From muraris@microsoft.com Wed Jul 1 18:07:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1553A689D for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:07:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3ZrJJ6pmV7G for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F043728C0FE for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:07:18 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C110.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.150]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:07:18 -0700 From: Murari Sridharan To: Murari Sridharan , "ledbat@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:07:17 -0700 Thread-Topic: Progress, Agendas and such Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AEPpXLg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FCA794787FDE0D4DBE9FFA11053ECEB6231E68CAAENAEXMSGC110re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:07:03 -0000 --_000_FCA794787FDE0D4DBE9FFA11053ECEB6231E68CAAENAEXMSGC110re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ping? It would be good to get explicit sign off otherwise I'll have to assu= me nobody has any objections. From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Murari Sridharan Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM To: ledbat@ietf.org Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make q= uite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, what = action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward. We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. For = starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions, = here is what we have so far. draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm inclu= ding whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target. Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage, espec= ially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows for ther= e to be effective statistical multiplexing? It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield implement= ation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be easy to study= the dynamics in NS for instance. It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulatio= n and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o= f this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific in= formation and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely c= alls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the questi= ons raised in the mailing lists. There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item and= then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no al= ternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adopting= this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we should= go ahead with this plan. draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next v= ersion from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopted = as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft i= ncorporating the comments. draft-welzl-ledbat-survey This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people hadn'= t read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to Mi= chael. Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft ab= ove will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions= to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenf= ield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to h= ave you come up and present your findings as well. Thanks Murari --_000_FCA794787FDE0D4DBE9FFA11053ECEB6231E68CAAENAEXMSGC110re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ping? It would be good t= o get explicit sign off otherwise I’ll have to assume nobody has any object= ions.

 =

From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Murari Sridharan
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such

 

Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting = and we need to make quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where thing= s stand, what action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward= .

 

We have the following documents and none of these so f= ar are WG items. For starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions, here is what we have so far.

 

d= raft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion

There have been some fairness concerns raised regardin= g the algorithm including whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target.

Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first m= over advantage, especially inside a home environment where there are not too man= y flows for there to be effective statistical multiplexing?

 

It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and sho= uld be easy to study the dynamics in NS for instance.

It would be good to see data on how the algorithm beha= ves both in simulation and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let u= s know how much of this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any u= ser specific information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely calls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some o= f the questions raised in the mailing lists.

 

There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt = this as a WG item and then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right no= w there is no alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in fav= or of adopting this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objection= s we should go ahead with this plan.

 

draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations

There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forwa= rd to seeing a next version from the authors but I believe this one is also ready= to be adopted as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revi= sed draft incorporating the comments.

 

draft-we= lzl-ledbat-survey

This is a pretty good summary of the related research = but many people hadn’t read it at the last IETF it would be great if you = can send feedback to Michael.

 

Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for = a slot. Each draft above will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenfield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further = it would be good to have you come up and present your findings as well. <= /o:p>

 

Thanks

Murari

--_000_FCA794787FDE0D4DBE9FFA11053ECEB6231E68CAAENAEXMSGC110re_-- From rpenno@juniper.net Fri Jul 3 14:03:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E363A6E90 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:03:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WP0gXWI-Oj0N for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og111.obsmtp.com (exprod7og111.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BFB3A6E7E for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob111.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKSk5yJFx/6YMN7iZffOKN2VOeHkSX9H25@postini.com; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:03:46 PDT Received: from p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.25) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.375.2; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:59:16 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::8002:d3e7:4146:af5f]) by p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::c126:c633:d2dc:8090%11]) with mapi; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:59:16 -0400 From: Reinaldo Penno To: Murari Sridharan , "ledbat@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:59:15 -0400 Thread-Topic: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AFrm4Nq Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:03:24 -0000 I'm working on a new version of draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations-00 based on the feedback I got during the last meeting. On 6/26/09 8:28 AM, "Murari Sridharan" wrote: > Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make > quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, wh= at > action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward. > =20 > We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. Fo= r > starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions= , > here is what we have so far. > =20 > draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion > > There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm > including whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target. > Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage, > especially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows f= or > there to be effective statistical multiplexing? > =20 > It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield > implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be ea= sy to > study the dynamics in NS for instance. > It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulat= ion > and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o= f > this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific > information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definite= ly > calls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the > questions raised in the mailing lists. > =20 >=20 > There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item a= nd > then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no > alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adop= ting > this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we shoul= d go > ahead with this plan. > =20 > draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations > txt>=20 > There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next > version from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopt= ed as > a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft > incorporating the comments. > =20 > draft-welzl-ledbat-survey > > This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people had= n=B9t > read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to > Michael.=20 > =20 > Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft = above > will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions t= o be > had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenfield > implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to have= you > come up and present your findings as well. > =20 > Thanks > Murari=20 From muraris@microsoft.com Sat Jul 4 14:04:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838153A684D for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IRtksnqQc+Pv for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F70B3A6838 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:05:14 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C110.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.150]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:05:13 -0700 From: Murari Sridharan To: Reinaldo Penno , "ledbat@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 14:04:39 -0700 Thread-Topic: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AFrm4NqADJ7DK0= Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 21:04:56 -0000 Do you have an ETA for when you will have a draft we can review? Thanks ________________________________________ From: Reinaldo Penno [rpenno@juniper.net] Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 1:59 PM To: Murari Sridharan; ledbat@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such I'm working on a new version of draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations-00 based on the feedback I got during the last meeting. On 6/26/09 8:28 AM, "Murari Sridharan" wrote: > Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make > quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, wh= at > action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward. > > We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. Fo= r > starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions= , > here is what we have so far. > > draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion > > There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm > including whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target. > Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage, > especially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows f= or > there to be effective statistical multiplexing? > > It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield > implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be ea= sy to > study the dynamics in NS for instance. > It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulat= ion > and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o= f > this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific > information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definite= ly > calls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the > questions raised in the mailing lists. > > > There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item a= nd > then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no > alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adop= ting > this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we shoul= d go > ahead with this plan. > > draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations > txt> > There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next > version from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopt= ed as > a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft > incorporating the comments. > > draft-welzl-ledbat-survey > > This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people had= n=B9t > read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to > Michael. > > Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft = above > will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions t= o be > had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenfield > implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to have= you > come up and present your findings as well. > > Thanks > Murari= From rbriscoe@jungle.bt.co.uk Mon Jul 6 07:28:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDDD93A688A for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.972 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.972 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.145, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8qKT18Xp8Kb for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0723A6936 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.71]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:24:30 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.100.81]) by i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:24:30 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 124689027079; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:24:30 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.215.130.87]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id n66EOQxp017762; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:24:26 +0100 Message-Id: <200907061424.n66EOQxp017762@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:24:32 +0100 To: Lars Eggert From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: <3C4E2A7B-9634-4E22-BD6B-3AE49D16948C@nokia.com> References: <3C4E2A7B-9634-4E22-BD6B-3AE49D16948C@nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2009 14:24:30.0515 (UTC) FILETIME=[79B93830:01C9FE45] Cc: "ledbat@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ledbat] Ledbat variants X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:28:29 -0000 Lars, Murari, A specific example: Measuring one-way delay, which: - isn't trivial to add to most existing protocols - requiring a new option - isn't typically incrementally deployable at only one end Nonetheless, it's good for a congestion control to avoid getting confused by delay on the return path. However, if we take the view that avoiding this confusion is a luxury and incremental deployment is more important, we'll never actually get rid of being confused by return path delays. It is better to have a protocol that will do one-way delay where it can, but fall back to two-way only if it can't. Bob At 08:42 29/06/2009, Lars Eggert wrote: >Hi, > >On 2009-6-26, at 18:46, Murari Sridharan wrote: >>In our charter we have text that says applications of this algorithm >>to existing transport protocols is expected to occur in WGs that >>maintain those protocols be it TCP, DCCP or SCTP. Does that mean a >>ledbat variant such as above gets discussed in TCPM or ICCRG or >>should we take a stab at it here and move it to ICCRG at some later >>point? > >the - maybe naive - assumption behind the charter text was that LEDBAT >would produce one experimental CC algorithm that could then be applied >to different transport protocols in whatever WG maintains those >protocols. > >The issue you raise - what if "the" LEDBAT algorithm requires input or >behavior that one of the protocols can't provide? - is interesting, >and I don't think we thought about this case at chartering time. > >My personal preference would be to still try and come up with one >simple algorithm that can actually be applied to several of our >transport protocols. The reason is that it'll be difficult enough to >model, simulate and experimentally vet this one algorithm, and >multiplying this effort will require many more cycles. On the other >hand, if someone came up with a really good LBE algorithm that for >example only worked for DCCP, I don't see why we wouldn't want to >publish this in some form (in cooperation with the DCCP WG, in this >example case.) But I don't think we should fragment the effort into >per-protocol algorithms unless we really need to. > >On 2009-6-26, at 18:46, Murari Sridharan wrote: >>There is a need for ledbat type CC as an alternative congestion >>control on TCP. > >True. I may be naive again, but the draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion >algorithm is adapted from TCP Vegas - do we not believe that it would >work when re-applied to TCP? > >>The difference here is that it has to work within TCP as a form of >>congestion control (or flow control). There are several applications >>(not including P2P apps) that require this behavior. The main >>differences are a) there is no additional framing other than TCP >>framing b) it should be incrementally deployable, that is only one >>end (sender or receiver) needs to change as you may not always have >>control over both ends c) given it would work within TCP it would >>react to RTT (as opposed to one-way delay) and as a result will be >>affected by reverse path congestion. > >(b) is a new requirement that during the chartering phase wasn't >discussed much. Obviously, it'd be nice if a one-ended algorithm would >work, but I'd worry that we're lopping off too much of the design >space if we make this a hard requirement. > >>Even though one of the ledbat requirements is to saturate the >>bottleneck there are applications that are perfectly fine without >>saturating the link as long as some basic guarantees on flow >>completion. > > >This is again diverging a bit from the goals of the charter. I don't >think that anyone would be seriously concerned if we came up with an >otherwise good algorithm that in some corner cases can't fill the >bottleneck, but if we came up with one that'd never saturate the >bottleneck, I'd expect the bulk transfer folks to argue a bit. > >Lars > > > > >_______________________________________________ >ledbat mailing list >ledbat@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat _________________________________________________________________________ Notice: This contribution is the personal view of the author and does not necessarily reflect the technical nor commercial direction of BT plc. _________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research From muraris@microsoft.com Tue Jul 14 00:41:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F213E3A6DAD for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id phshpkMSAyF3 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FF83A6D53 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.7.153) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:39:02 -0700 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC121.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.1.133]) by TK5EX14HUBC101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.7.153]) with mapi; Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:39:02 -0700 From: Murari Sridharan To: Murari Sridharan , "ledbat@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Progress, Agendas and such Thread-Index: Acn2crF8+oXvFLneRJOiAjioodke2AEPpXLgAmkfJr0= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:36:13 +0000 Message-ID: <03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EF@TK5EX14MBXC121.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EFTK5EX14MBXC121red_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:41:40 -0000 --_000_03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EFTK5EX14MBXC121red_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We'll go ahead and adopt these as WG documents in Sweden. The agenda should= be the same as what i outlined earlier in email. Stas/Lars, I am sending you a mail regarding this but i thought i'll let th= e list know so we can prepare accordingly. I had a family emergency and had= to rush to India urgently, i also had to withdraw my swedish visa applicat= ion in the middle so i can get back my passport to travel. Given where thin= gs stand i may have to miss the meeting. I'll coordinate with you regarding= the same. Thanks ________________________________ From: Murari Sridharan Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:07 PM To: Murari Sridharan; ledbat@ietf.org Subject: RE: Progress, Agendas and such Ping? It would be good to get explicit sign off otherwise I=92ll have to as= sume nobody has any objections. From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Murari Sridharan Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM To: ledbat@ietf.org Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meeting and we need to make q= uite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of where things stand, what = action items we have and a proposed plan to move things forward. We have the following documents and none of these so far are WG items. For = starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then continue discussions, = here is what we have so far. draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion There have been some fairness concerns raised regarding the algorithm inclu= ding whether the controller should aim to move delay to a target. Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first mover advantage, espec= ially inside a home environment where there are not too many flows for ther= e to be effective statistical multiplexing? It would be good to get some folks on the list to do a Greenfield implement= ation. The control algorithm is straightforward and should be easy to study= the dynamics in NS for instance. It would be good to see data on how the algorithm behaves both in simulatio= n and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do let us know how much o= f this data you can share, you can of course anonymize any user specific in= formation and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely c= alls for reversion of your document answering/clarifying some of the questi= ons raised in the mailing lists. There is work to do but I think we are ready to adopt this as a WG item and= then continue working on improving the algorithm. Right now there is no al= ternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) hum in favor of adopting= this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we should= go ahead with this plan. draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking forward to seeing a next v= ersion from the authors but I believe this one is also ready to be adopted = as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we can see a revised draft i= ncorporating the comments. draft-welzl-ledbat-survey This is a pretty good summary of the related research but many people hadn= =92t read it at the last IETF it would be great if you can send feedback to= Michael. Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked for a slot. Each draft ab= ove will get one slot. There are a ton of interesting questions/discussions= to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. If somebody did a Greenf= ield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to h= ave you come up and present your findings as well. Thanks Murari --_000_03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EFTK5EX14MBXC121red_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We'll go ahead and adopt these as WG documents in Sweden. The agenda s= hould be the same as what i outlined earlier in email.
 
Stas/Lars, I am sending you a mail regarding this but i thought i'll l= et the list know so we can prepare accordingly. I had a family emergency an= d had to rush to India urgently, i also had to withdraw my swedish visa app= lication in the middle so i can get back my passport to travel. Given where things stand i may have t= o miss the meeting. I'll coordinate with you regarding the same.
 
Thanks
 
From: Murari Srid= haran
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:07 PM
To: Murari Sridharan; ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Progress, Agendas and such

Ping? It would be goo= d to get explicit sign off otherwise I=92ll have to assume nobody has any o= bjections.

 

From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Murari Sridharan
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 8:28 AM
To: ledbat@ietf.org
Subject: [ledbat] Progress, Agendas and such

 

Folks, we are getting closer to the Stockholm meetin= g and we need to make quite a bit of progress. This mail is a summary of wh= ere things stand, what action items we have and a proposed plan to move thi= ngs forward.

 

We have the following documents and none of these so= far are WG items. For starters we need to adopt these as WG items and then= continue discussions, here is what we have so far.

 

draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion=

There have been some fairness concerns raised regard= ing the algorithm including whether the controller should aim to move delay= to a target.

Should the target be a fixed value? Is there a first= mover advantage, especially inside a home environment where there are not = too many flows for there to be effective statistical multiplexing?

 

It would be good to get some folks on the list to do= a Greenfield implementation. The control algorithm is straightforward and = should be easy to study the dynamics in NS for instance.

It would be good to see data on how the algorithm be= haves both in simulation and from field trials that Stas performed. Stas do= let us know how much of this data you can share, you can of course anonymi= ze any user specific information and show us graphs depicting specific behavior. This definitely calls for reve= rsion of your document answering/clarifying some of the questions raised in= the mailing lists.

 

There is work to do but I think we are ready to adop= t this as a WG item and then continue working on improving the algorithm. R= ight now there is no alternative proposal. We did get a informal (verbal) h= um in favor of adopting this as a WG item in SFO. Unless anybody has specific objections we should go ahead = with this plan.

 

draft-penno-ledb= at-app-practices-recommendations

There was a ton of feedback on this I am looking for= ward to seeing a next version from the authors but I believe this one is al= so ready to be adopted as a WG item. Reinaldo please let us know when we ca= n see a revised draft incorporating the comments.

 

draft-welzl-ledbat-survey

This is a pretty good summary of the related researc= h but many people hadn=92t read it at the last IETF it would be great if yo= u can send feedback to Michael.

 

Regarding the agenda for Stockholm. Michael asked fo= r a slot. Each draft above will get one slot. There are a ton of interestin= g questions/discussions to be had on the ledbat congestion control front. I= f somebody did a Greenfield implementation or analyzes the algorithm further it would be good to have you come up and= present your findings as well.

 

Thanks

Murari

--_000_03520536067DF14395EA93FE7ECFDCF001D1EFTK5EX14MBXC121red_-- From shalunov@bittorrent.com Fri Jul 17 13:30:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B514528C206 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7zIkEQ2ZoDMF for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f228.google.com (mail-bw0-f228.google.com [209.85.218.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790463A6C89 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz28 with SMTP id 28so953848bwz.37 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.110.211 with SMTP id o19mr711136fap.57.1247862659518; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:30:59 -0700 Message-ID: <6c82d1360907171330u289faa61i3b90f04e7f60ed0f@mail.gmail.com> From: Stanislav Shalunov To: ledbat@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Bernard Aboba Subject: [ledbat] Bernard Aboba will act as LEDBAT cochair in Stockholm in Murari's stead X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:30:32 -0000 As Murari mentioned, he will have to skip the Stockholm meeting due to a family emergency. Bernard Aboba has stepped forward to act in his stead during the Stockholm meeting. Thank you, Bernard! Bernard is planning to send out the draft agenda shortly. Thanks, -- Stas -- Stanislav Shalunov BitTorrent Inc shalunov@bittorrent.com personal: http://shlang.com From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Fri Jul 17 16:31:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7715D3A68BF for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.082 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.082 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_BAYES_6x6=0.4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dpxW2BEDlgcR for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s14.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s14.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D363A6B2E for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU137-W8 ([65.55.111.137]) by blu0-omc4-s14.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:31:54 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_" X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.101] From: Bernard Aboba To: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:31:54 -0700 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2009 23:31:54.0610 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4DFA520:01CA0736] Subject: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take One X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:31:21 -0000 --_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75. Edit= s/additions/deletions welcome.=20 =20 LEDBAT WG Meeting IETF 75=2C Stockholm=2C Sweden Congreshall B Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009 =20 Chairs: S. Shalunov M. Sridharan B. Aboba (acting) =20 13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes) Note well Blue Sheets Minute Takers Jabber Scribe Agenda bashing Document Status Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (60 minutes) =20 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT)=2C S. Shaluno= v (30 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion =20 13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minute= s)=20 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations Individual Submissions (30 minutes) =20 14:10 =96 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M= . Welzl (30 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey =20 Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes) =20 14:40 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (20 minutes) =20 =20 --_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75. = =3B Edits/additions/deletions welcome.
 =3B
LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75=2C Stockholm=2C Sweden
Congreshall B
Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009
 =3B
Chairs: =3B S. Shalunov
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B&nbs= p=3B =3B =3B M. Sridharan
 =3B =3B =3B =3B = =3B =3B =3B =3B B. Aboba (acting)
 =3B
13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes)
Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashin= g
Document Status

Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (6= 0 minutes)
 =3B
13:10 - 13:40 =3B Low Extra Delay Background =3B Transport (LEDBAT)= =2C S. Shalunov (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-c= ongestion
 =3B
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minute= s)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices= -recommendations

Individual Submissions (30 minutes)
 =3B
14:10 =96 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M= . Welzl (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey
 =3B
Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes)
 =3B
14:40 =96 15:00 Chairs &=3B Area Directors (20 minutes)

 =3B
 =3B
= --_1acbb001-efa5-488d-b7ca-4d8e90338149_-- From michawe@ulrik.uio.no Fri Jul 17 23:52:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F2E3A6FA0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LNr0qd3S0m5z for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out1.uio.no (mail-out1.uio.no [129.240.10.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D259C3A6F8D for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx2.uio.no ([129.240.10.30]) by mail-out1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MS3mM-0003FB-Bn; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:52:18 +0200 Received: from w3prod-wm02.uio.no ([129.240.4.215] helo=webmail.uio.no) by mail-mx2.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) user michawe (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MS3mL-0007iA-KX; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:52:18 +0200 Received: from 84.48.218.182 (SquirrelMail authenticated user michawe) by webmail.uio.no with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:52:18 +0200 Message-ID: <944ad5c2aa5b00c3066500dab4b19821.squirrel@webmail.uio.no> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:52:18 +0200 From: michawe@ifi.uio.no To: "Bernard Aboba" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 11 msgs/h 3 sum rcpts/h 11 sum msgs/h 3 total rcpts 2012 max rcpts/h 33 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=_URIID_) X-UiO-Scanned: 9401022761EF8BF0741749DDCF3A726E204D8057 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.4.215 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 19 total 1509232 max/h 707 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Cc: ledbat@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take One X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 06:52:25 -0000 Hi, Since I see this split in "consideration for adoption" and "individual submissions" (mine only) - sorry if I haven't explicitly said so, but my intention was also to request that my document would become a WG item. I think I won't need 30 minutes, 20 would be enough. Cheers, Michael > > Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75. > Edits/additions/deletions welcome. > > > > LEDBAT WG Meeting > IETF 75, Stockholm, Sweden > > Congreshall B > > Wednesday, July 29, 2009 > > > > Chairs: S. Shalunov > M. Sridharan > B. Aboba (acting) > > > > 13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes) > > Note well > Blue Sheets > Minute Takers > Jabber Scribe > Agenda bashing > Document Status > > > Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (60 minutes) > > > > 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT), S. Shalunov > (30 minutes) > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion > > > > 13:40 ? 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 minutes) > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations > > > Individual Submissions (30 minutes) > > > > 14:10 ? 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols, M. > Welzl (30 minutes) > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey > > > > Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes) > > > > 14:40 ? 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (20 minutes) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ledbat mailing list > ledbat@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat > From shalunov@bittorrent.com Sat Jul 18 02:52:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197353A67D9 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:52:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WGUBl-UHrDIK for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-px0-f178.google.com (mail-px0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDB13A69FE for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pxi8 with SMTP id 8so75986pxi.29 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.61.19 with SMTP id j19mr3192837waa.165.1247910545147; Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.105? (c-67-188-254-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.188.254.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n30sm4919357wag.41.2009.07.18.02.49.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:49:03 -0700 (PDT) References: <944ad5c2aa5b00c3066500dab4b19821.squirrel@webmail.uio.no> Message-Id: From: Stanislav Shalunov To: "michawe@ifi.uio.no" In-Reply-To: <944ad5c2aa5b00c3066500dab4b19821.squirrel@webmail.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7A341) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7A341) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:48:42 -0700 Cc: Bernard Aboba , "ledbat@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take One X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:52:39 -0000 Michael, We should find a way to get your excellent draft published. At this point, the only reason it's listed as an individual submission is that we don't yet have AD permission to put it on the charter. The meeting, however, will be an obvious time to clear this with the WG and the ADs. Thank you again for contributing this, -- Stas Stanislav Shalunov On Jul 17, 2009, at 11:52 PM, michawe@ifi.uio.no wrote: > Hi, > > Since I see this split in "consideration for adoption" > and "individual submissions" (mine only) - sorry if > I haven't explicitly said so, but my intention was also > to request that my document would become a WG item. > > I think I won't need 30 minutes, 20 would be enough. > > Cheers, > Michael > > >> >> Find enclosed a strawman agenda for the LEDBAT WG meeting at IETF 75. >> Edits/additions/deletions welcome. >> >> >> >> LEDBAT WG Meeting >> IETF 75, Stockholm, Sweden >> >> Congreshall B >> >> Wednesday, July 29, 2009 >> >> >> >> Chairs: S. Shalunov >> M. Sridharan >> B. Aboba (acting) >> >> >> >> 13:00 - 15:00 Preliminaries (10 minutes) >> >> Note well >> Blue Sheets >> Minute Takers >> Jabber Scribe >> Agenda bashing >> Document Status >> >> >> Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (60 >> minutes) >> >> >> >> 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT), S. >> Shalunov >> (30 minutes) >> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion >> >> >> >> 13:40 ? 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 >> minutes) >> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations >> >> >> Individual Submissions (30 minutes) >> >> >> >> 14:10 ? 14:40 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport >> Protocols, M. >> Welzl (30 minutes) >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey >> >> >> >> Next Steps and Wrapup (20 minutes) >> >> >> >> 14:40 ? 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (20 minutes) >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ledbat mailing list >> ledbat@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ledbat mailing list > ledbat@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 20:48:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231213A68D1 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.415, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_BAYES_6x6=0.4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XMwGWNpXUBCa for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s28.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s28.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132793A6885 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU137-W6 ([65.55.111.137]) by blu0-omc4-s28.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_a6e1ceed-b1b8-45b7-9a76-804056c18e80_" X-Originating-IP: [77.241.97.116] From: Bernard Aboba To: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:48:08 -0700 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2009 03:48:09.0433 (UTC) FILETIME=[0EB33490:01CA0E6D] Subject: [ledbat] Strawman Agenda for LEDBAT WG at IETF 75: Take Two X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:48:09 -0000 --_a6e1ceed-b1b8-45b7-9a76-804056c18e80_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LEDBAT WG Meeting IETF 75 Stockholm=2C Sweden Chairs: S. Shalunov M. Sridharan B. Aboba (acting) Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009 13:00 - 15:00 Congresshall B Preliminaries (10 minutes) Note well Blue Sheets Minute Takers Jabber Scribe Agenda bashing Document Status Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (80 minutes) 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT)=2C S. Shaluno= v (30 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion 13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minute= s)=20 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations 14:10 =96 14:30 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M= . Welzl (20 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey Next Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes) 14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (30 minutes) --_a6e1ceed-b1b8-45b7-9a76-804056c18e80_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75
Stockholm=2C Sweden

Chairs: =3B = S. Shalunov
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B&nbs= p=3B M. Sridharan
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B = =3B =3B B. Aboba (acting)

Wednesday=2C July 29=2C 2009
13:00 = - 15:00
Congresshall B

Preliminaries (10 minutes)

Note wel= l
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda bashing
Doc= ument Status

Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work= Item (80 minutes)

13:10 - 13:40 =3B Low Extra Delay Background&= nbsp=3B Transport (LEDBAT)=2C S. Shalunov (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf= .org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion

13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Prac= tices and Recommendations=2C R. Penno (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.or= g/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations

14:10 =96 14:3= 0 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols=2C M. Welzl (20 mi= nutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey

Next = Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes)

14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs &=3B Area Di= rectors (30 minutes)


= --_a6e1ceed-b1b8-45b7-9a76-804056c18e80_-- From peer2peer@gmail.com Mon Jul 27 15:38:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678A13A6CD0 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SARE_BAYES_6x6=0.4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mdKLjssA9KJo for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f219.google.com (mail-gx0-f219.google.com [209.85.217.219]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED1A3A69F2 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so6438540gxk.18 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:38:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=FJ2taGWlOthzj5GfR3khd+LDpnBsLUxTutzvJRAseVw=; b=tViVYNMkEG3qKiKVpPLAPgpegYG3SrXMEVfWocyahvc6/a6wyQbd3G/Q9gzAhOGCVT FcOjP+0CGBg8bQnx5L8ZQ7LpK2HsHd6P8UlebLaWM9+Gr8ryoLRZfy3XUCSqiq1918ir iObtnD+bu8HDfTEMeAgdDPryscWfBjB/YC/p0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=TAXlS9+fA+XpMPdMpfnyh9z0wIw5v0aB2nSckhfsxgQP0qlhIimADA4E0N2SCfc0QS DSpadVVXgErOJuS1HlME7BvLREeninQccjGjO2eZDeM7m5gro8AUNOMFZLomakIBGlvZ Dp043Q1KR7ZD8tCVbYQOMH8OSm0pjW7G4CHio= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.142.4 with SMTP id u4mr12076648ybn.16.1248734314618; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:38:34 +0200 Message-ID: <55cb6be30907271538m36cfd56aj6cdb56399404071@mail.gmail.com> From: Johan Pouwelse To: ledbat@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a Subject: [ledbat] Commitment to contribute by P2P-next project X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:38:39 -0000 --00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear ledbat group, Hereby the P2P-Next research group commits itself to contributing to Ledbat a 'next-generation congestion control algorithm'. We have developed new algorithms and initial running Open Source code which we are expanding. Before the end of this year we are planning to conduct an open Internet trial with over 50.000 participants. P2P-Next is a European Union sponsored project with a budget of 19 million Euro. We are commited to use part of these resources to deploy and standardize a novel congestion control algorithm. We have reviewed in detail the current proposals on the Stockholm agenda. Our key contribution due before end of 2009 is an algorithm which is designed to move beyond the 1-to-1 context of current state-of-the-art. We improve efficiency by utilising the fact that large majority of background upload traffic takes place in a 1 uploader to N receivers context. Our initial measurements indicate that local and remote congestion can be identified with superior accuracy if this context is exploited. >From the strategic side we plan to be completely open about sharing of our Open Source code, algorithms and (anonymised) datasets. By contacting you prior to this meeting we hope that you can take our work into account when relevant. The technical detail of our work will be given within a month from now. Greetings, Dr. Johan pouwelse, scientific director of P2P-next. On Jul 27, 2009 5:48 AM, "Bernard Aboba" wrote: LEDBAT WG Meeting IETF 75 Stockholm, Sweden Chairs: S. Shalunov M. Sridharan B. Aboba (acting) Wednesday, July 29, 2009 13:00 - 15:00 Congresshall B Preliminaries (10 minutes) Note well Blue Sheets Minute Takers Jabber Scribe Agenda bashing Document Status Documents Under Consideration for Adoption as a WG Work Item (80 minutes) 13:10 - 13:40 Low Extra Delay Background Transport (LEDBAT), S. Shalunov (30 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion 13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-app-practices-recommendations 14:10 =96 14:30 A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols, M. Welzl (20 minutes) http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey Next Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes) 14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Directors (30 minutes) _______________________________________________ ledbat mailing list ledbat@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat --00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear ledbat group,

Hereby the P2P-Next research group commits itself to contributing to Led= bat a 'next-generation congestion control algorithm'.

We have developed new algorithms and initial running Open Source code wh= ich we are expanding. Before the end of this year we are planning to conduc= t an open Internet trial with over 50.000 participants.
P2P-Next is a European Union sponsored project with a budget of 19 million = Euro. We are commited to use part of these resources to deploy and standard= ize a novel congestion control algorithm.
We have reviewed in detail the current proposals on the Stockholm agenda. O= ur key contribution due before end of 2009 is an algorithm which is designe= d to move beyond the 1-to-1 context of current state-of-the-art. We improve= efficiency by utilising the fact that large majority of background upload = traffic takes place in a 1 uploader to N receivers context. Our initial mea= surements indicate that local and remote congestion can be identified with = superior accuracy if this context is exploited.

From the strategic side we plan to be completely open about sharing of o= ur Open Source code, algorithms and (anonymised) datasets.

By contacting you prior to this meeting we hope that you can take our wo= rk into account when relevant.
The technical detail of our work will be given within a month from now.

Greetings,
Dr. Johan pouwelse, scientific director of P2P-next.

On Jul 27, 2009 5:48 AM, "Bernard Aboba&q= uot; <ber= nard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrote:

LEDBAT WG Meeting
IETF 75
Stockholm, Sweden

Chairs:=A0 S. Shal= unov
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 M. Sridharan
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 B= . Aboba (acting)

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
13:00 - 15:00
Congre= sshall B

Preliminaries (10 minutes)

Note well
Blue Sheets
Minute Takers
Jabber Scribe
Agenda ba= shing
Document Status

Documents Under Consideration for Adoption = as a WG Work Item (80 minutes)

13:10 - 13:40=A0 Low Extra Delay Back= ground=A0 Transport (LEDBAT), S. Shalunov (30 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shalunov-ledbat-congestion<= br>
13:40 =96 14:10 LEDBAT Practices and Recommendations, R. Penno (30 m= inutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-penno-ledbat-ap= p-practices-recommendations

14:10 =96 14:30 A Survey of Lower-th= an-Best Effort Transport Protocols, M. Welzl (20 minutes)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-ledbat-survey

Nex= t Steps and Wrapup (30 minutes)

14:30 =96 15:00 Chairs & Area Di= rectors (30 minutes)



_______________________________________________
ledbat mailing list
ledbat@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat

--00151750da1a3de283046fb79d2a-- From hishigh@gmail.com Tue Jul 28 04:39:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4D13A6E2C for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ypWu9WvsNnIG for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.170]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3363A6B1B for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so1051241wff.31 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:39:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=pdYSUKD6kujpRoxu/NCD36mhSs1QqKBNxCYErovX2x4=; b=UlUcMuB6Dgt0DPAfbTfJHmEFqahGPfWDoM5WWBZAB2X/4yDNbUtHzOKIF9d8y42lFP YgZaIfI2GWkhs8dgMcRCpXgyeYANGKdEIUQe2UaaGPXlcT9BDtx5JyQVT4IJ2UVZz+MC dN52ZhOo4ZhJQ33jYjamqkOhceE5/5DvTNA3g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=f4XrfDbbW8Q3itDyYDh228p/y79HotiZxO+d9CdF6sw8tdmfBWH4iWpemHJrXCbEZq zcRCsalw2pxyeRnRZcg77mbMh4sYWwT1klL+OmG/2RtgadaVHl5X3eQ6V+dcii3c0SEz VY7wiQQFHvL0/u7ch9mxkR0xSmXvVHpfoXjrU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.29.18 with SMTP id g18mr832524wfj.345.1248781186368; Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:39:46 +0800 Message-ID: <8bd755250907280439r2d759e82nb05c821bc86a5a79@mail.gmail.com> From: yunfei zhang To: ledbat@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e0b4fe040712046fc28720 Subject: [ledbat] PPSP (P2P streaming protocol) final bar bof agenda X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:39:49 -0000 --001636e0b4fe040712046fc28720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,all, The PPSP (P2P streaming protocol) final bar bof agenda is updated as follows. Welcome to attend with us.Any suggestions and contributions are appreciated. PPSP Final Bar BoF-- IETF 75, Stockholm 2000-2200 Thursday,July 30,Room 300. Mailing list=A3=BAppsp@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp Chair: Yunfei Zhang( zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com) Gonzalo Camarillo *( *gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com) (One more may involve) AD: Lars Eggert( lars.eggert@nokia.com) Agenda 1. Introduction and Agenda bashing (Chair,10') 2. Problem Statement (Yunfei Zhang, 40') draft-zhang-ppsp-problem-statement-04 3.Discussion =A3=A8All,20'=A3=A9 4. Other Drafts (the time length is variable depending on the above discussion time) ---- Protocol Analysis of PPlive, PPStream and UUSee by Interent Measurement (Yunfei Zhang,5') draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-comparison-measurement-02 ----Chunk Discovery for P2P Streaming (Ning Zong, 10=A1=AF) draft-zong-ppsp-chunk-discovery-00 5. Discussion (All, 20') 6. Decisions and HUMs (All, 10') 7. Conclusions and Next Steps (Chairs/ADs, 5') BR Yunfei --001636e0b4fe040712046fc28720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,all,<= /font>

   The PPSP (P2P streaming protocol) final = bar bof agenda is updated as follows. Welcome to attend with us.Any suggest= ions and contributions are appreciated.

  

  PPSP Fi= nal Bar BoF-- IETF 75, Stockholm

  2000-2200 Thursday,July 30,Room 300.

  Mailing list=A3=BAppsp@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pps= p

  Chair: Yunfe= i Zhang( zhangyunfei@chinamo= bile.com)

   &= nbsp;        Gonzalo Camarillo ( gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com)

   &= nbsp;        (One more may involve)

   AD: La= rs Eggert( lars.eggert@nokia.com) 

 

 

 

Agenda

1. Introduction and= Agenda bashing   <= span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">       =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =           (Chair,1= 0')  <= /p>

          =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;    

2. Problem Statemen= t      &nbs= p;                  = ;     &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;       (Yunfei Zhang, 40')=

   draft-zhang-ppsp-problem-statement-= 04 

 

3.Discussion        =             &nb= sp;     &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  =A3=A8All,20'= =A3=A9

 

4. Other Drafts (th= e time length is variable depending on the above discussion time)

  ---- Pr= otocol Analysis of PPlive, PPStream and UUSee by Interent Measurement        = ;            &n= bsp;      (Yunfei Zhang,5')

         draft-zhang-ppsp-protocol-compar= ison-measurement-02&n= bsp;

  ----Chunk Discovery for P2P Streaming =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;(Ning Zong, 10’)

        draft-z= ong-ppsp-chunk-discovery-00 

 

5.

 Discussion         =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;           (All, = 20')

 

6. Decisions and HUMs     &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           (All, 10'= ;)

 

7. Conclusions and Next Steps   &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;   (Chairs/ADs, 5')   

 

 

          =             &nb= sp;            =      BR

          =             &nb= sp;            =        Yunfei

 
--001636e0b4fe040712046fc28720-- From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Wed Jul 29 05:23:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DF03A6F5E for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.131, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_FONT_SIZE_HUGE=0.057, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AwHXOEs9iXr for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s17.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s17.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.156]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D6A3A6A2E for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU137-W26 ([65.55.111.137]) by blu0-omc4-s17.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:23:05 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_0429aecf-d7c0-4969-8ee7-0f8df36de9ac_" X-Originating-IP: [130.129.22.186] From: Bernard Aboba To: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:23:06 -0700 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2009 12:23:05.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[5337AAC0:01CA1047] Subject: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for adoption of draft-welzl-ledbat-survey as a LEDBAT WG Work Item X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:23:05 -0000 --_0429aecf-d7c0-4969-8ee7-0f8df36de9ac_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C the attendees indicated an interest= in adopting "A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols" (draf= t-welzl-ledbat-survey) as a LEDBAT WG work item.=20 =20 We would now like to verify the outcome of this call for adoption on the LE= DBAT WG mailing list. =20 =20 If you did not raise your hand at the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C and have= an opinion as to the suitability of adopting this document as a WG work it= em=2C please send mail to the LEDBAT WG list indicating your opinion (Yes/N= o/Abstain).=20 =20 The confirmation call for adoption will last until August 7=2C 2009. If yo= u have issues/edits/comments on the document=2C please send these comments = along to the list in your response to this Call for Adoption.=20 =20 Bernard Acting WG Co-Chair =20 EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me= --_0429aecf-d7c0-4969-8ee7-0f8df36de9ac_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C the attendees indicated an interest= in adopting "A Survey of Lower-than-Best Effort Transport Protocols" (draf= t-welzl-ledbat-survey)
as a LEDBAT WG work item.
 =3B
We would now like to verify the outcome of =3Bthis call for adoption on= the LEDBAT WG mailing list. =3B
 =3B
If you did not raise your hand at the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C and have= an opinion as to the suitability of adopting this document as a WG work it= em=2C please send mail to the LEDBAT WG list indicating your opinion (Yes/N= o/Abstain).
 =3B
The confirmation call for adoption will =3Blast until August 7=2C 2009.=  =3B If you have issues/edits/comments on the document=2C please send t= hese comments along to the list in your response to this Call for Adoption.=
 =3B
Bernard
Acting WG Co-Chair

 =3B
3D"i'm" EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD<= BR>Join me
= --_0429aecf-d7c0-4969-8ee7-0f8df36de9ac_-- From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Wed Jul 29 05:27:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8063A6966 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:27:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.053, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_FONT_SIZE_HUGE=0.057, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jMMSFSSMmnoQ for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s29.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s29.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977B43A6ECB for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU137-W9 ([65.55.111.135]) by blu0-omc4-s29.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:27:18 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_5e77ca60-b659-4eb4-9775-8bf803f4024a_" X-Originating-IP: [130.129.22.186] From: Bernard Aboba To: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 05:27:18 -0700 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2009 12:27:18.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9B2EBE0:01CA1047] Subject: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:27:17 -0000 --_5e77ca60-b659-4eb4-9775-8bf803f4024a_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C the attendees indicated an interest= in adopting "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" (draft-shulanov-ledbat-= congestion) as a LEDBAT WG work item (with Experimental status). =20 =20 We would now like to verify the outcome of this call for adoption on the LE= DBAT WG mailing list. The document is available for inspection here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shulanov-ledbat-congestion =20 If you did not raise your hand at the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C and have= an opinion as to the suitability of adopting this document as a WG work it= em=2C please send mail to the LEDBAT WG list indicating your opinion (Yes/N= o/Abstain).=20 =20 The confirmation call for adoption will last until August 7=2C 2009. If yo= u have issues/edits/comments on the document=2C please send these comments = along to the list in your response to this Call for Adoption.=20 =20 Bernard Acting WG Co-Chair EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me --_5e77ca60-b659-4eb4-9775-8bf803f4024a_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
During the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C the attendees indicated an interest= in adopting "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" (draft-shulanov-ledbat-= congestion) as a LEDBAT WG work item (with Experimental status).  =3B  =3B
We would now like to verify the outcome of =3Bthis call for adoption on= the LEDBAT WG mailing list. =3B The document is available for inspecti= on here:
htt= p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shulanov-ledbat-congestion
 =3B
If you did not raise your hand at the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting=2C and have= an opinion as to the suitability of adopting this document as a WG work it= em=2C please send mail to the LEDBAT WG list indicating your opinion (Yes/N= o/Abstain).
 =3B
The confirmation call for adoption will =3Blast until August 7=2C 2009.=  =3B If you have issues/edits/comments on the document=2C please send t= hese comments along to the list in your response to this Call for Adoption.=
 =3B
Bernard
Acting WG Co-Chair




3D"i'm" EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD<= BR>Join me

= --_5e77ca60-b659-4eb4-9775-8bf803f4024a_-- From wesley.m.eddy@nasa.gov Thu Jul 30 09:17:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F91328C1BB for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.128, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EntFs1P4rNJH for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ndmsnpf01.ndc.nasa.gov (ndmsnpf01.ndc.nasa.gov [198.117.0.121]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A05428C34B for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ndjsppt02.ndc.nasa.gov (ndjsppt02.ndc.nasa.gov [198.117.1.101]) by ndmsnpf01.ndc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF14326054E; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:17:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ndjshub03.ndc.nasa.gov (ndjshub03.ndc.nasa.gov [198.117.4.162]) by ndjsppt02.ndc.nasa.gov (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6UGHK0k026769; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:17:20 -0500 Received: from NDJSSCC01.ndc.nasa.gov ([198.117.4.166]) by ndjshub03.ndc.nasa.gov ([198.117.4.162]) with mapi; Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:17:20 -0500 From: "Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-MS00)[Verizon]" To: Bernard Aboba , "ledbat@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:17:25 -0500 Thread-Topic: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item Thread-Index: AcoQSBtfgKlZ5ps+SIuZu2M0IE+PNwA5uJiQ Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.7400:2.4.4, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2009-07-30_09:2009-07-24, 2009-07-30, 2009-07-30 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:17:40 -0000 I supported adoption of this draft in the WG meeting, and will support it again on the list, though I'll be very clear that it still needs some work. It is a good start. I've read it a couple of times, and have a few comments: Technical Comments: 1 - Similar to RFC 2581, a "FlightSize" should be defined for the amount of data in flight, since it's not always the same as cwnd. This can (and has) lead to errors in TCP implementation, so it should be made clear. 2 - "halve on loss" ... this should refer to the FlightSize rather than the window, consistent with RFC 2581. 3 - TARGET of 25 ms seems arbitrary for a "MUST" ... I think it should be a default constant via "SHOULD", but could be ripe for experimentation. 4 - should the NOISE_FILTER be related to cwnd or FlightSize? ... I think FlightSize. 5 - Definition of how loss is detected in order to generate a cwnd reduction is absolutely required. This needs to be clear and prominent in the draft. 6 - Is it correct that this is not intended to be an "ECN-Capable Transport"? It seems like ECN could be added ... it's listed as a design goal, but not accommodated by the algorithm specification itself. Editorial Comments : 1 -=20 In section 2, Introduction (first sentence) The standard congestion control in TCP is based on loss and has not been designed to drive delay to any given value. Because TCP needs losses to back off, when a FIFO bottleneck lacks AQM, TCP fills the buffer, effectively maximizing possible delay. there are a couple problems with precision in this, suggest changing to -> The standard TCP congestion control algorithms [RFC2581bis] are based on congestion signals that do not directly include queueing delay. Without Active Queue Management (AQM), TCP fills buffers at bottlenecks within the network [RFC2309], effectively creating maximal queueing delay at the bottleneck. 2 - Abstract & Introduction "advanced networking applications" should just be "applications" 3 - several places require disambiguation of "delay" into "queueing delay" 4 - overall, there could be some slight grammatical improvements in a lot of places, but I'd wait until the document is near WGLC to worry about them. --------------------------- Wes Eddy Network & Systems Architect Verizon FNS / NASA GRC Office: (216) 433-6682 --------------------------- >-----Original Message----- >From: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ledbat-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >Of Bernard Aboba >Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:27 AM >To: ledbat@ietf.org >Subject: [ledbat] Confirmation: Call for Adoption of "Low Extra Delay >Background Transport" as a LEDBAT WG work item > > >During the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting, the attendees indicated an >interest in adopting "Low Extra Delay Background Transport" (draft- >shulanov-ledbat-congestion) as a LEDBAT WG work item (with Experimental >status). > >We would now like to verify the outcome of this call for adoption on the >LEDBAT WG mailing list. The document is available for inspection here: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shulanov-ledbat-congestion > >If you did not raise your hand at the IETF 75 LEDBAT WG meeting, and >have an opinion as to the suitability of adopting this document as a WG >work item, please send mail to the LEDBAT WG list indicating your >opinion (Yes/No/Abstain). > >The confirmation call for adoption will last until August 7, 2009. If >you have issues/edits/comments on the document, please send these >comments along to the list in your response to this Call for Adoption. > >Bernard >Acting WG Co-Chair > > > > > >i'm EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD >Join me >