From zhangmingui@huawei.com Sun Dec 1 17:38:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2ADF1ADF60 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2013 17:38:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id quQuECymBQT5 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2013 17:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0641AD6B9 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2013 17:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id AYN10914; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 01:38:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 01:37:40 +0000 Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 01:38:24 +0000 Received: from NKGEML508-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.180]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:38:12 +0800 From: Mingui Zhang To: Jeff Tantsura , Jakob Heitz , "Zhoupeng (Jewpon)" Subject: RE: Why we consider the method of "label sharing for fast PE protection" Thread-Topic: Why we consider the method of "label sharing for fast PE protection" Thread-Index: AQHO7KnnOipy9BGf+UCLlfrkrV4ZMJo7++CAgAAxHwCAA/cgQA== Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 01:38:11 +0000 Message-ID: <4552F0907735844E9204A62BBDD325E73368C8E6@nkgeml508-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <3D5F67B7-F96F-4B61-B6C1-4C12D8DB0B07@ericsson.com> <60DEDD93F5E54B4AB55647B8B6C748399E30CD@eusaamb109.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <60DEDD93F5E54B4AB55647B8B6C748399E30CD@eusaamb109.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.102.175] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , "UTTARO, JAMES" , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 01:38:34 -0000 SGksDQoNCldlIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgaXQncyBpbXBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIGdldCBhIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBv biB0aGlzIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBub3cuIA0KDQpXZSB0aGluayBhIHByb2R1Y3RpdmUgd2F5IGZv ciB1cyBpcyB0byB3b3JrIHdpdGggb3RoZXIgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIG9mZiB0aGUgbGlzdCB0byBy ZWFjaCBhIHZpYWJsZSBzdGFuZGFyZC4NCg0KVGhhbmtzIHRvIGFsbCBjb21tZW50cyB5b3UgcG9z dGVkIG9uIHRoZSBsaXN0IGZvciB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LCB3ZSBnb3QgYSBudW1iZXIgb2YgdmFsaWQg cG9pbnRzIHdoaWNoIGRlc2VydmUgb3VyIGZ1cnRoZXIgc3R1ZHkgLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMs DQpNaW5ndWkgJiBaaG91IFBlbmcNCg0KDQo+LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj5G cm9tOiBMM1ZQTiBbbWFpbHRvOmwzdnBuLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBK ZWZmIFRhbnRzdXJhDQo+U2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDMwLCAyMDEzIDU6MDIgQU0N Cj5UbzogSmFrb2IgSGVpdHo7IFpob3VwZW5nIChKZXdwb24pDQo+Q2M6IGJydW5vLmRlY3JhZW5l QG9yYW5nZS5jb207IFVUVEFSTywgSkFNRVM7IGwzdnBuQGlldGYub3JnDQo+U3ViamVjdDogUmU6 IFdoeSB3ZSBjb25zaWRlciB0aGUgbWV0aG9kIG9mICJsYWJlbCBzaGFyaW5nIGZvciBmYXN0IFBF DQo+cHJvdGVjdGlvbiINCj4NCj4rMQ0KPg0KPllvdSBjb3VsZCBsb29rIGludG8gNDc2MSB3aGlj aCB0b29rIGEgc2ltaWxhciBhcHByb2FjaC4NCj4NCj5DaGVlcnMsDQo+SmVmZg0KPg0KPg0KPi0t LS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+RnJvbTogSmFrb2IgSGVpdHogPGpha29iLmhlaXR6 QGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4NCj5EYXRlOiBGcmlkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDI5LCAyMDEzIDEwOjA1IEFN DQo+VG86ICJaaG91cGVuZyAoSmV3cG9uKSIgPGpld3Bvbi56aG91QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+DQo+Q2M6 ICJicnVuby5kZWNyYWVuZUBvcmFuZ2UuY29tIiA8YnJ1bm8uZGVjcmFlbmVAb3JhbmdlLmNvbT4s ICJVVFRBUk8sDQo+SkFNRVMiIDxqdTE3MzhAYXR0LmNvbT4sICJsM3ZwbkBpZXRmLm9yZyIgPGwz dnBuQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPlN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBXaHkgd2UgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIG1ldGhvZCBv ZiAibGFiZWwgc2hhcmluZyBmb3IgZmFzdCBQRQ0KPnByb3RlY3Rpb24iDQo+DQo+PldoZW4geW91 IGFsbG9jYXRlIGEgbGFiZWwgcmFuZ2UsIHlvdSBtdXN0IGFsbG9jYXRlIG1vcmUgdGhhbiB5b3Ug bmVlZA0KPj5mb3Igcm9vbSB0byBncm93LiBUaGlzIGNvdWxkIGNhdXNlIHlvdSB0byB1c2UgMiB0 byAxMCB0aW1lcyBhcyBtYW55DQo+PmxhYmVscyBhcyB5b3Ugd291bGQgd2VyZSB5b3UgdG8gYWxs b2NhdGUgdGhlIGxhYmVscyBpbmRpdmlkdWFsbHkuDQo+Pg0KPj5JbiBhZGRpdGlvbiwgb25jZSBh IGxhYmVsIHJhbmdlIHJ1bnMgb3V0LCB5b3UgaGF2ZSB0byBmaW5kIGEgbmV3IHJhbmdlDQo+PmFu ZCBwb3NzaWJseSByZWFycmFuZ2UgeW91ciBleGlzdGluZyByYW5nZXMgdG8gbWFrZSByb29tLiBP bmNlIHRoYXQNCj4+aGFwcGVucywgeW91IHdpbGwgY2F1c2UgYSBsb3Qgb2YgbmV0d29yayBjaHVy biB3aGVuIHlvdSBjaGFuZ2UNCj4+dGhvdXNhbmRzIG9mIGxhYmVscy4NCj4+DQo+Pi0tDQo+Pkph a29iIEhlaXR6Lg0KPj4NCj4+DQo+Pk9uIE5vdiAyOSwgMjAxMywgYXQgMTowOSBBTSwgIlpob3Vw ZW5nIChKZXdwb24pIg0KPj48amV3cG9uLnpob3VAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT4NCj4+d3JvdGU6DQo+Pg0K Pj4+ICAiIFRoZSBsYWJlbHMgYW1vdW50IG5lZWRlZCB3aWxsIG5vdCBzaWduaWZpY2FudCBpbmNy ZWFzZSBkdWUgdG8gdGhlDQo+Pj5kcmFmdCAiLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gcmVnYXJkc6OsDQo+Pj4gWmhv dSBQZW5nDQo+Pj4NCg0K From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Mon Dec 2 01:45:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623261AE0C8 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 01:45:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4hDsi25Fbmez for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 01:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9834A1AE0B6 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 01:45:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAX60281; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 09:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:44:31 +0000 Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:45:12 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 17:45:06 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , "VIGOUREUX, MARTIN (MARTIN)" , "l3vpn-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Request a WG adoption poll for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02 Thread-Topic: Request a WG adoption poll for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02 Thread-Index: Ac7vQyzKs26ZmrBWTBeHPGOpAoEH3g== Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:45:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE08239D8B@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 09:45:19 -0000 Hi co-chairs, We have just submitted a revision of the virtual subnet draft (http://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02). In this revision, We have= simplified the doc greatly according to your previous suggestions by remov= ing the sections about PE RIB/FIB reduction.=20 Since this draft is stable enough and there are a lot of interests on the a= pproach described in this doc (BTW, there has been at least two implementat= ions in practice, AFAIK), we co-authors would like you to start a WG adopti= on poll for this doc. Thanks. Best regards, Xiaohu (on behalf of all co-authors) From thomas.morin@orange.com Mon Dec 2 02:54:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254441AE335 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 02:54:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gLEL3BkX3AxW for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 02:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias245.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.245]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C961AE2DC for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 02:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.199]) by omfeda11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DF4B31B8376; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:54:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.186]) by omfeda06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C9A5AC8056; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:54:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cc7e:e40b:42ef:164e]) by PEXCVZYH01.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:54:38 +0100 From: To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Xuxiaohu , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt Thread-Index: AQHO70zk0vqL3LlUMEGy1m7HSBfcnA== Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 10:54:37 +0000 Message-ID: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 x-originating-ip: [10.197.38.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2013.11.19.63615 Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:54:47 -0000 SGkgZXZlcnlvbmUsDQoNClBsZWFzZSB0cnkgdG8ga2VlcCB5b3VyIGVtYWlsIFN1YmplY3QgbGlu ZSB0aWR5IGVub3VnaCAhDQoNCihZb3UgY291bGQgZXZlbiBnbyBhcyBmYXIgYXMgc2VsZWN0aW5n IGEgdXNlZnVsIHRvcGljIGxpbmUpDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCg0KLVRob21hcywgYXMgV0cgY28t Y2hhaXINCg0KDQoyMDEzLTExLTI5LCBIZW5kZXJpY2t4LCBXaW0gKFdpbSk6DQo+IFlvdSB2aW9s 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2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631F71AE3B1 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 03:39:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMhlfRJ7peId for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 03:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63D11A1F58 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 03:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by omfedm14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C3A2C22C399; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:39:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.186]) by omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AFAFE27C053; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:39:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cc7e:e40b:42ef:164e]) by PEXCVZYH01.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:39:10 +0100 From: To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" , Xuxiaohu , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO71MdcGsl0jsRo06Q8Y37JLIhyw== Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:39:09 +0000 Message-ID: <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US 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aWZpZWQuClRoYW5rIHlvdS4KCg== From wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com Mon Dec 2 06:18:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D749A1AE22A for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 06:18:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ibkk_MOl9ztp for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 06:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8EA1AC85E for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 06:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id rB2EIBFW002734 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Dec 2013 08:18:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id rB2EI8H9006216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Dec 2013 15:18:10 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.62]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 15:18:09 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , Xuxiaohu , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO71Mv6XPGo5Anb0GRutRkdqTiPZpA9AEA Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:18:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-ID: <4F9506010DA75A40B7FAFF6C656D42B8@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:18:27 -0000 VGhvbWFzLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBtb3JlIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyB0aGF0IGJyZWFrIHdoZW4gdGhpcyBz b2x1dGlvbiBpcw0KZGVwbG95ZWQuIEhBIHN5c3RlbXMgZS5nLiBNeSB2aWV3IGlzIHRoYXQgdGhl 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YXkgYmUgYWx0ZXJlZCwgT3JhbmdlIGlzIG5vdCBsaWFibGUgZm9yIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHRoYXQgaGF2 ZQ0KPmJlZW4gbW9kaWZpZWQsIGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFsc2lmaWVkLg0KPlRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCj4N Cg0K From internet-drafts@ietf.org Mon Dec 2 06:21:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA37E1AE2CC; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 06:21:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cN_McP2WhHYk; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8D31AE481; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 06:21:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-mldp-nlri-04.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.83.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20131202142133.31500.46871.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 06:21:33 -0800 Cc: l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:21:41 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Layer 3 Virtual Private Networks Working = Group of the IETF. Title : Encoding mLDP FECs in the NLRI of BGP MCAST-VPN Routes Author(s) : IJsbrand Wijnands Eric C. Rosen Uwe Joorde Filename : draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-mldp-nlri-04.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2013-12-02 Abstract: Many service providers offer "BGP/MPLS IP VPN" service to their customers. Existing IETF standards specify the procedures and protocols that a service provider uses in order to offer this service to customers who have IP unicast and IP multicast traffic in their VPNs. It is also desirable to be able to support customers who have MPLS multicast traffic in their VPNs. This document specifies the procedures and protocol extensions that are needed to support customers who use the Multicast Extensions to Label Distribution Protocol (mLDP) as the control protocol for their MPLS multicast traffic. Existing standards do provide some support for customers who use mLDP, but only under a restrictive set of circumstances. This document generalizes the existing support to include all cases where the customer uses mLDP, without any restrictions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-mldp-nlri There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-mldp-nlri-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-mldp-nlri-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Tue Dec 3 00:55:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D301AE0DC for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 00:55:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mQFc3Ae2_MUe for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 00:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1AD1AE0D1 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 00:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id kl14so2673949pab.33 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:55:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bkSGvW8FIE4TCU4sp/WmY1wFK2Ocu8mmPDAA92xzXx0=; b=GNMLL9x33oGlNvRK/FeAPC80j9b6oFpkHoR1khhPS3kouZfSDD+7b19y+f78QE4zDk kxqtcM8PmVGv83IKvQliADLfqV4q831CiG9xlncDfFFZMPgctjVCmmGtme1zVx6OiK0m SzARM+cbCqZW96uPV8iojqrkwTCOEHEQOiTvsXI65Serqreks146W/xocJrzhW5uem9W LkHgTsO1p4Uad1IuA7xhAdS7iU2vvcurGQUeETCcQIbAeNsYWvHNo22NidbEDCmPvYL8 EB9HDKmEQMzlIMBwQn853ZAWX/tOaT/CdwhAWf/MHeZierKE3Nq4jzMP3bLbNGStAUVb L4+w== X-Received: by 10.69.31.97 with SMTP id kl1mr36598707pbd.127.1386060915390; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.24.234.26] (nat-service4.juniper.net. [66.129.225.151]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id wp8sm128361426pbc.26.2013.12.03.00.55.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:55:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 00:55:11 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:55:22 -0000 Wim, On Dec 2, 2013, at 6:18 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) = wrote: > Thomas, there is more applications that break when this solution is > deployed. HA systems e.g. My view is that the draft break a = fundamental IP > behaviour it should not be adopted at all. Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL = decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant with = Host and Router requirement RFCs. It is very hard for an application to use anything other than an IP = service. First because it is difficult to code, second because some of = the most popular platforms to deploy applications (e.g. AWS) do not = support anything other than an IP service. There may be environments where people feel the need to emulate a = specific L2 technology; but applications that depend on L2 are always = going to be in world of hurt since there are actually different L2 = technologies in use. For instance a switched ethernet is different than = a E-VPN based ethernet that does control plane based learning (i.e. = unknown unicast is not forwarded); and the behavior is different from a = hub based ethernet where all traffic is broadcasted. Pedro. >=20 > On 02/12/13 12:39, "thomas.morin@orange.com" > wrote: >=20 >> Hi everyone, >>=20 >> I believe we may benefit from taking a step back. Let's not only look = at >> TTL and traceroute (see my comment below on traceroute itself), and >> let's also try to distinguish between discussions that are useful to >> have here and discussions that may be more useful elsewhere. >>=20 >> First of all, it is obvious that this draft does not claim, nor >> achieves, an exact emulation of L2 connectivity. Even though TTL >> decrementing could be avoided (perhaps with a cost penalty on some >> platforms), other things will also happen differently from how things >> happen on a LAN: source MAC addresses will not be preserved, the >> possibility of addressing any IP packet to any host on the (emulated >> LAN) acting as a gateway, the possibility of doing broadcast and >> link-local multicast (that one would possibly be fixable), any dot-1p >> marking will be lost, and of course the possibility of using non-IP >> protocols. This may break some applications. But, to me this does = not >> rule out such a solution, as soon as the limitations are understood = and >> the solution is used in context where they do not raise issues. >>=20 >> Second, let's see what we need to discuss here in l3vpn. Wim, you are >> saying "this is not in-line with NVO3 requirements.". To me, it = seems >> that this solution deserves to be described, if only as a input for >> documenting in detail what will happen differently than from a LAN = and >> specific cases of applications that will behave differently, or = break, >> if this is used. >>=20 >> -Thomas >>=20 >> [ On traceroute, I would actually argue -- keeping in mind that >> traceroute is a troubleshooting tool -- that in the context of this >> approach, the output of traceroute will actually provide more >> information useful for troubleshooting, than what we would have with = a >> bit-for-bit emulation of L2. Than can be seen as a benefit as well. = If >> we make a //, although a l3vpn is supposed to behave, from the VPN >> customer point of view, like one router -- traceroute can actually >> provide some information on what happens between the PEs -- AFAIK = this >> has never been considered like "breaking traceroute". ] >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> 2013-11-29, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>> You violate basic forwarding mechanisms: don=A1=AFt decrement TTL = for >>>> intra-subnet traffic and this is not in-line with NVO3 = requirements. >>>> Discussion closed for me. >>>>=20 >>>> On 29/11/13 10:03, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) = [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C229=C8=D5 15:55 >>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8= =B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4:= =B4=F0=B8=B4: >>>>>> New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 29/11/13 07:56, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C229=C8=D5 12:59 >>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: New >>>>>> Version Notification >>>>>>>> for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I believe we have a disagreement here. The trace route is not >>>>>>>> providing the output expected. If you define a solution you = need >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> ensure the applications behave in the way IP was designed and = as >>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>> your solution is not compliant to this. >>>>>>> I have to emphasize that it's absolutely the expected output in = the >>>>>>> case where the Proxy ARP [RFC1027] is deployed. Unless you are >>>>>>> strongly >>>>>>> against the Proxy ARP technology itself which was actually = designed >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> most the same time when IP was initially designed... >>>>>> WH> I am not against this, but there are other ways of = implementing >>>>>> it >>>>>> WH> as >>>>>> I mentioned it before and these solution do not have the issues >>>>>> which I >>>>>> outlined. >>>>> But these solutions may have issues that you haven't outlined:) >>>>> Different >>>>> approaches have their different target scenarios. That's the = reason >>>>> why >>>>> both Layer2 and Layer3 overlays are considered by the NVo3 WG. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> If you like it or not, it is reality. >>>>>>> No matter you like it or now, the approach of using the host = routing >>>>>>> and the Proxy ARP to emulate an extended subnet has been >>>>>>> increasingly >>>>>>> implemented by more and more vendors in their data center = network >>>>>>> products. It's the reality. >>>>>> WH> this doesn=A1=AFt mean that IETF need to adopt it, since it = breaks a >>>>>> WH> number >>>>>> of things >>>>> You'd better explicit list those things which would be broken. It >>>>> would >>>>> be very helpful for the NVo3 WG. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 29/11/13 02:35, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 18:46 >>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = New >>>>>>>> Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Please look at the VRF table instance in that example. The = packet >>>>>>>>>> destined for 2.2.2.x is forwarded according to the default = route >>>>>>>>>> advertised by PE-3. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Since each PE acts as a default GW, there is no impact to the >>>>>>>>>> output of the trace route for an IP address which is not = within >>>>>>>>>> the same subnet as the trace-route originator (IMO, this is = the >>>>>>>>>> major usage of trace route). >>>>>>>>>> If you just want to try a trace route for an IP address which = is >>>>>>>>>> within the same subnet of the trace-route originator, there = are >>>>>>>>>> just two more hops (i.e., ingress PE and egress PE) in the >>>>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>>>> (see below), does it matter in practice? >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> tracert 1.1.1.5 >>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 1.1.1.5(1.1.1.5), max hops: 30 ,packet length: >>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>> 2 1.1.1.1 120 ms 80 ms 110 ms >>>>>>>>>> 3 1.1.1.5 140 ms 100 ms 90 ms >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> WH> and this is what I meant with broken since the trace = route is >>>>>>>>>> expecting 1 hop iso 3. >>>>>>>>> It's no more a surprise once you have understood that the >>>>>>>>> intra-subnet traffic is forwarded at L3. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> As I have said before, there is no impact on the normal trace >>>>>>>>> route >>>>>>>>> function. By the way, are you usually using the trace route >>>>>>>>> command >>>>>>>>> rather than the PING command on one host to check the = connectivity >>>>>>>>> to another host when these two hosts are actually within the = same >>>>>> subnet? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 09:45, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 15:44 >>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>>>> Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 08:33, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 = 14:13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4:= =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 04:02, "Xuxiaohu" = wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 = 1:53 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/11/13 09:12, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C227=C8=D5 = 14:14 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8= =B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are changing the forwarding plane of a L3 service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and as such this is not implementable in merchant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> silicon so >>>>>>>> far. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a flexible network processor to do this and = I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am not sure about the performance implications. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Future merchant silicon could be adapted to support = such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TTL handling requirement as long as Layer3 forwarding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for intra-subnet traffic is worthwhile in practice. In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addition, even with the existing L3 forwarding chips >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which don't support that TTL handling requirement, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Layer3 overlay could still be applicable to most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications except a few ones where TTL is set to 1. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> even with what you say you break basic applications >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> like trace route, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it will not break the trace-route application. It = has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been successfully verified in our implementation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> can you show an output. W/o the TTL handling your = hops >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the example illustrated at Figure 4 of the draft, the = trace >>>>>>>>>>>>> route output on Host A is as follows (note that 2.2.2.1 is = a >>>>>>>>>>>>> vrf interface address of PE-3): >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> [Host_1]tracert 2.2.2.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 2.2.2.1(2.2.2.1), max hops: 30 ,packet = length: >>>>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 60 ms 50 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 2.2.2.1 90 ms 60 ms 80 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> figure 4 is addressing 1.1.1.x not 2.2.2.x and the = output >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> should be >>>>>>>>>>>> from a intra-subnet >>>>>>>>>>> Please look at the VRF table instance in that example. The >>>>>>>>>>> packet >>>>>>>>>>> destined for 2.2.2.x is forwarded according to the default = route >>>>>>>>>>> advertised by PE-3. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Since each PE acts as a default GW, there is no impact to = the >>>>>>>>>>> output of the trace route for an IP address which is not = within >>>>>>>>>>> the same subnet as the trace-route originator (IMO, this is = the >>>>>>>>>>> major usage of trace >>>>>>>>>> route). >>>>>>>>>>> If you just want to try a trace route for an IP address = which is >>>>>>>>>>> within the same subnet of the trace-route originator, there = are >>>>>>>>>>> just two more hops (i.e., ingress PE and egress PE) in the >>>>>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>>>>> (see below), does it matter in practice? >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> tracert 1.1.1.5 >>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 1.1.1.5(1.1.1.5), max hops: 30 ,packet = length: >>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>> 2 1.1.1.1 120 ms 80 ms 110 ms >>>>>>>>>>> 3 1.1.1.5 140 ms 100 ms 90 ms >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. SO I don=A1=AFt want to adopt it at all with such = impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>>>>> DP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why I am against this draft is because it has a = big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact on the data-plane. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does EVPN have no impact on the data-plane? Are you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against that draft as well due to its impact on the >>>>>> data plane? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> not in its basic form >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the major selling-point of that technology = (i.e., >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> active-active >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-homing) is lost in its basic form accordingly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> no its not >>>>>>>>>>>>> If no change to the existing data plane, how to realize = the >>>>>>>>>>>>> following split-horizon function? >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 9.3 Split Horizon >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Consider a CE that is multi-homed to two or more PEs on = an >>>>>>>>>> Ethernet >>>>>>>>>>>>> segment ES1 operating in All-Active mode. If the CE = sends >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> broadcast, unknown unicast, or multicast (BUM) packet = to >>>>>>>>>>>>> one of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> non-DF (Designated Forwarder) PEs, say PE1, then PE1 = will >>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>>>>>>> that packet to all or subset of the other PEs in that = EVPN >>>>>>>>>> instance >>>>>>>>>>>>> including the DF PE for that Ethernet segment. In this >>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>> the DF >>>>>>>>>>>> PE >>>>>>>>>>>>> that the CE is multi-homed to MUST drop the packet and = not >>>>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>>>>>>> back to the CE. This filtering is referred to as "split >>>>>>>> horizon" >>>>>>>>>>>>> filtering in this document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sajassi, et al. Expires January 15, 2014 >>>>>>>> [Page >>>>>>>>>>>> 17] >>>>>>>>>>>>> INTERNET DRAFT BGP MPLS Based Ethernet VPN >>>>>> July >>>>>>>>>> 15, >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013 >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to achieve this split horizon function, every = BUM >>>>>>>> packet >>>>>>>>>>>>> originating from a non-DF PE is encapsulated with an = MPLS >>>>>>>>>>>>> label >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> identifies the Ethernet segment of origin (i.e. the >>>>>>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> which the frame entered the EVPN network). This label = is >>>>>>>>>> referred to >>>>>>>>>>>>> as the ESI label, and MUST be distributed by all PEs = when >>>>>>>>>> operating >>>>>>>>>>>>> in All-Active multi-homing mode using the "Ethernet A-D >>>>>>>>>>>>> route per >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> when you use virtual chassis all works naturally and = split >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> horizon is >>>>>>>>>>>> handled by the VC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fundamental difference between the proposals is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you have on egress a mapping in the label that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determines the forwarding behaviour to be applied, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than having to check src/dst IP matches + LPM >>>>>> lookups. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you still talking about L3 overlay service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intra-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> I am talking about this draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are talking about the Virtual Subnet draft, then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your above argument is incorrect. The egress PE would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform IP lookup in the corresponding VRF table. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> I am talking about the fact when proper TTL handling = has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied, you need to determine whether or not to = decrement >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the TTL and as such you end up doing additional lookups = to >>>>>>>> determine >>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As such you will impact performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you seen performance degradation on your routers once = an >>>>>>>>>>>>> ACL entry or uRPF check is enabled on interfaces? >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> urpf/ACL are handled naturally, but you create a new >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> pipeline and look >>>>>>>>>>>> at the operations you have to do to check the >>>>>>>>>>>> intra/inter-subnet forwarding. >>>>>>>>>>>> This is whats avoids to use merchant silicon and what = impact >>>>>>>>>>>> performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/11/13 02:31, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine. In my draft, both intra-subnet and = inter-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IP traffic are forwarded at layer3 while in the = draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mentioned below only inter-subnet traffic would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be forwarded at layer3. They are totally different >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaches and therefore it's meaningless to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which one is easier >>>>>>>>>> or not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8=D5 = 19:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8= =B4: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets debate the technical solutions iso blogs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 08:52, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest you read the following blog post by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yakov >>>>>>>>>>> (http://opencontrail.org/why-contrail-is-using-bgpmpls/). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8=D5= 15:27 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New = Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are easier ways to do this which don=A1=AFt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> required data-plane changes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-l2vpn-e >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-f >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g-02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 07:40, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8= =D5 14:29 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version = Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not about TTL 1, no TTL decrement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should happen for intra-subnet forwarding at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all On top you need to modify the data-plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to achieve this, since it now needs to find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out if it is intra or inter subnet where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE(s) don=A1=AFt have to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, it needs some change to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation of PE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> routers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's why we need a draft to specify the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 07:22, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wim, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It said clearly "if the source and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination addresses of a packet whose TTL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is set to 1 belong to the same extended >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subnet, both ingress and egress PE routers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MUST NOT decrement the TTL of >>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>> packet." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you doubt that the PE routers could know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the source and destination address >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belong to the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extended subnet? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8= =D5 14:08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: New Version Notification = for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the TTL issue I believe this is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can say don=A1=AFt decrement but when and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE(s) do or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don=A1=AFt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 03:22, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Major changes since the -01 version >>>>>> include: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) add a section about TTL consideration; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove the section of PE Router FIB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reduction; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) remove the section of PE Router RIB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reduction; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any further comments are welcome. BTW, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the removed sections as mentioned above >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be described in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> docs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: = internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C22= 5=C8=D5 10:10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Brendan Fee; Susan = Hares; Fan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yongbing; Xuxiaohu; Xuxiaohu; Christian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacquenet; Truman Boyes; Yongbing Fan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A new version of I-D, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been successfully submitted by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu Xu and posted to the IETF >>>>>> repository. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Filename:=09 >>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revision: 02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Title: Virtual Subnet: A = L3VPN-based >>>>>>>> Subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Solution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Creation date: 2013-11-25 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Number of pages: 13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> u-l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.t >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Status: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -l3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -vi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rtu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> al- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sub >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Htmlized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Diff: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> u-l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This document describes a Layer3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Virtual Private Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (L3VPN)- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based subnet extension solution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referred to as Virtual Subnet, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be used as a kind of Layer3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network virtualization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overlay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approach for data center >>>>>> interconnect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of minutes from the time of submission >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available at >>>>>>>>>> tools.ietf.org. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>=20 >>=20 >> = __________________________________________________________________________= >> _______________________________________________ >>=20 >> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous = avez >> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les = messages >> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, = deforme >> ou falsifie. Merci. >>=20 >> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or = privileged >> information that may be protected by law; >> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender = and >> delete this message and its attachments. >> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >> been modified, changed or falsified. >> Thank you. >>=20 >=20 From wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Dec 3 01:10:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D061AE0DA for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 01:10:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, 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FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:10:15 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Pedro Roque Marques Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO8AVqurMYaR/+p0C9k9JencaW5JpCLuCA Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:10:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.35 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:11:10 -0800 Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:10:29 -0000 UGVkcm8sIEkgYW0gbm90IHNheWluZyBwcm94eSBBUlAgaXMgbm90IHZhbGlkLCBidXQgd2hhdCBJ IGFtIHRlbGxpbmcgdGhhdA0KYSBsb3Qgb2YgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIGJyZWFrIGluIHN1Y2ggZW52 aXJvbm1lbnQuIFRoZSBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgdGhhdA0KcmVseSBvbiB0aGlzIGFyZSByZWFsaXR5 IGFuZCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJyZWFrIHRoZW0uDQoNCk9uIDAzLzEyLzEzIDA5OjU1LCAiUGVk cm8gUm9xdWUgTWFycXVlcyIgPHBlZHJvLnIubWFycXVlc0BnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+ V2ltLA0KPg0KPk9uIERlYyAyLCAyMDEzLCBhdCA2OjE4IEFNLCBIZW5kZXJpY2t4LCBXaW0gKFdp bSkNCj48d2ltLmhlbmRlcmlja3hAYWxjYXRlbC1sdWNlbnQuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4NCj4+IFRo b21hcywgdGhlcmUgaXMgbW9yZSBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgdGhhdCBicmVhayB3aGVuIHRoaXMgc29s dXRpb24gaXMNCj4+IGRlcGxveWVkLiBIQSBzeXN0ZW1zIGUuZy4gTXkgdmlldyBpcyB0aGF0IHRo 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l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6737B1AE0EB for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 01:54:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNdJnKdKllsQ for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 01:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x236.google.com (mail-ie0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490701AE0E2 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 01:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f182.google.com with SMTP id as1so23358874iec.27 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:54:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=3QeBqzUi+TOMJbv1z15bqnCdKRJdYv+Ww5lNh9D23Ts=; b=sD0t2f+TRT0S77NyvW4GoNNOaey2FB5zdhLe/YIbEdryBPFDTvDSDT/VYF+k15b5Iz LsGN0x0BVvMAwIm+kHZc/8QEQaAueNaayXw/rlAT18JUGPI5/CKABBpTBOpMRDswymi0 iTd1irLMxo7pXKNcqdfDNe6DS6XPU1AYBxHoDhfBPW3VQDFcyEVqDRO1WA0TqumtaIyH bXDGW6MwYHiyhhl/oSi7xMRvbVSuQgLJRCkoLa0iDcJbwJ3x6s7qnagkXlr5s0f1BcEo uGur1wWk74d/8w6MMiQosEeKn+tsw/Q6uVbTNO9cP0PGSBm25Rr6aJ/1vcT8HcgCu9f9 CudQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.61.205 with SMTP id s13mr1644869igr.29.1386064450745; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:54:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.64.61.129 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 01:54:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:54:10 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ayPUmZwrw7jzBSIjRUY8zSn86lY Message-ID: Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Robert Raszuk To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd7679a38fffa04ec9e47a3 Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:54:14 -0000 --047d7bd7679a38fffa04ec9e47a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Wim, I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications may break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other applications may happily work on virtual subnet too. So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about some specific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to document those in a draft. For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operators and for the second it may give hints to application developers to fix their code :) Best, R. --047d7bd7679a38fffa04ec9e47a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Wi= m,

I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications may br= eak. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other applica= tions may happily work on virtual subnet too.=A0

So mayb= e rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about some specific a= pplications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to document tho= se in a draft.

For one= it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operators and for th= e second it may give hints to application developers to fix their code :)

Best,
R.
<= br>
--047d7bd7679a38fffa04ec9e47a3-- From wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Dec 3 04:03:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C214E1AE118 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zGpOkLZSzgTd for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3796C1AE0FC for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id rB3C3bRT002707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 06:03:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id rB3C3avC011939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:03:36 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.62]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:03:36 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO8AVqurMYaR/+p0C9k9JencaW5JpCLuCA///7iwCAADTkAA== Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 12:03:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEC385FB9761Bwimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:03:47 -0000 --_000_CEC385FB9761Bwimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such environment = and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I also don=92t bel= ieve the people who have to fix the applications will even read this work. From: Robert Raszuk > Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: Pedro Roque Marques >, Thomas Morin >, "l3vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Hi Wim, I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications may bre= ak. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other applicat= ions may happily work on virtual subnet too. So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about some spe= cific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to document = those in a draft. For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operators and= for the second it may give hints to application developers to fix their co= de :) Best, R. --_000_CEC385FB9761Bwimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <3181A509000F0641B7FC8A5FE6B96518@exchange.lucent.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such environ= ment and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I also don=92= t believe the people who have to fix the applications will even read this w= ork.

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54=
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<= /a>>
Cc: Pedro Roque Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>, Th= omas Morin <thomas.morin@oran= ge.com>, "l3vpn@ietf.org&= quot; <l3vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: on limitations of draf= t-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet

Hi Wim,

I think you are right that perhaps some Ethern= et based applications may break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wa= st majority of other applications may happily work on virtual subnet too.&n= bsp;

So maybe rather then stopping adoption those w= ho are worried about some specific applications not working in any of today= 's L2 emulations to document those in a draft.

For one it could be nice deployment guideline = document to the operators and for the second it may give hints to applicati= on developers to fix their code :)

Best,
R.

 --_000_CEC385FB9761Bwimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_-- From rraszuk@gmail.com Tue Dec 3 04:20:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF1E1AE12B for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bpgdLXtpdgjt for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x230.google.com (mail-ie0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C59D1AE12A for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id at1so23852989iec.35 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:20:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=37+UqE1Kg2OqodoSS4+hq83VoRg4M/NAgZQDnZM82lY=; b=bJ8hSkSnIPyPZj9pSpEESO2I7zXCD73ixvQGH67OiN4QWMcFdES2LrHzgmIFQzTeew ikkShrnB/DCetKuWLz9JVTgdg+afHhu+485Xv/U/kFgnmUzb5dJAK1vVlmLgIPi/Erwl SMW6Bxm2Mki5Rp+l58jbU7NzN/cnp9RlSAFSEgsjw2J7ri5rccHOTymBfqq/maxCZaBn GGI3sbPZlOMebNrd+pKs6rKVMzq4/t3x1XwtqG8iZA566gJITC/oO8gl+zSvcSlkyxxO dOyMAZuIWSGpskAzaUe/NyPhZ7l76M3TGeguZyaLebBJUxvn54T6S+bETcy+HSAY/WKf DtWg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.141.4 with SMTP id jc4mr55137icc.87.1386073200631; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:20:00 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.64.61.129 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:20:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:20:00 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: K-57xzNSeLHyfloAmk_Qxr3nkgs Message-ID: Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Robert Raszuk To: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c25056c1a42004eca0507d Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:20:04 -0000 --001a11c25056c1a42004eca0507d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wim, I am not questioning that things can break. I am just asking that it would be great to document those stating specific reasons or given's app design assumptions. Cheers, R. On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) < wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such > environment and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I al= so > don=92t believe the people who have to fix the applications will even rea= d > this work. > > From: Robert Raszuk > Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54 > To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: Pedro Roque Marques , Thomas Morin < > thomas.morin@orange.com>, "l3vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet > > Hi Wim, > > I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications may > break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other > applications may happily work on virtual subnet too. > > So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about some > specific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to > document those in a draft. > > For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operators > and for the second it may give hints to application developers to fix the= ir > code :) > > Best, > R. > > --001a11c25056c1a42004eca0507d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Wim,

I am not questioning that things can break. I am just asking that it would = be great to document those stating specific reasons or given's app desi= gn assumptions.

Cheers,
R.


On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Henderic= kx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such environ= ment and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I also don=92= t believe the people who have to fix the applications will even read this w= ork.

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54=
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@a= lcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: Pedro Roque Marques <pedro.r.marques@gma= il.com>, Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>, "l3vpn@ietf.org" <l3vpn@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: on limitations of draf= t-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet

Hi Wim,

I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications ma= y break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other app= lications may happily work on virtual subnet too.=A0

So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about som= e specific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to = document those in a draft.

For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operator= s and for the second it may give hints to application developers to fix the= ir code :)

Best,
R.

--001a11c25056c1a42004eca0507d-- From wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Dec 3 05:13:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91F01AE126 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 05:13:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5zmRqjH5hHlc for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 05:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E971AE111 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 05:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id rB3DDdMs024149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:13:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id rB3DDXB3006301 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 14:13:39 +0100 Received: from FR711WXCHMBA07.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.3.62]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 14:13:17 +0100 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" To: Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO8AVqurMYaR/+p0C9k9JencaW5JpCLuCA///7iwCAADTkAP//89sAgAAfooA= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:13:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CEC3967497657wimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:13:48 -0000 --_000_CEC3967497657wimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I agree that it is useful to document how to design an application= in an IP only cloud environment. However this is a different document than= the draft we are discussing here. From: Robert Raszuk > Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 13:20 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: Thomas Morin >,= "l3vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Hi Wim, I am not questioning that things can break. I am just asking that it would = be great to document those stating specific reasons or given's app design a= ssumptions. Cheers, R. On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) > wrote: Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such environment = and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I also don=92t bel= ieve the people who have to fix the applications will even read this work. From: Robert Raszuk > Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54 To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: Pedro Roque Marques >, Thomas Morin >, "l3vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Hi Wim, I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications may bre= ak. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other applicat= ions may happily work on virtual subnet too. So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about some spe= cific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to document = those in a draft. For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operators and= for the second it may give hints to application developers to fix their co= de :) Best, R. --_000_CEC3967497657wimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert, I agree that it is useful  to document how to design an a= pplication in an IP only cloud environment. However this is a different doc= ument than the draft we are discussing here.

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 13:20=
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com<= /a>>
Cc: Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>, "l3vpn@ietf.org" <l3vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: on limitations of draf= t-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet

Hi Wim,

I am not questioning that things can break. I am just asking that it would = be great to document those stating specific reasons or given's app design a= ssumptions.

Cheers,
R.


On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Henderickx, Wim = (Wim) <= wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such environ= ment and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I also don=92= t believe the people who have to fix the applications will even read this w= ork.

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54=
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@a= lcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: Pedro Roque Marques <pedro.r.marques@gma= il.com>, Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>, "l3vpn@ietf.org" <l3vpn@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: on limitations of draf= t-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet

Hi Wim,

I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications ma= y break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of other app= lications may happily work on virtual subnet too. 

So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about som= e specific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations to docu= ment those in a draft.

For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the operator= s and for the second it may give hints to application developers to fix the= ir code :)

Best,
R.


 --_000_CEC3967497657wimhenderickxalcatellucentcom_-- From touch@isi.edu Tue Dec 3 07:55:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BC01AE05B for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:55:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ep6TtZuK8l5i for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A53D1A1F4C for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.93] (pool-71-105-87-112.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.87.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id rB3FsfqG002742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:54:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:54:48 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pedro Roque Marques , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:55:10 -0000 On 12/3/2013 12:55 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: > Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? > I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant with Host and Router requirement RFCs. For IPv4, RFC1812 says that all 1's "limited broadcast" (255.255.255.255) MUST NOT be forwarded. RFC2644 updates that RFC to say that even subnet-directed broadcasts MUST NOT be forwarded (as configured by default). So by default, a router would never forward the broadcast for which the proxy ARP would be an appropriate response. Which would mean that the proxy would work only if already populated at the router; there would be no means to forward the initial request if the cache were empty. So proxy ARP would work if manually configured, but would be unreliable if automatically populated if used on a router that spans two groups of hosts on the same subnet. Joe From touch@isi.edu Tue Dec 3 07:57:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDF31AE168 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:57:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.412 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.412 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 48JFPgpyq5rB for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF3E1AE167 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.93] (pool-71-105-87-112.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.105.87.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id rB3Fu8Be003232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:56:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <529DFF1F.6040908@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:56:15 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pedro Roque Marques , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:57:03 -0000 PS - it seems obvious to me that placing a router (an L3 IP forwarding device) between two sets of hosts considered on the same "subnet" is broken. What you want there is an L2 switch, not an L3 device. Joe On 12/3/2013 12:55 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: > Wim, > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 6:18 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) wrote: > >> Thomas, there is more applications that break when this solution is >> deployed. HA systems e.g. My view is that the draft break a fundamental IP >> behaviour it should not be adopted at all. > > Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? > I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant with Host and Router requirement RFCs. > > It is very hard for an application to use anything other than an IP service. First because it is difficult to code, second because some of the most popular platforms to deploy applications (e.g. AWS) do not support anything other than an IP service. > > There may be environments where people feel the need to emulate a specific L2 technology; but applications that depend on L2 are always going to be in world of hurt since there are actually different L2 technologies in use. For instance a switched ethernet is different than a E-VPN based ethernet that does control plane based learning (i.e. unknown unicast is not forwarded); and the behavior is different from a hub based ethernet where all traffic is broadcasted. > > Pedro. > >> >> On 02/12/13 12:39, "thomas.morin@orange.com" >> wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I believe we may benefit from taking a step back. Let's not only look at >>> TTL and traceroute (see my comment below on traceroute itself), and >>> let's also try to distinguish between discussions that are useful to >>> have here and discussions that may be more useful elsewhere. >>> >>> First of all, it is obvious that this draft does not claim, nor >>> achieves, an exact emulation of L2 connectivity. Even though TTL >>> decrementing could be avoided (perhaps with a cost penalty on some >>> platforms), other things will also happen differently from how things >>> happen on a LAN: source MAC addresses will not be preserved, the >>> possibility of addressing any IP packet to any host on the (emulated >>> LAN) acting as a gateway, the possibility of doing broadcast and >>> link-local multicast (that one would possibly be fixable), any dot-1p >>> marking will be lost, and of course the possibility of using non-IP >>> protocols. This may break some applications. But, to me this does not >>> rule out such a solution, as soon as the limitations are understood and >>> the solution is used in context where they do not raise issues. >>> >>> Second, let's see what we need to discuss here in l3vpn. Wim, you are >>> saying "this is not in-line with NVO3 requirements.". To me, it seems >>> that this solution deserves to be described, if only as a input for >>> documenting in detail what will happen differently than from a LAN and >>> specific cases of applications that will behave differently, or break, >>> if this is used. >>> >>> -Thomas >>> >>> [ On traceroute, I would actually argue -- keeping in mind that >>> traceroute is a troubleshooting tool -- that in the context of this >>> approach, the output of traceroute will actually provide more >>> information useful for troubleshooting, than what we would have with a >>> bit-for-bit emulation of L2. Than can be seen as a benefit as well. If >>> we make a //, although a l3vpn is supposed to behave, from the VPN >>> customer point of view, like one router -- traceroute can actually >>> provide some information on what happens between the PEs -- AFAIK this >>> has never been considered like "breaking traceroute". ] >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013-11-29, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>> You violate basic forwarding mechanisms: don¡¯t decrement TTL for >>>>> intra-subnet traffic and this is not in-line with NVO3 requirements. >>>>> Discussion closed for me. >>>>> >>>>> On 29/11/13 10:03, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ29ÈÕ 15:55 >>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: >>>>>>> New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 29/11/13 07:56, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ29ÈÕ 12:59 >>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New >>>>>>> Version Notification >>>>>>>>> for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I believe we have a disagreement here. The trace route is not >>>>>>>>> providing the output expected. If you define a solution you need >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> ensure the applications behave in the way IP was designed and as >>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>> your solution is not compliant to this. >>>>>>>> I have to emphasize that it's absolutely the expected output in the >>>>>>>> case where the Proxy ARP [RFC1027] is deployed. Unless you are >>>>>>>> strongly >>>>>>>> against the Proxy ARP technology itself which was actually designed >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> most the same time when IP was initially designed... >>>>>>> WH> I am not against this, but there are other ways of implementing >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> WH> as >>>>>>> I mentioned it before and these solution do not have the issues >>>>>>> which I >>>>>>> outlined. >>>>>> But these solutions may have issues that you haven't outlined:) >>>>>> Different >>>>>> approaches have their different target scenarios. That's the reason >>>>>> why >>>>>> both Layer2 and Layer3 overlays are considered by the NVo3 WG. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you like it or not, it is reality. >>>>>>>> No matter you like it or now, the approach of using the host routing >>>>>>>> and the Proxy ARP to emulate an extended subnet has been >>>>>>>> increasingly >>>>>>>> implemented by more and more vendors in their data center network >>>>>>>> products. It's the reality. >>>>>>> WH> this doesn¡¯t mean that IETF need to adopt it, since it breaks a >>>>>>> WH> number >>>>>>> of things >>>>>> You'd better explicit list those things which would be broken. It >>>>>> would >>>>>> be very helpful for the NVo3 WG. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 29/11/13 02:35, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ28ÈÕ 18:46 >>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New >>>>>>>>> Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please look at the VRF table instance in that example. The packet >>>>>>>>>>> destined for 2.2.2.x is forwarded according to the default route >>>>>>>>>>> advertised by PE-3. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Since each PE acts as a default GW, there is no impact to the >>>>>>>>>>> output of the trace route for an IP address which is not within >>>>>>>>>>> the same subnet as the trace-route originator (IMO, this is the >>>>>>>>>>> major usage of trace route). >>>>>>>>>>> If you just want to try a trace route for an IP address which is >>>>>>>>>>> within the same subnet of the trace-route originator, there are >>>>>>>>>>> just two more hops (i.e., ingress PE and egress PE) in the >>>>>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>>>>> (see below), does it matter in practice? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> tracert 1.1.1.5 >>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 1.1.1.5(1.1.1.5), max hops: 30 ,packet length: >>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>> 2 1.1.1.1 120 ms 80 ms 110 ms >>>>>>>>>>> 3 1.1.1.5 140 ms 100 ms 90 ms >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> WH> and this is what I meant with broken since the trace route is >>>>>>>>>>> expecting 1 hop iso 3. >>>>>>>>>> It's no more a surprise once you have understood that the >>>>>>>>>> intra-subnet traffic is forwarded at L3. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I have said before, there is no impact on the normal trace >>>>>>>>>> route >>>>>>>>>> function. By the way, are you usually using the trace route >>>>>>>>>> command >>>>>>>>>> rather than the PING command on one host to check the connectivity >>>>>>>>>> to another host when these two hosts are actually within the same >>>>>>> subnet? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 09:45, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ28ÈÕ 15:44 >>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New Version >>>>>>>>>>> Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 08:33, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ28ÈÕ 14:13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New Version >>>>>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 04:02, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ28ÈÕ 1:53 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New Version >>>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/11/13 09:12, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ27ÈÕ 14:14 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New Version >>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are changing the forwarding plane of a L3 service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and as such this is not implementable in merchant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> silicon so >>>>>>>>> far. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a flexible network processor to do this and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am not sure about the performance implications. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Future merchant silicon could be adapted to support such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TTL handling requirement as long as Layer3 forwarding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for intra-subnet traffic is worthwhile in practice. In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addition, even with the existing L3 forwarding chips >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which don't support that TTL handling requirement, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Layer3 overlay could still be applicable to most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications except a few ones where TTL is set to 1. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> even with what you say you break basic applications >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> like trace route, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it will not break the trace-route application. It has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been successfully verified in our implementation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> can you show an output. W/o the TTL handling your hops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the example illustrated at Figure 4 of the draft, the trace >>>>>>>>>>>>>> route output on Host A is as follows (note that 2.2.2.1 is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vrf interface address of PE-3): >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Host_1]tracert 2.2.2.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 2.2.2.1(2.2.2.1), max hops: 30 ,packet length: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 60 ms 50 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 2.2.2.1 90 ms 60 ms 80 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> figure 4 is addressing 1.1.1.x not 2.2.2.x and the output >>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> should be >>>>>>>>>>>>> from a intra-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>> Please look at the VRF table instance in that example. The >>>>>>>>>>>> packet >>>>>>>>>>>> destined for 2.2.2.x is forwarded according to the default route >>>>>>>>>>>> advertised by PE-3. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Since each PE acts as a default GW, there is no impact to the >>>>>>>>>>>> output of the trace route for an IP address which is not within >>>>>>>>>>>> the same subnet as the trace-route originator (IMO, this is the >>>>>>>>>>>> major usage of trace >>>>>>>>>>> route). >>>>>>>>>>>> If you just want to try a trace route for an IP address which is >>>>>>>>>>>> within the same subnet of the trace-route originator, there are >>>>>>>>>>>> just two more hops (i.e., ingress PE and egress PE) in the >>>>>>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>>>>>> (see below), does it matter in practice? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tracert 1.1.1.5 >>>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 1.1.1.5(1.1.1.5), max hops: 30 ,packet length: >>>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> 2 1.1.1.1 120 ms 80 ms 110 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> 3 1.1.1.5 140 ms 100 ms 90 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. SO I don¡¯t want to adopt it at all with such impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>>>>>> DP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why I am against this draft is because it has a big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact on the data-plane. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does EVPN have no impact on the data-plane? Are you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against that draft as well due to its impact on the >>>>>>> data plane? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> not in its basic form >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the major selling-point of that technology (i.e., >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> active-active >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-homing) is lost in its basic form accordingly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> no its not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If no change to the existing data plane, how to realize the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> following split-horizon function? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9.3 Split Horizon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consider a CE that is multi-homed to two or more PEs on an >>>>>>>>>>> Ethernet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> segment ES1 operating in All-Active mode. If the CE sends >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> broadcast, unknown unicast, or multicast (BUM) packet to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-DF (Designated Forwarder) PEs, say PE1, then PE1 will >>>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that packet to all or subset of the other PEs in that EVPN >>>>>>>>>>> instance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the DF PE for that Ethernet segment. In this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the DF >>>>>>>>>>>>> PE >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the CE is multi-homed to MUST drop the packet and not >>>>>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to the CE. This filtering is referred to as "split >>>>>>>>> horizon" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filtering in this document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sajassi, et al. Expires January 15, 2014 >>>>>>>>> [Page >>>>>>>>>>>>> 17] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> INTERNET DRAFT BGP MPLS Based Ethernet VPN >>>>>>> July >>>>>>>>>>> 15, >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to achieve this split horizon function, every BUM >>>>>>>>> packet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> originating from a non-DF PE is encapsulated with an MPLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>> label >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identifies the Ethernet segment of origin (i.e. the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which the frame entered the EVPN network). This label is >>>>>>>>>>> referred to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the ESI label, and MUST be distributed by all PEs when >>>>>>>>>>> operating >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in All-Active multi-homing mode using the "Ethernet A-D >>>>>>>>>>>>>> route per >>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> when you use virtual chassis all works naturally and split >>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> horizon is >>>>>>>>>>>>> handled by the VC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fundamental difference between the proposals is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you have on egress a mapping in the label that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determines the forwarding behaviour to be applied, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than having to check src/dst IP matches + LPM >>>>>>> lookups. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you still talking about L3 overlay service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intra-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> I am talking about this draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are talking about the Virtual Subnet draft, then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your above argument is incorrect. The egress PE would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform IP lookup in the corresponding VRF table. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> I am talking about the fact when proper TTL handling has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied, you need to determine whether or not to decrement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the TTL and as such you end up doing additional lookups to >>>>>>>>> determine >>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As such you will impact performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you seen performance degradation on your routers once an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ACL entry or uRPF check is enabled on interfaces? >>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> urpf/ACL are handled naturally, but you create a new >>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> pipeline and look >>>>>>>>>>>>> at the operations you have to do to check the >>>>>>>>>>>>> intra/inter-subnet forwarding. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is whats avoids to use merchant silicon and what impact >>>>>>>>>>>>> performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/11/13 02:31, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine. In my draft, both intra-subnet and inter-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IP traffic are forwarded at layer3 while in the draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mentioned below only inter-subnet traffic would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be forwarded at layer3. They are totally different >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaches and therefore it's meaningless to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which one is easier >>>>>>>>>>> or not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ25ÈÕ 19:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets debate the technical solutions iso blogs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 08:52, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest you read the following blog post by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yakov >>>>>>>>>>>> (http://opencontrail.org/why-contrail-is-using-bgpmpls/). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ25ÈÕ 15:27 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: ´ð¸´: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are easier ways to do this which don¡¯t >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> required data-plane changes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-l2vpn-e >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-f >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g-02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 07:40, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ25ÈÕ 14:29 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: ´ð¸´: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not about TTL 1, no TTL decrement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should happen for intra-subnet forwarding at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all On top you need to modify the data-plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to achieve this, since it now needs to find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out if it is intra or inter subnet where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE(s) don¡¯t have to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, it needs some change to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation of PE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> routers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's why we need a draft to specify the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 07:22, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wim, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It said clearly "if the source and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination addresses of a packet whose TTL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is set to 1 belong to the same extended >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subnet, both ingress and egress PE routers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MUST NOT decrement the TTL of >>>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>>> packet." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you doubt that the PE routers could know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the source and destination address >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belong to the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extended subnet? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ25ÈÕ 14:08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³­ËÍ: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the TTL issue I believe this is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can say don¡¯t decrement but when and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE(s) do or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don¡¯t. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 03:22, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Major changes since the -01 version >>>>>>> include: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) add a section about TTL consideration; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove the section of PE Router FIB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reduction; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) remove the section of PE Router RIB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reduction; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any further comments are welcome. BTW, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the removed sections as mentioned above >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be described in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> docs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----ÓʼþÔ­¼þ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢¼þÈË: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2013Äê11ÔÂ25ÈÕ 10:10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: Brendan Fee; Susan Hares; Fan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yongbing; Xuxiaohu; Xuxiaohu; Christian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacquenet; Truman Boyes; Yongbing Fan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ö÷Ìâ: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A new version of I-D, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been successfully submitted by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu Xu and posted to the IETF >>>>>>> repository. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Filename: >>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revision: 02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Title: Virtual Subnet: A L3VPN-based >>>>>>>>> Subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Solution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Creation date: 2013-11-25 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Number of pages: 13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> u-l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.t >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Status: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -l3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -vi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rtu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> al- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sub >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Htmlized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Diff: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> u-l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This document describes a Layer3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Virtual Private Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (L3VPN)- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based subnet extension solution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referred to as Virtual Subnet, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be used as a kind of Layer3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network virtualization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overlay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approach for data center >>>>>>> interconnect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of minutes from the time of submission >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available at >>>>>>>>>>> tools.ietf.org. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez >>> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages >>> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme >>> ou falsifie. Merci. >>> >>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >>> information that may be protected by law; >>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and >>> delete this message and its attachments. >>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >>> been modified, changed or falsified. >>> Thank you. >>> >> > From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Tue Dec 3 10:47:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9028A1AE180 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:47:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eFRInrxYC2M9 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x234.google.com (mail-pd0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7301AE0C5 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f180.google.com with SMTP id q10so20653557pdj.11 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:47:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=G8qXDoGWZIyKl5x8yagH6wzhCA1LSnOqDhHVKgoI7g4=; b=rXYja6DMohM5PDt3Wwv2kuT7A3c9IWqlpFdutNdWAdlGtRWuEBNQpXmD1v6scc0xrX COIgTcqyKuUa5JhsDgGhJaqztvFkzBo3TlTMTRIx6pzBMJKiPf/U71mNos6B9Rc4xGyb RB7JmYzNGrz01C58/QQdDxZush3fqpDmQ/m330WRrJjMhhHfQVcldy22iKz3cbVAz5eG hWBxG/SmkUyNjAgrZoQDJjOylCYvJJE5EsfwuggQkGhTpplDDfgC3zsTlKlWDpckQN32 bJAn4kaxzb75TYEVvxmcEpxovdxvKLgrQYJBniD/K6f8YbIPuvc3MImqRbGmLpBTznFr uEkg== X-Received: by 10.66.216.193 with SMTP id os1mr77394437pac.29.1386096466430; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pedros-mbp.jnpr.net ([66.129.239.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vf7sm16450419pbc.5.2013.12.03.10.47.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:47:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:47:40 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:47:50 -0000 Joe, On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:54 AM, Joe Touch wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 12/3/2013 12:55 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: >> Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL = decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? >> I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant with = Host and Router requirement RFCs. >=20 > For IPv4, RFC1812 says that all 1's "limited broadcast" > (255.255.255.255) MUST NOT be forwarded. RFC2644 updates that RFC to = say > that even subnet-directed broadcasts MUST NOT be forwarded (as > configured by default). >=20 > So by default, a router would never forward the broadcast for which = the > proxy ARP would be an appropriate response. yes. > Which would mean that the > proxy would work only if already populated at the router; I don't follow. Lets assume i've a device that is an IP compliant router = which has interface A and interface B. The quote above means that it should not forward a packet address to = 255.255.255.255 between link A and link B (or vice-versa). This has = nothing no relationship to whether this device is capable of generating = ARP requests or proxy ARP replies. > there would be > no means to forward the initial request if the cache were empty. So > proxy ARP would work if manually configured, but would be unreliable = if > automatically populated if used on a router that spans two groups of > hosts on the same subnet. Proxy ARP is unrelated to subnet broadcasts. >=20 > Joe >=20 From touch@isi.edu Tue Dec 3 11:10:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BEF71AE19A for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:10:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSo0KQzWkihH for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BAC1AE17E for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id rB3J93jg023565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:09:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <529E2CAE.6070705@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:10:38 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pedro Roque Marques Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:10:50 -0000 On 12/3/2013 10:47 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: > Joe, > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:54 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/3/2013 12:55 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: >>> Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? >>> I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant with Host and Router requirement RFCs. >> >> For IPv4, RFC1812 says that all 1's "limited broadcast" >> (255.255.255.255) MUST NOT be forwarded. RFC2644 updates that RFC to say >> that even subnet-directed broadcasts MUST NOT be forwarded (as >> configured by default). >> >> So by default, a router would never forward the broadcast for which the >> proxy ARP would be an appropriate response. > > yes. > >> Which would mean that the >> proxy would work only if already populated at the router; > > I don't follow. Lets assume i've a device that is an IP compliant > router which has interface A and interface B. > The quote above means that it should not forward a packet address to > 255.255.255.255 between link A and link B (or vice-versa). This has > nothing no relationship to whether this device is capable of generating > ARP requests or proxy ARP replies. ARP requests would never be forwarded across such a device. This means that proxy ARP responses would either have to be manually configured or learned by the actions of some other party. There's no opportunity to have the proxy ARP be a short-cut for a relayed ARP - which limits the cases where proxy ARP can be used. >> there would be >> no means to forward the initial request if the cache were empty. So >> proxy ARP would work if manually configured, but would be unreliable if >> automatically populated if used on a router that spans two groups of >> hosts on the same subnet. > > Proxy ARP is unrelated to subnet broadcasts. See the example above; not always. Joe From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:31:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682341AE1A0 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:31:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QHsSkJ17najL for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22f.google.com (mail-pd0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BB21AE198 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f175.google.com with SMTP id w10so20564794pde.6 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:31:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dfGDe3EJDhz3Mben1vh7hJ4p9XCiPUHtcwPhdU8YFYs=; b=cI4N0tOHs7K2n+doXT9K3BoEPAZEMVopbWQ7e/G8V7b0eaC9nYGv6LA8lzdokIMWxe slOHej5zRQIZBFpLd20o0anhMDi9Ulj+tL95jvElDgaMqiCdhEMnWzPe6/Cdsad1KJZ6 Ah5Tx6bxMyI5y27fkdJ4IJjNjz9L+QZO8XTJXeNuBQpIlwLu6qleyysaf3CPVVe2Kc6q f6Wh6xGqXqOHokvRKZhJ5lb53Ql8oK5LM76R6axdR5L9GXt6z064M2M4FXSLnQR3UihQ P6ga/i7kwTqJP+gFdwurnKYpeMvZH4HrIPm1BG6fRjZeWHEjy44aZivEyJ2EmSXqhgqj VGIw== X-Received: by 10.67.14.67 with SMTP id fe3mr52488353pad.134.1386099062583; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pedros-mbp.jnpr.net ([66.129.239.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm149919424pas.10.2013.12.03.11.31.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:31:00 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: <529DFF1F.6040908@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:30:58 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFF1F.6040908@isi.edu> To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) Cc: "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:31:10 -0000 Joe, On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > PS - it seems obvious to me that placing a router (an L3 IP forwarding > device) between two sets of hosts considered on the same "subnet" is = broken. >=20 > What you want there is an L2 switch, not an L3 device. It depends on who is "you"... The vast majority of applications are not capable of accessing the L2 = header of a packet; if "you" have applications that care about the L2 = header and a specific L2 behavior then "you" must provide that model. That is one of the issues that come up repeatedly around this topic. = There are very different requirements between traditional/legacy = data-centers deployments and "scale out" deployments. The most = successful scale out deployments do not support L2 semantics. It is a = tradeoff: not having to support ethernet emulation simplifies networking = and it turns out there is a class of applications that don't care. That = shouldn't prevent people from adding "an L2 switch" when serving the = traditional market. There where applications in the past that relied on an ethernet bus = behavior and assumed that they could listen to unicast packets sent to = any MAC. When switches where introduced they had to change to use = unregistered MAC; on an L2 emulation that don't broadcast unknown = unicast packets they will again have to change. Even the concept of what = is an L2 service changes over time and applications that rely on side = effects may be impacted... they are very few however. And it is often an = accepted trade-off to not support these in new environments. So perhaps instead of using terms like "broken", we can discuss what = service model a given solution provides. And consider that given service = models have advantages and drawbacks. It is perfectly reasonable to ask the author of the draft that is being = discussed to clarify what is the service model: what is the TTL = treatment; the IP broadcast model, etc. You can then let the network = operator decide what are their specific requirements. Pedro. >=20 > Joe >=20 > On 12/3/2013 12:55 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: >> Wim, >>=20 >> On Dec 2, 2013, at 6:18 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) = wrote: >>=20 >>> Thomas, there is more applications that break when this solution is >>> deployed. HA systems e.g. My view is that the draft break a = fundamental IP >>> behaviour it should not be adopted at all. >>=20 >> Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL = decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? >> I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant with = Host and Router requirement RFCs. >>=20 >> It is very hard for an application to use anything other than an IP = service. First because it is difficult to code, second because some of = the most popular platforms to deploy applications (e.g. AWS) do not = support anything other than an IP service. >>=20 >> There may be environments where people feel the need to emulate a = specific L2 technology; but applications that depend on L2 are always = going to be in world of hurt since there are actually different L2 = technologies in use. For instance a switched ethernet is different than = a E-VPN based ethernet that does control plane based learning (i.e. = unknown unicast is not forwarded); and the behavior is different from a = hub based ethernet where all traffic is broadcasted. >>=20 >> Pedro. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 02/12/13 12:39, "thomas.morin@orange.com" = >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hi everyone, >>>>=20 >>>> I believe we may benefit from taking a step back. Let's not only = look at >>>> TTL and traceroute (see my comment below on traceroute itself), and >>>> let's also try to distinguish between discussions that are useful = to >>>> have here and discussions that may be more useful elsewhere. >>>>=20 >>>> First of all, it is obvious that this draft does not claim, nor >>>> achieves, an exact emulation of L2 connectivity. Even though TTL >>>> decrementing could be avoided (perhaps with a cost penalty on some >>>> platforms), other things will also happen differently from how = things >>>> happen on a LAN: source MAC addresses will not be preserved, the >>>> possibility of addressing any IP packet to any host on the = (emulated >>>> LAN) acting as a gateway, the possibility of doing broadcast and >>>> link-local multicast (that one would possibly be fixable), any = dot-1p >>>> marking will be lost, and of course the possibility of using non-IP >>>> protocols. This may break some applications. But, to me this does = not >>>> rule out such a solution, as soon as the limitations are understood = and >>>> the solution is used in context where they do not raise issues. >>>>=20 >>>> Second, let's see what we need to discuss here in l3vpn. Wim, you = are >>>> saying "this is not in-line with NVO3 requirements.". To me, it = seems >>>> that this solution deserves to be described, if only as a input for >>>> documenting in detail what will happen differently than from a LAN = and >>>> specific cases of applications that will behave differently, or = break, >>>> if this is used. >>>>=20 >>>> -Thomas >>>>=20 >>>> [ On traceroute, I would actually argue -- keeping in mind that >>>> traceroute is a troubleshooting tool -- that in the context of this >>>> approach, the output of traceroute will actually provide more >>>> information useful for troubleshooting, than what we would have = with a >>>> bit-for-bit emulation of L2. Than can be seen as a benefit as well. = If >>>> we make a //, although a l3vpn is supposed to behave, from the VPN >>>> customer point of view, like one router -- traceroute can actually >>>> provide some information on what happens between the PEs -- AFAIK = this >>>> has never been considered like "breaking traceroute". ] >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> 2013-11-29, Henderickx, Wim (Wim): >>>>>> You violate basic forwarding mechanisms: don=A1=AFt decrement TTL = for >>>>>> intra-subnet traffic and this is not in-line with NVO3 = requirements. >>>>>> Discussion closed for me. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 29/11/13 10:03, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) = [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C229=C8=D5 15:55 >>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: >>>>>>>> New Version Notification for = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 29/11/13 07:56, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C229=C8=D5 12:59 >>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: New >>>>>>>> Version Notification >>>>>>>>>> for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> I believe we have a disagreement here. The trace route is not >>>>>>>>>> providing the output expected. If you define a solution you = need >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> ensure the applications behave in the way IP was designed = and as >>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>> your solution is not compliant to this. >>>>>>>>> I have to emphasize that it's absolutely the expected output = in the >>>>>>>>> case where the Proxy ARP [RFC1027] is deployed. Unless you are >>>>>>>>> strongly >>>>>>>>> against the Proxy ARP technology itself which was actually = designed >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> most the same time when IP was initially designed... >>>>>>>> WH> I am not against this, but there are other ways of = implementing >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> WH> as >>>>>>>> I mentioned it before and these solution do not have the issues >>>>>>>> which I >>>>>>>> outlined. >>>>>>> But these solutions may have issues that you haven't outlined:) >>>>>>> Different >>>>>>> approaches have their different target scenarios. That's the = reason >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> both Layer2 and Layer3 overlays are considered by the NVo3 WG. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> If you like it or not, it is reality. >>>>>>>>> No matter you like it or now, the approach of using the host = routing >>>>>>>>> and the Proxy ARP to emulate an extended subnet has been >>>>>>>>> increasingly >>>>>>>>> implemented by more and more vendors in their data center = network >>>>>>>>> products. It's the reality. >>>>>>>> WH> this doesn=A1=AFt mean that IETF need to adopt it, since it = breaks a >>>>>>>> WH> number >>>>>>>> of things >>>>>>> You'd better explicit list those things which would be broken. = It >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be very helpful for the NVo3 WG. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On 29/11/13 02:35, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 18:46 >>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = New >>>>>>>>>> Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> Please look at the VRF table instance in that example. The = packet >>>>>>>>>>>> destined for 2.2.2.x is forwarded according to the default = route >>>>>>>>>>>> advertised by PE-3. >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> Since each PE acts as a default GW, there is no impact to = the >>>>>>>>>>>> output of the trace route for an IP address which is not = within >>>>>>>>>>>> the same subnet as the trace-route originator (IMO, this = is the >>>>>>>>>>>> major usage of trace route). >>>>>>>>>>>> If you just want to try a trace route for an IP address = which is >>>>>>>>>>>> within the same subnet of the trace-route originator, = there are >>>>>>>>>>>> just two more hops (i.e., ingress PE and egress PE) in the >>>>>>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>>>>>> (see below), does it matter in practice? >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> tracert 1.1.1.5 >>>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 1.1.1.5(1.1.1.5), max hops: 30 ,packet = length: >>>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> 2 1.1.1.1 120 ms 80 ms 110 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> 3 1.1.1.5 140 ms 100 ms 90 ms >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> WH> and this is what I meant with broken since the trace = route is >>>>>>>>>>>> expecting 1 hop iso 3. >>>>>>>>>>> It's no more a surprise once you have understood that the >>>>>>>>>>> intra-subnet traffic is forwarded at L3. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> As I have said before, there is no impact on the normal = trace >>>>>>>>>>> route >>>>>>>>>>> function. By the way, are you usually using the trace route >>>>>>>>>>> command >>>>>>>>>>> rather than the PING command on one host to check the = connectivity >>>>>>>>>>> to another host when these two hosts are actually within the = same >>>>>>>> subnet? >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 09:45, "Xuxiaohu" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 = 15:44 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4:= =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>>>>>> Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 08:33, "Xuxiaohu" = wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 = 14:13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4= : =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/13 04:02, "Xuxiaohu" = wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C228=C8=D5 = 1:53 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8= =B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/11/13 09:12, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C227=C8=D5 = 14:14 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8= =B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version >>>>>>>> Notification >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are changing the forwarding plane of a L3 = service >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and as such this is not implementable in merchant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> silicon so >>>>>>>>>> far. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a flexible network processor to do this = and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am not sure about the performance implications. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Future merchant silicon could be adapted to support = such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TTL handling requirement as long as Layer3 = forwarding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for intra-subnet traffic is worthwhile in practice. = In >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addition, even with the existing L3 forwarding chips >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which don't support that TTL handling requirement, = the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Layer3 overlay could still be applicable to most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications except a few ones where TTL is set to = 1. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> even with what you say you break basic = applications >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> like trace route, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it will not break the trace-route application. It = has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been successfully verified in our implementation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> can you show an output. W/o the TTL handling your = hops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the example illustrated at Figure 4 of the draft, the = trace >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route output on Host A is as follows (note that 2.2.2.1 = is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vrf interface address of PE-3): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Host_1]tracert 2.2.2.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 2.2.2.1(2.2.2.1), max hops: 30 ,packet = length: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 60 ms 50 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 2.2.2.1 90 ms 60 ms 80 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> figure 4 is addressing 1.1.1.x not 2.2.2.x and the = output >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a intra-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>> Please look at the VRF table instance in that example. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> packet >>>>>>>>>>>>> destined for 2.2.2.x is forwarded according to the default = route >>>>>>>>>>>>> advertised by PE-3. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since each PE acts as a default GW, there is no impact to = the >>>>>>>>>>>>> output of the trace route for an IP address which is not = within >>>>>>>>>>>>> the same subnet as the trace-route originator (IMO, this = is the >>>>>>>>>>>>> major usage of trace >>>>>>>>>>>> route). >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you just want to try a trace route for an IP address = which is >>>>>>>>>>>>> within the same subnet of the trace-route originator, = there are >>>>>>>>>>>>> just two more hops (i.e., ingress PE and egress PE) in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> output >>>>>>>>>>>>> (see below), does it matter in practice? >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> tracert 1.1.1.5 >>>>>>>>>>>>> traceroute to 1.1.1.5(1.1.1.5), max hops: 30 ,packet = length: >>>>>>>>>>>>> 40,press CTRL_C t o break >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 1.1.1.1 40 ms 40 ms 50 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 1.1.1.1 120 ms 80 ms 110 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 1.1.1.5 140 ms 100 ms 90 ms >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. SO I don=A1=AFt want to adopt it at all with = such impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why I am against this draft is because it has a = big >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact on the data-plane. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does EVPN have no impact on the data-plane? Are you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against that draft as well due to its impact on the >>>>>>>> data plane? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> not in its basic form >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the major selling-point of that technology = (i.e., >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> active-active >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-homing) is lost in its basic form accordingly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> no its not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If no change to the existing data plane, how to realize = the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following split-horizon function? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9.3 Split Horizon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consider a CE that is multi-homed to two or more PEs = on an >>>>>>>>>>>> Ethernet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> segment ES1 operating in All-Active mode. If the CE = sends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> broadcast, unknown unicast, or multicast (BUM) packet = to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-DF (Designated Forwarder) PEs, say PE1, then PE1 = will >>>>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that packet to all or subset of the other PEs in that = EVPN >>>>>>>>>>>> instance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including the DF PE for that Ethernet segment. In = this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the DF >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the CE is multi-homed to MUST drop the packet = and not >>>>>>>>>>>> forward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to the CE. This filtering is referred to as = "split >>>>>>>>>> horizon" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filtering in this document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sajassi, et al. Expires January 15, 2014 >>>>>>>>>> [Page >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INTERNET DRAFT BGP MPLS Based Ethernet VPN >>>>>>>> July >>>>>>>>>>>> 15, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to achieve this split horizon function, = every BUM >>>>>>>>>> packet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originating from a non-DF PE is encapsulated with an = MPLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> label >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identifies the Ethernet segment of origin (i.e. the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which the frame entered the EVPN network). This label = is >>>>>>>>>>>> referred to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the ESI label, and MUST be distributed by all PEs = when >>>>>>>>>>>> operating >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in All-Active multi-homing mode using the "Ethernet = A-D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route per >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> when you use virtual chassis all works naturally and = split >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> horizon is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> handled by the VC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fundamental difference between the proposals is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you have on egress a mapping in the label = that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determines the forwarding behaviour to be applied, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than having to check src/dst IP matches + = LPM >>>>>>>> lookups. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you still talking about L3 overlay service for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intra-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traffic? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> I am talking about this draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are talking about the Virtual Subnet draft, = then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your above argument is incorrect. The egress PE would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform IP lookup in the corresponding VRF table. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> I am talking about the fact when proper TTL = handling has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied, you need to determine whether or not to = decrement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the TTL and as such you end up doing additional = lookups to >>>>>>>>>> determine >>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As such you will impact performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you seen performance degradation on your routers = once an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ACL entry or uRPF check is enabled on interfaces? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> urpf/ACL are handled naturally, but you create a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WH> pipeline and look >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the operations you have to do to check the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intra/inter-subnet forwarding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is whats avoids to use merchant silicon and what = impact >>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/11/13 02:31, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fine. In my draft, both intra-subnet and = inter-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IP traffic are forwarded at layer3 while in the = draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mentioned below only inter-subnet traffic = would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be forwarded at layer3. They are totally different >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaches and therefore it's meaningless to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which one is easier >>>>>>>>>>>> or not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8=D5= 19:16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets debate the technical solutions iso blogs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 08:52, "Xuxiaohu" = >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest you read the following blog post by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yakov >>>>>>>>>>>>> (http://opencontrail.org/why-contrail-is-using-bgpmpls/). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8= =D5 15:27 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: = New Version Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are easier ways to do this which don=A1=AFt= >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> required data-plane changes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sajassi-l2vpn-e >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-f >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g-02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 07:40, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C225=C8= =D5 14:29 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: =B4=F0=B8=B4: New Version = Notification for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not about TTL 1, no TTL decrement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should happen for intra-subnet forwarding at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all On top you need to modify the data-plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to achieve this, since it now needs to find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out if it is intra or inter subnet where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE(s) don=A1=AFt have to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, it needs some change to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation of PE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> routers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's why we need a draft to specify the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 07:22, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wim, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It said clearly "if the source and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destination addresses of a packet whose TTL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is set to 1 belong to the same extended >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subnet, both ingress and egress PE routers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MUST NOT decrement the TTL of >>>>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>>>> packet." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you doubt that the PE routers could know >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the source and destination address >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belong to the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extended subnet? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Henderickx, Wim (Wim) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C22= 5=C8=D5 14:08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu; = l3vpn@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B3=AD=CB=CD: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: New Version Notification = for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the TTL issue I believe this is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We can say don=A1=AFt decrement but when = and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how will the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PE(s) do or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don=A1=AFt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/13 03:22, "Xuxiaohu" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Major changes since the -01 version >>>>>>>> include: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) add a section about TTL consideration; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove the section of PE Router FIB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reduction; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) remove the section of PE Router RIB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reduction; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any further comments are welcome. BTW, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the removed sections as mentioned above >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be described in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> docs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Xiaohu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: = internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2013=C4=EA11=D4=C2= 25=C8=D5 10:10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Brendan Fee; Susan = Hares; Fan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yongbing; Xuxiaohu; Xuxiaohu; Christian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacquenet; Truman Boyes; Yongbing Fan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =D6=F7=CC=E2: New Version Notification = for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A new version of I-D, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been successfully submitted by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xiaohu Xu and posted to the IETF >>>>>>>> repository. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Filename:=09 >>>>>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revision: 02 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Title: Virtual Subnet: A = L3VPN-based >>>>>>>>>> Subnet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extension >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Solution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Creation date: 2013-11-25 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Number of pages: 13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> u-l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.t >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Status: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -l3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vpn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -vi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rtu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> al- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sub >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Htmlized: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Diff: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> u-l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3vp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n-v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -su >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t-0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This document describes a Layer3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Virtual Private Network >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (L3VPN)- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based subnet extension solution >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> referred to as Virtual Subnet, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be used as a kind of Layer3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> network virtualization >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overlay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approach for data center >>>>>>>> interconnect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of minutes from the time of submission >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available at >>>>>>>>>>>> tools.ietf.org. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> = __________________________________________________________________________= >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>=20 >>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous = avez >>>> recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les = messages >>>> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, = deforme >>>> ou falsifie. Merci. >>>>=20 >>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or = privileged >>>> information that may be protected by law; >>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without = authorisation. >>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender = and >>>> delete this message and its attachments. >>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that = have >>>> been modified, changed or falsified. >>>> Thank you. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:37:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014B11AE19E for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:37:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONvYwEYwUkpE for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x233.google.com (mail-pb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491581AC404 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id up15so21904405pbc.10 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hbpVt2IHOmBtf0i+4clC4SNNsqRHMBUsV9onY1lPVhE=; b=pyUYCX8H+9NXH6G9wQubmsP4XalMv9ztodX7775oB6MlyOVTWC/fTnXSL53zHxyEIC nxxus4Gwal+4/eKlS08Zt1V7unmUvDDdRPTIM2zOoZBja8NprWoheixQj7mXsI+m4BCa CkJRVTC+/bor5YvSl7rlAsFXO+MNlSgkvVm0Aakzr3D+KVp3p6AOBizBzi/E4F6xyTeY KmbZA/2l9rQmKddJRVShRs/nZ/wKjdBHwntSnqdHvmzknr9HO3AYZrZp8EFP3+5cSnlq iNVz8wdlBcCMP0/PZjASUufS96EMTHiifXj5fIIYXC9Bzw/o0lgSC/a59yWDgrBjk+Wg 23rw== X-Received: by 10.69.12.36 with SMTP id en4mr40542933pbd.54.1386099444669; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pedros-mbp.jnpr.net ([66.129.239.12]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bh6sm39291436pad.20.2013.12.03.11.37.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:37:23 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: <529E2CAE.6070705@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:37:21 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3BF2BF76-D3B0-4CE3-BA11-11D5DA22B7C9@gmail.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> <529E2CAE.6070705@isi.edu> To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:37:29 -0000 On Dec 3, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Joe Touch wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 12/3/2013 10:47 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: >> Joe, >>=20 >> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:54 AM, Joe Touch wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 12/3/2013 12:55 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: >>>> Is the fundamental IP behavior that you are referring to the TTL = decrement between two addresses on the same "subnet" ? >>>> I believe you are wrong: to my knowledge proxy ARP is compliant = with Host and Router requirement RFCs. >>>=20 >>> For IPv4, RFC1812 says that all 1's "limited broadcast" >>> (255.255.255.255) MUST NOT be forwarded. RFC2644 updates that RFC to = say >>> that even subnet-directed broadcasts MUST NOT be forwarded (as >>> configured by default). >>>=20 >>> So by default, a router would never forward the broadcast for which = the >>> proxy ARP would be an appropriate response. >>=20 >> yes. >>=20 >>> Which would mean that the >>> proxy would work only if already populated at the router; >>=20 >> I don't follow. Lets assume i've a device that is an IP compliant >> router which has interface A and interface B. >> The quote above means that it should not forward a packet address to >> 255.255.255.255 between link A and link B (or vice-versa). This has >> nothing no relationship to whether this device is capable of = generating >> ARP requests or proxy ARP replies. >=20 > ARP requests would never be forwarded across such a device. This means > that proxy ARP responses would either have to be manually configured = or > learned by the actions of some other party. That is incorrect. The typical scenario where proxy arp is used the IP device has the = knowledge of the subnets but not the host. ARP works just fine. Example interface A: 10.0.0.0/25, interface B: 10.0.0.128/25. Host configuration: 10.0.0/24 > There's no opportunity to > have the proxy ARP be a short-cut for a relayed ARP - which limits the > cases where proxy ARP can be used. >=20 >>> there would be >>> no means to forward the initial request if the cache were empty. So >>> proxy ARP would work if manually configured, but would be unreliable = if >>> automatically populated if used on a router that spans two groups of >>> hosts on the same subnet. >>=20 >> Proxy ARP is unrelated to subnet broadcasts. >=20 > See the example above; not always. I'm sorry but whether the router knows how to resolve ARP is unrelated = to the broadcast forward behavior. There is no circumstance where this = is the same process. >=20 > Joe From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Dec 3 11:42:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0091ACCEE for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:42:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rQo-9DHYFbUQ for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 716451AC404 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EADE2655A95; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 14:42:44 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C5DDC685-381D-466D-ACC3-26464BDF6017"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 14:42:43 -0500 Message-Id: <6A476E9F-7FDB-436E-9502-06C38CE9FFBA@lucidvision.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:42:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C5DDC685-381D-466D-ACC3-26464BDF6017 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B1FE1D0-1EF2-41F2-8E73-7D4ECD87B51E" --Apple-Mail=_5B1FE1D0-1EF2-41F2-8E73-7D4ECD87B51E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Robert,=20 Is documentation of problems the thrust of the document in = question? --Tom On Dec 3, 2013:7:20 AM, at 7:20 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: > Hi Wim, >=20 > I am not questioning that things can break. I am just asking that it = would be great to document those stating specific reasons or given's app = design assumptions. >=20 > Cheers, > R. >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Henderickx, Wim (Wim) = wrote: > Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such = environment and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I = also don=92t believe the people who have to fix the applications will = even read this work. >=20 > From: Robert Raszuk > Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 10:54 > To: Wim Henderickx > Cc: Pedro Roque Marques , Thomas Morin = , "l3vpn@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >=20 > Hi Wim, >=20 > I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications = may break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of = other applications may happily work on virtual subnet too.=20 >=20 > So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about = some specific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations = to document those in a draft. >=20 > For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the = operators and for the second it may give hints to application developers = to fix their code :) >=20 > Best, > R. >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_5B1FE1D0-1EF2-41F2-8E73-7D4ECD87B51E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252

= Robert, 

Is documentation of problems the = thrust of the document in question?

= --Tom


On Dec 3, = 2013:7:20 AM, at 7:20 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> = wrote:

Hi = Wim,

I am not questioning that things can break. I am just asking that it = would be great to document those stating specific reasons or given's app = design assumptions.

Cheers,
R.


On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 1:03 PM, = Henderickx, Wim (Wim) <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com> = wrote:
Robert, I got surprised recently how many things break in such = environment and this is why I am reluctant to standardise this work. I = also don=92t believe the people who have to fix the applications will = even read this work.

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tuesday 3 December 2013 = 10:54
To: Wim Henderickx <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>
Cc: Pedro Roque Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>, Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com>, "l3vpn@ietf.org" <l3vpn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: on limitations of = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet

Hi Wim,

I think you are right that perhaps some Ethernet based applications = may break. But perhaps it is worth to observe that wast majority of = other applications may happily work on virtual subnet too. 

So maybe rather then stopping adoption those who are worried about = some specific applications not working in any of today's L2 emulations = to document those in a draft.

For one it could be nice deployment guideline document to the = operators and for the second it may give hints to application developers = to fix their code :)

Best,
R.


= --Apple-Mail=_5B1FE1D0-1EF2-41F2-8E73-7D4ECD87B51E-- --Apple-Mail=_C5DDC685-381D-466D-ACC3-26464BDF6017 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJSnjQzAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZ+n4P/A93rZ+X3jG5Bf09kCULJ9v2 H/NH+DaC+Z6X9AXMuLoeVFZQNgN6ysBOtvs0n9/OXeOd2Vu/ZtJ2pw7Jg0ZwqYyc ebqVrbFYYrFuo++9J0nuO1+qF3mOG7pQpbjPatma8wNi7XWAWw76vPdX+CFIfxR3 D1Y9SMZz/uKX0dbw2eE8hdgSstdtVGZppcsCvvcono6/a8J4UpZlRYBzQSQ8jEDt P2059I7AFqYtrQaNoiP8+UO93pFU56yjAAYNPB1lE4a8Cfw+KLGjDgD0M4u5j/J4 hyakN0Uf0ArNiPgZIcToLD+ODBzlNVVlabcsG8kzslH/EdYRSHJ5XwKZcaMXPPNh PIBC8VymfcxLteWXMFTQPztevFWqErgQC0OJv9YL+0fB2lkJSkzLGAozgKS93ywH R6CZf4++8j/BhQWXyj6jpTsuAYVmi6AyqgyZmPQnzcMkAjXs30qjvF8x+I1wvuqe lrA5PB3lWzqlx/284R2whSIyL1M2H22qZ/eXYC5uLYtNWdMFzPCJ9+hu3mKokiS+ PtPqK+2cwIOjISfMaxiB0nNyaTpo6V7bL8NdbtMNX25xfcEN8uCMg0vqXPysK7sF JZpSwra9tHatX3DTlUJ/wcU8Fc/tMLC3W6DA6SvjjyA44ycrPAyNallHTNuiec5C NJxpelFvqCWBOVDUAOtQ =SrWs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C5DDC685-381D-466D-ACC3-26464BDF6017-- From touch@isi.edu Tue Dec 3 11:44:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F8F1AE1A4 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2joOz0vqel9z for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE19F1AD8ED for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id rB3JhF7J002800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:43:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <529E34B2.3040609@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:44:50 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pedro Roque Marques Subject: Re: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFF1F.6040908@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:44:22 -0000 On 12/3/2013 11:30 AM, Pedro Roque Marques wrote: > Joe, > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:56 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > >> PS - it seems obvious to me that placing a router (an L3 IP forwarding >> device) between two sets of hosts considered on the same "subnet" is broken. >> >> What you want there is an L2 switch, not an L3 device. > > It depends on who is "you"... > > The vast majority of applications are not capable of accessing the > L2 header of a packet; if "you" have applications that care about the > L2 header and a specific L2 behavior then "you" must provide that > model. The same is true for L3, though. > That is one of the issues that come up repeatedly around this topic. > There are very different requirements between traditional/legacy > data-centers deployments and "scale out" deployments. The most > successful scale out deployments do not support L2 semantics. It is a > tradeoff: not having to support ethernet emulation simplifies networking > and it turns out there is a class of applications that don't care. That > shouldn't prevent people from adding "an L2 switch" when serving the > traditional market. > > There where applications in the past that relied on an ethernet bus > behavior and assumed that they could listen to unicast packets sent to > any MAC. They ought to have been using a broadcast address if broadcast was desired. > When switches where introduced they had to change to use > unregistered MAC on an L2 emulation that don't broadcast unknown > unicast packets they will again have to change. Had they correctly used a broadcast address, it would have continued to work. > Even the concept of what > is an L2 service changes over time and applications that rely on side > effects may be impacted.. So far you've convinced me that if you don't understand the L2 you're using, you can see inadvertent side-effects. However, if you do understand the L2, things would have continued to work fine. > they are very few however. And it is often an > accepted trade-off to not support these in new environments. An Ethernet that doesn't support broadcast addresses isn't Ethernet anymore. If someone sells you something they claim is Ethernet and broadcast addresses aren't supported, return it. But I don't see why we should deal with this as a "new environment". Yes, there are L2s that don't support broadcast, and many Internet mechanisms don't react well to them (see RFC 3819 ). > So perhaps instead of using terms like "broken", we can discuss what > service model a given solution provides. And consider that given service > models have advantages and drawbacks. And some don't support Internet as L3 until there is support for some sort of broadcast emulation (e.g., RFC 1577). > It is perfectly reasonable to ask the author of the draft that is > being discussed to clarify what is the service model: what is the TTL > treatment; the IP broadcast model, etc. You can then let the network > operator decide what are their specific requirements. If it's an Internet L3 subnet, then see RFC 3819. If that's not what you can support, then see RFC 1577 for suggestions on how to emulate what's *required*. No, I don't think changing the Internet models to support incomplete solutions is a good idea for anyone. Joe From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Tue Dec 3 18:23:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5D91ADFE1 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:23:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.087 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhetacOgucZl for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019E01ADF33 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAZ33995; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:23:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:22:13 +0000 Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:23:03 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:22:56 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Joe Touch , Pedro Roque Marques Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogb24gbGltaXRhdGlvbnMgb2YgZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVh?= =?gb2312?Q?l-subnet?= Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO71MjfcKF3/urz0CT0gD+3DsegppAbeMAgAE4GYCAAHWlgIAAO/4AgAAD4ACAAOP+UA== Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:22:56 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0823A886@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFF1F.6040908@isi.edu> <529E34B2.3040609@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <529E34B2.3040609@isi.edu> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:23:12 -0000 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Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896081ADF96 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id AYP19691; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:35:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:34:44 +0000 Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:35:34 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:35:30 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Joe Touch , Pedro Roque Marques , "Henderickx, Wim (Wim)" Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogb24gbGltaXRhdGlvbnMgb2YgZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVh?= =?gb2312?Q?l-subnet?= Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO71MjfcKF3/urz0CT0gD+3DsegppAbeMAgAE4GYCAAHU+AIABNkGA Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:35:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0823A8A7@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , 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(10.201.5.217) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:49:11 +0000 Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:49:56 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:49:51 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Joe Touch , Pedro Roque Marques Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogb24gbGltaXRhdGlvbnMgb2YgZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVh?= =?gb2312?Q?l-subnet?= Thread-Topic: on limitations of draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHO71MjfcKF3/urz0CT0gD+3DsegppAbeMAgAE4GYCAAHU+AIAAMEwAgAAGawCAAQTTIA== Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:49:50 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0823A8BE@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <12153_1385981678_529C66EE_12153_496_1_529C6471.5030606@orange.com> <30041_1385984350_529C715E_30041_6512_1_529C6E01.6020205@orange.com> <0B8CE430-8ADE-4A96-AD52-163126A57096@gmail.com> <529DFEC8.20305@isi.edu> <529E2CAE.6070705@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <529E2CAE.6070705@isi.edu> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:50:04 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQo+ILeivP7IyzogTDNWUE4gW21haWx0bzpsM3Zwbi1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSC0+rHtIEpvZSBUb3VjaA0KPiC3osvNyrG85DogMjAxM8TqMTLUwjTI 1SAzOjExDQo+IMrVvP7IyzogUGVkcm8gUm9xdWUgTWFycXVlcw0KPiCzrcvNOiBUaG9tYXMgTW9y 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dWNoIGEgZGV2aWNlLiBUaGlzIG1lYW5zIHRoYXQNCj4gcHJveHkgQVJQIHJlc3BvbnNlcyB3b3Vs ZCBlaXRoZXIgaGF2ZSB0byBiZSBtYW51YWxseSBjb25maWd1cmVkIG9yIGxlYXJuZWQgYnkNCj4g dGhlIGFjdGlvbnMgb2Ygc29tZSBvdGhlciBwYXJ0eS4gVGhlcmUncyBubyBvcHBvcnR1bml0eSB0 byBoYXZlIHRoZSBwcm94eSBBUlANCj4gYmUgYSBzaG9ydC1jdXQgZm9yIGEgcmVsYXllZCBBUlAg LSB3aGljaCBsaW1pdHMgdGhlIGNhc2VzIHdoZXJlIHByb3h5IEFSUCBjYW4gYmUNCj4gdXNlZC4N Cg0KSGkgSm9lLA0KDQpJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IHlvdSBoYXZlIG1pc3Rha2VubHkgdGFrZW4gdGhl IEFSUCBwcm94eSBhcyB0aGUgQVJQIGNhY2hlIHNpbmNlIEFSUCByZXF1ZXN0cyBoYXZlIG5ldmVy IGJlZW4gZXhwZWN0ZWQgdG8gYmUgZm9yd2FyZGVkIGFjcm9zcyBzdWNoIGEgZGV2aWNlIGluIHRo ZSBBUlAgcHJveHkgY2FzZS4NCg0KWGlhb2h1DQoNCj4gPj4gdGhlcmUgd291bGQgYmUNCj4gPj4g bm8gbWVhbnMgdG8gZm9yd2FyZCB0aGUgaW5pdGlhbCByZXF1ZXN0IGlmIHRoZSBjYWNoZSB3ZXJl IGVtcHR5LiBTbw0KPiA+PiBwcm94eSBBUlAgd291bGQgd29yayBpZiBtYW51YWxseSBjb25maWd1 cmVkLCBidXQgd291bGQgYmUgdW5yZWxpYWJsZQ0KPiA+PiBpZiBhdXRvbWF0aWNhbGx5IHBvcHVs YXRlZCBpZiB1c2VkIG9uIGEgcm91dGVyIHRoYXQgc3BhbnMgdHdvIGdyb3Vwcw0KPiA+PiBvZiBo b3N0cyBvbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBzdWJuZXQuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBQcm94eSBBUlAgaXMgdW5yZWxhdGVk IHRvIHN1Ym5ldCBicm9hZGNhc3RzLg0KPiANCj4gU2VlIHRoZSBleGFtcGxlIGFib3ZlOyBub3Qg YWx3YXlzLg0KPiANCj4gSm9lDQo= From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Dec 10 05:18:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21461AE078 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:18:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StZ6HBlsUDRE for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6341AE062 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id rBADIcR7004415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:18:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id rBADITT9019383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:18:37 +0100 Received: from [172.27.205.188] (135.239.27.40) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:18:36 +0100 Message-ID: <52A714AB.5060604@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:18:35 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling References: <14292_1377096453_5214D305_14292_2376_1_AC1ADC68A92CF94FA8CFCB406C1CBE3D07570795@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <14292_1377096453_5214D305_14292_2376_1_AC1ADC68A92CF94FA8CFCB406C1CBE3D07570795@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.40] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:18:48 -0000 All, we are now over with this. Sorry for the delayed statement on the list. We'll be moving on to the next step. I'll be the Shepherd. -m Le 21/08/2013 16:47, thomas.morin@orange.com a écrit : > Hello working group, > > This email starts a two-week Working Group Last Call on > draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling, which is considered mature > and ready for a working group review. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling > > Please read the document if you haven't read the most recent version, > and send your comments to the list, no later than Wednesday September 4th. > > Thank you, > > -Thomas & Martin > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Dec 10 05:47:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE501ADE87 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:47:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dJ_DXafgMJbI for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140BD1ACB4E for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id rBADl7O7013986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:47:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id rBADkbux015265 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:47:06 +0100 Received: from [172.27.205.188] (135.239.27.38) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:47:01 +0100 Message-ID: <52A71B55.5090507@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:47:01 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: Implementations of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.38] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 Cc: draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling@tools.ietf.org, "thomas.morin@orange.com" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:47:17 -0000 WG, authors, for the document write-up we need information on implementations. Please let the co-chairs know of existing implementations or of plans to implement. Thanks -m From jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com Tue Dec 10 08:42:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9281ADFD1 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:42:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Chjz7enwpjqs for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DD11ADFA3 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-b7fbd8e0000011cc-7d-52a744540188 Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F2.6E.04556.45447A25; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:41:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB109.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.126]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:41:56 -0500 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Martin Vigoureux , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Implementations of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling Thread-Topic: Implementations of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling Thread-Index: AQHO9a5b2qZLYVGU00y8uTFJKPDPPppNb86A Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:41:56 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52A71B55.5090507@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <150244952F0882408923E3AD08487175@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn26oy/Igg62tfBaHz91itzg739/i zq4vrBYb9h1lc2DxaH22l9VjyZKfTB4tz06yeXy5/JktgCWKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK+NT42+2 gn3sFTN+vGVtYDzG1sXIySEhYCLROW0vlC0mceHeeiCbi0NI4AijxMpll5khnOWMEqunNIJV sQkYSPz/dpwFxBYRiJe4eu47C0gRs8A2Ronpry+DJYQFvCXurZrKBFHkI3Hs9Roo20hiwd0n YINYBFQlli6fD1bPK2Au8X/5WnYQmxOoZsqPv4wgNiPQSd9PQfQyC4hL3HoynwniVAGJJXvO M0PYohIvH/9jBbFFBfQk2o6dYYeIK0ssebKfBaJXR2LB7k9sELa1xOm3VxghbG2JZQtfM0Pc IChxcuYTlgmM4rOQrJuFpH0WkvZZSNpnIWlfwMi6ipGjtDi1LDfdyHATIzD+jkmwOe5gXPDJ 8hCjNAeLkjjvl7fOQUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmpxYcYmTg4pRoYGfLjfCyileX4tyWtK4/v W28ooLdLXcFON39Xs5ST1MXA92kW9QZhEsqiU//cL/LRVXmkvWq6a/j3P62vZhxXljVvdN4p e0XqsoLziq5NhcpmN1Xu+U/fENzYFLNj8ulWyQmbbd2zHHOS7yp4dH8OrDCP+7Gy99+rL2ca FDXubOGTCGSc7K3EUpyRaKjFXFScCABgftmQjQIAAA== Cc: "draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling@tools.ietf.org" , "thomas.morin@orange.com" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:42:06 -0000 Dear Chairs, Ericsson will be having an implementation in 2014. Cheers, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 5:47 AM To: "l3vpn@ietf.org" Cc: "draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling@tools.ietf.org" , Thomas Morin Subject: Implementations of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling Resent-To: , IJsbrand Wijnands , Jeff Tantsura , , , Wim Henderickx >WG, authors, > >for the document write-up we need information on implementations. > >Please let the co-chairs know of existing implementations or of plans to >implement. > >Thanks >-m