From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 5 21:14:57 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24342 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h561EVd28206 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:14:31 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h561EUB28203 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:14:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24309 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O5mU-00058C-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:12:34 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O5mU-000588-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:12:34 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h561E8B28178; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:14:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h561DIB28152 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:13:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24272 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O5lK-00057U-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:11:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O5lJ-00057Q-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:11:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19O5n8-0002xr-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 01:13:14 +0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:12:57 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1171117877923.20030605181257@psg.com> To: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Draft charter for L2VPN - IPLS & ARP Mediation In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks- OK, not much additional support on the list, but my overall impression based on what we saw here previously and my off-line conversations is that we should put these two topics in the charter (with the caveat that IP-only interworking will be addressed after the basic mechanisms) and shut the door for now. Stay tuned, I'll be sending the updated charter tonight. Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 5 21:31:48 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24572 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h561VLW28642 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:31:21 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h561VLB28639 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:31:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24562 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O62n-0005BU-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:29:25 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O62m-0005BR-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:29:24 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h561V3B28626; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:31:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h561UiB28582 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:30:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24533 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O62B-0005BI-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:28:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19O62B-0005BF-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:28:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19O63z-0003lx-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 01:30:39 +0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:30:22 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <281118922835.20030605183022@psg.com> To: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Updated L2VPN WG charter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks- Below is the updated charter for your review. The diff can be found at: http://psg.com/~zinin/ietf/ppvpn/l2vpn-diff-00-01.html The milestones are rather sketchy and may need some more adjustment. -- Alex Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) Chairs: Area Director(s): Thomas Narten Erik Nordmark Area Advisor: Thomas Narten Technical Advisor: Alex Zinin Description of Working Group: This working group is responsible for defining and specifying a limited number of solutions for supporting provider-provisioned layer-2 virtual private networks (L2VPNs). The WG is responsible for standardization of the following solutions: 1. Virtual Private LAN Service--L2 service that emulates LAN across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard Ethernet devices communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment. 2. Virtual Private Wire Service--L2 service that provides L2 point-to-point connectivity (e.g. Frame Relay DLCI, ATM VPI/VCI, point-to-point Ethernet) across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network. 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- to-point circuit. The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated charter when the current one is completed.) As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. The group will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. As a specific example, this WG will not define new encapsulation mechanism, but will use those defined in the PWE3 WG. The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items will require rechartering. 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and topology of required connectivity 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate document) 4. MIBs 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM solutions for VPLS and VPWS. 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are defined. Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1 Milestones (optimistic): JUL 2003 Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC JUL 2003 Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as Informational RFC JUL 2003 Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPLS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPWS DEC 2003 Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG DEC 2003 Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG JAN 2004 Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPLS to IESG MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPWS to IESG From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 10:19:54 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25679 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56EJTb27436 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:19:29 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56EJTB27433 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:19:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25663 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OI26-0002Uc-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:17:30 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OI26-0002UZ-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:17:30 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56EJ7B27402; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:19:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56EILB27356 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:18:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25614 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OI10-0002U4-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:16:22 -0400 Received: from kanfw1.ottawa.alcatel.ca ([192.75.23.69] helo=kanmx1.ca.alcatel.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OI0z-0002U1-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:16:21 -0400 Received: (qmail 5156 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2003 14:27:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camail03.ca.alcatel.com) (138.120.105.217) by kanmx1.ca.alcatel.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2003 14:27:53 -0000 Received: from alcatel.com ([138.120.250.31]) by camail03.ca.alcatel.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HG2D2E00.OBJ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:18:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3EE0A294.E6E43838@alcatel.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:17:56 -0400 From: "Cheng-Yin Lee" Reply-To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zinin CC: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Draft charter for L2VPN - IPLS & ARP Mediation References: <1171117877923.20030605181257@psg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, Similar to emulated LAN service (that you have defined in the L2VPN charter), I think it would be useful to define the service (the problem being solved) being specified here instead of stating the solution (IPLS). Thanks Cheng-Yin Alex Zinin wrote: > > Folks- > > OK, not much additional support on the list, but my overall > impression based on what we saw here previously and my off-line > conversations is that we should put these two topics in the charter > (with the caveat that IP-only interworking will be addressed after > the basic mechanisms) and shut the door for now. > > Stay tuned, I'll be sending the updated charter tonight. > > Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 11:37:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28802 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56FaWO01497 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:36:32 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56FaWB01494 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:36:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28798 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJEj-0003Bj-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:34:37 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJEi-0003Bg-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:34:36 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56Fa7B01472; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:36:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56FZAB01431 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:35:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28771 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJDO-0003BE-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:33:14 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJDO-0003BA-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:33:14 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h56FYTl29831; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:34:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:34:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32C41.1E3C19DC" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C41.1E3C19DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, [clipped]... > > 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters > I think it should be: "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns" or along these lines... Signaling of pseudo-wire is already covered in PWE3 (for PW setup and maintenance)... Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C41.1E3C19DC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex,

[clipped]...

>
> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters
>
 
I think it should be:
 
"2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns"
 
or along these lines...
 
Signaling of pseudo-wire is already covered in PWE3
(for PW setup and maintenance)...
 
Hamid.
 

 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C41.1E3C19DC-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 12:00:05 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29820 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56Fxct03763 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:59:38 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56FxcB03760 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:59:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29774 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJb4-0003Rf-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:57:43 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJb4-0003Rc-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:57:42 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56FxAB03725; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:59:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56FwjB03666 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:58:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29725 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJaD-0003Qk-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:56:49 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OJaD-0003Q7-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 11:56:49 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h56Fw9829805; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:58:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:58:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32C44.6D246B8C" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C44.6D246B8C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Noticed that in the l2vpn charter: > JAN 2004 Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG Needs to be taken out (must be copy and paste problem). Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C44.6D246B8C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Noticed that in the l2vpn charter:

> JAN 2004  Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG

Needs to be taken out (must be copy and paste
problem).

Hamid.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C44.6D246B8C-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 13:21:12 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03176 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56HKlo11613 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:20:47 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HKlB11610 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:20:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03171 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKrZ-0004Mh-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:18:49 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKrY-0004MZ-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:18:48 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HK7B11568; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:20:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HJSB11515 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:19:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03135 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKqI-0004Ls-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:17:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKqH-0004Lp-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:17:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19OKs1-0004F0-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:19:17 +0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:19:01 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1181175842071.20030606101901@psg.com> To: "Cheng-Yin Lee" CC: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Draft charter for L2VPN - IPLS & ARP Mediation In-Reply-To: <3EE0A294.E6E43838@alcatel.com> References: <1171117877923.20030605181257@psg.com> <3EE0A294.E6E43838@alcatel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cheng-Yin, This is what I tried to do. From the updated charter: > 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled > IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each > other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- > to-point circuit. ... > 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using > dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only > after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are > defined. -- Alex http://www.psg.com/~zinin/ Friday, June 6, 2003, 7:17:56 AM, Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: > Alex, > Similar to emulated LAN service (that you have defined in the L2VPN > charter), I think it would be useful to define the service (the problem > being solved) being specified here instead of stating the solution > (IPLS). > Thanks > Cheng-Yin > Alex Zinin wrote: >> >> Folks- >> >> OK, not much additional support on the list, but my overall >> impression based on what we saw here previously and my off-line >> conversations is that we should put these two topics in the charter >> (with the caveat that IP-only interworking will be addressed after >> the basic mechanisms) and shut the door for now. >> >> Stay tuned, I'll be sending the updated charter tonight. >> >> Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 13:27:25 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03346 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56HR0K11985 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:27:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HR0B11982 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:27:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03331 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKxY-0004PK-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:25:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKxY-0004PH-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:25:00 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HQBB11920; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:26:11 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HOMB11798 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:24:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03288 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKv0-0004Oi-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:22:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OKuz-0004OV-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:22:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19OKwh-0004VK-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:24:07 +0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 10:23:51 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <951176132418.20030606102351@psg.com> To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" CC: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, >> JAN 2004 Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG > Needs to be taken out (must be copy and paste > problem). That should map to IP-only L2VPNs. Let's make it JAN 2004 Submit IP-only L2VPN solution documents to IESG Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 13:50:16 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04449 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56Hnos14443 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:49:50 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HnoB14440 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:49:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04417 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLJe-0004i9-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:47:50 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLJd-0004i6-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:47:49 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56Hn3B14327; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:49:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56Hm3B14187 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:48:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04325 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLHu-0004gX-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:46:02 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLHs-0004fv-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:46:00 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h56HlKl08364; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:47:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:47:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.ADB8B27A" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.ADB8B27A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, Could you clarify the "MPLS-enabled IP network" expression used in the charter in different places? Why not just mention MPLS network (which implies IP anyway)? (I am not aware of existence of MPLS-enabled non-IP network). Something in mind? Hamid. > > 1. Virtual Private LAN Service--L2 service that emulates LAN > across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard > Ethernet devices communicate with each other as if they were > connected to a common LAN segment. > > 2. Virtual Private Wire Service--L2 service that provides L2 > point-to-point connectivity (e.g. Frame Relay DLCI, ATM VPI/VCI, > point-to-point Ethernet) across an IP and an MPLS-enabled > IP network. > > 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled > IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each > other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- > to-point circuit. > > The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other > scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated > charter when > the current one is completed.) > > As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will > provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing > protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. > The group will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before > they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. > As a specific example, this WG will not define new encapsulation > mechanism, but will use those defined in the PWE3 WG. > > The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items > will require rechartering. > > 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and > topology of required connectivity > > 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters > > 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific > solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, > and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate > document) > > 4. MIBs > > 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM > solutions for VPLS and VPWS. > > 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using > dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only > after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are > defined. > > Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1 > > Milestones (optimistic): > > JUL 2003 Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as > Informational RFC > JUL 2003 Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as > Informational RFC > JUL 2003 Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPLS > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPWS > DEC 2003 Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG > DEC 2003 Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG > JAN 2004 Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG > FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG > FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG > MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPLS to IESG > MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPWS to IESG > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.ADB8B27A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Alex,

Could you clarify the "MPLS-enabled IP network" expression
used in the charter in different places? Why not just mention
MPLS network (which implies IP anyway)? (I am not aware of
existence of MPLS-enabled non-IP network). Something in mind?

Hamid.

>
> 1. Virtual Private LAN Service--L2 service that emulates LAN
>    across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard
>    Ethernet devices communicate with each other as if they were
>    connected to a common LAN segment.
> 
> 2. Virtual Private Wire Service--L2 service that provides L2
>    point-to-point connectivity (e.g. Frame Relay DLCI, ATM VPI/VCI,
>    point-to-point Ethernet) across an IP and an MPLS-enabled
> IP network.
>
> 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled
>    IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each
>    other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point-
>    to-point circuit.
>
> The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other
> scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated
> charter when
> the current one is completed.)
>   
> As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will
> provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing
> protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs.
> The group will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before
> they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs.
> As a specific example, this WG will not define new encapsulation
> mechanism, but will use those defined in the PWE3 WG.
>
> The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items
> will require rechartering.
>
> 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and
>    topology of required connectivity
>
> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters
>
> 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific
>    solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling,
>    and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate
>    document)
>
> 4. MIBs
>   
> 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM
>    solutions for VPLS and VPWS.
>
> 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using
>    dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only
>    after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are
>    defined.
>
> Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1
>   
> Milestones (optimistic):
>
> JUL 2003  Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as
> Informational RFC
> JUL 2003  Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as
> Informational RFC
> JUL 2003  Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG
> AUG 2003  Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS
> AUG 2003  Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS
> AUG 2003  Submit an I-D on OAM for VPLS
> AUG 2003  Submit an I-D on OAM for VPWS
> DEC 2003  Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG
> DEC 2003  Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG
> JAN 2004  Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG
> FEB 2004  Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG
> FEB 2004  Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG
> MAR 2004  Submit OAM for VPLS to IESG
> MAR 2004  Submit OAM for VPWS to IESG
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.ADB8B27A-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 13:51:07 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04485 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56Hof314572 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:50:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56HodB14568 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:50:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04477 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:50:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLKR-0004ib-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:48:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLKQ-0004iY-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:48:38 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56Ho0B14497; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:50:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56Hn3B14343 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:49:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04374 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLIt-0004hY-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:47:03 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLIr-0004gn-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:47:02 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h56HmMl08479; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:48:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:48:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.D241DBA8" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.D241DBA8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hamid, > > >> JAN 2004 Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG > > > Needs to be taken out (must be copy and paste > > problem). > > That should map to IP-only L2VPNs. Let's make it > > JAN 2004 Submit IP-only L2VPN solution documents to IESG > Okay. Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.D241DBA8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

>
> Hamid,
>
> >> JAN 2004  Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG
>
> > Needs to be taken out (must be copy and paste
> > problem).
>
> That should map to IP-only L2VPNs. Let's make it
>
> JAN 2004  Submit IP-only L2VPN solution documents to IESG
>

Okay.

Hamid.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C53.D241DBA8-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 14:07:16 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05257 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56I6pl15638 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:06:51 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56I6nB15635 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:06:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05212 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLa4-0004xp-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:04:48 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLa4-0004xi-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:04:48 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56I69B15597; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:06:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56I5ZB15549 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:05:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05117 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLYs-0004vp-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:03:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLYr-0004vi-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:03:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19OLab-000755-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:05:21 +0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:05:05 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1181178605935.20030606110505@psg.com> To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" CC: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, > Could you clarify the "MPLS-enabled IP network" expression > used in the charter in different places? Why not just mention > MPLS network (which implies IP anyway)? (I am not aware of > existence of MPLS-enabled non-IP network). Something in mind? "MPLS-enable IP network" is intended to mean "an IP network that supports MPLS functionality". The main idea behind "across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network" is to say that the services should be able to work across pure-IP as well as MPLS/IP networks. Do you have some concerns? Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 14:14:20 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05624 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56IDtR16946 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:13:55 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IDsB16943 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:13:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05606 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLgw-00053a-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:11:54 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLgv-00053X-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:11:53 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56ID8B16862; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:13:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IBMB16718 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:11:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05439 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLeT-00051S-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:09:21 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLeR-00050v-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:09:20 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h56IAdl25410; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:10:39 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:10:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32C56.EF4FA16E" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C56.EF4FA16E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, > > > Could you clarify the "MPLS-enabled IP network" expression > > used in the charter in different places? Why not just mention > > MPLS network (which implies IP anyway)? (I am not aware of > > existence of MPLS-enabled non-IP network). Something in mind? > > "MPLS-enable IP network" is intended to mean "an IP network that > supports MPLS functionality". > > The main idea behind "across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network" is > to say that the services should be able to work across pure-IP as well > as MPLS/IP networks. > Okay. Maybe to be more accurate the charter should mention "Non-MPLS enabled IP network" (for pure IP) and MPLS-enabled IP network (which includes MPLS, and IP)... (I won't insist on that though...) > Do you have some concerns? > No. It was just a clarification. Thanks. Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C56.EF4FA16E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex,

>
> > Could you clarify the "MPLS-enabled IP network" expression
> > used in the charter in different places? Why not just mention
> > MPLS network (which implies IP anyway)? (I am not aware of
> > existence of MPLS-enabled non-IP network). Something in mind?
>
> "MPLS-enable IP network" is intended to mean "an IP network that
> supports MPLS functionality".
>
> The main idea behind "across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network" is
> to say that the services should be able to work across pure-IP as well
> as MPLS/IP networks.
>

Okay. Maybe to be more accurate the charter should mention
"Non-MPLS enabled IP network" (for pure IP) and
MPLS-enabled IP network (which includes MPLS, and IP)...
(I won't insist on that though...)

> Do you have some concerns?
>
 
No. It was just a clarification. Thanks.
 
Hamid.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C56.EF4FA16E-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 14:15:05 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05656 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56IEeV17023 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:14:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IEdB17020 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:14:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05644 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLhf-00054B-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:12:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLhe-000548-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:12:38 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IE0B16986; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:14:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56ID3B16852 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:13:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05555 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLg5-00052q-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:11:02 -0400 Received: from [64.47.48.7] (helo=exchange.timetra.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLg4-00052U-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:11:01 -0400 Received: from vkompella ([64.47.48.10] RDNS failed) by exchange.timetra.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:12:21 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Vach Kompella" To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" , "Alex Zinin" , Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:12:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2003 18:12:21.0851 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C990AB0:01C32C57] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, >> >> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters >> > I think it should be: > > "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns" > or along these lines... Agree. Without actually specifying a particular solution, it may be that the signaling for l2vpns rides over the same signaling used for setting up the PWs, and in that sense, qualifies the PW signaling. That would tie in well with using PWs as defined by PWE3. -Vach From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 14:17:06 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05748 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56IGfT17143 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:16:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IGfB17140 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:16:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05744 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLjc-00055Q-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:14:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLjb-00055N-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:14:39 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IG1B17102; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:16:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IFcB17077 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:15:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05699 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLib-00054k-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:13:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLia-00054c-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:13:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19OLkL-0007dq-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:15:25 +0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:15:08 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <951179209353.20030606111508@psg.com> To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" CC: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, > Okay. Maybe to be more accurate the charter should mention > "Non-MPLS enabled IP network" (for pure IP) and > MPLS-enabled IP network (which includes MPLS, and IP)... > (I won't insist on that though...) It seems that the current text reflects the idea, and I'd rather limit the changes, as the text we started with was reviewed within the IESG. So, I guess I'll take you up on "I won't insist" ;) Thanks Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 14:28:16 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06245 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56IRp217744 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:27:51 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IRpB17741 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:27:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06210 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLuQ-0005CD-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:25:50 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLuP-0005CA-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:25:49 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IR9B17716; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:27:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56IQwB17695 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:26:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06182 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLtZ-0005Bz-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:24:57 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OLtX-0005Bl-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:24:56 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h56IQA823383; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:26:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: vkompella@timetra.com, Alex Zinin , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:26:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32C59.1A827B7A" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C59.1A827B7A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Vach, > > >> > >> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters > >> > > > I think it should be: > > > > "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns" > > or along these lines... > > Agree. Without actually specifying a particular solution, it > may be that the > signaling for l2vpns rides over the same signaling used for > setting up the PWs, > and in that sense, qualifies the PW signaling. That would > tie in well with > using PWs as defined by PWE3. > Agreed. Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C59.1A827B7A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Vach,

>
> >>
> >> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters
> >>
>
> > I think it should be:
> >
> > "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns"
> > or along these lines...
>
> Agree.  Without actually specifying a particular solution, it
> may be that the
> signaling for l2vpns rides over the same signaling used for
> setting up the PWs,
> and in that sense, qualifies the PW signaling.  That would
> tie in well with
> using PWs as defined by PWE3.
>

Agreed.

Hamid.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C59.1A827B7A-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 6 17:19:01 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13617 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56LIZo31606 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:18:35 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56LIZB31603 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:18:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13576 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OOZg-0006fj-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:16:37 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OOZg-0006fe-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:16:36 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56LI9B31562; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:18:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h56LH7B31513 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:17:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13414 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OOYH-0006eE-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:15:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19OOYG-0006e9-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:15:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19OOZn-000JoW-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:16:43 +0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:16:18 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1231190078772.20030606141618@psg.com> To: "Vach Kompella" CC: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"? Alex Friday, June 6, 2003, 11:12:55 AM, Vach Kompella wrote: > Hamid, >>> >>> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters >>> >> I think it should be: >> >> "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns" >> or along these lines... > Agree. Without actually specifying a particular solution, it may be that the > signaling for l2vpns rides over the same signaling used for setting up the PWs, > and in that sense, qualifies the PW signaling. That would tie in well with > using PWs as defined by PWE3. > -Vach From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 7 15:02:06 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18567 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h57J1gx20113 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:01:42 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h57J1fB20110 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:01:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18556 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Oiuh-0005Fy-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:59:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Oiug-0005Fu-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:59:38 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h57J1DB20102; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:01:13 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h57J0vB20061 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:00:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18540 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:00:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Oitz-0005Fo-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:58:55 -0400 Received: from mailf.telia.com ([194.22.194.25]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Oity-0005Fe-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:58:54 -0400 Received: from d1o888.telia.com (d1o888.telia.com [213.67.172.241]) by mailf.telia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h57J0jCg029714; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 21:00:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Original-Recipient: l2vpn@ietf.org Received: from pi.se (h45n1fls31o888.telia.com [213.67.172.45]) by d1o888.telia.com (8.10.2p2/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h57J0hc22094; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 21:00:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EE2354E.2000309@pi.se> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 20:56:14 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020605 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l2vpn CC: Alex Zinin , Thomas Narten Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mailf.telia.com id h57J0jCg029714 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h57J0wB20062 Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by www1.ietf.org id h57J1DB20102 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h57J1fB20110 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit L2VPNers, I've put a few questions into the updated version of the l2vpn charter, background is some wg chair experiences, so it is at this point rather formalistic issues. The kind of stuff a wg chair will ask him- or herself when approached by people wanting to do (not to do) certain things at a specific point in time. Note: at this time I'm still playing catch up and is not through all my mail and haven read this thread to the end, Soit is possible that I'm knocking in open doors. In that case just ignore. /Loa ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) Chairs: Area Director(s): Thomas Narten Erik Nordmark Area Advisor: Thomas Narten Technical Advisor: Alex Zinin Description of Working Group: This working group is responsible for defining and specifying a limited number of solutions Qustion: What is a limited number of solutions? Understanding that it is not possible to give an exact number, there is nevertehless a need to understand what the limitations are. A 100 is still liomited, but so is 1 or 2. for supporting provider-provisioned layer-2 virtual private networks (L2VPNs). The WG is responsible for standardization of the following solutions: 1. Virtual Private LAN Service--L2 service that emulates LAN across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard Ethernet devices communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment. Question: Since there are no MPLS enabled networks that are not IP networks (control by an IP routing protocól), it is an open issue how to read this. Should it be read as: a. one solution for IP networks b. another for MPLS enabled networks c. or a common solutions that works in both MPLS enabled networks and in IP networks that is not MPLS enabled 2. Virtual Private Wire Service--L2 service that provides L2 point-to-point connectivity (e.g. Frame Relay DLCI, ATM VPI/VCI, point-to-point Ethernet) across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network. Question: Same as for item 1. 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- to-point circuit. The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated charter when the current one is completed.) Question: "Completed" is fuzzy, when is something completed - wg last call done, - sent to the iesg for review - iesg decision - published as RFC. It is likely that the point in time is when the previous task is "90% done" is when something could be viewed as completed from a wg point of view. One would need more freedom, and the IETF process is probably good enough "after the wg have requested a charter update from the iesg and have had that request approved". As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. The group will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. Question: Can't make head an tail of this. If the wg produces "requirements" to be sent to a protocol specific wg, once this is done the work will be done within that wg. No? If not is the process that we produce "requirements" that will be "discussed in the protocol specific wg" and once approved by wg and the iesg, the l2vpn wg will develop the extensions that will go through the same process. Could become a bit cumbersome. If we are not doing the extension, how do we make sure that we have the attention on the other working group. As a specific example, this WG will not define new encapsulation mechanism, but will use those defined in the PWE3 WG. The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items will require rechartering: rechartering. Question: This is possibly too restrictive, we might see that there are work items that are "within charter" and we would like to undertake those task, but it wouldn't require a new charter. 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and topology of required connectivity 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate document) 4. MIBs 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM solutions for VPLS and VPWS. Question: OAM for IP only L2VPNs? 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are defined. Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1 Question: Wouldn't it be appropriate to look into re-using mechanisms that are (have been) developed by the l3vpn wg? And the other way around? Or is this within the IETF mode of working, and need not to be explicitly stated? Milestones (optimistic): JUL 2003 Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC JUL 2003 Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as Informational RFC JUL 2003 Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPLS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPWS DEC 2003 Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG DEC 2003 Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG JAN 2004 Submit IP VPN solution documents to IESG FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPLS to IESG MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPWS to IESG -- /Loa mobile + 46 739 81 21 64 email: loa@pi.se From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 9 11:12:42 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08234 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h59FCEI09366 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:12:14 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59FCEB09359 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:12:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08215 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19POHk-0004C5-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:10:12 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19POHj-0004Bt-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:10:11 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59FBeB09254; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:11:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59F8TB09089 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:08:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08061 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19POE2-00048e-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:06:22 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19POE1-00048K-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:06:21 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h59F7en11912; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:07:41 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin , Vach Kompella Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:07:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32E98.DEB8B23E" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32E98.DEB8B23E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, > > OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"? Okay. But I am afraid the term "parameters" will be interpreted as the stuff that goes after the signaling info used for the purpose of connectivity (stuff like optional parameters, etc)... Hamid. > Alex > > Friday, June 6, 2003, 11:12:55 AM, Vach Kompella wrote: > > Hamid, > > >>> > >>> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters > >>> > > >> I think it should be: > >> > >> "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns" > >> or along these lines... > > > Agree. Without actually specifying a particular solution, > it may be that the > > signaling for l2vpns rides over the same signaling used for > setting up the PWs, > > and in that sense, qualifies the PW signaling. That would > tie in well with > > using PWs as defined by PWE3. > > > -Vach > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32E98.DEB8B23E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex,

>
> OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"?

 
Okay. But I am afraid the term "parameters" will be
interpreted as the stuff that goes after the signaling
info used for the purpose of connectivity (stuff like
optional parameters, etc)...
 
Hamid.
 


> Alex
>
> Friday, June 6, 2003, 11:12:55 AM, Vach Kompella wrote:
> > Hamid,
>
> >>>
> >>> 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters
> >>>
>
> >> I think it should be:
> >>
> >> "2. Signaling for the purpose of establishing l2vpns"
> >> or along these lines...
>
> > Agree.  Without actually specifying a particular solution,
> it may be that the
> > signaling for l2vpns rides over the same signaling used for
> setting up the PWs,
> > and in that sense, qualifies the PW signaling.  That would
> tie in well with
> > using PWs as defined by PWE3.
>
> > -Vach
>
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C32E98.DEB8B23E-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 9 16:01:55 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19472 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h59K1SI31891 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:01:28 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59K1SB31888 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:01:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19448 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSnd-0006dK-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:59:25 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSnc-0006dH-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:59:24 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59K17B31861; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:01:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59K0LB31779 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:00:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19419 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSmX-0006cm-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:58:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSmW-0006ci-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 15:58:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PSoS-000Fip-00; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:00:16 +0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:59:51 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15096265852.20030609125951@psg.com> To: Loa Andersson CC: l2vpn , Thomas Narten Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: <3EE2354E.2000309@pi.se> References: <3EE2354E.2000309@pi.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by www1.ietf.org id h59K17B31861 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h59K1SB31888 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Loa, > I've put a few questions into the updated version of the l2vpn charter, > background is some wg chair experiences, so it is at this point rather > formalistic issues. The kind of stuff a wg chair will ask him- or > herself when approached by people wanting to do (not to do) certain > things at a specific point in time. > Note: at this time I'm still playing catch up and is not through all > my mail and haven read this thread to the end, Soit is possible that > I'm knocking in open doors. In that case just ignore. Thanks for thoughtful comments. It is a good idea to clarify possible interpretations now. Please see inline below > This working group is responsible for defining and specifying a > limited number of solutions > Qustion: What is a limited number of solutions? Understanding that > it is not possible to give an exact number, there is nevertehless > a need to understand what the limitations are. A 100 is still liomited, > but so is 1 or 2. My opinion is that the _default_ mode for the WG should be one solution per item of the list below (VPLS, VPWS, IPL2VPN), each going to STD track. If the WG believes at some point that more than one is necessary, than (as usual) a strong case would need to be made wrt why one is not enough. > Question: Since there are no MPLS enabled networks that are not IP > networks (control by an IP routing protocól), it is an open > issue how to read this. > Should it be read as: > a. one solution for IP networks > b. another for MPLS enabled networks > c. or a common solutions that works in both MPLS enabled > networks and in IP networks that is not MPLS enabled The intent is to say that the WG should aspire to "c" above. > The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other > scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated charter when > the current one is completed.) > Question: "Completed" is fuzzy, when is something completed > - wg last call done, > - sent to the iesg for review > - iesg decision > - published as RFC. I would consider an document/milestone completed when the IESG review is completed and it's approved. > It is likely that the point in time is when the previous > task is "90% done" is when something could be viewed as > completed from a wg point of view. > One would need more freedom, and the IETF process is probably > good enough "after the wg have requested a charter update > from the iesg and have had that request approved". The way I see this happening is that the WG chairs and ADs would discuss the matter, and as soon as both sides are comfortable with adding more work on the plate, new items would be taken on. The intent of that piece of the charter is to set priorities for the WG. > As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will > provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing > protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. > The group will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before > they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. > Question: Can't make head an tail of this. If the wg produces > "requirements" to be sent to a protocol specific wg, > once this is done the work will be done within that wg. > No? If not is the process that we produce "requirements" > that will be "discussed in the protocol specific wg" and > once approved by wg and the iesg, the l2vpn wg will > develop the extensions that will go through the same > process. Could become a bit cumbersome. > If we are not doing the extension, how do we make sure > that we have the attention on the other working group. We had a discussion about this on the list. The text above tries to capture in a short form what I described in my message on May 9th: Alex Zinin wrote: [...] > 3. In reality, what we want to achieve is the VPN community being > able to propose and document extensions to existing protocols > that would help VPN technology development. Also, before a given > mechanism goes forward, we need to make sure that: > > a. The VPN community believes that it serves the purpose > and the right way forward > > AND > > b. The protocol-specific community believes that using > the protocol is a good idea and the way this is done > is correct. > > Given that finally the extension specs have to live in the > protocol-specific WGs, ow about we use the following process > (draft): > > 1. VPN folks who believe that a given protocol extension > is needed, come up with an individual draft describing > the details. > > 2. The draft is brought to the appropriate VPN WG. A discussion > on the mailing list AND in the room is held on the subject of > why this is needed and whether this is a good idea VPN-wise. > If there is no agreement on this--the draft does not go > any further. Otherwise: > > 3. The draft is taken to the protocol-specific WG. The WG > discusses if it is happy with it as a general approach, if > so takes it as a WG item. Otherwise, the WG chairs summarize > the discussion and send the summary to the VPN WG. > > 4. If the draft is accepted by the protocol-specific WG, > the appropriate VPN framework document is updated to describe > it and refer to the doc. > > 5. The WG chairs coordinate timing for the draft. > When ready to go to IESG, the draft is LC'ed in both WGs. Please see if this makes sense. > The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items > will require rechartering: rechartering. > Question: This is possibly too restrictive, we might see that there are > work items that are "within charter" and we would like to > undertake those task, but it wouldn't require a new charter. The intent here is again to give WG chairs and ADs a tool to control the amount of work in the WG. For instance, if we wanted to add QoS, we would need to add an item to this list, and hence revise the charter. If an item is within the charter, then adding it should be a matter of adding a milestone, which is a much less painful procedure. > 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and > topology of required connectivity > 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters > 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific > solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, > and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate > document) > 4. MIBs > 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM > solutions for VPLS and VPWS. > Question: OAM for IP only L2VPNs? No objection > 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using > dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only > after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are > defined. > Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1 > Question: Wouldn't it be appropriate to look into re-using mechanisms > that are (have been) developed by the l3vpn wg? And the other > way around? > Or is this within the IETF mode of working, and need not to > be explicitly stated? I would say this consideration will anyways be on a case-by-case basis, which is, as you say, already the normal IETF mode. Thanks Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 9 16:14:12 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19711 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h59KDjv00702 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:13:45 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59KDiB00699 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:13:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19705 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSzV-0006h4-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:11:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSzU-0006h1-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:11:40 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59KD3B00683; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:13:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59KCuB00668 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:12:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19702 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSyj-0006gy-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:10:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PSyi-0006gv-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:10:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PSzv-000GJn-00; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:12:07 +0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:11:41 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15896976414.20030609131141@psg.com> To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" CC: Vach Kompella , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, >> OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"? > Okay. But I am afraid the term "parameters" will be > interpreted as the stuff that goes after the signaling > info used for the purpose of connectivity (stuff like > optional parameters, etc)... Could you propose wording that would (to your mind) address your concern? Thanks. Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 9 20:01:59 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25697 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5A01V615666 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:01:31 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5A01VB15660 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:01:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25691 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PWXw-00005V-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:59:28 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PWXv-00005S-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:59:27 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5A01AB15640; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:01:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h59NxLB15529 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:59:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25621 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PWVp-00004k-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:57:17 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PWVp-00004c-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 19:57:17 -0400 Received: from bucket.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@bucket.cisco.com [161.44.167.72]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h59Nwkpi026334 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tnadeauw2k (rtp-vpn1-365.cisco.com [10.82.225.109]) by bucket.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.1.0.66-GA) with ESMTP id AAC26292; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" To: "'l2vpn'" Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:58:41 -0400 Organization: Cisco Systems Message-ID: <005101c32ee3$0dd877d0$6401a8c0@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <15096265852.20030609125951@psg.com> X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h59NxLB15530 Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by www1.ietf.org id h5A01AB15640 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5A01VB15660 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Original Message----- > From: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-admin@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Alex Zinin > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 4:00 PM > To: Loa Andersson > Cc: l2vpn; Thomas Narten > Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter > > > Loa, > > > I've put a few questions into the updated version of the l2vpn > > charter, background is some wg chair experiences, so it is at this > > point rather formalistic issues. The kind of stuff a wg > chair will ask > > him- or herself when approached by people wanting to do (not to do) > > certain things at a specific point in time. > > > Note: at this time I'm still playing catch up and is not > through all > > my mail and haven read this thread to the end, Soit is > possible that > > I'm knocking in open doors. In that case just ignore. > > Thanks for thoughtful comments. It is a good idea to clarify > possible interpretations now. Please see inline below > > > This working group is responsible for defining and specifying a > > limited number of solutions > > > Qustion: What is a limited number of solutions? > Understanding that it > > is not possible to give an exact number, there is > nevertehless a need > > to understand what the limitations are. A 100 is still > liomited, but > > so is 1 or 2. > > My opinion is that the _default_ mode for the WG should be > one solution per item of the list below (VPLS, VPWS, > IPL2VPN), each going to STD track. If the WG believes at some > point that more than one is necessary, than (as usual) a > strong case would need to be made wrt why one is not enough. Alex, I like this idea in theory, but in practice, how is the determination of going with one over the other going to be made if the WG seems fairly divided? I have seen this handled in different ways in different WGs in the past, but it was never consistent. I guess we could always call in the VP to breat the tie or flip a coin? *) --tom > > Question: Since there are no MPLS enabled networks that are not IP > > networks (control by an IP routing protocól), it > is an open > > issue how to read this. > > > Should it be read as: > > a. one solution for IP networks > > b. another for MPLS enabled networks > > c. or a common solutions that works in both MPLS enabled > > networks and in IP networks that is not MPLS enabled > > The intent is to say that the WG should aspire to "c" above. > > > The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other > > scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated > charter when > > the current one is completed.) > > > Question: "Completed" is fuzzy, when is something completed > > - wg last call done, > > - sent to the iesg for review > > - iesg decision > > - published as RFC. > > I would consider an document/milestone completed when the > IESG review is completed and it's approved. > > > It is likely that the point in time is when the previous > > task is "90% done" is when something could be viewed as > > completed from a wg point of view. > > One would need more freedom, and the IETF > process is probably > > good enough "after the wg have requested a charter update > > from the iesg and have had that request approved". > > The way I see this happening is that the WG chairs and ADs > would discuss the matter, and as soon as both sides are > comfortable with adding more work on the plate, new items > would be taken on. The intent of that piece of the charter is > to set priorities for the WG. > > > As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will > > provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing > > protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. The > > group will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs > before they > > are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. > > > Question: Can't make head an tail of this. If the wg produces > > "requirements" to be sent to a protocol specific wg, > > once this is done the work will be done within that wg. > > No? If not is the process that we produce "requirements" > > that will be "discussed in the protocol specific wg" and > > once approved by wg and the iesg, the l2vpn wg will > > develop the extensions that will go through the same > > process. Could become a bit cumbersome. > > If we are not doing the extension, how do we make sure > > that we have the attention on the other working group. > > We had a discussion about this on the list. The text above > tries to capture in a short form what I described in my > message on May 9th: > > Alex Zinin wrote: > [...] > > 3. In reality, what we want to achieve is the VPN community being > > able to propose and document extensions to existing protocols > > that would help VPN technology development. Also, before a given > > mechanism goes forward, we need to make sure that: > > > > a. The VPN community believes that it serves the purpose > > and the right way forward > > > > AND > > > > b. The protocol-specific community believes that using > > the protocol is a good idea and the way this is done > > is correct. > > > > Given that finally the extension specs have to live in the > > protocol-specific WGs, ow about we use the following process > > (draft): > > > > 1. VPN folks who believe that a given protocol extension > > is needed, come up with an individual draft describing > > the details. > > > > 2. The draft is brought to the appropriate VPN WG. A discussion > > on the mailing list AND in the room is held on the > subject of > > why this is needed and whether this is a good idea VPN-wise. > > If there is no agreement on this--the draft does not go > > any further. Otherwise: > > > > 3. The draft is taken to the protocol-specific WG. The WG > > discusses if it is happy with it as a general approach, if > > so takes it as a WG item. Otherwise, the WG chairs summarize > > the discussion and send the summary to the VPN WG. > > > > 4. If the draft is accepted by the protocol-specific WG, > > the appropriate VPN framework document is updated > to describe > > it and refer to the doc. > > > > 5. The WG chairs coordinate timing for the draft. > > When ready to go to IESG, the draft is LC'ed in both WGs. > > Please see if this makes sense. > > > The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items will > > require rechartering: rechartering. > > > Question: This is possibly too restrictive, we might see > that there are > > work items that are "within charter" and we would like to > > undertake those task, but it wouldn't require a new > > charter. > > The intent here is again to give WG chairs and ADs a tool to > control the amount of work in the WG. For instance, if we > wanted to add QoS, we would need to add an item to this list, > and hence revise the charter. > > If an item is within the charter, then adding it should be a > matter of adding a milestone, which is a much less painful procedure. > > > 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and > > topology of required connectivity > > > 2. Signaling of pseudo-wire and service parameters > > > 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific > > solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, > > and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate > > document) > > > 4. MIBs > > > 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM > > solutions for VPLS and VPWS. > > > Question: OAM for IP only L2VPNs? > > No objection > > > 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using > > dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only > > after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are > > defined. > > > Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with > IEEE 802.1 > > > Question: Wouldn't it be appropriate to look into re-using > mechanisms > > that are (have been) developed by the l3vpn wg? > And the other > > way around? > > Or is this within the IETF mode of working, and > need not to > > be explicitly stated? > > I would say this consideration will anyways be on a > case-by-case basis, which is, as you say, already the normal > IETF mode. > > Thanks > > Alex > > From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 10:46:12 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03682 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5AEjmq28635 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:45:48 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AEjmB28631 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:45:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03636 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PkLc-00072z-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:43:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PkLb-00072t-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:43:39 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AEj7B28565; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:45:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AEiTB28454 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:44:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03564 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PkKL-00071h-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:42:21 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PkKK-000718-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:42:20 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h5AEhiq10015; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:43:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin Cc: Vach Kompella , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:43:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32F5E.B10CBB3E" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32F5E.B10CBB3E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, Not a major concern but how about: "Signaling of l2vpn related information for the purpose of setup and maintenance of l2vpn circuits. When applicable PWE3 signaling procedures should be used". That pretty much reflects current reality... Hamid. > > >> OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"? > > > Okay. But I am afraid the term "parameters" will be > > interpreted as the stuff that goes after the signaling > > info used for the purpose of connectivity (stuff like > > optional parameters, etc)... > > Could you propose wording that would (to your mind) address your > concern? > > Thanks. > Alex > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32F5E.B10CBB3E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Alex,

Not a major concern but how about:
 
"Signaling of l2vpn related information
for the purpose of setup and maintenance of
l2vpn circuits. When applicable PWE3 signaling
procedures should be used".
 
That pretty much reflects current reality...

Hamid.

>
> >> OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"?
>
> > Okay. But I am afraid the term "parameters" will be
> > interpreted as the stuff that goes after the signaling
> > info used for the purpose of connectivity (stuff like
> > optional parameters, etc)...
> 
> Could you propose wording that would (to your mind) address your
> concern?
>
> Thanks.
> Alex
>
>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C32F5E.B10CBB3E-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 15:17:03 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14217 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5AJGY718690 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:16:34 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AJGYB18687 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:16:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14206 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PoZi-0001RO-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:14:30 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PoZh-0001RK-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:14:29 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AJGAB18672; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:16:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AJFGB18641 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:15:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14105 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PoYR-0001Qx-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:13:11 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PoYR-0001Qm-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:13:11 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h5AJEYq09764; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:14:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin , Loa Andersson Cc: l2vpn , Thomas Narten Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:14:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32F84.85524218" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32F84.85524218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, Loa, > > > Qustion: What is a limited number of solutions? Understanding that > > it is not possible to give an exact number, there is nevertehless > > a need to understand what the limitations are. A 100 is > still liomited, > > but so is 1 or 2. > > My opinion is that the _default_ mode for the WG should be one > solution per item of the list below (VPLS, VPWS, IPL2VPN), each going > to STD track. If the WG believes at some point that more than one is > necessary, than (as usual) a strong case would need to be made wrt why > one is not enough. > Not sure this is in fact accurate. The charter indicated that the l2vpn services need to be provided across both IP and MPLS-enabled IP network, and since a solution is described in the charter as "providing the framework for a specific solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, and encaps work together, include security", It results that we will end up, at least, with two solutions for the same service...(that's another reason why I think the charter should mention explicitly that one of desirable goals is to maximize commonalities among solutions (even between the IP and MPLS-based solutions). Hamid. (with no intent of respining the "single vs multiple solutions" debate ;-)). ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32F84.85524218 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Alex, Loa,

>
> > Qustion: What is a limited number of solutions? Understanding that
> > it is not possible to give an exact number, there is nevertehless
> > a need to understand what the limitations are. A 100 is
> still liomited,
> > but so is 1 or 2.
>
> My opinion is that the _default_ mode for the WG should be one
> solution per item of the list below (VPLS, VPWS, IPL2VPN), each going
> to STD track. If the WG believes at some point that more than one is
> necessary, than (as usual) a strong case would need to be made wrt why
> one is not enough.
>
Not sure this is in fact accurate. The charter indicated
that the l2vpn services need to be provided across both
IP and MPLS-enabled IP network, and since a solution is described
in the charter as
 
"providing the framework for a specific solution,
should include info on how discovery, signaling, and encaps work
together, include security",
 
It results that we will end up, at least, with two solutions
for the same service...(that's another reason why I think
the charter should mention explicitly that one of desirable
goals is to maximize commonalities among solutions
(even between the IP and MPLS-based solutions).
 
Hamid.
 
(with no intent of respining the "single vs multiple solutions"
debate ;-)).
 
 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32F84.85524218-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 16:45:11 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17144 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5AKiiv25278 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:44 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AKiiB25275 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17069 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ppx0-0001yJ-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:42:38 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ppwz-0001yG-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:42:37 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AKiOB25256; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:24 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AKhPB25213 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:43:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16974 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ppvj-0001xi-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:41:19 -0400 Received: from kanfw1.ottawa.alcatel.ca ([192.75.23.69] helo=kanmx2.ca.alcatel.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ppvh-0001xc-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:41:17 -0400 Received: (qmail 14932 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 20:45:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camail03.ca.alcatel.com) (138.120.105.217) by kanmx2.ca.alcatel.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2003 20:45:54 -0000 Received: from alcatel.com ([138.120.62.63]) by camail03.ca.alcatel.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HGA9K500.H6D; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:43:17 -0400 Message-ID: <3EE642E0.F617107F@alcatel.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:43:12 -0400 From: "Cheng-Yin Lee" Reply-To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li CC: Jeff Learman , Mailing List , isis-wg@ietf.org, Acee Lindem , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff, Tony, Acee, Thanks for your clarification. L2VPN WG is defining emulated LAN (and broadcast network for IP traffic) service over IP/MPLS network and some of the mechanims being defined can result in loss of communication among a subset of routers on the emulated LAN (even if all the nodes in the underlying IP/MPLS transport network are reachable). Some of the discussions have been how tolerable are routing protocols to this type of problem, if it is worth fixing some L2VPN WG mechanisms to prevent this problem, how feasible are these L2VPN solutions, are these not well-known problems ... I hope the L2VPN WG would consider these issues and requirements in the L2VPN solutions. Perhaps a more detailed understanding of how things work/don't work may help L2VPN WG develop/appreciate solutios that will work well with routers for e.g, in case of (i) below, what would an emulated LAN user observe in the routed network (is this predictable/unpredictable?) Thanks Cheng-Yin p.s I have cced l2vpn, but pls feel free to respond only to the relevant WG as is appropriate. Tony Li wrote: > > We should also point out that in case i) things are truly broken and > in case ii) the DR will not form an adjacency with A and the protocols > will be able to tell that things are broken. > > Tony > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] > | Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:29 AM > | To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com > | Cc: Mailing List; isis-wg@ietf.org > | Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN > | > | > | > | This violates the transitivity requirement stated in ISO 10589. > | You can't run ISIS on a subnetwork where this happens. > | At least, that's the theory ;) > | > | At 11:52 AM 6/10/2003, Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: > | >Hello, > | >Just got some private responses, perhaps I should clarify. > | >This is in context of an emulated LAN, and I am not > | looking for a fix in > | >routing protocols. > | > > | >Thanks > | >Cheng-Yin > | > > | >Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: > | >> > | >> Hello, > | >> What happens if for some reason Router A can't reach > | Router B, but > | >> Router C can reach A & B (and vice-versa), when Router A,B,C are > | >> connected over a broadcast network or LAN. > | >> > | >> E.g. in the case for (OSPF and IS-IS) where: > | >> i) C is the DR > | >> ii) B is the DR > | >> > | >> Thanks > | >> Cheng-Yin > Hi Cheng-Yin, > > What I've recommended in the past for these situations is to force > the routing protocol to view the underlying network as a P2MP > (Point-to-Multi-Point) network. Many vendors support this. For > example, in our implementation you'd simply configure: > > router ospf 1 > area 0 > interface backbone > network-type point-to-multipoint > o > o > < the rest of the OSPF config> > o > > Good Luck, > Acee From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 19:04:50 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22134 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5AN4Ru02168 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:04:27 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AN4RB02165 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:04:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22108 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ps8A-0002vM-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:02:18 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ps89-0002vJ-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:02:17 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AN47B02115; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:04:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5AN1sB02007 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:01:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22047 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ps5h-0002ti-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:59:45 -0400 Received: from maile.telia.com ([194.22.190.16]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ps5g-0002tf-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:59:44 -0400 Received: from d1o888.telia.com (d1o888.telia.com [213.67.172.241]) by maile.telia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5AN1cM3006950; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:01:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Original-Recipient: l2vpn@ietf.org Received: from pi.se (h45n1fls31o888.telia.com [213.67.172.45]) by d1o888.telia.com (8.10.2p2/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h5AN1ac05357; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:01:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3EE6623A.9090403@pi.se> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:56:58 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020605 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hamid Ould-Brahim CC: Alex Zinin , l2vpn , Thomas Narten Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, lost track of the arguments. My question and Alex answer below -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Should it be read as: > a. one solution for IP networks > b. another for MPLS enabled networks > c. or a common solutions that works in both MPLS enabled > networks and in IP networks that is not MPLS enabled The intent is to say that the WG should aspire to "c" above. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I guess that we all agree - default is one solution per vpws, vpls and ipls, that works for both ip and mpls enabled ip networks. same == maximum commonalities! /Loa Hamid Ould-Brahim wrote: > Alex, Loa, > > > > > > Qustion: What is a limited number of solutions? Understanding that > > > it is not possible to give an exact number, there is nevertehless > > > a need to understand what the limitations are. A 100 is > > still liomited, > > > but so is 1 or 2. > > > > My opinion is that the _default_ mode for the WG should be one > > solution per item of the list below (VPLS, VPWS, IPL2VPN), each going > > to STD track. If the WG believes at some point that more than one is > > necessary, than (as usual) a strong case would need to be made wrt why > > one is not enough. > > > Not sure this is in fact accurate. The charter indicated > that the l2vpn services need to be provided across both > IP and MPLS-enabled IP network, and since a solution is described > in the charter as > > "providing the framework for a specific solution, > should include info on how discovery, signaling, and encaps work > together, include security", > > It results that we will end up, at least, with two solutions > for the same service...(that's another reason why I think > the charter should mention explicitly that one of desirable > goals is to maximize commonalities among solutions > (even between the IP and MPLS-based solutions). > > Hamid. > > (with no intent of respining the "single vs multiple solutions" > debate ;-)). > -- /Loa mobile + 46 739 81 21 64 email: loa@pi.se From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 10 21:17:52 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA25417 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5B1HQU11479 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:17:26 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5B1HPB11476 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:17:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA25382 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PuCs-0003kh-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:15:18 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PuCs-0003ke-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:15:18 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5B1H4B11413; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:17:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5B1GKB11390 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:16:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA25350 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PuBp-0003kP-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:14:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PuBo-0003kM-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:14:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19PuDk-000MCj-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:16:15 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:42:06 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7713717855.20030610144206@psg.com> To: "'l2vpn'" Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: <005101c32ee3$0dd877d0$6401a8c0@amer.cisco.com> References: <005101c32ee3$0dd877d0$6401a8c0@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom- >> My opinion is that the _default_ mode for the WG should be >> one solution per item of the list below (VPLS, VPWS, >> IPL2VPN), each going to STD track. If the WG believes at some >> point that more than one is necessary, than (as usual) a >> strong case would need to be made wrt why one is not enough. > Alex, > I like this idea in theory, but in practice, how is > the determination of going with one over the other going to > be made if the WG seems fairly divided? I have seen this > handled in different ways in different WGs in the past, but > it was never consistent. I guess we could always call in > the VP to breat the tie or flip a coin? *) This topic is what we (the ADs and the WG chairs) are discussing now. There is no magic wand. However, what I can say already is: 1. If the WG is able to make the decision, we should do everything possible to make this happen--no doubt that decisions made by consensus are preferred over all other options. 2. I'd like us to have a clear understanding on the way forward (read have made all necessary decisions) two weeks from Vienna the latest. 3. To make this possible, we'll start the discussion right after the charter has been approved. Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 11 18:30:59 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07327 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:30:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5BMUXn12124 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:30:33 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BMUXm12121 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:30:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07297 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QE4v-0004jJ-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:28:25 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QE4v-0004jF-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:28:25 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BMU8m12090; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:30:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BMTFm12038 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:29:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA07250 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QE3f-0004ih-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:27:07 -0400 Received: from kanfw1.ottawa.alcatel.ca ([192.75.23.69] helo=kanmx1.ca.alcatel.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QE3e-0004iZ-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:27:06 -0400 Received: (qmail 26991 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2003 22:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camail03.ca.alcatel.com) (138.120.105.217) by kanmx1.ca.alcatel.com with SMTP; 11 Jun 2003 22:38:55 -0000 Received: from alcatel.com ([138.120.62.63]) by camail03.ca.alcatel.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HGC94M00.5RB; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:29:10 -0400 Message-ID: <3EE7AD2E.B9773CEF@alcatel.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:29:02 -0400 From: "Cheng-Yin Lee" Reply-To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li CC: Jeff Learman , Mailing List , isis-wg@ietf.org, Acee Lindem , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony, Naiming, Thanks for clarifying this further and providing suggestions. I would agree that it's better to use point-to-point links (or OSPF's multipoint) when there are such problems. As known, this is not a problem in a real LAN segment or emulated LAN segment, provided by a bridged LAN (bridging over real LAN segments) or bridging over circuits. As has been brought up in the OSPF/IS-IS mailing lists, it is when the emulated LAN (broadcast network) uses an approach whereby a full-meshed of communication is required and there is a requirement that every communication channel is working that this becomes a problem for routing (and for bridges too). There have been some proposals to overcome the problems in the full-meshed approach, e.g. disabling the emulated LAN when one or more connectivity loss is detected or artificially partitioning the emulated LAN, or engineer the transport network in such a way that communication failure never/rarely happens from the perspective of the user of the service (e.g. routers). More protocol mechanisms (and perhaps some heuristics) may be used to emulate a proper LAN failure, but I think it not easy to get this working (it also raises the question, is this the only compelling way), in particular because of race/timing issues. Can an operator engineer a network such that the pseudo-wire or communications never or "rarely" fail from the perspective of routers/bridges? What is the cost and effectiveness (backup and rerouting pseudo-wire may not be sufficient as there can be many other reasons why communication is lost) in this case? I hope the L2VPN WG would consider these service issues as carefully as L2VPN discovery protocols because even the best L2VPN discovery protocols cannot help if the L2VPN service itself does not work well with routers and bridges. Thanks Cheng-Yin Tony Li wrote: > > Folks, > > In particular, if there is a disconnect on a broadcast medium > between two routers and neither is the DR, then the two routers > will present a black hole between them. This problem has been > seen before in real life and is Not Pretty. > > For this reason alone, I would encourage you to model any L2 > solution as a number of point-to-point links. > > Regards, > Tony Naiming Shen wrote: > > i don't think l2vpn wg needs to do much. when use link-state igp > in those places, ALWAYS assume it's unreliable. just use p2p. period. > > > | -----Original Message----- > | From: Cheng-Yin Lee [mailto:Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com] > | Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 1:43 PM > | To: Tony Li > | Cc: Jeff Learman; Mailing List; isis-wg@ietf.org; Acee > | Lindem; l2vpn@ietf.org > | Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN > | > | > | Jeff, Tony, Acee, > | Thanks for your clarification. > | L2VPN WG is defining emulated LAN (and broadcast network > | for IP traffic) > | service over IP/MPLS network and some of the mechanims > | being defined can > | result in loss of communication among a subset of routers on the > | emulated LAN (even if all the nodes in the underlying > | IP/MPLS transport > | network are reachable). > | Some of the discussions have been how tolerable are > | routing protocols to > | this type of problem, if it is worth fixing some L2VPN WG > | mechanisms to > | prevent this problem, how feasible are these L2VPN > | solutions, are these > | not well-known problems ... > | > | I hope the L2VPN WG would consider these issues and > | requirements in the > | L2VPN solutions. > | Perhaps a more detailed understanding of how things > | work/don't work may > | help L2VPN WG develop/appreciate solutios that will work well with > | routers for e.g, in case of (i) below, what would an > | emulated LAN user > | observe in the routed network (is this predictable/unpredictable?) > | > | Thanks > | Cheng-Yin > | p.s I have cced l2vpn, but pls feel free to respond only > | to the relevant > | WG as is appropriate. > | > | Tony Li wrote: > | > > | > We should also point out that in case i) things are > | truly broken and > | > in case ii) the DR will not form an adjacency with A and > | the protocols > | > will be able to tell that things are broken. > | > > | > Tony > | > > | > | -----Original Message----- > | > | From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] > | > | Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:29 AM > | > | To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com > | > | Cc: Mailing List; isis-wg@ietf.org > | > | Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of > | routers over a LAN > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | This violates the transitivity requirement stated > | in ISO 10589. > | > | You can't run ISIS on a subnetwork where this happens. > | > | At least, that's the theory ;) > | > | > | > | At 11:52 AM 6/10/2003, Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: > | > | >Hello, > | > | >Just got some private responses, perhaps I should clarify. > | > | >This is in context of an emulated LAN, and I am not > | > | looking for a fix in > | > | >routing protocols. > | > | > > | > | >Thanks > | > | >Cheng-Yin > | > | > > | > | >Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: > | > | >> > | > | >> Hello, > | > | >> What happens if for some reason Router A can't reach > | > | Router B, but > | > | >> Router C can reach A & B (and vice-versa), when > | Router A,B,C are > | > | >> connected over a broadcast network or LAN. > | > | >> > | > | >> E.g. in the case for (OSPF and IS-IS) where: > | > | >> i) C is the DR > | > | >> ii) B is the DR > | > | >> > | > | >> Thanks > | > | >> Cheng-Yin > | > | > | > Hi Cheng-Yin, > | > > | > What I've recommended in the past for these situations > | is to force > | > the routing protocol to view the underlying network as a P2MP > | > (Point-to-Multi-Point) network. Many vendors support this. For > | > example, in our implementation you'd simply configure: > | > > | > router ospf 1 > | > area 0 > | > interface backbone > | > network-type point-to-multipoint > | > o > | > o > | > < the rest of the OSPF config> > | > o > | > > | > Good Luck, > | > Acee > | > _______________________________________________ > Isis-wg mailing list > Isis-wg@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 11 23:16:54 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12922 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5C3GQ031176 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:26 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5C3GQm31171 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12893 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QIXb-0006CL-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:14:19 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QIXb-0006CI-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:14:19 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5C3G5m31142; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ALEQB28031 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:14:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18224; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PqPj-0002Eo-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:12:19 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PqPh-0002El-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:12:17 -0400 Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EA01498EB; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:14:20 -0700 (PDT) To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com Cc: Tony Li , Jeff Learman , Mailing List , isis-wg@ietf.org, Acee Lindem , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN In-reply-to: Mail from "Cheng-Yin Lee" dated Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:43:12 EDT <3EE642E0.F617107F@alcatel.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:14:20 -0700 From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20030610211420.78EA01498EB@prattle.redback.com> Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , i don't think l2vpn wg needs to do much. when use link-state igp in those places, ALWAYS assume it's unreliable. just use p2p. period. ] Jeff, Tony, Acee, ] Thanks for your clarification. ] L2VPN WG is defining emulated LAN (and broadcast network for IP traffic) ] service over IP/MPLS network and some of the mechanims being defined can ] result in loss of communication among a subset of routers on the ] emulated LAN (even if all the nodes in the underlying IP/MPLS transport ] network are reachable). ] Some of the discussions have been how tolerable are routing protocols to ] this type of problem, if it is worth fixing some L2VPN WG mechanisms to ] prevent this problem, how feasible are these L2VPN solutions, are these ] not well-known problems ... ] ] I hope the L2VPN WG would consider these issues and requirements in the ] L2VPN solutions. ] Perhaps a more detailed understanding of how things work/don't work may ] help L2VPN WG develop/appreciate solutios that will work well with ] routers for e.g, in case of (i) below, what would an emulated LAN user ] observe in the routed network (is this predictable/unpredictable?) ] ] Thanks ] Cheng-Yin ] p.s I have cced l2vpn, but pls feel free to respond only to the relevant ] WG as is appropriate. ] ] Tony Li wrote: ] > ] > We should also point out that in case i) things are truly broken and ] > in case ii) the DR will not form an adjacency with A and the protocols ] > will be able to tell that things are broken. ] > ] > Tony ] > ] > | -----Original Message----- ] > | From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] ] > | Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:29 AM ] > | To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com ] > | Cc: Mailing List; isis-wg@ietf.org ] > | Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN ] > | ] > | ] > | ] > | This violates the transitivity requirement stated in ISO 10589. ] > | You can't run ISIS on a subnetwork where this happens. ] > | At least, that's the theory ;) ] > | ] > | At 11:52 AM 6/10/2003, Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: ] > | >Hello, ] > | >Just got some private responses, perhaps I should clarify. ] > | >This is in context of an emulated LAN, and I am not ] > | looking for a fix in ] > | >routing protocols. ] > | > ] > | >Thanks ] > | >Cheng-Yin ] > | > ] > | >Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: ] > | >> ] > | >> Hello, ] > | >> What happens if for some reason Router A can't reach ] > | Router B, but ] > | >> Router C can reach A & B (and vice-versa), when Router A,B,C are ] > | >> connected over a broadcast network or LAN. ] > | >> ] > | >> E.g. in the case for (OSPF and IS-IS) where: ] > | >> i) C is the DR ] > | >> ii) B is the DR ] > | >> ] > | >> Thanks ] > | >> Cheng-Yin ] ] ] > Hi Cheng-Yin, ] > ] > What I've recommended in the past for these situations is to force ] > the routing protocol to view the underlying network as a P2MP ] > (Point-to-Multi-Point) network. Many vendors support this. For ] > example, in our implementation you'd simply configure: ] > ] > router ospf 1 ] > area 0 ] > interface backbone ] > network-type point-to-multipoint ] > o ] > o ] > < the rest of the OSPF config> ] > o ] > ] > Good Luck, ] > Acee ] _______________________________________________ ] Isis-wg mailing list ] Isis-wg@ietf.org ] https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg - Naiming From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 12 00:06:05 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12923 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5C3GQC31177 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:26 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5C3GQm31169 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12890 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QIXb-0006CH-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:14:19 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QIXa-0006CE-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:14:18 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5C3G6m31158; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:16:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5ALG6B28182 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:16:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18300; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PqRL-0002G2-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:13:59 -0400 Received: from dmz2.procket.com ([65.174.124.37]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19PqRK-0002Fl-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:13:58 -0400 Received: from miata.procket.com (zeus-d-1.procket.com [65.174.124.60]) by dmz2.procket.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4473443F; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXCHANGE0-0.na.procket.com (exchange0a.na.procket.com [10.1.7.7]) by miata.procket.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h5ALFVYB022829; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:15:31 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN Thread-Index: AcMvkPDidAYjI9EtRdCmhJaXDdRP+gAA+ppw From: "Tony Li" To: Cc: "Jeff Learman" , "Mailing List" , , "Acee Lindem" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5ALG6B28184 Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, In particular, if there is a disconnect on a broadcast medium between two routers and neither is the DR, then the two routers will present a black hole between them. This problem has been seen before in real life and is Not Pretty. For this reason alone, I would encourage you to model any L2 solution as a number of point-to-point links. Regards, Tony | -----Original Message----- | From: Cheng-Yin Lee [mailto:Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com] | Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 1:43 PM | To: Tony Li | Cc: Jeff Learman; Mailing List; isis-wg@ietf.org; Acee | Lindem; l2vpn@ietf.org | Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of routers over a LAN | | | Jeff, Tony, Acee, | Thanks for your clarification. | L2VPN WG is defining emulated LAN (and broadcast network | for IP traffic) | service over IP/MPLS network and some of the mechanims | being defined can | result in loss of communication among a subset of routers on the | emulated LAN (even if all the nodes in the underlying | IP/MPLS transport | network are reachable). | Some of the discussions have been how tolerable are | routing protocols to | this type of problem, if it is worth fixing some L2VPN WG | mechanisms to | prevent this problem, how feasible are these L2VPN | solutions, are these | not well-known problems ... | | I hope the L2VPN WG would consider these issues and | requirements in the | L2VPN solutions. | Perhaps a more detailed understanding of how things | work/don't work may | help L2VPN WG develop/appreciate solutios that will work well with | routers for e.g, in case of (i) below, what would an | emulated LAN user | observe in the routed network (is this predictable/unpredictable?) | | Thanks | Cheng-Yin | p.s I have cced l2vpn, but pls feel free to respond only | to the relevant | WG as is appropriate. | | Tony Li wrote: | > | > We should also point out that in case i) things are | truly broken and | > in case ii) the DR will not form an adjacency with A and | the protocols | > will be able to tell that things are broken. | > | > Tony | > | > | -----Original Message----- | > | From: Jeff Learman [mailto:jlearman@cisco.com] | > | Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:29 AM | > | To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com | > | Cc: Mailing List; isis-wg@ietf.org | > | Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] Re: Inconsistent view of | routers over a LAN | > | | > | | > | | > | This violates the transitivity requirement stated | in ISO 10589. | > | You can't run ISIS on a subnetwork where this happens. | > | At least, that's the theory ;) | > | | > | At 11:52 AM 6/10/2003, Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: | > | >Hello, | > | >Just got some private responses, perhaps I should clarify. | > | >This is in context of an emulated LAN, and I am not | > | looking for a fix in | > | >routing protocols. | > | > | > | >Thanks | > | >Cheng-Yin | > | > | > | >Cheng-Yin Lee wrote: | > | >> | > | >> Hello, | > | >> What happens if for some reason Router A can't reach | > | Router B, but | > | >> Router C can reach A & B (and vice-versa), when | Router A,B,C are | > | >> connected over a broadcast network or LAN. | > | >> | > | >> E.g. in the case for (OSPF and IS-IS) where: | > | >> i) C is the DR | > | >> ii) B is the DR | > | >> | > | >> Thanks | > | >> Cheng-Yin | | | > Hi Cheng-Yin, | > | > What I've recommended in the past for these situations | is to force | > the routing protocol to view the underlying network as a P2MP | > (Point-to-Multi-Point) network. Many vendors support this. For | > example, in our implementation you'd simply configure: | > | > router ospf 1 | > area 0 | > interface backbone | > network-type point-to-multipoint | > o | > o | > < the rest of the OSPF config> | > o | > | > Good Luck, | > Acee | From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 12 08:05:22 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05467 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5CC4r513399 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:04:53 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CC4rm13396 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:04:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05436 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QQmz-00019g-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:02:45 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QQmy-00019d-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:02:44 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CC4Lm13318; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:04:21 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CC39m13256 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:03:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05373 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QQlJ-000199-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:01:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QQlI-000196-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:01:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19QQnG-0003go-00; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:03:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:02:46 -0400 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <106120769917.20030612080246@psg.com> To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" CC: Vach Kompella , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Updated L2VPN WG charter In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, I'd be fine with this, though I would change "When applicable" to "As much as possible". I'll change the text... -- Alex http://www.psg.com/~zinin/ Tuesday, June 10, 2003, 10:43:44 AM, Hamid Ould-Brahim wrote: > Alex, > Not a major concern but how about: > "Signaling of l2vpn related information > for the purpose of setup and maintenance of > l2vpn circuits. When applicable PWE3 signaling > procedures should be used". > That pretty much reflects current reality... > Hamid. >> >> >> OK, how about "Signaling of l2vpn service parameters"? >> >> > Okay. But I am afraid the term "parameters" will be >> > interpreted as the stuff that goes after the signaling >> > info used for the purpose of connectivity (stuff like >> > optional parameters, etc)... >> >> Could you propose wording that would (to your mind) address your >> concern? >> >> Thanks. >> Alex >> >> From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 12 08:23:50 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA06713 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5CCNMg15214 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:23:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CCNMm15211 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:23:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA06676 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QR4s-0001XA-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:21:14 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QR4r-0001X6-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:21:13 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CCN3m15195; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:23:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CCMYm15144 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:22:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA06618 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QR45-0001WJ-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:20:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QR45-0001WF-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:20:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19QR67-0004TC-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:22:31 +0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:22:14 -0400 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <161121938137.20030612082214@psg.com> To: l2vpn Subject: L2VPN charter rev 02 (final?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks Links to the updated charter and diff below. http://psg.com/~zinin/ietf/ppvpn/l2vpn-02.txt http://psg.com/~zinin/ietf/ppvpn/l2vpn-diff-01-02.html For those not on-line, the text of the charter inserted. I am taking this to the IESG telechat today, and hoping this is the final rev. -- Alex Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) Chairs: Area Director(s): Thomas Narten Erik Nordmark Area Advisor: Thomas Narten Technical Advisor: Alex Zinin Russ Housley Mailing Lists: General Discussion: l2vpn@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l2vpn Archive: https://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/l2vpn/current/maillist.html Description of Working Group: Alex is the routing advisor. Russ is the security advisor. This working group is responsible for defining and specifying a limited number of solutions for supporting provider-provisioned layer-2 virtual private networks (L2VPNs). The WG is responsible for standardization of the following solutions: 1. Virtual Private LAN Service--L2 service that emulates LAN across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard Ethernet devices communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment. 2. Virtual Private Wire Service--L2 service that provides L2 point-to-point connectivity (e.g. Frame Relay DLCI, ATM VPI/VCI, point-to-point Ethernet) across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network. 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- to-point circuit. The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated charter when the current one is completed.) As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. As a specific example, this WG will not define new encapsulation mechanism, but will use those defined in the PWE3 WG. L2VPN WG will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items will require rechartering. 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and topology of required connectivity 2. Signaling of l2vpn related information for the purpose of setup and maintenance of l2vpn circuits. As much as possible PWE3 signaling procedures should be used 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate document) 4. MIBs 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM solutions for VPLS, VPWS, and IP-only L2VPNs. 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are defined. Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1 Milestones (optimistic): JUL 2003 Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC JUL 2003 Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as Informational RFC JUL 2003 Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPLS AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPWS DEC 2003 Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG DEC 2003 Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG JAN 2004 Submit IP-only L2VPN solution documents to IESG FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPLS to IESG MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPWS to IESG APR 2004 Submit OAM for IP L2VPN to IESG From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 12 08:35:57 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07502 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5CCZSn15974 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:35:28 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CCZSm15971 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:35:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07497 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QRGa-0001lb-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:33:20 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QRGa-0001lY-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:33:20 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CCZ2m15958; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:35:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CCYGm15916 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:34:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07452 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QRFQ-0001lE-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:32:08 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QRFP-0001kU-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:32:07 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h5CCXen19907; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:33:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin Cc: Vach Kompella , l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Updated L2VPN WG charter Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:33:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C330DE.DA10168A" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C330DE.DA10168A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, > > I'd be fine with this, though I would change > "When applicable" to "As much as possible". > > I'll change the text... > That would be fine with me. Thanks. Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C330DE.DA10168A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Alex,

>
>   I'd be fine with this, though I would change
>   "When applicable" to "As much as possible".
>
>   I'll change the text...
>

That would be fine with me. Thanks.

Hamid.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C330DE.DA10168A-- From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Thu Jun 12 20:25:25 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02534 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5D0Ovd04978 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:24:57 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (lists.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5D0Ovm04975 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:24:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02519 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QcL9-0007Kk-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:22:48 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QcL9-0007Kg-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:22:47 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CNQ1a01239; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:26:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CNPom01228 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:25:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA01277 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QbPx-0006wf-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:23:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QbPw-0006wb-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:23:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19QbRc-0007Ci-00; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:25:46 +0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:24:57 -0400 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <13017188055.20030612192457@psg.com> To: "Cheng-Yin Lee" CC: l2vpn Subject: Re: L2VPN charter rev 02 (final?) In-Reply-To: <3EE8B9F3.F2B0D9F3@alcatel.com> References: <161121938137.20030612082214@psg.com> <3EE8B9F3.F2B0D9F3@alcatel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cheng-Yin, >> > 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific >> > solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, >> > and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate >> > document) > Do you mean security and inter-AS to be documented separately from the > solution document? It's up to the WG. The only constrain is that the security part needs to go to the IESG at the same time as the solutions. Alex From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Fri Jun 13 06:54:17 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27956 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5DArpG30219 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:53:51 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5DArpm30216 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:53:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27953 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Qm9k-0003Zy-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:51:40 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Qm9j-0003Zv-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:51:39 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CHm3a11484; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:48:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5CHa3m09749 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:36:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20247 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QVxS-0004bW-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:33:54 -0400 Received: from kanfw1.ottawa.alcatel.ca ([192.75.23.69] helo=kanmx1.ca.alcatel.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QVxR-0004bT-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:33:53 -0400 Received: (qmail 8555 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2003 17:45:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camail03.ca.alcatel.com) (138.120.105.217) by kanmx1.ca.alcatel.com with SMTP; 12 Jun 2003 17:45:43 -0000 Received: from alcatel.com ([138.120.62.63]) by camail03.ca.alcatel.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HGDQ7X00.E6V; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:35:57 -0400 Message-ID: <3EE8B9F3.F2B0D9F3@alcatel.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:35:47 -0400 From: "Cheng-Yin Lee" Reply-To: Cheng-Yin.Lee@alcatel.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zinin CC: l2vpn Subject: Re: L2VPN charter rev 02 (final?) References: <161121938137.20030612082214@psg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, > > 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific > > solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, > > and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate > > document) > > Do you mean security and inter-AS to be documented separately from the solution document? Thanks Cheng-Yin Alex Zinin wrote: > > Folks > > Links to the updated charter and diff below. > > http://psg.com/~zinin/ietf/ppvpn/l2vpn-02.txt > http://psg.com/~zinin/ietf/ppvpn/l2vpn-diff-01-02.html > > For those not on-line, the text of the charter inserted. > I am taking this to the IESG telechat today, and hoping > this is the final rev. > > -- > Alex > > Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) > > Chairs: > > Area Director(s): > Thomas Narten > Erik Nordmark > > Area Advisor: > Thomas Narten > > Technical Advisor: > Alex Zinin > Russ Housley > > Mailing Lists: > > General Discussion: l2vpn@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l2vpn > Archive: https://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/l2vpn/current/maillist.html > > Description of Working Group: > > Alex is the routing advisor. > Russ is the security advisor. > > This working group is responsible for defining and specifying a > limited number of solutions for supporting provider-provisioned > layer-2 virtual private networks (L2VPNs). > > The WG is responsible for standardization of the following solutions: > > 1. Virtual Private LAN Service--L2 service that emulates LAN > across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard > Ethernet devices communicate with each other as if they were > connected to a common LAN segment. > > 2. Virtual Private Wire Service--L2 service that provides L2 > point-to-point connectivity (e.g. Frame Relay DLCI, ATM VPI/VCI, > point-to-point Ethernet) across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network. > > 3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled > IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each > other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- > to-point circuit. > > The WG will address intra-AS scenarios only at this point (other > scenarios will be considered for inclusion in the updated charter when > the current one is completed.) > > As a general rule, the WG will not create new protocols, but will > provide functional requirements for extensions of the existing > protocols that will be discussed in the protocol-specific WGs. > As a specific example, this WG will not define new encapsulation > mechanism, but will use those defined in the PWE3 WG. > L2VPN WG will review proposed protocol extensions for L2VPNs before > they are recommended to appropriate protocol-specific WGs. > > The WG will work on the following items. Adding new work items > will require rechartering. > > 1. Discovery of PEs participating in L2 service, and > topology of required connectivity > > 2. Signaling of l2vpn related information for the purpose of > setup and maintenance of l2vpn circuits. As much as possible > PWE3 signaling procedures should be used > > 3. Solution documents (providing the framework for a specific > solution, should include info on how discovery, signaling, > and encaps work together, include security, AS as a separate > document) > > 4. MIBs > > 5. L2VPN-specific OAM extensions--extensions to existing OAM > solutions for VPLS, VPWS, and IP-only L2VPNs. > > 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using > dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only > after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are > defined. > > Where necessary, the WG will coordinate its activities with IEEE 802.1 > > Milestones (optimistic): > > JUL 2003 Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC > JUL 2003 Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as Informational RFC > JUL 2003 Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPLS > AUG 2003 Submit an I-D on OAM for VPWS > DEC 2003 Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG > DEC 2003 Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG > JAN 2004 Submit IP-only L2VPN solution documents to IESG > FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG > FEB 2004 Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG > MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPLS to IESG > MAR 2004 Submit OAM for VPWS to IESG > APR 2004 Submit OAM for IP L2VPN to IESG From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 15:44:51 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07472 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HJiMR21673 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:44:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SMNS-0005dU-9P for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:44:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07429 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SMLE-0004Aj-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:42:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SMLD-0004Af-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:42:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SM3p-000372-6j; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:24:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SLM4-0005FF-Gz for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:38:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02022 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SLJo-00035a-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:36:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SLJn-00035W-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:36:31 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19SLLx-000JIa-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:38:46 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:38:27 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2175508728.20030617113827@psg.com> To: l2vpn Subject: L2VPN charter discussed by IESG last week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks- I brought the L2VPN charter to the IESG last week. Item 6 in the list of tasks the WG is undertaking-- 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are defined. --caused some concerns within the IESG and it will take some time to discuss this subject. In the interest of progress, I made a decision to remove this item from the charter at this time so it can go to the IETF review stage. I will continue the discussion within the IESG with the plan to have a decision two weeks from Vienna. -- Alex http://www.psg.com/~zinin/ From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 16:45:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10463 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HKj2w04282 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNKA-00016z-30 for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10438 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNHv-0004po-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:42:43 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNHu-0004pl-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:42:42 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNK9-00016k-3J; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:45:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNJe-00014K-UX for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:44:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10341 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNHQ-0004os-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:42:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNHP-0004op-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:42:11 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] helo=127.0.0.1) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19SNJX-000Ohm-00; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:44:23 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:44:01 -0700 From: Alex Zinin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal Reply-To: Alex Zinin X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <177183042481.20030617134401@psg.com> To: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" CC: l2vpn Subject: Re: L2VPN charter discussed by IESG last week In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamid, > Would that be possible to know what these concerns are? Thanks. The high-order bit is whether this work belongs within the IETF or not. We're talking about details now. More later. Alex From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jun 17 16:47:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10738 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5HKlDN04710 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SNMH-0001Dt-Pv for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10684 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNK2-0004v8-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:44:54 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SNK2-0004v4-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:44:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SN4f-0008R1-Vh; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:29:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SMbO-0006cI-VU for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:58:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08159 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SMZA-0004KK-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:56:28 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SMZ9-0004KH-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:56:27 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h5HJuqb21457; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:46:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin , l2vpn Subject: RE: L2VPN charter discussed by IESG last week Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:46:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C33509.1ECD2708" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33509.1ECD2708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, > > I brought the L2VPN charter to the IESG last week. > > Item 6 in the list of tasks the WG is undertaking-- > > 6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using > dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only > after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are > defined. > > --caused some concerns within the IESG and it will take some time to > discuss this subject. > Would that be possible to know what these concerns are? Thanks. Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33509.1ECD2708 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex,

>
>  I brought the L2VPN charter to the IESG last week.
>
>  Item 6 in the list of tasks the WG is undertaking--
>
>   6. Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using
>      dissimilar attachment circuits. This topic will be explored only
>      after the basic L2VPN services (VPWS, VPLS, and IP L2VPN) are
>      defined.
> 
>  --caused some concerns within the IESG and it will take some time to
>  discuss this subject.
>

Would that be possible to know what these concerns are? Thanks.
 
Hamid.
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C33509.1ECD2708-- From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 18 10:10:56 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08741 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5IEAT411738 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:10:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19SdSi-00022m-K5 for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:58:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA07346 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SdQR-0004tB-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:56:35 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19SdQR-0004t8-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:56:35 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Sd9S-0001GQ-R8; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:39:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Scsw-0000Jq-Cp for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:21:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05601 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Scqf-0004Re-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:19:37 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Scqe-0004QL-00 for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:19:37 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h5IDKqX25274; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hamid Ould-Brahim" To: Alex Zinin Cc: l2vpn Subject: RE: L2VPN charter discussed by IESG last week Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C3359C.70885DC2" Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3359C.70885DC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex, > > > Would that be possible to know what these concerns are? Thanks. > > The high-order bit is whether this work belongs within the IETF or > not. We're talking about details now. More later. > I think the charter mentioned the term "Interworking" in the statement below and that may have caused some misunderstanding. "Interworking of IP devices Interworking of IP devices connected to an IP-only L2 VPN using dissimilar attachment circuits." It should be stressed that this is not l2vpn interworking in a sense that the wg will not be defining an interworking function between two dissimilar layer-2 attachment circuits. In fact if it is not too late, I suggest to remove bullet 6, and just leave 3) which includes already an IP-only communication between point to point circuits of (dissimilar attachment circuits). Bullet 3) says: "3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point- to-point circuit." For me this statement is enough...(no need for further clarification). Hamid. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3359C.70885DC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Alex,

>
> > Would that be possible to know what these concerns are? Thanks.
>
> The high-order bit is whether this work belongs within the IETF or
> not. We're talking about details now. More later.
>

I think the charter mentioned the term "Interworking" in
the statement below and that may have caused some misunderstanding.
 
"Interworking of IP devices Interworking of IP devices connected
to an IP-only L2 VPN using dissimilar attachment circuits."
 
It should be stressed that this is not l2vpn interworking in a
sense that the wg will not be defining an interworking function
between two dissimilar layer-2 attachment circuits. In fact if it
is not too late, I suggest to remove bullet 6, and just leave 3)
which includes already an IP-only communication between point
to point circuits of (dissimilar attachment circuits). Bullet 3)
says:
 
"3. IP-only L2 VPNs--L2 service across an IP and an MPLS-enabled
IP network, allowing standard IP devices to communicate with each
other as if they were connected to a common LAN segment or a point-
to-point circuit."
 
For me this statement is enough...(no need for further clarification).
 
Hamid.
 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3359C.70885DC2-- From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 10:55:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28921 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UEsWs13006 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:54:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X036-0003Nh-MR for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:54:32 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28877 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X02a-0003KJ-GX; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:54:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X01p-0003H2-3v for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:53:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28767; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X01V-0001U6-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:52:53 -0400 Received: from mail.masergy.com ([64.47.12.2] helo=m-va-bsod03.add0.masergy.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X01D-0001Sa-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:52:35 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: agendas for the Vienna wg meetings Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:49:34 -0400 Message-ID: <6B25E083A064374CA3D2FAB305CFAF7A03C4E3@m-va-bsod03.add0.masergy.com> Thread-Topic: agendas for the Vienna wg meetings Thread-Index: AcM+2/bO3E2e/3rbTzmrZliGjAaDxwAOPJfQ From: "Rick Wilder" To: "lidefeng" , , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Defeng and all participants, There will be two meetings in Vienna to address L2 and L3 VPN work. I expect the agendas for these two meetings to be posted to the ppvpn, l2vpn, and l3vpn lists by the end of this week.=20 I am sorry you have been having difficulties with the mail list. People at Nortel have been notified and are looking into this. Anyone with specific error messages or debug information documenting a problem with the list can forward it to John Pugh [johnpugh@nortelnetworks.com]. He has offered to try and help. Rick -----Original Message----- From: lidefeng [mailto:lidefeng@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:46 AM To: l3vpn@ietf.org; l2vpn@ietf.org; ppvpn@nortelnetworks.com Subject: How about the agenda for the 57th IETF ppvpn wg meeting ? Hi, all The 57th IETF meeting is forthcoming,but I don't know the agenda of PPVPN wg yet, and I wrote e-mails to the maillist and some important individuals to inquire the arrangement,but they are always rejected by the server or something called Lyris Listmanager, I don't know the reason. I just registered to the maillist of l3vpn and l2vpn today. and I have a concern about the operation of vpn relevant wg, I wonder what happened to ppvpn wg,and what is the arrangement in the following future. Who can clarify the question? TIA & Regards Sincerely Yours Defeng Li Huawei Technologies +86-10-82882343 lidefeng@huawei.com From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 17:07:54 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16402 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UL7Qh04356 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5ry-000185-2f for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16375 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X5rv-0004Mb-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:23 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X5rp-0004MD-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5rY-0000tE-4y; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19WtgF-0000Wb-FU for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:06:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04899; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 04:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WtOm-0004Pj-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 03:48:28 -0400 Received: from [61.144.161.2] (helo=mta0.huawei.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19WtOb-0004P9-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 03:48:17 -0400 Received: from l04955 (mta0.huawei.com [172.17.1.62]) by mta0.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0HHA00AMHAVVKC@mta0.huawei.com>; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:45:36 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:45:47 +0800 From: lidefeng Subject: How about the agenda for the 57th IETF ppvpn wg meeting ? To: l3vpn@ietf.org, l2vpn@ietf.org, ppvpn@nortelnetworks.com Message-id: <003801c33edb$9eae7860$07436e0a@HUAWEI.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, all The 57th IETF meeting is forthcoming,but I don't know the agenda of PPVPN wg yet, and I wrote e-mails to the maillist and some important individuals to inquire the arrangement,but they are always rejected by the server or something called Lyris Listmanager, I don't know the reason. I just registered to the maillist of l3vpn and l2vpn today. and I have a concern about the operation of vpn relevant wg, I wonder what happened to ppvpn wg,and what is the arrangement in the following future. Who can clarify the question? TIA & Regards Sincerely Yours Defeng Li Huawei Technologies +86-10-82882343 lidefeng@huawei.com From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jun 30 17:52:59 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16401 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5UL7Qg04350 for l2vpn-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5ry-000184-2E for l2vpn-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16376 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X5rv-0004Mc-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:24 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X5rp-0004ME-00 for l2vpn-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X5rY-0000uG-F5; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:07:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19X365-0007Pw-Lz for l2vpn@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:09:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09159; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X362-0003Ei-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:09:46 -0400 Received: from pmesmtp01.wcom.com ([199.249.20.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19X35r-0003E0-00; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:09:35 -0400 Received: from pmismtp03.wcomnet.com ([166.38.62.38]) by firewall.wcom.com (Iplanet MTA 5.2) with ESMTP id <0HHB0070S3IGW2@firewall.wcom.com>; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:03:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pmismtp03.wcomnet.com by pmismtp03.wcomnet.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.7 (built May 7 2002)) with SMTP id <0HHB00J013CRB8@pmismtp03.wcomnet.com>; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:03:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dmcdysan ([166.32.199.64]) by pmismtp03.wcomnet.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.7 (built May 7 2002)) with SMTP id <0HHB00J9W3IADI@pmismtp03.wcomnet.com>; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:03:47 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:03:50 -0400 From: Dave McDysan Subject: MPLS 2003 Conference - Submission Deadline Extended to July 3rd To: ppvpn@nortelnetworks.com, l2vpn@ietf.org, l3vpn@ietf.org, Mpls , Pwe3 , Ccamp Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE The MPLS 2003 Conference will be held in Washington D.C. from October= 26 through October 28. This year=92s conference will include but is not = limited to topics such as: - MPLS as a convergence technology - MPLS network management and operational issues - Provisioning and migration strategies - MPLS in multi-AS networks - L2 VPNs (pseudo-wire, VPLS, and other) - L3 VPNs (BGP/MPLS, IPSec interworking, virtual routers, and other) - Scalability and performance - Traffic engineering and QoS - Network processor architectures for next generation applications - Testing MPLS applications and performance - Network security - Disaster recovery - Reliability and graceful restart techniques - Optical Integration and challenges The Program Committee of MPLS 2003 is soliciting presentation proposa= ls for this conference. If you wish to suggest a particular topic or a contribution please send a one page long proposal, including speaker= =92s contact details to the attention of the Technical Program Committee a= t TPC@mpls2003.com by July 3, 2003 (this will= be the last extension.) See www.mpls2003.com for m= ore details. The program committee is looking for original and unpublished work to continue the tradition initiated by this conference in 1998 of coveri= ng cutting-edge topics. Presentations from the vendor, service provider = and user community are solicited on new technologies and operational experience.