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To: Glenn Parsons <gparsons@nortel.com>, Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>
From: Dean Willis(OMA) <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>, Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck@verisign.com>, statements@ietf.org, "Stéphane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
Subject: [lemonade] Submission of New Liaison Statement,
 "OMA LS 0046 MWG-MEM SWG Response 
 to Liaison on Mobile e-mail from the IETF LEMONADE WG" 
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Title: OMA LS 0046 MWG-MEM SWG Response to Liaison on Mobile e-mail from =
the IETF LEMONADE WG
Submission Date: 2005-10-31
URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_det=
ail.cgi?detail_id=3D146=20

From: Dean Willis(OMA) <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: IETF Lemonade WG(Glenn Parsons <gparsons@nortel.com>, Eric Burger <eb=
urger@brooktrout.com>)
Cc: lemonade@ietf.org
Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck@verisign.com>
Reponse Contact: St=C3=A9phane H. Maes <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
Technical Contact: St=C3=A9phane H. Maes <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
Purpose: For information=20
Body: Date: 5 September, 2005

1	Overview

The IETF LEMONADE WG responded to the liaison initiated by OMA MEM SWG. T=
his response is available as document OMA-MEM-2005-0020-ILS-regarding-MWG=
-MEM-RD.=20

The present liaison is in response to OMA-MEM-2005-0020-ILS-regarding-MWG=
-MEM-RD.

2	Proposal

The IETF LEMONADE liaison response OMA-MEM-2005-0020-ILS-regarding-MWG-ME=
M-RD was presented to OMA MWG-MEM at the interim meeting held in Paris on=
 August 8 and 9, 2005, including the detailed answer and analysis of the =
mobile email enabler RD draft that was provided to the LEMONADE WG.

In the meanwhile OMA MWG-MEM wishes to inform the IETF LEMONADE WG that i=
t is interested in ongoing collaboration with IETF LEMONADE and to hold a=
 joint workshop with the IETF LEMONADE WG.

OMA MWG-MEM will hold its next interim meeting on September 26 and 27 at =
the GSMA HQ, in Central London, so that a joint workshop could be arrange=
d in London on Wednesday September 28, 2005 prior to the IETF LEMONADE in=
terim face to face meeting. Details on the workshop will be distributed t=
o OMA MEM and IETF LEMONADE separately.

Details on the OMA MWG-MEM interim meeting, open only to OMA members, are=
 available in document OMA-MEM-2005-0030R01-Interim-Meeting-London-26-27-=
September.

OMA MWG-MEM intends to provide detailed updates of the Mobile e-mail enab=
ler related activities, including disposition of the comments received fr=
om LEMONADE. It will also provide answers to questions contained in the
Attachment(s):
No document has been attached



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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 02 14:31:44 2005
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Folks,

As you may have noted from our agenda, and recalled from our workshop in
London, a liaison has been received from the OMA:
http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade/liaisons/liaisons.html
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaisons.cgi

The OMA Requirements Document for Mobile Email has now been approved:
http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/index.html
http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/docs/RD/OMA-RD-MobileE
mail-V1_0_20051018-C.pdf

As well, the Architecture Document has been updated:
http://www.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/MWG/MEM/Permanent
_documents/OMA-AD-Mobile_email-V1_0_0-20051023-D.zip

As discussed in London, the intent is to propose a realization of the
requirements and architecture from OMA using the LEMONADE profile.  We
agreed in London that we would make this a working group draft after the
meeting next week.

Cheers,
Glenn.

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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
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<TITLE>OMA liaison</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As you may have noted from our agenda, =
and recalled from our workshop in London, a liaison has been received =
from the OMA:</FONT></P>

<P><A =
HREF=3D"http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade/liaisons/liaisons.htm=
l"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade/liaisons/liais=
ons.html</FONT></U></A>

<BR><A =
HREF=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaisons.cgi"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaisons.cgi</FONT></U=
></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The OMA Requirements Document for =
Mobile Email has now been approved:</FONT>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/index.html"><SP=
AN LANG=3D"en-gb"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/index.ht=
ml</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></A><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/docs/RD/OMA-RD-=
MobileEmail-V1_0_20051018-C.pdf"><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/docs/RD/=
OMA-RD-MobileEmail-V1_0_20051018-C.pdf</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"></SPAN>
</P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As well, the =
Architecture Document has been updated:</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/MWG/MEM/Pe=
rmanent_documents/OMA-AD-Mobile_email-V1_0_0-20051023-D.zip"><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/MWG=
/MEM/Permanent_documents/OMA-AD-Mobile_email-V1_0_0-20051023-D.zip</FONT>=
</U></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As discussed in =
London, the intent is to propose a realization of the requirements and =
architecture from OMA using the LEMONADE profile.&nbsp; We agreed in =
London that we would make this a working group draft after the meeting =
next week.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT></SPAN>

<BR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn.</FONT></SPAN>
</P>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 05 18:42:59 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] Last Call: 'Mapping Between the Multimedia Messaging
 Service (MMS) and Internet Mail' to Proposed Standard 
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A previous version of this document was approved by the IESG.  After an
appeal by John Klensin, the document was returned to the working group.
The working group has made significant changes in response to the appeal
and in relation to the follow-on discussion.  This version incorporates those
changes, and the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse
service environments WG has requested the IESG to consider the following
document:

- 'Mapping Between the Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS) and Internet Mail '
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-mms-mapping-06.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send any comments to the
iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2005-11-25.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-mms-mapping-06.txt


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 11:11:40 2005
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Cc: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Document relationship question Re: Last Call: 'Mapping
 Between the
 Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS) and Internet Mail' to Proposed Standard 
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One issue of documentation of relationship between documents that I'd like=20
to be reassured about......

in May 2005, the IESG approved the URI scheme "mms" as part of its approval =

of draft-ietf-enum-msg-05.

This document contains the statement:

   Enumservice Name: "mms"

   Enumservice Type: "mms"

   Enumservice Subtypes: "mailto"

   URI Scheme: 'mailto:'

   Functional Specification:

      This Enumservice indicates that the resource identified by the
      associated URI scheme is capable of receiving a message using an
      email protocol.

      MMS messages are sent over SMTP using the format specified by TS
      23.140 [15] section 8.4.4 and TS 26.140 [16] section 4.

      Within and between MMS Environments (MMSE, network infrastructures
      that support the MultiMedia Service), other pieces of state data
      (for example, charging-significant information) are exchanged
      between MMS Relay Servers.  Thus, although these servers use SMTP
      as the "bearer" for their application exchanges, they map their
      internal state to specialised headers carried in the SMTP message
      exchanges.  The headers used in such MMSE are described in detail
      in [17].

Relevant references:

   [15]  3GPP, "Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS); Functional
         description; Stage 2 (Release 5)", 3GPP TS 23.140.

   [16]  3GPP, "Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS); Media formats and
         codecs; (Release 5)", 3GPP TS 26.140.

   [17]  Gellens, R., "Mapping Between the Multimedia Messaging Service
         (MMS) and Internet Mail", draft-ietf-lemonade-mms-mapping-03
         (Work in Progress), April 2005.

In the draft under consideration, what may be the same references as the=20
first two are formatted oddly:

Normative:

    [Stage_3] "MMS MM1 Stage 3 using OMA/WAP", X.S0016-310

    "MMS MM4 Stage 3 Inter-Carrier Interworking", X.S0016-340

    "Multimedia Messaging Service:  Functional description; Stage 2", TS
    23.140 Release 5.

Informative:

    [Stage_2] "Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS); Stage 2", Functional
    Specification, April 2003, X.S0016-200.

              "Multimedia Messaging Service; Media formats and codecs",
    TS26.140Release 5.

My research at the time of draft-ietf-enum-msg-04 (September 2004 to=20
February 2005) indicated that both these specifications were needed to have =

anything like a fully specified mapping; at that time, the -lemonade-=20
document was not referred to at all.

I'd like to have reassurance that:

- between the -lemonade- document, the -enum- document and the TS=20
23.140/26.140 documents, we have one specification for how to carry MMS=20
over email for any given context (the insertion of the cross reference in=20
-enum--05 seems to indicate that such a desire is present). (It's possible=20
that the context that -enum- describes, MMS/Internet gateways, is different =

from the one -enum- describes. But the -enum- doc is not clear to me on=20
this.)

- the TS 26.140 reference is indeed informative for the -lemonade- spec

- if any component of 23.140 or 26.140 is being updated or obsoleted by the =

-lemonade- spec, it is properly noted in the -lemonade- document and known=20
to the maintainers of the 3GPP documents.

It would also be nice if the references in the -lemonade- document were=20
formatted in a more standard fashion...... the current format suggests=20
either that the reference covers a group of unrelated documents or that=20
there is a [tag] missing for a couple of the documents.

This is not a comment about the technical content of the document, which I=20
have not reviewed; it's just a worry that we should document our=20
specification relationships as clearly as possible.

Regards,

                 Harald Alvestrand


--On 5. november 2005 18:42 -0500 The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:

> A previous version of this document was approved by the IESG.  After an
> appeal by John Klensin, the document was returned to the working group.
> The working group has made significant changes in response to the appeal
> and in relation to the follow-on discussion.  This version incorporates
> those changes, and the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse
> service environments WG has requested the IESG to consider the following
> document:
>
> - 'Mapping Between the Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS) and Internet
> Mail '    <draft-ietf-lemonade-mms-mapping-06.txt> as a Proposed Standard
>
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final comments on this action.  Please send any comments to the
> iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2005-11-25.
>
> The file can be obtained via
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-mms-mapping-06.txt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>
>




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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 14:33:29 2005
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If you haven't been to the supplemental site for a while, the meeting =
materials for IETF 64 are now at:

<https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=3D=
64>


--
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If you haven't been to the supplemental site for a =
while, the meeting materials for IETF 64 are now at:<BR>
<BR>
&lt;<A =
HREF=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting=
_num=3D64">https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meet=
ing_num=3D64</A>&gt;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Sent from my Palm Treo - Sorry if Terse</FONT>
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 06 20:35:15 2005
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Folks,

FYI, in case you did not notice, after many years the final VPIM RFCs =
have made it through the RFC Editor's Queue.

RFC4237 <ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4237.txt>        Voice =
Messaging Directory Service =20
RFC4238 <ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4238.txt>        Voice =
Message Routing Service =20
RFC4239 <ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4239.txt>        Internet =
Voice Messaging (IVM)  =20

In my mind, even though the WG was closed some time ago, the work of the =
VPIM WG is now complete.

And to celebrate, Nortel is hosting IETF 64 in Vancouver :-)

The mailing list remains open to discuss any issues with the published =
RFCs.

Cheers,
Glenn.

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">FYI, in case you did not notice, after =
many years the final VPIM RFCs have made it through the RFC Editor's =
Queue.</FONT>
</P>

<P><A HREF=3D"ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4237.txt"><U><B><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">RFC4237</FONT></B></U></A><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<B> Voice Messaging Directory Service =
=A0</B><BR>
</FONT><A =
HREF=3D"ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4238.txt"><U></U><U><B><FONT=
 COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">RFC4238</FONT></B></U></A><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</FONT><B><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> Voice =
Message Routing Service =A0</FONT></B><BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc4239.txt"><U></U><U><B><FONT=
 COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">RFC4239</FONT></B></U></A><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</FONT><B><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> Internet =
Voice Messaging (IVM) =A0</FONT></B><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In my mind, even though the WG was =
closed some time ago, the work of the VPIM WG is now complete.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">And to celebrate, Nortel is hosting =
IETF 64 in Vancouver :-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The mailing list remains open to =
discuss any issues with the published RFCs.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn.</FONT>
</P>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 07 10:25:09 2005
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If you are not able to visit with us in Vancouver, the session will be
streamed live.

Check out http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf

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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 16:57:37 -0800
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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Profile WG last call
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: [lemonade] Profile WG last
call</title></head><body>
<div>(1) Editorial comment: I think it would be more clear to use
&quot;U&quot; instead of &quot;M&quot; in examples and figures to
represent the messaging User Agent.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(2) Editorial: In</div>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab><font
face="Courier" color="#000000">The advent of client/server email using
the [RFC3501], [RFC2821] and<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC2476] protocols has changed what formerly were local
disk</font></div>
<div><font face="Courier" color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; operations to
become excessive and repetitive network data</font></div>
<div><font face="Courier" color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;
transmissions.&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>Delete &quot;excessive&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(3) Editorial: In</div>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab><font
face="Courier" color="#000000">Lemonade &quot;forward without
download&quot; has the advantage of maintaining<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; one submission protocol, and thus avoids the risk of
having multiple</font></div>
<div><font face="Courier" color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; parallel and
possible divergent mechanisms for submission. The</font></div>
<div>I think &quot;possible&quot; should be
&quot;possibly&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(4) I suggested changing the [RFC2476] reference to the update
which is in the RFC Editor's queue.&nbsp; I don't recall anyone
disagreeing, but perhaps I missed it.&nbsp; Is there a reason not
to?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(5) In &quot;assembling them. [UIDPLUS] IMAP extension is used by
the client in &quot;, add &quot;The&quot; before
&quot;[UIDPLUS]&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(6) In example on page 6, &quot;of the semantics and steps) -
this allows the MUA to create&quot;, you want a dash, not a hyphen,
and this is generally represented in ASCII as two hyphens, so make it
&quot;of the semantics and steps) -- this allows the MUA to
create&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(7) Same example on page 6, &quot;messages on the IMAP using new
data combined with one or more&quot;, add &quot;server&quot; after
&quot;IMAP&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(8) Same example on page 6, &quot;message part already present on
the IMAP server. &quot;, change &quot;part&quot; to
&quot;parts&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(9) Same comment as (6), but on page 7: &quot;[BURL] for details
of the semantics and steps - this allows the MUA &quot; should be
&quot;[BURL] for details of the semantics and steps -- this allows the
MUA &quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(10) In 3.1. Pipelining, is it accurate to say that use of
pipelining reduces round-trips?&nbsp; Certainly it avoids waiting
during round-trips.&nbsp; Also, I don't think use of pipelining
reduces bandwidth usage, but it certainly reduces elapsed time and can
reduce traffic channel usage.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(11) In 3.3. Message size declaration, do we want to say that
clients SHOULD use message size declaration?&nbsp; No point in sending
a message that the server will reject, especially given the bandwidth
and elapsed time usage to do so.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(12) In 4. Quick resynchronization, change &quot;has occurred&quot;
to &quot;have occurred&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(13) In 7. Future work, change &quot;Future phases of the
Lemonade profile are expected to address issues related to access of
email from mobile devices, possibly including&quot; to &quot;Ongoing
work within the lemonade wg is looking into additional issues related
to access of email from mobile devices, possibly
including:&quot;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(14) in 8.2 TLS, change &quot;When LEMONADE clients uses the BURL
extension to mail Submission&quot; to &quot;When LEMONADE clients use
the BURL extension to mail submission&quot; (make &quot;use&quot;
agree with &quot;clients&quot; and don't capitalize
&quot;submission&quot;).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(15)&nbsp; Also in 8.2, change &quot;LEMONADE Compliant mail
submission server SHOULD use TLS protected&quot; to &quot;LEMONADE
compliant mail submission servers SHOULD use TLS protected&quot;
(don't capitalize &quot;compliant&quot;, and make &quot;server&quot;
plural).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(16) Also in 8.2, in:</div>
<div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab>When a
client uses SMTP STARTTLS to send a BURL command which</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; references non-public information there is a user
expectation that<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the entire message content will be treated
confidentially.&nbsp; To<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; address this expectation, the message submission server
should use<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STARTTLS or a mechanism providing equivalent data
confidentiality<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; when fetching the content referenced by that URL.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(a) add a comma after &quot;references non-public
information&quot;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(b) change &quot;address&quot; to &quot;meet&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
<div>Randall Gellens<br>
Opinions are personal;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; facts are
suspect;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I speak for myself only<br>
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------<br>
A child of five would understand this. &nbsp;Send somebody to<br>
fetch a child of five. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Groucho Marx, _Duck Soup_<br>
</div></body>
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 07 13:14:16 2005
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:04:05 -0800
To: lemonade@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question 2:  how to change the extension
 framework
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At 10:43 AM +0100 10/18/05, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  #2 seems better, because it is more clear on the fact that one 
> can't specify both "holdfor" and "holduntil" values in the same 
> MAIL FROM command.

It's pretty easy to do this in ABNF, isn't it?  Perhaps I'm missing 
something, but off the top of my head:

hold		=	hold-for / hold-until
hold-for	=	"hold-for" delta-time
hold-until	=	"hold-until" RFC3339-date-time

Why introduce an extra parameter that serves no purpose ("hold") and 
needs to be followed by the actual differentiator?

So I'd suggest going with #1 ("hold-for" and "hold-until").
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
                Salvador Hardin

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 07 14:09:55 2005
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:09:27 -0800
To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, iesg@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Document relationship question Re: Last Call:
	'Mapping  Between the  Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS) and
	Internet Mail' to Proposed Standard
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At 7:27 AM -0800 11/6/05, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:

>  I'd like to have reassurance that:
>
>  - between the -lemonade- document, the -enum- document and the TS 
> 23.140/26.140 documents, we have one specification for how to carry 
> MMS over email for any given context (the insertion of the cross 
> reference in -enum--05 seems to indicate that such a desire is 
> present). (It's possible that the context that -enum- describes, 
> MMS/Internet gateways, is different from the one -enum- describes. 
> But the -enum- doc is not clear to me on this.)

My understanding is that 23.140/26.140 and the 3GPP2 counterparts in 
X.S0016 specify how mms messages are carried over SMTP within mms 
systems, and the lemonade mms mapping document specifies how to 
gateway between mms systems and Internet mail systems.  The key 
difference is that within mms systems, much information is carried in 
x-mms-* headers, while in Internet mail this information is carried 
in standard headers or envelope parameters.


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
> This is not to say that programming in, say, C++ takes a
> super human effort.  What I mean is that it makes sense to
> develop tools that lessen the effort and increase the chance
> for success.  C was a step in that direction....

First there was ALGOL... this was a big step in the right
direction, then CPL which was supposed to be practical ALGOL,
was a slight step backwards.  BCPL which was Basic CPL was
another step backwards.  Then came B, a big step backwards (it
took the Basic and dropped the CPL), and C was a small step
forwards over this.  I think in all this C had by the time it
came around lost the plot.

The plot that it really found, which was more by accident than
intention was cross platform development, but that would have
been in ALGOL anyway.  C did not prove that OSs could be
written in HLLs: that belonged already to ALGOL on the B5000
(~1964), and this OS survives today as still much better,
fully featured and robust than Unix or any other OS for that
matter.

As C.A.R Hoare said, Algol was a great improvement on most of
its successors.

  --from Usenet post by Ian Joyner,
    <http://www.mri.mq.edu.au/people/ian.html>

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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:18:21 -0800
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
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On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Randall Gellens wrote:
> So I'd suggest going with #1 ("hold-for" and "hold-until").

For what it's worth, I agree with this suggestion.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Folks,

The proceedings are now available in real-time on the following local
server:
https://onsite.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=3D64

I have uploaded the LEMONADE chairs slides.

Cheers,
Glenn.

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The proceedings are now available in =
real-time on the following local server:</FONT>

<BR><A =
HREF=3D"https://onsite.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=3D=
64"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">https://onsite.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeti=
ng_num=3D64</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have uploaded the LEMONADE chairs =
slides.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn.</FONT>
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To: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Profile WG last call
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Ok, I've addressed all editorial changes listed below.

Randall Gellens wrote:

> (2) Editorial: In
>         The advent of client/server email using the [RFC3501], 
> [RFC2821] and
>    [RFC2476] protocols has changed what formerly were local disk
>    operations to become excessive and repetitive network data
>    transmissions. 
> Delete "excessive".

> (3) Editorial: In
>         Lemonade "forward without download" has the advantage of 
> maintaining
>    one submission protocol, and thus avoids the risk of having multiple
>    parallel and possible divergent mechanisms for submission. The
> I think "possible" should be "possibly".

> (5) In "assembling them. [UIDPLUS] IMAP extension is used by the 
> client in ", add "The" before "[UIDPLUS]".

> (6) In example on page 6, "of the semantics and steps) - this allows 
> the MUA to create", you want a dash, not a hyphen, and this is 
> generally represented in ASCII as two hyphens, so make it "of the 
> semantics and steps) -- this allows the MUA to create".

> (7) Same example on page 6, "messages on the IMAP using new data 
> combined with one or more", add "server" after "IMAP".

> (8) Same example on page 6, "message part already present on the IMAP 
> server. ", change "part" to "parts".

> (9) Same comment as (6), but on page 7: "[BURL] for details of the 
> semantics and steps - this allows the MUA " should be "[BURL] for 
> details of the semantics and steps -- this allows the MUA ".

> (12) In 4. Quick resynchronization, change "has occurred" to "have 
> occurred".

> (14) in 8.2 TLS, change "When LEMONADE clients uses the BURL extension 
> to mail Submission" to "When LEMONADE clients use the BURL extension 
> to mail submission" (make "use" agree with "clients" and don't 
> capitalize "submission").

> (15)  Also in 8.2, change "LEMONADE Compliant mail submission server 
> SHOULD use TLS protected" to "LEMONADE compliant mail submission 
> servers SHOULD use TLS protected" (don't capitalize "compliant", and 
> make "server" plural).

> (16) Also in 8.2, in:
>         When a client uses SMTP STARTTLS to send a BURL command which
>    references non-public information there is a user expectation that
>    the entire message content will be treated confidentially.  To
>    address this expectation, the message submission server should use
>    STARTTLS or a mechanism providing equivalent data confidentiality
>    when fetching the content referenced by that URL.
>
> (a) add a comma after "references non-public information"
>
> (b) change "address" to "meet".




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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 07 19:17:19 2005
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Can we keep BINARY in Profile 1?  To do that requires text or fixes to
BINARY to explain interaction with S/MIME, or to say, "don't bother
trying to do BINARY APPEND."

Please respond by 11/28.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 07 19:44:44 2005
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:19:34 -0800
To: lemonade@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question 2:  how to change the extension 
 framework
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Sorry about replying to an old thread.  Now that -03 has been 
published and went with the (IMHO) uglier syntax, the ABNF for it 
looks odd:

       Using ABNF [n2], the syntax of this parameter is as follows:

          future-release-interval = future-release-integer

          future-release-date-time = Internet-style-date-time-UTC

          hold-type = "for" / "until"

          hold-info = future-release-interval / future-release-date-time

          hold-param = "HOLD=" (("for;" future-release-interval) /
                                ("until;" future-release-date-time))

       The absence of this parameter on the MAIL command does not imply a
       default value for this parameter.

       NOTE:  The ABNF for hold-param contains expanded alternatives
       because of a deficiency in ABNF;  there is no way to indicate
      described in the text.  If we could, then the resulting ABNF for
       hold-param would be:

       hold-param = "HOLD=" hold-type ";" hold-info


It looks to me like the wording in the NOTE is missing a line.

But how about making the ABNF:

	hold-param	=	"HOLD=" hold-for / hold-until
	hold-for		= 	"for;" future-release-interval
	hold-until		=	"until;" future-release-date-time
	future-release-interval = future-release-integer
	future-release-date-time = Internet-style-date-time-UTC

This would cleanly show that you can use one form or the other.

Although I still think using "HOLD-FOR" and "HOLD-UNTIL" followed 
immediately by the value would be cleaner than using "HOLD" and then 
having an extra hold-type and semicolon before the value.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Premature optimization is the root of all evil
                              --C. A. R. Hoare

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 07 19:44:55 2005
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Requirement 4.1.1.2 seems a bit silly to me:

  4.1.1 SMTP client behavior

    2) An SMTP client wishing to use Future Message Release MUST include
       a hold-param with the MAIL command.

It might be better to either delete this, or restate it as 
descriptive ("a client wishing to use future message release does so 
by including a hold-param with the MAIL FROM command").

In 4.1.1.4, perhaps "earlier than or equal to" instead of "less than 
or equal to"?

I'm unclear as to what "wishing" means in 4.1.2 (1) through (3).  It 
may be better to delete this, and just say "supporting".  For 
4.1.2.2., I'd rather see a stronger statement: "An MSA MUST NOT 
include FUTURRELEASE in its EHLO reply on any port other than the 
submission port."

Do we need 4.1.1.7 and 4.1.1.8?  I don't see an interop requirement 
here.  If we really do need these, it might be cleaner to word these 
as "MUST reject a MAIL command which contains the xxx option 
specifying a value which exceeds the advertised max-xxxx value." 
(replacing 'xxx' with 'for' and 'until', and 'max-xxxx' with 
'max-future-release-interval' and 'max-future-release-date-time').



-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
razbliuto (ros-blee-OO-toe; Russian; noun): the feeling a person
retains for someone he or she once loved.

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Subject: Re: [lemonade] BINARY in Profile 1
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On Tue Nov  8 00:17:10 2005, Burger, Eric wrote:
> Can we keep BINARY in Profile 1?  To do that requires text or fixes 
> to
> BINARY to explain interaction with S/MIME

Last time I exchanged emails with Lyndon about BINARY (concerning its 
lack of interction with LITERL+), he sais he was going to do an 
update at some point. If he doesn't, then I think one of us should.

> , or to say, "don't bother
> trying to do BINARY APPEND."
> 
> 
No, we can't do that, because an IMAP client which actually 
implements BINARY will still be trying to upload messages and message 
parts using BINARY, and may be forced into resending the command, or 
worse, the content, when faced with a server which responds with 
UNKNOWN-CTE.

One of the potential solutions is to define a new extension which is 
a download-only version of BINARY - that it, it supports the BINARY 
FETCH item, but not the use of BINARY/literal8 with APPEND.

Either way, deploying BINARY in Profile 1 needs a new draft.

Dave.
-- 
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   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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Note that the Wednesday 9am PT meeting will be in SALON F, not the venue
originally advertised.

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Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:19:05 -0800
From: Chris Newman <Chris.Newman@Sun.COM>
To: Lemonade WG <lemonade@ietf.org>, Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>,
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Subject: [lemonade] proposed text to resolve IESG discuss comments
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Here is my proposed update to the text at the end of section 3.3 of BURL to 
address Sam's IESG review comments and Mark's related comments on this mailing 
list.

----
   When the submit server connects to the IMAP server, it is acting as
   an IMAP client and thus is subject to the mandatory-to-implement IMAP
   capabilities in section 6.1.1 of RFC 3501 as well as the security
   considerations in section 11 of RFC 3501.  Specifically, this means
   that the submit server needs to implement a configuration where it
   uses STARTTLS followed by SASL PLAIN [I-D.ietf-sasl-plain] to
   authenticate to the IMAP server in order to comply with the IMAP base
   specification.

   When the submit server is resolving a URLAUTH IMAP URL, it will use
   submit credentials when authenticating to the IMAP server.  The
   authentication id and password used for submit credentials MUST be
   configurable.  The string "submit" is suggested as a default value
   for the authentication id with no default for the password.  The SASL
   authorization id is typically empty so the IMAP server will derive
   the authorization id from the authentication id.

   When resolving a regular IMAP URL and both the submit client and
   submit server's embedded IMAP client are using STARTTLS with SASL
   PLAIN (or the equivalent), the submit server SHOULD cache and replay
   the client's credentials if and only if the submit server knows the
   IMAP server is in the same administrative domain.  If the submit
   server supports other SASL mechanisms, it MUST implement a
   configuration where the submit server's embedded IMAP client uses
   STARTTLS and SASL PLAIN with the submit server's authentication id
   and password (for the respective IMAP server) and the submit client's
   authorization id.
----

Is this acceptable, Sam?  Mark?

As soon as I get confirmation, I'll send in the -04 draft revision.

                - Chris


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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question 2:  how to change the extension  
 framework
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Oops, ABNF typo.  Corrected below.

At 4:19 PM -0800 11/7/05, I wrote:

>  It looks to me like the wording in the NOTE is missing a line.
>
>  But how about making the ABNF:
>
>  	hold-param	=	"HOLD=" hold-for / hold-until

	hold-param	=	"HOLD=" ( hold-for / hold-until )

>  	hold-for		=	"for;" future-release-interval
>  	hold-until		=	"until;" future-release-date-time
>  	future-release-interval = future-release-integer
>  	future-release-date-time = Internet-style-date-time-UTC
>
>  This would cleanly show that you can use one form or the other.
>
>  Although I still think using "HOLD-FOR" and "HOLD-UNTIL" followed 
> immediately by the value would be cleaner than using "HOLD" and 
> then having an extra hold-type and semicolon before the value.


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness.
                                                         --Beckett

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This new text is excellent.

Thanks so much.


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 09 13:39:45 2005
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There is a proposal to make draft-newman-lemonade-msgevent a work group
item.

It is complementary to the other notification work, looks like it will
be required, and we will ensure it addresses the OMA notification events
at a minimum.

Any objection?

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vote++  Anil

On 2005-11-09/13:39 [-0500], eburger@brooktrout.com [Burger, Eric] wrote:

> There is a proposal to make draft-newman-lemonade-msgevent a work group
> item.
> 
> It is complementary to the other notification work, looks like it will
> be required, and we will ensure it addresses the OMA notification events
> at a minimum.
> 
> Any objection?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> 

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 09 13:58:05 2005
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Consensus in the room at IETF 64 is clear to make
draft-maes-lemonade-notifications-server-to-client-01 a work group item.

Discussion?

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There was a lot of discussion in the lemonade session at IETF 64 around
the issues with replying to or editing a big list of destinations.

A whole bunch of people thought the problem (a) is not real, (b) will go
away shortly, or (c) encourages stupid use of addresses over creating
lists.

How do we want to proceed?

1. Punt; try to convince OMA the requirement is not useful.

2. Take up the work item

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The slides this morning mentioned Stephane Maes' draft on doing
compression within IMAP: draft-maes-lemonade-lzip-02.txt.

There is an alternative draft on doing compression within IMAP: Arnt
Gulbrandsen's draft-gulbrandsen-imap-deflate-01.txt. He put out -00 a
few years ago and recently reissued it for -01.

Comparing the two, I think that Arnt's method is much simpler and
preferable.

	Tony Hansen
	tony@att.com

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On Wed Nov  9 19:31:03 2005, Burger, Eric wrote:
> There was a lot of discussion in the lemonade session at IETF 64=20
> around
> the issues with replying to or editing a big list of destinations.
>=20
> A whole bunch of people thought the problem (a) is not real, (b)=20
> will go
> away shortly, or (c) encourages stupid use of addresses over=20
> creating
> lists.
>=20
> How do we want to proceed?

Ted (I think) mentioned that trying to use technical limitations to=20
people doing things which are, in our considered opinion, stupid, is=20
not a good thing to do.

I'm inclined to agree. I think huge address lists in the headers are=20
silly, too, but people do them, and the OMA wants a solution.

Since I've a small test implementation of a Lemonade submission=20
server, I'll try implementing a couple of ideas and see whether they=20
work in practise, and what the saving actually seems to be.

FWIW, my suggestion is (copied from a private mail to Alexey and=20
St=E9phane some time ago):

First problem: Header rewriting.

For this, it makes most sense to define a new pseudo-section, with=20
the following syntax (or similar):

section-spec =3D/ section-addresses
section-addresses =3D "ADDRESS" SP "(" address-type *( SP address-type=20
) ")" [ SP sequence-set ]
address-type =3D "ALL" / "FROM" / "TO" / "CC" / "BCC" / "REPLYTO"
	; My ABNF is probably wrong.

Where the sequence set element denotes which addresses, in the order=20
they appear in the
message. This evaluates to a list of addresses as they'd appear in a=20
header.

Then URLs work, and we're done. It's an utter waste having it=20
supported in FETCH BODY[...] as well, but it makes the URL spec=20
easier, and it might prove useful.

We have to specify that long lists MUST be folded if required to fit=20
inside the 1000 octet line limit of MIME.

By the way, this looks *really* ugly in URL encoded form.

Second problem: ESMTP RCPT TO:

Perhaps a new command which extracts the recipient addresses from a=20
URL?

In any case, this represents two extensions, one to Submission and=20
one to IMAP.

Dave.
--=20
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Dave Cridland wrote:
> Ted (I think) mentioned that trying to use technical limitations to people 
> doing things which are, in our considered opinion, stupid, is not a good 
> thing to do.

FWIW, it was Dave Crocker.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Dave Cridland wrote:
> For this, it makes most sense to define a new pseudo-section

Instead of inventing yet another representation, why not a means to access 
ENVELOPE or portion thereof?

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: "Tony Hansen" <tony@att.com>, "lemonade@ietf.org" <lemonade@ietf.org>
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I'll have a look at it. Where can I find a copy?

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Tony Hansen
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:38 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] compression

The slides this morning mentioned Stephane Maes' draft on doing
compression within IMAP: draft-maes-lemonade-lzip-02.txt.

There is an alternative draft on doing compression within IMAP: Arnt
Gulbrandsen's draft-gulbrandsen-imap-deflate-01.txt. He put out -00 a
few years ago and recently reissued it for -01.

Comparing the two, I think that Arnt's method is much simpler and
preferable.

	Tony Hansen
	tony@att.com

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 09 17:28:57 2005
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To: "Burger, Eric" <eburger@brooktrout.com>, "lemonade@ietf.org"
	<lemonade@ietf.org>
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I would like to still investigate the different options. =


_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Burger, Eric
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:31 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list

There was a lot of discussion in the lemonade session at IETF 64 around
the issues with replying to or editing a big list of destinations.

A whole bunch of people thought the problem (a) is not real, (b) will go
away shortly, or (c) encourages stupid use of addresses over creating
lists.

How do we want to proceed?

1. Punt; try to convince OMA the requirement is not useful.

2. Take up the work item

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On Wed Nov  9 21:08:27 2005, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Dave Cridland wrote:
>> For this, it makes most sense to define a new pseudo-section
> 
> Instead of inventing yet another representation, why not a means to 
> access ENVELOPE or portion thereof?

I was thinking that it made it easier to work into URLAUTH, and 
specifying the formatting as suitable for a header, it would make it 
easier to use it with CATENATE/BURL. Note that this isn't a "new 
representation", per se, but a reuse of an existing one.

Since the RCPT TO aspect to the problem requires a new verb anyway, I 
ignored the formatting issue there, and assumed that in practise, the 
URL would "resolve" to an abstract concept.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gulbrandsen-imap-deflate-01.txt

Anil

On 2005-11-09/14:22 [-0800], stephane.maes@oracle.com [Stephane H. Maes] wrote:

> I'll have a look at it. Where can I find a copy?
> 
> Stephane
> 
> _____
> Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
> Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
> Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
> e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
> IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tony Hansen
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:38 AM
> To: lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: [lemonade] compression
> 
> The slides this morning mentioned Stephane Maes' draft on doing
> compression within IMAP: draft-maes-lemonade-lzip-02.txt.
> 
> There is an alternative draft on doing compression within IMAP: Arnt
> Gulbrandsen's draft-gulbrandsen-imap-deflate-01.txt. He put out -00 a
> few years ago and recently reissued it for -01.
> 
> Comparing the two, I think that Arnt's method is much simpler and
> preferable.
> 
> 	Tony Hansen
> 	tony@att.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> 

-- 
_______________
Anil SRIVASTAVA
anil.srivastava@Sun.COM

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 09 19:05:11 2005
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On Wed Nov  9 21:00:15 2005, Dave Cridland wrote:
> Since I've a small test implementation of a Lemonade submission 
> server, I'll try implementing a couple of ideas and see whether 
> they work in practise, and what the saving actually seems to be.
> 
> 
Okay, done in the server, although I need to do it in the client as 
well in order to test properly.

I decided to use the order of the addresses in the ENVELOPE (because 
it was easier at the time), and expanded section-addresses to include 
SENDER.

ALL expands to FROM SENDER REPLYTO TO CC BCC - the order in the 
Envelope.

I can't change the IMAP server, so I'm intercepting the requests as 
they pass through the API, and I have no URLAUTH support anyway, 
which is the only point at which I'd need support in the IMAP server.

For ESMTP, I've added a verb AURL, which does for RCPT TO what BURL 
does for BDAT. This currently fails on the first address it doesn't 
accept, which I don't like. It has a EHLO keyword of AURL, which 
operates the same way as BURL.

Should anyone want an account on the submit server to play with, and 
a corresponding account on the trusted IMAP server (it also supports 
BURL, BDAT, BINARYMIME, CHUNKING, etc) feel free to drop me a line.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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At 1:39 PM -0500 11/9/05, Eric Burger wrote:

>  There is a proposal to make draft-newman-lemonade-msgevent a work group
>  item.
>
>  It is complementary to the other notification work, looks like it will
>  be required, and we will ensure it addresses the OMA notification events
>  at a minimum.
>
>  Any objection?

I think it is a good idea.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness.
                                                         --Beckett

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+1

On Nov 9, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Burger, Eric wrote:

> There is a proposal to make draft-newman-lemonade-msgevent a work group
> item.
>
> It is complementary to the other notification work, looks like it will
> be required, and we will ensure it addresses the OMA notification 
> events
> at a minimum.
>
> Any objection?
>
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Server to Client format
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At 1:57 PM -0500 11/9/05, Eric Burger wrote:

>  Consensus in the room at IETF 64 is clear to make
>  draft-maes-lemonade-notifications-server-to-client-01 a work group item.
>
>  Discussion?

There is a lot in that document aside from format of server-to-client 
notifications.  Do we want to (a) make this document a wg document, 
or (b) have a wg item for the format of s-to-c notifications?
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
yoin (yoh-EEN; Japanese; noun): experiential reverberation that
continues to move one long after the initial external stimulus
has ceased.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 09 22:07:41 2005
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From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
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I'd like to better understand the problem.

SMTP requires that servers support at least 100 recipients per 
message.  In the envelope, the phrase is not present, so the number 
of octets in each address is fairly limited.  In the text, the phrase 
can be present, so each address can be a bit longer.  In SMTP, the 
local part is limited to 64 octets, the domain 255, so 319.  In 
practice, actual addresses tend to be *much* shorter, since they are 
printed on business cards, memorized by people, etc.  I'd guess that 
it would be unusual to see addresses longer than 30 characters or so, 
but of course I could be mistaken.

So, for the envelope portion, 100 addresses can be a theoretical 
maximum of 31,900 octets, plus of course "RCPT TO:<" and ">CRLF" for 
each (an extra 12 octets per address), so a grand total of 33,100 
octets.  At 30 octets per address, plus the 12 octets of protocol, 
we'd have a maximum of 4,200 for the 100 recipients.

Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging. 
Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when creating 
a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit server?

2822 forms can be lengthy (I'm not sure 2822 imposes any specific 
limit, other than the 998 octet limit on each line).  But still, are 
they that long in practice?

What I'm asking is: (1) How many octets are being sent now, and by 
how much are we trying to reduce this?  (2) What specific tasks are 
asking which entities to perform?
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
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up in the morning, and does not stop until you get to work.
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On Thu Nov 10 03:06:27 2005, Randall Gellens wrote:
> I'd guess that it would be unusual to see addresses longer than 30 
> characters or so, but of course I could be mistaken.
> 
> 
Over the 5773 addresses my client has captured (on read) to my 
capture addressbook, I see an average of 22.4 octets, a min of 7, and 
a max of 73.

> So, for the envelope portion, 100 addresses can be a theoretical 
> maximum of 31,900 octets, plus of course "RCPT TO:<" and ">CRLF" 
> for each (an extra 12 octets per address), so a grand total of 
> 33,100 octets.  At 30 octets per address, plus the 12 octets of 
> protocol, we'd have a maximum of 4,200 for the 100 recipients.
> 
> 
You're missing out the extra data coming back in the other direction, 
but yes.


> Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging. 
> Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when 
> creating a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit 
> server?
> 
> 
This would probably fall out of any design we come up with to solve 
this issue - if we do.


> 2822 forms can be lengthy (I'm not sure 2822 imposes any specific 
> limit, other than the 998 octet limit on each line).  But still, 
> are they that long in practice?
> 
> 
I'll write a program to analyze the phrase lengths as well.

> What I'm asking is: (1) How many octets are being sent now, and by 
> how much are we trying to reduce this?  (2) What specific tasks are 
> asking which entities to perform?

The other issue is how much complexity are we introducing by 
attempting to solve it. On the server side, it's not too bad at all. 
I'm fully expecting the client side to be a nightmare, though.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:39:46 -0800
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From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
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At 9:10 AM +0000 11/10/05, Dave Cridland wrote:

>>  What I'm asking is: (1) How many octets are being sent now, and by 
>> how much are we trying to reduce this?  (2) What specific tasks 
>> are asking which entities to perform?
>
>  The other issue is how much complexity are we introducing by 
> attempting to solve it. On the server side, it's not too bad at 
> all. I'm fully expecting the client side to be a nightmare, though.

I was trying to get to your questions by starting with mine.  Once we 
know the current cost and the expected reduction, we will be in a 
better position to evaluate if the complexity cost is greater than 
the octet savings.

In reply to an earlier thread on the same topic: I'm not sure we are 
trying to prohibit by technology users doing "something stupid", 
because I don't think we're trying to prohibit the use of lots of 
addresses.  We're trying to see if an expressed desire to reduce the 
bandwidth usage of using lots of addresses is worth the cost.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors.

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: "lemonade@ietf.org" <lemonade@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:43:14 -0800
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Note the issue at hand is about editing and sending diff on any body part. =
The use case given and initially used by OMA is about long lists. But I do =
not believe that simply characterizing this as of little interest address t=
he broader issue behind the expectation for this.

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Burger, Eric
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:31 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list

There was a lot of discussion in the lemonade session at IETF 64 around
the issues with replying to or editing a big list of destinations.

A whole bunch of people thought the problem (a) is not real, (b) will go
away shortly, or (c) encourages stupid use of addresses over creating
lists.

How do we want to proceed?

1. Punt; try to convince OMA the requirement is not useful.

2. Take up the work item

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> Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging. 
> Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when creating 
> a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit server?

I wasn't in London, but I'm sure that this is what OMA has in mind.

Having downloaded the To and Cc lines of the message to the device,
they don't want to upload them again (plus having them duplicated,
in some sense, in the SMTP envelope). So they envisage a server-side
Reply-All and for good measure they have thrown in the kitchen-sink
ability to edit this list. I'm not sure that the editing is worthwhile,
but I can see the validity of building the address list on the server.

I note in passing that pulling the To and Cc lines out of the message
in the store also finesses the Bcc problem of storing the SMTP envelope
contents.

Jonathan Clark
Solutions Architect
Mirapoint Inc
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 10 15:29:05 2005
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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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On Thu Nov 10 03:06:27 2005, Randall Gellens wrote:
> So, for the envelope portion, 100 addresses can be a theoretical 
> maximum of 31,900 octets, plus of course "RCPT TO:<" and ">CRLF" 
> for each (an extra 12 octets per address), so a grand total of 
> 33,100 octets.  At 30 octets per address, plus the 12 octets of 
> protocol, we'd have a maximum of 4,200 for the 100 recipients.
> 
> 
Okay. I'm reasonably confident that your 30 octets is too high. The 
average seems to be around 22, so this figure drops to 34 octets 
typically per SMTP command, hence 3400 octets.

What I'm not so sure about is the responses - even assuming the 
entire recipient list is sent in a single pipeline, I suspect each 
response will be sent in a distinct packet in most cases. That in 
itself is probably not a problem, but what concerns me here is that 
this may incur a noticeable cost in terms of ACKs - I'm not terribly 
clear on whether each TCP packet would cause a seperate ACK.

For the header, a 100 address CC looks like it would take up 4198 
octets - the average length of a header (including MIME usage, etc) 
based on my capture addressbook appears to be 40 octets, plus a ", " 
between each one. For comparison, a CATENATE URL using my (probably 
awful) proposal takes around 93 octets:

/INBOX;UIDVALIDITY=1077560755/;uid=29808;section=address%20(from%20to%20cc)%201%3A78%2C80%3A*

The saving in bandwidth is quite straightforward there.

> Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging. 
> Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when 
> creating a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit 
> server?
> 
> 
If we wanted to move that task, then moving the task of creating the 
In-Reply-To and References headers would also be targets, suggesting 
that both CATENATE and BURL require methods to generate the required 
headers. Unfortunately, the majority of clients still don't generate 
these headers correctly.


> 2822 forms can be lengthy (I'm not sure 2822 imposes any specific 
> limit, other than the 998 octet limit on each line).  But still, 
> are they that long in practice?
> 
> 
By the statistics I have to hand, 40.0 octets. (Minimum 18, maximum 
149 - since this includes this list, using the phrase part extracted 
from the List-Id header, I imagine that's the 149.)

> (1) How many octets are being sent now, and by how much are we 
> trying to reduce this? 

I hope this is beginning to answer that question. Loosely, we're 
looking at savings for headers containing more than 3 addresses, and 
for SMTP envelopes containing more than 4.

>  (2) What specific tasks are asking which entities to perform?

This question I'm really not sure I can answer.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> writes:
>What I'm not so sure about is the responses - even assuming the 
>entire recipient list is sent in a single pipeline, I suspect each 
>response will be sent in a distinct packet in most cases.

If the RCPT commands are pipelined, I would expect the responses to be
pipelined back.  I know that both the sendmail MTA and our LMTP server
will do so.  I just traced pipelining multiple RCPTs and there were
three packets: the RCPTs in one, the ACK for that packet with the
responses in another, and then the ACK for that in a third.


>That in 
>itself is probably not a problem, but what concerns me here is that 
>this may incur a noticeable cost in terms of ACKs - I'm not terribly 
>clear on whether each TCP packet would cause a seperate ACK.

As a rule of thumb, in a one-way flow, every other packet will generate
an ACK.


Philip Guenther

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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list 
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On Thu Nov 10 21:08:17 2005, Philip Guenther wrote:
> Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> writes:
> >What I'm not so sure about is the responses - even assuming the 
> >entire recipient list is sent in a single pipeline, I suspect each 
> >response will be sent in a distinct packet in most cases.
> 
> If the RCPT commands are pipelined, I would expect the responses to 
> be
> pipelined back.  I know that both the sendmail MTA and our LMTP 
> server
> will do so.  I just traced pipelining multiple RCPTs and there were
> three packets: the RCPTs in one, the ACK for that packet with the
> responses in another, and then the ACK for that in a third.
> 
> 
Thanks. So that would suggest there would be the same number of 
transmissions from the mobile device's radio whether we use a single 
URL based RCPT replacement, or a bunch of RCPTs, or a pipelined 
mixture.



> >That in >itself is probably not a problem, but what concerns me 
> here is that >this may incur a noticeable cost in terms of ACKs - 
> I'm not terribly >clear on whether each TCP packet would cause a 
> seperate ACK.
> 
> As a rule of thumb, in a one-way flow, every other packet will 
> generate
> an ACK.
> 
> 
Again, thanks.

I'm working on the assumption - a possibly non-intelligent guess - 
that in terms of battery usage, there's a certain overhead to 
performing any transmission with a mobile device, hence the battery 
cost may tend toward per-packet rather than per-octet. I'd like some 
input on this, if possible.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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> On Thu Nov 10 03:06:27 2005, Randall Gellens wrote:
> > So, for the envelope portion, 100 addresses can be a theoretical
> > maximum of 31,900 octets, plus of course "RCPT TO:<" and ">CRLF"
> > for each (an extra 12 octets per address), so a grand total of
> > 33,100 octets.  At 30 octets per address, plus the 12 octets of
> > protocol, we'd have a maximum of 4,200 for the 100 recipients.
> >
> >
> Okay. I'm reasonably confident that your 30 octets is too high. The
> average seems to be around 22, so this figure drops to 34 octets
> typically per SMTP command, hence 3400 octets.

> What I'm not so sure about is the responses - even assuming the
> entire recipient list is sent in a single pipeline, I suspect each
> response will be sent in a distinct packet in most cases.

Why would you assume this? RFC 2920 explicitly discusses when a server can or
cannot buffer responses to commands. It doesn't require support for it (because
we wanted pipelining to work without forcing reasonable servers to change in
any way) but all the necessary information is there to tell imeplemtnros what
to do.

Most TCP stacks offer some control over when packets are or are not sent (e.g.,
the push bit) and it is hardly rocket science to check to see if there are
still commands in the input buffer and set the bit accordingly. (Local
buffering is also an option, of course. Our implementation uses both.)

Anyone who cares about latency issues implements server side pipelining. It is
actually considerably easier to implement than the client side, where
error handling is somewhat tricky.

If this really is important we can always specify that it needs to be
done as part of the lemonade SMTP profile.

> That in
> itself is probably not a problem, but what concerns me here is that
> this may incur a noticeable cost in terms of ACKs - I'm not terribly
> clear on whether each TCP packet would cause a seperate ACK.

I believe it depends on whether or not various optional TCP features can be
used. Given the quality issues I've seen in the mobile space I wouldn't assume
they're available.

> For the header, a 100 address CC looks like it would take up 4198
> octets - the average length of a header (including MIME usage, etc)
> based on my capture addressbook appears to be 40 octets, plus a ", "
> between each one. For comparison, a CATENATE URL using my (probably
> awful) proposal takes around 93 octets:

> /INBOX;UIDVALIDITY=1077560755/;uid=29808;section=address%20(from%20to%20cc)%201%3A78%2C80%3A*

> The saving in bandwidth is quite straightforward there.

The cost in terms of user astonishment may be large, however. The effect these
sorts of tricks have is to make it impossible for the SMTP server to report
per-recipient addressing errors to the client. The server has to fall back on
DSNs. I am very skeptical that mobile clients as a rule have high-quality
handling of DSNs.

And since not a day goes by that I don't get legitimate mail with bogus
addresses in the header (which then fail if I do a reply-all), I think this is
a fairly significant issue.

> > Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging.
> > Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when
> > creating a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit
> > server?

> If we wanted to move that task, then moving the task of creating the
> In-Reply-To and References headers would also be targets, suggesting
> that both CATENATE and BURL require methods to generate the required
> headers. Unfortunately, the majority of clients still don't generate
> these headers correctly.

> > 2822 forms can be lengthy (I'm not sure 2822 imposes any specific
> > limit, other than the 998 octet limit on each line).  But still,
> > are they that long in practice?

FWIW, I've seen legitimate 10Mb headers in the wild listing tens of thousands
of addresses. (Once upon a time we have a parse stack overflow issue with such
headers, which is what broght them to my attention.) There used to be cases
where there was a legal requirement that all recipients of a message be listed
in every copy. I don't know if such cases still exist, but that was what
motivated the very large ones I've seen in the past.

> By the statistics I have to hand, 40.0 octets. (Minimum 18, maximum
> 149 - since this includes this list, using the phrase part extracted
> from the List-Id header, I imagine that's the 149.)

> > (1) How many octets are being sent now, and by how much are we
> > trying to reduce this?

> I hope this is beginning to answer that question. Loosely, we're
> looking at savings for headers containing more than 3 addresses, and
> for SMTP envelopes containing more than 4.

I think the real question is whether or not clients will actually take
advantage of this if we specify it. The server side is, as you say, not
terribly difficult given that most servers already have the necessary code to
break down headers available. But for the forseeable future clients won't be
able to be sure that the extension is available, which means lots of duplicate
code paths. I don't write mobile clients myself so I really cannot say how much
code you can reasonably cram onto them.

				Ned

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
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Subject: RE: Re[2]: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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Jonathan,

Having been involved in that OMA phase I can confirm that you are correct.

However as I pointed out this was just one of the use case. Desire is to co=
ver diff updates of any body parts.

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Jonathan Clark
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:58 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re[2]: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list

> Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging.
> Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when creating
> a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit server?

I wasn't in London, but I'm sure that this is what OMA has in mind.

Having downloaded the To and Cc lines of the message to the device,
they don't want to upload them again (plus having them duplicated,
in some sense, in the SMTP envelope). So they envisage a server-side
Reply-All and for good measure they have thrown in the kitchen-sink
ability to edit this list. I'm not sure that the editing is worthwhile,
but I can see the validity of building the address list on the server.

I note in passing that pulling the To and Cc lines out of the message
in the store also finesses the Bcc problem of storing the SMTP envelope
contents.

Jonathan Clark
Solutions Architect
Mirapoint Inc
--


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At 10:43 AM -0800 11/10/05, Stephane H. Maes wrote:

>  Note the issue at hand is about editing and sending diff on any 
> body part. The use case given and initially used by OMA is about 
> long lists. But I do not believe that simply characterizing this as 
> of little interest address the broader issue behind the expectation 
> for this.

Body parts and envelope addresses are two very different issues.
-- 
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At 8:28 PM +0000 11/10/05, Dave Cridland wrote:

>  For the header, a 100 address CC looks like it would take up 4198 
> octets - the average length of a header (including MIME usage, etc) 
> based on my capture addressbook appears to be 40 octets, plus a ", 
> " between each one. For comparison, a CATENATE URL using my 
> (probably awful) proposal takes around 93 octets:
>
> 
> /INBOX;UIDVALIDITY=1077560755/;uid=29808;section=address%20(from%20to%20cc)%201%3A78%2C80%3A*
>
>  The saving in bandwidth is quite straightforward there.

This makes the question more clear, thanks: is the new protocol 
complexity worth cutting 4198 octets per worst-case message down to 
93?

Personally, since adding byte ranges to the URL helps in other areas, 
so there is very little incremental cost, I'd be inclined to say yes.

Note that we're only talking about the text here, not the envelope.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:38:31 -0800
To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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At 1:35 PM -0800 11/10/05, Ned Freed wrote:

>  FWIW, I've seen legitimate 10Mb headers in the wild listing tens of thousands
>  of addresses. (Once upon a time we have a parse stack overflow 
> issue with such
>  headers, which is what broght them to my attention.) There used to be cases
>  where there was a legal requirement that all recipients of a 
> message be listed
>  in every copy. I don't know if such cases still exist, but that was what
>  motivated the very large ones I've seen in the past.

Since many servers now reject messages that have a large number of 
addresses (in the belief that this reduces spam), I'd suspect that 
this is less common than it may have once been.  I'd also guess this 
would tend to be less common on mobile devices, but I could easily be 
wrong here.

>  I think the real question is whether or not clients will actually take
>  advantage of this if we specify it. The server side is, as you say, not
>  terribly difficult given that most servers already have the necessary code to
>  break down headers available. But for the forseeable future clients won't be
>  able to be sure that the extension is available, which means lots 
> of duplicate
>  code paths. I don't write mobile clients myself so I really cannot 
> say how much
>  code you can reasonably cram onto them.

One of the goals for lemonade is to reduce the need for mobile 
clients to support alternative code paths.  By stamping a set of 
extensions as mandated by lemonade, mobile clients can be written to 
only support lemonade-compliant servers.  Of course, a primary goal 
is to see widespread deployment of the lemonade-mandated extensions, 
and including little-used ones in that set hurts this.  So we should 
only add things that really help clients and that both clients and 
servers are likely to implement.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Everyone knows that dragons don't exist.  But while this simplistic
formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not suffice for the
scientific mind.  The School of Higher Neantical Nillity is in fact
wholly unconcerned with what does exist.  Indeed, the banality of
existence has been so amply demonstrated, there is no need for us to
discuss it any further here.  The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the
problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the
mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical.  They were all,
one might say, nonexistent, but each nonexisted in an entirely
different way......

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:16:39 -0800
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Agreed but that is the generic requirements from OMA.
S.

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Randall Gellens
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:06 PM
To: stephane.maes@oracle.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list

At 10:43 AM -0800 11/10/05, Stephane H. Maes wrote:

>  Note the issue at hand is about editing and sending diff on any
> body part. The use case given and initially used by OMA is about
> long lists. But I do not believe that simply characterizing this as
> of little interest address the broader issue behind the expectation
> for this.

Body parts and envelope addresses are two very different issues.
--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armor
to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly
ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology,
led them into it in the first place.                    --Douglas Adams

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 11 00:25:19 2005
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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I would like to ask for clarification.
My understanding is that any part of the message can be replied =
to/forwarded using diff (at least that is the requirement in OMA).
Header is also part of the email message - so why would this be an =
exception?
It is not considered to be part of the email message?
Thanks.

Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh
E-mail: zoltan.ordogh@nokia.com
Phone: +358 50 386 0566


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
Behalf Of ext Burger, Eric
Sent: 09 November, 2005 21:31
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list


There was a lot of discussion in the lemonade session at IETF 64 around
the issues with replying to or editing a big list of destinations.

A whole bunch of people thought the problem (a) is not real, (b) will go
away shortly, or (c) encourages stupid use of addresses over creating
lists.

How do we want to proceed?

1. Punt; try to convince OMA the requirement is not useful.

2. Take up the work item

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To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com
From: Philip Guenther <guenther+lemonade@sendmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list 
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Eric Burger writes:
>There was a lot of discussion in the lemonade session at IETF 64 around
>the issues with replying to or editing a big list of destinations.
>
>A whole bunch of people thought the problem (a) is not real, (b) will go
>away shortly, or (c) encourages stupid use of addresses over creating
>lists.

I'm in the (a) camp, personally.


>How do we want to proceed?
>
>1. Punt; try to convince OMA the requirement is not useful.
>2. Take up the work item

Punt back to OMA: having a long list of rcpts only changes the size
of the packet sent without adding RTTs.

Before we can think of tackling this, I think some sort of estimation
of the number of rcpts involved and their average length would be
necessary, as well as info about critical thresholds of size, if
any.  (What's the MTU or TCP MSS for the sorts of links we're talking
about?)  Only with that info can we judge whether a practical
solution exists.  Yes, yes, we all know that rcpt counts are
increasing, but if this is supposed to be a bandwidth optimization
then we need the info necessary for judging whether a proposal
accomplishes that and does so sufficiently to be worth the complexity
it will introduce.


Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes:
>I would like to ask for clarification.
>My understanding is that any part of the message can be replied
>to/forwarded using diff (at least that is the requirement in OMA).
>Header is also part of the email message - so why would this be an
>exception?
>It is not considered to be part of the email message?

The SMTP envelope (MAIL From, RCPT To) is not part of the email message.


Philip Guenther

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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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On Thu Nov 10 21:35:07 2005, Ned Freed wrote:
>> What I'm not so sure about is the responses - even assuming the
>> entire recipient list is sent in a single pipeline, I suspect each
>> response will be sent in a distinct packet in most cases.
> 
> Why would you assume this?

Because I'm as much of a pessimist about server quality as the server 
implementors are about client quality?


> The cost in terms of user astonishment may be large, however. The 
> effect these
> sorts of tricks have is to make it impossible for the SMTP server 
> to report
> per-recipient addressing errors to the client. The server has to 
> fall back on
> DSNs. I am very skeptical that mobile clients as a rule have 
> high-quality
> handling of DSNs.
> 
> And since not a day goes by that I don't get legitimate mail with 
> bogus
> addresses in the header (which then fail if I do a reply-all), I 
> think this is
> a fairly significant issue.
> 
> 
Yes, you'd need to indicate which addresses passed or failed in the 
response to the magic envelope command. The precision of the error 
would be particularly awkward to convey, by which I mean ugly rather 
than difficult.

> I think the real question is whether or not clients will actually 
> take
> advantage of this if we specify it. The server side is, as you say, 
> not
> terribly difficult given that most servers already have the 
> necessary code to
> break down headers available. But for the forseeable future clients 
> won't be
> able to be sure that the extension is available, which means lots 
> of duplicate
> code paths. I don't write mobile clients myself so I really cannot 
> say how much
> code you can reasonably cram onto them.

I'm not actually too fussed about the code path issue. I'm capable of 
writing multiple code paths, and while it's tricky to test, this is 
why I wrote a submission server I could flip the extension support on 
and off for. The much more complex code path to deal with is, in any 
case, the decision on whether to assemble the message over submission 
or IMAP.

What I am aware of is that some clients may choose to always 
implement only one code path (in the example above, always perform 
message assembly over IMAP). I believe I'm close to adequately 
arguing that this particular method for reduce bandwidth in some 
cases is sufficiently rarely going to lead to a saving that either:

a) It will make single-code-path clients less efficient in the 
majority of cases
b) It will make single-code-path clients ignore it.

Personally, I'd have to move various bits of message assembly 
relating to headers all over the place to take advantage of this, so 
I'm not terribly keen to do this unless people really care.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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On Fri Nov 11 05:25:08 2005, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote:
> I would like to ask for clarification.
> My understanding is that any part of the message can be replied 
> to/forwarded using diff (at least that is the requirement in OMA).
> Header is also part of the email message - so why would this be an 
> exception?
> It is not considered to be part of the email message?

Headers are distinct because they convey information to and from the 
messaging system itself, and/or are copies of that messaging data. 
Also, as their semantics and structure are well known to all actors 
within the system, it makes particular sense here *not* to use a 
generic diffing algorithm, but instead, a relatively specific set of 
operations aimed at covering the typical use-cases.

To put it another way, a diff in this instance is simply an example 
of a domain-specific compression codec, and headers are a very 
different domain to the comparitively arbitrary data found in message 
body parts.

It's not considered an exception, it's considered a more precise 
target to aim for.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:11:22 +0100
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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	<27120.1131699519.342111@peirce.dave.cridland.net>
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Dave Cridland writes:
> To put it another way, a diff in this instance is simply an example of 
> a domain-specific compression codec, and headers are a very different 
> domain to the comparitively arbitrary data found in message body 
> parts.

I haven't followed this thread, so I may be saying something everyone 
has rejected long ago... but I do note that if a sender uses the 
following syntax, then the field is diffed easily using the ordinary 
line algorithm, and the reader can still read it using the ordinary RFC 
2822 parser.

address-list    =       (address *("," CR LF SP address))

Arnt

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list
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>> it's considered a more precise
target to aim for. =

Agreed as long as other diffing cases for other parts are also described so=
mewhere.

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - OCS & Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Dave Cridland
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 12:59 AM
To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com
Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list

On Fri Nov 11 05:25:08 2005, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote:
> I would like to ask for clarification.
> My understanding is that any part of the message can be replied
> to/forwarded using diff (at least that is the requirement in OMA).
> Header is also part of the email message - so why would this be an
> exception?
> It is not considered to be part of the email message?

Headers are distinct because they convey information to and from the
messaging system itself, and/or are copies of that messaging data.
Also, as their semantics and structure are well known to all actors
within the system, it makes particular sense here *not* to use a
generic diffing algorithm, but instead, a relatively specific set of
operations aimed at covering the typical use-cases.

To put it another way, a diff in this instance is simply an example
of a domain-specific compression codec, and headers are a very
different domain to the comparitively arbitrary data found in message
body parts.

It's not considered an exception, it's considered a more precise
target to aim for.

Dave.
--
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Message Submission BURL Extension
	Author(s)	: C. Newman
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2005-11-11
	
The submission profile of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP)
   provides a standard way for an email client to submit a complete
   message for delivery.  This specification extends the submission
   profile by adding a new BURL command which can be used to fetch
   submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
   server.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
   server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 14 20:49:29 2005
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To: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Other Comments on Profile-03
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Randy, I thought you've sent comments on Profile (judging from the 
subject), but I see comments on Future Release.

Randall Gellens wrote:

> Requirement 4.1.1.2 seems a bit silly to me:
>
>  4.1.1 SMTP client behavior
>
>    2) An SMTP client wishing to use Future Message Release MUST include
>       a hold-param with the MAIL command.
>
> It might be better to either delete this, or restate it as descriptive 
> ("a client wishing to use future message release does so by including 
> a hold-param with the MAIL FROM command").

Agreed.

> In 4.1.1.4, perhaps "earlier than or equal to" instead of "less than 
> or equal to"?
>
> I'm unclear as to what "wishing" means in 4.1.2 (1) through (3).  It 
> may be better to delete this, and just say "supporting".  For 
> 4.1.2.2., I'd rather see a stronger statement: "An MSA MUST NOT 
> include FUTURRELEASE in its EHLO reply on any port other than the 
> submission port."

MSA doesn't necessarily have to run on the submission port.

I would rather rephrase this sentence to say that FUTURERELEASE is not 
allowed in MTAs.

> Do we need 4.1.1.7 and 4.1.1.8?  I don't see an interop requirement 
> here.  If we really do need these, it might be cleaner to word these 
> as "MUST reject a MAIL command which contains the xxx option 
> specifying a value which exceeds the advertised max-xxxx value." 
> (replacing 'xxx' with 'for' and 'until', and 'max-xxxx' with 
> 'max-future-release-interval' and 'max-future-release-date-time').

Agreed.



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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 16 18:18:50 2005
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:19:03 -0800
From: Chris Newman <Chris.Newman@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt
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I believe this new draft addresses all the open IESG comments on BURL so it 
should be done now.

I also added an "Acknowledgements" appendix.  As my memory is far from perfect 
I probably forgot to mention someone who should be in there.  If you think you 
should be in the acknowledgements, let me know and I'll fix it as part of RFC 
editor phase.

                - Chris

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote on 11/11/05 15:50 -0500:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email
> to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title		: Message Submission BURL Extension
> 	Author(s)	: C. Newman
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt
> 	Pages		: 14
> 	Date		: 2005-11-11
> 	
> The submission profile of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP)
>    provides a standard way for an email client to submit a complete
>    message for delivery.  This specification extends the submission
>    profile by adding a new BURL command which can be used to fetch
>    submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
>    server.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
>    server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the
>    client and uploading it back to the server.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
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>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
> "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> 	"get draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt".
> 	
> NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> 		
> 		
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>





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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Other Comments on Profile-03
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At 11:30 PM +0000 11/12/05, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  Randy, I thought you've sent comments on Profile (judging from the 
> subject), but I see comments on Future Release.

Oops, thanks, Alexey, you're of course correct.
-- 
Randall Gellens
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-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Yesterday it worked
Today it is not working
Windows is like that
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 19 11:46:10 2005
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Randy, thank you for the comments.

Randall Gellens wrote:

> (1) Editorial comment: I think it would be more clear to use "U" 
> instead of "M" in examples and figures to represent the messaging User 
> Agent.

I would rather not mess with the document at this stage.

> (4) I suggested changing the [RFC2476] reference to the update which 
> is in the RFC Editor's queue.  I don't recall anyone disagreeing, but 
> perhaps I missed it.  Is there a reason not to?

Sure.

> (10) In 3.1. Pipelining, is it accurate to say that use of pipelining 
> reduces round-trips?  Certainly it avoids waiting during round-trips.  
> Also, I don't think use of pipelining reduces bandwidth usage, but it 
> certainly reduces elapsed time and can reduce traffic channel usage.

IMHO, use of pipelining can potentially save some bandwidth at TCP 
level, i.e. there are less TCP packets to be sent.

> (11) In 3.3. Message size declaration, do we want to say that clients 
> SHOULD use message size declaration?  No point in sending a message 
> that the server will reject, especially given the bandwidth and 
> elapsed time usage to do so.

Good point. Our MTA already does that.
I've added:

A LEMONADE compliant client SHOULD use message size declaration. In 
particular it SHOULD NOT send a message to a mail submission server, if 
the client knows that the message exceeds the maximal message size 
advertised by the submission server.

Alexey



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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 19 11:46:13 2005
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Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) wrote:

> Last paragraph of Page 4 introduces two new concepts without 
> describing what they are '"forward without download" strategy' and 
> 'variant'.  Text saying
>  
>     "There are two use variants based on where the message assembly 
> takes place .  The first uses
>      a succession of BURL and BDAT commands to submit and assemble 
> through concatenation, 
>      message data from the client and external data fetched from the 
> provided URL. The second uses
>      the Catenate command to upload a template to the message store 
> and cause the message assembly
>      on the IMAP server." 

I've added your text after rewording it a bit.

> At least, that is what I think the authors were thinking but not 
> stating.    Along those lines, do we need an example of the first 
> variant?  The only text describing this variant is in section 2.5 
> explaining why chunking needs to be supported.

I've added Dave Cridland's BURL/BDAT example.

> Section 2.7.
>  
> A sentence or two about how to actually use catenate to solve the FCC 
> problem would help.  Is the solution to move the template into the 
> "sent items" mailbox prior to requesting a URLAUTH?   Do we need to 
> discuss "sent items" conventions here?  

I've rewrote the last paragraph of this section to read:

The [CATENATE] extension to [RFC3501] can be used to address the fcc 
problem.  The final message is constructed in the mailbox designed for 
outgoing mail. Note that the [CATENATE] extension can only create a 
single message and only on the server which stages the outgoing message 
for submission. Additional copies of the message can be created on the 
same server using one or more COPY command.



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Folks,

The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at least that's what you would
think from the fact that we have four offers for locations for our next
interim meeting.  We only had two offers for the last interim :-)

We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb
1-2.

The offered locations are:

	1. Beijing, China
	2. San Diego, CA
	3. Los Angeles, CA
	4. Boston, MA

As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll the WG on the turnout
based on meeting location.

Please respond to me by the end of the week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating if
you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the offered locations.
You may also indicate your preference if you would be able to attend
more than one location.=20

Cheers,
Glenn & Eric

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- =
at least that's what you would think from the fact that we have four =
offers for locations for our next interim meeting.&nbsp; We only had two =
offers for the last interim :-)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We propose that the date of the next =
LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb 1-2.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The offered locations are:</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">1. Beijing, China</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">2. San Diego, CA</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">3. Los Angeles, CA</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">4. Boston, MA</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As a result, the chairs are compelled =
to poll the WG on the turnout based on meeting location.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please respond to me by the end of the =
week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating if you would attend a LEMONADE interim in =
each of the offered locations.&nbsp; You may also indicate your =
preference if you would be able to attend more than one location. =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn &amp; Eric</FONT>
</P>

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On 11/28/05 at 5:51 PM -0500, Glenn Parsons wrote:

>The offered locations are:
>
>1. Beijing, China

I probably won't be able to go if it is in Beijing.

>2. San Diego, CA
>3. Los Angeles, CA
>4. Boston, MA

All are fine, and in that order of preference.

>We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb 1-2.

Acceptable, though Mon/Tue (Jan 30-31; first choice, especially if it 
is in Boston) or Thu/Fri (Feb 2-3; second choice) would be better for 
me. I can make Feb 1-2 though.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated

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Folks,

Below is the proposed liaison to OMA.

Let me know if you have any comments before Dec 5th.

Cheers,
Glenn


From: IETF LEMONADE Working Group
To: OMA MWG MEM Sub Working Group
Title: Regarding the OMA Mobile Email RD & AD=09
Response contact:  lemonade@ietf.org
Purpose:  For Action
Deadline:  January 16, 2006


The LEMONADE working group (WG) would like to thank the OMA Mobile Email
Sub Working Group for making us aware of the final version of the Mobile
Email Requirements document.  In addition we have noticed the latest
version of Mobile Email Architecture document (v1 - 20051023) on your
website.  These have been made available to the LEMONADE participants on
our supplemental website.

The IETF LEMONADE WG is working on the mobile email topic and we believe
our work to enhance Internet Mail is relevant to your requirements.
While our charter is specific on what aspects we are working on, the WG
has determined that it can cover all of the relevant OMA requirements
that affect Internet protocols.  Note that in some cases the work may be
conducted under related WGs (e.g., SIEVE, IMAPEXT, OPES), but the
LEMONADE WG plans to act as the interface to the OMA MEM activity.

We have reviewed your draft architecture document and have drafted a
proposed realization of the OMA MEM architecture using IETF protocols.
This is a work in progress and we would appreciate your feedback on this
document.

During this review, several specific comments were raised on the AD that
we would appreciate your consideration of:
1. is a protocol really needed to cope with lost notifications?
2. 'cache delete' is more precise than 'local delete'
3. are signed notifications required?

We would like to draw your attention to the fact that LEMONADE is
currently wrapping up the first phase of its work.  This means that
final IETF review is currently underway and that publication of LEMONADE
profile as RFCs is likely before year end.

Additional input on final details required to meet OMA requirements have
been reviewed, some are already WG documents.  The timeline would likely
result in the remaining protocol proposals being accepted as WG
documents later this year with review and conclusion later in 2006.

Up-to-date information on LEMONADE Internet-Drafts and RFCs can always
be found at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/lemonade-charter.html with
more detail tracked on the supplemental site.

Finally, as information, the next meetings of the IETF LEMONADE WG are:
*	Jan/Feb - LEMONADE interim - TBD
*	Mar 20-24 - IETF 65 plenary - Dallas, TX
*	Jul 10-14 - IETF 66 plenary - TBD


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Below is the proposed liaison to =
OMA.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Let me know if you have any comments =
before Dec 5th.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">From: IETF LEMONADE Working =
Group</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">To: OMA MWG MEM Sub Working =
Group</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Title: Regarding the OMA Mobile =
Email RD &amp; AD&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Response contact:&nbsp; =
lemonade@ietf.org</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Purpose:&nbsp; For Action</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Deadline:&nbsp; January 16, =
2006</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The LEMONADE working group (WG) =
would like to thank the OMA Mobile Email Sub Working Group for making us =
aware of the final version of the Mobile Email Requirements =
document.&nbsp; In addition we have noticed the latest version of Mobile =
Email Architecture document (v1 &#8211; 20051023) on your website.&nbsp; =
These have been made available to the LEMONADE participants on our =
supplemental website.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The IETF LEMONADE WG is working =
on the mobile email topic and we believe our work to enhance Internet =
Mail is relevant to your requirements.&nbsp; While our charter is =
specific on what aspects we are working on, the WG has determined that =
it can cover all of the relevant OMA requirements that affect Internet =
protocols.&nbsp; Note that in some cases the work may be conducted under =
related WGs (e.g., SIEVE, IMAPEXT, OPES), but the LEMONADE WG plans to =
act as the interface to the OMA MEM activity.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">We have reviewed your draft =
architecture document and have drafted a proposed realization of the OMA =
MEM architecture using IETF protocols.&nbsp; This is a work in progress =
and we would appreciate your feedback on this document.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">During this review, several =
specific comments were raised on the AD that we would appreciate your =
consideration of:</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">1. is a protocol really needed =
to cope with lost notifications?</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">2. &#8216;cache delete&#8217; is =
more precise than &#8216;local delete&#8217;</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">3. are signed notifications =
required?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">We would like to draw your =
attention to the fact that LEMONADE is currently wrapping up the first =
phase of its work.&nbsp; This means that final IETF review is currently =
underway and that publication of LEMONADE profile as RFCs is likely =
before year end.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Additional input on final details =
required to meet OMA requirements have been reviewed, some are already =
WG documents.&nbsp; The timeline would likely result in the remaining =
protocol proposals being accepted as WG documents later this year with =
review and conclusion later in 2006.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Up-to-date information on =
LEMONADE Internet-Drafts and RFCs can always be found at </FONT><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/lemonade-charter.html"><U><FONT=
 COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/lemonade-charter.html</FONT></U></=
A><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> with more detail tracked on the =
supplemental site.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Finally, as information, the next =
meetings of the IETF LEMONADE WG are:</FONT>

<UL>
<LI><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Jan/Feb &#8211; LEMONADE interim =
&#8211; TBD</FONT></LI>

<LI><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Mar 20-24 &#8211; IETF 65 =
plenary &#8211; Dallas, TX</FONT></LI>

<LI><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Jul 10-14 &#8211; IETF 66 =
plenary - TBD</FONT></LI>
<BR>
</UL>
</BODY>
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Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:36:42 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-08.txt
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Sorry that I didn't answer this earlier:

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>     In [IMAPURL], a URL of the form imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
>>     requires authorization as userid "fred".  However, [IMAPURL] implies
>>     that it only supports authentication,
> Actually, this is not true. IMAP URL uses the term "userid", which is 
> synonymous to authorization identity in SASL.
> There is no way to specify authentication identity, because IMAP URLs are not 
> allowed to contain passwords.

The full text (which you had split) is:

    In [IMAPURL], a URL of the form imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
    requires authorization as userid "fred".  However, [IMAPURL] implies
    that it only supports authentication, and confuses the concepts of
    authentication and authorization.

(I added the word "of" in the third line in my post-08 fixes).  I think 
that the part about "confusion" is important to understand the entire 
thing.

We all agree that "fred" is an authorization identify.

However, in reading [IMAPURL] (RFC 2192), we find extensive discussion of 
authentication in chapter 3 (including the ";AUTH=..." syntax), and no 
mention at all of authorization.

That's the intended meaning of this text; the userid here is 
authorization, but [IMAPURL] discusses it as if it was authentication. 
That's why URLAUTH has to fix it.

>>     The URLAUTH extension defines an authorization mechanism for IMAP
>>     URLs to replace [IMAPURL]'s authentication-only mechanism.
> Same as above.

The sentence would be better if it said "broken authentication-only 
mechanism".  But let's not go there.

>>  URLAUTH
>>     conveys authorization in the URL name itself, and reuses a portion of
> what is "URL name"?

Changed to "URL string" in post-08 fixes.

>>     the syntax of the [IMAPURL] authentication mechanism to convey the
>>     authorization identity (which also defines the default namespace in
>>     [IMAP]).
> This is still confusing (at least for me). I think what you are trying to say 
> that in the following IMAP URL:
> <imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20;URLAUTH=user+dave:...>
> "dave" is used for authorization and "fred" is used to define mailbox scope.

Actually, I'm trying to say:

[IMAPURL] only has authentication (because it doesn't talk about 
authorization at all), and it's broken since in
 	imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
"fred" is really authorization and default namespace.

To fix this broken situation, URLAUTH redefines "fred" as being 
authorization and default namespace, thus corresponding with reality.

rfc2192bis should do the same (work item for you).

> 2). draft-ietf-lemonade-rfc2192bis-00.txt have renamed some of IMAP URL 
> non-terminals to be more aligned with the generic URI syntax. Oh well, we 
> don't have to worry about URLAUTH until draft-ietf-lemonade-rfc2192bis-XX.txt 
> is published as an RFC.

I don't understand this.  Shouldn't URLAUTH be published first?

Maybe rfc2192bis should incorporate URLAUTH.  Is lemonade the right WG for 
it?  Perhaps it should be passed to imapext, or just made a private 
effort?

> 3). ABNF reference must be updated to RFC 4234.

Done in post-08 fixes.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:48:46 +0200
Message-ID: <084CB2DF0B7F5E47BC056ABBDF423700C4A5CD@trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: LEMONADE interim poll
Thread-Index: AcX0blLC3nNsXqoiT2awVn9Yug6FXwA6cstw
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I would prefer Beijing, China - keeping in mind what we discussed about =
the participation of Asia-based companies during the Vancouver meeting.
The US locations are equally fine.
Thank You.

Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh=20
E-mail: zoltan.ordogh@nokia.com
Phone: +358 50 386 0566=20

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On =
Behalf Of ext Glenn Parsons
Sent: 29 November, 2005 00:52
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll



Folks,=20

The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at least that's what you would =
think from the fact that we have four offers for locations for our next =
interim meeting.  We only had two offers for the last interim :-)

We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb =
1-2.=20

The offered locations are:=20

	1. Beijing, China=20
2. San Diego, CA=20
3. Los Angeles, CA=20
4. Boston, MA=20

As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll the WG on the turnout =
based on meeting location.=20

Please respond to me by the end of the week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating if =
you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the offered locations.  =
You may also indicate your preference if you would be able to attend =
more than one location.=20

Cheers,=20
Glenn & Eric=20


_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade



From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 00:18:01 2005
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From: "Tae-Soon Choi" <tschoi@lge.com>
To: <Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com>, <gparsons@nortel.com>, <lemonade@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:17:12 +0900
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Dear Folks,

I agree with Zoltan's opinion.=20
I also prefer Beijing, China.

Best Regards,
Tae-Soon=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
Of Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:49 AM
To: gparsons@nortel.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

=20

I would prefer Beijing, China - keeping in mind what we discussed about =
the
participation of Asia-based companies during the Vancouver meeting.

The US locations are equally fine.

Thank You.

=20

Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh=20

E-mail: zoltan.ordogh@nokia.com

Phone: +358 50 386 0566=20

=20

-----Original Message-----

From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On =
Behalf
Of ext Glenn Parsons

Sent: 29 November, 2005 00:52

To: lemonade@ietf.org

Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

=20

=20

=20

Folks,=20

=20

The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at least that's what you would =
think
from the fact that we have four offers for locations for our next =
interim
meeting.  We only had two offers for the last interim :-)

=20

We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb =
1-2.=20

=20

The offered locations are:=20

=20

             1. Beijing, China=20

2. San Diego, CA=20

3. Los Angeles, CA=20

4. Boston, MA=20

=20

As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll the WG on the turnout =
based on
meeting location.=20

=20

Please respond to me by the end of the week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating if =
you
would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the offered locations.  You =
may
also indicate your preference if you would be able to attend more than =
one
location.=20

=20

Cheers,=20

Glenn & Eric=20

=20

=20

_______________________________________________

lemonade mailing list

lemonade@ietf.org

https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade

=20


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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Dear Folks,<br>
<br>
I agree with Zoltan's opinion. <br>
I also prefer Beijing, China.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
Tae-Soon <img width=3D537 height=3D115 id=3D"_x0000_i1025"
src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01C5F5B8.C1D115A0"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of
Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 <st1:time o:ls=3D"trans" Hour=3D"11" =
Minute=3D"49"
w:st=3D"on">11:49 AM</st1:time><br>
To: gparsons@nortel.com; lemonade@ietf.org<br>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I would prefer <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Beijing</st1:City>,
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">China</st1:country-region> - keeping in =
mind what
we discussed about the participation of Asia-based companies during the =
<st1:City
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Vancouver</st1:place></st1:City> =
meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>
locations are equally fine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Thank You.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Best regards: Zolt</span></font><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Times =
New Roman"'>=E1</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-US>n </span><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-family:"Times New Roman"'>=D6</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-US>rd</span><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Times =
New Roman"'>=F6</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-US>gh <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>E-mail: =
zoltan.ordogh@nokia.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Phone: +358 50 386 0566 =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext Glenn =
Parsons<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: 29 November, 2005 <st1:time =
o:ls=3D"trans" Hour=3D"0"
Minute=3D"52" w:st=3D"on">00:52</st1:time><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To: =
lemonade@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim =
poll<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Folks, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at =
least that's
what you would think from the fact that we have four offers for =
locations for
our next interim meeting.=A0 We only had two offers for the last interim =
:-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE =
interim
meeting is Feb 1-2. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The offered locations are: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 1. =
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Beijing</st1:City>,
 <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">China</st1:country-region></st1:place> =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>2. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">San Diego</st1:City>,
 <st1:State w:st=3D"on">CA</st1:State></st1:place> =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>3. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Los
  Angeles</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st=3D"on">CA</st1:State></st1:place> =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>4. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Boston</st1:City>,
 <st1:State w:st=3D"on">MA</st1:State></st1:place> =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll =
the WG
on the turnout based on meeting location. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Please respond to me by the end of the week =
(i.e., Dec
2) indicating if you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the =
offered
locations.=A0 You may also indicate your preference if you would be able =
to
attend more than one location. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Glenn &amp; Eric =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>______________________________________________=
_<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>lemonade mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>lemonade@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonad=
e<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D&#44404;&#47548;><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

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------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5F5B8.C201C290--





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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 03:45:44 2005
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:17:21 -0500
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Cc: lemonade mailing list <lemonade@ietf.org>,
	lemonade chair <gparsons@nortel.com>,
	Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>,
	lemonade chair <eburger@brooktrout.com>,
	RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: [lemonade] Protocol Action: 'Internet Message Access Protocol
 (IMAP) CATENATE Extension' to Proposed Standard 
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The IESG has approved the following documents:

- 'Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) - URLAUTH Extension '
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-08.txt> as a Proposed Standard
- 'Message Submission BURL Extension '
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt> as a Proposed Standard
- 'Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) CATENATE Extension '
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-05.txt> as a Proposed Standard

These documents are products of the Enhancements to Internet email to support 
diverse service environments Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Ted Hardie and Scott Hollenbeck.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-08.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-04.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-05.txt

Technical Summary
 
This set of documents meets the "Forward without Download" milestone of the
Lemonade
working group charter.  The CATENATE extension to the Internet Message Access
Protocol (IMAP)
extends the APPEND command to allow clients to create messages on the
IMAP server which may contain a combination of new data along with
parts of (or entire) messages already on the server.  Using this
extension, the client can catenate parts of an already existing
message on to a new message without having to first download the data
and then upload it back to the server.  The URLAUTH extension to IMAP
provides a means by which an IMAP client can use URIs carrying authorization 
to access limited message data on the IMAP server.  These URIs, like a pawn
ticket, can be redeemed by whoever presents them and carry no authentication
information.  The BURL specification extends the submission
profile of SMTP by adding a new BURL command which can be used to fetch
submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
server.  It is presumed that BURL will generally be used with IMAP URLAUTH
style URIs.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the client and
uploading
it back to the server. 
 
Working Group Summary
 
Considerable debate and contributions in the last year lead to a WG decision to
standardize this pull based mechanism  instead of a push or a proxy based
mechanism.  There is now at least rough consensus in the working group on this
approach.  These documents have received considerable review in the WG.  Note
that the detailed description of how the two IMAP extensions and the SMTP
Submitextension work together will be published in the
draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-03.txt, which will be sent for WG last call in
another month or so.
 
Protocol Quality
 
This document was reviewed for the IESG by Ted Hardie.  The PROTO shepherd for
this document is
Glenn Parsons

Note to RFC Editor
 
In draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate, please update the text as below

OLD:

resp-text-code =/ toobig_response_code / badurl_response_code

   toobig_response_code = "TOOBIG"

   badurl_response_code = "BADURL" SP url-resp-text

NEW:

resp-text-code =/ toobig-response-code / badurl-response-code

   toobig-response-code = "TOOBIG"

   badurl-response-code = "BADURL" SP url-resp-text


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 04:04:44 2005
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:04:36 -0500
Message-ID: <330A23D8336C0346B5C1A5BB1966664701AD26C7@ATLANTIS.Brooktrout.com>
Thread-Topic: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
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Just a small note that I screwed up, and 2/1 is when I cannot be at the =
meeting.

Anyone have a problem moving the date back to the week before?  That =
also avoids the Spring Festival in China.

________________________________________
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Glenn Parsons
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:52 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

Folks,=20
The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at least that's what you would =
think from the fact that we have four offers for locations for our next =
interim meeting.=A0 We only had two offers for the last interim :-)
We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb =
1-2.=20
The offered locations are:=20
1. Beijing, China=20
2. San Diego, CA=20
3. Los Angeles, CA=20
4. Boston, MA=20
As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll the WG on the turnout =
based on meeting location.=20
Please respond to me by the end of the week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating if =
you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the offered locations.=A0 =
You may also indicate your preference if you would be able to attend =
more than one location.=20
Cheers,=20
Glenn & Eric=20

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Mark Crispin wrote:

>> 2). draft-ietf-lemonade-rfc2192bis-00.txt have renamed some of IMAP 
>> URL non-terminals to be more aligned with the generic URI syntax. Oh 
>> well, we don't have to worry about URLAUTH until 
>> draft-ietf-lemonade-rfc2192bis-XX.txt is published as an RFC.
>
> I don't understand this.  Shouldn't URLAUTH be published first?

Yes, unfortunately.

> Maybe rfc2192bis should incorporate URLAUTH.

Yes (the URL part of it).

> Is lemonade the right WG for it?

rfc2192bis is already a Lemonade WG draft.

> Perhaps it should be passed to imapext, or just made a private effort?
>
>> 3). ABNF reference must be updated to RFC 4234.
>
> Done in post-08 fixes.



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Folks,

I think we have had a bit more than the allocated 2 weeks for the
discussion of including IMAP BINARY in the LEMONADE Profile.

As I understand the current status of the discussion, IMAP BINARY APPEND
can return an 'not possible' error that would be a problem for LEMONADE
clients.  It may take some time to sort out how to deal with this.

As a result, I do not think we have consensus on this yet.

So I would encourage the editors to issue draft-06 without BINARY, so
that we can move to IETF last call.

Cheers,
Glenn.=20



------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F5C6.49539D0C
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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
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<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I think we have had a bit more than the =
allocated 2 weeks for the discussion of including IMAP BINARY in the =
LEMONADE Profile.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As I understand the current status of =
the discussion, IMAP BINARY APPEND can return an 'not possible' error =
that would be a problem for LEMONADE clients.&nbsp; It may take some =
time to sort out how to deal with this.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As a result, I do not think we have =
consensus on this yet.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So I would encourage the editors to =
issue draft-06 without BINARY, so that we can move to IETF last =
call.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn. </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

</BODY>
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 11:00:51 2005
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Mark Crispin wrote:

> Sorry that I didn't answer this earlier:
>
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>>     In [IMAPURL], a URL of the form 
>>> imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
>>>     requires authorization as userid "fred".  However, [IMAPURL] 
>>> implies
>>>     that it only supports authentication,
>>
>> Actually, this is not true. IMAP URL uses the term "userid", which is 
>> synonymous to authorization identity in SASL.
>> There is no way to specify authentication identity, because IMAP URLs 
>> are not allowed to contain passwords.
>
> The full text (which you had split) is:
>
>    In [IMAPURL], a URL of the form imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
>    requires authorization as userid "fred".  However, [IMAPURL] implies
>    that it only supports authentication, and confuses the concepts of
>    authentication and authorization.
>
> (I added the word "of" in the third line in my post-08 fixes).  I 
> think that the part about "confusion" is important to understand the 
> entire thing.

I guess I prefer "not clear on the concepts of ..." instead of "confuses 
the concepts of".

> We all agree that "fred" is an authorization identify.
>
> However, in reading [IMAPURL] (RFC 2192), we find extensive discussion 
> of authentication in chapter 3 (including the ";AUTH=..." syntax), and 
> no mention at all of authorization.

Ok. When I saw the word "authentication" in RFC 2192 I've implicitly 
assumed "SASL authentication" which includes authorization identity...

> That's the intended meaning of this text; the userid here is 
> authorization, but [IMAPURL] discusses it as if it was authentication. 
> That's why URLAUTH has to fix it.
>
>>>     The URLAUTH extension defines an authorization mechanism for IMAP
>>>     URLs to replace [IMAPURL]'s authentication-only mechanism.
>>
>> Same as above.
>
> The sentence would be better if it said "broken authentication-only 
> mechanism".  But let's not go there.

I would prefer if you rephrase the sentence, something like:
    The URLAUTH extension defines an authorization mechanism for IMAP
    URLs to replace [IMAPURL]'s authentication mechanisms that don't 
support authorization.

>>>  URLAUTH
>>>     conveys authorization in the URL name itself, and reuses a 
>>> portion of
>>
>> what is "URL name"?
>
> Changed to "URL string" in post-08 fixes.
>
>>>     the syntax of the [IMAPURL] authentication mechanism to convey the
>>>     authorization identity (which also defines the default namespace in
>>>     [IMAP]).
>>
>> This is still confusing (at least for me). I think what you are 
>> trying to say that in the following IMAP URL:
>> <imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20;URLAUTH=user+dave:...>
>> "dave" is used for authorization and "fred" is used to define mailbox 
>> scope.
>
> Actually, I'm trying to say:
>
> [IMAPURL] only has authentication (because it doesn't talk about 
> authorization at all), and it's broken since in
>     imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
> "fred" is really authorization and default namespace.
>
> To fix this broken situation, URLAUTH redefines "fred" as being 
> authorization and default namespace, thus corresponding with reality.

Ok, but I don't think this is what the sentence says. After rereading 
the original sentence:

     URLAUTH
     conveys authorization in the URL name itself, and reuses a portion of
     the syntax of the [IMAPURL] authentication mechanism to convey the
     authorization identity (which also defines the default namespace in
     [IMAP]).

I don't understand if authorization information is conveyed as a part of 
"authentication mechanism" or "in the URL string itself" (i.e. after 
";URLAUTH=").
In my example:
 <imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20;URLAUTH=user+dave:...>

the former is "fred" and the latter is "dave".

> rfc2192bis should do the same (work item for you).

Point taken.


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Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
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=20
Folks,

So the revised proposed date is Jan 24-25.

Cheers,
Glenn.

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Burger, Eric
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:05 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

Just a small note that I screwed up, and 2/1 is when I cannot be at the =
meeting.

Anyone have a problem moving the date back to the week before?  That =
also avoids the Spring Festival in China.

________________________________________
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Glenn Parsons
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:52 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

Folks,
The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at least that's what you would =
think from the fact that we have four offers for locations for our next =
interim meeting.=A0 We only had two offers for the last interim :-) We =
propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb 1-2.=20
The offered locations are:=20
1. Beijing, China
2. San Diego, CA
3. Los Angeles, CA
4. Boston, MA
As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll the WG on the turnout =
based on meeting location.=20
Please respond to me by the end of the week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating if =
you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the offered locations.=A0 =
You may also indicate your preference if you would be able to attend =
more than one location.=20
Cheers,
Glenn & Eric=20

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This is where theory clashes with reality.

The theory is that FETCH is for *body* parts.  Message envelope
information (metadata) does not get fetched, partially fetched, etc.

If you could fetch metadata and hack it, you could do stuff like take
out headers, change audit information, etc.

Oops: this is where reality steps in.  MUA's do this all the time when
replying or forwarding messages.  Is there any reason to or not to allow
this for metadata?

One thing I can think of is that to the mail system, body parts have
absolutely no semantic content.  You can hack the bodies to your heart's
content.  Nothing will break in the mail system, although the message
recipient may wonder what you are talking about.

That is NOT true for metadata.  Let's say I have a header that looks
like this:

To: eburger@example.com, gparsons@example.com,
jonathan.clark@mirapoint.com

And I want to take Glenn out of the list.  I could "poke out" his
address, possibly by overwriting it with a bunch of spaces or somehow
telling the server to delete a character range.

Now for the problem: let's say I or my MUA cannot count, and I say,
"drop characters 24-57.  Then my new To: line becomes:

To: eburger@example.comjonathan.clark@mirapoint.com

I then, later, get a DSN about not being able to find the hose
example.comjonathan.clark@mirapoint.com.

That's a bit whacky.  Worse yet, the error occurs well after the user
enters the address modification.

I suppose we could say that MUA's MUST be well implemented, but that is
a weird requirement that obviously does not always hold.

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Clark
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 1:58 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re[2]: [lemonade] Replying to or editing a big list

> Transforming addresses from 2822 to 2821 form can be challenging.=20
> Currently, there is an expectation that clients do this when creating=20
> a reply.  Do we want to move this task to the submit server?

I wasn't in London, but I'm sure that this is what OMA has in mind.

Having downloaded the To and Cc lines of the message to the device,
they don't want to upload them again (plus having them duplicated,
in some sense, in the SMTP envelope). So they envisage a server-side
Reply-All and for good measure they have thrown in the kitchen-sink
ability to edit this list. I'm not sure that the editing is worthwhile,
but I can see the validity of building the address list on the server.

I note in passing that pulling the To and Cc lines out of the message
in the store also finesses the Bcc problem of storing the SMTP envelope
contents.

Jonathan Clark
Solutions Architect
Mirapoint Inc
--


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 14:01:05 2005
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Server to Client format
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The list has been silent on Server-to-Client message formats.

I'd like to hear more before we add it to the charter.

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Randall Gellens
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:39 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Server to Client format

At 1:57 PM -0500 11/9/05, Eric Burger wrote:

>  Consensus in the room at IETF 64 is clear to make
>  draft-maes-lemonade-notifications-server-to-client-01 a work group
item.
>
>  Discussion?

There is a lot in that document aside from format of server-to-client=20
notifications.  Do we want to (a) make this document a wg document,=20
or (b) have a wg item for the format of s-to-c notifications?
--=20
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
yoin (yoh-EEN; Japanese; noun): experiential reverberation that
continues to move one long after the initial external stimulus
has ceased.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 14:28:40 2005
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: "Burger, Eric" <eburger@brooktrout.com>, "Randall Gellens"
	<randy@qualcomm.com>, "lemonade@ietf.org" <lemonade@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Server to Client format
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My expectation is:
- Format
- Role within IMAP sync
- Setup / change of config
- link to filters.

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture, Mobile, Voice, and Communications Platforms, Orac=
le.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Burger, Eric
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:01 AM
To: Randall Gellens; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Server to Client format

The list has been silent on Server-to-Client message formats.

I'd like to hear more before we add it to the charter.

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Randall Gellens
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:39 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Server to Client format

At 1:57 PM -0500 11/9/05, Eric Burger wrote:

>  Consensus in the room at IETF 64 is clear to make
>  draft-maes-lemonade-notifications-server-to-client-01 a work group
item.
>
>  Discussion?

There is a lot in that document aside from format of server-to-client =

notifications.  Do we want to (a) make this document a wg document, =

or (b) have a wg item for the format of s-to-c notifications?
-- =

Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
yoin (yoh-EEN; Japanese; noun): experiential reverberation that
continues to move one long after the initial external stimulus
has ceased.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 16:08:17 2005
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Subject: [lemonade] CATENATE, URLAUTH and RFC 2192bis
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While doing some interop testing with Dave Cridland, Dave brought up a 
good point which I think is worth mentioning here.

The current CATENATE and URLAUTH drafts both have RFC 2192 as normative 
references.  RFC 2192 doesn't have support for partial fetches.  RFC 
2192bis adds support for partial fetches via 'ipartial'.  There is a 
potential for an interop problem here if a newer client using RFC 
2192bis as a reference tries to do a partial fetch against an older 
server using RFC 2192 as a reference.  In other words, the client has no 
way of knowing whether the server supports partial fetches.

The solution would be to make RFC 2192bis the normative reference for 
both CATENATE and URLAUTH.  Alternatively (and more ugly), we could add 
a new IMAP capability which announces support for ipartial in URLs.

-- 
Kenneth Murchison
Systems Programmer
Carnegie Mellon University

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 17:00:59 2005
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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:55:20 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: Anil SRIVASTAVA <Anil.Srivastava@Sun.COM>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Server to Client format
In-reply-to: <20051130112816086.00000003968@smaes-lap>
To: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
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Stephane:

Is the message payload expected to also include message data (like 
subject, sender, etc) or just the message state (as in message XXX was 
marked as deleted)?

Anil

On 2005-11-30/11:28 [-0800], stephane.maes@oracle.com [Stephane H. Maes] wrote:

> My expectation is:
> - Format
> - Role within IMAP sync
> - Setup / change of config
> - link to filters.
> 
> Stephane
> _____
> Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
> Director of Architecture, Mobile, Voice, and Communications Platforms, Oracle.
> Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296
> e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
> IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Burger, Eric
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:01 AM
> To: Randall Gellens; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Server to Client format
> 
> The list has been silent on Server-to-Client message formats.
> 
> I'd like to hear more before we add it to the charter.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Randall Gellens
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:39 PM
> To: lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lemonade] Server to Client format
> 
> At 1:57 PM -0500 11/9/05, Eric Burger wrote:
> 
> >  Consensus in the room at IETF 64 is clear to make
> >  draft-maes-lemonade-notifications-server-to-client-01 a work group
> item.
> >
> >  Discussion?
> 
> There is a lot in that document aside from format of server-to-client 
> notifications.  Do we want to (a) make this document a wg document, 
> or (b) have a wg item for the format of s-to-c notifications?
> 

-- 
_______________
Anil SRIVASTAVA
anil.srivastava@Sun.COM

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Subject: [lemonade] Comments on implementing BURL, CATENATE, and URLAUTH
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As well as the point about ipartial support in CATENATE/URLAUTH, 
whilst actively testing (and heartily rewriting) suppport for the 
triad, I've noted a few issues, all fairly minor, that I've found 
when actually implementing them.

I'm using Ken's implementation of CATENATE and URLAUTH in the Cyrus 
IMAPd 2.3.0 CVS branch, but I've written both client support and a 
prototype submission server. Both support Lemonade Profile 1 (or are 
intended to), but the client is not restricted to Lemonade Profile 1 
- it'll use whatever extensions are available. The client is GPL 
licensed, available at http://dave.cridland.net/acap/polymer.html and 
the submission server is unreleased, although I'm happy to give 
access to it (and a corresponding Cyrus 2.3 server) for testing 
purposes.

I'm saying this to stress that I'm not talking about theoretical 
problems but actual ones I've encountered.

1) I ran into an almost immediate problem with URLAUTH in that the 
server didn't recognise the hostname in the URL as being its own. I 
used 'mail' rather than the server's canonical hostname.

It occurs to me that if GENURLAUTH accepted a relative URL (either to 
the server URL, or to the currently selected mailbox as with 
CATENATE), this problem would vanish. The server is always in a 
better position than the client to construct the URL to the server.

And think of all those octets we'll save. ;-)

2) There's no way to know whether a submission server you're talking 
to:

a) Is authorized by the IMAP server to access "submit+" URLAUTH URLs.

b) Will understand and use "anonymous" URLAUTH URLs, or simply 
anonymous URLs.

The BURL draft says that submission servers advertising "BURL imap" 
can resolve "submit+" URLAUTH URLs "within the same domain", but 
that's a little vague.

For a Lemonade-restricted client, I don't think this is an issue, but 
I'd like to see it considered for the future.

FWIW, my own submission server handles any anonymous access URLs 
(URLAUTH or not) it's given, and I'm intending to solve problem (a) 
by making the somewhat ugly assumption that the specified draft 
folder is on a server that authorizes the submission server as 
"submit+".

3) I found it unclear what response BURL generates when used with 
CHUNKING. It seems natural that, given that RFC3030 clearly shows a 
250 response for non-LAST chunks with BDAT, that BURL should also, 
but in section 6, a "354" response code is listed. I have chosen to 
expect, and emit, 250 response codes, in line with BDAT.

4) I found it unclear whether URLFETCH should accept relative URLs or 
not. I have no opinion on whether it should or not, either, given 
that the only purposes I can think of would be stateless access to 
message bodies, and I'm not sure that's within the spirit of things.

I'd be very interested to know if other client implementors have run 
into the same problems.

If, in areas where I state a lack of clarity, I'm merely being 
foolish, please correct me.

Dave.
-- 
           You see things; and you say "Why?"
   But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"
    - George Bernard Shaw

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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:55:49 -0800
To: "Glenn Parsons" <gparsons@nortel.com>, <lemonade@ietf.org>
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
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At 11:11 AM -0500 11/30/05, Glenn Parsons wrote:

>  So the revised proposed date is Jan 24-25.

That works much better than Feb 1-2, since it avoids any conflict 
with OMA in Paris Feb 5-10.

Of the locations, I think Los Angeles may be the best choice, 
followed by Boston, as both are very easy to get to for many people 
(while I live in San Diego, I must admit that it requires an extra 
connection for many people).

I think Beijing would be very difficult for most North American participants.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 19:38:03 2005
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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:35:53 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Ken Murchison <murch@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE, URLAUTH and RFC 2192bis
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Ken Murchison wrote:
> In other words, the client has no way of knowing whether the server supports 
> partial fetches.

Unless we want to pull URLAUTH back from the RFC Editor queue, we will 
need a new new IMAP capability which announces support for ipartial in 
URLs.

Is ipartial in URLs a LEMONADE requirement?  I forget if it is or not.

> The solution would be to make RFC 2192bis the normative reference for both 
> CATENATE and URLAUTH.

I think that this is a bad idea for URLAUTH.  I hope that 2192bis will 
replace both RFC 2192 and URLAUTH by incorporating URLAUTH; but to do 
2192bis properly will require time.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:45:55 +0800
From: Lingyan Wu <wulingyan_48795@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
To: gparsons@nortel.com, lemonade@ietf.org
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Hi Folks,

I would prefer Beijing, China.

Best Regards,

Lingyan Wu
Research & Standardization Dept.
Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Tae-Soon Choi=20
  To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com ; gparsons@nortel.com ; lemonade@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:17 PM
  Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll


  Dear Folks,

  I agree with Zoltan's opinion.=20
  I also prefer Beijing, China.

  Best Regards,
  Tae-Soon=20

  =20

  -----Original Message-----
  From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com
  Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:49 AM
  To: gparsons@nortel.com; lemonade@ietf.org
  Subject: RE: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

  =20

  I would prefer Beijing, China - keeping in mind what we discussed =
about the participation of Asia-based companies during the Vancouver =
meeting.

  The US locations are equally fine.

  Thank You.

  =20

  Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh=20

  E-mail: zoltan.ordogh@nokia.com

  Phone: +358 50 386 0566=20

  =20

  -----Original Message-----

  From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On =
Behalf Of ext Glenn Parsons

  Sent: 29 November, 2005 00:52

  To: lemonade@ietf.org

  Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll

  =20

  =20

  =20

  Folks,=20

  =20

  The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at least that's what you would =
think from the fact that we have four offers for locations for our next =
interim meeting.  We only had two offers for the last interim :-)

  =20

  We propose that the date of the next LEMONADE interim meeting is Feb =
1-2.=20

  =20

  The offered locations are:=20

  =20

               1. Beijing, China=20

  2. San Diego, CA=20

  3. Los Angeles, CA=20

  4. Boston, MA=20

  =20

  As a result, the chairs are compelled to poll the WG on the turnout =
based on meeting location.=20

  =20

  Please respond to me by the end of the week (i.e., Dec 2) indicating =
if you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the offered locations. =
 You may also indicate your preference if you would be able to attend =
more than one location.=20

  =20

  Cheers,=20

  Glenn & Eric=20

  =20

  =20

  _______________________________________________

  lemonade mailing list

  lemonade@ietf.org

  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade

  =20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


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<DIV><FONT face=3D&#23435;&#20307; size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi&nbsp;Folks,<BR><BR>I&nbsp;would prefer =
Beijing,=20
China.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D&#23435;&#20307; size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D&#23435;&#20307; size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D&#23435;&#20307; =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D&#23435;&#20307; size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D&#23435;&#20307; size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Lingyan=20
Wu<BR>Research &amp; Standardization Dept.<BR>Huawei Technologies Co.,=20
Ltd.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 9pt &#23435;&#20307;">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 9pt &#23435;&#20307;; =
font-color: black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dtschoi@lge.com href=3D"mailto:tschoi@lge.com">Tae-Soon =
Choi</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 9pt &#23435;&#20307;"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DZoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com">Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com</A> ; =
<A=20
  title=3Dgparsons@nortel.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:gparsons@nortel.com">gparsons@nortel.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dlemonade@ietf.org =
href=3D"mailto:lemonade@ietf.org">lemonade@ietf.org</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 9pt &#23435;&#20307;"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
November 30, 2005 1:17=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 9pt &#23435;&#20307;"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[lemonade] LEMONADE interim=20
  poll</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1 style=3D"LAYOUT-GRID:  18pt none">
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear Folks,<BR><BR>I agree with Zoltan's =
opinion.=20
  <BR>I also prefer Beijing, China.<BR><BR>Best Regards,<BR>Tae-Soon =
<IMG=20
  id=3D_x0000_i1025 height=3D115=20
  src=3D"cid:004a01c5f610$96491a10$2f0aa40a@china.huawei.com"=20
  width=3D537><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org">lemonade-bounces@ietf.org</A>=20
  [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com">Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com</A><BR>Se=
nt:=20
  Wednesday, November 30, 2005 <st1:time o:ls=3D"trans" Hour=3D"11" =
Minute=3D"49"=20
  w:st=3D"on">11:49 AM</st1:time><BR>To: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:gparsons@nortel.com">gparsons@nortel.com</A>; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:lemonade@ietf.org">lemonade@ietf.org</A><BR>Subject: =
RE:=20
  [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would prefer <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Beijing</st1:City>,=20
  <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">China</st1:country-region> - keeping =
in mind=20
  what we discussed about the participation of Asia-based companies =
during the=20
  <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Vancouver</st1:place></st1:City>=20
  meeting.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place=20
  w:st=3D"on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> locations are equally=20
  fine.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thank You.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best regards: Zolt</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">=E1</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US>n=20
  </SPAN><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">=D6</SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US>rd</SPAN><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">=F6</SPAN></FONT><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US>gh=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">E-mail:=20
  zoltan.ordogh@nokia.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Phone: +358 50 386 0566 =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original=20
Message-----<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext Glenn=20
  Parsons<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent: 29 November, 2005 <st1:time =
o:ls=3D"trans"=20
  Hour=3D"0" Minute=3D"52" =
w:st=3D"on">00:52</st1:time><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To: =
lemonade@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim=20
  poll<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Folks, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The interest in LEMONADE is growing -- at =
least that's=20
  what you would think from the fact that we have four offers for =
locations for=20
  our next interim meeting.&nbsp; We only had two offers for the last =
interim=20
  :-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">We propose that the date of the next =
LEMONADE interim=20
  meeting is Feb 1-2. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The offered locations are:=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
  1. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Beijing</st1:City>,=20
  <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">China</st1:country-region></st1:place> =

  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">San=20
  Diego</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st=3D"on">CA</st1:State></st1:place>=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Los=20
  Angeles</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st=3D"on">CA</st1:State></st1:place>=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">4. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City=20
  w:st=3D"on">Boston</st1:City>, <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on">MA</st1:State></st1:place>=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As a result, the chairs are compelled to =
poll the WG=20
  on the turnout based on meeting location. =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Please respond to me by the end of the week =
(i.e., Dec=20
  2) indicating if you would attend a LEMONADE interim in each of the =
offered=20
  locations.&nbsp; You may also indicate your preference if you would be =
able to=20
  attend more than one location. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cheers, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Glenn &amp; Eric =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></SPAN></=
FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">lemonade mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">lemonade@ietf.org<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade<o:p></o:p></SPAN></=
FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3D&#44404;&#47548; size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>lemonade =
mailing=20
  =
list<BR>lemonade@ietf.org<BR>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemon=
ade<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 20:18:23 2005
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Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:16:14 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments on implementing BURL, CATENATE, and URLAUTH
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Dave Cridland wrote:
> 1) I ran into an almost immediate problem with URLAUTH in that the server 
> didn't recognise the hostname in the URL as being its own. I used 'mail' 
> rather than the server's canonical hostname.

For better or worse, I think that a server needs to recognize its name(s) 
and not assume a canonicalization.  Canonicalization implies chasing CNAME 
and possibly a PTR lookup.

> It occurs to me that if GENURLAUTH accepted a relative URL (either to the 
> server URL, or to the currently selected mailbox as with CATENATE), this 
> problem would vanish. The server is always in a better position than the 
> client to construct the URL to the server.

I question whether this is really so, given virtual hosts and other such 
complications.

> 2) There's no way to know whether a submission server you're talking to:
> a) Is authorized by the IMAP server to access "submit+" URLAUTH URLs.
> b) Will understand and use "anonymous" URLAUTH URLs, or simply anonymous 
> URLs.

I always thought that this was something that this would be knowledge that 
is configured into the client, either by the human user or by some system 
configuration tool.

> 4) I found it unclear whether URLFETCH should accept relative URLs or not. I 
> have no opinion on whether it should or not, either, given that the only 
> purposes I can think of would be stateless access to message bodies, and I'm 
> not sure that's within the spirit of things.

I thought that in LEMONADE we require absolute.

Stateless access to message bodies is certainly a possibility, considered 
from the inception of URLAUTH.  I'm not sure if I consider it to be "good" 
or "bad" (I tend towards the latter) but it certainly was considered.

:-)

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 22:55:50 2005
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Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:54:20 +0800
From: Gang Liang <lianggang79@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
To: Lingyan Wu <wulingyan_48795@huawei.com>, gparsons@nortel.com,
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 30 23:02:47 2005
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Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 12:01:07 +0800
From: Gang Liang <lianggang79@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] LEMONADE interim poll
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Message-id: <00da01c5f62b$db703e00$0b0aa40a@china.huawei.com>
Organization: Huawei
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hi all,

I would perfer Beijing, China, too. But I agree that the revised proposed date is Jan 24-25 because our Spring Festival in China from 28,Jan to 7,Feb.

Best Regards,
Liang Gang
Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd
----------------------------------------------------
Lianggang
Huawei Technologies
Tel:+86 25 84565646
Mob:+86 13813998674
Fax:+86 25 84565028
Email:lianggang79@huawei.com
---------------------------------------------------- 

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