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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:18:02 +0000
From: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
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Lisa Dusseault wrote:

> So, does this mean that we don't need to yank CondStore out of the RFC 
> queue?

The answer to your question depends on what people think about the 
document. There are several places marked with <<>> that can be made 
cleaner (e.g. REPORTEXPUNGES) if there is a single extension.
So, I would encourage people to do a review and we can discuss in a few 
weeks.

> thanks,
> Lisa
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 10:44 AM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>> Lisa Dusseault wrote:
>>
>>> Alexey needs to propose what changes to make to CondStore, as a 
>>> concrete written proposal to the list.
>>
>> I've just submitted a new draft that describes how CONDSTORE 
>> modification sequences can be used to track expunged messages. Before 
>> it is announced, people can find it at:
>> http://ietf.webdav.org/imapext/draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00.txt
>>
>> I will welcome all suggestions, especially on issues marked with <<>> 
>> in the document.
>>
>> I can rework RECONNECT to reference the new document, if people feel 
>> it is a good idea.
>>
>> Alexey
>


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb  1 06:35:48 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] Re: expunged draft
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Timo Sirainen wrote:

>On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 18:44 +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>  =

>
>>I've just submitted a new draft that describes how CONDSTORE =

>>modification sequences can be used to track expunged messages. Before it =

>>is announced, people can find it at:
>>http://ietf.webdav.org/imapext/draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00.txt
>>
>>I will welcome all suggestions, especially on issues marked with <<>> in =

>>the document.
>>    =

>>
>
>It shows that HIGHESTMODSEQ update is sent after EXPUNGE command. What
>about when other session did the EXPUNGE and we're seeing untagged
>EXPUNGEs? Maybe always send it after untagged expunges (and don't
>mention EXPUNGE command at all)?
>  =

>
Yes, that was the idea.

>Servers supporting UNSELECT should most likely also send HIGHESTMODSEQ
>just as with CLOSE, but this isn't mentioned.
>
UNSELECT doesn't cause any message to be expunged.

> And what about with
>SELECT?
>
Same as above.

> Maybe just point out more generally that "when using a command
>which closes the mailbox, send HIGHESTMODSEQ". Perhaps LOGOUT should do
>that too?
>  =

>
Remember, that the CONDSTORE extension requires the server to send =

mod-sequences for flag changes (using MODSEQ FETCH data items) and =

whenever a message is appended. The EXPUNGED document extends this to =

cover expunges. So there is no point to send HIGHESTMODSEQ when nothing =

has changed, this should cover LOGOUT, SELECT and UNSELECT.
Of course, if messages got expunged in another session, the server still =

needs to send HIGHESTMODSEQ.

>   <<What if the server can=A2t remember some expunged UIDs, for example
>   the provided mod-sequence is too old? Can the server just return
>   all UIDs not in the UID set? This can generate additional traffic,
>   but should be Ok otherwise.>>
>
>Yes, I think so.
>
>In 3.4 EXPUNGED Response it seems rather useless trying to rewrite what
>RFC3501 says about EXPUNGEs. Just point out that it works exactly as
>normal untagged EXPUNGE? It would be really bad if they accidentally got
>different rules.
>  =

>
As EXPUNGED returns a list of UIDs, I was wondering if it should obey =

the same rule as EXPUNGE, i.e. whether it should be allowed during =

regular FETCH/STORE.

>Maybe rename the EXPUNGED to UIDEXPUNGE or similar to make it more clear
>that it's sending UIDs and not sequences?
>  =

>
Sure.


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From oconnor@caths.co.uk  Tue Feb  1 09:54:47 2005
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From: LIOUDMILA OCONNOR <oconnor@caths.co.uk>
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Subject: ATTENTION!!!    CAN YOU BE HONEST?
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb  1 14:37:18 2005
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From: Lisa Dusseault <lisa@osafoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC BURL
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:22:16 -0800
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I've reviewed BURL and found it to be simple and clear.  Before I read 
the mechanism details I had concerns that BURL optimizes only a narrow 
case -- I was thinking of the desired balance between added complexity 
vs.  benefit  --  but when the solution is so simple, that seems just 
fine.

What are peoples' implementation plans for BURL?

Lisa

On Jan 19, 2005, at 3:20 PM, Eric Burger wrote:

> This is an announcement of the Work Group Last Call for BURL:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-00.txt
>
> Work Group Last Call will close 3 February 2005 at noon US Eastern 
> Time.
>
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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Lisa Dusseault wrote:

> I've reviewed BURL and found it to be simple and clear.  Before I read 
> the mechanism details I had concerns that BURL optimizes only a narrow 
> case -- I was thinking of the desired balance between added complexity 
> vs.  benefit  --  but when the solution is so simple, that seems just 
> fine.
>
> What are peoples' implementation plans for BURL?

I've started on CATENATE and planning to implement BURL some time after 
that.


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb  1 15:47:01 2005
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To: "IETF LEMONADE (E-mail)" <lemonade@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC CATENATE
References: <EDD694D47377D7119C8400D0B77FD331ECA94C@nhmail2.brooktrout.com>
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In addition to Philip's typo fix, I also believe that the examples that 
use a URL which contain a section need to be corrected to use 
"/;section=" instead of ";section=" if my reading of <isection> in RFC 
2192 is correct.


Eric Burger wrote:

> This is an announcement of the Work Group Last Call for CATENATE:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-03.txt
> 
> This draft does not include one change that will be in -04 that will go for
> IETF Last Call, which is a typographical error found by Philip Guenther:
> 
> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg01035.html
> 
> Work Group Last Call will close 3 February 2005 at noon US Eastern Time.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


-- 
Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb  1 17:04:20 2005
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Point of clarification:  Are we saying that CATENATE is *only* valid in 
the selected state (where the URL MUST NOT refer to a different mailbox) 
or is it also allowed in authenticated state?  A note in the text says 
that "the CATENATE command is valid in the selected state", but doesn't 
say "only".

Also, to emphasize this point perhaps one or more of the examples can 
use a relative URL, e.g: "/;UID=20/;section=HEADER"


Eric Burger wrote:

> This is an announcement of the Work Group Last Call for CATENATE:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-03.txt
> 
> This draft does not include one change that will be in -04 that will go for
> IETF Last Call, which is a typographical error found by Philip Guenther:
> 
> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg01035.html
> 
> Work Group Last Call will close 3 February 2005 at noon US Eastern Time.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


-- 
Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp

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http://pegrwaqhdsf182.betsydhxndjur.com/
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 Each of us owes deepest thanks to those who have rekindled this light. I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. I discovered I always have choices and sometimes it's only a choice of attitude. Distance between two hearts is not an obstacle; rather a great reminder of just how strong true love can be. No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. A kiss is a lovely trick designed by nature to stop speech when words become superfluous. A woman knows the face of the man she loves as a sailor knows the open sea. A positive attitude will not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. No matter what looms ahead, if you can eat today, enjoy today, mix good cheer with friends today enjoy it and bless God for it. The quality of the moment is more important than the number of our days. Of cheerfulness, or a good temper - the more it is spent, the more of it remains. Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me. I discovered I always have choices and sometimes it's only a choice of attitude. Solitude, if rightly used, becomes not only a privilege but a necessity. Only a superficial soul fears to fraternize with itself. Love is the beauty of the soul. Can miles truly separate you from friends... If you want to be with someone you love, aren't you already there? Books are the shoes with which we tread the footsteps of great minds. Life's challenges are not supposed to paralyze you, they're supposed to help you discover who you are. Very little is needed to m
ake a happy life. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but because you are. Those who are willing to sacrifice essential liberties for a little order, will lose both and deserve neither. Your living is determined not so much by what life brings to you as by the attitude you bring to life; not so much by what happens to you as by the way your mind looks at what happens. The Eskimo has fifty-two names for snow because it is important to them; there ought to be as many for love. Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow but a vision. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore to this day. True friendship comes when the silence between two people is comfortable. If you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. No elected body is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay that way as long as we care to keep it so. Too often we give our children answers to remember rather than problems to solve. Love is the beauty of the soul. Can miles truly separate you from friends... If you want to be with someone you love, aren't you already there? Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me. 

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<FONT face=3DArial>Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will=
 teach you to keep your mouth shut. Why is it drug addicts and computer af=
ficionados are both called users? Life's challenges are not supposed to pa=
ralyze you, they're supposed to help you discover who you are. Reality is =
an illusion that occurs due to lack of alcohol. Life's challenges are not =
supposed to paralyze you, they're supposed to help you discover who you ar=
e. Treat people as if they were what they ought to be, and you help them t=
o become what they are capable of being. The great thing about television =
is that if something important happens anywhere in the world, day or night=
, you can always change the channel. No dictator, no invader, can hold an =
imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power =
in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power, governments=
 and tyrants and armies cannot stand. Very little is needed to make a happ=
y life. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. No elected bod=
y is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay tha=
t way as long as we care to keep it so. The ultimate measure of a man is n=
ot where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he sta=
nds in times of challenge and controversy. Nothing splendid has ever been =
achieved except by those who dared believe that something inside them was =
superior to circumstances. A woman knows the face of the man she loves as =
a sailor knows the open sea. Those who are willing to sacrifice essential =
liberties for a little order, will lose both and deserve neither. Drinking=
 provides a beautiful excuse to pursue the one activity that truly gives m=
e pleasure -- hooking up with fat, hairy girls. No elected body is the cou=
ntry, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay that way as lon=
g as we care to keep it so. Life's challenges are not supposed to paralyze=
 you, they're supposed to help you discover who you are. Autumn is the tim=
e when seasons merge because of bare necessity. Programming today is a rac=
e between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-pro=
of programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. =
So far, the Universe is winning. All right, Brain, I don't like you and yo=
u don't like me -- so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you =
with beer. It's not that chocolates are a substitute for love. Love is a s=
ubstitute for chocolate. Chocolate is, let's face it, far more reliable th=
an a man. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airlin=
e. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weap=
ons, but at the very least you need a beer. A kiss makes the heart young a=
gain and wipes out the years. Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful=
, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing th=
at ever has. What lies behind us and what lies before us, are only small m=
atters compared to what lies within us. Very little is needed to make a ha=
ppy life. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. A book may l=
ie dormant for fifty years or for two thousand years in a forgotten corner=
 of a library, only to reveal, upon being opened, the marvels or the abyss=
es that it contains, or the line that seems to have been written for me al=
one. In this respect the writer is not different from any other human bein=
g: whatever we say or do can have far-reaching consequences. Hope is like =
a road in the country: there was never a road, but when many people walk o=
n it, the road comes into existence. Love is the energy of the soul. Love =
is what heals the personality. There is nothing that cannot be healed by l=
ove. There is nothing but love. Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor =
of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. Whatever our souls are m=
ade of, his and mine are the same. Without question, the greatest inventio=
n in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was al=
so a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. =
Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world. Reality is an=
 illusion that occurs due to lack of alcohol. Solitude, if rightly used, b=
ecomes not only a privilege but a necessity. Only a superficial soul fears=
 to fraternize with itself. A kiss makes the heart young again and wipes o=
ut the years. Nothing splendid has ever been achieved except by those who =
dared believe that something inside them was superior to circumstances. Ne=
ver doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change =
the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. All right, Brain, I=
 don't like you and you don't like me -- so let's just do this and I'll ge=
t back to killing you with beer. Autumn is the time when seasons merge bec=
ause of bare necessity. Without question, the greatest invention in the hi=
story of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine i=
nvention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. It's not th=
at chocolates are a substitute for love. Love is a substitute for chocolat=
e. Chocolate is, let's face it, far more reliable than a man. The man who =
says I told you so is making an excuse for not expressing his position cle=
arly in the first place. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such=
 as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water,=
 a vital ingredient in beer. Touch is the most fundamental sense. A baby e=
xperiences it, all over, before he is born and long after he learns to use=
 sight, hearing, or taste, and no human ever ceases to need it. Keep your =
children short on pocket money - but long on hugs. You can widen your life=
 by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that beco=
mes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only =
too many to properly take care of. A positive attitude will not solve all =
your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort=
 Time is never wasted when you're wasted all the time. Love is the energy=
 of the soul. Love is what heals the personality. There is nothing that ca=
nnot be healed by love. There is nothing but love. The best proof of love =
is trust. Love is the energy of the soul. Love is what heals the personali=
ty. There is nothing that cannot be healed by love. There is nothing but l=
ove. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. Love is t=
he immortal flow of energy that nourishes, extends and preserves. Its eter=
nal goal is life. A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an=
 invasion, butcher a hog, conn a shp, design a building, write a sonnet, b=
alance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,=
 give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem=
, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, =
die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Very little is needed to mak=
e a happy life. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. The pr=
oblem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind. Drinking pro=
vides a beautiful excuse to pursue the one activity that truly gives me pl=
easure -- hooking up with fat, hairy girls. Distance between two hearts is=
 not an obstacle; rather a great reminder of just how strong true love can=
 be. The quality of the moment is more important than the number of our da=
ys. Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world. You can't=
 be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you =
have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the ver=
y least you need a beer. Reduce the complexity of life by eliminating the =
needless wants of life, and the labors of life reduce themselves. A book m=
ay lie dormant for fifty years or for two thousand years in a forgotten co=
rner of a library, only to reveal, upon being opened, the marvels or the a=
bysses that it contains, or the line that seems to have been written for m=
e alone. In this respect the writer is not different from any other human =
being: whatever we say or do can have far-reaching consequences. Sometimes=
 our light goes out but is blown into flame by another human being. Each o=
f us owes deepest thanks to those who have rekindled this light. I do not =
fear computers. I fear the lack of them. You can't be a real country unles=
s you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a foot=
ball team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.=
 I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning=
, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. I discovered I always h=
ave choices and sometimes it's only a choice of attitude. Distance between=
 two hearts is not an obstacle; rather a great reminder of just how strong=
 true love can be. No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned populat=
ion by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe th=
an the need for freedom. Against that power, governments and tyrants and a=
rmies cannot stand. A kiss is a lovely trick designed by nature to stop sp=
eech when words become superfluous. A woman knows the face of the man she =
loves as a sailor knows the open sea. A positive attitude will not solve a=
ll your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the eff=
ort. No matter what looms ahead, if you can eat today, enjoy today, mix go=
od cheer with friends today enjoy it and bless God for it. The quality of =
the moment is more important than the number of our days. Of cheerfulness,=
 or a good temper - the more it is spent, the more of it remains. Always r=
emember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out o=
f me. I discovered I always have choices and sometimes it's only a choice =
of attitude. Solitude, if rightly used, becomes not only a privilege but a=
 necessity. Only a superficial soul fears to fraternize with itself. Love =
is the beauty of the soul. Can miles truly separate you from friends... If=
 you want to be with someone you love, aren't you already there? Books are=
 the shoes with which we tread the footsteps of great minds. Life's challe=
nges are not supposed to paralyze you, they're supposed to help you discov=
er who you are. Very little is needed to make a happy life. It is all with=
in yourself, in your way of thinking. Treat everyone with politeness, even=
 those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but because you are=
 Those who are willing to sacrifice essential liberties for a little orde=
r, will lose both and deserve neither. Your living is determined not so mu=
ch by what life brings to you as by the attitude you bring to life; not so=
 much by what happens to you as by the way your mind looks at what happens=
 The Eskimo has fifty-two names for snow because it is important to them;=
 there ought to be as many for love. Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow but a =
vision. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, a=
nd every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore to this day. True=
 friendship comes when the silence between two people is comfortable. If y=
ou ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it makes beer=
 shoot out your nose. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up r=
eading. Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens c=
an change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. No electe=
d body is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only sta=
y that way as long as we care to keep it so. Too often we give our childre=
n answers to remember rather than problems to solve. Love is the beauty of=
 the soul. Can miles truly separate you from friends... If you want to be =
with someone you love, aren't you already there? Abstainer: a weak person =
who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. Always remembe=
r that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me.=20=
</FONT>
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Subject: [lemonade] FW: [Fwd: RFC 3975 on OMA-IETF Standardization
	Collaboration]
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We finaly have an OMA liaison document.

Check out Apendix A.  Do we want to have an explicit email bullet?

Corby Wilson

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RFC 3975 on OMA-IETF Standardization Collaboration
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:51:46 -0800
From: ext rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
To: ietf-announce@ietf.org
CC: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org


A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.


         RFC 3975

         Title:      OMA-IETF Standardization Collaboration
         Author(s):  G. Huston, Ed., I. Leuca, Ed.
         Status:     Informational
         Date:       January 2005
         Mailbox:    execd@iab.org, ileana.leuca@Cingular.com
         Pages:      9
         Characters: 16926
         Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:    None

         I-D Tag:    draft-iab-oma-liaison-00.txt

         URL:        ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3975.txt


This document describes the standardization collaboration between the
Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) and the Internet Engineering Task Force
(IETF).

This document is a product of the Internet Architecture Board.

This memo provides information for the Internet community.  It does not
specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of this memo is
unlimited.

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RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


Joyce K. Reynolds and Sandy Ginoza
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...

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Miguel A. Garcia           tel:+358-50-4804586
Nokia Research Center      Helsinki, Finland


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb  2 11:53:33 2005
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To: Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC CATENATE
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Ken Murchison wrote:

> Point of clarification:  Are we saying that CATENATE is *only* valid 
> in the selected state (where the URL MUST NOT refer to a different 
> mailbox) or is it also allowed in authenticated state?  A note in the 
> text says that "the CATENATE command is valid in the selected state", 
> but doesn't say "only".

Currently it is only allowed in the selected state. However, my gut 
feeling is that CATENATE will be extended in the future, so it will be 
allowed in other states. My preference is to leave the wording as is.

> Also, to emphasize this point perhaps one or more of the examples can 
> use a relative URL, e.g: "/;UID=20/;section=HEADER"

Good point.

Alexey


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Alexey Melnikov wrote:

> Ken Murchison wrote:
> 
>> Point of clarification:  Are we saying that CATENATE is *only* valid 
>> in the selected state (where the URL MUST NOT refer to a different 
>> mailbox) or is it also allowed in authenticated state?  A note in the 
>> text says that "the CATENATE command is valid in the selected state", 
>> but doesn't say "only".
> 
> 
> Currently it is only allowed in the selected state. However, my gut 
> feeling is that CATENATE will be extended in the future, so it will be 
> allowed in other states. My preference is to leave the wording as is.

Why not just open it up now?  Are we worried about implementation 
problems?  Even in selected state, wouldn't it be desirable to allow 
parts of messages from another mailbox to be used?

-- 
Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp

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On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Ken Murchison wrote:
> Why not just open it up now?  Are we worried about implementation problems? 
> Even in selected state, wouldn't it be desirable to allow parts of messages 
> from another mailbox to be used?

I agree.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org=20
> [mailto:owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org]On Behalf Of ext Timo Sirainen
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 3:52 PM
...
>=20
> It shows that HIGHESTMODSEQ update is sent after EXPUNGE command. What
> about when other session did the EXPUNGE and we're seeing untagged
> EXPUNGEs? Maybe always send it after untagged expunges (and don't
> mention EXPUNGE command at all)?
...
> Maybe rename the EXPUNGED to UIDEXPUNGE or similar to make it=20
> more clear
> that it's sending UIDs and not sequences?

What about something like ...

* EXPUNGE (UID N MODSEQ (MMMM))

This would disambiguate nicely ...
1) Covers unsolicited as well as untagged solicited EXPUNGE responses.
2) The parenthetical element is just a subset of a FETCH response, =
meaning I
see some nice code reuse potential.

Mike

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> >Servers supporting UNSELECT should most likely also send=20
> HIGHESTMODSEQ
> >just as with CLOSE, but this isn't mentioned.
> >
> UNSELECT doesn't cause any message to be expunged.
>=20
> > And what about with
> >SELECT?
> >
> Same as above.

SELECT will generate a HIGHESTMODSEQ as per CONDSTORE
even if the SELECT is from the selected state. No?

A CLOSE is generating a HIGHESTMODSEQ response code relative
to the *closed* mailbox, whereas the SELECT is generating a=20
HIGHESTMODSEQ response code relative to the opened mailbox.
This is an important, albeit subtle, distinction. Correct?

Mike

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Sec 3.3
   <<alternative #1: extend syntax for the CHANGEDSINCE FETCH
   modifier.

Why even have the keyword REPORTEXPUNGES? Why not just overload
CHANGEDSINCE to imply expunges?=20

   <<What if the server can?t remember some expunged UIDs, for example
   the provided mod-sequence is too old? Can the server just return
   all UIDs not in the UID set? This can generate additional traffic,
   but should be Ok otherwise.>>

How does the client know when there are forgotten expunges? In this case
the client must use the conventional approach to determining expunged=20
mail, which is okay, it just needs to know when to do it.

Sec 3.5

   <<Add CHANGEDSINCE SELECT/EXAMINE parameter?>>

I assume this is an orthogonal item that was just missed in the original
CONDSTORE? What is it? It is kind of weird to include this in an Expunge =

doc. Maybe this doc should be CONDSTOREPLUS. ;-)

Sec 4

   " ... HIGHESTMODSEQ with the one returned by the server. If the =
cached
   HIGHESTMODSEQ value also matches the one returned by the server,
   then the client MUST NOT fetch flags for cached messages, as they
   hasn't changed. "

Shouldn't this be "SHOULD NOT". Also, "hasn't" should be "haven't"

Mike

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Subject: [lemonade] Re: expunged draft
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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>>> <>Servers supporting UNSELECT should most likely also send HIGHESTMODSEQ
>>
>>>just as with CLOSE, but this isn't mentioned.
>>>      
>>>
>>UNSELECT doesn't cause any message to be expunged.
>>    
>>
>>>And what about with
>>>SELECT?
>>>      
>>>
>>Same as above.
>>    
>>
>
>SELECT will generate a HIGHESTMODSEQ as per CONDSTORE
>even if the SELECT is from the selected state. No?
>  
>
Yes, it will.
SELECT from a selected state doesn't cause expunge, so nothing should be 
sent for the mailbox that is being closed.

>A CLOSE is generating a HIGHESTMODSEQ response code relative
>to the *closed* mailbox, whereas the SELECT is generating a 
>HIGHESTMODSEQ response code relative to the opened mailbox.
>This is an important, albeit subtle, distinction. Correct?
>  
>
Yes.


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Subject: [lemonade] Re: expunged draft
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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org 
>>[mailto:owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org]On Behalf Of ext Timo Sirainen
>>Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 3:52 PM
>>    
>>
>...
>  
>
>>It shows that HIGHESTMODSEQ update is sent after EXPUNGE command. What
>>about when other session did the EXPUNGE and we're seeing untagged
>>EXPUNGEs? Maybe always send it after untagged expunges (and don't
>>mention EXPUNGE command at all)?
>>    
>>
>...
>  
>
>>Maybe rename the EXPUNGED to UIDEXPUNGE or similar to make it 
>>more clear
>>that it's sending UIDs and not sequences?
>>    
>>
>
>What about something like ...
>
>* EXPUNGE (UID N MODSEQ (MMMM))
>  
>
Dave Cridland has suggested something similar during a private conversation.

>This would disambiguate nicely ...
>1) Covers unsolicited as well as untagged solicited EXPUNGE responses.
>2) The parenthetical element is just a subset of a FETCH response, meaning I
>see some nice code reuse potential.
>  
>
I am not sure the parsing code is going to be as big so it can benefit 
from code reuse.

I will change the draft to have something like:

* UIDEXPUNGE 1:5,7,505 (MODSEQ MMMM)

I.e., it will contain UID set and modification sequence at the end.


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Ken Murchison wrote:

> Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>> Ken Murchison wrote:
>>
>>> Point of clarification:  Are we saying that CATENATE is *only* valid 
>>> in the selected state (where the URL MUST NOT refer to a different 
>>> mailbox) or is it also allowed in authenticated state?  A note in 
>>> the text says that "the CATENATE command is valid in the selected 
>>> state", but doesn't say "only".
>>
>> Currently it is only allowed in the selected state. However, my gut 
>> feeling is that CATENATE will be extended in the future, so it will 
>> be allowed in other states. My preference is to leave the wording as is.
>
> Why not just open it up now?  Are we worried about implementation 
> problems?  Even in selected state, wouldn't it be desirable to allow 
> parts of messages from another mailbox to be used?

I think we had this argument before. Restricting CATENATE to the 
currently selected mailbox makes server implementations easier.
Of course, if we allow for something evil like http URLs, there is no 
need to have any mailbox selected :-).

I personally prefer no restriction, even though I agree that this will 
need more work for server implementors.

Alexey


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Subject: [lemonade] Re: Comments on draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00
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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>Sec 3.3
>   <<alternative #1: extend syntax for the CHANGEDSINCE FETCH
>   modifier.
>
>Why even have the keyword REPORTEXPUNGES? Why not just overload
>CHANGEDSINCE to imply expunges? 
>  
>
Sending expunge information to the client who hasn't asked for it 
doesn't sound right, even though any client should be able to ignore 
such information.

If we choose to replace CONDSTORE, there would be no REPORTEXPUNGES.

>   <<What if the server can?t remember some expunged UIDs, for example
>   the provided mod-sequence is too old? Can the server just return
>   all UIDs not in the UID set? This can generate additional traffic,
>   but should be Ok otherwise.>>
>
>How does the client know when there are forgotten expunges? In this case
>the client must use the conventional approach to determining expunged 
>mail, which is okay, it just needs to know when to do it.
>  
>
Client doesn't know and need not know. I think this is a server only issue.

>Sec 3.5
>
>   <<Add CHANGEDSINCE SELECT/EXAMINE parameter?>>
>
>I assume this is an orthogonal item that was just missed in the original
>CONDSTORE?
>
Yes, you are right.

> What is it? It is kind of weird to include this in an Expunge 
>doc. Maybe this doc should be CONDSTOREPLUS. ;-)
>
>Sec 4
>
>   " ... HIGHESTMODSEQ with the one returned by the server. If the cached
>   HIGHESTMODSEQ value also matches the one returned by the server,
>   then the client MUST NOT fetch flags for cached messages, as they
>   hasn't changed. "
>
>Shouldn't this be "SHOULD NOT".
>
This is an informative section, so I should probably lowercase the term.

>Also, "hasn't" should be "haven't"
>  
>
Thank you for the comments!

Alexey


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Subject: [lemonade] RE: Comments on draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org
> [mailto:owner-ietf-imapext@mail.imc.org]On Behalf Of ext=20
> Alexey Melnikov
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:18 PM
...
> >Sec 3.3
> >   <<alternative #1: extend syntax for the CHANGEDSINCE FETCH
> >   modifier.
> >
> >Why even have the keyword REPORTEXPUNGES? Why not just overload
> >CHANGEDSINCE to imply expunges?=20
> > =20
> >
> Sending expunge information to the client who hasn't asked for it=20
> doesn't sound right, even though any client should be able to ignore=20
> such information.
>=20
> If we choose to replace CONDSTORE, there would be no REPORTEXPUNGES.

If it does not sound right in draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00 why
would it be okay in CONDSTORE?

>=20
> >   <<What if the server can?t remember some expunged UIDs,=20
> for example
> >   the provided mod-sequence is too old? Can the server just return
> >   all UIDs not in the UID set? This can generate additional traffic,
> >   but should be Ok otherwise.>>
> >
...
> Client doesn't know and need not know. I think this is a=20
> server only issue.

I guess I need to see what you mean by "Can the server just return
all UIDs not in the UID set?"

The client has to know that something is amiss on the server. It is=20
not getting an expunge. A fetch response is only supposed to be=20
returned subject to the CHANGEDSINCE modifier.

I see two options ...
1) An unsolicited * SEARCH=20
2) A response code that tells the client to use UID SEARCH 1:*

In either case the client knows.

> >
> >   " ... HIGHESTMODSEQ with the one returned by the server.=20
> If the cached
> >   HIGHESTMODSEQ value also matches the one returned by the server,
> >   then the client MUST NOT fetch flags for cached messages, as they
> >   hasn't changed. "
> >
> >Shouldn't this be "SHOULD NOT".
> >
> This is an informative section, so I should probably=20
> lowercase the term.

Informative or not the client does not have to perform this=20
behavior hence it seems it should be "should".

Mike

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The IESG has received a request from the Enhancements to Internet email to 
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Subject: [lemonade] Re: Comments on draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00
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[Let's have this discussion on IMAPEXT only].

Answering the second part of your message.

Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>>> <> <<What if the server can?t remember some expunged UIDs, for example
>>
>>>  the provided mod-sequence is too old? Can the server just return
>>>  all UIDs not in the UID set? This can generate additional traffic,
>>>  but should be Ok otherwise.>>
>>>      
>>>
>...
>  
>
>>Client doesn't know and need not know. I think this is a 
>>server only issue.    
>>
>
>I guess I need to see what you mean by "Can the server just return
>all UIDs not in the UID set?"
>
>The client has to know that something is amiss on the server. It is 
>not getting an expunge. A fetch response is only supposed to be 
>returned subject to the CHANGEDSINCE modifier.
>
>I see two options ...
>1) An unsolicited * SEARCH 
>2) A response code that tells the client to use UID SEARCH 1:*
>
>In either case the client knows.
>
My comment is trying to say that the server MUST always return expunged 
messages, if it doesn't remember which messages got expunged since the 
specified modification sequence, it should return ALL messages expunged 
(but only for UID set the specified in the UID FETCH (REPORTEXPUNGES).

So, the client doesn't really need to know whether the server remembers 
or not. The client should be able to handle duplicate expunge 
notifications anyway.

>>> <> " ... HIGHESTMODSEQ with the one returned by the server. If the 
>>> cached
>>
>>>  HIGHESTMODSEQ value also matches the one returned by the server,
>>>  then the client MUST NOT fetch flags for cached messages, as they
>>>  hasn't changed. "
>>>
>>>Shouldn't this be "SHOULD NOT".
>>>      
>>>
>>This is an informative section, so I should probably 
>>lowercase the term.    
>>
>
>Informative or not the client does not have to perform this 
>behavior hence it seems it should be "should".
>  
>
I see no point for the client to violate the MUST, that is why I've used 
upper case MUST. (please, prove me wrong with an example).
The client can do many other stupid things and I don't want to encourage 
them.


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        Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com>, Chris Newman <chris.newman@sun.com>,
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Subject: [lemonade] Re: CATENATE'ing from unselected mailboxes (Was: WGLC
	CATENATE)
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[Cc'ing this directly to Chris Newman for comment.]

On 2/2/05 at 10:44 AM -0800, Mark Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Ken Murchison wrote:
>>Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>>Ken Murchison wrote:
>>>
>>>>Point of clarification:  Are we saying that CATENATE is *only* 
>>>>valid in the selected state (where the URL MUST NOT refer to a 
>>>>different mailbox) or is it also allowed in authenticated state? 
>>>>A note in the text says that "the CATENATE command is valid in 
>>>>the selected state", but doesn't say "only".
>>>
>>>Currently it is only allowed in the selected state. However, my 
>>>gut feeling is that CATENATE will be extended in the future, so it 
>>>will be allowed in other states. My preference is to leave the 
>>>wording as is.
>>
>>Why not just open it up now?  Are we worried about implementation 
>>problems? Even in selected state, wouldn't it be desirable to allow 
>>parts of messages from another mailbox to be used?
>
>I agree.

As (I think) I've said before, this is a trivial change that I have 
no personal objection to allowing unselected mailboxes on the current 
server. (I think there are more people than just me that would object 
to having other servers, or other protocols besides IMAP, in the base 
spec.) However, Chris Newman said for his (and I believe he claimed 
other) servers, this would be a huge implementation burden if it was 
required in the base CATENATE spec.

Can we get some quick resolution to this question? Can you all please 
fight it out and let me know whether you want:

a) Any message on the current IMAP server
...or...
b) Any message in the currently selected mailbox

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: iesg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Last Call: 'Server To Server Notification Protocol
	Requirements' to Proposed Standard 
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, The IESG wrote:
> The IESG has received a request from the Enhancements to Internet email to
> support diverse service environments WG to consider the following document:
> - 'Server To Server Notification Protocol Requirements '
>   <draft-ietf-lemonade-notify-s2s-00.txt> as a Proposed Standard

I'm sorry that I dropped the ball on this document in the WG.  I obviously 
missed the WGLC.

Without commenting on the quality of the document, is this document really 
suitable for standards track?  It doesn't actually specify any protocol, 
but instead just states requirements for an as-yet nonexistant protocol.

Hence, if it's published as an RFC, I'd think that it would be Informative 
or perhaps a BCP.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Feb  3 16:04:09 2005
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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Last Call: 'Server To Server Notification Protocol
	Requirements' to Proposed Standard
To: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
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> > The IESG has received a request from the Enhancements to Internet email to
> > support diverse service environments WG to consider the following document:
> > - 'Server To Server Notification Protocol Requirements '
> >   <draft-ietf-lemonade-notify-s2s-00.txt> as a Proposed Standard

> Without commenting on the quality of the document, is this document really
> suitable for standards track?  It doesn't actually specify any protocol,
> but instead just states requirements for an as-yet nonexistant protocol.

FWIW, I had the same reaction. There's no protocol here, only a set of
requirements for one, as the title of the document implies. IMO this
is suitable for publication as informational, not proposed or BCP.

				Ned

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Feb  3 21:54:51 2005
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:45:49 -0800
To: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Last Call: 'Server To Server Notification Protocol
	Requirements' to Proposed Standard
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On 2/3/05 at 9:09 AM -0800, Mark Crispin wrote:

>On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, The IESG wrote:
>>The IESG has received a request from the Enhancements to Internet email to
>>support diverse service environments WG to consider the following document:
>>- 'Server To Server Notification Protocol Requirements '
>>   <draft-ietf-lemonade-notify-s2s-00.txt> as a Proposed Standard
>
>I'm sorry that I dropped the ball on this document in the WG.  I 
>obviously missed the WGLC.

You are not to be faulted here, Mark: Seeing the WGLC (sent 21 Sep 
2004) would not have helped you in this case because it did not 
include the intended status of the document.

>Without commenting on the quality of the document, is this document 
>really suitable for standards track?  It doesn't actually specify 
>any protocol, but instead just states requirements for an as-yet 
>nonexistant protocol.
>
>Hence, if it's published as an RFC, I'd think that it would be 
>Informative or perhaps a BCP.

I agree fully that this document is inappropriate for the standards 
track, and I do not think it is appropriate as a BCP either. This 
document should be informational.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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I received some comments. Here is the updated discussion summary.

What is the next step here? Are we going to morph CHANNEL or are=20
we going to have a separate draft. I would prefer a separate draft.

---------------------------
Abstract

  The problem of how to allow a client agent to gain access to media=20
  conversion capability on an IMAP server has several potential=20
  variations. This document outlines the issues as discussed within the
  LEMONADE working group.

1. Introduction and Overview

  In general, a client may be interested in receiving a MIME body part
  in streaming or non-streaming form. The case for retrieving a =
converted
  MIME body part in streaming form will be described in the WG profile=20
  document [PROFILE]. Therefore streaming mode will not be referred to =
in
  the remainder of this document. This document deals strictly with the=20
  case for non-streaming retrieval.

  The basic problem that needs to be solved is that the client must be=20
  able to discover what it can convert, what it can convert it to and=20
  while discovering this information it can not be flooded with large=20
  amounts of superfluous mapping information.=20

  Once the client is informed of the server capabilities it must be=20
  able to effectively retrieve the body part in the converted form.

  It was determined that it is not our goal to explicitly require or=20
  implicitly cause the server to perform conversions that are of no
  interest to the client. How the server determines the clients=20
  interest is open for design, but the server must know this interest
  prior to a conversion.

  An effective way to describe the problem is as the server providing a
  conversion function with one set of content types (Domain) mapping to=09
  another set of content types (Range). This mapping can potentially=20
  be very verbose to communicate. This potential verbosity must be=20
  mitigated.

2. Client Agent Capabilities

  A client is assumed to have sufficient intelligence to allow it
  to perform the following functions:

    1) The ability to probe the IMAP server to  discover what conversion
       capabilities the server has.

    2) The ability to make an intelligent choice regarding the target=20
       conversion. If the client software can not make a automatic =
choice
       it is recognized the client can pass the decision on to the user,
       but this must be deferred to as a last option.

    3) The ability to retrieve the converted body part to the client as=20
       it would retrieve a non-converted body part.
=20
  Based on these premises the option to allow the server to=20
  transparently perform conversions has been discarded within the=20
  working group. Even if the conversion were based on a priori =
knowledge,
  or out-of-band client capability discovery, the client must be=20
  involved in making the choice to convert and retrieve the target body
  part. This avoids the server having to rewrite a message into a new=20
  MIME structure.

3. IMAP Server Capabilities

  A server has the ability to change what it can convert at any time.
  The server may also have a potentially large set of conversion
  capabilities.=20

  Given these two facts, a client must be able to both discover the
  servers capabilities dynamically, and limit the amount of server=20
  capability communicated to the client to only that which the client is
  interested in at the moment.

  A server may still have a form of out-of-band client capability=20
  discovery. This may be used to allow the server to discover additional
  client parametric capabilities. An example of this would be the server
  finding out parameters it may use to convert image formats.

4. Client Discovery

  It is important that an efficient protocol for communicating the =
server
  capabilities be devised. The following options have been discussed in
  the WG:

    1) CONNEG style (RFC2703). This was discounted as a possibility=20
       because of it's complexity. This is a set intersection approach
       which is not needed because the client ultimately has a user it
       can ask to resolve an ambiguity of choice.

    2) Client tells the server what Range it can accept. Server tells =
the
       client the subset of these that it can convert to. This again is
       another version of the intersection approach. It does allow for=20
       a reduction of information being sent to the client.

       The problem is that if done strictly it results in an ambiguous=20
       situation for the client. The client never knows directly what=20
       the mapping is. It does know what item in the Range it may =
request
       , but it does not know what item in the Domain this is legal for.

    3) Client uses a form of Capabilities discovery by just asking the=20
       server what it supports for a particular item in the Domain of=20
       content types. The server responds with the entire Range it=20
       supports for that specific item.

       This approach has the advantage of being very dynamic, intuitive=20
       and direct. The disadvantage is that the client may receive Range =

       items which it does not care about.

    4) Server explicitly declares it's conversion capability in a=20
       CAPABILITY response. This has two serious drawbacks: one, it=20
       may make for a very cumbersome CAPABILITies string, and two, the
       client gets information it may not be interested in. This is
       the least desirable mode of operation.

5. Client Retrieval

  Once the client has decided that it wants to convert a specific MIME=20
  body part, and it has discovered that the server supports the desired
  conversion, it must retrieve the converted bytes.

  These bytes should be retrievable much the same way a FETCH allows=20
  the retrieval of an un-converted body part. Some form of partial=20
  retrieval should be allowed as well. The partial retrieval is useful
  in the same scenarios it would be useful during a normal FETCH.

  Conversion occurs on the IMAP server as the client requests it.

6. Bandwidth Optimization

  It has been observed that a form of bandwidth optimization may
  be achievable by using the same mechanism used in conversion to=20
  retrieve MIME body parts in a compressed form.

  An optimal approach would be to allow the following functionality:
 =20
    1) The client may request a conversion retrieval in a compressed
       format.

    2) The server would support NULL conversions for all MIME types
       in the Domain. The client would then be able to retrieve an=20
       unconverted MIME body part in compressed form by requesting
       a NULL conversion.

7. Normative References

   [PROFILE]   Maes, S. H., A. Melnikov,"Lemonade Profile",=20
	       draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-XX , 2005.

8. Author

   Michael J. Wener
   Nokia, Inc.
   Phone: (906) 202-0538
   EMail: Michael.Wener@Nokia.com


_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Feb  6 21:15:20 2005
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:06:03 -0800
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Can we get some more time to ponder on this? One more week may be before de=
ciding the next steps?

Thanks

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - RTCC & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 5:50 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update

I received some comments. Here is the updated discussion summary.

What is the next step here? Are we going to morph CHANNEL or are =

we going to have a separate draft. I would prefer a separate draft.

---------------------------
Abstract

  The problem of how to allow a client agent to gain access to media =

  conversion capability on an IMAP server has several potential =

  variations. This document outlines the issues as discussed within the
  LEMONADE working group.

1. Introduction and Overview

  In general, a client may be interested in receiving a MIME body part
  in streaming or non-streaming form. The case for retrieving a converted
  MIME body part in streaming form will be described in the WG profile =

  document [PROFILE]. Therefore streaming mode will not be referred to in
  the remainder of this document. This document deals strictly with the =

  case for non-streaming retrieval.

  The basic problem that needs to be solved is that the client must be =

  able to discover what it can convert, what it can convert it to and =

  while discovering this information it can not be flooded with large =

  amounts of superfluous mapping information. =


  Once the client is informed of the server capabilities it must be =

  able to effectively retrieve the body part in the converted form.

  It was determined that it is not our goal to explicitly require or =

  implicitly cause the server to perform conversions that are of no
  interest to the client. How the server determines the clients =

  interest is open for design, but the server must know this interest
  prior to a conversion.

  An effective way to describe the problem is as the server providing a
  conversion function with one set of content types (Domain) mapping to	=

  another set of content types (Range). This mapping can potentially =

  be very verbose to communicate. This potential verbosity must be =

  mitigated.

2. Client Agent Capabilities

  A client is assumed to have sufficient intelligence to allow it
  to perform the following functions:

    1) The ability to probe the IMAP server to  discover what conversion
       capabilities the server has.

    2) The ability to make an intelligent choice regarding the target =

       conversion. If the client software can not make a automatic choice
       it is recognized the client can pass the decision on to the user,
       but this must be deferred to as a last option.

    3) The ability to retrieve the converted body part to the client as =

       it would retrieve a non-converted body part.
 =

  Based on these premises the option to allow the server to =

  transparently perform conversions has been discarded within the =

  working group. Even if the conversion were based on a priori knowledge,
  or out-of-band client capability discovery, the client must be =

  involved in making the choice to convert and retrieve the target body
  part. This avoids the server having to rewrite a message into a new =

  MIME structure.

3. IMAP Server Capabilities

  A server has the ability to change what it can convert at any time.
  The server may also have a potentially large set of conversion
  capabilities. =


  Given these two facts, a client must be able to both discover the
  servers capabilities dynamically, and limit the amount of server =

  capability communicated to the client to only that which the client is
  interested in at the moment.

  A server may still have a form of out-of-band client capability =

  discovery. This may be used to allow the server to discover additional
  client parametric capabilities. An example of this would be the server
  finding out parameters it may use to convert image formats.

4. Client Discovery

  It is important that an efficient protocol for communicating the server
  capabilities be devised. The following options have been discussed in
  the WG:

    1) CONNEG style (RFC2703). This was discounted as a possibility =

       because of it's complexity. This is a set intersection approach
       which is not needed because the client ultimately has a user it
       can ask to resolve an ambiguity of choice.

    2) Client tells the server what Range it can accept. Server tells the
       client the subset of these that it can convert to. This again is
       another version of the intersection approach. It does allow for =

       a reduction of information being sent to the client.

       The problem is that if done strictly it results in an ambiguous =

       situation for the client. The client never knows directly what =

       the mapping is. It does know what item in the Range it may request
       , but it does not know what item in the Domain this is legal for.

    3) Client uses a form of Capabilities discovery by just asking the =

       server what it supports for a particular item in the Domain of =

       content types. The server responds with the entire Range it =

       supports for that specific item.

       This approach has the advantage of being very dynamic, intuitive =

       and direct. The disadvantage is that the client may receive Range =

       items which it does not care about.

    4) Server explicitly declares it's conversion capability in a =

       CAPABILITY response. This has two serious drawbacks: one, it =

       may make for a very cumbersome CAPABILITies string, and two, the
       client gets information it may not be interested in. This is
       the least desirable mode of operation.

5. Client Retrieval

  Once the client has decided that it wants to convert a specific MIME =

  body part, and it has discovered that the server supports the desired
  conversion, it must retrieve the converted bytes.

  These bytes should be retrievable much the same way a FETCH allows =

  the retrieval of an un-converted body part. Some form of partial =

  retrieval should be allowed as well. The partial retrieval is useful
  in the same scenarios it would be useful during a normal FETCH.

  Conversion occurs on the IMAP server as the client requests it.

6. Bandwidth Optimization

  It has been observed that a form of bandwidth optimization may
  be achievable by using the same mechanism used in conversion to =

  retrieve MIME body parts in a compressed form.

  An optimal approach would be to allow the following functionality:
  =

    1) The client may request a conversion retrieval in a compressed
       format.

    2) The server would support NULL conversions for all MIME types
       in the Domain. The client would then be able to retrieve an =

       unconverted MIME body part in compressed form by requesting
       a NULL conversion.

7. Normative References

   [PROFILE]   Maes, S. H., A. Melnikov,"Lemonade Profile", =

	       draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-XX , 2005.

8. Author

   Michael J. Wener
   Nokia, Inc.
   Phone: (906) 202-0538
   EMail: Michael.Wener@Nokia.com


_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade



_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From iunhc@lauderdale.net  Mon Feb  7 10:39:19 2005
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the wind. If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome. Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living in eternity. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand and melting like a snowflake. I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. Hope is like a road in the country: there was never a road, but when many people walk on it, the road comes into existence. The best proof of love is trust. The best proof of love is trust. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. The quality of the moment is more important than the number of our days. When a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. Iron rusts from disuse; stagnant water loses its purity and in cold weather becomes frozen; even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind. When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asleep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So, let's all get drunk and go to heaven! Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but because you are. When a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. The ultimate measure
 of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands in times of challenge and controversy. Reality is an illusion that occurs due to lack of alcohol. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but because you are. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. Love takes off masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. When love is not madness, it is not love. Change is inevitable, except from vending machines. When a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. No elected body is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay that way as long as we care to keep it so. The problem with some people is that when they aren't drunk, they're sober. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. Compassion is the antitoxin of the soul: where there is compassion even the most poisonous impulses remain relatively harmless. The problem with some people is that when they aren't drunk, they're sober. An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools. Autumn is the time when seasons merge because of bare necessity. Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow but a vision. But today well lived makes every yes
terday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore to this day. A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. Very little is needed to make a happy life. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. Memory is a child walking along a seashore. You never can tell what small pebble it will pick up and store away among its treasured things. Life is a waste of time, time is a waste of life, so get wasted all of the time and have the time of your life. If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. 

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<FONT face=3DArial>Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hy=
drogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vit=
al ingredient in beer. The problem with the world is that everyone is a fe=
w drinks behind. I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake u=
p in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. If you =
ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer, I bet it makes beer sh=
oot out your nose. All love shifts and changes. I don't know if you can be=
 wholeheartedly in love all the time. Treat people as if they were what th=
ey ought to be, and you help them to become what they are capable of being=
 Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow but a vision. But today well lived makes =
every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope.=
 Look well, therefore to this day. Very little is needed to make a happy l=
ife. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. Hatch a dream and=
 then believe it. I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. The gr=
eat thing about television is that if something important happens anywhere=
 in the world, day or night, you can always change the channel. Blessed is=
 the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordy evidenc=
e of the fact. Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be do=
ne, and why. Then do it. Friends are as companions on a journey, who ought=
 to aid each other to persevere in the road to a happier life. You can wid=
en your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. No matter wh=
at looms ahead, if you can eat today, enjoy today, mix good cheer with fri=
ends today enjoy it and bless God for it. What the world really needs is m=
ore love and less paper work. I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, tha=
n a frontal lobotomy. Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think=
 it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up. Always re=
member that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of=
 me. Who would give a law to lovers? Love is unto itself a higher law. Fri=
ends are as companions on a journey, who ought to aid each other to persev=
ere in the road to a happier life. The quality of the moment is more impor=
tant than the number of our days. A kiss makes the heart young again and w=
ipes out the years. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it =
you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a l=
ifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care =
of. Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living in eternity. We=
 have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand and melting like=
 a snowflake. Treat people as if they were what they ought to be, and you =
help them to become what they are capable of being. Reduce the complexity =
of life by eliminating the needless wants of life, and the labors of life =
reduce themselves. I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake=
 up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. Too o=
ften we give our children answers to remember rather than problems to solv=
e. Compassion alone stands apart from the continuous traffic between good =
and evil proceeding within us. The Babylon project was our last, best hope=
 for peace. .. It failed. .. But in the year of the Shadow war it became s=
omething greater: our last, best hope .. for victory. The year is 2260, th=
e place: Babylon 5.Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol t=
han alcohol has taken out of me. Always listen to experts. They'll tell yo=
u what can't be done, and why. Then do it. A human being should be able to=
 change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a shp, design a bu=
ilding, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfor=
t the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equatio=
ns, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty =
meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Alw=
ays remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken =
out of me. If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we=
 did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.=
 Compassion alone stands apart from the continuous traffic between good an=
d evil proceeding within us. Who so loves believes the impossible. Books a=
re the shoes with which we tread the footsteps of great minds. Love is alw=
ays bestowed as a gift - freely, willingly and without expectation. We don=
't love to be loved; we love to love. 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a cas=
e. Coincidence? Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains fr=
om giving us wordy evidence of the fact. Love is the beauty of the soul. C=
an miles truly separate you from friends... If you want to be with someone=
 you love, aren't you already there? All right, Brain, I don't like you an=
d you don't like me -- so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing =
you with beer. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrog=
en and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital i=
ngredient in beer. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hy=
drogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vit=
al ingredient in beer. No matter what looms ahead, if you can eat today, e=
njoy today, mix good cheer with friends today enjoy it and bless God for i=
t. Reduce the complexity of life by eliminating the needless wants of life=
, and the labors of life reduce themselves. All right, Brain, I don't like=
 you and you don't like me -- so let's just do this and I'll get back to k=
illing you with beer. Hope is like a road in the country: there was never =
a road, but when many people walk on it, the road comes into existence. Ta=
ke away love and our earth is a tomb. True friendship comes when the silen=
ce between two people is comfortable. I would like to believe when I die t=
hat I have given myself away like a tree that sows seed every spring and n=
ever counts the loss, because it is not loss, it is adding to future life.=
  It is the tree's way of being.  Strongly rooted perhaps, but spilling ou=
t its treasure on the wind. If we had no winter, the spring would not be s=
o pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would n=
ot be so welcome. Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living i=
n eternity. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand an=
d melting like a snowflake. I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When =
they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all d=
ay. Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. You can wide=
n your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounte=
r that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too =
many, only too many to properly take care of. A woman drove me to drink an=
d I didn't even have the decency to thank her. Hope is like a road in the =
country: there was never a road, but when many people walk on it, the road=
 comes into existence. The best proof of love is trust. The best proof of =
love is trust. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you n=
eed a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeli=
ne. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. T=
he quality of the moment is more important than the number of our days. Wh=
en a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything =
you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. Iron rusts from disu=
se; stagnant water loses its purity and in cold weather becomes frozen; ev=
en so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind. When we drink, we get drunk=
 When we get drunk, we fall asleep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin=
 When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So, let's all get drunk and go t=
o heaven! Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you. =
Not because they are nice, but because you are. When a friend is in troubl=
e, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything you can do. Think up som=
ething appropriate and do it. Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk=
 That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. The ultimate measure of a m=
an is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where=
 he stands in times of challenge and controversy. Reality is an illusion t=
hat occurs due to lack of alcohol. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chem=
icals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to m=
ake water, a vital ingredient in beer. Treat everyone with politeness, eve=
n those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but because you ar=
e. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It h=
elps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, bu=
t at the very least you need a beer. Love takes off masks that we fear we =
cannot live without and know we cannot live within. A woman drove me to dr=
ink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. When love is not madn=
ess, it is not love. Change is inevitable, except from vending machines. W=
hen a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything=
 you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. You can widen your =
life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that =
becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, o=
nly too many to properly take care of. No elected body is the country, we =
are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay that way as long as we c=
are to keep it so. The problem with some people is that when they aren't d=
runk, they're sober. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer an=
d an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some n=
uclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. Compassion is the a=
ntitoxin of the soul: where there is compassion even the most poisonous im=
pulses remain relatively harmless. The problem with some people is that wh=
en they aren't drunk, they're sober. An intelligent man is sometimes force=
d to be drunk to spend time with his fools. Autumn is the time when season=
s merge because of bare necessity. Yesterday is a dream, tomorrow but a vi=
sion. But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and=
 every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore to this day. A woma=
n drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. Very =
little is needed to make a happy life. It is all within yourself, in your =
way of thinking. You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an=
 airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nucle=
ar weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. Memory is a child walki=
ng along a seashore. You never can tell what small pebble it will pick up =
and store away among its treasured things. Life is a waste of time, time i=
s a waste of life, so get wasted all of the time and have the time of your=
 life. If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we did=
 not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome. You=
 can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each=
 encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never =
have too many, only too many to properly take care of.=20</FONT>
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb  7 11:43:50 2005
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:35:49 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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Hi Michael,

--On February 6, 2005 7:50:12 PM -0600 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

> 4. Client Discovery
>
>   It is important that an efficient protocol for communicating the server
>   capabilities be devised. The following options have been discussed in
>   the WG:

I would like to suggest another set of options for this:

1) ANNOTATEMORE can be used to 'advertise' the server's mapping 
capabilities in detail rather than forcing all of that into CAPABILITY or a 
new command to discover the mappings.

2) The ANNOTATE extension allows annotations on a per-body part basis, so 
ANNOTATE can be used by the server to advertise the explicit set of 
mappings it can perform on each body part. Clients can then fetch those 
annotations at the same time as it fetches the message envelope or 
bodystructure data, thus avoiding a roundtrip for the mapping discovery.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

_______________________________________________
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb  7 17:14:07 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] 
	CFP: IEEE WirelessCom Symposium on Mobile Computing, 2005
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(Our apologies if you receive multiple copies of this CFP)

-------------------------------------------------------------
                Second Call for Papers
           Symposium on Mobile Computing
  http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~younis/WC_MobCom05.htm
                  as part of 
             IEEE WirelessCom 2005
Sheraton Maui Resort, Kaanapali Beach, Maui, Hawaii, USA
http://www.ece.queensu.ca/hpages/faculty/safwat/wirelesscom/05/
                 June 13-16, 2005
  Technical Sponsorship: IEEE TCCC, TCPC, and SSCTC


Recent years have witnessed an enormous growth in the development
and applications of mobile computing environments and devices.
Many practitioners envision a future empowered with context and
location aware computation and communication infrastructure that
allow users to access data and receive service at any place and
any time. Compared to conventional platforms, the mobility of
computing nodes introduces many challenges to the design of almost
all systems components.

This symposium will foster a forum for discussing and presenting
recent research results on mobile computer systems. Original
papers are invited in the broader area of mobile computing. Papers
must report high-quality and previously unpublished work. Topics
of interest include, but are not limited to, the following:

-  Architecture and infrastructure support	
-  Middleware and operating systems services
-  Development platforms and environments
-  Adaptive resource management schemes
-  Pervasive and Context-aware Computing
-  Performance metrics and studies
-  Power aware computation and communication
-  Data consistency and synchronization protocols
-  Fault-tolerant architectural and operation models
-  Wearable computing devices and systems
-  Time constrained mobile systems
-  Robust ad-hoc networking techniques
-  Efficient localization techniques
-  Wireless sensor networks
-  Mobile peer to peer systems
-  Quality of service provisioning
-  Context-conscious computing
-  Web caching and services
-  Emerging applications and systems
-  Mobile agents
-  Mobile commerce
-  Security and privacy issues


Submission Guidelines
---------------------
Prospective authors should submit their paper electronically to
younis@csee.umbc.edu.  All papers are limited to 6 pages in MS-Word, PS 
or PDF using standard IEEE double-column format. The first page should 
include title, authors' contact information, an abstract and five 
keywords. Authors should attach the paper abstract to their message.

Important Dates
---------------
Paper Submission Deadline:      March 15, 2005
Notification of Acceptance:     April 15, 2005
Camera-Ready Papers:            May 1, 2005

Symposium Co-Chairs
-------------------
Mohamed Younis
Department of Computer Science and Electrical Engineering
University of Maryland Baltimore County,
E-mail: younis@csee.umbc.edu 

Hesham El-Rewini
Department of Computer Science and Engineering
Southern Methodist University
E-mail: rewini@engr.smu.edu


Publicity Chair
----------------
Moustafa Youssef
Department of Computer Science
University of Maryland at College Park,
E-mail: moustafa@cs.umd.edu 



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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb  7 17:24:39 2005
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:31:51 -0600
Message-ID: <225A4E03D0EE5245A5C5F7E7B7C1F27A016D3CFE@daebe005.americas.nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Cyrus Daboo [mailto:daboo@isamet.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:36 AM
...
> --On February 6, 2005 7:50:12 PM -0600 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
>=20
> > 4. Client Discovery
> >
> >   It is important that an efficient protocol for=20
> communicating the server
> >   capabilities be devised. The following options have been=20
> discussed in
> >   the WG:
>=20
> I would like to suggest another set of options for this:
>=20
> 1) ANNOTATEMORE can be used to 'advertise' the server's mapping=20
> capabilities in detail rather than forcing all of that into=20
> CAPABILITY or a=20
> new command to discover the mappings.

I like this idea a lot.

>=20
> 2) The ANNOTATE extension allows annotations on a per-body=20
> part basis, so=20
> ANNOTATE can be used by the server to advertise the explicit set of=20
> mappings it can perform on each body part. Clients can then=20
> fetch those=20
> annotations at the same time as it fetches the message envelope or=20
> bodystructure data, thus avoiding a roundtrip for the mapping=20
> discovery.

I don't like this approach. This suffers from the problem of=20
being redundant. It would seem very unlikely that a server would=20
advertise that it can convert X into Y for one message and not=20
another. So why have the client ask for each message, when it=20
can discover this via ANNOTATEMORE.

Mike

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb  8 03:39:09 2005
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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From: "Weingarten Jerry" <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>
To: <Michael.Wener@nokia.com>, <daboo@isamet.com>, <lemonade@ietf.org>
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Hi,

I know that we have already had this discussion - but I would like to
see us supporting both of these options.  I do not like the idea of
having the client retaining the list of possible conversions when what
he is really interested in is - "how do I fetch the body parts of the
current message?"  The first option meand that either at the beginning
of each session the client is asking questions that may not be relevant
and remembering the list of conversions or that the client retains this
information across sessions, also not very savory.

jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:32 PM
To: daboo@isamet.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Cyrus Daboo [mailto:daboo@isamet.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:36 AM
...
> --On February 6, 2005 7:50:12 PM -0600 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
>=20
> > 4. Client Discovery
> >
> >   It is important that an efficient protocol for
> communicating the server
> >   capabilities be devised. The following options have been
> discussed in
> >   the WG:
>=20
> I would like to suggest another set of options for this:
>=20
> 1) ANNOTATEMORE can be used to 'advertise' the server's mapping=20
> capabilities in detail rather than forcing all of that into CAPABILITY

> or a new command to discover the mappings.

I like this idea a lot.

>=20
> 2) The ANNOTATE extension allows annotations on a per-body part basis,

> so ANNOTATE can be used by the server to advertise the explicit set of

> mappings it can perform on each body part. Clients can then fetch=20
> those annotations at the same time as it fetches the message envelope=20
> or bodystructure data, thus avoiding a roundtrip for the mapping=20
> discovery.

I don't like this approach. This suffers from the problem of being
redundant. It would seem very unlikely that a server would advertise
that it can convert X into Y for one message and not another. So why
have the client ask for each message, when it can discover this via
ANNOTATEMORE.

Mike

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______________________________________________________________________
  This email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-Secure and has
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb  8 09:46:43 2005
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From: Corby.Wilson@nokia.com
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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I keep thinking it would be easier to invert the problem.
Since the client is the one with the limited capabilities, why not have
the client advertise it's capabilities to the server at the beginning of
a session.  This way it's the server's responsibility to remember the
clients' range.
The only problem here is that now the server determines the first-pass
best translation method.  This would mean that the client and server
would need to negotiate, but most likely first-pass would be accepted by
the client 95% of the time since the server is basing it's decision on
the list the client sent.
The MIME type range sent by the client could be sent in preference order
so the server choice would be deterministic.

Corby Wilson

=20
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Weingarten Jerry
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 03:35 AM
> To: Wener Michael (Nokia-ES/Pittsburgh); daboo@isamet.com;=20
> lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I know that we have already had this discussion - but I would=20
> like to see us supporting both of these options.  I do not=20
> like the idea of having the client retaining the list of=20
> possible conversions when what he is really interested in is=20
> - "how do I fetch the body parts of the current message?" =20
> The first option meand that either at the beginning of each=20
> session the client is asking questions that may not be=20
> relevant and remembering the list of conversions or that the=20
> client retains this information across sessions, also not very savory.
>=20
> jerry
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> Michael.Wener@nokia.com
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:32 PM
> To: daboo@isamet.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ext Cyrus Daboo [mailto:daboo@isamet.com]
> > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 11:36 AM
> ...
> > --On February 6, 2005 7:50:12 PM -0600=20
> Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> >=20
> > > 4. Client Discovery
> > >
> > >   It is important that an efficient protocol for
> > communicating the server
> > >   capabilities be devised. The following options have been
> > discussed in
> > >   the WG:
> >=20
> > I would like to suggest another set of options for this:
> >=20
> > 1) ANNOTATEMORE can be used to 'advertise' the server's mapping=20
> > capabilities in detail rather than forcing all of that into=20
> CAPABILITY
>=20
> > or a new command to discover the mappings.
>=20
> I like this idea a lot.
>=20
> >=20
> > 2) The ANNOTATE extension allows annotations on a per-body=20
> part basis,
>=20
> > so ANNOTATE can be used by the server to advertise the=20
> explicit set of
>=20
> > mappings it can perform on each body part. Clients can then fetch=20
> > those annotations at the same time as it fetches the=20
> message envelope=20
> > or bodystructure data, thus avoiding a roundtrip for the mapping=20
> > discovery.
>=20
> I don't like this approach. This suffers from the problem of=20
> being redundant. It would seem very unlikely that a server=20
> would advertise that it can convert X into Y for one message=20
> and not another. So why have the client ask for each message,=20
> when it can discover this via ANNOTATEMORE.
>=20
> Mike
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> ______________________________________________________________________
>   This email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-Secure=20
> and has been found clean.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
>=20

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:19:52 -0600
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To: <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>, <daboo@isamet.com>, <lemonade@ietf.org>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Weingarten Jerry [mailto:Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 3:35 AM
> > > 4. Client Discovery
...
> I know that we have already had this discussion - but I would like to
> see us supporting both of these options.  I do not like the idea of
> having the client retaining the list of possible conversions when what
> he is really interested in is - "how do I fetch the body parts of the
> current message?" =20

You would agree the client is interested in this for more then=20
one message, though? If the client needs MIME Type X converted
then it should not matter which message has a part of type X.

> The first option meand that either at the beginning
> of each session the client is asking questions that may not=20
> be relevant

The client can ask only relevant questions. No one is forcing
the client to ask irrelevant questions.

We can design it such that the client will ask specifically
what it needs to know for all messages with MIME type X. Then
it will not have to ask over and over again for each message=20
with MIME type X.

> and remembering the list of conversions or that the client=20

Remembering during a session seems very reasonable to me.

> retains this
> information across sessions, also not very savory.

I certainly agree the client should not remember across=20
sessions.

Mike

> > 1) ANNOTATEMORE can be used to 'advertise' the server's mapping=20
> > capabilities in detail rather than forcing all of that into=20
> CAPABILITY
>=20
> > or a new command to discover the mappings.
...
> > 2) The ANNOTATE extension allows annotations on a per-body=20
> part basis,
>=20
> > so ANNOTATE can be used by the server to advertise the=20
> explicit set of
>=20
> > mappings it can perform on each body part. Clients can then fetch=20
> > those annotations at the same time as it fetches the=20
> message envelope=20
> > or bodystructure data, thus avoiding a roundtrip for the mapping=20
> > discovery.

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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:49:55 -0800
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
To: Corby.Wilson@nokia.com, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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--On 2005-2-8 8:33 AM -0600 Corby.Wilson@nokia.com wrote:

> I keep thinking it would be easier to invert the problem.
> Since the client is the one with the limited capabilities, why not
> have the client advertise it's capabilities to the server at the
> beginning of a session.  This way it's the server's responsibility to
> remember the clients' range.

I like this. (I've been wrestling with how to efficiently handle 
"resource discovery" of the transformation list in Channel when the 
server supports a large set of conversions, thus the delay for an 
updated draft). I think it's safe to assume that clients that require 
conversion will support a limited set of target media types. Let me run 
out a new draft based on this concept. I think it will address most of 
the concerns brought up at and since the Vancouver meeting.

Not related to this, someone mentioned that the set of transformations 
could change in the lifetime of an IMAP session, and that the protocol 
needs to handle these dynamic updates. I find it hard to believe that 
this would really be the case. Can anyone give some real world example 
of how and where this would be the case? And justify the added 
complexity in the client state machine to support this dynamic 
behaviour? (Yes, I'm against this. But I'm willing to be proved wrong.)

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb  9 08:05:57 2005
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From: "Weingarten Jerry" <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>
To: "Lyndon Nerenberg" <lyndon@orthanc.ca>, <Corby.Wilson@nokia.com>,
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=20
Hi,

A few notes on this -

1.  This is very similar to what I suggested just prior to the SF
meeting and also to what Cyrus was suggesting by using the ANNOTATE as
the carrier for the information.  In essence, the server acquires the
client's capabilities (possibly by using CC/PP, UAProf, or any other
mechanism) and make suggestions for each message part of what formats
the body part could be retrieved in.  The client then decides how it
wants to retrieve the different body parts, based on these suggestions.
This gives some control to the server but is not as drastic as MMS
(where the server does everything without consulting the client).

2.  It is unclear to me what you, Corby, mean when you say "the client
advertise it's capabilities to the server at the beginning of a session"
is this being advertised as part of the IMAP LOGIN or could it be done
by using CC/PP or something similar?

jerry
-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Lyndon Nerenberg
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:50 AM
To: Corby.Wilson@nokia.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update

--On 2005-2-8 8:33 AM -0600 Corby.Wilson@nokia.com wrote:

> I keep thinking it would be easier to invert the problem.
> Since the client is the one with the limited capabilities, why not=20
> have the client advertise it's capabilities to the server at the=20
> beginning of a session.  This way it's the server's responsibility to=20
> remember the clients' range.

I like this. (I've been wrestling with how to efficiently handle
"resource discovery" of the transformation list in Channel when the
server supports a large set of conversions, thus the delay for an
updated draft). I think it's safe to assume that clients that require
conversion will support a limited set of target media types. Let me run
out a new draft based on this concept. I think it will address most of
the concerns brought up at and since the Vancouver meeting.

Not related to this, someone mentioned that the set of transformations
could change in the lifetime of an IMAP session, and that the protocol
needs to handle these dynamic updates. I find it hard to believe that
this would really be the case. Can anyone give some real world example
of how and where this would be the case? And justify the added
complexity in the client state machine to support this dynamic
behaviour? (Yes, I'm against this. But I'm willing to be proved wrong.)

--lyndon

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> I like this. (I've been wrestling with how to efficiently handle=20
> "resource discovery" of the transformation list in Channel when the=20
> server supports a large set of conversions, thus the delay for an=20
> updated draft).=20

It is very simple. You allow the client to ask limiting questions.=20
The client knows best so it asks for only the information it=20
needs.

> Not related to this, someone mentioned that the set of=20
> transformations=20
> could change in the lifetime of an IMAP session, and that the=20
> protocol=20

I don't know who said that. I did say that the set of=20
transformations could change during the lifetime of a=20
server.=20

You don't disagree that a server may be upgraded with
new transformation capability?

Mike

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From: Corby.Wilson@nokia.com
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:51:01 -0600
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Thread-Topic: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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To: <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>, <lyndon@orthanc.ca>, <lemonade@ietf.org>
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I don't think it needs to be as complicated as CC/PP.
The mech I had in mind was that if the client sees the media conversion
capability on login:
	1. the client can send a separate command to notify the server
that the client supports media conversion
	2. the server should start using it
	3. here is the list of MIME types the client supports.
(This is all in one command)
Of course we can do this using CC/PP as well.

What I like about this is that the media conversion preferences are
indicated once at the beginning of the session, not for each body part.
Negotiating for each body part sends allot of data that has been sent
before.  This would reduce the number of commands sent to negotiate
conversion type and eliminate the ambiguous case since a preference
order list would be used.  There would never be a need to ask the user
to solve ambiguous cases (I hated this from the beginning, the user
should never be involved in something like this).=20

Corby Wilson

=20
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Weingarten Jerry [mailto:Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 08:00 AM
> To: Lyndon Nerenberg; Wilson Corby (Nokia-ES/Pittsburgh);=20
> lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update
>=20
> =20
> Hi,
>=20
> A few notes on this -
>=20
> 1.  This is very similar to what I suggested just prior to=20
> the SF meeting and also to what Cyrus was suggesting by using=20
> the ANNOTATE as the carrier for the information.  In essence,=20
> the server acquires the client's capabilities (possibly by=20
> using CC/PP, UAProf, or any other
> mechanism) and make suggestions for each message part of what=20
> formats the body part could be retrieved in.  The client then=20
> decides how it wants to retrieve the different body parts,=20
> based on these suggestions.
> This gives some control to the server but is not as drastic=20
> as MMS (where the server does everything without consulting=20
> the client).
>=20
> 2.  It is unclear to me what you, Corby, mean when you say=20
> "the client advertise it's capabilities to the server at the=20
> beginning of a session"
> is this being advertised as part of the IMAP LOGIN or could=20
> it be done by using CC/PP or something similar?
>=20
> jerry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lyndon Nerenberg
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:50 AM
> To: Corby.Wilson@nokia.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG Media Conversion Summary - Update
>=20
> --On 2005-2-8 8:33 AM -0600 Corby.Wilson@nokia.com wrote:
>=20
> > I keep thinking it would be easier to invert the problem.
> > Since the client is the one with the limited capabilities, why not=20
> > have the client advertise it's capabilities to the server at the=20
> > beginning of a session.  This way it's the server's=20
> responsibility to=20
> > remember the clients' range.
>=20
> I like this. (I've been wrestling with how to efficiently=20
> handle "resource discovery" of the transformation list in=20
> Channel when the server supports a large set of conversions,=20
> thus the delay for an updated draft). I think it's safe to=20
> assume that clients that require conversion will support a=20
> limited set of target media types. Let me run out a new draft=20
> based on this concept. I think it will address most of the=20
> concerns brought up at and since the Vancouver meeting.
>=20
> Not related to this, someone mentioned that the set of=20
> transformations could change in the lifetime of an IMAP=20
> session, and that the protocol needs to handle these dynamic=20
> updates. I find it hard to believe that this would really be=20
> the case. Can anyone give some real world example of how and=20
> where this would be the case? And justify the added=20
> complexity in the client state machine to support this=20
> dynamic behaviour? (Yes, I'm against this. But I'm willing to=20
> be proved wrong.)
>=20
> --lyndon
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> ______________________________________________________________________
>   This email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-Secure=20
> and has been found clean.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb  9 11:20:41 2005
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:16:42 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Weingarten Jerry <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>, Corby.Wilson@nokia.com,
        lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE WG  Media Conversion Summary - Update
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Hi Weingarten,

--On February 9, 2005 3:00:22 PM +0200 Weingarten Jerry 
<Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com> wrote:

> 2.  It is unclear to me what you, Corby, mean when you say "the client
> advertise it's capabilities to the server at the beginning of a session"
> is this being advertised as part of the IMAP LOGIN or could it be done
> by using CC/PP or something similar?

RFC2971 (IMAP ID extension) could be used by the client to advertise 
features to the server.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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I've put together a draft describing a proposal that uses ANNOTATEMORE
as the vehicle for discovery. Please provide comments.

I've copied both imapext and lemonade because it is relevant to both.
I would suggest any discussion be confined to the lemonade list.

I've submitted the draft, but until then you can find it at the link=20
below.

http://ietf.webdav.org/imapext/draft-wener-lemonade-conversion-00.txt

Mike

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Subject: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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Besides some editorial comments, we did have the following substantial point
of discussion: does CATENATE work only in the selected state or should we
extend it now to work for any mailbox on the server, knowing that in the
future if we say selected state only we will end up extending it to work for
any mailbox on the server in the future?

I'm hearing a SLIGHT consensus towards it working for any mailbox, but I'd
like to re-poll the server implementers on this issue again.



>>>Ken Murchison wrote:
>>>Point of clarification: Are we saying that CATENATE is *only* valid in
the selected state (where the URL MUST NOT refer to a different mailbox) or
is it also allowed in authenticated state? A note in the text says that "the
CATENATE command is valid in the selected state", but doesn't say "only". 

>>Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>Currently it is only allowed in the selected state. However, my gut
feeling is that CATENATE will be extended in the future, so it will be
allowed in other states. My preference is to leave the wording as is. 
>>
>>Why not just open it up now? Are we worried about implementation problems?
Even in selected state, wouldn't it be desirable to allow parts of messages
from another mailbox to be used? 

>Ken Murchison wrote:
>I think we had this argument before. Restricting CATENATE to the currently
selected mailbox makes server implementations easier.
Of course, if we allow for something evil like http URLs, there is no need
to have any mailbox selected :-).
>
>I personally prefer no restriction, even though I agree that this will need
more work for server implementors.


Alexey

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Subject: [lemonade] Document Action: 'Goals for Internet Messaging to
 Support Diverse Service Environments' to Informational RFC 
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Goals for Internet Messaging to Support Diverse Service Environments '
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-05.txt> as an Informational RFC

This document is the product of the Enhancements to Internet email to support 
diverse service environments Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Ted Hardie and Scott Hollenbeck.

Technical Summary
 
This is an informational document that captures the thinking of the Lemonade
working group; it sets out the problems to be tackled.  

Working Group Summary
 
There was concensus in the working group to put this forward as an
InformationalRFC.
 
Protocol Quality
 
This document was reviewed for the IESG by Ted Hardie.

RFC Editor Note
 
OLD:

 6.1.2.5  CLID Restriction indication/preservation

   Many calling features are dependent upon collected caller-ID
   information.  Trusted clients such as the TUI, and other service
   supporting user agents such as WEB and WAP servers may have access to
   restricted caller-ID information for such purposes as callback.
   Untrusted clients must not receive this information.  A mechanism for
   communicating "trust" between the client and the server is required
   to deliver this information to the end-user when appropriate.

NEW:

6.1.2.5  CLID Restriction indication/preservation

   Many calling features are dependent on collected caller-ID
   information.  The TUI and other service supporting user agents
   defined in specific deployments (such and WEB and WAP servers)
   may have access to restricted caller-ID information in order to
  provide callback or related services.  In the Lemonade context,
  a mechanism which allows caller-ID information to be delivered
  to the end-user must use an authorization mechanism which
  similarly restricts access to caller-ID information.


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Feb 10 15:06:08 2005
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:50:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Eric Burger wrote:
> Besides some editorial comments, we did have the following substantial point
> of discussion: does CATENATE work only in the selected state or should we
> extend it now to work for any mailbox on the server, knowing that in the
> future if we say selected state only we will end up extending it to work for
> any mailbox on the server in the future?
>
> I'm hearing a SLIGHT consensus towards it working for any mailbox, but I'd
> like to re-poll the server implementers on this issue again.

The only benefit to making CATENATE work only in selected state is if we 
also restrict CATENATE's arguments to something like:
  catenate-att   = string / "RFC822" [".HEADER" / ".TEXT"] /
                   "BODY" section ["<" number "." nz-number ">"] /
                   "BODY.PEEK" section ["<" number "." nz-number ">"]
This was more or less Pete's original proposal.

I believe that it is pointless to accept a URI as a CATENATE argument 
without allowing (at least) other mailboxes on the same server; and in 
that case it is equally pointless to restrict CATENATE to selected state.

Note that APPEND, the command which CATENATE most closely resembles, is 
allowed in both selected and authenticated state.

On another point, we can make CATENATE support MULTIAPPEND by wrapping the
attributes with paren.  In that case, we don't need a CATENATE command at 
all, just the CATENATE extension!

That is, CATENATE would become a new form of APPEND that replaces 
the literal argument with
 	"(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"

I like this idea.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Feb 10 17:35:24 2005
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Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Eric Burger wrote:
> 
>> Besides some editorial comments, we did have the following substantial 
>> point
>> of discussion: does CATENATE work only in the selected state or should we
>> extend it now to work for any mailbox on the server, knowing that in the
>> future if we say selected state only we will end up extending it to 
>> work for
>> any mailbox on the server in the future?
>>
>> I'm hearing a SLIGHT consensus towards it working for any mailbox, but 
>> I'd
>> like to re-poll the server implementers on this issue again.
> 
> 
> The only benefit to making CATENATE work only in selected state is if we 
> also restrict CATENATE's arguments to something like:
>  catenate-att   = string / "RFC822" [".HEADER" / ".TEXT"] /
>                   "BODY" section ["<" number "." nz-number ">"] /
>                   "BODY.PEEK" section ["<" number "." nz-number ">"]
> This was more or less Pete's original proposal.
> 
> I believe that it is pointless to accept a URI as a CATENATE argument 
> without allowing (at least) other mailboxes on the same server; and in 
> that case it is equally pointless to restrict CATENATE to selected state.

I agree.  Having just written some proto-type CATENATE code for the 
Cyrus server, it wouldn't be that difficult to extend it to work in 
authenticated (non-selected) state.


> Note that APPEND, the command which CATENATE most closely resembles, is 
> allowed in both selected and authenticated state.
> 
> On another point, we can make CATENATE support MULTIAPPEND by wrapping the
> attributes with paren.  In that case, we don't need a CATENATE command 
> at all, just the CATENATE extension!
> 
> That is, CATENATE would become a new form of APPEND that replaces the 
> literal argument with
>     "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
> 
> I like this idea.

This would work for me.

-- 
Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ken Murchison wrote:
>> On another point, we can make CATENATE support MULTIAPPEND by wrapping the
>> attributes with paren.  In that case, we don't need a CATENATE command at 
>> all, just the CATENATE extension!
>> That is, CATENATE would become a new form of APPEND that replaces the 
>> literal argument with
>>     "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
>> I like this idea.
> This would work for me.

Damn!  I wish that I had had this idea sooner.

It avoids adding Yet Another Stupid Command to IMAP.  It extends APPEND in 
an obvious way.

Unfortunately, due to APPEND's stupid syntax, we have to modify this 
proposal a bit to make the APPEND flag-list argument be mandatory. 
Something like:

append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
                   ;;; only a single append-message if MULTIAPPEND
                   ;;; capability not present

append-message  = append-simple / append-complex

append-simple   = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] SP literal

append-complex  = SP flag-list [SP date-time] SP
                   "(" catenate-att [1*(SP catenate-att)] ")"

I still think that this is better than a separate CATENATE command with 
non-overlapping functionality.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Hiya folks,

I've been looking at varius drafts with a view to implementing them in my client.

BURL:

BURL looks fine to me, although I do wonder if it could be enhanced to accept http scheme URLs - it's far from essential, but I can imagine a situation where a salesman on the road wishes to send a document to a customer which resides on, say, a WebDAV "office share".

I'd like to see some examples of use where BURL, CHUNKING, and BINARY are supported - I think this might be a very interesting case, and it's what I'm hoping to be capable of supporting.

URLAUTH:

For use with BURL (or CATENATE), this seems perfectly fine.

For use as a generalized "sharing a message" feature, I worry that URLFETCH doesn't allow for fetching subparts of messages, examination of messages before fetching, etc.

There's a certain amount of use, I feel, of being able to use URLAUTH to, in effect, publish individual messages within a mailbox.

To put it another way, I feel that URLAUTH is fine for its stated scope, but I think its scope could be made wider.

However, this could most likely be handled by a further extension, rather than changing the existing specification, which looks as if it'll be fine.

CATENATE:

1) I saw Mark Crispin's comments in the archive, and agree with them - much better to extend APPEND/MULTIAPPEND than create a new command.

2) I'd prefer it to work on authenticated state as well. APPEND does, so (1) implies this anyway. I consider both of these to be fairly minor.

3) A minor nit: I'd prefer it if the examples used different tags - it just makes it easier to refer to them.

4) I'm wondering whether a client could use this to, for instance, change the Content-Disposition of a part, or other MIME part-specific headers. Content-Description would be particularly useful as well.

5) It's unclear to me whether the server is strictly required to place suitable MIME headers based on a URL or not - the examples imply that this is so, but the text appears to specifically state this is not so:

Section 3, "[...] as if the literal returned in a FETCH BODY response were put in place of the message part specifier.", which appears to suggest, to me, that it's the BODY[x.y], not the BODY[x.y.MIME] as well.


Finally, while I think I'll have URLAUTH and CATENATE enabled IMAP servers to test against in the near future, I don't know of a BURL/BINARY/CHUNKING capable submission server - if anyone has such a beast, I'd gratefully appreciate access. In fact, any implementations of any submission or IMAP extensions would be very useful - I've had CONDSTORE support for a while I'm unable to test.

Anyone who wants a copy of the client - and the underlying library - is welcome to have it under a GPL license. It's written in Python, using wxPython as the UI, and is intended to be cross-platform across Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, etc. It requires an ACAP account, and I'll happily hand them out on the assumption that nobody has an ACAP server.

Dave.

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> URLAUTH:
...
> For use as a generalized "sharing a message" feature, I worry=20
> that URLFETCH doesn't allow for fetching subparts of=20
...
> However, this could most likely be handled by a further=20
> extension, rather than changing the existing specification,=20
> which looks as if it'll be fine.

There was a discussion regarding partial fetches and URLFETCH
earlier. Here is the start of the discussion ...

http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg00931.html

Mike

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Dave Cridland wrote:

> BURL looks fine to me, although I do wonder if it could be enhanced to 
> accept http scheme URLs - it's far from essential, but I can imagine a 
> situation where a salesman on the road wishes to send a document to a 
> customer which resides on, say, a WebDAV "office share".

I think this is something some of us are keeping in mind.
I think the only thing required is that the Submission server advertises 
support of HTTP URLs?
[...]

> There's a certain amount of use, I feel, of being able to use URLAUTH 
> to, in effect, publish individual messages within a mailbox.
>
> To put it another way, I feel that URLAUTH is fine for its stated 
> scope, but I think its scope could be made wider.
>
> However, this could most likely be handled by a further extension, 
> rather than changing the existing specification, which looks as if 
> it'll be fine.

This can also be easily dealt with by extending IMAP URL syntax.

> CATENATE:
>
> [...]
> 4) I'm wondering whether a client could use this to, for instance, 
> change the Content-Disposition of a part, or other MIME part-specific 
> headers. Content-Description would be particularly useful as well.

I think IMAP URL "section" syntax allows for that.


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Dave Cridland wrote:

> 5) It's unclear to me whether the server is strictly required to place 
> suitable MIME headers based on a URL or not - the examples imply that 
> this is so, but the text appears to specifically state this is not so:
>
> Section 3, "[...] as if the literal returned in a FETCH BODY response 
> were put in place of the message part specifier.", which appears to 
> suggest, to me, that it's the BODY[x.y], not the BODY[x.y.MIME] as well.

IMAP URL allows you to do either:
<imap://foo@example.org/gray-council/;uid=20/;section=1.2.MIME>


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On Fri Feb 11 13:17:53 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Dave Cridland wrote:
> 
>> 5) It's unclear to me whether the server is strictly required to place suitable MIME headers based on a URL or not - the examples imply that this is so, but the text appears to specifically state this is not so:
>> 
>> Section 3, "[...] as if the literal returned in a FETCH BODY response were put in place of the message part specifier.", which appears to suggest, to me, that it's the BODY[x.y], not the BODY[x.y.MIME] as well.
> 
> IMAP URL allows you to do either:
> <imap://foo@example.org/gray-council/;uid=20/;section=1.2.MIME>
> 

Yes, that specifies purely the MIME headers. [...];section=1.2 specifies purely the body of the part, and not the MIME headers, but according to the examples, that's enough - I don't need to include the headers as well. According to that excerpt from section 3 above, though, I need to provide the headers.

I'd like to assume that CATENATE is clever enough that if I specify a part only, with no headers, it would use the headers from that part. But then, if I want to change the headers, then what, exactly, do I send?

To borrow the first example from Appendix A:

C: D001 CATENATE Drafts FLAGS (\Seen \Draft $MDNSent) URL "imap://imap.example.org/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=20;section=HEADER" TEXT {40+}
--------------030308070208000400050907
 URL "imap://imap.example.org/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=20;section=1.1" TEXT {N+}
--------------030308070208000400050907
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=stuff.txt
 URL "imap://imap.example.org/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=30" TEXT {44+}
--------------030308070208000400050907--

S: OK Catenate completed.

Now... When I added the Content-Disposition header, did I:

a) Also inadvertantly remove all the other MIME headers
b) Duplicate the Content-Disposition header
c) Form an invalid message.
d) Cause the server to discard any Content-Disposition header (there isn't one in this example), and add any required but missing MIME headers (Content-Type: message/rfc822)

Dave.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Feb 12 11:12:21 2005
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To: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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On 2/10/05 at 1:23 PM -0800, Mark Crispin wrote:

>>>On another point, we can make CATENATE support MULTIAPPEND by wrapping the
>>>attributes with paren.  In that case, we don't need a CATENATE 
>>>command at all, just the CATENATE extension!

Ooooooo.....that's cool! So long as everyone's on board with this, I 
can make the change before the draft deadline.

So, do you want the CATENATE extension to have separate syntax for 
what happens in the presence of MULTIAPPEND, or do you want CATENATE 
to always imply MULTIAPPEND?

>Damn!  I wish that I had had this idea sooner.

Me too. :)

>Unfortunately, due to APPEND's stupid syntax, we have to modify this 
>proposal a bit to make the APPEND flag-list argument be mandatory.

I'm not clear on why the flag-list has to be mandatory or why we need 
parens around the message parts. If we just incorporate the CATENATE 
syntax we get:

append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
                   ;;; only a single append-message if MULTIAPPEND
                   ;;; capability not present

append-message  = append-simple / append-complex

append-simple   = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] SP literal

append-complex  = SP parameters 1*(SP (text-literal / url))

parameters = ("(" parameter *(SP parameter) ")") / "NIL"

parameter = ("FLAGS" SP flag-list) / ("DATE" SP date-time)

text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal

url = "URL" SP astring

(I'm no longer sure why the "parameters" above needs parens around it 
either. You can tell what's coming by seeing the NIL or FLAGS or DATE 
or TEXT or URL. But maybe that's being a little too magical.)

Let's nail this down and I'll start writing.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Feb 12 11:14:10 2005
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From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
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On 2/11/05 at 2:18 PM +0000, Dave Cridland wrote:

>Yes, that specifies purely the MIME headers. [...];section=1.2 
>specifies purely the body of the part, and not the MIME headers, but 
>according to the examples, that's enough - I don't need to include 
>the headers as well. According to that excerpt from section 3 above, 
>though, I need to provide the headers.

Yes, I think that's an error in the examples. You are required to 
specify the MIME headers if they are not in the included part. Will 
fix.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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Pete Resnick wrote:
> 
> I'm not clear on why the flag-list has to be mandatory or why we need 
> parens around the message parts. If we just incorporate the CATENATE 
> syntax we get:
> 
> append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
>                   ;;; only a single append-message if MULTIAPPEND
>                   ;;; capability not present
> 
> append-message  = append-simple / append-complex
> 
> append-simple   = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] SP literal
> 
> append-complex  = SP parameters 1*(SP (text-literal / url))
> 
> parameters = ("(" parameter *(SP parameter) ")") / "NIL"
> 
> parameter = ("FLAGS" SP flag-list) / ("DATE" SP date-time)
> 
> text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal
> 
> url = "URL" SP astring
> 
> (I'm no longer sure why the "parameters" above needs parens around it 
> either. You can tell what's coming by seeing the NIL or FLAGS or DATE or 
> TEXT or URL. But maybe that's being a little too magical.)
> 
> Let's nail this down and I'll start writing.

If we're going to make this part of APPEND, why not just use the 
existing syntax for flag-list and date-time for the CATENATE case, so we 
can reuse as much of the existing parser code as possible?  I don't see 
much point in trying to clean up any distasteful syntax for only one 
variant of a command.


append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
                   ;;; only a single append-message if MULTIAPPEND
                   ;;; capability not present

append-message  = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]
                   append-simple / append-complex

append-simple   = SP literal

append-complex  = "(" 1*(SP (text-literal / url)) ")"

text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal

url = "URL" SP astring


(I think I'd prefer putting the parens around the message parts since it 
makes detecting the end of the catenate a little easier.  Otherwise we 
have to read ahead past a SP to see if we have a text-literal/url or a 
flag-list/date-time in order to differentiate between the continuation 
of an append-complex vs. another append-message.)

-- 
Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Pete Resnick wrote:
> Ooooooo.....that's cool! So long as everyone's on board with this, I can make 
> the change before the draft deadline.

Sounds good to me.

> So, do you want the CATENATE extension to have separate syntax for what 
> happens in the presence of MULTIAPPEND, or do you want CATENATE to always 
> imply MULTIAPPEND?

I think that CATENATE should not imply MULTIAPPEND, but needs to reference 
what it does in the MULTIAPPEND case.

> I'm not clear on why the flag-list has to be mandatory or why we need parens 
> around the message parts.

The problem with proposal to wrap the FLAGS and DATE arguments with parens 
is that you get a syntax ambiguity with the simple case.  The simple case 
depends upon parens to determine whether there is a flag-list argument. 
It's still possible to distinguish it, but you have to get much deeper in 
the parse before you know whether you've taken a wrong turn.  Note that 
FLAGS and DATE can be keyword flags, so it isn't until *after* that point 
that we can determine the difference.

I agree that this is how it should have been done, but it's more than 10 
years too late to fix it now.

> (I'm no longer sure why the "parameters" above needs parens around it either. 
> You can tell what's coming by seeing the NIL or FLAGS or DATE or TEXT or URL. 
> But maybe that's being a little too magical.)

Yes, magic is the problem.  Anything that involves having to back up a 
parse past multiple tokens is a problem.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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I agree with Ken, but I worry about the syntax ambiguity between 
append-complex and flag-list in his proposal.  By making flags (don't you 
want to set \Draft??) mandatory this is avoided.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Ken Murchison wrote:
> If we're going to make this part of APPEND, why not just use the existing 
> syntax for flag-list and date-time for the CATENATE case, so we can reuse as 
> much of the existing parser code as possible?  I don't see much point in 
> trying to clean up any distasteful syntax for only one variant of a command.
>
>
> append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
>                  ;;; only a single append-message if MULTIAPPEND
>                  ;;; capability not present
>
> append-message  = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]
>                  append-simple / append-complex
>
> append-simple   = SP literal
>
> append-complex  = "(" 1*(SP (text-literal / url)) ")"
>
> text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal
>
> url = "URL" SP astring
>
>
> (I think I'd prefer putting the parens around the message parts since it 
> makes detecting the end of the catenate a little easier.  Otherwise we have 
> to read ahead past a SP to see if we have a text-literal/url or a 
> flag-list/date-time in order to differentiate between the continuation of an 
> append-complex vs. another append-message.)

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Mark Crispin wrote:

> I agree with Ken, but I worry about the syntax ambiguity between 
> append-complex and flag-list in his proposal.  By making flags (don't 
> you want to set \Draft??) mandatory this is avoided.

And specifying "()" is not a big deal.

So, yes, I agree with Ken's proposal as modified by Mark.

> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Ken Murchison wrote:
>
>> If we're going to make this part of APPEND, why not just use the 
>> existing syntax for flag-list and date-time for the CATENATE case, so 
>> we can reuse as much of the existing parser code as possible?  I 
>> don't see much point in trying to clean up any distasteful syntax for 
>> only one variant of a command.
>>
>>
>> append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
>>                  ;;; only a single append-message if MULTIAPPEND
>>                  ;;; capability not present
>>
>> append-message  = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]
>>                  append-simple / append-complex
>>
>> append-simple   = SP literal
>>
>> append-complex  = "(" 1*(SP (text-literal / url)) ")"
>>
>> text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal
>>
>> url = "URL" SP astring
>>
>>
>> (I think I'd prefer putting the parens around the message parts since 
>> it makes detecting the end of the catenate a little easier.  
>> Otherwise we have to read ahead past a SP to see if we have a 
>> text-literal/url or a flag-list/date-time in order to differentiate 
>> between the continuation of an append-complex vs. another 
>> append-message.)
>



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To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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On 2/12/05 at 11:04 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>Mark Crispin wrote:
>
>>I agree with Ken, but I worry about the syntax ambiguity between 
>>append-complex and flag-list in his proposal.  By making flags 
>>(don't you want to set \Draft??) mandatory this is avoided.
>
>And specifying "()" is not a big deal.
>
>So, yes, I agree with Ken's proposal as modified by Mark.

I think that gets us back to Mark's original proposal, doesn't it? 
Here's what I've got, neatened up a bit:

append = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
             ; only a single append-message if
             ; MULTIAPPEND capability is not present
                    
append-message = append-simple / append-catenate
                    
append-simple = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] SP literal
                    
append-catenate = SP flag-list [SP date-time] SP catenate-parts
                    
catenate-parts = "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
                    
catenate-att = text-literal / url
                    
text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal
                    
url = "URL" SP astring

That work for folks?

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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Pete Resnick wrote:
> On 2/12/05 at 11:04 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> 
>> Mark Crispin wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Ken, but I worry about the syntax ambiguity between 
>>> append-complex and flag-list in his proposal.  By making flags (don't 
>>> you want to set \Draft??) mandatory this is avoided.
>>
>>
>> And specifying "()" is not a big deal.
>>
>> So, yes, I agree with Ken's proposal as modified by Mark.
> 
> 
> I think that gets us back to Mark's original proposal, doesn't it? 
> Here's what I've got, neatened up a bit:
> 
> append = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
>             ; only a single append-message if
>             ; MULTIAPPEND capability is not present
>                    append-message = append-simple / append-catenate
>                    append-simple = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] SP literal
>                    append-catenate = SP flag-list [SP date-time] SP 
> catenate-parts
>                    catenate-parts = "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
>                    catenate-att = text-literal / url
>                    text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal
>                    url = "URL" SP astring
> 
> That work for folks?


Works for me.

-- 
Kenneth Murchison     Oceana Matrix Ltd.
Software Engineer     21 Princeton Place
716-662-8973 x26      Orchard Park, NY 14127
--PGP Public Key--    http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp

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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:52:29 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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Hi Pete,

--On February 13, 2005 1:28:34 PM -0600 Pete Resnick 
<presnick@qualcomm.com> wrote:

> I think that gets us back to Mark's original proposal, doesn't it? Here's
> what I've got, neatened up a bit:
>
> append = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
>              ; only a single append-message if
>              ; MULTIAPPEND capability is not present
>                     append-message = append-simple / append-catenate
>                     append-simple = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] SP
> literal
>                     append-catenate = SP flag-list [SP date-time] SP
> catenate-parts
>                     catenate-parts = "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att)
> ")"
>                     catenate-att = text-literal / url
>                     text-literal = "TEXT" SP literal
>                     url = "URL" SP astring

Note that ANNOTATE (in IMAPext WGLC) now has a dependency on CATENATE. If 
you change CATENATE's syntax now, that will impact ANNOTATE, however I 
think the proposed change above is worth doing, and we will have to live 
with tweaking ANNOTATE for the new CATENATE.

I think the current syntax is somewhat awkward in requiring the flags list 
for catenate. An alternative is the following:

   append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
                     ; only a single append-message if
                     ; MULTIAPPEND capability is not present
   append-message  = append-opts SP append-data
   append-opts     = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]
   append-data     = literal / append-catenate
   append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP catenate-parts
   catenate-parts  = "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
   catenate-att    = text-literal / url
   text-literal    = "TEXT" SP literal
   url             = "URL" SP astring

Note the use of an atom in place of the literal - this helps disambiguate 
the flag-list which can remain optional. The main benefit for this is that 
ANNOTATE only needs to redefine one element to 'insert' itself into APPEND:

   append-opts     = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] [SP att-annotate]

With your current syntax ANNOTATE would have to redefine both append-simple 
or append-catenate items.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Mark Crispin wrote:

>> So, do you want the CATENATE extension to have separate syntax for 
>> what happens in the presence of MULTIAPPEND, or do you want CATENATE 
>> to always imply MULTIAPPEND?
>
> I think that CATENATE should not imply MULTIAPPEND, but needs to 
> reference what it does in the MULTIAPPEND case.

I agree.



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On 2/13/05 at 3:52 PM -0500, Cyrus Daboo wrote:

>   append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox 1*append-message
>                     ; only a single append-message if
>                     ; MULTIAPPEND capability is not present
>   append-message  = append-opts SP append-data
>   append-opts     = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]
>   append-data     = literal / append-catenate
>   append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP catenate-parts
>   catenate-parts  = "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
>   catenate-att    = text-literal / url
>   text-literal    = "TEXT" SP literal
>   url             = "URL" SP astring
>
>Note the use of an atom in place of the literal - this helps 
>disambiguate the flag-list which can remain optional.

I do like this a bit better. If everyone is OK with it, I'll use 
something like this form.

>The main benefit for this is that ANNOTATE only needs to redefine 
>one element to 'insert' itself into APPEND:
>
>   append-opts     = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] [SP att-annotate]

Which you can put into your document as:

    append-opts /= [SP att-annotate]

I do like that "or-equals" operator.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Feb 13 19:24:06 2005
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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:21:15 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE WGLC - selected or all
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Hi Pete,

--On February 13, 2005 4:55:14 PM -0600 Pete Resnick 
<presnick@qualcomm.com> wrote:

> Which you can put into your document as:
>
>     append-opts /= [SP att-annotate]
>
> I do like that "or-equals" operator.
>

No - that does not work. That would give:

    append-opts     = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] / [SP att-annotate]

That is wrong as att-annotate is not an alternative but an addition. This 
is a problem with the 3501 definition - it uses positional arguments there. 
What we need is a new 'incremental concatenation' operator which ABNF 
lacks. Something like:

    append-opts     += [SP att-annotate]

The other thing that ABNF lacks is an unordered list option - that is 
something that would be very useful for iCalendar syntax.

What we might want to do here, if we are anticipating any possible 
additional APPEND extensions, is to clean up the base syntax. Here is one 
solution:

    ;New 3501bis syntax
    append          = "APPEND" SP mailbox append-message
    append-message  = append-opts SP append-data
    append-opts     = [SP flag-list] [SP date-time] *(SP append-ext)
    append-ext      = ; is arbitrary bounded syntax to be defined
                      ; by extensions. This MUST start with an
                      ; an atom.
    append-data     = literal

Then MULTIAPPEND can just do the following:

    append-message  +=  *append-message
                        ; allows multi-message append

Then CATENATE can do:

    append-data     /= append-catenate
    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP catenate-parts
    catenate-parts  = "(" catenate-att *(SP catenate-att) ")"
    catenate-att    = text-literal / url
    text-literal    = "TEXT" SP literal
    url             = "URL" SP astring

Then ANNOTATE can just do:

    append-ext     /= att-annotate


With this, none of the extensions MULTIAPPEND, CATENATE or ANNOTATE need 
reference any of the others as the new syntax allows for each to extend the 
base in a compatible way. Each extension will work in the presence of any 
of the others.

The only awkward bit is the open-ended definition of append-ext...

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 07:50:04 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] CATENATE + URLAUTH
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In my original message, I mentioned that URLAUTH seems fine WRT BURL and CATENATE, but later I realised that there's no interaction between the two mentioned.

It occurs to me that CATENATE, as it stands, is useful primarily for draft manipulation.

With the addition that one could specify a URLAUTH authorized URL as the argument to a CATENATE URL chunk, it becomes useful for as a replacement for COPY between servers.

Obviously this would be most useful when used with an IMAP cluster using MAILBOX-REFERRALS.

Dave.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 10:09:05 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] New draft: SEARCH return options
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Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>
>
>	Title		: IMAP4 extension to SEARCH command for controlling what 
>			  kind of information is returned
>	Author(s)	: A. Melnikov, D. Cridland
>	Filename	: draft-melnikov-imap-search-ret-00.txt
>	Pages		: 0
>	Date		: 2005-2-11
>	
>This document extends SEARCH and UID SEARCH commands with result
>   specifier, which can control what kind of information is returned.
>   Several result specifiers are defined: minimal value, maximal
>   value, all found messages and number of found messages. A new
>   response ESEARCH is also specified.
>
>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-melnikov-imap-search-ret-00.txt
>
Based on the recent discussion of the 
draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00.txt, Dave and I wrote a draft that adds 
return options to the SEARCH command. Currently defined return options 
are: COUNT (number of found messages), MIN (the lowest message 
number/UID found), MAX (the highest message number/UID found) and ALL 
(return all found messages as a message/UID set).

Dave has implemented the extension in his Polymer email client.

I am also proud to announce the support for this extension in Isode IMAP 
server.

Alexey

P.S. If you are interested to test this extension against Isode server, please contact me directly.

 __________________________________________
IETF standard related pages:
http://www.melnikov.ca/mel/devel/Links.html
__________________________________________
 


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Dave Cridland wrote:

> On Fri Feb 11 13:17:53 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>> Dave Cridland wrote:
>>
>>> 5) It's unclear to me whether the server is strictly required to 
>>> place suitable MIME headers based on a URL or not - the examples 
>>> imply that this is so, but the text appears to specifically state 
>>> this is not so:
>>
I think I finally understood the issue you are talking about.

>>> Section 3, "[...] as if the literal returned in a FETCH BODY 
>>> response were put in place of the message part specifier.", which 
>>> appears to suggest, to me, that it's the BODY[x.y], not the 
>>> BODY[x.y.MIME] as well.
>>
>> IMAP URL allows you to do either:
>> <imap://foo@example.org/gray-council/;uid=20/;section=1.2.MIME>
>
> Yes, that specifies purely the MIME headers. [...];section=1.2 
> specifies purely the body of the part, and not the MIME headers, but 
> according to the examples, that's enough - I don't need to include the 
> headers as well. According to that excerpt from section 3 above, 
> though, I need to provide the headers.

This is a bug in examples.

> I'd like to assume that CATENATE is clever enough that if I specify a 
> part only, with no headers, it would use the headers from that part.

No, the client should provide all MIME headers. But the server should 
verify correctness of the constructed message.

> But then, if I want to change the headers, then what, exactly, do I send?
>
> To borrow the first example from Appendix A:
>
> C: D001 CATENATE Drafts FLAGS (\Seen \Draft $MDNSent) URL 
> "imap://imap.example.org/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=20;section=HEADER" 
> TEXT {40+}
> --------------030308070208000400050907
> URL 
> "imap://imap.example.org/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=20;section=1.1" 
> TEXT {N+}
> --------------030308070208000400050907
> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=stuff.txt
> URL "imap://imap.example.org/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=30" 
> TEXT {44+}
> --------------030308070208000400050907--
>
> S: OK Catenate completed.
>
> Now... When I added the Content-Disposition header, did I:
>
> a) Also inadvertantly remove all the other MIME headers
> b) Duplicate the Content-Disposition header
> c) Form an invalid message.
> d) Cause the server to discard any Content-Disposition header (there 
> isn't one in this example), and add any required but missing MIME 
> headers (Content-Type: message/rfc822)

You did a)+c), because an extra CRLF (header/body separator) is required 
after the inserted "Content-Disposition" header.


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 13:25:04 2005
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To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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I've reviewed this document and while I have document nits the protocol 
proposed looks OK to me.

Is there much feeling as to how useful it would be?  I'm not talking about 
Dave and Alexey since I'm sure they are already convinced.  It's more of a 
question of whether the benefit is worth the added complexity (don't 
forget, it does represent an additional task for server implementors!).

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 15:11:56 2005
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>,
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Subject: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Alexey,

--On February 14, 2005 2:56:25 PM +0000 Alexey Melnikov 
<Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com> wrote:

> Based on the recent discussion of the
> draft-melnikov-imap-expunged-00.txt, Dave and I wrote a draft that adds
> return options to the SEARCH command. Currently defined return options
> are: COUNT (number of found messages), MIN (the lowest message number/UID
> found), MAX (the highest message number/UID found) and ALL (return all
> found messages as a message/UID set).
>
> Dave has implemented the extension in his Polymer email client.
>
> I am also proud to announce the support for this extension in Isode IMAP
> server.
>
> Alexey
>
> P.S. If you are interested to test this extension against Isode server,
> please contact me directly.

One thing you might want to consider adding to this is a 'ID' return option 
that takes an atom as an argument. The server would be required to return 
that ID and atom in the ESEARCH response for the corresponding command. 
This will solve the problem of multiple pipelined search commands and 
figuring out which search response corresponds to which command.

e.g.

C: a SEARCH RETURN (ID 1 ALL) UNSEEN
C: b SEARCH RETURN (ID 2 ALL) DELETED
S: * ESEARCH ID 1 ALL 1:100
S: * ESEARCH ID 1 ALL 200:1000
S: * ESEARCH ID 2 ALL 150
S: a OK
S: b OK

The IDs make it clear which response corresponds to each search.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 15:18:23 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Alexey,
I think you need to have some mention of how this interacts with 
draft-melnikov-imap-search-res-01.txt. Or that document should mention how 
it interacts with draft-melnikov-imap-search-ret-00.txt. One issue is:

a SEARCH RETURN (COUNT) UNSEEN

Strictly speaking the above command does not generate a message sequence 
set, so is the last search result $ item set or not?

There is also an interesting possibility of tying the two together via the 
ID return option I proposed. For example:

C: a SEARCH RETURN (ID 1 ALL) UNSEEN
C: a SEARCH RETURN (ID 2 ALL) DELETED
...

C: FETCH $[1] (UID INTERNALDATE FLAGS RFC822.HEADER)

C: FETCH $[2] (UID INTERNALDATE FLAGS RFC822.HEADER)

The fetch commands act on the result of the different searches, referenced 
by the ID option value. This means that a client could use multiple search 
result sets simultaneously, as opposed to in series, as they would have to 
right now.

This could prove very powerful for clients that want to present multiple 
simultaneous 'views' on the same mailbox.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 15:32:10 2005
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:19:16 +0100
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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	<38D656F5ADDFAAA6E7F08E16@ninevah.cyrusoft.com>
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Cyrus Daboo writes:
> The IDs make it clear which response corresponds to each search.

IMAP already has a mechanism to handle that: tagged responses.

Arnt

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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:30:57 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, lemonade@ietf.org,
        ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Arnt,

--On February 14, 2005 9:19:16 PM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
<arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:

>> The IDs make it clear which response corresponds to each search.
>
> IMAP already has a mechanism to handle that: tagged responses.
>

Search results are always untagged.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Cyrus Daboo wrote:
>>> The IDs make it clear which response corresponds to each search.
>> IMAP already has a mechanism to handle that: tagged responses.
> Search results are always untagged.

Yes, but instead of an ESEARCH untagged response this could be a status 
response in the tagged OK.  I think that this is the way to go.

-- Mark --

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Mark,

--On February 14, 2005 12:43:34 PM -0800 Mark Crispin 
<MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:

>>>> The IDs make it clear which response corresponds to each search.
>>> IMAP already has a mechanism to handle that: tagged responses.
>> Search results are always untagged.
>
> Yes, but instead of an ESEARCH untagged response this could be a status
> response in the tagged OK.  I think that this is the way to go.
>

Can you explain with some examples...

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 15:56:42 2005
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Can you explain with some examples...

tag SEARCH extended-poop
tag OK [SEARCH extended-poop-response] extended SEARCH OK

as opposed to

tag SEARCH extended-poop
* ESEARCH extended-poop-response
tag OK SEARCH completed

Note that this precludes any sort of "watching" SEARCH extension, in which 
you have a standing SEARCH and get unsolicited responses.  It has been 
nearly 20 years and we have done no such thing, so maybe we don't care.

-- Mark --

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 16:05:28 2005
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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Cyrus Daboo writes:
> Hi Arnt,
>
> --On February 14, 2005 9:19:16 PM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
> <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>>> The IDs make it clear which response corresponds to each search.
>>
>> IMAP already has a mechanism to handle that: tagged responses.
>
> Search results are always untagged.

Why?

If you want ESEARCH to be bound to the command, you can either use the 
IMAP tag mechanism or reinvent it.

Arnt

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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:04:10 -0500
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Hi Mark,

--On February 14, 2005 12:51:02 PM -0800 Mark Crispin 
<MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:

> tag SEARCH extended-poop
> tag OK [SEARCH extended-poop-response] extended SEARCH OK
>
> as opposed to
>
> tag SEARCH extended-poop
> * ESEARCH extended-poop-response
> tag OK SEARCH completed
>
> Note that this precludes any sort of "watching" SEARCH extension, in
> which you have a standing SEARCH and get unsolicited responses.  It has
> been nearly 20 years and we have done no such thing, so maybe we don't
> care.
>

I guess I dislike the idea of having actual results come back in the 
extended response code.

Right now I don't see why we need the new ESEARCH response at all, as 
opposed to just redefining the SEARCH response (which is fine because the 
client knows what it is going to get having used the extended SEARCH 
command). Perhaps Alexey can explain why we have to have a new response?

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:07:05 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, lemonade@ietf.org,
        ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Arnt,

--On February 14, 2005 9:58:42 PM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
<arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:

>> Search results are always untagged.
>
> Why?
>
> If you want ESEARCH to be bound to the command, you can either use the
> IMAP tag mechanism or reinvent it.
>

OK, so are you suggesting that the tag for the SEARCH command is used as 
the 'ID' I was proposing, e.g.:

a1234 SEARCH RETURN (TAG ALL) UNSEEN
* ESEARCH TAG a1234 ALL 1:100
a1234 OK

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:19:10 -0600
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> If you want ESEARCH to be bound to the command, you can=20
> either use the=20
> IMAP tag mechanism or reinvent it.
>=20

Maybe not reinvent, but rather exploit.

To reuse Cyrus's example ...

C: a SEARCH RETURN (ALL) UNSEEN
C: b SEARCH RETURN (ALL) DELETED
S: * ESEARCH TAG a ALL 1:100,200:1000
S: * ESEARCH TAG b ALL 150
S: a OK
S: b OK

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 16:30:17 2005
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:22:58 +0100
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Cyrus Daboo writes:
> OK, so are you suggesting that the tag for the SEARCH command is used 
> as the 'ID' I was proposing, e.g.:
>
> a1234 SEARCH RETURN (TAG ALL) UNSEEN
> * ESEARCH TAG a1234 ALL 1:100
> a1234 OK

I'm suggesting that IF you want to tag ESEARCH responses (whether you 
call them "tagged searches" or "searches with ID" is no matter to me), 
then the most honest response format is

a1234 ESEARCH ALL 1:100

There are alternatives, such as sneaking the tag in the back door:

* ESEARCH TAG a1234 ALL 1:100

Or such as using an Elvis lookalike instead of the real thing:

* ESEARCH ID a1234 ALL 1:100

Whether ESEARCH is tagged or not is no matter to me. I'm happy either way.

But if it is tagged, I'd like to see IMAP stay with just one tag 
mechanism (unless there are pressing reasons for having multiple 
similar mechanisms, of course).

Arnt

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To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, lemonade@ietf.org,
        ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Arnt,

--On February 14, 2005 10:22:58 PM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
<arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:

> I'm suggesting that IF you want to tag ESEARCH responses (whether you
> call them "tagged searches" or "searches with ID" is no matter to me),
> then the most honest response format is
>
> a1234 ESEARCH ALL 1:100

As far as I recall the IMAP base-spec only allows one tagged response to 
any command, so the above would not work without redefining IMAP's entire 
response behaviour...

> There are alternatives, such as sneaking the tag in the back door:
>
> * ESEARCH TAG a1234 ALL 1:100
>
> Or such as using an Elvis lookalike instead of the real thing:
>
> * ESEARCH ID a1234 ALL 1:100
>
> Whether ESEARCH is tagged or not is no matter to me. I'm happy either way.
>
> But if it is tagged, I'd like to see IMAP stay with just one tag
> mechanism (unless there are pressing reasons for having multiple similar
> mechanisms, of course).

Ok - command tags would be sufficient.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Cyrus Daboo writes:
> As far as I recall the IMAP base-spec only allows one tagged response 
> to any command, so the above would not work without redefining IMAP's 
> entire response behaviour...

That's an excellent argument, but where in the RFC does it say so?

Arnt

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 14 16:48:10 2005
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:37:18 -0500
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, lemonade@ietf.org,
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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Hi Arnt,

--On February 14, 2005 10:33:49 PM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
<arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:

>> As far as I recall the IMAP base-spec only allows one tagged response
>> to any command, so the above would not work without redefining IMAP's
>> entire response behaviour...
>
> That's an excellent argument, but where in the RFC does it say so?
>

The formal syntax for the 'response' element. If you follow that through 
you will see that you can only have one 'response-tagged' item in 
'response'.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:12:22 -0600
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> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> > Can you explain with some examples...
>=20
> tag SEARCH extended-poop
> tag OK [SEARCH extended-poop-response] extended SEARCH OK
>=20
> as opposed to
>=20
> tag SEARCH extended-poop
> * ESEARCH extended-poop-response
> tag OK SEARCH completed

Would there be any other reason then the pipelining id problem=20
to do it this way?

Mike

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:45:51 -0600
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> then the most honest response format is
>=20
> a1234 ESEARCH ALL 1:100

I disagree.=20

The notion of having multiple responses with tag affinity=20
is perfectly valid in my mind. Given that, a logical progression=20
from what you are proposing is ...

1 SEARCH ...
1 ESEARCH ...
1 SOME FUTURE RESPONSE ....
1 OK ...

In my mind this is a much more ungainly solution then to just reuse
the already existing notion of untagged solicited responses. Just
add tag affinity with a data item in the response is much simpler
and elegant.

Mike


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Cyrus Daboo writes:
> The formal syntax for the 'response' element. If you follow that 
> through you will see that you can only have one 'response-tagged' 
> item in 'response'.

Right. And I found another bit near the bottom of page 62.

I have no opinion, then. All the alternatives are fine with me.

Arnt

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 15 05:36:21 2005
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Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:34:05 +0000
From: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: [lemonade] More comments about URLAUTH draft
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After doing a prototype URLAUTH implementation in Isode IMAP server, I 
suggest the following changes (additions) to the URLAUTH document:

>BASE.6.3.GENURLAUTH.  GENURLAUTH Command
>
>    Argument:   one or more URL/mechanism pairs
>
>    Response:   untagged response: GENURLAUTH
>
>    Result:     OK - GENURLAUTH completed
>                NO - GENURLAUTH error: can't generate a URLAUTH
>                BAD - command unknown or arguments invalid
>
>    The GENURLAUTH command requests the server to generate a URLAUTH
>    authorized URL for each of the given URLs using the given URL
>    authorization mechanism.

Add: Each provided URL MUST contain a valid username and a the URLAUTH
component with a valid access identifier. If either of them is missing
or invalid, the server MUST return BAD.

The server MUST verify that the mailbox component of the URL refers to
an existing mailbox, it SHOULD also verify that the specified message id
and section (if present) are valid.

The URL username is used to determine the owner of a mailbox access key
table to be used to generate the URLAUTH authorized URL.

>    If there is currently no mailbox access key for the given mailbox
>    in the user's mailbox access key table, one is automatically

as the term "user" is overloaded, I suggest to replace it with "owner" here.
>    generated.  That is, it is not necessary to use RESETKEY prior to
>    first-time use of GENURLAUTH.
>
>    If the command is successful, a GENURLAUTH response code is returned
>    listing the requested URLs as URLAUTH authorized URLs.
>
>    Example:
>
>       C: a777 GENURLAUTH 
"imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
>          ;urlauth=submit+fred" INTERNAL
>       S: * GENURLAUTH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
>          ;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038"
>       S: a777 OK GENURLAUTH completed

Add:

    Example:

       C: a778 GENURLAUTH
"imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2"
          INTERNAL
       S: a778 BAD access identifier is missing the from the URL to be
signed

       C: a779 GENURLAUTH "imap://example.com/Shared/;uid=20/;section=1.2
          ;urlauth=submit+fred" INTERNAL
       S: a779 BAD username is missing from the provided URL

Some additional wordsmithing might be required.

Alexey


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Lemonade Profile
	Author(s)	: S. Maes, A. Melnikov
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-01.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2005-2-14
	
This document describes the Lemonade profile to allow clients to 
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   The Lemonade profile relies upon extensions to other protocols; 
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   In addition, the Lemonade profile contains Lemonade Command 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Lemonade Profile
	Author(s)	: S. Maes, A. Melnikov
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-01.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2005-2-14
	
This document describes the Lemonade profile to allow clients to 
   submit new email messages incorporating content which resides on 
   locations external to the client ("forward without download").  
    
   The Lemonade profile relies upon extensions to other protocols; 
   specifically URLAUTH, CATENATE, Lemonade Command Extensions in the 
   IMAP protocol [RFC 3501] and BURL in the SUBMIT protocol [RFC 2476]. 
 
   In addition, the Lemonade profile contains Lemonade Command 
   extensions for quick reconnect and media conversion.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-01.txt

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To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
From: Philip Guenther <guenther+lemonade@sendmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] More comments about URLAUTH draft 
In-reply-to: <4211275D.2010009@isode.com> 
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Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com> writes:
...
>Add: Each provided URL MUST contain a valid username and a the URLAUTH
>component with a valid access identifier. If either of them is missing
>or invalid, the server MUST return BAD.

So URLAUTH can be used to test usernames for validity?  I would think
that would be a MUST NOT!


>The server MUST verify that the mailbox component of the URL refers to
>an existing mailbox, it SHOULD also verify that the specified message id
>and section (if present) are valid.

When I asked about a similar requirement during the original last call
in November, the author's response was:
>Not necessary for security, and creates a mandate that may be costly
>for some servers.

Since it doesn't fix any race conditions or prevent any attacks, I don't
think it should be required, though servers should be permitted to
reject the command.


>The URL username is used to determine the owner of a mailbox access key
>table to be used to generate the URLAUTH authorized URL.
>
>>    If there is currently no mailbox access key for the given mailbox
>>    in the user's mailbox access key table, one is automatically
>
>as the term "user" is overloaded, I suggest to replace it with "owner" here.

Uh, no, the 'user' in that sentence is the user that invoked GENURLAUTH,
_not_ the user from the partial URL.


Philip Guenther

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 15 16:27:47 2005
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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Philip Guenther <guenther+lemonade@sendmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] More comments about URLAUTH draft 
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Philip Guenther wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com> writes:
>> Add: Each provided URL MUST contain a valid username and a the URLAUTH
>> component with a valid access identifier. If either of them is missing
>> or invalid, the server MUST return BAD.
> So URLAUTH can be used to test usernames for validity?  I would think
> that would be a MUST NOT!

I think that, in the 99.999% case, the username that appears in
 	imap://username@server
must be the same as the authorization identity of the session that issued 
the GENURLAUTH.  I guess that it could also match the authentication 
identity.

Otherwise, I don't see how fred could issue a
 	imap://sally@server
URL authorizaed via URLAUTH.

>> The server MUST verify that the mailbox component of the URL refers to
>> an existing mailbox, it SHOULD also verify that the specified message id
>> and section (if present) are valid.
> Since it doesn't fix any race conditions or prevent any attacks, I don't
> think it should be required, though servers should be permitted to
> reject the command.

I tend to agree.

>> The URL username is used to determine the owner of a mailbox access key
>> table to be used to generate the URLAUTH authorized URL.
>>>    If there is currently no mailbox access key for the given mailbox
>>>    in the user's mailbox access key table, one is automatically
>> as the term "user" is overloaded, I suggest to replace it with "owner" here.
> Uh, no, the 'user' in that sentence is the user that invoked GENURLAUTH,
> _not_ the user from the partial URL.

However, both should be the same, right?

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From lepypjliz@nic.fi  Wed Feb 16 02:53:22 2005
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Minnesota, which can clinch a wild-card 
playoff spot with a loss by either Carolina or St. Louis this weekend, appeared on 
its way to retaking the lead. But a holding penalty on Birk -- the Vikings were 
flagged nine times for 78 yards -- wiped out a 16-yard run by Michael Bennett that 
would have given them the ball at the Green Bay 40 just before the 2-minute warning.

--Java.YOGJO.33462519641308334
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1=
">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A href=3D"http://lenore.free-kazaa-spywa=
re.info"><IMG alt=3D"" 
hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:142950c4d3c0$2180fea0$961aa4c0@XXGGIXQ" align=3Dbase=
line 
border=3D0></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://bowie.free-kazaa-spyware.info/discon">Cease</A></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Minnesota, which can clin=
ch a wild-card 
playoff spot with a loss by either Carolina or St. Louis this weekend, app=
eared on 
its way to retaking the lead. But a holding penalty on Birk -- the Vikings=
 were 
flagged nine times for 78 yards -- wiped out a 16-yard run by Michael Benn=
ett that 
would have given them the ball at the Green Bay 40 just before the 2-minut=
e warning.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>The Vikings (8-7), though=
, couldn't 
get what they needed from a pass defense that has struggled all season.</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Government spokesman Raan=
an Gissin 
said four soldiers were killed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Six people were taken to =
hospital -- 
four badly hurt, one with moderate injuries and one lightly injured, milit=
ary 
sources said.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>The sources said another =
soldier 
remained beneath the rubble.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Gissin said rescue operat=
ions were 
continuing Sunday night.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>The attack "indicates tha=
t unless 
there is decisive and sustained effort taken to dismantle the terrorist 
organization, it will be impossible to move towards normalizations and tow=
ards 
political negotiations," Gissin told a news crew. "And I think the 
responsibility on that lies with the Palestinian Authority."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Shortly after the first b=
last, a 
second explosion was heard in southern Gaza, but its precise location was =
not 
immediately known.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Hamas, in a phone call to=
 CNN, said 
it had set off the first explosion near Rafah in cooperation with a group =
called 
the Fatah Hawks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>There was no immediate in=
formation 
available on that group, although it was believed to be linked to the Fata=
h 
movement formerly led by the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Israeli military sources =
said it was 
a coordinated attack, with Palestinians firing mortar shells and guns at t=
he 
post when the explosives were detonated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>It was not clear whether =
there were 
Palestinian casualties.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>News video of the afterma=
th showed 
soldiers using stretchers to transport troops who appeared to be severely =

wounded.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>In a pamphlet distributed=
 after the 
attack, Hamas said it had used 1.5 tons of explosives and had recorded vid=
eo of 
the incident.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Palestinians have used tu=
nnels in the 
area to smuggle weapons from Egypt. Israel has carried out operations to c=
rack 
down on the smuggling.<BR>Shell explosion in schoolyard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>An Israeli tank shell exp=
loded in a 
Gaza schoolyard Sunday morning, wounding eight Palestinian schoolchildren,=
 
Palestinian medical and security sources said.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>The children between the =
ages of 6 
and 12 -- sustained moderate to light injuries, the sources said.</FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>The violence happened in =
Khan Yunis 
in central Gaza</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>Israeli military sources =
said that 
forces in the area identified what they thought was a number of mortar she=
lls 
being fired towards Israeli settlements nearby.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#eaeaea></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#eaeaea size=3D2>In response, the forces f=
ired towards 
the positions with light weapons, but did not fire a tank shell, the milit=
ary 
sources said.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 16 07:47:26 2005
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Philip Guenther wrote:

>Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com> writes:
>...
>  
>>Add: Each provided URL MUST contain a valid username and a the URLAUTH
>>component with a valid access identifier. If either of them is missing
>>or invalid, the server MUST return BAD.
>>    
>So URLAUTH can be used to test usernames for validity?  I would think
>that would be a MUST NOT!
>  
>
The username is both the context for the mailbox, as well as the
selector of the owner of the mailbox access key (see below). Whether you
like it or not, but the server has to do username verification internally.

In order address the problem that you've mentioned a server can choose a
random mailbox key that would always fail to verify. But this has to be 
spelled out in the document.

>>The server MUST verify that the mailbox component of the URL refers to
>>an existing mailbox, it SHOULD also verify that the specified message id
>>and section (if present) are valid.
>>    
>>
>
>When I asked about a similar requirement during the original last call
>in November, the author's response was:
>  
>
>>Not necessary for security, and creates a mandate that may be costly
>>for some servers.
>>    
>>
>
>Since it doesn't fix any race conditions or prevent any attacks, I don't
>think it should be required, though servers should be permitted to
>reject the command.

Ok, the SHOULD can be dropped, but the MUST is required, because a
mailbox access key is a property of a mailbox.

>>The URL username is used to determine the owner of a mailbox access key
>>table to be used to generate the URLAUTH authorized URL.
>>    
>>
>>>   If there is currently no mailbox access key for the given mailbox
>>>   in the user's mailbox access key table, one is automatically
>>>      
>>>
>>as the term "user" is overloaded, I suggest to replace it with "owner" here.
>>    
>>
>
>Uh, no, the 'user' in that sentence is the user that invoked GENURLAUTH,
>_not_ the user from the partial URL.
>  
>
That is what I thought at first, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
User's mailbox access key is used for signing. So, the user must be
derivable from an URLAUTH URL. An access identifier is not necessarily a
user, it can be a group/role ("submit" or "anonymous"). Which leaves us
with the URL's username part.

Alexey


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 16 14:46:48 2005
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I am wondering why you are not tempted to generalize the options a bit 
more.  I am thinking along the lines of:

	DIRECTION UP or DOWN (meaning search up/down with respect to message 
numbers/UIDs)

	MATCHES n (meaning return a maximum of n matches)

This would allow a client that wanted to find at most a fixed number of 
matches to fill a window, form or Web page to do so more efficiently.  For 
example,

	<tag> SEARCH RETURN (DIRECTION DOWN MATCHES 20) <criteria>

These could even be combined by having MATCHES +n and MATCHES -n.

Then MIN would be replaced by (DIRECTION UP MATCHES 1) and so on.

Pete Maclean


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Subject: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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Pete Maclean wrote:

> I am wondering why you are not tempted to generalize the options a bit 
> more.  I am thinking along the lines of:
>
>     DIRECTION UP or DOWN (meaning search up/down with respect to 
> message numbers/UIDs)

Isn't this part of the SORT extension? IMHO, the search order is an 
internal server business. Some servers can optimize if the client 
specified something like "RETURN (MIN)".

>     MATCHES n (meaning return a maximum of n matches)

Yes, we've just discussed this with Dave :-).

> This would allow a client that wanted to find at most a fixed number 
> of matches to fill a window, form or Web page to do so more 
> efficiently.  For example,
>
>     <tag> SEARCH RETURN (DIRECTION DOWN MATCHES 20) <criteria>
>
> These could even be combined by having MATCHES +n and MATCHES -n.
>
> Then MIN would be replaced by (DIRECTION UP MATCHES 1) and so on.




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Subject: [lemonade] Re: New draft: SEARCH return options
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At 12:04 PM 2/16/2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>Pete Maclean wrote:
>
>>I am wondering why you are not tempted to generalize the options a bit 
>>more.  I am thinking along the lines of:
>>
>>     DIRECTION UP or DOWN (meaning search up/down with respect to message 
>> numbers/UIDs)
>
>Isn't this part of the SORT extension?

Ah well, it may be so.  I must acknowledge that I have not acquainted 
myself with that extension.  But perhaps if a server chooses to implement 
the ESEARCH extension and not the SORT extension then it is relevant.

>  IMHO, the search order is an internal server business. Some servers can 
> optimize if the client specified something like "RETURN (MIN)".

I totally agree that the search order should be an internal server business 
by default.  However, for the type of situation I described, it does seem 
valuable for the client to be able override that.  Incidentally, I do not 
mean that to imply that the results should necessarily be returned in the 
specified order.  Furthermore, by "order", I guess I mean "effective order" 
such that the results returned would be the first N matches in the 
specified ordering.  Whether or not the server internally actually searches 
messages in that order is irrelevant.


>>     MATCHES n (meaning return a maximum of n matches)
>
>Yes, we've just discussed this with Dave :-).

Good show!

Pete 


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 16 18:17:18 2005
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I've done a re-write using the APPEND command. It's submitted to the 
I-D editor. In the meanwhile, you can find the draft here:

<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-04.txt>
<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-04.html>
<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-04.xml>

We've still got time to get one more draft in over the weekend. 
Please have a look and let me know. Alexey especially wanted someone 
to scour the examples. Either way, I think this should delay the 
completion of the WGLC.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 16 22:10:00 2005
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On 2/16/05 at 5:00 PM -0600, Pete Resnick wrote:

>I've done a re-write using the APPEND command.

Already, Mark has made some suggestions privately, and I've changed 
my editing copy:

1. s/modifies/extends in the Abstract and Introduction.
2. Insert the leading CRLF of the MIME boundaries in the Examples.
3. Beef up the second to last paragraph of section 3 to read:

The client is responsible for making sure that the catenated message 
is in the format of an RFC 2822 message. In particular, when a URL is 
catenated, the server copies octets, unchanged, from the indicated 
message or message part to the catenated message. It does no data 
conversion (e.g. MIME transfer encodings); nor any verification that 
the data is appropriate for the MIME part of the message into which 
it is inserted. The client is also responsible for inserting 
appropriate MIME boundaries between body parts, and writing MIME 
Content-Type and Content-Transfer-Encoding lines as needed in the 
appropriate places.

Please, make comments before the weekend just in case I want to float 
another draft before the deadline.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) CATENATE Extension
	Author(s)	: P. Resnick
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-04.txt
	Pages		: 11
	Date		: 2005-2-17
	
The CATENATE extension to the Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
allows clients to create messages on the IMAP server which may
contain a combination of new data along with parts of (or entire)
messages already on the server. Using this extension, the client can
catenate parts of an already existing message on to a new message
without having to first download the data and then upload it back to
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The only time you run out of chances is when you stop taking them. When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. I heard someone tried the monkeys-on-typewriters bit trying for the plays of W. Shakespeare, but all they got was the collected works of Francis Bacon. The Eskimo has fifty-two names for snow because it is important to them; there ought to be as many for love. If you find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere. Love is the immortal flow of energy that nourishes, extends and preserves. Its eternal goal is life. Iron rusts from disuse; stagnant water loses its purity and in cold weather becomes frozen; even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind. Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. The man who says I told you so is making an excuse for not expressing his position clearly in the first place. The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad. A narcissist is someone better looking than you are. Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. Give me chastity and continence, but not yet. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. His ignorance is encyclopedic Logic is in the eye of the logician.Love takes off masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her. Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users? All love shifts and changes. I don't know if you can be wholeheartedly in love all the time. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. Books are the shoes with which we tread the footsteps of great minds. In the end, everything is a gag. He is one
 of those people who would be enormously improved by death. The Babylon project was our last, best hope for peace. .. It failed. .. But in the year of the Shadow war it became something greater: our last, best hope .. for victory. The year is 2260, the place: Babylon 5.I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it. When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asleep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So, let's all get drunk and go to heaven! A doctor can bury his mistakes but an architect can only advise his clients to plant vines. The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. In the end, everything is a gag. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. We have art to save ourselves from the truth. A clever man commits no minor blunders. A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. I begin by taking. I shall find scholars later to demonstrate my perfect right. It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. We have art to save ourselves from the truth. I can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write faster than anybody who can write better. Who would give a law to lovers? Love is unto itself a higher law. Sleep is an excellent way of listening to an opera. The man who says I told you so is mak
ing an excuse for not expressing his position clearly in the first place. It's kind of fun to do the impossible. Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. The best proof of love is trust. No elected body is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay that way as long as we care to keep it so. Treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but because you are. Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living in eternity. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand and melting like a snowflake. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. When a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there is anything you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. God, please save me from your followers! If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome. Solitude, if rightly used, becomes not only a privilege but a necessity. Only a superficial soul fears to fraternize with itself. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. The problem with some people is that when they aren't drunk, they're sober. C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself. Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. Dancing is silent poetry. Basically, I no longer work for anything but the sensation I have while working. I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to inte
rpret it as though it had an underlying truth. If you find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it. All right, Brain, I don't like you and you don't like me -- so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer. In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience. In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation. Distance between two hearts is not an obstacle; rather a great reminder of just how strong true love can be. Iron rusts from disuse; stagnant water loses its purity and in cold weather becomes frozen; even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind. No elected body is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can only stay that way as long as we care to keep it so. A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a shp, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Be nice to people on your way up because you meet them on your way down. Three o'clock is always too late or too early for anything you want to do. Very little is needed to make a happy life. It is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. A woman knows the face of the man she loves as a sailor knows the open sea. A friendship founded on business is better than a business founded on friendship. 

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<FONT face=3DArial>The only time you run out of chances is when you stop t=
aking them. When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. I =
heard someone tried the monkeys-on-typewriters bit trying for the plays of=
 W. Shakespeare, but all they got was the collected works of Francis Bacon=
 The Eskimo has fifty-two names for snow because it is important to them;=
 there ought to be as many for love. If you find a path with no obstacles,=
 it probably doesn't lead anywhere. Love is the immortal flow of energy th=
at nourishes, extends and preserves. Its eternal goal is life. Iron rusts =
from disuse; stagnant water loses its purity and in cold weather becomes f=
rozen; even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind. Good people do not=
 need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a w=
ay around the laws. The man who says I told you so is making an excuse for=
 not expressing his position clearly in the first place. The only differen=
ce between me and a madman is that I'm not mad. A narcissist is someone be=
tter looking than you are. Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. T=
hat will teach you to keep your mouth shut. Give me chastity and continenc=
e, but not yet. Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydro=
gen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital =
ingredient in beer. His ignorance is encyclopedic Logic is in the eye of t=
he logician.Love takes off masks that we fear we cannot live without and k=
now we cannot live within. A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even hav=
e the decency to thank her. Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say,=
 abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. Why is it drug addicts a=
nd computer afficionados are both called users? All love shifts and change=
s. I don't know if you can be wholeheartedly in love all the time. An inco=
nvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inco=
nvenience rightly considered. Books are the shoes with which we tread the =
footsteps of great minds. In the end, everything is a gag. He is one of th=
ose people who would be enormously improved by death. The Babylon project =
was our last, best hope for peace. .. It failed. .. But in the year of the=
 Shadow war it became something greater: our last, best hope .. for victor=
y. The year is 2260, the place: Babylon 5.I've had a wonderful time, but t=
his wasn't it. When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asl=
eep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go t=
o heaven. So, let's all get drunk and go to heaven! A doctor can bury his =
mistakes but an architect can only advise his clients to plant vines. The =
difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham =
breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'. An inconv=
enience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconv=
enience rightly considered. In the end, everything is a gag. When I read a=
bout the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. An inconvenience is only an=
 adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly co=
nsidered. You can widen your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a=
 friend. Each encounter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. O=
ne can never have too many, only too many to properly take care of. We hav=
e art to save ourselves from the truth. A clever man commits no minor blun=
ders. A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses =
both. I begin by taking. I shall find scholars later to demonstrate my per=
fect right. It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exce=
eded our humanity. Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation o=
f denying himself a pleasure. If everything seems under control, you're ju=
st not going fast enough. We have art to save ourselves from the truth. I =
can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write faster=
 than anybody who can write better. Who would give a law to lovers? Love i=
s unto itself a higher law. Sleep is an excellent way of listening to an o=
pera. The man who says I told you so is making an excuse for not expressin=
g his position clearly in the first place. It's kind of fun to do the impo=
ssible. Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that=
 counts can be counted.In the End, we will remember not the words of our e=
nemies, but the silence of our friends. The best proof of love is trust. N=
o elected body is the country, we are the country. You and me. Us. It can =
only stay that way as long as we care to keep it so. Treat everyone with p=
oliteness, even those who are rude to you. Not because they are nice, but =
because you are. Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living in=
 eternity. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand and=
 melting like a snowflake. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a =
mistake. When a friend is in trouble, don't annoy him by asking if there i=
s anything you can do. Think up something appropriate and do it. God, plea=
se save me from your followers! If we had no winter, the spring would not =
be so pleasant; if we did not sometimes taste of adversity, prosperity wou=
ld not be so welcome. Solitude, if rightly used, becomes not only a privil=
ege but a necessity. Only a superficial soul fears to fraternize with itse=
lf. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'=
m not sure about the former. The problem with some people is that when the=
y aren't drunk, they're sober. C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the fo=
ot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. Ho=
w wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, =
rather than to create it herself. Make everything as simple as possible, b=
ut not simpler. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. It=
 has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our human=
ity. Dancing is silent poetry. Basically, I no longer work for anything bu=
t the sensation I have while working. I have come to believe that the whol=
e world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own m=
ad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. If you fi=
nd a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere. You can wi=
den your life by yourself, but to deepen it you need a friend. Each encoun=
ter that becomes a friendship turns into a lifeline. One can never have to=
o many, only too many to properly take care of. I've had a wonderful time,=
 but this wasn't it. All right, Brain, I don't like you and you don't like=
 me -- so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer. I=
n any contest between power and patience, bet on patience. In the End, we =
will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends=
 A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation. Distance betwe=
en two hearts is not an obstacle; rather a great reminder of just how stro=
ng true love can be. Iron rusts from disuse; stagnant water loses its puri=
ty and in cold weather becomes frozen; even so does inaction sap the vigor=
 of the mind. No elected body is the country, we are the country. You and =
me. Us. It can only stay that way as long as we care to keep it so. A huma=
n being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog=
, conn a shp, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a=
 wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate,=
 act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program =
a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializ=
ation is for insects. Be nice to people on your way up because you meet th=
em on your way down. Three o'clock is always too late or too early for any=
thing you want to do. Very little is needed to make a happy life. It is al=
l within yourself, in your way of thinking. A woman knows the face of the =
man she loves as a sailor knows the open sea. A friendship founded on busi=
ness is better than a business founded on friendship.=20</FONT>
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Something is missing from the fourth sentence in the second paragraph of
section 1: "...can create a message in the its own IMAP store..."

Should the third paragraph of section 1 begin "The updated APPEND
command..." or perhaps "The modified APPEND command..."?

s/token "CATENATE"/atom "CATENATE"/

Should the CATENATE extension permit relative URLs, specifying that the
base URL is "imap://currentuser@servername/" in the authenticated state
or "imap://currentuser@servername/encoded-selected-mailbox" in the
selected state?

Should the TOOBIG response be changed to include the maximum the server
will permit in that mailbox?

In the syntax, I would tend to move the space-separated-list logic into
the append-catenate rule, ala:
   append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP catenate-part) ")"

   catenate-part = text-literal / url


If I'm reading RFC 2192 (imap URL scheme), section 3, correctly, the
examples should include ";AUTH=*@", else they would be implicitly
specifying the anonymous user.  Specifying a base URL for the URLs in
the CATENATE command would let that be solved by removing the
"imap://imap.example.org/" from each URL.

The third example should note that the server may validate URLs as they
are received and therefore could return the tagged NO response with
BADURL response-code in place of any continuation request after the URL
was received (i.e., one or two "S: " lines earlier).


Philip Guenther

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Feb 19 12:37:55 2005
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On 2/18/05 at 10:18 PM -0800, Philip Guenther wrote:

>Something is missing from the fourth sentence in the second 
>paragraph of section 1: "...can create a message in the its own IMAP 
>store..."

Strike "the". Done.

>Should the third paragraph of section 1 begin "The updated APPEND 
>command..." or perhaps "The modified APPEND command..."?

"The extended APPEND command" seems good. Done.

>s/token "CATENATE"/atom "CATENATE"/

I know "CATENATE" is an ABNF "atom", but I'm not sure this sentence 
should use that word. Care to explain?

>Should the CATENATE extension permit relative URLs, specifying that 
>the base URL is "imap://currentuser@servername/" in the 
>authenticated state or 
>"imap://currentuser@servername/encoded-selected-mailbox" in the 
>selected state?

That seems perfectly reasonable. See below with regard to ";AUTH=".

>Should the TOOBIG response be changed to include the maximum the 
>server will permit in that mailbox?

I think that's included in "the server specific message size limit", 
but I could change it to "any message size limit imposed by the 
server."

>In the syntax, I would tend to move the space-separated-list logic 
>into the append-catenate rule, ala:
>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP catenate-part) ")"

That exceeds the 72 character line limit. If folks think it's 
important (it is only aesthetics), I could wrap the line.

>If I'm reading RFC 2192 (imap URL scheme), section 3, correctly, the 
>examples should include ";AUTH=*@", else they would be implicitly 
>specifying the anonymous user.

2192 does say, "If no user name is  specified and no appropriate 
authentication mechanisms are  available, the client SHOULD fall back 
to anonymous login as  described above." We can give specific 
guidance to violate the SHOULD in this case, as the URL is being used 
in the authenticated state of an IMAP session. I think a full 
discussion of this can go with the discussion of the base URL issue. 
How's about the following, inserted before the "Note:" in section 3?

Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC2192. 
However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
of an IMAP session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
performed for URLs specified in the APPEND command, and therefore no 
";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL without an ";AUTH=" 
string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP 
session. Furthermore, for relative IMAP URLs, the base URL is 
considered "imap://currentuser@servername/", where "currentuser" is 
the username of the currently authenticated user, and "servername" is 
the domain name of the current server. When in the selected state, 
the base URL is considered 
"imap://currentuser@servername/selectedmailbox", where 
"selectedmailbox" is the encoded name of the currently selected 
mailbox.

>The third example should note that the server may validate URLs as 
>they are received and therefore could return the tagged NO response 
>with BADURL response-code in place of any continuation request after 
>the URL was received (i.e., one or two "S: " lines earlier).

Seems OK to me.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> writes:
>On 2/18/05 at 10:18 PM -0800, Philip Guenther wrote:
...
>>s/token "CATENATE"/atom "CATENATE"/
>
>I know "CATENATE" is an ABNF "atom", but I'm not sure this sentence 
>should use that word. Care to explain?

Hmm, I was going to say that it sounded more natural to me with 'atom',
but after checking other IMAP RFCs, I see they generally use neither
'atom' nor 'token'.  Indeed, that's how "URL" appears in the
parenthetical remark two sentences later.  That suggest making it just 
	If the new form is used, "CATENATE" and a parenthesized list...

At the least, I think
	(indicated by the "TEXT")
should be changed to
	(indicated by "TEXT")
to match "indicated by "URL"".


...
>>Should the TOOBIG response be changed to include the maximum the 
>>server will permit in that mailbox?
>
>I think that's included in "the server specific message size limit", 
>but I could change it to "any message size limit imposed by the 
>server."

Sorry, let me clarify my query: should the syntax of the TOOBIG
response-code be changed to

   toobig_response_code = "TOOBIG" SP nz-number

so that the server can return to the client the exact value of the limit
that it exceeded?  On reflection, I'm not sure that would truly be
useful to the client and I can imagine servers where determining the
exact limit (i.e., space available) would be onerous, so it's probably
better left the way it is.


...
<regarding base urls>
>How's about the following, inserted before the "Note:" in section 3?
>
>Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC2192. 
>However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
>of an IMAP session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
>performed for URLs specified in the APPEND command, and therefore no 
>";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL without an ";AUTH=" 
>string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP 
>session. Furthermore, for relative IMAP URLs, the base URL is 
>considered "imap://currentuser@servername/", where "currentuser" is 
>the username of the currently authenticated user, and "servername" is 
>the domain name of the current server. When in the selected state, 
>the base URL is considered 
>"imap://currentuser@servername/selectedmailbox", where 
>"selectedmailbox" is the encoded name of the currently selected 
>mailbox.

Since you explain the words in the base URL, I would suggest either
changing "currentuser" to "user", "servername" to "server", and
"selectedmailbox" to "encoded-mailbox" OR adding hyphens to make the
existing words more readable.  (I used the compound words because I was
too lazy to write out their explanations; once you have explanations I
think the shorter words scan better.)  That's only a minor nit, though.
I think your new text is excellent.


Philip Guenther

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Feb 19 21:45:28 2005
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To: Philip Guenther <guenther+lemonade@sendmail.com>
From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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On 2/19/05 at 2:15 PM -0800, Philip Guenther wrote:

>...suggest making it just
>	If the new form is used, "CATENATE" and a parenthesized list...

Done.

>	(indicated by the "TEXT")
>should be changed to
>	(indicated by "TEXT")

Done.

>Sorry, let me clarify my query: should the syntax of the TOOBIG 
>response-code be changed to
>
>    toobig_response_code = "TOOBIG" SP nz-number
>
>so that the server can return to the client the exact value of the 
>limit that it exceeded?  On reflection, I'm not sure that would 
>truly be useful to the client and I can imagine servers where 
>determining the exact limit (i.e., space available) would be 
>onerous, so it's probably better left the way it is.

Leaving it as is.

>changing "currentuser" to "user", "servername" to "server"

Done.

>"selectedmailbox" to "encoded-mailbox"

Changed to simply "mailbox".

Thanks.

pr
-- 
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QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Body Part Content Conversion using ANNOTATEMORE
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:22:51 -0800
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Thanks to Michael for proposing this.

Please look at the proposed use of XCONVERT command (similar to XFETCH) pro=
posed in P-IMAP-06 to support media conversions. (It has been submitted Sun=
day should be available soon).

I recommend that we also consider such a mechanism / command to support Med=
ia conversion 5.2.6. I think that the proposed syntax is quite useful and s=
imple. I would like to see a similar command or at least compare point by p=
oint the differences...

Let's discuss in Minneapolis.

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - RTCC & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:28 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Cc: ietf-imapext@imc.org
Subject: [lemonade] Body Part Content Conversion using ANNOTATEMORE

I've put together a draft describing a proposal that uses ANNOTATEMORE
as the vehicle for discovery. Please provide comments.

I've copied both imapext and lemonade because it is relevant to both.
I would suggest any discussion be confined to the lemonade list.

I've submitted the draft, but until then you can find it at the link =

below.

http://ietf.webdav.org/imapext/draft-wener-lemonade-conversion-00.txt

Mike

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

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Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com> writes:
...
>How about :
>
>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" cat-part *(SP cat-part) ")"

Looks good.

...
>I have one remaining concern: If folks use relative URLs in the 
>selected state, how can they indicate a mailbox other than the 
>selected mailbox?

If the supplied URL starts with a single slash, then it's an
absolute-path reference and starts from the top of the hierarchy on the
current server.

There's also the possibility of relative-path references, though they're
practically useless in folder namespaces that don't use slash as the
hierarchy delimiter.  Clients may be well advised to avoid them simply
to avoid having to consider that case.


Philip Guenther

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To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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On 2/22/05 at 1:06 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>>>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP catenate-part) ")"
>>
>>That exceeds the 72 character line limit. If folks think it's 
>>important (it is only aesthetics), I could wrap the line.
>
>I like Philip's suggestion.

So you would like the above, but wrap the line?

>>>If I'm reading RFC 2192 (imap URL scheme), section 3, correctly, 
>>>the examples should include ";AUTH=*@", else they would be 
>>>implicitly specifying the anonymous user.
>>
>>2192 does say, "If no user name is  specified and no appropriate 
>>authentication mechanisms are  available, the client SHOULD fall 
>>back to anonymous login as  described above." We can give specific 
>>guidance to violate the SHOULD in this case, as the URL is being 
>>used in the authenticated state of an IMAP session. I think a full 
>>discussion of this can go with the discussion of the base URL 
>>issue. How's about the following, inserted before the "Note:" in 
>>section 3?
>
>IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.

I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary. In fact, perhaps I 
should add to the paragraph:

Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC2192. 
However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
of an IMAP session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
performed for URLs specified in the APPEND command, and therefore no 
";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL without an ";AUTH=" 
string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP 
session. Furthermore, the username is not required, nor for that 
matter is a fully qualified IMAP URL with the "imap:" scheme and 
server name; relative URLs are perfectly acceptable. For relative 
URLs, the base URL is considered "imap://user@server/", where "user" 
is the username of the currently authenticated user, and "server" is 
the domain name of the current server. When in the selected state, 
the base URL is considered "imap://user@server/mailbox", where 
"mailbox" is the encoded name of the currently selected mailbox.

>>>The third example should note that the server may validate URLs as 
>>>they are received and therefore could return the tagged NO 
>>>response with BADURL response-code in place of any continuation 
>>>request after the URL was received (i.e., one or two "S: " lines 
>>>earlier).
>>
>>Seems OK to me.
>
>And to me.

You mean the *fourth* example, right?

pr
-- 
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QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 23 23:36:57 2005
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From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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On 2/23/05 at 12:47 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>Pete Resnick wrote:
>
>>On 2/22/05 at 1:06 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>
>>>>>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP 
>>>>>catenate-part) ")"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I like Philip's suggestion.
>>
>>So you would like the above, but wrap the line?
>
>Yes.

How about :

    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" cat-part *(SP cat-part) ")"

>>>IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.
>>
>>I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary.
>
>I would prefer that the client specifies relative URLs in this case, 
>so no special handling would be needed.

2192 already accounts for no username: "If the URL doesn't  supply a 
user name, the program interpreting the IMAP URL SHOULD  request one 
from the user if necessary." So, I'm inclined to make the paragraph 
read:

Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC 2192. 
However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
of an IMAP  session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
performed for URLs specified in  the APPEND command, and therefore no 
";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL  without an ";AUTH=" 
string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP 
session. Furthermore, the user name is not required and, if not 
supplied, is the  user name of the currently authenticated user. For 
relative IMAP URLs, the base URL  is considered 
"imap://user@server/", where "user" is the user name of the currently 
authenticated user, and "server" is the domain name of the current 
server. When in  the selected state, the base URL is considered 
"imap://user@server/mailbox", where  "mailbox" is the encoded name of 
the currently selected mailbox.

I have one remaining concern: If folks use relative URLs in the 
selected state, how can they indicate a mailbox other than the 
selected mailbox?

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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Pete Resnick wrote:

>> Should the CATENATE extension permit relative URLs, specifying that 
>> the base URL is "imap://currentuser@servername/" in the authenticated 
>> state or "imap://currentuser@servername/encoded-selected-mailbox" in 
>> the selected state?
>
> That seems perfectly reasonable.

I agree.

> See below with regard to ";AUTH=".

[...]

>> In the syntax, I would tend to move the space-separated-list logic 
>> into the append-catenate rule, ala:
>>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP 
>> catenate-part) ")"
>
>
> That exceeds the 72 character line limit. If folks think it's 
> important (it is only aesthetics), I could wrap the line.

I like Philip's suggestion.

>> If I'm reading RFC 2192 (imap URL scheme), section 3, correctly, the 
>> examples should include ";AUTH=*@", else they would be implicitly 
>> specifying the anonymous user.
>
> 2192 does say, "If no user name is  specified and no appropriate 
> authentication mechanisms are  available, the client SHOULD fall back 
> to anonymous login as  described above." We can give specific guidance 
> to violate the SHOULD in this case, as the URL is being used in the 
> authenticated state of an IMAP session. I think a full discussion of 
> this can go with the discussion of the base URL issue. How's about the 
> following, inserted before the "Note:" in section 3?

IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username. After that, I am 
not sure that your text about missing ";AUTH=" is relevant.

> Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC2192. 
> However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
> of an IMAP session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
> performed for URLs specified in the APPEND command, and therefore no 
> ";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL without an ";AUTH=" 
> string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP 
> session. Furthermore, for relative IMAP URLs, the base URL is 
> considered "imap://currentuser@servername/", where "currentuser" is 
> the username of the currently authenticated user, and "servername" is 
> the domain name of the current server. When in the selected state, the 
> base URL is considered 
> "imap://currentuser@servername/selectedmailbox", where 
> "selectedmailbox" is the encoded name of the currently selected mailbox.

Looks good to me (after proposed Philip's changes).

>> The third example should note that the server may validate URLs as 
>> they are received and therefore could return the tagged NO response 
>> with BADURL response-code in place of any continuation request after 
>> the URL was received (i.e., one or two "S: " lines earlier).
>
> Seems OK to me.

And to me.



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Pete Resnick wrote:

> On 2/22/05 at 1:06 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>>>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP 
>>>> catenate-part) ")"
>>>
>>> That exceeds the 72 character line limit. If folks think it's 
>>> important (it is only aesthetics), I could wrap the line.
>>
>> I like Philip's suggestion.
>
> So you would like the above, but wrap the line?

Yes.

>>>> If I'm reading RFC 2192 (imap URL scheme), section 3, correctly, 
>>>> the examples should include ";AUTH=*@", else they would be 
>>>> implicitly specifying the anonymous user.
>>>
>>> 2192 does say, "If no user name is  specified and no appropriate 
>>> authentication mechanisms are  available, the client SHOULD fall 
>>> back to anonymous login as  described above." We can give specific 
>>> guidance to violate the SHOULD in this case, as the URL is being 
>>> used in the authenticated state of an IMAP session. I think a full 
>>> discussion of this can go with the discussion of the base URL issue. 
>>> How's about the following, inserted before the "Note:" in section 3?
>>
>> IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.
>
> I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary. In fact, perhaps I 
> should add to the paragraph:
>
> Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC2192. 
> However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
> of an IMAP session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
> performed for URLs specified in the APPEND command, and therefore no 
> ";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL without an ";AUTH=" 
> string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP 
> session. Furthermore, the username is not required, nor for that 
> matter is a fully qualified IMAP URL with the "imap:" scheme and 
> server name; relative URLs are perfectly acceptable. For relative 
> URLs, the base URL is considered "imap://user@server/", where "user" 
> is the username of the currently authenticated user, and "server" is 
> the domain name of the current server. When in the selected state, the 
> base URL is considered "imap://user@server/mailbox", where "mailbox" 
> is the encoded name of the currently selected mailbox.

I would prefer that the client specifies relative URLs in this case, so 
no special handling would be needed.

>>>> The third example should note that the server may validate URLs as 
>>>> they are received and therefore could return the tagged NO response 
>>>> with BADURL response-code in place of any continuation request 
>>>> after the URL was received (i.e., one or two "S: " lines earlier).
>>>
>>> Seems OK to me.
>>
>> And to me.
>
> You mean the *fourth* example, right?

Yes.


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Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>>>>> IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary.
>>>
>>> I would prefer that the client specifies relative URLs in this case, 
>>> so no special handling would be needed.
>>
>> 2192 already accounts for no username: "If the URL doesn't  supply a 
>> user name, the program interpreting the IMAP URL SHOULD  request one 
>> from the user if necessary." So, I'm inclined to make the paragraph 
>> read:
>
It sounds wrong to me that we redefine behavior of existing constructs 
while there is a perfectly acceptable way of doing the same: if the 
client doesn't want to send username (and in this case hostname should 
be omitted too), it should use a relative URL.



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Pete Resnick wrote:

> On 2/23/05 at 12:47 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>> Pete Resnick wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/22/05 at 1:06 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" catenate-part *(SP 
>>>>>> catenate-part) ")"
>>>>>
>>>> I like Philip's suggestion.
>>>
>>> So you would like the above, but wrap the line?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> How about :
>
>    append-catenate = "CATENATE" SP "(" cat-part *(SP cat-part) ")"

Fine with me.

>>>> IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.
>>>
>>> I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary.
>>
>> I would prefer that the client specifies relative URLs in this case, 
>> so no special handling would be needed.
>
>
> 2192 already accounts for no username: "If the URL doesn't  supply a 
> user name, the program interpreting the IMAP URL SHOULD  request one 
> from the user if necessary." So, I'm inclined to make the paragraph read:
>
> Message URLs are interpreted according to the rules of RFC 2192. 
> However, since the APPEND command is valid in the authenticated state 
> of an IMAP  session, no further LOGIN or AUTHENTICATE command is 
> performed for URLs specified in  the APPEND command, and therefore no 
> ";AUTH=" string is required in the URL. A URL  without an ";AUTH=" 
> string refers to a message from the currently authenticated IMAP session.

I would change the last sentence to "A URL  without an ";AUTH=" string 
refers to a message accessible from the currently authenticated IMAP 
session."
This will also allow for "imap://<otheruser>@<server>/<mailbox>", where 
<otheruser> != current user.

BTW, how does CATENATE interact with URLAUTH URLs?

> Furthermore, the user name is not required and, if not supplied, is 
> the  user name of the currently authenticated user. For relative IMAP 
> URLs, the base URL  is considered "imap://user@server/", where "user" 
> is the user name of the currently authenticated user, and "server" is 
> the domain name of the current server. When in  the selected state, 
> the base URL is considered "imap://user@server/mailbox", where  
> "mailbox" is the encoded name of the currently selected mailbox.
>
> I have one remaining concern: If folks use relative URLs in the 
> selected state, how can they indicate a mailbox other than the 
> selected mailbox?

"/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=20;section=HEADER"
?

I think it is better to use the same base URL "imap://user@server/" in 
all states. This seems to make any URL generation logic simpler in clients.

Alexey



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On Wed Feb 23 22:10:42 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> 
>>>>>> IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary.
>>>> 
>>>> I would prefer that the client specifies relative URLs in this case, so no special handling would be needed.
>>> 
>>> 2192 already accounts for no username: "If the URL doesn't  supply a user name, the program interpreting the IMAP URL SHOULD  request one from the user if necessary." So, I'm inclined to make the paragraph read:
>> 
> It sounds wrong to me that we redefine behavior of existing constructs while there is a perfectly acceptable way of doing the same: if the client doesn't want to send username (and in this case hostname should be omitted too), it should use a relative URL.

I'd be inclined to say MUST. Otherwise an IMAP server has to know all possible hostnames for itself, to detirmine whether it's being asked to CATENATE a part from another message in its own store, or whether it's URLAUTH, or simply an anonymous access IMAP server that it needs to fetch the part from.

Most ISPs, for instance, tend to provide a CNAME or A record for every domain they manage pointing to their mail servers - that's a common practise unlikely to change and very difficult to handle the full URL case - if we later expand this to interact with URLAUTH and other IMAP URLs.

Dave.

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To: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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Dave Cridland wrote:

> On Wed Feb 23 22:10:42 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>> Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> IMHO, examples must be fixed to have a proper username.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see why. A username should be unnecessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer that the client specifies relative URLs in this 
>>>>> case, so no special handling would be needed.
>>>>
>>>> 2192 already accounts for no username: "If the URL doesn't  supply 
>>>> a user name, the program interpreting the IMAP URL SHOULD  request 
>>>> one from the user if necessary." So, I'm inclined to make the 
>>>> paragraph read:
>>>
>> It sounds wrong to me that we redefine behavior of existing 
>> constructs while there is a perfectly acceptable way of doing the 
>> same: if the client doesn't want to send username (and in this case 
>> hostname should be omitted too), it should use a relative URL.
>
> I'd be inclined to say MUST. Otherwise an IMAP server has to know all 
> possible hostnames for itself, to detirmine whether it's being asked 
> to CATENATE a part from another message in its own store, or whether 
> it's URLAUTH, or simply an anonymous access IMAP server that it needs 
> to fetch the part from.

Good point. If the client specifies a hostname, the server must verify 
it, for example by doing a DNS lookup.

> Most ISPs, for instance, tend to provide a CNAME or A record for every 
> domain they manage pointing to their mail servers - that's a common 
> practise unlikely to change and very difficult to handle the full URL 
> case - if we later expand this to interact with URLAUTH and other IMAP 
> URLs.



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From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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On Thu Feb 24 13:44:52 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Dave Cridland wrote:
>> On Wed Feb 23 22:10:42 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>> It sounds wrong to me that we redefine behavior of existing constructs while there is a perfectly acceptable way of doing the same: if the client doesn't want to send username (and in this case hostname should be omitted too), it should use a relative URL.
>> 
>> I'd be inclined to say MUST. Otherwise an IMAP server has to know all possible hostnames for itself, to detirmine whether it's being asked to CATENATE a part from another message in its own store, or whether it's URLAUTH, or simply an anonymous access IMAP server that it needs to fetch the part from.
> 
> Good point. If the client specifies a hostname, the server must verify it, for example by doing a DNS lookup.
> 

Then  it has to know all possible IP addresses for itself, including those on NAT port redirectors, etc. It's a smaller problem, but still a problem. Forcing relative URLs avoids this problem entirely.

Also, if you further restrict clients to using URLs relative to the server (as opposed to the selected mailbox if any), then spotting invalid URLs is quite easy [Is the first character not '/'?], and APPEND doesn't change its behaviour depending on state.

I doubt whether many clients would use URLs relative to the currently selected mailbox anyway.

That merely leaves the question of whether a server should reject URLs without UIDVALIDITY included, which I think needs to be a MUST, to avoid accidental sending of the wrong data.

Of course, none of this applies if the URL was begat from URLAUTH, or was an anonymous imap URL, or was some other scheme entirely, but as I understand things, that's all outside the scope of CATENATE at this stage. But this way such URLs would be easier to process, I'd have thought.

Dave.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Feb 24 12:48:43 2005
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] TENTATIVE Schedule
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:46:37 -0800
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Eric,

When can we assume that it is frozen? I believe that we were told this woul=
d be stabler this time after last time screw ups?

Thanks

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - RTCC & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Eric Burger
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:26 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] TENTATIVE Schedule

Wednesday 9 March
1300-1500 lemonade

Thursday 10 March
1645-1745 lemonade

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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:41:21 -0600
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From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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On 2/23/05 at 9:48 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>Pete Resnick wrote:
>
>>A URL  without an ";AUTH=" string refers to a message from the 
>>currently authenticated IMAP session.
>
>I would change the last sentence to "A URL  without an ";AUTH=" 
>string refers to a message accessible from the currently 
>authenticated IMAP session."
>This will also allow for "imap://<otheruser>@<server>/<mailbox>", 
>where <otheruser> != current user.

I see what you're getting at. How about this: "When a URL has an 
";AUTH=*" string, or does not have an ";AUTH=" string at all, the 
current authenticated session is used."

>BTW, how does CATENATE interact with URLAUTH URLs?

I don't see why they should be a problem. Is there anything you think 
needs pointing out?

>>I have one remaining concern: If folks use relative URLs in the 
>>selected state, how can they indicate a mailbox other than the 
>>selected mailbox?
>
>"/Drafts;UIDVALIDITY=385759045/;UID=20;section=HEADER"
>?

Yup, of course. As Philip Guenther wrote on 2/23/05 at 2:50 PM -0800:

>If the supplied URL starts with a single slash, then it's an 
>absolute-path reference and starts from the top of the hierarchy on 
>the current server.

That's in the definition of relative URLs. Of course that makes sense.

>There's also the possibility of relative-path references, though 
>they're practically useless in folder namespaces that don't use 
>slash as the hierarchy delimiter.  Clients may be well advised to 
>avoid them simply to avoid having to consider that case.

That advice is in RFC 2192.

On 2/24/05 at 3:45 PM +0000, Dave Cridland wrote:
>On Thu Feb 24 13:44:52 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>Dave Cridland wrote:
>>>On Wed Feb 23 22:10:42 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>>>It sounds wrong to me that we redefine behavior of existing 
>>>>constructs while there is a perfectly acceptable way of doing the 
>>>>same: if the client doesn't want to send username (and in this 
>>>>case hostname should be omitted too), it should use a relative 
>>>>URL.

Actually, I think I now believe Alexey. 2192 also says, "If no user 
name or authentication  mechanism is supplied, the user name 
"anonymous" is used..." So, I'll remove the bit about leaving out the 
user name. If you want to do that, use a relative URL.

>>>I'd be inclined to say MUST. Otherwise an IMAP server has to know 
>>>all possible hostnames for itself, to detirmine whether it's being 
>>>asked to CATENATE a part from another message in its own store, or 
>>>whether it's URLAUTH, or simply an anonymous access IMAP server 
>>>that it needs to fetch the part from.
>>
>>Good point. If the client specifies a hostname, the server must 
>>verify it, for example by doing a DNS lookup.
>
>Then  it has to know all possible IP addresses for itself, including 
>those on NAT port redirectors, etc. It's a smaller problem, but 
>still a problem. Forcing relative URLs avoids this problem entirely.

But it does mean that you can't access IMAP messages that are on the 
local server but in another user's (or anonymous) readable space. 
That's not currently a limitation in the spec. Are you suggesting it 
should be?

Is there no way for the server to determine "this domain name is me"?

>Also, if you further restrict clients to using URLs relative to the 
>server (as opposed to the selected mailbox if any), then spotting 
>invalid URLs is quite easy [Is the first character not '/'?], and 
>APPEND doesn't change its behaviour depending on state.

I can understand not wanting the base to change according to state. I 
can remove that bit about the selected mailbox if you all think 
that's what you want. But I'm not convinced that a server should 
reject *all* absolute URLs, even if a server knows that a URL refers 
to itself.

>I doubt whether many clients would use URLs relative to the 
>currently selected mailbox anyway.

Right now, clients SELECT a mailbox, FETCH a message, and then APPEND 
it to the server. I can see a client replacing simply the 
FETCH/APPEND part by doing doing:

APPEND blah blah URL "UID=50" blah blah

That way you don't have to have the context of which mailbox you're 
FETCHing from in the routine that does the APPEND.

>That merely leaves the question of whether a server should reject 
>URLs without UIDVALIDITY included, which I think needs to be a MUST, 
>to avoid accidental sending of the wrong data.

Again, I can see a client having a set of routines that does a SELECT 
followed by a series of commands. I can see a client depending on 
UIDVALIDITY being stable during the selected state and not passing 
around that value to routines that need to do FETCHes. I don't see 
why we should require UIDVALIDITY if the client knows what it's 
asking for.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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Pete Resnick wrote:

>>>> I'd be inclined to say MUST. Otherwise an IMAP server has to know 
>>>> all possible hostnames for itself, to detirmine whether it's being 
>>>> asked to CATENATE a part from another message in its own store, or 
>>>> whether it's URLAUTH, or simply an anonymous access IMAP server 
>>>> that it needs to fetch the part from.
>>>
>>> Good point. If the client specifies a hostname, the server must 
>>> verify it, for example by doing a DNS lookup.
>>
>> Then  it has to know all possible IP addresses for itself, including 
>> those on NAT port redirectors, etc. It's a smaller problem, but still 
>> a problem. Forcing relative URLs avoids this problem entirely.
>
> But it does mean that you can't access IMAP messages that are on the 
> local server but in another user's (or anonymous) readable space. 
> That's not currently a limitation in the spec. Are you suggesting it 
> should be?

I think the client should be able to do that, but it shouldn't make 
server work harder. Relative URLs should be easier for the server.

> Is there no way for the server to determine "this domain name is me"?
>
>> Also, if you further restrict clients to using URLs relative to the 
>> server (as opposed to the selected mailbox if any), then spotting 
>> invalid URLs is quite easy [Is the first character not '/'?], and 
>> APPEND doesn't change its behaviour depending on state.
>
> I can understand not wanting the base to change according to state. I 
> can remove that bit about the selected mailbox if you all think that's 
> what you want.

I certainly want to see this change.

> But I'm not convinced that a server should reject *all* absolute URLs, 
> even if a server knows that a URL refers to itself.

I don't think we should reject all absolute URLs.

>> I doubt whether many clients would use URLs relative to the currently 
>> selected mailbox anyway.
>
> Right now, clients SELECT a mailbox, FETCH a message, and then APPEND 
> it to the server. I can see a client replacing simply the FETCH/APPEND 
> part by doing doing:
>
> APPEND blah blah URL "UID=50" blah blah
>
> That way you don't have to have the context of which mailbox you're 
> FETCHing from in the routine that does the APPEND.
>
>> That merely leaves the question of whether a server should reject 
>> URLs without UIDVALIDITY included, which I think needs to be a MUST, 
>> to avoid accidental sending of the wrong data.
>
> Again, I can see a client having a set of routines that does a SELECT 
> followed by a series of commands. I can see a client depending on 
> UIDVALIDITY being stable during the selected state and not passing 
> around that value to routines that need to do FETCHes. I don't see why 
> we should require UIDVALIDITY if the client knows what it's asking for.

Hmm, your basic assumption is that IMAP URLs are short-lived.
URLAUTH urls are long-lived, so they should have UIDVALIDITY.



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From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Re: catenate-04 submitted
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On 2/25/05 at 5:40 PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>>>>Good point. If the client specifies a hostname, the server must 
>>>>verify it, for example by doing a DNS lookup.
>>>
>>>Then  it has to know all possible IP addresses for itself, 
>>>including those on NAT port redirectors, etc. It's a smaller 
>>>problem, but still a problem. Forcing relative URLs avoids this 
>>>problem entirely.
>>
>>But it does mean that you can't access IMAP messages that are on 
>>the local server but in another user's (or anonymous) readable 
>>space. That's not currently a limitation in the spec. Are you 
>>suggesting it should be?
>
>I think the client should be able to do that, but it shouldn't make 
>server work harder. Relative URLs should be easier for the server.

So you're saying that relative URLs are *not* required. I tend to 
agree with that. I agree that relative URLs are easier on the server, 
but I don't think we can require them. Any change to the current text 
in that regard?

>>I can understand not wanting the base to change according to state. 
>>I can remove that bit about the selected mailbox if you all think 
>>that's what you want.
>
>I certainly want to see this change.

So you don't buy the argument that clients will want to SELECT and 
then use UID without having to specify the mailbox in each URL? Like:

>>Right now, clients SELECT a mailbox, FETCH a message, and then 
>>APPEND it to the server. I can see a client replacing simply the 
>>FETCH/APPEND part by doing doing:
>>
>>APPEND blah blah URL "UID=50" blah blah
>>
>>That way you don't have to have the context of which mailbox you're 
>>FETCHing from in the routine that does the APPEND.

That's why I wanted to have the base switch in the selected state.

>>But I'm not convinced that a server should reject *all* absolute 
>>URLs, even if a server knows that a URL refers to itself.
>
>I don't think we should reject all absolute URLs.

Works for me.

>>>That merely leaves the question of whether a server should reject 
>>>URLs without UIDVALIDITY included, which I think needs to be a 
>>>MUST, to avoid accidental sending of the wrong data.
>>
>>Again, I can see a client having a set of routines that does a 
>>SELECT followed by a series of commands. I can see a client 
>>depending on UIDVALIDITY being stable during the selected state and 
>>not passing around that value to routines that need to do FETCHes. 
>>I don't see why we should require UIDVALIDITY if the client knows 
>>what it's asking for.
>
>Hmm, your basic assumption is that IMAP URLs are short-lived.
>URLAUTH urls are long-lived, so they should have UIDVALIDITY.

David was suggesting that we *require* UIDVALIDITY on *all* URLs 
passed in the new APPEND command. That doesn't make sense to me.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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On Fri Feb 25 18:21:47 2005, Pete Resnick wrote:
> So you're saying that relative URLs are *not* required. I tend to agree with that. I agree that relative URLs are easier on the server, but I don't think we can require them. Any change to the current text in that regard?
> 

Yes, I'm not thinking about all cases - where the name of a mailbox changes depending on the current user, then you do indeed need an absolute URL. Which is a shame, it means extra configuration, since a client can only form a URL which *it* can then use to access the server, not one that the server can use.

One option might be to mandate that, where a local absolute URL is used, the hostname used should be "localhost".

> 
>>> I can understand not wanting the base to change according to state. I can remove that bit about the selected mailbox if you all think that's what you want.
>> 
>> I certainly want to see this change.
> 
> So you don't buy the argument that clients will want to SELECT and then use UID without having to specify the mailbox in each URL? Like:
> 
> 
>>> Right now, clients SELECT a mailbox, FETCH a message, and then APPEND it to the server. I can see a client replacing simply the FETCH/APPEND part by doing doing:
>>> 
>>> APPEND blah blah URL "UID=50" blah blah
>>> 
>>> That way you don't have to have the context of which mailbox you're FETCHing from in the routine that does the APPEND.
> 
> That's why I wanted to have the base switch in the selected state.
> 

Yes, I agree this is a common use-case - in fact, probably the most common. I'm wary, though, of having the usable syntax of a command change dependent on state.

As far as I'm aware, no other commands do this - they're simply valid or not in a given state, and don't actually change.

> 
>>> But I'm not convinced that a server should reject *all* absolute URLs, even if a server knows that a URL refers to itself.
>> 
>> I don't think we should reject all absolute URLs.
> 
> Works for me.
> 

I'm quite happy to accept I've been proved wrong on this, let's keep them.

I'd suggest that URLs intended to specify a local mailbox, using the name suitable for the local user, SHOULD be relative, though.

> 
>>>> That merely leaves the question of whether a server should reject URLs without UIDVALIDITY included, which I think needs to be a MUST, to avoid accidental sending of the wrong data.
>>> 
>>> Again, I can see a client having a set of routines that does a SELECT followed by a series of commands. I can see a client depending on UIDVALIDITY being stable during the selected state and not passing around that value to routines that need to do FETCHes. I don't see why we should require UIDVALIDITY if the client knows what it's asking for.
>> 
>> Hmm, your basic assumption is that IMAP URLs are short-lived.
>> URLAUTH urls are long-lived, so they should have UIDVALIDITY.
> 
> David was suggesting that we *require* UIDVALIDITY on *all* URLs passed in the new APPEND command. That doesn't make sense to me.

It depends on whether you want the APPEND command to change dependent on state, in order to allow "UID=50" style URLs. In this one case, you don't need UIDVALIDITY, in all others, you do.

The chance of a client being caught out by a UIDVALIDITY change it is unaware of is small, but possible. (And a nightmare to track down.)

Dave.

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