From brooky_22@politia.com.gr Fri Feb 1 03:24:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBB33A68C9 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 03:24:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Score: 60.05 X-Spam-Level: ************************************************************ X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=60.05 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HELO_EQ_NE_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HOST_EQ_NE_JP=2.599, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SUBJECT_FUZZY_MEDS=3.799, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10] X-Spam-Report: * 3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100% * [score: 1.0000] * 1.2 HELO_EQ_JP HELO_EQ_JP * 1.3 HOST_EQ_JP HOST_EQ_JP * 2.6 HOST_EQ_NE_JP HOST_EQ_NE_JP * 1.2 HELO_EQ_NE_JP HELO_EQ_NE_JP * 3.8 SUBJECT_FUZZY_MEDS Attempt to obfuscate words in Subject: * 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: Uses a dotted-decimal IP address in URL * 0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/) * 20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist * [URIs: 70.232.80.63] * 10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist * [URIs: 70.232.80.63] * 10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist * [URIs: 70.232.80.63] * 0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL * [122.17.17.2 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] * 3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL * 2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net * [Blocked - see ] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ty6rQiI5G9kg for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 03:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3002-ipbf207niigatani.niigata.ocn.ne.jp (p3002-ipbf207niigatani.niigata.ocn.ne.jp [122.17.17.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EBEF3A6869 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 03:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from yhfp ([66.95.179.33]) by p3002-ipbf207niigatani.niigata.ocn.ne.jp (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id m11BS76j053190; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:28:07 +0900 Message-ID: <47A3016F.8000007@politia.com.gr> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:24:31 +0900 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade-archive@ietf.org Subject: ***SPAM*** 60.05 (5) Looking for the best pricein medz? 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(VPS 080201-0, 2008/02/01), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Proven effect on your boner! http://70.232.80.63/qidb/ From mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Fri Feb 1 06:25:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C91028DCCA for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:24:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id su0Rnk8MP-HB for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE65228D676 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:59:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:07:30 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@core3.amsl.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Errors-To: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. 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Thanks! http://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/lemonade/lemonade-archive%40optimus.ietf.org From mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Fri Feb 1 06:25:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7588D2937A8 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:25:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sWaVhopWOKbI for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BA12A37BA for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:59:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:07:32 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@core3.amsl.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Errors-To: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, mailman-request@ietf.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@ietf.org. Thanks! http://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/lemonade/lemonade-archive%40optimus.ietf.org From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 1 09:38:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D2D28C245; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:38:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.97 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.97 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.230, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GHs6yOUKSG81; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00BD28C24E; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:38:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D265128C227 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:38:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WP2BWLStW+AK for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A6B3A6858 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:39:16 +0000 Message-ID: <47A3592B.6040403@isode.com> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:38:51 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] POLL: discovery of available conversions in CONVERT X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Hi everyone, > After reviewing comments on CONVERT capability discovery received > during and after WG LC it looks like there is no consensus (at least > not yet) to use any particular mechanism. Please correct me if you > think otherwise. > > So in order to figure out if the WG prefers any particular mechanism I > suggest that people answer the following questionnaire. Some questions > allow for multiple choices. Please list them in the order of your > preferences. > > In order to correctly answer the questionnaire, one needs to: > 1). have basic understand about CONVERT, ideally read > draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-13.txt > 2). review draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt > 3). review draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt > > Please either send your replies to the Lemonade WG mailing list, or if > you prefer - directly to me, CCing Peter Coates > , Eric Burger , Glenn Parsons > . > > Please send your response before February 8th. Folks, There is only one week left for the poll and I only got 2 responses. I am expecting at least 5 responses from usual suspects. Please respond, or I will start bugging your directly. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 4 03:51:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B563A6E0B; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:51:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.623 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.623 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KEwvqVjTk7Rn; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82183A6E0F; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:51:29 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2F43A6E0F for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:51:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tpPQjebRft0i for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853D33A68D8 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 03:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF3D219F41; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:43:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kVYUNwBiG24; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:43:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pvanhoof.freax.org [86.39.154.67]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B218219F39; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:43:27 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Alexey Melnikov In-Reply-To: <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:52:37 +0100 Message-Id: <1202125957.8646.35.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: Lemonade WG Subject: Re: [lemonade] POLL: discovery of available conversions in CONVERT X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 2008-01-25 at 18:03 +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Please send your response before February 8th. > ========================================== > > Q1: Some questions regarding understanding of METADATA-SERVER > (draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt) extension (please answer to each > question with Yes (true) or No (false)) > > A). METADATA-SERVER depends on LIST-EXTENDED extension > (draft-ietf-imapext-list-extensions-18.txt). Yes (Introduction and overview explicitly states this) > B). METADATA-SERVER depends on ENABLE extension > (draft-gulbrandsen-imap-enable-05.txt). Yes (Introduction and overview explicitly states this) > C). A server implementing METADATA-SERVER must implement multiple > comparators. Not sure > D). METADATA-SERVER requires implementation of both .priv and .shared Section 3.3 mentions this, so yes. > Q2: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery mechanism: > "Give me this body part in a format that I probably understand" > (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or Undecided) 1) No: CONVERT should allow me to specify "exactly" what the format will be and "exactly" what it can give me, before actually giving it. The word "probably" is meaningless for a client. "Probably" means that equally probable it wont work. > Answers: > 1). No > 2). Yes, I am happy with Dave Cridland's proposal (see section 2.1 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or > ) > 3). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal > 4). Undecided > Q3: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery mechanism: > "What can I turn this body part into?" > (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or Undecided) Yes 2) CONVERSIONS, it seems, only tells me globally what conversions are possible. It doesn't seem allow me to ask: What can you convert "this specific MIME part of this specific message in this specific folder" to. Something like this would be useful: C: 1 SELECT INBOX S: ... S: 1 OK SELECT completed C: 2 UID CONVERSIONS 3 (2.1) S: * CONVERT "image/jpeg" ("width" "height" "depth") S: * CONVERT "application/pdf" S: * CONVERT "image/png" ("width" "height" "depth") S: 2 OK CONVERSIONS completed > Answers: > 1). No > 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see > draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) > 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or > ) > 4). Yes, I prefer Arnt's proposal for advertising target MIME types (or > similar tokens) in the CAPABILITY response, e.g.: > > * CAPABILITY ... CONVERT=JPEG ... CONVERT=MP3 ... 1) No Same as #2: only globally support conversions are possible to know about. > 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal > 6). Undecided > > > Q4: Should CONVERT support discovery of available conversion parameters > for a particular conversion? > (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or > Undecided) Note that a separate question is asking if discovery should > be optional or mandatory for servers to implement. > > Answers: > 1). No, reporting that a particular conversion parameter is not > supported (see CONVERT draft) is sufficient > 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see > draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) > 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or > ) > 4). Yes, I would prefer to list available conversion parameters upon a > CONVERT command failure caused by an unrecognized conversion parameter, > for example: 4) Sounds usable > C: b002 CONVERT 2 ("text/plain" ("mumble" "hrrr")) > (BINARY[3] BODYPARTSTRUCTURE[3]) > S: * 2 CONVERTED (tag "b002") (BODYPARTSTRUCTURE[3] > (ERROR "Parameter mumble is not supported for text/plain" > BADPARAMETERS > "text/html" "text/plain" ("mumble" "hrrr"))) > S: * CONVERSIONS "text/html" "text/plain" "charset" > "UNKNOWN-CHARACTER-REPLACEMENT" > S: b002 OK Some conversions failed > > 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal > 6). Undecided > > > Q5: If you answered Yes to Q4: should the conversion parameter discovery > be Mandatory or Optional for servers to support? Mandatory -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 4 07:09:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1683A6F5B; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:09:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uVGhhhM0fIDj; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D583A6DFE; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:09:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C263A6DFE for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rAZTzYb3zRXR for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511503A6BB3 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m14FAB7m019343; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:10:47 +0200 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:10:18 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:10:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:10:31 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1202125957.8646.35.camel@schtrumpf> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] POLL: discovery of available conversions in CONVERT Thread-Index: AchnJIoqmyv3XfOyQE2/gtfNkdcYPAAGqk7A References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com><479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <1202125957.8646.35.camel@schtrumpf> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2008 15:10:18.0326 (UTC) FILETIME=[0D916760:01C86740] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] POLL: discovery of available conversions in CONVERT X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey and Philip, Philip wrote: >> Q2: Should CONVERT support the following conversion = >discovery mechanism: = >> "Give me this body part in a format that I probably understand" >> (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or = >> Undecided) > >1) No: CONVERT should allow me to specify "exactly" what the = >format will be and "exactly" what it can give me, before = >actually giving it. Now, I understood the question in a way that if there was support for "Give= me this body part in a format that I probably understand" then it does not= mean exclusion of Philip's "exact" conversion (and vice versa). Is my unde= rstanding correct, or these are meant to be mutually exclusive? Thank You. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 4 07:16:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE473A6F86; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:16:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.994 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.994 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3bNeMcqcfpD; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376E53A6EB6; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:16:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B053A6DAA for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:16:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8tIl1L6UiPh5 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74ADB3A6EB6 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:18:07 +0000 Message-ID: <47A72C78.3010301@isode.com> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:17:12 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com><479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <1202125957.8646.35.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] POLL: discovery of available conversions in CONVERT X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote: >Alexey and Philip, > >Philip wrote: > > >>>Q2: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery mechanism: >>> >>> >>>"Give me this body part in a format that I probably understand" >>>(feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or >>>Undecided) >>> >>> >>1) No: CONVERT should allow me to specify "exactly" what the >>format will be and "exactly" what it can give me, before >>actually giving it. >> >> > >Now, I understood the question in a way that if there was support for "Give me this body part in a format that I probably understand" then it does not mean exclusion of Philip's "exact" conversion (and vice versa). > You are correct. Philip slightly misunderstood my question. >Is my understanding correct, or these are meant to be mutually exclusive? > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From celete@unimi.it Tue Feb 5 11:01:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@mail.ietf.org Received: by mail.ietf.org (Postfix, from userid 51) id 315233A6BC1; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 10:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-KK-static-057.195.95.61.airtelbroadband.in (unknown [61.95.195.57]) by mail.ietf.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4651D3A989B for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 03:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from hzq ([39.217.185.186]) by dsl-KK-static-057.195.95.61.airtelbroadband.in (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id m15B2dgj049367; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:32:39 +0530 Message-ID: <47A8423B.1060705@unimi.it> Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:32:19 +0530 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (Windows/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade-archive@ietf.org Subject: This can make you a legend in her eyes! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Original Blue-Pills Here! http://as.endscience.com From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 8 13:57:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C06C3A6820; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:57:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AsxBoEMPJumR; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAFD3A768F; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:57:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963D23A76B2 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:57:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oBpG5DfgGa2P for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com (zcars04e.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58003A7E12 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.95]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m18Lsbb29387 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 21:54:38 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:57:43 -0500 Message-ID: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop Thread-Index: AchqnaG+ZMiRranDSaGM8HVhGgqLkw== From: "Glenn Parsons" To: Subject: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1989194507==" Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1989194507== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C86A9D.A24ED10A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86A9D.A24ED10A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, As we indicated in Vancouver, we have been working to schedule a joint workshop with OMA MEM to do a final joint analysis of LEMONADE Profile bis and the OMA MEM RD/AD/TS. The goal is to reach a mutual understanding that LEMONADE has covered their requirements and to identify any issues or possible future work items. We did this before near the start of the Profile bis work, so the time is right to do it again as we are about to conclude. We had hoped to fit this in in January or February, however the scheduling did not work out. The current proposal is that this workshop will happen in Philadelphia on March 14th. This will be in addition to any LEMONADE meeting during IETF. As we are still trying to secure meeting space, this is not yet an official announcement... But please keep this Friday workshop in mind when making your travel plans. Cheers, Glenn. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86A9D.A24ED10A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop

Folks,

As we indicated in Vancouver, we have = been working to schedule a joint workshop with OMA MEM to do a final = joint analysis of LEMONADE Profile bis and the OMA MEM RD/AD/TS.  = The goal is to reach a mutual understanding that LEMONADE has covered = their requirements and to identify any issues or possible future work = items.  We did this before near the start of the Profile bis work, = so the time is right to do it again as we are about to = conclude.

We had hoped to fit this in in January = or February, however the scheduling did not work out.  The current = proposal is that this workshop will happen in Philadelphia on March = 14th.  This will be in addition to any LEMONADE meeting during = IETF.  As we are still trying to secure meeting space, this is not = yet an official announcement…

But please keep this Friday workshop in = mind when making your travel plans.

Cheers,
Glenn.


------_=_NextPart_001_01C86A9D.A24ED10A-- --===============1989194507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --===============1989194507==-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 8 15:45:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3149428C759; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ijDon4lNNZS7; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2F228C707; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:05 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id F366D28C124; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080208234501.F366D28C124@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : The IMAP NOTIFY Extension Author(s) : C. King Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2008-2-8 This document defines an IMAP extension which allows a client to request specific kinds of unsolicited notifications for specified mailboxes, such as messages being added to or deleted from mailboxes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-2-8154035.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-2-8154035.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 03:49:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2D828C95E; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:49:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.967, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t98xuGsThwRR; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C737428C94A; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:49:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038BD28C94A for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:49:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJRVqmOoTK7j for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6542428C8F0 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DC9EC9BF for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:41:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g1dvwOjms0-G for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:41:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.113] (zeus.freax.org [86.39.154.65]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0DAEC9BE for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:41:03 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: lemonade@ietf.org Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 12:50:30 +0100 Message-Id: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Subject: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Problem: When you want to retrieve the envelope of messages you want, on a mobile with limited bandwidth capacity, to do this with a query that has a small amount of columns to avoid consuming a lot of bandwidth. If you'd only need to request bodystructure just to know whether or not you have attachments, then for just that one-bit sized flag you'd require the user to perform an IMAP query that is significantly larger than necessary (in bandwidth size, therefore costing real money for the application's user when doing this over for example GPRS). Microsoft's E-mail clients add a X-MS-Has-Attach or something header, which is indeed very useful for exactly this purpose. Given that the IMAP server is required to have a MIME parser, it could easily determine this flag for the E-mail client too. A proposal: To specify a method or a field in the ENVELOPE response that accurately tells me whether or not a message has an attachment and whether any of the attachments doesn't have as content disposition being an inline one. This will improve accuracy for mobile E-mail clients who want to tell the user about the has-attachments status of an E-mail before having to download the entire message or its bodystructure. ps. The "difficulty" that is "knowing what and what isn't an attachment" really isn't that much of a difficulty IMHO. Relatively few E-mail clients deviate from what everybody calls an attachment and what not. You could specify this in the spec with for example a: Images that are embedded in the HTML (inline), are no attachments for most users. A text/html part is not an attachment. Images that are attached (have a filename attribute or are not to be showed inline in the text message) are attachments. A rfc822 forwarded messages depending on the forward-style (inline or not) is an attachment (this one is questionable, though). An attachment in a forwarded (in a forwarded message in a ...) message makes the root message get the has-attachment status too. Etcetera ... -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 03:52:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1982828C95A; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.409, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wybm4b75TR-V; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2856128C945; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:52:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84AE28C945 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:52:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r6YnysIHUwo8 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CDA28C8F0 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 03:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B534AC7D for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:54:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202558060-88653-10; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:54:20 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:54:20 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Philip Van Hoof writes: > When you want to retrieve the envelope of messages you want, on a > mobile with limited bandwidth capacity, to do this with a query that > has a small amount of columns to avoid consuming a lot of bandwidth. This command does so with very few bytes: a uid fetch x body.peek[header.fields (content-type)] Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 04:04:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7985328C8FC; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:04:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GAhNLc7VWdrn; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7516128C927; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03D828C93E for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:04:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id biFqRSKdXVDx for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [82.118.211.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26C228C935 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 04:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.10.2] (82-203-162-146.dsl.gohome.fi [82.203.162.146]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0334516471E8; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 14:05:44 +0200 (EET) From: Timo Sirainen To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:05:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1202558744.3879.148.camel@hurina> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1672530112==" Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --===============1672530112== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-YbRmff8TX2uQ757a2Gmk" --=-YbRmff8TX2uQ757a2Gmk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 12:54 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Philip Van Hoof writes: > > When you want to retrieve the envelope of messages you want, on a=20 > > mobile with limited bandwidth capacity, to do this with a query that=20 > > has a small amount of columns to avoid consuming a lot of bandwidth. >=20 > This command does so with very few bytes: >=20 > a uid fetch x body.peek[header.fields (content-type)] All my messages contain Content-Type: multipart/signed, which doesn't help figuring out if it has attachments. --=-YbRmff8TX2uQ757a2Gmk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHrZcYyUhSUUBViskRAnPWAJ9SRKj26S9ZWS9Irfc+X/i9qTIb8gCgkSDc i+J5YDsyVGqbHyz1vxdTsiU= =QkLF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-YbRmff8TX2uQ757a2Gmk-- --===============1672530112== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --===============1672530112==-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 08:19:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C51A28C9AB; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.233 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.233 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.226, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fpw938MkTj7I; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD05328C985; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:19:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9C628C985 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:19:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rJmN5B5huH1B for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA04C28C962 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:21:13 +0000 Message-ID: <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:02:55 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org 7 people have replied to the questionnaire (including myself). Below are the results: Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Q1: Some questions regarding understanding of METADATA-SERVER > (draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt) extension (please answer to > each question with Yes (true) or No (false)) > > A). METADATA-SERVER depends on LIST-EXTENDED extension > (draft-ietf-imapext-list-extensions-18.txt). > B). METADATA-SERVER depends on ENABLE extension > (draft-gulbrandsen-imap-enable-05.txt). > C). A server implementing METADATA-SERVER must implement multiple > comparators. > D). METADATA-SERVER requires implementation of both .priv and .shared I am highly disappointed that most of the people got answers to this question wrong. Correct answers: A). No B). Yes C). No D). No > Q2: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery > mechanism: "Give me this body part in a format that I probably > understand" > (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or Undecided) > > Answers: > 1). No > 2). Yes, I am happy with Dave Cridland's proposal (see section 2.1 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or > ) > 3). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal > 4). Undecided Most of the people are in favor of 2. Some people were undecided, but not against it. So, I will be adding Dave's proposal to the next revision of CONVERT. > Q3: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery > mechanism: "What can I turn this body part into?" > (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or Undecided) > > Answers: > 1). No > 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 > of draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see > draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) > 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or > ) > 4). Yes, I prefer Arnt's proposal for advertising target MIME types > (or similar tokens) in the CAPABILITY response, e.g.: > > * CAPABILITY ... CONVERT=JPEG ... CONVERT=MP3 ... > > 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal > 6). Undecided Consensus on this question was rough: 2 people were against this (choice 1). Everybody else were in favor of one of the yes choices (2, 3 or 4). Among these people, majority preferred choice 3, with choices 2 and 4 both being the second favorite choice. So I think we will go with Dan's proposal. > Q4: Should CONVERT support discovery of available conversion > parameters for a particular conversion? > (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or > Undecided) Note that a separate question is asking if discovery should > be optional or mandatory for servers to implement. > > Answers: > 1). No, reporting that a particular conversion parameter is not > supported (see CONVERT draft) is sufficient > 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 > of draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see > draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) > 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of > draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or > ) > 4). Yes, I would prefer to list available conversion parameters upon a > CONVERT command failure caused by an unrecognized conversion > parameter, for example: > > C: b002 CONVERT 2 ("text/plain" ("mumble" "hrrr")) > (BINARY[3] BODYPARTSTRUCTURE[3]) > S: * 2 CONVERTED (tag "b002") (BODYPARTSTRUCTURE[3] > (ERROR "Parameter mumble is not supported for text/plain" > BADPARAMETERS > "text/html" "text/plain" ("mumble" "hrrr"))) > S: * CONVERSIONS "text/html" "text/plain" "charset" > "UNKNOWN-CHARACTER-REPLACEMENT" > S: b002 OK Some conversions failed > 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal > 6). Undecided Consensus on this question was even more rough. One person was against this (i.e. choice 1). Choices 3 and 4 had about equal number of votes (counting peoples second choices), so I think I will need to poll people again to confirm which one of those two they prefer. > Q5: If you answered Yes to Q4: should the conversion parameter > discovery be Mandatory or Optional for servers to support? Most people thought that it should be mandatory. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 10:49:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7665D3A680E; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:49:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.563, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 59Vgt1TZE6Se; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89993A684D; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:49:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FBE3A6828 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZRWqK2mErFM for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A747D3A684D for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:50:45 +0000 Message-ID: <47ADF5CF.8000302@isode.com> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:49:51 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] Comments on draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-01.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > 4. Example Exchanges [...] > Note that the data here does not contain a NUL octet, therefore a > literla - not literal8 - syntax has been used. typo: literal > 5. Formal Syntax [...] > urldata-ext = SP url-full [url-metadata] SP (nstring / literal8) > ; Note that content is always returned. > ; If the content contains a NUL octet, the server MUST use literal8. > ; Otherwise, the server SHOULD use nstring syntax. > I think the extension need to be changed to allow returning only BODYPARTSTRUCTURE without returning the body part itself, as we have no idea how URLAUTH URLs might be used in the future. If a client issuing URLFETCH discovers that it doesn't like BODYPARTSTRUCTURE for some reason, it would either have to download and ignore the whole body part, or it would have to kill the connection. So I think this is a bad design choice. [...] > urldata-ext = SP url-full [url-metadata] SP (nstring / literal8) > ; Note that content is always returned. > ; If the content contains a NUL octet, the server MUST use literal8. > ; Otherwise, the server SHOULD use nstring syntax. > > url-metadata = 1*(SP "(" url-metadata-el ")") > > url-metadata-el = "BODYPARTSTRUCTURE" SP body / "BINARY" None of the examples in section 4 contain "BINARY" marker in extended URLFETCH responses. The marker is needed, as otherwise a client receiving URFETCH response can't reliably tell if returned data is binary, but doesn't contain NULs, or if it is base64 encoded. So I think examples need to be fixed. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 11:02:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A265B3A694C; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:02:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.491, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zRwfj6WRAkr4; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB213A67FF; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:02:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1E73A63EC for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:02:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X4TU4FiR7G8N for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5893A68B8 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 19:03:31 +0000 Message-ID: <47ADF8CD.2030808@isode.com> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:02:37 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Glenn Parsons References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Glenn, Glenn Parsons wrote: > Folks, > > As we indicated in Vancouver, we have been working to schedule a joint = > workshop with OMA MEM to do a final joint analysis of LEMONADE Profile = > bis and the OMA MEM RD/AD/TS. The goal is to reach a mutual = > understanding that LEMONADE has covered their requirements and to = > identify any issues or possible future work items. We did this before = > near the start of the Profile bis work, so the time is right to do it = > again as we are about to conclude. > > We had hoped to fit this in in January or February, however the = > scheduling did not work out. The current proposal is that this = > workshop will happen in Philadelphia on March 14th. This will be in = > addition to any LEMONADE meeting during IETF. As we are still trying = > to secure meeting space, this is not yet an official announcement=85 > > But please keep this Friday workshop in mind when making your travel = > plans. > Draft IETF meeting agenda just got posted and the second Lemonade slot = is on Friday morning. Should it be moved to another day, or can we just have the joint = workshop in this slot? _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 9 12:10:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F243A687D; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:09:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.227, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id chR0ncEp89tm; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255B33A6852; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:09:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4053A6852 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:09:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeVXEsxhYAVi for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238FF3A67AE for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5C44AC8C for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:11:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202587881-88653-154; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:11:21 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:11:21 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Further comment. You can find the messages with attachment fairly efficiently using a two-step process. First, you get rid of most of the messages without attachments: a uid search or header content-type multipart header content-disposition attachment If something is not in the search result for this, you know it doesn't have an attachment. Messages which match this search may have an attachment, but since some other messages also match it, you have to look at this smaller set in more detail to be sure: b uid fetch (result set from a) bodystructure The bandwidth usage for this is proportional to the number of multipart messages. Now, I wish we had a better way to do this. I would prefer this: c uid fetch (result set from a) body.peek[*.header.fields (content-disposition)] but I don't really think an extension to support "*.header.fields" is worth the bother... do you? Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 09:28:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821053A6854; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:28:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.890, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QC3abAD276Wf; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CDE3A681D; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3933A681D for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:27:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tQPX4zR6rmoK for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084663A67B7 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B76B219F33; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:28:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5pRvsOv4Fvj8; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:28:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.113] (zeus.freax.org [86.39.154.65]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A65F219F2E; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:28:07 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:37:35 +0100 Message-Id: <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 21:11 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Further comment. > > You can find the messages with attachment fairly efficiently using a > two-step process. > > First, you get rid of most of the messages without attachments: [. cut .] Rather complex and bandwidth consuming method Why not an internal field like the INTERNALDATE telling me whether or not the message has an attachment in UID FETCH or FETCH? This is clearly an algorithm that the server, who has the content of the entire message, can better perform than the client. The client doesn't have the message's content, so it can't figure all this out unless it fetches all possible content and hints first. A search, a bodystructure (of a lot of messages if a lot messages are multipart -- most are, nowadays --), ... 20,000 messages are not rare nowadays. 20,000 messages multiplied with one kilobyte. Just to know whether or not the messages have attachments. Monetary seen (dollars, not bytes), that's actually expensive over GPRS. In contrast: 20,000 characters like '1' or '0' and maybe 10 characters more for the 'HASATTACH ': that's fine. That's still only a few extra kilobytes. Not yet megabytes (like bodystructure would do for 20,000). -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 10:15:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0953A67EF; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:15:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uzwSPGL20jwO; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64853A6817; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:15:29 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E213A67EF for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:15:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cLLAALzPVt4z for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE9C3A67E1 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED5125D10E; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:16:54 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0aIkI4YTcs6; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (unknown [10.0.1.2]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EA025D103; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:16:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:16:52 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Philip Van Hoof , Arnt Gulbrandsen Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Philip, --On February 10, 2008 1:37:35 PM +0100 Philip Van Hoof wrote: >> First, you get rid of most of the messages without attachments: > > [. cut .] Rather complex and bandwidth consuming method > > > Why not an internal field like the INTERNALDATE telling me whether or > not the message has an attachment in UID FETCH or FETCH? There is a significant cost in adding a new field to ENVELOPE. A better approach would be to define a new keyword $HasAttach. That keyword would be read-only - i.e. set by the server only. This requires no protocol extension - it just requires the server to set the keyword. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 10:35:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAD93A6801; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:35:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id owBbc6+h-3FB; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:35:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3893A6835; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:35:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7F33A6801 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:35:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nKJLf4b4E64 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladle.sendmail.com (ladle.sendmail.com [209.246.26.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 271113A67EF for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.sendmail.com (tls.sendmail.com [209.246.26.41]) by ladle.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.1/Sentrion-3.0.0) with ESMTP id m1AIb8PX009509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:37:08 -0800 Received: from lab.smi.sendmail.com ([10.210.100.93]) by spork.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id m1AIb8Vf013588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:37:09 -0800 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.2.2 spork.sendmail.com m1AIb8Vf013588 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:36:35 -0800 From: Philip Guenther X-X-Sender: guenther@lab.smi.sendmail.com To: Philip Van Hoof In-Reply-To: <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> Message-ID: <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MM-Ex-RefId: 149371::080210103710-105ABB90-03BF9F2C/0-0/99-17 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Philip Van Hoof wrote: .. > Why not an internal field like the INTERNALDATE telling me whether or > not the message has an attachment in UID FETCH or FETCH? > > This is clearly an algorithm that the server, who has the content of the > entire message, can better perform than the client. I keep expecting to see a pointer in this discussion to an openly published and universally agreed upon definition of the "has an attachment" algorithm. I have yet to see one. Does anyone have a pointer or can someone state it in pseudo-code? Philip Guenther _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 11:19:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256283A68DB; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.457 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.457 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6xtMrPYHZk9d; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C23B3A68D5; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3AA3A68D5 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNmp6ML9vXLg for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu (mxout5.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB6F3A68AD for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1AJLEI1020386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:21:15 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1AJLDwd013958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:21:14 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:21:13 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Philip Guenther In-Reply-To: <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> Message-ID: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 929 2008-02-08) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.2.10.110740 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Philip Guenther wrote: > I keep expecting to see a pointer in this discussion to an openly > published and universally agreed upon definition of the "has an > attachment" algorithm. I have yet to see one. Does anyone have a pointer > or can someone state it in pseudo-code? There is not such a thing, nor will there ever be such a thing; at least one which is reliably correctly implemented. Anyone who believes otherwise has failed to learn the lesson of the past 20+ years of IMAP: Clients can not rely upon correct server behavior. None of us like to admit it, but "IMAP compliance" is defined today by "works with Outlook" and not by any of the specifications we wrote. This, in turn, means that the only thing that you can assume will ever work in an IMAP server is what Outlook uses. If Outlook shows that the message "has an attachment" and your client does not, guess who get the bug report when the message demonstrably does has an attachment? It will do no good to say that your client is performing correctly, and it's a server bug. I'm sorry, but when I read threads like this I think about all the bug reports I deal with due to servers that don't deliver correct ENVELOPE and BODYSTRUCTURE, reject all but the most trivial SEARCH commands (or sometimes just reject SEARCH entirely), implement setting \Deleted as an EXPUNGE,... The list goes on and on. I didn't want to put examples in the IMAP specification, but was forced to do so anyway. The very thing that I feared happened: there are servers that implement the syntax according to the examples instead of the syntax rules. Not only that, but these servers are the expensive "professional quality" servers from Very Big Vendors. Specification compliance is largely the domain of a few freeware open source servers. And anyone honestly believes that these same servers are somehow going to answer "has an attachment" questions correctly? In a perfect world, it would be a great idea to have an flag indicating that there are attachments. We live in a very flawed world. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 12:04:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641723A68C8; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOin8dZ+bUHu; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8899E3A67AF; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AB43A67AF for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H445e2zHzjU3 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76BE3A63CA for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026F84AC83 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:29:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202588965-88653-166; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:29:25 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:29:25 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov writes: >> Q3: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery >> mechanism: "What can I turn this body part into?" (feel free to >> select multiple answers, unless you answer No or Undecided) >> >> Answers: >> 1). No >> 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 >> of draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see >> draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) >> 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of >> draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or >> ) >> 4). Yes, I prefer Arnt's proposal for advertising target MIME types >> (or similar tokens) in the CAPABILITY response, e.g.: >> >> * CAPABILITY ... CONVERT=JPEG ... CONVERT=MP3 ... >> >> 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal >> 6). Undecided > > Consensus on this question was rough: > > 2 people were against this (choice 1). Everybody else were in favor of > one of the yes choices (2, 3 or 4). Among these people, majority > preferred choice 3, with choices 2 and 4 both being the second > favorite choice. Two votes for 1, one for 2, three for 3 and one for 4? Rough indeed. > So I think we will go with Dan's proposal. I kind of like Dan's proposal, but if listing a conversion is a promise, then it's a hard one to keep. Even if my code supports TIFF or Flash it may not be able to convert a particular TIFF or Flash file to the desired format. And IIRC Dan's proposal ignores all the attachments that are sent with c-t application/octet-stream. Artn _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 12:04:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C7B3A68A2; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.192, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgLT0B5dksK4; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECD53A68A8; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572FB3A67AF for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gUCT5wzYl4QE for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77003A67A9 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9C54AC5E for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:30:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202650231-88653-326; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:30:31 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:30:31 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Philip Van Hoof writes: > On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 21:11 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> Further comment. >> >> You can find the messages with attachment fairly efficiently using a >> two-step process. >> >> First, you get rid of most of the messages without attachments: > > [. cut .] Rather complex and bandwidth consuming method How so? It's O(n*m), where n is the number of messages you need to consider and m is the frequency of multiparts. In a sane client, n is either the number of new messages, or the number of messages the user interacts with. > Why not an internal field like the INTERNALDATE telling me whether or > not the message has an attachment in UID FETCH or FETCH? Because you can set a flag according to whatever algorithm you want, and not have to come up with an standard algorithm for deciding what comprises an attachment and then wait for me and every other server author has to implement it. > This is clearly an algorithm that the server, who has the content of > the entire message, can better perform than the client. The same applies to \Answered, doesn't it? > The client doesn't have the message's content, so it can't figure all > this out unless it fetches all possible content and hints first. > > A search, a bodystructure (of a lot of messages if a lot messages are > multipart -- most are, nowadays --), ... 20,000 messages are not rare > nowadays. 20,000 messages multiplied with one kilobyte. Just to know > whether or not the messages have attachments. > > Monetary seen (dollars, not bytes), that's actually expensive over GPRS. ALL operations where you download information about all the messages in a mailbox and discard most of it are expensive. It doesn't matter whether you download 20,000 subject fields or 20,000 bodystructures: If you download 20,000 items and then display only 20, your client has wasted real money. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 12:10:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A4D3A68C8; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TAxbJsSak5OD; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A473A6890; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0453A6890 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KuBNHarBLAVi for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765A33A688D for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR4PM82XGW002OX9@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR26M7DOJ400004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:11:39 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:39:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:36:35 -0800" <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> To: Philip Guenther Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Philip Van Hoof wrote: > .. > > Why not an internal field like the INTERNALDATE telling me whether or > > not the message has an attachment in UID FETCH or FETCH? > > > > This is clearly an algorithm that the server, who has the content of the > > entire message, can better perform than the client. > I keep expecting to see a pointer in this discussion to an openly > published and universally agreed upon definition of the "has an > attachment" algorithm. I have yet to see one. Does anyone have a pointer > or can someone state it in pseudo-code? I'd settle for a pointer to a definition of what "has an attachment" actually means - the algorithm should be derivable from that. Like it or not, MIME provides a very general message structuring mechanism that isn't limited to the simplistc concept of "some text plus an attachment or two" or even "text plus an attatahccment or two with zero or more of these sorts of wrappers around it". Since MIME is extensible at any time there's no way to tell what the semantics of, say, a new multipart/foo type is. The place where the concept of "attachment" enters into the MIME picture is through disposition labels - you can, if you like, say that a given part has "attachment" semantics. Trouble is, a lot of stuff that pretty clearly is supposed to have attachment semantics isn't labelled this way. About the best you could do is to divide messages into threee piles: Those that clearly have parts with attachment semantics, those that probably don't (*), and those where it isn't clear. And Mark is of course correct in saying that the trickier the definition the more trouble you'll have getting servers to make the determination. But a definition is required before server capabilities even enter the picture. Ned (*) I routinely recieve messages containing a single US-ASCII part where that part is something like a configuration file and should have attachment semantics. I suspect I'm hardly alone in this. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 12:35:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC8A3A68A1; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7OqimAJv6eB; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43D3A68B2; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:26 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9669A3A6834 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQkU6nFmkRoe for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu (mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBBF3A6897 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.141] (may be forged)) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1AKaoDU016026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:36:50 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1AKamGI022636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:36:50 -0800 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:36:48 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Ned Freed In-Reply-To: <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Message-ID: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 929 2008-02-08) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.2.10.122310 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_600_699 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: Philip Guenther , lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, Ned Freed wrote: > The place where the concept of "attachment" enters into the MIME picture is > through disposition labels - you can, if you like, say that a given part has > "attachment" semantics. Trouble is, a lot of stuff that pretty clearly is > supposed to have attachment semantics isn't labelled this way. Don't forget certain IMAP servers that report disposition labels in body parts that have no such thing in the MIME headers. It is an evil world in which we live. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 13:02:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42393A68B6; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.142, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MSnLPPRVu5Ku; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBD43A6803; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D493A6801 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lt1e4q1p0izJ for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF5A3A67B3 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819B14AC1B; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:04:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202677450-88653-451; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:04:10 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:04:10 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Philip Guenther , Ned Freed Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Ned Freed writes: > I'd settle for a pointer to a definition of what "has an attachment" > actually means - the algorithm should be derivable from that. 2183? But some common message senders don't use 2183, so readers have to do more in practice. I use a five-step algorithm that works for most messages. Except that its results are arguably incorrect for forwarded messages, DSNs, some messages from (IIRC) Apple Mail and a few other odd and unusual classes ;) I still think this functionality is a death sentence a draft editor and not much better for server implementers. A client which wants this can apply whatever test it prefers and store the result in flags or locally. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 13:04:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751683A68B6; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:04:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ERfXe3ICD+iW; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1313A686B; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7445A3A686B for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:04:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FRQccRMSLzmg for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DBC3A67B3 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAFE4AC1B; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:05:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202677559-88653-455; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:05:59 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:05:58 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Philip Guenther , Ned Freed Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Oh sorry. The message arrived here misformatted and I misread it. Please disregard my previous reply. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 13:35:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409043A69D4; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:35:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y+IOANPLDiHi; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:35:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663A83A69C2; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:35:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F4CD3A69CC for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:35:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NZvrr22YRdzJ for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7275B3A69C2 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E734AC5B; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:37:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202679425-88653-459; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:37:05 +0100 Message-Id: <+qTHbeN+SMTms/eI8uja+g.md5@libertango.oryx.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:37:05 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Philip Guenther , Ned Freed Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen writes: > Ned Freed writes: >> I'd settle for a pointer to a definition of what "has an attachment" >> actually means - the algorithm should be derivable from that. > > 2183? Sorry, forget it. I mangled my mail and misread it and misresponded. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 10 15:49:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE713A6975; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:49:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.098, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ist2cOMskL9d; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60693A6976; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C083A6865 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:49:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiZh4rOYflsn for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE13F3A695C for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:48:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR4X9DFUMO003A63@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR26M7DOJ400004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:50:22 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MR4X9CDPFQ00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:02:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:04:10 +0100" References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <20080210095204.O58875@lab.smi.sendmail.com> <01MR4PM6WC5W00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Philip Guenther , Ned Freed Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > Ned Freed writes: > > I'd settle for a pointer to a definition of what "has an attachment" > > actually means - the algorithm should be derivable from that. > 2183? > But some common message senders don't use 2183, so readers have to do > more in practice. I use a five-step algorithm that works for most > messages. Except that its results are arguably incorrect for forwarded > messages, DSNs, some messages from (IIRC) Apple Mail and a few other > odd and unusual classes ;) Which is exactly the point I made - the proper indicator of attachment status isn't in wide enough use to be reliable. And beyond that this is basically guesswork. I'm having a hard time with the notion of building services on top of guesswork. > I still think this functionality is a death sentence a draft editor and > not much better for server implementers. A client which wants this can > apply whatever test it prefers and store the result in flags or > locally. Or for that matter it could be done by a Sieve script that examines the MIME structuure of the message and sets a flag. Implementation isn't the issue, design and deployment are. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 01:42:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0FC3A6AF0; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:42:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.244 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.244 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.681, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9zYzAodWRCC; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32243A6AC8; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:42:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB8013A6AD5 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:42:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mDjw1bXsx2kQ for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D093A6AC5 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC60EC8C4; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:34:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3v634tXdn36; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:34:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pvanhoof.freax.org [86.39.154.67]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC057219F4F; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:34:23 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:43:53 +0100 Message-Id: <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 14:30 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Philip Van Hoof writes: > > Why not an internal field like the INTERNALDATE telling me whether or > > not the message has an attachment in UID FETCH or FETCH? > Because you can set a flag according to whatever algorithm you want, and > not have to come up with an standard algorithm for deciding what > comprises an attachment and then wait for me and every other server > author has to implement it. I'll use poetry A mobile E-mail client the target of Lemonade is usually not the primary E-mail client. Outlook is. Outlook doesn't set this flag. Therefore the flag wont be set. It's the kind of reality we often hear from Mark. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 02:04:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A561C3A6808; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:04:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.415 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.415 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.978, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kvt-NgV8nXGj; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E863A6AEC; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:04:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA1F3A6AD4 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:04:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kW91RMh2MQbP for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D00E3A6AFC for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB8A4AC89 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:05:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1202724346-88653-626; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:05:46 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:05:46 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Philip Van Hoof writes: > I'll use poetry > > A mobile E-mail client > > the target of Lemonade > > is usually not the primary E-mail client. > > Outlook is. > > Outlook doesn't set this flag. > > Therefore > > the flag wont be set. That doesn't follow. Look at Thunderbird, which uses a similar approach for remembering whether a message is spam or not: If the flag Junk is set, the message is considered spam. If the flag nonjunk is set, the message is considered nonspam. If neither is set, Thunderbird looks closer, makes a decision and sets one flag. Outlook does not interfere with this. (Maybe it's $Junk/$Nonjunk. I don't remember. Some other client uses $junk/$nonjunk in the same way.) Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 02:23:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3CA3A6B1A; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:23:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.503, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MMaCyoHIWIjq; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C903A6B0A; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:23:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACB73A6B07 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:23:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MMXUdQqugcII for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6F03A6B0A for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C40EEC8C4; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:15:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WW1P6uHBbB6R; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:15:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pvanhoof.freax.org [86.39.154.67]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE8EEC85F; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:15:09 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:24:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 11:05 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > That doesn't follow. Look at Thunderbird, which uses a similar approach > for remembering whether a message is spam or not: If the flag Junk is > set, the message is considered spam. If the flag nonjunk is set, the > message is considered nonspam. If neither is set, Thunderbird looks > closer, makes a decision and sets one flag. Outlook does not interfere > with this. > > (Maybe it's $Junk/$Nonjunk. I don't remember. Some other client uses > $junk/$nonjunk in the same way.) Thunderbird is not a mobile E-mail client and therefore has the luxury of being allowed to consume megabytes of bandwidth just to feed its local anti-spam infrastructure with the message's content. A mobile client that when connected using an expensive network does spam detection by fetching message content locally, is one that is either designed by a bad architect or by a clever marketing guy. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 02:56:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4153A6B04; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:56:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y53ag+lQ4KsM; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16303A6ACB; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:56:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41463A6AD5 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:56:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bT77yco+xTZH for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E957D3A6895 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so3912080fgg.41 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.50.8 with SMTP id x8mr15012949fgx.61.1202727451476; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.82.11 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:57:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:57:31 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?DINH_Vi=EAt_Ho=E0?=" To: "Philip Van Hoof" In-Reply-To: <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6709ae5d4688a911 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 11, 2008 11:24 AM, Philip Van Hoof wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 11:05 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > > > That doesn't follow. Look at Thunderbird, which uses a similar approach > > for remembering whether a message is spam or not: If the flag Junk is > > set, the message is considered spam. If the flag nonjunk is set, the > > message is considered nonspam. If neither is set, Thunderbird looks > > closer, makes a decision and sets one flag. Outlook does not interfere > > with this. > > > > (Maybe it's $Junk/$Nonjunk. I don't remember. Some other client uses > > $junk/$nonjunk in the same way.) > > Thunderbird is not a mobile E-mail client and therefore has the luxury > of being allowed to consume megabytes of bandwidth just to feed its > local anti-spam infrastructure with the message's content. > > A mobile client that when connected using an expensive network does spam > detection by fetching message content locally, is one that is either > designed by a bad architect or by a clever marketing guy. Why not do an expensive request as Arnt Gulbrandsen was describing and cache the result locally on the mobile client ? By the way, I really think that IMAP sync is the way to go since it improves the user experience (no delay for cached messages). Regards, -- = DINH Vi=EAt Ho=E0 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 03:01:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0755A3A6B30; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:01:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n0LLqNYKtorM; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DA3A6B0D; 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Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:50:34 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: DINH =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vi=EAt_Ho=E0?= In-Reply-To: References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:00:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Ck9uIE1vbiwgMjAwOC0wMi0xMSBhdCAxMTo1NyArMDEwMCwgRElOSCBWacOqdCBIb8OgIHdyb3Rl OgoKPiBXaHkgbm90IGRvIGFuIGV4cGVuc2l2ZSByZXF1ZXN0IGFzIEFybnQgR3VsYnJhbmRzZW4g d2FzIGRlc2NyaWJpbmcgYW5kCj4gY2FjaGUgdGhlIHJlc3VsdCBsb2NhbGx5IG9uIHRoZSBtb2Jp bGUgY2xpZW50ID8KCllvdSBzdGlsbCBuZWVkIHRvIGRvIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBleHBlbnNpdmUgcmVx dWVzdC4KClRoZSBjbGllbnQgdGhhdCBJJ20gZGV2ZWxvcGluZyBpbmRlZWQgY2FjaGVzIGFzIG11 Y2ggYXMgaXQgY2FuIGxvY2FsbHksCmluY2x1ZGluZyB0aGUgYXR0YWNobWVudCBzdGF0ZS4KCj4g QnkgdGhlIHdheSwgSSByZWFsbHkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBJTUFQIHN5bmMgaXMgdGhlIHdheSB0byBn byBzaW5jZSBpdAo+IGltcHJvdmVzIHRoZSB1c2VyIGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgKG5vIGRlbGF5IGZvciBj YWNoZWQgbWVzc2FnZXMpLgoKQWxyZWFkeSB0aGUgY2FzZSBmb3IgdGhlIG1ham9yaXR5IG9mIEUt bWFpbCBjbGllbnRzLgoKRG9lc24ndCBjaGFuZ2UgdGhlIGZpcnN0IGV4cGVuc2l2ZSByZXF1ZXN0 LgoKCi0tIApQaGlsaXAgVmFuIEhvb2YsIGZyZWVsYW5jZSBzb2Z0d2FyZSBkZXZlbG9wZXIKaG9t ZTogbWUgYXQgcHZhbmhvb2YgZG90IGJlIApnbm9tZTogcHZhbmhvb2YgYXQgZ25vbWUgZG90IG9y ZyAKaHR0cDovL3B2YW5ob29mLmJlL2Jsb2cKaHR0cDovL2NvZGVtaW5kZWQuYmUKCgoKCl9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCmxlbW9uYWRlIG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdApsZW1vbmFkZUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbGVtb25hZGUKU3VwcGxlbWVudGFsIFdlYiBTaXRlOgpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnN0YW5kYXJk c3RyYWNrLmNvbS9pZXRmL2xlbW9uYWRl From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 03:09:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7613A6AD5; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.270, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2o8UVB5obW3; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098A23A6AF2; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AAD3A6ACB for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:09:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ih2J6O53-96V for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80703A6AD5 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so3915356fgg.41 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.78.4 with SMTP id a4mr15055448fgb.0.1202728275773; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.82.11 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:11:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:11:15 +0100 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?DINH_Vi=EAt_Ho=E0?=" To: "Philip Van Hoof" In-Reply-To: <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 87d1d79fe6a86815 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 11, 2008 12:00 PM, Philip Van Hoof wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 11:57 +0100, DINH Vi=EAt Ho=E0 wrote: > > > Why not do an expensive request as Arnt Gulbrandsen was describing and > > cache the result locally on the mobile client ? > > You still need to do the first expensive request. > > The client that I'm developing indeed caches as much as it can locally, > including the attachment state. To avoid the first expensive request, you can avoid doing that first expensive request. For example, you could fetch only the n most recent messages (people's usual interest) and fetch the others when the user requests them (see iPhone user interface for Mail for reference). > > By the way, I really think that IMAP sync is the way to go since it > > improves the user experience (no delay for cached messages). > > Already the case for the majority of E-mail clients. note that thunderbird has a delay when trying to open a locally cached mail= box. some operations will block on a network request. -- = DINH Vi=EAt Ho=E0 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 03:20:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23EB13A6B1E; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:20:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.783, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QrIetIRbIj-6; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C7213A6B07; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:20:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5763A6ABF for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:20:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asEIqt0oyGT4 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005203A6AFC for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1BBLhww011858; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:07 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:04 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:04 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:19 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: AchsnbBf7Kcq6slwSzir5tSgETIT2wAAlqXA References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf><1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf><1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf><1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2008 11:22:04.0502 (UTC) FILETIME=[544DEF60:01C86CA0] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org >On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 11:57 +0100, DINH Vi=EAt Ho=E0 wrote: > >> Why not do an expensive request as Arnt Gulbrandsen was = >describing and = >> cache the result locally on the mobile client ? > >You still need to do the first expensive request. Just a though (and an attempt to generalize this problem): would it be poss= ible to create a SIEVE extension that can execute certain IMAP commands on = the deposited email and based on the result add the desired header-field(s)= to it? _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 11 04:52:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25AD33A6B9C; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:52:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R4Xetx9K4zkj; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:52:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEDB3A6B28; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:52:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2443F3A6B6E for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:52:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSScpEJ8uFDx for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D54A3A6B24 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:52:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR5OMCCJ2O003W2Z@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR26M7DOJ400004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:53:32 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:20:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:22:19 +0200" References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > Just a though (and an attempt to generalize this problem): would it be > possible to create a SIEVE extension that can execute certain IMAP commands on > the deposited email and based on the result add the desired header-field(s) to > it? The answer is no, for at least two reasons. First and foremost, once a message is in the store it is supposed to be immutable so adding headers is definitely not allowed. The only alternative would be to replace existing messages with an entirely new one. And people with local client caches are absolutely going to love that if it happens. This restriction is clearly specified in section 3.8 of draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-04.txt, which says: Even if the [EditHeader] extension is available, since messages in IMAP mailboxes are immutable these actions are NOT applicable. Use of these MUST result in an error condition that will terminate the Sieve script. Explanation: Using them for flag or annotation changes to existing messages would cause the message to be changed. Using them for APPEND, MULTIAPPEND, and COPY would cause unexpected differences in the stored copy as compared to what the client expected, and would make the client's message cache invalid unexpectedly. Second, Sieve is a filtering language designed to operate on messages at or around the time of final delivery. Generalizing Sieve to act on other message flows, such as messages being added or moved around in the store is OK (and already in the process of being specified), but adding capabilities to actually create message flows of its own lies far outside what Sieve is designed for and is entirely inappropriate. The closest Sieve can come to doing what you're asking for here would be to create the necessary flow external to Sieve and then use flags, annnotations (no extension for that yet but one could be added), extra copies placed in additional folders, or even message deletion to communicate the result of filtering. But modulo the specification of a annotation extension and perhaps a short informational RFC saying how one might apply Sieve to an arbitrary message flow, all of this is really more of an implementation/operational issue, not a standardization issue. Heck, we've been using Sieve this way for years in our product. But if header additions/modifications are required I think the only sensible approach is to use Sieve to make the necessary modifications on final delivery. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From pbeyer@avis.com Tue Feb 12 12:30:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6261C28C4F8 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:30:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -54.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-54.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_TR=0.935, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KcJJ6ZfeNN71 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl.static851056014.ttnet.net.tr (unknown [85.105.60.14]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 95B2D28C50E for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [42.60.142.115] (helo=leh) by dsl.static851056014.ttnet.net.tr with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1JP2d-0002Ye-SR; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:35:55 +0200 Message-ID: <47B2020F.5010701@avis.com> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:31:11 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade-archive@ietf.org Subject: Love You Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You Stay In My Heart http://moonstarfood.com/ From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 12 12:58:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EEE28C524; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:58:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.668, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnnunSATsul4; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E1328C44C; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:57:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232F428C4D2 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:57:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LsrmzaYYbzof for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570F428C47B for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:59:20 +0000 Message-ID: <47B2085E.30501@isode.com> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:58:06 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I've just posted version -14. Note, that it doesn't address all results of the CONVERT poll. So version -15 will be coming shortly. Changes in version 14: 1). Removed METADATA-SERVER related text. 2). Added Dave's and Dan's proposals. Dan's proposal is missing ABNF, while Dave's proposal is missing some extra normative text. 3). Addressed editorial comments from Zoltan and Dan. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 12 13:00:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E0D28CCF7; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:00:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SicPA0JkspX3; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE0D28C56B; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:00:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 63DFD28C4E9; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:00:00 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080212210001.63DFD28C4E9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:00:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP CONVERT extension Author(s) : A. Melnikov, P. Coates Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2008-02-12 CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its settings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-12125232.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-14.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-12125232.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 13 01:41:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93D03A6E41; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:41:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.873 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.436, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LL220YqKWL44; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0D728C119; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:41:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA8F3A6CD8 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:41:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mx0k15-IvXsw for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3AB28C119 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1D9gOxi031891; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:42:40 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:41:50 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:41:50 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:42:05 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: AchsrSBHMlZUxvYzSPWtO52Nn64opQBdiF0Q References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2008 09:41:50.0550 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8892F60:01C86E24] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ned, SIEVE was just an idea to throw in - since it allow You to manage messages = as they are placed into the mailbox. I don't know much about server impleme= ntation, but it looked like a good place to add the necessary header field = for me. What exactly do You mean by "final delivery"? Whenever the client pulls down the header of a message? If the header field cannot be done when the msg is received, can it be done= when the msg is sent (the msgs _are_ changed then - for example, when they= are signed). Thanks. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: ext Ned Freed [mailto:ned.freed@mrochek.com] = >Sent: 11 February, 2008 14:20 >To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >Cc: spam@pvanhoof.be; dinh.viet.hoa@free.fr; lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" = >status of a message > >> Just a though (and an attempt to generalize this problem): = >would it be = >> possible to create a SIEVE extension that can execute certain IMAP = >> commands on the deposited email and based on the result add the = >> desired header-field(s) to it? > >The answer is no, for at least two reasons. First and = >foremost, once a message is in the store it is supposed to be = >immutable so adding headers is definitely not allowed. The = >only alternative would be to replace existing messages with an = >entirely new one. And people with local client caches are = >absolutely going to love that if it happens. > >This restriction is clearly specified in section 3.8 of = >draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-04.txt, which says: > > Even if the [EditHeader] extension is available, since messages in > IMAP mailboxes are immutable these actions are NOT applicable. Use > of these MUST result in an error condition that will terminate the > Sieve script. Explanation: Using them for flag or = >annotation changes > to existing messages would cause the message to be changed. Using > them for APPEND, MULTIAPPEND, and COPY would cause unexpected > differences in the stored copy as compared to what the client > expected, and would make the client's message cache invalid > unexpectedly. > >Second, Sieve is a filtering language designed to operate on = >messages at or around the time of final delivery. Generalizing = >Sieve to act on other message flows, such as messages being = >added or moved around in the store is OK (and already in the = >process of being specified), but adding capabilities to = >actually create message flows of its own lies far outside what = >Sieve is designed for and is entirely inappropriate. > >The closest Sieve can come to doing what you're asking for = >here would be to create the necessary flow external to Sieve = >and then use flags, annnotations (no extension for that yet = >but one could be added), extra copies placed in additional = >folders, or even message deletion to communicate the result of = >filtering. But modulo the specification of a annotation = >extension and perhaps a short informational RFC saying how one = >might apply Sieve to an arbitrary message flow, all of this is = >really more of an implementation/operational issue, not a = >standardization issue. Heck, we've been using Sieve this way = >for years in our product. > >But if header additions/modifications are required I think the = >only sensible approach is to use Sieve to make the necessary = >modifications on final delivery. > > Ned > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 13 15:50:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B943A6D6E; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:50:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyMhTqQr1tzE; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498883A6FC4; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE73F3A6D73 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AKnMLnLRra1K for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CFA3A6D6E for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:49:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR946GACS0003RFQ@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR6KPYSL8000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:51:12 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:42:05 +0200" References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > Hi Ned, > SIEVE was just an idea to throw in - since it allow You to manage messages as > they are placed into the mailbox. I don't know much about server > implementation, but it looked like a good place to add the necessary header > field for me. It's "good" only in the sense that the operation can be performed there and the necessary machinery (Sieve) already exists. But this still doesn't answer the question of whether or not this entire approach makes sense to standardize or even document - I'm still waiting for a reasonable specification for what it means to "have an attachment". > What exactly do You mean by "final delivery"? I'm have to say I'm a bit flabbergasted that you would ask such a question. The term "final delivery" has been used to refer to the point where messages leave the transport infrastucture for well over 25 years. Indeed, this term is so commonly used and so well understood that Dave Crocker's new email architecture document uses it but doesn't bother to define it. (I guess maybe it needs to... Dave, take note.) It is also used in RFCs [2]821, [2]822, the NOTARY specification, the Sieve specifications, and many many many others. > Whenever the client pulls down the header of a message? No, this is simply a retrieving a stored message, nothing more and nothing less. The message has to have left the transport infrastructure before anything like this can happen. And what we call this or similar operations is irrelevant. One of the key guarantees IMAP provides is that messages the store receives are immutable. The store doesn't modify them in any way, and clients can be and frequently are written to take advantage of this property. Any store that violates it - and some have - will inevitably run into all sorts of interoperability issues. > If the header field cannot be done when the msg is received, can it be done > when the msg is sent (the msgs _are_ changed then - for example, when they are > signed). There are various schools of thought about whether or not it is OK for modifications to occur to in-transit messages, ranging from those who think pretty much anything goes to those who see any changes beyond the prepending of trace headers as flatly unacceptable. But regardless of the treatment of in-transit messages, there seems to be fairly broad agreement that modification at the boundaries of the transport system, that is, during submission and final delivery, is OK. However, submission to the transport infrastructure occurs within the administrative domain of the message originator, which often isn't the same as that of the recipient. This means that submission is not something the recipient's system has any control over. OTOH, it is axiomatic that final delivery occurs within the administrative domain of the recipient. And since messages can be modified at this point (but not later), it's the last opportunity to add or change header fields. After that some other mechanism such as a flag or annotation has to be used. I should also point out the other issue with this: Final delivery only applies to messages that have been submitted for transport. It doesn't apply to messages clients insert into the store directly. In this case the message is immutable once it leaves the client and even if you implement Sieve processing at this point its results cannot be conveyed by adding a header field. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 01:27:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A2B3A7067; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:27:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.471, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jKJcZNNw+8EJ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8ECF3A702B; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:27:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D6B3A702B for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:27:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tz+k7ir9-aZ9 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7333A6F44 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1E9SY89021667; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:28:56 +0200 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:28:28 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:28:28 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:28:41 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: Achum12OUX2gTcjkQw+QuVxKTWvTQAAT6R1g References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2008 09:28:28.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4BCC140:01C86EEB] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ned, thank You for taking the time and explaining it. I have one more suggestion: a flag? Those are flipped on an off all the tim= e. The server could flip in a /attachment any time. I do not have 20 years = of email client/server implemention experience behind me, so please excuse = me if this is "yet another bad idea". Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: ext Ned Freed [mailto:ned.freed@mrochek.com] = >Sent: 13 February, 2008 22:06 >To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >Cc: ned.freed@mrochek.com; spam@pvanhoof.be; lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: RE: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" = >status of a message > >> Hi Ned, > >> SIEVE was just an idea to throw in - since it allow You to manage = >> messages as they are placed into the mailbox. I don't know = >much about = >> server implementation, but it looked like a good place to add the = >> necessary header field for me. > >It's "good" only in the sense that the operation can be = >performed there and the necessary machinery (Sieve) already = >exists. But this still doesn't answer the question of whether = >or not this entire approach makes sense to standardize or even = >document - I'm still waiting for a reasonable specification = >for what it means to "have an attachment". > >> What exactly do You mean by "final delivery"? > >I'm have to say I'm a bit flabbergasted that you would ask = >such a question. The term "final delivery" has been used to = >refer to the point where messages leave the transport = >infrastucture for well over 25 years. Indeed, this term is so = >commonly used and so well understood that Dave Crocker's new = >email architecture document uses it but doesn't bother to = >define it. (I guess maybe it needs to... >Dave, take note.) It is also used in RFCs [2]821, [2]822, the = >NOTARY specification, the Sieve specifications, and many many = >many others. > >> Whenever the client pulls down the header of a message? > >No, this is simply a retrieving a stored message, nothing more = >and nothing less. The message has to have left the transport = >infrastructure before anything like this can happen. > >And what we call this or similar operations is irrelevant. One = >of the key guarantees IMAP provides is that messages the store = >receives are immutable. The store doesn't modify them in any = >way, and clients can be and frequently are written to take = >advantage of this property. Any store that violates it - and = >some have - will inevitably run into all sorts of = >interoperability issues. > >> If the header field cannot be done when the msg is received, = >can it be = >> done when the msg is sent (the msgs _are_ changed then - for = >example, = >> when they are signed). > >There are various schools of thought about whether or not it = >is OK for modifications to occur to in-transit messages, = >ranging from those who think pretty much anything goes to = >those who see any changes beyond the prepending of trace = >headers as flatly unacceptable. But regardless of the = >treatment of in-transit messages, there seems to be fairly = >broad agreement that modification at the boundaries of the = >transport system, that is, during submission and final delivery, is OK. > >However, submission to the transport infrastructure occurs = >within the administrative domain of the message originator, = >which often isn't the same as that of the recipient. This = >means that submission is not something the recipient's system = >has any control over. OTOH, it is axiomatic that final = >delivery occurs within the administrative domain of the = >recipient. And since messages can be modified at this point = >(but not later), it's the last opportunity to add or change = >header fields. After that some other mechanism such as a flag = >or annotation has to be used. > >I should also point out the other issue with this: Final = >delivery only applies to messages that have been submitted for = >transport. It doesn't apply to messages clients insert into = >the store directly. In this case the message is immutable once = >it leaves the client and even if you implement Sieve = >processing at this point its results cannot be conveyed by = >adding a header field. > > Ned > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 01:33:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F83928CCC6; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:33:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hdy+ZyDcMMeb; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E128C8A5; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:33:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596823A7067 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:33:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zim0pL8-6uhj for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8C43A6F44 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF5FEC978; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:24:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNIar4zDECiX; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:24:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pvanhoof.freax.org [86.39.154.67]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FD2EC838; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:24:38 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Ned Freed In-Reply-To: <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:34:13 +0100 Message-Id: <1202981653.7110.8.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 12:05 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: > There are various schools of thought about whether or not it is OK for > modifications to occur to in-transit messages, ranging from those who think > pretty much anything goes to those who see any changes beyond the prepending of > trace headers as flatly unacceptable. But regardless of the treatment of > in-transit messages, there seems to be fairly broad agreement that modification > at the boundaries of the transport system, that is, during submission and final > delivery, is OK. Letting the IMAP server add a "X-Has-Attachment: Yes" header or perhaps even a Has-IMAP-Attachment to specify that it was the IMAP server who added it, works for me as client developer (if I can BODY.PEEK that in the HEADERS). It doesn't have to be an internal variable like internaldate. I'm not against letting the IMAP server add headers. In fact I would even be in favour of letting the IMAP server make sure that the structure of the messages is guaranteed to be alright and things like that. If that makes IMAP a more reliable store, by precisely specifying and guaranteeing its behaviour, then that makes IMAP a better standard in my opinion. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 07:06:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC3928CF05; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:06:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4A8QNJsBoEAq; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A45528CF78; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC0228CF99 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opk9duauxcPc for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F2728CF47 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:05:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MRA05YJ4CG004D7M@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:07:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR6KPYSL8000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:07:05 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MRA05XDQC000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:59:21 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:28:41 +0200" References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > I have one more suggestion: a flag? Those are flipped on an off all the time. > The server could flip in a /attachment any time. Yes, either a flag or an annotation could be used. Flags have the advantage of being defined in the base protocol and there's already a Sieve extension to set them. So you could use a delivery- and append-time sieve scripts to set this flag and not need any additional capabities beyond stuff that's already being worked on. But this now gets into the issues Mark was talking about in regards to server limitations and extension support. And we're still no closer to a clear understanding of what this bit really means and when to set it. And this brings us back to my question: What needs standardizing here? Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 07:11:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A6228CFBA; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.540, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrU6epIHamAm; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E63928CF56; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5868728CE0D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:11:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d0FRrXBsf9BB for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [135.245.0.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704F028CF35 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilexp03.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-50.lucent.com [135.3.39.50]) by ihemail2.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id m1EFCcai004046; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:13:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com ([135.3.39.8]) by ilexp03.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:12:48 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:12:42 -0600 Message-ID: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE190B73BF@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <01MRA05XDQC000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: AchvG2FtRp5YeByjTLy7W+pw+iIZ9wAAEOxw References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf><1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf><1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf><1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf><1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf><01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com><01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MRA05XDQC000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M \(Greg\)" To: "Ned Freed" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2008 15:12:48.0750 (UTC) FILETIME=[0F5BC8E0:01C86F1C] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.35 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org The has_attachment flag is purely a UI advisory. We need to standardize the name of the flag, and leave it to the server administrator and client to iterate to a meaning. To Marks's point this is one that may change over time. The quality of the advisory becomes a service differentiator, not an issue of interoperability. Interoperability is limited to the client being able to identify and interpret the flag set by the server. Greg V. -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ned Freed Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:59 AM To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Cc: lemonade@ietf.org; ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message > I have one more suggestion: a flag? Those are flipped on an off all the time. > The server could flip in a /attachment any time. Yes, either a flag or an annotation could be used. Flags have the advantage of being defined in the base protocol and there's already a Sieve extension to set them. So you could use a delivery- and append-time sieve scripts to set this flag and not need any additional capabities beyond stuff that's already being worked on. But this now gets into the issues Mark was talking about in regards to server limitations and extension support. And we're still no closer to a clear understanding of what this bit really means and when to set it. And this brings us back to my question: What needs standardizing here? Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 07:52:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCAF28D071; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.634, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVmRXTlDmHjj; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E0128D034; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8081428D05E for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:52:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3AOVhzM1xiF for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6746428D020 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:52:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MRA1RSUB00004D7M@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR6KPYSL8000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:53:41 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MRA1RQ6V5M00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:48:41 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:34:13 +0100" <1202981653.7110.8.camel@schtrumpf> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <1202981653.7110.8.camel@schtrumpf> To: Philip Van Hoof Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Ned Freed , Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 12:05 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: > > There are various schools of thought about whether or not it is OK for > > modifications to occur to in-transit messages, ranging from those who think > > pretty much anything goes to those who see any changes beyond the prepending of > > trace headers as flatly unacceptable. But regardless of the treatment of > > in-transit messages, there seems to be fairly broad agreement that modification > > at the boundaries of the transport system, that is, during submission and final > > delivery, is OK. > Letting the IMAP server add a "X-Has-Attachment: Yes" header or perhaps > even a Has-IMAP-Attachment to specify that it was the IMAP server who > added it, works for me as client developer (if I can BODY.PEEK that in > the HEADERS). You won't be nearly as happy a client developer when this leads to inconsistencies in message sizes and causes interop problems. > It doesn't have to be an internal variable like internaldate. I'm not > against letting the IMAP server add headers. In fact I would even be in > favour of letting the IMAP server make sure that the structure of the > messages is guaranteed to be alright and things like that. I'm sorry, but what you are for or against isn't relevant in this case. This is black letter protocol design: IMAP guarantees that message content is immutable and clients are written to depend on this being the case. > If that makes IMAP a more reliable store, by precisely specifying and > guaranteeing its behaviour, then that makes IMAP a better standard in my > opinion. What makes IMAP reliable is that it's behavior is already precisely and reliably defined: It doesn't change message content. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 17:40:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EF73A692C; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:40:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fcAOrrwlokkr; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404A53A6986; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:40:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980673A6922 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Libxly1esl0P for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (unknown [86.39.152.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8513A692C for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A83EC9A1; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:32:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1NswLs7TBKIG; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:32:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.113] (zeus.freax.org [86.39.154.65]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B28EC991; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:32:02 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Ned Freed In-Reply-To: <01MRA1RQ6V5M00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <1202981653.7110.8.camel@schtrumpf> <01MRA1RQ6V5M00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:41:39 +0100 Message-Id: <1203039699.6623.2.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 07:48 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 12:05 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: > > Letting the IMAP server add a "X-Has-Attachment: Yes" header or perhaps > > even a Has-IMAP-Attachment to specify that it was the IMAP server who > > added it, works for me as client developer (if I can BODY.PEEK that in > > the HEADERS). > > You won't be nearly as happy a client developer when this leads to > inconsistencies in message sizes and causes interop problems. Sure, and perhaps you are right. Therefore letting the IMAP server set a \$HasAttachment flag is probably a better idea. Works for me too. -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 14 18:06:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7726E3A694F; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.094 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.709, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s+qLJp00avyy; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38F93A6847; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAB83A6847 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7CD0E9kk4bW for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214A53A6843 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:06:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MRAN7UDH3K004EDN@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MR6KPYSL8000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:07:32 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MRAN7S94S400004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:53:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:12:42 -0600" <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE190B73BF@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> <1202647055.8450.86.camel@schtrumpf> <1202723033.7062.19.camel@schtrumpf> <1202725480.7062.45.camel@schtrumpf> <1202727604.7062.47.camel@schtrumpf> <01MR5OMBL7JY00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MR946EKZHA00004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <01MRA05XDQC000004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE190B73BF@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> To: Vaudreuil Greg M Greg Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Ned Freed Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > The has_attachment flag is purely a UI advisory. We need to standardize > the name of the flag, and leave it to the server administrator and > client to iterate to a meaning. So the proposal is to write a short RFC saying "if you want a way to tell clients whether or not a message has an attachment - whatever that means - use this flag". I would characterize such a specification as Mostly Harmless, I guess. I do predict some measure of difficulty getting such a specification approved absent at least a basic definition of what it means for a message to have an attachment. > To Marks's point this is one that may change over time. Um, I think that was one of my points, not Mark's. If I understand Mark's point correctly (and Mark please correct me if I don't) he sees all of this as a waste of time since too many server implementors aren't bothering to properly implement more basic parts of the IMAP specification, let alone all these myriad extensions we're now discussing. So like it or not, clients have to be prepared to do all the heavy lifting themselves. > The quality of the advisory becomes a service differentiator, not an > issue of interoperability. Interoperability is limited to the client > being able to identify and interpret the flag set by the server. Greg, I'm afraid that on this one I have to side with Mark. I see very little evidence that anyone is basing implementation selection decisions on the general availability of these sorts of features. To the extent that features are used as a selection criteria, it's invariably the specific features someone thinks they need in the very short term, irrespective of what those features are. This is the main reason I rarely participate in profile discussions - I fail to see the point. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 03:01:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C2528D016; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:01:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.404, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8OGog8vkskf5; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83A83A6A79; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:01:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADB53A6A79 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:01:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k9LZXrhlM80g for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D893A6A1A for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:02:19 +0000 Message-ID: <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:49:11 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >Alexey Melnikov writes: > >>>Q3: Should CONVERT support the following conversion discovery >>>mechanism: "What can I turn this body part into?" (feel free to >>>select multiple answers, unless you answer No or Undecided) >>> >>> Answers: >>> 1). No >>> 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 >>> of draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see >>> draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) >>> 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of >>> draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or >>> ) >>> 4). Yes, I prefer Arnt's proposal for advertising target MIME types >>> (or similar tokens) in the CAPABILITY response, e.g.: >>> >>> * CAPABILITY ... CONVERT=JPEG ... CONVERT=MP3 ... >>> >>> 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal >>> 6). Undecided >>> >>> >>Consensus on this question was rough: >> >>2 people were against this (choice 1). Everybody else were in favor of >>one of the yes choices (2, 3 or 4). Among these people, majority >>preferred choice 3, with choices 2 and 4 both being the second >>favorite choice. >> >Two votes for 1, one for 2, three for 3 and one for 4? Rough indeed. > Actually, it was 2 votes for 1, 2 votes for 2, 3 votes for 3, 1 vote for 4. And I've made a mistake: 8 people answered to my poll request. On top of that, one person specified 3 as the second preferred choice. >>So I think we will go with Dan's proposal. >> >> >I kind of like Dan's proposal, but if listing a conversion is a promise, >then it's a hard one to keep. Even if my code supports TIFF or Flash it >may not be able to convert a particular TIFF or Flash file to the >desired format. > I had an offline conversation with Philip van Hoof and he convinced me that we need a way to discover available conversions for a specific body part. So, unless somebody objects, I will also be adding a new CONVERT data item for requesting a list of available conversions. >And IIRC Dan's proposal ignores all the attachments that are sent with >c-t application/octet-stream. > > I don't think this is true. Surely a server can respond: C: a CONVERSIONS "application/octet-stream" "*" S: * CONVERSION "application/octet-stream" "image/jpeg" ("width" "height" "depth" "interlaced") ...... S: a OK CONVERSIONS completed _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 04:06:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD463A6AA1; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:06:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.295 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.858, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HMM8Xlrmkj8w; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88583A6A82; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:06:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31273A6A64 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:06:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2E14I8lgvcwZ for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E99D3A6ADD for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55B64AC6A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:07:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203077226-86303-49; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:07:06 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:07:06 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov writes: > I had an offline conversation with Philip van Hoof and he convinced me > that we need a way to discover available conversions for a specific > body part. I can see why. I remain unconvinced that we need more than one target format for any given data domain, though. > So, unless somebody objects, I will also be adding a new CONVERT data > item for requesting a list of available conversions. Good. Add some wording about performance and semantics. If the server says it can translate 4.2.4 to x/y, is the conversion allowed to fail later? Sometimes you only discover very late that a particular conversion isn't possible, so if the server is to discover a _real_ list of what it can do, it may have to do work proportional to both the number of target formats and the size of the input. I'd prefer to have mostly correct list quickly, even if a few weird cases might not work. >> And IIRC Dan's proposal ignores all the attachments that are sent >> with c-t application/octet-stream. > I don't think this is true. Surely a server can respond: Your example contains half a megabyte of responses, which IMO makes it a no-no in Lemonade. I don't really dislike Dan's proposal, but I do think it's beside the problem since it relates to the declared MIME type rather than the actual data type. With dozens of types all called "application/flash" and thousands often mislabelled "application/octet-stream" that's a significant difference. Philip's bodypart-based approach is better, but IMO the really useful approach is to let the client ask for conversions to downscaled JPG and downsampled MP3 without having to go through any foreplay. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 04:32:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5E328D068; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:32:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ceOsSVHeJbQ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D7A3A695E; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:32:25 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7B73A6A92 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:32:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCyrKCF11OLO for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F133A695E for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCAA4AC6A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:33:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203078821-86303-57; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:33:41 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:33:41 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen writes: > I don't really dislike Dan's proposal, but I do think it's beside the > problem since it relates to the declared MIME type rather than the > actual data type. With dozens of types all called "application/flash" > and thousands often mislabelled "application/octet-stream" that's a > significant difference. > > Philip's bodypart-based approach is better, but IMO the really useful > approach is to let the client ask for conversions to downscaled JPG > and downsampled MP3 without having to go through any foreplay. I wouldn't mind combining those. It seems possible to share syntax, and Dan's seems easy to implement on top of Philip's. CONVERSION could have a NIL to mark it as general or a UID/section to mark it as pertaining to that bodypart. Btw. I said it before, but it was easy to overlook. The syntax you've posted today and before allows only downscaling a given size, and that's usually not a good solution. There are three options: 1. Scale to the exact dimensions provided, disregarding aspect ratio. 2. Keep the aspect ratio and make the result smaller if necessary ("give me the biggest that fits my screen/window"). 3. Keep+bigger ("give me something that needs at most one scrollbar)". Please add an argument to select the type of scaling. Perhaps scale-type = "fit-within" / "exact-size" / "encompass". Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 04:42:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29D028CE9A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:42:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.636 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.636 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.799, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zX2cEq++CMBh; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FFCB3A6A90; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:42:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFC13A6AA9 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:42:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1+eGw61ShACb for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09943A6A90 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:44:04 +0000 Message-ID: <47B58914.5030904@isode.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:44:04 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Btw. I said it before, but it was easy to overlook. The syntax you've > posted today and before allows only downscaling a given size, and > that's usually not a good solution. There are three options: > 1. Scale to the exact dimensions provided, disregarding aspect ratio. > 2. Keep the aspect ratio and make the result smaller if necessary > ("give me the biggest that fits my screen/window"). > 3. Keep+bigger ("give me something that needs at most one scrollbar)". > > Please add an argument to select the type of scaling. Perhaps > scale-type = "fit-within" / "exact-size" / "encompass". This should be another conversion parameter registered with IANA. It should be defined in a document separate from the base CONVERT extension. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 05:16:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E843A6A9B; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:16:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.431, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AY5DKNSIEvIG; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18F33A6AC3; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:16:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BA928CFEA for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:16:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a2k5C7zGKNDE for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6903A6AB7 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:18:01 +0000 Message-ID: <47B59108.9050601@isode.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:18:00 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <1202557830.8450.13.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >Further comment. > >You can find the messages with attachment fairly efficiently using a >two-step process. > >First, you get rid of most of the messages without attachments: > >a uid search or header content-type multipart header content-disposition >attachment > >If something is not in the search result for this, you know it doesn't >have an attachment. Messages which match this search may have an >attachment, but since some other messages also match it, you have to >look at this smaller set in more detail to be sure: > >b uid fetch (result set from a) bodystructure > > As a side note: one can use SEARCHRES to do "result set from": a uid search RETURN (SAVE) or header content-type multipart header content-disposition attachment b uid fetch $ bodystructure >The bandwidth usage for this is proportional to the number of multipart >messages. > >Now, I wish we had a better way to do this. I would prefer this: > > c uid fetch (result set from a) body.peek[*.header.fields >(content-disposition)] > >but I don't really think an extension to support "*.header.fields" is >worth the bother... do you? > > Hmm, I need to think about this part. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FB428C3A2; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.486 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.220, BAYES_20=-0.74, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I5tuftxSPFds; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFE928C17E; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:36 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D7C28C23A for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id az+JijOWBbbK for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA6128C1B2 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRqRE000470; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:52 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5a024682; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:51 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:50 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:01:10 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Ned Freed , Mark Crispin Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Fix it and Deal with the Problem, or Go Away Thread-Index: Achv9FzRm3GYaNvnEdyqOQAWy4mm/w== In-Reply-To: <01MRAN7S94S400004Z@mauve.mrochek.com> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] Fix it and Deal with the Problem, or Go Away X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [Was: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message] This posting is in my capacity as chair of lemonade, not as a participant. Feel free to discuss the logic, as since I am also posting in my capacity as a human, there is a large chance that I am wrong. This message contains no decisions on protocol discussion. However, it does stipulate behaviors we expect work group participants to follow. As the IETF is a consensus-based organization, if you have a problem with this, please bring it up with the chairs; if you have a serious problem, please bring it up with the area directors. This is a long post. If you do not get to the bottom of the message, I would like to point out up here that I am reiterating one of Ned's philosophies in the post. If you get to the bottom, you will see what I am talking about. This post is in no way targeted toward Ned. There have been a number of postings that suggest that because one or more large messaging vendors have a poor track record of implementing IETF protocols, we cannot expect them to implement a this or that IETF lemonade proposal in the future. Given their dominant position in the market, we should not attempt to propose this or that lemonade proposal as it would not be implemented anyway. Indulge me with the following logic. 1. Consumers of lemonade have a well-known relationship with the administrator of the IMAP server offering lemonade services. a. If I am an enterprise consumer, my I.T. Department has bought a lemonade compliant IMAP server and most likely tells me which devices I am allowed to use. Today, this looks like Windows Mobile for Exchange usersd; BlackBerry or Gold for BES or Gold users (gatewaying to IMAP, Exchange, or whatever); or iPhone or other IMAP clients for legacy IMAP users. b. If I am a typical mobile consumer, I am getting my mobile e-mail from my mobile service provider. c. If I am a power mobile consumer, I am most likely using my own IMAP server. If not, I know who does administer my IMAP server. 2. Given a well-known relationship with the administrator of the IMAP server, if my mobile e-mail does not work due to a poor implementation of the server, I know whom to complain to. Using the cases above: a. My I.T. Helpdesk b. My mobile service provider customer service desk c. My ISP (or myself) 3. If one accepts the above logic, then I would offer poor implementations get detected in the right place, or at least by people who are in a position to figure out if there is a client or server problem. 4. Normally, the market enforces compliance. If a vendor is not compliant, the market should punish them by buying compliant implementations. [Before you respond, read on...] 5. Some servers have such dominant market share that it becomes a de facto standard. Oftentimes the market interprets implementation errors or non-interoperable implementations on the part of such a server to be errors in the compliant client. What does this mean for us? For example, some people say the evil company [insert your personal favorite target here] will not implement what we specify here. This could be by design. That is, implement just enough to say Standard but not enough to really remain proprietary. This could also be by honest mistakes (implementation errors) or a particular interpretation of ambiguous specifications. This situation is an objective reality. However, we have some choices in how to deal with this reality. One choice is to say, "No matter what we do, no one will listen to us, so we should not bother." Another choice is to say, "Standards are important, and especially for the new work of lemonade, there is a chance most of the server vendors, big ones included, just might implement the specifications correctly." I am a strong believer in microeconomics. I personally believe microeconomics (the market) will have us converge on the most efficient solution. If you are seriously in the camp that evil people will be evil and there is nothing us little people can do about it, please drop off the list. In my market-based approach to resource allocation, if most of the contributors here believe that lemonade will not make a difference, then most of the contributors will stop contributing to lemonade. In this case, I will happily close down the work group and stop wasting everybody's time. If you are in the camp that says we can help change the world for the better by extending the reach of messaging in a ubiquitous manner, even to devices of lesser capability or over impaired networks, please accelerate your efforts to write, review, comment upon, and approve the documents remaining in our work plan. When we are finished, the market will tell us whether we were right or not. Hence the new Subject for this thread: Fix It and Deal with the Problem, or Go Away. If there is a way to fix the Internet messaging infrastructure to support the lemonade environment, please fix it with as much speed as possible. If you think that no matter what we do nothing will change, please go away and stop distracting those that do want to finish this work. Lastly, as a chair I need to make it abundantly clear that I do NOT consider Ned in the "in the way" camp. He says how he operates very clearly (sorry to pull this slightly out of context): > This is the main reason I rarely participate in profile discussions - I fail > to see the point. If you look at the archives, Ned is eerily quiet on topics he considers to be tilting at windmills. For this, as Chair, I am grateful and honor his methods of participation. I would also, as Chair, point out the lemonade list and work group is NOT the venue for debate as to whether the work of this group is a stupid waste of time or an honorable investment. I would expect that discussion to occur at the IMC or some other venue. [Chair hat off - if there is no venue for people to blow off steam, I can open up a blog for this purpose at standardstrack.com.] If you personally come to a personal decision that this work is for naught, please do send the chairs or Area Directors a note so we can tell the difference between you traveling or taking a vacation and you leaving. Again, I PROMISE that if enough people think no one is going to actually implement lemonade, we will close the group. Conversely, I would request those that remain promise to use realistic measures for choosing approaches and mechanisms for the implementation of lemonade. Complexity, difficulty to achieve interoperability, consuming inordinate amounts of client resources, network resources, or server resources are all great reasons to reject a particular proposal. "We will never get brand X to implement a particular proposal" is NOT an acceptable reason to reject a proposal. NOTE WELL: Consider this a first warning that the chairs will consider postings in the vein of, "We cannot do X because we will never get server vendor M to implement it" as disruptive to the consensus-driven process for developing standards. NOTE WELL THE VERY SPECIFIC USE OF BCP 83 / RFC 3683 LANGUAGE HERE AND THE IMPLICATIONS THEREOF FOR REPEATED VIOLATION OF THIS NOTE WELL. On 2/15/08 2:53 AM, "Ned Freed" wrote: > >> The has_attachment flag is purely a UI advisory. We need to standardize >> the name of the flag, and leave it to the server administrator and >> client to iterate to a meaning. > > So the proposal is to write a short RFC saying "if you want a way to tell > clients whether or not a message has an attachment - whatever that means - use > this flag". I would characterize such a specification as Mostly Harmless, I > guess. I do predict some measure of difficulty getting such a specification > approved absent at least a basic definition of what it means for a message to > have an attachment. > >> To Marks's point this is one that may change over time. > > Um, I think that was one of my points, not Mark's. If I understand Mark's > point > correctly (and Mark please correct me if I don't) he sees all of this as a > waste of time since too many server implementors aren't bothering to properly > implement more basic parts of the IMAP specification, let alone all these > myriad extensions we're now discussing. So like it or not, clients have to be > prepared to do all the heavy lifting themselves. > >> The quality of the advisory becomes a service differentiator, not an >> issue of interoperability. Interoperability is limited to the client >> being able to identify and interpret the flag set by the server. > > Greg, I'm afraid that on this one I have to side with Mark. I see very little > evidence that anyone is basing implementation selection decisions on the > general availability of these sorts of features. To the extent that features > are used as a selection criteria, it's invariably the specific features > someone > thinks they need in the very short term, irrespective of what those features > are. > > This is the main reason I rarely participate in profile discussions - I fail > to > see the point. > > Ned > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541E928C42A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.835, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uCuzeYM6ln2n; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6277D28C287; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:36 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8791128C1B2 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCehOkLffQKR for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D606828C110 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRs9Q000479 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:54 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5c024682 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:53 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:51 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:29:36 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: New Title for Profile-bis Thread-Index: Achv+FWslHqOWNvrEdyqOQAWy4mm/w== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Question 1: Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? [ ] Yes [ ] No If Yes: Question 2: Should we change the title to: The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler [ ] Yes [ ] No If no: Question 3: What should the title be? Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE6428C47E; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.315, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVYpLDqN7bsD; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A970128C2C7; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8C728C2A3 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKLCr4B+fume for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8979328C110 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRxsB000567 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:59 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5k024682 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:58 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:52 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:32:24 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Solicitation for Another Profile Document Thread-Index: Achv+LnP+ByfbtvrEdyqOQAWy4mm/w== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Question: In addition to publishing the Lemonade Profile for OMA MEM (Profile-bis), should the work group publish another document that comprises the entire lemonade suite, including the bits that are not part of the OMA MEM profile? [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Yes, but it is of such low priority that it can wait for the current work of the work group to complete before we start work on such a document. As such, we should not add it to our work plan at this time. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264F428C554; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74LoWzxg+9Dq; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C431F28C3A9; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:44 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD02328C2A3 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y+zKGfNy86sp for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF77D28C1B2 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLS11R000599 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:01 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5m024682 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:00 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:52 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:33:49 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: What is Profile-bis? Thread-Index: Achv+Ox5KuQRZtvsEdyqOQAWy4mm/w== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This message is being sent in my capacity as Chair by request of the lemonade Work Group leadership. There have been a few postings about what should or should not be in Profile-bis. It is worthwhile to revisit both our charter in general and what Profile-bis is in particular. Our charter is to deliver protocol extensions to the Internet messaging infrastructure, specifically IMAP and SUBMIT, to enable or enhance messaging in ANY environment that has the characteristics of low or intermittent network connectivity, low power clients, or clients of lesser capability. This is the lemonade environment. In practical terms, this means we will develop a set of standards-track RFC's, BCP's, and Informational documents describing extensions to existing protocols, possible deployment architectures, and issues to be aware of with respect to or that enhance the lemonade environment experience. In an orthogonal effort, the IETF has been formally approached by the OMA to satisfy a number of requirements that just happen to have constraints of low or intermittent network connectivity, low power clients, and clients of lesser capability. This is convenient for us, as this means we can use the RFC's, BCP's, and Informational documents to satisfy the OMA's requirements. Very early on in the process, there was consensus in the work group that it would be valuable to produce a document, targeted towards the OMA, that in detail describes in one place how the suite of existing standards and new standards that we develop in lemonade achieve the OMA requirements. This document is the lemonade Profile and its successor, Profile-bis. With this in mind, we would like to take this opportunity to remind the work group what Profile-bis is, and what it is not. First, what Profile-bis is not. Profile-bis is not a protocol profile. From a pure, IETF protocol perspective, there is no such thing as a "lemonade protocol." What this means in practice is all of the respective protocol operation and negotiation occurs in the context of the individual standards, NOT as a whole-cloth lemonade protocol. Other groups may chose to BRAND clients and servers that happen to implement all of the components of the Profile as "lemonade clients" or "lemonade servers." However, that is a marketing, industry consortia, or testing lab activity. For example, the OMA may chose to grant OMA interoperability certification of all of the respective features important to THEIR embodiment of the lemonade environment. Now, what Profile-bis is. Profile-bis collects all of the protocol bits the OMA environment requires and describes how these protocol bits fit together in the OMA environment. Please note well the "OMA environment" is a strict subset of the "lemonade environment." The OMA environment is specifically the environment described in the Mobile Email Requirements Document at http://www.openmobilealliance.org/release_program/docs/RD/OMA-RD-MobileEmail -V1_0_20051018-C.pdf So, what does this mean in practice? This means that there will be documents the lemonade work group produces that will be valuable, important, and not in Profile-bis. I have a personal mea culpa here: I suggested future delivery could go into Profile-bis. However, future delivery is not an OMA MEM requirement. As such, it does not belong in Profile-bis. This does raise two issues we would like to open for discussion. The first is there clearly is some ambiguity as to what the Profile-bis document is. Even your now humbled chair could not get it right. I would suggest we change the title of the document to The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler The second is to solicit the level of interest in producing a grand, all-inclusive lemonade profile that encompasses all of the Lemonade Profile for the OMA MEM (Profile-bis) as well as the other useful features we have developed for other lemonade environments besides OMA MEM, such as future delivery and the streaming of multimedia content. Please respond to these two questions in the separate threads with the Subjects "New Title for Profile-bis" and "Solicitation for Another Profile Document" respectively. If you wish to discuss the scope of Profile-bis, please do that on this thread. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF96A28C56F; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sfOJsLPhaILz; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E537828C4B6; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B52928C3A9 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPUkOhGEaLnU for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFBA28C1E5 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLS27r000658; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:02 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5o024682; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:01 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:28:00 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:13:10 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Philip Van Hoof , Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] CONVERT Thread-Index: Achv3OSrIvnfftvQEdyqOQAWy4mm/w== In-Reply-To: <1200484167.8380.8.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] CONVERT X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Is the new version Alexey just posted clearer? If not (assume you did not know you misinterpreted it before), let us make it clearer. On 1/16/08 6:49 AM, "Philip Van Hoof" wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-01-16 at 09:19 +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: [snip] >>> - What if the CPU of the device just isn't fast enough to prepare a >>> mime part viewer quickly enough to start showing the now >>> converted data, that is already being received, to the user? >>> >>> >> This statement is wrong, as downloading converted data is a separate >> operation from determining what it was converted to. >> See my answer to your point # 1. > > Yes, I misinterpreted the spec on that point. If it are two steps, then > the client can prepare itself for as long as it needs. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4C128C510; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uVDfGFJ2CEiL; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA1328C51B; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C651A28C4AD for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iPuqIbdVdi+i for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1B628C1B2 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRtPX000489; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:55 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5e024682; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:54 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:53 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:48:01 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: "Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)" , Ned Freed Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: AchvG2FtRp5YeByjTLy7W+pw+iIZ9wAAEOxwADfQzP4= In-Reply-To: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE190B73BF@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [as a contributor] If it is impossible for the server to determine there is an attachment, it is impossible for the client to determine there is an attachment. However, we have tons of existence proofs that clients can determine there is an attachment. I would concur there are composition clients that screw up MIME. However, I would offer we let the market fix that. I like Greg's proposal because if, with today's technology, it is hard to determine if a message has an attachment, we can leave that to implementers to figure it out. We only have to provide a mechanism for flagging the message as having attachments. I am also hesitant to publish *an* algorithm for determining a message has attachments, unless it is 100% or is part of a document that specifies how a composition client composes a message with attachments. Otherwise, we will be left with *the* algorithm for determining a message has attachments, whether it is right or wrong. On 2/14/08 4:12 PM, "Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)" wrote: > > The has_attachment flag is purely a UI advisory. We need to standardize > the name of the flag, and leave it to the server administrator and > client to iterate to a meaning. To Marks's point this is one that may > change over time. > > The quality of the advisory becomes a service differentiator, not an > issue of interoperability. Interoperability is limited to the client > being able to identify and interpret the flag set by the server. > > Greg V. > > -----Original Message----- > From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Ned Freed > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:59 AM > To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com > Cc: lemonade@ietf.org; ned.freed@mrochek.com > Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a > message > >> I have one more suggestion: a flag? Those are flipped on an off all > the time. >> The server could flip in a /attachment any time. > > Yes, either a flag or an annotation could be used. Flags have the > advantage of > being defined in the base protocol and there's already a Sieve extension > to set > them. So you could use a delivery- and append-time sieve scripts to set > this > flag and not need any additional capabities beyond stuff that's already > being > worked on. > > But this now gets into the issues Mark was talking about in regards to > server > limitations and extension support. And we're still no closer to a clear > understanding of what this bit really means and when to set it. And this > brings > us back to my question: What needs standardizing here? > > Ned > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A4C28C528; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.364 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.364 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KuNljPoVsW8z; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3494B28C559; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF82028C559 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ieMOEN9yCo45 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D4228C300 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLS7Ww000729 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:07 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5u024682 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:06 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:53 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:42:35 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: WGLC on URLFETCH=BINARY Thread-Index: Achv+iX+ZEJnLNvtEdyqOQAWy4mm/w== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] WGLC on URLFETCH=BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This note serves as a Work Group Last Call on http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-01.txt Despite the file name, this is a work group document. Alexey has provided comments in his message with the Subject "[lemonade] Comments on draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-01.txt". In this message, Alexey suggests a mode where URLFETCH can return the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE without the body. Having heard no discussion for a week, we presume there is consensus on his comments, which are mostly editorial in nature. I apologize that I am currently disconnected and cannot include a link to this message. However, it is in the archives. Work Group Last Call closes 25 February 2008 Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 13:26:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4D828C5E4; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p8+WJptqqsjD; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5471128C522; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031A928C51B for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irGqT5-LaCyB for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2362A28C522 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLS8MI000741 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:08 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1FLRp5w024682 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:07 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.80 ([10.43.242.80]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:27:59 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:48:35 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: LEMONADE - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 71 Thread-Index: Achq+WOgRU2731JPTcqQ4qct5yWNfAFElx6g In-Reply-To: <20080209085256.369B93A70A2@core3.amsl.com> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] FW: LEMONADE - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 71 X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org LEMONADE Session 1 (2.5 hours) Friday, Morning Session I 0900-1130 Room Name: Breakout Room ---------------------------------------------- LEMONADE Session 2 (2 hours) Wednesday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500 Room Name: Breakout Room ---------------------------------------------- Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 14:11:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4D628C23A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pP+2lU2+g6w6; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AF03A68FD; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906A53A68CB for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kEaJ0UQDks8J for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com (rgminet01.oracle.com [148.87.113.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28453A68FD for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id m1FMCPX0002767; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:12:26 -0700 Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m1F48v9S002518; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:12:25 -0700 Received: from dhcp-4op5-4op6-west-144-25-174-66.us.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3578112831203113512; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:52 -0800 From: "Stephane H. Maes" To: "Eric Burger" , "lemonade@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:50 -0800 Thread-Index: Achv+LnP+ByfbtvrEdyqOQAWy4mm/wAJwYrg Organization: Oracle Corporation Message-ID: <20080215141150956.00000002256@smaes-lap> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Oracle Connector for Outlook 10.1.3.0.7 90706 (11.0.8169) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "stephane.maes@oracle.com" List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org _____ Stephane H. Maes, PhD, Chief Architect & CTO, Mobility, Voice, and Communications, Oracle. Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296 e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) or stephane.maes@gmail.com (Google) -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Burger Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 9:32 AM To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document Question: In addition to publishing the Lemonade Profile for OMA MEM (Profile-bis), should the work group publish another document that comprises the entire lemonade suite, including the bits that are not part of the OMA MEM profile? [X] Yes [ ] No [ ] Yes, but it is of such low priority that it can wait for the current work of the work group to complete before we start work on such a document. As such, we should not add it to our work plan at this time. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 14:11:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0E728C2DD; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.770, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkxa1eFBOpU0; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2EEA3A6B18; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C553F28C0E7 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3xbn42XJQ5dY for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com (rgminet01.oracle.com [148.87.113.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C833A6AE0 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id m1FMCTE6002821; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:12:29 -0700 Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m1F48v9Y002518; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:12:28 -0700 Received: from dhcp-4op5-4op6-west-144-25-174-66.us.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3578113011203113530; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:12:10 -0800 From: "Stephane H. Maes" To: "Eric Burger" , "lemonade@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:12:10 -0800 Thread-Index: Achv+FWslHqOWNvrEdyqOQAWy4mm/wAJ3I4A Organization: Oracle Corporation Message-ID: <20080215141210159.00000002256@smaes-lap> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Oracle Connector for Outlook 10.1.3.0.7 90706 (11.0.8169) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: "stephane.maes@oracle.com" List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org _____ Stephane H. Maes, PhD, Chief Architect & CTO, Mobility, Voice, and Communications, Oracle. Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / Office UM: +1-650-607-6296 e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com IM: shmaes (AIM/Y!/skype) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) or stephane.maes@gmail.com (Google) -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Burger Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 9:30 AM To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis Question 1: Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? [ ] Yes [X] No If Yes: Question 2: Should we change the title to: The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler [ ] Yes [ ] No If no: Question 3: What should the title be? Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 15:59:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B065F3A6AF8; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.991 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.991 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.554, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jCdDEDNi4nX5; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD353A6A1B; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4846C3A6A7F for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EMZsWfzIlwsd for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail121.messagelabs.com (mail121.messagelabs.com [216.82.241.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0253A6A1B for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:59:31 -0800 (PST) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-121.messagelabs.com!1203120049!27486684!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.128.141] Received: (qmail 4396 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2008 00:00:50 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp9.sbc.com (HELO flph161.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com) (144.160.128.141) by server-10.tower-121.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 16 Feb 2008 00:00:50 -0000 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph161.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1G00n2t025377 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:00:49 -0800 Received: from klph001.kcdc.att.com (klph001.kcdc.att.com [135.188.3.11]) by flph161.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1G00g8m024536 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:00:43 -0800 Received: from kcdc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klph001.kcdc.att.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id m1G00gig024258 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:00:42 -0600 Received: from maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by klph001.kcdc.att.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id m1G00XCP023098 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:00:37 -0600 Received: from [135.210.100.193] (unknown[135.210.100.193](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20080216000032gw10010gqie> (Authid: tony); Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:00:33 +0000 Message-ID: <47B6279A.5040303@att.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:00:26 -0500 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Burger References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Yes, but to something like Email Profile to Support Diverse Service Environments Tony Hansen tony@att.com Eric Burger wrote: > Question 1: > Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? > [ ] Yes > [ ] No > > > If Yes: > Question 2: > Should we change the title to: > The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) > Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler > [ ] Yes > [ ] No > > > If no: > Question 3: > What should the title be? > > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 16:42:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A5B28C277; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpvwMET7cYjp; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525293A6AF8; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:23 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0EA43A6AF8 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RUAqE9vUGpGU for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta01.zimbra.com (mta01.zimbra.com [77.67.121.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDCB3A6785 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (dogfood.zimbra.com [10.10.140.44]) by mta01.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556D3DE88AB; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496964BA6A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:43:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dogfood.zimbra.com Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dogfood.zimbra.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id knvoHXcS6ClU; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E38D4C176; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:43:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:43:38 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Karp To: Eric Burger Message-ID: <452061178.3811203122618227.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? > > Should we change the title to: > The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) > Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler I don't really care if the profile draft's title is changed, but I would much rather not have any reference to OMA-MEM in the title. I'm happy as far as the Lemonade drafts happen to satisfy the OMA MEM requirements. But I *really* don't want to see Lemonade turn into an OMA-MEM implementation exercise. Can't we just leave it as a set of high bang-for-the-buck IMAP and ESMTP extensions that optimize low-bandwidth/low-power clients and sync-based IMAP? _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 17:28:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC7E3A697D; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:28:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.685 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.685 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zsvi-s6t7bG7; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D88F3A6B23; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB383A6BF5 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:28:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gAxYcyQAz6Bk for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9F03A697D for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1G1TDGn008003; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 03:29:15 +0200 Received: from daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.112]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 16 Feb 2008 03:29:14 +0200 Received: from daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.24]) by daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:29:12 -0600 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:29:12 -0600 Message-ID: <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02CD829B@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <452061178.3811203122618227.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis Thread-Index: AchwNQDFAFwxRtETTTSQcQG6h8hLvAAAQZIQ References: <452061178.3811203122618227.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2008 01:29:12.0518 (UTC) FILETIME=[55D0AE60:01C8703B] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi All, I agree with Dan. I prefer not to have OMA MEM in the title. There is no reason why this draft can't be used for non OMA implementations. BR- Dorothy > -----Original Message----- > From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Dan Karp > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 4:44 PM > To: Eric Burger > Cc: lemonade@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis > > > Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? > > > > Should we change the title to: > > The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) > > Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler > > I don't really care if the profile draft's title is changed, > but I would much rather not have any reference to OMA-MEM in > the title. I'm happy as far as the Lemonade drafts happen to > satisfy the OMA MEM requirements. But I *really* don't want > to see Lemonade turn into an OMA-MEM implementation exercise. > Can't we just leave it as a set of high bang-for-the-buck > IMAP and ESMTP extensions that optimize > low-bandwidth/low-power clients and sync-based IMAP? > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 16 00:16:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1FC3A67B3; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:16:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.139 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.139 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3zQT96d2MQN; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E213A68CA; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:16:27 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011FA3A693D for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:16:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPeeeU6mUVjw for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210903A68CA for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E284AC73; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:16:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203149778-96499-1; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:16:18 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:16:17 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: gregv@alcatel-lucent.com, Ned Freed Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Eric Burger writes: > [as a contributor] > > If it is impossible for the server to determine there is an > attachment, it is impossible for the client to determine there is an > attachment. > [...] That doesn't follow. Each client can work to its own standard, but a server has to satisfy them all. I have messages (real ones, sent from real people to me personally) where clients can reasonably take opposite views of whether there are attachments. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 16 00:17:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677E13A6999; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.669, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t4s1OrLq8jC3; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7343A6923; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:17:18 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137BF3A6923 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:17:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pmp69Mjvdc5b for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9C73A68CA for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0A54AC73; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:17:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203149834-96499-4; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:17:14 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 09:17:14 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <47B6279A.5040303@att.com> In-Reply-To: <47B6279A.5040303@att.com> Cc: Tony Hansen Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tony Hansen writes: > Yes, but to something like > > Email Profile to Support Diverse Service Environments +1 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 13:56:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8EB3A6DE7; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:56:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.842 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.842 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.405, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aYxChJXyk0On; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD093A6E39; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:56:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A439A3A6852 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:56:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OO-8SuAYz+55 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5B63A68B7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:05:55 +0000 Message-ID: <47B85B42.20208@isode.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:05:22 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> <47B71397.30403@isode.com> <++77vQk5y2Gr2NCCq/cueQ.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <47B84EFE.5030609@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: > >> Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> >>> I meant the CONVERSION response, not the CONVERSIONS command. >> >> And I meant the CONVERTED response ;-). > > You mean that you want to have CONVERSION and CONVERTED responses, and > sometimes CONVERTED carries a converted bodypart and sometimes it > carries informtation about a conversion? Uh... Yes, this actually doesn't look too bad: C: f001 CONVERT 2 (NIL) (AVAILABLECONVERSIONS[2]) S: * 2 CONVERTED (TAG "f001") (AVAILABLECONVERSIONS[2] (("IMAGE/JPEG" "application/PostScript")) S: f001 OK CONVERT COMPLETED _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 14:10:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C23D3A6C28; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.816 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.816 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.379, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id THuZfpnNLBWQ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E98F3A6BE9; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:09:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD343A6864 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:09:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QN5tWRbYfW0S for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46CA43A6C35 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:13:31 +0000 Message-ID: <47B84EFE.5030609@isode.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:13:02 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> <47B71397.30403@isode.com> <++77vQk5y2Gr2NCCq/cueQ.md5@libertango.oryx.com> In-Reply-To: <++77vQk5y2Gr2NCCq/cueQ.md5@libertango.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: > >> Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> >>> I wouldn't mind combining those. It seems possible to share syntax, >>> and Dan's seems easy to implement on top of Philip's. CONVERSION >>> could have a NIL to mark it as general or a UID/section to mark it >>> as pertaining to that bodypart. >> >> I prefer to extend the CONVERT command itself, because: > > I meant the CONVERSION response, not the CONVERSIONS command. And I meant the CONVERTED response ;-). _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 14:10:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58FA3A6CA8; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.367, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9UoRhUH7NtQx; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D923A6C91; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A823A6CA7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PDDKT9bTH276 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB363A6CC0 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:47 +0000 Message-ID: <47B86241.1000608@isode.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:13 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Eric Burger References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Eric Burger wrote: >Question 1: >Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? >[ ] Yes >[ ] No > > I am undecided on this particular question. The more important question is whether the document targets to satisfy as many of OMA MEM requirements as practical. While I know that the Lemonade Profile Bis is not going to satisfy all OMA MEM requiremens (e.g. message recall), I think it should try to be as close as possible. >If Yes: >Question 2: >Should we change the title to: > The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) > Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler >[ ] Yes >[ ] No > > >If no: >Question 3: >What should the title be? > > I agree with Tony's suggestion. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 14:11:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE383A6BA7; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.295 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.850, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vT8clbBTKXB5; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF803A6BC4; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B013A6C5A for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xKbOhnIvjG5Q for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344E63A6C97 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:39:46 +0000 Message-ID: <47B755C4.7090206@isode.com> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:29:40 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: > >> I had an offline conversation with Philip van Hoof and he convinced >> me that we need a way to discover available conversions for a >> specific body part. > > I can see why. I remain unconvinced that we need more than one target > format for any given data domain, though. > >> So, unless somebody objects, I will also be adding a new CONVERT data >> item for requesting a list of available conversions. > > Good. Add some wording about performance and semantics. Will do. > If the server says it can translate 4.2.4 to x/y, is the conversion > allowed to fail later? Yes. This operation shouldn't be too slow. > Sometimes you only discover very late that a particular conversion > isn't possible, so if the server is to discover a _real_ list of what > it can do, it may have to do work proportional to both the number of > target formats and the size of the input. Right. > I'd prefer to have mostly correct list quickly, even if a few weird > cases might not work. Agreed. >>> And IIRC Dan's proposal ignores all the attachments that are sent >>> with c-t application/octet-stream. >> >> I don't think this is true. Surely a server can respond: > > Your example contains half a megabyte of responses, Yes, it is possible. > which IMO makes it a no-no in Lemonade. I can add a warning about this, but I am not sure we can do much better than that. > I don't really dislike Dan's proposal, but I do think it's beside the > problem since it relates to the declared MIME type rather than the > actual data type. With dozens of types all called "application/flash" > and thousands often mislabelled "application/octet-stream" that's a > significant difference. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 14:11:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A103A6B5C; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.834, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Acc+EYZ1YR4D; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2963A6C9F; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6306B3A6B5C for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dZizDMFuG6HI for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2BD3A6C7C for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:39:46 +0000 Message-ID: <47B71397.30403@isode.com> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:47:19 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Arnt Gulbrandsen writes: > >> I don't really dislike Dan's proposal, but I do think it's beside the >> problem since it relates to the declared MIME type rather than the >> actual data type. With dozens of types all called "application/flash" >> and thousands often mislabelled "application/octet-stream" that's a >> significant difference. >> >> Philip's bodypart-based approach is better, but IMO the really useful >> approach is to let the client ask for conversions to downscaled JPG >> and downsampled MP3 without having to go through any foreplay. > > I wouldn't mind combining those. It seems possible to share syntax, > and Dan's seems easy to implement on top of Philip's. CONVERSION could > have a NIL to mark it as general or a UID/section to mark it as > pertaining to that bodypart. I prefer to extend the CONVERT command itself, because: 1). it already has parameters for message number/UID and body part number. 2). CONVERSIONS can (*) be implemented as more or less static table of MIME types and parameters. (*) - but doesn't have to. It depend if an implementation is pluggable or not. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 14:11:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A723A6C4F; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.764 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.764 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.327, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqpuPPjjHcqy; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7B03A6D5F; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48BE3A6BC5 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtnE2z+UKfHf for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579AD3A6CC7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:00:11 +0000 Message-ID: <47B8840C.10801@isode.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:59:24 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] Updated CONVERT draft X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I've updated the CONVERT document as per my reading of the WGLC. I was about to submit the updated version, but the web submission tool didn't work for me. So I've uploaded the latest version to . Please review the document before February 25th. You need to review sections 5, 8.4 and 10. If you prefer to only review changes since the last version, you can find them here: _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 14:11:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBBE3A6BA3; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.758 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.758 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.321, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9fOFDjsJ0m7l; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52803A6C12; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:05 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4641E3A6B82 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LPdyeE1S6-zO for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8FA3A6B60 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:40:23 +0000 Message-ID: <47B86354.5030509@isode.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:39:48 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Eric Burger References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Eric Burger wrote: >Question: >In addition to publishing the Lemonade Profile for OMA MEM (Profile-bis), >should the work group publish another document that comprises the entire >lemonade suite, including the bits that are not part of the OMA MEM profile? > >[ ] Yes >[ ] No >[ ] Yes, but it is of such low priority that it can wait for the current >work of the work group to complete before we start work on such a document. >As such, we should not add it to our work plan at this time. > > Unless we can identify another set of requirements that we want to satisfy with this new document, my answer to this question is No. However I would like to work on some extra (most likely Intormational) documents that describe how these other pieces can be used by clients. But I think it takes lower priority at the moment. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 16:02:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9933A6BBD; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:02:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.648, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 797LUhFXg78e; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEA03A6AF7; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05283A6AF7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:02:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRMnTG9CWF+z for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77313A6AEB for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856FA4AC78; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:31:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203269501-22300-77; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:31:41 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:31:41 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> <47B71397.30403@isode.com> <++77vQk5y2Gr2NCCq/cueQ.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <47B84EFE.5030609@isode.com> <47B85B42.20208@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47B85B42.20208@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov writes: > Yes, this actually doesn't look too bad: > > C: f001 CONVERT 2 (NIL) (AVAILABLECONVERSIONS[2]) > S: * 2 CONVERTED (TAG "f001") (AVAILABLECONVERSIONS[2] > (("IMAGE/JPEG" "application/PostScript")) > S: f001 OK CONVERT COMPLETED Not too bad. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 16:35:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D273A6B55; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T+tTK0zAXCVR; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6373A6859; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671763A6859 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKg1+Bm5w+yu for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3763A67A2 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6FF4AC73; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:43:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203263022-22300-48; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:43:42 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:43:42 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> <47B71397.30403@isode.com> <++77vQk5y2Gr2NCCq/cueQ.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <47B84EFE.5030609@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47B84EFE.5030609@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov writes: > Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> I meant the CONVERSION response, not the CONVERSIONS command. > > And I meant the CONVERTED response ;-). You mean that you want to have CONVERSION and CONVERTED responses, and sometimes CONVERTED carries a converted bodypart and sometimes it carries informtation about a conversion? Uh... Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 18:15:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FB43A6C29; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.599, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yEedTF9qWEsV; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C7F3A6BDA; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:15:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527B23A6BEC for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:15:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nc5hqRYGlx0D for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F2B3A67F7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79C04AC30; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:10:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203261045-22300-38; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:10:45 +0100 Message-Id: <++77vQk5y2Gr2NCCq/cueQ.md5@libertango.oryx.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:10:45 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> <47B4C567.4070105@isode.com> <47B71397.30403@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47B71397.30403@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov writes: > Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> I wouldn't mind combining those. It seems possible to share syntax, >> and Dan's seems easy to implement on top of Philip's. CONVERSION >> could have a NIL to mark it as general or a UID/section to mark it >> as pertaining to that bodypart. > > I prefer to extend the CONVERT command itself, because: I meant the CONVERSION response, not the CONVERSIONS command. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 18:23:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CCBF3A682A; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.309, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKnlCHPVLjBy; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C493A6BFC; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1463A6BDA for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jqTwiFZkucrJ for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta01.zimbra.com (mta01.zimbra.com [77.67.121.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1571B3A6C2D for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (dogfood.zimbra.com [10.10.140.44]) by mta01.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2732BDE9AEA; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7034C178; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:22:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dogfood.zimbra.com Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dogfood.zimbra.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfepgZmwpDtJ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9970D4C174; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:22:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:22:56 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Karp To: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <1477449254.6081203301376359.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <478B3D82.2060506@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Lemonade WG , Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] [Fwd: Last Call: draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore (IMAP METADATA Extension) to Proposed Standard] X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Comments on the latest METADATA draft: METADATA requires both ENABLE and LIST-EXTENDED. LIST-EXTENDED is a significant, non-trivial extension and should not be listed as a prerequisite unless absolutely necessary. Extending LIST-EXTENDED to support comparison tests and collations adds a significant amount of complexity to the server. Realistically, when would a client make use of this feature? Moreover, since the number of mailboxes returned by a LIST-EXTENDED request is fairly small, it would be much simpler for the client to retrieve the annotations and do any sorting (or, far less likely, comparisons) locally. The draft states that "Text comparisons may be done as part of the GETMETADATA or LIST-EXTENDED commands." However, the draft ABNF includes no mechanism to do comparisons via GETMETADATA. The IMAP protocol is entirely case-insensitive, even down to message header names and user-defined keywords. METADATA entry and attribute names are case-sensitive. They should not be. SETMETADATA is used to set all annotations. GETMETADATA is used to fetch some of them; LIST-EXTENDED is used to fetch the others. Server- level metadata is set using "SETMETADATA NIL /comment", but retrieved using "GETMETADATA /comment" (without the NIL). In general, SET and GET commands should be complementary; anything set with SET should be retrievable via GET, and the command syntax should be identical. The defined set of METADATA-related commands is awkward. The access control model requires only LIST access on a mailbox to set shared annotations on it. While this might be acceptable for a server in a business, the bar is placed far too low for a real-world ISP or EDU install. There is almost a 100% likelihood that someone will immediately set all shared metadata on all "public folders" to values that are, shall we say, "not useful". Administrator access on a folder seems a more realistic requirement. The draft does not specify the permissions required to set shared server-level metadata. According to mail from the draft's authors, *any* user can set any writable server annotation. If that's the case, there's no point in having writable ".shared" server-level metadata at all. The access control model for server-level metadata needs to be made explicit and it needs to be more reasonable than a free-for-all. Most IMAP servers internally (and invisibly) redirect requests between hosts to satisfy SELECTs on mailboxes homed on servers other than the one the user logged in to. Some place the mail data on a separate tier and allow full access to any mailbox from any IMAP server. Very few if any use MAILBOX-REFERRALS to explicitly redirect clients to other hosts. Given that, what does server-level ".priv" metadata mean? Are servers required to present the same set of ".priv" server annotations regardless of which actual host is servicing a user's connection? If so, this is a sizable requirement on servers and it should be made explicit in the draft. METADATA carries over the "value" and "size" attribute names from ACAP. But there is no use case given for the "size" attribute for annotations, and none is obvious. A client will fetch a piece of metadata that it needs regardless of size -- very similar to how there is no need for BODY.SIZE[HEADER.FIELDS (...)] or BODY.SIZE[1]. METADATA would lose no power and become a fair amount simpler by getting rid of attributes. There is no explanation on how the various ".shared" mailbox metadata values should be used by clients. Is a client expected by default to use the ".shared" /sort, /thread, and /check values and display the shared /comment? Is there a way that these could be set maliciously? If these ".shared" values are not used by default, what is the real-world use for ".shared" mailbox annotations? Almost all of the predefined mailbox-level annotations (including /sort, /thread, /check, and /checkperiod) reference settings that have heretofore generally been viewed as per-client. It may be unexpected -- and possibly undesirable -- for these settings to be set as ".priv" mailbox annotations and thus shared between a user's clients. What's appropriate for a desktop client can be counterproductive on a mobile device. The use of wildcards in SETMETADATA is unnecessary. Can you think of a realistic use case where a client would need to set the same piece of metadata on multiple mailboxes at once? I can't think of one, certainly not a common enough one that would warrant adding more complexity to the draft. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 03:16:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D984C28C329; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:16:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.423, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 72wRDyTbFpRj; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F011928C350; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:16:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F9928C353 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:16:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LM-yT8anGI4j for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5195828C329 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1IBGKK1030344; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:16:34 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:16:22 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:16:22 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:16:38 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis Thread-Index: Achv+FWslHqOWNvrEdyqOQAWy4mm/wCJs/+w References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 11:16:22.0529 (UTC) FILETIME=[B15D3F10:01C8721F] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Eric, please find my responses below. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org = >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger >Sent: 15 February, 2008 19:30 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis > >Question 1: >Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? >[ ] Yes >[X] No > > >If Yes: >Question 2: >Should we change the title to: > The Lemonade Profile for the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) > Mobile E-Mail (MEM) Enabler [ ] Yes [ ] No > > >If no: >Question 3: >What should the title be? Can we change the name at all? I mean "Lemonade profile" is already out, so= I think that update should be called -bis. Or, if You mean changing the name of the working group, I like Tony Hansen'= s proposal: "Email Profile to Support Diverse Service Environments" _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 03:32:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1569628C394; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:32:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIo-lMigXaTE; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27A728C3BD; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:31:53 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D304728C3B4 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:31:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j8CZ28xSgsQC for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EBE28C3B2 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1IBVA09028274; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:31:39 -0600 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:29:55 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:29:55 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:30:11 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document Thread-Index: Achv+LnP+ByfbtvrEdyqOQAWy4mm/wCJ75ng References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 11:29:55.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[95C12710:01C87221] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Eric, I think that a pre-condition is not met: "publishing the Lemonade Profile f= or OMA MEM" So, I cannot vote on this. However, I got the impression that Lemonade will not be able to fulfil all = OMA MEM requirements (which is ok). So, the next obvious question to ask is= : what are additional "bits that are not part of the OMA MEM profile"? Or, = since such document does not exist: what bits and pieces in Your opinion co= uld be part of such future document? Thank You. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org = >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger >Sent: 15 February, 2008 19:32 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document > >Question: >In addition to publishing the Lemonade Profile for OMA MEM = >(Profile-bis), should the work group publish another document = >that comprises the entire lemonade suite, including the bits = >that are not part of the OMA MEM profile? > >[ ] Yes >[ ] No >[ ] Yes, but it is of such low priority that it can wait for = >the current work of the work group to complete before we start = >work on such a document. >As such, we should not add it to our work plan at this time. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 03:44:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F84728C360; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id unHBWzDIhN0a; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E43828C354; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:44:24 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789BB28C345 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:44:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nfXMItJKRMIN for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:211:9ff:fe2c:e28e]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B4028C326 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([217.155.137.61]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:43:55 +0000 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <22687.1203335034.055651@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:43:54 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Eric Burger Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Fri Feb 15 17:29:36 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > Question 1: > Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? > [ ] Yes > [ ] No If we do change the title, we should maintain the name Lemonade somewhere in it. The alternative would be to come up with a better, suitably marketable, term for what we're trying to achieve. Changing to a dry, descriptive title would probably not be beneficial to vendors trying to succintly describe what is hopefully a key USP of their product. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 03:46:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3C028C375; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:46:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.698, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MANGLED_DOMAIN=2.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDJ8RBlnlFx5; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FCB28C445; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:46:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A6128C3F8 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:46:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azkzdGzndt+F for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D61628C313 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341A64AC7B; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:46:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203335197-22300-363; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:46:37 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:46:36 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I'm not Eric, but I want to say something, so I do. Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: > However, I got the impression that Lemonade will not be able to fulfil > all OMA MEM requirements (which is ok). So, the next obvious question > to ask is: what are additional "bits that are not part of the OMA MEM > profile"? That's the question, isn't it? > Or, since such document does not exist: what bits and pieces in Your > opinion could be part of such future document? I know of three things. 1. Locating the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers. (I like and now use SRV records. user@doma.in -> _imap._tcp.doma.in and _submission._tcp.doma.in.) 2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. 3. Better error reporting in IMAP. Philip wanted more, it makes sense to many of us, and Peter and I have written drafts (independently, solving different problems). Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 03:52:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD6B28C3C9; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MGyl3q7KZp7; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0A928C3D8; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:52:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE3728C3D3 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:52:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4I0Jgcpzu6g for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEAB28C3FE for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1IBoXXH006979; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:51:01 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:50:47 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:50:47 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:51:03 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? Thread-Index: Achv+Ox5KuQRZtvsEdyqOQAWy4mm/wCKmBSw References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 11:50:47.0252 (UTC) FILETIME=[8008F940:01C87224] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Eric, I have some comments/questions below. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org = >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger >Sent: 15 February, 2008 19:34 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? > >I have a personal mea culpa here: I suggested future delivery = >could go into Profile-bis. However, future delivery is not an = >OMA MEM requirement. As such, it does not belong in Profile-bis. I thought future delivery is not going into the Profile-bis; however, it wi= ll be "recommended". If I interpret it correctly, even a recommendation (of something that is no= t an OMA MEM requirement) cannot be part of Profile-bis. Is this interpretation valid? Thank You. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:16:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F9628C378; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:16:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.432 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.432 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.431, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MANGLED_DOMAIN=2.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6avoD-yNXTTG; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B87E28C369; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90C228C378 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:16:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diyU1LRDt8Ex for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27F828C369 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1ICFOxA026712; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:15:52 +0200 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:15:48 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:15:48 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:16:04 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document Thread-Index: AchyI+3KQoznK0U2Qk2vSgTfJ4kTQgAAd09g References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 12:15:48.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[FEDF30B0:01C87227] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Arnt, there is no problem - this is why I sent it to the mailing list as well. I have a few comments/questions below. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: ext Arnt Gulbrandsen [mailto:arnt@oryx.com] = >Sent: 18 February, 2008 13:47 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Cc: eburger@bea.com; Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document > >I'm not Eric, but I want to say something, so I do. > >Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: >> However, I got the impression that Lemonade will not be able = >to fulfil = >> all OMA MEM requirements (which is ok). So, the next obvious = >question = >> to ask is: what are additional "bits that are not part of = >the OMA MEM = >> profile"? > >That's the question, isn't it? Indeed. I thought that the OMA MEM requirements were so comprehensive and h= igh level enough that it would be hard to find something that it not covere= d. Hence my curiosity. There is one thing I learned about OMA: if a said re= quirement is not provided, someone will complain, but if there is some extr= a that was not required in the first place, usually a "Is that mandatory? N= o." kind of conversation takes care of it. >> Or, since such document does not exist: what bits and pieces in Your = >> opinion could be part of such future document? > >I know of three things. > >1. Locating the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers. (I like and = >now use SRV records. user@doma.in -> _imap._tcp.doma.in and >_submission._tcp.doma.in.) What does "locating" mean? Could You clarify, please? Set the address of yo= ur own servers? Figure out the closest SMTP server? >2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. This could be easily considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements (though= it is not explicitly spelled out). >3. Better error reporting in IMAP. Philip wanted more, it = >makes sense to many of us, and Peter and I have written drafts = >(independently, solving different problems). This could be considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements - reducing tra= ffic and roundtrips (?) _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:27:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D712328C3A9; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:27:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 91BCXS2ZIzJL; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A6128C3A7; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF53128C3A7 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a-mYnabWjFwu for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B13B28C35E for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1ICRHWL006906; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:27:40 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:27:33 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:27:32 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:27:49 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] WGLC on URLFETCH=BINARY Thread-Index: Achv+iX+ZEJnLNvtEdyqOQAWy4mm/wCLuAMg References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 12:27:32.0977 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2BFE610:01C87229] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC on URLFETCH=BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Eric, Typo in chapter 4, below the first example: "Note that the data here does not contain a NUL octet, therefore a literla - not literal8 - syntax has been used." literla -> literal Formal syntax, chapter 5: capability =3D/ "URLAUTH=3DBINARY" shouldn't this be "URLFETCH=3DBINARY"? Thanks Dave! Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org = >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger >Sent: 15 February, 2008 19:43 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: [lemonade] WGLC on URLFETCH=3DBINARY > >This note serves as a Work Group Last Call on = >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cridland-urlfetch-bin >ary-01.txt > >Despite the file name, this is a work group document. > >Alexey has provided comments in his message with the Subject = >"[lemonade] Comments on = >draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-01.txt". In this message, = >Alexey suggests a mode where URLFETCH can return the = >BODYPARTSTRUCTURE without the >body. Having heard no discussion for a week, we presume = >there is consensus >on his comments, which are mostly editorial in nature. I = >apologize that I am currently disconnected and cannot include = >a link to this message. >However, it is in the archives. > >Work Group Last Call closes 25 February 2008 > > >Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, = >may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its = >subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be = >confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally = >privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the = >individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the = >intended recipient, and have received this message in error, = >please immediately return this by email and then delete it. >_______________________________________________ >lemonade mailing list >lemonade@ietf.org >http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade >Supplemental Web Site: >http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:30:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C130828C425; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:30:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y+QXUGTNjIVf; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA31528C402; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:30:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 192A528C35A; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:30:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080218123002.192A528C35A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:30:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP CONVERT extension Author(s) : A. Melnikov, P. Coates Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2008-02-17 CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its settings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-18042206.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-15.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-18042206.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:37:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA6F28C3D0; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:37:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.628 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.628 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.191, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z-f+jWaWsfsf; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0FB28C3CF; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:37:25 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4396A28C36B for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:37:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uk73t-aXMPVC for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:211:9ff:fe2c:e28e]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EAA28C3BA for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([217.155.137.61]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:36:14 +0000 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <22687.1203338174.383093@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:36:14 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC on URLFETCH=BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Fri Feb 15 17:42:35 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > Alexey has provided comments in his message with the Subject > "[lemonade] > Comments on draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-01.txt". In this > message, Alexey > suggests a mode where URLFETCH can return the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE > without the > body. I've not seen consensus either way on this. I note that Ken told me (via XMPP) that he doesn't care either way, and the primary reason it's not present is that it'd require substantial reworking of the document. One important point to note here is that the current format is, approximately: * URLFETCH 1*(descriptive-blob data-or-NIL) Allowing clients to request that the data isn't sent would mean either changing this, or doing something like setting the data to NIL. I vaguely prefer the latter. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:43:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5FD28C376; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:43:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.405 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.405 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.458, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MANGLED_DOMAIN=2.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PG2HHiK2mQK8; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E644828C378; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:43:10 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7008428C376 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:43:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yXodyD2tkPwI for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760C828C363 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:43:02 +0000 Message-ID: <47B97D3A.8030003@isode.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:42:34 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Arnt Gulbrandsen References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >I'm not Eric, but I want to say something, so I do. > >Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: > > >>However, I got the impression that Lemonade will not be able to fulfil >>all OMA MEM requirements (which is ok). So, the next obvious question >>to ask is: what are additional "bits that are not part of the OMA MEM >>profile"? >> >> >That's the question, isn't it? > > >>Or, since such document does not exist: what bits and pieces in Your >>opinion could be part of such future document? >> >> >I know of three things. > >1. Locating the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers. (I like and now use >SRV records. user@doma.in -> _imap._tcp.doma.in and >_submission._tcp.doma.in.) > >2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. > > This is likely to be needed for OMA MEM, btw. But there are good arguments why this should be a separate document. >3. Better error reporting in IMAP. Philip wanted more, it makes sense to >many of us, and Peter and I have written drafts (independently, solving >different problems). > > 4. Improved retrieval of basic information about mailboxes (a.k.a. STATUS in LIST) There are also various other bits that may still end up being in the Profile Bis: Stored searches IMAP URL extension for CONVERTed messages (it was removed from the CONVERT draft) ... _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:44:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9A228C3C0; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:44:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.262, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pjmjD+4HTTnz; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2A328C3A7; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:44:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D0C28C385 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:44:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DzgjoBYDUgIS for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D629A28C360 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:44:52 +0000 Message-ID: <47B97DA7.4060108@isode.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:44:23 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC on URLFETCH=BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote: >Formal syntax, chapter 5: >capability =/ "URLAUTH=BINARY" >shouldn't this be "URLFETCH=BINARY"? > > IMHO, despite the draft name it should be URLAUTH=BINARY, because it extends URLAUTH extension. But I can't say I care that much either way. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 04:48:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E604A28C43E; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.693 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.693 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.256, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hXhICOXKsu93; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB2E28C44A; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:48:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E0D28C44A for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:48:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FWbXAmV+SB1L for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4AD28C43E for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:48:37 +0000 Message-ID: <47B97E88.2030406@isode.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:48:08 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Dave Cridland References: <22687.1203335034.055651@peirce.dave.cridland.net> In-Reply-To: <22687.1203335034.055651@peirce.dave.cridland.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Title for Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Dave Cridland wrote: >On Fri Feb 15 17:29:36 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > > >>Question 1: >>Should we change the title of the Lemonade Profile-bis? >>[ ] Yes >>[ ] No >> >> >If we do change the title, we should maintain the name Lemonade >somewhere in it. > > Good point. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 05:01:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A78A28C3F1; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.693 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.693 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.256, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qZHhVTTv1heE; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDF628C3CA; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580CB28C3C2 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teT2gLoIUdoL for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CC228C3B8 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:01:03 +0000 Message-ID: <47B98172.6070208@isode.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:00:34 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Zoltan, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org >>[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger >>Sent: 15 February, 2008 19:34 >>To: lemonade@ietf.org >>Subject: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? >> >>I have a personal mea culpa here: I suggested future delivery >>could go into Profile-bis. However, future delivery is not an >>OMA MEM requirement. As such, it does not belong in Profile-bis. >> >> >I thought future delivery is not going into the Profile-bis; however, it will be "recommended". >If I interpret it correctly, even a recommendation (of something that is not an OMA MEM requirement) cannot be part of Profile-bis. >Is this interpretation valid? > > We had an agreement in the WG early on to make all extensions in Lemonade Profile Bis mandatory for servers to support. I think we will get ourselves into all sort of troubles during the deployment phase if we try to change this agreement. But note, this is just an agreement and if there is a really good reason for changing it for some extensions, such change can be considered. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 05:06:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80393A6CB8; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.713 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.713 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.276, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZzbinxM6RBN; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA528C29A; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5584428C29A for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:06:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HPY7XV40umIn for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239703A6CC1 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1ID5vHN024260; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:06:05 +0200 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:05:57 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:05:57 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:06:13 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47B98172.6070208@isode.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? Thread-Index: AchyLlQIziopx1K6THq5hIoCBtf76gAAEArQ References: <47B98172.6070208@isode.com> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 13:05:57.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[00116AF0:01C8722F] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Alexey, yes, I am aware of the agreement. In light of that, please let me re-phrase my question: does a recommendation make a draft part of Profile-bis? >-----Original Message----- >From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] >Sent: 18 February, 2008 15:01 >To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >Cc: eburger@bea.com; lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? >>>I have a personal mea culpa here: I suggested future >delivery could go >>>into Profile-bis. However, future delivery is not an OMA MEM >>>requirement. As such, it does not belong in Profile-bis. >>> >>> >>I thought future delivery is not going into the Profile-bis; >however, it will be "recommended". >>If I interpret it correctly, even a recommendation (of >something that is not an OMA MEM requirement) cannot be part >of Profile-bis. >>Is this interpretation valid? >> >> >We had an agreement in the WG early on to make all extensions >in Lemonade Profile Bis mandatory for servers to support. >I think we will get ourselves into all sort of troubles during >the deployment phase if we try to change this agreement. > >But note, this is just an agreement and if there is a really >good reason for changing it for some extensions, such change >can be considered. > > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 05:21:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A8F3A6CB0; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:21:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.223 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.223 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.640, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MANGLED_DOMAIN=2.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mEUg8g8Azvd4; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31B53A6C80; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:21:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4B93A6C80 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:21:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ziQHboU8RbuF for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59EA83A6C5D for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C764AC78; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:21:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203340908-22300-402; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:21:48 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:21:48 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes, answering me: > I thought that the OMA MEM requirements were so comprehensive and high > level enough that it would be hard to find something that it not > covered. Consider CONVERT. I think that lemonadish devices really need conversions to only two formats (one small image format and one small sound format). Other people on this list have different opinions. None of us can point to the MEM and say "OMA agrees with me". >>> Or, since such document does not exist: what bits and pieces in >>> Your opinion could be part of such future document? >> >> I know of three things. >> >> 1. Locating the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers. (I like and >> now use SRV records. user@doma.in -> _imap._tcp.doma.in and >> _submission._tcp.doma.in.) > > What does "locating" mean? Could You clarify, please? Set the address > of your own servers? Figure out the closest SMTP server? Here's a scenario: User NN purchases a new mobile phone which comes with a lemonade-capable mail client, a web browser, etc, etc, and btw. Six months later, NN purchases a small and expensive new Sony Vaio laptop and wants to read mail with it too. So downloads a lemonade-compliant mail client to use there. The question is: How does the new program on the laptop find the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers it is supposed to use? There are various answers to this. I've heard 5-10 different ones from people on this list. The extremes are "no can do - only vendor-supplied/approved clients are permitted" to "ask the user for the email address and use SRV lookups based on the domain part". >> 2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. > > This could be easily considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements > (though it is not explicitly spelled out). Could you spell it out for me, please? >> 3. Better error reporting in IMAP. Philip wanted more, it makes sense >> to many of us, and Peter and I have written drafts (independently, >> solving different problems). > > This could be considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements - > reducing traffic and roundtrips (?) No, this is mostly about client UI quality, not traffic/rountrips. Currently some server errors tend to have very generic client messages like "could not delete mailbox". It would be better to support "could not delete mailbox because someone is using it at the moment" or "... because someone else already deleted it". Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 06:04:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0205228C3CB; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:04:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.468 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MANGLED_DOMAIN=2.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mKGtsnoZEU13; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6BF28C37D; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:04:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A8228C35A for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:04:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nn1Lby+byPXp for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E321028C326 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1IE5j8v017771; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 08:05:54 -0600 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:04:06 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:04:06 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:04:23 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document Thread-Index: AchyMTui0w/YOAbIRGeb3SvbT/utTAAAM9vw References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 14:04:06.0748 (UTC) FILETIME=[201B31C0:01C87237] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org >Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes, answering me: >> I thought that the OMA MEM requirements were so >comprehensive and high >> level enough that it would be hard to find something that it not >> covered. > >Consider CONVERT. I think that lemonadish devices really need >conversions to only two formats (one small image format and >one small sound format). Other people on this list have >different opinions. None of us can point to the MEM and say >"OMA agrees with me". Well, I think that the problem is the interpretation of the requirement, not the existence of requirements. Participating the OMA MEM meetings, it seems obvious that image and sound conversion only is not enough. >>>> Or, since such document does not exist: what bits and pieces in >>>> Your opinion could be part of such future document? >>> >>> I know of three things. >>> >>> 1. Locating the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers. (I like >and now use >>> SRV records. user@doma.in -> _imap._tcp.doma.in and >>> _submission._tcp.doma.in.) >> >> What does "locating" mean? Could You clarify, please? Set >the address >> of your own servers? Figure out the closest SMTP server? > >Here's a scenario: User NN purchases a new mobile phone which >comes with a lemonade-capable mail client, a web browser, etc, >etc, and btw. Six months later, NN purchases a small and >expensive new Sony Vaio laptop and wants to read mail with it >too. So downloads a lemonade-compliant mail client to use there. > >The question is: How does the new program on the laptop find >the IMAP and SMTP/submission servers it is supposed to use? > >There are various answers to this. I've heard 5-10 different >ones from people on this list. The extremes are "no can do - >only vendor-supplied/approved clients are permitted" to "ask >the user for the email address and use SRV lookups based on >the domain part". There is a requirement is in OMA MEM, but it's called provisioning (settings will be there before you use the service) so I think that this is a good candidate. >>> 2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. >> >> This could be easily considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements >> (though it is not explicitly spelled out). > >Could you spell it out for me, please? You mean the relevant OMA MEM requirements? I quote here the requirements that I think are relevant: IOP-11 The email enabler MUST support server-side adaptation of attachment to the device user by user IOP-12 The server-side adaptation MUST be capable of being controlled by the client (e.g. with smart or intermediate clients) IOP-14 Server-side adaptation MUST preserve the ability of accessing email via other channels (e.g. via other email clients) IOP-15 Server-side adaptation MUST preserve the original emails and attachment stored in the email server Or, you mean how it can be covered? For minimum interoperability. Two reasons: OMA needs this, otherwise there is no interoperability test. Market needs this, otherwise nobody can start a service that would work with the others. >>> 3. Better error reporting in IMAP. Philip wanted more, it >makes sense >>> to many of us, and Peter and I have written drafts (independently, >>> solving different problems). >> >> This could be considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements - >> reducing traffic and roundtrips (?) > >No, this is mostly about client UI quality, not traffic/rountrips. >Currently some server errors tend to have very generic client >messages like "could not delete mailbox". It would be better >to support "could not delete mailbox because someone is using >it at the moment" or "... >because someone else already deleted it". Ok, this might be a good candidate then. I think that everyone in OMA assumed that these are implementation issues so there are no requirements on this (normally protocols can signal error conditions adequately). Though I think this is something that would serve everyone's benefit, so I am pretty sure that OMA MEM would not complain having enhancements in this area - without having requirements for it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 06:48:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D5F3A6816; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:48:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.438, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 060pJ9yLEXKK; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0913A69D7; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:48:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350A03A67F7 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tDx6qL9URw7X for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3337D3A69D7 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA4D4AC78; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:48:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203346086-22300-452; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:48:06 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:48:06 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: > There is a requirement is in OMA MEM, but it's called provisioning > (settings will be there before you use the service) so I think that > this is a good candidate. Provisioning applies only to the mobile phone NN gets from the service provider, not to the Vaio. (And IMO it's not realistic to tell customers "you cannot read your mail with your new Toshiba laptop, only with the device we sold you". RIM has succeeded in that, but it's not possible to do it with IMAP+SMTP+TLS.) >>>> 2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. >>> >>> This could be easily considered as part of the OMA MEM requirements >>> (though it is not explicitly spelled out). >> >> Could you spell it out for me, please? > > You mean the relevant OMA MEM requirements? That's what I mean. Alexey and I disagree about what's needed, and the OMA's document is so general that it covers both of our positions. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 10:28:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC1A28C400; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:28:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.969 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.969 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.532, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pz8Ac0bQ-KPa; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487D43A68BE; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:28:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827E53A68EA; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:28:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VH41lPtV6+92; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1AA3A67EC; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1IIRhlp015017; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:28:05 +0200 Received: from daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.112]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:27:13 +0200 Received: from daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.24]) by daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:27:00 -0600 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:26:59 -0600 Message-ID: <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02CD8714@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? Thread-Index: AchyLlQIziopx1K6THq5hIoCBtf76gAAEArQAArSGrA= References: <47B98172.6070208@isode.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 18:27:00.0852 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA347340:01C8725B] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org From an OMA perpsective, there is enough in profile bis as is. So yes, lets stick to the orginal agreement that drafts in profile bis will be manadatory on the server. If there are Lemonade recommendations, OMA can reference the separate draft as a recommendation, this is not a problem. We can reference other IETF drafts besides profile bis. BR, Dorothy > -----Original Message----- > From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 5:06 AM > To: alexey.melnikov@isode.com > Cc: lemonade@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? > > Hi Alexey, > yes, I am aware of the agreement. In light of that, please > let me re-phrase my question: does a recommendation make a > draft part of Profile-bis? > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] > >Sent: 18 February, 2008 15:01 > >To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) > >Cc: eburger@bea.com; lemonade@ietf.org > >Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? > > >>>I have a personal mea culpa here: I suggested future > >delivery could go > >>>into Profile-bis. However, future delivery is not an OMA MEM > >>>requirement. As such, it does not belong in Profile-bis. > >>> > >>> > >>I thought future delivery is not going into the Profile-bis; > >however, it will be "recommended". > >>If I interpret it correctly, even a recommendation (of > >something that is not an OMA MEM requirement) cannot be part of > >Profile-bis. > >>Is this interpretation valid? > >> > >> > >We had an agreement in the WG early on to make all extensions in > >Lemonade Profile Bis mandatory for servers to support. > >I think we will get ourselves into all sort of troubles during the > >deployment phase if we try to change this agreement. > > > >But note, this is just an agreement and if there is a really good > >reason for changing it for some extensions, such change can be > >considered. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 19 01:47:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C401828C430; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:47:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.673 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.673 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.236, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZlSx1ev4Tobo; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA76D3A69A8; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:47:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EE53A6929 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:47:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p2pFqOIglV+Q for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 274313A69F4 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1J9knCX001633; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:47:19 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:47:02 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:47:02 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:47:19 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document Thread-Index: AchyPUhfICrJ2oXEQ6iLxNUeLM3JBAAnlpDA References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2008 09:47:02.0341 (UTC) FILETIME=[60DB3750:01C872DC] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Arnt, please see my responses below. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: ext Arnt Gulbrandsen [mailto:arnt@oryx.com] = >Sent: 18 February, 2008 16:48 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Cc: eburger@bea.com; Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >Subject: Re: [lemonade] Solicitation for Another Profile Document > >Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: >> There is a requirement is in OMA MEM, but it's called provisioning = >> (settings will be there before you use the service) so I think that = >> this is a good candidate. > >Provisioning applies only to the mobile phone NN gets from the = >service provider, not to the Vaio. > >(And IMO it's not realistic to tell customers "you cannot read = >your mail with your new Toshiba laptop, only with the device = >we sold you". RIM has succeeded in that, but it's not possible = >to do it with = >IMAP+SMTP+TLS.) I totally agree with You on these. It is a valid requirement, too, so pleas= e communicate it to the OMA DM group. >>>>> 2. Mandatory conversion set. I've stated my opinion before. >>>> >>>> This could be easily considered as part of the OMA MEM = >requirements = >>>> (though it is not explicitly spelled out). >>> >>> Could you spell it out for me, please? >> >> You mean the relevant OMA MEM requirements? > >That's what I mean. Alexey and I disagree about what's needed, = >and the OMA's document is so general that it covers both of = >our positions. I see. I feel that since Alexey did participate OMA MEM meetings in the pas= t, He has some sort of an advange here. I suggest that we pick this up as a discussion topic for the upcoming joine= d meeting - I hope that You can make it there personally and express/discus= s Your views and concerns about this topic. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 19 03:27:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B8A3A6A59; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:27:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.139 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.139 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HTML_MESSAGE=1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zapm+ir5qbDG; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9112028C3EB; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:27:41 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488C028C3BC for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:27:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Asxr0V6244AO for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com (zrtps0kp.nortel.com [47.140.192.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991F128C512 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.95]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m1JBR0h05063 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:27:00 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:17:14 -0500 Message-ID: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D13B4733E@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: LEMONDE design team conference call Thread-Index: Achy6PqT9413aY8xR1GxMnUzswSa+A== From: "Glenn Parsons" To: Subject: [lemonade] LEMONDE design team conference call X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2065577381==" Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2065577381== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C872E8.FAF91760" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C872E8.FAF91760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I had meant to send this out last week, but I was out sick... Anyway, there will be a LEMONADE design team call on Thursday, Feb 21st, 9am PT (1700 GMT) for 3 hours max. The call is intended for the editors, but others may join. The goal is to discuss outstanding issues with our last call documents. The proposal for the agenda for the Feb 21st call is: - NOTIFY (draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify) * discussion on updates needed on version for WG LC - CONVERT (draft-ietf-lemonade-convert) * discussion on poll outcome and document action, if needed - Profile bis (draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis) * what is in/out? * prep for workshop - are OMA MEM requirements met? Cheers, Glenn. Conference bridge=20 Participant Passcode: 3936903# US +1-=09 North Carolina 919-997-8994=09 Massachusetts 978-288-4793=09 Texas 972-362-0170=09 California 408-495-5113=09 Canada +1-=09 Ottawa 613-763-0170 =09 Toronto 905-863-7599=09 Montreal 514-818-3524=09 Calgary 403-769-5487=09 Vancouver 604-631-4051=09 UK +44 162 843 4170=09 Ireland +35 39 173 2770=09 France +33 16 955 2170=09 Germany +49 696 697 3170=09 Italy +39 065 152 9170=09 Spain +34 91 709 4370=09 Holland +31 23 567 3170=09 Australia +61-2-8870-5504=09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C872E8.FAF91760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LEMONDE design team conference call

Folks,

I had meant to send this out last week, = but I was out sick…

Anyway, there will be a LEMONADE design = team call on Thursday, Feb 21st, 9am PT (1700 GMT) for 3 hours = max.  The call is intended for the editors, but others may = join.

The goal is to discuss outstanding = issues with our last call documents.

The proposal for the agenda for the Feb = 21st call is:

 - NOTIFY = (draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify)
    * discussion on = updates needed on version for WG LC
 - CONVERT = (draft-ietf-lemonade-convert)
    * discussion on = poll outcome and document action, if needed
 - Profile bis = (draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis)
    * what is = in/out?
    * prep for workshop = - are OMA MEM requirements met?

Cheers,
Glenn.
Conference bridge =
Participant = Passcode:   3936903#

US      =         =         = +1-    
  North Carolina        =         = 919-997-8994   
  Massachusetts         = 978-288-4793   
  Texas         =         = 972-362-0170   
  California    =         =         408-495-5113   
Canada  +1-    
  Ottawa        =         613-763-0170   
  Toronto       = 905-863-7599   
  Montreal      =         = 514-818-3524   
  Calgary       =         = 403-769-5487   
  Vancouver     = 604-631-4051   
UK      =         =         +44 162 843 4170       
Ireland         +35 39 173 2770
France          +33 16 955 = 2170
Germany         +49 696 697 = 3170       
Italy           =         +39 065 152 = 9170       
Spain           =         +34 91 709 4370
Holland         +31 23 567 3170
Australia       +61-2-8870-5504



------_=_NextPart_001_01C872E8.FAF91760-- --===============2065577381== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --===============2065577381==-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 19 21:04:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9564328C69D; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.931, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zPNWopWkQN1w; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CD128C296; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250CF28C296 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wb1YZSc2kQUJ for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6437128C0F5 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1K54O6o020796 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:04:24 -0500 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m1K54OTQ216578 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:04:24 -0700 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1K54Nrw018500 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:04:23 -0700 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1K54N5P018469; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:04:23 -0700 Received: from wecm-9-67-188-242.wecm.ibm.com ([9.67.188.242]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1203483868.1480; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:04:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:04:21 -0500 From: Barry Leiba To: Glenn Parsons , lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org PiBXZSBoYWQgaG9wZWQgdG8gZml0IHRoaXMgaW4gaW4gSmFudWFyeSBvciBGZWJydWFyeSwgaG93 ZXZlciB0aGUgc2NoZWR1bGluZyBkaWQKPiBub3Qgd29yayBvdXQuICBUaGUgY3VycmVudCBwcm9w b3NhbCBpcyB0aGF0IHRoaXMgd29ya3Nob3Agd2lsbCBoYXBwZW4gaW4KPiBQaGlsYWRlbHBoaWEg b24gTWFyY2ggMTR0aC4gIFRoaXMgd2lsbCBiZSBpbiBhZGRpdGlvbiB0byBhbnkgTEVNT05BREUg bWVldGluZwo+IGR1cmluZyBJRVRGLiAgQXMgd2UgYXJlIHN0aWxsIHRyeWluZyB0byBzZWN1cmUg bWVldGluZyBzcGFjZSwgdGhpcyBpcyBub3QgeWV0Cj4gYW4gb2ZmaWNpYWwgYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50 4oCmCj4KPiBCdXQgcGxlYXNlIGtlZXAgdGhpcyBGcmlkYXkgd29ya3Nob3AgaW4gbWluZCB3aGVu IG1ha2luZyB5b3VyIHRyYXZlbCBwbGFucy4KCkl0J3MgZ2V0dGluZyB0byBiZSB0aW1lIHdoZW4g cGVvcGxlIHNob3VsZCBiZSB0aGlua2luZyBhYm91dCBtYWtpbmcgdHJhdmVsIHBsYW5zLiAKSWYg eW91IHN0aWxsIHdhbnQgdXMgdG8ga2VlcCB0aGUgd29ya3Nob3AgaW4gbWluZCwgd2UnbGwgbmVl ZCBtb3JlIGRldGFpbHMuICBTb29uLgoKQmFycnkKCi0tCkJhcnJ5IExlaWJhLCBTVFNNLCBJbnRl cm5ldCBNZXNzYWdpbmcgVGVjaG5vbG9neSAgKGxlaWJhQHdhdHNvbi5pYm0uY29tKQpodHRwOi8v d3d3LnJlc2VhcmNoLmlibS5jb20vcGVvcGxlL2wvbGVpYmEKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5yZXNlYXJjaC5p Ym0uY29tL3NwYW0KCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXwpsZW1vbmFkZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKbGVtb25hZGVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xlbW9uYWRlClN1cHBsZW1lbnRhbCBXZWIgU2l0ZToK aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zdGFuZGFyZHN0cmFjay5jb20vaWV0Zi9sZW1vbmFkZQ== From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 03:13:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F56C28C741; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.863 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.863 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.426, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kY62Nn7ixss0; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6688928C45B; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:13:41 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9660B28C144 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:13:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4LI29bWKleY for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DB528C74D for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 03:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9872D4AC85 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:12:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203505972-22300-1339; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:12:52 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:12:52 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Barry Leiba writes: > It's getting to be time when people should be thinking about making > travel plans. If you still want us to keep the workshop in mind, > we'll need more details. Soon. It's on IETF Friday, probably in the IETF hotel, probably starting in the morning although if a room has been allocated I haven't heard about it. May last into the afternoon. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 05:29:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2908F3A6A45; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:29:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.181, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lW+whkFJKNR9; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B97D28C14B; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:29:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81CBC28C14B for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:29:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RHbz+AXhWe0v for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B239F3A6A00 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1KDTdYg031838 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:29:39 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m1KDTegM305954 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:29:40 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1KDTdQs020239 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:29:39 -0500 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1KDTdYQ020233 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:29:39 -0500 Received: from URANUS ([9.2.42.23]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1203514184.1530; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:29:44 -0400 Message-ID: <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:29:39 -0500 From: Barry Leiba User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt said... > It's on IETF Friday, probably in the IETF hotel, probably starting in > the morning although if a room has been allocated I haven't heard about > it. May last into the afternoon. Ya, that's not very useful for travel planning, y'see. Maybe the chairs have some more details? Barry _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 06:14:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C1E728C1A8; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:14:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.533, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UGq6hgZnli6y; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCEE3A6CA8; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:14:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933CC3A6A48 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:14:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8AohhKpAPRnf for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4EE3A6CA8 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1KEEjD2028964; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:14:46 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:00:29 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:00:29 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:00:42 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop Thread-Index: AchzxLQL01SorZ0dTuqQTyqKDVOFzwABBiuQ References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2008 14:00:29.0340 (UTC) FILETIME=[F358DDC0:01C873C8] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Barry, I do not know any details either (the ball is at the Chairmen), but condsid= ering that it is going to be a Friday, I do not think it will run anything = later than 17:00. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org = >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Barry Leiba >Sent: 20 February, 2008 15:30 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop > >Arnt said... >> It's on IETF Friday, probably in the IETF hotel, probably = >starting in = >> the morning although if a room has been allocated I haven't heard = >> about it. May last into the afternoon. > >Ya, that's not very useful for travel planning, y'see. >Maybe the chairs have some more details? > >Barry > >_______________________________________________ >lemonade mailing list >lemonade@ietf.org >http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade >Supplemental Web Site: >http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 08:27:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DE628C845; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.730, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w5AZ5CGiB9iq; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F5A28C75E; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:27:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB843A6A4F for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JuWGQeSL5CGD for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E0528C818 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1KGQueq006672; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:26:59 +0200 Received: from daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.112]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:26:36 +0200 Received: from daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.24]) by daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:25:59 -0600 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:25:58 -0600 Message-ID: <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02D10336@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop Thread-Index: AchzxLDUjStIQ3E9SfSafdsHmYz9GwAGECCA References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2008 16:25:59.0673 (UTC) FILETIME=[4707F690:01C873DD] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Barry- I'm with you. So far I only know of a morning session on Friday for the OMA/MEM workshop. If it goes into the afternoon, I'll have to change my travel plans, so I need to know soon. But happy to attend if scheduled. Thanks, Dorothy > -----Original Message----- > From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Barry Leiba > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:30 AM > To: lemonade@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop > > Arnt said... > > It's on IETF Friday, probably in the IETF hotel, probably > starting in > > the morning although if a room has been allocated I haven't heard > > about it. May last into the afternoon. > > Ya, that's not very useful for travel planning, y'see. > Maybe the chairs have some more details? > > Barry > > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 11:37:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF33E28CAF6; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:37:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.141 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.141 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.704, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nNDpcnShVe+Y; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE6C28CAD3; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:36:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4235C28CA61 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:36:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P+a-U6dT3Krg for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858CB28CB02 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1KJYUK0009918 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:34:30 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m1KJYUxC315026 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:34:30 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1KJYUQR015944 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:34:30 -0500 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1KJYUCY015455; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:34:30 -0500 Received: from Uranus-009002042023.watson.ibm.com ([9.2.42.23]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1203536069.1666; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:34:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:34:22 -0500 From: Barry Leiba To: Glenn Parsons , lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D13B4733E@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D13B4733E@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [lemonade] LEMONDE design team conference call X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > US +1- > North Carolina 919-997-8994 > Massachusetts 978-288-4793 > Texas 972-362-0170 > California 408-495-5113 No toll-free number for the US? Barry _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 16:19:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E12328C236; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.423 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.423 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbOIrRIqZ0Ou; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC463A6B2A; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:28 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E295A3A6837 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p19Bwd3Sar0B for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249D93A6B2A for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1L0JLqN032001 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:21 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1L0JKY9032696 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:20 -0800 Received: from 172.24.28.72 ([172.24.28.72]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:19:19 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:19:18 -0800 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Summary: What is Profile-bis Thread-Index: AchyLlQIziopx1K6THq5hIoCBtf76gAAEArQAArSGrAAcWJKCg== In-Reply-To: <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02CD8714@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] Summary: What is Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Good thing we work by consensus and not fiat. There is strong consensus not to change the title of Profile-bis. Moreover, people seem happy that we will keep our integrity to Profile-bis' purpose by making it clear in the Abstract and Introduction that Profile-bis' goal is to satisfy the OMA MEM requirements. Operationally, this means the primary factor for in/out decisions are the OMA MEM requirements. It also means we dodge the "Is this the OMA MEM Enabler" question entirely, as the Lemonade Profile is a proper subset of the OMA MEM requirements. For example, the lock & wipe functionality is clearly out of scope for the IETF, yet it is a clear requirement for the MEM Enabler. We also know from painful interoperability experience there will be little to no conditional requirements (SHOULD, MAY, etc.). As to a comprehensive Lemonade document, some felt it was important to do someday, others felt it could wait, and others think it would make a good O'Reilly book. Given that, we will not be adding a new milestone at this time. Thanks for your input and near universal consensus. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 20 17:50:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6E63A6DFE; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:50:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.764 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.764 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.327, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Arelk-Szy6gm; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3957D28C3C8; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:50:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D64228C3E9 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDGKzPkOpYPG for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D823A6B54 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA7F2EFE66; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:49:56 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0mDtCq0ATqea; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.7] (unknown [10.0.1.7]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5BD2EFE5B; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:49:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:49:52 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com, leiba@watson.ibm.com, lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02D10336@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02D10336@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi, --On February 20, 2008 10:25:58 AM -0600 Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com wrote: > I'm with you. So far I only know of a morning session on Friday for the > OMA/MEM workshop. If it goes into the afternoon, I'll have to change my > travel plans, so I need to know soon. But happy to attend if scheduled. Well the current IETF agenda has Lemonade and IDN sessions on Friday morning. So is this workshop meant to replace the Lemonade morning session on that day, or what? Also note that some people have complained about the Lemonade/IDN clash so the scheduling of either of those might still change. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 03:21:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534A028C54A; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:21:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.193 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.193 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.748, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NUsaagzzPP0F; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443FD28C4F3; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:21:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C8E3A683B for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:21:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l-bWNchA9uNc for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32F028C41D for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:21:12 +0000 Message-ID: <47BCA6F6.4080104@isode.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:17:26 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com References: <47B98172.6070208@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote: >Hi Alexey, >yes, I am aware of the agreement. In light of that, please let me >re-phrase my question: does a recommendation make a draft part of >Profile-bis? > > Based on a the current agreement, a recommendation (i.e. RECOMMENDED == SHOULD using RFC 2119 keywords) on an extension can't be added to Profile Bis. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] >>Sent: 18 February, 2008 15:01 >>To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >>Cc: eburger@bea.com; lemonade@ietf.org >>Subject: Re: [lemonade] What is Profile-bis? >> >> >>>>I have a personal mea culpa here: I suggested future delivery could go >>>> >>>> >>>>into Profile-bis. However, future delivery is not an OMA MEM >>>>requirement. As such, it does not belong in Profile-bis. >>>> >>>> >>>I thought future delivery is not going into the Profile-bis; however, it will be "recommended". >>> >>> >>>If I interpret it correctly, even a recommendation (of something that is not an OMA MEM requirement) cannot be part >>>of Profile-bis. >>> >>> >>>Is this interpretation valid? >>> >>> >>We had an agreement in the WG early on to make all extensions >>in Lemonade Profile Bis mandatory for servers to support. >>I think we will get ourselves into all sort of troubles during >>the deployment phase if we try to change this agreement. >> >>But note, this is just an agreement and if there is a really >>good reason for changing it for some extensions, such change >>can be considered. >> _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 03:45:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B64528C9A9; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:45:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bu5v5V9+zIYw; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E0A28C611; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:45:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 1F25328C56E; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:45:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080221114502.1F25328C56E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:45:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : The Lemonade Profile Author(s) : D. Cridland, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt Pages : 36 Date : 2008-02-21 This document describes a profile (a set of required extensions, restrictions and usage modes) of the IMAP and mail submission protocols. This profile allows clients (especially those that are constrained in memory, bandwidth, processing power, or other areas) to efficiently use IMAP and Submission to access and submit mail. This includes the ability to forward received mail without needing to download and upload the mail, to optimize submission and to efficiently resynchronize in case of loss of connectivity with the server. The Lemonade profile relies upon several extensions to IMAP and Mail Submission protocols. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-21034046.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-21034046.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 04:23:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D2E28C958; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:23:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSxaDc8yrW2G; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFB23A6BC9; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:23:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCE728C724 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:23:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vhbQ4X8vf89f for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967513A683B for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:23:27 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD6D1C.2070000@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:22:52 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Cyrus Daboo References: <085091CB2CA14E4B8B163FFC37C84E9D1397BB70@zcarhxm0.corp.nortel.com> <47BC2B43.30609@watson.ibm.com> <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02D10336@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, leiba@watson.ibm.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Cyrus Daboo wrote: >Hi, > >--On February 20, 2008 10:25:58 AM -0600 Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com wrote: > > >>I'm with you. So far I only know of a morning session on Friday for the >>OMA/MEM workshop. If it goes into the afternoon, I'll have to change my >>travel plans, so I need to know soon. But happy to attend if scheduled. >> >> >Well the current IETF agenda has Lemonade and IDN sessions on Friday >morning. So is this workshop meant to replace the Lemonade morning session >on that day, or what? Also note that some people have complained about the >Lemonade/IDN clash so the scheduling of either of those might still change. > > The current plan is to cancel the current allocated Lemonade slot on Friday and use it for the joint meeting. I think people should plan for meeting to last till 3pm. If we finish early, then people will have some free time. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 05:56:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E853A6DE8; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbNcbM+zSdvg; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F7D28C776; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65CE28C3B2 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vohq3wdoKwmh for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1733A68FD for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1LDuDXR030722 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:13 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1LDuBdb018113 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:56:12 -0800 Received: from 172.24.28.46 ([172.24.28.46]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:56:11 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:55:55 -0800 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop Thread-Index: Ach0kXo9uLNsXOCEEdylngAWy4mm/w== In-Reply-To: <47BD6D1C.2070000@isode.com> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org We are working on finding a room. We have our morning slot from the IETF, but we do not yet have a room for the afternoon. We cannot get a room from the IETF for the afternoon, so we are working directly with the hotel to find out if they have a room available and how much it would cost. In light of this, we are looking for: 1) A company with a nearby office with a large enough conference room that would be willing to let us use it. BEA's offices are 45 minutes outside Philadelphia, so that is not a realistic option. This option would be somewhere between free to a nominal charge for lunch. From a logistics perspective, it would be better to abandon our room at the Marriott and spend the day at this venue. 2) Companies who are willing to sponsor a room and possibly lunch at the Marriott. 3) Self-funding, where people chip in to pay for a room at the Marriott. Depending on how many people show up, this could run as high as $50 per person. 4) Other? ______________________ (fill in the blank) If you are in a position to find us #1 or can commit to #2, please contact Glenn or myself ASAP. If we cannot find a host or sponsor, please let us know ASAP if #3 is a total non-starter. Of course, we would be really interested in creative #4's. On 2/21/08 4:22 AM, "Alexey Melnikov" wrote: > Cyrus Daboo wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> --On February 20, 2008 10:25:58 AM -0600 Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com wrote: >> >> >>> I'm with you. So far I only know of a morning session on Friday for the >>> OMA/MEM workshop. If it goes into the afternoon, I'll have to change my >>> travel plans, so I need to know soon. But happy to attend if scheduled. >>> >>> >> Well the current IETF agenda has Lemonade and IDN sessions on Friday >> morning. So is this workshop meant to replace the Lemonade morning session >> on that day, or what? Also note that some people have complained about the >> Lemonade/IDN clash so the scheduling of either of those might still change. >> >> > The current plan is to cancel the current allocated Lemonade slot on > Friday and use it for the joint meeting. > I think people should plan for meeting to last till 3pm. If we finish > early, then people will have some free time. > > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:08:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2350628C2A3; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:08:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.163, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1pTQ3wAiRRS5; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9BC3A69D0; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:08:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79833A69BB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:08:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jSHCV1wAmIRz for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2473A68ED for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1LE7h5k021739 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:07:43 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m1LE7hW9223292 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:07:43 -0500 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1LE7gLL030798 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:07:42 -0500 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1LE7gEh030205 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:07:42 -0500 Received: from Uranus-009002042023.watson.ibm.com ([9.2.42.23]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1203602853.1839; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:07:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:07:26 -0500 From: Barry Leiba To: lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > Of course, we would be really interested in creative #4's. Any nice, quiet pubs nearby? Barry _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:14:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 306543A6E87; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.131 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, TVD_SPACE_RATIO=2.219] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40g1BUHorspc; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3559F3A6E82; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBCA3A696A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hkt7CWkMsCuE for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta01.zimbra.com (mta01.zimbra.com [77.67.121.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB98F3A6E7E for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (dogfood.zimbra.com [10.10.140.44]) by mta01.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BBDDE8E16 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A004C176 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dogfood.zimbra.com Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dogfood.zimbra.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XdSRzbCw3csa for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D3C4C169 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:14:39 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Karp To: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Message-ID: <237139027.205631203603279331.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <20080221114502.1F25328C56E@core3.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org When did SORT, ESORT, and CONTEXT=SORT get included in profile-bis? _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:20:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50643A6E97; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:20:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S7npgAV-Z2Im; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD163A6E88; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:20:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CCE3A6A09 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:20:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8fsxFFuzAGMk for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C7E3A6E7C for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1LEKYYK023903; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:21:44 -0600 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:20:08 +0200 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:20:08 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:20:26 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop Thread-Index: Ach0kXo9uLNsXOCEEdylngAWy4mm/wAAcCZQ References: <47BD6D1C.2070000@isode.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Feb 2008 14:20:08.0091 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC59BEB0:01C87494] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Eric, #1 is a no-go for us. #2 cannot commit at the moment (the person making approvals for such thing = is on vacation), but still asking around. #3 this I can commit to, but OMA folks should be informed so they are not s= urprised. #4 I think we should query the OMA MEM participants as well? They might hav= e an office there. I can offer carrying a projector there, so we would not have to rent one. One practical thing. There are a few OMA MEM delegates would do not participate IETF meetings, a= nd they would not want to pay registration fee for the whole week when they= attend only for a few hours. So, it might be a good idea to have the whole= Friday outside of facilities that are provided by IETF. Personally, I do not think it matters where the room is - hotel, restaurant= , even a pub - as long as it is quiet, closed doors and there is a electric= ity and white wall for projecting things. Thank You for arranging this. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org = >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger >Sent: 21 February, 2008 15:56 >To: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop > >We are working on finding a room. We have our morning slot = >from the IETF, but we do not yet have a room for the afternoon. > >We cannot get a room from the IETF for the afternoon, so we = >are working directly with the hotel to find out if they have a = >room available and how much it would cost. > >In light of this, we are looking for: > >1) A company with a nearby office with a large enough = >conference room that would be willing to let us use it. BEA's = >offices are 45 minutes outside Philadelphia, so that is not a = >realistic option. This option would be somewhere between free = >to a nominal charge for lunch. From a logistics perspective, = >it would be better to abandon our room at the Marriott and = >spend the day at this venue. > >2) Companies who are willing to sponsor a room and possibly = >lunch at the Marriott. > >3) Self-funding, where people chip in to pay for a room at the = >Marriott. >Depending on how many people show up, this could run as high = >as $50 per person. > >4) Other? ______________________ (fill in the blank) > > >If you are in a position to find us #1 or can commit to #2, = >please contact Glenn or myself ASAP. If we cannot find a host = >or sponsor, please let us know ASAP if #3 is a total non-starter. > >Of course, we would be really interested in creative #4's. > > > >On 2/21/08 4:22 AM, "Alexey Melnikov" = > wrote: > >> Cyrus Daboo wrote: >> = >>> Hi, >>> = >>> --On February 20, 2008 10:25:58 AM -0600 = >Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com wrote: >>> = >>> = >>>> I'm with you. So far I only know of a morning session on = >Friday for = >>>> the OMA/MEM workshop. If it goes into the afternoon, I'll have to = >>>> change my travel plans, so I need to know soon. But happy = >to attend if scheduled. >>>> = >>>> = >>> Well the current IETF agenda has Lemonade and IDN sessions = >on Friday = >>> morning. So is this workshop meant to replace the Lemonade morning = >>> session on that day, or what? Also note that some people have = >>> complained about the Lemonade/IDN clash so the scheduling = >of either of those might still change. >>> = >>> = >> The current plan is to cancel the current allocated Lemonade slot on = >> Friday and use it for the joint meeting. >> I think people should plan for meeting to last till 3pm. If = >we finish = >> early, then people will have some free time. >> = >> _______________________________________________ >> lemonade mailing list >> lemonade@ietf.org >> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade >> Supplemental Web Site: >> http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > > >Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, = >may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its = >subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be = >confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally = >privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the = >individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the = >intended recipient, and have received this message in error, = >please immediately return this by email and then delete it. >_______________________________________________ >lemonade mailing list >lemonade@ietf.org >http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade >Supplemental Web Site: >http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:25:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E693A6EA6; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:25:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.525, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sKbcaeqJk+zq; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5045F3A6EA0; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361F73A6E91 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:25:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OgiDDDzR0qzu for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE203A6E9C for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:25:10 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD899C.2020203@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:24:28 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Dan Karp References: <237139027.205631203603279331.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <237139027.205631203603279331.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Dan Karp wrote: >When did SORT, ESORT, and CONTEXT=SORT get included in profile-bis? > > During the Lemonade interim last spring. Philip van Hoof said that CONTEXT=SEARCH is not that useful without sorting. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:38:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CF23A6E8D; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lp0Ag-CvPN1b; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C644E3A6E6B; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:53 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955C43A69BB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J8kiAy3GNeZZ for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta01.zimbra.com (mta01.zimbra.com [77.67.121.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98AF3A68FD for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (dogfood.zimbra.com [10.10.140.44]) by mta01.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82821DE90C9; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F08A4C174; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dogfood.zimbra.com Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dogfood.zimbra.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aD3D8jZHnQqm; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4144C169; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:38:44 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Karp To: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <1489329588.206301203604724049.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <47BD899C.2020203@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > >When did SORT, ESORT, and CONTEXT=SORT get included in profile-bis? > > During the Lemonade interim last spring. Philip van Hoof said that > CONTEXT=SEARCH is not that useful without sorting. First, that's poppycock. If a client can operate *without* CONTEXT=SEARCH, adding CONTEXT=SEARCH does not add any need for sorting whatsoever. Second, the more MUSTs you add, the less chance a server dev has of meeting them all. If you want Lemonade to be widely implemented, you *need* to pare it down to things that are actually necessary. And adding a major dependency like SORT just to make a minor feature like CONTEXT=SEARCH work better is ludicrous. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:44:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C463A6E93; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:44:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.363 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.363 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b2lxmtXtc2Ie; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DE63A6DD5; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:43:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8E33A6DD5 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:43:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nq6mdPGwz+VG for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C533A69BB for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:43:53 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD8DFE.7010501@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:43:10 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Dan Karp References: <1489329588.206301203604724049.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <1489329588.206301203604724049.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Dan Karp wrote: >>>When did SORT, ESORT, and CONTEXT=SORT get included in profile-bis? >>> >>> >>During the Lemonade interim last spring. Philip van Hoof said that >>CONTEXT=SEARCH is not that useful without sorting. >> >> >First, that's poppycock. If a client can operate *without* CONTEXT=SEARCH, adding CONTEXT=SEARCH does not add any need for sorting whatsoever. > > My point was that if a client uses CONTEXT=SEARCH, that it would likely need CONTEXT=SORT. This was something said by a client developer. Now, if you want to argue against removal of CONTEXT=SEARCH, CONTEXT=SORT and ESORT, feel free to do so. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:52:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C573A6E76; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:52:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.651 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.651 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.214, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35h4HAsSNomK; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1760C28C77F; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:52:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256FF3A6E76 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:52:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n5dCjoxDE6Qj for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782BC28C962 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:52:38 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD900B.3030502@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:51:55 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] List of open issues for IMAP NOTIFY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Below is the list of major open issues with the document. There are some other minor editorial questions which are not worth discussing at this point. 1). Peter Coates has indicated that his implementation can't report ExpungeMessage without NewMessage or vice versa. I've suggested that we should probably combine NewMessage and ExpungeMessage into a single event. So far I can't think of any disadvantage of this: for example if the client would like to know about expunges (so it can handle VANISHED reported at any time), then it is not a big deal to handle (or ignore) notifications about new messages as well. If the client can't handle expunges, then it wouldn't request either. If you can think of a use case when a client would only want NewMessage, but can't handle ExpungeMessage, please let me know. Another way of handling this issue would be to allow the server to announce that certain event types are bundled together. I am not sure if the extra complexity on clients is worth it. 2). Whether BODY FETCH data item in the NOTIFY command (and the like) should automatically set the \Seen flag on newly delivered/appended messages if it is specified in the NewMessage event. The issue needs to be addressed. I prefer to have the same behavior as in FETCH (for consistency), but I don't have a strong opinion on this. Opinions? 3). Peter Coates has suggested that only the SELECTED mailbox matching criteria should apply to the currently selected mailbox. Currently the draft suggests that any mailbox matching criteria can apply to the currently selected mailbox. Speaking as an individual participant in the WG: as this is marginally easier to implement for servers, I am now leaning toward accepting Peter's proposal. Any objections? 4). Peter Coates has suggested removal of ADD/SET keyword in the NOTIFY command, or restrict NOTIFY command to a single event-group. Speaking as an individual participant in the WG: I think we want to allow for at least 2 event groups (one for the currently selected mailbox and one for all other mailboxes). But I can also see use cases for different events on shared mailboxes, etc. If we have 2, a rule of good design suggests that we should allow for any number. Now, regarding SET versa ADD. If we allow for multiple event groups above, this means that one need to store them in a server as a list anyway. So restricting NOTIFY to a single event group is not going to make NOTIFY easier to implement for servers. I also see some arguments about ADD (e.g. now monitor this new mailbox). So speaking as an individual, I would like to keep multiple event groups and SET/ADD as is. If you disagree, please speak up *now*. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 06:57:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FFD28C77F; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:57:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id slxGHMjh33lx; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BBD28C777; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411A528C71E for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 87VQzFp+v2Ht for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta01.zimbra.com (mta01.zimbra.com [77.67.121.29]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB3D28C611 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (dogfood.zimbra.com [10.10.140.44]) by mta01.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5D6DE8D45; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A654E4C174; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dogfood.zimbra.com Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dogfood.zimbra.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZOAQbGD9wO74; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogfood.zimbra.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dogfood.zimbra.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931604C169; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:56:38 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Karp To: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <2130753927.207161203605798340.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <1936957076.207011203605639043.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > >First, that's poppycock. If a client can operate *without* > >CONTEXT=SEARCH, adding CONTEXT=SEARCH does not add any need for > >sorting whatsoever. > > My point was that if a client uses CONTEXT=SEARCH, that it would > likely need CONTEXT=SORT. I don't understand the logic here. If SORT isn't a requirement for non-CONTEXT=SEARCH clients, then CONTEXT=SORT isn't a requirement for clients that use CONTEXT=SEARCH. The same client-side display logic should apply in both cases, right? And I hadn't heard anyone arguing that SORT should be a requirement for Lemonade absent CONTEXT=SEARCH. > Now, if you want to argue against removal of CONTEXT=SEARCH, > CONTEXT=SORT and ESORT, feel free to do so. I think that CONTEXT=SEARCH is minor enough that Lemonade will be fine either with or without it. But if it requires dragging in huge prerequisites like SORT, the benefit becomes *way* below the cost. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 07:11:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198823A6E94; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:11:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.693, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zfIozPmGy711; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5583D3A6E13; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:11:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4F43A6E13 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:11:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykrlFqUXz5rO for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E7D3A696A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9F04AC89; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:11:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203606675-60433-579; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:11:15 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:10:36 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1489329588.206301203604724049.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <1489329588.206301203604724049.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Dan Karp writes: >> >When did SORT, ESORT, and CONTEXT=SORT get included in profile-bis? >> >> During the Lemonade interim last spring. Philip van Hoof said that >> CONTEXT=SEARCH is not that useful without sorting. > > First, that's poppycock. If a client can operate *without* > CONTEXT=SEARCH, adding CONTEXT=SEARCH does not add any need for > sorting whatsoever. > > Second, the more MUSTs you add, the less chance a server dev has of > meeting them all. If you want Lemonade to be widely implemented, you > *need* to pare it down to things that are actually necessary. And > adding a major dependency like SORT just to make a minor feature like > CONTEXT=SEARCH work better is ludicrous. Huh. For me SORT was easy, I did it in less than one day, CONTEXT=* will be harder. I agree with your main point. Things are being added too easily. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 07:23:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045DF28CA5B; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:23:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.210, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WvI1Yo1OMwJw; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC3E28C962; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:23:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F0C28C962 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:23:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylPJroK4sQi6 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F5E28CA89 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:22:35 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD970F.4060504@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:21:51 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <1489329588.206301203604724049.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > I agree with your main point. Things are being added too easily. Folks, can you please hold off your arguments about what should be include or excluded from Profile Bis until the interim conference call later today. Note that even if you can't participate in the conference call today, there would be another opportunity at the joint meeting with OMA on March 14th, and yet another opportunity when the Lemonade Profile Bis document will go to WGLC. I would like to ask people to concentrate on closing CONVERT and NOTIFY (in that order). If you think I have infinite amount of energy and free time to argue with everybody, you are seriously mistaken. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 07:46:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4303C28CA01; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:46:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.209, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EADm0POsCR58; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389DE28C852; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766BD28C852 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:46:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7C+Lfqyyw76e for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E3E28C772 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:45:57 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD9C87.50203@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:45:11 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] ToDo list for Lemonade Profile Bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org In preparation for the conference call later today, I am posting my current list of open issues/todos for the Profile Bis document (listed in no particular order of items). I am not going to state my opinion on any of the listed items below, so that people don't get distracted. 1). Decide if Future Release SMTP (RFC 4865) extension should be included. 2). Decide if IMAP Sieve (draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve) should be included. 3). Decide if METADATA-SERVER should be included. 4). Decide if draft-melnikov-imapext-filters should be included. 5). Describe what should happen if a CONVERT URL (which now returns binary data) is used in CATENATE. Does this require a new IMAP capability? Should this be a required extension? 6). Decide if URLFETCH=BINARY should be included (CONVERT URLs will depend on it). 7). Define a new IMAP capability for declaring that URLAUTH and CATENATE support PARTIAL IMAP URLs (see RFC 5092)? 8). Add a new IMAP Keyword for "this message is pending submission" and [possibly] another one for "this message got submitted". 9). New IMAP keyword for "has attachment"? 10). Add ability to discover "special" mailboxes like Trash/Junk/Sent Mail/Drafts ? 11). Should Profile Bis require Sieve AnnotateMore (to read data from per-server annotations, e.g. notification address)? 12). If Sieve and extensions remain in Lemonade Profile Bis, we need a way to manage Sieve scripts. How should this be done? 13). Should the document define a way to find number of attachments? Should this be another extension or just an informative text? 14). Should support for IPv6 be mandated for servers? I am sure there are some things missing from this list. Please let me know what is missing. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 07:55:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A20C28CA61; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.645 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.645 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ODT7ZsVZpheO; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A3328C84E; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F5928C6C5 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:55:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nfBVftHpj3nl for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0328F28C9D4 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:55:27 +0000 Message-ID: <47BD9EBF.5040802@isode.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:54:39 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lemonade WG References: <39741682.27961198095404218.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <479A2470.2050807@isode.com> <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47ACDF9F.8040801@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Discovery of available conversions in CONVERT: poll results X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> Q4: Should CONVERT support discovery of available conversion >> parameters for a particular conversion? >> (feel free to select multiple answers, unless you answer No or >> Undecided) Note that a separate question is asking if discovery >> should be optional or mandatory for servers to implement. >> >> Answers: >> 1). No, reporting that a particular conversion parameter is not >> supported (see CONVERT draft) is sufficient >> 2). Yes, I prefer to use METADATA-SERVER extension (see section 2.2.1 >> of draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt, also see >> draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-12.txt for more information) >> 3). Yes, I prefer to use Dan Karp's proposal (see section 2.2.2 of >> draft-melnikov-lemonade-convert-discovery-00.txt or >> ) >> 4). Yes, I would prefer to list available conversion parameters upon >> a CONVERT command failure caused by an unrecognized conversion >> parameter, for example: >> >> C: b002 CONVERT 2 ("text/plain" ("mumble" "hrrr")) >> (BINARY[3] BODYPARTSTRUCTURE[3]) >> S: * 2 CONVERTED (tag "b002") (BODYPARTSTRUCTURE[3] >> (ERROR "Parameter mumble is not supported for text/plain" >> BADPARAMETERS >> "text/html" "text/plain" ("mumble" "hrrr"))) >> S: * CONVERSIONS "text/html" "text/plain" "charset" >> "UNKNOWN-CHARACTER-REPLACEMENT" >> S: b002 OK Some conversions failed > >> 5). Yes, but I would like to suggest another proposal >> 6). Undecided > > Consensus on this question was even more rough. > > One person was against this (i.e. choice 1). > Choices 3 and 4 had about equal number of votes (counting peoples > second choices), so I think I will need to poll people again to > confirm which one of those two they prefer. Choice 3 was slightly favored by some people. That is what I've done in -15. Unless somebody would suggest syntax for 4 and can argue why it is much better, the document would stay as is. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 09:56:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5973A6CFE; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:56:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.822 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.822 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.385, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dhtq6zj0i0U2; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB15C3A6CF5; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:56:28 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B7A3A6CF9 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:56:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3S+59siXE7Zq for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDFB3A6CF5 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C6F4AC85 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:56:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1203616567-60433-679; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:56:07 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:55:27 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] a CONVERT change X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi, on the phone meeting today we discussed CONVERT, which currently (-15) contains a total of three discovery mechanisms. There was rough consensus to reduce to two. MEDIACAPS dies, CONVERSION and AVAILABLECONVERSIONS survive. We believe that this loses very little. Really stupid clients can issue a fixed string, e.g. "JPEG". With MEDIACAPS they would use MEDIACAPS to say "jpeg is my favourite" and later fetch the default. Smarter clients can issue one of several strategies: - CONVERSIONS followed by a FETCH of the best available laternative - AVAILABLECONVERSIONS ditto - optimistic FETCH followed by discovery if the favourite failed, etc Perhaps more, I was disturbed. The server may still be able to do default conversion based on out-of-band knowledge, meeting an OMA request, but in practice we think one of the four or more strategies above will be used. The client loses the ability to say "I like jpeg, but if you don't support jpeg, I like png too" as a single command. Alexey promised a -16 for tomorrow, without MEDIACAPS. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 10:36:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072E228CAEB; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GY9-ozxY7qPZ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA7428CABC; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF7E28C1F7 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GwudpIfTdtkE for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074BA28CABC for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1203618982; x=1235154982; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject:content-type: x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20|X-Mailer: =20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|X-message-flag:=20Warning: =20Outlook=20in=20use.=20=20Upgrade=20to=20Eudora:=20|Date:=20Thu,=2021=20Feb=202008=2010:3 3:12=20-0800|To:=20Eric=20Burger=20,=20< lemonade@ietf.org>|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[lemonade]=20Summary:=20What =20is=20Profile-bis|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20chars et=3D"us-ascii"=20=3B=20format=3D"flowed" |X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee =3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5234"=3B=20a=3D"746430"; bh=Qy92HUia0TkeyhMHxuy5NfURShp129xHaqFxQAGZfH4=; b=qi1XO3DF4Qr8N+sDVxUSq1OsPXFOgofKomMF+urrhON+u2ty05XoONlu x4yaPzVwp9aD5dlxqtWSMuihV/gqha+BE1X9pUtnonIrQPfxxA14ktqRt K6M7FdAacbkCp2V2TQxuWeNW2ofVX0GfU9+wgDZQDh6lpPMCun/jqvdKe I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5234"; a="746430" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO ithilien.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Feb 2008 10:36:22 -0800 Received: from msgtransport05.qualcomm.com (msgtransport05.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m1LIaLnk011055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:22 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.13] (vpn-10-50-0-104.qualcomm.com [10.50.0.104]) by msgtransport05.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m1LIaJaR019880; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:36:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:33:12 -0800 To: Eric Burger , From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Summary: What is Profile-bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org At 4:19 PM -0800 2/20/08, Eric Burger wrote: > There is strong consensus not to change the title of Profile-bis. Yes. > Moreover, > people seem happy that we will keep our integrity to Profile-bis' purpose by > making it clear in the Abstract and Introduction that Profile-bis' goal is > to satisfy the OMA MEM requirements. This is a goal, but should not be the only goal. > Operationally, this means the primary factor for in/out decisions are the > OMA MEM requirements. I'm not sure that this should be the primary factor. We do want to meet OMA requirements, but we also want to produce a good IETF document. > It also means we dodge the "Is this the OMA MEM > Enabler" question entirely, as the Lemonade Profile is a proper subset of > the OMA MEM requirements. For example, the lock & wipe functionality is > clearly out of scope for the IETF, yet it is a clear requirement for the MEM > Enabler. Yes. > We also know from painful interoperability experience there will be little > to no conditional requirements (SHOULD, MAY, etc.). What we've been doing so far is making server behavior mandatory and client behavior optional. That way clients can interoperate with any lemonade-bis-compliant server. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. --Wilkes, 1949 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 12:00:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039D328C6D9; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:00:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yJX+mTdW+mZU; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C5528C311; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 8E02B3A6CF8; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:00:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080221200001.8E02B3A6CF8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:00:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : Support for Sieve in Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP4) Author(s) : B. Leiba Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2008-02-21 Sieve defines an email filtering language that can, in principle, plug into any point in the processing of an email message. As defined in the base specification, it plugs into mail delivery. This document defines how Sieve can plug into points in the IMAP protocol where messages are created or changed, adding the option of user- defined or installation-defined filtering (or, with Sieve extensions, features such as notifications).Note While this document defines extensions to IMAP and Sieve, it is the work of the Lemonade Working Group (Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments), and discussion of it is on the lemonade mailing list at mailto:lemonade@ietf.org. Subscription requests can be sent to mailto:lemonade-request@ietf.org?body=subscribe (send an email message with the word "subscribe" in the body). A WWW archive of back messages is available at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/index.html A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-21114553.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-21114553.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 21 13:50:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E322B28CAB2; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.261, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OvvMPPyuCGNd; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A544028CA70; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1F528CA9F for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAMpm0KT0B4D for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B92228CA45 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m1LLoYPG000754 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:50:34 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JWL00I01WQIW500@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from peter.coates@sun.com) for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:50:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from kluane ([199.247.229.42]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JWL00D5CZBQMHA0@mail-amer.sun.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:50:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:50:03 -0800 From: Peter Coates To: lemonade@ietf.org Message-id: <033901c874d3$bb7bbfb0$32733f10$%coates@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-language: en-ca Thread-index: Ach007b3OE7eCJLbToKvMBzDyqC3mQ== Subject: [lemonade] SUBMITTED keyword, Outbox and Sent folders, and CATENATE/BURL X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Within IMAP, the "proper" way to mark a message as draft is to use the \draft flag. Similarly the way tentatively to delete a message is to use the \deleted flag. Many clients instead use "Drafts" and "Deleted" folders for this purpose. Other special purpose folders that are commonly used are "Outbox" and "Sent". And perhaps "Spam", but I do not want to go there for the moment. There are no "proper" IMAP ways to mark a message as "Sent" analogous to the \draft or \deleted flags, still less one meaning queued for submission, or being submitted. When I said the "Drafts", "Deleted", "Outbox", and "Sent" are commonly used folders, I overstate. Special folders are used for these four functions, but the names vary. This can and does cause both interoperability issues between clients, and confusion on the part of users. Actually, the "Outbox" folder has historically not caused issues for IMAP servers as this has almost always been a folder that was local to the client, and it is obvious why. With CATENATE and BURL the outbox function, or perhaps I should say the outbox state moves to the server. Let me go through the life cycle of a message being sent from a couple of putative lemonade compliant client which have chosen two different models. The first model is to mark the messages to show state, the other uses different folders for this purpose. I will then start a discussion about what a client should do to achieve the best possible interoperability, and what needs defining for interoperability. Client model 1 (messages marked with state) Define three flags (keywords) for the state of outbound messages: QUEUED (to be submitted as soon as possible) SUBMITTED (successfully submitted to the submit server) 1. The client constructs a message to be sent, eg C: 1 APPEND INBOX (QUEUED) CATENATE (.....) S: 1 OK [APPENDUID 1192256 321] done 2. construct a URL for this message, eg C: 2 GENURLAUTH IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/INBOX;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;UTLAUTH=SUB MIT+userid INTERNAL S: * IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/INBOX;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SUB MIT+userid:internal:12345678 S: 2 OK done 3. submit the message c: mail from: s: 250 2.5.0 OK c: rcpt to: s: 250 2.5.0 OK c: burl IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/INBOX;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SUB MIT+userid:internal:12345678 last s: 250 2.5.0 OK 4. mark the message as having been submitted C: 4 UID STORE 321 flags SUBMITTED Next, the equivalent using Outbox and Sent folders: 1. The client constructs a message to be sent, eg C: 1 APPEND Outbox CATENATE (.....) S: 1 OK [APPENDUID 1192256 321] done 2. construct a URL for this message, eg C: 2 GENURLAUTH IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/Outbox;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SU BMIT+userid INTERNAL S: * IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/Outbox;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SU BMIT+userid:internal:12345678 S: 2 OK done 3. submit the message c: mail from: s: 250 2.5.0 OK c: rcpt to: s: 250 2.5.0 OK c: burl IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/Outbox;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SU BMIT+userid:internal:12345678 last s: 250 2.5.0 OK 4. Move the message to the Sent folder C: 4A SELECT Outbox C: 4B UID COPY 321 Sent S: 4B OK [APPENDUID 1418141 198] done C: 4C UID STORE 321 +flags \deleted C: 4D UID EXPUNGE 321 I believe that users will be more comfortable with the second approach than the former, but that the former is more in the spirit of IMAP than the latter. There is nothing to stop a client using a hybrid approach: 1. The client constructs a message to be sent, eg C: 1 APPEND Outbox (QUEUED) CATENATE (.....) S: 1 OK [APPENDUID 1192256 321] done 2. construct a URL for this message, eg C: 2 GENURLAUTH IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/Outbox;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SU BMIT+userid INTERNAL S: * IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/Outbox;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SU BMIT+userid:internal:12345678 S: 2 OK done 3. submit the message c: mail from: s: 250 2.5.0 OK c: rcpt to: s: 250 2.5.0 OK c: burl IMAP://userid@mail.domain.com/Outbox;UIDVALIDITY=1192256/;UID=321;URLAUTH=SU BMIT+userid:internal:12345678 last s: 250 2.5.0 OK 4. Move the message to the Sent folder C: 4A SELECT Outbox C: 4B UID COPY 321 Sent S: 4B OK [APPENDUID 1418141 198] done C: 4C UID STORE 321 +flags \deleted C: 4D UID EXPUNGE 321 C: 4E SELECT Sent C: 4F UID STORE 198 flags SUBMITTED The Obvious down side to both the approaches using multiple folders is that it requires extra selects which are relatively expensive commands and which lose any CONTEXTS that might be active for the user, and which change the meaning of any NOTIFY command that might be outstanding. One solution to that might be to use a second IMAP session for manipulating the message that is being submitted. These has been some discussion as to whether a third state, a SUBMITTING keyword, is desirable. This all hinges on recovery after a crash, and avoiding having multiple clients all submitting queued messages at the same time. It is asserted that a combination of the SUBMITTING keyword and the CONDSTORE semantics can be used to avoid that scenario. I am not convinced by having a shared Outbox folder being used by multiple clients. I think this might lead to surprises for the user. It might be better for each client to construct a unique name for its outbox. On the other hand, having several Send folders is a known problem. It would be nice if we could suggest that if a client is going to use a folder for sent messages that it use the folder "Sent". That does not preclude the client displaying it as whatever it wants, much as INBOX is displayed as various things in languages other than English. Peter _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 22 04:00:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BC03A6C60; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.653 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.653 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eTEH0W68qvRl; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5D93A6B7B; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275E23A6C54 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id owqNbtoJdWId for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:211:9ff:fe2c:e28e]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A613A6B7B for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from invsysm1 (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:00:07 +0000 References: <033901c874d3$bb7bbfb0$32733f10$%coates@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <033901c874d3$bb7bbfb0$32733f10$%coates@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6978.1203681603.638694@invsysm1> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:00:03 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Peter Coates Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] SUBMITTED keyword, Outbox and Sent folders, and CATENATE/BURL X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu Feb 21 21:50:03 2008, Peter Coates wrote: > 4. Move the message to the Sent folder > C: 4A SELECT Outbox > C: 4B UID COPY 321 Sent > S: 4B OK [APPENDUID 1418141 198] done > C: 4C UID STORE 321 +flags \deleted > C: 4D UID EXPUNGE 321 > > There are various failure states here which can be problematic. Instead of COPY, I'd suggest APPEND Sent (new flags) CATENATE (URL "/Outbox;UID=321") anyway - if you're going to change flags, you might as well rewrite them. > 4. Move the message to the Sent folder > C: 4A SELECT Outbox > C: 4B UID COPY 321 Sent > S: 4B OK [APPENDUID 1418141 198] done > C: 4C UID STORE 321 +flags \deleted > C: 4D UID EXPUNGE 321 > C: 4E SELECT Sent > C: 4F UID STORE 198 flags SUBMITTED Even more so here, of course. > These has been some discussion as to whether a third state, a > SUBMITTING > keyword, is desirable. This all hinges on recovery after a crash, > and > avoiding having multiple clients all submitting queued messages at > the same > time. It is asserted that a combination of the SUBMITTING keyword > and the > CONDSTORE semantics can be used to avoid that scenario. I didn't do this - have a "I intend to submit this message now" flag - for various reasons, including the simple fact that BCC semantics would be somewhat tricky. Also, I'm unnerved by the concept of any message submission happening without the user's explicit go-ahead. With a Queued, Submitted, and Submitting flag, you end up with these states: ___ Inbound normal message __S Inbound message being resubmitted _S_ Inbound message resubmitted _SS Inbound message being re-resubmitted Q__ Complete and ready to send Q_S Complete message being submitted QS_ Sent message QSS Sent message that is now being submitted As a client author, the idea of figuring out how to present 8 different states for a message makes me shudder a bit, frankly, and given that there are, here, several potential failure states (for example, you successfully submit a message, but find yourself unable to add or remove one of the flags, leaving the message is QSS or Q__ states, one of which means it needs to be submitted, and one of which means it is still being resubmitted.) I'm less than convinced all these are useful, too - the user generally will recall if a message was actually sent, they'll also know if they meant to BCC it somewhere, etc. > I am not convinced by having a shared Outbox folder being used by > multiple > clients. I think this might lead to surprises for the user. It > might be > better for each client to construct a unique name for its outbox. Yikes. I'm not convinced - I see no reason why Outbox need not be a virtual view. > On the > other hand, having several Send folders is a known problem. It > would be > nice if we could suggest that if a client is going to use a folder > for sent > messages that it use the folder "Sent". That does not preclude the > client > displaying it as whatever it wants, much as INBOX is displayed as > various > things in languages other than English. > > I find it considerably more convenient to store sent messages within the mailbox I'm storing the related messages in. For example, I might store this message (the one I'm composing now) in a "Mailing Lists/IETF/Lemonade" mailbox, which the MUA can do because it knows the message I'm replying to. (As it happens, I don't have such a mailbox - it's all in my INBOX). Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 22 04:00:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3DC3A6C88; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.707 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.707 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.270, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z77Aee0MPm5J; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C44528C218; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40883A682B for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MulchSQ2hKT9 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:211:9ff:fe2c:e28e]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D241C3A6C60 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from invsysm1 (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:00:20 +0000 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: PIPELINING References: <033901c874d3$bb7bbfb0$32733f10$%coates@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <033901c874d3$bb7bbfb0$32733f10$%coates@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6978.1203681612.492066@invsysm1> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:00:12 +0000 From: Dave Cridland To: Peter Coates Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] SUBMITTED keyword, Outbox and Sent folders, and CATENATE/BURL X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org In the light of Peter's comments, I'd like to outline how Polymer is currently handling similar functionality. Polymer doesn't use special purpose folders, although it can do. Instead its approach is based on using the INBOX primarily. It's sending pattern is, roughly: 1) If it is helpful to stage the message on the server, do so, using tag APPEND (\Draft) ... - for reasons of my own bad programming, it will do this even when the message has already been saved - ie, multiple sending attempts cause multiple copies of the message, which is inarguably wrong. (It creates the new copies quite efficiently, using a copy-via-catenate construct, but still). 2) It then creates a signed URL, and submits the message via BURL. 3) Once it receives the final 2xx from the BURL, it marks the message with a $submitted flag that I vaguely intended mentioning at some point. So \Draft's meaning is essentially unchanged - "this message has been created by the MUA, and may be incomplete". $submitted's meaning is obvious. This yields a state table for messages of something like: \Draft $Submitted State 0 0 Inbound message. 1 0 Message requires further action. 0 1 Message has been resubmitted. 1 1 Message has been "sent". What I actually do, given this, is to set a viewing filter on DRAFT UNKEYWORD $Submitted to colour such messages in violent red, telling me that either the submission failed, or hasn't been attempted yet. Either way, I probably want to do something about it. (Like, finish editing, or attempt to submit it, or something). Given this, my comments (in another message) which pick on Peter's points may be more understandable. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 22 05:00:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FB628CA8B; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:00:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5O1MDYFdjv5h; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A956928C394; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:00:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 0B45B3A6C74; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:00:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080222130002.0B45B3A6C74@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:00:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP CONVERT extension Author(s) : A. Melnikov, P. Coates Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2008-02-22 CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its settings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-22045507.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-22045507.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 22 05:19:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726A03A6CBE; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:19:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.219, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vymzMKGzi9FL; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2073A6CB4; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FB33A6AF7 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:19:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 48DXPDsXoQJl for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09853A6C74 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:19:51 +0000 Message-ID: <47BECBF6.7000606@isode.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:19:50 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] a CONVERT change X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >Alexey promised a -16 for tomorrow, without MEDIACAPS. > This is done now. I would like to ask people that no use case was overlooked with this change. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 22 10:54:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA4528C51C; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:54:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.827 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.827 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.390, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K034zHcVTjwx; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6BA28C602; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:53:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6C228CAAD; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:53:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iS3RrRHesFw0; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA0228CACD; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m1MIpcln007229; Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:51:51 +0200 Received: from daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.112]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:51:31 +0200 Received: from daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.241.35.24]) by daebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:51:27 -0600 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:51:27 -0600 Message-ID: <0AC25B27A4FD2E4B839C9FAF2C704DBA02D445CA@daebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop Thread-Index: Ach0kXo9uLNsXOCEEdylngAWy4mm/wAAcCZQADnjB1A= References: <47BD6D1C.2070000@isode.com> From: To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2008 18:51:27.0730 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE2F4520:01C87583] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com, JS9053@ATT.COM, hubert.segond@orange-ftgroup.com, Mike.M.Parsel@SPRINT.COM Subject: Re: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Eric, = I can query the OMA MEM group next week to confirm who will be at the IETF = meeting and who can (willing) to pay the IETF registration fee. I know of 2 confirmed MEM participants, maybe 3, but since the normal OMA M= EM attendance is low, I'm expecting at most a small turnout from OMA MEM (~= 5 at the very most). Restaurant, bar logistics seem workable to me. = Best Regards, Dorothy > -----Original Message----- > From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] = > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:20 AM > To: eburger@bea.com; lemonade@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA = > MEM workshop > = > Eric, > #1 is a no-go for us. > #2 cannot commit at the moment (the person making approvals = > for such thing is on vacation), but still asking around. > #3 this I can commit to, but OMA folks should be informed so = > they are not surprised. > #4 I think we should query the OMA MEM participants as well? = > They might have an office there. > = > I can offer carrying a projector there, so we would not have = > to rent one. > = > One practical thing. > There are a few OMA MEM delegates would do not participate = > IETF meetings, and they would not want to pay registration = > fee for the whole week when they attend only for a few hours. = > So, it might be a good idea to have the whole Friday outside = > of facilities that are provided by IETF. > = > Personally, I do not think it matters where the room is - = > hotel, restaurant, even a pub - as long as it is quiet, = > closed doors and there is a electricity and white wall for = > projecting things. > = > Thank You for arranging this. > = > Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh > E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com > Phone: +358 50 386 0566 > = > = > = > >-----Original Message----- > >From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > >[mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Burger > >Sent: 21 February, 2008 15:56 > >To: lemonade@ietf.org > >Subject: [lemonade] Room status for IETF LEMONADE / OMA MEM workshop > > > >We are working on finding a room. We have our morning slot from the = > >IETF, but we do not yet have a room for the afternoon. > > > >We cannot get a room from the IETF for the afternoon, so we = > are working = > >directly with the hotel to find out if they have a room = > available and = > >how much it would cost. > > > >In light of this, we are looking for: > > > >1) A company with a nearby office with a large enough = > conference room = > >that would be willing to let us use it. BEA's offices are = > 45 minutes = > >outside Philadelphia, so that is not a realistic option. = > This option = > >would be somewhere between free to a nominal charge for = > lunch. From a = > >logistics perspective, it would be better to abandon our room at the = > >Marriott and spend the day at this venue. > > > >2) Companies who are willing to sponsor a room and possibly lunch at = > >the Marriott. > > > >3) Self-funding, where people chip in to pay for a room at the = > >Marriott. > >Depending on how many people show up, this could run as high = > as $50 per = > >person. > > > >4) Other? ______________________ (fill in the blank) > > > > > >If you are in a position to find us #1 or can commit to #2, please = > >contact Glenn or myself ASAP. If we cannot find a host or sponsor, = > >please let us know ASAP if #3 is a total non-starter. > > > >Of course, we would be really interested in creative #4's. > > > > > > > >On 2/21/08 4:22 AM, "Alexey Melnikov" = > > wrote: > > > >> Cyrus Daboo wrote: > >> = > >>> Hi, > >>> = > >>> --On February 20, 2008 10:25:58 AM -0600 > >Dorothy.Gellert@nokia.com wrote: > >>> = > >>> = > >>>> I'm with you. So far I only know of a morning session on > >Friday for > >>>> the OMA/MEM workshop. If it goes into the afternoon, = > I'll have to = > >>>> change my travel plans, so I need to know soon. But happy > >to attend if scheduled. > >>>> = > >>>> = > >>> Well the current IETF agenda has Lemonade and IDN sessions > >on Friday > >>> morning. So is this workshop meant to replace the = > Lemonade morning = > >>> session on that day, or what? Also note that some people have = > >>> complained about the Lemonade/IDN clash so the scheduling > >of either of those might still change. > >>> = > >>> = > >> The current plan is to cancel the current allocated = > Lemonade slot on = > >> Friday and use it for the joint meeting. > >> I think people should plan for meeting to last till 3pm. If > >we finish > >> early, then people will have some free time. > >> = > >> _______________________________________________ > >> lemonade mailing list > >> lemonade@ietf.org > >> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > >> Supplemental Web Site: > >> http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > > > > > >Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, = > may contain = > >information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and = > affiliated = > >entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, = > copyrighted and/or = > >legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the = > >individual or entity named in this message. If you are not = > the intended = > >recipient, and have received this message in error, please = > immediately = > >return this by email and then delete it. > >_______________________________________________ > >lemonade mailing list > >lemonade@ietf.org > >http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > >Supplemental Web Site: > >http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > > > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > = _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 24 17:02:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C55C28C304; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.58 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.637, BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IeKi0gL2s7+C; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4915B28C25B; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:39 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A41A28C1DF for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vuUbqpAlD3mZ for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B517228C269 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1P11gSs003937; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:01:42 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1P11dnq014088; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:01:41 -0800 Received: from 10.43.242.29 ([10.43.242.29]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 01:01:40 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.4.0.080122 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:26:24 -0500 From: Eric Burger To: Mark Crispin , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Fix it and Deal with the Problem, or Go Away Thread-Index: Achv9FzRm3GYaNvnEdyqOQAWy4mm/wHULCDf In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 2 Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: Re: [lemonade] Fix it and Deal with the Problem, or Go Away X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org To the participants of the lemonade work group: It has come to my attention that it would be easy to interpret the original posting below as a personal attack on Mark. In particular, that I would have desired Mark to leave the work group. In retrospect, I realize my message was overly strong. Moreover, I should not have involved the work group. By any measure, I went out of bounds, and for that, I offer my apology to Mark. Mark has been a valuable contributor to IMAP for many years, and to lemonade in particular. Without his contributions, we would not have probably the most important advance in the state of lemonade Internet e-mail, the Trio. To Mark: I am personally grateful for how you handled what was clearly my gaffe. Please accept my personal apology. I hope you continue to believe the work of the lemonade work group is of value, and please do not "Go Away." Regards to all, Eric On 2/15/08 12:01 PM, "Eric Burger" wrote: > [Was: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message] > > This posting is in my capacity as chair of lemonade, not as a participant. > Feel free to discuss the logic, as since I am also posting in my capacity as > a human, there is a large chance that I am wrong. This message contains no > decisions on protocol discussion. However, it does stipulate behaviors we > expect work group participants to follow. As the IETF is a consensus-based > organization, if you have a problem with this, please bring it up with the > chairs; if you have a serious problem, please bring it up with the area > directors. > > This is a long post. If you do not get to the bottom of the message, I > would like to point out up here that I am reiterating one of Ned's > philosophies in the post. If you get to the bottom, you will see what I am > talking about. This post is in no way targeted toward Ned. > > > There have been a number of postings that suggest that because one or more > large messaging vendors have a poor track record of implementing IETF > protocols, we cannot expect them to implement a this or that IETF lemonade > proposal in the future. Given their dominant position in the market, we > should not attempt to propose this or that lemonade proposal as it would not > be implemented anyway. > > Indulge me with the following logic. > > 1. Consumers of lemonade have a well-known relationship with the > administrator of the IMAP server offering lemonade services. > a. If I am an enterprise consumer, my I.T. Department > has bought a lemonade compliant IMAP server and most > likely tells me which devices I am allowed to use. > Today, this looks like Windows Mobile for Exchange > usersd; BlackBerry or Gold for BES or Gold users > (gatewaying to IMAP, Exchange, or whatever); or > iPhone or other IMAP clients for legacy IMAP users. > b. If I am a typical mobile consumer, I am getting > my mobile e-mail from my mobile service provider. > c. If I am a power mobile consumer, I am most likely > using my own IMAP server. If not, I know who does > administer my IMAP server. > > 2. Given a well-known relationship with the administrator of > the IMAP server, if my mobile e-mail does not work due > to a poor implementation of the server, I know whom to > complain to. Using the cases above: > a. My I.T. Helpdesk > b. My mobile service provider customer service desk > c. My ISP (or myself) > > 3. If one accepts the above logic, then I would offer > poor implementations get detected in the right place, > or at least by people who are in a position to figure > out if there is a client or server problem. > > 4. Normally, the market enforces compliance. If a vendor > is not compliant, the market should punish them by > buying compliant implementations. [Before you respond, > read on...] > > 5. Some servers have such dominant market share that it > becomes a de facto standard. Oftentimes the market > interprets implementation errors or non-interoperable > implementations on the part of such a server to be > errors in the compliant client. > > What does this mean for us? For example, some people say the evil company > [insert your personal favorite target here] will not implement what we > specify here. This could be by design. That is, implement just enough to > say Standard but not enough to really remain proprietary. This could also > be by honest mistakes (implementation errors) or a particular interpretation > of ambiguous specifications. This situation is an objective reality. > However, we have some choices in how to deal with this reality. > > One choice is to say, "No matter what we do, no one will listen to us, so we > should not bother." Another choice is to say, "Standards are important, and > especially for the new work of lemonade, there is a chance most of the > server vendors, big ones included, just might implement the specifications > correctly." > > I am a strong believer in microeconomics. I personally believe > microeconomics (the market) will have us converge on the most efficient > solution. > > If you are seriously in the camp that evil people will be evil and there is > nothing us little people can do about it, please drop off the list. In my > market-based approach to resource allocation, if most of the contributors > here believe that lemonade will not make a difference, then most of the > contributors will stop contributing to lemonade. In this case, I will > happily close down the work group and stop wasting everybody's time. > > If you are in the camp that says we can help change the world for the better > by extending the reach of messaging in a ubiquitous manner, even to devices > of lesser capability or over impaired networks, please accelerate your > efforts to write, review, comment upon, and approve the documents remaining > in our work plan. When we are finished, the market will tell us whether we > were right or not. > > Hence the new Subject for this thread: Fix It and Deal with the Problem, or > Go Away. If there is a way to fix the Internet messaging infrastructure to > support the lemonade environment, please fix it with as much speed as > possible. If you think that no matter what we do nothing will change, > please go away and stop distracting those that do want to finish this work. > > Lastly, as a chair I need to make it abundantly clear that I do NOT consider > Ned in the "in the way" camp. He says how he operates very clearly (sorry > to pull this slightly out of context): > >> This is the main reason I rarely participate in profile discussions - I fail >> to see the point. > > If you look at the archives, Ned is eerily quiet on topics he considers to > be tilting at windmills. For this, as Chair, I am grateful and honor his > methods of participation. > > I would also, as Chair, point out the lemonade list and work group is NOT > the venue for debate as to whether the work of this group is a stupid waste > of time or an honorable investment. I would expect that discussion to occur > at the IMC or some other venue. [Chair hat off - if there is no venue for > people to blow off steam, I can open up a blog for this purpose at > standardstrack.com.] If you personally come to a personal decision that > this work is for naught, please do send the chairs or Area Directors a note > so we can tell the difference between you traveling or taking a vacation and > you leaving. > > Again, I PROMISE that if enough people think no one is going to actually > implement lemonade, we will close the group. > > Conversely, I would request those that remain promise to use realistic > measures for choosing approaches and mechanisms for the implementation of > lemonade. Complexity, difficulty to achieve interoperability, consuming > inordinate amounts of client resources, network resources, or server > resources are all great reasons to reject a particular proposal. "We will > never get brand X to implement a particular proposal" is NOT an acceptable > reason to reject a proposal. > > > NOTE WELL: Consider this a first warning that the chairs will consider > postings in the vein of, "We cannot do X because we will never get server > vendor M to implement it" as disruptive to the consensus-driven process for > developing standards. NOTE WELL THE VERY SPECIFIC USE OF BCP 83 / RFC 3683 > LANGUAGE HERE AND THE IMPLICATIONS THEREOF FOR REPEATED VIOLATION OF THIS > NOTE WELL. > > > On 2/15/08 2:53 AM, "Ned Freed" wrote: > >> >>> The has_attachment flag is purely a UI advisory. We need to standardize >>> the name of the flag, and leave it to the server administrator and >>> client to iterate to a meaning. >> >> So the proposal is to write a short RFC saying "if you want a way to tell >> clients whether or not a message has an attachment - whatever that means - >> use >> this flag". I would characterize such a specification as Mostly Harmless, I >> guess. I do predict some measure of difficulty getting such a specification >> approved absent at least a basic definition of what it means for a message to >> have an attachment. >> >>> To Marks's point this is one that may change over time. >> >> Um, I think that was one of my points, not Mark's. If I understand Mark's >> point >> correctly (and Mark please correct me if I don't) he sees all of this as a >> waste of time since too many server implementors aren't bothering to properly >> implement more basic parts of the IMAP specification, let alone all these >> myriad extensions we're now discussing. So like it or not, clients have to be >> prepared to do all the heavy lifting themselves. >> >>> The quality of the advisory becomes a service differentiator, not an >>> issue of interoperability. Interoperability is limited to the client >>> being able to identify and interpret the flag set by the server. >> >> Greg, I'm afraid that on this one I have to side with Mark. I see very little >> evidence that anyone is basing implementation selection decisions on the >> general availability of these sorts of features. To the extent that features >> are used as a selection criteria, it's invariably the specific features >> someone >> thinks they need in the very short term, irrespective of what those features >> are. >> >> This is the main reason I rarely participate in profile discussions - I fail >> to >> see the point. >> >> Ned >> _______________________________________________ >> lemonade mailing list >> lemonade@ietf.org >> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade >> Supplemental Web Site: >> http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain > information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated > entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or > legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or > entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have > received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and > then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 24 18:45:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E3928C26D; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:45:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w1zVKz8gFw7g; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E243A6B35; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 5D9F73A6B2A; Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:45:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080225024501.5D9F73A6B2A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:45:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : Lemonade Notifications Architecture Author(s) : R. Gellens, S. Maes Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2008-02-24 This document discusses how to provide notification and filtering mechanisms to IMAP to meet Lemonade goals. This document also discusses the use of server to server notifications, and how server to server notifications fit into an architecture which provides server to client notifications. Gellens [page 1] Expires August 2008 Internet Draft Lemonade Notifications Architecture February 2008 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-24183953.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-07.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-02-24183953.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 25 17:48:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42A028CCF4; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:48:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1c8cPhaufBWQ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BB628C6B1; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:45:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 9EC1828C64B; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:45:01 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080226014502.9EC1828C64B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:45:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-04.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : The IMAP NOTIFY Extension Author(s) : C. King Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-04.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2008-2-25 This document defines an IMAP extension which allows a client to request specific kinds of unsolicited notifications for specified mailboxes, such as messages being added to or deleted from mailboxes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-notify-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 25 21:02:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD7F3A6B51; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fS0EEggDq29; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B1E3A67D2; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:25 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C6F3A67A2 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntdn2fPmjIlX for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ladle.sendmail.com (ladle.sendmail.com [209.246.26.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4093A6783 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.sendmail.com (tls.sendmail.com [209.246.26.41]) by ladle.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.1/Sentrion-3.0.0) with ESMTP id m1Q52Wcm016059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:34 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=ladle.dkim; t=1204002155; bh=OQ0RxhgxG5nigTu74gAoaM3HTTOvh1CTQ9FC xuus/L8=; h=Received:X-DKIM:DKIM-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To: cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:X-MM-Ex-RefId; b=PLds1jgJR31xRxPcj+oU7dj32Q8i0mwK5PqQ B+l/6KmW7uMYoLvtu9LXeJSYm75NBXFlFqq21eEff1c00la5IFGY+h+z4oZufWsaSrO ozo64Btn7tqUQOvJB+PPUrQIrI0zHJWoYH3mY+84fgakhqD1NJXmHjyf5KhqPzMW38D s= Received: from [192.168.0.2] (adsl-64-58-1-252.mho.net [64.58.1.252] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by spork.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id m1Q52GMr005513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:02:22 -0800 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.2.2 spork.sendmail.com m1Q52GMr005513 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=spork.dkim; t=1204002144; bh=OQ0RxhgxG5nigTu74gAoaM3HTTOvh1CTQ9FC xuus/L8=; h=Date:From:X-X-Sender:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-MM-Ex-RefId; b=A wxSDJ4RThfpFB4vYaWRI2S0Qvn4vHF4S8lj2brlvtW1k0mADiPP3b4D6ArVeVjHkFh0 wi32ivnTOy3XGnGPaw8nItixBGqHpxk3K91b9/gXqROFy2qu1ZTYoKmViUNboVM0fpw OsooUSK4rOsxgmZm1vn3b0y4Z/GnsmRNW/nc= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:01:27 -0700 From: Philip Guenther X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.mho.net To: Eric Burger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MM-Ex-RefId: 149371::080225210222-0E88DB90-0123F10D/0-0/99-17 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > If it is impossible for the server to determine there is an attachment, it > is impossible for the client to determine there is an attachment. However, > we have tons of existence proofs that clients can determine there is an > attachment. Sure, but that doesn't mean the result of a server's test will be useful to any given client when the client has no way of knowing what the server's algorithm is. What is a client supposed to do with a has-attachment indication that may, from the client's point of view, suffer from both false negatives and false positives? Why bother asking if for something when you can't reliably use the result? > I like Greg's proposal because if, with today's technology, it is hard > to determine if a message has an attachment, we can leave that to > implementers to figure it out. We only have to provide a mechanism for > flagging the message as having attachments. I'm with Ned in that I have a hard time believing that "quality of has-attachment flag" will come anywhere near the top of the radar for people writing RFPs. If you reject the need for an absolute standard for what it means to have an attachment, then servers can't be judged on objective accuracy. They can only be judged on how their interpretation interacts with the customer's mix of clients. If that really was a key point in deciding whether a server "got the deal", it could drive server implementors into trying to guess the "make and model" of a given client session so as to 'tune' its has-attachment responses for that client. That seems like a Bad Thing to me. > I am also hesitant to publish *an* algorithm for determining a message > has attachments, unless it is 100% or is part of a document that > specifies how a composition client composes a message with attachments. > Otherwise, we will be left with *the* algorithm for determining a > message has attachments, whether it is right or wrong. At least if it could guaranteed to suffer _either_ no false positive _or_ no false negatives, then the resulting flag would be potentially useful as an optimization. Then would come the "how useful an optimization is this" discussion. Philip Guenther guenther@sendmail.com _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 25 21:19:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B39B3A6969; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:19:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.771 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.771 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.334, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wRr+Tfs1BLcY; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF543A67A2; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:19:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D963A67A2 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:19:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tH59Q0VJb-pl for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu (mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028083A6783 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.141] (may be forged)) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1Q5ImgN019728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:18:48 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from Shimo-Tomobiki.Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1Q5IlGO021241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:18:48 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:18:45 -0800 From: Mark Crispin To: Philip Guenther In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (WNT 933 2008-02-22) Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.2.25.210524 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __STOCK_PHRASE_7 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org +1 on all points. Strongly. Let me be blunt. A "has attachment" indicator is useless without a specific, unambiguous, definition for what "has attachment" means. And the moment you make such a definition, the majority of implementors will reject that definition since it does not correspond with what they believe it should be. On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Philip Guenther wrote: > On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, Eric Burger wrote: >> If it is impossible for the server to determine there is an attachment, it >> is impossible for the client to determine there is an attachment. However, >> we have tons of existence proofs that clients can determine there is an >> attachment. > > Sure, but that doesn't mean the result of a server's test will be useful > to any given client when the client has no way of knowing what the > server's algorithm is. > > What is a client supposed to do with a has-attachment indication that may, > from the client's point of view, suffer from both false negatives and > false positives? Why bother asking if for something when you can't > reliably use the result? > > >> I like Greg's proposal because if, with today's technology, it is hard >> to determine if a message has an attachment, we can leave that to >> implementers to figure it out. We only have to provide a mechanism for >> flagging the message as having attachments. > > I'm with Ned in that I have a hard time believing that "quality of > has-attachment flag" will come anywhere near the top of the radar for > people writing RFPs. > > If you reject the need for an absolute standard for what it means to have > an attachment, then servers can't be judged on objective accuracy. They > can only be judged on how their interpretation interacts with the > customer's mix of clients. If that really was a key point in deciding > whether a server "got the deal", it could drive server implementors into > trying to guess the "make and model" of a given client session so as to > 'tune' its has-attachment responses for that client. That seems like a > Bad Thing to me. > > >> I am also hesitant to publish *an* algorithm for determining a message >> has attachments, unless it is 100% or is part of a document that >> specifies how a composition client composes a message with attachments. >> Otherwise, we will be left with *the* algorithm for determining a >> message has attachments, whether it is right or wrong. > > At least if it could guaranteed to suffer _either_ no false positive _or_ > no false negatives, then the resulting flag would be potentially useful as > an optimization. Then would come the "how useful an optimization is this" > discussion. > > > Philip Guenther > guenther@sendmail.com > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 06:53:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2983A690C; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.187, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u+QDYI-aL6yp; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D693A6BEF; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:53:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AFB3A6BEF for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:53:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7k6Q0EbopL2X for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDC53A6825 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE3532AEC0; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:53:24 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ETX700XRXG89; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.7] (unknown [10.0.1.7]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0903A32AEB5; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:53:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:53:22 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Philip Guenther , Eric Burger Message-ID: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Philip, --On February 25, 2008 10:01:27 PM -0700 Philip Guenther wrote: > What is a client supposed to do with a has-attachment indication that > may, from the client's point of view, suffer from both false negatives > and false positives? Why bother asking if for something when you can't > reliably use the result? And over time clients may want to have an even more sophisticated indicator of message types beyond just has-attachment. e.g. in Mulberry it can display an attachment icon that is "badged" with addition detail for "styled text message" (contains a text/html alternative), "signed message" (multipart/signed), "encrypted message" (multipart/encrypted), "calendar component" (contains a text/calendar). All of that is done by fetching the BODYSTRUCTURE and doing a client-side analysis. The original premiss for wanting has-attachment was that BODYSTRUCTURE is too expensive. Well perhaps it might be better to work on making that less expensive. We know we already have compression that makes a big difference in reducing the number of bytes. We could also have a lightweight BODYSTRUCTURE alternative that just returns the MIME structure detail in a nested list with the option to only go down to a specified depth - none of the other content-xxx headers, parameters, length etc would need to be sent. That would also significantly reduce the size of the response. This overview of the MIME structure can then be used by clients to do any "has-attachment" type analysis on its own. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 07:27:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEB13A68B5; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:27:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.276 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.276 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eOSY32Ah98QX; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA343A6C46; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:27:23 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB9028C26E for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:27:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6tDPa1ysJtZJ for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F583A6C60 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1QFQh75018051; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:26:43 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1QFQfdp022047; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:26:41 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:26:38 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: Ach4NLDAnE1lHfoNQTGe4nKKgkjT6gAVxY1Q References: From: "Eric Burger" To: "Philip Guenther" x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I thought about it some more, and came to the realization that even clients will get it wrong. What is a multipart/mixed with an audio/alaw with a critical-context of voice-message? It really depends. You win. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Guenther [mailto:guenther+lemonade@sendmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 12:01 AM To: Eric Burger Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > If it is impossible for the server to determine there is an > attachment, it is impossible for the client to determine there is an > attachment. However, we have tons of existence proofs that clients > can determine there is an attachment. Sure, but that doesn't mean the result of a server's test will be useful to any given client when the client has no way of knowing what the server's algorithm is. What is a client supposed to do with a has-attachment indication that may, from the client's point of view, suffer from both false negatives and false positives? Why bother asking if for something when you can't reliably use the result? > I like Greg's proposal because if, with today's technology, it is hard > to determine if a message has an attachment, we can leave that to > implementers to figure it out. We only have to provide a mechanism > for flagging the message as having attachments. I'm with Ned in that I have a hard time believing that "quality of has-attachment flag" will come anywhere near the top of the radar for people writing RFPs. If you reject the need for an absolute standard for what it means to have an attachment, then servers can't be judged on objective accuracy. They can only be judged on how their interpretation interacts with the customer's mix of clients. If that really was a key point in deciding whether a server "got the deal", it could drive server implementors into trying to guess the "make and model" of a given client session so as to 'tune' its has-attachment responses for that client. That seems like a Bad Thing to me. > I am also hesitant to publish *an* algorithm for determining a message > has attachments, unless it is 100% or is part of a document that > specifies how a composition client composes a message with attachments. > Otherwise, we will be left with *the* algorithm for determining a > message has attachments, whether it is right or wrong. At least if it could guaranteed to suffer _either_ no false positive _or_ no false negatives, then the resulting flag would be potentially useful as an optimization. Then would come the "how useful an optimization is this" discussion. Philip Guenther guenther@sendmail.com Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 07:28:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03243A6CCD; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:28:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.361, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BDkjIjFtoPC; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C023A6AF7; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:28:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B903A6AF7 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:28:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6JR9aXc-0+ge for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CF83A68B5 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D7A4AC75; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:28:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1204039684-55744-26; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:28:04 +0100 Message-Id: <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:28:04 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Philip Guenther , Cyrus Daboo Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Cyrus Daboo writes: > The original premiss for wanting has-attachment was that BODYSTRUCTURE > is too expensive. Well perhaps it might be better to work on making > that less expensive. We know we already have compression that makes a > big difference in reducing the number of bytes. FWIW. An impressively thorough investigation (30 seconds) shows that the compressed response for 'fetch x:y (uid envelope bodystructure)' is eight bytes bigger than that to 'fetch x:y (uid envelope)' per message when x:y spans a few hundred messages. Almost too small to believe, so YMMV and I'd be interested to hear about it. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 07:33:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182FC3A6C46; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:33:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.605 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.605 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vbn6M5Z0l+DU; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77983A6C82; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888273A6C82 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:33:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XguWoYsr2RzM for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED0D3A6AF7 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F66B32B4C4; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:33:37 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkphcx3mUe2e; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.7] (unknown [10.0.1.7]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BB932B4B9; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:33:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:33:34 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: <3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Philip Guenther Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Arnt, --On February 26, 2008 4:28:04 PM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> The original premiss for wanting has-attachment was that BODYSTRUCTURE >> is too expensive. Well perhaps it might be better to work on making >> that less expensive. We know we already have compression that makes a >> big difference in reducing the number of bytes. > > FWIW. An impressively thorough investigation (30 seconds) shows that the > compressed response for 'fetch x:y (uid envelope bodystructure)' is eight > bytes bigger than that to 'fetch x:y (uid envelope)' per message when x:y > spans a few hundred messages. Almost too small to believe, so YMMV and > I'd be interested to hear about it. What percentage of those message actually contained "attachments" - i.e. multiparts? Or can you estimate the average number of parts per message for those messages? -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 07:38:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C733A6CB4; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:38:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.364, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u9wmaFuZJ0Dn; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B4628C5BC; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:38:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F3628C5F4 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:38:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51GX4PaiJXPu for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9011428C32C for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8E24AC75; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:38:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1204040321-55744-42; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:38:41 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:38:41 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] notify-04 is there X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Contains what we agreed on last Thursday. Still needs work on the examples. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 07:55:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC89B28C37A; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:55:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.644, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BMNfi1jgMk1I; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9009D28C15C; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32103A6CAB for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ebQfbWBlD980 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD063A6C64 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.227]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1QFt1jc013633 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:55:01 -0500 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (d03av03.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.169]) by d03relay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m1QFtQbM166158 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:55:26 -0700 Received: from d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1QFtQ90027077 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:55:26 -0700 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1QFtQlR027063 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:55:26 -0700 Received: from dyn9002042023.watson.ibm.com ([9.2.42.23]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1204041327.86; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:55:27 -0400 Message-ID: <47C4366E.9010503@watson.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 10:55:26 -0500 From: Barry Leiba User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > The original premise for wanting has-attachment was that BODYSTRUCTURE is > too expensive. Well perhaps it might be better to work on making that less > expensive. We know we already have compression that makes a big difference > in reducing the number of bytes. We could also have a lightweight > BODYSTRUCTURE alternative I think the original premise is short-sighted. Even for cellular networks, bytes over the air are getting cheaper and faster at a much greater rate than protocols get developed. I'd really hate to gum up the protocol with something like this, just to provide a pretty minor optimization that won't be needed in two years anyway. Please, let's declare this one dead, yes? Barry _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 26 08:23:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315BE28C37D; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:23:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.321, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kQKhw8A1cDin; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B60B3A6CC9; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:23:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9E73A6CC9 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:23:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NH6cje2jcJ41 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:23:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freax.org (mail.freax.org [86.39.154.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEB43A68F3 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA056ECA2D; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:12:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail.freax.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.freax.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vlb3lKrXwkCE; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:12:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (pvanhoof.freax.org [86.39.154.67]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.freax.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7A5ECA28; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:12:48 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Van Hoof To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:22:54 +0100 Message-Id: <1204042974.8406.49.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Philip Guenther , Cyrus Daboo Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 2008-02-26 at 16:28 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Cyrus Daboo writes: > > The original premiss for wanting has-attachment was that BODYSTRUCTURE > > is too expensive. Well perhaps it might be better to work on making > > that less expensive. We know we already have compression that makes a > > big difference in reducing the number of bytes. > FWIW. An impressively thorough investigation (30 seconds) shows that the > compressed response for 'fetch x:y (uid envelope bodystructure)' is > eight bytes bigger than that to 'fetch x:y (uid envelope)' per message > when x:y spans a few hundred messages. Almost too small to believe, so > YMMV and I'd be interested to hear about it. That's interesting. Because with those numbers it would not really make a lot of sense to add things to the protocol for a has-attachment marker: In stead, just require either TLS with compression and/or COMPRESS in Lemonade. The eight bytes make sense to me if the majority of strings in the body- structure response are the same for most messages. Which sounds to me like the case for average mailboxes. So it's not a very surprising number (although admittedly very small). Would it be possible to do similar tests with larger mailboxes? -- Philip Van Hoof, freelance software developer home: me at pvanhoof dot be gnome: pvanhoof at gnome dot org http://pvanhoof.be/blog http://codeminded.be _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 27 01:46:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7053A6DF7; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:46:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.352, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7uvz7K8CeLN; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CE43A69B3; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:46:28 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B35A3A67E6 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:46:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snzYUOp7wDNS for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF923A6781 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328E04AC23; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:46:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1204105562-60346-390; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:46:02 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:46:02 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> In-Reply-To: <3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Philip Guenther , Cyrus Daboo Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Cyrus Daboo writes: > What percentage of those message actually contained "attachments" - > i.e. multiparts? I know it can be counted, but I don't know how, I'm afraid. > Or can you estimate the average number of parts per message for those > messages? That I can count. 2.1. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 27 01:53:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919DB3A6993; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:53:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.349, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZ3qGsYENDWr; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AA63A681B; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:53:28 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72E43A69D6 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8QD-r5E8x8je for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3DB3A67E6 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD894AC23; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:53:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from 195.30.37.9 (HELO libertango.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1204105993-60346-397; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:53:13 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:53:13 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <1204042974.8406.49.camel@schtrumpf> In-Reply-To: <1204042974.8406.49.camel@schtrumpf> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Philip Guenther , Cyrus Daboo Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Philip Van Hoof writes: > That's interesting. Because with those numbers it would not really > make a lot of sense to add things to the protocol for a > has-attachment marker: > > In stead, just require either TLS with compression and/or COMPRESS in > Lemonade. We already do that. > The eight bytes make sense to me if the majority of strings in the > body-structure response are the same for most messages. Which sounds > to me like the case for average mailboxes. So it's not a very > surprising number (although admittedly very small). > > Would it be possible to do similar tests with larger mailboxes? Deflate doesn't do noticeably worse when the input size increases, so I think that's a waste of time. But it's easy to do, so if you're curious, go ahead. If you want an account on a server which supports COMPRESS=DEFLATE I can give you one. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 27 07:22:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174EA28C31A; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:22:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.639 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.639 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.202, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Hs71Dln7Gnf; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92073A6A14; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:22:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2143B3A6CD6 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:22:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cTxugHSJGVK5 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED9C3A6E15 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 07:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964BF3369FA; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:22:00 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zXDT4PPRdF4k; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85EDC3369F3; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:21:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:21:56 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: <27B1EB56CB5A3356655C1478@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Philip Guenther Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Arnt, --On February 27, 2008 10:46:02 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> What percentage of those message actually contained "attachments" - >> i.e. multiparts? > > I know it can be counted, but I don't know how, I'm afraid. Ha - turns out that Mulberry has a mailbox column display for the number of parts in a message. So choosing that and sorting by that column allows a quick determination of this. So for my home and work Inboxes I have: home: 35% of messages had more than one part work: 40% of messages had more than one part >> Or can you estimate the average number of parts per message for those >> messages? > > That I can count. 2.1. This is the average number of "leaf" nodes in the MIME hierarchy as that is what Mulberry counts (i.e. multiparts are not counted): home: 1.6 average number of parts per message work: 1.5 average number of parts per message Of course these numbers will varying a lot based on different user "profiles" and types of activity. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 27 16:00:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBCDB28C3B9; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:00:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MOwlk6aVF86; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954173A6AE3; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id E846E3A6AE3; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:00:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080228000001.E846E3A6AE3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:00:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : Streaming Internet Messaging Attachments Author(s) : N. Cook Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2008-2-27 This document describes a method for streaming multimedia attachments received by a resource constrained and/or mobile device from an IMAP server. It allows such clients, which often have limits in storage space and bandwidth, to play video and audio e-mail content. The document describes a profile for making use of the IMAP URLAUTH extension (RFC 4467), the Network Announcement SIP Media Service (RFC 4240), and the Media Server Control Markup Language (RFC 4722). The document also defines a new IMAP METADATA entry. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-2-27155914.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-2-27155914.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 28 05:34:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F41628C105; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:34:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.782 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcQAJ8qA4LTJ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EBF3A6927; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:34:27 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07823A6964 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:34:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07FkrHpdOt2f for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.noware.co.uk (noware.co.uk [82.153.134.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F81D3A6927 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.noware.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1008) id BC2D237B3; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:19:06 +0000 (GMT) X-CMAE-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=bfLuiRfvAAAA:8 a=CtSrt99obxRBnGVM4NIA:9 a=aaF8a0seTfeetWfu8e4A:7 a=t27k9V4dKSH3fqi3SiHtPeBg-W8A:4 a=kkUMZHjH4KkA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 Received: from [192.168.0.111] (anagu.york.openwave.com [192.168.0.111]) by mail.noware.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A75336EC for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:19:06 +0000 (GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) In-Reply-To: <20080228000001.E846E3A6AE3@core3.amsl.com> References: <20080228000001.E846E3A6AE3@core3.amsl.com> Message-Id: From: Neil Cook Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:34:07 +0000 To: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This new draft fixes the URLAUTH=BINARY examples according to -01 of Dave Cridland's draft. Neil On 28 Feb 2008, at 00:00, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to > Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Streaming Internet Messaging Attachments > Author(s) : N. Cook > Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt > Pages : 31 > Date : 2008-2-27 > > This document describes a method for streaming multimedia attachments > received by a resource constrained and/or mobile device from an > IMAP > server. It allows such clients, which often have limits in storage > space and bandwidth, to play video and audio e-mail content. > > The document describes a profile for making use of the IMAP URLAUTH > extension (RFC 4467), the Network Announcement SIP Media Service > (RFC > 4240), and the Media Server Control Markup Language (RFC 4722). > The > document also defines a new IMAP METADATA entry. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade- > streaming-04.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-04.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-ID: <2008-2-27155914.I-D@ietf.org> > > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 28 08:31:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097EF28C5E9; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:31:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.337 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEQsLRiX-GlJ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02F93A6E5D; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155FB3A6E5D for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pvgSOEeAtbln for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AE73A6974 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:30:47 +0000 Message-ID: <47C6E19E.1030508@isode.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:30:22 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Dan Karp , Lemonade WG References: <664108222.61941204150747909.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> In-Reply-To: <664108222.61941204150747909.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: IMAP Extensions WG , Timo Sirainen , Mark Crispin Subject: [lemonade] Use of IMAP SORT in Lemonade Profile Bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Dan Karp wrote: >So I think that it's a very good idea that "these issues be punted to >future work in new standards," as you put it. So I'll again put forth a >kick-the-can-down-the-road proposal: > > ... removing the FROM, TO, and CC sorts from the draft and > publishing it as SORT=BASE. Then any existing server implementation > could advertise both SORT and SORT=BASE, indicating that they > support both the published RFC as well as the 3 deprecated address > sorts. A subsequent draft could define SORT=FROM, with [an > alternative] algorithm for FROM sorting. > > Speaking specifically on proposed use of SORT in the Lemonade Profile Bis document: just an idea (and I reserve the right to change my mind :-)) In Lemonade Profile Bis we could define something like a new SORT-BASE extension (avoid = in the capability name, as Mark pointed out that any SORT= implies superset of SORT functionality) that only requires implementation of a subset of SORT keys that people find useful in Lemonade context. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 28 08:54:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23DC28C97D; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.144 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.144 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.707, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9WBRWaeVvkU3; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CCA28C937; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14E028C7F9 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:54:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vr62uK8J0b94 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu (mxout3.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.166]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1080D28C961 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.7] (may be forged)) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1SGrNqd010124 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:53:23 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1SGrLFU025200 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:53:22 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Alexey Melnikov In-Reply-To: <47C6E19E.1030508@isode.com> Message-ID: References: <664108222.61941204150747909.JavaMail.root@dogfood.zimbra.com> <47C6E19E.1030508@isode.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 937 2008-02-28) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.2.28.83818 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_800_899 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: Lemonade WG , IMAP Extensions WG , Timo Sirainen Subject: Re: [lemonade] Use of IMAP SORT in Lemonade Profile Bis X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Speaking specifically on proposed use of SORT in the Lemonade Profile Bis > document: just an idea (and I reserve the right to change my mind :-)) > In Lemonade Profile Bis we could define something like a new SORT-BASE > extension (avoid = in the capability name, as Mark pointed out that any > SORT= implies superset of SORT functionality) that only requires > implementation of a subset of SORT keys that people find useful in Lemonade > context. While we are it it, why doesn't Lemonade create its own non-interoperable subset of RFC 2822, SMTP, and IMAP? That makes about as much sense. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 28 17:51:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7637228C6C4; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TehsCI9ZQftF; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0052728C2B4; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:53 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F40128C2B4 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JFHhmBwa8JA8 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E0B28C0E8 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1T1paaM011039; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:36 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1T1pYQb005403; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:34 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:30 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <27B1EB56CB5A3356655C1478@caldav.corp.apple.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: Ach5VIn8vYCbCKDUTeS4jmmSXqCF9ABIQTew References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local><8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com><3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> <27B1EB56CB5A3356655C1478@caldav.corp.apple.com> From: "Eric Burger" To: "Cyrus Daboo" , "Arnt Gulbrandsen" , x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: Philip Guenther Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org And how many are X-TNEF? Would a "smart" client call that an attachment? -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cyrus Daboo Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:22 AM To: Arnt Gulbrandsen; lemonade@ietf.org Cc: Philip Guenther Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Hi Arnt, --On February 27, 2008 10:46:02 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> What percentage of those message actually contained "attachments" - >> i.e. multiparts? > > I know it can be counted, but I don't know how, I'm afraid. Ha - turns out that Mulberry has a mailbox column display for the number of parts in a message. So choosing that and sorting by that column allows a quick determination of this. So for my home and work Inboxes I have: home: 35% of messages had more than one part work: 40% of messages had more than one part >> Or can you estimate the average number of parts per message for those >> messages? > > That I can count. 2.1. This is the average number of "leaf" nodes in the MIME hierarchy as that is what Mulberry counts (i.e. multiparts are not counted): home: 1.6 average number of parts per message work: 1.5 average number of parts per message Of course these numbers will varying a lot based on different user "profiles" and types of activity. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 08:28:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2A33A686A; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0MUdz1fDLPpZ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D475428C1BB; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:44 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4A13A69D6 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6UBsDLOgkbx9 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6580128C346 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:27:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MRV1C3OI2O000MH7@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MRUXGVCTQO00005P@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:27:41 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01MRV1C2PQD400005P@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:24:56 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:51:30 -0800" References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> <27B1EB56CB5A3356655C1478@caldav.corp.apple.com> To: Eric Burger DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1204302463; h=Date: From:Subject:MIME-version:Content-type; b=PtTwp4Jz+2IBTSNjTcAUZjFCG R4W7gemRd2Ly0GhkkUZt4AY80zsECHD0v6MA+OQUphRGLhKtoQdvGq7cRV1JA== Cc: Cyrus Daboo , lemonade@ietf.org, Philip Guenther Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > And how many are X-TNEF? Would a "smart" client call that an > attachment? Given that TNEF can be (a) Markup for the preceeding text part (b) An attachment container, or (c) Both, absent actual analysis of the content there's no way to tell. And this ignores the common (d) Client can't deal with TNEF anyway so might as well ignore it entirely, which in addition to being client specific doesn't exactly fit into either boolean possibility, does it? Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 08:45:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106EC28C672; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.355 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.355 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yGEA0f1Z3x3o; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16743A6926; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4837928C651 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RLGIJsRkoP1g for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFC528C3FB for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1TGjHrL005918; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:17 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m1TGjDlu031207; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:16 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:45:12 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01MRV1C2PQD400005P@mauve.mrochek.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message Thread-Index: Ach68AjeBgj2q0P3SGGAdxs7BCA+VgAAi7Sg References: <661DF425B4E803C74CE888C8@ninevah.local> <8duStexcACOlvZuw6vhafg.md5@libertango.oryx.com> <3C42FC61AFD98C8C4AEC89E6@ninevah.local> <27B1EB56CB5A3356655C1478@caldav.corp.apple.com> <01MRV1C2PQD400005P@mauve.mrochek.com> From: "Eric Burger" To: "Ned Freed" x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Precisely. This is why I gave up on the concept of the server figuring out "has attachment." -----Original Message----- From: Ned Freed [mailto:ned.freed@mrochek.com] Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 11:25 AM To: Eric Burger Cc: Cyrus Daboo; Arnt Gulbrandsen; lemonade@ietf.org; Philip Guenther Subject: Re: [lemonade] Determining the "has attachment" status of a message > And how many are X-TNEF? Would a "smart" client call that an > attachment? Given that TNEF can be (a) Markup for the preceeding text part (b) An attachment container, or (c) Both, absent actual analysis of the content there's no way to tell. And this ignores the common (d) Client can't deal with TNEF anyway so might as well ignore it entirely, which in addition to being client specific doesn't exactly fit into either boolean possibility, does it? Ned Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 29 09:03:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727AA3A693A; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:03:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.684, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYx4Mx3PFSbT; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6977E28C680; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:03:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E1E28C587 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zANq8IM+S5eI for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout7.cac.washington.edu (mxout7.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B9C28C684 for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.141] (may be forged)) by mxout7.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1TH2P35016785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:02:26 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m1TH2Ocm020838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:02:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: lemonade@ietf.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 937 2008-02-28) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.2.29.84842 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __LINES_OF_YELLING 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Subject: [lemonade] on protocol complexity, server compliance, and winding up Lemonade X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Apparently, the IBM Domino server does not properly execute FROM searches if the string being searched is lengthy and/or contains non-alphabetic characters. That is, we know that tag SEARCH FROM freddy works, but tag SEARCH FROM canned-fish-examples does not. The FROM string is properly returned in the ENVELOPE. This, in turn, caused the user's filters (which use the SEARCH command) in Alpine to fail to function properly. I have not seen any evidence of market forces compelling the IBM Domino server to be fixed or removed from the market. Nor, for that matter, have market forces compelled fixes in the base specification compliance issues in Microsoft Exchange server, or Google Gmail server. Rather, these servers are growing in market share by leaps and bounds. The market reality is that there is no such thing as a "server bug" in IMAP. There are only client bugs. How is it, then, that the Lemonade WG expects that the far more complex server-based and server-dependent mechanisms being discussed -- many of which have only the faintest relationship to mobile device requirements -- will ever become reliably available to clients? Note that word "reliable". Most client authors will abandon a functionality if even one server gets it wrong and causes the client to fail. This has been the history of IMAP in the past two decades and there is no evidence that Lemonade-enhanced IMAP will be any different. In reviewing the charter and what has been accomplished: The trio is quite complex; but it accomplishes something that Lemonade, by charter, needed to do. With the possible removal of CATENATE (to a duo rather than a trio), it is difficult to see how the trio can be made much simpler. CATENATE gave good reason to live: it is by far the easiest part of the trio to implement in a server, it can be ignored by clients, and most importantly it provides a solution for "sent messages" for mobile devices. NOTIFY is needed to provide the functionality of Push in IMAP's Pull world when IDLE is not good enough. Alas, NOTIFY has also taken on more than it was chartered to do. What is *needed*, as opposed to *desired*, is a NOTIFY that is no more than a biff. Work on a more ambitious NOTIFY mechanism should be punted to another working group. At this point, Lemonade's chartered work is done. None of the other stuff being discussed now -- CONDSTORE, METADATA, LISTEXT, ESEARCH, CONVERT, and yes even SORT and THREAD -- are directly germane to the chartered work of Lemonade. Yes, these pretty little toys make life easier for a client implementor. I certainly find SORT and THREAD to be lifesavers to the point that a server which lacks them is barely usable. But they are NOT specific to the needs of mobile devices. NOWHERE in the charter does it talk about CONDSTORE, METADATA, LISTEXT, ESEARCH, CONVERT, SORT, THREAD, or BOMBASTIC-BLURDYBLOOP. Do a quick polishing-up on the trio, strip NOTIFY to bare bones, throw together some quick recommendation on returning a RSS pointer for streaming (which is all the charter really calls for), then DECLARE VICTORY AND DISBAND. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade