From thomas.morin@orange.com Tue Feb 4 05:36:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1052C1A041E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TiBAMQpUxp-t for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp03.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.125]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106261A0416 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([86.214.139.163]) by mwinf5d58 with ME id NDcA1n00F3Xj0j203DcByq; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 14:36:15 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69801805A6; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:35:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 14:35:48 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l3vpn@ietf.org Subject: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:36:18 -0000 Hello working group, This email starts a two-week poll on adopting draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). This poll runs until February 9th. *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details). ==> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from each author and contributor. If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. Thank you, Martin & Thomas l3vpn chairs [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Feb 4 05:37:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E35B1A043E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:37:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4x7HHzrmy_p for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail1.alcatel.com (hoemail1.alcatel.com [192.160.6.148]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BD91A041E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-122.lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by hoemail1.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s14DavXH029709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Feb 2014 07:36:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s14DavRn022402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:36:57 +0100 Received: from [172.27.205.227] (135.239.27.38) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:36:57 +0100 Message-ID: <52F0ECF8.8050804@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:36:56 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yakov Rekhter Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-03.txt References: <201401291934.s0TJYaL17131@magenta.juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <201401291934.s0TJYaL17131@magenta.juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.38] Cc: erosen@cisco.com, thomas.morin@orange.com, l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:37:03 -0000 Hello Yakov, we have few drafts in the pipeline, we'll launch the WG LC following the closure of the WG LC on end systems. -m Le 29/01/2014 20:34, Yakov Rekhter a écrit : > Dear L3VPN WG chairs, > > The authors of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-03.txt would like > to ask you for a WG Last Call on the draft. > > Yakov. > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:53:27 -0800 > From: > To: > cc: > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-03.txt > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Layer 3 Virtual Private Networks Working Grou > p of the IETF. > > Title : Extranet Multicast in BGP/IP MPLS VPNs > Authors : Yakov Rekhter > Eric C. Rosen > Rahul Aggarwal > Yiqun Cai > Wim Henderickx > Thomas Morin > Praveen Muley > Ray Qiu > IJsbrand Wijnands > Filename : draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-03.txt > Pages : 55 > Date : 2014-01-29 > > Abstract: > Previous RFCs specify the procedures necessary to allow IP multicast > traffic to travel from one site to another within a BGP/MPLS IP VPN > (Virtual Private Network). However, it is sometimes desirable to > allow multicast traffic whose source is in one VPN to be received by > systems that are in another VPN. This is known as a "Multicast VPN > (MVPN) extranet". This document updates RFCs 6513, 6514, and 6625 by > specifying the procedures that are necessary in order to provide MVPN > extranet service. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-03 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-03 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > From christian.jacquenet@orange.com Tue Feb 4 05:38:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC57F1A0441 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:38:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AOG2msKe812H for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias245.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.245]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F9E1A041E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.199]) by omfeda12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 543C73B4431; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:38:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCH61.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.32]) by omfeda06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 3B1D8C8061; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:38:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCB1C.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.13]) by PUEXCH61.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.32]) with mapi; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:38:22 +0100 From: To: MORIN Thomas IMT/OLN , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:38:21 +0100 Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: Ac8hrhw+Iv943AG8RiWieUMzeJphmwAABCKQ Message-ID: <22810_1391521103_52F0ED4F_22810_8094_1_983A1D8DA0DA5F4EB747BF34CBEE5CD15EFC64569E@PUEXCB1C.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.2.4.90915 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 05:40:09 -0800 Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:38:26 -0000 V0csDQoNCkknbSBpbiBmYXZvciBvZiBhZG9wdGluZyBkcmFmdC14dS1sM3Zwbi12aXJ0dWFsLXN1 Ym5ldCBhcyBhIGwzdnBuIFdHIGRvY3VtZW50LiBBcyBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIGNvLWF1dGhvcnMsIEkn 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b3UgaGF2ZSByZWNlaXZlZCB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGluIGVycm9yLCBwbGVhc2Ugbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBz ZW5kZXIgYW5kIGRlbGV0ZSB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIGl0cyBhdHRhY2htZW50cy4KQXMgZW1h aWxzIG1heSBiZSBhbHRlcmVkLCBPcmFuZ2UgaXMgbm90IGxpYWJsZSBmb3IgbWVzc2FnZXMgdGhh dCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbW9kaWZpZWQsIGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFsc2lmaWVkLgpUaGFuayB5b3UuCgo= From christian.jacquenet@orange.com Tue Feb 4 05:41:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8161A0444 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:41:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26X93P17pOzx for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias245.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.245]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEC61A041E for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.200]) by omfeda10.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 7BA3A3743A6; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:41:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from puexch91.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.48]) by omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5568715805E; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:41:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from PUEXCB1C.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.13]) by puexch91.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.48]) with mapi; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:41:18 +0100 From: To: MORIN Thomas IMT/OLN , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:41:15 +0100 Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: Ac8hrhw+Iv943AG8RiWieUMzeJphmwAAKibQ Message-ID: <13949_1391521278_52F0EDFE_13949_11083_1_983A1D8DA0DA5F4EB747BF34CBEE5CD15EFC6456A6@PUEXCB1C.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.2.4.90915 Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:41:21 -0000 V0csDQoNCkknbSBpbiBmYXZvciBvZiBhZG9wdGluZyBkcmFmdC14dS1sM3Zwbi12aXJ0dWFsLXN1 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dG1sL2RyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXZpcnR1YWwtc3VibmV0DQoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwoKQ2UgbWVzc2FnZSBl dCBzZXMgcGllY2VzIGpvaW50ZXMgcGV1dmVudCBjb250ZW5pciBkZXMgaW5mb3JtYXRpb25zIGNv bmZpZGVudGllbGxlcyBvdSBwcml2aWxlZ2llZXMgZXQgbmUgZG9pdmVudCBkb25jCnBhcyBldHJl IGRpZmZ1c2VzLCBleHBsb2l0ZXMgb3UgY29waWVzIHNhbnMgYXV0b3Jpc2F0aW9uLiBTaSB2b3Vz IGF2ZXogcmVjdSBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIHBhciBlcnJldXIsIHZldWlsbGV6IGxlIHNpZ25hbGVyCmEg bCdleHBlZGl0ZXVyIGV0IGxlIGRldHJ1aXJlIGFpbnNpIHF1ZSBsZXMgcGllY2VzIGpvaW50ZXMu IExlcyBtZXNzYWdlcyBlbGVjdHJvbmlxdWVzIGV0YW50IHN1c2NlcHRpYmxlcyBkJ2FsdGVyYXRp b24sCk9yYW5nZSBkZWNsaW5lIHRvdXRlIHJlc3BvbnNhYmlsaXRlIHNpIGNlIG1lc3NhZ2UgYSBl dGUgYWx0ZXJlLCBkZWZvcm1lIG91IGZhbHNpZmllLiBNZXJjaS4KClRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZSBhbmQg aXRzIGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzIG1heSBjb250YWluIGNvbmZpZGVudGlhbCBvciBwcml2aWxlZ2VkIGlu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIHRoYXQgbWF5IGJlIHByb3RlY3RlZCBieSBsYXc7CnRoZXkgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBi ZSBkaXN0cmlidXRlZCwgdXNlZCBvciBjb3BpZWQgd2l0aG91dCBhdXRob3Jpc2F0aW9uLgpJZiB5 b3UgaGF2ZSByZWNlaXZlZCB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGluIGVycm9yLCBwbGVhc2Ugbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBz ZW5kZXIgYW5kIGRlbGV0ZSB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIGl0cyBhdHRhY2htZW50cy4KQXMgZW1h aWxzIG1heSBiZSBhbHRlcmVkLCBPcmFuZ2UgaXMgbm90IGxpYWJsZSBmb3IgbWVzc2FnZXMgdGhh dCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbW9kaWZpZWQsIGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFsc2lmaWVkLgpUaGFuayB5b3UuCgo= From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Feb 4 05:45:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7461A0430 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:45:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FS_REPLICA=0.994, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxsqY5cuqdhE for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D7F1A0443 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 05:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s14Djpob002042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 07:45:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s14DjndL026257 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:45:50 +0100 Received: from [172.27.205.227] (135.239.27.38) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:45:34 +0100 Message-ID: <52F0EEFD.6090504@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:45:33 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: Re: WG adoption poll - draft-zzhang-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication-01 References: <52CD3F65.7000401@alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <52CD3F65.7000401@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.38] X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:45:55 -0000 Working Group, the document is accepted as a new WG Document. Authors, could you please republish as draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication-00 with no other change than for the date and file name. Thank you -m Le 08/01/2014 13:07, Martin Vigoureux a écrit : > Hello working group, > > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-zzhang-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication-01 [1]. > > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the latter case, please also state the reasons). > > This poll runs until January the 22nd. > > > Coincidentally, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to > this email whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. The draft > will not be adopted until a response has been received from each author > and contributor. > > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author > or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of > any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > Thank you, > > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs > > [1] > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zzhang-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication > > > From martin.vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com Tue Feb 4 06:50:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CFA1A0137 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 06:50:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fz7CVbAWHb-L for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 06:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788E51A00FD for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 06:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s14EoYB8016072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 08:50:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s14EoY9G022872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 15:50:34 +0100 Received: from [172.27.205.227] (135.239.27.41) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 15:50:33 +0100 Message-ID: <52F0FE39.4000405@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 15:50:33 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: Slots requests for L3VPN WG session - IETF 89 - London Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.41] X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 14:50:37 -0000 All, the L3VPN WG will meet in London. The session (still subject to change) is scheduled Tuesday (4th), Afternoon Session III, 16:00-18:30 This is thus a call for presentation slots. Please send us your requests, before the 16th of February, indicating: draft name, speaker and desired duration (presentation + Q&As). Thank you Martin for the L3VPN co-chairs From internet-drafts@ietf.org Wed Feb 5 08:50:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22DA1A00EB; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:50:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.906 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FS_REPLICA=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zj_nYK0RtFb; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A651A0079; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication-00.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140205165021.26680.2979.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 08:50:21 -0800 Cc: l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:50:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Layer 3 Virtual Private Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Simulating "Partial Mesh of MP2MP P-Tunnels" with Ingress Replication Authors : Jeffrey Zhang Yakov Rekhter Andrew Dolganow Filename : draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2014-02-05 Abstract: RFC 6513 described a method to support bidirectional C-flow using "Partial Mesh of MP2MP P-Tunnels". This document describes how partial mesh of MP2MP P-Tunnels can be simulated with Ingress Replication, instead of a real MP2MP tunnel. This enables a Service Provider to use Ingress Replication to offer transparent BIDIR-PIM service to its VPN customers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-bidir-ingress-replication-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From lucy.yong@huawei.com Wed Feb 5 14:44:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1711A026A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s8jY_aMsXdW9 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABAB1A022B for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAV22521; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 22:44:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:43:39 +0000 Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:44:19 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.21]) by dfweml704-chm.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.202]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:44:06 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Thomas Morin Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIbhOtXg5dxHO5EKBHnj8EcLp05qnOB2Q Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:44:06 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329859@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.157.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 22:44:26 -0000 U3VwcG9ydCENCkx1Y3kNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEwzVlBO IFttYWlsdG86bDN2cG4tYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFRob21hcyBNb3Jp bg0KU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMDQsIDIwMTQgNzozNiBBTQ0KVG86IGwzdnBuQGll dGYub3JnDQpDYzogZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJuZXRAdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcN 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Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:44:19 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.21]) by dfweml703-chm.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.188]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:44:07 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , L3VPN Subject: RE: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Thread-Topic: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Thread-Index: AQHPHpVQ5htCaFR7ykOR4ESqcykqdZqnPpjQ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 22:44:07 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329862@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> References: <2395_1391180487_52EBBAC7_2395_6153_1_52EBBAC6.6010305@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <2395_1391180487_52EBBAC7_2395_6153_1_52EBBAC6.6010305@orange.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.157.174] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 22:44:26 -0000 SSBoYWQgc29tZSBjb21tZW50cyBvbiB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IHdoaWxlIGFnby4gDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwtYXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvbDN2cG4vY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMzgyMC5odG1sDQoN Ckkgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBzZWUgc29tZSBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBob3cgdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHN1 cHBvcnRzIFZNIG1vYmlsaXR5LCB3aGljaCBpcyB0aGUga2V5IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50IGluIG5ldHdv cmsgdmlydHVhbGl6YXRpb24gaW4gREMsIGFsc28gaG93IHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhlIGVuZCBzeXN0 ZW0gbW9iaWxpdHkgd2hlcmUgdGhlIHN5c3RlbSBpcyBhIGxhcHRvcCBvciBzbWFydCBwaG9uZS4N Cg0KSWYgVlBOIGZvcndhcmRlciBpcyBvbiB0aGUgZW5kIHN5c3RlbSwgaS5lLiBzZXJ2ZXIsIHRo ZSBzZXJ2ZXIgbWF5IGhhdmUgdHdvIHBoeXNpY2FsbHkgcG9ydHMgY29ubmVjdHMgdG8gVE9SIHN3 aXRjaGVzLiBEb2VzIEdSRSB0dW5uZWwgdXNlIG9uZSBwb3J0IG9yIGJvdGggcG9ydHMsIGhvdyBl bmQgc3lzdGVtIHNob3VsZCBpbXBsZW1lbnQgdGhpcz8gIA0KDQpJZiBWUE4gZm9yd2FyZGVyIGlz 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IGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFsc2lmaWVkLg0KVGhhbmsgeW91Lg0KDQo= From rraszuk@gmail.com Wed Feb 5 15:16:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC061A022A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:16:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99ZeEZ_wOLtJ for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x232.google.com (mail-lb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5E61A0223 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f178.google.com with SMTP id u14so861843lbd.23 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pOPUxvktWACK3XHWkJPDmjQFCKQFmsMMVXFEpA8fl1Q=; b=t60dXhqq1C1K7NukcLY+JqxtbPYGAo6ZM9Mehm0NN+N3e7IQgLvyIQ/DK8Bq/lLsDI dzTJlVHrKs1qeoj+KjwaEriOtJv6+AC96yyCwfHPSGL/vP3Kwb+4ni/zvBWulIiErdff exBYfnVJsbwa5Ce/bxt46ztoYS/aNs70xsoQ6zgk/4OowE4nZ8eCJ+iizr7c+A7076+G Bvb99BO8VmNRCZ8jHG+2HwPLPl2FNnMhSSUOHnQxC/FRGOKC50KYUd8gy5V1JJt4OVpC rKUjOAYapN2ANcmObVe/3mhZ14h1OF9kVCV4voMzvFr6BlhB4qPlYaHFBzHikXkkqkU+ hkgg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.33.108 with SMTP id q12mr2760877lbi.8.1391642157357; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 00:15:57 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bdpMkI09xIoieW57zBNp9RvIqns Message-ID: Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Robert Raszuk To: Thomas Morin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae947362f71a0ff04f1b0f045 Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 23:16:01 -0000 --14dae947362f71a0ff04f1b0f045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Support (as co-author) Null level of awareness of any IPR. r. On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Thomas Morin wrote: > Hello working group, > > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. > > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). > > This poll runs until February 9th. > > > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). > > ==> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any > relevant IPR. > > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from > each author and contributor. > > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author > or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of > any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > Thank you, > > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs > > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet > --14dae947362f71a0ff04f1b0f045 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Support (as co-author)=A0
Null level of awareness of any IPR.

r.


On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Thomas Morin= <thomas.morin@orange.com> wrote:
Hello working group,

This email starts a two-week poll on adopting
draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item.

Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or
not (in the later case, please also state the reasons).

This poll runs until February 9th.


*Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that
applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in
compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669
and 5378 for more details).

=3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any rele= vant IPR.

The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from
each author and contributor.

If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author
or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of
any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

Thank you,

Martin & Thomas
l3vpn chairs

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-su= bnet

--14dae947362f71a0ff04f1b0f045-- From rraszuk@gmail.com Wed Feb 5 15:29:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571041A0234 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:29:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pG_uyIvLW0Z for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x22e.google.com (mail-la0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60751A0224 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f46.google.com with SMTP id b8so889304lan.5 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:29:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=2+sj5pL2dsnBWdjIHfa3aeTX2m6byrv/wF/3/Wh10xw=; b=HkcUgNBVTBIl/PV4u32QwhxXo5ZYHgQ0gUcoDfilDTie9oFRLzUgmGaI9HIvNe4S4Q tgn6rq2x4qyq30+5EVhUeupCprJtC4rka6cH3EjH94d/j0NO+VRkm+lsmaIyUUFeUx3B 4uUNnB0C8Gry69rxiBRaCwjJGyG3cvNvyqVZvfYMaa6poD2pgrHoB4meTRmISKoD+Bpk 1all2cNjKGRtDZeRTuAm2UxIfZYMNrrHUlZFkWpr+EdImxtDWuO3T6PYNFgSjOOw+nry FAdUGBoLyJFzE9Hnlko9XUOQOpJ9cwN3mui+m/CDF2/U4R7+RghSwJQz03soI+S2D53B Inrg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.113.5.167 with SMTP id cn7mr2703737lbd.1.1391642943213; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:29:03 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:29:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329862@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> References: <2395_1391180487_52EBBAC7_2395_6153_1_52EBBAC6.6010305@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329862@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 00:29:03 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: JZ4DbJIXW5TSufYRx6E6YHJsQnk Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system From: Robert Raszuk To: Lucy yong Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11347b7c48d29d04f1b11fa7 Cc: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 23:29:07 -0000 --001a11347b7c48d29d04f1b11fa7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Lucy, I would like to see some explanation how the solution supports VM mobility, > which is the key requirement in network virtualization in DC, also how to > support the end system mobility where the system is a laptop or smart phone. > I think you need to be a bit more specific on your definition of VM mobility ... cold or hot ? Same IP/different IP, with keeping the sessions (TCP) state or not. VM mobility actually from tentat virtualization is an easy part and works as far as bgp/xmpp withdraw message can propagate. Notice that in the VRF you can have backup entries (corresponding to your new VM) which can be preinstalled and activated later. If VPN forwarder is on the end system, i.e. server, the server may have two > physically ports connects to TOR switches. Does GRE tunnel use one port or > both ports, how end system should implement this? > Notice that host is an L3 device. So each such port would be part of a different L3 path to BGP NH. It can nicely load balance across many parallel links to TOR. If VPN forwarder is on external device, the end system (server) may have > two physical ports as well. Could virtual network interfaces on the end > system attach to two external VPN forwarder or just one. > I see no problem to attach to N of them. Moreover just like in distributed systems not all of them need to keep all VPN routes and optimization is possible for "selective download feature" - analogy from selective download from local RP to linecards. In BGP IP VPN [RFC4364], routing and forwarding are coupled; Route Target > defines the routing and forwarding topology. When separating them into > Route Server and VPN forwarder and one Route Server with many VPN > forwarders, which topology that Route Target define? Only symmetric > configuration is intuitive to me. > I see no such tights. Each VPN forwarder can express set of VPNs it is responsible for and only subset of interesting routes will be distributed to it. As deployed example RTC can be used or it's analogy encoded in XMPP. Cheers, R. > > Wish to see some descriptions on these areas. I am not against this > solution but think it needs more work. > > Regards, > Lucy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > thomas.morin@orange.com > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 9:01 AM > To: L3VPN > Subject: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system > > Hello working group, > > This email starts a Working Group Last Call on > draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system, which is considered mature and ready for a > working group review. > > Please read the document if you haven't read the most recent version yet, > and send your comments to the list, no later than **February 15th**. > > Thank you, > > -Thomas & Martin > > [ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system ] > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par > erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les > pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou > falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, > used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been > modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > --001a11347b7c48d29d04f1b11fa7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lucy,

I would like to s= ee some explanation how the solution supports VM mobility, which is the key= requirement in network virtualization in DC, also how to support the end s= ystem mobility where the system is a laptop or smart phone.


I t= hink you need to be a bit more specific on your definition of VM mobility .= .. cold or hot ? Same IP/different IP, with keeping the sessions (TCP) stat= e or not.=A0

VM mobility actua= lly from tentat virtualization is an easy part and works as far as bgp/xmpp= withdraw message can propagate. Notice that in the VRF you can have backup= entries (corresponding to your new VM) which can be preinstalled and activ= ated later.=A0

If VPN forwarder is on the end sys= tem, i.e. server, the server may have two physically ports connects to TOR = switches. Does GRE tunnel use one port or both ports, how end system should= implement this?

Notice that host i= s an L3 device. So each such port would be part of a different L3 path to B= GP NH. It can nicely load balance across many parallel links to TOR.

If VPN forwarder is on external device, the end system (server) may have tw= o physical ports as well. Could virtual network interfaces on the end syste= m attach to two external VPN forwarder or just one.

I see no problem to attach to N of t= hem. Moreover just like in distributed systems not all of them need to keep= all VPN routes and optimization is possible for "selective download f= eature" - analogy from selective download from local RP to linecards.<= /div>

In BGP IP VPN [RFC4364]= , routing and forwarding are coupled; Route Target defines the routing and = forwarding topology. When separating them into Route Server and VPN forward= er and one Route Server with many VPN forwarders, which topology that Route= Target define? Only symmetric configuration is intuitive to me.

I see no such tigh= ts. Each VPN forwarder can express set of VPNs it is responsible for and on= ly subset of interesting routes will be distributed to it. As deployed exam= ple RTC can be used or it's analogy encoded in XMPP.=A0

Cheers,
R.

=A0

Wish to see some descriptions on these areas. I am not against this solutio= n but think it needs more work.

Regards,
Lucy



-----Original Message-----
From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of thom= as.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 9:01 AM
To: L3VPN
Subject: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system

Hello working group,

This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system,= which is considered mature and ready for a working group review.

Please read the document if you haven't read the most recent version ye= t, and send your comments to the list, no later than **February 15th**.

Thank you,

-Thomas & Martin

[ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system ] __= ___________________________________________________________________________= ____________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes= . Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange de= cline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie.= Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


--001a11347b7c48d29d04f1b11fa7-- From bfee@enterasys.com Wed Feb 5 16:00:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BF41A01BA for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 16:00:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvXpO6FUEamK for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod8og105.obsmtp.com (exprod8og105.obsmtp.com [64.18.3.90]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D601A0141 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f45.google.com ([209.85.216.45]) (using TLSv1) by exprod8ob105.postini.com ([64.18.7.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUvLQoOe4WfA1uNlFzziL9OgIoZ/gjc3t@postini.com; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:00:32 PST Received: by mail-qa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id ii20so1675941qab.4 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:00:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=eB/DXd5/I/JHMDKLvssdKxesgxy6G1JMPLenBHpORq4=; b=NMznOD/Yjl0jVRBvp/b0cjzaYLMEP9pGsnowCsJHPU+D71L7mVm85RHskMHprL4+LE foCp/K9rReSu1ZOnpgkGB+bcNxv7hGYFtbdHeex/Zs39mb9aTQ0ox7y7yHyebtjpa0GL 3Dl+qbPmnGdkMT7RYcmZJcTiaPytHSWhEbxQrhe3e3/ZPnQ0oqItGWA8Lmv431ZpsWQ3 XlX6jBgq4SkIB0tXclMEuWoAZ8Urdylzb4zxrsKEJLJuNI0OIWQj1H5fKmSW+62i4wOF ozjbNhTjuCAoVKdb2n7QDRMy6UDWGhWYWmhDbo83AsT6PPq6HpNaparLGZroMw/LpJJT NwNQ== X-Received: by 10.224.28.197 with SMTP id n5mr7546086qac.43.1391644832016; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:00:32 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnktnxD9LMy/rFFs3/N7HTtmJsTnf9gxRxvc092RJ08u6iFhwmdFdBNv0n+3/yeF/GS6zeDMOz/9E9/bQNyMAB3q6IHjRmHRTIKUZBhAwHa65aE5ZlAd5OX5XEESKJ4i1cCoiH9GpihL1lyte1mSt+qCMv/Tg== X-Received: by 10.224.28.197 with SMTP id n5mr7546071qac.43.1391644831903; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.125] (c-24-34-50-219.hsd1.vt.comcast.net. [24.34.50.219]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j50sm39422364qgf.14.2014.02.05.16.00.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Feb 2014 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3F8EB7A0-E392-45D0-B06C-EBCE6F38573A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Brendan Fee In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 19:00:28 -0500 Message-Id: <98850186-9F2B-41DA-B846-56E05B8EE3B8@enterasys.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 00:00:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3F8EB7A0-E392-45D0-B06C-EBCE6F38573A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I support the adoption of the draft as a WG document. As a co-author I = am also unaware of any IPR. Thanks Brendan =20 On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:15 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Support (as co-author)=20 > Null level of awareness of any IPR. >=20 > r. >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Thomas Morin = wrote: > Hello working group, >=20 > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >=20 > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >=20 > This poll runs until February 9th. >=20 >=20 > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). >=20 > =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any = relevant IPR. >=20 > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from > each author and contributor. >=20 > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an = author > or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware = of > any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF = rules. >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs >=20 > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >=20 --Apple-Mail=_3F8EB7A0-E392-45D0-B06C-EBCE6F38573A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 I support the adoption of the draft as a WG document. As a co-author I am also unaware of any IPR.

Thanks

Brendan
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:15 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Support (as co-author) 
Null level of awareness of any IPR.

r.


On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com> wrote:
Hello working group,

This email starts a two-week poll on adopting
draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item.

Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or
not (in the later case, please also state the reasons).

This poll runs until February 9th.


*Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that
applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in
compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669
and 5378 for more details).

==> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please
respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.

The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from
each author and contributor.

If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author
or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of
any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

Thank you,

Martin & Thomas
l3vpn chairs

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet


--Apple-Mail=_3F8EB7A0-E392-45D0-B06C-EBCE6F38573A-- From lucy.yong@huawei.com Wed Feb 5 18:54:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6001A0340 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:54:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hp4C39ba5QKX for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF951A033E for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDH37446; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 02:54:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 02:53:55 +0000 Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 02:54:36 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.21]) by dfweml702-chm.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.231]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:54:27 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Robert Raszuk Subject: RE: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Thread-Topic: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Thread-Index: AQHPHpVQ5htCaFR7ykOR4ESqcykqdZqnPpjQgACedYD//6wdQA== Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 02:54:27 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> References: <2395_1391180487_52EBBAC7_2395_6153_1_52EBBAC6.6010305@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329862@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.157.174] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1dfweml701chmchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 02:54:44 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1dfweml701chmchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, From: rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Robert Rasz= uk Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:29 PM To: Lucy yong Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; L3VPN Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Hi Lucy, I would like to see some explanation how the solution supports VM mobility,= which is the key requirement in network virtualization in DC, also how to = support the end system mobility where the system is a laptop or smart phone= . I think you need to be a bit more specific on your definition of VM mobilit= y ... cold or hot ? Same IP/different IP, with keeping the sessions (TCP) s= tate or not. [Lucy] here is the text from the requirement section in the doc. IP Mobility requires the ability to "move" a device without disrupting its TCP (or UDP) transport sessions. These sessions often deploy second or sub-second keepalives to detect application failure. Experience with failure restoration in Service Provider networks shows that fast-failure restoration often requires the pre- provisioning of a restoration path. IP Mobility can be a result of devices physically moving (e.g., a WiFi enabled laptop) or workload being diverted between physical systems such as network appliances or application servers. -end I like to see hot move, no IP address change, without session restart. VM mobility actually from tentat virtualization is an easy part and works a= s far as bgp/xmpp withdraw message can propagate. Notice that in the VRF yo= u can have backup entries (corresponding to your new VM) which can be prein= stalled and activated later. [Lucy] Having a section to describe how it works is very helpful. I don't s= ee these described in the doc. Current BGP IP VPN has an issue to support V= M mobility. If this solution is to use of BGP IP VPN, it is necessary to cl= arify how it solves the issue. If VPN forwarder is on the end system, i.e. server, the server may have two= physically ports connects to TOR switches. Does GRE tunnel use one port or= both ports, how end system should implement this? Notice that host is an L3 device. So each such port would be part of a diff= erent L3 path to BGP NH. It can nicely load balance across many parallel li= nks to TOR. [Lucy] what do you mean L3 device? The host does not participate in underla= y IGP. VPN forwarder can build a tunnel using host IP address, how that be = routed or load balanced over these links to TOR, I think that the draft sho= uld describe them as the solution. If VPN forwarder is on external device, the end system (server) may have tw= o physical ports as well. Could virtual network interfaces on the end syste= m attach to two external VPN forwarder or just one. I see no problem to attach to N of them. Moreover just like in distributed = systems not all of them need to keep all VPN routes and optimization is pos= sible for "selective download feature" - analogy from selective download fr= om local RP to linecards. [Lucy] I don't see that has an issue, but think that some description is ne= cessary because these are often use cases. In BGP IP VPN [RFC4364], routing and forwarding are coupled; Route Target d= efines the routing and forwarding topology. When separating them into Route= Server and VPN forwarder and one Route Server with many VPN forwarders, wh= ich topology that Route Target define? Only symmetric configuration is intu= itive to me. I see no such tights. Each VPN forwarder can express set of VPNs it is resp= onsible for and only subset of interesting routes will be distributed to it= . As deployed example RTC can be used or it's analogy encoded in XMPP. [Lucy] Sorry, I don't get it. Do you mean that the forwarder use RTC to ex= press interesting routes? In your deployed case, do you have hub-spoke scen= arios? If yes, could you elaborate your scenarios? Thanks, Lucy Cheers, R. Wish to see some descriptions on these areas. I am not against this solutio= n but think it needs more work. Regards, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 9:01 AM To: L3VPN Subject: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Hello working group, This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system,= which is considered mature and ready for a working group review. Please read the document if you haven't read the most recent version yet, a= nd send your comments to the list, no later than **February 15th**. Thank you, -Thomas & Martin [ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system ] ________________= ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le= s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to= ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1dfweml701chmchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Robert,

 <= /p>

From: rraszuk@= gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:29 PM
To: Lucy yong
Cc: thomas.morin@orange.com; L3VPN
Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system=

 

= Hi Lucy,

=  

I would like to see some explanation how the solutio= n supports VM mobility, which is the key requirement in network virtualizat= ion in DC, also how to support the end system mobility where the system is = a laptop or smart phone.

 

 

= I think you need to be a bit more specific on your definition of VM mobilit= y ... cold or hot ? Same IP/different IP, with keeping the sessions (TCP) s= tate or not. 

[Lucy] here is the = text from the requirement section in the doc.

IP Mobility requires the abi= lity to "move" a device without

   disrupting its = TCP (or UDP) transport sessions.  These sessions often

   deploy second o= r sub-second keepalives to detect application failure.

   Experience with= failure restoration in Service Provider networks

   shows that fast= -failure restoration often requires the pre-

   provisioning of= a restoration path.

IP Mobility can = be a result of devices physically moving (e.g., a

   WiF= i enabled laptop) or workload being diverted between physical

   sys= tems such as network appliances or application servers.

-end<= /span>

 

I like to see ho= t move, no IP address change, without session restart.

 <= /p>

=  

= VM mobility actually from tentat virtualization is an easy part and works a= s far as bgp/xmpp withdraw message can propagate. Notice that in the VRF yo= u can have backup entries (corresponding to your new VM) which can be preinstalled and activated later. 

[Lucy] Having a sec= tion to describe how it works is very helpful. I don’t see these desc= ribed in the doc. Current BGP IP VPN has an issue to support VM mobility. If this solution is to use of BGP IP VPN, it is necessary to cla= rify how it solves the issue.

 

If VPN forwarder is on the end system, i.e. server, = the server may have two physically ports connects to TOR switches. Does GRE= tunnel use one port or both ports, how end system should implement this?

 

= Notice that host is an L3 device. So each such port would be part of a diff= erent L3 path to BGP NH. It can nicely load balance across many parallel li= nks to TOR.

[Lucy] what do you = mean L3 device? The host does not participate in underlay IGP. VPN forwarde= r can build a tunnel using host IP address, how that be routed or load balanced over these links to TOR, I think that the draft sh= ould describe them as the solution. 

If VPN forwarder is on external device, the end syst= em (server) may have two physical ports as well. Could virtual network inte= rfaces on the end system attach to two external VPN forwarder or just one.<= o:p>

 

= I see no problem to attach to N of them. Moreover just like in distributed = systems not all of them need to keep all VPN routes and optimization is pos= sible for "selective download feature" - analogy from selective download from local RP to linecards.

[Lucy] I don’= t see that has an issue, but think that some description is necessary becau= se these are often use cases.

 

In BGP IP VPN [RFC4364], routing and forwarding are = coupled; Route Target defines the routing and forwarding topology. When sep= arating them into Route Server and VPN forwarder and one Route Server with = many VPN forwarders, which topology that Route Target define? Only symmetric configuration is intuitive to me.=

 

= I see no such tights. Each VPN forwarder can express set of VPNs it is resp= onsible for and only subset of interesting routes will be distributed to it= . As deployed example RTC can be used or it's analogy encoded in XMPP. 

[Lucy] Sorry, I don= ’t get it.  Do you mean that the forwarder use RTC to express in= teresting routes? In your deployed case, do you have hub-spoke scenarios? If yes, could you elaborate your scenarios?

 

Thanks,<= /span>

Lucy=

 

= Cheers,
R.

 

 

 


Wish to see some descriptions on these areas. I am not against this solutio= n but think it needs more work.

Regards,
Lucy




-----Original Message-----
From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 9:01 AM
To: L3VPN
Subject: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system

Hello working group,<= br>
This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system,= which is considered mature and ready for a working group review.

Please read the document if you haven't read the most recent version yet, a= nd send your comments to the list, no later than **February 15th**.

Thank you,

-Thomas & Martin

[ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system ] ______________= ___________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou = copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez= le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su= sceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message = a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used= or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

 

--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1dfweml701chmchi_-- From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Wed Feb 5 23:28:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E911B1A037A for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 23:28:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LvmwUn_IyUTM for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 23:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x22a.google.com (mail-pb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76EB1A004C for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 23:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id jt11so1424962pbb.1 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 23:28:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=EB69XYEsCVwmCh9lNriY5UMY9EC6oG68ElOIe2dXPjk=; b=H3vjttXN6WrtjzxADNyUK1PsUtBOEEQxAFZdlP8CEZejVfNv+zI61Iq1gArU6QNkok dSBH1ea4LIkwtfwryuvREBPFS5DJLhPaIZ6yliTSi4qk/uaGzUE6ZVKR+xScbCVL7wuP bpSsDzQqHIlyoaCYVoiclWb9y/L6uUSDjjQtNjpQHMiX1SNA03s5TOJVJabMHrPQJPcK nVlHUoPvhN7tBP9Zxh0d7QZhjEJWGtAgu6zXyAhNTgHuXq3gC7MfhmFDxKrONuiic6cn 2lDLedvyEi7l8gmMhLv82WhQeUjH1qoF8DuZwVYUboWU99tLiMeQFvmmfkpq3SDZcwsh cC0A== X-Received: by 10.68.231.5 with SMTP id tc5mr10119513pbc.154.1391671734116; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 23:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.70] (173-164-176-214-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [173.164.176.214]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ac5sm160905pbc.37.2014.02.05.23.28.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Feb 2014 23:28:53 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_54741465-AD68-49CC-97B7-1E5F7D70EBF7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 23:28:47 -0800 Message-Id: <2BBE4B2C-8E73-44D8-BB80-EAB5A6AC7B53@gmail.com> References: <2395_1391180487_52EBBAC7_2395_6153_1_52EBBAC6.6010305@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329862@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> To: Lucy yong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 07:28:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_54741465-AD68-49CC-97B7-1E5F7D70EBF7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Lucy, On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Lucy yong wrote: > [Lucy] Having a section to describe how it works is very helpful. I = don=92t see these described in the doc. Current BGP IP VPN has an issue = to support VM mobility. If this solution is to use of BGP IP VPN, it is = necessary to clarify how it solves the issue. What do you believe is the issue ? I am not aware of any issue to = support VM mobility. In fact it seems to work quite well. Current BGP IP VPN supports advertising route changes Those route = advertisement changes can happen in milliseconds. VM (hot) mobility in = deployments that implement this document is constrained by storage = bandwidth. The network route advertisement is a couple of orders of = magnitude faster than VM state save and restore. > If VPN forwarder is on the end system, i.e. server, the server may = have two physically ports connects to TOR > switches. Does GRE tunnel use one port or both ports, how end system = should implement this? =20 GRE is an IP protocol. Is your question how an end-system with two = interfaces sends IP packets ? > In BGP IP VPN [RFC4364], routing and forwarding are coupled; Route = Target defines the routing and=20 > forwarding topology. When separating them into Route Server and VPN = forwarder and one Route Server with=20 > many VPN forwarders, which topology that Route Target define? Most existing L3VPN PEs have a routing engine and multiple separate = forwarding engines (aka line cards). This document does not change the = behavior of the routing component. It documents how the VRF table = calculated by the Route Server (i.e. the routing engine in a standard = PE) is transmitted to the forwarding component. The Routing and forwarding tables are not separated. I don't believe that the document is ambigous about the behavior of a = conforming implementation. It seems to me that you are looking more for = tutorial level information which is not the intent of an IETF standard. =20= Pedro.= --Apple-Mail=_54741465-AD68-49CC-97B7-1E5F7D70EBF7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Lucy,

On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:54 PM, = Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> = wrote:
[Lucy] Having a section to = describe how it works is very helpful. I don=92t see these described in = the doc. Current BGP IP VPN has an issue to support VM mobility. If this = solution is to use of BGP IP VPN, it is necessary to clarify how it = solves the = issue.

What do you believe is the issue ? I am not aware of = any issue to support VM mobility. In fact it seems to work quite = well.
Current BGP IP VPN supports advertising route changes = Those route advertisement changes can happen in milliseconds. VM (hot) = mobility in deployments that implement this document is constrained by = storage bandwidth. The network route advertisement is a couple of orders = of magnitude faster than VM state save and = restore.

> If VPN forwarder is on the end = system, i.e. server, the server may have two physically ports connects = to TOR
> switches. Does GRE tunnel use one port or both = ports, how end system should implement this? =  

GRE is an IP protocol. Is your = question how an end-system with two interfaces sends IP packets = ?

> In BGP IP VPN [RFC4364], routing and = forwarding are coupled; Route Target defines the routing = and 
> forwarding topology. When separating them into = Route Server and VPN forwarder and one Route Server = with 
> many VPN forwarders, which topology that Route = Target define?

Most existing L3VPN PEs have a = routing engine and multiple separate forwarding engines (aka line = cards). This document does not change the behavior of the routing = component. It documents how the VRF table calculated by the Route Server = (i.e. the routing engine in a standard PE) is transmitted to the = forwarding component.

The Routing and = forwarding tables are not separated.

I don't = believe that the document is ambigous about the behavior of a conforming = implementation. It seems to me that you are looking more for tutorial = level information which is not the intent of an IETF standard. =  

  Pedro.
= --Apple-Mail=_54741465-AD68-49CC-97B7-1E5F7D70EBF7-- From rraszuk@gmail.com Thu Feb 6 01:49:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53171A022D for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:49:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HaG7neN3a-Dq for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x232.google.com (mail-lb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBE41A00A9 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f178.google.com with SMTP id u14so1233591lbd.23 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 01:49:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=DokjdYuIX+2Y40EnKq01W6kN7F6IdQ64xB6xZHcD64M=; b=K3v74tToRih342G87LEIDtrXqmgDFBKUrqgPe1TqNzqrS8uVDGcVOWQKgNcAFDZMqz kuzC4/pGsXAoQE4WbXWoVg3SZQc8tZ9mjxjtDvR7ILRZUE7q197ffWa+E4gt47T5AWbo q4H2URqkRg7gNhUhbOu17ofxYSm61hY7JENVDjeriPhqkN0s5Wc2ulM+ub740azLVLnA 1hwx9jaCLQbRu2YHw5haeD5AneXsUyIq0Wi64gdTawHB5kgtkw/utAx86R2xCu4nqsfC h1FDLGuALDLvBWWzAoweydiFSfUDhvi2LNQBN5NjLtkQrVnVywVUHkLS1otbTQOQDQSV VAeA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.139.232 with SMTP id rb8mr444859lbb.53.1391680157482; Thu, 06 Feb 2014 01:49:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 01:49:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> References: <2395_1391180487_52EBBAC7_2395_6153_1_52EBBAC6.6010305@orange.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329862@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D453299C1@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 10:49:17 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Mv2IigFu08J_7SYe4GBDUFbsMgE Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system From: Robert Raszuk To: Lucy yong Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3421a6d84ca04f1b9c9be Cc: "thomas.morin@orange.com" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 09:49:21 -0000 --001a11c3421a6d84ca04f1b9c9be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Lucy, I like to see hot move, no IP address change, without session restart. > Fine, but this is not draft in question which should describe details how you mirror TCP state across VMs. That's a biggest challenge AFAIK not the routing to VM side which this draft is about. That works seamless both via presence of multiple paths in the system as well as via possible in VRF lookup if needed. *[Lucy] Having a section to describe how it works is very helpful. I don't > see these described in the doc. Current BGP IP VPN has an issue to support > VM mobility. If this solution is to use of BGP IP VPN, it is necessary to > clarify how it solves the issue.* > I am not aware about such issues. Let's not forget that VM addresses are not summarized within DC hence you have extremely fast convergence in milliseconds. *[Lucy] what do you mean L3 device? The host does not participate in > underlay IGP. * > It does not need to. Loadbalancing across two or N intercaces does not require IGP. It works fine with default routes. I see no such tights. Each VPN forwarder can express set of VPNs it is > responsible for and only subset of interesting routes will be distributed > to it. As deployed example RTC can be used or it's analogy encoded in XMPP. > > *[Lucy] Sorry, I don't get it. Do you mean that the forwarder use RTC to > express interesting routes? In your deployed case, do you have hub-spoke > scenarios? If yes, could you elaborate your scenarios? * > > > Forwarder can surely use RTC or control node can be "told" by orchestration layer which routes are required by which hosts. Cheers, R. --001a11c3421a6d84ca04f1b9c9be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lucy,

I like= to see hot move, no IP address change, without session restart.

=

Fine, but this is not draft in question which shoul= d describe details how you mirror TCP state across VMs. 

That's a biggest challenge AFAIK not = the routing to VM side which this draft is about. That works seamless both = via presence of multiple paths in the system as well as via possible in VRF= lookup if needed.

[Lucy] Having a section to describe how it work= s is very helpful. I don’t see these described in the doc. Current BG= P IP VPN has an issue to support VM mobility. If this solution is to use of BGP IP VPN, it is necessary to cla= rify how it solves the issue.


I am not aware about such issues. Let's not forget that VM addresses ar= e not summarized within DC hence you have extremely fast convergence in mil= liseconds. 


[Lucy] what d= o you mean L3 device? The host does not participate in underlay IGP.


=
It does not need to. Loadbalancing across two or N = intercaces does not require IGP. It works fine with default routes. 

I see no such tights. Each VPN forwarder can express set of VPNs= it is responsible for and only subset of interesting routes will be distri= buted to it. As deployed example RTC can be used or it's analogy encoded in XMPP. 

=

[Lucy] Sorry, I don= ’t get it.  Do you mean that the forwarder use RTC to express in= teresting routes? In your deployed case, do you have hub-spoke scenarios? If yes, could you elaborate your scenarios? <= /p>



Forwarder can surely= use RTC or control node can be "told" by orchestration layer whi= ch routes are required by which hosts. 

Cheers,
R.

--001a11c3421a6d84ca04f1b9c9be-- From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Thu Feb 6 17:45:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17D81A0587 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 17:45:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DDSoDC3eje2A for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 17:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986661A01BC for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 17:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAW24346; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 01:45:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 01:44:58 +0000 Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 01:45:41 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:45:34 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIa46V4sP2kkwM0q2YnD1uOjZwpqpCQOw Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 01:45:33 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824ABBD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 01:45:46 -0000 U3VwcG9ydCBhcyBhIGNvLWF1dGhvci4gSSdtIG5vdCBhd2FyZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSIHBlcnRhaW5p bmcgdG8gdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KWGlhb2h1DQoNCj4gLS0tLS3pgq7k u7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPiDlj5Hku7bkuro6IFRob21hcyBNb3JpbiBbbWFpbHRvOnRob21hcy5t b3JpbkBvcmFuZ2UuY29tXQ0KPiDlj5HpgIHml7bpl7Q6IDIwMTTlubQy5pyINOaXpSAyMTozNg0K PiDmlLbku7bkuro6IGwzdnBuQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IOaKhOmAgTogZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmly dHVhbC1zdWJuZXRAdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmc7IE1hcnRpbiBWaWdvdXJldXgNCj4g5Li76aKYOiBQ b2xsIGZvciBhZG9wdGlvbjogZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJuZXQNCj4gDQo+IEhl bGxvIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAsDQo+IA0KPiBUaGlzIGVtYWlsIHN0YXJ0cyBhIHR3by13ZWVrIHBv bGwgb24gYWRvcHRpbmcgZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJuZXQgWzFdDQo+IGFzIGEg d29ya2luZyBncm91cCBpdGVtLg0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIHNlbmQgY29tbWVudHMgdG8gdGhlIGxp c3QgYW5kIHN0YXRlIGlmIHlvdSBzdXBwb3J0IGFkb3B0aW9uIG9yIG5vdCAoaW4gdGhlDQo+IGxh dGVyIGNhc2UsIHBsZWFzZSBhbHNvIHN0YXRlIHRoZSByZWFzb25zKS4NCj4gDQo+IFRoaXMgcG9s bCBydW5zIHVudGlsIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDl0aC4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAqQ29pbmNpZGVudGFsbHkqLCB3 ZSBhcmUgYWxzbyBwb2xsaW5nIGZvciBrbm93bGVkZ2Ugb2YgYW55IElQUiB0aGF0IGFwcGxpZXMg dG8NCj4gdGhpcyBkcmFmdCwgdG8gZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgSVBSIGhhcyBiZWVuIGRpc2Nsb3NlZCBp biBjb21wbGlhbmNlIHdpdGggSUVURiBJUFIgcnVsZXMNCj4gKHNlZSBSRkNzIDM5NzksIDQ4Nzks IDM2NjkgYW5kIDUzNzggZm9yIG1vcmUgZGV0YWlscykuDQo+IA0KPiA9PT4gKklmIHlvdSBhcmUg bGlzdGVkIGFzIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQgYXV0aG9yIG9yIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yKiBwbGVhc2UgcmVzcG9u ZCB0bw0KPiB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGFuZCBpbmRpY2F0ZSB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB5b3UgYXJlIGF3 YXJlIG9mIGFueSByZWxldmFudCBJUFIuDQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgZHJhZnQgd2lsbCBub3QgYmUgYWRv cHRlZCB1bnRpbCBhIHJlc3BvbnNlIGhhcyBiZWVuIHJlY2VpdmVkIGZyb20gZWFjaA0KPiBhdXRo b3IgYW5kIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yLg0KPiANCj4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBvbiB0aGUgTDNWUE4gV0cgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0IGJ1dCBhcmUgbm90IGxpc3RlZCBhcyBhbiBhdXRob3Igb3INCj4gY29udHJpYnV0 b3IsIHRoZW4gcGxlYXNlIGV4cGxpY2l0bHkgcmVzcG9uZCBvbmx5IGlmIHlvdSBhcmUgYXdhcmUg b2YgYW55IElQUiB0aGF0DQo+IGhhcyBub3QgeWV0IGJlZW4gZGlzY2xvc2VkIGluIGNvbmZvcm1h bmNlIHdpdGggSUVURiBydWxlcy4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rIHlvdSwNCj4gDQo+IE1hcnRpbiAmIFRo b21hcw0KPiBsM3ZwbiBjaGFpcnMNCj4gDQo+IFsxXSBodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRt bC9kcmFmdC14dS1sM3Zwbi12aXJ0dWFsLXN1Ym5ldA0K From shares@ndzh.com Thu Feb 6 18:32:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F291A059B for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 18:32:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RjWucVJaMsJf for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 18:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2191A0503 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2014 18:32:35 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=64.112.195.202; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Xuxiaohu'" , "'Thomas Morin'" , References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824ABBD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824ABBD@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 21:32:17 -0500 Message-ID: <006501cf23ac$d294ade0$77be09a0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGZCPPnAc1+Y/vQoNcJJi8Vq1M04QIudX0ZmwPT68A= Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 02:18:04 -0800 Cc: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 02:32:38 -0000 Support as a co-author. I'm not aware of any IPR pertaining to this = draft. Best regards, Sue=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Thomas Morin = [mailto:thomas.morin@orange.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2014=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 21:36 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: l3vpn@ietf.org > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; = Martin Vigoureux > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >=20 > Hello working group, >=20 > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting=20 > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >=20 > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or=20 > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >=20 > This poll runs until February 9th. >=20 >=20 > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that=20 > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in=20 > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for = more details). >=20 > =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please = > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any = relevant IPR. >=20 > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from=20 > each author and contributor. >=20 > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an=20 > author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are=20 > aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with = IETF rules. >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs >=20 > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From erosen@cisco.com Fri Feb 7 09:50:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B4E1ACCE7 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:50:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m3D1z3TG_01M for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8A71ACC8B for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8577; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1391795413; x=1393005013; h=from:to:subject:reply-to:date:message-id; bh=7yYFn6Wgo8DNYtjswj/+WKHRNpUS7Pb2BTg1/uYid64=; b=RQuaiUU5OpgOSJZU1VnjarZfFgR2iLQNHD/lEAg6dfsB42MMDfhbmMNy WBzhWzHKfWmGiNB/n6CKmQCPX0JAXVgO8MzLxQdFDeAABomJWUZHURMa/ taI5NVmITA0peIZzzWJ9uP8NNa/Lso93utoCiDnhB6j2DhQrGxWZfPuz4 Q=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,802,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="18782466" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Feb 2014 17:50:13 +0000 Received: from erosen-linux.cisco.com (erosen-linux.cisco.com [161.44.71.43]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s17HoCOb004341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:50:12 GMT Received: from erosen-linux (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by erosen-linux.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s17HoBlZ026887; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:50:11 -0500 From: Eric Rosen To: L3VPN WG Subject: comments on draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03 X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3.1; nmh 1.5; GNU Emacs 24.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 12:50:11 -0500 Message-ID: <26886.1391795411@erosen-linux> X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: erosen@cisco.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:50:24 -0000 I have a few questions and concerns about draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03. - Section 3.3: PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE hosts and keep the list of these hosts up to date in a timely manner so as to ensure the availability and accuracy of the corresponding host routes originated from them. Surely this is a MUST. I don't see how the scheme can work without a responsive and reliable discovery mechanism of some sort. Since the draft does not require any particular discovery scheme, perhaps it should at least characterize the set of acceptable schemes. - Is a PE supposed to discover all the local hosts, and originate a host route into BGP for each one of them? Or are host routes originated only for a subset of the local hosts? I don't see anything in the draft that says how to choose a subset. However, it seems like in the intended use case, the hosts are VMs, and the draft says that a data center can contain millions of VMs. Is each PE going to originate host routes for millions of VMs? If so, I don't understand why the scheme is claimed to be scalable. A solution that relies on millions of BGP-distributed host routes might be expected to exhibit some scaling problems having to do with routing/forwarding table size. (Note that section 3.9 proposes to distribute host routes not only to other DCs, but to "cloud user sites", as well.) The draft talks about the increased path optimality that one gains from using host routes. Well, everyone knows that you get more optimal routing with host routes, but the Internet doesn't run on host routes because of the scaling issues. - I wondered originally whether the intention is that host routes are distributed only in the exception cases, where a VM moves off its "native" subnet. But the draft doesn't seem to say anything like that. It seems rather to be eliminating the traditional notion of a localized subnet, and then discussing how to "fool" the hosts into thinking that the localized subnets still exist. But this raises the question of whether the draft discusses everything that might possibly break. For instance, will DHCP still work? Probably the answer is going to be "anything that doesn't work any more isn't needed in the DC environment". Maybe the draft just needs to state its applicability restrictions more clearly. - To provide good scaling, one needs to consider not only the number of VMs, but the rate of movement. How many VMs per second move from one DC to another, how many VMs per second are created, how many destroyed? These rates will have considerable impact on the control plane. This issue isn't even mentioned in the draft. - If a PE originates a host route, I don't see anything in the draft that will cause the host route to time out and be withdrawn if the host disappears. (There is discussion of what to do if the host shows up somewhere else, but I didn't see any discussion of what to do if the host just disappears altogether.) Surely a scheme based on host routes for movable hosts needs some sort of 'garbage collection'. - The draft suggests that if a PE, say PE1, has originated a host route for host H, and then PE1 sees a host route for H from another PE, say PE2, that PE1 should try to figure out whether H is still local, and withdraw the route if it concludes that H is no longer local. I believe this presumes that all VRFs have unique RDs; that should be stated. (Otherwise a route reflector might not forward all the routes.) Suppose PE1 sees a host route for H from PE2, but PE1 then concludes that H is still local. Is the local route to be considered preferable? Does it install the BGP route from PE2, but not issue the proxy ARP responses? The draft should state the procedures for this case. What if there is a local BGP route for PE2, (say, from a CE router), but the BGP decision process chooses the remote route? - It seems to me that the scheme does not work at all if a single site is attached to two PEs, UNLESS those PEs negotiate some sort of primary/secondary relationship. The draft does mention this: "In the scenario where a given VPN site (i.e., a data center) is multi-homed to more than one PE router via an Ethernet switch or an Ethernet network, Virtual Router Redundancy Protocol (VRRP) [RFC5798] is usually enabled on these PE routers. In this case, only the PE router being elected as the VRRP Master is allowed to perform the ARP/ND proxy function." But I'm not sure what to make of the "usually". The draft does not say that its applicability is restricted to the cases where either (a) a site attaches only to a single PE, or (b) the site attaches to two PEs that are running VRRP with each other. So we need to examine what will happen if the site attaches to two PEs that are not running VRRP. Suppose Site-1 has Host H-1, and attaches to PE-11 and PE-12. Site-2 has host H-2, and attaches to PE-2. Suppose further that H-1 and H-2 have addresses "in the same subnet". PE-2 discovers the presence of H-2, and so distributes a host route for it; PE-11 and PE-12 import this route. Now H-1 sends an ARP request for H-2. PE-11 and PE-12 both generate a proxy response. That by itself is probably enough to mess up the communication from Site-1 to H-2. But PE-11 and PE-12 will see each other's proxy responses, and hence will both conclude that H-2 is local. So they will both generate host routes for H-2 and distribute them to the other PEs. Now all the other PEs will think that H-2 is reachable via PE-11, PE-12, and PE-2. This will certainly screw up any attempts to reach H-2 from other sites. I think that the draft either needs to state that it is not applicable when two PEs attach to a site (unless they use VRRP), or else some protocol for choosing the "master PE" at a site needs to be developed. - I don't completely follow some of the procedures for inter-subnet routing. From section 3.1.2: "Assume host A sends an ARP request for its default gateway (i.e., 1.1.1.4) prior to communicating with a destination host outside of its subnet. Upon receiving this ARP request, PE-1 acting as an ARP proxy returns its own MAC address as a response. Host A then sends a packet for Host B to PE-1. PE-1 tunnels such packet towards PE-2 according to the default route learnt from PE-2, which in turn forwards that packet to GW." It seems to me that PE-1 will forward the packet according to the routes in its VRF (i.e., PE-1 actually functions as the default gateway), and the packet may or may not actually go to PE-2 and then to GW. If Host B is out on the Internet, and there are Internet gateways at several sites, the one that actually gets used will not necessarily be the one that Host A is configured to use. I'm not sure this is a problem; it could be considered to be a feature. But it is certainly something that the draft should discuss. - If host discovery is going to be done by snooping ARP traffic, and if host discovery is going to cause BGP activity, then we have some scaling and security issues that need to be discussed. By generating a "bogus" ARP response for host H, one can force a PE to originate a host route, and this in turn will cause some amount of traffic to H to be delivered to the wrong site. That is, the effect of a bogus ARP Response is not limited to a particular site. This certainly needs to be mentioned in the Security Considerations section. Further, by generating an arbitrary number of bogus ARP responses, one can cause a PE to originate an arbitrary number of host routes, thus causing an excessive amount of BGP activity. This is an attack vector which also needs to be discussed in the Security Considerations. So I don't think it's true that the draft introduces "no new security considerations". - The section on multicast mentions tunnels, but I think an important issue in multicast is going to be how the PIM Designated Routers at a given site do the RPF determination, and this isn't even mentioned. - What is "VPN Instance Space Scalability"? (I don't know the term "VPN Instance Space".) From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Fri Feb 7 10:43:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613731A020F for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:43:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9tX5EL4uTv0B for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x233.google.com (mail-pd0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F041A01B0 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f179.google.com with SMTP id fp1so3113856pdb.10 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PebrIigAj3P8bTnAoGz+ljkwH62iS9y9vxjdr/XoQjk=; b=Wq+yP//eYo5wXebYz/epB8rlkwStZKFdviPALCepep5agevIkc+LeD/ve9RgYwiGOI 8OCG/UoJ6K67VZBh8migSOqEOHaCZU0SONboEyW32eQDRJicYCCHsSMRCGr4aInI1SfJ xnvb9Den1fqgKWR/vI6l6WSike0RB7UTZ0K53aJsQ9tQbuC18L4rZbPQiv6+9y33udWn RUYIY6iOhPDIrzE75QUV1mci8ODRT+gT4gyedYM9WOMRU1Raf3TmQhEtHmkAxWBroVcv Tff7s/hCvQsy9rID3oJQiq8JII/81Tusa+J00hkSmv7iUNFF58MecMR5AwCeZ49f3bhK YLBg== X-Received: by 10.66.159.233 with SMTP id xf9mr9783128pab.139.1391798585734; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pedros-mbp.jnpr.net ([66.129.239.13]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id xn12sm39446604pac.12.2014.02.07.10.43.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:43:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: comments on draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03 From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: <26886.1391795411@erosen-linux> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:43:04 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7A5AC1D6-E607-481E-8F67-A045E3188016@gmail.com> References: <26886.1391795411@erosen-linux> To: "Eric Rosen (erosen)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: L3VPN WG X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 18:43:08 -0000 Eric, I'd just like to provide some feedback to your comments... no opinion on = the draft. Please see inline. On Feb 7, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Eric Rosen wrote: > I have a few questions and concerns about = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03.=20 >=20 > - Section 3.3: >=20 > PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE hosts and = keep > the list of these hosts up to date in a timely manner so as to = ensure > the availability and accuracy of the corresponding host routes > originated from them. >=20 > Surely this is a MUST. I don't see how the scheme can work without = a > responsive and reliable discovery mechanism of some sort. It is quite likely that the authors are assuming that there is a = management system that creates the "guest" (CE) and assigns them to a = specific host (PE). That management system has to for instance spawn the = guest instance and is aware of the instances network requirements. I don't believe that this document should specify the API used by the = management system to inform the networking component on the host system. >=20 > Since the draft does not require any particular discovery scheme, = perhaps > it should at least characterize the set of acceptable schemes. >=20 > - Is a PE supposed to discover all the local hosts, and originate a = host > route into BGP for each one of them? Or are host routes originated = only > for a subset of the local hosts? >=20 > I don't see anything in the draft that says how to choose a subset. > However, it seems like in the intended use case, the hosts are VMs, = and > the draft says that a data center can contain millions of VMs. Is = each PE > going to originate host routes for millions of VMs? In the context of the document, i believe that a PE is considered to be = the host. But to your point, we have proof of existence that for a BGP speaker to = advertise millions of BGP L3VPN routes is quite feasible. RRs in = currently L3VPN deployments do this all the time. And L3VPN carrier = networks have a higher number of reachable routes than most DCs have VMs = using the tools available today. >=20 > If so, I don't understand why the scheme is claimed to be scalable. = A > solution that relies on millions of BGP-distributed host routes might = be > expected to exhibit some scaling problems having to do with > routing/forwarding table size. (Note that section 3.9 proposes to > distribute host routes not only to other DCs, but to "cloud user = sites", > as well.) The routing / table forwarding sizes in traditional PEs have limitations = that are driven by their design. For instance a PE designed to process = 1T of traffic will typically have to chose a hardware architecture that = limits the forwarding tables to single digit megabytes of very fast = memory. A server that has to process 10/20G of traffic can probably = afford to have its forwarding tables in DRAM. If you allocate 1% of the = memory of a modern server to forwarding tables that would be 1.9G. Scaling is relative. L3VPN as it is deployable today in carrier networks = would not be possible with a device like the cisco AGS+. We have all heard forever that L3VPN doesn't scale... yet that doesn't = seem to deter carriers from using it to provide services to their = customers. >=20 > The draft talks about the increased path optimality that one gains = from > using host routes. Well, everyone knows that you get more optimal = routing > with host routes, but the Internet doesn't run on host routes because = of > the scaling issues. >=20 >=20 > - I wondered originally whether the intention is that host routes are > distributed only in the exception cases, where a VM moves off its = "native" > subnet. But the draft doesn't seem to say anything like that. It = seems > rather to be eliminating the traditional notion of a localized = subnet, and > then discussing how to "fool" the hosts into thinking that the = localized > subnets still exist. But this raises the question of whether the = draft > discusses everything that might possibly break. For instance, will = DHCP > still work? DHCP deployments typically depend on a DHCP relay rather than pure L2 = reachability. Having a distributed DHCP relay is an option. >=20 > Probably the answer is going to be "anything that doesn't work any = more > isn't needed in the DC environment". Maybe the draft just needs to = state > its applicability restrictions more clearly. >=20 > - To provide good scaling, one needs to consider not only the number = of VMs, > but the rate of movement. How many VMs per second move from one DC = to > another, how many VMs per second are created, how many destroyed? The average rates are going to be measured in VM changes per minute or = tens of minutes. In smal clusters (which is where most tools are today) there just aren't = that many VMs nor do they change that frequently. Very very large clusters using proprietary orchestration systems that = have been optimized for dynamic workloads will schedule about a dozen = VMs per minute when very busy. This last case is for people that do = their entire application stack and have very dynamic applications and = are about 10+ years ahead of the general purpose market. Let me put it to you in another way: for a VM to be spawn, there needs = to be a very chattery XML/json exchange to instruct the host to go fetch = a large image (Gigabytes) of data and then start that VM. To move it = is twice the cost. A route update is a very very tiny effort compared to = all of this even if you do not write your orchestration code in = interpreted languages with no concurrency. In general the scale arguments that tend to come up are orders of = magnitude away from reality. > These > rates will have considerable impact on the control plane. This issue > isn't even mentioned in the draft. >=20 > - If a PE originates a host route, I don't see anything in the draft = that > will cause the host route to time out and be withdrawn if the host > disappears. (There is discussion of what to do if the host shows up > somewhere else, but I didn't see any discussion of what to do if the = host > just disappears altogether.) Surely a scheme based on host routes = for > movable hosts needs some sort of 'garbage collection'. The "garbage collection" is the responsibility of the orchestration = system. >=20 > - The draft suggests that if a PE, say PE1, has originated a host = route for > host H, and then PE1 sees a host route for H from another PE, say = PE2, > that PE1 should try to figure out whether H is still local, and = withdraw > the route if it concludes that H is no longer local. That would be unnecessary. >=20 > I believe this presumes that all VRFs have unique RDs; that should be > stated. (Otherwise a route reflector might not forward all the = routes.) >=20 > Suppose PE1 sees a host route for H from PE2, but PE1 then concludes = that > H is still local. Is the local route to be considered preferable? = Does > it install the BGP route from PE2, but not issue the proxy ARP = responses? > The draft should state the procedures for this case. >=20 > What if there is a local BGP route for PE2, (say, from a CE router), = but > the BGP decision process chooses the remote route? >=20 > - It seems to me that the scheme does not work at all if a single site = is > attached to two PEs, UNLESS those PEs negotiate some sort of > primary/secondary relationship. >=20 > The draft does mention this: >=20 > "In the scenario where a given VPN site (i.e., a data > center) is multi-homed to more than one PE router via an > Ethernet switch or an Ethernet network, Virtual Router > Redundancy Protocol (VRRP) [RFC5798] is usually enabled on > these PE routers. In this case, only the PE router being > elected as the VRRP Master is allowed to perform the > ARP/ND proxy function." >=20 > But I'm not sure what to make of the "usually". The draft does not > say that its applicability is restricted to the cases where either = (a) a > site attaches only to a single PE, or (b) the site attaches to two = PEs > that are running VRRP with each other. So we need to examine what = will > happen if the site attaches to two PEs that are not running VRRP. >=20 > Suppose Site-1 has Host H-1, and attaches to PE-11 and PE-12. Site-2 = has > host H-2, and attaches to PE-2. Suppose further that H-1 and H-2 = have > addresses "in the same subnet". PE-2 discovers the presence of H-2, = and > so distributes a host route for it; PE-11 and PE-12 import this = route. >=20 > Now H-1 sends an ARP request for H-2. PE-11 and PE-12 both generate = a > proxy response. That by itself is probably enough to mess up the > communication from Site-1 to H-2. But PE-11 and PE-12 will see each > other's proxy responses, and hence will both conclude that H-2 is = local. > So they will both generate host routes for H-2 and distribute them to = the > other PEs. Now all the other PEs will think that H-2 is reachable = via > PE-11, PE-12, and PE-2. This will certainly screw up any attempts to > reach H-2 from other sites. >=20 > I think that the draft either needs to state that it is not = applicable > when two PEs attach to a site (unless they use VRRP), or else some > protocol for choosing the "master PE" at a site needs to be = developed. >=20 > - I don't completely follow some of the procedures for inter-subnet = routing. > =46rom section 3.1.2: >=20 > "Assume host A sends an ARP request for its default gateway > (i.e., 1.1.1.4) prior to communicating with a destination > host outside of its subnet. Upon receiving this ARP > request, PE-1 acting as an ARP proxy returns its own MAC > address as a response. Host A then sends a packet for Host > B to PE-1. PE-1 tunnels such packet towards PE-2 according > to the default route learnt from PE-2, which in turn > forwards that packet to GW." >=20 > It seems to me that PE-1 will forward the packet according to the = routes > in its VRF (i.e., PE-1 actually functions as the default gateway), = and the > packet may or may not actually go to PE-2 and then to GW. If Host B = is > out on the Internet, and there are Internet gateways at several = sites, the > one that actually gets used will not necessarily be the one that Host = A is > configured to use. >=20 > I'm not sure this is a problem; it could be considered to be a = feature. > But it is certainly something that the draft should discuss. >=20 > - If host discovery is going to be done by snooping ARP traffic, and = if host > discovery is going to cause BGP activity, then we have some scaling = and > security issues that need to be discussed. >=20 > By generating a "bogus" ARP response for host H, one can force a PE = to > originate a host route, and this in turn will cause some amount of = traffic > to H to be delivered to the wrong site. That is, the effect of a = bogus > ARP Response is not limited to a particular site. This certainly = needs to > be mentioned in the Security Considerations section. >=20 > Further, by generating an arbitrary number of bogus ARP responses, = one can > cause a PE to originate an arbitrary number of host routes, thus = causing > an excessive amount of BGP activity. This is an attack vector which = also > needs to be discussed in the Security Considerations. >=20 > So I don't think it's true that the draft introduces "no new security > considerations". >=20 > - The section on multicast mentions tunnels, but I think an important = issue > in multicast is going to be how the PIM Designated Routers at a given = site > do the RPF determination, and this isn't even mentioned. >=20 > - What is "VPN Instance Space Scalability"? (I don't know the term = "VPN > Instance Space".) =20 I'm not sure what is the intent of the draft. I read it as "Proxy ARP is = a useful component" in a DC solution. That seems to be a reasonable statement. As you point out however when = the document attempts to specify behavior that tends to be incomplete = and in some cases incorrect. Perhaps the document should specify less = and just default to the concept of proxy ARP and standard L3VPN = forwarding rules. Both which are well understood. Pedro. From rraszuk@gmail.com Fri Feb 7 10:44:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7871AC7F2 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:44:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0D7aW_I_Th5n for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x22e.google.com (mail-lb0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2DF1A0601 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f174.google.com with SMTP id l4so2944930lbv.19 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:44:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=fnOzlsob3EyWUevelkf2aT9122i40H2DLOqFF22zYlc=; b=SMOSWewujZ17Soxr6hI1PA9OY6cRnse8Ycg/4D2s4E4crkBCtdq5vFgSNka0JCP6Ls N1vI0JkyJGwK093E1qUhFhaFX857DIdwl2kyHUg36+ZPLAn2xO4jFlH/jl3LEPDr4p0P vbyTyGrpCxmqovnBC3y0wMxLV6fa5vFmUVwL7oWT7v8pqmXOvKKvOkgjDysY+B00gmAF TVns6dzj06U7Kc6S5Bez6m3+LlURNFOJnMWpXYQakU12PLmB45kz/PQFrWBNz58xvVIl S9zR6mT3/aYjKG40e2FN4W8ZJDmiCPNGwB3afaaj0vsU5XVhvNLU2FoIftqsJZSwmHpo x9JA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.180.42 with SMTP id dl10mr1388207lac.62.1391798647089; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 10:44:07 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:44:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <26886.1391795411@erosen-linux> References: <26886.1391795411@erosen-linux> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 19:44:07 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: tm3JHCY1NvCz-CQR_6__6-HSx8k Message-ID: Subject: Re: comments on draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03 From: Robert Raszuk To: "erosen@cisco.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11345acaf56e6004f1d55f17 Cc: L3VPN WG X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 18:44:12 -0000 --001a11345acaf56e6004f1d55f17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello Eric, Few comments on some of your points ... - Section 3.3: > > PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE hosts and keep > the list of these hosts up to date in a timely manner so as to ensure > the availability and accuracy of the corresponding host routes > originated from them. > > Surely this is a MUST. I don't see how the scheme can work without a > responsive and reliable discovery mechanism of some sort. > > Since the draft does not require any particular discovery scheme, > perhaps > it should at least characterize the set of acceptable schemes. > When we discussed this point among co-authors such set of applicable schemas could be listed, but it rather a local choice of the PE participating in this VPN model. It can be anything from monitoring GARP messages to instrumentation of the orchestration layer. Yes while in traditional networks that equals management layer and is consider rather bad idea in DC environments it has been made to work reasonably well. Obvious for some services like IaaS it is a must have tool. - Is a PE supposed to discover all the local hosts, and originate a host > route into BGP for each one of them? Or are host routes originated only > for a subset of the local hosts? > > I don't see anything in the draft that says how to choose a subset. > Again if you think from the perspective of DC not WAN this can be for all or for subset depending what orchestration tells PE to do. After all this is orchestration layer which is controlling those VMs and is provisioning networking for it (example neutron in openstack). However, it seems like in the intended use case, the hosts are VMs, and > the draft says that a data center can contain millions of VMs. Is each > PE > going to originate host routes for millions of VMs? > Nope. There is usually more then one PE serving those millions of VMs. Each PE just like in vanilla L3VPN only holds those VPN routes which are needed. It also only originates routes for CEs (read VMs behind it). > If so, I don't understand why the scheme is claimed to be scalable. A > solution that relies on millions of BGP-distributed host routes might be > expected to exhibit some scaling problems having to do with > routing/forwarding table size. (Note that section 3.9 proposes to > distribute host routes not only to other DCs, but to "cloud user sites", > as well.) > This is getting interesting now. Am I suppose now to argue with you Eric that L3VPN is scalable ? You know how it is scalable and in this case just as well as in other work in the same working group [hint: draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-systems] there is always host routes distrtibuted within DC. Inter-DC or DC to user rather always depends on careful choice and when possible aggregation at the gateway. > with host routes, but the Internet doesn't run on host routes because of > the scaling issues. > Well we are not talking about global flooding of host routes so this may be a subtle difference when comparing it to the Internet. Also these days the PEs are a bit different especially their data plane as compared to traditional routers ;) - I wondered originally whether the intention is that host routes are > distributed only in the exception cases, where a VM moves off its > "native" > > subnet. But the draft doesn't seem to say anything like that. Perhaps it should. Good point. discusses everything that might possibly break. For instance, will DHCP > still work? > > Yes via DHCP relay or proxy features. Probably the answer is going to be "anything that doesn't work any more > isn't needed in the DC environment". Maybe the draft just needs to state > its applicability restrictions more clearly. > Well it is hard to describe how one is to build entire DC in one IETF draft ... So only immediately relevant points to the idea at hand are included. - To provide good scaling, one needs to consider not only the number of VMs, > but the rate of movement. How many VMs per second move from one DC to > another, how many VMs per second are created, how many destroyed? These > rates will have considerable impact on the control plane. This issue > isn't even mentioned in the draft. > I do not think that BGP control plane is a problem here. As you know it can converge pretty fast especially its latest multithreaded implementations. The limiting factor here would be the VM data and state replication rate which IMHO would be few orders of magnitude lower then BGP update/withdraw propagation > > - If a PE originates a host route, I don't see anything in the draft that > will cause the host route to time out and be withdrawn if the host > disappears. (There is discussion of what to do if the host shows up > somewhere else, but I didn't see any discussion of what to do if the host > just disappears altogether.) Surely a scheme based on host routes for > movable hosts needs some sort of 'garbage collection'. > Again the same as above. Orchestration will notice VM going down. It will instruct PE (most likely via API) to remove such routes. - The draft suggests that if a PE, say PE1, has originated a host route for > host H, and then PE1 sees a host route for H from another PE, say PE2, > that PE1 should try to figure out whether H is still local, and withdraw > the route if it concludes that H is no longer local. > > I think this section of the draft may need some work. I must have missed it. > I believe this presumes that all VRFs have unique RDs; that should be > stated. (Otherwise a route reflector might not forward all the routes.) > > Suppose PE1 sees a host route for H from PE2, but PE1 then concludes that > H is still local. Is the local route to be considered preferable? Does > it install the BGP route from PE2, but not issue the proxy ARP responses? > The draft should state the procedures for this case. > I would not add any special handing nor any special new procedures for this case. I would just treat this as regular L3VPN PE will handle the two paths for a given net. Choose the overall best and install the overall best in the data plane. It can be local or it can be remote depending on best path criteria. What if there is a local BGP route for PE2, (say, from a CE router), but > the BGP decision process chooses the remote route? > Then all other PEs will also choose the "remote route" hence no issue isn't it ? > - It seems to me that the scheme does not work at all if a single site is > attached to two PEs, UNLESS those PEs negotiate some sort of > primary/secondary relationship. > Two answers to that - excellent question: * In DC most common case is that VMs are served over one PE. Yes I know this is not again to what we are used to in the CE-PE WAN case. But the focus in DC is on making the compute node redundant not single VMs which are running on it. * However if you would have such case of VM attached to two PEs (let's say over a common LAN subnet) it would be regular anycast VPN case where said PEs would advertise the host route independently. For return traffic and the L3VPN side this should work just fine. For host/VM side it is just like the draft says one could use VRRP to select master outbound PE if they are connected over lan or any other alternative (again orchestration :) or just periodic probing. Suppose Site-1 has Host H-1, and attaches to PE-11 and PE-12. Site-2 has > host H-2, and attaches to PE-2. Suppose further that H-1 and H-2 have > addresses "in the same subnet". PE-2 discovers the presence of H-2, and > so distributes a host route for it; PE-11 and PE-12 import this route. > > Now H-1 sends an ARP request for H-2. PE-11 and PE-12 both generate a > proxy response. That by itself is probably enough to mess up the > communication from Site-1 to H-2. Actually not .. this usually works :) > But PE-11 and PE-12 will see each > other's proxy responses, and hence will both conclude that H-2 is local. > So they will both generate host routes for H-2 Well I would not jump to that conclusion. Just presence of learned entry in the ARP table should not trigger the host route auto-generation. In any case even watching GARP may not be widely deployed. I think mainly it will be orchestration layer. Best regards, R. --001a11345acaf56e6004f1d55f17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Eric,

Few comments on some of your points ...

- Section 3.3:

=A0 =A0 =A0 PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE hosts and = keep
=A0 =A0 =A0 the list of these hosts up to date in a timely manner so as to = ensure
=A0 =A0 =A0 the availability and accuracy of the corresponding host routes<= br> =A0 =A0 =A0 originated from them.

=A0 =A0Surely this is a MUST. =A0I don't see how the scheme can work wi= thout a
=A0 =A0responsive and reliable discovery mechanism of some sort.

=A0 =A0Since the draft does not require any particular discovery scheme, pe= rhaps
=A0 =A0it should at least characterize the set of acceptable schemes.


When = we discussed this point among co-authors such set of applicable schemas cou= ld be listed, but it rather a local choice of the PE participating in this = VPN model.=A0

It can be anythin= g from monitoring GARP messages to instrumentation of the orchestration lay= er. Yes while in traditional networks that equals management layer and is c= onsider rather bad idea in DC environments it has been made to work reasona= bly well. Obvious for some services like IaaS it is a must have tool.


- Is a PE supposed to discover al= l the local hosts, and originate a host
=A0 route into BGP for each one of them? =A0Or are host routes originated o= nly
=A0 for a subset of the local hosts?

=A0 I don't see anything in the draft that says how to choose a subset.=


Again if you think from the perspective of DC not WAN this can be for all o= r for subset depending what orchestration tells PE to do. After all this is= orchestration layer which is controlling those VMs and is provisioning net= working for it (example neutron in openstack).


=A0 However, it seems like in the intended use case, the hosts are VMs, and=
=A0 the draft says that a data center can contain millions of VMs. =A0Is ea= ch PE
=A0 going to originate host routes for millions of VMs?


Nope. There is usua= lly more then one PE serving those millions of VMs. Each PE just like in va= nilla L3VPN only holds those VPN routes which are needed. It also only orig= inates routes for CEs (read VMs behind it).=A0


>
=A0 If so, = I don't understand why the scheme is claimed to be scalable. =A0A
=A0 solution that relies on millions of BGP-distributed host routes might b= e
=A0 expected to exhibit some scaling problems having to do with
=A0 routing/forwarding table size. =A0(Note that section 3.9 proposes to =A0 distribute host routes not only to other DCs, but to "cloud user s= ites",
=A0 as well.)

T= his is getting interesting now. Am I suppose now to argue with you Eric tha= t L3VPN is scalable ? You know how it is scalable and in this case just as = well as in other work in the same working group [hint: draft-ietf-l3vpn-end= -systems] there is always host routes distrtibuted within DC.=A0

Inter-DC or DC to= user rather always depends on careful choice and when possible aggregation= at the gateway.=A0
=A0
=A0 with host routes, but the Inte= rnet doesn't run on host routes because of
=A0 the scaling issues.

Well we are not talking about global flooding of host routes so th= is may be a subtle difference when comparing it to the Internet.=A0

Also these days t= he PEs are a bit different especially their data plane as compared to tradi= tional routers ;)


- I wondered originally whether the intention is that host routes are
=A0 distributed only in the exception cases, where a VM moves off its "= ;native"
=A0
subnet. =A0But= the draft doesn't seem to say anything like that. =A0

Perhaps it should. Good point.<= /div>

=A0 discusses everything that might possibly break. =A0For instance, will D= HCP
=A0 still work?


Yes via DHCP r= elay or proxy features. =A0


=A0 Probably the answer is going to be "anything that doesn't work= any more
=A0 isn't needed in the DC environment". =A0Maybe the draft just n= eeds to state
=A0 its applicability restrictions more clearly.

<= /div>
Well it is hard to describe how one is to= build entire DC in one IETF draft ... So only immediately relevant points = to the idea at hand are included.=A0


- To provide good scaling, one needs to consider not only the number of VMs= ,
=A0 but the rate of movement. =A0How many VMs per second move from one DC t= o
=A0 another, how many VMs per second are created, how many destroyed? =A0Th= ese
=A0 rates will have considerable impact on the control plane. =A0This issue=
=A0 isn't even mentioned in the draft.

<= div>
I do not think that BGP control plane is a prob= lem here. As you know it can converge pretty fast especially its latest mul= tithreaded implementations.=A0

The limiting fact= or here would be the VM data and state replication rate which IMHO would be= few orders of magnitude lower then BGP update/withdraw propagation=A0

=A0

- If a PE originates a host route, I don't see anything in the draft th= at
=A0 will cause the host route to time out and be withdrawn if the host
=A0 disappears. =A0(There is discussion of what to do if the host shows up<= br> =A0 somewhere else, but I didn't see any discussion of what to do if th= e host
=A0 just disappears altogether.) =A0Surely a scheme based on host routes fo= r
=A0 movable hosts needs some sort of 'garbage collection'.


Again th= e same as above. Orchestration will notice VM going down. It will instruct = PE (most likely via API) to remove such routes.


- The draft suggests that if a PE, say PE1, has originated a host route for=
=A0 host H, and then PE1 sees a host route for H from another PE, say PE2,<= br> =A0 that PE1 should try to figure out whether H is still local, and withdra= w
=A0 the route if it concludes that H is no longer local.


I think this s= ection of the draft may need some work. I must have missed it.

=A0
=A0 I believe this presumes that all VRFs have unique RDs; that should be =A0 stated. =A0(Otherwise a route reflector might not forward all the route= s.)

=A0 Suppose PE1 sees a host route for H from PE2, but PE1 then concludes th= at
=A0 H is still local. =A0Is the local route to be considered preferable? = =A0Does
=A0 it install the BGP route from PE2, but not issue the proxy ARP response= s?
=A0 The draft should state the procedures for this case.


I would not add an= y special handing nor any special new procedures for this case. I would jus= t treat this as regular L3VPN PE will handle the two paths for a given net.= =A0

Choose the overal= l best and install the overall best in the data plane. It can be local or i= t can be remote depending on best path criteria.=A0


=A0 What if there is a local BGP = route for PE2, (say, from a CE router), but
=A0 the BGP decision process chooses the remote route?


Then all other PEs w= ill also choose the "remote route" hence no issue isn't it ? =

=A0
- It seems to me that the sche= me does not work at all if a single site is
=A0 attached to two PEs, UNLESS those PEs negotiate some sort of
=A0 primary/secondary relationship.

Two answers to that - excellent questio= n:=A0

* In DC most comm= on case is that VMs are served over one PE. Yes I know this is not again to= what we are used to in the CE-PE WAN case. But the focus in DC is on makin= g the compute node redundant not single VMs which are running on it.=A0
* However if you would have such cas= e of VM attached to two PEs (let's say over a common LAN subnet) it wou= ld be regular anycast VPN case where said PEs would advertise the host rout= e independently. For return traffic and the L3VPN side this should work jus= t fine.=A0

For host/VM side = it is just like the draft says one could use VRRP to select master outbound= PE if they are connected over lan or any other alternative (again orchestr= ation :) or just periodic probing.


=A0 Suppose Site-1 has Host H-1, and attaches to PE-11 and PE-12. =A0Site-2= has
=A0 host H-2, and attaches to PE-2. =A0Suppose further that H-1 and H-2 hav= e
=A0 addresses "in the same subnet". =A0PE-2 discovers the presenc= e of H-2, and
=A0 so distributes a host route for it; PE-11 and PE-12 import this route.<= br>
=A0 Now H-1 sends an ARP request for H-2. =A0PE-11 and PE-12 both generate = a
=A0 proxy response. =A0That by itself is probably enough to mess up the
=A0 communication from Site-1 to H-2.

Actually not .. this usually works :)
=A0
=A0But PE-11 and PE-12 will see each
=A0 other's proxy responses, and hence will both conclude that H-2 is l= ocal.
=A0 So they will both generate host routes for H-2

Well I would not jump to that conclusion. = Just presence of learned entry in the ARP table should not trigger the host= route auto-generation.=A0

In any cas= e even watching GARP may not be widely deployed. I think mainly it will be = orchestration layer.

Best regar= ds,
R.

--001a11345acaf56e6004f1d55f17-- From mach.chen@huawei.com Fri Feb 7 17:53:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9521AD7BE for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:53:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKk37HzbJwwg for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085FE1AD603 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BAX12735; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 01:53:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 01:52:24 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.33) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 01:53:09 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.206]) by SZXEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 8 Feb 2014 09:53:03 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIa7PDCioJLFyDkiv3Aw0Iy2KPZqqnUOg Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 01:53:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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YXVsdCB0byB0aGUNCj4gY29uY2VwdCBvZiBwcm94eSBBUlAgYW5kIHN0YW5kYXJkIEwzVlBOIGZv cndhcmRpbmcgcnVsZXMuIEJvdGggd2hpY2ggYXJlDQo+IHdlbGwgdW5kZXJzdG9vZC4NCj4gDQo+ ICAgUGVkcm8uDQo+IA0KDQo= From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Mon Feb 10 02:04:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0808A1A07E4 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 02:04:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id onBCWsaYFKbh for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 02:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABDD1A06BC for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 02:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDK80423; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:02:57 +0000 Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:03:48 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:03:44 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Robert Raszuk , "erosen@cisco.com" Subject: re: comments on draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03 Thread-Topic: comments on draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03 Thread-Index: AQHPJC0bJXeoLlL6RUiYLW7m97ibsJqpmrOAgASq+eA= Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:03:44 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824B81A@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <26886.1391795411@erosen-linux> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824B81ANKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: L3VPN WG X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:04:16 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824B81ANKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Hi Eric,

 = ;

Thanks a lot for your detail= ed comments.

 

Since Robert had given excel= lent feedback to most of your comments in the following email, I will respo= nd to the remaining unsolved comments on basis of this email.

 

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-b= ounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Robert Raszuk
=B7=A2=CB=CD= =CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA2=D4=C2<= span lang=3D"EN-US">8=C8=D5 2:44
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: erosen@cisco.com
=B3=AD=CB=CD: L3VPN WG
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: comments on draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-03=

 

Hello Eric,

 

Few comments on some of your points ...

 

- Section 3.3:

      PE routers SHOULD be able to discover their local CE h= osts and keep
      the list of these hosts up to date in a timely manner = so as to ensure
      the availability and accuracy of the corresponding hos= t routes
      originated from them.

   Surely this is a MUST.  I don't see how the scheme can wo= rk without a
   responsive and reliable discovery mechanism of some sort.

   Since the draft does not require any particular discovery sche= me, perhaps
   it should at least characterize the set of acceptable schemes.=

 

 

When we discussed this point among co-authors such set of ap= plicable schemas could be listed, but it rather a local choice of the PE pa= rticipating in this VPN model. 

 

It can be anything from monitoring GARP messages to instrume= ntation of the orchestration layer. Yes while in traditional networks that = equals management layer and is consider rather bad idea in DC environments it has been made to work reasonably well. Obvious = for some services like IaaS it is a must have tool.

 

 

- Is a PE supposed to discover = all the local hosts, and originate a host
  route into BGP for each one of them?  Or are host routes origin= ated only
  for a subset of the local hosts?

  I don't see anything in the draft that says how to choose a subset.<= o:p>

 

 

Again if you think from the perspective of DC not WAN this c= an be for all or for subset depending what orchestration tells PE to do. Af= ter all this is orchestration layer which is controlling those VMs and is provisioning networking for it (example neutron in openst= ack).

 

 

  However, it seems like i= n the intended use case, the hosts are VMs, and
  the draft says that a data center can contain millions of VMs.  = ;Is each PE
  going to originate host routes for millions of VMs?

 

 

Nope. There is usually more then one PE serving those millio= ns of VMs. Each PE just like in vanilla L3VPN only holds those VPN routes w= hich are needed. It also only originates routes for CEs (read VMs behind it). 

 

 

>

  If so, I don't understan= d why the scheme is claimed to be scalable.  A

  solution that relies on = millions of BGP-distributed host routes might be
  expected to exhibit some scaling problems having to do with
  routing/forwarding table size.  (Note that section 3.9 proposes= to
  distribute host routes not only to other DCs, but to "cloud use= r sites",
  as well.)

 

This is getting interesting now. Am I suppose now to argue w= ith you Eric that L3VPN is scalable ? You know how it is scalable and in th= is case just as well as in other work in the same working group [hint: draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-systems] there is always host ro= utes distrtibuted within DC. 

 

Inter-DC or DC to user rather always depends on careful choi= ce and when possible aggregation at the gateway. 

 

  with host routes, but th= e Internet doesn't run on host routes because of
  the scaling issues.

 

Well we are not talking about global flooding of host routes= so this may be a subtle difference when comparing it to the Internet. = ;

 

Also these days the PEs are a bit different especially their= data plane as compared to traditional routers ;)

 

 

- I wondered originally whether= the intention is that host routes are
  distributed only in the exception cases, where a VM moves off its &q= uot;native"

 

subnet.  But the draft doe= sn't seem to say anything like that.  

 

Perhaps it should. Good point.

 = ;

[Xiaohu] w= ill consider this in the revision.

 

=   discusses everything that might possibly break.  For instance, = will DHCP
  still work?

 

Yes via DHCP relay or proxy features.  

 

 

  Probably the answer is g= oing to be "anything that doesn't work any more
  isn't needed in the DC environment".  Maybe the draft just= needs to state
  its applicability restrictions more clearly.

 

Well it is hard to describe how one is to build entire DC in= one IETF draft ... So only immediately relevant points to the idea at hand= are included. 

 

 

- To provide good scaling, one = needs to consider not only the number of VMs,
  but the rate of movement.  How many VMs per second move from on= e DC to
  another, how many VMs per second are created, how many destroyed? &n= bsp;These
  rates will have considerable impact on the control plane.  This= issue
  isn't even mentioned in the draft.

 

I do not think that BGP control plane is a problem here. As = you know it can converge pretty fast especially its latest multithreaded im= plementations. 

 

The limiting factor here would be the VM data and state repl= ication rate which IMHO would be few orders of magnitude lower then BGP upd= ate/withdraw propagation 

 

 


- If a PE originates a host route, I don't see anything in the draft that   will cause the host route to time out and be withdrawn if the host   disappears.  (There is discussion of what to do if the host sho= ws up
  somewhere else, but I didn't see any discussion of what to do if the= host
  just disappears altogether.)  Surely a scheme based on host rou= tes for
  movable hosts needs some sort of 'garbage collection'.

 

 

Again the same as above. Orchestration will notice VM going = down. It will instruct PE (most likely via API) to remove such routes.=

 

 

= - The draft suggests that if a PE, say PE1, has originated a host route for=
  host H, and then PE1 sees a host route for H from another PE, say PE= 2,
  that PE1 should try to figure out whether H is still local, and with= draw
  the route if it concludes that H is no longer local.

 

I think this section of the draft may need some work. I must= have missed it.

&n= bsp;

[Xiaohu] t= he above is only applicable in some corner case, as mentioned in a previous= email.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 

  I believe this presumes = that all VRFs have unique RDs; that should be
  stated.  (Otherwise a route reflector might not forward all the= routes.)

  Suppose PE1 sees a host route for H from PE2, but PE1 then concludes= that
  H is still local.  Is the local route to be considered preferab= le?  Does
  it install the BGP route from PE2, but not issue the proxy ARP respo= nses?
  The draft should state the procedures for this case.

 

 

I would not add any special handing nor any special new proc= edures for this case. I would just treat this as regular L3VPN PE will hand= le the two paths for a given net. 

 

Choose the overall best and install the overall best in the = data plane. It can be local or it can be remote depending on best path crit= eria. 

 

 

  What if there is a local= BGP route for PE2, (say, from a CE router), but
  the BGP decision process chooses the remote route?=

 

 

Then all other PEs will also choose the "remote route&q= uot; hence no issue isn't it ?

 

 

- It seems to me that the schem= e does not work at all if a single site is
  attached to two PEs, UNLESS those PEs negotiate some sort of
  primary/secondary relationship.

 

 

Two answers to that - excellent question: 

 

* In DC most common case is that VMs are served over one PE.= Yes I know this is not again to what we are used to in the CE-PE WAN case.= But the focus in DC is on making the compute node redundant not single VMs which are running on it. <= /p>

 

* However if you would have such case of VM attached to two = PEs (let's say over a common LAN subnet) it would be regular anycast VPN ca= se where said PEs would advertise the host route independently. For return traffic and the L3VPN side this should work just= fine. 

 

For host/VM side it is just like the draft says one could us= e VRRP to select master outbound PE if they are connected over lan or any o= ther alternative (again orchestration :) or just periodic probing.

 

 

  Suppose Site-1 has Host = H-1, and attaches to PE-11 and PE-12.  Site-2 has
  host H-2, and attaches to PE-2.  Suppose further that H-1 and H= -2 have
  addresses "in the same subnet".  PE-2 discovers the p= resence of H-2, and
  so distributes a host route for it; PE-11 and PE-12 import this rout= e.

  Now H-1 sends an ARP request for H-2.  PE-11 and PE-12 both gen= erate a
  proxy response.  That by itself is probably enough to mess up t= he
  communication from Site-1 to H-2.

 

Actually not .. this usually works :)

 

 But PE-11 and PE-12 will = see each
  other's proxy responses, and hence will both conclude that H-2 is lo= cal.
  So they will both generate host routes for H-2

 

Well I would not jump to that conclusion. Just presence of l= earned entry in the ARP table should not trigger the host route auto-genera= tion. 

 

In any case even watching GARP may not be widely deployed. I= think mainly it will be orchestration layer.

 

Best regards,

R.

 

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824B81ANKGEML512MBSchi_-- From erosen@cisco.com Mon Feb 10 08:38:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511A41A0885 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:38:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1V3u9VuhQ71Y for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BCC1A0861 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:38:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4674; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1392050331; x=1393259931; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:reply-to:date:message-id; bh=HPDiY2CG5AK/nOyiYlHHqaw27MQucHJUbeWEsoru38M=; b=jgpGPqmYQuDqVLxfMfWGfiziYhkKe6jabG/I6ZIaGtdKHmdscchdEkoc AdAkZTd4ByjlpuIzUwQO9SB2m2CYkV9YcOEMeMTDYx/3Vmi+1lfVDlhoI DCx4P8UAoAgvFdQFukzM+nUb907Gkh1GxL8/pPCI/CO7QNHOq2u8mc9K4 E=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,818,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="19287582" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2014 16:38:50 +0000 Received: from erosen-linux.cisco.com (erosen-linux.cisco.com [161.44.71.43]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1AGcoKb020503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:38:50 GMT Received: from erosen-linux (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by erosen-linux.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s1AGcnWV012190; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:38:49 -0500 From: Eric Rosen To: Lizhong Jin Subject: Re: Review of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-02 In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 2014 01:11:59 +0800. <00e601cf1d15$3b7c8a10$b2759e30$@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:38:49 -0500 Message-ID: <12189.1392050329@erosen-linux> Cc: erosen@cisco.com, Thomas Morin , draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet@tools.ietf.org, l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: erosen@cisco.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:38:54 -0000 Thank you for reviewing this draft; I know it's not an easy read! > Section 3.5.2. [3.4.2 in -03 rev] the word "EC" should be expanded when > first used in the document. Correct, will fix. > Section 3.5.2. [3.4.2 in -03 rev] what's the purpose to advertise Extranet > Source Extended Community? I understand the first PE receives the Extranet > Source EC will allocate proper RT to the UMH-eligible route, but what will > other PE do when receiving route with or without Extranet Source EC? Are > they the same? Good question. We were concerned about the case where there is a multi-AS extranet MVPN with "option (a) interconnect" (see RFC4364 section 10) somewhere. In an option (a) interconnect, two PEs are connected via a VRF interface, and each treats the other as if it were a CE. So VPN-IP routes are converted to IP routes and then back again. So in a scenario like: CE1---PE1---...---PE2---(option a)---PE3 The RTs that PE1 puts on a VPN-IP route are stripped off by PE2 when PE2 converts that VPN-IP route an IP route, before distributing it to PE3. If CE1 put an Extranet Source extended community on that route, we wanted that extended community carried all the way to PE3, so that PE3 can put on the appropriate extranet RTs. > Section 3.6. [3.5 in -03 rev] what is the requirement for "extranet > separation", MAY, SHOULD or MUST be used in this draft? From my > understanding, it SHOULD or MUST be used for I-PMSI or S-PMSI (C-*, C-*), > otherwise, the egress PE does not know whether to do tunnel checking. If extranet separation is used, I think that section makes it clear just when the Extranet Separation extended community is needed. I think the draft also makes it clear that extranet separation is "optional to deploy". The draft doesn't state whether it is "optional to implement" as well. At least one of the authors believes that extranet separation is not of much value at all, and is at best an optimization/complication whose implementation should not be required. On the other hand, at least one of the authors believes that there are circumstances in which extranet separation may significantly reduce the amount of multicast traffic tunneled to PEs that don't have receivers for that traffic. > From my understanding, it SHOULD or MUST be used for I-PMSI or S-PMSI > (C-*, C-*), otherwise, the egress PE does not know whether to do tunnel > checking. I assume that by "tunnel checking" you mean "discarding packets that arrive on a tunnel other than the expected one". The use of extranet separation is not a sufficient condition for avoiding tunnel checking, because it does not eliminate the ambiguity described in section 2.2. Also, if an implementation always does tunnel checking, it doesn't have to determine whether tunnel checking is required in some particular case. So I don't think extranet separation should be a MUST or SHOULD, in which case the use of the Extranet Separation extended community is not a MUST or a SHOULD either. > Section 7.5 > It would be valuable to say explicitly when tunnel checking will be > enabled. Section 7.5 should have a pointer to section 2.2, which gives the conditions under which tunnel checking can be omitted. > Section 4.1.2. "If VRF-S does not contain both extranet C-sources and non-extranet C-sources, this condition holds automatically." > Should the above be: If VRF-S does not contain extranet C-sources or > non-extranet C-sources, this condition holds automatically. The condition being referenced is: "Traffic from extranet C-sources MUST NOT be carried in the same P-tunnel as traffic from non-extranet C-sources." I think it's okay as written; unless a VRF has both extranet C-sources and non-extranet C-sources, it can't put both extranet C-flows and non-extranet C-flows in a given tunnel. > Section 5.2.2 "If it is desired to support extranet while also using IR to instantiate the PMSIs, an alternative is to use (C-*,C-*) S-PMSIs instead of I-PMSIs." > Should the above "extranet" be "non-extranet"? No, "extranet" is what is intended. > If it is extranet, tunnel checking is still necessary, then there is still > tunnel type restriction (MP2P LSP could not be used). Please see draft-rosen-l3vpn-ir-00.txt ("Ingress Replication Tunnels in Multicast VPN"), especially section 6. This explains how the tunnel checking works when MP2P LSPs are used as the unicast tunnels. Please let me know if I have misunderstood any of your questions (or if you don't like any of my answers ;-)). From giles.heron@gmail.com Mon Feb 10 11:30:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF51A01F4 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:30:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dRNzMXh53XuO for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f41.google.com (mail-ee0-f41.google.com [74.125.83.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A141A0128 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f41.google.com with SMTP id e51so2706234eek.0 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:29:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pEjgavsVHUust86JDNky3raAMCK4Z4EkpdJN9Mkebrk=; b=O3agL3rLysd3aSZob0gVlNsthI7pCTDUaE0hQVMwikgge4v8mSDHKotj3UhgoeutWJ domK016KrRgJnTlEed4L7INRvNLu3qNypokqwtCUf5dDFVXLHCxGZ933fBy3FcSNqOFV F6+7gPFUQQs8Z/XPF93XggB8n2YXjrI97soJvDpa0ttMGrGTU3BKYnHhhmvMkACv8gwT DVcOuVaj6hOPKF9/wCEbiZYlRcb9CjIYDaeC/0vQFbPdG+4zov6X3bDG48c1pHJfRWNl vvVky+Prg7EbLdbQFhzUnBcbwPU2fOyzL5zsRD5uUbzvKsEsPuvLjeCPmOBruuya7mCr 5Yhg== X-Received: by 10.14.39.3 with SMTP id c3mr38929997eeb.42.1392060586554; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.61.220.57] (173-38-208-169.cisco.com. [173.38.208.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d9sm57983424eei.9.2014.02.10.11.29.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:29:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Giles Heron In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:29:44 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:30:24 -0000 I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a = non-author but name-checked commenter). The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. sorry - just spotted the poll has already closed. On 4 Feb 2014, at 13:35, Thomas Morin wrote: > Hello working group, >=20 > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >=20 > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >=20 > This poll runs until February 9th. >=20 >=20 > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). >=20 > =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any = relevant IPR. >=20 > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from > each author and contributor. >=20 > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an = author > or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware = of > any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF = rules. >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs >=20 > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Mon Feb 10 18:03:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD89B1A065A for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:03:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AYvkp7JUP1Vl for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB0E1A0720 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB42126E8C4A; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:03:30 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_734CF177-2940-4AB4-8152-04726F1CF356"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:03:30 -0500 Message-Id: <6D394923-A599-4ACD-9207-9176B5CBE8CF@lucidvision.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> To: Giles Heron X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:03:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_734CF177-2940-4AB4-8152-04726F1CF356 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thomas,=20 I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. = I think I raised this point when the draft was first presented a while = back, and the numerous other times it has been proposed. This original = issue appears to still exist at the heart of this solution. Perhaps I am missing something, but I also don't see a direct WG = charter item that this document satisfies at the present time. --Tom On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = wrote: > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a = non-author but name-checked commenter). >=20 > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. >=20 > sorry - just spotted the poll has already closed. >=20 > On 4 Feb 2014, at 13:35, Thomas Morin wrote: >=20 >> Hello working group, >>=20 >> This email starts a two-week poll on adopting >> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >>=20 >> Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or >> not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >>=20 >> This poll runs until February 9th. >>=20 >>=20 >> *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that >> applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in >> compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 >> and 5378 for more details). >>=20 >> =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* = please >> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of = any relevant IPR. >>=20 >> The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from >> each author and contributor. >>=20 >> If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an = author >> or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware = of >> any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF = rules. >>=20 >> Thank you, >>=20 >> Martin & Thomas >> l3vpn chairs >>=20 >> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_734CF177-2940-4AB4-8152-04726F1CF356 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+YTyAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZLT0QAL8lArTIeUC9PMZBSbvdihSK BTqkv+vvU58ixuJVnEeOZHc+LNyyyOoHafoXDHiIrGR9H5QVa6o3BSpPOZAaBety 0H0ys9thuFLAkS2/3A59CEz0vyu9ESyO9ZJ/d5oCkuc8lHiRWOt/kO3n8Pkm4hmh kps9j7iDDFGnKt1ELr/Z7m0NLW3EimaMAt1JoOsxMUjutlYYR4dJgJ/FQULVqyy/ tOO/14abUZ7DBPqlF8EiNVIUpvgYJj9EwhLDDXhTETvuK5Vu+qjwMjaZJHGNzpIa ML5RQaiYvzpgEfzLV20CWrvF4Fd++YU3HL7TQoZtgCWN6a7k9j7wREqszW6wYEKB UuSr+fleV+hSpeSTGflTv9n0ZlbcCc+NXlyjHfRkZW2QgfPBtfJaAifcJUV6KA8P MQw6Gv9B+WuC5j8WCFpgiHsZZ8AxFyuhHAnvrukojFsoIPuAVfziyfrdomzrpRlB E9Ym8iLDaod7GVP2qH2MV9qnT0bokq/VK9NYboZYjAoXUdzO/RS93TlhER44/Z0y snE8MOJUBR/JqoZpGaDBvinkmf9VnnJWlSiaRdeLIQOHuk7fybY9Y20x1QaU44n6 OSTS1e/4dCoWokJghkPYRyaWqrcSkAZbViKODyq7cle/fkKnZzCH3TlF76B9SCX8 rilF2ByAbvywG24a53os =d0h3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_734CF177-2940-4AB4-8152-04726F1CF356-- From lizhenbin@huawei.com Mon Feb 10 18:40:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205591A050B for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:40:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ob0wqRz7arGk for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6D71A0724 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDL47575; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:40:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:39:38 +0000 Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:40:33 +0000 Received: from NKGEML506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.72]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:40:26 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: =?utf-8?B?562U5aSNOiBQb2xsIGZvciBhZG9wdGlvbjogZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmly?= =?utf-8?Q?tual-subnet?= Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIbhOSIVbFdGd/Ee8Z5d8Ot33W5qvYYUw Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:40:26 +0000 Message-ID: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D081EA03B@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.76.77] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:09:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.201 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJP1BX8qb1zF for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1961A0766 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDL49764; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:09:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:09:19 +0000 Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:09:28 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.56]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:09:19 +0800 From: Haoweiguo To: Lucy yong , Thomas Morin Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogUG9sbCBmb3IgYWRvcHRpb246IGRyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXZpcnR1?= =?gb2312?Q?al-subnet?= Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIbhO7UQ7QzdvlEq5y7tROk01b5qmvf8AgAirrM0= Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:09:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com>, <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329859@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D45329859@dfweml701-chm.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.22.248] Content-Type: text/plain; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR05MB080; H:BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; CLIP:66.129.241.11; FPR:F6E67C1E.5B3524F9.E5F07186.D8CD6C8A.20066; InfoNoRecordsA:1; MX:1; LANG:en; Received: from mail214-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail214-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1392092711137429_17094; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from TX2EHSMHS019.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.225]) by mail214-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18103DC004F; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.101) by TX2EHSMHS019.bigfish.com (10.9.99.119) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.227.3; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:10 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB080.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.38.17) by BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.255.100.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.411.0; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:09 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.38.16) by BY2PR05MB080.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.38.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.868.8; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:07 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.8.154]) by BY2PR05MB079.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.8.51]) with mapi id 15.00.0868.013; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:07 +0000 From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" To: "l3vpn@ietf.org" , "EXT - thomas.morin@orange.com" Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Thread-Topic: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system Thread-Index: Ac8m4T1Udw9COzEyQKe53NAriN5f4A== Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:06 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-forefront-prvs: 0119DC3B5E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 04:25:17 -0000 I have reviewed draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system-02 and early versions of draft-= marques-l3vpn-end-system. I believe it's ready for the next stage. Jeffrey From rraszuk@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 00:22:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C531A08F0 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WhL4kjdqKTZQ for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DB21A07C5 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f51.google.com with SMTP id c6so5518623lan.24 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=sLMgfgEmihDgdBGinQa9hadaEu0c8j9GEgbOWV8VBvw=; b=sftL7r5aHuU0SjZqFPCH3uwO3Bd1kixsxcutxLhCiljMltSfjAdOUEPMc/XzslwADn e8uM/VRetfQQbpn2gn6qZ6h13b+gZBJ75forxx5G7XcCU+J7VsS0xaDDxaeLXaZvpEFB aVmBhQMTtUzB0KGrUWoIz8hdB/R+wvuhoVBEwn6LegMhQZ02rnTsvJv4QL+h+xrheFbt Rk0sGA3dSXci6/7dKUnyPkUXFXG/HoJ0mJHWq0ddRGKokhMbuz8l07yeT20U2x72oEN9 IHBwKgTze0+l6KJdmWRuSjKZOYOmg3lnMAkw5d2pcHC10ba3UqPQIIUuQPk46s+X0Ibg FJXQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.28.200 with SMTP id d8mr114430lah.59.1392106961502; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:22:41 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: r6RxIH-AZlFAlYFmPLQLCjTRB5M Message-ID: Subject: /32s in DC and BGP From: Robert Raszuk To: Thomas Nadeau Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0158c7c8ee041104f21d2893 Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:22:44 -0000 --089e0158c7c8ee041104f21d2893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? or * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? Just curious .... Cheers, R. > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > wrote: > > Thomas, > > I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. > > On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron > wrote: > > > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a > non-author but name-checked commenter). > > > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting > routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that > passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. > --089e0158c7c8ee041104f21d2893 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<changing subject to reflect more broader= l3vpn related topic>

Hi,

Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly wi= thin contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and= kindly indicate what the real problem is ?=A0

* Which control or data plane element will not scal= e ?=A0

or=A0

* Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ?=A0
Just curious ....

Cheers,
R.<= /div>


>
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>
<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Thomas,

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Gi= les made.=A0
=

On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a= non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting route= rs, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passi= ng /32 host routes around in BGP will scale.


--089e0158c7c8ee041104f21d2893-- From thomas.morin@orange.com Tue Feb 11 00:55:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977FF1A08E4 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:55:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7BH_5HsANX_J for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp05.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997C91A009A for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([2.12.35.158]) by mwinf5d62 with ME id Qwvn1n00H3QirNi03wvnbP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:55:49 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB8F197F51; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:55:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F9E592.5030406@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:55:46 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l3vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet // not closed yet, closing on Feb 19th References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:55:52 -0000 Hi working group, I mistakenly set the closing date for this call for adoption to Feb 9th. It should have been February *19th* (two week delay, as usual). -- This poll is running through February **19th** -- Sorry for the confusion, -Thomas 2014-02-04, Thomas Morin: > Hello working group, > > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. > > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). > > This poll runs until February 9th. > > > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). > > ==> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any > relevant IPR. > > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from > each author and contributor. > > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author > or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of > any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > Thank you, > > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs > > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From thomas.morin@orange.com Tue Feb 11 01:56:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8091A07D2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:56:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.117 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aHqSa7lnftI8 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp05.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD161A06BA for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([2.12.35.158]) by mwinf5d62 with ME id Qxw91n00R3QirNi03xw9Nq; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:56:11 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4A619816C; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:56:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:56:08 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Nadeau , Giles Heron Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050508070308010006090002" Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:56:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050508070308010006090002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Giles, Thomas, I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other ? -Thomas 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: > > > Hi, > > Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP > mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit > more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? > > * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? > > or > > * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? > > Just curious .... > > Cheers, > R. > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > > > > wrote: > > > Thomas, > > I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles > made. > > > > On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron > > wrote: > > > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as > a non-author but name-checked commenter). > > > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting > routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced > that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. > > > --------------050508070308010006090002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. 
What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other  ?

-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk:
<changing subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related topic>

Hi,

Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? 

* Which control or data plane element will not scale ? 

or 

* Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? 

Just curious ....

Cheers,
R.


>
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>
<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote:

        Thomas,

        I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. 


On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale.



--------------050508070308010006090002-- From thomas.morin@orange.com Tue Feb 11 02:06:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66B61A092F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:06:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozJTaTZVU2Jl for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp05.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFCE1A092A for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 02:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([2.12.35.158]) by mwinf5d62 with ME id Qy6i1n00l3QirNi03y6iFu; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:06:42 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D331981AF; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:06:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52F9F631.9060802@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:06:41 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giles Heron Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:06:46 -0000 Hi Giles, 2014-02-10, Giles Heron: > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting > routers, but only for interconnecting hosts) [...] That would indeed be an issue if the document was aiming standard track to address a specific use case including router interconnections, or if the limitation was not documented. But, the document is not aiming standard track, and has a section to document limitations to which the working group may contribute text for this particular limitation. > > sorry - just spotted the poll has already closed. The date had been mistakenly set 10 days too early. The poll is not closed yet. -Thomas > On 4 Feb 2014, at 13:35, Thomas Morin > wrote: > >> Hello working group, >> >> This email starts a two-week poll on adopting >> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >> >> Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption >> or not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >> >> This poll runs until February 9th. >> >> >> *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR >> that applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed >> in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and >> 5378 for more details). >> >> ==> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please >> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of >> any relevant IPR. >> >> The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received >> from each author and contributor. >> >> If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an >> author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you >> are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance >> with IETF rules. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Martin & Thomas l3vpn chairs >> >> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet > From giles.heron@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 03:32:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E211A07E9 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:32:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W3C8A1aqmUMi for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f41.google.com (mail-ee0-f41.google.com [74.125.83.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06C61A06CF for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f41.google.com with SMTP id e51so3044992eek.28 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:32:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rZ8BjE53Y/gj0GiVwXs2kCcYcbl5icehtkdUgjR/ZZI=; b=U82pwsF8zOmh9mUxsr4znaxT+/MI9yp2qq30d1yxwTk4TgOHquyv7K6kiD+2uN8DfX D1KCtvv7xlIymRFW54J9+YatDuXbD3OA1faKZ1avzDwDFF0s/+6tozWCiWP/kR6jbf2k b0Qxk2vQROzvPM5mSXyqm6Hd+DLO1AsCsVtJjR/eAuWqsy/8YBsTabEOJTZYP+2sRTHU e4Ujg7+9r8ytY7txV43ducXK4gAJaYPe4CQnv0arohcdHBbT3WOLuY43PF1X2SguqqGA t3M2dYm+tOLsPSWzHr0mcalyubPvZDlh78X074RObWI2r5sabSmdwiALAYpLtVnt0yq/ Xr+A== X-Received: by 10.14.225.67 with SMTP id y43mr42860225eep.10.1392118320965; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.61.163.98] (173-38-208-169.cisco.com. [173.38.208.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d9sm66192031eei.9.2014.02.11.03.31.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:31:59 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Giles Heron In-Reply-To: <52F9F631.9060802@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:31:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D55314C-DEA5-4D86-A1BB-495E62BAB608@gmail.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <52F9F631.9060802@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:32:40 -0000 Hi Thomas I guess the way I see it is that this is such a big limitation that I = find it hard to imagine anyone deploying this solution. is there any way we could get feedback from some data center operators? = Perhaps we should ask NVO3 for comments? Giles On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:06, Thomas Morin wrote: > Hi Giles, >=20 > 2014-02-10, Giles Heron: >> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting >> routers, but only for interconnecting hosts) [...] >=20 > That would indeed be an issue if the document was aiming standard = track to address a specific use case including router interconnections, = or if the limitation was not documented. But, the document is not = aiming standard track, and has a section to document limitations to = which the working group may contribute text for this particular = limitation. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> sorry - just spotted the poll has already closed. >=20 > The date had been mistakenly set 10 days too early. > The poll is not closed yet. >=20 > -Thomas >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 4 Feb 2014, at 13:35, Thomas Morin >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hello working group, >>>=20 >>> This email starts a two-week poll on adopting >>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >>>=20 >>> Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption >>> or not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >>>=20 >>> This poll runs until February 9th. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR >>> that applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed >>> in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and >>> 5378 for more details). >>>=20 >>> =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* = please >>> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of >>> any relevant IPR. >>>=20 >>> The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received >>> from each author and contributor. >>>=20 >>> If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an >>> author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you >>> are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance >>> with IETF rules. >>>=20 >>> Thank you, >>>=20 >>> Martin & Thomas l3vpn chairs >>>=20 >>> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >>=20 >=20 From giles.heron@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 03:36:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028BD1A07DD for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fQMLLDMExp6E for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-x22a.google.com (mail-ee0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c00::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6617D1A06C5 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f42.google.com with SMTP id b15so3553009eek.1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=prwbDS5IAh1P8V4UbQAo+sjP7mOHdevexBIzWlV556E=; b=mLkCRMZBFBkKdQ74AI4VAcNROjFiAhZVvOpTQ8j25dDaOVaGXlJZwvxVYXX5+3x9IU Y75/yj2VLNU6i8nZ37TBFIO85XaGK3YcX998EFnxnNPmU9hkoabcrctzk5KA2x1xaQY1 oIGJSFIYgdbuESBrEW3iUwaOoQFAtqZphrkQGJBflGEeJoKx+mw8XGnfllFwBSxu/XlZ /5Nah5nDgTeHjkdwTvqeyz5FqvUxVH/I1PWW7ljtgtmjDPOw0QHY4Ey6XcDyiyI3D354 zqDhXpWkKq+a/9quk4KgWNjmHY25zqVsLhj12BQMbNkK7Xw2CjkHEC8fNuv0AsyhpihN nxHg== X-Received: by 10.15.45.194 with SMTP id b42mr2391236eew.103.1392118578496; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.61.163.98] (173-38-208-169.cisco.com. [173.38.208.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k6sm66488826eep.17.2014.02.11.03.36.15 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Giles Heron In-Reply-To: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:36:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4AB2823C-B7A0-4119-ACB1-2FAC69FA1856@gmail.com> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:36:22 -0000 Hi Thomas, There are two key differences between E-VPN and virtual-subnet wrt = scaling: 1) E-VPN supports interconnection of routers. virtual-subnet doesn't. = One of the key use-cases for a multi-point L2 service is to interconnect = routers. 2) As well as E-VPN we are standardising PBB E-VPN in L2VPN. PBB E-VPN = only advertises provider MAC addresses in BGP. Client MACs are = learned/cached in the data plane. Giles On 11 Feb 2014, at 09:56, Thomas Morin wrote: > Hi Giles, Thomas, >=20 > I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: = advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) = in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling = standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. =20 > What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case = but not in the other ? >=20 > -Thomas >=20 > 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: >> >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP = mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more = precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ?=20 >>=20 >> * Which control or data plane element will not scale ?=20 >>=20 >> or=20 >>=20 >> * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ?=20 >>=20 >> Just curious .... >>=20 >> Cheers, >> R. >>=20 >>=20 >> > >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau >> > >> wrote: >>=20 >> Thomas, >>=20 >> I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles = made.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = wrote: >>=20 >> > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a = non-author but name-checked commenter). >> > >> > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From ju1738@att.com Tue Feb 11 03:52:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A12C1A080F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:52:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4FZ8DOrREfUb for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com (nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com [209.65.160.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A741A07FB for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [144.160.229.24] (EHLO alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com) by nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com(mxl_mta-7.2.1-0) with ESMTP id 10f0af25.2abd6164e940.1572936.00-2499.4143330.nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com (envelope-from ); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:52:33 +0000 (UTC) X-MXL-Hash: 52fa0f0108fc4e6b-3d1e0ba79616d4c065e3f87441e532572408f6c8 Received: from unknown [144.160.229.24] (EHLO alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com) by nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com(mxl_mta-7.2.1-0) over TLS secured channel with ESMTP id efe0af25.0.1572922.00-2368.4143290.nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com (envelope-from ); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:52:33 +0000 (UTC) X-MXL-Hash: 52fa0f011f5c5b43-b686da0b5c73fe63c33e6804b6eace8e984c854e Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1BBqTu6030039; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:52:30 -0500 Received: from mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.240]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1BBqNQ0029982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:52:26 -0500 Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAE.ITServices.sbc.com (MISOUT7MSGHUBAE.itservices.sbc.com [130.9.129.149]) by mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:52:12 GMT Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSR9I.ITServices.sbc.com ([144.151.223.56]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAE.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.149]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:52:12 -0500 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: Thomas Nadeau , Giles Heron Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPJs1/PkYkWnvevU24eTN8b/ILH5qv70Cw Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:52:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <6D394923-A599-4ACD-9207-9176B5CBE8CF@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: <6D394923-A599-4ACD-9207-9176B5CBE8CF@lucidvision.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.202.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-AnalysisOut: [v=2.0 cv=N9We4RBB c=1 sm=1 a=dhB6nF3YHL5t/Ixux6cINA==:17 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=tEzsPgcdO3wA:10 a=ofMgfj31e3cA:10 a=WJQb9elWiY8A:10 a=BLc] X-AnalysisOut: [eEmwcHowA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=zQP7CpKOAAAA:8 a=XIqpo32R] X-AnalysisOut: [AAAA:8 a=lwWy0W9Pzt0A:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8] X-AnalysisOut: [ a=z9tbli-vAAAA:8 a=loBJGXkCW9op2cdFkdoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:] X-AnalysisOut: [10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=oAXR_kdF8uMA:10 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=_5UdEqHska5y-Zzh:21 a=FN0g01ZkilvK_gj7:21] X-Spam: [F=0.2000000000; CM=0.500; S=0.200(2010122901)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [144.160.229.24] Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:52:39 -0000 Does the draft insist that all connections from the DC for all VPNs are usi= ng Option A? From the reading of the draft this would seem to be a hard req= uirement to get the needed ARP resolution for a given context.=20 The scalability in terms of number of paths allowed into the VRF/Context is= generally limited across the set of PEs servicing a given PE. This is not = small but represents the aggregate across all VRF sites. If all paths are = host routes on the WAN PE wont we blow past the routing limit and forwardin= g limits? . I think it is important to remember that virtualization is an e= xtension of the traditional WAN VPN, customers want to place apps in their = own and third party DCs,. This does not mean that the traditional WAN links= are no longer there. Jim Uttaro -----Original Message----- From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Nadeau Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:04 PM To: Giles Heron Cc: Thomas Morin; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thomas,=20 I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. I think I= raised this point when the draft was first presented a while back, and the= numerous other times it has been proposed. This original issue appears to = still exist at the heart of this solution. Perhaps I am missing something, but I also don't see a direct WG charter i= tem that this document satisfies at the present time. --Tom On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron wr= ote: > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-au= thor but name-checked commenter). >=20 > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers,= but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 = host routes around in BGP will scale. >=20 > sorry - just spotted the poll has already closed. >=20 > On 4 Feb 2014, at 13:35, Thomas Morin wrote: >=20 >> Hello working group, >>=20 >> This email starts a two-week poll on adopting >> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >>=20 >> Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or >> not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >>=20 >> This poll runs until February 9th. >>=20 >>=20 >> *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that >> applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in >> compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 >> and 5378 for more details). >>=20 >> =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please >> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any r= elevant IPR. >>=20 >> The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from >> each author and contributor. >>=20 >> If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author >> or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of >> any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. >>=20 >> Thank you, >>=20 >> Martin & Thomas >> l3vpn chairs >>=20 >> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >=20 >=20 From rraszuk@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 05:16:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B92F1A00BC for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:16:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0gExT2rwMW-B for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D601A008E for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f51.google.com with SMTP id c6so5813115lan.38 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:16:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=UApurFXrueNhnOH8utUCXhjQvvcrunb78k0xpC2+cks=; b=HSzZRhfwylE32tga6cEYoU1OAfwnJsQIAUND9sBaOKMNTykbHhCQ+7n5ptKajE+ESM eWFQ2f04ltNnVbEgin1yNld2TH6wjVVd1lESi7++5wgyx+CFhp0OPgHm64uocStJIl3f qmFM8WrQbk/Fi+g+7pRrLfXNj4kyWE3dH/wD81vnGQ+8v8EuxqsDSSsnu264SKy8U+gA 6LGcVYqPq2sRkR4gy/+TMMxv9QJ2YdQbZcrB/bokBP9/BTu10SM71KHVzE8QJO76nb2h jxNBAF4ycMQRtjWFJvURQ4XevC00jTteBQXL/Rs0mCbWkz2P35YqdAOaMEJUncJnADno UHQg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.34.231 with SMTP id c7mr1127225lbj.56.1392124570236; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:16:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:16:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:16:09 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: He4Y8LQA_R9Z6ooPGlqJUjC2s-Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Robert Raszuk To: Giles Heron Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93d94d47dfd6604f22142b9 Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:16:13 -0000 --14dae93d94d47dfd6604f22142b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Giles, > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, > but only for interconnecting hosts), What routers are you talking about ? Common DC topology is as follows: | | VM - compute_node - | IP Fabric | VM - compute_node - | Transport only | Gateway - | + | Storage Cluster - | Only when needed | Appliance Cluster - | PE function | | | This draft only provides additional flexibility of connecting VMs together. It does not mandate that entire tenant VPN must use concept of virtual subnet as it is 100% compliant with current L3VPN RFC - it's an add-on not substitute. Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to be sitting on different compute nodes. And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR. Those can be just plain ODMs or OCP blades with pure IPv4 and/or IPv6 transport support running BGP 1/1 or 2/1 or IGP if one prefers it. Cheers, R. --14dae93d94d47dfd6604f22142b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Giles,
=A0
The draft has a major limitati= on (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting ho= sts),=A0

What routers are you talking ab= out ?=A0

Common DC topology is as follows:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
VM - compute_node - | =A0 IP Fabric =A0 =A0 =A0|
VM - compute_node - | Transport only =A0 |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Gateway - | =A0 =A0 =A0 + =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
=A0 Storage Cluster - | Only when needed |
Appliance Cluster - | =A0PE function =A0 =A0 |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0|

This draft only provides additional flexi= bility of connecting VMs together. It does not mandate that entire tenant V= PN must use concept of virtual subnet as it is 100% compliant with current = L3VPN RFC - it's an add-on not substitute.=A0

Of course one may= say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for something in the middle - fa= ir point. But in the same time this is different from prohibiting one to in= ject some host routes and do proxy arp for pair of VMs which like to talk o= n the same subnet but happen to be sitting on different compute nodes.=A0

And while some ve= ndors do fight hard against overlays for tenant virtualization and would ra= ther see all smartness of the networks in TOR I am afraid that this ship ha= s already left the harbor .... In the above VMs are virtualized in the comp= ute's node kernel eliminating any need for big fat and expensive PEs ac= ting as TOR.=A0

Those can be just= plain ODMs or OCP blades with pure IPv4 and/or IPv6 transport support runn= ing BGP 1/1 or 2/1 or IGP if one prefers it.=A0

Cheers,
R.

--14dae93d94d47dfd6604f22142b9-- From giles.heron@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 05:46:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D7D1A01F5 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ignkmrK6vxu for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ea0-x22d.google.com (mail-ea0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c01::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579C81A030B for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ea0-f173.google.com with SMTP id d10so3709828eaj.32 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=S/H+dKTmgNiUUrsGvCSTN7MZ1vwo7HpszRVsAenwlUo=; b=z8w2MPzCvye6aT0u/bG2+9CNqn9vV9fEsazPIZ1+hcB60X3HCQym+XvI2fwlZZ2Mk8 7FlG7Nbtpp+R+tElq1cCG+aOT07ZLrTCBCHOA7UulTrJVaPSwUK5V7aPcogABAAp5pL3 PICxsj+Bf5bfmUpR1XvRS1odckz7FI8t13QwwHl3TZhAuCWx8b12n7a39pGB8Ym22HDL HkyInJVbF/4hi7K6wH4y01WSLFXRvlSD7blrZMDGzSCnoQOvC6mLLHflIHbdcz80H/lv iZllAtG+tLFnGHPWrRnqbqW4sZIdjbTvkwEgjPe1cVO/b0GhEB0oJwOviLOxOP6v3Lw/ EI5g== X-Received: by 10.14.178.1 with SMTP id e1mr3174160eem.101.1392126388976; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7625.cisco.com (173-38-208-169.cisco.com. [173.38.208.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j42sm68153199eep.21.2014.02.11.05.46.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 05:46:28 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Giles Heron In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:46:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:46:32 -0000 Hi Robert, On 11 Feb 2014, at 13:16, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Giles, > =20 > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts),=20 >=20 > What routers are you talking about ?=20 any routers you might want on the subnet other than the default = gateways. For example a customer might want to put a virtual network = behind a pair of VMs. In a L2 overlay (or in any other normal subnet) = those could communicate directly with any other routers on the subnet. > Common DC topology is as follows: >=20 > | | > VM - compute_node - | IP Fabric | > VM - compute_node - | Transport only | > Gateway - | + | > Storage Cluster - | Only when needed | > Appliance Cluster - | PE function | > | | > This draft only provides additional flexibility of connecting VMs = together. It does not mandate that entire tenant VPN must use concept of = virtual subnet as it is 100% compliant with current L3VPN RFC - it's an = add-on not substitute.=20 >=20 > Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for = something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is = different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy = arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to = be sitting on different compute nodes.=20 but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why add = it? There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate = already. I'm not sure we need to invent another (though sure, it's fun = to invent new stuff). > And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant = virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR = I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above = VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need = for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR.=20 thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert. I appreciate it ;) Giles > Those can be just plain ODMs or OCP blades with pure IPv4 and/or IPv6 = transport support running BGP 1/1 or 2/1 or IGP if one prefers it.=20 >=20 > Cheers, > R. >=20 From yakov@juniper.net Tue Feb 11 06:21:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A965A1A03AD for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:21:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jqei7cOwPtBT for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from co9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (co9ehsobe004.messaging.microsoft.com [207.46.163.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97281A03C7 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail195-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.229) by CO9EHSOBE028.bigfish.com (10.236.130.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.22; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:21:41 +0000 Received: from mail195-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail195-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC93940872; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:21:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:66.129.239.16; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:P-EMF02-SAC.jnpr.net; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -4 X-BigFish: VPS-4(zz98dI9371I936eI1432Izz1f42h2148h208ch1ee6h1de0h1fdah2073h2146h1202h1e76h2189h1d1ah1d2ah21bch1fc6hzz1de098h8275bh1de097hz31h2a8h839h944hf0ah1220h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h18e1h1946h19b5h1ad9h1b0ah1b2fh224fh1fb3h1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1dfeh1dffh1fe8h1ff5h2216h22d0h2336h2438h2461h2487h24d7h2516h2545h255eh1155h) Received-SPF: softfail (mail195-co9: transitioning domain of juniper.net does not designate 66.129.239.16 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.129.239.16; envelope-from=yakov@juniper.net; helo=P-EMF02-SAC.jnpr.net ; SAC.jnpr.net ; Received: from mail195-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail195-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 1392128499769638_14817; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:21:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS003.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.241]) by mail195-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3AB1A0048; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:21:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from P-EMF02-SAC.jnpr.net (66.129.239.16) by CO9EHSMHS003.bigfish.com (10.236.130.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.227.3; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:21:39 +0000 Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by P-EMF02-SAC.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.146.0; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:21:38 -0800 Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id s1BELaL28591; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:21:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-ID: <201402111421.s1BELaL28591@magenta.juniper.net> To: Giles Heron Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP In-Reply-To: <4AB2823C-B7A0-4119-ACB1-2FAC69FA1856@gmail.com> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <4AB2823C-B7A0-4119-ACB1-2FAC69FA1856@gmail.com> X-MH-In-Reply-To: Giles Heron message dated "Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:36:14 +0000." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <88784.1392128496.1@juniper.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:21:36 -0800 From: Yakov Rekhter X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:21:49 -0000 Giles, > Hi Thomas, > > There are two key differences between E-VPN and virtual-subnet wrt scaling: > > 1) E-VPN supports interconnection of routers. virtual-subnet > doesn't. One of the key use-cases for a multi-point L2 service > is to interconnect routers. >From draft-ietf-l2vpn-evpn-04: An EVPN instance comprises CEs that are connected to PEs that form the edge of the MPLS infrastructure. A CE may be a host, a router or a switch. The PEs provide virtual Layer 2 bridged connectivity between the CEs. >From the above quote it should be clear that while it is true that "E-VPN supports interconnection of routers", it is also true that E-VPN supports interconnection of hosts and/or switches. Yakov. > > 2) As well as E-VPN we are standardising PBB E-VPN in L2VPN. PBB > E-VPN only advertises provider MAC addresses in BGP. Client MACs > are learned/cached in th e data plane. > > Giles > > On 11 Feb 2014, at 09:56, Thomas Morin wrote: > > > Hi Giles, Thomas, > > > > I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: adve rtising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPN v4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than adverti sing MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. > > What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but no t in the other ? > > > > -Thomas > > > > 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly w ithin contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and ki ndly indicate what the real problem is ? > >> > >> * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? > >> > >> or > >> > >> * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? > >> > >> Just curious .... > >> > >> Cheers, > >> R. > >> > >> > >> > > >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Thomas, > >> > >> I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. > >> > >> > >> On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron w rote: > >> > >> > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-a uthor but name-checked commenter). > >> > > >> > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers , but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 hos t routes around in BGP will scale. > >> > >> > > > > > From rraszuk@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 06:22:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC931A03BF for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:22:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vph1TW4MdQUk for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x236.google.com (mail-lb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8615E1A032D for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id w7so5999621lbi.13 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:22:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZSfBH8E8/igWPYd8fIQ4sJmyMnrsKjr1Sjpu6dH335Y=; b=eENFsfs9Czw2W+EEcJdOaOx5oRQ0BPEeAJgKMQQwfOgWHax5bSeAihAih5RjmOrC+Q 0H67Cj6jwKJrBwO7lvRRxtjIyATXrfWqfJO+Bn0DGMxlSOn+F3gO6K1Vidvkh/djI4Ym ue+eQbWJwA/Hl0wY7v9rLZe0wGAJ3pRDDS6Gymti8ixE6D+09BwO+u+ZZ8yjjm5zfxrk RnGfDrG37Jv0nrwc/b5HyKgr9rN5NInns5KPqAQtPaoMK08947Wz3MAjVVxG7QrDvTQG c67j85rRIQnOW8rvmOGYGcyzbe+1aJ2rNHOMoYxWqN7J24p0uRIAST8zh1iepmR2wxOR 0bIw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.172.8 with SMTP id ay8mr1874879lbc.41.1392128547338; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:22:27 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:22:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:22:27 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6x_aTQGJ2H4WKl1VTH-jf4Gn-UM Message-ID: Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Robert Raszuk To: Giles Heron Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2b3f08bc03304f2222f76 Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:22:30 -0000 --001a11c2b3f08bc03304f2222f76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Giles, > > Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for > something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is > different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy arp > for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to be > sitting on different compute nodes. > > but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why add it? > There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate already. I'm > not sure we need to invent another > And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue that BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is in fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone would desire so). You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the problem. I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher - new development and new protocol extensions are needed to support it. Operating one more protocol is not free too. Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication requirements. > > And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant > virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR I > am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above VMs > are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need for big > fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR. > > thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert. I appreciate it ;) > You are more then welcome ;-) r. --001a11c2b3f08bc03304f2222f76 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Giles,

=A0
> Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no= need for something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this i= s different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy ar= p for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to be si= tting on different compute nodes.

but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then wh= y add it? =A0There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate al= ready. =A0I'm not sure we need to invent another=A0

And that is reasonable discussion to= have here rather then argue that BGP does not scale without providing pain= points or that routers behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind V= M (the latter is in fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if = someone would desire so).=A0

You may be of opi= nion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the problem. I agree they solve th= e problem, but the price is much higher - new development and new protocol = extensions are needed to support it. Operating one more protocol is not fre= e too.=A0

Here we just have= a informational draft illustrating much cheaper option to allow hosts talk= on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I do see this as interesting to= ol to some of VMs communication requirements.=A0

=A0
> And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays = for tenant virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the network= s in TOR I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the= above VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any= need for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR.

thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert. =A0I appreciate it ;)

You are more then= welcome ;-)

r.


--001a11c2b3f08bc03304f2222f76-- From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Feb 11 06:27:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAA01A03CC for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:27:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCVewLJJtbBp for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE821A03B4 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83E626E994A; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:27:56 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4E135133-F2AF-47A7-9DD4-DDB61F7513FA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:27:55 -0500 Message-Id: <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:28:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4E135133-F2AF-47A7-9DD4-DDB61F7513FA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_166F9519-D4FA-4602-BA05-6EF1637A8B72" --Apple-Mail=_166F9519-D4FA-4602-BA05-6EF1637A8B72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Hi Giles, Thomas, >=20 > I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: = advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) = in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling = standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. =20 > What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case = but not in the other ? I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that = BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can = ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become = the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the = approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of = protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without = doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given = past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to = the question of the mechanics of this solution. --Tom >=20 > -Thomas >=20 > 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: >> >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP = mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more = precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ?=20 >>=20 >> * Which control or data plane element will not scale ?=20 >>=20 >> or=20 >>=20 >> * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ?=20 >>=20 >> Just curious .... >>=20 >> Cheers, >> R. >>=20 >>=20 >> > >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau >> > >> wrote: >>=20 >> Thomas, >>=20 >> I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles = made.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = wrote: >>=20 >> > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a = non-author but name-checked commenter). >> > >> > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_166F9519-D4FA-4602-BA05-6EF1637A8B72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. 
What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other  ?

I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution.

--Tom



-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk:
<changing subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related topic>

Hi,

Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? 

* Which control or data plane element will not scale ? 

or 

* Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? 

Just curious ....

Cheers,
R.


>
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>
<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote:

        Thomas,

        I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. 


On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale.




--Apple-Mail=_166F9519-D4FA-4602-BA05-6EF1637A8B72-- --Apple-Mail=_4E135133-F2AF-47A7-9DD4-DDB61F7513FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+jNrAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZZN8QAJqcy8xBSny1Yi1mtM6B5yi7 d8iOGFeRVxC8MG4FRJ2hjLsY3fsAlOMY+SGJd8c+fO5PPbCBdpqTbvqmrjeqUWTj TpmUYUyoMrsmyjFxBYJuz88eir+RrDryh5phVvlu28eq4/OUZUPcPK97aG1Dwqir V+PWCYHE78fbonGZsE/c7zBIPvokSWaMxM1SAegTYSPC9Br1DUOflTnVaHERiWV4 OADO/khrw3QSNTNKKvoqoXRn35Q9IMkyRNeeeEujVt8HZfHFVLNFl68jh8yUadc3 DVylg4w9MwIdhc2cmdmVtnhFEU+uW/Tg1tEAR754sfKp3owsQWAhyu9tz9sr4nIv L8bV04LgNjvnpA6dbTXZWwui2n7VJSfvf2W9Dchtje6anSr4aAvK0nsXMNewOO4R R/LLPEwT4d98ov9m9MK1qQLYebxQxrwhkyNOyQgIIBaSQFWFM4ARDK0dG2SNq44c zPKhG5l7roH1f9Qa5ICMpqemgyZqPYvYxurizHAhnn++EOUGbCWqEFOoAz0hGQI/ xkLa25ixkapZOVUmzIVdH00PCArjoMObWv4tjTljtyvIqqxjyrzTijMP31B1WxCb 0yxP/wBlu0xRUg2pONKqUdkWhVWRJGNMvEDFQ1akoTXI7TdRdsZLXWVt4vuhsMuH vN+zY6SpvtTt+VefdHTc =uzgx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4E135133-F2AF-47A7-9DD4-DDB61F7513FA-- From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Feb 11 06:47:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3A21A0332 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vvZwEoAvo6TM for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31CDE1A0338 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C05826E9AE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:47:36 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FF9989E5-F8B8-41C7-A988-926F2ADF60B6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:47:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:47:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FF9989E5-F8B8-41C7-A988-926F2ADF60B6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6E7B727C-FD6E-4D6C-82AE-51F692ED4CEB" --Apple-Mail=_6E7B727C-FD6E-4D6C-82AE-51F692ED4CEB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Feb 11, 2014:9:22 AM, at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: > Giles, >=20 > =20 > > Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for = something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is = different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy = arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to = be sitting on different compute nodes. >=20 > but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why add = it? There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate = already. I'm not sure we need to invent another=20 >=20 > And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue that = BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers behind = VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is in fact = possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone would desire = so).=20 This is indeed the discussion we want to have here. I don't = think Giles or I were claiming BGP doesn't scale; again, its a matter of = whether or not you would want to send /32s around as prescribed. --Tom > You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the problem. = I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher - new = development and new protocol extensions are needed to support it. = Operating one more protocol is not free too.=20 >=20 > Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper = option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I = do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication = requirements.=20 >=20 > =20 > > And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant = virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR = I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above = VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need = for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR. >=20 > thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert. I appreciate it ;) >=20 > You are more then welcome ;-) >=20 > r. >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6E7B727C-FD6E-4D6C-82AE-51F692ED4CEB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
On Feb 11, 2014:9:22 AM, at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Giles,

 
> Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to be sitting on different compute nodes.

but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why add it?  There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate already.  I'm not sure we need to invent another 

And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue that BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is in fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone would desire so). 

This is indeed the discussion we want to have here. I don't think Giles or I were claiming BGP doesn't scale; again, its a matter of whether or not you would want to send /32s around as prescribed.

--Tom


You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the problem. I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher - new development and new protocol extensions are needed to support it. Operating one more protocol is not free too. 

Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication requirements. 

 
> And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR.

thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert.  I appreciate it ;)

You are more then welcome ;-)

r.



--Apple-Mail=_6E7B727C-FD6E-4D6C-82AE-51F692ED4CEB-- --Apple-Mail=_FF9989E5-F8B8-41C7-A988-926F2ADF60B6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+jgIAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZN9gP/1TgGTcSrb2I80irrJUZjCQF p51Ny4ZBgWRkn00me9HWdeTu8ywN+T1UhJnFG8MldCq63Vtco9GTQeSr+DjgV9rm ukLdzQ6PRpEzwMWLTUW7xMjsgW1865RfCxqrb6OUkE5vpXWlA75wYKcS16vyGBfC o5LxFYhuDeodFvQRZyjOMp5NKotQHULzBD4sfONesds8Q3set2UMcLZVNtQcTEoj PZg/mDVnLYJf6STZxC1bPYEWsnFzWlbYxQKzMZWl+QVpXQhIY3r7CqTk1xEfmHiT wdBVOqz6S79nQ2WE3Cta7UsasxkZ1UfOWoEUiHLXBZ9oPdq4doIap2x5rHamEFn3 O8UHHxUVZGK2P+z2oeIoMt39Ga/kBNm/ENVSQN8whXQuy84aRlekm8fcKXeGMD41 ofbx4+PJVLu//1JfDypi4jHXwIP1hS56q4HDbb3Y9+Xz/s3MI3G9obl/ILDVw60H YRI2eGbK5+81niDofgCmXw8rPxah9GrJsiUk039ic8Nz9WyMQA1+0B6fc7S3O88D gVYAppYO5T3V55H/Lhbgrx8mGPmKMdR5WwXARKSdb03e5SoELGfrQUUi+h6quQA2 wwcBa1OTWLL2R6JrEVLpITndjqOVOPHU11jEIMNlAN7Zh+TvnqtWE8GD1G6yvA7e PCiBx7NUD6RMTKUhdWzo =HXSw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FF9989E5-F8B8-41C7-A988-926F2ADF60B6-- From thomas.morin@orange.com Tue Feb 11 06:58:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FCC1A04E0 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:58:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.883 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P7xsoHmKQ3OR for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp05.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958131A0465 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([2.12.35.158]) by mwinf5d62 with ME id R2y31n0053QirNi032y3Rw; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:58:05 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADC8198DE4; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:58:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:58:02 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Nadeau Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090506060201090401090909" Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:58:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090506060201090401090909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Again, please keep in mind the intended status and the content of the document: adopting it and progressing it as an *informational* RFC does not mean that there is consensus that this approach is the best way, or even a right way, to address a particular use case. As currently shaped, the document does a pretty good job of making this clear. This is a place to document an approach, including its limitations. My take is that we're better off documenting all this, rather than just have this approach deployed with no documentation. -Thomas 2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau: > > On Feb 11, 2014:9:22 AM, at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: > >> Giles, >> >> > Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for >> something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this >> is different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and >> do proxy arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same >> subnet but happen to be sitting on different compute nodes. >> >> but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then >> why add it? There are many different ways those two VMs can >> communicate already. I'm not sure we need to invent another >> >> >> And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue that >> BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers >> behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is >> in fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone >> would desire so). > > This is indeed the discussion we want to have here. I don't think > Giles or I were claiming BGP doesn't scale; again, its a matter of > whether or not you would want to send /32s around as prescribed. > > --Tom > > >> You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the >> problem. I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher >> - new development and new protocol extensions are needed to support >> it. Operating one more protocol is not free too. >> >> Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper >> option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. >> I do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication >> requirements. >> >> > And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for >> tenant virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the >> networks in TOR I am afraid that this ship has already left the >> harbor .... In the above VMs are virtualized in the compute's >> node kernel eliminating any need for big fat and expensive PEs >> acting as TOR. >> >> thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert. I appreciate it ;) >> >> >> You are more then welcome ;-) >> >> r. >> >> > --------------090506060201090401090909 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi,

Again, please keep in mind the intended status and the content of the document: adopting it and progressing it as an *informational* RFC does not mean that there is consensus that this approach is the best way, or even a right way, to address a particular use case.  As currently shaped, the document does a pretty good job of making this clear. This is a place to document an approach, including its limitations.

My take is that we're better off documenting all this, rather than just have this approach deployed with no documentation.

-Thomas


2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau:

On Feb 11, 2014:9:22 AM, at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Giles,

 
> Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to be sitting on different compute nodes.

but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why add it?  There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate already.  I'm not sure we need to invent another 

And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue that BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is in fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone would desire so). 

This is indeed the discussion we want to have here. I don't think Giles or I were claiming BGP doesn't scale; again, its a matter of whether or not you would want to send /32s around as prescribed.

--Tom


You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the problem. I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher - new development and new protocol extensions are needed to support it. Operating one more protocol is not free too. 

Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication requirements. 

 
> And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR.

thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert.  I appreciate it ;)

You are more then welcome ;-)

r.




--------------090506060201090401090909-- From thomas.morin@orange.com Tue Feb 11 07:04:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36FDF1A0376 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:04:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.117 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6YJ6WBW2L1ZH for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp05.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.127]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EF61A032D for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([2.12.35.158]) by mwinf5d62 with ME id R34g1n00N3QirNi0334gKE; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:04:40 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47DD198E1D; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:04:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52FA3C07.5060202@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:04:39 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Nadeau Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000004010300040002050506" Cc: L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:04:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000004010300040002050506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Thomas, 2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau: >> I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional >> question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 >> /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from >> a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. >> What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case >> but not in the other ? > > I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP > will not scale well; (Giles initial point, that you supported, was a that he was unconvinced it would scale.) > as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of > routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of > the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want > to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there > are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also > question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational > feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question > of the mechanics of this solution. This discussion about putting /32s in BGP is absolutely not specific to draft-..-virtual-subnet (see E-VPN, end-system l3vpn). -Thomas 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP >>> mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit >>> more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? >>> >>> * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? >>> >>> or >>> >>> * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? >>> >>> Just curious .... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> R. >>> >>> >>> > >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau >>> > >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thomas, >>> >>> I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point >>> Giles made. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron >>> > wrote: >>> >>> > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking >>> as a non-author but name-checked commenter). >>> > >>> > The draft has a major limitation (no support for >>> interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), >>> and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP >>> will scale. >>> >>> >>> >> > > --------------000004010300040002050506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Thomas,

2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau:
I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. 
What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other  ?

I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well;

(Giles initial point, that you supported, was a that he was unconvinced it would scale.)

as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution.

This discussion about putting /32s in BGP is absolutely not specific to draft-..-virtual-subnet (see E-VPN, end-system l3vpn).

-Thomas



2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk:
<changing subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related topic>

Hi,

Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? 

* Which control or data plane element will not scale ? 

or 

* Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? 

Just curious ....

Cheers,
R.


>
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>
<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote:

        Thomas,

        I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. 


On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale.






--------------000004010300040002050506-- From giles.heron@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 07:16:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4CE1A0386 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:16:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7_GbZBvzJQa for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ea0-x22a.google.com (mail-ea0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4013:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860D61A0326 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ea0-f170.google.com with SMTP id g15so1961168eak.15 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:16:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=cxsd7gz/OgcIblNA0ZKqGE/9+YfyQ/x9vvdrbYyjc18=; b=ldMykmPVgVUzmCLXYA3pfuAmnSeQUc2BLu4gJiFEhIWXMQ8wNlV+Ff+VEK5tnz0ikb eg0exUa2K03UHRQSkH4xIXu+AXZXjzpfNyGV205t5O5qfmOLxQ9issP5aMQfFqY1YIjm v5IT6yZgn/EVXd0EO4I/o+tgZKYddG28Kyp/vvivX7HRyF7qWGafeSHknWEM3TPTx07L M3OgmLazZyqfcBNZ8KGczwSWjPUdqTngKYmSXKb4U25D3/xscI9C7VHUSMaTLoNGAiZJ aNqcb6XJGMlDM0mhg+Xk6vmKKqjNzV3qPPuRDTbPM/cxcL+qznO7u4wBkRwOkckYel8P mxew== X-Received: by 10.15.43.141 with SMTP id x13mr44164397eev.35.1392131805596; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7625.cisco.com (173-38-208-169.cisco.com. [173.38.208.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s46sm68130153eeb.0.2014.02.11.07.16.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:16:45 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Giles Heron In-Reply-To: <201402111421.s1BELaL28591@magenta.juniper.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:16:43 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <4AB2823C-B7A0-4119-ACB1-2FAC69FA1856@gmail.com> <201402111421.s1BELaL28591@magenta.juniper.net> To: Yakov Rekhter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:16:49 -0000 Hi Yakov, On 11 Feb 2014, at 14:21, Yakov Rekhter wrote: > Giles, >=20 >> Hi Thomas, >>=20 >> There are two key differences between E-VPN and virtual-subnet wrt = scaling: >>=20 >> 1) E-VPN supports interconnection of routers. virtual-subnet >> doesn't. One of the key use-cases for a multi-point L2 service >> is to interconnect routers. >=20 > =46rom draft-ietf-l2vpn-evpn-04: > An EVPN instance comprises > CEs that are connected to PEs that form the edge of the MPLS > infrastructure. A CE may be a host, a router or a switch. The PEs > provide virtual Layer 2 bridged connectivity between the CEs. >=20 > =46rom the above quote it should be clear that while it is true that > "E-VPN supports interconnection of routers", it is also true that > E-VPN supports interconnection of hosts and/or switches. Indeed. And I wasn't claiming that it didn't. What I was trying to make clear was that E-VPN provides two ways to = scale that are missing in virtual-subnet: 1) you can use it to interconnect routers. So you get one FIB entry per = router. 2) you can use it to interconnect PBB switches. So you get one FIB = entry per switch. AFAIK virtual-subnet only provides the model where you interconnect = hosts and get one FIB entry per host. Giles > Yakov. >=20 >>=20 >> 2) As well as E-VPN we are standardising PBB E-VPN in L2VPN. PBB >> E-VPN only advertises provider MAC addresses in BGP. Client MACs >> are learned/cached in th e data plane. >>=20 >> Giles >>=20 >> On 11 Feb 2014, at 09:56, Thomas Morin = wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi Giles, Thomas, >>>=20 >>> I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional = question: adve > rtising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) = in BGP VPN > v4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint = than adverti > sing MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. =20 >>> What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case = but no > t in the other ? >>>=20 >>> -Thomas >>>=20 >>> 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: >>>> >>>>=20 >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP = mainly w > ithin contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more = precise and ki > ndly indicate what the real problem is ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> * Which control or data plane element will not scale ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> or=20 >>>>=20 >>>> * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Just curious .... >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> R. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau >>>>>=20 >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Thomas, >>>>=20 >>>> I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles = made.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = w > rote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a = non-a > uthor but name-checked commenter). >>>>>=20 >>>>> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers > , but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 hos > t routes around in BGP will scale. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Feb 11 07:17:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BD81A04DC for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:17:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cyD3g58IfbwN for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339981A050B for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E6B26E9C11; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:17:33 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A292DB33-7319-4B61-A81A-97193F01811C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:17:32 -0500 Message-Id: <434FDF3E-2368-465E-A7D0-351024D34EA1@lucidvision.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:17:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A292DB33-7319-4B61-A81A-97193F01811C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D31544DD-75EF-4337-81A2-859E4EBB9D0A" --Apple-Mail=_D31544DD-75EF-4337-81A2-859E4EBB9D0A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Hi, >=20 > Again, please keep in mind the intended status and the content of the = document: adopting it and progressing it as an *informational* RFC does = not mean that there is consensus that this approach is the best way, or = even a right way, to address a particular use case. As currently = shaped, the document does a pretty good job of making this clear. This = is a place to document an approach, including its limitations.=20 >=20 > My take is that we're better off documenting all this, rather than = just have this approach deployed with no documentation. Documentation is fine, but if it comes from a WG isn't it then = an endorsed approach unless some language is explicitly added to the = draft?=20 --Tom >=20 > -Thomas >=20 >=20 > 2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau: >>=20 >> On Feb 11, 2014:9:22 AM, at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk = wrote: >>=20 >>> Giles, >>>=20 >>> =20 >>> > Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for = something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is = different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy = arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to = be sitting on different compute nodes. >>>=20 >>> but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why = add it? There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate = already. I'm not sure we need to invent another=20 >>>=20 >>> And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue = that BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers = behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is in = fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone would = desire so).=20 >>=20 >> This is indeed the discussion we want to have here. I don't think = Giles or I were claiming BGP doesn't scale; again, its a matter of = whether or not you would want to send /32s around as prescribed. >>=20 >> --Tom >>=20 >>=20 >>> You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the = problem. I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher - = new development and new protocol extensions are needed to support it. = Operating one more protocol is not free too.=20 >>>=20 >>> Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper = option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I = do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication = requirements.=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>> > And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant = virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR = I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above = VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need = for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR. >>>=20 >>> thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert. I appreciate it ;) >>>=20 >>> You are more then welcome ;-) >>>=20 >>> r. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_D31544DD-75EF-4337-81A2-859E4EBB9D0A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi,

Again, please keep in mind the intended status and the content of the document: adopting it and progressing it as an *informational* RFC does not mean that there is consensus that this approach is the best way, or even a right way, to address a particular use case.  As currently shaped, the document does a pretty good job of making this clear. This is a place to document an approach, including its limitations.

My take is that we're better off documenting all this, rather than just have this approach deployed with no documentation.

Documentation is fine, but if it comes from a WG isn't it then an endorsed approach unless some language is explicitly added to the draft? 

--Tom



-Thomas


2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau:

On Feb 11, 2014:9:22 AM, at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Giles,

 
> Of course one may say that I can use L3VPN or L2VPN no need for something in the middle - fair point. But in the same time this is different from prohibiting one to inject some host routes and do proxy arp for pair of VMs which like to talk on the same subnet but happen to be sitting on different compute nodes.

but as you yourself have said - if there's no need for it then why add it?  There are many different ways those two VMs can communicate already.  I'm not sure we need to invent another 

And that is reasonable discussion to have here rather then argue that BGP does not scale without providing pain points or that routers behind VM need to talk L2 to other routers behind VM (the latter is in fact possible via overlay over overlay today anyway if someone would desire so). 

This is indeed the discussion we want to have here. I don't think Giles or I were claiming BGP doesn't scale; again, its a matter of whether or not you would want to send /32s around as prescribed.

--Tom


You may be of opinion that current EVPN or PBB EVPN solve the problem. I agree they solve the problem, but the price is much higher - new development and new protocol extensions are needed to support it. Operating one more protocol is not free too. 

Here we just have a informational draft illustrating much cheaper option to allow hosts talk on the same subnet cross overlay boundary. I do see this as interesting tool to some of VMs communication requirements. 

 
> And while some vendors do fight hard against overlays for tenant virtualization and would rather see all smartness of the networks in TOR I am afraid that this ship has already left the harbor .... In the above VMs are virtualized in the compute's node kernel eliminating any need for big fat and expensive PEs acting as TOR.

thanks for putting words in my mouth Robert.  I appreciate it ;)

You are more then welcome ;-)

r.





--Apple-Mail=_D31544DD-75EF-4337-81A2-859E4EBB9D0A-- --Apple-Mail=_A292DB33-7319-4B61-A81A-97193F01811C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+j8NAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZCP4QAJPu5yaQlmYvCdI9y5WBUNtM EEvqerS8Ts208YVNMgaJS1tV9ndfcjaLSTVglf3hSzxvt69lonu/tRGI6edKbGQN iOxd6PA7jKdji2WLHA9042LTPClgmdjv6rzLHcwan7svrdwWunUYT0oZZpAlxNNE q0BoNoikUn5cFsAPCRJ4T0jAvJ2VyZMXKtBCCGHybtqoY7mni/SW+ju0PXQoxpwT 7BftC+Xb2Y5tvtrpfmvOV14TM8V5Z8cUvY2/sf5E0TswnRorz2JtQS21/yPYNiBZ 2JYQu9EDCQyTexOyAWIsxqBuI/mifSV/G1ByuzQEz52rMuLc2IrsZCAxhDh6jODw 2Mj4vG2oK4wW5AYAe8+YlrgQ6OLXlfhGIa8YDFs7++iVXpFY20AjVUbr7jwg4BD/ wx9YTSQOzw4ijFTIUJAMgxTWM5c0bo1LNY6FkxnE9DaO6c3xTdoYrjDSxz5lp8sa MEWQdX8WVkB6uMIo9E5l2pqdpCGNqPSiZmdnOink4q9BJruzpAk+sFLH+Dn1QLIU 0VJBmtfmr0R+XtJyWGFok14q5OD94BoAUxtn1hj8Q3qWgL+/0xyZ4kMb7gmpahTG DxDwJCjsf3ntoU6KHjWT9JFToWJNmqUOAJsqnEx6Ty/ij49N/Tds5E7jE6pCrtaQ BDrX50db2fmpBKrQ1wyE =+UOS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A292DB33-7319-4B61-A81A-97193F01811C-- From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Feb 11 07:19:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0E91A0376 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zuX1vGECOCKz for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCFD1A01A8 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 07:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60DD26E9C3C; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:19:10 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2400803D-BB04-4810-B5F3-F3EC5F22F8B8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: <52FA3C07.5060202@orange.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:19:10 -0500 Message-Id: <08BB9E75-14A1-450E-9634-A48775D8747B@lucidvision.com> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <52FA3C07.5060202@orange.com> To: Thomas Morin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:19:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2400803D-BB04-4810-B5F3-F3EC5F22F8B8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B443E077-18CB-45F3-8B3F-3DBDFFF9BBDB" --Apple-Mail=_B443E077-18CB-45F3-8B3F-3DBDFFF9BBDB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 11, 2014:10:04 AM, at 10:04 AM, Thomas Morin = wrote: > Hi Thomas, >=20 > 2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau: >>> I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional = question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 = /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a = scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. =20= >>> What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case = but not in the other ? >>=20 >> I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP = will not scale well; >=20 > (Giles initial point, that you supported, was a that he was = unconvinced it would scale.) Anyways, MY point then is not around BGP per se; its the = approach. *) >> as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of = routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the = protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be = shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are = other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question = the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 = for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of = this solution. >=20 > This discussion about putting /32s in BGP is absolutely not specific = to draft-..-virtual-subnet (see E-VPN, end-system l3vpn). Cool. --Tom >=20 > -Thomas >=20 >=20 >=20 > 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: >>>> >>>>=20 >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP = mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more = precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> * Which control or data plane element will not scale ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> or=20 >>>>=20 >>>> * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Just curious .... >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> R. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Thomas, >>>>=20 >>>> I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles = made.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as = a non-author but name-checked commenter). >>>> > >>>> > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_B443E077-18CB-45F3-8B3F-3DBDFFF9BBDB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On Feb 11, 2014:10:04 AM, at 10:04 AM, Thomas Morin <thomas.morin@orange.com> wrote:

Hi Thomas,

2014-02-11, Thomas Nadeau:
I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. 
What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other  ?

I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well;

(Giles initial point, that you supported, was a that he was unconvinced it would scale.)

Anyways, MY point then is not around BGP per se; its the approach. *)

as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution.

This discussion about putting /32s in BGP is absolutely not specific to draft-..-virtual-subnet (see E-VPN, end-system l3vpn).

Cool.

--Tom



-Thomas



2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk:
<changing subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related topic>

Hi,

Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? 

* Which control or data plane element will not scale ? 

or 

* Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? 

Just curious ....

Cheers,
R.


>
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>
<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote:

        Thomas,

        I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. 


On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale.







--Apple-Mail=_B443E077-18CB-45F3-8B3F-3DBDFFF9BBDB-- --Apple-Mail=_2400803D-BB04-4810-B5F3-F3EC5F22F8B8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+j9uAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZU9QP/jJ3zOySHjz1OzpX1NTxymYW Tv8x/jEuaQzUUe+e3nvAFVyjen8CbG/Pv6tVY05DBw4cIl086OZzuLh7JqlggPJ3 EYIVST+L6yVP96EbvHyE5Uqh9h2hHqqPAR+T7KqDV7caVLRA5hs+OqjRfE/Cnwn8 +a+ajRLXQCzM6rBbm/3UIRixbBsRL67RhDmwWbQWMK8qybC4Ui+Qnkbsde9d3atM vX5MOWgCcZEK2pRxSFjILZjzccDMayCD1nsWGgzhN4GpmdDvmRZkGhV8tZjn+Ppx Taz7Y7U+QQ3T6JmB/ePyTNWpO9AEtCpoSnZH5rnNu02ujOXthyqNp3433zubs3kx 3QuDID1VNkD90IFDLQLlbzbcpOesHEPFm+nJhwQpSmPTXJYUYSuiWFy8mx5U0Dus gCBaZw/naU1JtGUiwrzJ7tgrBQ2UheRvoa/ZZDn8RyJ8zjtAp0qH6szw61yz2kUh Xf2ZlWx/AP/banN7u8rtftdn0IR0QJNJW7rs6XkM4yhstNPR6ucnWOtBdcWpfxFW 9Q+4oEQrxeaj4cqpOGeKwJaqGlN0rAz9x39GTAMr1dJAn84LYrq/RbPFDuE3ph13 X57Kkjr1cvHJgkV3+Dvd7HwMtXqmYuVRncjRPz+ffWtXF4pdxvIrdM3zonRsKvx4 iIEjWmrZy2bnY07/QZs8 =0Bsu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2400803D-BB04-4810-B5F3-F3EC5F22F8B8-- From shares@ndzh.com Tue Feb 11 08:01:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377581A050A for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:01:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LX4X12f4zlzU for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BE31A01FD for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:01:30 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=64.112.195.202; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Thomas Nadeau'" , "'Thomas Morin'" References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> Subject: RE: /32s in DC and BGP Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:00:18 -0500 Message-ID: <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0234_01CF2718.748F4B00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIaGV2Ids5N72j3vr3E0uQQ3tOo0wMCZs/AATAGvniZ+K8F0A== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:06:05 -0800 Cc: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org, 'L3VPN' , 'Robert Raszuk' X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:01:34 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0234_01CF2718.748F4B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom: The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with "what makes business sense" (aka Shakespere in BGP) instead the "purist" mandate on what BGP can do. As to Data Center's use of the BGP, I suggest you review the draft: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/ Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN. IMHO documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers. The IDR WG has moved on from the "purist" view to allowing DCs private AS space and allowing link-state information to be carried in BGP. These usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Internet. If you feel host routes should not be carried, please comment to idr@ietf.org on draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP Info in BGP. It is being suggest for early allocation of code points - so it vital to make your concerns known. Sue Hares From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:28 AM To: Thomas Morin Cc: Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP Hi Giles, Thomas, I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other ? I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution. --Tom -Thomas 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: Hi, Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? or * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? Just curious .... Cheers, R. > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > wrote: Thomas, I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron wrote: > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter). > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. ------=_NextPart_000_0234_01CF2718.748F4B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tom:

 

The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved = with “what makes business sense” (aka Shakespere in BGP) =  instead the “purist” mandate on what BGP can do. =

 

As to Data Center’s use of the BGP, I suggest you review the = draft:

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/=

 

Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. =  Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN.  IMHO = documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and = implementers.   

 

The IDR WG has moved on from the “purist” view to = allowing DCs private AS space and allowing link-state information to be = carried in BGP.    These usage are not Internet-wide = usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Internet.  If you feel = host routes should not be carried, please comment to idr@ietf.org  on = draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP  Info in = BGP.  It is being suggest for early allocation of code points = – so it vital to make your concerns known. =

 

Sue Hares

 

 

From:= = Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com]
Sent: Tuesday, = February 11, 2014 9:28 AM
To: Thomas Morin
Cc: Giles = Heron; Robert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; = L3VPN
Subject: Re: /32s in DC and = BGP

 

 

 

Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's = questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non = aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 = routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than = advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. 
What would be = the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the = other  ?

 

        &n= bsp;   I think you are missing the point that was = raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly = shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff = as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The = question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around = /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that = work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a = Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but = that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this = solution.

 

        &n= bsp;   --Tom

 




-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert = Raszuk:

<changing = subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related = topic>

 

Hi,

 

Could those who claim that that = sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone = environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate = what the real problem is ? 

 

* Which control or data plane = element will not scale ? 

 

or 

 

* Which part of BGP state machine = will not scale ? 

 

Just curious = ....

 

Cheers,
R.

 

 

> =

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at = 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau

> =

<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> = wrote:


      =   Thomas,

        I too object to it's = adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. 

 

 

On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = <giles.heron@gmail.com> = wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item = (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> = The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will = scale.

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0234_01CF2718.748F4B00-- From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Feb 11 08:57:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8750F1A062F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:57:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TY4S5nutemxY for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF601A0623 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EA126E9FEE; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:57:41 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_44A35A53-F5CC-444C-8C3C-CB92CFD897DC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:57:41 -0500 Message-Id: References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> To: Susan Hares X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Thomas Morin , draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org, L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:57:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_44A35A53-F5CC-444C-8C3C-CB92CFD897DC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_973B6874-A402-4124-B193-F7283677DCB2" --Apple-Mail=_973B6874-A402-4124-B193-F7283677DCB2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I am still not convinced that shipping around what effectively = is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good idea.=20 There just seem to be better alternatives that have been pointed out = that scale well. I also do not think it is=20 a purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs are = doing today for routes, and its not /32s. I will also point out that one of the advantages to routing = protocols is their aggregation/summarization=20 abilities; in this case we are completely defeating that. --Tom On Feb 11, 2014:11:00 AM, at 11:00 AM, Susan Hares = wrote: > Tom: > =20 > The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved = with =93what makes business sense=94 (aka Shakespere in BGP) instead = the =93purist=94 mandate on what BGP can do. > =20 > As to Data Center=92s use of the BGP, I suggest you review the draft: > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/ > =20 > Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. Yakov = indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN. IMHO documenting on these = deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers. =20 > =20 > The IDR WG has moved on from the =93purist=94 view to allowing DCs = private AS space and allowing link-state information to be carried in = BGP. These usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a = portion of the Internet. If you feel host routes should not be carried, = please comment to idr@ietf.org on draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution = solution which passes LSP Info in BGP. It is being suggest for early = allocation of code points =96 so it vital to make your concerns known. > =20 > Sue Hares > =20 > =20 > From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:28 AM > To: Thomas Morin > Cc: Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN > Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP > =20 > =20 > =20 > Hi Giles, Thomas, >=20 > I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: = advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) = in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling = standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. =20 > What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case = but not in the other ? > =20 > I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not = that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it = can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has = become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of = the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of = protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without = doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given = past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to = the question of the mechanics of this solution. > =20 > --Tom > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -Thomas >=20 > 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: > > =20 > Hi, > =20 > Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP = mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more = precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ?=20 > =20 > * Which control or data plane element will not scale ?=20 > =20 > or=20 > =20 > * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ?=20 > =20 > Just curious .... > =20 > Cheers, > R. > =20 > =20 > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > > > wrote: >=20 > Thomas, >=20 > I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles = made.=20 > =20 > =20 > On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron = wrote: >=20 > > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a = non-author but name-checked commenter). > > > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. --Apple-Mail=_973B6874-A402-4124-B193-F7283677DCB2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252

I am still not convinced that = shipping around what effectively is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good = idea. 
There just seem to be better alternatives that have been = pointed out that scale well. I also do not think it is 
a = purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs are = doing today for routes, and its not
/32s.  I will also point = out that one of the advantages to routing protocols is their = aggregation/summarization 
abilities; in this case we are = completely defeating that.

= --Tom


On Feb 11, = 2014:11:00 AM, at 11:00 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Tom:
 
The argument on /32 for = IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with =93what makes business = sense=94 (aka Shakespere in BGP)  instead the =93purist=94 mandate = on what BGP can do.
 
As to Data Center=92s use of the BGP, I suggest you = review the draft:
 
Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of = purposes.  Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN. =  IMHO documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and = implementers.   
 
The IDR WG has moved on = from the =93purist=94 view to allowing DCs private AS space and allowing = link-state information to be carried in BGP.    These = usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the = Internet.  If you feel host routes should not be carried, please = comment to idr@ietf.org  on = draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP  Info in = BGP.  It is being suggest for early allocation of code points =96 = so it vital to make your concerns known.
 
Sue = Hares
 
 
From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 = 9:28 AM
To: Thomas = Morin
Cc: Giles Heron; Robert = Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; = L3VPN
Subject: Re: /32s in DC and = BGP
 
 
 
Hi Giles, = Thomas,

I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an = additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 = routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally = different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in = E-VPN BGP routes.  
What would be the = reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the = other  ?
 
        &= nbsp;   I think you are = missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; = as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of = routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the = protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be = shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are = other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question = the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 = for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of = this solution.
 
        &= nbsp;   --Tom
=
 



-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert = Raszuk:
<changing subject to reflect = more broader l3vpn related = topic>
 
Hi,
 
Could those who claim that that = sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone = environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate = what the real problem is ? 
 
* Which control or data plane = element will not scale ? 
 
or 
 
* Which part of BGP state machine = will not scale ? 
 
Just curious = ....
 
Cheers,
R.
 
 
>
On = Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas = Nadeau
>

        = Thomas,

        I too object to it's adoption = based on the /32 point Giles made. 
 
 
On = Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> = wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item = (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> = The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will = scale.
=

= --Apple-Mail=_973B6874-A402-4124-B193-F7283677DCB2-- --Apple-Mail=_44A35A53-F5CC-444C-8C3C-CB92CFD897DC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+laFAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZH9YP+wR6n5qsiMIcNirFIfXowNyy m+k7la/R+jqmaJcCycxz/2MXFxBqaVpUpJPBgRXusUBUfuU87sSnLpAMTf8js8YL OXOw4k85XwanBgzIxvqtZBvYgF3ipj7eVz9Q14xZ8zGkficAOjC761n8bUDDv5SG Uwnv+UcsQOiJhnIQZwMdZU+zG6nlYSHY6dZUTi5PomN4yv1vjA2ToFzCb3McakIR T+szERrY2UDrrpHvCbFbnrbDWjcQvWqkhTsb2ayCCw/ohkkcVVJcpEh3ijbFe/Ge Gdhq64bjBart2KCL6IxUkZlBBmYTh+g1ds9i2GLpzOZXqVr7j/aHcwc9VDGC5FeK 5JE5pNaI23kC8b848gvt8fYzgYAsoZHWJj+PePyVbplPEQD5s0hNGj5CKeW4+zeh 1YZMaMDOZSKSRfu6pkVFS48OMTgEObb1BdB9wYgT+iRcA00CRfOr2sj2LwOL4YHP yrND4q4OeQqkC3J/Mr0kyjekzF5TlRDba+60sMoTzA3ULVTGDvvyVRLT+22BveHF 1CRMQDXq+yc50ngbX3FmqNdZMFzq405Ug23MF+0tKM3iZE8a4Z2WlMWIGy+qgJ32 piWNYGzYbYpj9Z8SHa4NAv9ZMPzdgmAd+nDRKHmh2v2VTIqz9OATX82a6o01B3aV so5ApbeJHF3lyRJgtzs7 =574M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_44A35A53-F5CC-444C-8C3C-CB92CFD897DC-- From shares@ndzh.com Tue Feb 11 09:06:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F241A0639 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:06:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jQSpHPtWRNpc for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7E01A0654 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:06:08 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=64.112.195.202; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Thomas Nadeau'" References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: /32s in DC and BGP Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:05:58 -0500 Message-ID: <001201cf274b$895d5760$9c180620$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF2721.A08A5CA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIaGV2Ids5N72j3vr3E0uQQ3tOo0wMCZs/AATAGvngBSmSY3wKCRuEsmdppwDA= Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Cc: 'Thomas Morin' , draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org, 'L3VPN' , 'Robert Raszuk' X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:06:11 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF2721.A08A5CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom: My point was - don't legislate the BGP usage - let the market decide. Document what is as informational. Not going to debate your IHMO or my IHMO. Sue From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:58 AM To: Susan Hares Cc: Thomas Morin; Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP I am still not convinced that shipping around what effectively is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good idea. There just seem to be better alternatives that have been pointed out that scale well. I also do not think it is a purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs are doing today for routes, and its not /32s. I will also point out that one of the advantages to routing protocols is their aggregation/summarization abilities; in this case we are completely defeating that. --Tom On Feb 11, 2014:11:00 AM, at 11:00 AM, Susan Hares wrote: Tom: The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with "what makes business sense" (aka Shakespere in BGP) instead the "purist" mandate on what BGP can do. As to Data Center's use of the BGP, I suggest you review the draft: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/ Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN. IMHO documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers. The IDR WG has moved on from the "purist" view to allowing DCs private AS space and allowing link-state information to be carried in BGP. These usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Internet. If you feel host routes should not be carried, please comment to idr@ietf.org on draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP Info in BGP. It is being suggest for early allocation of code points - so it vital to make your concerns known. Sue Hares From: Thomas Nadeau [ mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:28 AM To: Thomas Morin Cc: Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP Hi Giles, Thomas, I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other ? I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution. --Tom -Thomas 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: Hi, Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? or * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? Just curious .... Cheers, R. > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > < tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote: Thomas, I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron < giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter). > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF2721.A08A5CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tom:

 

My point was - don’t legislate the BGP usage – let the = market decide.  Document what is as informational.  Not going = to debate your IHMO or my IHMO. 

 

Sue

 

From:= = Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com]
Sent: Tuesday, = February 11, 2014 11:58 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: = Thomas Morin; Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN
Subject: = Re: /32s in DC and BGP

 

 

        &n= bsp;   I am still not convinced that shipping around = what effectively is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good = idea. 

There just seem to = be better alternatives that have been pointed out that scale well. I = also do not think it is 

a purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look = at what big DCs are doing today for routes, and its = not

/32s.  I will also = point out that one of the advantages to routing protocols is their = aggregation/summarization 

abilities; in this case we are completely defeating = that.

 

        &n= bsp;   --Tom

 

 

On = Feb 11, 2014:11:00 AM, at 11:00 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> = wrote:



Tom:

 

The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved = with “what makes business sense” (aka Shakespere in BGP) =  instead the “purist” mandate on what BGP can = do.

 

As to Data Center’s use of the BGP, I suggest you review the = draft:

 

Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. =  Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN.  IMHO = documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and = implementers.   

 

The IDR WG has moved on from the “purist” view to = allowing DCs private AS space and allowing link-state information to be = carried in BGP.    These usage are not Internet-wide = usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Internet.  If you feel = host routes should not be carried, please comment to idr@ietf.org  on = draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP  Info in = BGP.  It is being suggest for early allocation of code points = – so it vital to make your concerns = known.

 

Sue Hares

 

 

From:=  Thomas = Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 = 9:28 AM
To: Thomas = Morin
Cc: Giles Heron; Robert = Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN
Subject: Re: /32s in DC and = BGP

 

 

 

Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's = questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non = aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 = routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than = advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes.  
What would be the reason = to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other  = ?

 

        &n= bsp;   I think you are missing the = point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a = protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes = and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of = the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to = be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are = other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question = the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 = for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of = this solution.

 

        &n= bsp;   --Tom

 





-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert = Raszuk:

<changing = subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related = topic>

 

Hi,

 

Could those = who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within = contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and = kindly indicate what the real problem is = ? 

 

* Which = control or data plane element will not scale = ? 

 

or 

 

* Which part = of BGP state machine will not scale = ? 

 

Just curious = ....

 

Cheers,
R.

 

 

> 

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas = Nadeau

> 


    =     Thomas,

        I too object to = it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles = made. 

 

 

On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, = Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> = wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item = (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> = The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will = scale.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CF2721.A08A5CA0-- From rraszuk@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 09:08:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6B71A0654 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dF9r60eihx7W for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x22e.google.com (mail-la0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089941A0639 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f46.google.com with SMTP id b8so6076236lan.19 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:08:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JJzsofbl9wZ4xh3IA28HeVL4vak/vO8vjknhiOGP/cs=; b=kY/c7gGjk8Z/OwDg0Tko6xVeJODo6VV15YrHqjfrK0BFR8sesGzBKo6L25ktDqwoHF tgsZB0bE9EFRd+BFrFkyhcF9+QOL8LzOgO+CCumytCq7i1o67Gxn5EIz40YOUZBmjYL7 0rNyXlPs7xApgBuD/KrMGO4BweSSinn9ntTPwfnU9FLQLPIGnkqpdPD/F97bX+6IcRtS 6p5tQKelI4sw3SK9q5hAbDMbB95q19bXAEENCgcLUceTaEKuSgrFnldHDi4F7msW/EiF RJAI0nLV0fCqPAo6KeJiJMUnlAM/09CKRA3z8EEvd5P557p5quui5vr31HygHMmNhGVN DyXg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.26.79 with SMTP id j15mr521996lbg.73.1392138494610; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:08:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:08:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:08:14 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EtjZZoZ4PERZodwk3CP1JD0q9yg Message-ID: Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Robert Raszuk To: Thomas Nadeau Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133f07c73132b04f224803d Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Susan Hares X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:08:21 -0000 --001a1133f07c73132b04f224803d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tom, It is common to have orchestration layer spreading given tenant VMs or appliances across different hosts. To reach those you need to have a route to it. And that is an overlay route not a transport one. That's already an important distinction. I am not sure what is your definition of "shipping around" as it is pretty easy to divide your tenants into separate and disjoined control plane blocks. Then you do not need to carry it all in one basket. I think you are here not really arguing against virtual-subnet draft as this proposes just an enhancement. You are fighting against l3vpn-for-end-systems proposal which is based on carrying all /32s of all VMs within a DC zone. Please observe that this has nothing to do with FIBs .. each data plane will still use only what it needs to serve locally attached tenant resources. If you aggregate at the network in the PE sure you may summarize a bit, but then you will have all those folks asking for seamless and optimal VM mobility across such PEs which does require precise reachability. rgs, R. On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Thomas Nadeau wrote: > > I am still not convinced that shipping around what effectively is the > entire FIB of a DC, is a good idea. > There just seem to be better alternatives that have been pointed out that > scale well. I also do not think it is > a purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs are > doing today for routes, and its not > /32s. I will also point out that one of the advantages to routing > protocols is their aggregation/summarization > abilities; in this case we are completely defeating that. > > --Tom > > > On Feb 11, 2014:11:00 AM, at 11:00 AM, Susan Hares > wrote: > > Tom: > > The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with > "what makes business sense" (aka Shakespere in BGP) instead the "purist" > mandate on what BGP can do. > > As to Data Center's use of the BGP, I suggest you review the draft: > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/ > > Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. Yakov > indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN. IMHO documenting on these > deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers. > > The IDR WG has moved on from the "purist" view to allowing DCs private AS > space and allowing link-state information to be carried in BGP. These > usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the > Internet. If you feel host routes should not be carried, please comment to > idr@ietf.org on draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes > LSP Info in BGP. It is being suggest for early allocation of code points > - so it vital to make your concerns known. > > Sue Hares > > > *From:* Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com > ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:28 AM > *To:* Thomas Morin > *Cc:* Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN > *Subject:* Re: /32s in DC and BGP > > > > > Hi Giles, Thomas, > > I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: > advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in > BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint > than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. > What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but > not in the other ? > > > I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not > that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can > ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the > "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - > do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that > there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also > question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in > NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics > of this solution. > > --Tom > > > > > -Thomas > > 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: > > > > Hi, > > Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly > within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise > and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? > > * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? > > or > > * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? > > Just curious .... > > Cheers, > R. > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > > > wrote: > > Thomas, > > I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. > > > > On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron > wrote: > > > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a > non-author but name-checked commenter). > > > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting > routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that > passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. > > > --001a1133f07c73132b04f224803d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

It is common to have orchestration layer spreading given tenant VMs or appl= iances across different hosts. 

To reach those you need to have a route to it. And that is an overlay route= not a transport one. That's already an important distinction. 

I am not sure what is your definition of "ship= ping around" as it is pretty easy to divide your tenants into separate= and disjoined control plane blocks. Then you do not need to carry it all i= n one basket. 

I think you are here not really argui= ng against virtual-subnet draft as this proposes just an enhancement. You a= re fighting against l3vpn-for-end-systems proposal which is based on carryi= ng all /32s of all VMs within a DC zone. 

Please observe that this has nothing = to do with FIBs .. each data plane will still use only what it needs to ser= ve locally attached tenant resources. 

If you aggregate at the network in th= e PE sure you may summarize a bit, but then you will have all those folks a= sking for seamless and optimal VM mobility across such PEs which does requi= re precise reachability.

rgs,
R.





On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Thomas = Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com> wrote:

I am still not convinced that shipping around what eff= ectively is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good idea. 
There just se= em to be better alternatives that have been pointed out that scale well. I = also do not think it is 
a purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs a= re doing today for routes, and its not
/32s.  I will also point ou= t that one of the advantages to routing protocols is their aggregation/summ= arization 
abilities; in this case we are completely defeating that.

--Tom
<= div>


On Feb 11, 2014:11:= 00 AM, at 11:00 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Tom:
 
The argument on /= 32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with “what makes b= usiness sense” (aka Shakespere in BGP)  instead the “puris= t” mandate on what BGP can do.
 
As to Data Center’s use of the BGP, I suggest you review the = draft:
 
Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes.  = ;Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN.  IMHO documenting= on these deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers.   = ;
 
 
Sue Hares
=  
 
From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:28 AM
To:=  Thomas Morin
Cc: Giles H= eron; Robert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN=
Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP
 
 
 =
Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask= an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 rou= tes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different f= rom a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes= .  
What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but no= t in the other  ?
 
 &nb= sp;          I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP= will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship arou= nd millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "du= mp truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach = - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given tha= t there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also q= uestion the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in = NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics o= f this solution.
 
            --Tom
 



-Thomas
2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk:
<changing subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related topic><= /u>
 
Hi,<= /div>
 
Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP = mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more pr= ecise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? 
 
* Which control or data p= lane element will not scale ? 
 
=
or 
 
* Which part of BGP state= machine will not scale ? 
 
=
Just curious ....
 
Cheers,
R.
 
 
>=
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas = Nadeau
>

        Thomas,

        = I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. <= u>
 
 
On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron <= ;giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking = as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has = a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for in= terconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes = around in BGP will scale.
=


--001a1133f07c73132b04f224803d-- From shares@ndzh.com Tue Feb 11 09:31:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097A61A01FD for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:31:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id en-GbgiqZQem for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A4F1A0631 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=64.112.195.202; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Thomas Nadeau'" , "'Thomas Morin'" References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> Subject: RE: /32s in DC and BGP Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:31:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001d01cf274f$2101cee0$63056ca0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF2725.383081D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIaGV2Ids5N72j3vr3E0uQQ3tOo0wMCZs/AATAGvngBSmSY35nuhLBA Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Cc: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org, 'L3VPN' , 'Robert Raszuk' X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:31:54 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF2725.383081D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reposting to list . Sue From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:00 AM To: 'Thomas Nadeau'; 'Thomas Morin' Cc: 'Giles Heron'; 'Robert Raszuk'; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; 'L3VPN' Subject: RE: /32s in DC and BGP Tom: The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with "what makes business sense" (aka Shakespere in BGP) instead the "purist" mandate on what BGP can do. As to Data Center's use of the BGP, I suggest you review the draft: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/ Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN. IMHO documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers. The IDR WG has moved on from the "purist" view to allowing DCs private AS space and allowing link-state information to be carried in BGP. These usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Internet. If you feel host routes should not be carried, please comment to idr@ietf.org on draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP Info in BGP. It is being suggest for early allocation of code points - so it vital to make your concerns known. Sue Hares From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:28 AM To: Thomas Morin Cc: Giles Heron; Robert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP Hi Giles, Thomas, I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the other ? I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution. --Tom -Thomas 2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk: Hi, Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? * Which control or data plane element will not scale ? or * Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? Just curious .... Cheers, R. > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau > wrote: Thomas, I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 PM, Giles Heron wrote: > I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter). > > The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /32 host routes around in BGP will scale. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF2725.383081D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Reposting to list …

 

Sue

 

From:= = Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February = 11, 2014 11:00 AM
To: 'Thomas Nadeau'; 'Thomas = Morin'
Cc: 'Giles Heron'; 'Robert Raszuk'; = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; 'L3VPN'
Subject: = RE: /32s in DC and BGP

 

Tom:

 

The argument on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved = with “what makes business sense” (aka Shakespere in BGP) =  instead the “purist” mandate on what BGP can do. =

 

As to Data Center’s use of the BGP, I suggest you review the = draft:

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lapukhov-bgp-routing-large-dc/=

 

Some data centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes. =  Yakov indicates host routes are being ship in EVPN.  IMHO = documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and = implementers.   

 

The IDR WG has moved on from the “purist” view to = allowing DCs private AS space and allowing link-state information to be = carried in BGP.    These usage are not Internet-wide = usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Internet.  If you feel = host routes should not be carried, please comment to idr@ietf.org  on = draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP  Info in = BGP.  It is being suggest for early allocation of code points = – so it vital to make your concerns known. =

 

Sue Hares

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's = questions below, and ask an additional question: advertising non = aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP VPNv4 = routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than = advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes. 
What would be = the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but not in the = other  ?

 

        &n= bsp;   I think you are missing the point that was = raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly = shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff = as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The = question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around = /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that = work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a = Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but = that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this = solution.

 

        &n= bsp;   --Tom

 

 


-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert = Raszuk:

<changing = subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related = topic>

 

Hi,

 

Could those who claim that that = sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP mainly within contained DC zone = environment will not scale be a bit more precise and kindly indicate = what the real problem is ? 

 

* Which control or data plane = element will not scale ? 

 

or 

 

* Which part of BGP state machine = will not scale ? 

 

Just curious = ....

 

Cheers,
R.

 

 

> =

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at = 3:03 AM, Thomas Nadeau

> =

<tnadeau@lucidvision.com> = wrote:


      =   Thomas,

        I too object to it's = adoption based on the /32 point Giles made. 

 

 

On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:29 = PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> = wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item = (speaking as a non-author but name-checked commenter).
>
> = The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting = routers, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that = passing /32 host routes around in BGP will = scale.

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CF2725.383081D0-- From agmalis@gmail.com Tue Feb 11 10:55:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CA21A06AD for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:55:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XXGbEWpQnsAP for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x235.google.com (mail-qc0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0872A1A067E for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qc0-f181.google.com with SMTP id e9so13500894qcy.26 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:55:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=MdAgMBgCcyXR2UWWNy89Tg4ppMXgtQVn1FjeWFGLveA=; b=C3+ct0f6PahL9BfIJBu/IVV7Q187WwMUmDZMXXrk68DrnFTEXzTDTy+XAEy2T9ZSmK webCSvTfpdOWPhuXRVc1SV+HgLfx2SgShf6N/4YcEBal67xpR57C/7SO+3Vz2zOdKnlT eGxv8yh8gizYSGEs37/4TQv4hz9w8EhKTKVLgoj+qB7UwHwKz0txrSvEYN5WH0IrylJx Nt2XQLLwVMUUGyqiW4gPqhB/NCk6rzOAFZGOKEfE2lGvqMVoix03a7yLbewG/Pv+akDd 6ZKRkhI+iKd/RE3kevW7xr+tov7aoB1igCpK9NnpPDVQQCtIQZR2UB15rPKuRvtW1q8A CAiQ== X-Received: by 10.224.87.193 with SMTP id x1mr60560807qal.70.1392144913258; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:55:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.92.136 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:54:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <434FDF3E-2368-465E-A7D0-351024D34EA1@lucidvision.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> <434FDF3E-2368-465E-A7D0-351024D34EA1@lucidvision.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:54:53 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet To: Thomas Nadeau Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:55:15 -0000 Tom, > Documentation is fine, but if it comes from a WG isn't it then an endorsed > approach unless some language is explicitly added to the draft? Remember, this poll is for WG adoption, not publication. Once the draft has been adopted by the WG, the WG can then add whatever caveat language it wishes to the draft so that it's very clear that this approach has limitations (already in the last paragraph of section 1 and all over section 4), the purpose of the draft is to document a particular usage of the existing L3VPN protocol set, and that there are other standards-based approaches that are/will be standardized by the WG. So I'm in favor of WG adoption, so that the WG can make sure that these caveats are clear in the informational draft. Cheers, Andy From tnadeau@lucidvision.com Tue Feb 11 11:29:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838751A06F1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yls6IlSjwN-h for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from lucidvision.com (lucidvision.com [72.71.250.34]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FCD1A06E6 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.122] (static-72-71-250-38.cncdnh.fast04.myfairpoint.net [72.71.250.38]) by lucidvision.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA3C26EA536; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:29:36 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0452BB04-35B8-422F-90C9-20BDD44CBEEB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Thomas Nadeau In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:29:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3B754AE4-D179-46D7-BDFF-F7E25954357C@lucidvision.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> <434FDF3E-2368-465E-A7D0-351024D34EA1@lucidvision.com> To: "Andrew G. Malis" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:29:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0452BB04-35B8-422F-90C9-20BDD44CBEEB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 My point is that its not worth adopting as a WG item; instead, = it is more appropriate as a person informational. The question that I = am asking (and I think the other responders to the thread that are not = in favor of adoption) is whether or not it makes sense for the WG (and = IETF) to endorse such a solution. I am happy for this to progress as a = personal information draft. --Tom On Feb 11, 2014:1:54 PM, at 1:54 PM, Andrew G. Malis = wrote: > Tom, >=20 >> Documentation is fine, but if it comes from a WG isn't it then an = endorsed >> approach unless some language is explicitly added to the draft? >=20 > Remember, this poll is for WG adoption, not publication. Once the > draft has been adopted by the WG, the WG can then add whatever caveat > language it wishes to the draft so that it's very clear that this > approach has limitations (already in the last paragraph of section 1 > and all over section 4), the purpose of the draft is to document a > particular usage of the existing L3VPN protocol set, and that there > are other standards-based approaches that are/will be standardized by > the WG. >=20 > So I'm in favor of WG adoption, so that the WG can make sure that > these caveats are clear in the informational draft. >=20 > Cheers, > Andy >=20 --Apple-Mail=_0452BB04-35B8-422F-90C9-20BDD44CBEEB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJS+nofAAoJEPcO+I7eiUJZB2UP/RHBstnNOdCRxAzN0g6nxzCw PUjHm50bpEsWWYz9WswZIUScWNzzas+Q6/Upd2sbGAHL5WMM9fZJP5XQD0ojhA8h C8gZvRQxDnYHJ9EO3LfUVyv00nolu4YVTEvrVbWZtZ48UvppcQwvdiKhg44svpMI xYuMkG5BNAYjOmSS1AA4fhB0AZeU8vnbsJ2JjehXHH5/8fVdVqUHm4nyALt7OCPl 33YddVi0jPZCATjMF4vlvmSBNx2uB/S0DBI3u2DU8d/pto8FgmeZEuI/V0xj1OAg 1y0rbGNq0lZXXtSsvnnEhpzIUM6PEHctwNlXl567weOl1G8R7Rz5OnVlGGzKhjN5 6+pjB4JVCu56HyFGu5ef+dislmDkV506x2cVUmRY85y+0TmjFlamQwFKN90QbfDp 6EX6fe+AAvRxT75HNh6RL0WYApxOrkvor3vTEMbuRfbRPMFQK5B/C/7ZEScQRPMZ twUOS+mK/trlmMgLx6vRBPdStJWUiCdpTihylwizYniWJLu1pH094oeT5/FJekkN MtZ2oKouqUBa8TN4kMgXodcLGilMEFTkrMkO9ZTvIgOcyV8OK8jWTuM/GC5PvLE9 165Ze9UtUpaZh0LBhGaOZGGEDQZQo4ze18Lz66VwNphzfbBZzkHXLCSGkvy+ZL// 56JW7ooDqyPgeRo/j3J+ =i/Mf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0452BB04-35B8-422F-90C9-20BDD44CBEEB-- From shares@ndzh.com Tue Feb 11 11:35:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F351A0700 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AbwrUgfoXBw for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30FAB1A06F8 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=64.112.195.202; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Thomas Nadeau'" , "'Andrew G. Malis'" References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> <434FDF3E-2368-465E-A7D0-351024D34EA1@lucidvision.com> <3B754AE4-D179-46D7-BDFF-F7E25954357C@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: <3B754AE4-D179-46D7-BDFF-F7E25954357C@lucidvision.com> Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:34:47 -0500 Message-ID: <006e01cf2760$5322b180$f9681480$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGZCPPnAc1+Y/vQoNcJJi8Vq1M04QHg+ROCAaHFW8gCa+J/iwFNHt2xAtEqS78Ck/ZrZwGCiO7kAbbKP1wBsLUyJpqQVzgw Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Cc: 'Thomas Morin' , draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org, 'L3VPN' X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:35:57 -0000 Andy: + 1 - I feel this type of document does better with group review. Sue -----Original Message----- From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Nadeau Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:30 PM To: Andrew G. Malis Cc: Thomas Morin; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet My point is that its not worth adopting as a WG item; instead, it is more appropriate as a person informational. The question that I am asking (and I think the other responders to the thread that are not in favor of adoption) is whether or not it makes sense for the WG (and IETF) to endorse such a solution. I am happy for this to progress as a personal information draft. --Tom On Feb 11, 2014:1:54 PM, at 1:54 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Tom, > >> Documentation is fine, but if it comes from a WG isn't it then an >> endorsed approach unless some language is explicitly added to the draft? > > Remember, this poll is for WG adoption, not publication. Once the > draft has been adopted by the WG, the WG can then add whatever caveat > language it wishes to the draft so that it's very clear that this > approach has limitations (already in the last paragraph of section 1 > and all over section 4), the purpose of the draft is to document a > particular usage of the existing L3VPN protocol set, and that there > are other standards-based approaches that are/will be standardized by > the WG. > > So I'm in favor of WG adoption, so that the WG can make sure that > these caveats are clear in the informational draft. > > Cheers, > Andy > From renwei.li@huawei.com Tue Feb 11 13:47:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD2D1A0761 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fcZcrIZIqxMF for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2861A074D for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDM38460; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:47:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:46:40 +0000 Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.212.94.48) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:47:37 +0000 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.228]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.68]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:47:26 -0800 From: Richard Li To: "Andrew G. Malis" Subject: RE: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIbhNjdeBvKWG/0Sjqr5qdraKA5qvb5IAgAEp9ICAAAh2AIAAChCAgAAHBoCAAALrAIAABXMAgAA8uoD//6YeUA== Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:47:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <3024C933-0E89-4A72-81D8-1B502136BA94@lucidvision.com> <52FA3A7A.6030604@orange.com> <434FDF3E-2368-465E-A7D0-351024D34EA1@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.213.49.72] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:47:42 -0000 Andy, You are right! It makes sense to have it as a WG doc. This draft really solves a real and significant problem, and it is perfectl= y in line with the current L3VPN framework. On the other hand, it may not b= e applicable to other scenarios as argued by other folks in this list, but = which draft has solved all the problems cleanly once and for all? Having said that, I believe it is beneficial to both vendors and operators = for WG to document this approach with explicit clarifications on its applic= ability. And therefore I am in favor of its WG adoption. Regards, Richard=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: L3VPN [mailto:l3vpn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew G. Malis Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:55 AM To: Thomas Nadeau Cc: Thomas Morin; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN; Robe= rt Raszuk Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Tom, > Documentation is fine, but if it comes from a WG isn't it then an=20 > endorsed approach unless some language is explicitly added to the draft? Remember, this poll is for WG adoption, not publication. Once the draft has= been adopted by the WG, the WG can then add whatever caveat language it wi= shes to the draft so that it's very clear that this approach has limitation= s (already in the last paragraph of section 1 and all over section 4), the = purpose of the draft is to document a particular usage of the existing L3VP= N protocol set, and that there are other standards-based approaches that ar= e/will be standardized by the WG. So I'm in favor of WG adoption, so that the WG can make sure that these cav= eats are clear in the informational draft. Cheers, Andy From xuxiaohu@huawei.com Tue Feb 11 17:46:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7614D1A039A for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:46:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8EsP4ZeJFBUp for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD9E1A02CA for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BDM48775; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:45:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) by lhreml204-edg.china.huawei.com (172.18.7.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:44:59 +0000 Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:45:56 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.45]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:45:50 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Giles Heron , Thomas Morin Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet Thread-Index: AQHPIa46V4sP2kkwM0q2YnD1uOjZwpquY24AgAD1BICAABfUAIABcDNg Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:45:50 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D5FA@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <52F9F631.9060802@orange.com> <8D55314C-DEA5-4D86-A1BB-495E62BAB608@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8D55314C-DEA5-4D86-A1BB-495E62BAB608@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:46:02 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQo+ILeivP7IyzogR2lsZXMgSGVyb24gW21haWx0bzpn aWxlcy5oZXJvbkBnbWFpbC5jb21dDQo+ILeiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE0xOoy1MIxMcjVIDE5OjMyDQo+ 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 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: L3VPN [= mailto:l3vpn-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA= =B1=ED Thomas Nadeau
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA2=D4=C212=C8=D5 0:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Susan Hares
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Thomas Morin; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN; Robert= Raszuk
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: /32s in DC and BGP

 

 

=      I am still not convinced that shipping around w= hat effectively is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good idea. =

There just seem to be better al= ternatives that have been pointed out that scale well. I also do not think = it is 

a purist idea to question routi= ng /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs are doing today for routes, and its n= ot

/32s.  I will also point o= ut that one of the advantages to routing protocols is their aggregation/sum= marization 

 = ;

Hi Tom,

 = ;

Would you = please share us your knowledge about what big DC are doing today for routes= and how the route aggregation/summarization is performed? Thanks in advance.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Xiaohu

 = ;

abilities; in this case we are = completely defeating that.

 = ;

 = ;

 

=      --Tom

 

 

On Feb 11, 2014:11:00 AM, at 11= :00 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com<= /a>> wrote:



Tom:

 

The argume= nt on /32 for IPv4 in BGP is an old one that was resolved with =A1=B0what m= akes business sense=A1=B1 (aka Shakespere in BGP)  instead the =A1=B0p= urist=A1=B1 mandate on what BGP can do.<= /p>

 

As to Data= Center=A1=AFs use of the BGP, I suggest you review the draft:

 

Some data = centers pass host routes for a variety of purposes.  Yakov indicates h= ost routes are being ship in EVPN.  IMHO documenting on these deployed use cases aids researchers and implementers.   

 

The IDR WG= has moved on from the =A1=B0purist=A1=B1 view to allowing DCs private AS s= pace and allowing link-state information to be carried in BGP.   =  These usage are not Internet-wide usage, but adapt BGP to a portion of the Inter= net.  If you feel host routes should not be carried, please comment to=  idr@ietf.org  on draft-ietf-idr-ls-distribution solution which passes LSP  Info in BGP= .  It is being suggest for early allocation of code points =A8C so it = vital to make your concerns known.

 

Sue Hares<= /span>

 

 

From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, Feb= ruary 11, 2014 9:28 AM
To: Thomas Morin Cc: Giles Heron; R= obert Raszuk; draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org; L3VPN
Subject: Re: /32s = in DC and BGP

 

 

 

Hi Giles, Thomas,

I would echo Robert's questions below, and ask an additional question: adve= rtising non aggregated host routes (v4 /32 routes or v6 /128 routes) in BGP= VPNv4 routes is not fundamentally different from a scaling standpoint than= advertising MAC addresses in E-VPN BGP routes.  
What would be the reason to believe it would be an issue in one case but no= t in the other  ?

 

=             I think you are missing the point that was ra= ised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millio= ns of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck&= quot; of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we w= ant to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without d= oing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past o= perational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the ques= tion of the mechanics of this solution.

 

=             --Tom

 





-Thomas

2014-02-11, Robert Raszuk:

<changing subject to reflect more broader l3vpn related t= opic>

 

Hi,

 

Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 i= n BGP mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit m= ore precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? 

 

* Which control or data plane element will not scale ? =

 

or 

 

* Which part of BGP state machine will not scale ? 

 

Just curious ....

 

Cheers,
R.

 

 

> 

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 3:03 AM= , Thomas Nadeau

> 


        Thomas,

        I too object to it's adoption based on the /32 = point Giles made. 

 

 

On Feb 10, 2014:2:29 PM, at 2:2= 9 PM, Giles Heron <giles.heron@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't support adoption of this draft as a WG item (speaking as a non= -author but name-checked commenter).
>
> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting route= rs, but only for interconnecting hosts), and I'm unconvinced that passing /= 32 host routes around in BGP will scale.

 

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D610NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From Boris.Zhang@telus.com Tue Feb 11 18:35:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3111A07DF for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:35:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.14 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.14 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w6lFMY2evu8v for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from donder.nssi.telus.com (donder.nssi.telus.com [208.38.59.82]) by 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From: Xuxiaohu To: Thomas Nadeau , Thomas Morin Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogLzMycyBpbiBEQyBhbmQgQkdQ?= Thread-Topic: /32s in DC and BGP Thread-Index: AQHPJwJ5ziI7R+CGLU2PAluEKPlNF5qvStcAgABL74CAAApEgIAABA4AgAFL5XA= Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:19:35 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D662@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <52FA3C07.5060202@orange.com> <08BB9E75-14A1-450E-9634-A48775D8747B@lucidvision.com> In-Reply-To: <08BB9E75-14A1-450E-9634-A48775D8747B@lucidvision.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D662NKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Cc: L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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This discussion about putting /32s in BGP is absolutely not specific to dra= ft-..-virtual-subnet (see E-VPN, end-system l3vpn).

 

=      Cool.

&n= bsp;

Tom,<= /o:p>

 = ;

Please don= =A1=AFt scrimp your word at the critical moment.  Since we really want= to identify what your real concern is, say on please.

 = ;

Xiaohu

 = ;

=      --Tom

 


 

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D662NKGEML512MBSchi_-- From giles.heron@gmail.com Wed Feb 12 03:39:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C841A096B for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:39:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ke1CLw5ZhX6G for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7D61A0969 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id kq14so9099967pab.31 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:39:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=yjl/Hlmxlg8wotkp3Xygh8phKjHx7VwPDjoFKcrkVfA=; b=tMG7vKaKjzWMSoSCFa5/M/d5SrVnX9393XhuoAtFD0aL5A48o5LGg2xpL2iN1Y6mxI Q5eGt8gXXfw4etzD8/dcrkQNMMy0PJM9qnm41JgLufCROYdmpoWiecAyc12fCc8jKdem pUGVyg4AoDBVTBEXLLAnGLR8Xfc3RJ1c3wuPxY1ARnyB1s5CoTd0Ts61XLk6geUCVoLj M1BPUkaXISyJq/XkwhUniLb2YCXYoTKVivXQJB3RBlbROCyWCZMf+s4EVhxMlzMCJtbr BTlKdhVQ9kQRH1TwtDe9hErJPRXuFtyeQoJDOQhWfxk4AqDIUlBFlavnKgOijaP11rsv Hx7w== X-Received: by 10.66.49.74 with SMTP id s10mr39131306pan.0.1392205168552; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sjc-vpn6-902.cisco.com (128-107-239-233.cisco.com. [128.107.239.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sx8sm159217726pab.5.2014.02.12.03.39.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:39:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From: Giles Heron In-Reply-To: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D5FA@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:39:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <87131D10-095E-47F0-9CDC-E49B48C766B6@gmail.com> <52F9F631.9060802@orange.com> <8D55314C-DEA5-4D86-A1BB-495E62BAB608@gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0824D5FA@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> To: Xuxiaohu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , "l3vpn@ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:39:32 -0000 Hi Xiaohu, On 12 Feb 2014, at 01:45, Xuxiaohu wrote: >=20 >=20 >> -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- >> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Giles Heron [mailto:giles.heron@gmail.com] >> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA2=D4=C211=C8=D5 19:32 >> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Thomas Morin >> =B3=AD=CB=CD: l3vpn@ietf.org; = draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org >> =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >>=20 >> Hi Thomas >>=20 >> I guess the way I see it is that this is such a big limitation that I = find it hard to >> imagine anyone deploying this solution. >=20 > Hi Giles, >=20 > I suggest you google with the following keywords "Dynamic Fabric = Automation (DFA) host route" and have a look at how host routes are used = in the DFA, and then come back to confirm the above assertion. If you = couldn't find it, feel free to tell me and I will provide you a link. I'll leave it to those who know more about how DFA works than I do to = comment. >> is there any way we could get feedback from some data center = operators? >> Perhaps we should ask NVO3 for comments? >=20 > I think the most efficient and simple way is to ask some feedback from = your colleagues who knows about DFA. sure. hopefully some of them read this list. Giles > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 >> Giles >>=20 >> On 11 Feb 2014, at 10:06, Thomas Morin = wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi Giles, >>>=20 >>> 2014-02-10, Giles Heron: >>>> The draft has a major limitation (no support for interconnecting >>>> routers, but only for interconnecting hosts) [...] >>>=20 >>> That would indeed be an issue if the document was aiming standard = track to >> address a specific use case including router interconnections, or if = the limitation >> was not documented. But, the document is not aiming standard track, = and has >> a section to document limitations to which the working group may = contribute >> text for this particular limitation. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> sorry - just spotted the poll has already closed. >>>=20 >>> The date had been mistakenly set 10 days too early. >>> The poll is not closed yet. >>>=20 >>> -Thomas >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 4 Feb 2014, at 13:35, Thomas Morin >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Hello working group, >>>>>=20 >>>>> This email starts a two-week poll on adopting >>>>> draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption >>>>> or not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). >>>>>=20 >>>>> This poll runs until February 9th. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR = that >>>>> applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in >>>>> compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and >>>>> 5378 for more details). >>>>>=20 >>>>> =3D=3D> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* = please >>>>> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of >>>>> any relevant IPR. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received >>>>> from each author and contributor. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an >>>>> author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you >>>>> are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in = conformance >>>>> with IETF rules. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thank you, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Martin & Thomas l3vpn chairs >>>>>=20 >>>>> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet >>>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 From lizho.jin@gmail.com Wed Feb 12 07:37:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558AD1A08EC for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RI0vb_26_qrU for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9EB1A0900 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id rd3so9303551pab.19 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=1H/CKVPLppbLeSNOoqIdnhGkZ7EcnU7gMibcXHCBfBc=; b=pDDgbptQ4wrh/27u0stoeq8nk2fhB69S/CWmLxTExp+P1y30n0UVoxhUpav9X4CkIN wl/9DLcHW+yFJRLMEP9xjI+wXhyTq9yqk0qcJnp0j51sTV+HXbbxugb8JhgFGu3xeWMD OGsujRltF/CMZyboGUI+KQ74pYfKflJDJCESCZJjiUwbn4A8tvPkwskhii+jreySKTfU fRJpxJo2Y8eyx/udbKyEdSPzoTkD8hMP7n1WEnVC1Zu17yqAoZYhQ29KabpfRbUG2Bkj 7tQ9WYeFB5yhlxA1Vd3obh8SUThMlXdueO7ZOtpY8fF6NMk8aFPZI3LBNqNmnUjkaYVG yWVw== X-Received: by 10.68.11.199 with SMTP id s7mr16274845pbb.12.1392219467860; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from LizhongPC ([114.62.204.44]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nm5sm64715034pbc.29.2014.02.12.07.37.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Lizhong Jin" To: References: Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 2014 01:11:59 +0800. <00e601cf1d15$3b7c8a10$b2759e30$@gmail.com> <12189.1392050329@erosen-linux> In-Reply-To: <12189.1392050329@erosen-linux> Subject: RE: Review of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-02 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:37:39 +0800 Message-ID: <52fb954a.c5d4440a.5f78.ffffc23a@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac8mfpQhbp3mMqbTQ+utOVU9vj64eAAu/JdA Content-Language: zh-cn Cc: 'Thomas Morin' , draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet@tools.ietf.org, l3vpn@ietf.org X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:37:51 -0000 Hi Eric, Thank you for the explanation, now I understand better. Then I have two text suggestions, and try to make the draft to be more = clear. 1. Could we have the "tunnel checking condition" context at the end of = section 2.2 in another separate section after section 2. Because this = mechanism is both valid for case of section 2.1 and 2.2. 2. Move section 4 before section 3. Because section 3, 5, 6, and 7 are = signaling related, while section 4 gives out solution related. Others, see inline below. Regards Lizhong > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Rosen [mailto:erosen@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:39 AM > To: Lizhong Jin > Cc: draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet@tools.ietf.org; Thomas Morin; > l3vpn@ietf.org; erosen@cisco.com > Subject: Re: Review of draft-ietf-l3vpn-mvpn-extranet-02 >=20 >=20 > Thank you for reviewing this draft; I know it's not an easy read! >=20 > > Section 3.5.2. [3.4.2 in -03 rev] the word "EC" should be expanded > when > > first used in the document. >=20 > Correct, will fix. >=20 > > Section 3.5.2. [3.4.2 in -03 rev] what's the purpose to advertise > Extranet > > Source Extended Community? I understand the first PE receives the > Extranet > > Source EC will allocate proper RT to the UMH-eligible route, but = what > will > > other PE do when receiving route with or without Extranet Source EC? > Are > > they the same? >=20 > Good question. >=20 > We were concerned about the case where there is a multi-AS extranet > MVPN > with "option (a) interconnect" (see RFC4364 section 10) somewhere. In > an > option (a) interconnect, two PEs are connected via a VRF interface, = and > each > treats the other as if it were a CE. So VPN-IP routes are converted = to > IP > routes and then back again. So in a scenario like: >=20 > CE1---PE1---...---PE2---(option a)---PE3 >=20 > The RTs that PE1 puts on a VPN-IP route are stripped off by PE2 when > PE2 > converts that VPN-IP route an IP route, before distributing it to PE3. > If > CE1 put an Extranet Source extended community on that route, we wanted > that > extended community carried all the way to PE3, so that PE3 can put on > the > appropriate extranet RTs. [Lizhong] got it, thanks. >=20 > > Section 3.6. [3.5 in -03 rev] what is the requirement for "extranet > > separation", MAY, SHOULD or MUST be used in this draft? From my > > understanding, it SHOULD or MUST be used for I-PMSI or S-PMSI (C-*, > C-*), > > otherwise, the egress PE does not know whether to do tunnel = checking. >=20 > If extranet separation is used, I think that section makes it clear > just > when the Extranet Separation extended community is needed. >=20 > I think the draft also makes it clear that extranet separation is > "optional > to deploy". The draft doesn't state whether it is "optional to > implement" > as well. >=20 > At least one of the authors believes that extranet separation is not = of > much > value at all, and is at best an optimization/complication whose > implementation should not be required. On the other hand, at least = one > of > the authors believes that there are circumstances in which extranet > separation may significantly reduce the amount of multicast traffic > tunneled > to PEs that don't have receivers for that traffic. >=20 > > From my understanding, it SHOULD or MUST be used for I-PMSI or = S-PMSI > > (C-*, C-*), otherwise, the egress PE does not know whether to do > tunnel > > checking. >=20 > I assume that by "tunnel checking" you mean "discarding packets that > arrive > on a tunnel other than the expected one". >=20 > The use of extranet separation is not a sufficient condition for > avoiding > tunnel checking, because it does not eliminate the ambiguity described > in > section 2.2. Also, if an implementation always does tunnel checking, > it > doesn't have to determine whether tunnel checking is required in some > particular case. So I don't think extranet separation should be a = MUST > or > SHOULD, in which case the use of the Extranet Separation extended > community > is not a MUST or a SHOULD either. [Lizhong] OK, now I understand it better. >=20 > > Section 7.5 >=20 > > It would be valuable to say explicitly when tunnel checking will be > > enabled. >=20 > Section 7.5 should have a pointer to section 2.2, which gives the > conditions > under which tunnel checking can be omitted. >=20 > > Section 4.1.2. >=20 > "If VRF-S does not contain both extranet C-sources and non- > extranet > C-sources, this condition holds automatically." >=20 > > Should the above be: If VRF-S does not contain extranet C-sources or > > non-extranet C-sources, this condition holds automatically. >=20 > The condition being referenced is: >=20 > "Traffic from extranet C-sources MUST NOT be carried in the = same > P-tunnel as traffic from non-extranet C-sources." >=20 > I think it's okay as written; unless a VRF has both extranet C-sources > and > non-extranet C-sources, it can't put both extranet C-flows and non- > extranet > C-flows in a given tunnel. [Lizhong] understand, and suggest to change: If VRF-S contains only = extranet C-sources or non-extranet C-sources, this condition holds = automatically. >=20 > > Section 5.2.2 >=20 > "If it is desired to support extranet while also using IR to > instantiate the PMSIs, an alternative is to use (C-*,C-*) S-PMSIs > instead of I-PMSIs." >=20 > > Should the above "extranet" be "non-extranet"? >=20 > No, "extranet" is what is intended. >=20 > > If it is extranet, tunnel checking is still necessary, then there is > still > > tunnel type restriction (MP2P LSP could not be used). >=20 > Please see draft-rosen-l3vpn-ir-00.txt ("Ingress Replication Tunnels = in > Multicast VPN"), especially section 6. This explains how the tunnel > checking works when MP2P LSPs are used as the unicast tunnels. >=20 > Please let me know if I have misunderstood any of your questions (or = if > you > don't like any of my answers ;-)). [Lizhong] thanks. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From erosen@cisco.com Wed Feb 12 08:44:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64FBA1A0338 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:44:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.548, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wm-taNruJTiY for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105EB1A02A7 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:43:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3951; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1392223437; x=1393433037; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:reply-to:date:message-id; bh=/LjRfP1Z5sxuU1oFB9cgiPuwNJJSz/mTS3oLubHAyhs=; b=QJsaR7TOLP7wgS1HQcI1PoDRXeDyv7kAtttkvKRjWgBPi8dWQbjBf7mF 9LJ0Clsg4dE6rNyEzw5nUx7Nsx/JTUbe0p7kVP4tYd1AL6wgEobp2pmfw USySiJBHQDxRvBdl/kB6HTqtZT2FUjxdbtnPUrLymEglk2Jm/EluWdS8c M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,833,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="19904222" Received: from rcdn-core2-1.cisco.com ([173.37.113.188]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2014 16:43:56 +0000 Received: from erosen-linux.cisco.com (erosen-linux.cisco.com [161.44.71.43]) by rcdn-core2-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1CGht4D021979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:43:56 GMT Received: from erosen-linux (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by erosen-linux.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s1CGhrhL014361; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:43:53 -0500 From: Eric Rosen To: Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:22:41 +0100. Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:43:53 -0500 Message-ID: <14360.1392223433@erosen-linux> Cc: erosen@cisco.com, Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: erosen@cisco.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:44:02 -0000 Robert> Could those who claim that that sending /32 or /64 or /128 in BGP Robert> mainly within contained DC zone environment will not scale be a bit Robert> more precise and kindly indicate what the real problem is ? I think the issue is really straightforward, and has nothing specifically to do with BGP. My interpretation of the draft is that it is trying to meet the following requirements: - Allow the number of VMs to increase without bound. - Give each VM a host address that is location-independent (and hence not summarizable within routing). - Provide optimal routing from any client (presumably anywhere on the Internet) to any VM. I think it is difficult to meet these requirements jointly without running into some problems of scale. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding the requirements that the draft is trying to meet. Your mention of "contained DC zone environment" certainly suggests that I'm overlooking some context. Similarly, your remark in another thread: Robert> Inter-DC or DC to user rather always depends on careful choice and Robert> when possible aggregation at the gateway. suggests that summarization at some level is still going to be important for good scaling. However, the draft does not talk about that at all, nor does it have normative references to other drafts that set the context. I suppose it's possible, as Pedro seems to suggest, that my thinking is hopelessly trapped in the last century ;-) Perhaps new developments in hardware and/or virtualization mean that address summarizability is no longer an important factor in scaling the routing system. If that's the assumption, it would be good to state it. Note that the draft itself calls attention to these scalability issues by explicitly positioning itself as being more scalable than an L2 solution. While L3 is certainly more scalable than L2, much of that increased scalability comes from L3's ability to summarize addresses on a topological basis. The second scaling issue has to do with rate of change. Pedro has presented some facts indicating that the time to complete a VM move is quite long compared with routing convergence time. I don't question that. However, that by itself does not imply anything about the rate of VM movement. It's not clear to me whether the rate of VM movement is supposed to be able to increase without bound, or whether realistically this rate is expected to always remain small compared to what routing can handle. If the latter, that would certainly be worth mentioning. The third scaling issue is specific to the "ARP snooping" scheme, and to the way that enduser activity (the generation of ARP responses) can lead to the auto-origination of BGP routes. Perhaps MVPN has inured us to this sort of phenomenon. But RFC6514 does talk of rate limiting the generation of MVPN BGP routes, while this draft does not mention rate limiting at all. A related area of concern is the feedback loop where ARP responses cause BGP activity, and BGP activity causes ARP responses. (This feedback loop doesn't exist if the PEs get their information from the orchestration system, rather than from snooping ARPs.) In a previous message you said: Robert> Just presence of learned entry in the ARP table should not trigger Robert> the host route auto-generation. So, where are the detailed rules relating ARP snooping to host route auto-generation? I do like Xiaohu's suggestion to de-emphasize the ARP snooping procedure and to better document its applicability restrictions. I didn't mean to start a food fight, or to start yet another religious discussion about the use of BGP. I just think that the draft makes claims of scalability that depend upon certain assumptions, and the assumptions are not made explicit. It doesn't bother me if the assumptions are controversial, but I would like to know what they are. From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com Wed Feb 12 08:55:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB45A1A0447 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.443 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.443 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.556, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8nDBMoOV6fk for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762251A040E for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id kq14so9448040pab.31 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=0L+W8SldfRnDOkki+Vkj/IRQXlwIIZB7YuWu2gflwqA=; b=Ss3QzT5DqOkh2COxItmWvNa/tJMju1Nm7SAjdH5VyYU1CONzqWCIzuZtuzW65ogA17 xLJOGm1RMkrV3wzU/FPbAvysSfXraUXZe/InJwUg4O51MRIs5Dq4qDVi5sah2c76H0jk jKilIqpkjRDFDw96GAxOuF1d39F7GOafywyZYQ52QcLHRzQS5MxKkGvvfJiLHYIeOhWx C0RrlJqa2VxAbyfJ7kPIc8fxHZmJkg7WaWBr9EaCHwB1O9zNclImM2Fi0HJCTbwzCR+T n5BrSrrvn85kznSqLh3FhFIB1A1J+M+QANds1nWT+4XjioEPRQxC6j7eUvx/W4I9VUmy rVeg== X-Received: by 10.68.255.101 with SMTP id ap5mr52320881pbd.41.1392224130677; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pedros-mbp.jnpr.net ([66.129.239.13]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bz4sm65278749pbb.12.2014.02.12.08.55.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:29 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_09A5FD29-A7C4-434F-BEF9-8DF8098DCC24" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Pedro Roque Marques In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:55:26 -0800 Message-Id: <8A29D61C-60F6-495C-B21F-B5E5EE278C92@gmail.com> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> <023301cf2742$5d63f370$182bda50$@ndzh.com> To: Thomas Nadeau X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:08:45 -0800 Cc: L3VPN WG X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:55:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_09A5FD29-A7C4-434F-BEF9-8DF8098DCC24 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Feb 11, 2014, at 8:57 AM, Thomas Nadeau = wrote: >=20 > I am still not convinced that shipping around what effectively = is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good idea.=20 > There just seem to be better alternatives that have been pointed out = that scale well. I also do not think it is=20 > a purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs = are doing today for routes, and its not > /32s. I will also point out that one of the advantages to routing = protocols is their aggregation/summarization=20 > abilities; in this case we are completely defeating that. >=20 > --Tom I'll present my data. There are two types of scaling tests that the team I work with has = performed: 1. Simulation of BGP control plane scale. 2. Scale tests with functioning nested OpenStack clusters: the first = layer cluster provides virtual machines that simulate hypervisors which = then run nested virtual machines. In simulation we have set a target of 4M routes and a demux factor of 2k = compute-nodes per control node. 4M routes is 2 to 3 orders of magnitude = higher than the maximum scale that is possible with existing commercial = orchestration system enterprise offerings. There is 1 (maybe 2) = organizations that have proprietary systems that can reach that scale = but these are not generally available. The simulation tests the worse case scenario of all compute-nodes = rebooting simultaneously (which is impossible from a power management = perspective). Expected reboot rates are about 1 per day. Proprietary = orchestration systems will be able to spawn tens of VMs per minute at = peek activity. Commercial offerings to not have such dynamic workloads = so from a perspective of updates compute-node reboot is the stress = factor. Control plane: - Hardware: 24 virtual cores, 128GB RAM [ Intel Xeon E5-2640 ] - Software: opencontrail control-node Load generator: = https://github.com/Juniper/contrail-controller/blob/master/src/bgp/test/bg= p_stress_test.cc The load generator allows one to vary the number of simulated = compute-nodes per process as well as number of VRFs and routes per VRF. Some of the results: Given that the software is freely available i would invite others to try = to replicate the results. We found the tests to be very useful in identifying concurrency issues = with the software. But 60k updates per second is 3 orders of magnitude = higher than the expected max requirement for a solution. Solutions based on BGP can scale horizontally. The results above are for = a pair of Route Servers. By deploying additional pairs of route servers = the total numbers of compute-nodes served can be increase; one can also = decrease the number of updates seen by each Route Server. The teams conclusion is that the system is over-designed beyond what is = actually a reasonable safety margin. Becca Nitzan and Ananth Suryanarayana worked on generating the results = above. They did a fantastic job over multiple months to create as much = stress is possible in simulation. With full cluster level deployment (openstack on openstack) the largest = setup we where able to simulate was 800 compute-nodes running 4k = virtual-machine instances. This is using 80 physical servers. While it is a challenge to bring such as system up, the scaling of the = control plane or the number of routes has never entered the picture. = Please note that the simulation above is targeting a scenario where = there are 1000 times more virtual-machines present. The system above provides a full distributed routing implementation = which reduces latency from inter-VM traffic. Traffic is not required to = traverse the data-center fabric multiple times. It scales orders of = magnitude above the requirements. I hope that WG looks at the questions being raised from the perspective = of analyzing concrete data. Pedro.= --Apple-Mail=_09A5FD29-A7C4-434F-BEF9-8DF8098DCC24 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B6B22787-C0A3-40DC-9958-B60417C14FFD" --Apple-Mail=_B6B22787-C0A3-40DC-9958-B60417C14FFD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
On Feb 11, 2014, at 8:57 AM, Thomas = Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com> = wrote:


I am still not convinced that = shipping around what effectively is the entire FIB of a DC, is a good = idea. 
There just seem to be better alternatives that have been = pointed out that scale well. I also do not think it is 
a = purist idea to question routing /32s in a DC. Look at what big DCs are = doing today for routes, and its not
/32s.  I will also point = out that one of the advantages to routing protocols is their = aggregation/summarization 
abilities; in this case we are = completely defeating that.

= --Tom

I'll = present my data.

There are two types of scaling = tests that the team I work with has performed:

1. = Simulation of BGP control plane scale.
2. Scale tests with = functioning nested OpenStack clusters: the first layer cluster provides = virtual machines that simulate hypervisors which then run nested virtual = machines.

In simulation we have set a target of = 4M routes and a demux factor of 2k compute-nodes per control node. 4M = routes is 2 to 3 orders of magnitude higher than the maximum scale that = is possible with existing commercial orchestration system enterprise = offerings. There is 1 (maybe 2) organizations that have proprietary = systems that can reach that scale but these are not generally = available.

The simulation tests the worse case = scenario of all compute-nodes rebooting simultaneously (which is = impossible from a power management perspective). Expected reboot rates = are about 1 per day. Proprietary orchestration systems will be able to = spawn tens of VMs per minute at peek activity. Commercial offerings to = not have such dynamic workloads so from a perspective of updates = compute-node reboot is the stress = factor.

Control plane:
- Hardware: 24 = virtual cores, 128GB RAM [ Intel Xeon E5-2640 ]
- Software: = opencontrail control-node

The load = generator allows one to vary the number of simulated compute-nodes per = process as well as number of VRFs and routes per = VRF.

Some of the = results:


<= /div>

<= /div>

<= /div>

Given that the software is freely available i = would invite others to try to replicate the = results.

We found the tests to be very useful = in identifying concurrency issues with the software. But 60k updates per = second is 3 orders of magnitude higher than the expected max requirement = for a solution.

Solutions based on BGP can = scale horizontally. The results above are for a pair of Route Servers. = By deploying additional pairs of route servers the total numbers of = compute-nodes served can be increase; one can also decrease the number = of updates seen by each Route Server.

The teams = conclusion is that the system is over-designed beyond what is actually a = reasonable safety margin.

Becca Nitzan and = Ananth Suryanarayana worked on generating the results above. They did a = fantastic job over multiple months to create as much stress is possible = in simulation.

With full cluster level = deployment (openstack on openstack) the largest setup we where able to = simulate was 800 compute-nodes running 4k virtual-machine instances. = This is using 80 physical servers.
While it is a challenge to = bring such as system up, the scaling of the control plane or the number = of routes has never entered the picture. Please note that the simulation = above is targeting a scenario where there are 1000 times more = virtual-machines present.

The system above = provides a full distributed routing implementation which reduces latency = from inter-VM traffic. Traffic is not required to traverse the = data-center fabric multiple times. It scales orders of magnitude above = the requirements.

I hope that WG looks at the = questions being raised from the perspective of analyzing concrete = data.

   Pedro.
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-1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JsfFeFQSk9Xx for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x236.google.com (mail-lb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AF21A05E0 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id w7so7252634lbi.41 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:39:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8SrcSig4/nekUFRy5OQzjTbzeTxhRCl+lX93T6zt7Mo=; b=JskmYVPqo7HSBbVCPXOtuFloTpsx9Jzig/0m1POa5j3jfzAIu+cCn/1SsalqhC4KR6 XrPHgNgVctN6SaXg3bvGb6j+N+KedxEo/8PQ9Fj69HMKrDiYDE+Gjhn2JXRYux64cUKS oLwXzr3HnInynjgoN0MGXsK9sEKlIw1Jy8sY4uIZCTN7QspqaO+H1jQutCR13/UJc1Dr cxyJjtntXK71mK1PgCuxl+4mgfYycK5LnxGLxwWa/s4c8j3ABJuZO8I/xETH+Szmru9b S+/aAR0d1SON5spwgQQvzSKX8gXf8mgv/wg4S5Taq3k27gnhemPmUFLzYE+YPDHf4Ul7 edAw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.42.129 with SMTP id o1mr32438457lal.19.1392226770171; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:39:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.51.105 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:39:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <14360.1392223433@erosen-linux> References: <14360.1392223433@erosen-linux> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 18:39:29 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: eNCmtr7BwKc5MTWR8YbdBEGW2WY Message-ID: Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP From: Robert Raszuk To: "erosen@cisco.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3505c153c8c04f2390e4c Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 17:39:35 -0000 --001a11c3505c153c8c04f2390e4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Eric, My interpretation of the draft is that it is trying to meet > the following requirements: > > - Allow the number of VMs to increase without bound. > > - Give each VM a host address that is location-independent (and hence not > summarizable within routing). > > - Provide optimal routing from any client (presumably anywhere on the > Internet) to any VM. > > I think it is difficult to meet these requirements jointly without running > into some problems of scale. > I think your interpretation is almost correct. Almost since no one is claiming to use this "anywhere on the Internet". Access to data centers or WAN VPNs from internet is happening via secure gateways and this is natural place where summarization can and will happen. Likewise if you need to join same-subnet between DC and WAN L3VPN (I personally would recommend to avoid it) you can leak some host routes, but this is still done within VPN scope. > Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding the requirements that the draft is trying > to meet. Your mention of "contained DC zone environment" certainly > suggests > that I'm overlooking some context. Similarly, your remark in another > thread: > > Robert> Inter-DC or DC to user rather always depends on careful choice and > Robert> when possible aggregation at the gateway. > > suggests that summarization at some level is still going to be important > for > good scaling. However, the draft does not talk about that at all, nor does > it have normative references to other drafts that set the context. > I look at this as an optional enhancement working together with L3VPN. So L3VPN will be summarized at the zone/DC gateway when extending it to join WAN L3VPN instances. In the same time you can inject some host routes when needed. But this would not mean in any deployment I would use same-subnet for everything within DC and WAN. No need. > I suppose it's possible, as Pedro seems to suggest, that my thinking is > hopelessly trapped in the last century ;-) Perhaps new developments in > hardware and/or virtualization mean that address summarizability is no > longer an important factor in scaling the routing system. If that's the > assumption, it would be good to state it. > > I think it all depends what the routing system you are really talking about. It also depends if this is an overlay or not. Last and not least it really matters if your routing system is running on new x86 CPUs or being squeezed to run on some underpowered RP/RE blades of traditional last century routers ;-). Should we design all protocol extensions to run on those black sheeps ? > Note that the draft itself calls attention to these scalability issues by > explicitly positioning itself as being more scalable than an L2 solution. > While L3 is certainly more scalable than L2, much of that increased > scalability comes from L3's ability to summarize addresses on a topological > basis. > I guess no one will argue that. But does this means that we can not have solutions which do not use summarization in some of their parts ? > The second scaling issue has to do with rate of change. Pedro has > presented > some facts indicating that the time to complete a VM move is quite long > compared with routing convergence time. I don't question that. However, > that by itself does not imply anything about the rate of VM movement. It's > not clear to me whether the rate of VM movement is supposed to be able to > increase without bound, or whether realistically this rate is expected to > always remain small compared to what routing can handle. If the latter, > that would certainly be worth mentioning. > Eric .. let's keep in mind that you inject /32 when the VM get's created .. when it's ready to take over you may prefer it over former /32 if it was the same address. So one can argue that starting VM will always be slower then BGP Update or BGP Withdraw messages. Wouldn't you agree ? > > The third > s > caling issue is specific to the "ARP snooping" scheme, and to the > way that enduser activity (the generation of ARP responses) can lead to the > auto-origination of BGP routes. Perhaps MVPN has inured us to this sort of > phenomenon. But RFC6514 does talk of rate limiting the generation of MVPN > BGP routes, while this draft does not mention rate limiting at all. A > related area of concern is the feedback loop where ARP responses cause BGP > activity, and BGP activity causes ARP responses. (This feedback loop > doesn't > exist if the PEs get their information from the orchestration system, > rather > than from snooping ARPs.) > > In a previous message you said: > > Robert> Just presence of learned entry in the ARP table should not trigger > Robert> the host route auto-generation. > > So, where are the detailed rules relating ARP snooping to host route > auto-generation? > I would perhaps go as far as GARP trigger. But honestly this solution works well in concert with orchestration system. > I do like Xiaohu's suggestion to de-emphasize the ARP snooping procedure > and > to better document its applicability restrictions. > > +1 > I didn't mean to start a food fight, or to start yet another religious > discussion about the use of BGP. I just think that the draft makes claims > of scalability that depend upon certain assumptions, and the assumptions > are > not made explicit. It doesn't bother me if the assumptions are > controversial, but I would like to know what they are. > I think your points make perfect sense now. In fact the entire idea to make this a WG document is not to have it blessed by IETF, but get more feedback within the working group where people can contribute to make the document and its applicability clearly articulated. Best, R. --001a11c3505c153c8c04f2390e4c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eric,

My interpretation= of the draft is that it is trying to meet
the following requirements:

- Allow the number of VMs to increase without bound.

- Give each VM a host address that is location-independent (and hence not =A0 summarizable within routing).

- Provide optimal routing from any client (presumably anywhere on the
=A0 Internet) to any VM.

I think it is difficult to meet these requirements jointly without running<= br> into some problems of scale.


=
I think your interpretation is almost correct.= Almost since no one is claiming to use this "anywhere on the Internet= ".=A0

Access to data ce= nters or WAN VPNs from internet is happening via secure gateways and this i= s natural place where summarization can and will happen.

Likewise if you n= eed to join same-subnet between DC and WAN L3VPN (I personally would recomm= end to avoid it) you can leak some host routes, but this is still done with= in VPN scope.=A0


=A0
>
Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding the requirements that the = draft is trying
to meet. =A0Your mention of "contained DC zone environment" certa= inly suggests
that I'm overlooking some context. =A0Similarly, your remark in another=
thread:

Robert> Inter-DC or DC to user rather always depends on careful choice a= nd
Robert> when possible aggregation at the gateway.

suggests that summarization at some level is still going to be important fo= r
good scaling. =A0However, the draft does not talk about that at all, nor do= es
it have normative references to other drafts that set the context.


I look a= t this as an optional enhancement working together with L3VPN. So L3VPN wil= l be summarized at the zone/DC gateway when extending it to join WAN L3VPN = instances.=A0

In the same time = you can inject some host routes when needed. But this would not mean in any= deployment I would use same-subnet for everything within DC and WAN. No ne= ed.=A0

=A0
I suppose it's possible, as Pedro seems to suggest, that my thinking is=
hopelessly trapped in the last century ;-) Perhaps new developments in
hardware and/or virtualization mean that address summarizability is no
longer an important factor in scaling the routing system. =A0If that's = the
assumption, it would be good to state it.


I think it all= depends what the routing system you are really talking about. It also depe= nds if this is an overlay or not. Last and not least it really matters if y= our routing system is running on new x86 CPUs or being squeezed to run on s= ome underpowered RP/RE blades of traditional last century routers ;-). Shou= ld we design all protocol extensions to run on those black sheeps ?

=A0
Note that the draft itself calls attention to these scalability issues by explicitly positioning itself as being more scalable than an L2 solution. While L3 is certainly more scalable than L2, much of that increased
scalability comes from L3's ability to summarize addresses on a topolog= ical
basis.


I guess no one will argue that. But does this means that we can not = have solutions which do not use summarization in some of their parts ?=A0
=A0
The second scaling i= ssue has to do with rate of change. =A0Pedro has presented
some facts indicating that the time to complete a VM move is quite long
compared with routing convergence time. =A0I don't question that. =A0Ho= wever,
that by itself does not imply anything about the rate of VM movement. =A0It= 's
not clear to me whether the rate of VM movement is supposed to be able to increase without bound, or whether realistically this rate is expected to always remain small compared to what routing can handle. =A0If the latter,<= br> that would certainly be worth mentioning.


Eric .. let's keep in mind th= at you inject /32 when the VM get's created .. when it's ready to t= ake over you may prefer it over former /32 if it was the same address.

So one can argue = that starting VM will always be slower then BGP Update or BGP Withdraw mess= ages. Wouldn't you agree ?


=A0

The third
s
caling issue is spe= cific to the "ARP snooping" scheme, and to the
way that enduser activity (the generation of ARP responses) can lead to the=
auto-origination of BGP routes. =A0Perhaps MVPN has inured us to this sort = of
phenomenon. =A0But RFC6514 does talk of rate limiting the generation of MVP= N
BGP routes, while this draft does not mention rate limiting at all. =A0A related area of concern is the feedback loop where ARP responses cause BGP<= br> activity, and BGP activity causes ARP responses. (This feedback loop doesn&= #39;t
exist if the PEs get their information from the orchestration system, rathe= r
than from snooping ARPs.)

In a previous message you said:

Robert> Just presence of learned entry in the ARP table should not trigg= er
Robert> the host route auto-generation.

So, where are the detailed rules relating ARP snooping to host route
auto-generation?


I would perhaps go as far as GARP trigger. But honestly th= is solution works well in concert with orchestration system.



I do like Xiaohu's suggestion to de-emphasize the ARP snooping procedur= e and
to better document its applicability restrictions.


+1

=A0
I didn't mean to start a food fight, or to start yet another religious<= br> discussion about the use of BGP. =A0I just think that the draft makes claim= s
of scalability that depend upon certain assumptions, and the assumptions ar= e
not made explicit. =A0It doesn't bother me if the assumptions are
controversial, but I would like to know what they are.

I think your points make perfect se= nse now. In fact the entire idea to make this a WG document is not to have = it blessed by IETF, but get more feedback within the working group where pe= ople can contribute to make the document and its applicability clearly arti= culated.=A0

Best,
R.





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Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.101) by VA3EHSMHS036.bigfish.com (10.7.99.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.227.3; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:54:55 +0000 Received: from CO1PR05MB444.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.73.140) by BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.255.100.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.411.0; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:54:54 +0000 Received: from CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.73.146) by CO1PR05MB444.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.73.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.873.15; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:54:52 +0000 Received: from CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.13.51]) by CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.13.51]) with mapi id 15.00.0878.008; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:54:52 +0000 From: Ronald Bonica To: "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-l3vpn-orf-covering-prefixes-01.txt Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-l3vpn-orf-covering-prefixes-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHPKRZrr26td+OsPk+fJ9YX2c1DVZqz250g Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:54:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4dc904f835da41ef8ecffd56c6e8a566@CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-forefront-prvs: 0121F24F22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/AIHaeCrdiZT2x8Wu_NEYpYPPQsQ X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 23:55:12 -0000 Rm9sa3MsDQoNClBsZWFzZSByZXZpZXcgYW5kIGNvbW1lbnQuDQoNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICBSb24N Cg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGll dGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86aW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzQGlldGYub3JnXSANClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5 LCBGZWJydWFyeSAxMywgMjAxNCA2OjUxIFBNDQpUbzogSHVhamluIEplbmc7IFlha292IFJla2h0 ZXI7IEx1Y3kgWW9uZzsgUm9uYWxkIEJvbmljYTsgTHVjeSBZb25nOyBIdWFqaW4gSmVuZzsgTHVh eSBKYWxpbDsgUm9uYWxkIEJvbmljYTsgWWFrb3YgUmVraHRlcjsgS2V5dXIgUGF0ZWw7IEtleXVy IFBhdGVsOyBMdWF5IEphbGlsDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9y IGRyYWZ0LWJvbmljYS1sM3Zwbi1vcmYtY292ZXJpbmctcHJlZml4ZXMtMDEudHh0DQoNCg0KQSBu ZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBJLUQsIGRyYWZ0LWJvbmljYS1sM3Zwbi1vcmYtY292ZXJpbmctcHJlZml4 ZXMtMDEudHh0DQpoYXMgYmVlbiBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGJ5IFJvbiBCb25pY2Eg YW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KDQpOYW1lOgkJZHJhZnQtYm9uaWNh LWwzdnBuLW9yZi1jb3ZlcmluZy1wcmVmaXhlcw0KUmV2aXNpb246CTAxDQpUaXRsZToJCUNvdmVy aW5nIFByZWZpeGVzIE91dGJvdW5kIFJvdXRlIEZpbHRlciBmb3IgQkdQLTQNCkRvY3VtZW50IGRh dGU6CTIwMTQtMDItMTMNCkdyb3VwOgkJSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uDQpQYWdlczoJCTE1 DQpVUkw6ICAgICAgICAgICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvZHJh ZnQtYm9uaWNhLWwzdnBuLW9yZi1jb3ZlcmluZy1wcmVmaXhlcy0wMS50eHQNClN0YXR1czogICAg ICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1ib25pY2EtbDN2cG4t b3JmLWNvdmVyaW5nLXByZWZpeGVzLw0KSHRtbGl6ZWQ6ICAgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWJvbmljYS1sM3Zwbi1vcmYtY292ZXJpbmctcHJlZml4ZXMtMDENCkRp ZmY6ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL3JmY2RpZmY/dXJsMj1kcmFmdC1ib25p Y2EtbDN2cG4tb3JmLWNvdmVyaW5nLXByZWZpeGVzLTAxDQoNCkFic3RyYWN0Og0KICAgVGhpcyBk b2N1bWVudCBkZWZpbmVzIGEgbmV3IE9SRi10eXBlLCBjYWxsZWQgdGhlICJDb3ZlcmluZyBQcmVm aXhlcw0KICAgT1JGIChDUC1PUkYpIi4gIENQLU9SRiBpcyBhcHBsaWNhYmxlIGluIFZpcnR1YWwg SHViLWFuZC1TcG9rZSBWUE5zLg0KICAgSXQgYWxzbyBpcyBhcHBsaWNhYmxlIGluIEJHUC9NUExT IEV0aGVybmV0IFZQTiAoRVZQTikgTmV0d29ya3MuDQoNCg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIA0KDQoNClBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRl cyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24gdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb24g YW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KVGhlIElFVEYgU2Vj cmV0YXJpYXQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Feb 18 09:26:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339001A03F9 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:26:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzHibicIkXHJ for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hoemail2.alcatel.com (hoemail2.alcatel.com [192.160.6.149]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872E51A03ED for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (h135-239-2-42.lucent.com [135.239.2.42]) by hoemail2.alcatel.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id s1IHQ9e6013573 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:26:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id s1IHQ94d018153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:26:09 +0100 Received: from [172.27.205.227] (135.239.27.40) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (135.239.2.112) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:26:09 +0100 Message-ID: <530397B0.3080907@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:26:08 +0100 From: Martin Vigoureux Organization: Alcatel-Lucent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: IETF89 - L3VPN - Agenda available - Please send your presentation material Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [135.239.27.40] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/kL9aIXGGqlE-8uOWIkinpN35tHc X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 17:26:16 -0000 All, the draft agenda is on-line: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-l3vpn As you can see there is still a lot of time available. You have until February the 24th to send us your requests. Speakers, please start sending your presentation material, and please do so before March the 3rd. Martin From nobody Sat Feb 22 11:49:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2501A0165 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:49:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fm9hTScOi81G for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f44.google.com (mail-la0-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695C71A0163 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f44.google.com with SMTP id hr13so792121lab.17 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:48:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to :user-agent; bh=KAbY815hDOr/IBStFT1cML0XRR92SmnFermrd74qNTg=; b=JZBKugMOyeVVnfCZRjCcGNq8kCQvSEXc5T2T8do2AYD/4oXET6sqYqSlwRDNA5exkF fiKb7LMae0qtCyI3vLtXHgK3vV1eFwoHvnoyfmYWH49qjsQRxMncpmui70LAD8E5Bpwf nZn4ogDByol2vpEP318HzwhUGhTNpu7kRk4C8EjU5O2iEjvw2A3LGulxsl4Ap6hro+kz Fxm2ajFp0hRF+GcNGfSTfjcj7ZDWnPzGLsIM8gNbl9x46zx3gAnkmqWf9DSX+f/heCn/ D2kEU0b9LLz+mfgrzZN6NxHM9TsqEyTgIcOMKRknu2a1xiKRxk3eHQ6huyALJGSCiQg3 sRsw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQme6jh/qoLgJbVZGfiRjeN4h8WKTg/2ZPO2g0hRd5JpvrcCcf+Pe+Fb05NFO0+FbOOB15wC X-Received: by 10.112.140.202 with SMTP id ri10mr7326200lbb.9.1393098534121; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:48:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pob.ytti.fi (up.ip.fi. [2001:6e8:288::d]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h7sm12355840lbj.1.2014.02.22.11.48.52 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Feb 2014 11:48:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 21:48:50 +0200 From: Saku Ytti To: Thomas Nadeau Subject: Re: /32s in DC and BGP Message-ID: <20140222194850.GA805@pob.ytti.fi> References: <52F9F3B8.9040502@orange.com> <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9D7C5F33-F445-458F-A7FA-76FDD14AE0A7@lucidvision.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/fy4il-_jkuLfJOw0sXUe4aA1qv8 Cc: Thomas Morin , "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" , L3VPN , Robert Raszuk X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:49:02 -0000 On (2014-02-11 09:27 -0500), Thomas Nadeau wrote: > I think you are missing the point that was raised: its not that BGP will not scale well; as a protocol its clearly shown that it can ship around millions of routes and lots of other stuff as it has become the "dump truck" of the protocol world. The question is more of the approach - do we want to be shuffling around /32s (regardless of protocol) given that there are other solutions that work well without doing so? I would also question the use of BGP in a Data Center given past operational feedback in NVO3 for example, but that is orthogonal to the question of the mechanics of this solution. One example why I think people might want L3 (i.e. shuffling around /32s) Imagine you have in your own network DC in San Francisco and New York. Subnet is advertised from San Fran. Client in New York complains high latency, so you use XLAN or what not to migrate their server to New York, to be closer to customer. Before: client -> ny -> sf -> ny -> client After: client -> ny -> sf -> ny -> sf -> ny -> client You moved server closer to customer and you doubled your latencies and reduced MTBF. It seems quite simple, vswitch runs BGP to advertise /32 hosts, uses proxy-arp to connect disconnected hosts in subnet. During convergence GRE tunnel to bounce wrongly routed packets to correct vswitch, hitlesss L3 migration with optimal routing. Why would you not want L3? -- ++ytti From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:57:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FEE1A0464 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:57:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.015 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.015 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2yisp9P5i2F0 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp07.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B911A063C for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 00:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.treizh.net ([2.11.182.11]) by mwinf5d65 with ME id WYxH1n00T0F9diS03YxHAs; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:57:22 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.treizh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2A1236EBE; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:57:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <530C5AEB.6050001@orange.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:57:15 +0100 From: Thomas Morin Organization: Orange User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: l3vpn@ietf.org Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet --> adopted References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/V3gsuwIQ-S0geGdutnXEfBj24rQ Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:57:25 -0000 Hello, This call for adoption is closed and we consider that there is consensus to adopt draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet as a working group document aiming Informational status. We have taken note of comments about limitations of the approach: the document, now a WG item, will have to document these. All working group contributors are welcome to propose text in this perspective. Authors, can you first resubmit the document as-is, as draft-ietf-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-00 ? Thanks, Martin & Thomas l3vpn co-chairs 2014-02-04, Thomas Morin: > Hello working group, > > This email starts a two-week poll on adopting > draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet [1] as a working group item. > > Please send comments to the list and state if you support adoption or > not (in the later case, please also state the reasons). > > This poll runs until February 9th. > > > *Coincidentally*, we are also polling for knowledge of any IPR that > applies to this draft, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in > compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 > and 5378 for more details). > > ==> *If you are listed as a document author or contributor* please > respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of any > relevant IPR. > > The draft will not be adopted until a response has been received from > each author and contributor. > > If you are on the L3VPN WG mailing list but are not listed as an author > or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of > any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules. > > Thank you, > > Martin & Thomas > l3vpn chairs > > [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet From nobody Tue Feb 25 17:30:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7646A1A0340 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.547, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FL2UfyxHYY3B for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0831A021C for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml203-edg.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BBN17602; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:30:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) by lhreml203-edg.huawei.com (172.18.7.221) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:30:27 +0000 Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:30:36 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.115]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:30:29 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Thomas Morin , "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet --> adopted Thread-Topic: Poll for adoption: draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet --> adopted Thread-Index: AQHPMgesV0qTH+t4+kqJol4ZLhd9W5rGv8YQ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:30:29 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0825BE2C@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <52F0ECB4.3060606@orange.com> <530C5AEB.6050001@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <530C5AEB.6050001@orange.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/qU8_KaAVBBnVyyj4A98Of_XEKms Cc: "draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet@tools.ietf.org" X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:30:43 -0000 SGkgVGhvbWFzIGFuZCBNYXJ0aW4sDQoNCj4gLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPiDlj5Hk u7bkuro6IEwzVlBOIFttYWlsdG86bDN2cG4tYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIFRob21h cyBNb3Jpbg0KPiDlj5HpgIHml7bpl7Q6IDIwMTTlubQy5pyIMjXml6UgMTY6NTcNCj4g5pS25Lu2 5Lq6OiBsM3ZwbkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiDmioTpgIE6IGRyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXZpcnR1YWwtc3Vi bmV0QHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQo+IOS4u+mimDogUmU6IFBvbGwgZm9yIGFkb3B0aW9uOiBkcmFm dC14dS1sM3Zwbi12aXJ0dWFsLXN1Ym5ldCAtLT4gYWRvcHRlZA0KPiANCj4gSGVsbG8sDQo+IA0K PiBUaGlzIGNhbGwgZm9yIGFkb3B0aW9uIGlzIGNsb3NlZCBhbmQgd2UgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhhdCB0 aGVyZSBpcyBjb25zZW5zdXMgdG8gYWRvcHQNCj4gZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJu ZXQgYXMgYSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwICBkb2N1bWVudCBhaW1pbmcNCj4gSW5mb3JtYXRpb25hbCBz dGF0dXMuDQo+IA0KPiBXZSBoYXZlIHRha2VuIG5vdGUgb2YgY29tbWVudHMgYWJvdXQgbGltaXRh dGlvbnMgb2YgdGhlIGFwcHJvYWNoOiB0aGUNCj4gZG9jdW1lbnQsIG5vdyBhIFdHIGl0ZW0sIHdp bGwgaGF2ZSB0byBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGVzZS4gQWxsIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXANCj4gY29udHJpYnV0 b3JzIGFyZSB3ZWxjb21lIHRvIHByb3Bvc2UgdGV4dCBpbiB0aGlzIHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlLg0KPiAN Cj4gQXV0aG9ycywgY2FuIHlvdSBmaXJzdCByZXN1Ym1pdCB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgYXMtaXMsIGFz DQo+IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJuZXQtMDAgPw0KDQpXZSB3aWxsIHN1Ym1p dCBpdCBvbmNlIHRoZSBzdWJtaXNzaW9uIHRvb2wgaXMgcmVvcGVuZWQuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJk cywNClhpYW9odSAob24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGNvLWF1dGhvcnMpDQoNCj4gVGhhbmtzLA0KPiANCj4g TWFydGluICYgVGhvbWFzDQo+IGwzdnBuIGNvLWNoYWlycw0KPiANCj4gDQo+IDIwMTQtMDItMDQs IFRob21hcyBNb3JpbjoNCj4gPiBIZWxsbyB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwLA0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhpcyBl bWFpbCBzdGFydHMgYSB0d28td2VlayBwb2xsIG9uIGFkb3B0aW5nDQo+ID4gZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2 cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJuZXQgWzFdIGFzIGEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBpdGVtLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4g UGxlYXNlIHNlbmQgY29tbWVudHMgdG8gdGhlIGxpc3QgYW5kIHN0YXRlIGlmIHlvdSBzdXBwb3J0 IGFkb3B0aW9uIG9yDQo+ID4gbm90IChpbiB0aGUgbGF0ZXIgY2FzZSwgcGxlYXNlIGFsc28gc3Rh dGUgdGhlIHJlYXNvbnMpLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhpcyBwb2xsIHJ1bnMgdW50aWwgRmVicnVhcnkg OXRoLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPiAqQ29pbmNpZGVudGFsbHkqLCB3ZSBhcmUgYWxzbyBwb2xsaW5n IGZvciBrbm93bGVkZ2Ugb2YgYW55IElQUiB0aGF0DQo+ID4gYXBwbGllcyB0byB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0 LCB0byBlbnN1cmUgdGhhdCBJUFIgaGFzIGJlZW4gZGlzY2xvc2VkIGluDQo+ID4gY29tcGxpYW5j ZSB3aXRoIElFVEYgSVBSIHJ1bGVzIChzZWUgUkZDcyAzOTc5LCA0ODc5LCAzNjY5IGFuZCA1Mzc4 IGZvcg0KPiA+IG1vcmUgZGV0YWlscykuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiA9PT4gKklmIHlvdSBhcmUgbGlzdGVk IGFzIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQgYXV0aG9yIG9yIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yKiBwbGVhc2UNCj4gPiByZXNwb25k IHRvIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgYW5kIGluZGljYXRlIHdoZXRoZXIgb3Igbm90IHlvdSBhcmUgYXdhcmUg b2YgYW55DQo+ID4gcmVsZXZhbnQgSVBSLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhlIGRyYWZ0IHdpbGwgbm90IGJl IGFkb3B0ZWQgdW50aWwgYSByZXNwb25zZSBoYXMgYmVlbiByZWNlaXZlZCBmcm9tDQo+ID4gZWFj aCBhdXRob3IgYW5kIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBvbiB0aGUgTDNW UE4gV0cgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IGJ1dCBhcmUgbm90IGxpc3RlZCBhcyBhbg0KPiA+IGF1dGhvciBv ciBjb250cmlidXRvciwgdGhlbiBwbGVhc2UgZXhwbGljaXRseSByZXNwb25kIG9ubHkgaWYgeW91 IGFyZQ0KPiA+IGF3YXJlIG9mIGFueSBJUFIgdGhhdCBoYXMgbm90IHlldCBiZWVuIGRpc2Nsb3Nl ZCBpbiBjb25mb3JtYW5jZSB3aXRoIElFVEYNCj4gcnVsZXMuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGFuayB5b3Us DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBNYXJ0aW4gJiBUaG9tYXMNCj4gPiBsM3ZwbiBjaGFpcnMNCj4gPg0KPiA+IFsx XSBodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC14dS1sM3Zwbi12aXJ0dWFsLXN1Ym5l dA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 25 23:11:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049D31A02E5 for ; 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Wed, 26 Feb 2014 07:11:10 +0000 Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 07:11:20 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.115]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 15:11:13 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-prefix-orf-00.txt Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-prefix-orf-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPGBn6aHlZ4GSohEyZRkRYMTob6JrHUU7Q Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 07:11:12 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0825BF0B@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/FUh013XQdv-WnXC8UVf5ENvnPpU X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 07:11:30 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpBbnkgY29tbWVudHMgYXJlIHdlbGNvbWUuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNClhp YW9odQ0KDQo+IC0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCj4g5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBpbnRlcm5ldC1k cmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzppbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmddDQo+IOWPkemA geaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDHmnIgyM+aXpSAxNzowMw0KPiDmlLbku7bkuro6IFh1eGlhb2h1OyBY dXhpYW9odQ0KPiDkuLvpopg6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQteHUt bDN2cG4tcHJlZml4LW9yZi0wMC50eHQNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBBIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIEktRCwg ZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tcHJlZml4LW9yZi0wMC50eHQgaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5DQo+ IHN1Ym1pdHRlZCBieSBYaWFvaHUgWHUgYW5kIHBvc3RlZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5 Lg0KPiANCj4gTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXByZWZpeC1vcmYNCj4gUmV2aXNpb246CTAw DQo+IFRpdGxlOgkJVlBOIEFkZHJlc3MgUHJlZml4IEJhc2VkIE91dGJvdW5kIFJvdXRlIEZpbHRl ciBmb3IgQkdQLTQNCj4gRG9jdW1lbnQgZGF0ZToJMjAxNC0wMS0yMw0KPiBHcm91cDoJCUluZGl2 aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KPiBQYWdlczoJCTQNCj4gVVJMOg0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC14dS1sM3Zwbi1wcmVmaXgtb3JmLTAwLnR4dA0KPiBT dGF0dXM6ICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQteHUt bDN2cG4tcHJlZml4LW9yZi8NCj4gSHRtbGl6ZWQ6ICAgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXByZWZpeC1vcmYtMDANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBBYnN0cmFjdDoN Cj4gICAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBkZWZpbmVzIGEgbmV3IE91dGJvdW5kIFJvdXRlciBGaWx0ZXIg KE9SRikgdHlwZSBmb3INCj4gICAgQkdQLCByZWZlcmVkIHRvIGFzICJWUE4gQWRkcmVzcyBQcmVm aXggT3V0Ym91bmQgUm91dGUgRmlsdGVyIiwgdGhhdA0KPiAgICBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCB0byBwZXJm b3JtIFZQTiBhZGRyZXNzLXByZWZpeC1iYXNlZCByb3V0ZSBmaWx0ZXJpbmcuDQo+ICAgIFRoaXMg T1JGLXR5cGUgc3VwcG9ydHMgcHJlZml4LWxlbmd0aC0gb3IgcmFuZ2UtYmFzZWQgbWF0Y2hpbmcs IHdpbGQtDQo+ICAgIGNhcmQtYmFzZWQgYWRkcmVzcyBwcmVmaXggbWF0Y2hpbmcsIGFzIHdlbGwg YXMgdGhlIGV4YWN0IGFkZHJlc3MNCj4gICAgcHJlZml4IG1hdGNoaW5nIGZvciBWUE4gYWRkcmVz cyBmYW1pbGllcy4gIFRoZSBWUE4gQWRkcmVzcyBQcmVmaXggT1JGDQo+ICAgIGlzIGFwcGxpY2Fi bGUgaW4gdGhlIGNvbnRleHQgb2YgVmlydHVhbCBTdWJuZXQgYW5kIG1heSBhbHNvIGJlDQo+ICAg IGFwcGxpY2FibGUgaW4gb3RoZXIgQkdQL01QTFMgSVAgVlBOIGVudmlyb25tZW50cy4NCj4gDQo+ IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWlu dXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCj4gdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZl cnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCj4gDQo+IFRo ZSBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0DQoNCg== From nobody Thu Feb 27 00:02:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FD21A0049 for ; 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Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:02:11 +0000 Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:02:24 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.115]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:02:17 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: "l3vpn@ietf.org" Subject: fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-fib-reduction-00.txt Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xu-l3vpn-virtual-subnet-fib-reduction-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHPKWvQn6oroZCjpk+AIr1SfT6K2JrI0J8w Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:02:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0825C482@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/SNvalhtfs119Dx33iUA5HHNhqPg X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:02:50 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpBbnkgY29tbWVudHMgYXJlIHdlbGNvbWUuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNClhp YW9odQ0KDQo+IC0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCj4g5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBpbnRlcm5ldC1k cmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzppbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmddDQo+IOWPkemA geaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDLmnIgxNOaXpSAxODowMg0KPiDmlLbku7bkuro6IEJyZW5kYW4gRmVl OyBCcmVuZGFuIEZlZTsgU3VzYW4gSGFyZXM7IFlvbmdiaW5nIEZhbjsgWHV4aWFvaHU7DQo+IFh1 eGlhb2h1OyBDaHJpc3RpYW4gSmFjcXVlbmV0OyBUcnVtYW4gQm95ZXM7IFRydW1hbiBCb3llczsg Q2hyaXN0aWFuDQo+IEphY3F1ZW5ldDsgU3VzYW4gSGFyZXM7IEZhbiBZb25nYmluZw0KPiDkuLvp opg6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3INCj4gZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVh bC1zdWJuZXQtZmliLXJlZHVjdGlvbi0wMC50eHQNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBBIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9m IEktRCwgZHJhZnQteHUtbDN2cG4tdmlydHVhbC1zdWJuZXQtZmliLXJlZHVjdGlvbi0wMC50eHQN Cj4gaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bGx5IHN1Ym1pdHRlZCBieSBYaWFvaHUgWHUgYW5kIHBvc3Rl ZCB0byB0aGUgSUVURiByZXBvc2l0b3J5Lg0KPiANCj4gTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXZp cnR1YWwtc3VibmV0LWZpYi1yZWR1Y3Rpb24NCj4gUmV2aXNpb246CTAwDQo+IFRpdGxlOgkJRklC IFJlZHVjdGlvbiBpbiBWaXJ0dWFsIFN1Ym5ldA0KPiBEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOgkyMDE0LTAyLTE0 DQo+IEdyb3VwOgkJSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJtaXNzaW9uDQo+IFBhZ2VzOgkJNg0KPiBVUkw6DQo+ IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXZpcnR1 YWwtc3VibmV0LWZpYi1yZWR1Y3Rpb24NCj4gLTAwLnR4dA0KPiBTdGF0dXM6DQo+IGh0dHBzOi8v ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LXh1LWwzdnBuLXZpcnR1YWwtc3VibmV0LWZp Yi1yZWR1Y3Rpb24vDQo+IEh0bWxpemVkOg0KPiBodHRwOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9k cmFmdC14dS1sM3Zwbi12aXJ0dWFsLXN1Ym5ldC1maWItcmVkdWN0aW9uLTAwDQo+IA0KPiANCj4g QWJzdHJhY3Q6DQo+ICAgIFZpcnR1YWwgU3VibmV0IGlzIGEgTDNWUE4tYmFzZWQgc3VibmV0IGV4 dGVuc2lvbiBzb2x1dGlvbiB3aGljaCBjYW4NCj4gICAgYmUgdXNlZCB0byBidWlsZCBMYXllcjMg bmV0d29yayB2aXJ0dWFsaXphdGlvbiBvdmVybGF5cyB3aXRoaW4gYW5kL29yDQo+ICAgIGFjcm9z cyBkYXRhIGNlbnRlcnMuIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIGEgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGZvciBy ZWR1Y2luZw0KPiAgICB0aGUgRklCIHNpemUgb2YgUEUgcm91dGVycyBpbiB0aGUgVmlydHVhbCBT dWJuZXQgY29udGV4dC4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5 IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24NCj4g dW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0b29s cy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0DQoNCg== From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:25:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: l3vpn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DFD1A02A7; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:25:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SDc2V3t4TM-5; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E72A1A0665; Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:25:18 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Subject: Protocol Action: 'Multipoint Label Distribution Protocol In-Band Signaling in a VRF Context' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling-03.txt) X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.0.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140227222518.19238.84543.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 14:25:18 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3vpn/zhCLC4kIMRDl2aRA_GvNrRCmC5k Cc: l3vpn chair , l3vpn mailing list , RFC Editor X-BeenThere: l3vpn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:25:22 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Multipoint Label Distribution Protocol In-Band Signaling in a VRF Context' (draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling-03.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Layer 3 Virtual Private Networks Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Stewart Bryant and Adrian Farrel. A URL of this Internet Draft is: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l3vpn-mldp-vrf-in-band-signaling/ Technical Summary An IP Multicast Distribution Tree (MDT) may traverse both label switching (i.e. - Multi-Protocol Label Switching, or MPLS) and non- label switching regions of a network. Typically the MDT begins and ends in non-MPLS regions, but travels through an MPLS region. In such cases, it can be useful to begin building the MDT as a pure IP MDT, then convert it to an MPLS Multipoint Label Switched Path (MP- LSP) when it enters an MPLS-enabled region, and then convert it back to a pure IP MDT when it enters a non-MPLS-enabled region. Other documents specify the procedures for building such a hybrid MDT, using Protocol Independent Multicast (PIM) in the non-MPLS region of the network, and using Multipoint Extensions to Label Distribution Protocol (mLDP) in the MPLS region. This document extends those procedures to handle the case where the link connecting the two regions is a "Virtual Routing and Forwarding Table" (VRF) link, as defined in the "BGP IP/MPLS VPN" specifications. However, this document is primarily aimed at particular use cases where VRFs are used to support multicast applications other than Multicast VPN. Working Group Summary The WG supports this Document and its progress. Document Quality Two implementations of this protocol specification are known. The Document has been reviewed by experts and these experts are acknowledged in the appropriate section of the Document. Personnel Martin Vigoureux (L3VPN co-chair) is the Document Shepherd Stewart Bryant is the Responsible Area Director RFC Editor Note At the end of the Security section, new para: Operators MUST configure packet filters to ensure that the mechanism described in this memo does not cause non-global-scoped IPv6 multicast packets to be tunneled outside their intended scope. ==== The last but on paragraph of Section 1 OLD encoded into the mLDP FEC element. NEW encoded into the mLDP FEC element in what this document terms "mLDP in-band signaling." END ===== - 1 page 5: too many 'o' in 'co-oordination' ==== Please add the following terms to Terminology UMH: Upstream Multicast Hop, the upstream router in that is in the path to reach the source of the multicast flow. RPA: Rendezvous Point Address, the address that is used as the root of the distribution tree for a range of multicast groups. RD: Route Distinguisher, an identifier that makes a route unique in the context of a VRF.