From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Mon Aug 1 23:13:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BC621F8CBC for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 23:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L0tZG0dK8W7h for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 23:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E6621F8CBE for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2011 23:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPA00FDVEMX1B@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:13:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPA00FRYELSJ8@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:13:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ACV24389; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:13:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.59) by szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:13:40 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([fe80::75b7:3db9:fedc:a56d%13]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:13:43 +0800 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:13:41 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.62] To: "draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org" Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041435F9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pm2fmjpzjkzXRxixNQK6cg)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-index: AQHMUNtTnXzUjI0upkOWUrqGs3dHQw== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:13:39 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_pm2fmjpzjkzXRxixNQK6cg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello authors, During the 81th IETF meeting, it seemed there are ambiguities with regard to the supported types of E-Tree service frames in the E-Tree requirements. To align with the MEF standard (i.e., the specifications in Section 6.5.3 and 6.6 of MEF 10.2), I suggest the following E-Tree requirements should be added: 1) E-Tree Service Frame MAY be untagged, priority tagged, or contain an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag. 2) If the E-Tree Service Frame contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve VLAN ID in this Customer VLAN Tag. 3) If the E-Tree Service Frame is priority tagged or contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the CoS (Class of Service). Best regards Yuanlong --Boundary_(ID_pm2fmjpzjkzXRxixNQK6cg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hello authors,

 

During the 81th IETF meeting, it seemed there are ambiguities with regard to the supported types of E-Tree service frames

in the E-Tree requirements. To align with the MEF standard (i.e., the specifications in Section 6.5.3 and 6.6 of MEF 10.2),

I suggest the following E-Tree requirements should be added:
1) E-Tree Service Frame MAY be untagged, priority tagged, or contain an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag.
2) If the E-Tree Service Frame contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve

    VLAN ID in this Customer VLAN Tag.
3) If the E-Tree Service Frame is priority tagged or contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST

    be able to preserve the CoS (Class of Service).

 

Best regards
Yuanlong

 

--Boundary_(ID_pm2fmjpzjkzXRxixNQK6cg)-- From josh.rogers@twcable.com Tue Aug 2 07:29:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6077E11E807D for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 07:29:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6pozDZxcJD4Q for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 07:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw02.twcable.com (cdpipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.59.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5807D11E807C for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 07:29:53 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.10 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,306,1309752000"; d="scan'208";a="242829773" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.10]) by cdpipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 02 Aug 2011 10:27:25 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS08.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.36]) by PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.10]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:29:56 -0400 From: "Rogers, Josh" To: Jiangyuanlong , "draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org" Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:29:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-Topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-Index: AcxRIKZ8YGTMQefCSaOpQtrJ5r1qFA== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041435F9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:29:54 -0000 Would it be to restrictive to change #2 to: 2) Solution must maintain E-Tree Service frame transparently, if containing= a IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the= VLAN ID in the Customer VLAN Tag, and if not containing a IEEE 802.1Q Cust= omer VLAN Tag, lack of Customer VLAN tag must be preserved as well. I imagine that could be worded slightly better, but the notion of preservin= g the frame's Customer tag (or lack of) is something I'd like to see captur= ed. I've seen so many implementations called 'ETREE' that disagree with th= is, however I'd like to hear from others whether this is agreeable or not, = and if not, why? From: Jiangyuanlong > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 02:13:41 -0400 To: "draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org" > Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Hello authors, During the 81th IETF meeting, it seemed there are ambiguities with regard t= o the supported types of E-Tree service frames in the E-Tree requirements. To align with the MEF standard (i.e., the speci= fications in Section 6.5.3 and 6.6 of MEF 10.2), I suggest the following E-Tree requirements should be added: 1) E-Tree Service Frame MAY be untagged, priority tagged, or contain an IEE= E 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag. 2) If the E-Tree Service Frame contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, t= he solution MUST be able to preserve VLAN ID in this Customer VLAN Tag. 3) If the E-Tree Service Frame is priority tagged or contains an IEEE 802.1= Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the CoS (Class of Service). Best regards Yuanlong ________________________________ This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From DanielC@orckit.com Tue Aug 2 10:39:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAC811E808F for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.376 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DM-6hy1Q4mFq for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlvmail1.orckit.com (tlvmail1.orckit.com [213.31.203.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C85811E807F for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1.1.40.5 ([1.1.40.5]) by tlvmail1.corrigent.com ([1.1.40.5]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 17:42:25 +0000 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 20:39:41 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Message-ID: <326f01cc513b$8a336765$05280101@corrigent.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Thread-Topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-Index: AQHMUNtTnXzUjI0upkOWUrqGs3dHQ5UJ1V1Y Importance: normal From: "Daniel Cohn" To: "Jiangyuanlong" , MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 17:39:41 -0000 Hi Yuanlong,=0A= =0A= Before discussing the technical aspects, could you pls explain to which = document you propose we add the suggested text? The WG charter?=0A= =0A= Daniel=0A= =0A= Sent from mobile device=0A= =0A= Jiangyuanlong wrote:=0A= =0A= Hello authors, During the 81th IETF meeting, it seemed there are ambiguities with = regard to the supported types of E-Tree service frames in the E-Tree requirements. To align with the MEF standard (i.e., the = specifications in Section 6.5.3 and 6.6 of MEF 10.2), I suggest the following E-Tree requirements should be added: 1) E-Tree Service Frame MAY be untagged, priority tagged, or contain an = IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag. 2) If the E-Tree Service Frame contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN = Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve VLAN ID in this Customer VLAN Tag. 3) If the E-Tree Service Frame is priority tagged or contains an IEEE = 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the CoS (Class of Service). Best regards Yuanlong From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Tue Aug 2 19:06:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B86F11E80BB for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:06:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E5cmfPu1dRQv for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4CFA11E80EA for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPB00MU9XUEBB@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:06:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPB00FMXXU7L9@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:06:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml207-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ACZ50601; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:06:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.93) by szxeml207-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:06:10 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.93]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:06:12 +0800 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 02:06:11 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: RE: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.62] To: "Rogers, Josh" , "draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org" Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041439E2@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-index: AQHMUNtTnXzUjI0upkOWUrqGs3dHQ5UJGXiAgAE/ZjA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041435F9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 02:06:06 -0000 Hi Josh, I also prefer to preserve the service transparency, though the statement seems more restrictive than MEF 10.2 (where the preservation of C-VLAN ID and CoS are configurable parameters rather than mandating). Can more service providers clarify their requirements on the service transparency? Thanks Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Rogers, Josh [mailto:josh.rogers@twcable.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:30 PM To: Jiangyuanlong; draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Would it be to restrictive to change #2 to: 2) Solution must maintain E-Tree Service frame transparently, if containing a IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the VLAN ID in the Customer VLAN Tag, and if not containing a IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, lack of Customer VLAN tag must be preserved as well. I imagine that could be worded slightly better, but the notion of preserving the frame's Customer tag (or lack of) is something I'd like to see captured. I've seen so many implementations called 'ETREE' that disagree with this, however I'd like to hear from others whether this is agreeable or not, and if not, why? From: Jiangyuanlong > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 02:13:41 -0400 To: "draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org" > Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Hello authors, During the 81th IETF meeting, it seemed there are ambiguities with regard to the supported types of E-Tree service frames in the E-Tree requirements. To align with the MEF standard (i.e., the specifications in Section 6.5.3 and 6.6 of MEF 10.2), I suggest the following E-Tree requirements should be added: 1) E-Tree Service Frame MAY be untagged, priority tagged, or contain an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag. 2) If the E-Tree Service Frame contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve VLAN ID in this Customer VLAN Tag. 3) If the E-Tree Service Frame is priority tagged or contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the CoS (Class of Service). Best regards Yuanlong ________________________________ This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Tue Aug 2 19:12:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B21F11E8081 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nb+MJ+E23meb for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FA611E8073 for ; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 19:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPB00BGJY3S3H@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:11:52 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPB002AMY2IVO@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:11:52 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ACV92372; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:11:52 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:11:45 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.32]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 10:11:51 +0800 Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 02:11:51 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: RE: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree In-reply-to: <326f01cc513b$8a336765$05280101@corrigent.com> X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.62] To: Daniel Cohn , "draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org" Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041439F7@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-index: AQHMUNtTnXzUjI0upkOWUrqGs3dHQ5UJ1V1YgACM40A= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <326f01cc513b$8a336765$05280101@corrigent.com> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 02:12:23 -0000 Hi Daniel, Just as the mail-to list shows, the texts were suggested for draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt. I don't think we need to change the re-charter texts. Cheers Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 1:40 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt@tools.ietf.org Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Hi Yuanlong, Before discussing the technical aspects, could you pls explain to which document you propose we add the suggested text? The WG charter? Daniel Sent from mobile device Jiangyuanlong wrote: Hello authors, During the 81th IETF meeting, it seemed there are ambiguities with regard to the supported types of E-Tree service frames in the E-Tree requirements. To align with the MEF standard (i.e., the specifications in Section 6.5.3 and 6.6 of MEF 10.2), I suggest the following E-Tree requirements should be added: 1) E-Tree Service Frame MAY be untagged, priority tagged, or contain an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag. 2) If the E-Tree Service Frame contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve VLAN ID in this Customer VLAN Tag. 3) If the E-Tree Service Frame is priority tagged or contains an IEEE 802.1Q Customer VLAN Tag, the solution MUST be able to preserve the CoS (Class of Service). Best regards Yuanlong From DanielC@orckit.com Wed Aug 3 00:14:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C53711E80B8 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 00:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ysr41ZpksfnS for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 00:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlvmail1.orckit.com (tlvmail1.orckit.com [213.31.203.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F3F11E808E for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 00:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:14:37 +0300 Message-ID: <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306ED872F@tlvmail1> In-reply-to: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041439F7@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-Index: AQHMUNtTnXzUjI0upkOWUrqGs3dHQ5UJ1V1YgACM40CAAFX28A== References: <326f01cc513b$8a336765$05280101@corrigent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041439F7@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: "Daniel Cohn" To: "Jiangyuanlong" , Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 07:14:48 -0000 U29ycnksIGRpZG4ndCBzZWUgdGhlIGUtbWFpbCByZWNpcGllbnQgbGlzdCBmcm9tIG15IHBob25l LiANCg0KREMNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEppYW5neXVhbmxv 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bHMgZXhwbGFpbiB0byB3aGljaCBkb2N1bWVudCB5b3UgcHJvcG9zZSB3ZSBhZGQgdGhlIHN1Z2dl c3RlZCB0ZXh0PyBUaGUgV0cgY2hhcnRlcj8NCg0KRGFuaWVsDQoNClNlbnQgZnJvbSBtb2JpbGUg ZGV2aWNlDQoNCkppYW5neXVhbmxvbmcgPGppYW5neXVhbmxvbmdAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6 DQoNCkhlbGxvIGF1dGhvcnMsDQoNCg0KDQpEdXJpbmcgdGhlIDgxdGggSUVURiBtZWV0aW5nLCBp dCBzZWVtZWQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGFtYmlndWl0aWVzIHdpdGggcmVnYXJkIHRvIHRoZSBzdXBwb3J0 ZWQgdHlwZXMgb2YgRS1UcmVlIHNlcnZpY2UgZnJhbWVzDQoNCmluIHRoZSBFLVRyZWUgcmVxdWly ZW1lbnRzLiBUbyBhbGlnbiB3aXRoIHRoZSBNRUYgc3RhbmRhcmQgKGkuZS4sIHRoZSBzcGVjaWZp Y2F0aW9ucyBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDYuNS4zIGFuZCA2LjYgb2YgTUVGIDEwLjIpLA0KDQpJIHN1Z2dl c3QgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBFLVRyZWUgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBhZGRlZDoNCjEp IEUtVHJlZSBTZXJ2aWNlIEZyYW1lIE1BWSBiZSB1bnRhZ2dlZCwgcHJpb3JpdHkgdGFnZ2VkLCBv ciBjb250YWluIGFuIElFRUUgODAyLjFRIEN1c3RvbWVyIFZMQU4gVGFnLg0KMikgSWYgdGhlIEUt VHJlZSBTZXJ2aWNlIEZyYW1lIGNvbnRhaW5zIGFuIElFRUUgODAyLjFRIEN1c3RvbWVyIFZMQU4g VGFnLCB0aGUgc29sdXRpb24gTVVTVCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIHByZXNlcnZlDQoNCiAgICBWTEFOIElE IGluIHRoaXMgQ3VzdG9tZXIgVkxBTiBUYWcuDQozKSBJZiB0aGUgRS1UcmVlIFNlcnZpY2UgRnJh bWUgaXMgcHJpb3JpdHkgdGFnZ2VkIG9yIGNvbnRhaW5zIGFuIElFRUUgODAyLjFRIEN1c3RvbWVy IFZMQU4gVGFnLCB0aGUgc29sdXRpb24gTVVTVA0KDQogICAgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBwcmVzZXJ2ZSB0 aGUgQ29TIChDbGFzcyBvZiBTZXJ2aWNlKS4NCg0KDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcw0KWXVhbmxvbmcN Cg0KDQo= From Manuel.Paul@telekom.de Wed Aug 3 07:49:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4EF21F8B78 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvoVhK8AEeDv for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcmail83.telekom.de (tcmail83.telekom.de [62.225.183.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90F121F8B55 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from he101251.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.125.92.154]) by tcmail81.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 03 Aug 2011 16:49:38 +0200 Received: from HE101452.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([169.254.2.253]) by HE101251.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([fe80::e428:2144:dcc5:bcce%15]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:49:37 +0200 From: To: , , Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:49:34 +0200 Subject: RE: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-Topic: Further Requirements Proposed for E-Tree Thread-Index: AQHMUNtTnXzUjI0upkOWUrqGs3dHQ5UJGXiAgAE/ZjCAANWnwA== Message-ID: <9435EDACD941174099E143BCA2BCD615F7AD0C87B4@HE101452.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041435F9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041439E2@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: 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YWlsIGlzIHN0cmljdGx5IHByb2hpYml0ZWQNCj4gYW5kIG1heSBiZSB1bmxhd2Z1bC4gSWYgeW91 IGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgdGhpcyBFLW1haWwgaW4gZXJyb3IsIHBsZWFzZQ0KPiBub3RpZnkgdGhl IHNlbmRlciBpbW1lZGlhdGVseSBhbmQgcGVybWFuZW50bHkgZGVsZXRlIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBh bmQgYW55DQo+IGNvcHkgb2YgdGhpcyBFLW1haWwgYW5kIGFueSBwcmludG91dC4NCg== From N.Leymann@telekom.de Thu Aug 4 01:57:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1ED21F8AD2 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:57:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YWym-Ih3JzP3 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcmail83.telekom.de (tcmail83.telekom.de [62.225.183.131]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8E421F8BB2 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from he111527.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.125.90.86]) by tcmail81.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 04 Aug 2011 10:57:32 +0200 Received: from HE111543.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([169.254.4.168]) by HE111527.EMEA1.CDS.T-INTERNAL.COM ([2002:7cd:5a56::7cd:5a56]) with mapi; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:57:28 +0200 From: To: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:57:26 +0200 Subject: MPLS 2011 - October 16-19, Washington DC Thread-Topic: MPLS 2011 - October 16-19, Washington DC Thread-Index: AcxShIidguvow9/GTVKfodVuXx4SKg== Message-ID: <9762ACF04FA26B4388476841256BDE0201159203B288@HE111543.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Accept-Language: de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 08:57:31 -0000 Hi, Registration for MPLS 2011 (October 16-19, Omni Shoreham Hotel in Washingto= n), the 14th annual International Conference on MPLS and related new techno= logies is now open at: http://www.mpls2011.com/registration/attendees.htm MPLS 2011 will include an extensive four day program consisting of tutorial= s, technical sessions, panels, and exhibits. The key topics to be discussed= at this year's conference include: Scaling MPLS, Data Centers, MPLS Transp= ort Profile, Cloud Computing, Future Networks, Mobile Backhaul, Resiliency,= Network Management and Performance, Multi-layer and Optical Networks. In addition, there will be two panel discussions on current topics. The complete program is available at: http://www.mpls2011.com/program/technical_sessions.htm The event will be followed by a Public Interop demonstration. There will al= so be an exhibit floor, where leading network equipment vendors will showca= se their new offerings, the list of current sponsors is available at: http://www.mpls2011.com/sponsors/sponsors.htm The conference hotel is the Omni Shoreham Hotel in Washington DC. Please note that there are only a limited number of rooms available this ye= ar at a reduced rate. Please make reservations at: http://www.mpls2011.com/hotel.htm Looking forward to seeing you at MPLS 2011! Regards, Nic From giles.heron@gmail.com Wed Aug 10 18:57:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA7521F863A for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFYRulJc5Gew for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2613C21F8549 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iye1 with SMTP id 1so205845iye.27 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:57:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :thread-index:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Io15RHAhd95TlXuMq+RhtrT2MZGfNoAkpbiJgdVmOWI=; b=bGrJmN3yOIB2cavJC+/jY+Lui2m15omWIYJQ9aXcU2wleogyBwUTJHyEzp9MaKMoH7 cDb4tDJ0Olkri5E0mokRxS5rrRw4p18FmPA/UWE5Xj0NCwMfdN3STIG5IYI4fr2flM3f ZJFbJnLTpSJwDX/URRTKoowNaGMQzCKCZv304= Received: by 10.43.50.72 with SMTP id vd8mr8886809icb.433.1313027855052; Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.70.235.32] (dhcp-171-70-235-32.cisco.com [171.70.235.32]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ie4sm2311125icc.8.2011.08.10.18.57.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:57:34 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.30.0.110427 Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:59:36 +0100 Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 From: Giles Heron To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Thread-Index: AcxXylIjgXEqzUiJqke7Ya1jdjLYrA== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:57:06 -0000 All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Sun Aug 14 19:25:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9519211E809A for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n0jYB53BX03h for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84AA11E808A for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPY00M7M6RTB8@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:26:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LPY00K3Z6RS5K@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:26:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADE32504; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:26:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:26:15 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.226.192]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:26:16 +0800 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 02:26:04 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.106] To: Giles Heron Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmA== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 02:25:36 -0000 Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From DanielC@orckit.com Mon Aug 15 15:40:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67C821F8CB1 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.246, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JLypCElb4rDW for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlvmail1.orckit.com (tlvmail1.orckit.com [213.31.203.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D337421F8CAF for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 01:41:31 +0300 Message-ID: <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> In-reply-to: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRw References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: "Daniel Cohn" To: "Jiangyuanlong" , "Giles Heron" Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:40:48 -0000 Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Mon Aug 15 18:58:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD46B21F8B7E for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o5kAlpKIqnYy for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15A921F8B77 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ000L1A06702@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:58:56 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ0008GU05JRB@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:58:55 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADF08768; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:58:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:58:52 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.226.192]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:58:54 +0800 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 01:58:34 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) In-reply-to: <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.106] To: Daniel Cohn , Giles Heron Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1A= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: EMLl G7xF HUex KIKW Ofyh RlGM SFxO TVea UlfH VDP9 VkT/ dduF egeO ek0X enw+ frBZ; 3; ZABhAG4AaQBlAGwAYwBAAG8AcgBjAGsAaQB0AC4AYwBvAG0AOwBnAGkAbABlAHMALgBoAGUAcgBvAG4AQABnAG0AYQBpAGwALgBjAG8AbQA7AGwAMgB2AHAAbgBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {E1CEB1D5-138C-4A95-A9A6-33F6A352C641}; agBpAGEAbgBnAHkAdQBhAG4AbABvAG4AZwBAAGgAdQBhAHcAZQBpAC4AYwBvAG0A; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 01:58:48 GMT; UgBFADoAIABMADIAVgBQAE4AIABNAGkAbgB1AHQAZQBzACAALQAgAEkARQBUAEYAOAAxACAAKABHAGkAbABlAHMAIABIAGUAcgBvAG4AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {E1CEB1D5-138C-4A95-A9A6-33F6A352C641} X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 01:58:11 -0000 Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin. Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From DanielC@orckit.com Tue Aug 16 06:41:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BC321F8B14 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 06:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.363 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.363 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.236, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxypXpPTrpJA for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 06:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlvmail1.orckit.com (tlvmail1.orckit.com [213.31.203.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B309621F8B15 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 06:41:43 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:42:40 +0300 Message-ID: <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1> In-reply-to: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUA== References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: "Daniel Cohn" To: "Jiangyuanlong" , "Giles Heron" Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:41:48 -0000 Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Aug 16 10:37:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5063911E80EB for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:37:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQ5IW-23bmYP for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8139711E80DD for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.10]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id p7GHble2003670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:37:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.110]) by usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id p7GHbkC8016387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:37:47 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.145]) by USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.110]) with mapi; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:37:46 -0500 From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" To: Daniel Cohn , Jiangyuanlong , Giles Heron Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:37:45 -0500 Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQ Message-ID: <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1> In-Reply-To: <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.10 Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:37:05 -0000 Daniel, There are lots of service providers using different technologies inside the= ir network (QinQ, PBB and VPLS technologies). ENNI stands for External Netw= ork Network Interface not usually used between different technology domains= .=20 Also as I said in the IETF L2VPN session, one or two VLAN service tag(s) ar= e usually mapped at the border between domains to PW service labels (for VP= LS) or to ISIDs (for PBB) mainly because service providers want to keep VLA= N assignment independent between different QinQ domains so that each can sc= ale as close to 4K as possible. This means that one or two tags are usually removed as you go in other doma= ins. So adding another one for ETREE does not impact the number of VLANs be= ing looked up in the PBB BEBs/VPLS PEs.=20 Even if a transparent service does not touch the C/S VLANs in the packet (e= .g. the port is used to map to VSI) only the PW label/ISID are used for VSI= identification in VPLS PEs/PBB BEBs. There is no 3 VLAN look up required a= t any point in time. Hence I think the procedure outlined below by Yuanlong will work across all= these different domains (QinQ-VPLS-PBB) saving us some headaches of implem= enting and deploying two different procedures for the same service type.=20 Florin -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D= aniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From lizhong.jin@zte.com.cn Tue Aug 16 19:21:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997E711E8073 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:21:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.175, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HuuOsiXz1v7G for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A97621F883A for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.99] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 13132577109098; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 10:10:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.20] by [192.168.168.15] with StormMail ESMTP id 94545.3019871460; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:58:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse01.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id p7H1vwfj012607; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:57:58 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from lizhong.jin@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: To: l2vpn@ietf.org, florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com, jiangyuanlong@huawei.com, giles.heron@gmail.com, DanielC@orckit.com Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: From: lizhong.jin@zte.com.cn Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:57:38 +0800 X-MIMETrack: S/MIME Sign by Notes Client on JinLiZhong127666/user/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-17 09:57:49, Serialize by Notes Client on JinLiZhong127666/user/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-08-17 09:57:49, Serialize complete at 2011-08-17 09:57:49, S/MIME Sign failed at 2011-08-17 09:57:49: The cryptographic key was not found, Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2011-08-17 09:57:59, Serialize complete at 2011-08-17 09:57:59 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 000AC9A4482578EF_=" X-MAIL: mse01.zte.com.cn p7H1vwfj012607 X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 02:21:47 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 000AC9A4482578EF_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi all, Since VPLS has been widely deployed, backward compatible with existing VPLS-PE for E-Tree is very important, as also said in section 5.3 of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt. Three VLAN (not 3 VLAN lookup) solution requires every PE in E-Tree network to be updated both software and hardwire (or microcode), and such new deployment will surely cost much. Lizhong > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:37:45 -0500 > From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" > > To: Daniel Cohn , Jiangyuanlong > , Giles Heron > Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) > Message-ID: > <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc. > alcatel-lucent.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Daniel, > > There are lots of service providers using different technologies > inside their network (QinQ, PBB and VPLS technologies). ENNI stands > for External Network Network Interface not usually used between > different technology domains. > > Also as I said in the IETF L2VPN session, one or two VLAN service > tag(s) are usually mapped at the border between domains to PW > service labels (for VPLS) or to ISIDs (for PBB) mainly because > service providers want to keep VLAN assignment independent between > different QinQ domains so that each can scale as close to 4K as possible. > > This means that one or two tags are usually removed as you go in > other domains. So adding another one for ETREE does not impact the > number of VLANs being looked up in the PBB BEBs/VPLS PEs. > > Even if a transparent service does not touch the C/S VLANs in the > packet (e.g. the port is used to map to VSI) only the PW label/ISID > are used for VSI identification in VPLS PEs/PBB BEBs. There is no 3 > VLAN look up required at any point in time. > > Hence I think the procedure outlined below by Yuanlong will work > across all these different domains (QinQ-VPLS-PBB) saving us some > headaches of implementing and deploying two different procedures for > the same service type. > > Florin > > -----Original Message----- > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Daniel Cohn > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM > To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) > > Hi, > > That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree > E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet > and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. > > See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. > > Regards, > > DC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM > To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) > > Daniel, > > MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) > > In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is > required: > 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently > connected them into the same VSI; > 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW > label; > 3) Using PBB encapsulation. > Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. > > Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by > Florin. > Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in > draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: > 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs > [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is > supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. > 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs > [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - > don't see the difference. > 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working > as a single PW. > [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a > single PW. > > Regards > Yuanlong > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM > To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) > > Hi Yuanlong and all, > > S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you > want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs > (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), > draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI > (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are > several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. > > Regards, > > Daniel > > -----Original Message----- > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Jiangyuanlong > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM > To: Giles Heron > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) > > Hi Giles and all, > > Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access > to the Internet. > Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be > re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in > MEF. > > [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. > MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of > the MEF itself. > > Correction: > [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. > MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of > the MEF itself. > > > Thanks > Yuanlong > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > From: Giles Heron > To: > Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > All, > > The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt > > Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as > possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made > until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. > > Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder > > Nabil & Giles > > > > > ------------------------------ > > -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. --=_alternative 000AC9A4482578EF_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi all,
Since VPLS has been widely deployed, backward compatible with existing VPLS-PE for E-Tree is very important, as also said in section 5.3 of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt. Three VLAN (not 3 VLAN lookup) solution requires every PE in E-Tree network to be updated both software and hardwire (or microcode), and such new deployment will surely cost much.

Lizhong


>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:37:45 -0500
> From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)"
>    <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> To: Daniel Cohn <DanielC@orckit.com>, Jiangyuanlong
>    <jiangyuanlong@huawei.com>,   Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron)
> Message-ID:
>    <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.
> alcatel-lucent.com>
>    
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Daniel,
>
> There are lots of service providers using different technologies
> inside their network (QinQ, PBB and VPLS technologies). ENNI stands
> for External Network Network Interface not usually used between
> different technology domains.
>
> Also as I said in the IETF L2VPN session, one or two VLAN service
> tag(s) are usually mapped at the border between domains to PW
> service labels (for VPLS) or to ISIDs (for PBB) mainly because
> service providers want to keep VLAN assignment independent between
> different QinQ domains so that each can scale as close to 4K as possible.
>
> This means that one or two tags are usually removed as you go in
> other domains. So adding another one for ETREE does not impact the
> number of VLANs being looked up in the PBB BEBs/VPLS PEs.
>
> Even if a transparent service does not touch the C/S VLANs in the
> packet (e.g. the port is used to map to VSI) only the PW label/ISID
> are used for VSI identification in VPLS PEs/PBB BEBs. There is no 3
> VLAN look up required at any point in time.
>
> Hence I think the procedure outlined below by Yuanlong will work
> across all these different domains (QinQ-VPLS-PBB) saving us some
> headaches of implementing and deploying two different procedures for
> the same service type.
>
> Florin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Cohn
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM
> To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron)
>
> Hi,
>
> That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree
> E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet
> and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements.
>
> See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution.
>
> Regards,
>
> DC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM
> To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron)
>
> Daniel,
>
> MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;)
>
> In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is
> required:
> 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently
> connected them into the same VSI;
> 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW
> label;
> 3) Using PBB encapsulation.
> Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work.
>
> Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by
> Florin.
> Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in
> draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01:
> 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs
> [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is
> supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs.
> 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs
> [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) -
> don't see the difference.
> 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working
> as a single PW.
> [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a
> single PW.
>
> Regards
> Yuanlong
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM
> To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron)
>
> Hi Yuanlong and all,
>
> S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you
> want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs
> (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements),
> draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI
> (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are
> several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames.
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Jiangyuanlong
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM
> To: Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron)
>
> Hi Giles and all,
>
> Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access
> to the Internet.
> Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be
> re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in
> MEF.
>
> [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself.
> MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access.  It's not a requirement of
> the MEF itself.
>
> Correction:
> [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself.
> MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access.  It's not a requirement of
> the MEF itself.
>
>
> Thanks
> Yuanlong
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
> To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
> Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81
> Message-ID: <CA68F618.CB77%giles.heron@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="US-ASCII"
>
> All,
>
> The draft minutes from Quebec are available at:
>     http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt
>
> Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as
> possible if you'd to see any corrections.  Changes can only be made
> until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible.
>
> Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder
>
> Nabil & Giles
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> 

--------------------------------------------------------
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--=_alternative 000AC9A4482578EF_=-- From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Tue Aug 16 23:42:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B4F11E808C for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:42:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mX11YJRcp5gr for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BA411E8086 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ20029N7ZZVA@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:43:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ200EI27Z8SA@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:43:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADG12288; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:43:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:43:04 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.226.192]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:43:09 +0800 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 06:42:41 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) In-reply-to: <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.106] To: Daniel Cohn , Giles Heron , "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AtF1 A4CU BWij FOaL F4pH VsiE bXzQ b2Xx cgaE c6LV dVcT e0pf kcaI pjkw s5Qj tgfc; 4; ZABhAG4AaQBlAGwAYwBAAG8AcgBjAGsAaQB0AC4AYwBvAG0AOwBmAGwAbwByAGkAbgAuAGIAYQBsAHUAcwBAAGEAbABjAGEAdABlAGwALQBsAHUAYwBlAG4AdAAuAGMAbwBtADsAZwBpAGwAZQBzAC4AaABlAHIAbwBuAEAAZwBtAGEAaQBsAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBsADIAdgBwAG4AQABpAGUAdABmAC4AbwByAGcA; Sosha1_v1; 7; {878BF0A8-BEA8-432D-B09E-B05BCBA34544}; agBpAGEAbgBnAHkAdQBhAG4AbABvAG4AZwBAAGgAdQBhAHcAZQBpAC4AYwBvAG0A; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 06:43:01 GMT; UgBFADoAIABMADIAVgBQAE4AIABNAGkAbgB1AHQAZQBzACAALQAgAEkARQBUAEYAOAAxACAAKABHAGkAbABlAHMAIABIAGUAcgBvAG4AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {878BF0A8-BEA8-432D-B09E-B05BCBA34544} X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 06:42:41 -0000 Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases? See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin. Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW. [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From RafiR@orckit.com Thu Aug 18 03:31:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8AB21F87C2 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:31:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z-PEEu417cI2 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tlvmail1.orckit.com (tlvmail1.orckit.com [213.31.203.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73CC21F8760 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 x-cr-puzzleid: {386E8059-CB6F-401A-B6C0-CA9E10B0C51E} MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable x-cr-hashedpuzzle: lvw= Djhs EgF4 IrZM PiTA R183 TDCd Vb+L X6Pz YuMA aYZK gmdC htM2 h4Uf nSEC styM; 4; ZgBsAG8AcgBpAG4ALgBiAGEAbAB1AHMAQABhAGwAYwBhAHQAZQBsAC0AbAB1AGMAZQBuAHQALgBjAG8AbQA7AGcAaQBsAGUAcwAuAGgAZQByAG8AbgBAAGcAbQBhAGkAbAAuAGMAbwBtADsAagBpAGEAbgBnAHkAdQBhAG4AbABvAG4AZwBAAGgAdQBhAHcAZQBpAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBsADIAdgBwAG4AQABpAGUAdABmAC4AbwByAGcA; Sosha1_v1; 7; {386E8059-CB6F-401A-B6C0-CA9E10B0C51E}; cgBhAGYAaQByAEAAbwByAGMAawBpAHQALgBjAG8AbQA=; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:34:15 GMT; UgBFADoAIABMADIAVgBQAE4AIABNAGkAbgB1AHQAZQBzACAALQAgAEkARQBUAEYAOAAxACAAKABHAGkAbABlAHMAIABIAGUAcgBvAG4AKQA= Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:34:15 +0300 Message-ID: <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> In-reply-to: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlCAAigfsA== References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1><3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1><2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: "Rafi Ram" To: "Jiangyuanlong" , "Daniel Cohn" , "Giles Heron" , "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:31:10 -0000 Hi, The proposal in draft-ram-l2vpn-ldp-vpls-etree-2pw-02 supports all Layer 2 service models describes in IETF and MEF. This includes support for H-VPLS (root/leaf PWs between U-PE and N-PE). There is no risk for layer 2 loops since both PWs map to the same VSI interface. The root/leaf PWs are agnostic to the number of stacked VLANs (if any). Discussion on implementation complexity is very subjective, as it involves specific hardware and software implementation. Best regards, Rafi -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:43 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases?=20 See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). =20 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From jiangyuanlong@huawei.com Thu Aug 18 04:17:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350DF21F8779 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:17:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPCgeNd9tpIr for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3FB21F8713 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ400266FDQLW@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 19:17:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ400L44FD7QK@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 19:17:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADF84533; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 19:17:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.93) by szxeml202-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 19:17:38 +0800 Received: from SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.224]) by szxeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.93]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 19:17:48 +0800 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:17:13 +0000 From: Jiangyuanlong Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) In-reply-to: <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> X-Originating-IP: [10.70.40.106] To: Rafi Ram , Daniel Cohn , Giles Heron , "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" Message-id: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041453DB@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlCAAigfsIAADl0w X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: FULr Gjt6 JKkC MLlh S6cy TEKL Uu0A VfpF aOVg etRa hVnK koa8 n0Xp s7pZ xDRO 1K5U; 5; ZABhAG4AaQBlAGwAYwBAAG8AcgBjAGsAaQB0AC4AYwBvAG0AOwBmAGwAbwByAGkAbgAuAGIAYQBsAHUAcwBAAGEAbABjAGEAdABlAGwALQBsAHUAYwBlAG4AdAAuAGMAbwBtADsAZwBpAGwAZQBzAC4AaABlAHIAbwBuAEAAZwBtAGEAaQBsAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBsADIAdgBwAG4AQABpAGUAdABmAC4AbwByAGcAOwByAGEAZgBpAHIAQABvAHIAYwBrAGkAdAAuAGMAbwBtAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {4326C41A-B4C8-4731-A611-063881C9EDF7}; agBpAGEAbgBnAHkAdQBhAG4AbABvAG4AZwBAAGgAdQBhAHcAZQBpAC4AYwBvAG0A; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:17:39 GMT; UgBFADoAIABMADIAVgBQAE4AIABNAGkAbgB1AHQAZQBzACAALQAgAEkARQBUAEYAOAAxACAAKABHAGkAbABlAHMAIABIAGUAcgBvAG4AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {4326C41A-B4C8-4731-A611-063881C9EDF7} X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:17:36 -0000 Hi Rafi, For H-VPLS, how can you support the spoke with Q-in-Q encapsulation using 2 PWs? Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Rafi Ram [mailto:RafiR@orckit.com] Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 6:34 PM To: Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, The proposal in draft-ram-l2vpn-ldp-vpls-etree-2pw-02 supports all Layer 2 service models describes in IETF and MEF. This includes support for H-VPLS (root/leaf PWs between U-PE and N-PE). There is no risk for layer 2 loops since both PWs map to the same VSI interface. The root/leaf PWs are agnostic to the number of stacked VLANs (if any). Discussion on implementation complexity is very subjective, as it involves specific hardware and software implementation. Best regards, Rafi -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:43 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases? See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin. Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW. [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Aug 18 08:14:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FD421F8B1C for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1fzPe-h7XcP for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC6E21F8B04 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.10]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id p7IFFMak016117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:15:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.110]) by usnavsmail2.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id p7IFFM4d014043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:15:22 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.145]) by USNAVSXCHHUB01.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.110]) with mapi; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:15:22 -0500 From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" To: Rafi Ram , Jiangyuanlong , Daniel Cohn , Giles Heron Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:15:20 -0500 Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlCAAigfsIAATT/w Message-ID: <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419ABD@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1><3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1><2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> In-Reply-To: <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.10 Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:14:41 -0000 Hi Rafi, Why bother to signal/establish/maintain 2 PWs when I can just use one per V= SI pair (in the VLAN base case) - see Yuanlong draft? Also for a Service Pr= ovider that has both native Ethernet access and MPLS why should one have to= worry about two mechanisms/addressing types: one for Ethernet and a differ= ent one for MPLS. It complicates unnecessarily the troubleshooting. And we = did not discuss the BGP VPLS case where an additional full Label Block + VE= ID must be assigned/signaled for every new PW. The other VLAN approach doe= s not touch the existing PW signaling/VPLS Forwarder structure.=20 Florin -----Original Message----- From: Rafi Ram [mailto:RafiR@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:34 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, The proposal in draft-ram-l2vpn-ldp-vpls-etree-2pw-02 supports all Layer 2 service models describes in IETF and MEF. This includes support for H-VPLS (root/leaf PWs between U-PE and N-PE). There is no risk for layer 2 loops since both PWs map to the same VSI interface. The root/leaf PWs are agnostic to the number of stacked VLANs (if any). Discussion on implementation complexity is very subjective, as it involves specific hardware and software implementation. Best regards, Rafi -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:43 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases?=20 See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). =20 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From lucy.yong@huawei.com Thu Aug 18 08:48:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B9B21F8B63 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wJqMiBsdF1Jz for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga02-in.huawei.com (usaga02-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895CD21F8B53 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQ400EOHRYP1Y@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:49:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfweml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.18.4.104]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPS id <0LQ4002U3RYOS4@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:49:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from DFWEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.102) by dfweml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.9.107) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:49:31 -0700 Received: from DFWEML503-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.37]) by DFWEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:49:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:49:33 +0000 From: Lucy yong Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) In-reply-to: <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> X-Originating-IP: [10.47.149.205] To: Daniel Cohn , Jiangyuanlong , Giles Heron Message-id: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D049BF4A1@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: en-US Thread-topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAQ/LkA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: APST BxG4 Dzvc E+c0 FhKB Gsci KGrb M7Ak OqN4 QpJU Qv7a RQUt VqfX avUJ bOwb cbj8; 3; ZABhAG4AaQBlAGwAYwBAAG8AcgBjAGsAaQB0AC4AYwBvAG0AOwBnAGkAbABlAHMALgBoAGUAcgBvAG4AQABnAG0AYQBpAGwALgBjAG8AbQA7AGwAMgB2AHAAbgBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {F8FF7FB0-0E55-4BFF-B028-359AE5DA5883}; bAB1AGMAeQAuAHkAbwBuAGcAQABoAHUAYQB3AGUAaQAuAGMAbwBtAA==; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:49:27 GMT; UgBFADoAIABMADIAVgBQAE4AIABNAGkAbgB1AHQAZQBzACAALQAgAEkARQBUAEYAOAAxACAAKABHAGkAbABlAHMAIABIAGUAcgBvAG4AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {F8FF7FB0-0E55-4BFF-B028-359AE5DA5883} References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:48:44 -0000 Daniel, Sorry to chip in here. FYI: MEF26.1 is working on E-Tree over ENNI now. The solution is to use two S-VLAN tag indicating the frame originated from root or leaf at ENNI. The frames over ENNI contain one S-VLAN and/or one C-VLAN, there is no three VLAN stacking issue. Yuanlong's proposal uses the model of RFC6246 which has already specified the process for ACs where the frames come with S-VLAN tag. Please read it. S-VLAN solution is more align with IEEE and MEF solutions, which makes interworking simpler and compatible with existing hardware. BTW: The appendix A in Draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01 has comprehensive analysis in different encapsulation approaches. It explains why we do not want use of multiple PWs for the encapsulation of one service. Please read it too. Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:42 PM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From davari@broadcom.com Thu Aug 18 10:39:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E60211E80AB for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hu44KCn1qZhl for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms1.broadcom.com (mms1.broadcom.com [216.31.210.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F1F11E8095 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.16.192.232] by mms1.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:46:23 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 02CED230-5797-4B57-9875-D5D2FEE4708A Received: from SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.16.192.130]) by SJEXCHHUB02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.16.192.232]) with mapi; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:40:27 -0700 From: "Shahram Davari" To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" , "Rafi Ram" , Jiangyuanlong , "Daniel Cohn" , "Giles Heron" Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:40:24 -0700 Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlCAAigfsIAATT/wgAAtzJA= Message-ID: <2C2F1EBA8050E74EA81502D5740B4BD6A932B2FAA4@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1><3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1><2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419ABD@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419ABD@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 625390653DK12565528-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:39:49 -0000 Florin, What do you mean the other VLAN approach? Could you please elaborate your p= roposal that doesn't need 2xPW? Thx Shahram -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of B= alus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:15 AM To: Rafi Ram; Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Rafi, Why bother to signal/establish/maintain 2 PWs when I can just use one per V= SI pair (in the VLAN base case) - see Yuanlong draft? Also for a Service Pr= ovider that has both native Ethernet access and MPLS why should one have to= worry about two mechanisms/addressing types: one for Ethernet and a differ= ent one for MPLS. It complicates unnecessarily the troubleshooting. And we = did not discuss the BGP VPLS case where an additional full Label Block + VE= ID must be assigned/signaled for every new PW. The other VLAN approach doe= s not touch the existing PW signaling/VPLS Forwarder structure.=20 Florin -----Original Message----- From: Rafi Ram [mailto:RafiR@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:34 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, The proposal in draft-ram-l2vpn-ldp-vpls-etree-2pw-02 supports all Layer 2 service models describes in IETF and MEF. This includes support for H-VPLS (root/leaf PWs between U-PE and N-PE). There is no risk for layer 2 loops since both PWs map to the same VSI interface. The root/leaf PWs are agnostic to the number of stacked VLANs (if any). Discussion on implementation complexity is very subjective, as it involves specific hardware and software implementation. Best regards, Rafi -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:43 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases?=20 See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). =20 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com Thu Aug 18 10:55:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830C611E80A4 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RjYZnKTOnRim for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85EDE21F8B8C for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.12]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id p7IHuBmV020217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (usnavsxchhub03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com [135.3.39.112]) by usnavsmail4.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/GMO) with ESMTP id p7IHuAWg020684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:10 -0500 Received: from USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.145]) by USNAVSXCHHUB03.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.3.39.112]) with mapi; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:10 -0500 From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" To: Shahram Davari , Rafi Ram , Jiangyuanlong , Daniel Cohn , Giles Heron Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:09 -0500 Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlCAAigfsIAATT/wgAAtzJCAAAPKEA== Message-ID: <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419B3E@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1><3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1><2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419ABD@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <2C2F1EBA8050E74EA81502D5740B4BD6A932B2FAA4@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> In-Reply-To: <2C2F1EBA8050E74EA81502D5740B4BD6A932B2FAA4@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 135.3.39.12 Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:55:23 -0000 I was talking about the Yuanlong's draft - sorry I should have included the= link http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree-04 ... -----Original Message----- From: Shahram Davari [mailto:davari@broadcom.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:40 AM To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Rafi Ram; Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; G= iles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Florin, What do you mean the other VLAN approach? Could you please elaborate your p= roposal that doesn't need 2xPW? Thx Shahram -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of B= alus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:15 AM To: Rafi Ram; Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Rafi, Why bother to signal/establish/maintain 2 PWs when I can just use one per V= SI pair (in the VLAN base case) - see Yuanlong draft? Also for a Service Pr= ovider that has both native Ethernet access and MPLS why should one have to= worry about two mechanisms/addressing types: one for Ethernet and a differ= ent one for MPLS. It complicates unnecessarily the troubleshooting. And we = did not discuss the BGP VPLS case where an additional full Label Block + VE= ID must be assigned/signaled for every new PW. The other VLAN approach doe= s not touch the existing PW signaling/VPLS Forwarder structure.=20 Florin -----Original Message----- From: Rafi Ram [mailto:RafiR@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:34 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, The proposal in draft-ram-l2vpn-ldp-vpls-etree-2pw-02 supports all Layer 2 service models describes in IETF and MEF. This includes support for H-VPLS (root/leaf PWs between U-PE and N-PE). There is no risk for layer 2 loops since both PWs map to the same VSI interface. The root/leaf PWs are agnostic to the number of stacked VLANs (if any). Discussion on implementation complexity is very subjective, as it involves specific hardware and software implementation. Best regards, Rafi -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:43 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases?=20 See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). =20 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From davari@broadcom.com Thu Aug 18 12:56:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2352F11E808A for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9rbG--eOYIN1 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms1.broadcom.com (mms1.broadcom.com [216.31.210.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C616011E8084 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.16.192.232] by mms1.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:56:37 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: 02CED230-5797-4B57-9875-D5D2FEE4708A Received: from SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.16.192.130]) by SJEXCHHUB02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.16.192.232]) with mapi; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:50:40 -0700 From: "Shahram Davari" To: "Puneet Agarwal" Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:50:38 -0700 Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AQHMWvK1yeg7YYX1H0O6BpZ1zm8zmJUegGRwgAAuD1CAAMtoUIAAP4gQgACJFlCAAigfsIAATT/wgAAtzJCAAAPKEIAAIH+g Message-ID: <2C2F1EBA8050E74EA81502D5740B4BD6A932B2FB9E@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> References: <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144C12@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A743@tlvmail1><3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B04144D6D@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com><44F4E579A764584EA9BDFD07D0CA081306F9A831@tlvmail1><2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB0A8999@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <3B0A1BED22CAD649A1B3E97BE5DDD68B041451E9@SZXEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com> <45A67426326F814AAC27DBEC3FC7EEC203F9FE6F@tlvmail1> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419ABD@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <2C2F1EBA8050E74EA81502D5740B4BD6A932B2FAA4@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419B3E@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BB419B3E@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 6253B1FF3DK12610501-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 19:56:26 -0000 Puneet, What do you think? I like this S-VLAN solution (using an S-VLAN for root an= d another for Leaf) better than 2xPW. We can support this S-VLAN solution t= oday. Thx SD -----Original Message----- From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.co= m]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:56 AM To: Shahram Davari; Rafi Ram; Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) I was talking about the Yuanlong's draft - sorry I should have included the= link http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree-04 ... -----Original Message----- From: Shahram Davari [mailto:davari@broadcom.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:40 AM To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Rafi Ram; Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; G= iles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Florin, What do you mean the other VLAN approach? Could you please elaborate your p= roposal that doesn't need 2xPW? Thx Shahram -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of B= alus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:15 AM To: Rafi Ram; Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Rafi, Why bother to signal/establish/maintain 2 PWs when I can just use one per V= SI pair (in the VLAN base case) - see Yuanlong draft? Also for a Service Pr= ovider that has both native Ethernet access and MPLS why should one have to= worry about two mechanisms/addressing types: one for Ethernet and a differ= ent one for MPLS. It complicates unnecessarily the troubleshooting. And we = did not discuss the BGP VPLS case where an additional full Label Block + VE= ID must be assigned/signaled for every new PW. The other VLAN approach doe= s not touch the existing PW signaling/VPLS Forwarder structure.=20 Florin -----Original Message----- From: Rafi Ram [mailto:RafiR@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:34 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, The proposal in draft-ram-l2vpn-ldp-vpls-etree-2pw-02 supports all Layer 2 service models describes in IETF and MEF. This includes support for H-VPLS (root/leaf PWs between U-PE and N-PE). There is no risk for layer 2 loops since both PWs map to the same VSI interface. The root/leaf PWs are agnostic to the number of stacked VLANs (if any). Discussion on implementation complexity is very subjective, as it involves specific hardware and software implementation. Best regards, Rafi -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:43 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron; Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, Please see my comments inline as noted with [JYL]. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Cohn Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:43 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi, That is precisely my point - there is no requirement to support E-Tree E-NNI, therefore the claim that "E-Tree services may cross both Ethernet and VPLS domains" is not supported by the requirements. [JYL] The interface between different technologies is named I-NNI by some SDOs. Even H-VPLS as specified in RFC 4762 may have some Ethernet devices such as the MTU-s. Furthermore, all PE models as specified in L2VPN WG (such as RFC 4664, RFC 6246, draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-03) have a bridge module inside. What a limited scenario for us to target if we preclude all these VPLS use cases?=20 See inline with [DC] regarding your comments on PW pair solution. Regards, DC -----Original Message----- From: Jiangyuanlong [mailto:jiangyuanlong@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:59 AM To: Daniel Cohn; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Daniel, MEF-26 does not include E-Tree E-NNI yet, maybe phase 2 will;) In fact, we have multiple options to support E-Tree E-NNI if it is required: 1) Using two global S-VLANs for the E-Tree E-NNI and transparently connected them into the same VSI; 2) Using an extra E-Tree label (indicating root/leaf) under the PW label; 3) Using PBB encapsulation. Thus we don't need three VLANs or two PWs to make it work. Using two PWs between a pair of PEs, may introduce loops as commented by Florin.=20 Further disadvantages of parallel PWs are also discussed in Sec. A.3 in draft-ietf-pwe3-packet-pw-01: 1) how to fate sharing of these PWs [DC] Fate sharing between data and OAM, as required by RFC 5921, is supported. I am not aware of a requirement for fate sharing across PWs. [JYL] If these PWs are not fate sharing, and if one PW is down, then some E-Tree traffic will pass and some will fail. This will bring difficulty to the fault diagnosis (proactive PW OAM is not usually deployed in VPLS network yet). =20 2) how to provide OAM for these PWs [DC] As for any other PW (see e.g. draft-ietf-mpls-tp-oam-framework) - don't see the difference. [JYL] So resources for OAM need to be doubled if we must provide OAM for each of them. BTW, PW protection work also become more complex. 3) control plane and management plane complexity of multiple PWs working as a single PW. [DC] There's no requirement in the draft that the PWs should work as a single PW.=20 [JYL] LDP VPLS and BGP VPLS signaling only support one PW currently, they need to be extended to support signaling of two PWs between the same pair of PEs. And the number of PWs to manage in VPLS also doubled. Regards Yuanlong -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Cohn [mailto:DanielC@orckit.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:42 AM To: Jiangyuanlong; Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Yuanlong and all, S-VLAN preservation is specified by MEF-26 at E-NNI. Therefore if you want to support E-NNI between networks containing root and leaf UNIs (which again AFAIK is not part of MEF E-Tree requirements), draft-jiang/l2vpn-vpls-pe-etree requires three VLAN tags in the E-NNI (C-VLAN, S-VLAN and root/leaf VLAN). As we already discussed, there are several problems with triple-tagged Ethernet frames. Regards, Daniel -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiangyuanlong Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:26 AM To: Giles Heron Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: RE: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Hi Giles and all, Sorry for this late comment, I had a holiday last week and had no access to the Internet. Though impossible to change the minutes, I think it needs to be re-clarified that S-VLAN encapsulation as UNI is not a requirement in MEF. [Yuanlong] I think the 3 VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Correction: [Yuanlong] I think the S-VLAN tags is out of scope of MEF itself. MEF defines C-VLAN and untagged access. It's not a requirement of the MEF itself. Thanks Yuanlong ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From: Giles Heron To: Subject: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" All, The draft minutes from Quebec are available at: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/l2vpn.txt Please review and comment to the list (or to the chairs) as soon as possible if you'd to see any corrections. Changes can only be made until Friday so please get any comments in as soon as possible. Many thanks to our minute takers: Alia Atlas and John Scudder Nabil & Giles ------------------------------ From davari@broadcom.com Thu Aug 18 17:00:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F244521F8A7D for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Q0tjYmbMDUo for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms2.broadcom.com (mms2.broadcom.com [216.31.210.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C4A21F8A35 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.16.192.232] by mms2.broadcom.com with ESMTP (Broadcom SMTP Relay (Email Firewall v6.3.2)); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:07:03 -0700 X-Server-Uuid: D3C04415-6FA8-4F2C-93C1-920E106A2031 Received: from SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.16.192.130]) by SJEXCHHUB02.corp.ad.broadcom.com ([10.16.192.232]) with mapi; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:01:28 -0700 From: "Shahram Davari" To: "Puneet Agarwal" X-CallingTelephoneNumber: IPM.Note X-VoiceMessageDuration: 1 X-FaxNumberOfPages: 0 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:01:24 -0700 Subject: Recall: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Topic: L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (Giles Heron) Thread-Index: AcxeAySMz60N7C2SRQana7NXExqX4w== Message-ID: <2C2F1EBA8050E74EA81502D5740B4BD6A932B2FD9B@SJEXCHCCR02.corp.ad.broadcom.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AiLp Alt9 B8Zu DrRH DyBg ERG7 Eurn FT4h G9aa HCKN IIS3 ILV5 JwOa J5j/ KVha KlvQ; 1; bAAyAHYAcABuAEAAaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {030043BB-3630-4287-BFDE-0CA92A4A093E}; ZABhAHYAYQByAGkAQABiAHIAbwBhAGQAYwBvAG0ALgBjAG8AbQA=; Fri, 19 Aug 2011 00:01:24 GMT; UgBlAGMAYQBsAGwAOgAgAEwAMgBWAFAATgAgAE0AaQBuAHUAdABlAHMAIAAtACAASQBFAFQARgA4ADEAIAAoAEcAaQBsAGUAcwAgAEgAZQByAG8AbgApAA== x-cr-puzzleid: {030043BB-3630-4287-BFDE-0CA92A4A093E} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 625376AD3W46284979-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 00:00:44 -0000 Shahram Davari would like to recall the message, "L2VPN Minutes - IETF81 (G= iles Heron)".= From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Mon Aug 22 20:10:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2746521F8427 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:10:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gd0QbEAl1oEg for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DA821F8B3C for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQD000GU255V6@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:10:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQD00IT6255EU@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:10:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADI35911; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:10:17 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.93) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:10:14 +0800 Received: from SZXEML525-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.40]) by szxeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.93]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:10:16 +0800 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_lI1t8nfhbhlGtMqtgD8HqA)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbA== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:32 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_lI1t8nfhbhlGtMqtgD8HqA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I'm considering whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization. Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore. Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is guaranteed? Best regards, Xiaohu --Boundary_(ID_lI1t8nfhbhlGtMqtgD8HqA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi all,

 

There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I’m considering whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is guaranteed?

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

 

 

--Boundary_(ID_lI1t8nfhbhlGtMqtgD8HqA)-- From aldrin.isaac@gmail.com Tue Aug 23 04:35:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7477421F859F for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:35:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WI8FhaVXBVym for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f45.google.com (mail-pz0-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0203421F8591 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so30372pzk.18 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:37:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=B+V78MuVe8JcfMHxWcJ2D558MmjHTfEWmU/S2CKP1gA=; b=H6yxqoIlOeOQDYoJGbimywPnyijUfQm0Ni5E9cdSJlCoYpYNEBc/Sz1NFgLqf/fsqh RWq71RoaGW4C9wnS1wcS385hMk4PzdWCfJS5gGe7S0A8KILToeCZ4WOcwsDL2rvZed8V JaacRl8DNR2kiqGzQ4aXXb/m6pmoQ0YDsfhEY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.187.14 with SMTP id k14mr830385wff.288.1314099423621; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.186.15 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:37:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:37:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution From: Aldrin Isaac To: Xuxiaohu , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:35:57 -0000 There are now firewalls that support active-active functionality including support for virtual wire (bump-in-the-wire) functionality that may be able to solve those issues. Moreover, virtual-wire firewalls are interesting in that the firewall performs only network security role while keeping all network routing/switching functions with routers and switches. On 8/22/11, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Hi all, > > There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a > data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I'm considering > whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering > route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g., the > Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a default > gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffic > routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are > within a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only > one default gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward > traffic routing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the > perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization. > > Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic > destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. > This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, > firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic to/from > the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, > active-active VRRP is not available anymore. > > Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path > symmetry is guaranteed? > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > > -- Sent from my mobile device From bedard.phil@gmail.com Tue Aug 23 05:35:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FC621F862F for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 05:35:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.349, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vYoSSWOvYNpg for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 05:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391B821F85B9 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 05:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so51207gxk.31 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type; bh=lbm5yeuCkIoo6qqijrw9C7Vw4l1BmERMCjyr3AeMoEU=; b=OrxF+so9iWEnTu7scNw3imqBqkIvHhZUXqAPMFRXFzhldiNivjSGHcbuWcYhfghjdl nd+rj1BJAAIokodMQ4/BEP3TemnVueZJTDNUm3qTgm8stMMpVnZ8Vc/ecy8PmVLR/amf GhfcBqL28qa9BxMVa/TKj0ryju0lsQAQtGAEQ= Received: by 10.236.153.98 with SMTP id e62mr22836026yhk.40.1314103009750; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.62.60.161] (gw1.cox.com [24.248.74.254]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a62sm166487yhe.53.2011.08.23.05.36.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 23 Aug 2011 05:36:46 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.12.0.110505 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:36:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution From: Phil Bedard To: Xuxiaohu , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3396933405_3936953" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:44 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3396933405_3936953 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the ability to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either throug= h clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link o= r state table syncrhonization. Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through either virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation= . Some vendors take one approach or the other while others support both approaches. We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple VRRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the other gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry. If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces within a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traffic across a trunk between the two devices. GLBP from Cisco is an enhanced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRRP being proposed which does the same. Phil=20 From: Xuxiaohu Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000 To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Hi all, =20 There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=B9m considerin= g whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g., th= e Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization. =20 Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases= , firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic to/fro= m the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore. =20 Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is guaranteed? =20 Best regards, Xiaohu =20 =20 --B_3396933405_3936953 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Most of the newer = security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the ability to deal with asymme= tric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either through clustering where t= raffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncr= honization.    Active/Active gateways are being achieved these day= s through either virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   S= ome vendors take one approach or the other while others support both approac= hes.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back to back) MC-L= AG configuration which balances traffic in both directions.   

The old way of active/active balancing at = L3 would be use multiple VRRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and o= ther hosts using the other gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If= you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces within a L2 do= main MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traffic across a= trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enhanced version= of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows ou= tbound L3 load balancing, I can't remember it being written into an informat= ion RFC or a version of VRRP being proposed which does the same.  


Phil 
From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu= @huawei.com>
Date: Tue, 23 = Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

Hi all,

 

There had been a lot of discussion about active-active mult= i-homing for a data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now = I’m considering whether we could further achieve active-active DC exit= s when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g., t= he Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a default = gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffic r= outing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a single subnet due to the layer2 = DCI usage, normally there is only one default gateway router (acting as VRRP= master) is allowed to forward traffic routing to/from the outside. This is = obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case = so that the traffic destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local= DC exit router. This is workable when path symmetry is not required. Howeve= r, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffi= c to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, = active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC e= xits while path symmetry is guaranteed?

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

 

=  

--B_3396933405_3936953-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Tue Aug 23 19:59:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D790A21F8B43 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:59:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hs99UXElrGXZ for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D08521F8B42 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) 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11:00:01 +0800 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:00:01 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Phil Bedard , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7253CB@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9EUaxy8mnkr05yZXJx6sUA)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbAACmPcAAC9QrXA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 02:59:35 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_9EUaxy8mnkr05yZXJx6sUA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 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Hi Phil= ,

&n= bsp;

If I un= derstand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are almost pr= oprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically disper= sed locations are provided by a single vendor.

&n= bsp;

I found= there was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when host route= based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-05) is used for DCI. For example, when incomin= g traffic from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes = that here DC exit gateways of geographically dispersed DCs are configured w= ith different IP address pools without any overlapping. In addition, the co= rresponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the DC gateways to their connected PE rout= ers of the IP-only L2VPN respectively. Thus, when the outgoing traffic dest= ined to the Internet arrives at its local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, t= hat PE router could forward the traffic according to the matching routes for the above address pools. In t= his way, active-active DC exits can be achieved easily in the case where pa= th symmetry is required.  

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Xiaohu =  

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD= =CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C2<= span lang=3D"EN-US">23=C8=D5 20:37
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the a= bility to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either= through clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncrhonization. &nbs= p;  Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through eithe= r virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   Some vendors ta= ke one approach or the other while others support both approaches.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back= to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. &= nbsp; 

 

The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple V= RRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the othe= r gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces with= in a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traff= ic across a trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enha= nced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I = can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRR= P being proposed which does the same.  

 

 

Phil 

From: Xuxi= aohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org"= <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi all,

 

There had= been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data cente= r (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=A1=AFm considering whe= ther we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from t= he outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will= be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsi= ble for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a si= ngle subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default= gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routi= ng to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-ac= tive VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined = for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is wor= kable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exi= ts for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a m= ust, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there = any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is gu= aranteed?

 

Best rega= rds,

Xiaohu

 

 

--Boundary_(ID_9EUaxy8mnkr05yZXJx6sUA)-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Tue Aug 23 20:06:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9499621F8B22 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:06:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.756, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZzB9e4blxil for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FB921F8B06 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQE00GJYWO2F7@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:07:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQE00E0DWO2OD@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:07:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADJ71831; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:07:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML409-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.136) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:07:09 +0800 Received: from SZXEML525-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.40]) by szxeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.89.141]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:07:13 +0800 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:07:13 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Aldrin Isaac , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE72540D@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbAAAhECAADGLPDA= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:06:07 -0000 SGkgQWxkcmluLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24uIFBsZWFz ZSBzZWUgbXkgcmVwbHkgdG8gUGhpbCBCZWRhcmQgaW4gYW5vdGhlciBlbWFpbC4NCg0KQmVzdCBy ZWdhcmRzLA0KWGlhb2h1DQoNCj4gLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQo+ILeivP7IyzogQWxkcmlu IElzYWFjIFttYWlsdG86YWxkcmluLmlzYWFjQGdtYWlsLmNvbV0NCj4gt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTHE 6jjUwjIzyNUgMTk6MzcNCj4gytW8/sjLOiBYdXhpYW9odTsgbDJ2cG5AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g1vfM 4jogUmU6IEFjdGl2ZS1hY3RpdmUgREMgZXhpdHMgaW4gdGhlIERDSSBzb2x1dGlvbg0KPiANCj4g VGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vdyBmaXJld2FsbHMgdGhhdCBzdXBwb3J0IGFjdGl2ZS1hY3RpdmUgZnVuY3Rp b25hbGl0eQ0KPiBpbmNsdWRpbmcgc3VwcG9ydCBmb3IgdmlydHVhbCB3aXJlIChidW1wLWluLXRo ZS13aXJlKSBmdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5DQo+IHRoYXQgbWF5IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gc29sdmUgdGhvc2Ug aXNzdWVzLiAgTW9yZW92ZXIsIHZpcnR1YWwtd2lyZQ0KPiBmaXJld2FsbHMgYXJlIGludGVyZXN0 aW5nIGluIHRoYXQgdGhlIGZpcmV3YWxsIHBlcmZvcm1zIG9ubHkgbmV0d29yaw0KPiBzZWN1cml0 eSByb2xlIHdoaWxlIGtlZXBpbmcgYWxsIG5ldHdvcmsgcm91dGluZy9zd2l0Y2hpbmcgZnVuY3Rp b25zDQo+IHdpdGggcm91dGVycyBhbmQgc3dpdGNoZXMuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gT24gOC8yMi8xMSwg WHV4aWFvaHUgPHh1eGlhb2h1QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+IEhpIGFsbCwNCj4gPg0K PiA+IFRoZXJlIGhhZCBiZWVuIGEgbG90IG9mIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYWJvdXQgYWN0aXZlLWFjdGl2 ZSBtdWx0aS1ob21pbmcgZm9yIGENCj4gPiBkYXRhIGNlbnRlciAoREMpIHNpdGUgaW4gdGhlIGxh eWVyMiBEQ0kgc29sdXRpb24gYmVmb3JlLiBOb3cgSSdtIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nDQo+ID4gd2hldGhl ciB3ZSBjb3VsZCBmdXJ0aGVyIGFjaGlldmUgYWN0aXZlLWFjdGl2ZSBEQyBleGl0cyB3aGVuIGNv bnNpZGVyaW5nDQo+ID4gcm91dGUgb3B0aW1pemF0aW9uIGZvciB0cmFmZmljIHJvdXRpbmcgdG8v ZnJvbSB0aGUgb3V0c2lkZSBvZiBEQ3MgKGUuZy4sIHRoZQ0KPiA+IEludGVybmV0KS4gSW4gYSBu b3JtYWwgY2FzZSwgZWFjaCBEQyBzaXRlIHdpbGwgYmUgY29ubmVjdGVkIHRvIGEgZGVmYXVsdA0K PiA+IGdhdGV3YXkgKGkuZS4sIERDIGV4aXQgcm91dGVyKSB3aGljaCBpcyByZXNwb25zaWJsZSBm b3IgZm9yd2FyZGluZyB0cmFmZmljDQo+ID4gcm91dGluZyB0by9mcm9tIHRoZSBvdXRzaWRlLiBI b3dldmVyLCBzaW5jZSB0aGVzZSBkZWZhdWx0IGdhdGV3YXlzIGFyZQ0KPiA+IHdpdGhpbiBhIHNp bmdsZSBzdWJuZXQgZHVlIHRvIHRoZSBsYXllcjIgRENJIHVzYWdlLCBub3JtYWxseSB0aGVyZSBp cyBvbmx5DQo+ID4gb25lIGRlZmF1bHQgZ2F0ZXdheSByb3V0ZXIgKGFjdGluZyBhcyBWUlJQIG1h c3RlcikgaXMgYWxsb3dlZCB0byBmb3J3YXJkDQo+ID4gdHJhZmZpYyByb3V0aW5nIHRvL2Zyb20g dGhlIG91dHNpZGUuIFRoaXMgaXMgb2J2aW91c2x5IG5vdCBvcHRpbWFsIGZyb20gdGhlDQo+ID4g cGVyc3BlY3RpdmUgb2YgV0FOIGJhbmR3aWR0aCB1dGlsaXphdGlvbi4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEFjdGl2 ZS1hY3RpdmUgVlJSUCBoYXMgYmVlbiBwcm9wb3NlZCBpbiB0aGUgYWJvdmUgY2FzZSBzbyB0aGF0 IHRoZSB0cmFmZmljDQo+ID4gZGVzdGluZWQgZm9yIHRoZSBvdXRzaWRlIGNvdWxkIGJlIGZvcndh cmRlZCBieSB0aGUgbG9jYWwgREMgZXhpdCByb3V0ZXIuDQo+ID4gVGhpcyBpcyB3b3JrYWJsZSB3 aGVuIHBhdGggc3ltbWV0cnkgaXMgbm90IHJlcXVpcmVkLiBIb3dldmVyLCBpbiBtb3N0DQo+IGNh c2VzLA0KPiA+IGZpcmV3YWxsIG9yIE5BVCBkZXZpY2VzIGFyZSBkZXBsb3llZCBhdCB0aGUgREMg ZXhpdHMgZm9yIHRoZSB0cmFmZmljIHRvL2Zyb20NCj4gPiB0aGUgb3V0c2lkZS4gSW4gc3VjaCBj YXNlcywgcGF0aCBzeW1tZXRyeSBpcyBhIG11c3QsIGFzIGEgcmVzdWx0LA0KPiA+IGFjdGl2ZS1h Y3RpdmUgVlJSUCBpcyBub3QgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGFueW1vcmUuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBJcyB0aGVyZSBh bnkgYmV0dGVyIGlkZWEgdG8gYWNoaWV2ZSBhY3RpdmUtYWN0aXZlIERDIGV4aXRzIHdoaWxlIHBh dGgNCj4gPiBzeW1tZXRyeSBpcyBndWFyYW50ZWVkPw0KPiA+DQo+ID4gQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0K PiA+IFhpYW9odQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiANCj4gLS0NCj4gU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IG1vYmls ZSBkZXZpY2UNCg== From crmonteir@gmail.com Wed Aug 24 03:15:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB5821F8562 for ; 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Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [187.116.141.169] ([187.116.141.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o2sm1359816yhl.43.2011.08.24.03.16.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:16:49 -0700 (PDT) References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7253CB@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7253CB@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8J2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9-866353169 Message-Id: <13051FD9-216F-44E4-A696-463DF0E84A35@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8J2) From: Crist Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:16:35 -0300 To: Xuxiaohu Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:15:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail-9-866353169 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Xuxiaohu, Nice solution however a case come up when I read the draft. Trqceability of external ips. For example if a hacker try to get into the we= b server. To get info about it we have sync the nat table with web servers i= nternal logs using the time. Even with specilized tools it is not easy in so= me sites with high rate of incoming conns. Hi Phil Solutions like GLBP achieve load balance however this kind of solution do no= t solve the problem of optimum path inside the DC. For example even with a l= oad balance solution the client inside dc1 can go out using the gateway in d= c2. To solve this problem today uses hsrp blocking the control messages between t= he DC's.In such way the both hsrp nodes becomes the master in its LAN. It's n= ot a elegant solution but it works. Regards=20 Cristiano Enviado via iPhone Em 24/08/2011, =C3=A0s 00:00, Xuxiaohu escreveu: > Hi Phil, >=20 > =20 >=20 > If I understand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are a= lmost proprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically= dispersed locations are provided by a single vendor. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I found there was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when ho= st route based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-05) is used for DCI. For example, when inc= oming traffic from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traf= fic will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes that here DC exit gateways of geo= graphically dispersed DCs are configured with different IP address pools wit= hout any overlapping. In addition, the corresponding routes for the above ad= dress pools are advertised by the DC gateways to their connected PE routers o= f the IP-only L2VPN respectively. Thus, when the outgoing traffic destined t= o the Internet arrives at its local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, that PE r= outer could forward the traffic according to the matching routes for the abo= ve address pools. In this way, active-active DC exits can be achieved easily= in the case where path symmetry is required. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Xiaohu =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]=20= > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2011=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 2= 0:37 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution >=20 > =20 >=20 > Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the ability= to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either throug= h clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link o= r state table syncrhonization. Active/Active gateways are being achieved t= hese days through either virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation. = Some vendors take one approach or the other while others support both appr= oaches. We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back to back) MC-LAG conf= iguration which balances traffic in both directions. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple VRRP gr= oups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the other gatew= ay, but doesn't guarantee symmetry. If you have multilayer devices supporti= ng virtual L3 interfaces within a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of th= e asymmetry by sending traffic across a trunk between the two devices. GLBP= from Cisco is an enhanced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple vir= tual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I can't remember= it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRRP being propose= d which does the same. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Phil=20 >=20 > From: Xuxiaohu > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000 > To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution >=20 > =20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > =20 >=20 > There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a d= ata center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=E2=80=99m cons= idering whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when conside= ring route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g.= , the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a defau= lt gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffi= c routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are wit= hin a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one d= efault gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic r= outing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspecti= ve of WAN bandwidth utilization. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic= destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. Th= is is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, f= irewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic to/from t= he outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, active-acti= ve VRRP is not available anymore. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symm= etry is guaranteed? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Xiaohu >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-9-866353169 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Xuxiaohu,

N= ice solution however a case come up  when I read the draft.
<= br>
Trqceability of external ips. For example if a hacker try to g= et into the web server. To get info about it we have sync the nat table with= web servers internal logs using the time. Even with specilized tools it is n= ot easy in some sites with high rate of incoming conns.

=

Hi Phil

Solutions like GLBP ach= ieve load balance however this kind of solution do not solve the problem of o= ptimum path inside the DC. For example even with a load balance solution the= client inside dc1 can go out using the gateway in dc2.

=
To solve this problem today uses hsrp blocking the control messages bet= ween the DC's.In such way the both hsrp nodes becomes the master in its LAN.= It's not a elegant solution but it works.


Regards 

Cristiano

Enviad= o via iPhone

Em 24/08/2011, =C3=A0s 00:00, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> escreveu:

Hi Phil,=

&nb= sp;

If I und= erstand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are almost prop= rietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically dispersed= locations are provided by a single vendor.

&nb= sp;

I found t= here was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when host route ba= sed IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-05) is used for DCI. For example, when incoming traffic= from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes t= hat here DC exit gateways of geographically dispersed DCs are configured wit= h different IP address pools without any overlapping. In addition, the corre= sponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the DC gateways to their connected PE route= rs of the IP-only L2VPN respectively. Thus, when the outgoing traffic destin= ed to the Internet arrives at its local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, that= PE router could forward the traffic according to the matching routes for the above address pools. In th= is way, active-active DC exits can be achieved easily in the case where path= symmetry is required.  

&nb= sp;

Best reg= ards,

Xiaohu &= nbsp;

&nb= sp;

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80= =81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2011=E5=B9=B48= =E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 20:37
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the abi= lity to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either th= rough clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncrhonization.  = ;  Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through either v= irtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   Some vendors take o= ne approach or the other while others support both approaches.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back t= o back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. &nbs= p; 

 

The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple VRR= P groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the other g= ateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces withi= n a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traffic= across a trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enhance= d version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I c= an't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRRP b= eing proposed which does the same.  

 

 

Phil 

From: Xuxia= ohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution=

 

Hi all,

 

There had b= een a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data center (= DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=E2=80=99m considering whet= her we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from th= e outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will b= e connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible= for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a sin= gle subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default g= ateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routing t= o/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-act= ive VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined fo= r the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is workab= le when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exit= s for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a mus= t, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there a= ny better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is guar= anteed?

 

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 

 

= --Apple-Mail-9-866353169-- From aldrin.isaac@gmail.com Wed Aug 24 05:38:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D3821F858D for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rl8GdmbV796g for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f44.google.com (mail-gw0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E03021F8745 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so991454gwb.31 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y523AnQrjTm84gfYdnp37fNGuEHThUIONudiwuvzHMM=; b=EVTdZTJXvP5tC8sjGMDSMTx3YNQ4iJ1wTATHhR5J3F4eHX+mZSoq24I0JYAQUI2fN9 76TyJ3tVwLo7sxOPUSzdQXQI6UREOIWCe0bKTg1W/ZWLBdVSfuj44I63K+Bt9rqJMVqV D4K05O8XYvfody4pjuoSVvijMzzG/8LoRu5Sk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.133.7 with SMTP id g7mr2425773wfd.117.1314189579503; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.43.2 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:39:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE72540D@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE72540D@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 08:39:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution From: Aldrin Isaac To: Xuxiaohu , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:38:32 -0000 Another key problem with the dedicated NAT pool per DC gateway is that when you lose a DC gateway you get a bunch of broken TCP connections. This is a problem for some applications where app session is tied to TCP connection. On 8/23/11, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Hi Aldrin, > > Thanks for the following information. Please see my reply to Phil Bedard = in > another email. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > >> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Aldrin Isaac [mailto:aldrin.isaac@gmail.com] >> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C223=C8=D5 19:37 >> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org >> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution >> >> There are now firewalls that support active-active functionality >> including support for virtual wire (bump-in-the-wire) functionality >> that may be able to solve those issues. Moreover, virtual-wire >> firewalls are interesting in that the firewall performs only network >> security role while keeping all network routing/switching functions >> with routers and switches. >> >> >> On 8/22/11, Xuxiaohu wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing fo= r >> > a >> > data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I'm >> > considering >> > whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when >> > considering >> > route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g= ., >> > the >> > Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a >> > default >> > gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding >> > traffic >> > routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are >> > within a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is >> > only >> > one default gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to >> > forward >> > traffic routing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal fro= m >> > the >> > perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization. >> > >> > Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the >> > traffic >> > destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit >> > router. >> > This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most >> cases, >> > firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic >> > to/from >> > the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, >> > active-active VRRP is not available anymore. >> > >> > Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path >> > symmetry is guaranteed? >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Xiaohu >> > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Sent from my mobile device > --=20 Sent from my mobile device From bedard.phil@gmail.com Wed Aug 24 07:16:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5866D21F8ACE for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.458, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06ZGXc0S0GLF for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f44.google.com (mail-gw0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D3621F8AD1 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so1072723gwb.31 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:18:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type; bh=Cz3hIBGd+4AVUcxr79vEevFiS9RpaNehQd5xP89TgkQ=; b=QFTluCXuriZX1t1hOyfxqvTPJUxAB81u5rG7ALRSVll5TlZi2xNIwItstzeWzECy+H 2fKqm358fiFlQQDKy/jw9mKoBnSvSDNtz/B1SV+Fw5CImsIZSMxLDmc/YhFKT7miK3RE Q3i7SP7xSpCTH4i97hnPAwmuSMvfh9hTLSCtg= Received: by 10.146.106.33 with SMTP id e33mr5252729yac.8.1314195480920; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.62.62.99] (gw1.cox.com [24.248.74.254]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o2sm1664848yhl.57.2011.08.24.07.17.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 24 Aug 2011 07:17:59 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.12.0.110505 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:17:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution From: Phil Bedard To: Xuxiaohu , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7253CB@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3397025876_6562531" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:16:54 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3397025876_6562531 Content-type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Xiaohu, yes the approaches thus far have been largely proprietary and generally do not perform as well when you are talking about geographically dispersed datacenters. Generally I'm a proponent of not extending L2 domains over large distances, eventually you'll run into some kind of limitation and I don't consider it a best practice. There has been a lot of talk recently in the ARMD group regarding DCI and V= M Mobility in particular. Google has a draft published regarding using IP tunneling and a VM to VM Host directory service to extend communication between two VMs in the same subnet when one may have moved out of the L2 broadcast domain behind a different L3 GW. Their solution is host based i= n that it relies on the VM host to tunnel traffic as opposed to the upstream network equipment. It also relies on the GW at each site to tunnel traffic via IP to where the VM now resides. As a L2 solution Ethernet VPN is somewhat promising in it replaces the flooding mechanisms with local learning and dissemination of MAC informatio= n to PEs using BGP, but does not inherently solve the problem of symmetry. The NAT solution is one that has been around for awhile. I once worked on = a system which used WAN accelerator devices located throughout the world whic= h could perform WAN acceleration/compression between any pair of WAN accelerators. The only issue was for the WAN acceleration to work as it should the traffic had to be symmetric through a given pair of accelerators= . So source NAT was used on each end to maintain the symmetry. That works okay for specific applications where the source address range is not very large but for a large datacenter handling internet traffic that's not realistic. =20 Phil=20 From: Xuxiaohu Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:00:01 +0000 To: Phil Bedard , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Hi Phil, =20 If I understand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are almost proprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically dispersed locations are provided by a single vendor. =20 I found there was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when hos= t route based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-05) is used for DCI. For example, when incoming traffic from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes that here D= C exit gateways of geographically dispersed DCs are configured with different IP address pools without any overlapping. In addition, the corresponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the DC gateways to their connected PE routers of the IP-only L2VPN respectively. Thus, when th= e outgoing traffic destined to the Internet arrives at its local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, that PE router could forward the traffic according to th= e matching routes for the above address pools. In this way, active-active DC exits can be achieved easily in the case where path symmetry is required. =20 Best regards, Xiaohu =20 =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C223=C8=D5 20:37 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution =20 Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the ability to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either throug= h clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link o= r state table syncrhonization. Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through either virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation= . Some vendors take one approach or the other while others support both approaches. We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. =20 The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple VRRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the other gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry. If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces within a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traffic across a trunk between the two devices. GLBP from Cisco is an enhanced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRRP being proposed which does the same. =20 =20 Phil=20 From: Xuxiaohu Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000 To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution =20 Hi all, =20 There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=A1=AFm consideri= ng whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from the outside of DCs (e.g., th= e Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsible for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a single subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routing to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization. =20 Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases= , firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exits for the traffic to/fro= m the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a must, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore. =20 Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is guaranteed? =20 Best regards, Xiaohu =20 =20 --B_3397025876_6562531 Content-type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Xiaohu,  y= es the approaches thus far have been largely proprietary and generally do no= t perform as well when you are talking about geographically dispersed datace= nters.   Generally I'm a proponent of not extending L2 domains over lar= ge distances, eventually you'll run into some kind of limitation and I don't= consider it a best practice.    

=
There has been a lot of talk recently in the ARMD group regarding DCI a= nd VM Mobility in particular.  Google has a draft published regarding u= sing IP tunneling and a VM to VM Host directory service to extend communicat= ion between two VMs in the same subnet when one may have moved out of the L2= broadcast domain behind a different L3 GW.  Their  solution is ho= st based in that it relies on the VM host to tunnel traffic as opposed to th= e upstream network equipment.    It also relies on the GW at each = site to tunnel traffic via IP to where the VM now resides.    

As a L2 solution Ethernet VPN is somewhat promising in= it replaces the flooding mechanisms with local learning and dissemination o= f MAC information to PEs using BGP, but does not inherently solve the proble= m of symmetry.   

The NAT solution is one= that has been around for awhile.  I once worked on a system which used= WAN accelerator devices located throughout the world which could perform WA= N acceleration/compression between any pair of WAN accelerators.  The o= nly issue was for the WAN acceleration to work as it should the traffic had = to be symmetric through a given pair of accelerators.   So source NAT w= as used on each end to maintain the symmetry.  That works okay for spec= ific applications where the source address range is not very large but for a= large datacenter handling internet traffic that's not realistic.  

Phil 


From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Date: = Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:00:01 +0000
To= : Phil Bedard <bedard.phil= @gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <= ;l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solutio= n

Hi Phil,=

 

If I understand it correctly, the following approaches you = mentioned are almost proprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in= geographically dispersed locations are provided by a single vendor.

 

I found there was a very simple STANDARD appr= oach to the same goal when host route based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Vir= tual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-05) is used for DCI. For example, when incoming traffi= c from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes = that here DC exit gateways of geographically dispersed DCs are configured wi= th different IP address pools without any overlapping. In addition, the corr= esponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the DC gateways to their connected PE rout= ers of the IP-only L2VPN respectively. Thus, when the outgoing traffic desti= ned to the Internet arrives at its local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, tha= t PE router could forward the traffic according to the matching routes for the above address pools. In t= his way, active-active DC exits can be achieved easily in the case where pat= h symmetry is required.  

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu  

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C223=C8=D5 20:37
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
= =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC = exits in the DCI solution

&nbs= p;

Most of the newer security devices includi= ng FW, IDS, IPS have the ability to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when = deployed in pairs, either through clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncrhonization. &nbs= p;  Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through either= virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   Some vendors take= one approach or the other while others support both approaches.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back= to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. &n= bsp; 

=  

The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use = multiple VRRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using= the other gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces with= in a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traffi= c across a trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enhanc= ed version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I = can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRRP= being proposed which does the same.  

=

=  

 

Phil 

From: Xuxiaohu= <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@i= etf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solutio= n

 

Hi all,

&= nbsp;

There had been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homi= ng for a data center (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I̵= 7;m considering whether we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from t= he outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will = be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsibl= e for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a si= ngle subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default = gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routing= to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-active VRRP has been proposed in the above case so th= at the traffic destined for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC e= xit router. This is workable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exi= ts for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a mu= st, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path sym= metry is guaranteed?

 

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Best regards,

Xiaohu

 <= o:p>

 

= --B_3397025876_6562531-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Wed Aug 24 18:03:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAEF21F8C4B for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:03:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.409 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.409 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.648, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KDAi6l8t9Ouo for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C0521F8C00 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQG004BKLN4W2@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:04:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQG0095HLN3TV@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:04:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADK20525; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:04:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.60) by szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:03:09 +0800 Received: from SZXEML525-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.40]) by szxeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.211.222]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:04:04 +0800 Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 01:04:04 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Aldrin Isaac , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE72559A@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbAAAhECAADGLPDAAAu7oAAArFNsg X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7250EA@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE72540D@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 01:03:08 -0000 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ID4+ID4gYWN0aXZlLWFjdGl2ZSBWUlJQIGlzIG5vdCBhdmFpbGFibGUgYW55bW9yZS4NCj4gPj4g Pg0KPiA+PiA+IElzIHRoZXJlIGFueSBiZXR0ZXIgaWRlYSB0byBhY2hpZXZlIGFjdGl2ZS1hY3Rp dmUgREMgZXhpdHMgd2hpbGUgcGF0aA0KPiA+PiA+IHN5bW1ldHJ5IGlzIGd1YXJhbnRlZWQ/DQo+ ID4+ID4NCj4gPj4gPiBCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+ID4+ID4gWGlhb2h1DQo+ID4+ID4NCj4gPj4g Pg0KPiA+PiA+DQo+ID4+DQo+ID4+IC0tDQo+ID4+IFNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBtb2JpbGUgZGV2aWNl DQo+ID4NCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IFNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBtb2JpbGUgZGV2aWNlDQo= From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Wed Aug 24 19:46:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF74921F8B2C; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.680, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27qze9hUPXZ3; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B6721F884C; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQG00MW4QFO36@szxga04-in.huawei.com>; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQG009UFQFOFQ@szxga04-in.huawei.com>; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADK31533; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.60) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:42 +0800 Received: from SZXEML525-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.40]) by szxeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.211.222]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:46 +0800 Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 02:47:47 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725622@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qd/1kR5tiQoJdowZb58ERw)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one Thread-index: Acxi0w1AcibzuVsiSkK+GwRxBeP6pg== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "armd@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 02:46:38 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_qd/1kR5tiQoJdowZb58ERw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Another obvious advantage of host route based IP-only L2VPN (e.g., Virtual = Subnet) over VPLS, as a DCI solution, is to reduce the ARP table size on DC= gateways by several order of magnitude. Assume there are millions of CE ho= sts (i.e.,VMs) within a single VLAN/subnet, if VPLS is used as a DCI soluti= on, DC gateways (i.e., DC exit routers) would have to know millions of ARP = entries corresponding to these VMs. In contrast, in the Virtual Subnet solu= tion, DC gateways are directly connected to the PE routers of the IP-only L= 2VPN which act as ARP proxies, MAC addresses of those ARP entries for VMs o= n DC gateways are identical (i.e., ARP Proxy's MAC). Thus these millions of= ARP entries can be aggregated into one entry (1.0.0.0/8->ARP proxy's MAC).= That's to say, the exact-matching algorithm for ARP cache lookup is change= d to the longest-matching algorithm. Of course, there is no free lunch. The= side-effect of this change is that DC gateways could send out packets dest= ined for non-existing VMs to the PE routers of that IP-only L2VPN. Fortunat= ely, once those packets arrive at the PE routers of that IP-only L2VPN, whi= ch in turn will drop them directly since there is no matching routes for th= em. Since this topic is also interesting to ARMD WG, I copy this email to ARMD. Best regards, Xiaohu --Boundary_(ID_qd/1kR5tiQoJdowZb58ERw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi all,

 

Another obvious advantage of host route based IP-only L2VPN (e.g., Virtual Subnet) over VPLS, as a DCI solution, is to reduce the ARP table size on DC gateways by several order of magnitude. Assume there are millions of CE hosts (i.e.,VMs) within a single VLAN/subnet, if VPLS is used as a DCI solution, DC gateways (i.e., DC exit routers) would have to know millions of ARP entries corresponding to these VMs. In contrast, in the Virtual Subnet solution, DC gateways are directly connected to the PE routers of the IP-only L2VPN which act as ARP proxies, MAC addresses of those ARP entries for VMs on DC gateways are identical (i.e., ARP Proxy’s MAC). Thus these millions of ARP entries can be aggregated into one entry (1.0.0.0/8->ARP proxy’s MAC). That’s to say, the exact-matching algorithm for ARP cache lookup is changed to the longest-matching algorithm. Of course, there is no free lunch. The side-effect of this change is that DC gateways could send out packets destined for non-existing VMs to the PE routers of that IP-only L2VPN. Fortunately, once those packets arrive at the PE routers of that IP-only L2VPN, which in turn will drop them directly since there is no matching routes for them.

 

Since this topic is also interesting to ARMD WG, I copy this email to ARMD.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

--Boundary_(ID_qd/1kR5tiQoJdowZb58ERw)-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Wed Aug 24 21:11:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016C121F8B13 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.138, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cm9QNedZOT9c for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB88021F8B0C for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQG005EJUCL31@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:12:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LQG002R2UCJU3@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for l2vpn@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:12:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from 172.24.2.119 (EHLO szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id ADK40894; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:12:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from SZXEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.137) by szxeml205-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.57) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:11:13 +0800 Received: from SZXEML525-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.40]) by szxeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.101.122]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:12:19 +0800 Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 04:12:19 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Phil Bedard , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE72569A@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_m6UFe4pQipeMYi927ZlbtQ)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbAACmPcAAC9QrXAABoKUgAAt3Zpg X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7253CB@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 04:11:13 -0000 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=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C224=C8=D5 22:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi Xiaohu,  yes the approaches thus far have been largely propr= ietary and generally do not perform as well when you are talking about geog= raphically dispersed datacenters.   Generally I'm a proponent of not extending L2 domains over large distances, eventual= ly you'll run into some kind of limitation and I don't consider it a best p= ractice.    

 

There has been a lot of talk recently in the ARMD group regarding DC= I and VM Mobility in particular.  Google has a draft published regardi= ng using IP tunneling and a VM to VM Host directory service to extend communication between two VMs in the same subnet when on= e may have moved out of the L2 broadcast domain behind a different L3 GW. &= nbsp;Their  solution is host based in that it relies on the VM host to= tunnel traffic as opposed to the upstream network equipment.    It also relies on the GW at each site to t= unnel traffic via IP to where the VM now resides.    <= /span>

&n= bsp;

XXH: Wh= en an inbound packet arrives at the GW, if no matching mapping is found in = its local mapping cache, should the packet be dropped or queued before a ma= pping reply is successfully returned from the mapping directory?  

&n= bsp;

Before = exploring any directory-based map&encap approach, I suggest seriously l= ooking through the open issues with that kind of approach which had been id= entified by LISP WG and RRG.

 

As a L2 solution Ethernet VPN is somewhat promising in it replaces t= he flooding mechanisms with local learning and dissemination of MAC informa= tion to PEs using BGP, but does not inherently solve the problem of symmetry.   

&n= bsp;

XXH: Yo= ur observation is correct.

 

The NAT solution is one that has been around for awhile.  I onc= e worked on a system which used WAN accelerator devices located throughout = the world which could perform WAN acceleration/compression between any pair of WAN accelerators.  The only issue was for the WAN= acceleration to work as it should the traffic had to be symmetric through = a given pair of accelerators.   So source NAT was used on each end to = maintain the symmetry.  That works okay for specific applications where the source address range is not very large but= for a large datacenter handling internet traffic that's not realistic. &nb= sp;

&n= bsp;

XXH: &n= bsp;Couldn=A1=AFt NAPT be used in the case where the address pool is not la= rge enough?

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Xiaohu<= o:p>

 

Phil 

 

 

From: Xuxi= aohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:00:01 +0000
To: Phil Bedard <bedard.= phil@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.= org" <l2vpn@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi Phil= ,

 <= /span>

If I un= derstand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are almost pr= oprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically disper= sed locations are provided by a single vendor.

 <= /span>

I found= there was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when host route= based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-x= u-virtual-subnet-05= ) is used for DCI. For example, when incoming traffic from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic = will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes that here DC exit gateways of geogra= phically dispersed DCs are configured with different IP address pools witho= ut any overlapping. In addition, the corresponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the= DC gateways to their connected PE routers of the IP-only L2VPN respectivel= y. Thus, when the outgoing traffic destined to the Internet arrives at its = local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, that PE router could forward the traffic according to the matching routes = for the above address pools. In this way, active-active DC exits can be ach= ieved easily in the case where path symmetry is required.  

 <= /span>

Best re= gards,<= /p>

Xiaohu =  <= /p>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C223= =C8=D5 20:37
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the a= bility to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either= through clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncrhonization. &nbs= p;  Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through eithe= r virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   Some vendors ta= ke one approach or the other while others support both approaches.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back= to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. &= nbsp; 

 <= /span>

The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple V= RRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the othe= r gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces with= in a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traff= ic across a trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enha= nced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I = can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRR= P being proposed which does the same.  

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

Phil 

From: Xuxi= aohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org"= <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 <= /span>

Hi all,

 

There had= been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data cente= r (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=A1=AFm considering whe= ther we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from t= he outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will= be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsi= ble for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a si= ngle subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default= gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routi= ng to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-ac= tive VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined = for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is wor= kable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exi= ts for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a m= ust, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there = any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is gu= aranteed?

 

Best rega= rds,

Xiaohu

 

 

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14.01.0270.001; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:36:16 +0800 Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 07:36:15 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Phil Bedard , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7256E7@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9mmChAL0tMOkhIufLrCO7g)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbAACmPcAAC9QrXAABoKUgAA1Akqg X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7253CB@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 07:35:57 -0000 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=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C224=C8=D5 22:18
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi Xiaohu,  yes the approaches thus far have been largely propr= ietary and generally do not perform as well when you are talking about geog= raphically dispersed datacenters.   Generally I'm a proponent of not extending L2 domains over large distances, eventual= ly you'll run into some kind of limitation and I don't consider it a best p= ractice.    

 

There has been a lot of talk recently in the ARMD group regarding DC= I and VM Mobility in particular.  Google has a draft published regardi= ng using IP tunneling and a VM to VM Host directory service to extend communication between two VMs in the same subnet when on= e may have moved out of the L2 broadcast domain behind a different L3 GW. &= nbsp;Their  solution is host based in that it relies on the VM host to= tunnel traffic as opposed to the upstream network equipment.    It also relies on the GW at each site to t= unnel traffic via IP to where the VM now resides.    <= /span>

 

As a L2 solution Ethernet VPN is somewhat promising in it replaces t= he flooding mechanisms with local learning and dissemination of MAC informa= tion to PEs using BGP, but does not inherently solve the problem of symmetry.   

 

The NAT solution is one that has been around for awhile.  I onc= e worked on a system which used WAN accelerator devices located throughout = the world which could perform WAN acceleration/compression between any pair of WAN accelerators.  The only issue was for the WAN= acceleration to work as it should the traffic had to be symmetric through = a given pair of accelerators.   So source NAT was used on each end to = maintain the symmetry.  That works okay for specific applications where the source address range is not very large but= for a large datacenter handling internet traffic that's not realistic. &nb= sp;

 

Hi Phil= ,

&n= bsp;

Could y= ou please explain why source NAT is not realistic for a large datacenter? I= MHO, there should be no limitation on the size of the address pool for sour= ce NAT, in other words, you could almost use the whole Interne IP address space as the source NAT address pool as l= ong as it has no overlapping with the DC internal address space.=

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Xiaohu<= o:p>

&n= bsp;

Phil 

 

 

From: Xuxi= aohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:00:01 +0000
To: Phil Bedard <bedard.= phil@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.= org" <l2vpn@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi Phil= ,

 <= /span>

If I un= derstand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are almost pr= oprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically disper= sed locations are provided by a single vendor.

 <= /span>

I found= there was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when host route= based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-x= u-virtual-subnet-05= ) is used for DCI. For example, when incoming traffic from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic = will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes that here DC exit gateways of geogra= phically dispersed DCs are configured with different IP address pools witho= ut any overlapping. In addition, the corresponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the= DC gateways to their connected PE routers of the IP-only L2VPN respectivel= y. Thus, when the outgoing traffic destined to the Internet arrives at its = local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, that PE router could forward the traffic according to the matching routes = for the above address pools. In this way, active-active DC exits can be ach= ieved easily in the case where path symmetry is required.  

 <= /span>

Best re= gards,<= /p>

Xiaohu =  <= /p>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C223= =C8=D5 20:37
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the a= bility to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either= through clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncrhonization. &nbs= p;  Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through eithe= r virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   Some vendors ta= ke one approach or the other while others support both approaches.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back= to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. &= nbsp; 

 <= /span>

The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple V= RRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the othe= r gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces with= in a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traff= ic across a trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enha= nced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I = can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRR= P being proposed which does the same.  

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

Phil 

From: Xuxi= aohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org"= <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 <= /span>

Hi all,

 

There had= been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data cente= r (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=A1=AFm considering whe= ther we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from t= he outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will= be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsi= ble for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a si= ngle subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default= gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routi= ng to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-ac= tive VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined = for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is wor= kable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exi= ts for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a m= ust, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there = any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is gu= aranteed?

 

Best rega= rds,

Xiaohu

 

 

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DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --Boundary_(ID_IknbUR1uKqX0KH4E9dDuuQ)-- From dunbar.ll@gmail.com Thu Aug 25 10:02:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E15A21F8AD8; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.937 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.937 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.345, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NTtAZsZxg3lY; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f44.google.com (mail-bw0-f44.google.com [209.85.214.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5DF21F8AD6; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bkar4 with SMTP id r4so2216461bka.31 for ; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=VEDo/snjBtHPNeHccRqgRn0hSjZl8fSVIaJyPkqgXH4=; b=qMyv4bP4n1yTLAV0bHjLV/9vxhCsAu4vKhixKnPza7xobr01qE5tZPSqOveMwge5ai N6BzzdmL4oAM2tOc7o7Z5yG/oZ85Vrgr+omdPKU4/6Bl3d71o9SwGhIvSXXh5jeSvnnx s6qbzvhkgQS2N9rJb+th+AOtHJtPCt6XasUmU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.141.12 with SMTP id k12mr12192bku.22.1314291835055; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.41.73 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:03:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725622@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725622@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:03:55 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [armd] Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one From: Linda Dunbar To: Xuxiaohu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cd5b8f5acd604ab5769c2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:04:31 -0700 Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" , "armd@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:02:46 -0000 --0015175cd5b8f5acd604ab5769c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xiao Hu, That is a very interesting proposal. Do you mean that there is a single ARP proxy which represents millions of VMs? All the packets destined to any of those "millions of VMs" will be rerouted to "the single ARP proxy"? Will this create too much pressure on this single point? How is your proposed approach comparing with SEATTLE's distributed approach= ? Linda Dunbar On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Xuxiaohu wrote: > Hi all,**** > > ** ** > > Another obvious advantage of host route based IP-only L2VPN (e.g., Virtua= l > Subnet) over VPLS, as a DCI solution, is to reduce the ARP table size on = DC > gateways by several order of magnitude. Assume there are millions of CE > hosts (i.e.,VMs) within a single VLAN/subnet, if VPLS is used as a DCI > solution, DC gateways (i.e., DC exit routers) would have to know millions= of > ARP entries corresponding to these VMs. In contrast, in the Virtual Subne= t > solution, DC gateways are directly connected to the PE routers of the > IP-only L2VPN which act as ARP proxies, MAC addresses of those ARP entrie= s > for VMs on DC gateways are identical (i.e., ARP Proxy=92s MAC). Thus thes= e > millions of ARP entries can be aggregated into one entry (1.0.0.0/8->ARP > proxy=92s MAC). That=92s to say, the exact-matching algorithm for ARP cac= he > lookup is changed to the longest-matching algorithm. Of course, there is = no > free lunch. The side-effect of this change is that DC gateways could send > out packets destined for non-existing VMs to the PE routers of that IP-on= ly > L2VPN. Fortunately, once those packets arrive at the PE routers of that > IP-only L2VPN, which in turn will drop them directly since there is no > matching routes for them. **** > > ** ** > > Since this topic is also interesting to ARMD WG, I copy this email to ARM= D. > **** > > ** ** > > Best regards,**** > > Xiaohu**** > > _______________________________________________ > armd mailing list > armd@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd > > --0015175cd5b8f5acd604ab5769c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Xiao Hu,
=A0
That is a very interesting proposal.
Do you mean that there is a single ARP proxy which represents millions= of VMs? All the packets destined to any of those "millions of VMs&quo= t; will be rerouted to "the single ARP proxy"? Will this create t= oo much pressure on this single point?
How is your proposed approach comparing with SEATTLE's distributed= approach?
=A0
Linda Dunbar
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com<= /a>> wrote:

Hi all,

=A0

Another obvious advantage of host route based IP-only L2VPN (e.g= ., Virtual Subnet) over VPLS, as a DCI solution, is to reduce the ARP table= size on DC gateways by several order of magnitude. Assume there are millio= ns of CE hosts (i.e.,VMs) within a single VLAN/subnet, if VPLS is used as a= DCI solution, DC gateways (i.e., DC exit routers) would have to know milli= ons of ARP entries corresponding to these VMs. In contrast, in the Virtual = Subnet solution, DC gateways are directly connected to the PE routers of th= e IP-only L2VPN which act as ARP proxies, MAC addresses of those ARP entrie= s for VMs on DC gateways are identical (i.e., ARP Proxy=92s MAC). Thus thes= e millions of ARP entries can be aggregated into one entry (1.0.0.0/8->ARP proxy=92s MAC). That= =92s to say, the exact-matching algorithm for ARP cache lookup is changed t= o the longest-matching algorithm. Of course, there is no free lunch. The si= de-effect of this change is that DC gateways could send out packets destine= d for non-existing VMs to the PE routers of that IP-only L2VPN. Fortunately= , once those packets arrive at the PE routers of that IP-only L2VPN, which = in turn will drop them directly since there is no matching routes for them.=

=A0

Since this topic is also interesting to ARMD WG, I copy this ema= il to ARMD.

=A0

Best regards,

Xiaohu


_________________= ______________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


--0015175cd5b8f5acd604ab5769c2-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Thu Aug 25 18:59:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2F621F86BE; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:59:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.716, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 60sRhodt7fVP; Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C1621F86C0; 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Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:00:23 +0800 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 02:00:22 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW2FybWRdIENvdWxkIG1pbGxpb25zIG9mIEFSUCBlbnRyaWVzIG9u?= =?gb2312?Q?_DC_gateways_be_reduced_to_one?= In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Linda Dunbar Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE7258BE@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_56762OkhtVRPuc8Wc3znzg)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [armd] Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one Thread-index: Acxi0w1AcibzuVsiSkK+GwRxBeP6pgAMt1qAACKD51A= X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725622@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" , "armd@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:59:14 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_56762OkhtVRPuc8Wc3znzg) Content-type: text/plain; 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 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Linda D= unbar [mailto:dunbar.ll@gmail.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C226=C8=D5 1:04
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: l2vpn@ietf.org; armd@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [armd] Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one=

 

Xiao Hu,

 

That is a very interesting prop= osal.

Do you mean that there is a sin= gle ARP proxy which represents millions of VMs? All the packets destined to= any of those "millions of VMs" will be rerouted to "the sin= gle ARP proxy"? Will this create too much pressure on this single point?

 = ;

Hi Linda,<= o:p>

 = ;

It=A1=AFs = just an example. In practice, if the pressure on the L2VPN PE router (if Vi= rtual Subnet is used for DCI) within the DC is too large, you could connect the DC exit router to multiple L2VPN PE routers to achieve load-ba= lancing. For example, the traffic within VLAN 1-1000 is forwarded through P= E-1 of that L2VPN,  and the traffic within VLAN 1001-2000 is forwarded= through PE-2 of that L2VPN=A1=AD  Such load-balancing usage is very common no matter what special L2 technology (e.g., STP, SPB,= TRILL,VPLS =A1=AD) is used.

 = ;

How is your proposed approach c= omparing with SEATTLE's distributed approach?

 = ;

SEATTLE is= one of the many MAC-routing based L2VPN solutions. With any MAC-routing ba= sed L2VPN, the gateway router should and would get the real MAC addresses of the requested hosts in ARP resolution. Since these MAC ad= dresses are not identical, the ARP cache entries on the gateway router coul= d not be aggregated at all.

 = ;

Xiaohu

 

Linda Dunbar<= /p>

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:47 PM= , Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi all,

 

Another obvious advantage of host route based= IP-only L2VPN (e.g., Virtual Subnet) over VPLS, as a DCI solution, is to r= educe the ARP table size on DC gateways by several order of magnitude. Assume there are millions of CE hosts (i.e.= ,VMs) within a single VLAN/subnet, if VPLS is used as a DCI solution, DC ga= teways (i.e., DC exit routers) would have to know millions of ARP entries c= orresponding to these VMs. In contrast, in the Virtual Subnet solution, DC gateways are directly connected to the = PE routers of the IP-only L2VPN which act as ARP proxies, MAC addresses of = those ARP entries for VMs on DC gateways are identical (i.e., ARP Proxy=A1= =AFs MAC). Thus these millions of ARP entries can be aggregated into one entry (1.0.0.0/8->ARP proxy=A1=AFs MAC). That=A1=AFs to say= , the exact-matching algorithm for ARP cache lookup is changed to the longe= st-matching algorithm. Of course, there is no free lunch. The side-effect of this change is that DC gateways could send out p= ackets destined for non-existing VMs to the PE routers of that IP-only L2VP= N. Fortunately, once those packets arrive at the PE routers of that IP-only= L2VPN, which in turn will drop them directly since there is no matching routes for them.

 

Since this topic is also interesting to ARMD = WG, I copy this email to ARMD.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

=
_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd

 

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14.01.0270.001; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:09:49 +0800 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:09:50 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725802@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ADpfy5SWLfmbCzGKWeVvUg)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution Thread-index: AcxhQ9su3po2u9MvRNyXrK7IWrGQbAACmPcAACrH5oAAZTQpkA== X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: B+M2 CGkU Ct8/ Dr6q DsIj D7JB Ehbg EvZf E0BS FDOe FOH5 F7He Gkd3 IJpV ITnN IaOA; 1; bAAyAHYAcABuAEAAaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {34CF543D-395E-4DC2-9395-599AE14E9A27}; eAB1AHgAaQBhAG8AaAB1AEAAaAB1AGEAdwBlAGkALgBjAG8AbQA=; Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:21:50 GMT; 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Hi all,=

&n= bsp;

The att= ached is a concrete example explaining the following process.

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Xiaohu<= /span>

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C224=C8=D5 10:59
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Phil Bedard'; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi Phil= ,

&n= bsp;

If I un= derstand it correctly, the following approaches you mentioned are almost pr= oprietary approaches which require DC exit routers in geographically disper= sed locations are provided by a single vendor.

&n= bsp;

I found= there was a very simple STANDARD approach to the same goal when host route= based IP-only L2VPN service (e.g., Virtual Subnet http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-05) is used for DCI. For example, when incomin= g traffic from the Internet enters a DC, source IP addresses of the traffic will be NATed on the DC gateway. Notes = that here DC exit gateways of geographically dispersed DCs are configured w= ith different IP address pools without any overlapping. In addition, the co= rresponding routes for the above address pools are advertised by the DC gateways to their connected PE rout= ers of the IP-only L2VPN respectively. Thus, when the outgoing traffic dest= ined to the Internet arrives at its local PE router of the IP-only L2VPN, t= hat PE router could forward the traffic according to the matching routes for the above address pools. In t= his way, active-active DC exits can be achieved easily in the case where pa= th symmetry is required.  

&n= bsp;

The att= ached is a concrete example explaining the above process.  =

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Xiaohu =  

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Phil Bedard [mailto:bedard.phil@gmail.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C223=C8=D5 20:37
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Most of the newer security devices including FW, IDS, IPS have the a= bility to deal with asymmetric traffic flows when deployed in pairs, either= through clustering where traffic is shunted across a dedicated inter-chassis link or state table syncrhonization. &nbs= p;  Active/Active gateways are being achieved these days through eithe= r virtual chassis or multi-chassis link aggregation.   Some vendors ta= ke one approach or the other while others support both approaches.    We have deployed equipment in a mutual (back= to back) MC-LAG configuration which balances traffic in both directions. &= nbsp; 

 

The old way of active/active balancing at L3 would be use multiple V= RRP groups with some hosts using one gateway and other hosts using the othe= r gateway, but doesn't guarantee symmetry.  If you have multilayer devices supporting virtual L3 interfaces with= in a L2 domain MAC learning can take care of the asymmetry by sending traff= ic across a trunk between the two devices.  GLBP from Cisco is an enha= nced version of VRRP/HSRP which hands out multiple virtual MAC addresses which allows outbound L3 load balancing, I = can't remember it being written into an information RFC or a version of VRR= P being proposed which does the same.  

 

 

Phil 

From: Xuxi= aohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>=
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:10:16 +0000
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org"= <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Active-active DC exits in the DCI solution

 

Hi all,

 

There had= been a lot of discussion about active-active multi-homing for a data cente= r (DC) site in the layer2 DCI solution before. Now I=A1=AFm considering whe= ther we could further achieve active-active DC exits when considering route optimization for traffic routing to/from t= he outside of DCs (e.g., the Internet). In a normal case, each DC site will= be connected to a default gateway (i.e., DC exit router) which is responsi= ble for forwarding traffic routing to/from the outside. However, since these default gateways are within a si= ngle subnet due to the layer2 DCI usage, normally there is only one default= gateway router (acting as VRRP master) is allowed to forward traffic routi= ng to/from the outside. This is obviously not optimal from the perspective of WAN bandwidth utilization.

 

Active-ac= tive VRRP has been proposed in the above case so that the traffic destined = for the outside could be forwarded by the local DC exit router. This is wor= kable when path symmetry is not required. However, in most cases, firewall or NAT devices are deployed at the DC exi= ts for the traffic to/from the outside. In such cases, path symmetry is a m= ust, as a result, active-active VRRP is not available anymore.

 

Is there = any better idea to achieve active-active DC exits while path symmetry is gu= aranteed?

 

Best rega= rds,

Xiaohu

 

 

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--Boundary_(ID_ADpfy5SWLfmbCzGKWeVvUg)-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Sat Aug 27 03:01:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB4221F86C1; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 03:01:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.844 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.844 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.522, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qoddTMu1wW1; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 03:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) 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([169.254.8.40]) by szxeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.89.141]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:02:01 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:02:00 +0000 From: Xuxiaohu Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW2FybWRdIENvdWxkIG1pbGxpb25zIG9mIEFSUCBlbnRyaWVzIG9u?= =?gb2312?Q?_DC_gateways_be_reduced_to_one?= X-Originating-IP: [10.110.98.53] To: Xuxiaohu , Linda Dunbar Message-id: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725AF8@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ZhAyDDwmGEGwkrXnmhzZcQ)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Thread-topic: [armd] Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one Thread-index: Acxi0w1AcibzuVsiSkK+GwRxBeP6pgAMt1qAACKD51AARFKasA== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE725622@szxeml525-mbs.china.huawei.com> Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" , "armd@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:01:27 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_ZhAyDDwmGEGwkrXnmhzZcQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpBbiB1cGRhdGVkIHZlcnNpb24gb2YgVmlydHVhbCBTdWJuZXQgY2FuIGJlIGZv dW5kIGF0IGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXh1LXZpcnR1YWwtc3VibmV0 LTA2LiBWaXJ0dWFsIFN1Ym5ldCBpcyBhIGhvc3Qgcm91dGUgYmFzZWQgSVAtb25seSBMMlZQTiB3 aGljaCBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCBhcyBhIHNjYWxhYmxlIGFwcHJvYWNoIGZvciBkYXRhIGNlbnRlciBp bnRlcmNvbm5lY3QuIENvbXBhcmVkIHRvIE1BQyBmb3J3YXJkaW5nIGJhc2VkIEwyVlBOIGFwcHJv YWNoZXMsIFZTIGNvdWxkIG9mZmVyIHlvdSBtYW55IGRlc2lyYWJsZSBiZW5lZml0cyB3aGljaCBh cmUgbWVudGlvbmVkIGluIGEgc2VjdGlvbiBvZiBDb21wYXJpc29uIHdpdGggVlBMUy4NCg0KQW55 IGNvbW1lbnRzIGFyZSB3ZWxjb21lLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQpYaWFvaHUNCg0Kt6K8/sjL OiBYdXhpYW9odQ0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTHE6jjUwjI2yNUgMTA6MTINCsrVvP7IyzogJ0xpbmRh 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Hi all,

 = ;

An updated= version of Virtual Subnet can be found at http://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06. Virtual Subnet is a host = route based IP-only L2VPN which can be used as a scalable approach for data= center interconnect. Compared to MAC forwarding based L2VPN approaches, VS could offer you many desirable b= enefits which are mentioned in a section of Comparison with VPLS.

 = ;

Any commen= ts are welcome.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaoh= u
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C226=C8=D5 10:12
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Linda Dunbar'
=B3=AD=CB=CD: l2vpn@ietf.org; armd@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: =B4=F0=B8=B4: [armd] Could millions of ARP en= tries on DC gateways be reduced to one

 

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Linda D= unbar [mailto:dunbar.ll@gmail.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA8=D4=C226=C8=D5 1:04
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: l2vpn@ietf.org; armd@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [armd] Could millions of ARP entries on DC gateways be reduced to one=

 

Xiao Hu,

 

That is a very interesting prop= osal.

Do you mean that there is a sin= gle ARP proxy which represents millions of VMs? All the packets destined to= any of those "millions of VMs" will be rerouted to "the sin= gle ARP proxy"? Will this create too much pressure on this single point?

 = ;

Hi Linda,<= o:p>

 = ;

It=A1=AFs = just an example. In practice, if the pressure on the L2VPN PE router (if Vi= rtual Subnet is used for DCI) within the DC is too large, you could connect the DC exit router to multiple L2VPN PE routers to achieve load-ba= lancing. For example, the traffic within VLAN 1-1000 is forwarded through P= E-1 of that L2VPN,  and the traffic within VLAN 1001-2000 is forwarded= through PE-2 of that L2VPN=A1=AD  Such load-balancing usage is very common no matter what special L2 technology (e.g., STP, SPB,= TRILL,VPLS =A1=AD) is used.

 = ;

How is your proposed approach c= omparing with SEATTLE's distributed approach?

 = ;

SEATTLE is= one of the many MAC-routing based L2VPN solutions. With any MAC-routing ba= sed L2VPN, the gateway router should and would get the real MAC addresses of the requested hosts in ARP resolution. Since these MAC ad= dresses are not identical, the ARP cache entries on the gateway router coul= d not be aggregated at all.

 = ;

Xiaohu

 

Linda Dunbar<= /p>

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:47 PM= , Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi all,

 

Another obvious advantage of host route based= IP-only L2VPN (e.g., Virtual Subnet) over VPLS, as a DCI solution, is to r= educe the ARP table size on DC gateways by several order of magnitude. Assume there are millions of CE hosts (i.e.= ,VMs) within a single VLAN/subnet, if VPLS is used as a DCI solution, DC ga= teways (i.e., DC exit routers) would have to know millions of ARP entries c= orresponding to these VMs. In contrast, in the Virtual Subnet solution, DC gateways are directly connected to the = PE routers of the IP-only L2VPN which act as ARP proxies, MAC addresses of = those ARP entries for VMs on DC gateways are identical (i.e., ARP Proxy=A1= =AFs MAC). Thus these millions of ARP entries can be aggregated into one entry (1.0.0.0/8->ARP proxy=A1=AFs MAC). That=A1=AFs to say= , the exact-matching algorithm for ARP cache lookup is changed to the longe= st-matching algorithm. Of course, there is no free lunch. The side-effect of this change is that DC gateways could send out p= ackets destined for non-existing VMs to the PE routers of that IP-only L2VP= N. Fortunately, once those packets arrive at the PE routers of that IP-only= L2VPN, which in turn will drop them directly since there is no matching routes for them.

 

Since this topic is also interesting to ARMD = WG, I copy this email to ARMD.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

=
_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd

 

--Boundary_(ID_ZhAyDDwmGEGwkrXnmhzZcQ)-- From iesg-secretary@ietf.org Mon Aug 29 06:54:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39AF821F8B3B; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:54:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EfBPX2UuxEpb; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C8021F8AF5; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Subject: Last Call: (ARP Mediation for IP Interworking of Layer 2 VPN) to Proposed Standard X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.60 Message-ID: <20110829135444.15331.68564.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:54:44 -0700 Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:54:45 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks WG (l2vpn) to consider the following document: - 'ARP Mediation for IP Interworking of Layer 2 VPN' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2011-09-12. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract The Virtual Private Wire Service (VPWS) [RFC4664] provides point-to-point connections between pairs of Customer Edge (CE) devices. It does so by binding two Attachment Circuits (each connecting a CE device with a Provider Edge, PE, device) to a pseudowire (connecting the two PEs). In general, the Attachment Circuits must be of the same technology (e.g., both Ethernet, both ATM), and the pseudowire must carry the frames of that technology. However, if it is known that the frames' payload consists solely of IP datagrams, it is possible to provide a point-to-point connection in which the pseudowire connects Attachment Circuits of different technologies. This requires the PEs to perform a function known as "ARP Mediation". ARP Mediation refers to the process of resolving Layer 2 addresses when different resolution protocols are used on either Attachment Circuit. The methods described in this document are applicable even when the CEs run a routing protocol between them, as long as the routing protocol runs over IP. The file can be obtained via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l2vpn-arp-mediation/ IESG discussion can be tracked via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l2vpn-arp-mediation/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From wwwrun@ietfa.amsl.com Tue Aug 30 09:36:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l2vpn@ietf.org Delivered-To: l2vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 340F721F8CD7; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:36:28 -0700 (PDT) From: IESG Secretary To: IETF Announcement list Subject: WG Review: Recharter of Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20110830163628.340F721F8CD7@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org, giheron@cisco.com X-BeenThere: l2vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:36:28 -0000 A modified charter has been submitted for the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) working group in the Routing Area of the IETF. The IESG has not made any determination as yet. The modified charter is provided below for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by Tuesday, September 6, 2011. Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks (l2vpn) ---------------------------------------- Last updated: 2011-08-30 Current Status: Active Chairs: Nabil Bitar Giles Heron Routing Area Directors: Stewart Bryant Adrian Farrel Routing Area Advisor: Stewart Bryant Mailing Lists: General Discussion: l2vpn@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l2vpn Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/maillist.html Description of Working Group: The L2VPN working group is responsible for defining and specifying a limited number of solutions for supporting provider-provisioned Layer-2 Virtual Private Networks (L2VPNs). It will also address requirements driven by cloud computing services and data centers as they apply to Layer-2 VPN services. Layer-2 VPNs defined by L2VPN operate over pseudowires (PWs) as defined by the PWE3 WG or over IP or MPLS PSN tunnels. A L2VPN emulates a "native" service over a PSN that is adequately faithful to, but may not be entirely indistinguishable from the native service itself. Further, following in the "edge-to-edge" nature of the service, the L2VPN WG will not define any mechanisms which exert control over the underlying PSN. When necessary it may, however, recommend or require the use of existing PSN QoS and path control mechanisms between the PEs which provide the L2VPN connectivity. Layer-2 VPNs comprise the following: 1. Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) -- A Layer-2 service that emulates a switched Ethernet (V)LAN across a PSN. 2. Virtual Private Wire Service (VPWS) -- A Layer-2 service that provides point-to-point connectivity for a variety of link layers, including Frame Relay, ATM, Ethernet, PPP, etc., across a PSN. 3. Virtual Private Multicast Service (VPMS) -- A Layer-2 service that provides point-to-multipoint connectivity for a variety of link layers across a PSN. 4. IP-only L2VPN, an IP-only service over a PSN. The WG will address two specific types of IP-only L2VPN: a) Point-to-point Layer-2 VPN. This service is similar to VPWS, but also supports heterogenous Attachment Circuits at either end of a single point-to-point service. b) Multipoint-to-multipoint Layer-2 VPN. This service is similar to VPLS, but learns IP and MAC address bindings from ARPs and broadcast/multicast IP packets. 5. Ethernet VPN (E-VPN) - An enhanced Layer-2 service that emulates an Ethernet (V)LAN across a PSN. E-VPN supports load-sharing across multiple connections from a Layer-2 site to an L2VPN service. E-VPN is primarily targeted to support large-scale L2VPNs with resiliency requirements not satisfied by other L2VPN solutions. 6. E-Tree, a Layer-2 service defined by the MEF, which provides connectivity between one or more root nodes and one or more leaf nodes, with the restriction that leaf nodes may only communicate with root node(s) (and not with each other). L2VPNs will make use of existing IETF specified mechanisms unless there are technical reasons why the existing mechanisms are insufficient or unnecessary. The L2VPN WG is responsible for specification of the discovery and membership of PEs participating in a Layer-2 VPN as well as the membership of CE devices for a specific instance of an L2VPN. The L2VPN WG will provide extensions of existing protocols that will be discussed in protocol-specific WGs. In particular, the L2VPN WG may define extensions to pseudowire management mechanisms for VPLS. Those extensions will be reviewed by the PWE3 WG to ensure they are aligned with the overall design/architecture of PWE3. The L2VPN WG will not define new encapsulations, control, or resiliency mechanisms specifically related to pseudowires. Furthermore, when the L2VPN solution is based on PWs, the L2VPN WG will not define protocol inter-working between an L2VPN and native service Layer-2 OAM or resiliency mechanisms. The L2VPN WG may define how to operate native service-layer control, OAM or resiliency mechanisms on top of an L2VPN. In addition, it may define native data plane and/or control plane interworking between an L2VPN and an associated native Layer-2 service. The L2VPN WG scope includes the following: 1. Discovery of PEs participating in a Layer-2 VPN and the associated topology required for connectivity of the VPLS, VPWS, VPMS or E-VPN service. 2. Signaling of information related to the discovery and membership of PEs within a L2VPN. These procedures must use PWE3 control and management procedures, or define requirements for extensions of PWE3 protocols to suit the needs of an L2VPN, when the L2VPN operates over PWs. Once those requirements have been reviewed by the L2VPN WG, they should be provided to the PWE3 WG to derive solutions. 3. MIBs for Layer-2 VPN solutions. 4. Specification of requirements, framework and solutions that facilitate Operations Administration and Management (OAM) of any type of L2VPN within the scope of the L2VPN Working Group. 5. Mechanisms to permit optimization of multicast data traffic within an L2VPN. 6. If transport does not involve PWs, mechanisms that support load-balancing/multi-pathing between PEs interconnecting a Layer-2 service using an L2VPN across the PSN. 7. requirements for the multi-homing of CEs to several VPLS or E-VPN PEs, inclusive of active/backup and active/ active (load-sharing) configurations. Based on these requirements define VPLS or E-VPN control plane solutions for achieving fast convergence after failure of an active path in the PSN or on the AC side. 8. Enhancements to increase the scalability of the Control Plane and Data Plane of L2VPN PE nodes, and of core nodes that provide transport services for L2VPN. 9. Requirements and solutions for Auto-Discovery and Signaling of Inter-AS L2VPNs, in addition to Inter-AS solutions for multicast-optimized L2VPNs. 10. Requirements and solutions for supporting "E-Tree" services using VPLS. Milestones: Done Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPLS Done Submit an I-D describing MIB for VPWS Done Submit an I-D on OAM requirements for VPLS Done Submit an I-D on OAM requirements for VPWS Done Submit L2 requirements to IESG for publication as Informational RFC Done Submit L2 framework to IESG for publication as Informational RFC Done Identify VPLS and VPWS solutions for the WG Done Submit VPLS solution documents to IESG Done Submit VPWS solution documents to IESG Done Submit Auto-Discovery and Signaling for Intra-AS and Inter-AS VPLS and VPWS Layer-2 VPNs Oct 2011 Submit IP-only L2VPN solution documents to IESG Nov 2011 Submit OAM solutions for VPWS to IESG Nov 2011 Submit OAM solutions for VPLS to IESG Nov 2011 Submit signaling solution for multicast-optimized VPLS to IESG Nov 2011 Submit I-D on Virtual Private Multicast Service (VPMS) requirements to IESG Nov 2011 Submit MIB for VPLS to IESG Nov 2011 Submit MIB for VPWS to IESG Mar 2012 Submit scalability solutions for VPLS Data-Plane to IESG Mar 2012 Submit scalability solutions for VPLS Control-Plane to IESG Mar 2012 Submit E-Tree requirements/framework to IESG Jul 2012 Submit MIB for IP-only L2VPN to IESG Jul 2012 Submit OAM solutions for IP-only L2VPN to IESG Jul 2012 Submit Auto-Discovery solution for VPMS to IESG Jul 2012 Submit VPLS service convergence improvement solutions to IESG Jul 2012 Submit VPLS multi-homing solutions to IESG Jul 2012 Submit E-Tree solution to IESG Jul 2012 Submit E-VPN requirements/framework to IESG Nov 2012 Submit E-Tree OAM to IESG Dec 2012 Submit E-Tree MIB to IESG Nov 2012 Submit E-VPN solution to IESG Mar 2013 Submit E-VPN OAM to IESG Apr 2013 Submit E-VPN MIB to IESG