria)
T | 0049 69 798 31508 (office)
B= log | SSRN=  | Google Scholar | my new book | Amazon Authors' = Page 
Twitter | Facebook | = Google+

Recent publications:
= Freedom of Expression and the Internet (2014)
Ne= tzpolitik in =D6sterreich [Net Politics in Austria] (2013, ed.)
Grenzen im V=F6lkerrecht [Limits of Intern= ational Law] (2013, ed.)
The Future of Individuals in International Law (2013)
European Yearbook on Human Rights 2013 (2013, co-edited)                 &n= bsp;                     =                     =

 

<= /div>
--001a113a02c2ce808e04f3ebe030-- From nobody Fri Mar 7 04:26:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E24E1A0257 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 04:26:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q9f7ukWjw5ce for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 04:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64BD1A01EF for ; Fri, 7 Mar 2014 04:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 5.66.176.95.rev.sfr.net ([95.176.66.5]:31323 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WLtqc-0006KT-RR; Fri, 07 Mar 2014 04:25:55 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 13:25:53 +0100 To: "discuss@1net.org List" , "discuss@0net.org List" From: Jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/JMEp7K0-Wi5NOca-Xzlx1Pt-64Y Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: [iucg] IETF 89 - IGOV update. X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 12:26:01 -0000 http://iucg.org/wiki/IETF_89_London_-_igovupdate I quote some parts and interspred comments: >In this discussion: > >Steve Crocker summarized: > >There is a complex and poorly understood trio of globalization efforts >underway. >- One is, globalization of IANA function. >- Second, globalization of ICANN function. >- Third, broader discussion of Internet Governance which is broader >than ICANN and IANA. Correct. This is a difficulty the /1net mailing list seems to meet. The matter is broader than ICANN and IANA. Achitecturaly and architectonically one cannot avoid that neutral transparency to VGN (Virtual Global Network) technologies and governance is the ultimate target of the Internetting project. This target is technically within reach, but is curbed by political stands and economical interests that oppose the status-quo. >Patrik Falstrm noted: > >You are not conflicting with the Tunis agenda, which means you are not >requesting or supporting an initiative to have a full WSIS in 2015. It >is important that you verify that the principles cannot be used in >favor of having a new WSIS. [this was confirmed]. This implicitely means that the IAB stands by the WSIS principles and believes that they are fully compatible with OpenStand, what is questionnable. >Russ Housley concluded reviewing the Principles Guiding the Evolution >of the IANA Protocol Parameter Registries > >1. The IETF protocol parameters function has been and continues to be >capably provided by the Internet community. > >The strength and stability of the function and its foundation within the >Internet community are both important given how critical protocol >parameters are to the proper functioning of IETF protocols. > >We think the structures that sustain the protocol parameters function >needs be strong enough that they can be offered independently by the >Internet community, without the need for backing from external parties. >And we believe we largely are there already, although the system can be >strengthened further, and continuous improvements are being made. > > >> review: needs clarification about what we mean by the Internet Community ditto for: internet and globalization. >2. The administration of the protocol parameters function by ICANN is >working well for the Internet and the IETF. > >We are pleased with the publication and maintenance of the protocol >parameter function and the coordination of the evaluation of >registration requests through the IANA function provided by ICANN. > > >> this isn't a principle at all just a statement of fact, and maybe >that belongs elsewhere This is true because the Linguistic tables are not extensively accessed what might be the case if the Unicode langtags routine were upgraded to better operationnally support a multilinguistic environment. The load on the IANA could then becom tremendous due to the size of the table and the lack of an interrogation/update system. >3. The IETF protocol parameters function requires openness, >transparency, and accountability. > >Existing documentation of how the function is administered and overseen >is good [RFC2860,RFC6220], but further articulation and clarity may be >beneficial. It is important that the whole Internet community can >understand how the function works, and that the processes for >registering parameters and holding those who oversee the protocol >parameter function accountable for following those processes are >understood by all interested parties. We are committed to making >improvements here if necessary. > > >> remove "but" (but further articulation ...) This applies to the VGNICS as well. I have committed to IAB Chair that we will follow the RFC 2860 principles. >4. Any contemplated changes to the protocol parameters function should >use the current RFCs and model as the starting point. > >The protocol parameters function is working well, and as a result >wholesale changes to the role of the IETF vis a vis the function are not >warranted. The IETF/IANA Memorandum of Understanding [RFC2860] is a good >model to work from in the event that other parties do want to contemplate >changes. Put quite simply: evolution, not revolution. > > >> "this is a service to IETF, and that the IETF selects the service >provider, not the other way around" This is correct in the case of a unique authoritative VGN default. The MDRS (MetaReferential Distributed System) is to extend the IANA default to the VGNICs with others inputs related to layer six, multiple technology, interapplications, VGN governance information and parameters. Since VGNs form an interplus stratum above the internet, the basic principle should however be that IETF inputs are to be strictly respected. The idea is that MAY, SHOULD, MUST apply withing a stratum, and that inputs from other strata are ARE. So there should not be any conflict by vertue of the layered model. Difficulties will be dealt at the IAB liaison level. However, discrepancies might occur among VGN implementations due to their different contexts. This case seems to have been considered when "coordination" is proposed to be explored for an added principle. >5. The Internet architecture requires and receives capable service by >Internet registries. > >The stability of the Internet depends on capable provision of not just >IETF protocol parameters, but IP numbers, domain names, and other >registries. Furthermore, DNS and IPv4/IPv6 are IETF-defined protocols. >Thus we expect the role of the IETF in standards development, architectural >guidance, and allocation of certain name/number parameters to continue. >IP multicast addresses and special-use DNS names are two examples where >close coordination is needed. The IETF will continue to coordinate with >ICANN, the RIRs, and other parties that are mutually invested in the >continued smooth operation of the Internet registries. We fully >understand the need to work together. > > >> no comment This extends to the stratum above (fringe to fringe) as to the stratum below (existing relations with the plug to plus ITU). >6. The IETF will continue its direction and stewardship of the protocol >parameters function as an integral component of the IETF standards >process and the use of resulting protocols. > >RFC 6220 specifies the role and function of the protocol parameters >registry, which is critical to IETF standards processes and IETF >protocols. We see no need to revisit or reconsider our current approach >with regard to protocol parameters, including the ability to delegate >operational responsibility for registries to other organizations > > >> "use exactly the language of RFC 6220, and be more clear than just >the bold text at the top that this is not about names and numbers This is probably to explore further on experience depending on the requirements of the interfaced technologies. > >>> add an additional principle to talk about content of registries In the MDRS case this is going to depend from acquired exploration and experience but it is like that many new issues in the active/specific/etc. content. > >>> and think about an additional principle to deal with the coordination It is likely that coordination above (VGNs) will be equivalent in its structure to coordination below (ITU) if the VGN stratum can be coordinated through one governance (http://vgnics.net attempt) and one technical forum (interfaced through IUCG?). jfc From nobody Wed Mar 19 10:54:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB85D1A0729 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zPETNU8O77aW for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BE21A0779 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 64.20.176.95.rev.sfr.net ([95.176.20.64]:12080 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WQKgq-00038O-MK; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:54:09 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:52:02 +0100 To: Mike Roberts ,John Curran From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <249F89A5-32BE-45A1-86F1-3A37B772A753@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <0B64A550-A1FE-4EE4-80A8-A10C794162F0@istaff.org> <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/bsUY6kPtbqLXSGgWdTLO6jDWV14 Cc: "comptoir@cafedu.com" , "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] ICANN governance structure X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 17:54:20 -0000 Mike and John, Your memories are important. What I gather is that the key evaluation is "The Board discovered almost immediately that Jon's dream of decision making outside of ICANN had no legal basis". 1. would you have a precise description of Jon's dream? This would be very precious input. I do not know him, but I know most of the managers of the networks we internationally interconnected until 1986. I respect their experience and judgment, and I tend to think that if we would have left them to collectively decide, the situation could be quite different (please note that I am speaking of the network managers, not of the services administrators or providers). 2. IMHO, the NTIA's move is completing the situation that Mike describes: the rule of law, of a national law. The maturity that the NTIA says ICANN has acquired is its experience with that law. NTIA thinks that the transition period is over: ICANN is now able to conciliate the law of the code and the law of the nation that hosts it: it does not need its Executive to serve as a strategic conciliator any more. It looks like the USG doctrine is that the legal building of the internet project, as engaged by Joe Sims, is completed (or has to be considered as such after the international loss of international trust in US agencies). In such a perspective, Benny's proposition makes a lot of sense: the internet legal layer is made of ties between entities that have no technical legitimacy, but do have an operational complementary role. The more ties, the more stability through a mutually built legitimacy. This is a tensegrity: the more spokes, the more stability. However, in this process, we come back to the same problem again: the hub. The problem is not the way it works: it is its mere existence. The legal networking is centralized: decentralizing is a good point but does not change that the real network is distributed. The only existing possibility to distribute the legal network is to use international law: this is what the USG definitely opposes and the NTIA's announcement explicitly refuses and defuses. Our problem is to find and build another solution. IMHO, the USG opposition has several reasons rooted both in the US and in the general interest. This is because the general interest also includes the US interest that the USG is by its very essence to exclusively serve. These are the reasons to list and review, because the context keeps changing and our knowledge/understanding and comprehension of it keeps improving. National laws should keep adapting (Brazil is an example). Changing national laws (and most of all assuming responsibility) is up to the Congress, not to the Executive. The same as IAB has delegated its technical guidance responsibility to the economics of global markets. The responsibility is too big not to be collectively assumed. The real issue seems to be possibly phrased as the global extension of the virtual national territory and nationality, hence sovereignty. This blurs the notions of what is national and international. We have had this problem for 30 years: trans-border-data-flows, trans-national-corporations, technical-barriers-to-trade, etc. the internet has gained a transnational global nature that evades the sovereignties' current legal framework. There is no reason for the US to lose the fruits of the progress they made in that area: this new phase or a continuation of Deregulation. The common interest is that the US progress in managing a state's global reach is copied, considered, or adapted everywhere; the same as the French/European progress in other areas (privacy, precaution, and moral person) is copied everywhere; the same for the contribution of every other experience. This is why we have to adjust. Obviously, during this "grand adjustment", private or national interests will attempt to influence things. However, and this is the root and probably the solution to the problem: - "global" (mondial) does not mean "multilateral at different stakeholder layers" (even at a popular democratic layer); something that foreign affairs know how to proceed with. This is a legacy of the former nation state world. - It means the "people centered, caractre humain, centrada en la persona" (WSIS) multitude: democracy has no experience in dealing with the interconnected global and ulterior multitudes at the individual citizen layer. This is what I call "polycracy" and I know how to transpose it in technology (we can use it as a test-bed to acquire experience) through VGNs. This is because Aristotle defined policy as the art of commanding free men, and we are demanding it now to be the art, we are exploring, of commanding free increasingly interconnected men, ideas, interests, and things. jfc At 03:20 19/03/2014, Mike Roberts wrote: >John - > >Thanks for your elaboration. I think that steps and missteps by the >ICANN Directors in the early days can be instructive as we attempt >to fashion a broader, more inclusive global base for Internet governance. > >The Board obviously found that the initial Bylaws did not fit the >reality of what was going on in the DNS and what the community >wanted, which, of course, was a multitude of voices. They have been >revised on numerous occasions. With a changing IG environment, how >firm vs how flexible should the bylaws be? > >The transition from a research agency/academic partnership based on >collaboration and cooperation to a legalistic environment with >antagonistic lawyers around every corner resulted in a lot of tough >decisions based on legal gray areas. E.g., the importing into ICANN >policy circles of ongoing struggles over copyrights and >trademarks. In today's environment, the Board seldom makes a >significant move without a lot of legal advice. Is this the way it >just has to be? > >The Board discovered almost immediately that Jon's dream of decision >making "outside" of ICANN had no legal basis. The Directors were on >the hook for decisions. Of course, given ICANN's mission, it needs >a lot of advice, much of it complex and technical. What is the best >approach to structuring advice and taking it? The lawyers thinking >of suing have their views, but how do we provide for the Directors >doing the right thing, with consensus, when the outcome is >overturned in litigation. The law requires "diligence" by the >Directors in taking advice. Is there a way to reduce that to norms >that the community can endorse? > >Lawyers will tell you that ICANN and its Directors are accountable >to the public interest through the functioning of the California >corporate statute and its remedies for behavior that is found to be >unlawful. Many find this unsatisfying. Is there a better way, >still grounded in the rule of law, to accomplish the aim of mission >appropriate behavior? > >I don't want to belabor the issue. The above points, a >non-exhaustive list, suggest the complexity of what we are about, >and the difficulty of reducing theory to workable practice. > >- Mike > > >On Mar 18, 2014, at 4:37 PM, John Curran wrote: > > > On Mar 18, 2014, at 11:15 PM, Mike Roberts wrote: > > > >> Perhaps a little background would help on this item. > > > > Sure... I was there, but would love to hear your perspective. > > > >> In the summer of 1998, there was an effort to socialize - > globally - the White Paper recommendations about a new non-profit > entity to become the home for functions previously managed by > federal research agencies. The signal to noise ratio of these > meetings was not good, for obvious reasons. Jon Postel and his > IETF colleagues were alarmed by the prospect of an ICANN Board > doing wholesale damage to Internet infrastructure as a result of > ignorance, malevolence, or both. Joe Sims, Jon's lawyer (pro bono > by the way), created a variation on the standard corporate > committee structure in which considerable autonomy was ceded to > three "Supporting Organizations," covering the three responsibility > areas of protocols (PSO), numbers (ASO) and names (DNSO). The > Bylaws provided that these SO's would be self-created by a > community process with experts in those areas and would be prima > facie the voice of authority on policy, subject to the Board's > final approval. Most of the year 1999 was consumed in the process > of populating the SO's. > > > > Fine so far. > > > >> We'll never know whether Jon's plan would have succeeded because > he didn't get to preside over it. In his absence, the two > technical pieces, PSO and ASO, felt a lot of discomfort about their > implied subservience to the USG through ICANN. Especially since > their membership and functions had long since become global. They > moved to the "distant" but cooperative relationship with ICANN that > exists today. > > > > Umm... Actually, we went into ICANN Singapore meeting (this was > March 1999) with > > both ASO and PSO principals on-board with the formation of > ICANN. ICANN had > > even issued a call for DNSO applicants, and the initial Board had > reviewed two > > applications for recognition as the ICANN Domain Name Supporting > Organization. > > At the public meeting, the Board indicated that it would not > adopt either of > > the two, indicating that the community deserved "the best DNSO > possible" (to > > the best of my recollection) and instead outlined some concepts > and a structure > > (with constituencies) on which a Domain Name Supporting > Organization advisory > > group _within ICANN_ would be based. When I pointed out that > this was contrary > > to initial ICANN Bylaws, the Board took that under advice and in > the end decided > > to change the Bylaws to align with the chosen direction. For > reference (or to jog > > the memory of those who were there), feel free to review the > "Summary of Actions > > Taken by the ICANN Initial Board of Directors at its Meeting in > Singapore" - > > > > > > So, perhaps it would be best to say we don't know whether Jon's plan would > > have succeeded, not because he didn't get to preside over it, but because > > it underwent substantial change during implementation. As a result of this > > change, ICANN added DNS policy development _within ICANN_ > (terminology per the > > ICANN Board's own statement above) in addition to its overall coordination > > duties and its IANA implementation duties. Additionally, it meant the DNS > > service provider community lost an opportunity for > self-organization with an > > independent voice and finances of its own, i.e. distinct from > that gained by > > participation in the Internet names and numbers coordination organization. > > > > Given that the original blueprint was to have structural separation for > > policy development (as you put it above, "considerable autonomy ceded") > > from ICANN proper, the decision to bring the DNSO within ICANN meant that > > the Board approved the actual process for DNS policy development, approved > > the policy outputs of the development process, led the implementation of > > the DNS policies including approval of individual DNS requests... pretty > > much everything except actual insertion of DNS entries into the root zone, > > and all of this in addition to its original mission of coordination and > > oversight across the entire Internet identifier ecosystem (much as Jon > > et al had done as "the IANA".) The departure from the original plan made > > it challenging to see how an organization doing all things DNS was also > > going to provide oversight for itself, not to mention creating some > > significant long-term organizational repercussions for ICANN given the > > the growth of DNS policy development compared to its original tasking. > > > >> The DNSO/GNSO relationship has seen many adjustments over the > years, and it is fair to say that substantial numbers of its > constituents aren't all that happy about the way it functions. > There are disparate views on whether ICANN's SO's, as such, have > been a success or not. Careful scrutiny will be required on > constituent structures in any new arrangements. > >> > >> In that context, Barry's hub and spoke idea has merit and ought > to be explored. > > > > Indeed. It might be good to seek common understanding of what principles > > regarding accountability are desirable, and then consider what > strengthening > > and restructuring of ICANN's existing mechanisms are best suited > to satisfy. > > > > FYI, > > /John > > > > Disclaimers: My views alone, particularly regarding historical > events. Note, however, > > that I am the CEO of ARIN, and ARIN's performance of > its mission for the > > community is predicated upon a stable and secure > environment in which to > > operate (including protection the community-based > multi-stakeholder policy > > development model); this obviously drives some of my > underlying concern > > in making sure that ICANN has foundational strength > sufficient to succeed > > for decades to come, including in circumstances sans > NTIA oversight. > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >discuss mailing list >discuss@1net.org >http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss From nobody Wed Mar 19 11:03:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6BB1A07E3 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id skOC_W-Xkou9 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-03-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075BE1A07E0 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.103.67.66] (helo=[172.20.2.134]) by mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WQKp5-000Ces-Rv; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:02:39 +0000 X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 92.103.67.66 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX18XoQVG5C2gBN+RTD8n4URk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: <20140319175449.5E10D2135C5@smtp2.arin.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:02:36 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43303780-D53D-429E-9528-3B62C928EEFB@istaff.org> References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <249F89A5-32BE-45A1-86F1-3A37B772A753@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <0B64A550-A1FE-4EE4-80A8-A10C794162F0@istaff.org> <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <20140319175449.5E10D2135C5@smtp2.arin.net> To: JFC Morfin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/ETbdKf_i71xCvbDUIlkpf8S4nFg Cc: "comptoir@cafedu.com" , "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org, Mike Roberts Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] ICANN governance structure X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:02:59 -0000 On Mar 19, 2014, at 6:52 PM, JFC Morfin wrote: > Mike and John, >=20 > Your memories are important. What I gather is that the key evaluation = is "The Board discovered almost immediately that Jon's dream of decision = making outside of ICANN had no legal basis". >=20 > 1. would you have a precise description of Jon's dream? I have no idea, but am aware of the Green Paper, the White Paper, and = ICANN's initial Bylaws as documents which reflect some of his views in creating = a more substantial structure for performance of the IANA tasks. FYI, /John Disclaimer: My views alone.=20 From nobody Wed Mar 19 11:45:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CE51A07C7 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:45:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AhUxd10toHg0 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5211A0753 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.88] ([128.9.184.88]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2JIiDf3012466 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: manning bill In-Reply-To: <43303780-D53D-429E-9528-3B62C928EEFB@istaff.org> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:44:14 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <249F89A5-32BE-45A1-86F1-3A37B772A753@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <0B64A550-A1FE-4EE4-80A8-A10C794162F0@istaff.org> <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <20140319175449.5E10D2135C5@smtp2.arin.net> <43303780-D53D-429E-9528-3B62C928EEFB@istaff.org> To: John Curran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: bmanning@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/4RVtj0bLbD8A3E3UJMie71zVR8I Cc: "comptoir@cafedu.com" , "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org Subject: [iucg] DoC steers into uncharted waters. Expect legal challenges X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:45:03 -0000 h= ttp://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/03/legal-limits-on-the-transfer-of-control-= to-icann Back in 2000, the question of transference was asked and the GAO = responded: "The question of whether the Department has the authority to transfer = control of the authoritative root server to ICANN is a difficult one to = answer. Although control over the authoritative root server is not based = on any statute or international agreement, the government has long been = instrumental in supporting and developing the Internet and the domain = name system. The Department has no specific statutory obligations to = manage the domain name system or to control the authoritative root = server. It is uncertain whether transferring control would also include = transfer of government property to a private entity. Determining whether = there is government property may be difficult. To the extent that = transition of the management control to a private entity would involve = the transfer of government property, it is unclear if the Department has = the requisite authority to effect such a transfer. Since the Department = states that it has no plans to transfer the root server system, it has = not examined these issues. Currently, under the cooperative agreement = with Network Solutions, the Department has reserved final policy control = over the authoritative root server." /bill Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet.= From nobody Wed Mar 19 11:54:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D691A071A for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RgKSv9pdlTif for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-03-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CACA1A06FD for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.103.67.66] (helo=[172.20.2.134]) by mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WQLcl-00010a-9g; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:53:59 +0000 X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 92.103.67.66 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX1+8JRckXD1BBxJRSmBt13ni Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:53:54 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <249F89A5-32BE-45A1-86F1-3A37B772A753@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <0B64A550-A1FE-4EE4-80A8-A10C794162F0@istaff.org> <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <20140319175449.5E10D2135C5@smtp2.arin.net> <43303780-D53D-429E-9528-3B62C928EEFB@istaff.org> To: manning bill X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/2cl-sFFRVZ4_4Bt-csJr4aMeT00 Cc: "comptoir@cafedu.com" , "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] DoC steers into uncharted waters. Expect legal challenges X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:54:21 -0000 On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:44 PM, manning bill wrote: > = http://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/03/legal-limits-on-the-transfer-of-control= -to-icann >=20 > Back in 2000, the question of transference was asked and the GAO = responded: >=20 > "The question of whether the Department has the authority to transfer = control of the authoritative root server to ICANN is a difficult one to = answer. Although control over the authoritative root server is not based = on any statute or international agreement, the government has long been = instrumental in supporting and developing the Internet and the domain = name system. The Department has no specific statutory obligations to = manage the domain name system or to control the authoritative root = server. It is uncertain whether transferring control would also include = transfer of government property to a private entity. Determining whether = there is government property may be difficult. To the extent that = transition of the management control to a private entity would involve = the transfer of government property, it is unclear if the Department has = the requisite authority to effect such a transfer. Since the Department = states that it has no plans to transfer the root server system, it has = not examined these issues. Currently, under the cooperative agreement = with Network Solutions, the Department has reserved final policy control = over the authoritative root server." Bill -=20 =20 This has already been discussed on this list recently, and you only = cite=20 a subset of the answer from the GAO. See attached prior email from = last=20 month on this list with slightly more context. FYI, /John Disclaimer: My views alone. =3D=3D=3D Begin forwarded message: > From: Milton L Mueller > Subject: Re: [discuss] discuss Digest, Vol 3, Issue 67 > Date: February 18, 2014 at 6:08:15 PM EST > To: Phil Corwin , "discuss@1net.org" = >=20 > Phil: > Your quotation from the GAO report of 2000 is rather selective. Here = is a fuller picture. >=20 > "... control over the authoritative root server is not based on any = statute or international agreement,..." >=20 > " The Department [of Commerce] has no specific statutory obligations = to manage the domain name system or to control the authoritative root = server." >=20 > "Although the U.S. government has supported and funded the development = of the domain name system, Congress has not chosen to legislate = specifically in this area, nor has it designated an agency to be = responsible for it. DOD, NSF, and now the Department have undertaken = their activities under their general authorities. " >=20 > "In its policy statement [the 1998 White Paper], the Department was = announcing that it planned to phase out its management role over the = domain name system, a role that the government had assumed when the = ARPANET was first developed. Since it is a role not specifically = required by statute, the Department was not delegating or transferring a = statutory duty when it proposed to transition administrative control = over the domain name system to a private entity. The Department = undertook its domain name system management responsibilities to carry = out the President's directive to support efforts to privatize the domain = name system. > Under these circumstances, neither the Department nor any other = federal agency is under an explicit statutory obligation to manage the = domain name system including control over the authoritative root = server." >=20 > This last paragraph convinces me that DoC has every right and = authority to relinquish its control by simply walking away from the IANA = contract when it expires in 2015 and announcing as a matter of policy = that the transition referenced in the White Paper is finished.=20 >=20 > I think the allegedly "unclear" nature of the transfer stems from the = GAO's lack of confidence in its knowledge of both the technology of the = root server system and its history. By supporting the development of the = DNS, the U.S. federal government did not create a "property" interest in = anything that I can see. It paid people to run a registry but as far as = I know it is not claiming a property interest in the root zone data.=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > discuss mailing list > discuss@1net.org > http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss From nobody Wed Mar 19 12:58:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F98A1A0823 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZSK4EAMeuKy for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41161A07FB for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (cpe-23-241-118-60.socal.res.rr.com [23.241.118.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s2JJum8b014384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: manning bill In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:56:48 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E3F1CF0-0659-49FB-B7D1-96F39CBA308B@isi.edu> References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <249F89A5-32BE-45A1-86F1-3A37B772A753@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <0B64A550-A1FE-4EE4-80A8-A10C794162F0@istaff.org> <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <20140319175449.5E10D2135C5@smtp2.arin.net> <43303780-D53D-429E-9528-3B62C928EEFB@istaff.org> To: John Curran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: bmanning@isi.edu Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/8UyRGjsp96MTm8nULZ-3RbQB9wY Cc: "comptoir@cafedu.com" , "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] DoC steers into uncharted waters. Expect legal challenges X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:58:38 -0000 thnaks John, that was lost in the deluge. :) /bill Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet. On 19March2014Wednesday, at 11:53, John Curran = wrote: > On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:44 PM, manning bill wrote: >=20 >> = http://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/03/legal-limits-on-the-transfer-of-control= -to-icann >>=20 >> Back in 2000, the question of transference was asked and the GAO = responded: >>=20 >> "The question of whether the Department has the authority to transfer = control of the authoritative root server to ICANN is a difficult one to = answer. Although control over the authoritative root server is not based = on any statute or international agreement, the government has long been = instrumental in supporting and developing the Internet and the domain = name system. The Department has no specific statutory obligations to = manage the domain name system or to control the authoritative root = server. It is uncertain whether transferring control would also include = transfer of government property to a private entity. Determining whether = there is government property may be difficult. To the extent that = transition of the management control to a private entity would involve = the transfer of government property, it is unclear if the Department has = the requisite authority to effect such a transfer. Since the Department = states that it has no plans to transfer the root server system, it has = not examined these issues. Currently, under the cooperative agreement = with Network Solutions, the Department has reserved final policy control = over the authoritative root server." >=20 > Bill -=20 >=20 > This has already been discussed on this list recently, and you only = cite=20 > a subset of the answer from the GAO. See attached prior email from = last=20 > month on this list with slightly more context. >=20 > FYI, > /John >=20 > Disclaimer: My views alone. >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> From: Milton L Mueller >> Subject: Re: [discuss] discuss Digest, Vol 3, Issue 67 >> Date: February 18, 2014 at 6:08:15 PM EST >> To: Phil Corwin , "discuss@1net.org" = >>=20 >> Phil: >> Your quotation from the GAO report of 2000 is rather selective. Here = is a fuller picture. >>=20 >> "... control over the authoritative root server is not based on any = statute or international agreement,..." >>=20 >> " The Department [of Commerce] has no specific statutory obligations = to manage the domain name system or to control the authoritative root = server." >>=20 >> "Although the U.S. government has supported and funded the = development of the domain name system, Congress has not chosen to = legislate specifically in this area, nor has it designated an agency to = be responsible for it. DOD, NSF, and now the Department have undertaken = their activities under their general authorities. " >>=20 >> "In its policy statement [the 1998 White Paper], the Department was = announcing that it planned to phase out its management role over the = domain name system, a role that the government had assumed when the = ARPANET was first developed. Since it is a role not specifically = required by statute, the Department was not delegating or transferring a = statutory duty when it proposed to transition administrative control = over the domain name system to a private entity. The Department = undertook its domain name system management responsibilities to carry = out the President's directive to support efforts to privatize the domain = name system. >> Under these circumstances, neither the Department nor any other = federal agency is under an explicit statutory obligation to manage the = domain name system including control over the authoritative root = server." >>=20 >> This last paragraph convinces me that DoC has every right and = authority to relinquish its control by simply walking away from the IANA = contract when it expires in 2015 and announcing as a matter of policy = that the transition referenced in the White Paper is finished.=20 >>=20 >> I think the allegedly "unclear" nature of the transfer stems from the = GAO's lack of confidence in its knowledge of both the technology of the = root server system and its history. By supporting the development of the = DNS, the U.S. federal government did not create a "property" interest in = anything that I can see. It paid people to run a registry but as far as = I know it is not claiming a property interest in the root zone data.=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> discuss mailing list >> discuss@1net.org >> http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Mar 22 03:33:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4841A0639 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 03:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.14] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pCPsz_yet4Bf for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 03:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335111A0953 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 03:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=25217 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WRJFB-0006rl-FV; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 03:33:37 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 11:33:27 +0100 To: David Cake ,McTim From: Jefsey In-Reply-To: References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/DuD767695DiP1uOzL8QTFlomWLQ Cc: "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] surveillance governance, was Re: [governance] NTIA statement X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:33:40 -0000 At 09:58 22/03/2014, David Cake wrote: >I would very much agree with Greg that Parminder's scenario of a >single entity (or even a single stakeholder group, or organised >cabal across a wide range of stakeholders) taking control of the >ICANN board is extremely farfetched, a matter for conspiracy theory >novels not a genuine worry. It is a scenario that does not plausibly >survive even a casual examination of how board members are selected. > >There is only one likely scenario of all ICANN board members having >their decision influenced by the same entity - and that entity is >ICANN itself. While an oversight mechanism should function in such a >way as to guard against a board that was all somehow controlled by a >commercial entity willing to patiently infiltrate and suborn a range >of ICANN processes, it should be focussed on the more likely issue >that ICANN board will take decisions that are in the interests of >ICANN itself, rather than the community it serves. David, McTim, let get real please. The far farfetched scenario is the one we are living with for 31 years and the majority of the world's multititude wants now to get rid off. The single entity has a name and reasons clearly explained in http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/farewell_address/1961_01_17_Press_Release.pdf. 53 years ago. The change is that this single entity was, in spite of RFC 3869 able to make RFC 6852 produced and obtained the Montevideo statement. However, what has changed since 1961, due to the internet, is that the 1961 warning is no more sent to the fellow Americans, but to the Multitude. And that the Multitude has a more powerfull capacity for peace, and also for war, than a single people, however great it can be. The question is simple enough: will the whole internet ordinarily become de facto under the sole US law jurisdiction as the NTIA statement leads to. Followed by a cecession (cyber)war. Let get real please. IG is not only a legal or technical issue, it is first a international political affair. We all know that the US are cyberdestructible. This list does not include many citizens of the Dubai majority (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121214/14133321389/who-signed-itu-wcit-treaty-who-didnt.shtml). Sao Paulo must not be a new Munich. jfc From nobody Sat Mar 22 08:55:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B481A040D for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o8mqr4tlUWlg for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920881A0128 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=13443 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WROGC-0006ps-2H; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:55:00 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:54:48 +0100 To: McTim ,"discuss@1net.org" , Michel Gauthier ,McTim , comptoir@cafedu.com,David Cake From: Jefsey In-Reply-To: References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <532d6718.c15fc20a.60a0.21edSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <012001cf4532$76fae830$64f0b890$@gmail.com> <20140321183053.GA38840@mx1.yitter.info> <014301cf4535$c767b700$56372500$@gmail.com> <20140321185735.GB38840@mx1.yitter.info> <532cd2b2.e7bcb40a.4a94.ffffed9fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <532d8c7e.8259440a.5ba8.ffffe7ebSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/2rwd3EDOOmyQpQSRlEgvLN9rYEw Cc: iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] surveillance governance,, etc. X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:55:03 -0000 At 13:28 22/03/2014, McTim wrote: >Why am I involved in this thread? Because you disregarded Michel Gauthier's reminder about IAB RFC 3869. >I've not commented at all since the subject line was changed and we >went down this particular rathole. >Leave me out of this nonsense please! I understand that this rathole and nonsense is the world peace. IMHO, you might be unfamiliar with press. Your kind of comments (this is your right), damages the image of the Dubai minority. >So far, you are not even speculating that there is an 'influencing >strategy", you are merely posting random factoids seemingly in >support of the other MGs snide insinuations. This strategy is plainly, publicly, and authoritatevely documented as such. In case you are not aware: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/press-release/2014/ntia-announces-intent-transition-key-internet-domain-name-functions Your comments on DNS-ORC and CAIDA (Michel Gauthier could have extended to W3C) show that you have not read the Farewell address I quoted. I really advise you to do it. There are good answers there to *every* "principle" (as Fadi would say) question discusssed on this list. Astonishing and refreshing, as it is a good, strong and determined US position set that for once everyone can most probably consensually adopt. And start from there. >My question to you still stands. >How would you like the IETF to be funded?? If you ask this to a journalist he will only report you do not any response yourself. BTW, if you do not know, why don't you ask the IAB? And then decide if you can accept the corresponding constraints. jfc From nobody Sat Mar 22 08:58:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6B71A0731 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vLbYva7VKvll for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5021A099A for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=13604 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WROJd-0007Lm-J6; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:58:34 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:58:24 +0100 To: Jari Arkko From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/b5UhocReUiZ09Q-PnrYaHPGDeR8 Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, "discuss@1net.org List" , iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [Internetgovtech] an initial proposal wrt IANA developments X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:58:38 -0000 Jari, for historic reasons, the NTIA/DoC/USG's vision of the internet, i.e. their virtual global network information center (INTERNIC), has prevailed in coordinating an accepted convenient reduction of the Internet capacities (particularly in the naming area) where: - the "US ccTLD" was the "elder" of the family - was organized by its government as "ICANN", - that other national ccTLDs joined in the ICANN/GAC to assist it in coordinating the DNS and the IP addressing plan. The NTIA retirement not only removes the USG historic participation, but it also calls for the same retirement by all the other Governments. The NTIA precludes to be replaced by any governmental organization. This is a complete change in the 36 year old nature of the international packet switch naming and addressing spaces. The IETF cannot do anything about it as it is not in the business of deciding who is a State, who is the political authority over a ccTLD, and who can delegate (ICANN or other) national address sets if such a thing exists. We, therefore, are in a situation where the "minority leader" (US), which assumed responsibility until now, quits in refusing the successor that the majority has decided on. Dubai WCIT is supported by nations covering 3.8 billion people, while the non-signatories cover 2.6 billion, and .6 billon had to technically abstain. This is a democratic, market, and political fact that the IETF cannot oppose, but has to consider in order to get it technically addressed. IETF, IAB, ISOC, W3C, and IEEE and IETF, IAB, ISOC, W3C, RIRs, and ICANN have committed to positions that give leadership either to economical and/or political decisions that informed users from the Libre, Institutional and Competitive sectors (IUsers) and other affected parties have not, so far, published that they had understood, or approved. I appealed them, allowing me to appeal to ISOC, what I would not prefer to do as long as other possibilities of consensus have not been proposed, studied, and exhausted. The situation which is likely to develop is the situation that the NTIA's strategy has tried to prevent for 30 years, because it reflects the reality of the world's diversity independence from US interests. This means a multiple class DNS and ISO 3166 structured IPv6 addressing plan and registries. The question is, therefore, who is to provide the necessary documentation, for this to happen in good order, knowing that: - this documentation should be public domain, i.e. not under IETF Trust Copyright and with the capacity to impeach derivative work. - it is very simple to organize from ISO 3166. - neither the NTIA nor the multitude will accept it to be published by a governmental multilateral body, what ISO is not. ICANN, being a member of the ISO 3166/MA (Maintenance Agency), I suggest that: - the necessary documents of reference are written and maintained as a new work intended proposal (NWIP) by this maintenance agency. Such an NWIP could be introduced by ANSI and written by ICANN. It would then be subject to the vote of every nation in terms of participation and contribution. - every affected party (IETF, ICANN, Govs, private sector organizations, JTC1, ITU, civil society organization, the multitude of persons) could then send the ISO 3166/MA recommendations and suggest members for an advisory panel to review and consolidate them. The NWIP could determine the rules governing the selection process of such a panel in such a way that a full MS approach is respected including the Public, Private, Civil, Libre, Technical, and Academic sector. - the maintenance of this list could be assumed within the DNSA framework under the supervision of the ISO 3166/MA agency in order to provide good reactivity and permit a permanent MS multilogue under the auspices of the independent non-Governmental normative leading agency whose standard has ensured the international stability of the international data services since their very inception in full coherence with the whole global standardization process. I note that if the post-NTIA transition is not seamless and this scheme has not been explored, documented and engaged by an IETF/ICANN/DNSA working group, responsibility will lie with IETF and/or ICANN. jfc From nobody Sat Mar 22 10:03:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C44C1A0794 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZxW6QcuOU7MW for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x231.google.com (mail-qg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0095D1A0128 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id z60so11164816qgd.8 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ghiofX3XzC0j44wcsIaePIq2RsBICOvTbRU3j82FfrM=; b=zruHM1hpggxMpp+Jzc83j1l7yRqQ210M5ff0V55PlL9/0YAvW1yswEr6UMjGQarYD8 d36VrkfJbbWi6cMS4OAvF14eqqKTvunqTj8HBjP0NXzVfCRA5sxKHQdP7VeFL9OPEQlM P4IukfGAgshhLPZsrB94N/yCc231MYw5LBSX3Pqq5z3V1r7uWGd4OSNSV5Qd6SHheGy5 FVSh97vg1uTnxbkolJD2hBDIOnB9jHYjAHUCdmtNyNVxb0CIv4F2EVMnJl/bJgGpsGLx LOYBFM/JdpjvyeCwGbZX+6ldjJcR5IIeWQSbOzRVUErs418PPRpLHQtlKlsxhjTpKHC/ 09+Q== X-Received: by 10.140.108.2 with SMTP id i2mr2780595qgf.80.1395507783522; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.80.229 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:02:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <532db256.07fd420a.2887.ffffacb4SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <532d6718.c15fc20a.60a0.21edSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <012001cf4532$76fae830$64f0b890$@gmail.com> <20140321183053.GA38840@mx1.yitter.info> <014301cf4535$c767b700$56372500$@gmail.com> <20140321185735.GB38840@mx1.yitter.info> <532cd2b2.e7bcb40a.4a94.ffffed9fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <532d8c7e.8259440a.5ba8.ffffe7ebSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <532db256.07fd420a.2887.ffffacb4SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> From: McTim Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:02:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jefsey Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ab74ab7e1f004f534f9f1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/N_nq78goiqIncYgMe1DIjXpwGtc Cc: David Cake , comptoir@cafedu.com, "discuss@1net.org" , iucg@ietf.org, Michel Gauthier Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] surveillance governance,, etc. X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:03:07 -0000 --001a113ab74ab7e1f004f534f9f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jefsey, On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Jefsey wrote: > At 13:28 22/03/2014, McTim wrote: > >> Why am I involved in this thread? >> > > Because you disregarded Michel Gauthier's reminder about IAB RFC 3869. > I didn't 'disregard" it, I merely pointed out that it wasn't germane. > > I've not commented at all since the subject line was changed and we went >> down this particular rathole. >> Leave me out of this nonsense please! >> > > I understand that this rathole and nonsense is the world peace. IMHO, you > might be unfamiliar with press. Your kind of comments (this is your right), > damages the image of the Dubai minority. > I did't comment at all in this new thread until you pulled me in. It is silly to suggest that anything I say can damage the reputations of dozens of governments. > > So far, you are not even speculating that there is an 'influencing >> strategy", you are merely posting random factoids seemingly in support of >> the other MGs snide insinuations. >> > > This strategy is plainly, publicly, and authoritatevely documented as > such. In case you are not aware: > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/press-release/2014/ntia-announces- > intent-transition-key-internet-domain-name-functions Complete non-sequitor. This announcement is NOT about IETF funding or the alleged influencing of the IETF due to funding meetings. > > > Your comments on DNS-ORC and CAIDA (Michel Gauthier could have extended to > W3C) show that you have not read the Farewell address I quoted. One has nothing to do with the other. > I really advise you to do it. I have, several times. We obviously disagree on its meaning. > There are good answers there to *every* "principle" (as Fadi would say) > question discusssed on this list. Astonishing and refreshing, as it is a > good, strong and determined US position set that for once everyone can most > probably consensually adopt. And start from there. > > My question to you still stands. >> How would you like the IETF to be funded?? >> > > If you ask this to a journalist he will only report you do not any > response yourself. > I think I made clear that I thought it was good news. -- Cheers, McTim "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel --001a113ab74ab7e1f004f534f9f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jefsey,


On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Jefsey <<= a href=3D"mailto:jefsey@jefsey.com" target=3D"_blank">jefsey@jefsey.com= > wrote:
At 13:28 22/03/2014, McTim wrote:
Why am I involved in this thread?

Because you disregarded Michel Gauthier's reminder about IAB RFC 3869.<= br>


I didn't 'disreg= ard" it, I merely pointed out that it wasn't germane.

=A0

I've not commented at all since the subject line was changed and we wen= t down this particular rathole.
Leave me out of this nonsense please!

I understand that this rathole and nonsense is the world peace. IMHO, you m= ight be unfamiliar with press. Your kind of comments (this is your right), = damages the image of the Dubai minority.


I did't comment at all in this new thread until you= pulled me in. =A0It is silly to suggest that anything I say can damage the= reputations of dozens of governments.

=A0

So far, you are not even speculating that there is an 'influencing stra= tegy", you are merely posting random factoids seemingly in support of = the other MGs snide insinuations.

This strategy is plainly, publicly, and authoritatevely documented as such.= In case you are not aware:
http://ww= w.ntia.doc.gov/press-release/2014/ntia-announces-intent-trans= ition-key-internet-domain-name-functions


Complete non-sequitor. =A0This announcem= ent is NOT about IETF funding or the alleged influencing of the IETF due to= funding meetings.=A0

=A0


Your comments on DNS-ORC and CAIDA (Michel Gauthier could have extended to = W3C) show that you have not read the Farewell address I quoted.


One has nothing to do with the other.

=A0
I really advis= e you to do it.



<= div> I have, several times. =A0We obviously disagree on its meaning.
<= br>
=A0
There are good answer= s there to *every* "principle" (as Fadi would say) question discu= sssed on this list. Astonishing and refreshing, as it is a good, strong and= determined US position set that for once everyone can most probably consen= sually adopt. And start from there.

My question to you still stands.
How would you like the IETF to be funded??

If you ask this to a journalist he will only report you do not any response= yourself.


I think I mad= e clear that I thought it was good news.


--
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we see= k. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there.&qu= ot;=A0 Jon Postel
--001a113ab74ab7e1f004f534f9f1-- From nobody Sat Mar 22 16:35:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47ED1A06D8 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3zMM--f28jPe for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate5.urz.uni-halle.de (mailgate5.urz.uni-halle.de [141.48.3.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A211A078F for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uni-halle.de; s=uhal1dkim; h=To:From:References:Message-id:Date:Subject; bh=5fIilDScnVWDLIqz0jnAHb2f/mtKYWAYJQqCwzaOg4w=; b=DbheeY8fsb138QAKWlYUvSfRQOfJoFdwCtXJk7lOU5YqFYMqi7HiYLUY7xXnOn7/rWESO2KRkqdZsjdlpTaNCt4+wr2t+gjHquPABiBpw1Zu5GQm4TDZzFoJWYpyBT7GwxHvJ9pinZEJ+ni8YMsslC4Fiv6LvT8zcWmdSEz2H24=; Received: from mserv3.urz.uni-halle.de ([141.48.3.161]) by mlucom18.urz.uni-halle.de with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.82) id 1WQLHg-0005na-My ; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:32:12 +0100 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Received: from server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de ([141.48.60.51]) by mail.uni-halle.de (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-16.01 (built Sep 30 2011; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0N2P00JKE4TJNM80@mail.uni-halle.de>; Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:32:07 +0100 (CET) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:32:06 +0100 Message-id: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420CC@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-topic: [discuss] ICANN governance structure Thread-index: Ac9DnaMWsfrBHq74RXuDF/M4bdT1lgAAdpGa References: <5327E896.9000808@itforchange.net> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A8016420AD@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <82D12391-2ABB-4657-8B4C-58962569937D@Malcolm.id.au> <4BF15867-13C5-4AB5-8FC7-91969AA99D4F@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <56496CD0-13CD-44BB-AD4F-A24CFD47080D@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <249F89A5-32BE-45A1-86F1-3A37B772A753@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <0B64A550-A1FE-4EE4-80A8-A10C794162F0@istaff.org> <0138C42B-0CFE-4B8B-8039-CC2A651991EC@darwin.ptvy.ca.us> <20140319175449.5E10D2135C5@smtp2.arin.net> <43303780-D53D-429E-9528-3B62C928EEFB@istaff.org> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Kleinw=E4chter=2C_Wolfgang=22?= To: John Curran , JFC Morfin X-Scan-Signature: a5d1d8901da1864a140957f50574c644 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/GuRZbsCcdTZmatRQIL-xOUzWiW8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:35:01 -0700 Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com, discuss@1net.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] ICANN governance structure X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:32:26 -0000 =20 His latest speech before the US Congress capture his main ideas about = ICANN. Unfortunately the US Congress Website doesn=B4t work anymore. I = have a paper copy but do not find now. Will scan and distribute it as = soon I have it. Probably somebody else has the text.=20 =20 = = 7-Oct-98 - Transferring the Domain Name System to the Private = Sector: Private Sector Implementation of the Administration's Internet = White Paper. Testimony = before U.S. House = of Representatives Committee on Science, Subcommittee on Basic Research = and Subcommittee on Technology: Opening Statement of Honorable Charles W. "Chip" Pickering = - Acting Chairman, = Subcommittee on Basic Research Chairwoman Constance A. Morella = - Committee on Science Hon. James A. Barcia - = Subcommittee on Technology Gabriel Battista - = CEO, Network Solutions, Inc. =20 J. Beckwith Burr - = Associate Administrator (Acting), NTIA =20 Tamar Frankel - = Professor of Law, Boston University; Chair, IFWP =20 Dr. Jon Postel (read = by Attorney Joe Sims) - Director, Computer Networks Divison, Information = Sciences Institute; Administrator, IANA =20 Joe Sims, Esq. Supplemental = Submission - Attorney, ICANN =20 =09 We discussed this issue at length also in the WGIG. Here is an article I = wrote in 2005 http://www.wgig.org/docs/book/Wolfgang_Kleinw%C3%A4chter%20.pdf Wolfgang =20 ________________________________ Von: discuss-bounces@1net.org im Auftrag von John Curran Gesendet: Mi 19.03.2014 19:02 An: JFC Morfin Cc: comptoir@cafedu.com; discuss@1net.org; iucg@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [discuss] ICANN governance structure On Mar 19, 2014, at 6:52 PM, JFC Morfin wrote: > Mike and John, > > Your memories are important. What I gather is that the key evaluation = is "The Board discovered almost immediately that Jon's dream of decision = making outside of ICANN had no legal basis". > > 1. would you have a precise description of Jon's dream? I have no idea, but am aware of the Green Paper, the White Paper, and = ICANN's initial Bylaws as documents which reflect some of his views in creating = a more substantial structure for performance of the IANA tasks. FYI, /John Disclaimer: My views alone. _______________________________________________ discuss mailing list discuss@1net.org http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss From nobody Mon Mar 24 08:31:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B4F1A0238 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.625 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.625 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497, PLING_QUERY=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8UyBf1kakGG for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B351A0233 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=31827 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WS6q5-0005hW-Jj; Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:31:02 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 16:30:54 +0100 To: governance@lists.igcaucus.org,Jeremy Malcolm , governance@lists.igcaucus.org,Suresh Ramasubramanian From: Jefsey In-Reply-To: <70F0E57A-CE6B-48B8-9CEE-7E9BA03DCE65@Malcolm.id.au> References: <012001cf4532$76fae830$64f0b890$@gmail.com> <20140321183053.GA38840@mx1.yitter.info> <014301cf4535$c767b700$56372500$@gmail.com> <20140321185735.GB38840@mx1.yitter.info> <532cd2b2.e7bcb40a.4a94.ffffed9fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <532d8c7e.8259440a.5ba8.ffffe7ebSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <048d01cf45f0$320241b0$9606c510$@gmail.com> <532DEC08.5010703@cs.tcd.ie> <057201cf4618$602d61a0$208824e0$@gmail.com> <532E0E64.2040007@cs.tcd.ie> <05be01cf4625$09172600$1b457200$@gmail.com> <6B3E8613-BF81-477F-B3AB-7B2E18598430@virtualized.org> <532E3159.9020800@cs.tcd.ie> <062301cf4636$72739730$575ac590$@gmail.com> <532E3A22.8020202@cs.tcd.ie> <532E8657.9040602@itforchange.net> <532EE25B.8060004@afilias.info> <144ef36e0b8.27e9.4f968dcf8ecd56c9cb8acab6370fcfe0@hserus.net> <88C1432A-35B6-46E6-A431-95F803E12516@hserus.net> <70F0E57A-CE6B-48B8-9CEE-7E9BA03DCE65@Malcolm.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/HEBSAMbzdw2_AsS0ffCfYqTmvks Cc: Ken Stubbs , "" , iucg@ietf.org, Alejandro Pisanty Subject: Re: [iucg] [governance] Re: [discuss] Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:31:05 -0000 Dear Suresh, I see the good response Jeremy made. I take back the full thread for it to be clearer. >> > At 14:52 23/03/2014, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: >> >> Fully agree. Which is why I am glad that parminders views are >> still a tiny minority not shared by civil society in general. >> > You phrased it very well in using "still" as he seems to >> represent a broad part of the informed still absentees. >> > It would probably be advisable to consider Parminder's views are >> the people's common view, and find ways to show they are wrong at >> least in the future we foresee. >> > I will take an example you know well: spam. Spam (as well as >> other cyber threats) partly comes from the Internet architectural >> choices making true origin complex to identify. These >> architectural choices are technical yet they affects the life and >> the purse of billion people. >At 03:47 24/03/2014, Jeremy Malcolm wrote: >>On 24 Mar 2014, at 9:21 am, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: >> > Because you are good enough to say that I know spam well .. I am >> sorry, how or why is the true origin of spam or any sort of email >> complex to identify? At least from the perspective of a >> receiving mail system, there is the originating IP address, there >> are various authentication mechanisms (such as DMARC) which allow >> receiving systems to identify and flag / reject forged mail etc etc. > >What Jefsey's point may have been (not trying to put words into his >mouth, but this is my interpretation) is that one of the >characteristic faults of the technical community is that it is prone >to uncritically laud the Internet's architecture as being wholly >beneficial, neutral in terms of welfare distribution, and fully >supportive of democratic ideals (or worse, a substitute for >democratic ideals). In reality the effects of those architectural >choices are very much more of a mixed bag, with some gains and some >losses, unequally distributed, and with limited accountability to >those affected by them. So the simple example (perhaps) being given >is that is that spam is a problem that was enabled by the >architectural choices made by the Internet technical community, the >very same choices that also provide us with many positive benefits >such as resilience against censorship (but also other negatives such >as vulnerability to surveillance). >On 24 Mar 2014, at 9:21 am, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote >The opinion of the common people, you say, favors exclusively >governmental funding and pushes for intergovernmental control (minus >the USA, ideally) of the Internet? That would be strange >indeed. And how many of the common people are informed enough on >igov to form their own opinion without falling for the first >inflammatory and poorly reported / slanted article they read on >either side of this debate? What is being done to reach out to them? I did not say common people. There is no need to reach out to those I discuss: the informed ones. These are the people I know because they send me mails as a facilitator for the IUCG@IETF which has also the task to interface them with the IETF if they wishes. I must say that they are generally in agreement with the IAB evaluation of RFC 3869. Obviously I try to insist on the fact that non-commercial contributions the IAB ask for includes FLOSS, as I do. But I must say that FLOSS people are more interested in applications. Network lead users have not real time to spare to discuss standardization. I suppose that the USG will now feel more free to propose a strategic global development plan for a new network technology, leaving the industry and ICANN to take care of the Internet layers? For example: in 2014 it is http://www.darpa.mil/cybergrandchallenge/, may be a new architecture for the digisphere in 2015? jfc From nobody Wed Mar 26 02:12:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524221A02EC for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 02:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.632 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hR-y9770cKA7 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 02:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4AE1A02F5 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 02:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=42000 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WSjsP-0000sh-5i; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 02:12:01 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:11:55 +0100 To: "discuss@1net.org List" From: Jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_226480863==.ALT" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/uRMK6PglZDfzyzUxGbLccZt56co Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , ianatransition@icann.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: [iucg] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:12:05 -0000 --=====================_226480863==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The first question should be "what is MSism". I have posted this definition and its comparison with polycracy. I am surprised by the resulting general agreement (no one opposed). I therefore copy it to some other mailing lists, so we have a common working basis. ---- MSism, as we hear of it, is shaped from Doug Engelbart's (http://www.dougengelbart.org/about/dce-bio.html) concepts. It is a diktyarchy (from diktyos: network) i.e. an intergovernance between peer structured autoselected entities. The autoselection process is based upon the time network/global availability, i.e. the capacity to collectively meet on a mailing list and anytime anywhere. This is to produce the buzz that will exceed the noise of reality and the squawk of the multitude. It is to polycracy the equivalent of monarchy to democracy. Technically, MS proceeds from a root/server/client hierarchic model (however its slogan is "on an equal footing" [for the leaders only, cf. RFC 6852, Montevideo statement], while polycracy proceeds from a "master and master" open capability model. The difficulty in the extension from democracy to polycracy is that diktyarchy looks democratic to the onlooker: democracy is about decision decentralization; MSism keeps that decision decentralization within its political, business, and societal structures that dialogue together. Polycracy is actually about decision distribution among political, business, and societal individuals who multilogue together in any manner they wish and decide by themselves. This is why MSism is a method to deploy "reasonable" decisions collectively agreed among mutually accepted share/status/stake-holders, while polycracy is the autopoietic emergence of the life of the multitude through individual considered decisions. Both systems are adapted to our time. MSism is selected network centric, and polycracy is people centered. In MSism, structures (states and corporates) ally to govern the "others", i.e. the WSIS definition of the "civil society", and sponsor politically acceptable civil society structures. It is an interesting concept by its "mid-up/down" practical capacities of substitution: it is alliances centered. In its own turn, polycracy accepts substitution but only in its normal role of substitution of subsidiarity: it is people centered. What is at stake in here for the Internet Governance is the virtual world built as an ICANN contractual diktyarchy vs. a real world that will progressively erode the NTIA leadership in an operational polycracy. The real question is about whether this evolution will occur in the most seamless way possible, in the best respect of the "digility" (from digital personality) of everyone. This is why I propose to start from what we know, as the WSIS has advised. If we proceed from the person ("centrada en la persona" says the Spanish version of the WSIS declaration) entering the digisphere, i.e. the digitally split vision of its environmental reality, and considers its digital rights. We can pursue with the inviolability of people's "digicile" (digital-domicile: using simple, clear, universally understandable notions extending our daily life in the digisphere through direct metaphors can only help). From there we can then proceed and differentiate what belongs to physical government, ethical behavior, and digital governance. --=====================_226480863==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" The first question should be "what is MSism". I have posted this definition and its comparison with polycracy. I am surprised by the resulting general agreement (no one opposed). I therefore copy it to some other mailing lists, so we have a common working basis.

----

MSism, as we hear of it, is shaped from Doug Engelbarts ( http://www.dougengelbart.org/about/dce-bio.html ) concepts. It is a diktyarchy (from diktyos: network) i.e. an intergovernance between peer structured autoselected entities. The autoselection process is based upon the time network/global availability, i.e. the capacity to collectively meet on a mailing list and anytime anywhere. This is to produce the buzz that will exceed the noise of reality and the squawk of the multitude. It is to polycracy the equivalent of monarchy to democracy. Technically, MS proceeds from a root/server/client hierarchic model (however its slogan is "on an equal footing" [for the leaders only, cf. RFC 6852, Montevideo statement], while polycracy proceeds from a "master and master" open capability model.

The difficulty in the extension from democracy to polycracy is that diktyarchy looks democratic to the onlooker: democracy is about decision decentralization; MSism keeps that decision decentralization within its political, business, and societal structures that dialogue together. Polycracy is actually about decision distribution among political, business, and societal individuals who multilogue together in any manner they wish and decide by themselves.

This is why MSism is a method to deploy "reasonable" decisions collectively agreed among mutually accepted share/status/stake-holders, while polycracy is the autopoietic emergence of the life of the multitude through individual considered decisions. Both systems are adapted to our time. MSism is selected network centric, and polycracy is people centered.

In MSism, structures (states and corporates) ally to govern the "others", i.e. the WSIS definition of the "civil society", and sponsor politically acceptable civil society structures. It is an interesting concept by its "mid-up/down" practical capacities of substitution: it is alliances centered. In its own turn, polycracy accepts substitution but only in its normal role of substitution of subsidiarity: it is people centered.

What is at stake in here for the Internet Governance is the virtual world built as an ICANN contractual diktyarchy vs. a real world that will progressively erode the NTIA leadership in an operational polycracy. The real question is about whether this evolution will occur in the most seamless way possible, in the best respect of the "digility" (from digital personality) of everyone.

This is why I propose to start from what we know, as the WSIS has advised. If we proceed from the person ("centrada en la persona" says the Spanish version of the WSIS declaration) entering the digisphere, i.e. the digitally split vision of its environmental reality, and considers its digital rights. We can pursue with the inviolability of peoples digicile (digital-domicile: using simple, clear, universally understandable notions extending our daily life in the digisphere through direct metaphors can only help). From there we can then proceed and differentiate what belongs to physical government, ethical behavior, and digital governance. --=====================_226480863==.ALT-- From nobody Wed Mar 26 03:51:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C68B1A0314 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 03:51:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dz49t-2N5soa for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 03:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us-smtp-1.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-1.mimecast.com [207.211.31.120]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFBE1A0315 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 03:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdce1.reedsmith.com (pdce1.reedsmith.com [199.125.201.10]) (Using TLS) by us-mta-5.us.mimecast.lan; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:51:33 -0400 Received: from USPDCMAIL006P.reedsmith.com (10.180.2.6) by pdce1.reedsmith.com (10.180.221.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.4; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:51:31 -0400 Received: from USPDCMAIL002P.reedsmith.com ([fe80::78c8:1ed3:1b7a:8fd]) by USPDCMAIL006P.reedsmith.com ([fe80::6095:f68c:6d1c:703a%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.007; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:51:31 -0400 From: "Shatan, Gregory S." To: 'Jefsey' , "discuss@1net.org List" Thread-Topic: [discuss] What is MSism? Thread-Index: AQHPSNOXH5U+FGjmREW6QFFwYFCY+JrzLnPg Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:51:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <01534.114032605130103203@us-mta-3.us.mimecast.lan> In-Reply-To: <01534.114032605130103203@us-mta-3.us.mimecast.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.180.2.100] x-exclaimer-md-config: 35a2a35a-5651-415b-b3fc-0e9c17e2e02e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MC-Unique: TXxv8Zm2SACNz2MU_xEetg-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF27222C20929USPDCMAIL002Pre_" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/7PzxErLox0gej5U9ok0LS-6NpPs Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "ianatransition@icann.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:51:53 -0000 --_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF27222C20929USPDCMAIL002Pre_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TXkgcmVzcG9uc2UgdG8gdGhpcyBwb3N0IGlzIHRvIHBvaW50IHRvIHR3byBvZiBHZW9yZ2XigJlz IGV0aXF1ZXR0ZSBpdGVtczoNCg0KOS4gSWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vIHJlc3BvbnNlcyB0byBhIHBv c3QsIHBvc3RlcnMgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgbWF0ZXJpYWwgdGhleSBoYXZl IHBvc3RlZCBoYXMgYmVlbiBhZ3JlZWQgdG8gYnkgcmVhZGVycy4gIFBlb3BsZSBvbiB0aGUgbGlz dCBnZW5lcmFsbHkgaGF2ZSBidXN5IGxpdmVzLCBhbmQgb2Z0ZW4gd2lsbCBub3QgcmVzcG9uZCB0 byBwb3N0cy4gIFN0YXRlbWVudHMgc3VjaCBhcyDigJxubyBvbmUgb24gdGhlIGxpc3QgaGFzIHJl ZnV0ZWQgbXkgc3RhdGVtZW50IHlldCIgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBsZWFkIHRvIHRoZSBhc3N1bXB0aW9u 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IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, MISSING_MID=0.497, T_FRT_COCK=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xz35hZNM0oyT for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDE01A033A for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 229.77.14.81.rev.sfr.net ([81.14.77.229]:50921 helo=GHM-SAM.dot.dj) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WSnV1-00074E-9Y; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:04:08 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 14:02:33 +0100 To: "Shatan, Gregory S." , 'Jefsey' ,"discuss@1net.org List" From: Michel Gauthier In-Reply-To: References: <01534.114032605130103203@us-mta-3.us.mimecast.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_240048800==.ALT" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - telepresse.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: intl+dot.dj/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/KoPcES-2wzrtFD4YF6e6YtR-mgg Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "ianatransition@icann.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:04:13 -0000 --=====================_240048800==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit May be, Greg, you have not read the whole mail of George when is says one should read before responding. Nor read the mail of JFC when he says that he will consider George's mail (it is more kindly said) only when George will apply his own rules to himeself. This response of yours only gives the feeling that you do not know how to comment JFC definitions. JFC, I am quite interested in your clear explanation of what MSism and polycracy (might) mean. However, I feel you make a dichotomy between those two, or at least between diktyarchy and polycracy while one could imagine (it seems it is what we do all the day long) a complementarity between those two. On your French list you use the idea of the multitude having to invest the magnitude's mailing lists in order to keep themselves abreast, I would say, of the way they are going to be coocked. Is that not some forme of cooperation between the Cook and the cooked? M G At 11:51 26/03/2014, Shatan, Gregory S. wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >boundary="_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF27222C20929USPDCMAIL002Pre_" > >My response to this post is to point to two of George’s etiquette items: > >9. If there are no responses to a post, posters should not assume >that the material they have posted has been agreed to by >readers. People on the list generally have busy lives, and often >will not respond to posts. Statements such as “no one on the list >has refuted my statement yet" should not lead to the assumption that >others agree with it. It is equally likely that the post is judged >to be incorrect or irrelevant. Readers have no obligation to correct >erroneous material that has been posted to the list by others. > >5. Successful posts use vocabulary that is simple and whose meaning >is well-understood by readers of the list. Successful posts are >formatted with some care so that they are easily readable by others. > >And I would also point to my suggested item of etiquette: > >Don’t cross-post, except to provide some basic information that >needs to be disseminated widely (e.g., NTIA announcement or Marca >Civil), and even this should be avoided. Don’t cross-post >opinions or anything that would require a response. Don’t >cross-post replies. > >Greg Shatan > >From: discuss-bounces@1net.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org] On >Behalf Of Jefsey >Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:12 PM >To: discuss@1net.org List >Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org; ianatransition@icann.org; iucg@ietf.org >Subject: [discuss] What is MSism? > >The first question should be "what is MSism". I have posted this >definition and its comparison with polycracy. I am surprised by the >resulting general agreement (no one opposed). I therefore copy it to >some other mailing lists, so we have a common working basis. > >---- > >MSism, as we hear of it, is shaped from Doug Engelbart’s ( >http://www.dougengelbart.org/about/dce-bio.html ) concepts. It is a >diktyarchy (from diktyos: network) i.e. an intergovernance between >peer structured autoselected entities. The autoselection process is >based upon the time network/global availability, i.e. the capacity >to collectively meet on a mailing list and anytime anywhere. This is >to produce the buzz that will exceed the noise of reality and the >squawk of the multitude. It is to polycracy the equivalent of >monarchy to democracy. Technically, MS proceeds from a >root/server/client hierarchic model (however its slogan is "on an >equal footing" [for the leaders only, cf. RFC 6852, Montevideo >statement], while polycracy proceeds from a "master and master" open >capability model. > >The difficulty in the extension from democracy to polycracy is that >diktyarchy looks democratic to the onlooker: democracy is about >decision decentralization; MSism keeps that decision >decentralization within its political, business, and societal >structures that dialogue together. Polycracy is actually about >decision distribution among political, business, and societal >individuals who multilogue together in any manner they wish and >decide by themselves. > >This is why MSism is a method to deploy "reasonable" decisions >collectively agreed among mutually accepted >share/status/stake-holders, while polycracy is the autopoietic >emergence of the life of the multitude through individual considered >decisions. Both systems are adapted to our time. MSism is selected >network centric, and polycracy is people centered. > >In MSism, structures (states and corporates) ally to govern the >"others", i.e. the WSIS definition of the "civil society", and >sponsor politically acceptable civil society structures. It is an >interesting concept by its "mid-up/down" practical capacities of >substitution: it is alliances centered. In its own turn, polycracy >accepts substitution but only in its normal role of substitution of >subsidiarity: it is people centered. > >What is at stake in here for the Internet Governance is the virtual >world built as an ICANN contractual diktyarchy vs. a real world that >will progressively erode the NTIA leadership in an operational >polycracy. The real question is about whether this evolution will >occur in the most seamless way possible, in the best respect of the >"digility" (from digital personality) of everyone. > >This is why I propose to start from what we know, as the WSIS has >advised. If we proceed from the person ("centrada en la persona" >says the Spanish version of the WSIS declaration) entering the >digisphere, i.e. the digitally split vision of its environmental >reality, and considers its digital rights. We can pursue with the >inviolability of people’s “digicile” (digital-domicile: using >simple, clear, universally understandable notions extending our >daily life in the digisphere through direct metaphors can only >help). From there we can then proceed and differentiate what belongs >to physical government, ethical behavior, and digital governance. > > > >* * * > >This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential >and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in >error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately >by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. >Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its >contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation. > >* * * > >To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform >you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal >tax advice contained in this communication (including any >attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be >used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal >Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) >promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any >tax-related matters addressed herein. > >Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00 > >_______________________________________________ >discuss mailing list >discuss@1net.org >http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss --=====================_240048800==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit May be, Greg, you have not read the whole mail of George when is says one should read before responding. Nor read the mail of JFC when he says that he will consider George's mail (it is more kindly said) only when George will apply his own rules to himeself. This response of yours only gives the feeling that you do not know how to comment JFC definitions.


JFC, I am quite interested in your clear explanation of what MSism and polycracy (might) mean. However, I feel you make a dichotomy between those two, or at least between diktyarchy and polycracy while one could imagine (it seems it is what we do all the day long) a complementarity between those two. On your French list you use the idea of the multitude having to invest the magnitude's mailing lists in order to keep themselves abreast, I would say, of the way they are going to be coocked. Is that not some forme of cooperation between the Cook and the cooked?

M G


At 11:51 26/03/2014, Shatan, Gregory S. wrote:
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF27222C20929USPDCMAIL002Pre_"

My response to this post is to point to two of George’s etiquette items:
 
9. If there are no responses to a post, posters should not assume that the material they have posted has been agreed to by readers.  People on the list generally have busy lives, and often will not respond to posts.  Statements such as “no one on the list has refuted my statement yet" should not lead to the assumption that others agree with it.  It is equally likely that the post is judged to be incorrect or irrelevant. Readers have no obligation to correct erroneous material that has been posted to the list by others.
 
5. Successful posts use vocabulary that is simple and whose meaning is well-understood by readers of the list.  Successful posts are formatted  with some care so that they are easily readable by others.
 
And I would also point to my suggested item of etiquette:
 
Don’t cross-post, except to provide some basic information that needs to be disseminated widely (e.g., NTIA announcement or Marca Civil), and even this should be avoided.  Don’t cross-post opinions or anything that would require a response.  Don’t cross-post replies.
 
Greg Shatan
 
From: discuss-bounces@1net.org [ mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org] On Behalf Of Jefsey
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:12 PM
To: discuss@1net.org List
Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org; ianatransition@icann.org; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: [discuss] What is MSism?
 
The first question should be "what is MSism". I have posted this definition and its comparison with polycracy. I am surprised by the resulting general agreement (no one opposed). I therefore copy it to some other mailing lists, so we have a common working basis.

----

MSism, as we hear of it, is shaped from Doug Engelbart’s ( http://www.dougengelbart.org/about/dce-bio.html ) concepts. It is a diktyarchy (from diktyos: network) i.e. an intergovernance between peer structured autoselected entities. The autoselection process is based upon the time network/global availability, i.e. the capacity to collectively meet on a mailing list and anytime anywhere. This is to produce the buzz that will exceed the noise of reality and the squawk of the multitude. It is to polycracy the equivalent of monarchy to democracy. Technically, MS proceeds from a root/server/client hierarchic model (however its slogan is "on an equal footing" [for the leaders only, cf. RFC 6852, Montevideo statement], while polycracy proceeds from a "master and master" open capability model.

The difficulty in the extension from democracy to polycracy is that diktyarchy looks democratic to the onlooker: democracy is about decision decentralization; MSism keeps that decision decentralization within its political, business, and societal structures that dialogue together. Polycracy is actually about decision distribution among political, business, and societal individuals who multilogue together in any manner they wish and decide by themselves.

This is why MSism is a method to deploy "reasonable" decisions collectively agreed among mutually accepted share/status/stake-holders, while polycracy is the autopoietic emergence of the life of the multitude through individual considered decisions. Both systems are adapted to our time. MSism is selected network centric, and polycracy is people centered.

In MSism, structures (states and corporates) ally to govern the "others", i.e. the WSIS definition of the "civil society", and sponsor politically acceptable civil society structures. It is an interesting concept by its "mid-up/down" practical capacities of substitution: it is alliances centered. In its own turn, polycracy accepts substitution but only in its normal role of substitution of subsidiarity: it is people centered.

What is at stake in here for the Internet Governance is the virtual world built as an ICANN contractual diktyarchy vs. a real world that will progressively erode the NTIA leadership in an operational polycracy. The real question is about whether this evolution will occur in the most seamless way possible, in the best respect of the "digility" (from digital personality) of everyone.

This is why I propose to start from what we know, as the WSIS has advised. If we proceed from the person ("centrada en la persona" says the Spanish version of the WSIS declaration) entering the digisphere, i.e. the digitally split vision of its environmental reality, and considers its digital rights. We can pursue with the inviolability of people’s “digicile” (digital-domicile: using simple, clear, universally understandable notions extending our daily life in the digisphere through direct metaphors can only help). From there we can then proceed and differentiate what belongs to physical government, ethical behavior, and digital governance.

 

* * *

This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation.

* * *

To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal tax advice contained in this communication  (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.

Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00

_______________________________________________
discuss mailing list
discuss@1net.org
http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--=====================_240048800==.ALT-- From nobody Wed Mar 26 09:07:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E6F1A00E3 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:07:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FRT_COCK=1.544, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FRT_COCK=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9gcBhHPEX-g for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us-smtp-1.mimecast.com (us-smtp-2.mimecast.com [205.139.110.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8E01A0332 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdce1.reedsmith.com (pdce1.reedsmith.com [199.125.201.10]) (Using TLS) by us-mta-2.us.mimecast.lan; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:06:57 -0400 Received: from USPDCMAIL004P.reedsmith.com (10.180.2.4) by pdce1.reedsmith.com (10.180.221.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.4; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:06:56 -0400 Received: from USPDCMAIL002P.reedsmith.com ([fe80::78c8:1ed3:1b7a:8fd]) by USPDCMAIL004P.reedsmith.com ([fe80::80c5:ffee:4992:62eb%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.007; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:06:56 -0400 From: "Shatan, Gregory S." To: 'Michel Gauthier' , 'Jefsey' , "discuss@1net.org List" Thread-Topic: [discuss] What is MSism? Thread-Index: AQHPSNOXH5U+FGjmREW6QFFwYFCY+JrzLnPggAAnqgOAACtnUA== Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:06:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <01534.114032605130103203@us-mta-3.us.mimecast.lan> <37137.114032609041004905@us-mta-5.us.mimecast.lan> In-Reply-To: <37137.114032609041004905@us-mta-5.us.mimecast.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.180.2.100] x-exclaimer-md-config: 35a2a35a-5651-415b-b3fc-0e9c17e2e02e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MC-Unique: uhpwTfNNQpeTltCtSXK2Dg-5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF27222C20C8EUSPDCMAIL002Pre_" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/n03WSWCGxJbkZ6_Q8hottHx1tHk Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "ianatransition@icann.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:07:26 -0000 --_000_DBD9F335EA4A684FA2640EEE94EEF27222C20C8EUSPDCMAIL002Pre_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TWljaGVsOg0KDQpZb3UgYXJlIGluY29ycmVjdC4gIEkgcmVhZCBHZW9yZ2XigJlzIGVudGlyZSBl bWFpbCwgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyBib3RoIG9mIEplZnNleeKAmXMgZW1haWxzLiAgRm9sbG93aW5nIHRo YXQsIEkgcG9zdGVkIHRoZSBlbWFpbCB0byB3aGljaCB5b3UgcmVwbGllZC4NCg0KSSBzZWUgbm8g cmVhc29uIHRvIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IEdlb3JnZSB3aWxsIG5vdCDigJxhcHBseSBoaXMgb3duIHJ1 bGVzIHRvIGhpbXNlbGYu4oCdICBJIGJlbGlldmUgaGlzIHByaW9yIHBvc3RzIGFyZSBjb25zaXN0 ZW50IHdpdGggaGlzIOKAnHJ1bGVzLuKAnSAgSGUgaGFzIG5vdCBwb3N0ZWQgc2luY2UgdGhlIOKA nHJ1bGVz4oCdIHBvc3QuICBUaGVyZWZvcmUsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGlzIHRoZSDigJxJIHdpbGwgd2hl 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id A972C1A02DC; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:17:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kb_slylCVBPT; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-03-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3AE1A01D1; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [203.116.43.76] (helo=[172.30.1.185]) by mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WSrSS-000K7u-9o; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:17:44 +0000 X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 203.116.43.76 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX1/Oeq+H5v7iIa2R2E+7XHYI Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: John Curran X-Priority: 1 In-Reply-To: <20140326091244.818F921364D@smtp2.arin.net> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 01:17:33 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7F11B8A9-988A-4CC1-B6C9-C96D756E39B0@istaff.org> References: <20140326091244.818F921364D@smtp2.arin.net> To: Jefsey X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/ovfZhFRtXwKmw6RLyf_1GQQ8kQU Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "discuss@1net.org List" , ianatransition@icann.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:17:50 -0000 On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:11 PM, Jefsey wrote: > The first question should be "what is MSism". I have posted this = definition and its comparison with polycracy. I am surprised by the = resulting general agreement (no one opposed). I therefore copy it to = some other mailing lists, so we have a common working basis. JFC -=20 =20 Lack of response does not indicate "general agreement" nor "no one = opposed";=20 it simply indicates "lack of response". To refer to it otherwise is = disingenuous.=20 However, I do have some good news, in that I will respond to your = proposed =20 MS definition (i.e. "It is to polycracy the equivalent of monarchy to = democracy.=20 Technically, MS proceeds from a root/server/client hierarchic model") = and note that I believe it to be contrary to existing usage of the term and = otherwise without merit. (The good news being that now you _can_ summarize your = responses=20 received, the result being "overwhelmingly opposed"...) In keeping with the George's proposed etiquette or the 1net discuss = list, I shall make the observation that our views are quite divergent, likely = irreconcilable, and thus my constructive suggestion is that you find a mailing list = of those of similar beliefs, and refine your ideas in that forum (I've included = the cc's on this=20 reply to aid in that process, but ask that you refrain from cross = posting in the=20 future, and simply use one forum of like-minded folks to continue = your efforts.) Thanks! /John Disclaimer: My views alone (although I may be able to safely omit it = this time...) From nobody Wed Mar 26 11:36:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC4F1A0354 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54P1A1sC9RUs for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E2B1A0339 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=37640 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WSsgJ-0005g6-Ic; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:36:08 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:36:02 +0100 To: John Curran From: Jefsey In-Reply-To: <7F11B8A9-988A-4CC1-B6C9-C96D756E39B0@istaff.org> References: <20140326091244.818F921364D@smtp2.arin.net> <7F11B8A9-988A-4CC1-B6C9-C96D756E39B0@istaff.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/8WLA5Cm3fHGEVA9NlAFFP03QQxU Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "discuss@1net.org List" , ianatransition@icann.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:36:13 -0000 At 18:17 26/03/2014, John Curran wrote >JFC - > Lack of response does not indicate "general agreement" nor "no > one opposed"; > it simply indicates "lack of response". To refer to it > otherwise is disingenuous. Pretty obvious. But it obliges people to explain what they pretend to knowingly discuss. > However, I do have some good news, in that I will respond to > your proposed > MS definition (i.e. "It is to polycracy the equivalent of > monarchy to democracy. > Technically, MS proceeds from a root/server/client hierarchic > model") and note > that I believe it to be contrary to existing usage of the term > and otherwise without > merit. You can believe what you want as long as you document it. Every creed welcome: this is a HR. > (The good news being that now you _can_ summarize your responses > received, the result being "overwhelmingly opposed"...) Up to now this is (surprisingly) inexact. But I know, MSism would ceased to be a magic trick if it was investigated. Now, when a camailla invades an open public space it is not surprising that the real world majority is not welcome :-) May I remember you that we are discussing a matter where the world majority in Dubai has opposed your vision. Also that our minority has aggregated by loyalty around the now retiring NTIA, which has found a better strategy. One can therefore consider that the transfer to ICANN is its sacrifice to this new strategy. The USG has measured where was its best interest, and plays it very well. They let you drop. The problem is to know how one can reasonably reach a balanced transition. You do not help it in sticking to positions that the NTIA abandons to ICANN (with glorious words, I acknowledge it). You do not help in refusing (by despite? or unbelief of the change) that we reach out to you. > In keeping with the George's proposed etiquette or the 1net > discuss list, I shall > make the observation that our views are quite divergent, likely > irreconcilable, Correct, from your rigid point of view, at this time. Totally uncorrect from mine. You are part of a VGNIC structure. The largest one so far. But the time for VGNICs fair competition has come. Introducing competition does not means killing the incumbent. However it means for the incumbent not to block the new commers. Otherwise it will be sued (best) or opposed and will lose. I fully understand this is new to you, and it is difficult to accept (while it seems so unlikely) and adapt. You feel you are still the big one: this is true, but the NTIA has accepted that you are not the only one anymore. And the spirit of the law, and probably the jurisprudence, and the law once the Congress has understood the opportunity, is against your position. This deregulating datacommunications. Not my decision: the ITU vote for an increased regulation and the USG cute reponse. > and thus my constructive suggestion is that you find a mailing > list of those of > similar beliefs, and refine your ideas in that forum (I've > included the cc's on this > reply to aid in that process, but ask that you refrain from > cross posting in the > future, and simply use one forum of like-minded folks to > continue your efforts.) I thought you would be more MSist. The attempted trick is understandable, but is poor. We have an open mailing list established by the inculbent to convene a debate on MS-IG. We are two stakeholders. You for ARIN, depending on ICANN, me for VGNICs depending on IUsers. And all what you can tell me amount to say: "please I cannot resist, Dubai, Snowden, VGNs, the NTIA retirement, and now Marco Civil by our co-host, what next? Please leave me die in peace...". I will only do it by force for the whole world to see. We do not want you to die. We want you to behave as what you claim you are: a stakeholder. Not a monopoly component anymore, but a stand-alone stakeholder in our common enhanced cooperation. We just want you to adapt to the new reality of the legal rather than political US leadership strategy attempted by the NTIA. As loyal US allies, we are ready to help, but our priroities is to our nations, people and ourselves. If you do not want us, you will end irritating us! And we will be many, many more than you. With everyone his HomeRoot and SuperIANA. Cheers. jfc Cheers ! jfc From nobody Wed Mar 26 12:14:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25B81A039A; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:13:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xkAT-A8HbzBy; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org (mho-03-ewr.mailhop.org [204.13.248.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262481A0364; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [203.116.43.76] (helo=[172.30.1.185]) by mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WStGu-000DLl-7Q; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:13:56 +0000 X-Mail-Handler: Dyn Standard SMTP by Dyn X-Originating-IP: 203.116.43.76 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.dyndns.com/services/sendlabs/outbound_abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: U2FsdGVkX18tSwMjE7NfnuE8hpIixsLH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: <20140326183653.DEFE721365F@smtp2.arin.net> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 03:13:44 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <170128E5-F66A-4AC1-A2D7-FB759B5BB040@istaff.org> References: <20140326091244.818F921364D@smtp2.arin.net> <7F11B8A9-988A-4CC1-B6C9-C96D756E39B0@istaff.org> <20140326183653.DEFE721365F@smtp2.arin.net> To: Jefsey X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/ulXkZTXpOwN7YMNK2v4sMBNpubA Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "discuss@1net.org List" , ianatransition@icann.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:14:00 -0000 On Mar 27, 2014, at 2:36 AM, Jefsey wrote: > Totally uncorrect from mine. You are part of a VGNIC structure. The = largest one so far. But the time for VGNICs fair competition has come. = ... JFC -=20 I actually acknowledged your interesting multiple VGNIC perspective long ago (see 1net discuss email from me earlier on the 1st and 2nd of this month), so you can stop proselytizing. The difference in viewpoint is that I also recognize that the folks in the "ICANN VGNIC" (using your terminology) have the right to use the 1net list for discussion of problems that they see in governance of this particular VGNIC, using the terminology and definitions that=20= they see most appropriate. You acknowledged this right of VGNIC self- organization and determination, but then repeatedly have attempted to insert terminology which has not been accepted by those participating=20= in this discussion. I fully acknowledge you have the right to your beliefs and framework,=20= but your continued interference to those who which to discuss Internet=20= governance within this particular Internet scope (using the = terminology of their own choice) is both disruptive and inconsistent with the=20 claimed VGNIC framework you repeated try to foist on this community... As such, I was just letting your know that I see no need to respond further, and was suggesting that you might find a mailing list that=20 contains folks with beliefs similar to yours to be helpful in working out some of these kinks in your VGNIC framework. Thanks! /John Disclaimer: My views alone. From nobody Wed Mar 26 15:25:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4641A03E6 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dBgMKtBmLNED for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD071A03DC for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 229.77.14.81.rev.sfr.net ([81.14.77.229]:56490 helo=GHM-SAM.dot.dj) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WSwGK-0001fh-DR; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:25:32 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:24:03 +0100 To: John Curran From: Michel Gauthier In-Reply-To: <170128E5-F66A-4AC1-A2D7-FB759B5BB040@istaff.org> References: <20140326091244.818F921364D@smtp2.arin.net> <7F11B8A9-988A-4CC1-B6C9-C96D756E39B0@istaff.org> <20140326183653.DEFE721365F@smtp2.arin.net> <170128E5-F66A-4AC1-A2D7-FB759B5BB040@istaff.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - telepresse.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: intl+dot.dj/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/OB5bb1eFxL4y7XpIN8ufqVO_yaI Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "discuss@1net.org List" , ianatransition@icann.org, iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:25:36 -0000 At 20:13 26/03/2014, John Curran wrote: > I actually acknowledged your interesting multiple VGNIC perspective > long ago (see 1net discuss email from me earlier on the 1st and 2nd > of this month), so you can stop proselytizing. John, I have some difficulty understanding you. You and I agree with a technical analysis that seems clear and obvious. There is not other way to name it. But you call proselitism using it? This could be understandable if there was a single known case. But there are many other "VGN" occurrences. How do to call them all? M G From nobody Wed Mar 26 17:31:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A10F1A0256 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:31:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WCHGbb9RJvM3 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F651A040E for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 229.77.14.81.rev.sfr.net ([81.14.77.229]:57719 helo=GHM-SAM.dot.dj) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WSyEF-00033u-Sk; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:31:32 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 01:30:02 +0100 To: "Shatan, Gregory S." , From: Michel Gauthier In-Reply-To: References: <01534.114032605130103203@us-mta-3.us.mimecast.lan> <37137.114032609041004905@us-mta-5.us.mimecast.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - telepresse.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: intl+dot.dj/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/PX_mRNWKY4iXEtpxR-4VMh0bsOc Cc: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "ianatransition@icann.org" , "iucg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [iucg] [discuss] What is MSism? X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 00:31:40 -0000 Dear Greg, Jorge wants us to use plain language. I think it is sometimes simpler than trying to diplomatically to make things understood. There are two main types of mailing lists: the ones whith "contributors", and the one with also "interlocutors" using the lists buzz to "discuss without openly discussing". If you do not consider yourself as an interlocutor negociating something, you are for them interesting contributor who is being used as a cover. You know better. Not my cup of tea. I LOVE these later lists. Because the best interest of the interlcutors is to tell the truth in a way that irritates the contributors, and hence augments the buzz, is unnoticed and can be quoted further on ("I told you and you did not consider: your responsibility"). Some are mail-combat to warn adversaries, mark territories or even provoke results. Others are negociations. Like this one, I feel. Pre-Sao Paulo. This feeling of mine (from the mood - not from the content which is quite complex) is that for now most of the fundamental information has been exchanged and confirmed. Some details remain to be clarified. Orientations are settled. Future ICANN mailing lists, working groups, debates, meetings, contributions, etc. will only be for brainwashing. The outcome will emerge from what is now established (dont ask me: I am an analyst, not a guru) and from pratical development in the months to come. I would says there is probably a good mutual understanding among "strategists", and common misunderstandings of the usefull "believers". This is usually the case, except that in this case there as a long term indoctrination to consider concerning a large number of States and Stakeholders; and an extremely tight and precise calendar for two years - since Dubai preparation. Anyway, now has come the time of the writers of the official statements and presentation speakers. They may help understanding what has been settled, or prepare the next step. Probably not before end of 2015, unless there are planned last minute or out of sequence shoots. M G At 17:06 26/03/2014, Shatan, Gregory S. wrote: >Michel: > >You are incorrect. I read George’s entire email, as well as both >of Jefsey’s emails. Following that, I posted the email to which you replied. > >I see no reason to assume that George will not “apply his own >rules to himself.” I believe his prior posts are consistent with >his “rules.” He has not posted since the “rules” >post. Therefore, not only is the “I will when you will” >position unproductive, it has no factual basis. In any event, these >are not “George’s rules”; a number of participants in the list >have already indicated their appreciation for and agreement to abide >by these rules of “Netiquette.” > >As to your comment that I “do not know how to comment [on] >JFC[‘s] definitions”; I find that, in George’s words, >“disdainful and impolite.” I may or may not respond or >otherwise discuss the issue of what multistakeholderism >is. If don’t, it is not because I lack the ability or talents to >do so. If I felt it was the best use of my limited time, I would >respond. If not, it is because I find other things here more >pressing, relevant or fruitful. > >Greg Shatan From nobody Thu Mar 27 18:44:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iucg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E001A07BD for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.631 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MISSING_MID=0.497] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnM3JeGulblO for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27401A0281 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [85.159.233.116] (port=58773 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WTLq0-0000xw-67; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:44:04 -0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 02:43:56 +0100 To: "Joel M. Halpern" , John Curran ,Russ Housley , Brian E Carpenter , Jari Arkko From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: <533332EA.90906@joelhalpern.com> References: <20140326091244.818F921364D@smtp2.arin.net> <7F11B8A9-988A-4CC1-B6C9-C96D756E39B0@istaff.org> <20140326183613.80DE21A0364@ietfa.amsl.com> <533332EA.90906@joelhalpern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iucg/X9tQ_23KHohUvGWNLDF82gSaHYA Cc: iucg@ietf.org Subject: [iucg] What is the MSism's impact on IETF X-BeenThere: iucg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet users contributing group List-Id: internet users contributing group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:44:10 -0000 At 21:04 26/03/2014, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >This does not appear to be a topic matching the charter of the >Internetgovtech list. Pleas stop copying the internetgovtech list >with this discussion. Joel, Sorry, I kept responding with the same distribution as I received. However, there is a key issue for the IETF in this, I have to sort with ICANN and Govs. I wish to get a guidance from the IAB on its position. It is following: 1. let assume that ICANN fails to meey the NTIA expectation or that the world actually sticks to the Dubai vote. I feel the IETF context would be divided and some constraints on the technology, even in the end to end layers, might occur. How to prepare the IETF to such a situation? Probably not in pursuing my appeal to ISOC (I delay and delay IRT RFC 6852), but how to addres its targret: the lack of general appeal process, a matter the EU has now endorsed (I warned you of the possibility). 2. MSism as I analyse it, as well as others (ex. Michael Gurstein http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/the-multistakeholder-model-neo-liberalism-and-global-internet-governance/) does not fully contradict the IETF RFC 3935 which acknowledges the need of "leaders" for IETF on occasions, but institutionalizes multi-leaders statements (OpenStand, Montevideo, support to the NTIA) that by-pass the IETF participants consensus and cannot be appealed (as my RFC 6852 appeals shown it). I include Brian in this threat because he objected to a Technical Governance on the discuss list with arguments I partly agree or strongly disagree with, and because he is British. So, he is able to evaluate in his own way the EU position, with his architectural judgment I respect. I must add that as French/European citizen, I do not share the US citizens' tendancy to object to their own Governement involvement. I understand but object the NTIA's desire that governement are not involved in the IG. My rationale is simple: - objecting to a democratic representation cannot be democratic, so there is a conceptual unballance with IETF values. - we need the assistance of our government if we have to collectively sue an US based organization. - code is law (what is clearly observed in reality). This has a corollary: law influences the code. NTIA transfers the US internet influence from political to legal areas. I think it is initially a good move for the US; but it calls for an update of the 1996 Telecommunication Act far more important that the 2004 attempt. This lies with the Congress. I do not trust the Congress to provide quickly a clarification between plug, edge, end and fringe. For 40 years they only know basic vs. enhanced. When I started discussing ONES (Open Edge Network Systems/services) at the WG/OPES, I was not followed ny then because it was not in the Charter. Now it is the core of my preoccupation as an IUser (informed user) because I want to protect the fringe to fringe user side from any legal border creep from Edge Providers, Broadband Operators, etc. in US jargon. I want a network neutrality which will insure a multi access network transparency to multihoming ISP rotation. My lone-no-money strategy is to use the VGN concept (my PC + shared global catenet capabilities under TCP/IP + the extended technologies solutions I need) now it has been freed by Snowden. It is/will be based on the HomeRoot/SuperIANA experimentations within the ICANN-ICP-3 framework. The SuperIANA targets the documentation of the VGN Masters when they build their own VGNICs about their end to end internet, possible edge additions and their fringe to fringe layer six extended services technologies. Stability should proceed from a strict respect of the IANA inputs into the SuperIANA in an IUser oriented terminology, presentation, etc. This will be most probably maintained as a peers' wiki. But we will need help/cooperation if to be sure we can stay immune from Google, Putin, CNNIC, i-DNS, etc. and different technologies: you are allied with W3C, more or less with ITU, but what about ONS/GS1, Namecoin, CCNX, etc.? In addition there always is the problem of Unicode and of the linguistic tables. The HomeRoot and SuperIANA project will proceed. VGN will be documented and increasingly deployed, experimentaly as far as I suggest them to proceed. But they will probably politically/FLOSS develop beyong my moderation. Our need is for a unified namespace and numbering plan that is as much as possioble compatible with the Internet practice, so VGNs may deploy seamlessly, as simple "master and masters" additions to the client/server current use. This will take time as the IUCG experience shows it, but no one knows how fast an innovative proposition may develop. Up to you; stakeholder leaders. jfc