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Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 09:58:47 +0200
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From: "Rafi Ram" <RafiR@orckit.com>
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Yes, support.=20

Rafi
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:32:34 +0100
> From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
> To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
> Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
> Message-ID: <CAAA8662.EEB4%giles.heron@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=3D"US-ASCII"
>=20
> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
>=20
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>=20
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have
a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by
March
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.
If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>=20
> Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Nabil & Giles


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>Rafi</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'><br><tt>&gt; =
----------------------------------------------------------------------</t=
t><br><tt>&gt; </tt><br><tt>&gt; Message: 1</tt><br><tt>&gt; Date: Thu, =
29 Sep 2011 20:32:34 +0100</tt><br><tt>&gt; From: Giles Heron =
&lt;giles.heron@gmail.com&gt;</tt><br><tt>&gt; To: =
&lt;l2vpn@ietf.org&gt;</tt><br><tt>&gt; Subject: WG adoption of =
draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?</tt><br><tt>&gt; Message-ID: =
&lt;CAAA8662.EEB4%giles.heron@gmail.com&gt;</tt><br><tt>&gt; =
Content-Type: text/plain; &nbsp; =
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is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:</tt><br><tt>&gt; =
</tt><br><tt>&gt; =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04</tt><br><tt=
>&gt; </tt><br><tt>&gt; should be accepted as an L2VPN WG =
draft.</tt><br><tt>&gt; </tt><br><tt>&gt; Now that we've adopted the new =
charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a</tt><br><tt>&gt; milestone =
item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March</tt><br><tt>&gt; 2012. &nbsp;If you think this draft is a good =
starting point for those</tt><br><tt>&gt; requirements then please reply =
indicating your support for the draft. &nbsp;If</tt><br><tt>&gt; not =
then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft =
shouldn't</tt><br><tt>&gt; be adopted - which we can then =
debate.</tt><br><tt>&gt; </tt><br><tt>&gt; Please respond by Thursday =
13th of October.</tt><br><tt>&gt; </tt><br><tt>&gt; =
Thanks!</tt><br><tt>&gt; </tt><br><tt>&gt; Nabil &amp; =
Giles</tt></span><span =
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From DanielC@orckit.com  Sun Oct  2 00:58:35 2011
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Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 10:01:33 +0200
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From: "Daniel Cohn" <DanielC@orckit.com>
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Support

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Giles Heron
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:33 PM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by
March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.
If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
shouldn't
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles



From jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com  Sun Oct  2 10:01:16 2011
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From: Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 13:04:10 -0400
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
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Yes/support
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>Of Giles Heron
>Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:33 PM
>To: l2vpn@ietf.org
>Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
>
>This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
>
>should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>
>Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
>milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by
>March
>2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
>requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.
>If
>not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
>shouldn't
>be adopted - which we can then debate.
>
>Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Nabil & Giles
>
>


From marc.lasserre@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Oct  3 01:05:22 2011
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From: "LASSERRE, MARC (MARC)" <marc.lasserre@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 10:08:16 +0200
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Thread-Topic: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
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Support.

Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:33 PM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn'=
t
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles



From trafique@above.net  Mon Oct  3 08:49:49 2011
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From: "Rafique, Tariq" <trafique@above.net>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Thread-Topic: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
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Support.

Tariq

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:33 PM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn'=
t
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles



From narten@us.ibm.com  Mon Oct  3 13:23:33 2011
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To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: FWD: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:26:32 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN's
charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven't followed
this WG in recent years.

In any case, I'd welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is
in-scope for this WG.

Thomas

------- Forwarded Message

From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400
Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization

A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in
the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3
(IP) overlay network.

As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,
including:

    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00

I've put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on
the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution
specifics.  See:

    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.txt
    
There have also been some related vendor announcements and
presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are
surely others). For example:

     http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/

     http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_paper_c11-685115.html

     http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for-the-cloud.html
     
     http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442T

The list is called nvo3, for "Network Virtualization Over L3", aka
N-Vee-Oh-3 (we'll see how well that acronym sticks...).

I've put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can
explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.

Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at

     List address: nvo3@ietf.org
     Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.html
     To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3

I look forward to your participation!

Thomas

_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
Ietf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

------- End of Forwarded Message

From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Oct  3 14:48:05 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:51:05 -0500
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Thomas,

The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work related to =
DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed requirements and solut=
ion initiatives that prompted the change - see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (re=
quirements, solutions) and VM mobility.=20

The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP tunnel=
s. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group has accumulated=
 a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all the VPN/multi-tenancy c=
omponents, including L2/IP solution. Any DC related solutions need to also =
interoperate with existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Ser=
vices to VPN customers.=20

So I think these initiatives are in L2VPN scope and should be discussed her=
e to better understand what are the deltas from existing VPN technologies.=
=20

Florin

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of T=
homas Narten
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 1:27 PM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: FWD: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtu=
alization

FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN's
charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven't followed
this WG in recent years.

In any case, I'd welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is
in-scope for this WG.

Thomas

------- Forwarded Message

From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400
Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualiza=
tion

A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in
the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3
(IP) overlay network.

As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,
including:

    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00

I've put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on
the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution
specifics.  See:

    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-=
00.txt
   =20
There have also been some related vendor announcements and
presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are
surely others). For example:

     http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/

     http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/whit=
e_paper_c11-685115.html

     http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking=
-for-the-cloud.html
    =20
     http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442T

The list is called nvo3, for "Network Virtualization Over L3", aka
N-Vee-Oh-3 (we'll see how well that acronym sticks...).

I've put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can
explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.

Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at

     List address: nvo3@ietf.org
     Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.ht=
ml
     To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3

I look forward to your participation!

Thomas

_______________________________________________
Ietf mailing list
Ietf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

------- End of Forwarded Message

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Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
From: Benson Schliesser <bschlies@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:43:44 -0500
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To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, l2vpn@ietf.org
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I don't disagree with Florin's comments, but I'm not certain the NVO3 =
initiative is best-served within L2VPN's scope. The L2VPN charter says =
that "Layer-2 VPNs comprise" an enumerated list of topics. While there =
may be overlap, it seems that NVO3 would deal with a somewhat new topic. =
 Whether this is best done through a re-charter of L2VPN or =
establishment of a new WG, is not clear to me - but for the sake of =
argument here are a couple considerations:

For starters, the current L2VPN charter focuses on =
"provider-provisioned" which may not apply to NVO3.  This is admittedly =
a vague line of division, but it may be useful in thinking about the =
distinction between these areas of work.

More specifically, while NVO3 solutions might emulate native L2 service, =
they may in fact be significantly different in capability and operation. =
 I'd suggest that, for example, the mechanisms by which address =
resolution happen might be very different - both within an overlay, as =
well as between the overlay and underlying PSN. This might constrain the =
types of traffic that can be carried by the overlay. Or maybe not. This =
is something that NVO3 would need to investigate.

Cheers,
-Benson


On Oct 3, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) wrote:

> Thomas,
>=20
> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work =
related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed =
requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change - see =
drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM mobility.=20
>=20
> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP =
tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group has =
accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all the =
VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC related =
solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as Cloud Provider =
want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.=20
>=20
> So I think these initiatives are in L2VPN scope and should be =
discussed here to better understand what are the deltas from existing =
VPN technologies.=20
>=20
> Florin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Thomas Narten
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 1:27 PM
> To: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: FWD: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 =
Virtualization
>=20
> FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN's
> charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven't followed
> this WG in recent years.
>=20
> In any case, I'd welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is
> in-scope for this WG.
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
> ------- Forwarded Message
>=20
> From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
> To: ietf@ietf.org
> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400
> Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 =
Virtualization
>=20
> A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in
> the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3
> (IP) overlay network.
>=20
> As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,
> including:
>=20
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00
>=20
> I've put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on
> the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution
> specifics.  See:
>=20
>    =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.=
txt
>=20
> There have also been some related vendor announcements and
> presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are
> surely others). For example:
>=20
>     http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/
>=20
>     =
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_pa=
per_c11-685115.html
>=20
>     =
http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for=
-the-cloud.html
>=20
>     http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442T
>=20
> The list is called nvo3, for "Network Virtualization Over L3", aka
> N-Vee-Oh-3 (we'll see how well that acronym sticks...).
>=20
> I've put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can
> explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.
>=20
> Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at
>=20
>     List address: nvo3@ietf.org
>     Archive: =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.html
>     To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3
>=20
> I look forward to your participation!
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> Ietf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>=20
> ------- End of Forwarded Message


From narten@us.ibm.com  Mon Oct  3 16:56:13 2011
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To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Comments: In-reply-to "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com> message dated "Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:51:05 -0500."
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:58:47 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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"Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com> writes:

> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>  related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>  requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>  see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>  mobility.

Can you list which drafts these are?

For the EVPN, that would presumably be:

draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt

What drafts relate to VM mobility?

> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.

Maybe, maybe not.

Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the L2VPN
work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts that
connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).

That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is they
are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.

VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
hypervisors.

Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches and
virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have a
lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
way into switches and hypervisors.

Does this make sense?

Thomas

From paul@unbehagen.net  Mon Oct  3 17:00:49 2011
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From: Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 18:03:41 -0600
To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs. Wheth=
er or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also be consider=
ed an overlay over IP.=20

--
Paul Unbehagen


On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com> writes:=

>=20
>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>> mobility.
>=20
> Can you list which drafts these are?
>=20
> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>=20
> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>=20
> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>=20
>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
>> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
>> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
>> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
>> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
>> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
>=20
> Maybe, maybe not.
>=20
> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the L2VPN
> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts that
> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>=20
> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is they
> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>=20
> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> hypervisors.
>=20
> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches and
> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have a
> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> way into switches and hypervisors.
>=20
> Does this make sense?
>=20
> Thomas

From narten@us.ibm.com  Mon Oct  3 17:08:23 2011
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To: Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Comments: In-reply-to Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net> message dated "Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:03:41 -0600."
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:10:48 -0400
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So, let me try and separate this into two issues, so we don't mix
things.

1) Yes, L2VPNs are a form of overlays. Overlays are a broad
concept. So we can have a discussion as to whether the current charter
already allows for this kind of work to be discussed here, at least in
principle and based on what the charter allows. I gather at least some
people are saying yes.

2) The work that is being proposed here seems very different from what
the L2VPN WG has worked on in the past, or is actually working on
today (or planning on working on based on the recent recharter). Or am
I mistaken? What existing or planned work is this similar to?

Thomas


From jdrake@juniper.net  Mon Oct  3 17:18:57 2011
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:16:48 -0700
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Thomas,

I have trouble understanding your previous email but your BoF announcement =
listed a number of drafts and these drafts all clearly appear to be within =
the scope of the L2VPN charter.

Thanks,

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Thomas Narten
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 8:11 PM
> To: Paul Unbehagen
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
>=20
> So, let me try and separate this into two issues, so we don't mix
> things.
>=20
> 1) Yes, L2VPNs are a form of overlays. Overlays are a broad
> concept. So we can have a discussion as to whether the current charter
> already allows for this kind of work to be discussed here, at least in
> principle and based on what the charter allows. I gather at least some
> people are saying yes.
>=20
> 2) The work that is being proposed here seems very different from what
> the L2VPN WG has worked on in the past, or is actually working on
> today (or planning on working on based on the recent recharter). Or am
> I mistaken? What existing or planned work is this similar to?
>=20
> Thomas


From yuqun.cao@gmail.com  Mon Oct  3 18:26:23 2011
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From: "Sam Cao" <yuqun.cao@gmail.com>
To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
References: <mailman.4850.1317344524.2940.l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 09:29:31 +0800
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I support this.

Yuqun (Sam) Cao
E-mail: Yuqun.cao@gmail.com=20

-----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
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=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C230=C8=D5 9:02
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: l2vpn@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: L2vpn Digest, Vol 88, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt? (Giles Heron)
   2. Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt? (Simon Delord)
   3. Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt? (Rogers, Josh)
   4. Re:  WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
      (william.zayas@fibercrossing.net)
   5. RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt? (Raymond Key)
   6. Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
      (Mallette, Edwin)
   7. RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt? (Mach Chen)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:32:34 +0100
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID: <CAAA8662.EEB4%giles.heron@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"US-ASCII"

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft =
shouldn't
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 05:13:31 +0800
From: Simon Delord <simon.delord@gmail.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID:
	<CAH64RtkrYMdR8eQSMKs9ggci1T-5dZdkNq3_F8VBDj9VfLJX1w@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

support,
Simon

2011/9/30 Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>

> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
>
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have =
a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
> shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>
> Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Nabil & Giles
>
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:17:34 -0400
From: "Rogers, Josh" <josh.rogers@twcable.com>
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID: <CAAA4A65.2609F%josh.rogers@twcable.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"

I support it.

Josh



From:  Simon Delord <simon.delord@gmail.com>
Date:  Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:13:31 -0400
To:  Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" =
<l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?


support,Simon

2011/9/30 Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
shouldn't
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles








This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject =
to
copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely =
for
the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are =
not
the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the
contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and =
may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the
sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of =
this
E-mail and any printout.


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:59:54 +0000
From: william.zayas@fibercrossing.net
To: "Rogers, Josh" <josh.rogers@twcable.com>, l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re:  WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID: <W3355022565236091317333594@webmail9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"


Support.



Obrigado..:)



-----Original Message-----
From: Rogers, Josh [mailto:josh.rogers@twcable.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 05:17 PM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?

I support it. Josh From: Simon Delord Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:13:31 =
-0400
To: Giles Heron , "l2vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: WG adoption of
draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt? support,Simon 2011/9/30 Giles Heron =
This is
a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04 should be
accepted as an L2VPN WG draft. Now that we've adopted the new charter =
E-Tree
is in scope, and we have a milestone item to submit a requirements draft =
for
E-Tree to IESG by March 2012. If you think this draft is a good starting
point for those requirements then please reply indicating your support =
for
the draft. If not then please reply giving some reasons why you think =
this
draft shouldn't be adopted - which we can then debate. Please respond by
Thursday 13th of October. Thanks! Nabil & Giles This E-mail and any of =
its
attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which =
is
privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belongi
 ng to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of =
the
individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the =
intended
recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any =
dissemination,
distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of =
and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. =
If
you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender =
immediately
and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any
printout.=20
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:51:22 +1030
From: Raymond Key <raymond.key@ieee.org>
To: <giles.heron@gmail.com>, <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID: <SNT123-W30CC15D4D2BDDDC2B632A6F4F70@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"


I support.
Raymond
=20

> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:32:34 +0100
> Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
> From: giles.heron@gmail.com
> To: l2vpn@ietf.org
>=20
> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
>=20
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>=20
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have =
a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March
> 2012. If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft. =
If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>=20
> Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Nabil & Giles
>=20
>=20
 		 	   		 =20
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:36:35 -0400
From: "Mallette, Edwin" <Edwin.Mallette@bhnis.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org"
	<l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID: <CAAA8744.17EB6%edwin.mallette@bhnis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"

/Support

Ed

On 9/29/11 3:32 PM, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

>This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
>
>should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>
>Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have =
a
>milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March
>2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
>requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
>not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
>shouldn't
>be adopted - which we can then debate.
>
>Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Nabil & Giles
>
>


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain information that is
privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you =
are
not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify the sender
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 00:54:15 +0000
From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org"
	<l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID:
=09
<F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE207D7143F@SZXEML511-MBX.china.huawei.com>=

=09
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

Support!

Best regards,
Mach

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Giles Heron
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 3:33 AM
> To: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
>=20
> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
>=20
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>=20
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have =
a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by =
March
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>=20
> Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Nabil & Giles
>=20



------------------------------

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End of L2vpn Digest, Vol 88, Issue 10
*************************************


From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Oct  3 19:49:07 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:52:05 -0500
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Thomas,

The challenges described in the drafts are definitely in scope for L2VPN an=
d based on that it makes sense to do the initial analysis in L2VPN to ident=
ify the overlap. If it looks like the work is diverging substantially from =
the L2VPN scope then a BoF creation is the logical way to go.=20

See in-line for answers to your questions/comments...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Narten [mailto:narten@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 4:59 PM
> To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com> writes=
:
>=20
> > The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> >  related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> >  requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> >  see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> >  mobility.
>=20
> Can you list which drafts these are?
>=20
> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>=20
> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>=20

Yes...

> What drafts relate to VM mobility?

See http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-center-mobility/

>=20
> > The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
> > tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
> > has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
> > the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
> > related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
> > Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
>=20
> Maybe, maybe not.
>=20
> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the L2VPN
> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts that
> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>=20
> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> data center, but that is not a requirement.=20

Is there another draft on requirements? From the drafts you mention in your=
 initial nvo3 email it looks like connectivity across DCs is in scope for a=
ll. I believe the use case is expanded L2 domain for VM mobility - e.g. the=
 use of Inter-DC resource pools for Disaster Prevention.

> So the assumption is they
> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.

DC requirements were added in the L2VPN charter but it looks like a clear d=
efinition is required for Provider wording. L2 multi-tenancy beyond 4K VLAN=
s is one of the  major requirements in NVO3. That in my opinion clearly cro=
sses the line between a regular DC operator serving a handful of tenants an=
d a true Cloud Provider.=20

>=20
> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> hypervisors.
>=20
> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches and
> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay.=20
> While they
> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have a
> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> way into switches and hypervisors.

It is ok to define a requirement to support L2 overlay in these switches an=
d hypervisors and L2VPN should get a chance to discuss it and eventually ad=
dress it. But I believe it is way too  early to decide there is nothing goo=
d to be offered by L2VPN and re-start from zero the whole work.=20

Thanks,
Florin

>=20
> Does this make sense?
>=20
> Thomas


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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 05:07:54 +0200
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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+1

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of P=
aul Unbehagen
Sent: dinsdag 4 oktober 2011 2:04
To: Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs. Whet=
her or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also be consid=
ered an overlay over IP.=20

--
Paul Unbehagen


On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com> writes=
:
>=20
>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>> mobility.
>=20
> Can you list which drafts these are?
>=20
> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>=20
> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>=20
> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>=20
>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
>> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
>> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
>> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
>> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
>> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
>=20
> Maybe, maybe not.
>=20
> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the L2VPN
> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts that
> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>=20
> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is they
> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>=20
> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> hypervisors.
>=20
> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches and
> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have a
> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> way into switches and hypervisors.
>=20
> Does this make sense?
>=20
> Thomas

From joel.pauling@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Oct  3 20:11:15 2011
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Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2Virtualization
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 23:50:19 -0700
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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>, "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Hi Thomas,


>=20
> Can you list which drafts these are?
>=20
> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>=20
> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>=20
> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>=20

The solution drafts (1st and 3rd ones above) have consideration for VM
mobility. Basically, as part of an L2-solution, host movement needs to
be handled regardless of whether the host is physical or virtual.
Furthermore, the 1st draft has consideration for ARP
optimization/suppression and the 3rd draft will cover that in its next
version based on the input/comments received.=20

> > The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
> > tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
> > has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
> > the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
> > related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
> > Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
>=20
> Maybe, maybe not.
>=20
> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the L2VPN
> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts that
> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>=20
> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is they
> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>=20
> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> hypervisors.
>=20

We can group the L2-solutions under L2VPN into two categories: a)
PE-based solutions and b) CE-based solutions. Although the primary
emphasis has been thus far on PE-based solutions, the CE-based solutions
doesn't need to be excluded. Having the encapsulation to be performed by
the hypervisors or the virtual switch, can fall into either of the two
categories depending whether you consider the virtual switch (or
hypervisor) as part of the DC network or not. So, although the
application is different (DC versus DCI versus Carrier Eth versus etc.),
the L2-solution over IP (or MPLS) seems to have a lot in common across
all these different applications and it would be good to see whether the
DC overlay requirements are being met within L2VPN or not before talking
about a new WG. =20


> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches and
> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have a
> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> way into switches and hypervisors.
>=20

The number of states on the edge device is a function of the location of
the edge device - closer to the host requires fewer states and farther
from the host, it requires more state (n-PE requires lot more states
than u-PE). L2VPN solutions covers both end of the spectrum.=20

Again, it would be good to start from the requirements and see whether
there are any new requirements that cannot be met within L2VPN new
charter/solutions.

Cheers,
Ali=20

> Does this make sense?
>=20
> Thomas

From nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com  Tue Oct  4 05:05:37 2011
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To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Thomas,
Thanks for forwarding. The L2vpn WG charter that has been recently
approved states:=20

"The L2VPN working group is responsible for defining and specifying a
limited number of solutions for supporting provider-provisioned Layer-2
Virtual Private Networks (L2VPNs). It will also address requirements
driven by cloud computing services and data centers as they apply to
Layer-2 VPN services.

Layer-2 VPNs defined by L2VPN operate over pseudowires (PWs) as
defined by the PWE3 WG or over IP or MPLS PSN tunnels. A L2VPN
emulates a "native" service over a PSN that is adequately faithful
to, but may not be entirely indistinguishable from the native
service itself."


The goal is to address the data center and cloud computing requirements as
they pertain to L2 services.
In addition, the packet switched network can be IP or MPLS as stated.
There have been individual drafts in the WG
Such E-VPN or PBB-EVPN for instance that are mainly driven by data centers
and data center interconnects. That is in addition to other RFCs on VPLS,
VPMS, and PBB-PE model etc.

So, I think from an objective opinion of addressing multi-tenant data
center and data center interconnect scale, resiliency, efficiency, etc.,
there is overlap between this work and the l2vpn WG.

The following is my personal opinion:

I looked briefly through the drafts you attached. I think there are two
components: (1) scaling the number of l2 domains with a 24-bit identifier
that is coincidently (or may not be) the same size as an I-SID in the IEEE
802.1ah PBB header, and (2) tunneling of the layer2 traffic over IP to
avoid STP (a goal in many existing drafts) and take advantage of the IP
layer for ECMP, multicast etc. The mapping to the 24-bit network
identifier or Tenant 24-bit network identifier is dine at the hypervisor
or at a gateway in the first two drafts. I think short of the actual
encoding, this is in a way similar to PBB where you can start the PBB
encap at the hypervisor if such support exists or at the TOR by mapping a
VLAN ID to the 24-bit I-SID. How you switch that traffic within the data
center, can be native layer2, it can be tunneled over IP or MPLS. That
tunneling at least is expected to happen across the WAN for data center
interconnect. There are things that are mentioned related to multicast
that can be used or have existing parallel mechanisms to address that. My
point in stating that is not necessarily to imply only one way that things
can be done or should be done. However, it is to say that there are
existing tools or tools in the work that address these problems and for
layer2 it capitalizes on work in the IEEE and IETF. If there are
additional things that need to be developed to address deficiencies/gaps
in these tools, then they should be defined. Thus, It seems to me what is
suggested here is a providing a Layer2 VPN service and as a result that
should be part of the l2vpn working group evolving work and the solution,
set of solution or solution options if warranted can be defined there so
that the problem space can be addressed in one place without
fragmentation.=20

Thanks,
Nabil




On 10/3/11 4:26 PM, "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

>FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN's
>charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven't followed
>this WG in recent years.
>
>In any case, I'd welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is
>in-scope for this WG.
>
>Thomas
>
>------- Forwarded Message
>
>From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
>To: ietf@ietf.org
>Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
>Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400
>Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>Virtualization
>
>A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in
>the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3
>(IP) overlay network.
>
>As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,
>including:
>
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00
>
>I've put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on
>the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution
>specifics.  See:
>
>   =20
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.
>txt
>   =20
>There have also been some related vendor announcements and
>presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are
>surely others). For example:
>
>     http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/
>
>    =20
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_pa
>per_c11-685115.html
>
>    =20
>http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for
>-the-cloud.html
>    =20
>     http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442T
>
>The list is called nvo3, for "Network Virtualization Over L3", aka
>N-Vee-Oh-3 (we'll see how well that acronym sticks...).
>
>I've put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can
>explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.
>
>Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at
>
>     List address: nvo3@ietf.org
>     Archive:=20
>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.html
>     To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3
>
>I look forward to your participation!
>
>Thomas
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ietf mailing list
>Ietf@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>
>------- End of Forwarded Message


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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Extensions to VPLS PE model for Provider Backbone Bridgi=
ng
	Author(s)       : Florin Balus
                          Matthew Bocci
                          Mustapha Aissaoui
                          Ali Sajassi
                          Nabil Bitar
                          Raymond Zhang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2011-10-04

   IEEE 802.1ah standard [IEEE802.1ah], also known as Provider Backbone
   Bridges (PBB) defines an architecture and bridge protocols for
   interconnection of multiple Provider Bridge Networks (PBNs). PBB was
   defined in IEEE as a connectionless technology based on multipoint
   VLAN tunnels. MSTP is used as the core control plane for loop
   avoidance and load balancing. As a result, the coverage of the
   solution is limited by STP scale in the core of large service
   provider networks. PBB on the other hand can be used to attain better
   scalability in terms of number of customer MAC addresses and number
   of service instances that can be supported.

   Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) [RFC4664] provides a framework for
   extending Ethernet LAN services, using MPLS tunneling capabilities,
   through a routed MPLS backbone without running (M)STP across the
   backbone. As a result, VPLS has been deployed on a large scale in
   service provider networks.

   This draft discusses extensions to the VPLS PE model required to
   incorporate desirable PBB components while maintaining the Service
   Provider fit of the initial model.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04.t=
xt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04.txt

From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Tue Oct  4 09:04:26 2011
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Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 16:04:56 +0000
From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another network? If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion. 
Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition. 

Linda Dunbar 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Paul Unbehagen
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
> To: Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> 
> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
> be considered an overlay over IP.
> 
> --
> Paul Unbehagen
> 
> 
> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> 
> > "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> writes:
> >
> >> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> >> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> >> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> >> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> >> mobility.
> >
> > Can you list which drafts these are?
> >
> > For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
> >
> > draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> > draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> > draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> > draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
> >
> > What drafts relate to VM mobility?
> >
> >> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
> >> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
> >> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
> >> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
> >> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
> >> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
> >
> > Maybe, maybe not.
> >
> > Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
> L2VPN
> > work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
> > have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
> > to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts
> that
> > connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> > sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> > picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> > appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
> >
> > That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> > reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> > data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is they
> > are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
> >
> > VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
> > the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> > datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> > hypervisors.
> >
> > Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
> and
> > virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> > conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> > overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
> > just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have
> a
> > lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> > way into switches and hypervisors.
> >
> > Does this make sense?
> >
> > Thomas

From giles.heron@gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 09:45:38 2011
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Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 17:48:42 +0100
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).

In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?

Giles

On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another network?
> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
> 
> Linda Dunbar 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Paul Unbehagen
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>> To: Thomas Narten
>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>> Virtualization
>> 
>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>> 
>> --
>> Paul Unbehagen
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>> writes:
>>> 
>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>>>> mobility.
>>> 
>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>> 
>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>> 
>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>> 
>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>> 
>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
>>>> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
>>>> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
>>>> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
>>>> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
>>>> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
>>> 
>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>> 
>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>> L2VPN
>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is, you
>>> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you want
>>> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts
>> that
>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>> 
>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is they
>>> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>> 
>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part of
>>> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
>>> hypervisors.
>>> 
>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>> and
>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state. They
>>> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs have
>> a
>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>> 
>>> Does this make sense?
>>> 
>>> Thomas



From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Tue Oct  4 10:04:48 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:07:43 -0400
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....

But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other networ=
king overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind o=
f hybrid network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise=
. This is a different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date e=
xtended to a vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethern=
et networking or emulation in the equation.

N'est pas?

That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider pr=
ovisioned L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy clo=
ud. Many of the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly =
overlap the class of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t=
. multicast... The technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, =
that's all.

My 2 cents
D=20

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).

In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?

Giles

On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another net=
work?
> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
>=20
> Linda Dunbar
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>> To: Thomas Narten
>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2=20
>> Virtualization
>>=20
>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also=20
>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>>=20
>> --
>> Paul Unbehagen
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>> writes:
>>>=20
>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work=20
>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed=20
>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -=20
>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM=20
>>>> mobility.
>>>=20
>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>>=20
>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>>=20
>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>>=20
>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>>=20
>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of=20
>>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working=20
>>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing=20
>>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP=20
>>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with=20
>>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN =
customers.
>>>=20
>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>=20
>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>> L2VPN
>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,=20
>>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you=20
>>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the=20
>>> hosts
>> that
>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,=20
>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are=20
>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as=20
>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>>=20
>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can=20
>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the=20
>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is=20
>>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>>=20
>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part=20
>>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the=20
>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the=20
>>> hypervisors.
>>>=20
>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>> and
>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they=20
>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the=20
>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.=20
>>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs=20
>>> have
>> a
>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the=20
>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>>=20
>>> Does this make sense?
>>>=20
>>> Thomas



From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Tue Oct  4 10:17:30 2011
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Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 17:13:53 +0000
From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Giles, 

Thank you for the clarification. Based on  your clarification, TRILL is not in the scope of L2VPN because TRILL is not IP or MPLS. 
Then MAC-in-MAC is not in the scope of L2VPN either, correct? 

Linda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giles Heron [mailto:giles.heron@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:49 AM
> To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> 
> I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
> 
> In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
> 
> Giles
> 
> On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
> 
> > Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
> network?
> > If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> > Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
> >
> > Linda Dunbar
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> >> Of Paul Unbehagen
> >> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
> >> To: Thomas Narten
> >> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> >> Virtualization
> >>
> >> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially
> L2VPNs.
> >> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could
> also
> >> be considered an overlay over IP.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul Unbehagen
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> >> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> >>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> >>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> >>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> >>>> mobility.
> >>>
> >>> Can you list which drafts these are?
> >>>
> >>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
> >>>
> >>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
> >>>
> >>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
> >>>
> >>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
> IP
> >>>> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
> >>>> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
> >>>> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
> >>>> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
> >>>> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe, maybe not.
> >>>
> >>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
> >> L2VPN
> >>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
> you
> >>> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
> want
> >>> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts
> >> that
> >>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> >>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames
> are
> >>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> >>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
> >>>
> >>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> >>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> >>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
> they
> >>> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
> >>>
> >>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
> of
> >>> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> >>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> >>> hypervisors.
> >>>
> >>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
> >> and
> >>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> >>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> >>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
> They
> >>> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
> have
> >> a
> >>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> >>> way into switches and hypervisors.
> >>>
> >>> Does this make sense?
> >>>
> >>> Thomas
> 


From davari@broadcom.com  Tue Oct  4 10:22:49 2011
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From: "Shahram Davari" <davari@broadcom.com>
To: "David Allan I" <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, "Paul Unbehagen" <paul@unbehagen.net>, "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:25:35 -0700
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Here is my 2c:

There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN. Ho=
wever there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure is =
in the scope of L2VPN WG such as:

1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a cl=
ose environment
2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed=20
3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example there=
 can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of VPNs
4) connection Security is not a big concern=20
5) OAM is not a big concern=20
6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7=20
7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is requir=
ed
8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions
9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)
10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require translation =
of VPN identifier from local to global)


Thx
Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D=
avid Allan I
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....

But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other networ=
king overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind o=
f hybrid network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise=
. This is a different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date e=
xtended to a vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethern=
et networking or emulation in the equation.

N'est pas?

That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider pr=
ovisioned L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy clo=
ud. Many of the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly =
overlap the class of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t=
. multicast... The technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, =
that's all.

My 2 cents
D=20

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).

In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?

Giles

On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another net=
work?
> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
>=20
> Linda Dunbar
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>> To: Thomas Narten
>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2=20
>> Virtualization
>>=20
>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also=20
>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>>=20
>> --
>> Paul Unbehagen
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>> writes:
>>>=20
>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work=20
>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed=20
>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -=20
>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM=20
>>>> mobility.
>>>=20
>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>>=20
>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>>=20
>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>>=20
>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>>=20
>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of=20
>>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working=20
>>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing=20
>>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP=20
>>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with=20
>>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN =
customers.
>>>=20
>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>=20
>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>> L2VPN
>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,=20
>>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you=20
>>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the=20
>>> hosts
>> that
>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,=20
>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are=20
>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as=20
>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>>=20
>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can=20
>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the=20
>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is=20
>>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>>=20
>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part=20
>>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the=20
>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the=20
>>> hypervisors.
>>>=20
>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>> and
>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they=20
>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the=20
>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.=20
>>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs=20
>>> have
>> a
>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the=20
>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>>=20
>>> Does this make sense?
>>>=20
>>> Thomas





From giles.heron@gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 10:31:30 2011
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Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:34:38 +0100
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Right - MAC-in-MAC would be out of scope.

But MAC-in-MAC over IP is potentially in scope as it provides for
multi-tenant L2 over an IP PSN.

Giles

On 04/10/2011 18:13, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

> Giles, 
> 
> Thank you for the clarification. Based on  your clarification, TRILL is not in
> the scope of L2VPN because TRILL is not IP or MPLS.
> Then MAC-in-MAC is not in the scope of L2VPN either, correct?
> 
> Linda
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Giles Heron [mailto:giles.heron@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:49 AM
>> To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>> Virtualization
>> 
>> I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
>> 
>> In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
>> 
>> Giles
>> 
>> On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
>> network?
>>> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
>>> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
>>> 
>>> Linda Dunbar
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>> Of Paul Unbehagen
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>>>> To: Thomas Narten
>>>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>>>> Virtualization
>>>> 
>>>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially
>> L2VPNs.
>>>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could
>> also
>>>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Paul Unbehagen
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>>> writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>>>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>>>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>>>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>>>>>> mobility.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>>>> 
>>>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>>>> 
>>>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>>>> 
>>>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
>> IP
>>>>>> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group
>>>>>> has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all
>>>>>> the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC
>>>>>> related solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as
>>>>>> Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>>>> L2VPN
>>>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
>> you
>>>>> have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
>> want
>>>>> to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the hosts
>>>> that
>>>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
>>>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames
>> are
>>>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
>>>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
>>>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
>>>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
>> they
>>>>> are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>>>> 
>>>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
>> of
>>>>> the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
>>>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
>>>>> hypervisors.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>>>> and
>>>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
>>>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
>>>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
>> They
>>>>> just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
>> have
>>>> a
>>>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
>>>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does this make sense?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thomas
>> 
> 



From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct  4 11:45:21 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Shahram Davari <davari@broadcom.com>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:48:06 -0500
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Hi Shahram,
I think we need some requirements draft driven by Cloud Providers. Let me t=
ry to add to your considerations below - see in-line...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Shahram Davari
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 AM
> To: David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Nart=
en
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> Here is my 2c:
>=20
> There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN.
> However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure=
 is in
> the scope of L2VPN WG such as:
>=20
> 1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a =
close
> environment

If you are talking about private IP addresses in the DC core, that was alwa=
ys in scope for all VPN technologies. IP/MPLS core networks use private add=
ressing. If you are talking about the VPN IP addressing then the deployed V=
PNs are based on allowing this kind of addressing too. Actually that was on=
e of the main VPN requirements from the beginning and to allow overlapping =
addressing between customers.

> 2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed

No IPv6 is mandated by existing VPNs although it is supported. I would not =
exclude IPv6 support though from the Cloud requirements unless there are go=
od reasons behind it.

> 3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example the=
re can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of VPNs

There are actually Telco networks that have similar size or up to 100K if y=
ou consider also the access switches/DSLAMs. These are usually  Metro-WAN-M=
etro networks. As to millions of VPNs did you mean millions of VMs? We do h=
ave addressing fields that allow for millions of VPNs but in practical sens=
e we are right now at or below 4K VLANs and a handful of VR contexts in exi=
sting DC networks. It will take a while to get to millions.. it will be goo=
d to understand what Cloud Providers expect in medium/long term.

> 4) connection Security is not a big concern
I thought people care about that everywhere. Do you mean IPSec is not requi=
red?

> 5) OAM is not a big concern
This is very surprising to me. I thought with more tenants being served by =
a Cloud Provider there will be a clear need for proper troubleshooting tool=
s and SLA reporting. We did extensive work in IETF on that and I think it i=
s extensively used by Telcos.

> 6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7
We always had ECMP in the IP/MPLS core and also EVPN/PBB-EVPN work is addre=
ssing L2-L7 loadbalancing at service level.

> 7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is requ=
ired
See work on flood containment and Mcast handling in EVPN and PBB/SPB.

> 8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions

I agree this is something we did not need up to now in L2VPN although indiv=
idual vendor EMS did some control plane functions for VPNs before service A=
uto-discovery was introduced. But I don't believe there is anything in the =
charter preventing us from doing it.

> 9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)

We have IP tunnels in scope in L2VPN. In L2VPN we had also PBB interop draf=
t which defines interop between native Ethernet tunnels and PBB-VPLS. Same =
can be said about PBB-EVPN draft.

> 10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require translatio=
n of
> VPN identifier from local to global)

You mean this is a good argument for keeping the work in L2VPN to make sure=
 we provide easy mapping of Tenant - WAN VPN ID right?

Thanks,
Florin
>=20
>=20
> Thx
> Shahram
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> David Allan I
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
> To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....
>=20
> But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other netw=
orking
> overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind of h=
ybrid
> network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise. This =
is a
> different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date extended to=
 a
> vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethernet networki=
ng or
> emulation in the equation.
>=20
> N'est pas?
>=20
> That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider =
provisioned
> L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy cloud. Many=
 of
> the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly overlap th=
e class
> of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t. multicast... T=
he
> technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, that's all.
>=20
> My 2 cents
> D
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Giles Heron
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
> To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
>=20
> In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
>=20
> Giles
>=20
> On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
> network?
> > If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> > Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
> >
> > Linda Dunbar
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
> >> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
> >> To: Thomas Narten
> >> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> >> Virtualization
> >>
> >> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
> >> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
> >> be considered an overlay over IP.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul Unbehagen
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> >> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> >>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> >>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> >>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> >>>> mobility.
> >>>
> >>> Can you list which drafts these are?
> >>>
> >>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
> >>>
> >>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
> >>>
> >>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
> >>>
> >>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
> >>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working
> >>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing
> >>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP
> >>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with
> >>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VP=
N
> customers.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe, maybe not.
> >>>
> >>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
> >> L2VPN
> >>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
> >>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
> >>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the
> >>> hosts
> >> that
> >>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> >>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> >>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> >>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
> >>>
> >>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> >>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> >>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
> >>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor=
.
> >>>
> >>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
> >>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> >>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> >>> hypervisors.
> >>>
> >>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
> >> and
> >>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> >>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> >>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
> >>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
> >>> have
> >> a
> >>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> >>> way into switches and hypervisors.
> >>>
> >>> Does this make sense?
> >>>
> >>> Thomas
>=20
>=20
>=20


From ping@pingpan.org  Tue Oct  4 12:29:53 2011
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From: Ping Pan <ping@pingpan.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 12:32:06 -0700
Message-ID: <CAM9otXwoQbanf3Ts_=giM5_+rKiRZvjgSzPCHimei404Jj7DOg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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--0015174c3ee6f531da04ae7e27b6
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Hi,

I think this set of drafts are very interesting. They are defined with a set
of data center applications in mind (and not necessarily with PBB or other
Ethernet network operation in mind). Nevertheless  the data manipulation
defined in the drafts will likely interface with MPLS in many cases.

Maybe that's new work which deserves a BOF/WG, maybe that can be combined
into L2VPN. In any rate. I think that we should keep an open mind, and hear
it first. Personally, I think the work is overlapping with L2VPN's general
framework, but I could be wrong...

Regards,

Ping



On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) <
florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

>
> Hi Shahram,
> I think we need some requirements draft driven by Cloud Providers. Let me
> try to add to your considerations below - see in-line...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Shahram Davari
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 AM
> > To: David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas
> Narten
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> >
> > Here is my 2c:
> >
> > There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN.
> > However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure
> is in
> > the scope of L2VPN WG such as:
> >
> > 1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a
> close
> > environment
>
> If you are talking about private IP addresses in the DC core, that was
> always in scope for all VPN technologies. IP/MPLS core networks use private
> addressing. If you are talking about the VPN IP addressing then the deployed
> VPNs are based on allowing this kind of addressing too. Actually that was
> one of the main VPN requirements from the beginning and to allow overlapping
> addressing between customers.
>
> > 2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed
>
> No IPv6 is mandated by existing VPNs although it is supported. I would not
> exclude IPv6 support though from the Cloud requirements unless there are
> good reasons behind it.
>
> > 3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example
> there can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of VPNs
>
> There are actually Telco networks that have similar size or up to 100K if
> you consider also the access switches/DSLAMs. These are usually
>  Metro-WAN-Metro networks. As to millions of VPNs did you mean millions of
> VMs? We do have addressing fields that allow for millions of VPNs but in
> practical sense we are right now at or below 4K VLANs and a handful of VR
> contexts in existing DC networks. It will take a while to get to millions..
> it will be good to understand what Cloud Providers expect in medium/long
> term.
>
> > 4) connection Security is not a big concern
> I thought people care about that everywhere. Do you mean IPSec is not
> required?
>
> > 5) OAM is not a big concern
> This is very surprising to me. I thought with more tenants being served by
> a Cloud Provider there will be a clear need for proper troubleshooting tools
> and SLA reporting. We did extensive work in IETF on that and I think it is
> extensively used by Telcos.
>
> > 6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7
> We always had ECMP in the IP/MPLS core and also EVPN/PBB-EVPN work is
> addressing L2-L7 loadbalancing at service level.
>
> > 7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is
> required
> See work on flood containment and Mcast handling in EVPN and PBB/SPB.
>
> > 8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions
>
> I agree this is something we did not need up to now in L2VPN although
> individual vendor EMS did some control plane functions for VPNs before
> service Auto-discovery was introduced. But I don't believe there is anything
> in the charter preventing us from doing it.
>
> > 9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)
>
> We have IP tunnels in scope in L2VPN. In L2VPN we had also PBB interop
> draft which defines interop between native Ethernet tunnels and PBB-VPLS.
> Same can be said about PBB-EVPN draft.
>
> > 10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require
> translation of
> > VPN identifier from local to global)
>
> You mean this is a good argument for keeping the work in L2VPN to make sure
> we provide easy mapping of Tenant - WAN VPN ID right?
>
> Thanks,
> Florin
> >
> >
> > Thx
> > Shahram
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
> > To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> >
> > I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....
> >
> > But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other
> networking
> > overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind of
> hybrid
> > network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise. This
> is a
> > different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date extended to
> a
> > vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethernet
> networking or
> > emulation in the equation.
> >
> > N'est pas?
> >
> > That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider
> provisioned
> > L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy cloud. Many
> of
> > the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly overlap
> the class
> > of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t. multicast...
> The
> > technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, that's all.
> >
> > My 2 cents
> > D
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Giles Heron
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
> > To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> >
> > I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
> >
> > In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
> >
> > Giles
> >
> > On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
> > network?
> > > If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> > > Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
> > >
> > > Linda Dunbar
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > >> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
> > >> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
> > >> To: Thomas Narten
> > >> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> > >> Virtualization
> > >>
> > >> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
> > >> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
> > >> be considered an overlay over IP.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Paul Unbehagen
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > >> writes:
> > >>>
> > >>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> > >>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> > >>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> > >>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> > >>>> mobility.
> > >>>
> > >>> Can you list which drafts these are?
> > >>>
> > >>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
> > >>>
> > >>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> > >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> > >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> > >>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
> > >>>
> > >>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
> > >>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working
> > >>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing
> > >>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP
> > >>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with
> > >>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to
> VPN
> > customers.
> > >>>
> > >>> Maybe, maybe not.
> > >>>
> > >>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
> > >> L2VPN
> > >>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
> > >>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
> > >>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the
> > >>> hosts
> > >> that
> > >>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> > >>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> > >>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> > >>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
> > >>>
> > >>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> > >>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> > >>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
> > >>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a
> providor.
> > >>>
> > >>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
> > >>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> > >>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> > >>> hypervisors.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
> > >> and
> > >>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> > >>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> > >>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
> > >>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
> > >>> have
> > >> a
> > >>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> > >>> way into switches and hypervisors.
> > >>>
> > >>> Does this make sense?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thomas
> >
> >
> >
>
>

--0015174c3ee6f531da04ae7e27b6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<div><br></div><div>I think this set of drafts are very interesting. The=
y are defined with a set of data center applications in mind (and not=C2=A0=
necessarily=C2=A0with PBB or other Ethernet network operation in mind).=C2=
=A0Nevertheless=C2=A0 the data manipulation defined in the drafts will like=
ly interface with MPLS in many cases.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Maybe that&#39;s new work which deserves a BOF/WG, mayb=
e that can be combined into L2VPN. In any rate. I think that we should keep=
 an open mind, and hear it first. Personally, I think the work is overlappi=
ng with L2VPN&#39;s general framework, but I could be wrong...<br clear=3D"=
all">

<div><br></div>Regards,<div><br></div><div>Ping</div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Balus, =
Florin Stelian (Florin) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:florin.balu=
s@alcatel-lucent.com">florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br>
Hi Shahram,<br>
I think we need some requirements draft driven by Cloud Providers. Let me t=
ry to add to your considerations below - see in-line...<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
</div>&gt; Shahram Davari<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 AM<br>
&gt; To: David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas N=
arten<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org=
</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 V=
irtualization<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; Here is my 2c:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VP=
N.<br>
&gt; However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not s=
ure is in<br>
&gt; the scope of L2VPN WG such as:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to=
 a close<br>
&gt; environment<br>
<br>
</div>If you are talking about private IP addresses in the DC core, that wa=
s always in scope for all VPN technologies. IP/MPLS core networks use priva=
te addressing. If you are talking about the VPN IP addressing then the depl=
oyed VPNs are based on allowing this kind of addressing too. Actually that =
was one of the main VPN requirements from the beginning and to allow overla=
pping addressing between customers.<br>


<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed<br>
<br>
</div>No IPv6 is mandated by existing VPNs although it is supported. I woul=
d not exclude IPv6 support though from the Cloud requirements unless there =
are good reasons behind it.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example =
there can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of VPNs=
<br>
<br>
</div>There are actually Telco networks that have similar size or up to 100=
K if you consider also the access switches/DSLAMs. These are usually =C2=A0=
Metro-WAN-Metro networks. As to millions of VPNs did you mean millions of V=
Ms? We do have addressing fields that allow for millions of VPNs but in pra=
ctical sense we are right now at or below 4K VLANs and a handful of VR cont=
exts in existing DC networks. It will take a while to get to millions.. it =
will be good to understand what Cloud Providers expect in medium/long term.=
<br>


<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 4) connection Security is not a big concern<br>
</div>I thought people care about that everywhere. Do you mean IPSec is not=
 required?<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 5) OAM is not a big concern<br>
</div>This is very surprising to me. I thought with more tenants being serv=
ed by a Cloud Provider there will be a clear need for proper troubleshootin=
g tools and SLA reporting. We did extensive work in IETF on that and I thin=
k it is extensively used by Telcos.<br>


<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7<br>
</div>We always had ECMP in the IP/MPLS core and also EVPN/PBB-EVPN work is=
 addressing L2-L7 loadbalancing at service level.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is r=
equired<br>
</div>See work on flood containment and Mcast handling in EVPN and PBB/SPB.=
<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions<br>
<br>
</div>I agree this is something we did not need up to now in L2VPN although=
 individual vendor EMS did some control plane functions for VPNs before ser=
vice Auto-discovery was introduced. But I don&#39;t believe there is anythi=
ng in the charter preventing us from doing it.<br>


<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)<br>
<br>
</div>We have IP tunnels in scope in L2VPN. In L2VPN we had also PBB intero=
p draft which defines interop between native Ethernet tunnels and PBB-VPLS.=
 Same can be said about PBB-EVPN draft.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; 10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require transla=
tion of<br>
&gt; VPN identifier from local to global)<br>
<br>
</div>You mean this is a good argument for keeping the work in L2VPN to mak=
e sure we provide easy mapping of Tenant - WAN VPN ID right?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">Florin<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thx<br>
&gt; Shahram<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
&gt; David Allan I<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM<br>
&gt; To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 V=
irtualization<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other n=
etworking<br>
&gt; overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind o=
f hybrid<br>
&gt; network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise. Th=
is is a<br>
&gt; different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date extended=
 to a<br>
&gt; vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethernet netwo=
rking or<br>
&gt; emulation in the equation.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; N&#39;est pas?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provid=
er provisioned<br>
&gt; L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy cloud. M=
any of<br>
&gt; the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly overlap=
 the class<br>
&gt; of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t. multicast..=
. The<br>
&gt; technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, that&#39;s all=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; My 2 cents<br>
&gt; D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
&gt; Giles Heron<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM<br>
&gt; To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 V=
irtualization<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the &quot;other&quot; network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer=
 3).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In the TRILL case it&#39;s L2 over L2, right?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Giles<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 04/10/2011 17:04, &quot;Linda Dunbar&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:li=
nda.dunbar@huawei.com">linda.dunbar@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by ano=
ther<br>
&gt; network?<br>
&gt; &gt; If yes, I totally agree with Florin&#39;s opinion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Linda Dunbar<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces=
@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: Thomas Narten<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to pro=
vide L2<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Virtualization<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentiall=
y L2VPNs.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS co=
uld also<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; be considered an overlay over IP.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Paul Unbehagen<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com">florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; writes:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to in=
clude work<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number o=
f proposed<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; requirements and solution initiatives that prompted t=
he change -<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions=
) and VM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mobility.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Can you list which drafts these are?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; For the EVPN, that would presumably be:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; What drafts relate to VM mobility?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over =
some sort of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and th=
e working<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opini=
on dealing<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including =
L2/IP<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; solution. Any DC related solutions need to also inter=
operate with<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud=
 Services to VPN<br>
&gt; customers.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Maybe, maybe not.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is t=
hat the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; L2VPN<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. =
That is,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sit=
es, and you<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN =
(to the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; hosts<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network=
 as before,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2=
 frames are<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN =
as<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an ove=
rlay can<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend ou=
tside the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assump=
tion is<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, no=
t a providor.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itsel=
f is part<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere w=
ithin the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; datacenter, including all the way up to the access switch=
es and the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; hypervisors.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thus, an overlay will have lots of &quot;simple&quot; dev=
ices (i.e, switches<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While the=
y<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches i=
n the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; overlay, in practice they don&#39;t need much per-destina=
tion state.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2V=
P approachs<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; have<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; a<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to =
go all the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; way into switches and hypervisors.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Does this make sense?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thomas<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--0015174c3ee6f531da04ae7e27b6--

From wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct  4 13:10:23 2011
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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Shahram Davari <davari@broadcom.com>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:13:01 +0200
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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In-line with WH>

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=
hahram Davari
Sent: dinsdag 4 oktober 2011 19:26
To: David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

Here is my 2c:

There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN. Ho=
wever there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure is =
in the scope of L2VPN WG such as:

1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a cl=
ose environment
WH> same for L2VPN
2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed=20
3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example there=
 can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of VPNs
WH> L2VPN solutions support this scale
4) connection Security is not a big concern
5) OAM is not a big concern=20
6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7=20
WH> addressed with some solution in L2VPN today like MAC-VPN/E-VPN and PBB =
E-VPN
7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is requir=
ed
WH> addressed with some solution in L2VPN today like MAC-VPN/E-VPN and PBB =
E-VPN
8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions
WH> you can perform functions in network management also with the L2VPn sol=
utions
9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)
WH> IP or MPLS is support in L2VPn and they both run over Ethernet
10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require translation =
of VPN identifier from local to global)
WH> also being addresses using Inter-AS options

WH> so from this list I still believe L2VPN is the right place to discuss t=
his.


Thx
Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D=
avid Allan I
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....

But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other networ=
king overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind o=
f hybrid network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise=
. This is a different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date e=
xtended to a vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethern=
et networking or emulation in the equation.

N'est pas?

That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider pr=
ovisioned L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy clo=
ud. Many of the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly =
overlap the class of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t=
. multicast... The technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, =
that's all.

My 2 cents
D=20

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).

In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?

Giles

On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another net=
work?
> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
>=20
> Linda Dunbar
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>> To: Thomas Narten
>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2=20
>> Virtualization
>>=20
>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also=20
>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>>=20
>> --
>> Paul Unbehagen
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>> writes:
>>>=20
>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work=20
>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed=20
>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -=20
>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM=20
>>>> mobility.
>>>=20
>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>>=20
>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>>=20
>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>>=20
>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>>=20
>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of=20
>>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working=20
>>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing=20
>>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP=20
>>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with=20
>>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN =
customers.
>>>=20
>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>=20
>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>> L2VPN
>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,=20
>>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you=20
>>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the=20
>>> hosts
>> that
>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,=20
>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are=20
>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as=20
>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>>=20
>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can=20
>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the=20
>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is=20
>>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>>=20
>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part=20
>>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the=20
>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the=20
>>> hypervisors.
>>>=20
>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>> and
>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they=20
>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the=20
>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.=20
>>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs=20
>>> have
>> a
>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the=20
>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>>=20
>>> Does this make sense?
>>>=20
>>> Thomas





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Subject: L3VPN meeting in Taipei RE VPN4DC
From: Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com>
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
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Hello;

I am forwarding this to L2VPN, as there might be people interested in
VPN4DC here. Please, if you are interested, carry the
discussion forward on the L3VPN ML.

------

Stewart Bryant has requested that we hold an L3VPN meeting at IETF 82
to consider and discuss VPN4DC.
Specifically, we would

"need to emerge understanding the problem, the usage, the
requirements, and the necessary charter changes."

This would be preparation for VPN4DC becoming a BOF.

Some requirements for this meeting :

The problem needs to be discussed on the L3VPN list.

There  needs to be viable  -00 drafts submitted to L3VPN before the cutoff.

Luyuan Fang has promised a draft before the cutoff.

If there is not significant discussion on this issue, the session is
likely to be canceled.

Again, please keep discussion of VPN4DC on the L3VPN list.

Regards
Marshall

From nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com  Tue Oct  4 14:34:01 2011
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To: Shahram Davari <davari@broadcom.com>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:36:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Hi Sharam,
Please see inline as a contributor opinion.

Thanks,
Nabil

On 10/4/11 1:25 PM, "Shahram Davari" <davari@broadcom.com> wrote:

>Here is my 2c:
>
>There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN.
>However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure
>is in the scope of L2VPN WG such as:
<NB> Maybe, but I think what is not in scope or cannot be in scope would
need to be identified.
>
>1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a
>close environment
<NB> I am not sure whose IP addresses are being referred to. However, that
is assumed in all cases. If a customer connects to an L2VPN, they may be
using private or public IP addresses. There is nothing that restricts this
addressing one way or the other.
>2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed
<NB> Why would that assumption be made? I think it is safe to assume that
if the data center will be serving public customers or serving
enterprises, it would need to support IPv6.
>=20
>3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example
>there can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of
>VPNs
<NB> Data center driven requirements from scale aspect, resiliency or
network efficiency and solutions to address them are in scope of the l2vpn
WG.
>4) connection Security is not a big concern
<NB> ?
>=20
>5) OAM is not a big concern
<NB> why would one think so, and OAM for what is not a concern.
>=20
>6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7
<NB> Load-balancing is factored in as far ECMP etc., but I am not sure for
data path perspective, why you would be concerned about application layer
load-balancing
>=20
>7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is
>required
<NB> This pertains to both L2 and L3 and L2VPN and L3VPN address that and
if something is identified as lacking, then it should be addressed
>8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions
>9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)
<NB> IP-only PSN is within scope
>10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require
>translation of VPN identifier from local to global)
>
>
>Thx
>Shahram
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>David Allan I
>Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
>To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
>Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>Virtualization
>
>I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....
>
>But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other
>networking overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying
>some kind of hybrid network. I do not think that is the design intent of
>this exercise. This is a different technology set that those explored by
>L2VPN to date extended to a vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There
>is no other Ethernet networking or emulation in the equation.
>
>N'est pas?
>
>That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider
>provisioned L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy
>cloud. Many of the issues discussed in the problem statement draft
>explicitly overlap the class of solutions being discussed in L2VPN,
>particularly w.r.t. multicast... The technologies have been changed to
>protect the innocent, that's all.
>
>My 2 cents
>D=20
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>Giles Heron
>Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
>To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
>Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>Virtualization
>
>I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
>
>In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
>
>Giles
>
>On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
>>network?
>> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
>> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
>>=20
>> Linda Dunbar
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>>> To: Thomas Narten
>>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>>> Virtualization
>>>=20
>>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
>>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
>>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Paul Unbehagen
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>> writes:
>>>>=20
>>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>>>>> mobility.
>>>>=20
>>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>>>=20
>>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>>>=20
>>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>>>=20
>>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
>>>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working
>>>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing
>>>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP
>>>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with
>>>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to
>>>>>VPN customers.
>>>>=20
>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>=20
>>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>>> L2VPN
>>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
>>>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
>>>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the
>>>> hosts
>>> that
>>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
>>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
>>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
>>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>>>=20
>>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
>>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
>>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
>>>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>>>=20
>>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
>>>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
>>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
>>>> hypervisors.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>>> and
>>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
>>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
>>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
>>>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
>>>> have
>>> a
>>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
>>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>>>=20
>>>> Does this make sense?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>
>
>
>


From vantonder.renier@gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 22:57:07 2011
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Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 08:00:12 +0200
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Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
From: renier van tonder <vantonder.renier@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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--0022152d6a71df058d04ae86ebc2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Gents and/or Ladies

I beg you please remove me from your mailing list. I have NO idea how I got
on to it in the first place!!

Thank you kindly

vantonder.renier@gmail.com

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN's
> charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven't followed
> this WG in recent years.
>
> In any case, I'd welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is
> in-scope for this WG.
>
> Thomas
>
> ------- Forwarded Message
>
> From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
> To: ietf@ietf.org
> Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400
> Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
>
> A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in
> the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3
> (IP) overlay network.
>
> As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,
> including:
>
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00
>
> I've put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on
> the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution
> specifics.  See:
>
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.txt
>
> There have also been some related vendor announcements and
> presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are
> surely others). For example:
>
>     http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/
>
>
> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_paper_c11-685115.html
>
>
> http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for-the-cloud.html
>
>     http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442T
>
> The list is called nvo3, for "Network Virtualization Over L3", aka
> N-Vee-Oh-3 (we'll see how well that acronym sticks...).
>
> I've put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can
> explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.
>
> Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at
>
>     List address: nvo3@ietf.org
>     Archive:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.html
>     To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3
>
> I look forward to your participation!
>
> Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> Ietf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>
> ------- End of Forwarded Message
>

--0022152d6a71df058d04ae86ebc2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Gents and/or Ladies<br><br>I beg you please remove me from your mailing lis=
t. I have NO idea how I got on to it in the first place!!<br><br>Thank you =
kindly<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:vantonder.renier@gmail.com">vantonder.renie=
r@gmail.com</a><br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Thomas Nart=
en <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN&#39;s<br=
>
charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven&#39;t followed<br=
>
this WG in recent years.<br>
<br>
In any case, I&#39;d welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is<br>
in-scope for this WG.<br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
------- Forwarded Message<br>
<br>
From: Thomas Narten &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:ietf@ietf.org">ietf@ietf.org</a><br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400<br>
Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualiza=
tion<br>
<br>
A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in<br>
the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3<br>
(IP) overlay network.<br>
<br>
As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,<br>
including:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-v=
xlan-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt=
-dcops-vxlan-00</a><br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualizatio=
n-nvgre-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-vi=
rtualization-nvgre-00</a><br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobi=
lity-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l=
3-vmmobility-00</a><br>
<br>
I&#39;ve put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on<br=
>
the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution<br>
specifics. =A0See:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-pro=
blem-statement-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-n=
arten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
There have also been some related vendor announcements and<br>
presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are<br>
surely others). For example:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/</a><b=
r>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9=
441/ps9902/white_paper_c11-685115.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cisco.=
com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_paper_c11-685115.htm=
l</a><br>

<br>
 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtual=
ized-networking-for-the-cloud.html" target=3D"_blank">http://blogs.vmware.c=
om/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for-the-cloud.html</a><br=
>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442=
T" target=3D"_blank">http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-44=
2T</a><br>
<br>
The list is called nvo3, for &quot;Network Virtualization Over L3&quot;, ak=
a<br>
N-Vee-Oh-3 (we&#39;ll see how well that acronym sticks...).<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can<br>
explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.<br>
<br>
Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 List address: <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
 =A0 =A0 Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/curr=
ent/maillist.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/n=
vo3/current/maillist.html</a><br>
 =A0 =A0 To subscribe: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo=
3" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3</a><br>
<br>
I look forward to your participation!<br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ietf mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ietf@ietf.org">Ietf@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf</a><br>
<br>
------- End of Forwarded Message<br>
</blockquote></div><br>

--0022152d6a71df058d04ae86ebc2--

From lucy.yong@huawei.com  Wed Oct  5 09:29:55 2011
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Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:32:53 +0000
From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
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Yes/support
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Giles Heron
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:33 PM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn't
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles



From vishwas.ietf@gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 14:23:41 2011
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Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Benson Schliesser <bschlies@cisco.com>
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--00163649a72791334604ae93dde5
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Hi,

I agree with Benson here. A big difference is L2VPN focuses on "provider
provisioned" which may not be what the NVO3 may be focussed on.

With that said however I guess because there are similarities, the way to
look at it would be, to see if there is interest in the group, the right
folks are part of the L2VPN group, the chair's/ AD's are willing to take up
the task and other similar questions.

Thanks,
Vishwas
On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Benson Schliesser <bschlies@cisco.com>wrote:

> I don't disagree with Florin's comments, but I'm not certain the NVO3
> initiative is best-served within L2VPN's scope. The L2VPN charter says that
> "Layer-2 VPNs comprise" an enumerated list of topics. While there may be
> overlap, it seems that NVO3 would deal with a somewhat new topic.  Whether
> this is best done through a re-charter of L2VPN or establishment of a new
> WG, is not clear to me - but for the sake of argument here are a couple
> considerations:
>
> For starters, the current L2VPN charter focuses on "provider-provisioned"
> which may not apply to NVO3.  This is admittedly a vague line of division,
> but it may be useful in thinking about the distinction between these areas
> of work.
>
> More specifically, while NVO3 solutions might emulate native L2 service,
> they may in fact be significantly different in capability and operation.
>  I'd suggest that, for example, the mechanisms by which address resolution
> happen might be very different - both within an overlay, as well as between
> the overlay and underlying PSN. This might constrain the types of traffic
> that can be carried by the overlay. Or maybe not. This is something that
> NVO3 would need to investigate.
>
> Cheers,
> -Benson
>
>
> On Oct 3, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) wrote:
>
> > Thomas,
> >
> > The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work related
> to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed requirements and
> solution initiatives that prompted the change - see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN
> (requirements, solutions) and VM mobility.
> >
> > The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of IP
> tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group has
> accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all the
> VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC related
> solutions need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as Cloud Provider
> want to deliver Cloud Services to VPN customers.
> >
> > So I think these initiatives are in L2VPN scope and should be discussed
> here to better understand what are the deltas from existing VPN
> technologies.
> >
> > Florin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Thomas Narten
> > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 1:27 PM
> > To: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: FWD: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> >
> > FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlaps with L2VPN's
> > charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven't followed
> > this WG in recent years.
> >
> > In any case, I'd welcome feedback and a sense for whether this is
> > in-scope for this WG.
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> > ------- Forwarded Message
> >
> > From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
> > To: ietf@ietf.org
> > Cc: nvo3@ietf.org
> > Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400
> > Subject: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> Virtualization
> >
> > A new mailing list has been set up to explore possible IETF work in
> > the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3
> > (IP) overlay network.
> >
> > As background, there are a number of drafts that relate to this area,
> > including:
> >
> >    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00
> >    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00
> >    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00
> >
> > I've put together a first-cut at a problem statement that focuses on
> > the issues and potential work areas, without getting into solution
> > specifics.  See:
> >
> >
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.txt
> >
> > There have also been some related vendor announcements and
> > presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are
> > surely others). For example:
> >
> >     http://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/
> >
> >
> http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_paper_c11-685115.html
> >
> >
> http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for-the-cloud.html
> >
> >     http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/SAC-442T
> >
> > The list is called nvo3, for "Network Virtualization Over L3", aka
> > N-Vee-Oh-3 (we'll see how well that acronym sticks...).
> >
> > I've put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can
> > explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.
> >
> > Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at
> >
> >     List address: nvo3@ietf.org
> >     Archive:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.html
> >     To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3
> >
> > I look forward to your participation!
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ietf mailing list
> > Ietf@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> >
> > ------- End of Forwarded Message
>
>

--00163649a72791334604ae93dde5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>Hi,</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>I agree with Benson here. A big difference is L2VPN focuses on &quot;p=
rovider provisioned&quot; which may not be what the NVO3 may be focussed on=
.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>With that said however I guess because there are similarities, the way=
 to look at it would be, to see if there is interest in the group, the=A0ri=
ght folks are part of the L2VPN group, the chair&#39;s/ AD&#39;s are willin=
g to take up the task and other similar questions.</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Vishwas<br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Benson Schliesse=
r <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bschlies@cisco.com">bschlies@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I don&#39;t disagree with Florin=
&#39;s comments, but I&#39;m not certain the NVO3 initiative is best-served=
 within L2VPN&#39;s scope. The L2VPN charter says that &quot;Layer-2 VPNs c=
omprise&quot; an enumerated list of topics. While there may be overlap, it =
seems that NVO3 would deal with a somewhat new topic. =A0Whether this is be=
st done through a re-charter of L2VPN or establishment of a new WG, is not =
clear to me - but for the sake of argument here are a couple considerations=
:<br>
<br>For starters, the current L2VPN charter focuses on &quot;provider-provi=
sioned&quot; which may not apply to NVO3. =A0This is admittedly a vague lin=
e of division, but it may be useful in thinking about the distinction betwe=
en these areas of work.<br>
<br>More specifically, while NVO3 solutions might emulate native L2 service=
, they may in fact be significantly different in capability and operation. =
=A0I&#39;d suggest that, for example, the mechanisms by which address resol=
ution happen might be very different - both within an overlay, as well as b=
etween the overlay and underlying PSN. This might constrain the types of tr=
affic that can be carried by the overlay. Or maybe not. This is something t=
hat NVO3 would need to investigate.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br><font color=3D"#888888">-Benson<br></font>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br>On Oct 3, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Balus, Florin Stelian=
 (Florin) wrote:<br><br>&gt; Thomas,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The L2VPN charter was =
modified a few months ago to include work related to DC/Cloud networking. T=
here were a number of proposed requirements and solution initiatives that p=
rompted the change - see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions)=
 and VM mobility.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort=
 of IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working group ha=
s accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing with all the VPN/mu=
lti-tenancy components, including L2/IP solution. Any DC related solutions =
need to also interoperate with existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deli=
ver Cloud Services to VPN customers.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; So I think these initiatives are in L2VPN scope and should be =
discussed here to better understand what are the deltas from existing VPN t=
echnologies.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Florin<br>&gt;<br>&gt; -----Original Message--=
---<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Narten<br>&gt; Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 1=
:27 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subje=
ct: FWD: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualiza=
tion<br>&gt;<br>&gt; FYI. It has been suggested that this work area overlap=
s with L2VPN&#39;s<br>
&gt; charter. That was not my starting point, but I also haven&#39;t follow=
ed<br>&gt; this WG in recent years.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; In any case, I&#39;d we=
lcome feedback and a sense for whether this is<br>&gt; in-scope for this WG=
.<br>
&gt;<br>&gt; Thomas<br>&gt;<br>&gt; ------- Forwarded Message<br>&gt;<br>&g=
t; From: Thomas Narten &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.i=
bm.com</a>&gt;<br>&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:ietf@ietf.org">ietf@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Date: F=
ri, 30 Sep 2011 20:03:34 -0400<br>&gt; Subject: Call for Participation: Usi=
ng IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization<br>&gt;<br>&gt; A new mailing l=
ist has been set up to explore possible IETF work in<br>
&gt; the area of providing L2 network virtualization service over an L3<br>=
&gt; (IP) overlay network.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; As background, there are a numbe=
r of drafts that relate to this area,<br>&gt; including:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =
=A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vx=
lan-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahalingam-dutt-=
dcops-vxlan-00</a><br>
&gt; =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridharan-virtualiz=
ation-nvgre-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sridhara=
n-virtualization-nvgre-00</a><br>&gt; =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt; I&#39;ve put together a first-cut at a problem statement that =
focuses on<br>&gt; the issues and potential work areas, without getting int=
o solution<br>&gt; specifics. =A0See:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =A0 =A0<a href=3D"htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-00.txt"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-pro=
blem-statement-00.txt</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt; There have also been some related vendor announcements and<br>=
&gt; presentations as well (these are ones I happen to know of, there are<b=
r>&gt; surely others). For example:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http=
://blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/" target=3D"_blank">http://=
blogs.cisco.com/datacenter/introducing-vxlan/</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt; =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/=
switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_paper_c11-685115.html" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps9441/ps9902/white_paper_c1=
1-685115.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt; =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://blogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/tow=
ards-virtualized-networking-for-the-cloud.html" target=3D"_blank">http://bl=
ogs.vmware.com/console/2011/08/towards-virtualized-networking-for-the-cloud=
.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt; =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD=
2011/SAC-442T" target=3D"_blank">http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUIL=
D2011/SAC-442T</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; The list is called nvo3, for &quot;Netwo=
rk Virtualization Over L3&quot;, aka<br>
&gt; N-Vee-Oh-3 (we&#39;ll see how well that acronym sticks...).<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt; I&#39;ve put in a formal request to hold a BOF in Taipai, so we can<b=
r>&gt; explore whether it makes sense to form a WG in this area.<br>&gt;<br=
>
&gt; Subscription information for the mailing list can be found at<br>&gt;<=
br>&gt; =A0 =A0 List address: <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.or=
g</a><br>&gt; =A0 =A0 Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/=
web/nvo3/current/maillist.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-=
archive/web/nvo3/current/maillist.html</a><br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 To subscribe: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/nvo3" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3</a><br>=
&gt;<br>&gt; I look forward to your participation!<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Thomas<b=
r>&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Ietf mailing l=
ist<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ietf@ietf.org">Ietf@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf</a><br>
&gt;<br>&gt; ------- End of Forwarded Message<br><br></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><br>

--00163649a72791334604ae93dde5--

From tnadeau@lucidvision.com  Fri Oct  7 07:56:59 2011
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From: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>
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Subject: Software Defined Networks (SDN) BoF in Taipei
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 10:40:21 -0400
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	I wanted to pass on some information regarding a BoF that is =
planned for Taipei that is relevant to=20
participants of this mailing list/WG area. =20

	The IAB and IESG met today to discuss BoFs for Taipei and agreed =
that we will hold a BoF
SDN with a goal of "discussing the technology and identifying work =
items". The BoF is nominally=20
in the Routing Area, but we expect considerable involvement from the OPS =
Area as well.=20

	The following is a link to the drafts and other documentation =
around the SDN effort
including some presentations, and a link to join the BoF mailing list.=20=

=09
	http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/

	We encourage you to join the list, review the materials and =
participate on the mailing
list as well as come to the BoF if you have an interest in this work.

	--Tom





From davari@broadcom.com  Fri Oct  7 09:42:25 2011
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From: "Shahram Davari" <davari@broadcom.com>
To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>, "David Allan I" <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, "Paul Unbehagen" <paul@unbehagen.net>, "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 09:45:20 -0700
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Hi Florin,


-----Original Message-----
From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:48 AM
To: Shahram Davari; David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehage=
n; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization


Hi Shahram,
I think we need some requirements draft driven by Cloud Providers. Let me t=
ry to add to your considerations below - see in-line...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Shahram Davari
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 AM
> To: David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Nart=
en
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> Here is my 2c:
>=20
> There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN.
> However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure=
 is in
> the scope of L2VPN WG such as:
>=20
> 1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a =
close
> environment

If you are talking about private IP addresses in the DC core, that was alwa=
ys in scope for all VPN technologies. IP/MPLS core networks use private add=
ressing. If you are talking about the VPN IP addressing then the deployed V=
PNs are based on allowing this kind of addressing too. Actually that was on=
e of the main VPN requirements from the beginning and to allow overlapping =
addressing between customers.

SD> I was talking about the private IP address for the routers in the DC co=
re. I don't think private IP address is allowed for Service Provider core.

> 2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed

No IPv6 is mandated by existing VPNs although it is supported. I would not =
exclude IPv6 support though from the Cloud requirements unless there are go=
od reasons behind it.

SD> Inside a data-center there is no need to have IPV6 address since the IP=
 addresses are local to the Data center. Off course IPv6 may be needed when=
 sending packets out of a data center, but that can be done via a Gateway r=
outer.

> 3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example the=
re can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of VPNs

There are actually Telco networks that have similar size or up to 100K if y=
ou consider also the access switches/DSLAMs. These are usually  Metro-WAN-M=
etro networks. As to millions of VPNs did you mean millions of VMs? We do h=
ave addressing fields that allow for millions of VPNs but in practical sens=
e we are right now at or below 4K VLANs and a handful of VR contexts in exi=
sting DC networks. It will take a while to get to millions.. it will be goo=
d to understand what Cloud Providers expect in medium/long term.

SD> I meant million VPN and more VMs. I am not aware of any SP network that=
 requires a heterogeneous connectivity between so many PEs are VPNs.=20

> 4) connection Security is not a big concern
I thought people care about that everywhere. Do you mean IPSec is not requi=
red?

SD> Inside a DC there is no need to use IPSEC or MACSEC since it is a restr=
icted area.

> 5) OAM is not a big concern
This is very surprising to me. I thought with more tenants being served by =
a Cloud Provider there will be a clear need for proper troubleshooting tool=
s and SLA reporting. We did extensive work in IETF on that and I think it i=
s extensively used by Telcos.

SD> Today there is no OAM inside a DC. I agree that adding OAM adds value.

> 6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7
We always had ECMP in the IP/MPLS core and also EVPN/PBB-EVPN work is addre=
ssing L2-L7 loadbalancing at service level.

SD> OK.

> 7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is requ=
ired
See work on flood containment and Mcast handling in EVPN and PBB/SPB.

SD> OK.

> 8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions

I agree this is something we did not need up to now in L2VPN although indiv=
idual vendor EMS did some control plane functions for VPNs before service A=
uto-discovery was introduced. But I don't believe there is anything in the =
charter preventing us from doing it.

> 9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)

We have IP tunnels in scope in L2VPN. In L2VPN we had also PBB interop draf=
t which defines interop between native Ethernet tunnels and PBB-VPLS. Same =
can be said about PBB-EVPN draft.

I know that we have IP tunnels in scope of L2VPN but we have not seen any s=
pecific solution for IP-only cores (without MPLS and PW).

> 10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require translatio=
n of
> VPN identifier from local to global)

You mean this is a good argument for keeping the work in L2VPN to make sure=
 we provide easy mapping of Tenant - WAN VPN ID right?

SD> I meant that some new functions that have never been considered in L2VP=
N group are required


Thanks
Shahram


Thanks,
Florin
>=20
>=20
> Thx
> Shahram
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> David Allan I
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
> To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....
>=20
> But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other netw=
orking
> overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind of h=
ybrid
> network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise. This =
is a
> different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date extended to=
 a
> vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethernet networki=
ng or
> emulation in the equation.
>=20
> N'est pas?
>=20
> That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider =
provisioned
> L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy cloud. Many=
 of
> the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly overlap th=
e class
> of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t. multicast... T=
he
> technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, that's all.
>=20
> My 2 cents
> D
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Giles Heron
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
> To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
>=20
> In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
>=20
> Giles
>=20
> On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
> network?
> > If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> > Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
> >
> > Linda Dunbar
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
> >> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
> >> To: Thomas Narten
> >> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> >> Virtualization
> >>
> >> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
> >> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
> >> be considered an overlay over IP.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul Unbehagen
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> >> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> >>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> >>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> >>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> >>>> mobility.
> >>>
> >>> Can you list which drafts these are?
> >>>
> >>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
> >>>
> >>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> >>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
> >>>
> >>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
> >>>
> >>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
> >>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working
> >>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing
> >>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP
> >>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with
> >>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to VP=
N
> customers.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe, maybe not.
> >>>
> >>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
> >> L2VPN
> >>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
> >>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
> >>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the
> >>> hosts
> >> that
> >>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
> >>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
> >>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> >>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
> >>>
> >>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> >>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> >>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
> >>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor=
.
> >>>
> >>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
> >>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> >>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> >>> hypervisors.
> >>>
> >>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
> >> and
> >>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> >>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> >>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
> >>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
> >>> have
> >> a
> >>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> >>> way into switches and hypervisors.
> >>>
> >>> Does this make sense?
> >>>
> >>> Thomas
>=20
>=20
>=20




From davari@broadcom.com  Fri Oct  7 09:47:27 2011
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From: "Shahram Davari" <davari@broadcom.com>
To: "Bitar, Nabil N" <nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>, "David Allan I" <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, "Paul Unbehagen" <paul@unbehagen.net>, "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 09:50:29 -0700
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Hi Nabil,

Please see my comments inline.

Thanks
Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: Bitar, Nabil N [mailto:nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 2:37 PM
To: Shahram Davari; David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehage=
n; Thomas Narten
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtua=
lization

Hi Sharam,
Please see inline as a contributor opinion.

Thanks,
Nabil

On 10/4/11 1:25 PM, "Shahram Davari" <davari@broadcom.com> wrote:

>Here is my 2c:
>
>There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN.
>However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not sure
>is in the scope of L2VPN WG such as:
<NB> Maybe, but I think what is not in scope or cannot be in scope would
need to be identified.
>
>1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to a
>close environment
<NB> I am not sure whose IP addresses are being referred to. However, that
is assumed in all cases. If a customer connects to an L2VPN, they may be
using private or public IP addresses. There is nothing that restricts this
addressing one way or the other.

SD> I was referring to TOR switches and Core router addresses that are conf=
ined inside a DC

>2) Most likely no IPV6 is needed
<NB> Why would that assumption be made? I think it is safe to assume that
if the data center will be serving public customers or serving
enterprises, it would need to support IPv6.

SD> Inside a DC, there is no need for IPv6 but as the packet gets out of DC=
 IPV6 is needed.


>=20
>3) Scales are much higher than Service Provider networks. For example
>there can be tens of thousands of Top of Rack switches and millions of
>VPNs
<NB> Data center driven requirements from scale aspect, resiliency or
network efficiency and solutions to address them are in scope of the l2vpn
WG.
>4) connection Security is not a big concern
<NB> ?

SD> I meant inside DC there is no need for IPSEC or MACSEC.
>=20
>5) OAM is not a big concern
<NB> why would one think so, and OAM for what is not a concern.
>=20

SD> I meant today no OAM is used in DC.

>6) Advanced load balancing is required including L2-L7
<NB> Load-balancing is factored in as far ECMP etc., but I am not sure for
data path perspective, why you would be concerned about application layer
load-balancing

SD> ECMP load balancing mostly relies on L2 and L3 header. DC may require f=
iner grain load balancing.=20
>=20
>7) Efficient Multicast from multiple members of a multicast group is
>required
<NB> This pertains to both L2 and L3 and L2VPN and L3VPN address that and
if something is identified as lacking, then it should be addressed
>8) Network management does a lot of the control plane functions
>9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)
<NB> IP-only PSN is within scope
>10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require
>translation of VPN identifier from local to global)
>
>
>Thx
>Shahram
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>David Allan I
>Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
>To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
>Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>Virtualization
>
>I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....
>
>But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other
>networking overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying
>some kind of hybrid network. I do not think that is the design intent of
>this exercise. This is a different technology set that those explored by
>L2VPN to date extended to a vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There
>is no other Ethernet networking or emulation in the equation.
>
>N'est pas?
>
>That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provider
>provisioned L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy
>cloud. Many of the issues discussed in the problem statement draft
>explicitly overlap the class of solutions being discussed in L2VPN,
>particularly w.r.t. multicast... The technologies have been changed to
>protect the innocent, that's all.
>
>My 2 cents
>D=20
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>Giles Heron
>Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
>To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
>Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>Virtualization
>
>I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
>
>In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
>
>Giles
>
>On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
>>network?
>> If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
>> Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
>>=20
>> Linda Dunbar
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
>>> To: Thomas Narten
>>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
>>> Virtualization
>>>=20
>>> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPNs.
>>> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could also
>>> be considered an overlay over IP.
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Paul Unbehagen
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>> writes:
>>>>=20
>>>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
>>>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
>>>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
>>>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
>>>>> mobility.
>>>>=20
>>>> Can you list which drafts these are?
>>>>=20
>>>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
>>>>=20
>>>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
>>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
>>>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
>>>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
>>>>=20
>>>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
>>>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working
>>>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing
>>>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP
>>>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with
>>>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to
>>>>>VPN customers.
>>>>=20
>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>=20
>>>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
>>> L2VPN
>>>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
>>>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and you
>>>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the
>>>> hosts
>>> that
>>>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before,
>>>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames are
>>>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
>>>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
>>>>=20
>>>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
>>>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
>>>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
>>>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a providor.
>>>>=20
>>>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
>>>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
>>>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
>>>> hypervisors.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
>>> and
>>>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
>>>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
>>>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
>>>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approachs
>>>> have
>>> a
>>>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
>>>> way into switches and hypervisors.
>>>>=20
>>>> Does this make sense?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>
>
>
>




From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Oct  7 13:31:49 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Shahram Davari <davari@broadcom.com>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>, Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:34:46 -0500
Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
Thread-Topic: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virtualization
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Hi Shahram,
I believe a requirement draft is required from the DC Providers in order to=
 evaluate the differences with the focus on the future architecture. See be=
low for some more clarifications on selected items.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari [mailto:davari@broadcom.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 9:45 AM
> To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dun=
bar; Paul
> Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> Hi Florin,
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.=
com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:48 AM
> To: Shahram Davari; David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbeha=
gen;
> Thomas Narten
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Virt=
ualization
>=20
> Hi Shahram,
> I think we need some requirements draft driven by Cloud Providers. Let me=
 try
> to add to your considerations below - see in-line...
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> > Shahram Davari
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:26 AM
> > To: David Allan I; Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Na=
rten
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Vi=
rtualization
> >
> > Here is my 2c:
> >
> > There is certainly big overlap between data center networking and L2VPN=
.
> > However there are also some data center requirements, which I am not su=
re is
> in
> > the scope of L2VPN WG such as:
> >
> > 1) Private IP addresses are OK in data center, since it is confined to =
a close
> > environment
>=20
> If you are talking about private IP addresses in the DC core, that was al=
ways in
> scope for all VPN technologies. IP/MPLS core networks use private address=
ing. If
> you are talking about the VPN IP addressing then the deployed VPNs are ba=
sed
> on allowing this kind of addressing too. Actually that was one of the mai=
n VPN
> requirements from the beginning and to allow overlapping addressing betwe=
en
> customers.
>=20
> SD> I was talking about the private IP address for the routers in the DC =
core. I
> don't think private IP address is allowed for Service Provider core.

When it comes to VPN deployments there are no restrictions like this on the=
 Service Provider core: they may use (and some actually do) private address=
ing inside their IP/MPLS core used for VPN transport.=20

[clipped]=20
=20
> > 9) Core of data center is not MPLS (just IP or Ethernet)
>=20
> We have IP tunnels in scope in L2VPN. In L2VPN we had also PBB interop dr=
aft
> which defines interop between native Ethernet tunnels and PBB-VPLS. Same =
can
> be said about PBB-EVPN draft.
>=20
> I know that we have IP tunnels in scope of L2VPN but we have not seen any
> specific solution for IP-only cores (without MPLS and PW).

L2TP based solutions were developed initially in PWE3 and then I believe in=
 L2TP WG. They are applicable and actually deployed in a number of VPLS and=
 VPWS networks. I am also aware of vendor solutions using GRE tunneling for=
 VPLS and VPWS that may be re-considered in L2VPN if needed.

Thanks,
Florin
=20
> > 10) Interworking between Data centers is required (may require translat=
ion of
> > VPN identifier from local to global)
>=20
> You mean this is a good argument for keeping the work in L2VPN to make su=
re
> we provide easy mapping of Tenant - WAN VPN ID right?
>=20
> SD> I meant that some new functions that have never been considered in L2=
VPN
> group are required
>=20
>=20
> Thanks
> Shahram
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Florin
> >
> >
> > Thx
> > Shahram
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> > David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08 AM
> > To: Giles Heron; Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Vi=
rtualization
> >
> > I thought it was L2 over TRILL over foo....
> >
> > But in this particular portion of the thread we are discussing other ne=
tworking
> > overlay techniques interworking with this overlay implying some kind of=
 hybrid
> > network. I do not think that is the design intent of this exercise. Thi=
s is a
> > different technology set that those explored by L2VPN to date extended =
to a
> > vanilla (v)UNI in a greenfield build. There is no other Ethernet networ=
king or
> > emulation in the equation.
> >
> > N'est pas?
> >
> > That being said, I still think it falls under purview of L2VPN. Provide=
r
> provisioned
> > L2VPNs are exactly the same class of problem as multi-tenancy cloud. Ma=
ny of
> > the issues discussed in the problem statement draft explicitly overlap =
the class
> > of solutions being discussed in L2VPN, particularly w.r.t. multicast...=
 The
> > technologies have been changed to protect the innocent, that's all.
> >
> > My 2 cents
> > D
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> > Giles Heron
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 9:49 AM
> > To: Linda Dunbar; Paul Unbehagen; Thomas Narten
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2 Vi=
rtualization
> >
> > I think the "other" network has to be IP or MPLS (i.e. Layer 3).
> >
> > In the TRILL case it's L2 over L2, right?
> >
> > Giles
> >
> > On 04/10/2011 17:04, "Linda Dunbar" <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Does it mean that L2VPN is about L2 network being tunneled by another
> > network?
> > > If yes, I totally agree with Florin's opinion.
> > > Then TRILL is L2VPN as well based on this definition.
> > >
> > > Linda Dunbar
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > >> Behalf Of Paul Unbehagen
> > >> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:04 PM
> > >> To: Thomas Narten
> > >> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Call for Participation: Using IP Overlays to provide L2
> > >> Virtualization
> > >>
> > >> I have to agree with Florin on this one. These are essentially L2VPN=
s.
> > >> Whether or not they are over IP or not is irrelevant. VPLS could als=
o
> > >> be considered an overlay over IP.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Paul Unbehagen
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Oct 3, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
> > >> writes:
> > >>>
> > >>>> The L2VPN charter was modified a few months ago to include work
> > >>>> related to DC/Cloud networking. There were a number of proposed
> > >>>> requirements and solution initiatives that prompted the change -
> > >>>> see drafts on EVPN, PBB-EVPN (requirements, solutions) and VM
> > >>>> mobility.
> > >>>
> > >>> Can you list which drafts these are?
> > >>>
> > >>> For the EVPN, that would presumably be:
> > >>>
> > >>> draft-raggarwa-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-04.txt
> > >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-evpn-segment-route-00.txt
> > >>> draft-sajassi-l2vpn-pbb-evpn-02.txt
> > >>> draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> What drafts relate to VM mobility?
> > >>>
> > >>>> The solution drafts you list below are about L2 over some sort of
> > >>>> IP tunnels. IP PSN is in the charter for L2VPN and the working
> > >>>> group has accumulated a lot of experience in my opinion dealing
> > >>>> with all the VPN/multi-tenancy components, including L2/IP
> > >>>> solution. Any DC related solutions need to also interoperate with
> > >>>> existing VPNs as Cloud Provider want to deliver Cloud Services to =
VPN
> > customers.
> > >>>
> > >>> Maybe, maybe not.
> > >>>
> > >>> Let me be clear about one thing there. My impression is that the
> > >> L2VPN
> > >>> work has largely been about connecting L2 LANs together. That is,
> > >>> you have existng L2 LANs (or VLANs, etc.) at multiple sites, and yo=
u
> > >>> want to glue them together so they look like one big LAN (to the
> > >>> hosts
> > >> that
> > >>> connect to them). Hosts/servers interact with the network as before=
,
> > >>> sending L2 frames over an Ethernet. At some point, the L2 frames ar=
e
> > >>> picked up by an device that transports them over the WAN as
> > >>> appropriate (using L2TPv3, MPLS, etc.).
> > >>>
> > >>> That is not what overlays are about. Conceptually, an overlay can
> > >>> reside entirely within one datacenter. They can extend outside the
> > >>> data center, but that is not a requirement. So the assumption is
> > >>> they are setup and managed by the datacenter operator, not a provid=
or.
> > >>>
> > >>> VMs on a server run on a hypervisor. The hypervisor itself is part
> > >>> of the overlay. That is, the overlay extends everywhere within the
> > >>> datacenter, including all the way up to the access switches and the
> > >>> hypervisors.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thus, an overlay will have lots of "simple" devices (i.e, switches
> > >> and
> > >>> virtual switches) that are part of the overlay. While they
> > >>> conceptually may have tunnels to all the other switches in the
> > >>> overlay, in practice they don't need much per-destination state.
> > >>> They just tunnel on demand. In contrast, the existing L2VP approach=
s
> > >>> have
> > >> a
> > >>> lot more state per endpoint and are just not designed to go all the
> > >>> way into switches and hypervisors.
> > >>>
> > >>> Does this make sense?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thomas
> >
> >
> >
>=20
>=20


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Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 03:10:14 +0000
From: Jiangyuanlong <jiangyuanlong@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
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Support

Thanks
Yuanlong

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:32:34 +0100
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
Message-ID: <CAAA8662.EEB4%giles.heron@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by March
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn't
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.

Thanks!

Nabil & Giles




------------------------------


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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:32:04 +0000
From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Subject: possible scope gap//re: [nvo3] L2VPN overlap?
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It is a go=
od question. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">IMHO, It=
=A1=AFs absolutely possible to realize network virtualization in a data cen=
ter or across multiple data centers by using L3 overlay, especially
 host route based IP-only L2VPN service. Host route based IP-only L2VPN ser=
vice could also allow the hosts within a give VPN instance to act as if the=
y were located within a subnet/LAN except that only IP traffic is supported=
. Compared to those MAC forwarding
 based L2VPN services (i.e., L2 overlay) such as VPLS, &nbsp;host route bas=
ed IP-only L2VPN service does seem a bit restrictive since those legacy non=
-IP applications (e.g., link-local multicast, non-IP unicast) would not be =
supported. However, host based IP-only
 L2VPN service has many unique and charming advantages in addressing the sc=
aling issues that today=A1=AFs cloud data centers are facing, such as ARP b=
roadcast storm reduction, unknown unicast flooding avoidance, MAC table red=
uction on CE switches, active-active
 DC exit and ARP table reduction on DC exit routers...<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Examples o=
f such approach are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Virtual Su=
bnet (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">http://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06</span></a>)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Data Cente=
r Mobility (<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-=
center-mobility)"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">http:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-center-mobility)</span></a><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">VL2(http:/=
/research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=3D80693)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Xiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> nvo3-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=FA=
=B1=ED </span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:=CB=CE=CC=E5">Murari Sridharan<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2011</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">10</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">4</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 12:43<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Thomas Narten; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Re: [nvo3] L2VPN overlap?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Why are we restricting t=
he discussion to just L2 overlays? The virtual topology can be L3 as well.<=
br>
<br>
Sent from my Windows Phone<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thomas Narten</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sent:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">10/3/2011 7:04 PM</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">To:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">nvo3@ietf.org</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Subject:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[nvo3] L2VPN overlap?</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">FYI, a discussion of sorts started on the L2VPN =
list as to whether L2<br>
overlays as proposed for this list are already in-scope for the L2VPN<br>
WG.<br>
<br>
I.e., see <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/msg=
02874.html">
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/msg02874.html</a><br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
nvo3 mailing list<br>
nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/nvo3</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_nlelq/qHZG+qfIDnAezW/w)--

From giles.heron@gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 01:44:49 2011
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:44:42 +0100
Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
=B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
=20
Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.=20

This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
=20
Regards,
Giles



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Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
=B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2.

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
=20
Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.=20

This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
=20
Regards,
Giles



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support

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011 10:45
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model

This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
=B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
=20
Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.=20

This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
=20
Regards,
Giles



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support

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011 10:48
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02

This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
=B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2.

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
=20
Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.=20

This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
=20
Regards,
Giles



From william.zayas@fibercrossing.net  Tue Oct 11 08:23:52 2011
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Subject: Re:  Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
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Support.


rgds,

wz 

-----Original Message-----
From: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 05:07 AM
To: 'Giles Heron', l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02

support -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l=
2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Giles Heron Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober =
2011 10:48 To: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb=
-vpls-interop-02 This is the start of a two-week working group last call =
on the draft =B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2. =
The draft can be found at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pb=
b-vpls-interop-02 Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L=
2VPN working group email list. This WG last call will close on Tuesday Oc=
tober 25th 2011. Regards, Giles 

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<html><DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P>Support.</P>
<P mce_keep=3D"true">&nbsp;</P>
<P mce_keep=3D"true">&nbsp;</P>
<P>rgds,</P>
<P mce_keep=3D"true">&nbsp;</P>
<P>wz&nbsp;</P>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; M=
ARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>-----Ori=
ginal Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.hend=
erickx@alcatel-lucent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 05:0=
7 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Giles Heron', l2vpn@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: L=
ast call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02<BR><BR></FONT>support -=
----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Giles Heron Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011 10:4=
8 To: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-int=
erop-02 This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the dr=
aft =B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2. The draft=
 can be found at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-in=
terop-02 Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN work=
ing group email list. This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25t=
h 2011. Regards, Giles </BLOCKQUOTE></html>

----=_vm_0011_W465768342_15975_1318346620--



From paul@unbehagen.net  Tue Oct 11 08:29:44 2011
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From: Paul Unbehagen <paul@unbehagen.net>
Subject: Re: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:29:38 -0600
To: "william.zayas@fibercrossing.net" <william.zayas@fibercrossing.net>
Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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Support

--
Paul Unbehagen=20


On Oct 11, 2011, at 9:23 AM, william.zayas@fibercrossing.net wrote:

> =20
> Support.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> rgds,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> wz=20
>=20
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 05:07 AM
> To: 'Giles Heron', l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
>=20
> support -----Original Message----- From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2=
vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Giles Heron Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011=
 10:48 To: l2vpn@ietf.org Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-i=
nterop-02 This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the dra=
ft =C2=B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=C2=B2. The dra=
ft can be found at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-int=
erop-02 Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working g=
roup email list. This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011. R=
egards, Giles

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Support<br><br><div>--</di=
v><div>Paul Unbehagen&nbsp;</div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On Oct 11, 20=
11, at 9:23 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:william.zayas@fibercrossing.net">william.z=
ayas@fibercrossing.net</a> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<p>Support.</p>
<p mce_keep=3D"true">&nbsp;</p>
<p mce_keep=3D"true">&nbsp;</p>
<p>rgds,</p>
<p mce_keep=3D"true">&nbsp;</p>
<p>wz&nbsp;</p>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"></font>&nbsp;</div>=

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARG=
IN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">-----Origi=
nal Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.henderick=
x@alcatel-lucent.com]<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 05:07 AM<br>=
<b>To:</b> 'Giles Heron', <a href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</=
a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02=
<br><br></font>support -----Original Message----- From: <a href=3D"mailto:l2=
vpn-bounces@ietf.org">l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.=
org] On Behalf Of Giles Heron Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011 10:48 To: <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</a> Subject: Last call for draft-=
ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02 This is the start of a two-week working group=
 last call on the draft =C2=B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone B=
ridges=C2=B2. The draft can be found at: <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02</a> Please, review the draft and send any comme=
nts to the L2VPN working group email list. This WG last call will close on T=
uesday October 25th 2011. Regards, Giles </blockquote>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:32:49 -0700
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support

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Giles Heron
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:45 AM
> To: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
>=20
> The draft can be found at:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
>=20
> Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working
> group
> email list.
>=20
> This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
>=20
> Regards,
> Giles
>=20


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Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:32:49 -0700
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support

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Giles Heron
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:48 AM
> To: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
>=20
> This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> =B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2.
>=20
> The draft can be found at:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
>=20
> Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working
> group
> email list.
>=20
> This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
>=20
> Regards,
> Giles
>=20


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To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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support!

(2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> ³Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging².
>
> The draft can be found at:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
>
> Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
> email list.
>
> This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
>
> Regards,
> Giles
>
>


From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Tue Oct 11 10:17:59 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:17:53 -0400
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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Hi:

For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a critical compo=
nent.

IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-compone=
nts, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and what this docu=
ment is almost totally silent on is in how I-components map per S-tag BU tr=
affic to I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC addresses, and how MAC filte=
ring is used within the B-tag. This is how much finer broadcast containment=
 of customer VLANs is performed vs. simply using B-tags.=20

This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some clue as t=
o why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.

For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please conside=
r this a formal LC comment.

My 2 cents
Dave


(2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft=20
> =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
>
> The draft can be found at:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
>
> Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working=20
> group email list.
>
> This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
>
> Regards,
> Giles
>
>


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Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:46:11 -0700
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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: "David Allan I" <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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Hi Dave,

One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component in =
VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with respect to =
PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group of PWs - e.g., =
a group of PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is associated with a =
broadcast domain (associated with a VLAN). However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW =
represents a logical interface and thus it is treated as an interface to =
the B-component and thus enables us to run bridging protocol such as =
MMRP over such interface for multicast optimization.

I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this better =
and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.

Cheers,
Ali=09


> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of David Allan I
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> To: Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi:
>=20
> For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a critical
> component.
>=20
> IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-
> components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and
> what this document is almost totally silent on is in how I-components
> map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC
> addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the B-tag. This is how
> much finer broadcast containment of customer VLANs is performed vs.
> simply using B-tags.
>=20
> This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some clue
> as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
>=20
> For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please
> consider this a formal LC comment.
>=20
> My 2 cents
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> > =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
> >
> > The draft can be found at:
> >
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> >
> > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working
> > group email list.
> >
> > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Giles
> >
> >


From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Tue Oct 11 11:00:16 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:00:08 -0400
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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Hi Ali:

I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on the B-MA=
C layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as that seemed rather=
 thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the behaviour is directly analogous =
to bridging an S-tag even if a B-tag was an aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a =
VPN of VPNs...)

A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus. ;-)

Dave
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model

Hi Dave,

One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component in VPLS=
 IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with respect to PE mode=
l. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group of PWs - e.g., a group of=
 PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is associated with a broadcast domai=
n (associated with a VLAN). However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical=
 interface and thus it is treated as an interface to the B-component and th=
us enables us to run bridging protocol such as MMRP over such interface for=
 multicast optimization.

I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this better an=
d I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.

Cheers,
Ali=09


> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of David Allan I
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> To: Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi:
>=20
> For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a critical=20
> component.
>=20
> IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-=20
> components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and=20
> what this document is almost totally silent on is in how I-components=20
> map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC=20
> addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the B-tag. This is how=20
> much finer broadcast containment of customer VLANs is performed vs.
> simply using B-tags.
>=20
> This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some clue=20
> as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
>=20
> For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please=20
> consider this a formal LC comment.
>=20
> My 2 cents
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft=20
> > =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
> >
> > The draft can be found at:
> >
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> >
> > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working=20
> > group email list.
> >
> > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Giles
> >
> >


From sajassi@cisco.com  Tue Oct 11 11:11:17 2011
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Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:10:57 -0700
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Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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References: <CAB9C08A.F43E%giles.heron@gmail.com> <4E94645E.7080107@cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAE9CA@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7F115A41909B2641A9550322C4DF9D56081AB595@xmb-sjc-22d.amer.cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEA25@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se>
From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: "David Allan I" <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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Hi Dave,

We cannot do a PBB tutorial here because it is outside of the scope; =
however, we can elaborate how customer mcast traffic is encapsulated and =
how they can be replicated efficiently because of the PBB-VPLS PE model =
and applying MMRP over PWs (that act as logical interfaces).=20

Cheers,
Ali

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Ali:
>=20
> I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on the
> B-MAC layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as that
> seemed rather thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the behaviour is
> directly analogous to bridging an S-tag even if a B-tag was an
> aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPNs...)
>=20
> A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus. ;-)
>=20
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
> One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component in
> VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with respect =
to
> PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group of PWs - =
e.g.,
> a group of PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is associated with a
> broadcast domain (associated with a VLAN). However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW
> represents a logical interface and thus it is treated as an interface
> to the B-component and thus enables us to run bridging protocol such =
as
> MMRP over such interface for multicast optimization.
>=20
> I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this
> better and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Ali
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > To: Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a =
critical
> > component.
> >
> > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-
> > components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and
> > what this document is almost totally silent on is in how =
I-components
> > map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC
> > addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the B-tag. This is
> how
> > much finer broadcast containment of customer VLANs is performed vs.
> > simply using B-tags.
> >
> > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some
> clue
> > as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
> >
> > For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please
> > consider this a formal LC comment.
> >
> > My 2 cents
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the
> draft
> > > =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
> > >
> > > The draft can be found at:
> > >
> > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> > >
> > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN =
working
> > > group email list.
> > >
> > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Giles
> > >
> > >


From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct 11 11:16:51 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:16:33 -0500
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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Hi Dave,

Based on previous comments we chose to focus the current text only on the d=
eltas from IEEE docs (specifically IEEE 802.1ah): i.e. the I-component brid=
ging procedures are very well described in IEEE 802.1ah.
Also PBB-VPLS interop draft - see the other LC -  has some level of details=
 on the S-tag Interop piece.

If something is missing though we can consider updating the text in one of =
the two drafts. Feel free to send us some suggested text for the two sectio=
ns...

Thanks,
Florin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> David Allan I
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Ali:
>=20
> I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on the B-=
MAC
> layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as that seemed rather=
 thin
> on IMO a key point. As otherwise the behaviour is directly analogous to b=
ridging
> an S-tag even if a B-tag was an aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPN=
s...)
>=20
> A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus. ;-)
>=20
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
> One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component in VP=
LS IS
> different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with respect to PE model.=
 In
> VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group of PWs - e.g., a group of PWs
> represent a VLAN emulation and it is associated with a broadcast domain
> (associated with a VLAN). However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical
> interface and thus it is treated as an interface to the B-component and t=
hus
> enables us to run bridging protocol such as MMRP over such interface for
> multicast optimization.
>=20
> I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this better =
and I agree
> and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Ali
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > To: Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a critical
> > component.
> >
> > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-
> > components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and
> > what this document is almost totally silent on is in how I-components
> > map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC
> > addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the B-tag. This is how
> > much finer broadcast containment of customer VLANs is performed vs.
> > simply using B-tags.
> >
> > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some clue
> > as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
> >
> > For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please
> > consider this a formal LC comment.
> >
> > My 2 cents
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> > > =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
> > >
> > > The draft can be found at:
> > >
> > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> > >
> > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working
> > > group email list.
> > >
> > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Giles
> > >
> > >


From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Tue Oct 11 11:56:59 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:56:37 -0400
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Index: AcyILK76vZP2fg2jRumJ2Y2atMXkCAAC1AVQAAD51GAAALK6IAAAalUAAADk4MA=
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References: <CAB9C08A.F43E%giles.heron@gmail.com> <4E94645E.7080107@cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAE9CA@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7F115A41909B2641A9550322C4DF9D56081AB595@xmb-sjc-22d.amer.cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEA25@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73662C@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Well, at the risk of being pedantic, right now you are sort of half pregnan=
t....

Section 4 describes a chunk of how a B-component behaves, with the proviso =
that some arbitrary bundle of virtual interfaces need to be treated like a =
single interface from the POV of split horizon but without invalidating lea=
rning of B-MAC to PW bindings unique to each PW. And goes further to discus=
s the decapsulation performed by I-components. IMO everything beyond how a =
PW bundle is treated by a B-component has already crossed a line if the goa=
l is to discuss deltas from IEEE docs.

So it is either overkill from the "this is not a tutorial" point of view as=
 the only requisite statement is about how the B-component needs to treat a=
 set of PWs (e.g. no different than an S-component would). Or inadequate if=
 it is to set the stage for any additional functions the B-component/VPLS b=
oundary could implement (e.g. MMRP driven filtering)...

I actually do not care either way, but if the intent is to set the stage th=
en a simple additional of a couple of sentences.=20

"Frames arriving on non-VPLS B-component interfaces are treated as per 802.=
1ah. BU frames from all non-virtual interfaces are flooded on all B-compone=
nt interfaces participating in the B-VID the frame is tagged with (with the=
 exception of the I/F of arrival).=20

Frames arriving from a CE are treated as per 802.1ah and encapsulated accor=
dingly, with the key salient feature being that if corresponding I-componen=
t cannot resolve a C-MAC to B-MAC binding or the frame is a broadcast or mu=
lticast frame, the frame is encapsualted in a well known I-SID specific res=
erved multicast MAC address upon which MAC filtering MAY be applied by B-co=
mponents. The frame is then forwarded to the B-component where it is treate=
d as described above."

Would IMO be sufficient...others may express it more succintly than I ;-)

Cheers
Dave



=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:17 AM
To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model

Hi Dave,

Based on previous comments we chose to focus the current text only on the d=
eltas from IEEE docs (specifically IEEE 802.1ah): i.e. the I-component brid=
ging procedures are very well described in IEEE 802.1ah.
Also PBB-VPLS interop draft - see the other LC -  has some level of details=
 on the S-tag Interop piece.

If something is missing though we can consider updating the text in one of =
the two drafts. Feel free to send us some suggested text for the two sectio=
ns...

Thanks,
Florin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of David Allan I
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Ali:
>=20
> I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on the=20
> B-MAC layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as that=20
> seemed rather thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the behaviour is=20
> directly analogous to bridging an S-tag even if a B-tag was an=20
> aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPNs...)
>=20
> A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus. ;-)
>=20
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
> One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component in=20
> VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with respect=20
> to PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group of PWs -=20
> e.g., a group of PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is associated=20
> with a broadcast domain (associated with a VLAN). However, in=20
> PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical interface and thus it is treated=20
> as an interface to the B-component and thus enables us to run bridging=20
> protocol such as MMRP over such interface for multicast optimization.
>=20
> I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this=20
> better and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Ali
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > To: Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a=20
> > critical component.
> >
> > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-=20
> > components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and=20
> > what this document is almost totally silent on is in how=20
> > I-components map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved=20
> > multicast MAC addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the=20
> > B-tag. This is how much finer broadcast containment of customer VLANs i=
s performed vs.
> > simply using B-tags.
> >
> > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some=20
> > clue as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
> >
> > For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please=20
> > consider this a formal LC comment.
> >
> > My 2 cents
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the=20
> > > draft =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2=
.
> > >
> > > The draft can be found at:
> > >
> > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> > >
> > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN=20
> > > working group email list.
> > >
> > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Giles
> > >
> > >


From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Oct 11 17:20:51 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:20:43 -0500
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Index: AcyILK76vZP2fg2jRumJ2Y2atMXkCAAC1AVQAAD51GAAALK6IAAAalUAAADk4MAADBpx8A==
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References: <CAB9C08A.F43E%giles.heron@gmail.com> <4E94645E.7080107@cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAE9CA@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7F115A41909B2641A9550322C4DF9D56081AB595@xmb-sjc-22d.amer.cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEA25@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73662C@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEAB6@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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Thanks Dave.  See in-line

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:57 AM
> To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Well, at the risk of being pedantic, right now you are sort of half pregn=
ant....
>=20
> Section 4 describes a chunk of how a B-component behaves, with the provis=
o
> that some arbitrary bundle of virtual interfaces need to be treated like =
a single
> interface from the POV of split horizon but without invalidating learning=
 of B-
> MAC to PW bindings unique to each PW. And goes further to discuss the
> decapsulation performed by I-components. IMO everything beyond how a PW
> bundle is treated by a B-component has already crossed a line if the goal=
 is to
> discuss deltas from IEEE docs.
>=20
> So it is either overkill from the "this is not a tutorial" point of view =
as the only
> requisite statement is about how the B-component needs to treat a set of =
PWs
> (e.g. no different than an S-component would). Or inadequate if it is to =
set the
> stage for any additional functions the B-component/VPLS boundary could
> implement (e.g. MMRP driven filtering)...
>=20
> I actually do not care either way, but if the intent is to set the stage =
then a
> simple additional of a couple of sentences.
>=20
> "Frames arriving on non-VPLS B-component interfaces are treated as per 80=
2.1ah.
> BU frames from all non-virtual interfaces are flooded on all B-component
> interfaces participating in the B-VID the frame is tagged with (with the
> exception of the I/F of arrival).
>=20
> Frames arriving from a CE are treated as per 802.1ah and encapsulated
> accordingly, with the key salient feature being that if corresponding I-
> component cannot resolve a C-MAC to B-MAC binding or the frame is a broad=
cast
> or multicast frame, the frame is encapsualted in a well known I-SID speci=
fic
> reserved multicast MAC address upon which MAC filtering MAY be applied by=
 B-
> components. The frame is then forwarded to the B-component where it is
> treated as described above."

This looks like IEEE 802.1ah procedure right? Nothing about the PBB-VPLS mo=
del in here. I am open to consider adding the text but I do not see the ben=
efit. Am I missing something?
>=20
> Would IMO be sufficient...others may express it more succintly than I ;-)
>=20
> Cheers
> Dave
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.=
com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:17 AM
> To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
> Based on previous comments we chose to focus the current text only on the
> deltas from IEEE docs (specifically IEEE 802.1ah): i.e. the I-component b=
ridging
> procedures are very well described in IEEE 802.1ah.
> Also PBB-VPLS interop draft - see the other LC -  has some level of detai=
ls on the
> S-tag Interop piece.
>=20
> If something is missing though we can consider updating the text in one o=
f the
> two drafts. Feel free to send us some suggested text for the two sections=
...
>=20
> Thanks,
> Florin
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> > To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi Ali:
> >
> > I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on the
> > B-MAC layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as that
> > seemed rather thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the behaviour is
> > directly analogous to bridging an S-tag even if a B-tag was an
> > aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPNs...)
> >
> > A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus. ;-)
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> > To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component in
> > VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with respect
> > to PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group of PWs -
> > e.g., a group of PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is associated
> > with a broadcast domain (associated with a VLAN). However, in
> > PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical interface and thus it is treated
> > as an interface to the B-component and thus enables us to run bridging
> > protocol such as MMRP over such interface for multicast optimization.
> >
> > I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this
> > better and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ali
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > > To: Giles Heron
> > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > >
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a
> > > critical component.
> > >
> > > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging S-
> > > components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB and
> > > what this document is almost totally silent on is in how
> > > I-components map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved
> > > multicast MAC addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the
> > > B-tag. This is how much finer broadcast containment of customer VLANs=
 is
> performed vs.
> > > simply using B-tags.
> > >
> > > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some
> > > clue as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
> > >
> > > For the document to have utility, this should be called out. Please
> > > consider this a formal LC comment.
> > >
> > > My 2 cents
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the
> > > > draft =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=
=B2.
> > > >
> > > > The draft can be found at:
> > > >
> > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> > > >
> > > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN
> > > > working group email list.
> > > >
> > > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Giles
> > > >
> > > >


From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Tue Oct 11 17:31:13 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:31:00 -0400
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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References: <CAB9C08A.F43E%giles.heron@gmail.com> <4E94645E.7080107@cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAE9CA@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7F115A41909B2641A9550322C4DF9D56081AB595@xmb-sjc-22d.amer.cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEA25@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73662C@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEAB6@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73675A@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com>
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HI Florin:

I'm confused as to what hairs you are seeking to split. The document is alr=
eady prescriptive on the B-component behavior when some of the interfaces a=
re PWs above and beyond what is actually necessary. "A B-component is requi=
red to treat a set of PWs this way" is the only statement actually needed i=
n place of all of section 4.

As section 4 exists and IMO offers minimal utility in its current form, I'm=
 simply suggesting adding two sentences or so to finish the picture it is a=
lready painting instead of pruning down to one requirement.=20

To be consistent it is either-or.

Cheers
Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:21 PM
To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model

Thanks Dave.  See in-line

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:57 AM
> To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Well, at the risk of being pedantic, right now you are sort of half pregn=
ant....
>=20
> Section 4 describes a chunk of how a B-component behaves, with the=20
> proviso that some arbitrary bundle of virtual interfaces need to be=20
> treated like a single interface from the POV of split horizon but=20
> without invalidating learning of B- MAC to PW bindings unique to each=20
> PW. And goes further to discuss the decapsulation performed by=20
> I-components. IMO everything beyond how a PW bundle is treated by a=20
> B-component has already crossed a line if the goal is to discuss deltas f=
rom IEEE docs.
>=20
> So it is either overkill from the "this is not a tutorial" point of=20
> view as the only requisite statement is about how the B-component=20
> needs to treat a set of PWs (e.g. no different than an S-component=20
> would). Or inadequate if it is to set the stage for any additional=20
> functions the B-component/VPLS boundary could implement (e.g. MMRP driven=
 filtering)...
>=20
> I actually do not care either way, but if the intent is to set the=20
> stage then a simple additional of a couple of sentences.
>=20
> "Frames arriving on non-VPLS B-component interfaces are treated as per 80=
2.1ah.
> BU frames from all non-virtual interfaces are flooded on all=20
> B-component interfaces participating in the B-VID the frame is tagged=20
> with (with the exception of the I/F of arrival).
>=20
> Frames arriving from a CE are treated as per 802.1ah and encapsulated=20
> accordingly, with the key salient feature being that if corresponding=20
> I- component cannot resolve a C-MAC to B-MAC binding or the frame is a=20
> broadcast or multicast frame, the frame is encapsualted in a well=20
> known I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC address upon which MAC=20
> filtering MAY be applied by B- components. The frame is then forwarded=20
> to the B-component where it is treated as described above."

This looks like IEEE 802.1ah procedure right? Nothing about the PBB-VPLS mo=
del in here. I am open to consider adding the text but I do not see the ben=
efit. Am I missing something?
>=20
> Would IMO be sufficient...others may express it more succintly than I=20
> ;-)
>=20
> Cheers
> Dave
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)=20
> [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:17 AM
> To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
> Based on previous comments we chose to focus the current text only on=20
> the deltas from IEEE docs (specifically IEEE 802.1ah): i.e. the=20
> I-component bridging procedures are very well described in IEEE 802.1ah.
> Also PBB-VPLS interop draft - see the other LC -  has some level of=20
> details on the S-tag Interop piece.
>=20
> If something is missing though we can consider updating the text in=20
> one of the two drafts. Feel free to send us some suggested text for the t=
wo sections...
>=20
> Thanks,
> Florin
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> > To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi Ali:
> >
> > I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on=20
> > the B-MAC layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as=20
> > that seemed rather thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the=20
> > behaviour is directly analogous to bridging an S-tag even if a B-tag=20
> > was an aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPNs...)
> >
> > A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus.=20
> > ;-)
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> > To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component=20
> > in VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with=20
> > respect to PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group=20
> > of PWs - e.g., a group of PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is=20
> > associated with a broadcast domain (associated with a VLAN).=20
> > However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical interface and thus=20
> > it is treated as an interface to the B-component and thus enables us=20
> > to run bridging protocol such as MMRP over such interface for multicast=
 optimization.
> >
> > I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this=20
> > better and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ali
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> > > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > > To: Giles Heron
> > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > >
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a=20
> > > critical component.
> > >
> > > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging=20
> > > S- components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB=20
> > > and what this document is almost totally silent on is in how=20
> > > I-components map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved=20
> > > multicast MAC addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the=20
> > > B-tag. This is how much finer broadcast containment of customer=20
> > > VLANs is
> performed vs.
> > > simply using B-tags.
> > >
> > > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some=20
> > > clue as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
> > >
> > > For the document to have utility, this should be called out.=20
> > > Please consider this a formal LC comment.
> > >
> > > My 2 cents
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the=20
> > > > draft =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=
=B2.
> > > >
> > > > The draft can be found at:
> > > >
> > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> > > >
> > > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN=20
> > > > working group email list.
> > > >
> > > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Giles
> > > >
> > > >


From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Oct 12 14:02:02 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:01:35 -0500
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Index: AcyILK76vZP2fg2jRumJ2Y2atMXkCAAC1AVQAAD51GAAALK6IAAAalUAAADk4MAADBpx8AAAMmugACo4x9A=
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References: <CAB9C08A.F43E%giles.heron@gmail.com> <4E94645E.7080107@cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAE9CA@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7F115A41909B2641A9550322C4DF9D56081AB595@xmb-sjc-22d.amer.cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEA25@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73662C@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEAB6@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73675A@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223E22297@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se>
In-Reply-To: <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223E22297@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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Hi Dave,
We will wait for the end of LC and will discuss all proposed changes betwee=
n co-authors and try to address them.

Note though we had a long discussion in L2VPN some time ago about re-using =
as much as possible the descriptions in the IEEE specs. Sometimes people ar=
e better off reading the  entire text in one place (IEEE802.1ah in our case=
) than just getting a portion of it.

As a result we took great care to include in section 4 only description rel=
ated to PW encapsulation/forwarder: i.e. we pretty much tried to include wo=
rding to describe your statement "A B-component is required to treat a set =
of PWs this way". But we had to elaborate what "way" means and I thought we=
 did it succinctly enough. I guess you are saying we elaborated too much he=
nce your request.
Florin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:31 PM
> To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> HI Florin:
>=20
> I'm confused as to what hairs you are seeking to split. The document is a=
lready
> prescriptive on the B-component behavior when some of the interfaces are =
PWs
> above and beyond what is actually necessary. "A B-component is required t=
o
> treat a set of PWs this way" is the only statement actually needed in pla=
ce of all
> of section 4.
>=20
> As section 4 exists and IMO offers minimal utility in its current form, I=
'm simply
> suggesting adding two sentences or so to finish the picture it is already=
 painting
> instead of pruning down to one requirement.
>=20
> To be consistent it is either-or.
>=20
> Cheers
> Dave
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.=
com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:21 PM
> To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Thanks Dave.  See in-line
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:57 AM
> > To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Well, at the risk of being pedantic, right now you are sort of half pre=
gnant....
> >
> > Section 4 describes a chunk of how a B-component behaves, with the
> > proviso that some arbitrary bundle of virtual interfaces need to be
> > treated like a single interface from the POV of split horizon but
> > without invalidating learning of B- MAC to PW bindings unique to each
> > PW. And goes further to discuss the decapsulation performed by
> > I-components. IMO everything beyond how a PW bundle is treated by a
> > B-component has already crossed a line if the goal is to discuss deltas=
 from
> IEEE docs.
> >
> > So it is either overkill from the "this is not a tutorial" point of
> > view as the only requisite statement is about how the B-component
> > needs to treat a set of PWs (e.g. no different than an S-component
> > would). Or inadequate if it is to set the stage for any additional
> > functions the B-component/VPLS boundary could implement (e.g. MMRP driv=
en
> filtering)...
> >
> > I actually do not care either way, but if the intent is to set the
> > stage then a simple additional of a couple of sentences.
> >
> > "Frames arriving on non-VPLS B-component interfaces are treated as per
> 802.1ah.
> > BU frames from all non-virtual interfaces are flooded on all
> > B-component interfaces participating in the B-VID the frame is tagged
> > with (with the exception of the I/F of arrival).
> >
> > Frames arriving from a CE are treated as per 802.1ah and encapsulated
> > accordingly, with the key salient feature being that if corresponding
> > I- component cannot resolve a C-MAC to B-MAC binding or the frame is a
> > broadcast or multicast frame, the frame is encapsualted in a well
> > known I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC address upon which MAC
> > filtering MAY be applied by B- components. The frame is then forwarded
> > to the B-component where it is treated as described above."
>=20
> This looks like IEEE 802.1ah procedure right? Nothing about the PBB-VPLS =
model
> in here. I am open to consider adding the text but I do not see the benef=
it. Am I
> missing something?
> >
> > Would IMO be sufficient...others may express it more succintly than I
> > ;-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)
> > [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:17 AM
> > To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > Based on previous comments we chose to focus the current text only on
> > the deltas from IEEE docs (specifically IEEE 802.1ah): i.e. the
> > I-component bridging procedures are very well described in IEEE 802.1ah=
.
> > Also PBB-VPLS interop draft - see the other LC -  has some level of
> > details on the S-tag Interop piece.
> >
> > If something is missing though we can consider updating the text in
> > one of the two drafts. Feel free to send us some suggested text for the=
 two
> sections...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Florin
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> > > To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > >
> > > Hi Ali:
> > >
> > > I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on
> > > the B-MAC layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as
> > > that seemed rather thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the
> > > behaviour is directly analogous to bridging an S-tag even if a B-tag
> > > was an aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPNs...)
> > >
> > > A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus.
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> > > To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > >
> > > Hi Dave,
> > >
> > > One of point that this draft is making is that bridging S-component
> > > in VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in PBB-VPLS with
> > > respect to PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is mapped to a group
> > > of PWs - e.g., a group of PWs represent a VLAN emulation and it is
> > > associated with a broadcast domain (associated with a VLAN).
> > > However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical interface and thus
> > > it is treated as an interface to the B-component and thus enables us
> > > to run bridging protocol such as MMRP over such interface for multica=
st
> optimization.
> > >
> > > I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this
> > > better and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Ali
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > > > To: Giles Heron
> > > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a
> > > > critical component.
> > > >
> > > > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than bridging
> > > > S- components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in PBB
> > > > and what this document is almost totally silent on is in how
> > > > I-components map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved
> > > > multicast MAC addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within the
> > > > B-tag. This is how much finer broadcast containment of customer
> > > > VLANs is
> > performed vs.
> > > > simply using B-tags.
> > > >
> > > > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives some
> > > > clue as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section 6.
> > > >
> > > > For the document to have utility, this should be called out.
> > > > Please consider this a formal LC comment.
> > > >
> > > > My 2 cents
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the
> > > > > draft =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridgin=
g=B2.
> > > > >
> > > > > The draft can be found at:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> > > > >
> > > > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN
> > > > > working group email list.
> > > > >
> > > > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Giles
> > > > >
> > > > >


From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Wed Oct 12 14:24:33 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:24:18 -0400
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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References: <CAB9C08A.F43E%giles.heron@gmail.com> <4E94645E.7080107@cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAE9CA@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7F115A41909B2641A9550322C4DF9D56081AB595@xmb-sjc-22d.amer.cisco.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEA25@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73662C@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223DAEAB6@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC73675A@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com> <60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD5223E22297@EUSAACMS0703.eamcs.ericsson.se> <2073A6C5467C99478898544C6EBA3F4602BC736938@USNAVSXCHMBSC3.ndc.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Ok, great=20

Thanks
D

-----Original Message-----
From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin) [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 2:02 PM
To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model

Hi Dave,
We will wait for the end of LC and will discuss all proposed changes betwee=
n co-authors and try to address them.

Note though we had a long discussion in L2VPN some time ago about re-using =
as much as possible the descriptions in the IEEE specs. Sometimes people ar=
e better off reading the  entire text in one place (IEEE802.1ah in our case=
) than just getting a portion of it.

As a result we took great care to include in section 4 only description rel=
ated to PW encapsulation/forwarder: i.e. we pretty much tried to include wo=
rding to describe your statement "A B-component is required to treat a set =
of PWs this way". But we had to elaborate what "way" means and I thought we=
 did it succinctly enough. I guess you are saying we elaborated too much he=
nce your request.
Florin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:31 PM
> To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> HI Florin:
>=20
> I'm confused as to what hairs you are seeking to split. The document=20
> is already prescriptive on the B-component behavior when some of the=20
> interfaces are PWs above and beyond what is actually necessary. "A=20
> B-component is required to treat a set of PWs this way" is the only=20
> statement actually needed in place of all of section 4.
>=20
> As section 4 exists and IMO offers minimal utility in its current=20
> form, I'm simply suggesting adding two sentences or so to finish the=20
> picture it is already painting instead of pruning down to one requirement=
.
>=20
> To be consistent it is either-or.
>=20
> Cheers
> Dave
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)=20
> [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:21 PM
> To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
>=20
> Thanks Dave.  See in-line
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:57 AM
> > To: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin); Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles=20
> > Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Well, at the risk of being pedantic, right now you are sort of half pre=
gnant....
> >
> > Section 4 describes a chunk of how a B-component behaves, with the=20
> > proviso that some arbitrary bundle of virtual interfaces need to be=20
> > treated like a single interface from the POV of split horizon but=20
> > without invalidating learning of B- MAC to PW bindings unique to=20
> > each PW. And goes further to discuss the decapsulation performed by=20
> > I-components. IMO everything beyond how a PW bundle is treated by a=20
> > B-component has already crossed a line if the goal is to discuss=20
> > deltas from
> IEEE docs.
> >
> > So it is either overkill from the "this is not a tutorial" point of=20
> > view as the only requisite statement is about how the B-component=20
> > needs to treat a set of PWs (e.g. no different than an S-component=20
> > would). Or inadequate if it is to set the stage for any additional=20
> > functions the B-component/VPLS boundary could implement (e.g. MMRP=20
> > driven
> filtering)...
> >
> > I actually do not care either way, but if the intent is to set the=20
> > stage then a simple additional of a couple of sentences.
> >
> > "Frames arriving on non-VPLS B-component interfaces are treated as=20
> > per
> 802.1ah.
> > BU frames from all non-virtual interfaces are flooded on all=20
> > B-component interfaces participating in the B-VID the frame is=20
> > tagged with (with the exception of the I/F of arrival).
> >
> > Frames arriving from a CE are treated as per 802.1ah and=20
> > encapsulated accordingly, with the key salient feature being that if=20
> > corresponding
> > I- component cannot resolve a C-MAC to B-MAC binding or the frame is=20
> > a broadcast or multicast frame, the frame is encapsualted in a well=20
> > known I-SID specific reserved multicast MAC address upon which MAC=20
> > filtering MAY be applied by B- components. The frame is then=20
> > forwarded to the B-component where it is treated as described above."
>=20
> This looks like IEEE 802.1ah procedure right? Nothing about the=20
> PBB-VPLS model in here. I am open to consider adding the text but I do=20
> not see the benefit. Am I missing something?
> >
> > Would IMO be sufficient...others may express it more succintly than=20
> > I
> > ;-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)=20
> > [mailto:florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:17 AM
> > To: David Allan I; Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > Based on previous comments we chose to focus the current text only=20
> > on the deltas from IEEE docs (specifically IEEE 802.1ah): i.e. the=20
> > I-component bridging procedures are very well described in IEEE 802.1ah=
.
> > Also PBB-VPLS interop draft - see the other LC -  has some level of=20
> > details on the S-tag Interop piece.
> >
> > If something is missing though we can consider updating the text in=20
> > one of the two drafts. Feel free to send us some suggested text for=20
> > the two
> sections...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Florin
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> > > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:00 AM
> > > To: Ali Sajassi (sajassi); Giles Heron
> > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > >
> > > Hi Ali:
> > >
> > > I was more interested in some mention of how bridging overlayed on=20
> > > the B-MAC layer worked in the packet walkthrough in section 4 as=20
> > > that seemed rather thin on IMO a key point. As otherwise the=20
> > > behaviour is directly analogous to bridging an S-tag even if a=20
> > > B-tag was an aggregate of S-tags... (e.g. a VPN of VPNs...)
> > >
> > > A bit of elaboration in section 6 I would consider to be a bonus.
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ali Sajassi (sajassi) [mailto:sajassi@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:46 AM
> > > To: David Allan I; Giles Heron
> > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > >
> > > Hi Dave,
> > >
> > > One of point that this draft is making is that bridging=20
> > > S-component in VPLS IS different than bridging B-component in=20
> > > PBB-VPLS with respect to PE model. In VPLS/H-VPLS, an S-VLAN is=20
> > > mapped to a group of PWs - e.g., a group of PWs represent a VLAN=20
> > > emulation and it is associated with a broadcast domain (associated wi=
th a VLAN).
> > > However, in PBB-VPLS, a PW represents a logical interface and thus=20
> > > it is treated as an interface to the B-component and thus enables=20
> > > us to run bridging protocol such as MMRP over such interface for=20
> > > multicast
> optimization.
> > >
> > > I think your point is that the section 6 needs to articulate this=20
> > > better and I agree and we will expand it a bit more in the next rev.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Ali
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> > > > Behalf Of David Allan I
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:18 AM
> > > > To: Giles Heron
> > > > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
> > > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > For what is largely a tutorial document, IMO it is missing a=20
> > > > critical component.
> > > >
> > > > IMO bridging B-components over VPLS is no different than=20
> > > > bridging
> > > > S- components, done & dusted. The key difference introduced in=20
> > > > PBB and what this document is almost totally silent on is in how=20
> > > > I-components map per S-tag BU traffic to I-SID specific reserved=20
> > > > multicast MAC addresses, and how MAC filtering is used within=20
> > > > the B-tag. This is how much finer broadcast containment of=20
> > > > customer VLANs is
> > performed vs.
> > > > simply using B-tags.
> > > >
> > > > This plays into the packet walkthrough description and gives=20
> > > > some clue as to why specific references (e.g. MMRP) are in section =
6.
> > > >
> > > > For the document to have utility, this should be called out.
> > > > Please consider this a formal LC comment.
> > > >
> > > > My 2 cents
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (2011/10/11 17:44), Giles Heron wrote:
> > > > > This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the=20
> > > > > draft =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridgin=
g=B2.
> > > > >
> > > > > The draft can be found at:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-
> > > > > 04
> > > > >
> > > > > Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN=20
> > > > > working group email list.
> > > > >
> > > > > This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Giles
> > > > >
> > > > >


From xuxiaohu@huawei.com  Thu Oct 13 03:10:35 2011
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From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Oct 13 07:36:14 2011
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To: nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: Network Overlays in Taipai
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:36:02 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Hi.

I've been informed that we will be having a session on network
overlays at the Taipai meeting.

After a discussion with the ADs, the nvo3 work area has been deemed to
already fit within the scope of the l2vpn WG. Although this is a new
work area in some sense, we will not need to have a separate BOF as is
the normal sequence when trying to create a WG.

The L2VPN WG will have two sessions in Taipai, one of which will be
dedicated to the topic of network overlays. I don't know yet which day
that session will be, as the draft schedule has not been published
yet.

I will be organizing the session. So if you'd like to present during
the session, please let me know. And if you want to submit an ID on
the topic, the deadlines are:

    * 2011-10-24 (Monday): Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document
      (-00) submission by 17:00 PT (00:00 UTC), upload using IETF ID
      Submission Tool.

    * 2011-10-31 (Monday): Internet Draft final submission cut-off by
      17:00 PT (00:00 UTC), upload using IETF ID Submission Tool.

Further discussion should move to the L2VPN list (some already
has). Those of you not already on the l2vpn list can subscribe here:

     General Discussion: l2vpn@ietf.org
     To Subscribe:       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l2vpn
     Archive:            http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/maillist.html


I'm looking forward to a productive discussion!

Thomas

From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Oct 13 14:11:33 2011
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To: nvo3@ietf.org, l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [nvo3] Network Overlays in Taipai
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Comments: In-reply-to Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> message dated "Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:36:02 -0400."
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:08:30 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Just as an FYI, the intial Taipai schedule is out at
http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/

L2VPN has two slots:

      Monday, 1PM
      Thursday, 9AM

We'll have to coordinate with the L2VPN chairs as to which slot will
cover overlays.

That said, I've been warned already by the ADs (and long-time IETFers
know this) that this is an initial schedule, and will likely change
(this is often the case with IETF agendas). So for those planning on
attending, the safest thing to do would be to plan on being in Taipai
M-F. Either or both of these sessions could still be moved in order to
accomodate general scheduling issues (including to Friday!!!).

Thomas


From tnadeau@lucidvision.com  Thu Oct 13 14:39:51 2011
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Subject: Software Defined Networks (SDN) BoF in Taipei
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:34:00 -0400
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	As an FYI, the initial schedule is out.  The SDN BoF is planned =
for Thursday afternoon from 1520-1720 in room 201 DEF.

http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/

	As usual, caveat emptor in that this is the initial schedule =
which often changes.  Please plan on being there M-F in case the =
schedule changes.

	--Tom


From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Oct 13 16:52:10 2011
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To: david.black@emc.com
Subject: Re: [nvo3] Network Overlays in Taipei
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Comments: In-reply-to <david.black@emc.com> message dated "Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:47:12 -0400."
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:52:00 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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> For the current schedule, Monday 1p is the same slot as armd, which
> has a significant overlap of interest with nvo3, so Thursday, 9a
> would probably be a better choice.

Indeed, that is a problem. Thanks for pointing it out. 

Thomas

From david.black@emc.com  Thu Oct 13 16:49:24 2011
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From: <david.black@emc.com>
To: <narten@us.ibm.com>, <nvo3@ietf.org>, <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:47:12 -0400
Subject: RE: [nvo3] Network Overlays in Taipei
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Thomas,

For the current schedule, Monday 1p is the same slot as armd, which has a s=
ignificant
overlap of interest with nvo3, so Thursday, 9a would probably be a better c=
hoice.

Thanks,
--David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvo3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of T=
homas Narten
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 5:09 PM
> To: nvo3@ietf.org; l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [nvo3] Network Overlays in Taipai
>=20
> Just as an FYI, the intial Taipai schedule is out at
> http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/
>=20
> L2VPN has two slots:
>=20
>       Monday, 1PM
>       Thursday, 9AM
>=20
> We'll have to coordinate with the L2VPN chairs as to which slot will
> cover overlays.
>=20
> That said, I've been warned already by the ADs (and long-time IETFers
> know this) that this is an initial schedule, and will likely change
> (this is often the case with IETF agendas). So for those planning on
> attending, the safest thing to do would be to plan on being in Taipai
> M-F. Either or both of these sessions could still be moved in order to
> accomodate general scheduling issues (including to Friday!!!).
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> nvo3 mailing list
> nvo3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3


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Subject: Re: [nvo3] Network Overlays in Taipei
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From: Benson Schliesser <bschlies@cisco.com>
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References: <201110131436.p9DEa2Ej006983@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <201110132108.p9DL8Ukl010058@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E058CFE62B2@MX14A.corp.emc.com> <201110132352.p9DNq0Tm013078@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com>
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FYI - I've already asked the secretariat to help resolve the ARMD/L2VPN =
conflict. I'll post follow-up details when this is sorted.

Cheers,
-Benson


On Oct 13, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Thomas Narten wrote:

>> For the current schedule, Monday 1p is the same slot as armd, which
>> has a significant overlap of interest with nvo3, so Thursday, 9a
>> would probably be a better choice.
>=20
> Indeed, that is a problem. Thanks for pointing it out.=20
>=20
> Thomas


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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Subject: re: possible scope gap//re: [nvo3] L2VPN overlap?
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</head>
<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is a=
 mistake that I should correct. That is
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Data Center Mobility (<a h=
ref=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-center-mobility)=
"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">http://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-center-mobility)</span></a>
 still uses L2 overlay (i.e., MAC-based forwarding ) to connect VMs which a=
re belong to the same subnet, and host routes are only used for inter-subne=
t communication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Xiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> Xuxiaoh=
u
<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2011</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">10</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">9</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 10:45<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> 'Murari Sridharan'; Thomas Narten; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> l2vpn@ietf.org; 'l3vpn@ietf.org'<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> possible scope gap//re: [nvo3] L2VPN overlap?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It is a go=
od question. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">IMHO, It=
=A1=AFs absolutely possible to realize network virtualization in a data cen=
ter or across multiple data centers by using L3 overlay, especially
 host route based IP-only L2VPN service. Host route based IP-only L2VPN ser=
vice could also allow the hosts within a give VPN instance to act as if the=
y were located within a subnet/LAN except that only IP traffic is supported=
. Compared to those MAC forwarding
 based L2VPN services (i.e., L2 overlay) such as VPLS, &nbsp;host route bas=
ed IP-only L2VPN service does seem a bit restrictive since those legacy non=
-IP applications (e.g., link-local multicast, non-IP unicast) would not be =
supported. However, host based IP-only
 L2VPN service has many unique and charming advantages in addressing the sc=
aling issues that today=A1=AFs cloud data centers are facing, such as ARP b=
roadcast storm reduction, unknown unicast flooding avoidance, MAC table red=
uction on CE switches, active-active
 DC exit and ARP table reduction on DC exit routers...<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Examples o=
f such approach are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Virtual Su=
bnet (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">http://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06</span></a>)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Data Cente=
r Mobility (<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-=
center-mobility)"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">http:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raggarwa-data-center-mobility)</span></a><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">VL2(http:/=
/research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=3D80693)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Xiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> nvo3-bo=
unces@ietf.org [mailto:nvo3-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=FA=
=B1=ED </span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:=CB=CE=CC=E5">Murari Sridharan<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2011</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">10</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">4</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 12:43<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Thomas Narten; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Re: [nvo3] L2VPN overlap?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Why are we restricting t=
he discussion to just L2 overlays? The virtual topology can be L3 as well.<=
br>
<br>
Sent from my Windows Phone<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thomas Narten</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sent:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">10/3/2011 7:04 PM</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">To:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">nvo3@ietf.org</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Subject:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[nvo3] L2VPN overlap?</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">FYI, a discussion of sorts started on the L2VPN =
list as to whether L2<br>
overlays as proposed for this list are already in-scope for the L2VPN<br>
WG.<br>
<br>
I.e., see <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/msg=
02874.html">
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/msg02874.html</a><br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
nvo3 mailing list<br>
nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/nvo3</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com  Fri Oct 14 05:08:29 2011
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To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:08:14 -0400
Subject: [l2vpn] L2vpn WG sessions at IETF 82 in Taipei, Taiwan - meeting dates/times
Thread-Topic: [l2vpn] L2vpn WG sessions at IETF 82 in Taipei, Taiwan - meeting dates/times
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Hi,
The meeting sessions for the l2vpn working group at IETF 82 in Taipei have =
been set. They are at the following dates and times:

    l2vpn Session 1 (2.5 hours)
    Monday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500
    Room Name: 201 ABC

    l2vpn Session 2 (2 hours)
    Thursday, Morning Session I 0900-1130
    Room Name: 3F Banquet

The second session on Thursday will be mainly focused on discussing and def=
ining the problem that new drafts related to providing a layer2 service in =
a Data center environment are trying to address. For some, it may be known =
as NV03 work, and there was email exchange on the l2vpn working group email=
 list related to that. It was decided that this work will be presented and =
discussed in the l2vpn working group with a main focus on defining the prob=
lem and using the solutions in the drafts posted as examples of solution bu=
t not to debate the solutions for now. We are trying to give the l2vpner's =
headsup on that, but there will be more communication on this session withi=
n the upcoming 2 weeks. The l3vpn WG is also cc'd as some may have interest=
.

Thanks,
Giles & Nabil

--_000_CABD97091FA4Enabilnbitarverizoncom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: sp=
ace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Consolas; ">Hi,</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
">The meeting sessions for the l2vpn working group at IETF 82 in Taipei hav=
e been set. They are at the following dates and times:</span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"A=
pple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;l2vpn=
 Session 1 (2.5 hours)</span></div><div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas=
; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Monday, Afte=
rnoon Session I 1300-1500</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Room Name=
: 201 ABC</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D=
"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"font-famil=
y: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;l2vpn Session 2 (2 hours)</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consol=
as; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thurs=
day, Morning Session I 0900-1130</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Con=
solas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ro=
om Name: 3F Banquet</span></div></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
"><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><br></span></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">The second s=
ession on Thursday will be mainly focused on discussing and defining the pr=
oblem that new drafts related to providing a layer2 service in a Data cente=
r environment are trying to address. For some, it may be known as NV03 work=
, and there was email exchange on the l2vpn working group email list relate=
d to that. It was decided that this work will be presented and discussed in=
 the l2vpn working group with a main focus on defining the problem and usin=
g the solutions in the drafts posted as examples of solution but not to deb=
ate the solutions for now. We are trying to give the l2vpner's headsup on t=
hat, but there will be more communication on this session within the upcomi=
ng 2 weeks. The l3vpn WG is also cc'd as some may have interest.</span></di=
v><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consol=
as; "><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=
=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">Thanks,</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Consolas; font-size: medium; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">Gil=
es &amp; Nabil</span></div></body></html>

--_000_CABD97091FA4Enabilnbitarverizoncom_--

From giles.heron@gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 11:47:18 2011
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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:47:32 +0100
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: WG adoption of draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt?
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There seems to be good consensus to go ahead with this as a WG draft.

Authors, would you please republish as:

draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-reqt-00.

Thanks

Nabil & Giles


On 29/09/2011 20:32, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-key-l2vpn-vpls-etree-reqt-04
> 
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
> 
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-Tree is in scope, and we have a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-Tree to IESG by March
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
> 
> Please respond by Thursday 13th of October.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Nabil & Giles
> 
> 



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Subject: L3 VPN4DC discussion in L3vpn WG session, and Bar BOF in Taipei,
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:15:30 -0500
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References: <CABD9709.1FA4E%nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com>
From: "Luyuan Fang (lufang)" <lufang@cisco.com>
To: <l3vpn@ietf.org>, <l2vpn@ietf.org>, <sdnp-bounces@lucidvision.com>
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Heads-up for those who are interested in vpn4dc discussion in Taipei.

=20

Per IETF schedule http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/

L3VPN session has one hour on Wed. Nov. 16, 15:10 - 16:10PM.

(Note that the schedule may change, as usual.)

=20

L3VPN WG chairs will set the meeting agenda; we will work with the
chairs to best use that 1 hour.

=20

For those who are interested in vpn4dc Bar BOF, please ping me off-line.
We will find a Bar, a corner in the lobby, or go dinner to work
together.

=20

Thanks,

Luyuan


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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Heads-up
for those who are interested in vpn4dc discussion in =
Taipei.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Per
IETF schedule <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82/">http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/82=
/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>L3VPN
session has one hour on Wed. Nov. 16, 15:10 &#8211; =
16:10PM.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(Note
that the schedule may change, as usual.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>L3VPN
WG chairs will set the meeting agenda; we will work with the chairs to =
best use
that 1 hour.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>For
those who are interested in vpn4dc Bar BOF, please ping me off-line. We =
will
find a Bar, a corner in the lobby, or go dinner to work =
together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Luyuan<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>

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From giles.heron@gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 11:32:48 2011
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:33:07 +0100
Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpms-frmwk-requirements
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
"Framework and Requirements for Virtual Private Multicast Service (VPMS)"

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpms-frmwk-requirements-04

Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.

This WG last call will close on Wednesday November 2nd 2011.
 
Regards,
Giles



From anton.ivanov@kot-begemot.co.uk  Thu Oct 20 00:52:14 2011
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Hi list,

Some comments:

Section 5 - UDP checksumming

If the outer UDP is correctly checksummed the virtual switch MAY trust 
the checksum and instruct locally connected endpoints not to checksum 
the inner frame.

Rationale - if traffic starts locally and terminates locally in a 
datacenter inner checksum has to be computed fully in software by the 
sending/receiving VMs. That is extra overhead which is not really 
necessary if the sending and the receiving host have computed the outer 
checksum in hardware on the physical ethernet interface (or in software 
in the ethernet driver).

Unless I am mistaken, this is similar to the case where checksums are 
being turned off on tap for local to local traffic. In this case we are 
simply extending it from one virtual switch to another.

-- 
     Humans are allergic to change. They love to say, "We've always
done it this way." I try to fight that. That's why I have a clock
on my wall that runs counter-clockwise.   -- R.A. Grace Hopper

A. R. Ivanov
E-mail:  anton.ivanov@kot-begemot.co.uk


From lucy.yong@huawei.com  Fri Oct 21 07:49:19 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:49:07 +0000
From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Subject: FW:   draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls
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This informational draft describes the ways of TRILL over IP/MPLS with existing technologies. 
It also introduces a hierarchical L2VPN solution using RBridges and MPLS.
Welcome any input and look forward to discussing this in Taipei.

Lucy

> -----Original Message-----
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> mpls
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From giles.heron@gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 08:20:55 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:21:18 +0100
Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn't
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Friday 4th of November.

Thanks!

Giles



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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:30:49 -0700
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Yes

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Giles Heron
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:21 AM
> To: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>=20
> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>=20
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>=20
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.
> If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
> shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>=20
> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Giles
>=20


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri Oct 21 08:38:16 2011
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Requirements for MEF E-Tree Support in VPLS
	Author(s)       : Raymond Key
                          Simon Delord
                          Frederic Jounay
                          Lu Huang
                          Zhihua Liu
                          Manuel Paul
                          Ruediger Kunze
                          Nick Del Regno
                          Joshua Rogers
	Filename        : draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-reqt-00.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2011-10-15

   This document provides functional requirements for Metro Ethernet
   Forum (MEF) Ethernet Tree (E-Tree) support in Virtual Private LAN
   Service (VPLS). It is intended that potential solutions will use
   these requirements as guidelines.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-reqt-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-reqt-00.txt

From akatlas@gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 08:46:30 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:46:27 -0400
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Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Yes please

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
> shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>
> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Giles
>
>
>

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Yes please<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 =
AM, Giles Heron <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:giles.heron@gmail.c=
om">giles.heron@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex;">
This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req=
-01" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2=
vpn-evpn-req-01</a><br>
<br>
should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.<br>
<br>
Now that we&#39;ve adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a=
<br>
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July<br>
2012. =A0If you think this draft is a good starting point for those<br>
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft. =A0If=
<br>
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn&=
#39;t<br>
be adopted - which we can then debate.<br>
<br>
Please respond by Friday 4th of November.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Giles<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>

--bcaec520e903ea4d4704afd0f971--

From giles.heron@gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 08:58:49 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:59:04 +0100
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Hopefully "yes please" here means "yes I've read the doc and yes I'd like it
to be adopted as a WG draft"? ;-)

It'd be great if everyone who has read the draft can respond to this call
(and if those who haven't read it could read it first and then respond!)

Giles

On 21/10/2011 16:46, "Alia Atlas" <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes please
> 
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>> 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>> 
>> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>> 
>> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
>> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
>> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
>> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
>> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
>> shouldn't
>> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>> 
>> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Giles
>> 
>> 
>> 



From akatlas@gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 09:01:47 2011
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Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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--bcaec520e6279ce2a904afd1301a
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Naturally.  I have read the draft and would like it to be adopted as a WG
draft.
I find that it does a good job of describing the requirements around the
problem.

Alia

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hopefully "yes please" here means "yes I've read the doc and yes I'd like
> it
> to be adopted as a WG draft"? ;-)
>
> It'd be great if everyone who has read the draft can respond to this call
> (and if those who haven't read it could read it first and then respond!)
>
> Giles
>
> On 21/10/2011 16:46, "Alia Atlas" <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes please
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
> >>
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
> >>
> >> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
> >>
> >> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
> >> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
> >> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> >> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.
>  If
> >> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
> >> shouldn't
> >> be adopted - which we can then debate.
> >>
> >> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Giles
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

--bcaec520e6279ce2a904afd1301a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Naturally.=A0 I have read the draft and would like it to be adopted as a WG=
 draft.<br>I find that it does a good job of describing the requirements ar=
ound the problem.<br><br>Alia<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct=
 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Giles Heron <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
giles.heron@gmail.com">giles.heron@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hopefully &quot;yes please&quot; here means=
 &quot;yes I&#39;ve read the doc and yes I&#39;d like it<br>
to be adopted as a WG draft&quot;? ;-)<br>
<br>
It&#39;d be great if everyone who has read the draft can respond to this ca=
ll<br>
(and if those who haven&#39;t read it could read it first and then respond!=
)<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Giles<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On 21/10/2011 16:46, &quot;Alia Atlas&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@g=
mail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Yes please<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gi=
les.heron@gmail.com">giles.heron@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn=
-evpn-req-01" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-ra=
ggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Now that we&#39;ve adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and =
we have a<br>
&gt;&gt; milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by=
 July<br>
&gt;&gt; 2012. =A0If you think this draft is a good starting point for thos=
e<br>
&gt;&gt; requirements then please reply indicating your support for the dra=
ft. =A0If<br>
&gt;&gt; not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft=
<br>
&gt;&gt; shouldn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt; be adopted - which we can then debate.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Please respond by Friday 4th of November.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks!<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Giles<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--bcaec520e6279ce2a904afd1301a--

From lucy.yong@huawei.com  Fri Oct 21 09:22:48 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:22:18 +0000
From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Subject: FW:   draft-mack-crane-l2vpn-spb-o-mpls-00.txt
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> 
> Abstract:
>    This informational document describes ways to interconnect a
>    Shortest Path Tree (SPT) Region over WAN connections using MPLS
>    Pseudo Wires (PWs) with existing SPB and MPLS standards. It also
>    describes how a combination of SPB and MPLS can provide a
>    hierarchical scalable L2VPN.
> 

Welcome the feedback on this draft.

Lucy

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From ssalam@cisco.com  Fri Oct 21 10:03:31 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:03:24 -0700
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
From: Samer Salam <ssalam@cisco.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <CAC6F3EC.1FB67%ssalam@cisco.com>
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Yes / support.

Regards,
Samer


On 11-10-21 8:21 AM, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
> 
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
> 
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
> 
> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Giles
> 
> 


From josh.rogers@twcable.com  Fri Oct 21 12:04:12 2011
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From: "Rogers, Josh" <josh.rogers@twcable.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:03:26 -0400
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Agree.




On 10/21/11 10:21 AM, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

>This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>
>should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>
>Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
>milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
>2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
>requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
>not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
>shouldn't
>be adopted - which we can then debate.
>
>Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Giles
>
>


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From andrew.dolganow@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Oct 21 12:48:06 2011
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From: "Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew)" <andrew.dolganow@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:48:01 -0500
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Yes

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:21 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn'=
t
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Friday 4th of November.

Thanks!

Giles



From roberto.fragassi@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Oct 21 13:10:24 2011
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From: "Fragassi, Roberto (Roberto)" <roberto.fragassi@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:09:57 -0500
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Support

-Bert

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:21 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn'=
t
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Friday 4th of November.

Thanks!

Giles



From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Fri Oct 21 13:42:11 2011
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>, "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:42:07 -0400
Subject: RE: draft-mack-crane-l2vpn-spb-o-mpls-00.txt
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Hi Lucy:

In general I'm supportive of this draft.=20

My first blush comment is that what is missing is a multi-site scenario as =
per Figure 3 but with B-tagged ACs and using an emulated LAN service...
In other words, a hierarchical model but not requiring a fully integrated S=
PB/PE node and/or a PW mesh per B-VID, as all B-VIDs are common to all site=
s.

I'd be happy to work with the authors to incorporate such a model...

Cheers
Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Luc=
y yong
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 9:22 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] FW: draft-mack-crane-l2vpn-spb-o-mpls-00.txt


>=20
> Abstract:
>    This informational document describes ways to interconnect a
>    Shortest Path Tree (SPT) Region over WAN connections using MPLS
>    Pseudo Wires (PWs) with existing SPB and MPLS standards. It also
>    describes how a combination of SPB and MPLS can provide a
>    hierarchical scalable L2VPN.
>=20

Welcome the feedback on this draft.

Lucy
_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
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From paul@unbehagen.net  Fri Oct 21 14:25:41 2011
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Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Support

--
Paul Unbehagen


> On 10/21/11 10:21 AM, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>>=20
>> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>>=20
>> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
>> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
>> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
>> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If=

>> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
>> shouldn't
>> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>>=20
>> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Giles
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propr=
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From lucy.yong@huawei.com  Fri Oct 21 15:10:23 2011
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:10:02 +0000
From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: draft-mack-crane-l2vpn-spb-o-mpls-00.txt
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Hi David,

Thank you for your supportive!

I like to understand your model more. Since SPB does not support multi-access link, the draft proposes a way for multi-sites interconnection. 

Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 3:42 PM
To: Lucy yong; l2vpn@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-mack-crane-l2vpn-spb-o-mpls-00.txt

Hi Lucy:

In general I'm supportive of this draft. 

My first blush comment is that what is missing is a multi-site scenario as per Figure 3 but with B-tagged ACs and using an emulated LAN service...
In other words, a hierarchical model but not requiring a fully integrated SPB/PE node and/or a PW mesh per B-VID, as all B-VIDs are common to all sites.

I'd be happy to work with the authors to incorporate such a model...

Cheers
Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 9:22 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] FW: draft-mack-crane-l2vpn-spb-o-mpls-00.txt


> 
> Abstract:
>    This informational document describes ways to interconnect a
>    Shortest Path Tree (SPT) Region over WAN connections using MPLS
>    Pseudo Wires (PWs) with existing SPB and MPLS standards. It also
>    describes how a combination of SPB and MPLS can provide a
>    hierarchical scalable L2VPN.
> 

Welcome the feedback on this draft.

Lucy
_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

From florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Oct 21 18:06:19 2011
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From: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:06:13 -0500
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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I am supportive of the draft (and yes I read it Giles :) ). I just wonder w=
hether we should adopt it as is or we should try to generalize it to more g=
eneric L2 DC requirements. =20

As you know we will have a special L2VPN session in Taipei dedicated to DC =
proposals. There were a number of drafts (see NVO3 proposals) on L2 multi-t=
enancy for DC with sections on problem statement that might generate DC req=
uirements beyond the scope of evpn-req draft.=20

Should we go ahead with this or wait until Taipei to see how is the best to=
 move forward?

Comments?
Florin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Giles Heron
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:59 AM
> To: Alia Atlas
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>=20
> Hopefully "yes please" here means "yes I've read the doc and yes I'd like=
 it
> to be adopted as a WG draft"? ;-)
>=20
> It'd be great if everyone who has read the draft can respond to this call
> (and if those who haven't read it could read it first and then respond!)
>=20
> Giles
>=20
> On 21/10/2011 16:46, "Alia Atlas" <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Yes please
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> w=
rote:
> >
> >> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
> >>
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
> >>
> >> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
> >>
> >> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have =
a
> >> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by Jul=
y
> >> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> >> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft. =
 If
> >> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
> >> shouldn't
> >> be adopted - which we can then debate.
> >>
> >> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Giles
> >>
> >>
> >>
>=20


From lizhong.jin@zte.com.cn  Sat Oct 22 07:01:32 2011
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Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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From: Lizhong Jin<lizhong.jin@zte.com.cn>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:00:54 +0800
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Yes, support.

Lizhong


> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:21:18 +0100
> From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
> To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
> Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
> Message-ID: <CAC74C7E.FC6F%giles.heron@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
> 
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
> 
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft. If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft 
shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
> 
> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Giles
> 
> 
> 

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<br><font size=2><tt>Yes, support.</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Lizhong</tt></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt><br>
&gt; ------------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:21:18 +0100<br>
&gt; From: Giles Heron &lt;giles.heron@gmail.com&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &lt;l2vpn@ietf.org&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01<br>
&gt; Message-ID: &lt;CAC74C7E.FC6F%giles.heron@gmail.com&gt;<br>
&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; &nbsp; charset=&quot;US-ASCII&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have
a<br>
&gt; milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by
July<br>
&gt; 2012. &nbsp;If you think this draft is a good starting point for those<br>
&gt; requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.
&nbsp;If<br>
&gt; not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
shouldn't<br>
&gt; be adopted - which we can then debate.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Please respond by Friday 4th of November.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Giles<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; </tt></font><br><pre>
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From sajassi@cisco.com  Sat Oct 22 11:22:25 2011
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Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:22:21 -0700
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From: "Ali Sajassi (sajassi)" <sajassi@cisco.com>
To: "Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)" <florin.balus@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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Hi Florin,

Thanks for your support. I think what we have right now constitutes a
good set of requirements and if we need to expand it in the next rev as
the result of the future discussions, then we will do that accordingly.
To have a draft to be adopted as a WG draft, all it means is that there
is a good level of consensus to continue this work in the WG and it
seems there is such consensus.

Cheers,
Ali=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:06 PM
> To: Giles Heron
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>=20
> I am supportive of the draft (and yes I read it Giles :) ). I just
> wonder whether we should adopt it as is or we should try to generalize
> it to more generic L2 DC requirements.
>=20
> As you know we will have a special L2VPN session in Taipei dedicated
to
> DC proposals. There were a number of drafts (see NVO3 proposals) on L2
> multi-tenancy for DC with sections on problem statement that might
> generate DC requirements beyond the scope of evpn-req draft.
>=20
> Should we go ahead with this or wait until Taipei to see how is the
> best to move forward?
>=20
> Comments?
> Florin
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > Giles Heron
> > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:59 AM
> > To: Alia Atlas
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
> >
> > Hopefully "yes please" here means "yes I've read the doc and yes I'd
> like it
> > to be adopted as a WG draft"? ;-)
> >
> > It'd be great if everyone who has read the draft can respond to this
> call
> > (and if those who haven't read it could read it first and then
> respond!)
> >
> > Giles
> >
> > On 21/10/2011 16:46, "Alia Atlas" <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes please
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron
> <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
> > >>
> > >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-
> 01
> > >>
> > >> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
> > >>
> > >> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we
> have a
> > >> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG
by
> July
> > >> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> > >> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the
> draft.  If
> > >> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this
draft
> > >> shouldn't
> > >> be adopted - which we can then debate.
> > >>
> > >> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks!
> > >>
> > >> Giles
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >


From william.zayas@fibercrossing.net  Sat Oct 22 20:14:31 2011
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Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:14:26 -0400
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support.

wz,


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lizhong Jin=20
  To: l2vpn@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 10:00 AM
  Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01



  Yes, support.=20

  Lizhong=20


  > ------------------------------
  >=20
  > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:21:18 +0100
  > From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
  > To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
  > Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
  > Message-ID: <CAC74C7E.FC6F%giles.heron@gmail.com>
  > Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=3D"US-ASCII"
  >=20
  > This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
  >=20
  > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
  >=20
  > should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
  >=20
  > Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we =
have a
  > milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by =
July
  > 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
  > requirements then please reply indicating your support for the =
draft.  If
  > not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft =
shouldn't
  > be adopted - which we can then debate.
  >=20
  > Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
  >=20
  > Thanks!
  >=20
  > Giles
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20

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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and =
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addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the =
originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those =
of the individual sender.
This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam =
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>support.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>wz,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dlizhong.jin@zte.com.cn =
href=3D"mailto:lizhong.jin@zte.com.cn">Lizhong=20
  Jin</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dl2vpn@ietf.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 22, =
2011 10:00=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: WG adoption of=20
  draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><BR><FONT size=3D2><TT>Yes, support.</TT></FONT> =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2><TT>Lizhong</TT></FONT> <BR><BR><FONT size=3D2><TT><BR>&gt;=20
  ------------------------------<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 =

  16:21:18 +0100<BR>&gt; From: Giles Heron &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:giles.heron@gmail.com">giles.heron@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>&g=
t; To:=20
  &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:l2vpn@ietf.org">l2vpn@ietf.org</A>&gt;<BR>&gt; =
Subject: WG=20
  adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01<BR>&gt; =
Message-ID:=20
  &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:CAC74C7E.FC6F%giles.heron@gmail.com">CAC74C7E.FC6F%giles.h=
eron@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  Content-Type: text/plain; &nbsp; charset=3D"US-ASCII"<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
This is a=20
  request to gauge consensus as to whether:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
  =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01<BR>&g=
t;=20
  <BR>&gt; should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Now =
that=20
  we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a<BR>&gt; =

  milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by=20
  July<BR>&gt; 2012. &nbsp;If you think this draft is a good starting =
point for=20
  those<BR>&gt; requirements then please reply indicating your support =
for the=20
  draft. &nbsp;If<BR>&gt; not then please reply giving some reasons why =
you=20
  think this draft shouldn't<BR>&gt; be adopted - which we can then=20
  debate.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Please respond by Friday 4th of =
November.<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt; Thanks!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Giles<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
  =
</TT></FONT><BR><PRE>----------------------------------------------------=
----
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From nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com  Sun Oct 23 15:53:12 2011
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To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:53:04 -0400
Subject: L2VPN Agenda Slot Call for IETF 82 - Taipei
Thread-Topic: L2VPN Agenda Slot Call for IETF 82 - Taipei
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--_000_CACA130F24EC3nabilnbitarverizoncom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,
Please let us know if you have a time-slot request for the L2VPN sessions a=
t IETF 82=96 Taipei. Please, email us your request by Sunday October 30, 20=
11 along with the following information:
1) Draft title
2) Presenter name
3) Requested duration

Please remember that we have the following sessions as previously communica=
ted

    l2vpn Session 1 (2 hours)
    Monday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500
    Room Name: 201 ABC

    l2vpn Session 2 (2.5 hours)
    Thursday, Morning Session I 0900-1130
    Room Name: 3F Banquet

Please note that the main priority in the first session on Monday will be g=
iven to drafts that are clearly within the scope of the current L2VPN chart=
er .

The second session on Thursday will be mainly focused on discussing and def=
ining the problem that new drafts related to providing a layer2 service in =
a Data center environment are trying to address. There have been email exch=
anges on that. For some, it may be known as NV03 work. We will be co-ordina=
ting/deciding on what will be presented in that session with the focus as s=
tated in mind.

Following are additional  key dates to remember :


 *   2011-10-24 (Monday): Internet Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00)=
 submission by 17:00 PT (00:00 UTC).
 *   2011-10-31 (Monday): Internet Draft final submission cut-off by 17:00 =
PT (00:00 UTC).

Thanks,
Giles and Nabil

--_000_CACA130F24EC3nabilnbitarverizoncom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span=
" style=3D"font-size: 15px; font-family: Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial=
; ">Hi,<br>Please let us know if you have a time-slot request for the L2VPN=
 sessions at IETF 82=96 Taipei. Please, email us your request by Sunday Oct=
ober 30, 2011 along with the following information:<br>1) Draft title<br>2)=
 Presenter name<br>3) Requested duration<br><br></span></div><div><span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px; font-family: Calibri, Ver=
dana, Helvetica, Arial; ">Please remember that we have the following sessio=
ns as previously communicated</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-s=
pan" style=3D"font-size: 15px; font-family: Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Ar=
ial; "><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font=
-size: 15px; font-family: Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; "><span class=
=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:=
 14px; "><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Consol=
as; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;l2vpn Session 1 (2 hours)</span></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nb=
sp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Monday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500</span></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Room Name: 201 ABC</span></div><div style=3D"font-family=
: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></=
div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Cons=
olas; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;l2vpn Session 2 (2.5 hours)</span></div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thursday, Morning Session I 0900-1130</span></div>=
<div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas=
; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Room Name: 3F Banquet</span></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><br=
></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; "><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Consolas; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif; "><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span=
" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px;">Pl=
ease note that the main priority in the first session on Monday will be giv=
en to drafts that are clearly within the scope of the current L2VPN charter=
 .&nbsp;</span></font></span></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" fa=
ce=3D"Calibri,Verdana,Helvetica,Arial"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" siz=
e=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px;"><br></s=
pan></font></font></div></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Cons=
olas; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-s=
pan" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px;"=
>The second session on Thursday will be mainly focused on discussing and de=
fining the problem that new drafts related to providing a layer2 service in=
 a Data center environment are trying to address. There have been email exc=
hanges on that. For some, it may be known as NV03 work. We will be co-ordin=
ating/deciding on what will be presented in that session with the focus as =
stated in mind.&nbsp;</span></font></span></div></span></span></div><div><s=
pan class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px; font-family: Calib=
ri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; "><br>Following are additional &nbsp;key dat=
es to remember :<br><br><ul class=3D"style4" style=3D"font-family: Verdana,=
 Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; margin-top: 0px; font-size: 13px; background=
-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><li class=3D"style7"><strong><span style=3D"f=
ont-family: Calibri; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"4"><span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px;">2011-10-24 (Monday):</s=
pan></font></span></strong><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; "><font cla=
ss=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"font-size: 15px;">&nbsp;</span></font></span><span style=3D"font-family=
: Calibri; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"App=
le-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px;">Internet Draft Cut-off for initia=
l document (-00) submission by 17:00 PT (00:00 UTC).</span></font></span></=
li><li class=3D"style7"><strong><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; "><fon=
t class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" st=
yle=3D"font-size: 15px;">2011-10-31 (Monday):</span></font></span></strong>=
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" siz=
e=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px;">&nbsp;<=
/span></font></span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; "><font class=3D"A=
pple-style-span" size=3D"4"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-=
size: 15px;">Internet Draft final submission cut-off by 17:00 PT (00:00 UTC=
).</span></font></span></li></ul><br>Thanks,<br>Giles and Nabil</span></div=
></body></html>

--_000_CACA130F24EC3nabilnbitarverizoncom_--

From lucy.yong@huawei.com  Sun Oct 23 17:42:16 2011
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:42:07 +0000
From: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls-00.txt
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> A new version of I-D, draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls-00.txt has been
> successfully submitted by Lucy Yong and posted to the IETF repository.
> 
> Filename:	 draft-yong-trill-trill-o-mpls
> Revision:	 00
> Title:		 Transparent Interconnection of Lots of Links (TRILL)
> over an MPLS PSN (Packet Switched Network)
> Creation date:	 2011-10-23
> WG ID:		 Individual Submission
> Number of pages: 14
> 
> Abstract:
>    This informational document describes ways to interconnect TRILL
>    RBridges over WAN connections by using MPLS Pseudo Wire (PW) or
>    Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) with existing TRILL and MPLS
>    standards. It also describes the combination of RBridge and MPLS to
>    provide a hierarchical scalable L2VPN.
> 
> 

Your input on this draft are welcome.

Lucy

From aldrin.isaac@gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 19:58:52 2011
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Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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I support this draft as well.

Cheers -- aldrin


On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron wrote:

> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>=20
> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>=20
> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have =
a
> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by =
July
> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft =
shouldn't
> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>=20
> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Giles
>=20
>=20


From nmohammad@juniper.net  Mon Oct 24 11:54:16 2011
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From: Nadeem Mohammad <nmohammad@juniper.net>
To: 'Giles Heron' <giles.heron@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:55 -0400
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
Thread-Topic: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Yes.

Nadeem.

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:59 AM
To: Alia Atlas
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

Hopefully "yes please" here means "yes I've read the doc and yes I'd like i=
t
to be adopted as a WG draft"? ;-)

It'd be great if everyone who has read the draft can respond to this call
(and if those who haven't read it could read it first and then respond!)

Giles

On 21/10/2011 16:46, "Alia Atlas" <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes please
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>=20
>> This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
>>=20
>> should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
>>=20
>> Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
>> milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
>> 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
>> requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  I=
f
>> not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft
>> shouldn't
>> be adopted - which we can then debate.
>>=20
>> Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Giles
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20



From manishgupta@juniper.net  Mon Oct 24 12:25:11 2011
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From: Manish Gupta <manishgupta@juniper.net>
To: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:24:10 -0700
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Support it.

-Manish

  > ------------------------------
  >=20
  > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:21:18 +0100
  > From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
  > To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
  > Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
  > Message-ID: <CAC74C7E.FC6F%giles.heron@gmail.com>
  > Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=3D"US-ASCII"
  >=20
  > This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:
  >=20
  > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
  >=20
  > should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.
  >=20
  > Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
  > milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
  > 2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
  > requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  =
If
  > not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shou=
ldn't
  > be adopted - which we can then debate.
  >=20
  > Please respond by Friday 4th of November.
  >=20
  > Thanks!
  >=20
  > Giles
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20



From psampath@juniper.net  Mon Oct 24 15:59:28 2011
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From: Prabakaran Thirumali Sampath <psampath@juniper.net>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:57:28 -0700
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Yes

Thanks,
Prabakaran T Sampath.

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:21 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn'=
t
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Friday 4th of November.

Thanks!

Giles



From xuxiaohu@huawei.com  Tue Oct 25 23:55:53 2011
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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:55:31 +0000
From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Subject: re: L2VPN Agenda Slot Call for IETF 82 - Taipei
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<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap: bre=
ak-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I would li=
ke to request a time-slot for presenting IS-IS VPLS which is intended to pr=
ovide a scalable layer2 service in the multi-tenant cloud
 data centers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1) Draft t=
itle: draft-xu-l2vpn-vpls-isis-01 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l2vp=
n-vpls-isis-01)<br>
2) Presenter name: Xiaohu Xu<br>
3) Requested duration: 15 mins<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BR,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Xiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> l2vpn-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B4=FA=
=B1=ED </span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:=CB=CE=CC=E5">Bitar, Nabil N<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=
=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"> 2011</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">10</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">24</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 6:53<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> l2vpn@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Thomas Narten; Giles Heron; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> L2VPN Agenda Slot Call for IETF 82 - Taipei<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span class=3D"apple-=
style-span"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hi,</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">Please let us know if you have a time-slot=
 request for the L2VPN sessions at IETF 82=A8C Taipei. Please, email us you=
r request by Sunday October 30, 2011 along with the following information:<=
/span><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">1) Draft title</span><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">2) Presenter name</span><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">3) Requested duration</span></span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:black">Please remember that we have the following sessions as=
 previously communicated</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;l2vpn Session 1 (2 hours)</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Monday, Afternoon Session I=
 1300-1500<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Room Name: 201 ABC<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;l2vpn Session 2 (2.5 h=
ours)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thursday, Morning Sess=
ion I 0900-1130<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Room Name: 3F Banquet<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Consolas;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:black">Please note that the main priority in the first sessio=
n on Monday will be given to drafts that are clearly within
 the scope of the current L2VPN charter .&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:black">The second session on Thursday will be mainly focused =
on discussing and defining the problem that new drafts related
 to providing a layer2 service in a Data center environment are trying to a=
ddress. There have been email exchanges on that. For some, it may be known =
as NV03 work. We will be co-ordinating/deciding on what will be presented i=
n that session with the focus as
 stated in mind.&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:black"><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">Following are additional &nbsp;key dates t=
o remember :</span></span><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white">
<span class=3D"apple-style-span"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
>2011-10-24 (Monday):</span></b></span><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;Internet
 Draft Cut-off for initial document (-00) submission by 17:00 PT (00:00 UTC=
).</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white">
<span class=3D"apple-style-span"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">2011-10-31 =
(Monday):</span></b></span><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;">&nbsp;Internet
 Draft final submission cut-off by 17:00 PT (00:00 UTC).</span></span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">Thanks,</span><br>
<span class=3D"apple-style-span">Giles and Nabil</span></span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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From giles.heron@gmail.com  Thu Oct 27 08:45:18 2011
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Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:45:48 +0100
Subject: Re: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
To: <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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This draft has passed WG Last Call - though there were some comments from
Dave Allen which Ali and Florin will incorporate.

Giles

On 11/10/2011 09:44, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> =B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.
>=20
> The draft can be found at:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
> =20
> Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
> email list.=20
>=20
> This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> =20
> Regards,
> Giles
>=20
>=20




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Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:45:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
From: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>
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This draft has passed WG Last Call.

Giles


On 11/10/2011 09:47, "Giles Heron" <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
> =B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2.
>=20
> The draft can be found at:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
> =20
> Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
> email list.=20
>=20
> This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
> =20
> Regards,
> Giles
>=20
>=20




From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Oct 27 15:11:11 2011
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-mib-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Virtual Private Lan Services (VPLS) Management Informati=
on Base
	Author(s)       : Thomas D. Nadeau
                          A S Kiran Koushik
                          Rohit Mediratta
                          Virtual Private Lan Services
	Filename        : draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-mib-06.txt
	Pages           : 45
	Date            : 2011-10-27

    This memo defines an experimental portion of the Management
    Information Base for use with network management protocols in the
    Internet community.  In particular, it describes managed objects
    for modeling of Virtual Private LAN services. It needs to be used
    in conjunction with Pseudo Wire (PW) Management Information Base
    [RFC5601].


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-mib-06.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-mib-06.txt

From senad@juniper.net  Thu Oct 27 19:10:34 2011
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To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:03:35 -0400
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Support.

/Senad

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From: "Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)" <pranjal.dutta@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 03:32:53 +0530
Subject: RE: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model
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Support

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:45 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model

This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
=B3Extensons to VPLS PE Model for Provider Backbone Bridging=B2.

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-pe-model-04
=20
Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.=20

This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
=20
Regards,
Giles



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From: "Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)" <pranjal.dutta@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
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Support

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:48 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: Last call for draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02

This is the start of a two-week working group last call on the draft
=B3VPLS Interoperability with Provider Backbone Bridges=B2.

The draft can be found at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-pbb-vpls-interop-02
=20
Please, review the draft and send any comments to the L2VPN working group
email list.=20

This WG last call will close on Tuesday October 25th 2011.
=20
Regards,
Giles



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From: "Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)" <pranjal.dutta@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com>, "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 03:35:26 +0530
Subject: RE: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
Thread-Topic: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01
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Support

-----Original Message-----
From: l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of G=
iles Heron
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:21 AM
To: l2vpn@ietf.org
Subject: WG adoption of draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

This is a request to gauge consensus as to whether:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-raggarwa-l2vpn-evpn-req-01

should be accepted as an L2VPN WG draft.

Now that we've adopted the new charter E-VPN is in scope, and we have a
milestone item to submit a requirements draft for E-VPN to IESG by July
2012.  If you think this draft is a good starting point for those
requirements then please reply indicating your support for the draft.  If
not then please reply giving some reasons why you think this draft shouldn'=
t
be adopted - which we can then debate.

Please respond by Friday 4th of November.

Thanks!

Giles



From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Oct 31 10:39:06 2011
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks Work=
ing Group of the IETF.

	Title           : LDP Extensions for Optimized MAC Address Withdrawal in H=
-VPLS
	Author(s)       : Pranjal Kumar Dutta
                          Florin Balus
                          Olen Stokes
                          Geraldine Calvignac
	Filename        : draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-05.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2011-10-31

   [RFC4762] describes a mechanism to remove or unlearn MAC addresses
   that have been dynamically learned in a VPLS Instance for faster
   convergence on topology change. The procedure also removes MAC
   addresses in the VPLS that do not require relearning due to such
   topology change.

   This document defines an enhancement to the MAC Address Withdrawal
   procedure with empty MAC List [RFC4762], which enables a Provider
   Edge(PE) device to remove only the MAC addresses that need to be
   relearned.

   Additional extensions to [RFC4762] MAC Withdrawal procedures are
   specified to provide optimized MAC flushing for the PBB-VPLS
   specified in [PBB-VPLS Model].


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-05.txt

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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-ldp-mac-opt-05.txt

From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org  Mon Oct 31 14:45:02 2011
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--NextPart

A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks Working Group of the IETF.

    Title         : ARP Mediation for IP Interworking of Layer 2 VPN
    Author(s)     : H. Shah, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-l2vpn-arp-mediation-18.txt
    Pages         : 33
    Date          : 2011-10-31
    
The Virtual Private Wire Service (VPWS) [RFC4664] provides 
     point-to-point connections between pairs of Customer Edge (CE) 
     devices.  It does so by binding two Attachment Circuits (each 
     connecting a CE device with a Provider Edge, PE, device) to a 
     pseudowire (connecting the two PEs).  In general, the Attachment 
     Circuits must be of the same technology (e.g., both Ethernet, 
     both ATM), and the pseudowire must carry the frames of that 
     technology.  However, if it is known that the frames' payload 
     consists solely of IP datagrams, it is possible to provide a 
     point-to-point connection in which the pseudowire connects 
     Attachment Circuits of different technologies. This requires the 
     PEs to perform a function known as "ARP Mediation". ARP 
     Mediation refers to the process of resolving Layer 2 addresses 
     when different resolution protocols are used on either 
     Attachment Circuit. The methods described in this document are 
     applicable even when the CEs run a routing protocol between 
     them, as long as the routing protocol runs over IP.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2vpn-arp-mediation-18.txt

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