From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 1 10:30:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5998728C424; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 7960F3A6D78; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080401173001.7960F3A6D78@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP CONVERT extension Author(s) : A. Melnikov, P. Coates Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2008-04-01 CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its settings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-01102920.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 1 10:41:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5337528C4B0; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BA33A6DB1 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:41:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.348, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tYjlbabvAUfG for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FD93A6D78 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 18:41:54 +0100 Message-ID: <47F273BD.5020906@isode.com> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:41:17 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <20080401173001.7960F3A6D78@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20080401173001.7960F3A6D78@core3.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. > > > Title : IMAP CONVERT extension > Author(s) : A. Melnikov, P. Coates > Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt > Pages : 29 > Date : 2008-04-01 > >CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request >adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify >the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge >of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its >settings. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt > > Despite the date, this is not an April's 1st joke. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 2 06:37:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A972A3A6A4A; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1328C3A6CDA for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:36:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ei6eSa-yaPNH for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742ED3A6A4A for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 06:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m32DXj5u011972 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:33:45 -0400 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.7) with ESMTP id m32DZQD5190678 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:35:26 -0600 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m32DZQE2017870 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:35:26 -0600 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m32DZPlM017828 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:35:25 -0600 Received: from Uranus-009002042023.watson.ibm.com ([9.2.42.23]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1207143325.8143; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 08:35:25 -0400 Message-ID: <47F38B9D.5080207@watson.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:35:25 -0400 From: Barry Leiba User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] OT: Conference on Email and Anti-Spam final call for papers X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This seems sufficiently on-topic for this list: The 2008 Conference on Email and Anti-Spam submission deadline is = approaching, and has been extended by a week, to 10 April. If you have = any work to report on in the area of Internet messaging abuse and its = prevention =97 not limited to email spam; see the topic list in the CfP, = below =97 please form it into a paper by next week, and submit it. Barry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THE FIFTH CONFERENCE ON EMAIL AND ANTI-SPAM (CEAS 2008) Thursday August 21 and Friday August 22, 2008 Microsoft Research Silicon Valley Mountain View, California FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS The Conference on Email and Anti-Spam (CEAS) invites the submission of papers for its fifth meeting. Papers are invited on all aspects of electronic communication including email, instant messaging, text messaging, and voice over internet protocol (VoIP). Topics of interest include novel applications of electronic messaging, abatement of abuses of electronic messaging, spam, spit (spam over internet telephony), spim (spam over instant messenger), phishing, identity theft via messaging, viruses, and spyware. Paper submissions can be either research papers, extended abstracts, industry reports, or law and policy papers. Submissions from practitioners and vendors are encouraged. Papers will be selected by peer review for presentation at CEAS 2008. Papers will be reviewed based on their contribution to the literature. SUGGESTED TOPICS: * Message filtering, blocking, authentication - Machine learning - Natural language processing - Adversarial learning - Challenge-response - Payment schemes - Disposable addresses - Messaging protocols - Digital signatures * Evaluation - Corpus and benchmark creation - Measures and methodologies - Comparative tests of methods or products * Analysis - Economics of spam, spit, spim, phishing, etc. - Abuse tactics and patterns - Legitimate use patterns - Historical data * Message organization and search - Advanced calendaring and scheduling - Automatic foldering - Automatic routing - Summarization - Search * Systems and network issues - Performance & scalability - Reliability & security - Archival & retrieval * User issues - User interfaces - Usability studies - Messaging in support of user activities * Social issues - Deducing social networks - Costs and benefits of messaging use and abuse - Other social impacts * Industry - Cooperation for stopping abuse - Messaging and abuse reporting standards - Interoperability * Legal issues - Spam, spit, spim and phishing, etc. - Identity theft - Privacy - Freedom of speech - Digital rights management KEY DATES: * Submission deadline: April 10, 2008 (10:59pm UTC) -- EXTENDED DATE * Notification of acceptance: June 6, 2008. * Final camera-ready version of papers: June 21, 2008 * Conference: August 21 and 22, 2008 REQUIREMENTS: Papers may be of one of two types: * Extended abstracts (up to 2 pages) may outline work in progress, exceptional papers published for different scientific communities, original research, or industry reports. * Full papers (up to 10 pages). Work may not have been previously published in, or under consideration for publication in any other conference or journal. Submissions must use the CEAS electronic system at: https://cmt.research.microsoft.com/CEAS2008/. The style for submissions and final papers is a two-column, 8.5 by 11 inch format. See http://www.ceas.cc/2008/format.htm for details. Papers will be reviewed by a committee of experts from academic and industrial research centers. Accepted papers will be made freely available on the web, and will be published on CD-ROM. Authors will retain copyright of their work. CONTACT: * The conference chair and co-chairs can be reached at information@ceas.cc CEAS PRESIDENT * Gordon Cormack University of Waterloo http://plg.uwaterloo.ca/~gvcormac/ GENERAL CONFERENCE CHAIR: * Aleksander Kolcz Microsoft Live Labs http://ir.iit.edu/~alek/ PROGRAM CO-CHAIRS: * Andrej Bratko Jozef Stefan Institute http://ai.ijs.si/andrej/ * Barry Leiba IBM Research http://www.research.ibm.com/people/l/leiba/ * Tobias Scheffer Max Planck Institute for Computer Science http://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/~scheffer/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 2 11:02:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED1728C3BA; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id A3F413A6D92; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-idtracker: yes To: IETF-Announce From: The IESG Message-Id: <20080402180240.A3F413A6D92@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] Last Call: draft-ietf-lemonade-convert (IMAP CONVERT extension) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has received a request from the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments WG (lemonade) to consider the following document: - 'IMAP CONVERT extension ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2008-04-16. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=13752&rfc_flag=0 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 2 14:01:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0373A6B82; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:01:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404DB3A6F68 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W+X+6d8NeK5g for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (sca-es-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.43.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7354E3A6F55 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m32L1Aue011624 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-09.sun.com by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JYP00901TUGRX00@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Newman@Sun.COM) for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-usca15-127-5.red.iplanet.com ([192.18.37.228]) by fe-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JYP00FHKUDB9O20@fe-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:00:53 -0700 From: Chris Newman In-reply-to: <47F11D7C.2030607@isode.com> To: Alexey Melnikov Message-id: <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) Content-disposition: inline References: <71E16C6BB38D6703CB5B24BA@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <47F11D7C.2030607@isode.com> Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] AD review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Please treat my remaining issues as if they were last call comments. --On March 31, 2008 18:21:00 +0100 Alexey Melnikov wrote: >>> Comments embedded like this SHOULD be preserved during >>> conversion, but MAY be removed entirely. >>> >> This "SHOULD" and "MAY" are contradictory. I suggest re-wording. >> > The intend was to say that comments can be preserved at the place where > they were found, they can be preserved, but moved, or they can be removed. > I thought this sentence was sufficiently clear, any suggestion how to > improve it? I recommend picking one or the other rather than giving contradictory advice: Either: Comments embedded like this SHOULD be preserved during conversion. or: Comments embedded like this MAY be removed entirely. I slightly prefer the former. Another approach would be: Comments embedded like this SHOULD be preserved during conversion, but clients MUST gracefully handle the situation where comments are removed entirely. >> Has there been a discussion of support for message/global-headers as a >> target media type here? > > Right. The CONVERT extension would support that, if we allow for target > MIME type above. I am frankly scared of putting any text about > message/global-headers into the document, considering that all EAI > documents are going to be Experimental at first. But once EAI updates all > documents to be on standard track, that would be an obvious thing to look > at. > > I was thinking about suggesting that the output for BODY[HEADER] should > be headers in UTF-8 (with no encoded words), i.e. effectively they would > be in message/global-headers format. But Peter convinced me that all > existing email clients would need to support encoded words, so it is > better to leave the converted headers with encoded UTF-8 words as well. As long as a future version could be compatibly extended to support converting headers to message/global-headers, I'm fine. But on reading the spec I wasn't sure but didn't have time to think about that in depth. >>> A response to a CONVERT command containing the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data >>> item MUST return a BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data item (in the CONVERTED >>> response) before any other data items for the same body part. >>> >>> >> This is an odd requirement and to me violates the principle of least >> astonishment. I believe it's also the first time we've required an IMAP >> server to re-order the response data items. >> > Correct. > >> I'd be a lot more comfortable with a requirement that in the event >> BODYPARTSTRUCTURE is listed prior to BINARY for the same part in the >> request that it MUST also be listed first in the response. >> >> That achieves the same goal >> (clients can be sure to get it first if they want it first) without >> mandating the server re-order response data items. >> >> > Clients can't have this guaranty with IMAP anyway, because pretty much > all existing servers reorder [at least some] of FETCH data items. > > This requirement is for clients benefit. I.e. the client can expect it to > be the first data item (the second, if UID is also returned), so it can > take advantage of this. > I wish we had something similar about UID data item in FETCH. Then please write it as a client requirement, please. State that if the client lists BODYPARTSTRUCTURE before BINARY, then the server MUST return BODYPARTSTRUCTURE prior to BINARY. That achieves the client requirement without constraining the server implementation. I'd like a server implementation that returns items in the order requested by the client to be compliant with the specification. I see no reason to declare such a server non-compliant in order to achieve the necessary client feature. >> Section 8.4: AVAILABLECONVERSIONS >> >> Unlike the "CONVERSIONS" command, this response item provides no way to >> determine support for features beyond the media type itself. >> > This was intentional. If the client wants to use conversion parameters, > it is either going to use a fixed set of parameters, or it can discover > which ones are available using the CONVERSIONS command. I didn't think it > was worth adding extra complexity and increase response size for > something which is unlikely to be used by the client. Ok, that's good enough for me. >> I want to verify that this is acceptable to the WG as it seems an unusual >> restriction to me. I also find myself somewhat dubious of the utility >> of this feature. >> > The use case is as follows: the CONVERSIONS command for the source MIME > type would return too many choices (for example for > application/octet-stream). But for a specific body part conversion there > is a smaller set of target MIME types, which can be presented to the user > in a dialog, which allows the user to pick one of the supported MIME type > viewers. Something like: > > This body part can be converted to one of the following MIME types, > please select your preferred viewer: > o image/jpeg (default viewer) > o application/pdf (Adobe Acrobat) > o text/plain (Notepad) Ok. Thanks for the clarification. - Chris _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 04:02:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A94A3A6C9A; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:02:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C45728C0DB for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T1m5mpyYv7qZ for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5E43A6A2F for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m33B2LFH029231 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:02:30 +0300 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:02:22 +0300 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:02:22 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:02:50 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] IMAP resume thread-index: AciVekHjtyB+VRNUTxaR6mVFzfcSLQ== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2008 11:02:22.0315 (UTC) FILETIME=[312583B0:01C8957A] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0540568910==" Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0540568910== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8957A.311E515B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8957A.311E515B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, here is a use case: You're up in Norway [1], and looking at the "Children of the Earth" = monument [2] at the visitor's centre in Nordkapp [3]. Your friends start = making fun, so you pull out your camera and you start rolling. At some = point you have a recording on your mobile phone's camera. You want to = send it to your friends, so you start writing an email. While you are = doing this, your friends jump in the car, ready to leave. So, you are = left with a draft, which you decide to keep. You jump in the car and = move on towards Hammerfest. While You are on the road, the phone will = start uploading the draft to the email server. Since You are going = through tunnels quite often, your upload will be interrupted every now = and then, and since IMAP cannot resume a broken upload, the phone has to = re-start uploading from the beginning. The use case is not specific to Norway, Nordkapp, or the tunnels - it is = merely an example. Connectivity issues can occur anywhere, any time. The problem: a lot of resources (processing power->battery power, air = interface bandwidth->the customer's/operators money and time) are wasted = as the connection to the server is lost and the client attempts = uploading a large content over and over again. I know that a client should stop after a while (like three retries or = something like that and try again later at some point in the future), = however if there was a way resume an "upload", it would not have to, = becasue the bandwidth would never be wasted. The situation today: SMTP does have a CHECKPOINT extension [RFC1845] that allows a broken = download to be finished. In IMAP, the best one can do currently is to slice the content to = pieces, upload the pieces, and have CATENATE [RFC4469] reassemble the = final piece. This is very resource-consuming on the client. I was wondering what is the group's opinion about these things: - is it worth solving (I think so: a megabyte saved is a megabyte = saved) - I am not proposing that this should be part of Profile-bis, but if it = is worth solving, could it be done in the Lemonade WG?=20 Any feedback on these issues is appreciated. Thank You. References: [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway [2] = http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2899504-Children_of_the_Earth-Nordkapp.jp= g [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordkapp [RFC1845] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1845 [RFC4469] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4469 Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8957A.311E515B Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [lemonade] IMAP resume

Hi all,
here is a use case:

You're up in Norway [1], and = looking at the "Children of the Earth" monument [2] at the = visitor's centre in Nordkapp [3]. Your friends start making fun, so you = pull out your camera and you start rolling. At some point you have a = recording on your mobile phone's camera. You want to send it to your = friends, so you start writing an email. While you are doing this, your = friends jump in the car, ready to leave. So, you are left with a draft, = which you decide to keep. You jump in the car and move on towards = Hammerfest. While You are on the road, the phone will start uploading = the draft to the email server. Since You are going through tunnels quite = often, your upload will be interrupted every now and then, and since = IMAP cannot resume a broken upload, the phone has to re-start uploading = from the beginning.

The use case is not specific = to Norway, Nordkapp, or the tunnels - it is merely an example. = Connectivity issues can occur anywhere, any time.

The problem: a lot of = resources (processing power->battery power, air interface = bandwidth->the customer's/operators money and time) are wasted as the = connection to the server is lost and the client attempts uploading a = large content over and over again.

I know that a client should = stop after a while (like three retries or something like that and try = again later at some point in the future), however if there was a way = resume an "upload", it would not have to, becasue the = bandwidth would never be wasted.

The situation today:
SMTP does have a CHECKPOINT = extension [RFC1845] that allows a broken download to be finished.
In IMAP, the best one can do = currently is to slice the content to pieces, upload the pieces, and have = CATENATE [RFC4469] reassemble the final piece. This is very = resource-consuming on the client.

I was wondering what is the = group's opinion about these things:
 - is it worth solving = (I think so: a megabyte saved is a megabyte saved)
 - I am not proposing = that this should be part of Profile-bis, but if it is worth solving, = could it be done in the Lemonade WG?

Any feedback on these issues = is appreciated. Thank You.

References:
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway
[2] http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2899504-Children_of_the_E= arth-Nordkapp.jpg
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordkapp
[RFC1845] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1845
[RFC4469] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4469

Best regards: Zolt=E1n = =D6rd=F6gh
E-mail: zoltan = dot ordogh at nokia dot com
Phone: = +358 50 386 = 0566


------_=_NextPart_001_01C8957A.311E515B-- --===============0540568910== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --===============0540568910==-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 04:36:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF19728C65E; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:36:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6312A28C64E for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:36:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zE93dT-f0Rp2 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BBE28C24B for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 04:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E004AC23; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:36:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1207222581-44344-1202; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:36:21 +0200 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:35:36 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: > Hi all, > here is a use case: > > You're up in Norway [1], and looking at the "Children of the Earth" > monument [2] at the visitor's centre in Nordkapp [3]. Your friends > start making fun, so you pull out your camera and you start rolling. > At some point you have a recording on your mobile phone's camera. You > want to send it to your friends, so you start writing an email. While > you are doing this, your friends jump in the car, ready to leave. So, > you are left with a draft, which you decide to keep. You jump in the > car and move on towards Hammerfest. Probably passing a house where I lived on the way ;) > While You are on the road, the phone will start uploading the draft to > the email server. Since You are going through tunnels quite often, > your upload will be interrupted every now and then, and since IMAP > cannot resume a broken upload, the phone has to re-start uploading > from the beginning. Yes. TCP tells IMAP the connection was broken, and you really want the connection to merely be paused. > The use case is not specific to Norway, Nordkapp, or the tunnels - it > is merely an example. Connectivity issues can occur anywhere, any > time. It's also not specific to IMAP, it applies to any protocol that transfers large data items via TCP. You'd have the same issue if you use your photo management software to upload pictures while driving. My gut feeling is that the right place to solve this is TCP. The TCP stack on your mobile device would send TCP options to say "ignore ten-minute outages" when it opens the TCP conection, and perhaps "I just recovered from an outage, please can we resume session 1234324123421?". > I was wondering what is the group's opinion about these things: > - is it worth solving (I think so: a megabyte saved is a megabyte saved) > - I am not proposing that this should be part of Profile-bis, but if > it is worth solving, could it be done in the Lemonade WG? > > Any feedback on these issues is appreciated. Thank You. Hm. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 05:03:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C6128C6BE; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:03:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177F828C66B for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NJbETxAeA93c for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043D828C666 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m33C52w2022124; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:05:32 -0500 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:03:17 +0300 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:03:17 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:03:44 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] IMAP resume thread-index: AciVfvjZkGtSlmCNSx6ps/DdH0DtWgAAj7yQ References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2008 12:03:17.0487 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3CC7FF0:01C89582] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Arnt, thank You for Your response. It raises a lot of questions in me. >My gut feeling is that the right place to solve this is TCP. >The TCP stack on your mobile device would send TCP options to >say "ignore ten-minute outages" when it opens the TCP >conection, and perhaps "I just recovered from an outage, >please can we resume session 1234324123421?". How do we figure out - which disconnection is this (in case they are happening frequently)? - how many bytes have been successfully received/stored on the server? - at which position should the client continue the transmission? - what happens if the IP address changes in the meantime (dynamic IP)? - what happens if the port number changes in the meantime (NAT)? I have to agree that if TCP provided a solution for all this, IMAP would not have to deal with this problem. I think that the SMTP extension was created for a reason (TCP could not or would not solve this problem?). _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 05:36:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FBF3A6B48; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF57628C159 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:36:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWdEQEOC6Pko for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E64A3A691A for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569D14AC23; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:36:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1207226167-44344-1227; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:36:07 +0200 Message-Id: <2YWgEErdUeBMn6h6t/2XQA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:35:22 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: > Hi Arnt, > thank You for Your response. > It raises a lot of questions in me. > >> My gut feeling is that the right place to solve this is TCP. The TCP >> stack on your mobile device would send TCP options to say "ignore >> ten-minute outages" when it opens the TCP conection, and perhaps "I >> just recovered from an outage, please can we resume session >> 1234324123421?". > > How do we figure out > - which disconnection is this (in case they are happening frequently)? A connection has to be labelled, say using a 128-bit random cookie. If host A says to host B, "I want to resume the connection with cookie 343241355231423414324134432432412", B can look for a connection with that cookie and resume it. (This is a little simplistic and vulnerable to a MITM attack, but I think a more elaborate version of the same scheme is safe.) > - how many bytes have been successfully received/stored on the server? > - at which position should the client continue the transmission? TCP has logic to do that already, it's used to counter packet loss. > - what happens if the IP address changes in the meantime (dynamic IP)? > - what happens if the port number changes in the meantime (NAT)? It would be possible to tie the new connection to the old using the cookie, but I haven't thought about what would happen to software. Software may assume that the IP address doesn't change and react badly if it does. > I have to agree that if TCP provided a solution for all this, IMAP > would not have to deal with this problem. I think that the SMTP > extension was created for a reason (TCP could not or would not solve > this problem?). I don't know why it was created. (I wasn't interested in CHECKPOINT when the RFC was written and didn't follow the discussion.) Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 06:34:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599A628C675; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 06:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A9328C686 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 06:34:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.848, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wXtYGYvBXC5F for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 06:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-9.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-9.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3024628C678 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 06:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:56088) by ppsw-9.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.159]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1JhPZL-0000kX-V0 (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:33:31 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1JhPZL-0004KW-J7 (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:33:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:33:31 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LSU 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote: > > SMTP does have a CHECKPOINT extension [RFC1845] that allows a broken > download to be finished. See also http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~fanf2/hermes/doc/qsmtp/draft-fanf-smtp-rfc1845bis.html > In IMAP, the best one can do currently is to slice the content to > pieces, upload the pieces, and have CATENATE [RFC4469] reassemble the > final piece. This is very resource-consuming on the client. Why is it significantly worse than uploading in one unreliable chunk? Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ SOUTH UTSIRE: NORTHERLY BACKING WESTERLY 4 OR 5, INCREASING 6 FOR A TIME. MODERATE OR ROUGH. RAIN. MODERATE OR GOOD. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 07:09:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B210B28C65D; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:09:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A4728C671 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-T8oT2KzF7H for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1872828C65D for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m33E9kQd030638; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:09:52 +0300 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:09:17 +0300 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:09:17 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:09:41 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] IMAP resume thread-index: AciVj2luCNYiHXUyQASqpC5KX4cx5AAAx54g References: From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2008 14:09:17.0543 (UTC) FILETIME=[4DF17F70:01C89594] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Tony, thanks for the comments. Good point, but. >> In IMAP, the best one can do currently is to slice the content to >> pieces, upload the pieces, and have CATENATE [RFC4469] >reassemble the >> final piece. This is very resource-consuming on the client. > >Why is it significantly worse than uploading in one unreliable chunk? > I think that it does not solve the problem - only create several smaller problems - ; it is an attempt to reduce the amount of bandwidth wasted: - smaller pieces->less bandwidth wasted when the connection is lost - too small pieces->way too much overhead. Consider a movie that is 10 megabytes. We split it to 10 pieces, 1 megabytes each. We start uploading the first. After transmitting 800k, the connection is lost. We try again. Next time the connection is lost after we uploaded 10k. We try again, and the connection is lost when we have uploaded 300k. So, we uploaded already over 1 megabytes of data, but we are still not done with the first piece. After 3 tries, we wait for 10 minutes - hoping that the network conditions get better - and we try it again. Now we could upload the first part. We a little over 2 megabytes to get the 1 megabyte on the server. If we cut to smaller pieces, say 10k. We can significantly reduce the amount of bandwidth wasted on the connection loss, but it will introduce significant overhead (protocol chatter+headers). _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 07:23:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374973A6BC9; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:23:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582D328C695 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:23:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.008 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.008 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.591, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xHCRONsO+LK for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1643A6C5B for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:23:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:56618) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1JhQLJ-0006Md-HJ (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:23:05 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1JhQLJ-0003pm-BR (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:23:05 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:23:05 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LSU 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com wrote: > > >Why is it significantly worse than uploading in one unreliable chunk? > > If we cut to smaller pieces, say 10k. We can significantly reduce the > amount of bandwidth wasted on the connection loss, but it will introduce > significant overhead (protocol chatter+headers). For 10KB chunks you are talking about maybe 2% overhead. It's possible to tune dynamically, e.g. you could have an optimistic default (say, 1MB) that gets reduced if it turns out to be greater than the typical connection lifetime. I haven't been convinced that you need more protocol complexity to deal with this problem. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ ROCKALL MALIN HEBRIDES: SOUTHWEST VEERING NORTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH, OCCASIONALLY VERY ROUGH LATER. OCCASIONAL RAIN. MODERATE OR GOOD, OCCASIONALLY POOR. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 07:39:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E3828C603; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5F528C226 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WHuNuabKFj8G for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EE128C673 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD2A4AC1B; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:39:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1207233549-44344-1333; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:39:09 +0200 Message-Id: <+mGDnKSI+AN5C1IUR1gjPw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:38:25 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Tony Finch , Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org There's also the option of improving the network... It's not strictly necessary to issue a new address every time a mobile enters coverage. The DHCP server can try to give it the same as last time. It's also not strictly necessary to tear down TCP connections the moment a mobile loses coverage. The routers can try with ICMP source queches for a minute or two. Have any mobile operators tried such tweaks? Would the problem still be unmanageably large after this kind of optimisation? Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 07:51:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE62B28C5B4; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D5A3A67AC for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.367, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8nUqug3PiEeR for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EB33A6B42 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:52682) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1JhQmX-0002Mx-Im (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:51:13 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1JhQmX-0008H4-Px (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:51:13 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 15:51:13 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: <+mGDnKSI+AN5C1IUR1gjPw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Message-ID: References: <+mGDnKSI+AN5C1IUR1gjPw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LSU 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > > It's not strictly necessary to issue a new address every time a mobile enters > coverage. The DHCP server can try to give it the same as last time. Though that's no good for users that migrate between GPRS and WiFi etc. I agree that it's a shame that nowadays TCP tends not to survive network outages; however the ends of TCP are not the ends of the application so fully correct failure recovery needs some application-level mechanism. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ BISCAY: EASTERLY 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 IN SOUTHWEST. MODERATE. MAINLY FAIR. MODERATE OR GOOD, OCCASIONALLY POOR IN EAST. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 08:45:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C74128C6F0; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE163A6C89 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cf7fgEppdIdI for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu (mxout5.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08A43A6963 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m33Fj8ZG021133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:08 -0700 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m33Fj6M5004253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:45:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (OSX 1019 2008-04-02) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.4.3.83040 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_900_999 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Yes. TCP tells IMAP the connection was broken, and you really want the > connection to merely be paused. This is a bug in the sockets-based version of TCP used in UNIX and Windows. This was not a bug in the TCP implemented on the superior operating systems of the past, such as TOPS-20 and Multics. I had long arguments with the UNIX developers back in the 1980s on this very issue. They were far more concerned with aggressively killing "abandoned" connections than about preserving connections for mobile devices. And we are still stuck with their deliberate design bugs. Sadly, only oldtimers who cling to the operating systems of the past know the experience of having a network connection resume after a multi-hour (even multi-day) outage. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 09:12:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC003A6C88; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:12:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACDD3A69CD for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eup+oy+2n3+1 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16E028C714 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:12:16 +0100 Message-ID: <47F501BE.2080401@isode.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:11:42 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Chris Newman References: <71E16C6BB38D6703CB5B24BA@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <47F11D7C.2030607@isode.com> <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> In-Reply-To: <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] AD review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Chris Newman wrote: >>> Has there been a discussion of support for message/global-headers as a >>> target media type here? >> >> Right. The CONVERT extension would support that, if we allow for target >> MIME type above. I am frankly scared of putting any text about >> message/global-headers into the document, considering that all EAI >> documents are going to be Experimental at first. But once EAI updates >> all >> documents to be on standard track, that would be an obvious thing to >> look >> at. >> >> I was thinking about suggesting that the output for BODY[HEADER] should >> be headers in UTF-8 (with no encoded words), i.e. effectively they would >> be in message/global-headers format. But Peter convinced me that all >> existing email clients would need to support encoded words, so it is >> better to leave the converted headers with encoded UTF-8 words as well. > > As long as a future version could be compatibly extended to support > converting headers to message/global-headers, I'm fine. But on > reading the spec I wasn't sure but didn't have time to think about > that in depth. Right. Actually, if one specifies a regular BINARY conversion from anything to message/global-headers, then things will just work. No changes to the draft needed. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 09:19:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6B028C1D9; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3E128C172 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.169, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dwdFYcXQ3WY5 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C4E3A6F6E for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-SpamDetails: Not scanned X-Cam-AntiVirus: No virus found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:38588) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1JhS9W-0008In-HP (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:19:02 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1JhS9W-00056n-CH (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:19:02 +0100 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 17:19:02 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LSU 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > > Yes. TCP tells IMAP the connection was broken, and you really want the > > connection to merely be paused. > > This is a bug in the sockets-based version of TCP used in UNIX and > Windows. Actually, on UNIX it depends whether the application asks for "keepalive" (i.e. die faster) probes to be sent. There may be a global setting that turns the socket option on by default. There's also a question of how changes in interface state affect higher-level TCBs: e.g. link down, IP address removal, interface removal. On Unix link-down generally doesn't reset connections though on Windows it does. The behaviour is often affected by middleboxes and the peer's TCP. NATs that randomly lose their connection state tend to make keepalive perferable to recoverable idle connections. > Sadly, only oldtimers who cling to the operating systems of the past know > the experience of having a network connection resume after a multi-hour > (even multi-day) outage. This Unix bigot has experienced idle connection resumption too. It's particularly nice when it works after your laptop has been to sleep for a while. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ BISCAY: EASTERLY 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 IN SOUTHWEST. MODERATE. MAINLY FAIR. MODERATE OR GOOD, OCCASIONALLY POOR IN EAST. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 11:03:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F51B28C235; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:03:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09323A69F5 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0ElhnxY3UWs for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0EA23A6874 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F004AC1B; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:03:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1207245798-44344-1486; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:03:18 +0200 Message-Id: <2EEF7r317Wg6X0xqMZIgTw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:02:34 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Mark Crispin , Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mark Crispin writes: > On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> Yes. TCP tells IMAP the connection was broken, and you really want >> the connection to merely be paused. > > This is a bug in the sockets-based version of TCP used in UNIX and Windows. That's only one of the problems. Routers sending ICMP host unreachable as soon as the endpoint loses connectivity away is another, instead of dropping the packet and giving the endpoint a little time to come back. I can't say which problem is more common, but I've seen both problems. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 11:32:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B20928C6B7; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692F828C681 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0C6Toy3I8JYi for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu (mxout3.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.166]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9690628C676 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m33IWC6q015886 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:12 -0700 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m33IWAHI006032 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:32:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: <2EEF7r317Wg6X0xqMZIgTw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Message-ID: References: <2EEF7r317Wg6X0xqMZIgTw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (OSX 1019 2008-04-02) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.4.3.112129 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_1900_1999 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >>> Yes. TCP tells IMAP the connection was broken, and you really want the >>> connection to merely be paused. >> This is a bug in the sockets-based version of TCP used in UNIX and Windows. > That's only one of the problems. Routers sending ICMP host unreachable as > soon as the endpoint loses connectivity away is another, instead of dropping > the packet and giving the endpoint a little time to come back. That is also a design bug in sockets. There is no reason why a TCP stack must declare the session to be irrecoverable when an ICMP unreachable arrives. Indeed, I claim that it MUST NOT do so. As you note, ICMP unreachable just means that something flapped at a router. It says nothing whatsoever about the status of the endpoints; nor does it say anything about reachability at any point of time other than that specific instant. TOPS-20 handled it right. ICMP unreachable caused a TCP open to fail, but otherwise did not affect an already-open session. If the application cared, it could find out that an ICMP unreachable happened and/or time out the session; but if the application wants to wait, the TOPS-20 TCP stack will happily wait until connectivity was restored. I had something to do that aspect of TOPS-20... ;-) I spent a long time beating up on UNIX developers about this very issue, getting increasing infuriated as I lost IMAP sessions multiple times/day due to router flaps. On at least one system, I had to do a binary patch to fix that. Presently, I convinced most UNIX developers that it was a bad idea to kill open sockets due to ICMP unreachable. Sadly, every so often, this ancient issue pops up again when some cretin "fixes" it to do so... :-( -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 11:54:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E4B28C21E; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E24F28C21E for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k5y6MUsZJtkF for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu (mxout2.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC9728C173 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.7] (may be forged)) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m33Islxd022941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:47 -0700 X-Auth-Received: from pangtzu.panda.com (pangtzu.panda.com [206.124.149.117]) (authenticated authid=mrc) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id m33IskpS023704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:54:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Tony Finch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (OSX 1019 2008-04-02) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.4.1.325704, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.0.325393, Antispam-Data: 2008.4.3.114558 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_1100_1199 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Tony Finch wrote: > Actually, on UNIX it depends whether the application asks for "keepalive" > (i.e. die faster) probes to be sent. There may be a global setting that > turns the socket option on by default. There's also a question of how > changes in interface state affect higher-level TCBs: e.g. link down, IP > address removal, interface removal. On Unix link-down generally doesn't > reset connections though on Windows it does. The behaviour is often > affected by middleboxes and the peer's TCP. NATs that randomly lose their > connection state tend to make keepalive perferable to recoverable idle > connections. I agree with much of what you say, including the bad behavior of Windows and NAT boxes. However, being the victim of UNIX systems which whack TCBs due to ICMP unreachable and/or changes in interface state, I think that you are entirely too optimistic about good behavior on UNIX systems. :-( -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 3 12:31:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADBC28C140; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:31:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220A93A6BCE for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EUt2ACUK7FHS for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1A73A683E for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C454AC1B; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:31:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1207251110-44344-1545; Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:31:50 +0200 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:31:06 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <2EEF7r317Wg6X0xqMZIgTw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: Mark Crispin , Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mark Crispin writes: > That is also a design bug in sockets. There is no reason why a TCP > stack must declare the session to be irrecoverable when an ICMP > unreachable arrives. Indeed, I claim that it MUST NOT do so. > > As you note, ICMP unreachable just means that something flapped at a > router. It says nothing whatsoever about the status of the > endpoints; nor does it say anything about reachability at any point > of time other than that specific instant. I don't really disagree with this, but I think you're overstating it a little. Anyway. A bit of experimentation by a mobile network operator would be very, very good, IMNSHO. Perhaps tweaking DHCP lease extension timeouts, NAT timeouts, ICMP packet generation etc. reduces the problem to an acceptable level, perhaps not. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 7 05:06:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB7D3A6AB3; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1293A6A2F for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bp4VShm6SLON for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12CC3A6CC0 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id m37C8hpk021512; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 07:09:02 -0500 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:05:57 +0300 Received: from esebe199.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.143]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:05:57 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:06:26 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] IMAP resume thread-index: AciVuQzKZgPtTyacRISj2DU24LoMYwC7eeyA References: <2EEF7r317Wg6X0xqMZIgTw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2008 12:05:57.0089 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC94D510:01C898A7] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mark, this sounds great. But what should we do in the next 10 years until the routers and modern OSe= s implement TCP properly? Tony said the overhead introduced by splitting a 10 megs attachment to 1024= (10k each) pieces is only 2% (200k). That does not sound too bad. Best regards: Zolt=E1n =D6rd=F6gh E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com Phone: +358 50 386 0566 = >-----Original Message----- >From: mrc@pangtzu.panda.com [mailto:mrc@pangtzu.panda.com] On = >Behalf Of ext Mark Crispin >Sent: 03 April, 2008 21:32 >To: Arnt Gulbrandsen >Cc: lemonade@ietf.org; Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere) >Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume > >On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >>>> Yes. TCP tells IMAP the connection was broken, and you really want = >>>> the connection to merely be paused. >>> This is a bug in the sockets-based version of TCP used in = >UNIX and Windows. >> That's only one of the problems. Routers sending ICMP host = >unreachable = >> as soon as the endpoint loses connectivity away is another, = >instead of = >> dropping the packet and giving the endpoint a little time to = >come back. > >That is also a design bug in sockets. There is no reason why = >a TCP stack must declare the session to be irrecoverable when = >an ICMP unreachable arrives. Indeed, I claim that it MUST NOT do so. > >As you note, ICMP unreachable just means that something = >flapped at a router. It says nothing whatsoever about the = >status of the endpoints; nor does it say anything about = >reachability at any point of time other than that specific instant. > >TOPS-20 handled it right. ICMP unreachable caused a TCP open = >to fail, but otherwise did not affect an already-open session. = > If the application cared, it could find out that an ICMP = >unreachable happened and/or time out the session; but if the = >application wants to wait, the TOPS-20 TCP stack will happily = >wait until connectivity was restored. > >I had something to do that aspect of TOPS-20... ;-) > >I spent a long time beating up on UNIX developers about this = >very issue, getting increasing infuriated as I lost IMAP = >sessions multiple times/day due to router flaps. On at least = >one system, I had to do a binary patch to fix that. = >Presently, I convinced most UNIX developers that it was a bad = >idea to kill open sockets due to ICMP unreachable. Sadly, = >every so often, this ancient issue pops up again when some = >cretin "fixes" it to do so... :-( > >-- Mark -- > >http://panda.com/mrc >Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. >Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 7 05:38:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF2F3A6BB0; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:38:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC7928C276 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0f61g6uaBF56 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 768D23A6A5C for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973CF4AC91; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:38:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1207571885-35544-299; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:38:05 +0200 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:37:21 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <2EEF7r317Wg6X0xqMZIgTw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: mrc@Washington.EDU, Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: > But what should we do in the next 10 years until the routers and > modern OSes implement TCP properly? First an operator needs to experiment with using source quench, long and renewable DHCP leases, and long NAT timeouts. WLAN access points implement collision avoidance to help TCP, because the cost of collisions on WLANs doesn't match the existing TCP model. Routers and DHCP servers managing other peculiar networks can help TCP work well on their networks, too. > Tony said the overhead introduced by splitting a 10 megs attachment to > 1024 (10k each) pieces is only 2% (200k). That does not sound too > bad. 2% is not much, but you have to do the same for each application. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 7 07:43:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359DD3A6B9D; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 07:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1863A6B9D for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 07:43:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQpBr5RMYe+c for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:211:9ff:fe2c:e28e]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703803A6A71 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from invsysm1 (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:42:51 +0100 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <7756.1207579366.712210@invsysm1> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:42:46 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu Apr 3 12:35:36 2008, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > My gut feeling is that the right place to solve this is TCP. The TCP > stack on your mobile device would send TCP options to say "ignore > ten-minute outages" when it opens the TCP conection, and perhaps "I > just recovered from an outage, please can we resume session > 1234324123421?". Or TLS: http://www.usenix.org/event/usenix06/tech/full_papers/koponen/koponen_html/index.html Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 7 10:49:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871D83A6E91; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BA53A6E9D for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.930, BAYES_40=-0.185] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 75VhTthrAtxq for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A483A69DE for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m37HnPbe030613 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:25 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m37HnL7v008983 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:24 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.149 ([10.43.242.149]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:49:22 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 12:32:56 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Posting CFP's, Conferences, etc. Thread-Index: AciYzQiY2nJqZnAPwkuxPTPFTruGmA== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] Posting CFP's, Conferences, etc. X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org We have no problem per se posting calls for lemonade-related activities. However, we do ask you let Glenn or I know before you post for approval. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 7 10:49:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76A328C135; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2035A3A69DE for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.167 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.167 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.432, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gTvTx8GfM65z for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8303A6E9B for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m37HnRVn030685 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:27 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m37HnL7x008983 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:49:25 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.149 ([10.43.242.149]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:49:23 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 12:34:43 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] IMAP resume Thread-Index: AciYzUhfO9c2tPWBF0myHmfNQvbM3g== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: Re: [lemonade] IMAP resume X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Only one question on this thread: can we get back to our WLGC's and not spend time here reinventing TCP? Thanks. Fixing IMAP composition, if it is worth doing, is not going to happen under our current charter. On 4/7/08 8:37 AM, "Arnt Gulbrandsen" wrote: > Zoltan.Ordogh@nokia.com writes: >> But what should we do in the next 10 years until the routers and >> modern OSes implement TCP properly? > > First an operator needs to experiment with using source quench, long and > renewable DHCP leases, and long NAT timeouts. > > WLAN access points implement collision avoidance to help TCP, because > the cost of collisions on WLANs doesn't match the existing TCP model. > Routers and DHCP servers managing other peculiar networks can help TCP > work well on their networks, too. > >> Tony said the overhead introduced by splitting a 10 megs attachment to >> 1024 (10k each) pieces is only 2% (200k). That does not sound too >> bad. > > 2% is not much, but you have to do the same for each application. > > Arnt > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 7 13:02:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9D83A6E94; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 13:02:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 5286D3A6EC9; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 13:02:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Amy Vezza via RT" Message-ID: Precedence: bulk X-RT-Loop-Prevention: rt.amsl.com RT-Ticket: rt.amsl.com #5848 Managed-by: RT 3.6.5 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) RT-Originator: avezza@amsl.com To: lemonade@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 13:02:29 -0700 Subject: [lemonade] [rt.amsl.com #5848] Resolved: New Liaison Statement, "Update on LEMONADE activity - March 2008" X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Reply-To: statements@ietf.org List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org According to our records, your request has been resolved. If you have any further questions or concerns, please respond to this message. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 8 04:17:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBF93A6873; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 04:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C243A6CB8 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 04:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sok-B5YrVOtX for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 04:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10173A6873 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 04:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 12:17:25 +0100 Message-ID: <47FB32FE.3010206@isode.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:55:26 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Peter Coates References: <003c01c88ea7$713b6660$53b23320$%coates@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <003c01c88ea7$713b6660$53b23320$%coates@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, 'Arnt Gulbrandsen' Subject: Re: [lemonade] a notify question X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Peter, Peter Coates wrote: > Suppose a client asked to be notified on events for some mailbox by = > name, and asked for status, so > > 1 notify status set (mailboxes foo =85 > > And suppose that mailbox foo does not exist. What is the correct = > behaviour of the server. > > Is it > > (1) reject the whole command with a tagged NO > This is only allowed if "foo" is the only mailbox specified in the = command. If other mailboxes which exist are specified, then "foo" must = be silently ignored, as per the following text in section 3.1: - If the name does not refer to an existing mailbox, the server MUST ignore it. > (2) reject the mailbox with some variant of a *NO > But return the tagged OK and forget that the mailbox "foo" was ever = specified? If the answer to this question is yes, then I don't think this should be = allowed. > (3) set up the notification for when/if the mailbox ever comes into being > This is certainly allowed. I also think that sending LIST \NonExistent for such mailboxes is = reasonable as well. > If the answer is (3) is it OK simply to forget about sending a status = > response back to the client, or what? > I think the answer to your last question is "yes". _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 8 08:40:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2652B3A6946; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C1B3A6860; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.191, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l7XwqzzWcauk; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EE23A6B93; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:40:56 +0100 Message-ID: <47FB91F7.5050708@isode.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:40:39 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: David Harrington References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, Lemonade WG , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org David Harrington wrote: >Hi, > > Hi David, Thank you for your review. I will just quickly reply to things I can immediate comment on and would allow my co-editor to comment on remaining comments. >I have reviewed draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt as part of the >Operations and Management directorate effort. These comments were >primarily written for the benefit of the O&M area directors. Document >editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. > > "CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request > adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify > the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge > of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its > settings." > >I have no experience with IMAP commands. I will review this as best I >can, and I request that another ops-dir reviewer with IMAP experience >also review this document. > >1. Is the specification complete? Can multiple interoperable > implementations be built based on the specification? > >The basics appear to be complete and interoperable. It may be a common >IMAP convention to allow optional parameters to commands. > Yes. >Response formats seem to be quite variable. It makes me a little concerned >about interoperability to have optional elements. > Can you be a bit more specific? >2. Is the proposed specification deployable? If not, how could it be > improved? > >I have no experience deploying MIME extensions, so cannot make a >judgement on this. Deployment considerations are not discussed much in >the document. > I believe Peter Coates has implemented the spec, so it should be deployable. There are also some implementation considerations in the document. >3. Does the proposed approach have any scaling issues that could >affect usability for large scale operation? > >Each request asks the server to perform a conversion, which could be >resource intensive. Could lots of requests from one client create a >denial of service attack? > >4. Are there any backward compatibility issues? > >The SIZE command has some backwards compatibility issues, described in >section 8. > There is no backward compatibility issues with the SIZE. The text in section 8.3 is describing some background on why BINARY.SIZE must return exact sizes. >5. Do you anticipate any manageability issues with the specification? > >Manageability is not discussed in this document. I do not know if >there would be anything new required as a result of this extension, >but it might be useful for an operator to be able to tell how often >this extension is being used and by whom and the number of errors, to >help detect abuse and performace-impacting situations. > This make sense. Can you recommend some specific text to be added? >6. Does the specification introduce new potential security risks or > avenues for fraud? > >The security considerations section covers these fairly well. > > >Detailed review: > >section 6 > >" Specifying any non leaf section part requires that the server know > how to convert a multipart message, for instance into a PDF >document." is ambiguous. Can the client request force a REQUIREMENT on >the server (so 'requires' should be 'REQUIRES', or does this mean that >making such a request to a server that doesn't know how to do the >conversion will fail? (and presumably return an error code). > The latter. >In either case, thi stext should be modified to be clear and unambiguous. esp >with regard to the RFC2119 keyword. > Ok, I will try to reword this. >s/convertions/conversions/ >should the examples of header conversions be modified to use >example.com rather than siroe.com? > Ok. >"Such request REQUIREs that the server decode any encoded words " >seems to conflict with >"These parameters are non-trivial, and converting them without >reformatting > the header is not always going to be possible." >So shouldn't this be a SHOULD? And I would expect some langugae that >says something about what an implementer is required to support. The >specification should define the requirement at implementation-time, >not the act of a client making a request at runtime. > > I will let Peter answer this. >"The server ought to endeavour to" - should we add "ought to >endeavour" to RFC2119 as keywords? ;-) seriously, can we change this >to RFC2119 terms? >I have concerns abotu interoperability in the preservation of headers; >there seems to be lots of MAY options in the preservation >recommendations. > >There are a number of uses of "may" and "requires" and other keywords; >Can those be capitalized (or changed), so it is clear these are all >meant to convey the RFC2119 semantics. Some of the "may" usage would >be better stated as "might". > > Ok, Peter and I will review. >"It is important the encoded words be left as encoded words as to do >otherwise may alter the semantics of structured headers." Can this be >phrased in RFC2119 terms? > It should. >There are a number of non-RFC2119 >expressions of requirements or recomendations in this document, and >this document should be gone through thoroughly to make sure they are >converted to appropriate RFC2119 keywords. Watch for "encourage", >"discourage", > >section 7 > >s/Note, that according/According/ > >I am not sure I understand why the example is needed here. Is this an >example of additional optional parameters? > Yes. >Does this one sentence rule really require an example? > No, but I thought it would be nice to have an example with anything other than charset. >The example apparently is not about the >required "charset" parameter. > >Most of the text in section 7 is about mandatory-to-implement charset >support, so should that go into section 7.1? > > Good point. I will try to move some text there. >section 8.3 discusses performance problems and suggests that clients >should be considerate of performace implications of the SIZE command, >and the text "discourages" a large number of client requests. I think >this should be couched in RFC2119 language, and I think it should be >stated that a server MAY enforce limits. > >section 8.5 does have some text about servers limiting requests and >caches, but this is under implementation considerations, which feels >non-normative. I think acceptable server behavior should be documented >in RFC2119 language, to enhance interoperability. > >section 9 seems to allow the server to respond a variety of ways, >which I expect could impact interoperability. It might be better to >define the expected behavior more deterministically. > I need to think more about these suggestions. >I am not a big fan of "standards" that say "anybody can send whatever >they want, but that's OK, because we'll write the standard so that no >matter what you do, you can claim compliance to the standard." > >" The word ERROR is always followed by an informal human readable > descriptive text, which is followed by the convert-error-code. The > convert-error-code, MUST be one of the following:" Will we >standardize the human-readable text as well as the codes? > > No, there is no intention to standardize human-readable text. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 8 20:52:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB893A6EEF; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:52:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE8D3A68BB for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:52:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.370, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x8etmmXOnaO5 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64843A69A1 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m393rBOn029109 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:53:11 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m393rA22027958 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2008 20:53:10 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.63 ([10.43.242.63]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 03:53:10 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:53:08 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] WGLC IMAP SIEVE Thread-Index: AciFQOXbDA2520hnQ/STEc3NYoLyPwUtFMBl In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC IMAP SIEVE X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Given we had ample discussion on the list of prior versions, we take the silent passing of this document as consensus. Scream now if you strongly disagree. On 3/13/08 3:31 PM, "Eric Burger" wrote: > Work Group Last Call begins immediately for IMAP SIEVE. See > xt> > > WGLC closes 28 March 2008. > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain > information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated > entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or > legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or > entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have > received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and > then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 9 08:33:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E42628C3FE; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 4708C28C266; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) X-idtracker: yes To: IETF-Announce From: The IESG Message-Id: <20080409153308.4708C28C266@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] Last Call: draft-ietf-lemonade-msgevent (Internet Message Store Events) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has received a request from the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments WG (lemonade) to consider the following document: - 'Internet Message Store Events ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2008-04-23. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-msgevent-05.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=14752&rfc_flag=0 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 9 11:01:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04CB3A69E6; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:01:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A883A687B; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.112, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GwjpReJV0Zxg; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369383A67E6; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.157] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:01:40 +0100 Message-ID: <47FD0469.40901@isode.com> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:01:13 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: David Harrington References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> <47FB91F7.5050708@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47FB91F7.5050708@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, Lemonade WG , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey Melnikov wrote: > David Harrington wrote: > >> Detailed review: >> >> section 6 >> >> " Specifying any non leaf section part requires that the server know >> how to convert a multipart message, for instance into a PDF >> document." is ambiguous. Can the client request force a REQUIREMENT on >> the server (so 'requires' should be 'REQUIRES', or does this mean that >> making such a request to a server that doesn't know how to do the >> conversion will fail? (and presumably return an error code). > > The latter. > >> In either case, thi stext should be modified to be clear and >> unambiguous. esp >> with regard to the RFC2119 keyword. > > Ok, I will try to reword this. The new text reads: It is legal for a client to request conversion of a non leaf body part, for example to request conversion of a multipart/* into a PDF document. However servers implementing this extension are not required to support such conversions. Servers that support such conversions MUST return at one or more CONVERSION responses, in response to a 'CONVERSIONS "multipart/*" "*"' command. See Section 5.1 for more details. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 9 11:06:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46E63A6936; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:06:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFD83A6936; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QO9cVhB7uY45; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C765F3A68A8; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.157] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:06:32 +0100 Message-ID: <47FD058E.5090208@isode.com> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:06:06 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: David Harrington References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> <47FB91F7.5050708@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <47FB91F7.5050708@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, Lemonade WG , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi David, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > David Harrington wrote: [...] >> 2. Is the proposed specification deployable? If not, how could it be >> improved? >> >> I have no experience deploying MIME extensions, so cannot make a >> judgement on this. Deployment considerations are not discussed much in >> the document. > > I believe Peter Coates has implemented the spec, so it should be > deployable. > > There are also some implementation considerations in the document. ...which have some implications on deployments. [...] >> section 8.3 discusses performance problems and suggests that clients >> should be considerate of performace implications of the SIZE command, >> and the text "discourages" a large number of client requests. I think >> this should be couched in RFC2119 language, and I think it should be >> stated that a server MAY enforce limits. > Ok, will do. >> section 8.5 does have some text about servers limiting requests and >> caches, but this is under implementation considerations, which feels >> non-normative. I think acceptable server behavior should be documented >> in RFC2119 language, to enhance interoperability. > Ok. >> section 9 seems to allow the server to respond a variety of ways, >> which I expect could impact interoperability. It might be better to >> define the expected behavior more deterministically. > After rereading section 9 I think it is sufficiently deterministic about when different responses should be used. I think the current list of various response codes is sufficiently detailed so that a compliant server can signal a client why a particular response failed. Document response codes would allow clients to deal with different error conditions differently, in some cases clients can try other operations that would succeed. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 9 12:47:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEE528C10C; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9ECC3A6ADE; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:47:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.104, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AfyKMRFmNFtj; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7B83A67FF; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.157] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:48:15 +0100 Message-ID: <47FD1D5E.3070301@isode.com> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:47:42 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: David Harrington References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, Lemonade WG , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi David, David Harrington wrote: >3. Does the proposed approach have any scaling issues that could >affect usability for large scale operation? > >Each request asks the server to perform a conversion, which could be >resource intensive. Could lots of requests from one client create a >denial of service attack? > Sections 8.5 (Implementation considerations) and 12 (Security Considerations) talk about denial of service attacks, in particular about server refusing to execute CPU expensive conversions, and about server denying conversion requests on multiple messages and/or multiple body parts of the same message using MAXCONVERTMESSAGES and MAXCONVERTPARTS response codes. In general, an IMAP server can always refuse to execute any command by returning a tagged NO response. MAXCONVERTMESSAGES/MAXCONVERTPARTS response codes allow the server to signal the client why it decided to refuse to execute a command. I will review the document to make sure that what I wrote above is clearly explained in the document. Regards, Alexey _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 17:43:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03E13A6897; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B153A6BF9; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1FCsZJV8NRyX; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7B43A6D35; Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si03.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI03.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.23]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m3F59f26016141; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (sesha.lss.emc.com [10.254.144.12]) by hop04-l1d11-si03.isus.emc.com (Tablus Interceptor); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:06:54 -0400 Received: from corpussmtp3.corp.emc.com (corpussmtp3.corp.emc.com [10.254.64.53]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m3F59Tvl022364; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:09:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Black_David@emc.com Received: from CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com ([128.221.62.11]) by corpussmtp3.corp.emc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:09:29 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:09:28 -0400 Message-ID: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FB0@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt Thread-Index: AcietuD6zRiwq9zOTSK6y1+D8tbCgQ== To: , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Apr 2008 05:09:29.0294 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1FFE6E0:01C89EB6] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.5.1.298604, Antispam-Data: 2007.8.30.53115 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=, SPAM=0%, Reason='EMC_BODY_1+ -3, EMC_FROM_0+ -3, NO_REAL_NAME 0, __C230066_P5 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __IMS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-Tablus-Inspected: yes X-Tablus-Classifications: public X-Tablus-Action: allow X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:43:14 -0700 Cc: chris.newman@Sun.COM, Black_David@emc.com, gparsons@nortel.com Subject: [lemonade] Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I have been selected as the General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviewer for this draft (for background on Gen-ART, please see http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/art/gen-art-FAQ.html). Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments you may receive. Document: draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt Reviewer: David L. Black Review Date: 15 April 2008 IETF LC End Date: 16 April 2008 Summary: This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should be fixed before publication. Comments: This is a generally well-written draft on the CONVERT extension to IMAP. All of these comments are minor nits. In Section 2, please remove this convention: [[anchor3: Editorial comments and questions are marked like this.]] p.10 contains a couple of example email addresses. Please use example.com, example.net or example.org as the domain. In Section 11.1 are the To: and Subject: lines needed as part of the IANA registration? If not, please remove them. In the IANA registration in Section 11.1, please ask IANA to replace RFC XXXX by the RFC number assigned to this draft. idnits 2.08.05 got confused by the square brackets used in IMAP syntax and reported a number of potential reference problems - there are no actual problems. Thanks, --David ---------------------------------------------------- David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 +1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786 black_david@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 ---------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 15 17:49:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90B43A6DE1; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75AA3A6C0C for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.288, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snKqtht-wydC for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74963A6DE1 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3G0oCrh000679; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:50:12 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3G0oBxE019147; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:50:11 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.10 ([10.43.242.10]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:50:11 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:50:04 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Off Topic] Shameless Promotion - NGMAST '08 CFP Thread-Index: AcifW87GvLDVoZB4qUeFNNmeBt9xMA== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: Khalid Al-Begain Subject: [lemonade] [Off Topic] Shameless Promotion - NGMAST '08 CFP X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Call for Papers Next Generation Mobile Applications, Services, and Technologies See http://www.comp.glam.ac.uk/NGMAST08/cfp/cfp.htm Submission deadline extended to 30 April. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 02:41:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E6A28C2FE; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118B128C211 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ex5JfSavun5D for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C627428C180 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411D04AC75 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:42:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1208338930-48160-3929; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:42:10 +0200 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:41:30 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <20080416093056.2D8EC3A698E@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20080416093056.2D8EC3A698E@core3.amsl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lemonade] FYI draft-gulbrandsen-imap-response-codes-02 X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This draft is not a lemonade draft per se, but it was born during the lemonade interop last October, so some of you might want to review it. IETF I-D Submission Tool writes: > A new version of I-D, draft-gulbrandsen-imap-response-codes-02.txt has > been successfuly submitted by Arnt Gulbrandsen and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Filename: draft-gulbrandsen-imap-response-codes I'll ask for an IETF LC in 2-3 weeks. (Read: Two weeks plus however long it takes me to remember doing it ;) Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 16 11:41:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9FD28C1FE; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C00B3A6A40; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:41:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5S2sjIDIyp9V; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86853A6864; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:41:34 +0100 Message-ID: <4806484B.6080602@isode.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:41:15 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Black_David@emc.com References: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FB0@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FB0@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, gparsons@nortel.com, lemonade@ietf.org, peter.coates@Sun.COM, chris.newman@Sun.COM, gen-art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Black_David@emc.com wrote: >I have been selected as the General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) >reviewer for this draft (for background on Gen-ART, please see >http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/art/gen-art-FAQ.html). > >Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments >you may receive. > >Document: draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt >Reviewer: David L. Black >Review Date: 15 April 2008 >IETF LC End Date: 16 April 2008 > > Hi David, Thank you for your review. >Summary: >This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that >should be fixed before publication. > >Comments: >This is a generally well-written draft on the CONVERT extension >to IMAP. All of these comments are minor nits. > >In Section 2, please remove this convention: > [[anchor3: Editorial comments and questions are marked like this.]] > Done. >p.10 contains a couple of example email addresses. Please use >example.com, example.net or example.org as the domain. > Somebody else complained about this earlier, so I've already fixed this in my copy. >In Section 11.1 are the To: and Subject: lines needed as part of >the IANA registration? If not, please remove them. > > They are a part of the IANA template in RFC 2506, so I would rather keep them >In the IANA registration in Section 11.1, please ask IANA to >replace RFC XXXX by the RFC number assigned to this draft. > > Ok. >idnits 2.08.05 got confused by the square brackets used in IMAP >syntax and reported a number of potential reference problems - >there are no actual problems. > > Indeed. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 17 03:59:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63C828C0F8; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883A53A6C26; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:59:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRgi6dSlXlid; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D723A6BF1; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:00:19 +0100 Message-ID: <48072DB3.70901@isode.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:00:03 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Black_David@emc.com References: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FB0@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> <4806484B.6080602@isode.com> <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FEB@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FEB@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, gparsons@nortel.com, lemonade@ietf.org, peter.coates@Sun.COM, chris.newman@Sun.COM, gen-art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Black_David@emc.com wrote: >Alexey, > > Hi David, >Thank you for your prompt response. > >Keeping the To: and Subject: lines in the IANA registration >in Section 11.1 is fine since they are in RFC 2506, and >RFC 2506 is noted in that section as having established >the registry. Please consider adding an informative >reference to RFC 2506, but this is not essential. > > It is already a normative reference in the draft: [MEDIAFEAT-REG] Holtman, K., Mutz, A., and T. Hardie, "Media Feature Tag Registration Procedure", BCP 31, RFC 2506, March 1999. >Thanks, >--David >---------------------------------------------------- >David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer >EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 >+1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786 >black_david@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 >---------------------------------------------------- > > > >>Black_David@emc.com wrote: >> >> >> >>>I have been selected as the General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) >>>reviewer for this draft (for background on Gen-ART, please see >>>http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/art/gen-art-FAQ.html). >>> >>>Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments >>> >>> > > > >>>you may receive. >>> >>>Document: draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt >>>Reviewer: David L. Black >>>Review Date: 15 April 2008 >>>IETF LC End Date: 16 April 2008 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Hi David, >>Thank you for your review. >> >> >> >>>Summary: >>>This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that >>>should be fixed before publication. >>> >>>Comments: >>>This is a generally well-written draft on the CONVERT extension >>>to IMAP. All of these comments are minor nits. >>> >>>In Section 2, please remove this convention: >>> [[anchor3: Editorial comments and questions are marked like >>> >>> >this.]] > > >>Done. >> >> >> >>>p.10 contains a couple of example email addresses. Please use >>>example.com, example.net or example.org as the domain. >>> >>> >>> >>Somebody else complained about this earlier, so I've already fixed >> >> >this > > >>in my copy. >> >> >> >>>In Section 11.1 are the To: and Subject: lines needed as part of >>>the IANA registration? If not, please remove them. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>They are a part of the IANA template in RFC 2506, so I would rather >> >> >keep > > >>them >> >> >> >>>In the IANA registration in Section 11.1, please ask IANA to >>>replace RFC XXXX by the RFC number assigned to this draft. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Ok. >> >> >> >>>idnits 2.08.05 got confused by the square brackets used in IMAP >>>syntax and reported a number of potential reference problems - >>>there are no actual problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Indeed. >> > > > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 05:02:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544033A6F7D; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7A03A6B46; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D63NJhl6AgDO; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397603A6BA3; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:01:03 +0100 Message-ID: <480876D2.8070501@isode.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:24:18 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: David Harrington References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, Lemonade WG , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org David Harrington wrote: >"Such request REQUIREs that the server decode any encoded words " >seems to conflict with >"These parameters are non-trivial, and converting them without >reformatting > the header is not always going to be possible." >So shouldn't this be a SHOULD? > No, I think REQUIRE is correct here. I.e. the server must decode any encoded words. Reformatting is part of reencoding and might be unavoidable. However I agree the text was not entirely clear. Here is the updated text: Any such request REQUIREs the CHARSET parameter. The request REQUIREs that the server decode any encoded words (as described in [RFC2047] in headers and return them re-encoded in the specified charset. (Note that encoded-words might not be needed if the result can be represented entirely in US-ASCII.) If the server can't decode any particular encoded word, for example if the charset or encoding is not recognized, it MUST leave them as is. Servers SHOULD also support decoding of any parameters as described in [RFC2231]. Support for RFC 2231 parameters might require reformatting of header fields during conversion. Consider the following >And I would expect some langugae that >says something about what an implementer is required to support. The >specification should define the requirement at implementation-time, >not the act of a client making a request at runtime. > I think the above text is quite clear on this now. >"The server ought to endeavour to" - should we add "ought to >endeavour" to RFC2119 as keywords? ;-) seriously, can we change this >to RFC2119 terms? > > I've changed this to SHOULD. [...] >"It is important the encoded words be left as encoded words as to do >otherwise may alter the semantics of structured headers." Can this be >phrased in RFC2119 terms? > Rephrased. [...] >section 8.5 does have some text about servers limiting requests and >caches, but this is under implementation considerations, which feels >non-normative. I think acceptable server behavior should be documented >in RFC2119 language, to enhance interoperability. > I've updated and restructured section 8.5 to read more normative. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 05:02:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E4F3A6CAF; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636FE28C221 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p+XDs9E1NJ5e for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1269F28C248 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:00:59 +0100 Message-ID: <48086718.3030805@isode.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:17:12 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Chris Newman References: <71E16C6BB38D6703CB5B24BA@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <47F11D7C.2030607@isode.com> <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> In-Reply-To: <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] AD review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Chris Newman wrote: >>>> A response to a CONVERT command containing the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data >>>> item MUST return a BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data item (in the CONVERTED >>>> response) before any other data items for the same body part. >>> >>> This is an odd requirement and to me violates the principle of least >>> astonishment. I believe it's also the first time we've required an >>> IMAP >>> server to re-order the response data items. >> >> Correct. >> >>> I'd be a lot more comfortable with a requirement that in the event >>> BODYPARTSTRUCTURE is listed prior to BINARY for the same part in the >>> request that it MUST also be listed first in the response. >>> >>> That achieves the same goal >>> (clients can be sure to get it first if they want it first) without >>> mandating the server re-order response data items. >> >> Clients can't have this guaranty with IMAP anyway, because pretty much >> all existing servers reorder [at least some] of FETCH data items. >> >> This requirement is for clients benefit. I.e. the client can expect >> it to >> be the first data item (the second, if UID is also returned), so it can >> take advantage of this. >> I wish we had something similar about UID data item in FETCH. > > Then please write it as a client requirement, please. State that if > the client lists BODYPARTSTRUCTURE before BINARY, then the server MUST > return BODYPARTSTRUCTURE prior to BINARY. That achieves the client > requirement without constraining the server implementation. > I'd like a server implementation that returns items in the order > requested by the client to be compliant with the specification. I see > no reason to declare such a server non-compliant in order to achieve > the necessary client feature. Ok, after further thought I decided that your proposal is reasonable. So I've changed the text to read: If the client lists a BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data item for a section-part before a BINARY data item for the same section-part, then, in the CONVERTED response, the server MUST return the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data prior to the BINARY data. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 06:47:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11673A6AA9; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434F23A6AA9; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:47:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shMTONuZB3oc; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C673A6903; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:47:31 +0100 Message-ID: <4808A661.4050602@isode.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:47:13 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: David Harrington References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> <480876D2.8070501@isode.com> <00c601c8a152$ba95f880$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <00c601c8a152$ba95f880$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, 'Lemonade WG' , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , 'Chris Newman' Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org David Harrington wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] >>Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 3:24 AM >>To: David Harrington >>Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org; 'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'; 'Ron Bonica'; >>peter.coates@Sun.COM; Chris Newman; Lemonade WG >>Subject: Re: ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt >> >> >> Any such request REQUIREs the CHARSET parameter. >> The request REQUIREs that the server decode any encoded words >> (as described in [RFC2047] in headers and return them re-encoded >> in the specified charset. (Note that encoded-words might not be >> needed if the result can be represented entirely in US-ASCII.) >> >> >Does the parenthetical text mean >1) if the original author had used US-ASCII, they could have avoided >using encoded words, > > Yes. Many broken clients try to encode something as encoded words, when they shouldn't. >or 2) the server may re-enode using US-ASCII, and therefore not need >any encoded words, so the result might contain no encoded words, and >the requester should not consider a result with no encoded words to be >an invalid result. > > That too. See below. >I'm not sure which way to read this text. I think the language is too >loose, and, assuming #2 is the answer, then it would be better to >restate this to make it clearer what is required for interoperability, >i.e., what the server implementation MAY return for a result, and what >the requesting implementation MUST be prepared to accept as a result >in this circumstance. > > I will try to clarify. However in this particular case there is no interoperability problem: the client must implement decoding of RFC 2045 encoded words to display messages properly. So the client can display the converted result whether the result contains encoded words or not. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 07:00:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922B728C2C6; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 729693A6E7A; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080418140001.729693A6E7A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-18.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP CONVERT extension Author(s) : A. Melnikov, P. Coates Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-18.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2008-04-18 CONVERT defines extensions to IMAP allowing clients to request adaptation and/or transcoding of attachments. Clients can specify the conversion details or allow servers to decide based on knowledge of client capabilities, on user or administrator preferences or its settings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-18.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-18.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-18065529.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 07:54:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB81E3A6F4F; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:54:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFB13A6E93 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:54:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5VugZHIiazMj for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F563A6E70 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89031604B0C; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:54:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h5AVDf5fPf0C; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03533604B05; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:54:18 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Alexey Melnikov , Chris Newman Message-ID: <0531A6A8973348BECC301890@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <48086718.3030805@isode.com> References: <71E16C6BB38D6703CB5B24BA@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <47F11D7C.2030607@isode.com> <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <48086718.3030805@isode.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] AD review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi Alexey, --On April 18, 2008 10:17:12 AM +0100 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Ok, after further thought I decided that your proposal is reasonable. So > I've changed the text to read: > > If the client lists a BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data item for a section-part > before a BINARY data item for the same section-part, > then, in the CONVERTED response, the server MUST return > the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data prior to the BINARY data. And what if the server splits the response into two CONVERTED responses, one with BODYPARTSTRUCTURE and one with BINARY. Is the server also required to send the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE response before the BINARY response in that multi-response case? If so, that needs to be stated too. -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 08:38:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4823A6D78; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:38:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5717728C114 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:38:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CH-otAIRC3mA for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDDF3A6CBF for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:38:02 +0100 Message-ID: <4808C042.2070706@isode.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:37:38 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Cyrus Daboo References: <71E16C6BB38D6703CB5B24BA@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <47F11D7C.2030607@isode.com> <7B196A96BDFB7D5FAB229356@446E7922C82D299DB29D899F> <48086718.3030805@isode.com> <0531A6A8973348BECC301890@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <0531A6A8973348BECC301890@caldav.corp.apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Chris Newman Subject: Re: [lemonade] AD review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-16.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Hi Alexey, > > --On April 18, 2008 10:17:12 AM +0100 Alexey Melnikov > wrote: > >> Ok, after further thought I decided that your proposal is reasonable. So >> I've changed the text to read: >> >> If the client lists a BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data item for a section-part >> before a BINARY data item for the same section-part, >> then, in the CONVERTED response, the server MUST return >> the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE data prior to the BINARY data. > > And what if the server splits the response into two CONVERTED > responses, one with BODYPARTSTRUCTURE and one with BINARY. Is the > server also required to send the BODYPARTSTRUCTURE response before the > BINARY response in that multi-response case? Yes :-). > If so, that needs to be stated too. Ok, I should add an example. Maybe even a couple. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 11:40:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048F53A6A8E; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id ACC3F3A68F2; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Burger , Glenn Parsons From: Dean Willis(OMA) Message-Id: <20080418184003.ACC3F3A68F2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, Chris Newman , Hubert Segond Subject: [lemonade] New Liaison Statement, "OMA LS 280 MWG-MEM SWG Response to Liaison from the IETF LEMONADE WG" X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: OMA-MWG-MEM List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Title: OMA LS 280 MWG-MEM SWG Response to Liaison from the IETF LEMONADE WG Submission Date: 2008-04-18 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=443 From: Dean Willis(OMA) To: IETF LEMONADE WG(Eric Burger , Glenn Parsons ) Cc: Chris Newman Lisa Dusseault lemonade@ietf.org Reponse Contact: Hubert Segond < hubert.segond@orange-ftgroup.com> Technical Contact: Hubert Segond < hubert.segond@orange-ftgroup.com> Purpose: For information Body: 1) Overview This Liaison Statement is in response to the previous Liaison Statement from the IETF LEMONADE WG, and presented to the OMA MWG-MEM SWG at the Paris OMA meeting in April, 2008. This liaison highlights progress in OMA MWG-MEM regarding our feedback on the OMA MEM requirements in the context of the IETF LEMONADE work. 2) Proposal During our April meeting in Paris, we reviewed OMA Mobile Email (MEM) requirements with Mr. Alexey Melnikov from the IETF LEMONADE WG, and confirmed that LEMONADE generally meets the requirements in the OMA MEM RD. We also discussed requirements that were unclear to IETF LEMONADE, and provided feedback with regards to their applicability to the LEMONADE work. This feedback is captured in an updated review document, which can be downloaded from the OMA portal at: http://www.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/MWG/MEM/2008/OMA-MEM-2008-0024-INP_Mapping_MEMRD_to_Lemonade.OMA_MEM.Paris.Updated.zip We look forward to updating you on our work progress at the upcoming IETF LEMONADE meeting, July 2008, in Dublin, Ireland. 3) Requested Action(s) This Liaison Statement is in response to the previous Liaison Statement sent by IETF LEMONADE WG to MWG-MEM SWG. OMA MWG-MEM is happy to collaborate with the IETF LEMONADE WG in any matter related to the Mobile Email activity. Attachment(s): Original LS in DOC format (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file550.doc) _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 18 18:00:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA79128C2DC; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id F17A73A6930; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080419010001.F17A73A6930@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-08.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : Lemonade Notifications Architecture Author(s) : R. Gellens, S. Maes Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-08.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2008-04-18 This document discusses how to provide notification and filtering mechanisms to mail stores to meet Lemonade goals. This document also discusses the use of server to server notifications, and how server to server notifications fit into an architecture which provides server to client notifications. Gellens [page 1] Expires October 2008 Internet Draft Lemonade Notifications Architecture April 2008 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-08.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-18174533.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 21 08:10:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143133A6B01; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:10:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C560F28C267 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kicxv-OGrJw1 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from QMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.48]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0339728C248 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OMTA11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.36]) by QMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ez6d1Z00H0mv7h05506f00; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:50:14 +0000 Received: from Harrington73653 ([24.128.66.199]) by OMTA11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id F0qB1Z0084HwxpC3X00000; Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:50:15 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=nZSNCdtNJ3Z2_R4cVxwA:9 a=DtaAbW65NiHK-9BfEl0syNyzyIEA:4 a=cat5K2ZOYqEA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 a=KdsN9ty_cgEA:10 a=gJcimI5xSWUA:10 From: "David Harrington" To: "'Alexey Melnikov'" References: <052c01c898f7$ef8ae360$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> <480876D2.8070501@isode.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:50:06 -0700 Message-ID: <00c601c8a152$ba95f880$0600a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcihS+eVIhfZlBpBS4utSnzaqqIocgABQ7LQ In-Reply-To: <480876D2.8070501@isode.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:10:17 -0700 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, 'Lemonade WG' , 'Ron Bonica' , peter.coates@Sun.COM, "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , 'Chris Newman' Subject: Re: [lemonade] ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 3:24 AM > To: David Harrington > Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org; 'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'; 'Ron Bonica'; > peter.coates@Sun.COM; Chris Newman; Lemonade WG > Subject: Re: ops-dir review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt > > > Any such request REQUIREs the CHARSET parameter. > The request REQUIREs that the server decode any encoded words > (as described in [RFC2047] in headers and return them re-encoded > in the specified charset. (Note that encoded-words might not be > needed if the result can be represented entirely in US-ASCII.) Does the parenthetical text mean 1) if the original author had used US-ASCII, they could have avoided using encoded words, or 2) the server may re-enode using US-ASCII, and therefore not need any encoded words, so the result might contain no encoded words, and the requester should not consider a result with no encoded words to be an invalid result. I'm not sure which way to read this text. I think the language is too loose, and, assuming #2 is the answer, then it would be better to restate this to make it clearer what is required for interoperability, i.e., what the server implementation MAY return for a result, and what the requesting implementation MUST be prepared to accept as a result in this circumstance. dbh _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Mon Apr 21 08:11:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F365A28C428; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CDA3A68D7; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.608 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.608 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.991, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KhA5Yx9imEva; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1E03A6C9D; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI01.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.54]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m3GJ7ZGw016152; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (uraeus.lss.emc.com [10.254.144.14]) by hop04-l1d11-si01.isus.emc.com (Tablus Interceptor); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:07:35 -0400 Received: from corpussmtp4.corp.emc.com (corpussmtp4.corp.emc.com [10.254.64.54]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m3GJ7Qt7013448; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:07:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Black_David@emc.com Received: from CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com ([128.221.62.11]) by corpussmtp4.corp.emc.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:07:27 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:07:27 -0400 Message-ID: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FEB@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> In-Reply-To: <4806484B.6080602@isode.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt Thread-Index: Acif8YyhMIyNrfyYQBWey6m7HEQU9wAAmQvg References: <8CC6CEAB44F131478D3A7B429ECACD91016F5FB0@CORPUSMX20A.corp.emc.com> <4806484B.6080602@isode.com> To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2008 19:07:27.0964 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CD5D9C0:01C89FF5] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.5.1.298604, Antispam-Data: 2007.8.30.51425 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=, SPAM=0%, Reason='EMC_BODY_1+ -3, EMC_FROM_0+ -3, NO_REAL_NAME 0, __C230066_P5 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __IMS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-Tablus-Inspected: yes X-Tablus-Classifications: public X-Tablus-Action: allow X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:11:28 -0700 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, gparsons@nortel.com, lemonade@ietf.org, peter.coates@Sun.COM, Black_David@emc.com, chris.newman@Sun.COM, gen-art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Gen-ART review of draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Alexey, Thank you for your prompt response. Keeping the To: and Subject: lines in the IANA registration in Section 11.1 is fine since they are in RFC 2506, and RFC 2506 is noted in that section as having established the registry. Please consider adding an informative reference to RFC 2506, but this is not essential. Thanks, --David ---------------------------------------------------- David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA 01748 +1 (508) 293-7953 FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786 black_david@emc.com Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754 ---------------------------------------------------- > Black_David@emc.com wrote: > > >I have been selected as the General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) > >reviewer for this draft (for background on Gen-ART, please see > >http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/art/gen-art-FAQ.html). > > > >Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments > >you may receive. > > > >Document: draft-ietf-lemonade-convert-17.txt > >Reviewer: David L. Black > >Review Date: 15 April 2008 > >IETF LC End Date: 16 April 2008 > > > > > Hi David, > Thank you for your review. > > >Summary: > >This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that > >should be fixed before publication. > > > >Comments: > >This is a generally well-written draft on the CONVERT extension > >to IMAP. All of these comments are minor nits. > > > >In Section 2, please remove this convention: > > [[anchor3: Editorial comments and questions are marked like this.]] > > > Done. > > >p.10 contains a couple of example email addresses. Please use > >example.com, example.net or example.org as the domain. > > > Somebody else complained about this earlier, so I've already fixed this > in my copy. > > >In Section 11.1 are the To: and Subject: lines needed as part of > >the IANA registration? If not, please remove them. > > > > > They are a part of the IANA template in RFC 2506, so I would rather keep > them > > >In the IANA registration in Section 11.1, please ask IANA to > >replace RFC XXXX by the RFC number assigned to this draft. > > > > > Ok. > > >idnits 2.08.05 got confused by the square brackets used in IMAP > >syntax and reported a number of potential reference problems - > >there are no actual problems. > > > > > Indeed. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 06:52:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F333A6AA2; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73FDE28C29E for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GtkVGpe+sF8E for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (unknown [151.201.22.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CB93A69DB for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2106D6328AE; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:52:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2z-t71-sPi9; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1626328A7; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:52:18 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: IMAPEXT , Lemonade Message-ID: <382E0AEE8420B34FA6D7A5A0@caldav.corp.apple.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-13.txt (fwd) X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Hi folks, I have posted a new version of the METADATA extension. This is undergone some major changes following discussions of simplification last month. The key changes are the removal of the LIST-EXTENDED dependency, and the removal of attributes from the data model. Please review. ------------ Forwarded Message ----------- Date: April 21, 2008 7:45:02 PM -0700 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-13.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IMAP METADATA Extension Author(s) : C. Daboo Filename : draft-daboo-imap-annotatemore-13.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2008-04-21 ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- -- Cyrus Daboo _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 14:10:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143F828C45A; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3672128C335 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xq3nq-Uyhd7U for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EEB3A6EA6 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLAmxZ019810 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:48 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLAkPe001688 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:46 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.5 ([10.43.242.5]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:10:46 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:10:45 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] WGLC NOTIFY Thread-Index: AciTN7OufZxdL40VSUyz1cVEOO/zuARhaCc9 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC NOTIFY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org WGLC is closed. On 3/31/08 10:01 AM, "Eric Burger" wrote: > IMAP NOTIFY is ready for Work Group Last Call. > > There has already been one comment that Alexey said he will put in the > final version. Anything else anyone wants to see? > > txt> > > WGLC closes 11 April 2008. > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain > information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated > entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or > legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or > entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have > received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and > then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 14:32:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6F13A6E93; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23E43A6E93 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRrKjjDd8TKD for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61E13A6A6C for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLWt40022581 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:55 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLWqiT002415 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:32:54 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.5 ([10.43.242.5]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:32:52 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:32:52 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: AcikwGs+k+0l/J3saUiE0SjAuaHo3w== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Although this is a short document, only 6 pages of text, it did grow by two pages and the ABNF was revamped and the example was corrected. Thus we are holding a second call for final comments. The period for getting your comments in expires 2 May 2008. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-02 Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 14:33:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342C23A6EC7; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29ED03A6F02 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qptpKN-4aPgB for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD0D3A6EC7 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLXTAr023318 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:33:29 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLXLEh013512 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:33:28 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.5 ([10.43.242.5]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:33:26 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:33:25 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: WGLC Notifications Thread-Index: AcikwH7q57EiPSThR0eV7IfH9NSuxg== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: [lemonade] WGLC Notifications X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Work Group Last Call for Lemonade Notifications Architecture, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lemonade-notifications-08 starts now and ends 5 May 2008. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 14:36:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD4A3A6FB3; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65603A6FB3 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kUZKrSH9oA8r for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89263A6C7E for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLZr7f027114 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:35:53 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MLZqOu018018 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:35:52 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.5 ([10.43.242.5]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:35:52 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:35:51 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] WGLC NOTIFY Thread-Index: AciTN7OufZxdL40VSUyz1cVEOO/zuARhaCc9AADgaS4= In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 2 Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: Re: [lemonade] WGLC NOTIFY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org OK, I may have been joking: there were absolutely NO last call comments. If NOTIFY is so beautiful that you couldn't even hit +1, go ahead, feel good, and +1 me. Thanks. On 4/22/08 5:10 PM, "Eric Burger" wrote: > WGLC is closed. > > > On 3/31/08 10:01 AM, "Eric Burger" wrote: > >> IMAP NOTIFY is ready for Work Group Last Call. >> >> There has already been one comment that Alexey said he will put in the >> final version. Anything else anyone wants to see? >> >> > txt> >> >> WGLC closes 11 April 2008. >> >> Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain >> information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated >> entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or >> legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or >> entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have >> received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and >> then delete it. >> _______________________________________________ >> lemonade mailing list >> lemonade@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade >> Supplemental Web Site: >> http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain > information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated > entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or > legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or > entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have > received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and > then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 15:14:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F04D3A6F2D; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F36328C1FC for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPzJy-jBbrhE for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2280428C0ED for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MMEXc8023157; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:14:33 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3MMEWTb032355; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:14:32 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.5 ([10.43.242.5]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:14:31 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:14:30 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Chris Newman Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Document Shepherd Write-Up: Lemonade IMAP SIEVE Thread-Index: AcikxjwrEb5gBSCawEuVmCHuVvzDuA== Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] Document Shepherd Write-Up: Lemonade IMAP SIEVE X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org DOCUMENT: Support for Sieve in Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP4) draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05 (Standards Track) (1.a) Document Shepherd: Eric Burger, eburger@bea.com , personally reviewed this document. This document is ready for publication. (1.b) Work group review: The lemonade work group provided review of this document. (1.c) Further review required: This document does not need further specialized review, as it has received review by many members of the IMAP community. (1.d.i) Document Shepherd Comfort Level: High (1.d.ii) Document Useful and Needed: Yes (1.d.iii) IPR Disclosures: None known (1.e) WG Consensus: There were a few comments by Randy Gellens on the WGLC of -04; changes are incorporated in -05. There was discussion about support for multiple scripts, but the strong work group consensus was to only support single scripts at this time. (1.f) There are no members with objections or concerns. There are no threats of appeal or process issues. (1.g) ID-nits: Check and verified with idnits 2.08.08 (1.h) References: There is a downref, as this draft has a normative reference to ANNOTATE, which currently is Experimental. However, the draft references ANNOTATE in a manner of, "if the server supports ANNOTATE, then SIEVE can do X." Thus there is no normative dependency on an interoperable implementation on ANNOTATE. There are outdated references the RFC editor can fix. (1.i) IANA Considerations: Yes, correct, consistent, and follows Sieve and Metadata rules. (1.j) ABNF: No ABNF in the document (1.k) Document Announcement: Technical Summary This document defines how Sieve can plug into points in the IMAP protocol where messages are created or changed, adding the option of user-defined or installation-defined filtering (or, with Sieve extensions, features such as notifications). Working Group Summary There is consensus in the WG to publish this document. There are three client implementations and four server implementations by work group members. Document Quality Virtually all members of the Lemonade WG have reviewed the document. The document has been checked manually and using idnits 2.08.08, and passed both checks. Eric Burger shepherds this document, has reviewed this document, and believes that this version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication. Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 22 20:37:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27983A69C0; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F6E3A685B for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:36:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uir6Wd-JOYxj for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail3.lucent.com (ihemail3.lucent.com [135.245.0.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E053A69C0 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilexp01.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-1.lucent.com [135.3.39.1]) by ihemail3.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id m3N3b2gf023552 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:37:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com ([135.3.39.10]) by ilexp01.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:37:02 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:37:02 -0500 Message-ID: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE1901E13196@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: AcikwGs+k+0l/J3saUiE0SjAuaHo3wAFM0sA References: From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M \(Greg\)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Apr 2008 03:37:02.0402 (UTC) FILETIME=[4B195A20:01C8A4F3] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.37 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I have given this document a once-over and see no issues. It would be an improvement to see this document and RFC 4467 (URLAUTH) merged into a single document, a single standard that supersedes URLAUTH. I don't anticipate future implementers will code the base URLAUTH without these extensions. Greg V. -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Burger Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:33 PM To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Although this is a short document, only 6 pages of text, it did grow by two pages and the ABNF was revamped and the example was corrected. Thus we are holding a second call for final comments. The period for getting your comments in expires 2 May 2008. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-02 Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 04:18:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3D53A6CCD; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A686E3A6CA3 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:17:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19BRMNvKY+Vr for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD533A6D64 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C6D4AC7B for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:18:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1208949482-48160-7346; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:18:02 +0200 Message-Id: <8w3qGdVJ0ZKcXy5t+DQfUA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:17:30 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: lemonade@ietf.org References: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE1901E13196@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE1901E13196@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) writes: > It would be an improvement to see this document and RFC 4467 (URLAUTH) > merged into a single document, a single standard that supersedes > URLAUTH. Yes, agreed. Just importing the text and superseding 4467 would be okay. I feel a little overwhelmed by the number of RFCs, so I imagine other people will be, too. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Wed Apr 23 15:15:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28573A6A75; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@ietf.org Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 86AD13A6B54; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <20080423221502.86AD13A6B54@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: [lemonade] I-D Action:draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-05.txt X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to Support Diverse Service Environments Working Group of the IETF. Title : Streaming Internet Messaging Attachments Author(s) : N. Cook Filename : draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-05.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2008-04-23 This document describes a method for streaming multimedia attachments received by a resource constrained and/or mobile device from an IMAP server. It allows such clients, which often have limits in storage space and bandwidth, to play video and audio e-mail content. The document describes a profile for making use of the IMAP URLAUTH extension (RFC 4467), the Network Announcement SIP Media Service (RFC 4240), and the Media Server Control Markup Language (RFC 5022).Conventions Used in this Document The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [KEYWORDS]. In examples, "C:" and "S:" indicate lines sent by the client and server respectively. If a single "C:" or "S:" label applies to multiple lines, then the line breaks between those lines are for editorial clarity only and are not part of the actual protocol exchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-05.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-04-23150548.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --NextPart-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 01:38:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444D83A686F; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764B23A67B2 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZOAkD8Dn89pL for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.noware.co.uk (noware.co.uk [82.153.134.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5354C3A686F for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.noware.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1008) id 5A81137B3; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:20:53 +0100 (BST) X-CMAE-Analysis: Received: from [172.22.1.175] (nat.cloudmark.com [72.5.239.5]) by mail.noware.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A6636EC for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:20:51 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) In-Reply-To: <20080423220548.CB3533A6B54@core3.amsl.com> References: <20080423220548.CB3533A6B54@core3.amsl.com> Message-Id: From: Neil Cook Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:38:37 +0100 To: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Subject: Re: [lemonade] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-05 X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org FYI, diffs from -04 are as in the Philadelphia meeting minutes, i.e.: - Updated to include revised syntax from draft-cridland-urlfetch- binary-02 (although I forgot to update the reference, and IDNits doesn't pick it up because the above is not a lemonade doc yet). - Moved media-server discovery to a hand-waving section. Removed METADATA attributes and reference METADATA purely informatively now. - No METADATA attributes thus Iana Considerations is empty. - Various minor text cleanups throughout the doc. Neil On 23 Apr 2008, at 23:05, IETF I-D Submission Tool wrote: > > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming-05.txt has been > successfuly submitted by Neil Cook and posted to the IETF repository. > > Filename: draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming > Revision: 05 > Title: Streaming Internet Messaging Attachments > Creation_date: 2008-04-23 > WG ID: lemonade > Number_of_pages: 29 > > Abstract: > This document describes a method for streaming multimedia attachments > received by a resource constrained and/or mobile device from an IMAP > server. It allows such clients, which often have limits in storage > space and bandwidth, to play video and audio e-mail content. > > The document describes a profile for making use of the IMAP URLAUTH > extension (RFC 4467), the Network Announcement SIP Media Service (RFC > 4240), and the Media Server Control Markup Language (RFC > 5022).Conventions Used in this Document > > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this > document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [KEYWORDS]. > > In examples, "C:" and "S:" indicate lines sent by the client and > server respectively. If a single "C:" or "S:" label applies to > multiple lines, then the line breaks between those lines are for > editorial clarity only and are not part of the actual protocol > exchange. > > > > The IETF Secretariat. > > > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 08:57:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3442328C2D0; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:57:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803F228C2B1 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.577, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X10nXwQGDCmA for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [135.245.0.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90DD3A6A80 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-2.lucent.com [135.3.39.2]) by ihemail2.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id m3OFuQl9005825 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:56:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com ([135.3.39.58]) by ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:56:39 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:56:38 -0500 Message-ID: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BAED@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Message re-save Thread-Index: AcimI8elJnUZV7dPQtqvzEZ8Z0wzVQ== From: "Ganguly, Gopa \(Gopa\)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2008 15:56:39.0220 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8282740:01C8A623] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.35 Subject: [lemonade] Message re-save X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1801098757==" Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1801098757== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8A623.C8203B9A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8A623.C8203B9A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We are currently trying to come up with an efficient way to resave voicemail messages that are near or at expiry. The client could FETCH the message, and then turn around and APPEND it to the mailbox -- but that would mean an inefficient roundtrip for the audio data in the message.=20 Has anyone in this group looked into this scenario, or has any suggestions?=20 Thanks Gopa Ganguly ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8A623.C8203B9A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message re-save

Hi,

We are currently trying to come up = with an efficient way to resave voicemail messages that are near or at = expiry. The client could FETCH the message, and then turn around and = APPEND it to the mailbox -- but that would mean an inefficient roundtrip = for the audio data in the message.

Has anyone in this group looked into = this scenario, or has any suggestions?

Thanks
Gopa Ganguly

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8A623.C8203B9A-- --===============1801098757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade --===============1801098757==-- From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 09:49:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288A528C2C3; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EE43A6CBD for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.261, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qOd4RLjRB-yv for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC3728C316 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.168] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:48:23 +0100 Message-ID: <4810B9B2.1060202@isode.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:47:46 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: "Ganguly, Gopa \(Gopa\)" References: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BAED@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BAED@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) wrote: > Hi, > Hi, > We are currently trying to come up with an efficient way to resave > voicemail messages that are near or at expiry. > How message expiration is stored in the message store? Is it derived from message's INTERNALDATE, stored as a message annotation, ...? > The client could FETCH the message, and then turn around and APPEND it > to the mailbox -- but that would mean an inefficient roundtrip for the > audio data in the message. > > Has anyone in this group looked into this scenario, or has any > suggestions? > If you need to use APPEND, then you can use IMAP CATENATE Extension (RFC 4469) together with IMAP URLAUTH Extension (RFC 4467). But the exact answer to your question depends on your answer about how message expiration is stored. Regards, Alexey _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 10:06:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE8B3A6C8E; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:06:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0F23A6C87 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zivt2Q+XNefk for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C1B3A6CD0 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3OH6YE4031833; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:06:34 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3OH6WRO024559; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:06:33 -0700 Received: from 10.43.242.108 ([10.43.242.108]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:06:32 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.1.0.080305 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:06:31 -0400 From: Eric Burger To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: AcimLYqnk3FQQqgxc0Km+iWV1F0yPQ== In-Reply-To: <8w3qGdVJ0ZKcXy5t+DQfUA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Mime-version: 1.0 x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Yes, and... They do not have to go together; one could envision one without the other. Thus, rather than combining the two documents, creating the need for a full WGLC, and further delaying other, dependent documents, let us leave it as two documents for now. When we want to go for DS on either URLAUTH or BINARY, we can consolidate them as experience merits. On 4/23/08 7:17 AM, "Arnt Gulbrandsen" wrote: > Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) writes: >> It would be an improvement to see this document and RFC 4467 (URLAUTH) >> merged into a single document, a single standard that supersedes >> URLAUTH. > > Yes, agreed. Just importing the text and superseding 4467 would be okay. > > I feel a little overwhelmed by the number of RFCs, so I imagine other > people will be, too. > > Arnt > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 10:11:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD6928C28E; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4513A6D14 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DAJ60PF5TbiS for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748DB28C29F for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.168] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:11:05 +0100 Message-ID: <4810BF02.1030205@isode.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:10:26 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Eric Burger References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Eric Burger wrote: >Yes, and... > >They do not have to go together; one could envision one without the other. >Thus, rather than combining the two documents, creating the need for a full >WGLC, and further delaying other, dependent documents, let us leave it as >two documents for now. > >When we want to go for DS on either URLAUTH or BINARY, we can consolidate >them as experience merits. > > While agree with the desire on not merging the two documents now, this brings a question of whether both documents should be in Profile Bis, or just URLAUTH. >On 4/23/08 7:17 AM, "Arnt Gulbrandsen" wrote: > > >>Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) writes: >> >> >>>It would be an improvement to see this document and RFC 4467 (URLAUTH) >>>merged into a single document, a single standard that supersedes >>>URLAUTH. >>> >>> >>Yes, agreed. Just importing the text and superseding 4467 would be okay. >> >>I feel a little overwhelmed by the number of RFCs, so I imagine other >>people will be, too. >> >>Arnt >> >> _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 12:37:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4705F3A6935; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E093A6A1E for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.789, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zzLENV22Fs2o for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail4.lucent.com (ihemail4.lucent.com [135.245.0.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98E3A6873 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-2.lucent.com [135.3.39.2]) by ihemail4.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id m3OJa4Lg007061; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:37:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com ([135.3.39.58]) by ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:36:54 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:36:53 -0500 Message-ID: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BCA0@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <4810B9B2.1060202@isode.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Message re-save Thread-Index: AcimKwgheufOWtJcQuOlCHqoEJXLGQAABKLA References: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BAED@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> <4810B9B2.1060202@isode.com> From: "Ganguly, Gopa \(Gopa\)" To: "Alexey Melnikov" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2008 19:36:54.0862 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D4B16E0:01C8A642] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.39 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org The message expiration is indicated by an "Expired" flag. The system only sets the flag, and does not automatically delete the message -- giving subscribers a "chance" to resave it. Alternately, the INTERNALDATE could also be used by the client. But there is no message annotation. Either way, the client knows of the expiry, without downloading the entire message. The question is, can we resave the message but avoid methods which will need the message to be downloaded, before it is resaved. Your suggestion to use: APPEND CATENATE would work. Since in this case, the server doing the APPEND is also the server in the IMAP-URL, we may not need URLAUTH. Thanks Gopa -----Original Message----- From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:48 PM To: Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) wrote: > Hi, > Hi, > We are currently trying to come up with an efficient way to resave > voicemail messages that are near or at expiry. > How message expiration is stored in the message store? Is it derived from message's INTERNALDATE, stored as a message annotation, ...? > The client could FETCH the message, and then turn around and APPEND it > to the mailbox -- but that would mean an inefficient roundtrip for the > audio data in the message. > > Has anyone in this group looked into this scenario, or has any > suggestions? > If you need to use APPEND, then you can use IMAP CATENATE Extension (RFC 4469) together with IMAP URLAUTH Extension (RFC 4467). But the exact answer to your question depends on your answer about how message expiration is stored. Regards, Alexey _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 13:43:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E543A6D04; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590083A6BEE for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6DrfQIcn5xKT for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E983A6AA3 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3OKhdQp003453; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:39 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3OKhXAV000314; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:43:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BCA0@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Message re-save Thread-Index: AcimKwgheufOWtJcQuOlCHqoEJXLGQAABKLAAAggbUA= References: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BAED@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com><4810B9B2.1060202@isode.com> <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BCA0@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> From: "Eric Burger" To: "Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa)" x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org It sounds like you are mixing voice message semantics with IMAP semantics. Why go through the pain of "resaving". You are going to put a bunch of packets on the wire to simply change the Expired flag. Sounds like you need to separate the voice mail systems idea of expired and IMAP's idea of Expired. -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:37 PM To: Alexey Melnikov Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save The message expiration is indicated by an "Expired" flag. The system only sets the flag, and does not automatically delete the message -- giving subscribers a "chance" to resave it. Alternately, the INTERNALDATE could also be used by the client. But there is no message annotation. Either way, the client knows of the expiry, without downloading the entire message. The question is, can we resave the message but avoid methods which will need the message to be downloaded, before it is resaved. Your suggestion to use: APPEND CATENATE would work. Since in this case, the server doing the APPEND is also the server in the IMAP-URL, we may not need URLAUTH. Thanks Gopa -----Original Message----- From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:48 PM To: Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) wrote: > Hi, > Hi, > We are currently trying to come up with an efficient way to resave > voicemail messages that are near or at expiry. > How message expiration is stored in the message store? Is it derived from message's INTERNALDATE, stored as a message annotation, ...? > The client could FETCH the message, and then turn around and APPEND it > to the mailbox -- but that would mean an inefficient roundtrip for the > audio data in the message. > > Has anyone in this group looked into this scenario, or has any > suggestions? > If you need to use APPEND, then you can use IMAP CATENATE Extension (RFC 4469) together with IMAP URLAUTH Extension (RFC 4467). But the exact answer to your question depends on your answer about how message expiration is stored. Regards, Alexey _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 13:48:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608FD3A69D5; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097E73A69D5 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3cTu0zrpsOx for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (rnextsmtp.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2F53A6913 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr01.bea.com (repmmr01.bea.com [10.160.29.71]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3OKmohJ012038; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:50 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr01.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3OKmmh3008086; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:48 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:48:44 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4810BF02.1030205@isode.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: AcimLjMsBYsQhYdKQzicm9jXxPYJGgAHlHIA References: <4810BF02.1030205@isode.com> From: "Eric Burger" To: "Alexey Melnikov" x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Sensible to be in Profile-bis. -----Original Message----- From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:10 PM To: Eric Burger Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen; lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Eric Burger wrote: >Yes, and... > >They do not have to go together; one could envision one without the other. >Thus, rather than combining the two documents, creating the need for a >full WGLC, and further delaying other, dependent documents, let us >leave it as two documents for now. > >When we want to go for DS on either URLAUTH or BINARY, we can >consolidate them as experience merits. > > While agree with the desire on not merging the two documents now, this brings a question of whether both documents should be in Profile Bis, or just URLAUTH. >On 4/23/08 7:17 AM, "Arnt Gulbrandsen" wrote: > > >>Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) writes: >> >> >>>It would be an improvement to see this document and RFC 4467 >>>(URLAUTH) merged into a single document, a single standard that >>>supersedes URLAUTH. >>> >>> >>Yes, agreed. Just importing the text and superseding 4467 would be okay. >> >>I feel a little overwhelmed by the number of RFCs, so I imagine other >>people will be, too. >> >>Arnt >> >> Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Thu Apr 24 15:51:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37BA3A6AC4; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA503A6BF0 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ebsIRGOD4nK for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088FE3A6D04 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-2.lucent.com [135.3.39.2]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id m3OMoilR000129; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:50:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com ([135.3.39.10]) by ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:50:48 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:50:47 -0500 Message-ID: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE1901E131BF@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <4810BF02.1030205@isode.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: AcimU/3j5FP46WcSRuu+fGQ2V5I50QACNBDg References: <4810BF02.1030205@isode.com> From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M \(Greg\)" To: "Eric Burger" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2008 22:50:48.0259 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3569930:01C8A65D] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Just BINARY. Greg V. -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:10 PM To: Eric Burger Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Eric Burger wrote: >Yes, and... > >They do not have to go together; one could envision one without the other. >Thus, rather than combining the two documents, creating the need for a full >WGLC, and further delaying other, dependent documents, let us leave it as >two documents for now. > >When we want to go for DS on either URLAUTH or BINARY, we can consolidate >them as experience merits. > > While agree with the desire on not merging the two documents now, this brings a question of whether both documents should be in Profile Bis, or just URLAUTH. >On 4/23/08 7:17 AM, "Arnt Gulbrandsen" wrote: > > >>Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) writes: >> >> >>>It would be an improvement to see this document and RFC 4467 (URLAUTH) >>>merged into a single document, a single standard that supersedes >>>URLAUTH. >>> >>> >>Yes, agreed. Just importing the text and superseding 4467 would be okay. >> >>I feel a little overwhelmed by the number of RFCs, so I imagine other >>people will be, too. >> >>Arnt >> >> _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 25 05:37:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2BDF3A69E5; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:37:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F18C3A69E5 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:37:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H4IsVLBE703Q for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turner.dave.cridland.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:838:378:0:211:9ff:fe2c:e28e]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36E73A6A2B for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([217.155.137.61]) by turner.dave.cridland.net (submission) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:37:22 +0100 References: <4810BF02.1030205@isode.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20730.1209127041.008015@peirce.dave.cridland.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:37:21 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Eric Burger Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org On Thu Apr 24 21:48:44 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > > Sensible to be in Profile-bis. > > But streaming isn't, and this is only needed for (and mandated by) streaming. So in a sense, draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming is a "Streaming Profile", and the two can be kept distinct. (Although the OMA can mandate both if they want). Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 25 05:38:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4761C28C30C; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1805F28C30C for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSCDnRTcBn+r for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmg02.bea.com (repmmg02.bea.com [66.248.192.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7B228C2FA for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from repmmr02.bea.com (repmmr02.bea.com [10.160.30.72]) by repmmg02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3PCcdPe011247; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:39 -0700 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by repmmr02.bea.com (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.2.7) with ESMTP id m3PCccPd016524; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: Acim0S/sdlmjcljHRt6F/zMg6o/n1AAABjLM From: "Eric Burger" To: x-BEA-PMX-Instructions: AV x-BEA-MM: Internal-To-External Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I'd buy that, too. -- Sent from my wireless e-mail device. Sorry if terse. We all need lemonade: see for what lemonade is. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Cridland To: Eric Burger Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments Sent: Fri Apr 25 05:37:21 2008 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY On Thu Apr 24 21:48:44 2008, Eric Burger wrote: > > Sensible to be in Profile-bis. > > But streaming isn't, and this is only needed for (and mandated by) streaming. So in a sense, draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming is a "Streaming Profile", and the two can be kept distinct. (Although the OMA can mandate both if they want). Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 25 05:45:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8623A6B62; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCABC3A6939 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HRDO+hcVZAeC for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.noware.co.uk (noware.co.uk [82.153.134.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD7028C157 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.noware.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1008) id 7602337B3; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:27:43 +0100 (BST) X-CMAE-Analysis: Received: from [192.168.0.111] (anagu.york.openwave.com [192.168.0.111]) by mail.noware.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A3A36EC for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:27:42 +0100 (BST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <1382ACCE-745C-45CC-9663-E81E8CAE44E4@noware.co.uk> From: Neil Cook Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:45:32 +0100 To: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org +1 Neil On 25 Apr 2008, at 13:38, Eric Burger wrote: > I'd buy that, too. > > -- > Sent from my wireless e-mail device. Sorry if terse. We all need > lemonade: see for > what lemonade is. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Cridland > To: Eric Burger > Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service > enivronments > Sent: Fri Apr 25 05:37:21 2008 > Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY > > On Thu Apr 24 21:48:44 2008, Eric Burger wrote: >> >> Sensible to be in Profile-bis. >> >> > But streaming isn't, and this is only needed for (and mandated by) > streaming. > > So in a sense, draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming is a "Streaming > Profile", and the two can be kept distinct. (Although the OMA can > mandate both if they want). > > Dave. > -- > Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org > - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ > - http://dave.cridland.net/ > Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may > contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries > and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, > copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for > the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you > are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in > error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 25 08:57:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3CD3A6BF2; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:57:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBE63A6BF2 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:57:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TcPgiOdzjwg6 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP.andrew.cmu.edu [128.2.10.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF7A3A69A3 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.137.23] (cpe-69-207-86-125.buffalo.res.rr.com [69.207.86.125]) (user=murch mech=PLAIN (0 bits)) by smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m3PFvlW6028281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:57:47 -0400 Message-ID: <4811FF7E.4030000@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:57:50 -0400 From: Ken Murchison Organization: Carnegie Mellon University User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.60 on 128.2.10.85 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org The doc looks good to me. It appears the only change from -01 is the decoupling of the BINARY and BODYPARTSTRUCTURE options (as requested by Alexey), correct? I gave the ABNF a quick pass and it looks correct. Eric Burger wrote: > Although this is a short document, only 6 pages of text, it did grow by two > pages and the ABNF was revamped and the example was corrected. Thus we are > holding a second call for final comments. > > The period for getting your comments in expires 2 May 2008. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cridland-urlfetch-binary-02 > > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > -- Kenneth Murchison Systems Programmer Project Cyrus Developer/Maintainer Carnegie Mellon University _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Fri Apr 25 11:50:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278763A6B18; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:50:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A8A3A69AE for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uVnRW-gLAHzj for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com (ihemail1.lucent.com [135.245.0.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDB63A6784 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilexp01.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-1.lucent.com [135.3.39.1]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id m3PIn49D029046; Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:50:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com ([135.3.39.10]) by ilexp01.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:49:16 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:49:16 -0500 Message-ID: <89017B166CB7E140BA80577FF744AE1901E131CF@ILEXC2U01.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <1382ACCE-745C-45CC-9663-E81E8CAE44E4@noware.co.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY Thread-Index: Acim0lW/YJjycwexSXycRGQtA2CTFAAMYg6A References: <1382ACCE-745C-45CC-9663-E81E8CAE44E4@noware.co.uk> From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M \(Greg\)" To: "Neil Cook" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Apr 2008 18:49:16.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[0FF63D50:01C8A705] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org I missed that streaming was out of profile 2, so, +1 for URLAUTH only. Greg V. -----Original Message----- From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Neil Cook Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:46 AM To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY +1 Neil On 25 Apr 2008, at 13:38, Eric Burger wrote: > I'd buy that, too. > > -- > Sent from my wireless e-mail device. Sorry if terse. We all need > lemonade: see for > what lemonade is. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Cridland > To: Eric Burger > Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service > enivronments > Sent: Fri Apr 25 05:37:21 2008 > Subject: Re: [lemonade] Second WGLC: BINARY > > On Thu Apr 24 21:48:44 2008, Eric Burger wrote: >> >> Sensible to be in Profile-bis. >> >> > But streaming isn't, and this is only needed for (and mandated by) > streaming. > > So in a sense, draft-ietf-lemonade-streaming is a "Streaming > Profile", and the two can be kept distinct. (Although the OMA can > mandate both if they want). > > Dave. > -- > Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org > - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ > - http://dave.cridland.net/ > Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade > > Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may > contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries > and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, > copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for > the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you > are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in > error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. > _______________________________________________ > lemonade mailing list > lemonade@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade > Supplemental Web Site: > http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 29 05:22:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lemonade-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-lemonade-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56ADC3A6C8A; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: lemonade@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2BC3A6D51 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.202, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t3Fh+yvJGYqE for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA81C3A6C8A for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.11] ((unknown) [62.3.217.253]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:22:46 +0100 X-SMTP-Protocol-Errors: NORDNS Message-ID: <4817130D.2030208@isode.com> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:22:37 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: "Ganguly, Gopa \(Gopa\)" References: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BAED@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> <4810B9B2.1060202@isode.com> <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BCA0@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <99DF294B6B934248A9B429C7E6704AED0141BCA0@ILEXC3U02.ndc.lucent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) wrote: >The message expiration is indicated by an "Expired" flag. The system >only sets the flag, and does not automatically delete the message -- >giving subscribers a "chance" to resave it. > >Alternately, the INTERNALDATE could also be used by the client. But >there is no message annotation. > >Either way, the client knows of the expiry, without downloading the >entire message. The question is, can we resave the message but avoid >methods which will need the message to be downloaded, before it is >resaved. > >Your suggestion to use: APPEND CATENATE would work. >Since in this case, the server doing the APPEND is also the server in >the IMAP-URL, we may not need URLAUTH. > > From what you've described a much better way is just to clear the expiration flag. This would minimize traffic and would be the proper IMAP use. >Thanks >Gopa > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:48 PM >To: Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) >Cc: lemonade@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [lemonade] Message re-save > >Ganguly, Gopa (Gopa) wrote: > > > >>Hi, >> >> >> >Hi, > > > >>We are currently trying to come up with an efficient way to resave >>voicemail messages that are near or at expiry. >> >> >> >How message expiration is stored in the message store? >Is it derived from message's INTERNALDATE, stored as a message >annotation, ...? > > > >>The client could FETCH the message, and then turn around and APPEND it >> >> > > > >>to the mailbox -- but that would mean an inefficient roundtrip for the >> >> > > > >>audio data in the message. >> >>Has anyone in this group looked into this scenario, or has any >>suggestions? >> >> >> >If you need to use APPEND, then you can use IMAP CATENATE Extension (RFC > >4469) together with IMAP URLAUTH Extension (RFC 4467). >But the exact answer to your question depends on your answer about how >message expiration is stored. > >Regards, >Alexey > > > > _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade Supplemental Web Site: http://www.standardstrack.com/ietf/lemonade