From nobody Sun Sep 14 18:41:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F4A1A0481; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 18:41:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.064 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.064 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SpSeKT3aLfw1; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 18:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7FD11A047E; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 18:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJK28617; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 01:41:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.37) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 02:41:41 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:41:34 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Benoit Claise , "time@ietf.org" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Time] Mailing list name change request: from TIME to LIME Thread-Index: AQHPyPoS6duZ5hQUNU6uUEZ7ikwqGJwBeByw Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 01:41:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54099A2E.2040102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54099A2E.2040102@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/OoPBqAz8WVhGLjSSv2-B8atGGGA Cc: "ops-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] [Time] Mailing list name change request: from TIME to LIME X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 01:41:45 -0000 SGksDQpUYWxraW5nIHdpdGggdG9vbHMgcGVvcGxlLCBNYWlsbWFuIGRvZXMgbm90IHN1cHBvcnQg bGlzdCBuYW1lIGNoYW5nZXMuDQpTbyB0b29scyBwZW9wbGUgaGVscCB1cyBjcmVhdGUgYSBuZXcg bGlzdCBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnIHRoYXQgaXMgc3VwcG9zZWQgdG8gcmVwbGFjZSB0aW1lQGlldGYu b3JnLg0KQWxsIHBlb3BsZSBzdWJzY3JpYmVkIHRvIFRJTUUgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGF1dG9tYXRpY2Fs bHkgc3Vic2NyaWJlZCB0byBMSU1FLg0KDQpXZSB3aWxsIHNlZSBob3cgdG8gbW92ZSBkaXNjdXNz aW9uIHRvIHRoZSBuZXcgbGlzdCBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnLiBUaGFua3MhDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMhDQot UWluDQotLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCreivP7IyzogVGltZSBbbWFpbHRvOnRpbWUtYm91bmNl c0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlDQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAxNMTqOdTCNcjVIDE5 OjExDQrK1bz+yMs6IHRpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCrOty806IG9wcy1hZHNAdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcN Ctb3zOI6IFtUaW1lXSBNYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgbmFtZSBjaGFuZ2UgcmVxdWVzdDogZnJvbSBUSU1F IHRvIExJTUUNCg0KRGVhciBhbGwsDQoNCkJhc2VkIG9uIHRoZSBmZWVkYmFjayByZWNlaXZlZCBk dXJpbmcgdGhlIGxhc3QgSUVURiBtZWV0aW5nLCB0aGUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IG5hbWUgaGFzIGJl ZW4gY29uZnVzaW5nLg0KQSBmZXcgTlRQLWludGVyZXN0ZWQgcGVvcGxlIHNob3dlZCB1cCBpbiBv dXIgbWVldGluZ3MuLi4gYW5kIHdoZXJlIGRpc2FwcG9pbnRlZCA6LSkNCg0KSSBqdXN0IGFwcHJv dmVkIHRoZSBuYW1lIGNoYW5nZSBmcm9tIFRJTUUgdG8gTElNRTogTGF5ZXIgSW5kZXBlbmRlbnQg T0FNIE1hbmFnZW1lbnQgaW4gdGhlIG11bHRpLWxheWVyIGVudmlyb25tZW50IChMSU1FKS4NCg0K QWxsIHBlb3BsZSBzdWJzY3JpYmVkIHRvIFRJTUUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGF1dG9tYXRpY2FsbHkgc3Vi c2NyaWJlZCB0byBMSU1FLg0KV2UgYWRkZWQgYSBzcGVjaWFsIG5vdGUgdG8gbW92ZSB0aGUgVElN RSBhcmNoaXZlIHRvIExJTUUuIExldCdzIHNlZSBpZiB0aGlzIGlzIHBvc3NpYmxlOiBJJ2xsIGtl ZXAgeW91IHBvc3RlZC4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywgQmVub2l0DQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpUaW1lIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KVGltZUBpZXRm Lm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby90aW1lDQo= From nobody Mon Sep 15 02:01:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4E31A02ED; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 02:01:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.064 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.064 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyaQGj9uBl5p; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 02:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89BBE1A0240; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 02:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJK63386; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:01:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 10:01:05 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:01:01 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" , "time@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Welcome to the "Lime" mailing list Thread-Index: AQHPzq/jqyeEoQPPP0aoqrU/IALEpJwB5piQ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:01:00 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/A7CJNlPZ3l-mIM7-F-G0_7InSh0 Cc: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [Lime] Welcome to the "Lime" mailing list X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:01:10 -0000 SGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgVVJMIGZvciB0aGUgbmV3IExheWVyIEluZGVwZW5kZW50IE9BTSBNYW5hZ2Vt ZW50IGluIHRoZSBNdWx0aS1MYXllciBFbnZpcm9ubWVudCAoTElNRSkgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBsaXN0 LA0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saW1lDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMh DQotUWluDQotLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCreivP7IyzogTGltZSBbbWFpbHRvOmxpbWUtYm91 bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBsaW1lLXJlcXVlc3RAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE0 xOo51MIxM8jVIDE6MzUNCsrVvP7IyzogDQrW98ziOiBXZWxjb21lIHRvIHRoZSAiTGltZSIgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQoNCldlbGNvbWUgdG8gdGhlIExpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0ISBX ZWxjb21lIHRvIHRoZSBMYXllciBJbmRlcGVuZGVudCBPQU0gTWFuYWdlbWVudCBpbiB0aGUgTXVs dGktTGF5ZXIgRW52aXJvbm1lbnQgKExJTUUpIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gbGlzdC4NCg0KDQpUbyBwb3N0 IHRvIHRoaXMgbGlzdCwgc2VuZCB5b3VyIG1lc3NhZ2UgdG86DQoNCiAgbGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K DQpHZW5lcmFsIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGFib3V0IHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgaXMgYXQ6DQoNCiAg aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saW1lDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Sep 15 17:23:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0E81A7033; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kykXRXEZzse; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328D51A6F52; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement List X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.6.2.p6 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140915203021.11135.65604.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:30:21 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/bf6OstWNQ1qNaCz8aVC_5vBFpro X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:22:59 -0700 Cc: bclaise@cisco.com, lime@ietf.org, bill.wu@huawei.com Subject: [Lime] New Non-WG Mailing List: Lime -- Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment (LIME) discussion list. X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:30:22 -0000 A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. List address: lime@ietf.org Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/maillist.html To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime Purpose: The basic concepts of Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) and the functional roles in monitoring and diagnosing the behavior of telecommunications networks have been long term studied at the Layer 1&2 & Layer 3 levels. The current practice is that many technologies and layers have their own OAM protocols. Today we see a large number of layer1/2/3 OAM protocols being well developed and some of them being successfully deployed, but how these OAM protocols in each layer can be applied to overlay networks(e.g.,NVO3,SFC,EVPN Overlay network) that use different various encapsulation protocols(e.g.,VXLAN, NVGRE, GENEVE) to provide better OAM visibility is still a challenging Issue. When operating networks with more than one technology in the overlay network, maintenance and troubleshooting are achieved per technology and per layer, operation process can be very cumbersome since OAM is not defined to cross layer boundaries in the data plane. Another challenge is presented by use of different technologies at different part of the network and corresponding OAM on the same layer of adjacent network domains. Stitching different OAM using different encapsulation methods at the same layer of adjacent network domains is often not defined and left to proprietary solutions. For additional information, please contact the list administrators. From nobody Tue Sep 16 06:18:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC501A0327 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:18:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n0kUiqr4joxG for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22f.google.com (mail-ie0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D6BE1A06EF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f175.google.com with SMTP id at20so6387442iec.34 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vhYCxDuA37DvTonOeKh8KDgN7qjmI22l/f3bPTwUoXo=; b=U6hWhBhFXiN1+av/4JO7lhZgosBho1ZbeC4Te+y+BmoQCVdCwq/vRF12bZtggJwW95 DFxUn8xw8dMRNUl3ct62w5w68HQR9p+DoWN94qPPGDBPMOJy/rnL68yOVQuh6/aD/ET9 XjdmNBmqzUS76gXDqkSBeSiAtK+sG6kh9j4Oj5mTTNF+G/58cI9O5f113jCpvVd2+/15 VleZktB8se5GuhN8sW0swPjHKKkd9vUS18wGFrMGosd+QimDV1XhC2Zx1lF7/yw3qCp0 5yfqLpJVxUEXRjQqurNxGVl/D/+r3FB/2YAygyW09eieoQ9yf5++abtDPS+KJELWYG2B DMbQ== X-Received: by 10.50.18.69 with SMTP id u5mr30060769igd.19.1410873510688; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (dsl-173-206-36-220.tor.primus.ca. [173.206.36.220]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p5sm1375349iga.5.2014.09.16.06.18.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <541838A6.2090009@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:18:30 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIME References: <20140916130702.5804.43639.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140916130702.5804.43639.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140916130702.5804.43639.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Ma0aEXV6BF_qyUKOVJZ_U3nF2Tc Subject: [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:18:39 -0000 Just the editorial cleanup of section 6 that needed doing. Tom Taylkor -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:07:02 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Tom Taylor , Qin Wu , Mishael Wexler , T. Taylor , Mishael Wexler , Qin Wu A new version of I-D, draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt has been successfully submitted by T. Taylor and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps Revision: 01 Title: Problem Statement for Layer and Technology Independent OAM in a Multi- Layer Environment Document date: 2014-09-16 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 16 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01 Abstract: Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) mechanisms are critical building blocks in network operations. They used for service fulfillment assurance, and for service diagnosis, troubleshooting, and repair. The current practice is that many technologies rely on their own OAM protocols and procedures that are exclusive to a given layer. At present, there is little consolidation of OAM in the management plane or well-documented inter-layer OAM operation. Vendors and operators dedicate significant resources and effort through the whole OAM life-cycle each time a new technology is introduced. This is exacerbated when dealing with integration of OAM into overlay networks, which require better OAM visibility since there is no method to exchange OAM information between overlay and underlay. This document analyzes the problem space for multi-layer OAM in the management plane with a focus on layer and technology independent OAM management considerations. It concludes that an attempt to define an architecture for consolidated management should be undertaken, and if this attempt satisfies key objectives, a gap analysis and a program of standardization should follow. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Tue Sep 16 06:39:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0220B1A0334 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:39:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnUwpN75jZx5 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B99251A071D for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s8GDdAj4014246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:39:10 GMT Received: from DEMUHTC004.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.35]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s8GDdAIm032357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Sep 2014 15:39:10 +0200 Received: from DEMUHTC013.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.44) by DEMUHTC004.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 15:39:09 +0200 Received: from DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net ([169.254.5.128]) by DEMUHTC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.44]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 15:39:09 +0200 From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: ext Tom Taylor , LIME Thread-Topic: Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHP0bC/eEIHcUzHPEic5ycI7OoUfJwDw2OQ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:39:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140916130702.5804.43639.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <541838A6.2090009@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <541838A6.2090009@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.124] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 3423 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1410874750-0000437E-265C0FA6/0/0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/j13irST2jiYqZuIsmBjyEX1dxT0 Subject: [Lime] Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:39:17 -0000 Can anybody explain the difference between LIME and TIME? Thanks. Mehmet=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Tom Taylor > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 3:18 PM > To: LIME > Subject: [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg- > multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt >=20 > Just the editorial cleanup of section 6 that needed doing. >=20 > Tom Taylkor >=20 >=20 > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:07:02 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Tom Taylor , Qin Wu > , > Mishael Wexler , T. Taylor > , Mishael Wexler > , > Qin Wu >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by T. Taylor and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps > Revision: 01 > Title: Problem Statement for Layer and Technology > Independent OAM in a > Multi- Layer Environment > Document date: 2014-09-16 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer- > oam-ps-01.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam- > ps/ > Htmlized: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01 > Diff: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam- > ps-01 >=20 > Abstract: > Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) mechanisms are > critical building blocks in network operations. They used for > service fulfillment assurance, and for service diagnosis, > troubleshooting, and repair. The current practice is that many > technologies rely on their own OAM protocols and procedures that > are > exclusive to a given layer. >=20 > At present, there is little consolidation of OAM in the management > plane or well-documented inter-layer OAM operation. Vendors and > operators dedicate significant resources and effort through the > whole > OAM life-cycle each time a new technology is introduced. This is > exacerbated when dealing with integration of OAM into overlay > networks, which require better OAM visibility since there is no > method to exchange OAM information between overlay and underlay. >=20 > This document analyzes the problem space for multi-layer OAM in the > management plane with a focus on layer and technology independent > OAM > management considerations. It concludes that an attempt to define > an > architecture for consolidated management should be undertaken, and > if > this attempt satisfies key objectives, a gap analysis and a program > of standardization should follow. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Tue Sep 16 06:40:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80E31A0515 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:40:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8w8KvGHEh4d for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49F2D1A0334 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuEMAOw8GFTGmAcV/2dsb2JhbABggmojU1MEBLNtAQEBAQEBBpZ2HQqHTgGBExYBAXiEAwEBAQEDAQEBDygxAwkOBAIBCA0EAQIBAQELFAUEByEGCxQDBggCBAESCAEQCYgIAxEBBwWaWJlVDYcBAReFfIcigXw4BoMogR0FkU2EN4I9gjgBg2+GEYcShkKCG4FDbAGBR4ECAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,534,1406606400"; d="scan'208";a="84942346" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest-exch.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.21]) by p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 16 Sep 2014 09:40:45 -0400 X-OutboundMail_SMTP: 1 Received: from unknown (HELO AZ-FFEXHC03.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.58.13]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 16 Sep 2014 09:40:45 -0400 Received: from AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com ([fe80::6db7:b0af:8480:c126]) by AZ-FFEXHC03.global.avaya.com ([135.64.58.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:40:43 -0400 From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" , ext Tom Taylor , LIME Thread-Topic: [Lime] Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHP0bOgdqXl38YlzUmwxc67iVkJ85wDw/aQ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:40:43 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89D4D8@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: <20140916130702.5804.43639.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <541838A6.2090009@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.46] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/El4Vwx5OhyKH7KP3rMb1Hm4Yisc Subject: Re: [Lime] Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:40:49 -0000 The TIME list was migrated to LIME in order to avoid the NTP experts to los= e orientation.=20 Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet > (NSN - DE/Munich) > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 4:39 PM > To: ext Tom Taylor; LIME > Subject: [Lime] Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: Fwd: New Version > Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt >=20 > Can anybody explain the difference between LIME and TIME? > Thanks. >=20 > Mehmet >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Tom Taylor > > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 3:18 PM > > To: LIME > > Subject: [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg- > > multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt > > > > Just the editorial cleanup of section 6 that needed doing. > > > > Tom Taylkor > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt > > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:07:02 -0700 > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > To: Tom Taylor , Qin Wu > > , Mishael Wexler , > T. > > Taylor , Mishael Wexler > > , Qin Wu > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt > > has been successfully submitted by T. Taylor and posted to the IETF > > repository. > > > > Name: draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps > > Revision: 01 > > Title: Problem Statement for Layer and Technology > > Independent OAM in a > > Multi- Layer Environment > > Document date: 2014-09-16 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 16 > > URL: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer- > > oam-ps-01.txt > > Status: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam- > > ps/ > > Htmlized: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01 > > Diff: > > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam- > > ps-01 > > > > Abstract: > > Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) mechanisms are > > critical building blocks in network operations. They used for > > service fulfillment assurance, and for service diagnosis, > > troubleshooting, and repair. The current practice is that many > > technologies rely on their own OAM protocols and procedures that > > are > > exclusive to a given layer. > > > > At present, there is little consolidation of OAM in the management > > plane or well-documented inter-layer OAM operation. Vendors and > > operators dedicate significant resources and effort through the > > whole > > OAM life-cycle each time a new technology is introduced. This is > > exacerbated when dealing with integration of OAM into overlay > > networks, which require better OAM visibility since there is no > > method to exchange OAM information between overlay and underlay. > > > > This document analyzes the problem space for multi-layer OAM in the > > management plane with a focus on layer and technology independent > > OAM > > management considerations. It concludes that an attempt to define > > an > > architecture for consolidated management should be undertaken, and > > if > > this attempt satisfies key objectives, a gap analysis and a program > > of standardization should follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lime mailing list > > Lime@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Tue Sep 16 10:41:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53531A87C6 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R9Lq7SnbS9oB for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D64F1A874B for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:41:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=272; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1410889306; x=1412098906; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=dfUS6HPOa9yUUsf7AWKyrX6dijfVSDUpdJ9SVW+4wxI=; b=YPeSqoajEPobV4jTdlcEnmop11NzRo65BqH4mNmpZOy1HiWhsdPtFLpS RThTiEhzNBKnwt5nJVRH920QZSwC8eTMVuqEgGgMdGm7MQqWk6JHl0J6S b1QNxZaLwtsAg++ToayLoi1N+V3AzfOPZtNNZECWstrnGdXy9ANgAEXQ1 o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiwJAPp1GFStJA2D/2dsb2JhbABgKIJl0l0WAXmEQjYKPRYYAwIBAgFYCAEBiDqWZ6U5GI9ohDUBBJhBhEmHSI19g2A7gnkBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,535,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="352611490" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Sep 2014 17:41:45 +0000 Received: from [10.82.255.195] (rtp-vpn6-1980.cisco.com [10.82.255.195]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8GHficf004448 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 17:41:44 GMT Message-ID: <541813CE.7070204@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:41:18 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lime@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Y7kuPMJN8KVgX_n81r-KmiQ3qVs Subject: [Lime] TIME moved to LIME: TIME mailing list now closed X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 17:41:46 -0000 Dear all, As you probably know, the TIME mailing list has been transitioned to LIME. All people subscribed to TIME have been automatically subscribed to LIME. In order to avoid any confusion, I just requested the TIME mailing list to be closed. Regards, Benoit From nobody Tue Sep 16 10:41:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51FE1A8790 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 76SzRGgcL5op for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75C081A874B for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2869; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1410889307; x=1412098907; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject; bh=pU0qw8pCGcdBLMrcWb2W6BOJ9n+XjZ/QM/DVBpF5vrk=; b=aufRB8HG/mhIUfPDT6d2XnkLXVo64kikJ3AhqFZTZeMqvpPuYC6JPSqk 3rWqd3X5+jckHf1JynoGq1TN4PqbHwE7mXqGIDAJbk4ZqO93rp9KPoydw biN6TF4mtihiSszyuvugmcjcVSySR4v90YKrf+EmJcaL78AjY0F9qiMPm c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AogLAL11GFStJA2H/2dsb2JhbABgKIJligHIXBYBeYR4CiABHBYYAwIBAgFYCAEBiDqWZaU5GI5pEQFthDUFmEGESYdIjX2DYDuBPoE7AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,535,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="355723408" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Sep 2014 17:41:47 +0000 Received: from [10.82.255.195] (rtp-vpn6-1980.cisco.com [10.82.255.195]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8GHfkHi018353 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 17:41:46 GMT Message-ID: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:58:12 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lime@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030600060107070900080300" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/GThbSmXiF3vr6r4VeFrtBKHYv4Y Subject: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 17:41:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030600060107070900080300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to read the archives). As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situation. During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative. Here is what we concluded: 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense. 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter proposal. Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs) --------------030600060107070900080300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to read the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situation.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.
2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter proposal.

Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)


--------------030600060107070900080300-- From nobody Tue Sep 16 23:13:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7EB1A6F84 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jc6PpdMEayeY for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 501851A6F80 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMR50267; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:36:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:36:07 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:36:03 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: LIME Thread-Topic: [Time] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison to IETF on YANG Service OAM models" Thread-Index: AQHPyz0w3Tz+hCcPY0ei/vkmJvN+mZv9DPwggAOtJ3D///P/AIAD+2AQ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:36:03 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Tw_VMGRf9sGEvspDNtIvadTIkO0 Subject: Re: [Lime] [Time] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison to IETF on YANG Service OAM models" X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on t= he Charter proposal, we call for a design team to write the Charter proposa= l after a few internal discussions.

 

Here is the initial version = of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Manage= ment in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------

Operations, Administration, = and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for ne= twork management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

    Examples = of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring<= /o:p>

    tools use= d for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    managemen= t tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

    network, = and network provisioning tools.

 

    Examples = of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning=

    tools.

 

    Examples = of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, lo= opback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

    monitor a= nd diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An operator's network is mad= e up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instanc= e, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 = [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network tec= hnologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault managem= ent and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology = and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specifi= c management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordi= nation between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The li= mited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:<= o:p>

-- suppress large numbers of= unnecessary alarms and notifications

    related t= o defects and failures

-- quickly identify root cau= ses

-- monitor performance on an= end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects,= faults and network failures between the

    different= layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

    localizat= ion and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navig= ate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management int= erface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

 

There is now a move afoot to= replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexi= ble and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuratio= n as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations = management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces tha= t are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present s= et.

 

The objective of the LIME in= itiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentat= ion for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and = technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These= guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting,= performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer = 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

 

(1) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates with a local management function.=

 

The first case takes priorit= y.

 

Development of one or more m= anagement information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary t= o move the work forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but = potentially within subsequent scope:

  -- development of any= YANG modules.

  -- development of a s= olution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the= managed elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interes= ted in the mutual discovery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet For= um work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were vari= ous discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

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dA0KICAtLSBNZXRybyBFdGhlcm5ldCBGb3J1bSB3b3JrIG9uIC4uLg0K --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E7E23nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Tue Sep 16 23:13:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6371A0171 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:34:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1782gg4LNyYk for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1194A1A005C for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJN43581; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 01:34:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:34:11 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:34:08 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAK1qA= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 01:34:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN 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text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on t= he Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few interna= l discussions.

 

Here is the initial version = of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Manage= ment in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------

Operations, Administration, = and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for ne= twork management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

    Examples = of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring<= /o:p>

    tools use= d for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    managemen= t tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

    network, = and network provisioning tools.

 

    Examples = of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning=

    tools.

 

    Examples = of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, lo= opback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

    monitor a= nd diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An operator's network is mad= e up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instanc= e, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 = [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network tec= hnologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault managem= ent and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology = and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specifi= c management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordi= nation between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The li= mited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:<= o:p>

-- suppress large numbers of= unnecessary alarms and notifications

    related t= o defects and failures

-- quickly identify root cau= ses

-- monitor performance on an= end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects,= faults and network failures between the

    different= layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

    localizat= ion and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navig= ate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management int= erface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

 

There is now a move afoot to= replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexi= ble and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuratio= n as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations = management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces tha= t are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present s= et.

 

The objective of the LIME in= itiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentat= ion for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and = technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These= guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting,= performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer = 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

 

(1) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates with a local management function.=

 

The first case takes priorit= y.

 

Development of one or more m= anagement information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary t= o move the work forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but = potentially within subsequent scope:

  -- development of any= YANG modules.

  -- development of a s= olution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the= managed elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interes= ted in the mutual discovery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet For= um work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

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(No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1066C1A00D8 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJN46511; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:30:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:30:09 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:30:01 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" , ext Tom Taylor , LIME Thread-Topic: [Lime] Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHP0bOjmCTf+ZrSjEGkEJQawTu6VpwDPhuAgAFZ77A= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:30:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140916130702.5804.43639.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <541838A6.2090009@gmail.com> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89D4D8@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89D4D8@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/8fODuGJyZ6-Ee3CsrxKAEUUWfkk Subject: Re: [Lime] Diff between LIME and TIME WAS:RE: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-01.txt X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBCC01A0137 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:35:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RdG7MA-4tzXq for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C185D1A010A for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJN46777; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:35:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:35:06 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:35:00 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: LIME Thread-Topic: [Time] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison to IETF on YANG Service OAM models" Thread-Index: AQHPyz0w3Tz+hCcPY0ei/vkmJvN+mZv9DPwggAOtJ3CAA+8TAA== Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:35:00 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E7F70nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/pHHYOMCsVyOO1X9JUJ_7OitUdZc Subject: Re: [Lime] [Time] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "Liaison to IETF on YANG Service OAM models" X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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AkILAKx1GVSHCzIm/2dsb2JhbABWCoJHIyNTVwSCerFmBpwHARl+FgEBeIQDAQEBAQMSG0ELEAIBBgINAQMEAQELFgcFAgIwFAkIAgQBDQUIEweIHAGLV5F2ikkIlXgBF4V8iG0GBAcBHxYbBgGCdDqBHQWGH4kYghaGdIw6jVWDXmyBBgkXIoECAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.04,540,1406606400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="72507974" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast-smtpauth.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.38]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 17 Sep 2014 07:54:51 -0400 X-OutboundMail_SMTP: 1 Received: from unknown (HELO AZ-FFEXHC01.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.58.11]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 17 Sep 2014 07:54:50 -0400 Received: from AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com ([fe80::6db7:b0af:8480:c126]) by AZ-FFEXHC01.global.avaya.com ([135.64.58.11]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:54:49 +0200 From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0j6CFWzBEDkixkqs+hZ4MtvyQZwFNK0Q Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:54:49 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89E644@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.46] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89E644AZFFEXMB04globa_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/-30lunO8dGIcq4kPq6B7i5fOK9g Cc: Tom Taylor Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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I am interested in this w= ork and glad to help.

 <= /p>

See a few comments insert= ed.

 <= /p>

Regards,

 <= /p>

Dan

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 4:34 AM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, = we design team write a Charter proposal after a few interna= l discussions.

 

Here is the initial version of proposed charter f= or discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Lay= er Environment (LIME)

-------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------

Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM)= is a general term that refers to tools created for network management.&nbs= p; Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

DR= : actually 6291 does not provide such a definition of the =A1=AEgeneral ter= m=A1=AF.

 

    Examples of tools related to &= quot;operations" are performance monitoring

    tools used for service level a= greement (SLA) measurement, fault

    management tools used to monit= or the health of nodes and links in the

    network, and network provision= ing tools.

 

    Examples of "administrati= on" tools are network discovery and planning

    tools.

 

    Examples of "maintenance&= quot; tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, loopback, link trace, a= nd other tools that can be used to

    monitor and diagnose failures = in a network or network element.

 

 

 

An operator's network is made up of layers -- con= sisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instance, but made more comp= lex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking = along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as= MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

DR= : We are in the IETF, so I would rather use the IETF terminology rather tha= n the OSI one.

 

 

Traditionally, fault management and path maintena= nce have been achieved through a series of technology and layer specific OA= M protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfac= es. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination between them= and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited scope of of e= ach management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms a= nd notifications

    related to defects and failure= s

-- quickly identify root causes

-- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects, faults and network f= ailures between the

    different layers to improve ef= ficiency of defect and fault

    localization and provide bette= r OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the peculiarities= of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer,= then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

 

There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB= modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible th= an SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as informat= ion retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more u= niform fashion and creating management interfaces that are more friendly to= a centralized management function than the present set.

 

DR= : SNMP is the protocol, better say SMI MIB modules. The move is however bro= ader and different, as it tends to replace SNMP/SMI by NETCONF/YANG for con= figuration operations. It does not necessarily recommends using YANG for all purposes, and certainly not =A1=AEreplace MI= B modules with YANG modules=A1=AF. We need some more accurate wording.

&n= bsp;

The objective of the LIME initiative is to encour= age consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mecha= nisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will= do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These guidelines will cov= er OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting, performance, securi= ty) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but= also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

 

(1) where the centralized management function com= municates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized management function com= municates with a local management function.

 

The first case takes priority.

 

DR= : what exactly this prioritization means? (1) and when finished (2)? (1) in= parallel with (2) but we estimate (2) will take longer time? As a suggesti= on and for better focus maybe it would be better to start with (1) and move (2) into the =A1=AEout of scope initi= ally=A1=AF category

 

Development of one or more management information= models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forwa= rd.

 

Out of scope initially, but potentially within su= bsequent scope:

  -- development of any YANG modules.

  -- development of a solution for mutual di= scovery of the centralized management function and the managed elements or = local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual dis= covery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.or= g] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Sit= uation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with differ= ent audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working= on a charter proposal.

Regards, Joel and Ben= oit (OPS ADs)

--_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89E644AZFFEXMB04globa_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 05:55:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0711A030C for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 05:55:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yz04go3NOiYI for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 05:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E8F51A01CA for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMS10202; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:55:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:55:26 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:55:18 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAK1qCAACfDgIAAjdTQ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:55:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89E644@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C89E644@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E922Bnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/7pxCiP0CRllzbAMvpHDZ47VEVtM Cc: Tom Taylor Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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Hi, Dan:

Thanks for= valuable comments, see my reply inline.

 = ;

Regards!

-Qin<= /o:p>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C217=C8=D5 19:55
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Tom Taylor
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

I am inter= ested in this work and glad to help.

 = ;

See a few = comments inserted.

 = ;

Regards,

 = ;

Dan

 = ;

 = ;

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 4:34 AM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, = all

Base= d on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few internal discussio= ns.

 

Here= is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See= below or attached).

 

Laye= r Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------

Oper= ations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers= to tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

&n= bsp;

DR: act= ually 6291 does not provide such a definition of the =A1=AEgeneral term=A1= =AF.

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: = Correct, RFC6291 only provides a definition of the acronym =A1=B0OAM=A1=B1.=

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of tools related to "operations" are perf= ormance monitoring

&nbs= p;   tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fa= ult

&nbs= p;   management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and lin= ks in the

&nbs= p;   network, and network provisioning tools.

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of "administration" tools are network dis= covery and planning

&nbs= p;   tools.

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementation= s of connectivity

&nbs= p;   check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be use= d to

&nbs= p;   monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network elemen= t.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

 

An o= perator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 throug= h 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular l= ayer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network techn= ologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

&n= bsp;

DR: We = are in the IETF, so I would rather use the IETF terminology rather than the= OSI one.

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: = Yes, I think we can refer to RFC 1122 for communication protocol layer or u= se link layer, network layer, service layer.

 

Trad= itionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through= a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter have = been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination= between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited = scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- s= uppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications

&nbs= p;   related to defects and failures

-- q= uickly identify root causes

-- m= onitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- c= orrelate status defects, faults and network failures between the=

&nbs= p;   different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

&nbs= p;   localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has= been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the results= together into a coherent picture.

 

Ther= e is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules ins= tead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval= . This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations= management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces th= at are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present set.

&n= bsp;

DR: SNM= P is the protocol, better say SMI MIB modules. The move is however broader = and different, as it tends to replace SNMP/SMI by NETCONF/YANG for configuration operations. It does not necessarily recommends using YAN= G for all purposes, and certainly not =A1=AEreplace MIB modules with YANG m= odules=A1=AF. We need some more accurate wording.

&n= bsp;

[Qin]:A= gree.

 <= o:p>

The = objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, = reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this by p= reparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial tas= k. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, acc= ounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but al= so consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be cons= idered:

 

(1) = where the centralized management function communicates directly with the ma= naged elements;

 

(2) = where the centralized management function communicates with a local managem= ent function.

 

The = first case takes priority.

&n= bsp;

DR: wha= t exactly this prioritization means? (1) and when finished (2)? (1) in para= llel with (2) but we estimate (2) will take longer time?

As a su= ggestion and for better focus maybe it would be better to start with (1) an= d move (2) into the =A1=AEout of scope initially=A1=AF category<= /span>

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

[Qin]: = Yes, more interfaces need to be defined for (2). if the local management fu= nction is legacy function, it may more rely on future evolution of legacy device.

But (2)= seems to me is a distributed architecture design which can provide a good = scalability.

&n= bsp;

Deve= lopment of one or more management information models may be undertaken if i= t is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

 

Out = of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:

&nbs= p; -- development of any YANG modules.

&nbs= p; -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized man= agement function and the managed elements or local managers.

 

Rela= ted work:

&nbs= p; -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect

&nbs= p; -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E922Bnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 06:18:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5711A02D9 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:18:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xXXHTcMpefdB for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C821A00B2 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO07220; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:18:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:18:42 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 21:18:39 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "stbryant@cisco.com" , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAcT4CAAK7w0A== Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:18:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <541963D7.9030409@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <541963D7.9030409@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E924Ankgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/JYBevbs0eHJny02l5KSBgsWthmE Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C217=C8=D5 18:35
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; Mishael Wexler; Jouni; huubatwork@gmail.com= ; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; Tom Taylor; Tom Herbert; = mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Daniel King
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

On 17/09/2014 02:11, Qin Wu wro= te:

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on t= he Charter proposal, we call for a design team to write the Charter proposa= l after a few internal discussions.


SB> I volunteer to help.

=
    Examples of "administration" tools are network= discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing= , or of an application layer broker.

=
SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration?

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application pr= otocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of admini= stration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

=
configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made i= t very difficult to:

SB> of of (typo)

[Qin]: Thanks.

=
SB> Shouldn't the instantiation of these models in a particular protocol= be explicitly out of scope?

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.

SB> Agree

2. It is desirable to have an unified view of= OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and dete= ct the faulty element in the network path

SB> Hopefully we can achieve this, but we = need to be clear that this should not be a constraint on new protocols, i.e= . if we miss something that a new protocol needs, then the model has to be improved.

[Qin]: Yes, if we can ge= t generic OAM management model, generic model should not put constraint on new protocols, but generic model doesn=A1=AFt need to change= d each time there is something that a new protocol needs. What we can do is= to define Specific OAM technology models that is augmented from  gene= ric model i.e.,  Specific OAM technology model extends generic model to support technology specific feature.

 
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.

SB> Yes, subject to (2)<= /p>

4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a log= ical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction

SB> Agree

5. A set of guidelines for future OAM develop= ments would be welcome for consistency sake

SB> Agree

- Stewart

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E924Ankgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 06:32:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291EE1A00B2 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NDGqALSoy2i5 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B3831A0095 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=15524; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1410960750; x=1412170350; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version:to:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=4IYpDKPBQ4VhoI0ngp7BtvXg838z6HJjGChxMwSK5bA=; b=Q0ORQCVxSSEFoiq1RU3KlzuxhVR1cve/+nqrqWzRG45DndN2UBZO+Ul7 BSSQTQkdjCrVHJIp75h5IKpZqt0yGOzMWDnkN5ixPBsvt6hfHJ4mlFXdD dATAap+pmNNmkknvrdTFn1eHIGllOpt61y7u5QOSjK9KO1JyUzksNF++V w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,540,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="176470544" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Sep 2014 13:32:27 +0000 Received: from [64.103.108.106] (dhcp-bdlk10-data-vlan301-64-103-108-106.cisco.com [64.103.108.106]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8HDWRHs007112; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:32:27 GMT Message-ID: <54198D6B.9060802@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:32:27 +0100 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <541963D7.9030409@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050805020402070807030103" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/1qyBUpPUmDOMavo-2yAJHELlDeo Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:32:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050805020402070807030103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 17/09/2014 14:18, Qin Wu wrote: > > *·¢ ¼þÈË:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com] > *·¢ ËÍʱ¼ä:*2014Äê9ÔÂ17ÈÕ18:35 > *ÊÕ¼þÈË:*Qin Wu; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > *³­ËÍ:*Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; Mishael Wexler; Jouni; > huubatwork@gmail.com; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; > Tom Taylor; Tom Herbert; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Daniel King > *Ö÷Ìâ:*Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 > > On 17/09/2014 02:11, Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, all > > Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a > design team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal > discussions. > > > SB> I volunteer to help. > > > Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning > tools. > > SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of > routing, or of an application layer broker. > > > SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? > > [Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application protocol provide a > good functionality for network discovery. > > Also I agree configuration is a good example of administration. Before > configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be > configured and where it is. > Doesn't this come from a network management database, or in these modern times the orchestrator. Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of full manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discovery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network. - Stewart > > > configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has > made it very difficult to: > > SB> of of (typo) > > [Qin]: Thanks. > > > SB> Shouldn't the instantiation of these models in a particular > protocol be explicitly out of scope? > > Here is what we concluded: > 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. > > SB> Agree > > 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each > layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty > element in the network path > > SB> Hopefully we can achieve this, but we need to be clear that this > should not be a constraint on new protocols, i.e. if we miss something > that a new protocol needs, then the model has to be improved. > > [Qin]: Yes, if we can get generic OAM management model, generic model > should not put constraint on new protocols, but generic model doesn¡¯t > need to changed each time there is something that a new protocol > needs. What we can do is to define Specific OAM technology models that > is augmented from generic model i.e., Specific OAM technology model > extends generic model to support technology specific feature. > > > 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM > mechanisms makes sense. > > SB> Yes, subject to (2) > > 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that > there are already some efforts in that direction > > SB> Agree > > 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome > for consistency sake > > SB> Agree > > - Stewart > -- For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html --------------050805020402070807030103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 17/09/2014 14:18, Qin Wu wrote:

·¢ ¼þÈË: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
·¢ ËÍʱ¼ä: 2014Äê9ÔÂ17ÈÕ 18:35
ÊÕ¼þÈË: Qin Wu; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
³­ËÍ: Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; Mishael Wexler; Jouni; huubatwork@gmail.com; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; Tom Taylor; Tom Herbert; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Daniel King
Ö÷Ìâ: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

On 17/09/2014 02:11, Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.


SB> I volunteer to help.


    Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing, or of an application layer broker.


SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration?

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application protocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of administration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

Doesn't this come from a network management database, or in these modern times the orchestrator.

Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of full manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discovery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network.

- Stewart


configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:

SB> of of (typo)

[Qin]: Thanks.


SB> Shouldn't the instantiation of these models in a particular protocol be explicitly out of scope?

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.

SB> Agree

2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path

SB> Hopefully we can achieve this, but we need to be clear that this should not be a constraint on new protocols, i.e. if we miss something that a new protocol needs, then the model has to be improved.

[Qin]: Yes, if we can get generic OAM management model, generic model should not put constraint on new protocols, but generic model doesn¡¯t need to changed each time there is something that a new protocol needs. What we can do is to define Specific OAM technology models that is augmented from  generic model i.e.,  Specific OAM technology model extends generic model to support technology specific feature.

 
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense.

SB> Yes, subject to (2)

4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction

SB> Agree

5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake

SB> Agree

- Stewart



-- 
For corporate legal information go to:

http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html
--------------050805020402070807030103-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 07:14:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EAB1A045C for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 07:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLYTO=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_35=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAgY3gNHMlep for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 07:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19A7A1A0438 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 07:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id rd3so2293134pab.40 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 07:14:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:subject:message-id:importance:from:to:reply-to:mime-version :content-type; bh=dlomjdVBl5RoAuJBIJp2kHe2lLZWQoREVtlCH0yDrGo=; b=pBotumfZmPjy+HopIulXof3wZtG2/7Ur4Z2MdQ0mLXlJpfAW88meteDQRobkDbBPv4 W27GOUzeM8kLcIQ8BsGXWusHpWBWG3GUkM2t7q13xLwQNazQyXIesJTbHq6Jglf2LdHX WMZTAGmRYytM49jg3jVGq91R3jiZEBhfNJfjvLXJusq3T+io7rMEz0jKYa5L9VymbjWQ Lvg8KXf2ymIe8cFyxbMiULCJ/HUiH2tqRIG1U/5kNqI2mJtPJatbST0m2dsulVkL95wJ 6GVVEb1Ca4P7IYFv/NIWWUwobL+snU564kzzjcuF9P1MCtOLH5FneHXBrJ2NWzMkH/iR 9JnQ== X-Received: by 10.66.66.3 with SMTP id b3mr45227156pat.96.1410963290697; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 07:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.8.100] ([183.212.250.192]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l4sm17067812pbq.49.2014.09.17.07.14.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:18:37 +0800 Message-ID: Importance: normal From: Qin Wu To: stbryant@cisco.com, Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--_com.android.email_114637956187540" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/PyluR-OWGiEwnfwAs_ARJCMSuIM Subject: [Lime] =?utf-8?b?5Zue5aSN77yaIFJlOiAgTElNRSBDaGFydGVyIFByb3Bzb3Nh?= =?utf-8?q?l_v1?= X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Qin Wu List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:14:53 -0000 ----_com.android.email_114637956187540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2VlIGlubGluZS4KCi0tLS0tLS0tIOWOn+Wni+mCruS7tiAtLS0tLS0tLQrlj5Hku7bkurrvvJog U3Rld2FydCBCcnlhbnQgPHN0YnJ5YW50QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gCuaXpeacnzogMjAxNC0wOS0xNyAg MjE6MzIgIChHTVQrMDg6MDApIArmlLbku7bkurrvvJogUWluIFd1IDxiaWxsLnd1QGh1YXdlaS5j b20+LEJlbm9pdCBDbGFpc2UgPGJjbGFpc2VAY2lzY28uY29tPixsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnIArkuLvp opjvvJogUmU6IFtMaW1lXSBMSU1FIENoYXJ0ZXIgUHJvcHNvc2FsIHYxIAogCk9uIDE3LzA5LzIw MTQgMTQ6MTgsIFFpbiBXdSB3cm90ZToK5Y+RIOS7tuS6ujogU3Rld2FydCBCcnlhbnQgW21haWx0 bzpzdGJyeWFudEBjaXNjby5jb21dIArlj5Eg6YCB5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE05bm0OeaciDE35pelIDE4 OjM1CuaUtuS7tuS6ujogUWluIFd1OyBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlOyBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnCuaKhOmA gTogR3JlZ29yeSBNaXJza3k7IFByYWRlZXAgSmFpbjsgTWlzaGFlbCBXZXhsZXI7IEpvdW5pOyBo 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X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/sRWKrs4uKjYbi6UCQVHRpAZ8jko Cc: Tom Taylor Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 7:55 AM
To: Qin Wu; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

I am interested in this w= ork and glad to help.

 <= /p>

See a few comments insert= ed.

 <= /p>

Regards,

 <= /p>

Dan

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Lime [ma= ilto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 4:34 AM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, = we design team write a Charter proposal after a few interna= l discussions.

 

Here is the initial version of proposed charter f= or discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Lay= er Environment (LIME)

-------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------

Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM)= is a general term that refers to tools created for network management.&nbs= p; Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

DR= : actually 6291 does not provide such a definition of the =A1=AEgeneral ter= m=A1=AF.

 

    Examples of tools related to &= quot;operations" are performance monitoring

    tools used for service level a= greement (SLA) measurement, fault

    management tools used to monit= or the health of nodes and links in the

    network, and network provision= ing tools.

 

    Examples of "administrati= on" tools are network discovery and planning

    tools.

 

    Examples of "maintenance&= quot; tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, loopback, link trace, a= nd other tools that can be used to

    monitor and diagnose failures = in a network or network element.

 

 

 

An operator's network is made up of layers -- con= sisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instance, but made more comp= lex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking = along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as= MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

DR= : We are in the IETF, so I would rather use the IETF terminology rather tha= n the OSI one.

 

 

Traditionally, fault management and path maintena= nce have been achieved through a series of technology and layer specific OA= M protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfac= es. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination between them= and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited scope of of e= ach management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms a= nd notifications

    related to defects and failure= s

-- quickly identify root causes

-- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects, faults and network f= ailures between the

    different layers to improve ef= ficiency of defect and fault

    localization and provide bette= r OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the peculiarities= of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer,= then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

 

There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB= modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible th= an SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as informat= ion retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more u= niform fashion and creating management interfaces that are more friendly to= a centralized management function than the present set.

 

DR= : SNMP is the protocol, better say SMI MIB modules. The move is however bro= ader and different, as it tends to replace SNMP/SMI by NETCONF/YANG for con= figuration operations. It does not necessarily recommends using YANG for all purposes, and certainly not =A1=AEreplace MI= B modules with YANG modules=A1=AF. We need some more accurate wording.

&n= bsp;

The objective of the LIME initiative is to encour= age consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mecha= nisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will= do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These guidelines will cov= er OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting, performance, securi= ty) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but= also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

 

(1) where the centralized management function com= municates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized management function com= municates with a local management function.

 

The first case takes priority.

 

DR= : what exactly this prioritization means? (1) and when finished (2)? (1) in= parallel with (2) but we estimate (2) will take longer time? As a suggesti= on and for better focus maybe it would be better to start with (1) and move (2) into the =A1=AEout of scope initi= ally=A1=AF category

 

Development of one or more management information= models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forwa= rd.

 

Out of scope initially, but potentially within su= bsequent scope:

  -- development of any YANG modules.

  -- development of a solution for mutual di= scovery of the centralized management function and the managed elements or = local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual dis= covery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.or= g] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Sit= uation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with differ= ent audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working= on a charter proposal.

Regards, Joel and Ben= oit (OPS ADs)

--_000_67f849e2ca16451e91fe3eacdf274ae0CO1PR05MB442namprd05pro_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 14:50:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FC51A6F5A for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:50:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.396 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cF1kxf9Ry8XB for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5E01A6F59 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.183.212; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Qin Wu'" References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:50:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000901cfd2c1$66d0e140$3472a3c0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CFD29F.DFC534B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKvZQGMPcAWTlSW42LdeVfiyxzrqwM+yP08mizCYzA= Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/kMGUXmjUnzml3s_PYBa2L7C2XhI Cc: lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 21:50:35 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CFD29F.DFC534B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will be glad to be a part of the charter design team.=20 =20 Sue=20 =20 From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 9:11 PM To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; Mishael Wexler; Jouni; huubatwork@gmail.com; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; = Tom Taylor; Tom Herbert; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Daniel King Subject: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 =20 Hi, all Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design = team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions. =20 Here is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the = list (See below or attached). =20 Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -------------------------------------------------------------- Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for network management. Quoting from RFC 6291: =20 Examples of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in = the network, and network provisioning tools. =20 Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and = planning tools. =20 Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network element. =20 An operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence = of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular = layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another. =20 Traditionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter = have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without = coordination between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The = limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to: -- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications related to defects and failures -- quickly identify root causes -- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis -- correlate status defects, faults and network failures between the different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the = results together into a coherent picture. =20 There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG = modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces = that are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present = set. =20 The objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used = to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, = capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be = limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI = layers. Two initial cases will be considered: =20 (1) where the centralized management function communicates directly with = the managed elements; =20 (2) where the centralized management function communicates with a local management function. =20 The first case takes priority. =20 Development of one or more management information models may be = undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forward. =20 Out of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope: -- development of any YANG modules. -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the managed elements or local managers. =20 Related work: -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ... =20 =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Benoit Claise =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation =20 Dear all, LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to read the archives). As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situation.=20 During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with = different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.=20 Here is what we concluded: 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. = 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each = layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense.=20 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that = there are already some efforts in that direction 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter proposal. Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs) ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CFD29F.DFC534B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I will be glad to be a part of the charter design team. =

 

Sue

 

From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin = Wu
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 9:11 PM
To: = Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; = Mishael Wexler; Jouni; huubatwork@gmail.com; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan = (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; Tom Taylor; Tom Herbert; = mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Daniel King
Subject: [Lime] LIME = Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, = all

Based on ADs suggestion on the = Charter proposal, we call for a design team to write the Charter = proposal after a few internal discussions.

 

Here = is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the list = (See below or attached).

 

Layer = Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment = (LIME)

----------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------

Operations, = Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to = tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC = 6291:

 

    Examples of tools related to = "operations" are performance monitoring

    tools used for service level = agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    management tools used to monitor = the health of nodes and links in the

    network, and network = provisioning tools.

 

    Examples of = "administration" tools are network discovery and = planning

    = tools.

 

    Examples of = "maintenance" tools are implementations of = connectivity

    = check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used = to

    monitor and = diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An = operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 = through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence = of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular = layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network = technologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault management and path = maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology and layer = specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific = management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules = developed independently without coordination between them and on = proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited scope of of each = management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and = notifications

    = related to defects and failures

-- = quickly identify root causes

-- = monitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects, faults and network = failures between the

    different layers to improve = efficiency of defect and fault

    localization and provide better = OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the = peculiarities of each individual technology specific management = interface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a = coherent picture.

 

There = is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules = instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more = safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval. This = movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations = management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces = that are more friendly to a centralized management function than the = present set.

 

The = objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent = configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used = to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this = by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its = initial task. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, = capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will = not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider management at = higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be = considered:

 

(1) = where the centralized management function communicates directly with the = managed elements;

 

(2) = where the centralized management function communicates with a local = management function.

 

The = first case takes priority.

 

Development of one or more management information = models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work = forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but potentially within = subsequent scope:

  -- = development of any YANG modules.

  -- development of a solution for mutual = discovery of the centralized management function and the managed = elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual = discovery aspect

  -- Metro = Ethernet Forum work on ...

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE= =C8=CB: = Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] = =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: = Situation

 

Dear = all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case = you want to read the archives).
As one of the first email to the = list, let me summarize the current situation.

During the last = IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different audiences = regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is = what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical = for multiple reasons.
2. It is desirable to have an unified view of = OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and = detect the faulty element in the network path
3. Consistent = configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes = sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. = Note that there are already some efforts in that direction
5. A set = of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for = consistency sake

We also = believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter = proposal.

Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS = ADs)

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CFD29F.DFC534B0-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 15:19:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD17C1A0467 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nd2TCPoVeSSP for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideburn.lancs.ac.uk (sideburn.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FEA1A0409 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex-0-ht0.lancs.ac.uk ([10.42.18.47] helo=EX-0-HT0.lancs.local) by sideburn.lancs.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XUNZ5-0000ic-1p for lime@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 23:19:07 +0100 Received: from EX-0-MB2.lancs.local ([fe80::9d98:936b:54d1:c531]) by EX-0-HT0.lancs.local ([fe80::7d10:114a:53b0:7f2f%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 23:19:06 +0100 From: "King, Daniel" To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: General Use Case I-D Thread-Index: Ac/Sw/6EyLoru9jTQNuwZupDIPjmZA== Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:19:05 +0000 Message-ID: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A32366044@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [176.227.128.84] x-iss-local-domain: 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/L1uua9tTTCWUnsdG0FpVwhYvnwI Subject: [Lime] General Use Case I-D X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:19:10 -0000 Hi All, =20 =20 We are updating the general Use Case I-D: Use Cases and Requirements for Layer Independent OAM Management in multi-la= yer environments draft-king-opsawg-lime-multi-layer-oam-use-case This document identifies and discusses the key use-cases and high-level req= uirements for layer independent Operations, Administration, and Maintenance= management to facilitate operations and maintenance in multi-layer and mul= ti-domain networks utilizing a wide variety of heterogeneous networking tec= hnologies. The latest work-in-progress version is available on GitHub: =20 https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/general-use-case If you would like to contribute or have any updates for the current version= , please send your comments to the list, or drop me (or the other authors) = an email if you are shy. We will obviously submit via the IETF datatracker = and post on the LIME list when the authors are happy with the new version.= =20 Br, Dan. =20 From nobody Wed Sep 17 17:39:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70251A01D5 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SO7fj1ouwGXf for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A72231A007D for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 03:35:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6002; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1410950106; x=1412159706; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=jdukATODJPALrBnDEz82tWmyUIeAqmV/KnpvBfLymSY=; b=Kk8RD4RSIoEAzjpLUZWVkl3dC8hWf7j4dQCHXrOSV3c3bYB0iTzp8KiH YG3ifcHzj93LI3qBjZf4E2JeVtTqT+NnM0mfraxDhOz88Y/OVutaS+FyI 75ExWWAMPuWq+zfUERYL7W1rpiJaUDc3RIWF/wsGQmUsxfkNK3AathJAn I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,540,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="176316028" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Sep 2014 10:35:04 +0000 Received: from [64.103.108.106] (dhcp-bdlk10-data-vlan301-64-103-108-106.cisco.com [64.103.108.106]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8HAZ3Sh006352; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:35:03 GMT Message-ID: <541963D7.9030409@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:35:03 +0100 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080001070809050406030007" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/A1E7K2h6QtNeSEgrLPHKcm6poKQ X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:39:10 -0700 Cc: Sam Aldrin , Pradeep Jain , Mishael Wexler , Jouni , "huubatwork@gmail.com" , Gregory Mirsky , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , Ravi Shekhar , Tom Taylor , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Daniel King , Tom Herbert Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:35:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080001070809050406030007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 17/09/2014 02:11, Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, all > > Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design > team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions. > SB> I volunteer to help. > Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning tools. SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing, or of an application layer broker. SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to: SB> of of (typo) SB> Shouldn't the instantiation of these models in a particular protocol be explicitly out of scope? Here is what we concluded: 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. SB> Agree 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path SB> Hopefully we can achieve this, but we need to be clear that this should not be a constraint on new protocols, i.e. if we miss something that a new protocol needs, then the model has to be improved. 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense. SB> Yes, subject to (2) 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction SB> Agree 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake SB> Agree - Stewart --------------080001070809050406030007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 17/09/2014 02:11, Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.


SB> I volunteer to help.


    Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing, or of an application layer broker.
SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration?

configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:

SB> of of (typo)


SB> Shouldn't the instantiation of these models in a particular protocol be explicitly out of scope?

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.

SB> Agree

2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path

SB> Hopefully we can achieve this, but we need to be clear that this should not be a constraint on new protocols, i.e. if we miss something that a new protocol needs, then the model has to be improved.
 
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense.

SB> Yes, subject to (2)

4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction

SB> Agree

5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake

SB> Agree

- Stewart
--------------080001070809050406030007-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 17:57:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB35C1A6F93 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:57:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9cJjXq0ww-Sw for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1B7C1A6F7D for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO47740; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 00:57:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 01:57:19 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:57:15 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Susan Hares Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggADZBwCAALo3IA== Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 00:57:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <000901cfd2c1$66d0e140$3472a3c0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <000901cfd2c1$66d0e140$3472a3c0$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E94FCnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/b_mA7gqLZvnGLszIYYATy1ApLbA Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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Thanks Sue= , you are in.

 = ;

Regards!

-Qin<= /o:p>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C218=C8=D5 5:51
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

I will be = glad to be a part of the charter design team.

 = ;

Sue

 = ;

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 9:11 PM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; Mishael Wexler; Jouni; huubatwork@gmail.com; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; T= om Taylor; Tom Herbert; mohamed.boucadair@orange.co= m; Daniel King
Subject: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, = all

Base= d on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design team to w= rite the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.

 

Here= is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See= below or attached).

 

Laye= r Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------

Oper= ations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers= to tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of tools related to "operations" are perf= ormance monitoring

&nbs= p;   tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fa= ult

&nbs= p;   management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and lin= ks in the

&nbs= p;   network, and network provisioning tools.

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of "administration" tools are network dis= covery and planning

&nbs= p;   tools.

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementation= s of connectivity

&nbs= p;   check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be use= d to

&nbs= p;   monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network elemen= t.

 

An o= perator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 throug= h 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular l= ayer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network techn= ologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Trad= itionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through= a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter have = been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination= between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited = scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- s= uppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications

&nbs= p;   related to defects and failures

-- q= uickly identify root causes

-- m= onitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- c= orrelate status defects, faults and network failures between the=

&nbs= p;   different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

&nbs= p;   localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has= been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the results= together into a coherent picture.

 

Ther= e is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules ins= tead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval= . This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations= management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces th= at are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present set.

 

The = objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, = reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this by p= reparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial tas= k. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, acc= ounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but al= so consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be cons= idered:

 

(1) = where the centralized management function communicates directly with the ma= naged elements;

 

(2) = where the centralized management function communicates with a local managem= ent function.

 

The = first case takes priority.

 

Deve= lopment of one or more management information models may be undertaken if i= t is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

 

Out = of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:

&nbs= p; -- development of any YANG modules.

&nbs= p; -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized man= agement function and the managed elements or local managers.

 

Rela= ted work:

&nbs= p; -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect

&nbs= p; -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E94FCnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 19:22:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9DA1A6FF2 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:19:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNgk5Sm0sXMY for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22e.google.com (mail-qg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9D071A6FF8 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id q107so284075qgd.5 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:19:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NF3tPw4V+VnyiM4w+180JoGdGMHQanveFXpjk8HAp6Y=; b=vzd5sXzcqIbapUNVGDlIACL278K0yW9r6GKJO0Ok31o2WXxag0vuxwREFI/3K6Ze/1 LcgnG2rRODdUnb1rn+cOKTsh35Szs1h/XD4IS8bZbyjvxx5NHPc994ig4EguQOGaECkV y6uktSN0PZi47u+UysSWd9YE3bFhMm/TLvf0XcidAaa8zUId90NYQLSCr5VH73gq8YsR khtONtDRSKZi8n9ypx1rAHWU1GC8Fsmc5Ml4157m22HGY2lUi8v30g9oYPmh5HUQDLXv amCg84Fs4StBfex1U4V4kvEsIW0OWegL60TOjElLedLKh0wlDu87S7tleF1s83ix2VpF wjCw== X-Received: by 10.224.75.132 with SMTP id y4mr2627038qaj.95.1411006740414; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.29.154.172] ([58.251.73.229]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p67sm9503550qgd.16.2014.09.17.19.18.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <541A410A.2010708@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:18:50 +0300 From: Jouni Korhonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/q1LbAGGABpJBgGzME89oGCg6DMQ X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:22:10 -0700 Cc: Gregory Mirsky , Pradeep Jain , Mishael Wexler , "huubatwork@gmail.com" , Sam Aldrin , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , Ravi Shekhar , Tom Taylor , Tom Herbert , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Daniel King Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:19:07 -0000 Qin, 9/17/2014 4:11 AM, Qin Wu kirjoitti: > Hi, all > > Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design > team to write the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions. I can give some review etc help here.. - Jouni > > Here is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the > list (See below or attached). > > Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that > refers to tools created for network management. Quoting from RFC 6291: > > Examples of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring > > tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault > > management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the > > network, and network provisioning tools. > > Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning > > tools. > > Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity > > check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to > > monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network element. > > An operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 > through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence > of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular > layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network > technologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another. > > Traditionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved > through a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together > with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter > have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without > coordination between them and on proprietary interfaces for > configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has > made it very difficult to: > > -- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications > > related to defects and failures > > -- quickly identify root causes > > -- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis > > -- correlate status defects, faults and network failures between the > > different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault > > localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been > necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology > specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the > results together into a coherent picture. > > There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG > modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and > can more safely be used for configuration as well as information > retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling > OAM operations management in a more uniform fashion and creating > management interfaces that are more friendly to a centralized management > function than the present set. > > The objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent > configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used > to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this > by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its > initial task. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, > capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will > not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider management at > higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered: > > (1) where the centralized management function communicates directly with > the managed elements; > > (2) where the centralized management function communicates with a local > management function. > > The first case takes priority. > > Development of one or more management information models may be > undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forward. > > Out of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope: > > -- development of any YANG modules. > > -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized > management function and the managed elements or local managers. > > Related work: > > -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect > > -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ... > > *·¢¼þÈË:*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *´ú±í *Benoit Claise > *·¢ËÍʱ¼ä:*2014Äê9ÔÂ16ÈÕ18:58 > *ÊÕ¼þÈË:*lime@ietf.org > *Ö÷Ìâ:*[Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation > > Dear all, > > LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to > read the archives). > As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current > situation. > > During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with > different audiences regarding this OAM initiative. > > Here is what we concluded: > 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. > 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each > layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element > in the network path > 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM > mechanisms makes sense. > 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that > there are already some efforts in that direction > 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for > consistency sake > > We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a > charter proposal. > > Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs) > From nobody Wed Sep 17 19:22:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2241A6FF6 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.064 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.064 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id foSxrdgetk6Q for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A16B11A6FF3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO51947; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:21:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:20:57 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:20:44 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Jouni Korhonen , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAEkAACAAIZu0A== Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:20:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <541A410A.2010708@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <541A410A.2010708@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/VWiOcd6oiH7U4gl__RAi-nOMTng X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:22:11 -0700 Cc: Gregory Mirsky , Pradeep Jain , Mishael Wexler , "huubatwork@gmail.com" , Sam Aldrin , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , Ravi Shekhar , Tom Taylor , Tom Herbert , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Daniel King Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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ESMTP id 434E71A0140 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:06:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SN61OZ8HNax3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B4E51A00F3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO54887; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:05:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.60) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:05:54 +0100 Received: from SZXEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.124]) by szxeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:05:48 +0800 From: wangzitao To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAcT4CAAK7w0P//gqGAgAFmu7CAAAA3UA== Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:05:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E09Cszxeml501mbxchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/yn6D0f9jWiuMnrwu_-pNiBLqm0M Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:06:01 -0000 --_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E09Cszxeml501mbxchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning tools. SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing, o= r of an application layer broker. SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? [Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application protocol provide a good= functionality for network discovery. Also I agree configuration is a good example of administration. Before conf= iguration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and= where it is. Doesn't this come from a network management database, or in these modern ti= mes the orchestrator. Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of fu= ll manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discov= ery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network. - Stewart Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am wondering if routing prot= ocol or application protocol can provide a capability to allow management e= ntity discover a set of managed elements in the same path for a specific fl= ow? It would be interesting to see management entity to support such capability= ? It looks routing protocol doesn't support such capability. Can autonomic = networking provide such capability? - Michael --_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E09Cszxeml501mbxchina_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=     Examples of "administration" tools are network= discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing= , or of an application layer broker.

=
SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? <= /span>

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application pr= otocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of admini= stration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

Doesn't this come from a network management da= tabase, or in these modern times the orchestrator.

Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of fu= ll manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discov= ery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network.<= br>
- Stewart

Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am w= ondering if routing protocol or application protocol can provide a capabili= ty to allow management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path for a specific flow?

It would be interesting to see management entity to= support such capability? It looks routing protocol doesn’t support s= uch capability. Can autonomic networking provide such capability?

-    Michael
--_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E09Cszxeml501mbxchina_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 21:53:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CE61A0680 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 21:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X1Kvetb_ywYi for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 21:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5359A1A01E0 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 21:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO60879; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:53:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:53:01 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:52:50 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: wangzitao , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAcT4CAAK7w0P//gqGAgAFmu7CAAAA3UIAAHnvA Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:52:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E96D8nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/3h3XRZOm-_61_xYaeo_ldrMNlPE Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:53:08 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E96D8nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 t6K8/sjLOiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGltZS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSC0+rHtIHdhbmd6aXRh bw0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTTE6jnUwjE4yNUgMTE6MDYNCsrVvP7IyzogbGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K 1vfM4jogUmU6IFtMaW1lXSBMSU1FIENoYXJ0ZXIgUHJvcHNvc2FsIHYxDQoNCiAgICBFeGFtcGxl cyBvZiAiYWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpb24iIHRvb2xzIGFyZSBuZXR3b3JrIGRpc2NvdmVyeSBhbmQgcGxh bm5pbmcNCiAgICB0b29scy4NCg0KU0I+IFJlZ2FyZGxlc3Mgb2YgUkZDNjI5MSwgbmV0d29yayBk aXNjb3ZlcnkgaXMgbm9ybWFsbHkgcGFydCBvZiByb3V0aW5nLCBvciBvZiBhbiBhcHBsaWNhdGlv biBsYXllciBicm9rZXIuDQoNClNCPiBTdXJlbHkgdGhlIG5vcm1hbCBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9mIGFk bWluIGlzIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24/DQpbUWluXTogWWVzLCBJIGFncmVlIHJvdXRpbmcgcHJvdG9j b2wgb3IgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gcHJvdG9jb2wgcHJvdmlkZSBhIGdvb2QgZnVuY3Rpb25hbGl0eSBm b3IgbmV0d29yayBkaXNjb3ZlcnkuDQpBbHNvIEkgYWdyZWUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBpcyBhIGdv b2QgZXhhbXBsZSBvZiBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGlvbi4gQmVmb3JlIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24sIG1hbmFn ZW1lbnQgZnVuY3Rpb24gbmVlZHMgdG8ga25vdyB3aG8gbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgY29uZmlndXJlZCBh bmQgd2hlcmUgaXQgaXMuDQpEb2Vzbid0IHRoaXMgY29tZSBmcm9tIGEgbmV0d29yayBtYW5hZ2Vt ZW50IGRhdGFiYXNlLCBvciBpbiB0aGVzZSBtb2Rlcm4gdGltZXMgdGhlIG9yY2hlc3RyYXRvci4N Cg0KUGVyaGFwcyB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGdvIHVwIGEgbGV2ZWwgYW5kIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgd2hlcmUg b24gdGhlIHNwZWN0cnVtIG9mIGZ1bGwgbWFudWFsIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gdG8gYXV0b25vbWlj IG5ldHdvcmtpbmcgd2UgYXJlIHRhcmdldGluZyB0aGUgZGlzY292ZXJ5LCBhbmQgd2hhdCBpcyBp biBhbmQgb3V0IG9mIHNjb3BlIGluIGEgInRyYWRpdGlvbmFsIiBuZXR3b3JrLg0KDQotIFN0ZXdh cnQNCkludGVyZXN0aW5nIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb24gbmV0d29yayBkaXNjb3ZlcnkuIEkgYW0gd29u ZGVyaW5nIGlmIHJvdXRpbmcgcHJvdG9jb2wgb3IgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gcHJvdG9jb2wgY2FuIHBy b3ZpZGUgYSBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IHRvIGFsbG93IG1hbmFnZW1lbnQgZW50aXR5IGRpc2NvdmVyIGEg c2V0IG9mIG1hbmFnZWQgZWxlbWVudHMgaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgcGF0aCBmb3IgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBm bG93Pw0KSXQgd291bGQgYmUgaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgdG8gc2VlIG1hbmFnZW1lbnQgZW50aXR5IHRv IHN1cHBvcnQgc3VjaCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5PyBJdCBsb29rcyByb3V0aW5nIHByb3RvY29sIGRvZXNu oa90IHN1cHBvcnQgc3VjaCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5LiBDYW4gYXV0b25vbWljIG5ldHdvcmtpbmcgcHJv dmlkZSBzdWNoIGNhcGFiaWxpdHk/DQoNCi0gICAgTWljaGFlbA0KDQoNCg0KW1Fpbl06IFlvdSBh cmUgdGFsa2luZyBhYm91dCBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgYWxvbmcgYSBnaXZlbiBwYXRoLCBJIHRoaW5rIG5l dHdvcmsgbWFuYWdlbWVudCBkYXRhYmFzZSBkb2VzbqGvdCBzdXBwb3J0IHN1Y2ggY2FwYWJpbGl0 eSBzaW5jZSB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBjb3JyZWxhdGUgZGlmZmVyZW50IG1hbmFnZWQgZWxlbWVudHMg dG9nZXRoZXIgZm9yIGEgZ2l2ZW4gcGF0aC4NCg0KQXJlIHlvdSBwcm9wb3NpbmcgdG8gcHV0IHRo aXMgY2FwYWJpbGl0eSBhcyBwYXJ0IG9mIGRpc2NvdmVyeSBjb21wb25lbnQgd2UgYXJlIHByb3Bv c2luZyBpbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlcj8NCg== --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E96D8nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED wangzitao
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C218=C8=D5 11:06
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

=     Examples of "administration" tools are network= discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing= , or of an application layer broker.

=
SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? <= /span>

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application pr= otocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of admini= stration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

Doesn't this come from a network managem= ent database, or in these modern times the orchestrator.

Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of fu= ll manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discov= ery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network.<= br>
- Stewart

Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am w= ondering if routing protocol or application protocol can provide a capabili= ty to allow management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path for a specific flow?

It would be interesting to see management entity to= support such capability? It looks routing protocol doesn=A1=AFt support su= ch capability. Can autonomic networking provide such capability?

-    Michael
 

[Qin]: You are talking about=
 discovery along a given path, I think network management database doesn=A1=
=AFt support such capability since you need to correlate different managed =
elements together for a given path.


Are you proposing to put thi=
s capability as part of discovery component we are proposing in the charter=
?
--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E96D8nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 17 22:08:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7C41A0385 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rKYbAH0HFkus for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgwmail5.fujitsu.co.jp (fgwmail5.fujitsu.co.jp [192.51.44.35]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A07E31A014E for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kw-mxoi2.gw.nic.fujitsu.com (unknown [10.0.237.143]) by fgwmail5.fujitsu.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109303EE1C2 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:08:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from s2.gw.fujitsu.co.jp (s2.gw.fujitsu.co.jp [10.0.50.92]) by kw-mxoi2.gw.nic.fujitsu.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EDDAC0743 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:08:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from dm.kawasaki.flab.fujitsu.co.jp (dm.kawasaki.flab.fujitsu.co.jp [10.25.192.105]) by s2.gw.fujitsu.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABED1E08056 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:07:55 +0900 (JST) X-SecurityPolicyCheck: OK by SHieldMailChecker v2.2.3 X-SHieldMailCheckerPolicyVersion: FJ-ISEC-20140219 Message-ID: <541A6882.90906@jp.fujitsu.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:07:14 +0900 From: Yuji Tochio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lime@ietf.org References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040403040405000006000704" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/PrbR-5U8dyK2Hx3X_GK2dczrQtU Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:08:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040403040405000006000704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Qin, I appreciate your efforts and I am also interested in this work and glad to help. A few editoral comments on the proposed charter. - Second sentence in 3rd paragraph (Traditionally, ...) It says: The latter have been .... It is hard to recognize since the previous sentence is long and includes many "and". I guess it is path maintenance and I suggest to make "the latter" clearer. - Last sentence of 4th paragraph It uses "OAM operations management" but is "operation(s)" used twice? or used as operational data?. I think just OAM makes sense... - 1st sentence in 5th paragraph It uses "OAM mechanisms" and it looks the mixture of tools and protocols for this term. Fortunatelly, RFC 7276 defines the terminologies for OAM xxx in section 2.2.3. It would be better to be in align with the section. - 3rd sentence in 5th paragraph C in FCAPS should be configuration. But I am not sure the former part of this sentence (i.e. covering 5 FCAPS) is needed for the chapter... Regards, Yuji (2014/09/17 10:34), Qin Wu wrote: > > Hi, all > > Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few internal discussions. > > Here is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached). > > Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for network management. Quoting from RFC 6291: > > Examples of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring > > tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault > > management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the > > network, and network provisioning tools. > > Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning > > tools. > > Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity > > check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to > > monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network element. > > An operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence of network > overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as > MPLS at one point, IP at another. > > Traditionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with > technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination between them > and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to: > > -- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications > > related to defects and failures > > -- quickly identify root causes > > -- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis > > -- correlate status defects, faults and network failures between the > > different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault > > localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management > interface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture. > > There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be > used for configuration as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more > uniform fashion and creating management interfaces that are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present set. > > The objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, > over all layers and technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These guidelines will > cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also > consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered: > > (1) where the centralized management function communicates directly with the managed elements; > > (2) where the centralized management function communicates with a local management function. > > The first case takes priority. > > Development of one or more management information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forward. > > Out of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope: > > -- development of any YANG modules. > > -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the managed elements or local managers. > > Related work: > > -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect > > -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ... > > *? $B7o?M(B:*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *$BBe(B $BI=(B *Benoit Claise > *? $BAw(B??:*2014$BG/(B9$B7n(B16$BF|(B18:58 > *$BZ@7o?M(B:*lime@ietf.org > *$B > Dear all, > > LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to read the archives). > As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situation. > > During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative. > > Here is what we concluded: > 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. > 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path > 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense. > 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction > 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake > > We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter proposal. > > Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime --------------040403040405000006000704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Qin,

I appreciate your efforts and I am also interested in this work and glad to help.

A few editoral comments on the proposed charter.

- Second sentence in 3rd paragraph (Traditionally, ...)
It says: The latter have been ....
It is hard to recognize since the previous sentence is long and includes many "and". I guess it is path maintenance and I suggest to make "the latter" clearer.

- Last sentence of 4th paragraph
It uses "OAM operations management" but is "operation(s)" used twice?  or used as operational data?. I think just OAM makes sense...

- 1st sentence in 5th paragraph
It uses "OAM mechanisms" and it looks the mixture of tools and protocols for this term. Fortunatelly, RFC 7276 defines the  terminologies for OAM xxx in section 2.2.3. It would be better to be in align with the section.

- 3rd sentence in 5th paragraph
C in FCAPS should be configuration. But I am not sure the former part of this sentence (i.e. covering 5 FCAPS) is needed for the chapter...

Regards, Yuji


(2014/09/17 10:34), Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.

 

Here is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

    Examples of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring

    tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

    network, and network provisioning tools.

 

    Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning

    tools.

 

    Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

    monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An operator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network technologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- suppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications

    related to defects and failures

-- quickly identify root causes

-- monitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects, faults and network failures between the

    different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

    localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

 

There is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces that are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present set.

 

The objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

 

(1) where the centralized management function communicates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized management function communicates with a local management function.

 

The first case takes priority.

 

Development of one or more management information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:

  -- development of any YANG modules.

  -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the managed elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

 

 

发 $B7o?M(B: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] $BBe(B $BI=(B Benoit Claise
发 $BAw(B时间: 2014$BG/(B9$B7n(B16$BF|(B 18:58
$BZ@7o?M(B: lime@ietf.org
$B: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to read the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situation.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.
2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter proposal.

Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)



_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime

--------------040403040405000006000704-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 00:05:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B461A7113 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 00:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P4Ugd1kocxcZ for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 00:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB3D11A70FD for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 00:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO70935; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:05:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:05:28 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:05:24 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Yuji Tochio , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAK1qCAAUg3AIAAlp5A Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:05:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <541A6882.90906@jp.fujitsu.com> In-Reply-To: <541A6882.90906@jp.fujitsu.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E9722nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/VXEEHSr8bG2CUl58tIqwLAIEMoI Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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Hi, Yuji:<= o:p>

Thanks for= your support and valuable review.

See my rep= ly inline.

 = ;

Regards!

-Qin<= /o:p>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Yuji Tochio
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C218=C8=D5 13:07
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi Qin,

I appreciate your efforts and I am also interested in this work and glad to= help.

A few editoral comments on the proposed charter.

- Second sentence in 3rd paragraph (Traditionally, ...)
It says: The latter have been ....
It is hard to recognize since the previous sentence is long and includes ma= ny "and". I guess it is path maintenance and I suggest to make &q= uot;the latter" clearer.

[Qin]:I th= ink it should be =A1=B0technology and layer specific management interfaces= =A1=B1. We will fix this.


- Last sentence of 4th paragraph
It uses "OAM operations management" but is "operation(s)&quo= t; used twice?  or used as operational data?. I think just OAM makes s= ense...

 = ;

[Qin]: It = looks here we intend to underline operation management, but I am okay to re= move operations from =A1=B0OAM operations management=A1=B1. Maybe we can also say OAM and Management.


- 1st sentence in 5th paragraph
It uses "OAM mechanisms" and it looks the mixture of tools and pr= otocols for this term. Fortunatelly, RFC 7276 defines the  terminologi= es for OAM xxx in section 2.2.3. It would be better to be in align with the= section.

 = ;

[Qin]: Goo= d suggestions, we will use the terms in the RFC7276.



- 3rd sentence in 5th paragraph
C in FCAPS should be configuration. But I am not sure the former part of th= is sentence (i.e. covering 5 FCAPS) is needed for the chapter...

[Qin]: It = is typo, C should be configuration, thanks for catching.<= /p>

FCAPS is r= elated to network management, traditional network management practices deal= with a wide array of

procedures= , processes, and tools for configuration, fault detection, performance moni= toring, security, accounting.

OAM is an = important part of network management. But I agree OAM doesn=A1=AFt equal to= FCAPS. We will see how to fix this.


Regards, Yuji


(2014/09/17 10:34), Qin Wu wrote:

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on t= he Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.=

 

Here is the initial version = of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Manage= ment in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------

Operations, Administration, = and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for ne= twork management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

    Examples = of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring<= /o:p>

    tools use= d for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    managemen= t tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

    network, = and network provisioning tools.

 

    Examples = of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning=

    tools.

 

    Examples = of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, lo= opback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

    monitor a= nd diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An operator's network is mad= e up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instanc= e, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 = [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network tec= hnologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault managem= ent and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology = and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specifi= c management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordi= nation between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The li= mited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:<= o:p>

-- suppress large numbers of= unnecessary alarms and notifications

    related t= o defects and failures

-- quickly identify root cau= ses

-- monitor performance on an= end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects,= faults and network failures between the

    different= layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

    localizat= ion and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary to navig= ate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management int= erface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

 

There is now a move afoot to= replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexi= ble and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuratio= n as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations = management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces tha= t are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present s= et.

 

The objective of the LIME in= itiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentat= ion for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and = technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These= guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting,= performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer = 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

 

(1) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates with a local management function.=

 

The first case takes priorit= y.

 

Development of one or more m= anagement information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary t= o move the work forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but = potentially within subsequent scope:

  -- development of any= YANG modules.

  -- development of a s= olution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the= managed elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interes= ted in the mutual discovery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet For= um work on ...

 

 

=B7=A2 =BC=FE=C8=CB: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA =B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2 =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:= 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation<= /o:p>

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)




_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime

 

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E9722nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 01:13:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7AC1A8028 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 01:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EVaDcUXYNQyZ for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 01:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6237B1A6FBB for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 01:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO78586; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:13:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:13:22 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 16:13:16 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1--Charter Design Team Thread-Index: AQHP0xhlsnrD1q3lukKhWZDjMjbKTw== Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:13:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> <000901cfd2c1$66d0e140$3472a3c0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <000901cfd2c1$66d0e140$3472a3c0$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E9778nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/f4re1iDnRBsAJy4MQ2VXFt1z1Ow Cc: Benoit Claise , Tom Taylor Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1--Charter Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E9778nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi:

Thanks all= who volunteer to help review or provide input to LIME Charter proposal.

Our call f= or Charter Design team will end on Friday in the end of this week. Let me k= now if you want to join.

Based on c= onfirmation we have got earlier and now on the list, here is a list of peop= le who are willing to help with LIME charter proposal:

<<&l= t;<<<<<<<<<<<<<< =

Stewart Br= yant

Romascanu,= Dan

Ronald Bon= ica

Susan Hare= s

Jouni Korh= onen

Yuji Tochi= o

Tom Taylor=

Gregory Mi= rsky

Daniel Kin= g

Sam Aldrin=

Mohamed Bo= ucadair

Ravi Shekh= ar

Huub van H= elvoort

Tom Herber= t

<<&l= t;<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<&= lt;<<<<<<<<<<<<< 

We will ad= d them into our Charter Design team. If anyone else who is not in this list= is willing to help or I miss anyone, please let me know and send me a message to me offline.

We will se= e how to address comments we received on the list so far with additional te= xt proposal.

 = ;

If you hav= e input or update to LIME Charter proposal, please send your output to me o= ffline before September 24, next Wednesday.

We will fi= nalized our Charter proposal one September 24 before the deadline set by th= e IETF.

Thanks for= your support and help.

 = ;

Regards!

-Qin<= /o:p>

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 9:11 PM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Gregory Mirsky; Pradeep Jain; Mishael Wexler; Jouni; huubatwork@gmail.com; Sam Aldrin; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Ravi Shekhar; T= om Taylor; Tom Herbert; mohamed.boucadair@orange.co= m; Daniel King
Subject: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, = all

Base= d on ADs suggestion on the Charter proposal, we call for a design team to w= rite the Charter proposal after a few internal discussions.

 

Here= is the initial version of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See= below or attached).

 

Laye= r Independent OAM Management in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------

Oper= ations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers= to tools created for network management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of tools related to "operations" are perf= ormance monitoring

&nbs= p;   tools used for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fa= ult

&nbs= p;   management tools used to monitor the health of nodes and lin= ks in the

&nbs= p;   network, and network provisioning tools.

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of "administration" tools are network dis= covery and planning

&nbs= p;   tools.

 

&nbs= p;   Examples of "maintenance" tools are implementation= s of connectivity

&nbs= p;   check, loopback, link trace, and other tools that can be use= d to

&nbs= p;   monitor and diagnose failures in a network or network elemen= t.

 

An o= perator's network is made up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 throug= h 3 in the first instance, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 [reference]. Looking along a particular l= ayer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network techn= ologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Trad= itionally, fault management and path maintenance have been achieved through= a series of technology and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specific management interfaces. The latter have = been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordination= between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The limited = scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:

-- s= uppress large numbers of unnecessary alarms and notifications

&nbs= p;   related to defects and failures

-- q= uickly identify root causes

-- m= onitor performance on an end-to-end basis

-- c= orrelate status defects, faults and network failures between the=

&nbs= p;   different layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

&nbs= p;   localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has= been necessary to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific management interface at each layer, then try to bring the results= together into a coherent picture.

 

Ther= e is now a move afoot to replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules ins= tead. YANG is more flexible and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuration as well as information retrieval= . This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations= management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces th= at are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present set.

 

The = objective of the LIME initiative is to encourage consistent configuration, = reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and technologies. It will do this by p= reparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial tas= k. These guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, acc= ounting, performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer 1-3 technologies but al= so consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be cons= idered:

 

(1) = where the centralized management function communicates directly with the ma= naged elements;

 

(2) = where the centralized management function communicates with a local managem= ent function.

 

The = first case takes priority.

 

Deve= lopment of one or more management information models may be undertaken if i= t is seen as necessary to move the work forward.

 

Out = of scope initially, but potentially within subsequent scope:

&nbs= p; -- development of any YANG modules.

&nbs= p; -- development of a solution for mutual discovery of the centralized man= agement function and the managed elements or local managers.

 

Rela= ted work:

&nbs= p; -- ANIMA very interested in the mutual discovery aspect

&nbs= p; -- Metro Ethernet Forum work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E9778nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 02:07:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340C11A86EA for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B6EZ4UuMOTe7 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD1D51A86E5 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMS93036; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:07:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.37) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:07:52 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.123]) by SZXEMA405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:07:45 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Benoit Claise Thread-Topic: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation Thread-Index: AQHP0dWEpISEYItSYUulm9lEKTy6wpwGmKvg Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:07:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.42.200] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF25SZXEMA502MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Mkjv9WyVXpdkxcZCaVAdCRrv558 Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:07:57 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF25SZXEMA502MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benoit, I agree with your initial conclusion. I still have some further questions as inline, hoping to get your opinion. Thanks! B.R. Frank From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:58 PM To: lime@ietf.org Subject: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation Dear all, LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives). As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on. During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different= audiences regarding this OAM initiative. Here is what we concluded: 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense. 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction [Frank] : Before we define any YANG model for this objective, does it need = some basic Information Model definition firstly? Is the Information model i= n the scope of this work? 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake [Frank] : What kind of guidelines does here mean? Does the future OAM deve= lopments only refer to OAM in management plane, or also include OAM in data= plane? I think maybe both. We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a cha= rter proposal. Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs) --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF25SZXEMA502MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Benoit,=

I agree wi= th your initial conclusion.

I still ha= ve some further questions as inline, hoping to get your opinion.=

Thanks!

 = ;

B.R.<= /o:p>

Frank=

 = ;

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:58 PM
To: lime@ietf.org
Subject: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were vari= ous discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction

[Frank] : Before w= e define any YANG model for this objective, does it need some basic Information Model definition firstly? Is the Information model in th= e scope of this work?


5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

[Frank] : What kin= d of guidelines does here mean?  Does the future OAM developments only refer to OAM in management plane, or also include OAM in data plane? = I think maybe both.

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF25SZXEMA502MBSchi_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 03:10:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036D11A871D for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D2_G08Md5-xs for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C162D1A032A for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJO92165; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:10:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.42) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:10:37 +0100 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.123]) by SZXEMA410-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:10:28 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: Qin Wu Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0kDXMUPhqRC6DECmbPehm6adEZwGnKzw Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:10:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.42.200] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF59SZXEMA502MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/U02OC68ZbFzAwgf2iTtxxA1W7sU Cc: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" , Tom Taylor Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:10:47 -0000 --_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF59SZXEMA502MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUWluLA0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciBpbml0aWF0aW5nIGFuZCBwcm9wb3NpbmcgdGhpcyB2ZXJ5IHZh bHVhYmxlIHdvcmsgdG8gSUVURiENCkkgYW0gdmVyeSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGl0IGFuZCB3aWxs IGNvbnRyaWJ1dGUgdG8gaXQuIElmIHRoZSBDaGFydGVyIERlc2lnbiBUZWFtIGlzIG5vdCB0b28g bG9uZywgcGxlYXNlIGFkZCBtZX5+DQpOb3csIEkgaGF2ZSBzb21lIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFuZCBxdWVz dGlvbnMgdG8gdGhlIENoYXJ0ZXIgUHJvcG9zYWwgZm9yIHlvdXIgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbi4gUGxl YXNlIHNlZSBpbmxpbmU6DQoNClRoYW5rcyENCg0KQi5SLg0KRnJhbmsNCg0KRnJvbTogTGltZSBb bWFpbHRvOmxpbWUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFFpbiBXdQ0KU2VudDog V2VkbmVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTcsIDIwMTQgOTozNCBBTQ0KVG86IEJlbm9pdCBDbGFpc2U7 IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCkNjOiBUb20gVGF5bG9yDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0xpbWVdIExJTUUg 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Hi Qin,

Thanks for= initiating and proposing this very valuable work to IETF!

I am very = interested in it and will contribute to it. If the Charter Design Team is n= ot too long, please add me~~

Now, I hav= e some comments and questions to the Charter Proposal for your consideratio= n. Please see inline:

 = ;

Thanks!

 = ;

B.R.<= /o:p>

Frank=

 = ;

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 9:34 AM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on t= he Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few interna= l discussions.

 

Here is the initial version = of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Manage= ment in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------

Operations, Administration, = and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for ne= twork management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

    Examples = of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring<= /o:p>

    tools use= d for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    managemen= t tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

    network, = and network provisioning tools.

 

    Examples = of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning=

    tools.

 

    Examples = of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, lo= opback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

    monitor a= nd diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An operator's network is mad= e up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instanc= e, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 = [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network tec= hnologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault managem= ent and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology = and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specifi= c management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordi= nation between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The li= mited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:<= o:p>

[Frank] : I think we cannot say SNMP interfaces are proprietary interface= s, they have been standardized. So, I suggest to use =A1=B0particular MIB m= odules=A1=B1 to replace =A1=B0proprietary interfaces=A1=B1

 

-- suppress large numbers of= unnecessary alarms and notifications

    related t= o defects and failures

-- quickly identify root cau= ses

-- monitor performance on an= end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects,= faults and network failures between the

    different= layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

= localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary= to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific manag= ement interface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

[Frank] : Should =A1=B0status defects=A1=B1 be replaced by =A1=B0status, = defects=A1=B1? One point maybe missed here is about the complexity of under= standing and developing a management MIB module for the operators because of each one is technology and layer specific.

 

There is now a move afoot to= replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexi= ble and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuratio= n as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations = management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces tha= t are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present s= et.

 

The objective of the LIME in= itiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentat= ion for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and = technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These= guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting,= performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer = 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

[Frank] : I personally think the description about =A1=B0guidelines=A1=B1= is not very clear. What=A1=AFs the guidelines aim for? What=A1=AFs  a= bout the future OAM developments? What=A1=AFs the relation between them? Hoping it has a more clear description here.

 

(1) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates with a local management function.=

[Frank] : maybe need a explanation of what is a local management function= .

 

The first case takes priorit= y.

 

Development of one or more m= anagement information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary t= o move the work forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but = potentially within subsequent scope:

  -- development of any= YANG modules.

  -- development of a s= olution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the= managed elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interes= ted in the mutual discovery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet For= um work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F12ACEFF59SZXEMA502MBSchi_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 03:41:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4DD1A8745 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a74NBW7QWMDq for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1903B1A017C for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 03:41:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11991; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411036868; x=1412246468; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version:to:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=eSqiduSGpVxILCZ13apr3oGFFheKTaqwBE0+Qj7w170=; b=OjUGOD5loM3C+w2Mep43n14umtmT8HOZtFBtwVOzrbNw8P6wX17ZmcJZ x+BeCeYzgt4IthrlBNZlXCkBonG4LVH1spcm5hrIobRJ/ww+NHWl2bMIQ 2ZNIaUyCxp7mJkRT8XeDZkVFyyXsA6lGzOJR0gsd1LkFOe/Y80JNuMG0S c=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,546,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="181392526" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Sep 2014 10:41:06 +0000 Received: from [64.103.108.91] (dhcp-bdlk10-data-vlan301-64-103-108-91.cisco.com [64.103.108.91]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8IAf4Yj024336; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:41:04 GMT Message-ID: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:41:05 +0100 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wangzitao , "lime@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020308040401000003020000" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Z1WVeIvCu9Nb8la5Qbje1HsOR34 Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:41:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020308040401000003020000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18/09/2014 04:05, wangzitao wrote: > > Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and > planning > tools. > > SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of > routing, or of an application layer broker. > > > SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? > > [Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application protocol > provide a good functionality for network discovery. > > Also I agree configuration is a good example of administration. > Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs > to be configured and where it is. > > Doesn't this come from a network management database, or in these > modern times the orchestrator. > > Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum > of full manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting > the discovery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network. > > - Stewart > > Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am wondering if routing > protocol or application protocol can provide a capability to allow > management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path > for a specific flow? > Yes and no. BGP-LS (for example) is taking on the task of providing connectivity and path information to the orchestrator, I am assuming that is part of the management plane, although that is something that bares thought in understanding the bounds of network management vs path imposition. Then there is the degree to which the path is explicit (SR and RSVP) vs implicitly known (classic routing single path, where algorithms + shared data give the same answer) vs fully delegated (local choice of an ECMP path or IPFRR). > It would be interesting to see management entity to support such > capability? It looks routing protocol doesn't support such capability. > Can autonomic networking provide such capability? > I don't quite understand this question. - Stewart > > > - Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime -- For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html --------------020308040401000003020000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 18/09/2014 04:05, wangzitao wrote:

    Examples of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing, or of an application layer broker.


SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration?

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application protocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of administration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

Doesn't this come from a network management database, or in these modern times the orchestrator.

Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of full manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discovery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network.

- Stewart

Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am wondering if routing protocol or application protocol can provide a capability to allow management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path for a specific flow?

Yes and no.

BGP-LS (for example) is taking on the task of providing connectivity and path information to the orchestrator, I am assuming that is part of the management plane, although that is something that bares thought in understanding the bounds of network management vs path imposition. Then there is the degree to which the path is explicit (SR and RSVP) vs implicitly known (classic routing single path, where algorithms + shared data give the same answer) vs fully delegated (local choice of an ECMP path or IPFRR).

It would be interesting to see management entity to support such capability? It looks routing protocol doesn’t support such capability. Can autonomic networking provide such capability?

I don't quite understand this question.

- Stewart


-    Michael


_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime



-- 
For corporate legal information go to:

http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html
--------------020308040401000003020000-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 04:09:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6811A0081 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EoTGzi_JnAId for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83A0C1A8766 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f182.google.com with SMTP id hn15so1023438igb.3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:08:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=W8aWxUd4QBRDCAw927PsjnjZfLuZB3tuRng1PgqJETo=; b=ndmo7sBObPJC3iFfi1WZI0UcM6HJmWQKEbSfKutYZo84cru5Y3D33yJqn0QhZzFGUf PHKri1X4J9LwuNoXOnxKHLy6f54I2LxM2zEsBl4ZzJpVTjwfUWw80JFZ32wpGORBMmyx YnLIQXIdt1f27aiTsQQxoAQPNIvIo74DP6JUxRuKGdBIQYiwU/ONVtsZPDcZDpiW6f26 5qVf6kCLDPfERH75RT1E9LCtXq8kVDpZjwEBH2dWDnRyL4sn3QEC9L+Z7HNvLTwAhecx b8j1/oGirHVdAyCGPFrz4xmkckwcryW5//5INWW+c/KL5vIQTmMZqaIoClLdH2vNMHJg yArw== X-Received: by 10.42.65.135 with SMTP id l7mr10908594ici.57.1411038536820; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.97.71] ([67.210.160.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ro6sm1948286igb.3.2014.09.18.04.08.56 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <541ABD49.3090407@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:08:57 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stbryant@cisco.com, wangzitao , "lime@ietf.org" References: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/nLChn_UrfMmfjatgFWJ4_SJRcXM Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:09:02 -0000 Below, marked [PTT]. Tom Taylor On 18/09/2014 6:41 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > On 18/09/2014 04:05, wangzitao wrote: ... >> Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am wondering if routing >> protocol or application protocol can provide a capability to allow >> management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path >> for a specific flow? >> > Yes and no. > > BGP-LS (for example) is taking on the task of providing connectivity and > path information to the orchestrator, I am assuming that is part of the > management plane, although that is something that bares thought in > understanding the bounds of network management vs path imposition. Then > there is the degree to which the path is explicit (SR and RSVP) vs > implicitly known (classic routing single path, where algorithms + shared > data give the same answer) vs fully delegated (local choice of an ECMP > path or IPFRR). > > [PTT] I thought routing and path discovery was a function of the control plane rather than the management plane. Changing the location and path taken for the information doesn't really change its nature. On the other hand, backing away from this perhaps academic distinction, the topological information being collected is definitely the foundation for the more abstracted view centralized management needs to present. [PTT] Of course, we need equivalent functionality for the data link layer(s). I know that BGP extends to some of them, but certainly not all. And we also need to map the physical layer at the bottom. The nodes we have to identify in all these cases are the managed entities. [PTT] Like you said, a big database, and maybe parts are not discoverable but have to be entered manually. [PTT] In any event, the chartert currently puts discovery out of scope. ... From nobody Thu Sep 18 05:02:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996541A872D for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:02:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ljrCIcGhfBU for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 009951A01D0 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJP03330; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:02:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:02:44 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:02:31 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "stbryant@cisco.com" , wangzitao , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAcT4CAAK7w0P//gqGAgAFmu7CAAAA3UP//+4KAgACamlA= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:02:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E98A1nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/x_x92fYz2jQLdxdfjHWdHJntE98 Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:<= /b> Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Stewart Bryant
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C218=C8=D5 18:41
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: wangzitao; lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

On 18/09/2014 04:05, wangzitao = wrote:

=     Examples of "administration" tools are network= discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing= , or of an application layer broker.

=
SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? <= /span>

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application pr= otocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of admini= stration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

Doesn't this come from a network management da= tabase, or in these modern times the orchestrator.

Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of fu= ll manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discov= ery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network.<= br>
- Stewart

Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am w= ondering if routing protocol or application protocol can provide a capabili= ty to allow management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path for a specific flow?

Yes and no.

BGP-LS (for example) is taking on the task of providing connectivity and pa= th information to the orchestrator, I am assuming that is part of the manag= ement plane, although that is something that bares thought in understanding= the bounds of network management vs path imposition. Then there is the degree to which the path is explicit= (SR and RSVP) vs implicitly known (classic routing single path, where algo= rithms + shared data give the same answer) vs fully delegated (local ch= oice of an ECMP path or IPFRR).

[Qin]: I t= hink BGP-LS focus on L3 Topology discovery.

Can BGP-LS= is used to discovery L2 to L3 connectivity if L2 managed entity is connect= ing to L3 management entity.  I think management plane based solution can handle various type of network devices at different layer, in= cluding L2/L3/L4/L7 switch, router, host and discover connectivity between = these devices. SNMP based solution can be one example to do multi-layer net= work topology discovery.



It would be interesting to see management entity to= support such capability? It looks routing protocol doesn=A1=AFt support su= ch capability. Can autonomic networking provide such capability?

I don't quite understand this q= uestion.

 = ;

[Qin]: My = interpretation to what he said is management entity can not use routing pro= tocol(e.g.,BGP-LS) to discover connectivity between L2 managed element and L3 managed element.



- Stewart

= 

-    Michael




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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845E98A1nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 05:18:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566141A0376 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:18:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Molw6uC5iBhS for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B602B1A03BA for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJP04901; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:18:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEML407-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.94) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:18:13 +0100 Received: from SZXEML501-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.124]) by szxeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.94]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:18:02 +0800 From: wangzitao To: "stbryant@cisco.com" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0dWFhSWLlAF/jEKfiH6ORwrzwZwEf/0ggAAcT4CAAK7w0P//gqGAgAFmu7CAAAA3UP//+4KAgACebwA= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:18:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <541AB6C1.6040703@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.131] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E578szxeml501mbxchina_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/UfPMYxf01VUrzlCJrEJOf5eIs08 Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:18:18 -0000 --_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E578szxeml501mbxchina_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TXkgcG9pbnQgaXMgZGlzY292ZXJpbmcgYSBzZXQgb2YgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBlbGVtZW50IGluIHRo ZSBwYXRoIGlzIG5vdCBzYW1lIGFzIGRpc2NvdmVyaW5nIGEgc2V0IG9mIG1hbmFnZWQgZWxlbWVu dHMgaW4gdGhlIHBhdGguDQpCZWNhdXNlIG5vdCBhbGwgdGhlIGZvcndhcmRpbmcgZWxlbWVudCBu ZWVkcyB0byBiZSBtYW5hZ2VkLiBXZSBtYXkgY29uZmlndXJlIHNvbWUgb2YgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBl bGVtZW50cyBhcyBtYW5hZ2VkIGVsZW1lbnRzLg0KU28gd2hvIHdpbGwgYmUgbWFuYWdlZCBlbGVt ZW50cyBhbmQgd2hlcmUgdGhleSBhcmUsIHlvdSBzdGlsbCBkb26hr3Qga25vdyBiYXNlZCBvbiBu ZXR3b3JrIHRvcG9sb2d5IGdhdGhlcmVkIHVzaW5nIEJHUC1MUw0KdW5sZXNzIEJHUC1MUyBpcyBl eHRlbmRlZCB0byBpbmRpY2F0ZSB0aGF0Lg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzIQ0KLU1pY2hhZWwNCreivP7Iyzog U3Rld2FydCBCcnlhbnQgW21haWx0bzpzdGJyeWFudEBjaXNjby5jb21dDQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAx NMTqOdTCMTjI1SAxODo0MQ0KytW8/sjLOiB3YW5neml0YW87IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6 IFJlOiBbTGltZV0gTElNRSBDaGFydGVyIFByb3Bzb3NhbCB2MQ0KDQpPbiAxOC8wOS8yMDE0IDA0 OjA1LCB3YW5neml0YW8gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgRXhhbXBsZXMgb2YgImFkbWluaXN0cmF0aW9uIiB0 b29scyBhcmUgbmV0d29yayBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgYW5kIHBsYW5uaW5nDQogICAgdG9vbHMuDQoNClNC PiBSZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIFJGQzYyOTEsIG5ldHdvcmsgZGlzY292ZXJ5IGlzIG5vcm1hbGx5IHBh cnQgb2Ygcm91dGluZywgb3Igb2YgYW4gYXBwbGljYXRpb24gbGF5ZXIgYnJva2VyLg0KDQpTQj4g U3VyZWx5IHRoZSBub3JtYWwgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBvZiBhZG1pbiBpcyBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uPw0K W1Fpbl06IFllcywgSSBhZ3JlZSByb3V0aW5nIHByb3RvY29sIG9yIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIHByb3Rv Y29sIHByb3ZpZGUgYSBnb29kIGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHkgZm9yIG5ldHdvcmsgZGlzY292ZXJ5Lg0K QWxzbyBJIGFncmVlIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gaXMgYSBnb29kIGV4YW1wbGUgb2YgYWRtaW5pc3Ry YXRpb24uIEJlZm9yZSBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uLCBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IGZ1bmN0aW9uIG5lZWRzIHRv IGtub3cgd2hvIG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgYW5kIHdoZXJlIGl0IGlzLg0KRG9lc24n dCB0aGlzIGNvbWUgZnJvbSBhIG5ldHdvcmsgbWFuYWdlbWVudCBkYXRhYmFzZSwgb3IgaW4gdGhl c2UgbW9kZXJuIHRpbWVzIHRoZSBvcmNoZXN0cmF0b3IuDQoNClBlcmhhcHMgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBn byB1cCBhIGxldmVsIGFuZCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdoZXJlIG9uIHRoZSBzcGVjdHJ1bSBvZiBmdWxs IG1hbnVhbCBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIHRvIGF1dG9ub21pYyBuZXR3b3JraW5nIHdlIGFyZSB0YXJn ZXRpbmcgdGhlIGRpc2NvdmVyeSwgYW5kIHdoYXQgaXMgaW4gYW5kIG91dCBvZiBzY29wZSBpbiBh ICJ0cmFkaXRpb25hbCIgbmV0d29yay4NCg0KLSBTdGV3YXJ0DQpJbnRlcmVzdGluZyBkaXNjdXNz aW9uIG9uIG5ldHdvcmsgZGlzY292ZXJ5LiBJIGFtIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiByb3V0aW5nIHByb3Rv Y29sIG9yIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIHByb3RvY29sIGNhbiBwcm92aWRlIGEgY2FwYWJpbGl0eSB0byBh bGxvdyBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IGVudGl0eSBkaXNjb3ZlciBhIHNldCBvZiBtYW5hZ2VkIGVsZW1lbnRz IGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIHBhdGggZm9yIGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgZmxvdz8NClllcyBhbmQgbm8uDQoNCkJH UC1MUyAoZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUpIGlzIHRha2luZyBvbiB0aGUgdGFzayBvZiBwcm92aWRpbmcgY29u bmVjdGl2aXR5IGFuZCBwYXRoIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHRvIHRoZSBvcmNoZXN0cmF0b3IsIEkgYW0g YXNzdW1pbmcgdGhhdCBpcyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IHBsYW5lLCBhbHRob3VnaCB0 aGF0IGlzIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IGJhcmVzIHRob3VnaHQgaW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyB0aGUg Ym91bmRzIG9mIG5ldHdvcmsgbWFuYWdlbWVudCB2cyBwYXRoIGltcG9zaXRpb24uIFRoZW4gdGhl cmUgaXMgdGhlIGRlZ3JlZSB0byB3aGljaCB0aGUgcGF0aCBpcyBleHBsaWNpdCAoU1IgYW5kIFJT VlApIHZzIGltcGxpY2l0bHkga25vd24gKGNsYXNzaWMgcm91dGluZyBzaW5nbGUgcGF0aCwgd2hl cmUgYWxnb3JpdGhtcyArIHNoYXJlZCBkYXRhIGdpdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgYW5zd2VyKSB2cyBmdWxs eSBkZWxlZ2F0ZWQgKGxvY2FsIGNob2ljZSBvZiBhbiBFQ01QIHBhdGggb3IgSVBGUlIpLg0KDQoN Ckl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHRvIHNlZSBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IGVudGl0eSB0byBzdXBw b3J0IHN1Y2ggY2FwYWJpbGl0eT8gSXQgbG9va3Mgcm91dGluZyBwcm90b2NvbCBkb2VzbqGvdCBz dXBwb3J0IHN1Y2ggY2FwYWJpbGl0eS4gQ2FuIGF1dG9ub21pYyBuZXR3b3JraW5nIHByb3ZpZGUg c3VjaCBjYXBhYmlsaXR5Pw0KSSBkb24ndCBxdWl0ZSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoaXMgcXVlc3Rpb24u DQoNCi0gU3Rld2FydA0KDQoNCg0KDQotICAgIE1pY2hhZWwNCg0KDQoNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCg0KTGltZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QN Cg0KTGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86TGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZz4NCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9saW1lDQoNCg0KDQoNCi0tDQoNCkZvciBjb3Jwb3JhdGUg bGVnYWwgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gZ28gdG86DQoNCg0KDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNpc2NvLmNvbS93ZWIv YWJvdXQvZG9pbmdfYnVzaW5lc3MvbGVnYWwvY3JpL2luZGV4Lmh0bWwNCg0KDQo= --_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E578szxeml501mbxchina_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My point i= s discovering a set of forwarding element in the path is not same as discov= ering a set of managed elements in the path.

Because no= t all the forwarding element needs to be managed. We may configure some of = forwarding elements as managed elements.

So who wil= l be managed elements and where they are, you still don=A1=AFt know based o= n network topology gathered using BGP-LS

unless BGP= -LS is extended to indicate that.

 = ;

Regards!

-Michael

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C218=C8=D5 18:41
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: wangzitao; lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

On 18/09/2014 04:05, wangzitao = wrote:

=     Examples of "administration" tools are network= discovery and planning
    tools.

SB> Regardless of RFC6291, network discovery is normally part of routing= , or of an application layer broker.

=
SB> Surely the normal definition of admin is configuration? <= /span>

[Qin]: Yes, I agree routing protocol or application pr= otocol provide a good functionality for network discovery.

Also I agree configuration is a good example of admini= stration. Before configuration, management function needs to know who needs to be configured and where it is.

Doesn't this come from a network managem= ent database, or in these modern times the orchestrator.

Perhaps we need to go up a level and understand where on the spectrum of fu= ll manual configuration to autonomic networking we are targeting the discov= ery, and what is in and out of scope in a "traditional" network.<= br>
- Stewart

Interesting discussion on network discovery. I am w= ondering if routing protocol or application protocol can provide a capabili= ty to allow management entity discover a set of managed elements in the same path for a specific flow?

Yes and no.

BGP-LS (for example) is taking on the task of providing connectivity and pa= th information to the orchestrator, I am assuming that is part of the manag= ement plane, although that is something that bares thought in understanding= the bounds of network management vs path imposition. Then there is the degree to which the path is explicit= (SR and RSVP) vs implicitly known (classic routing single path, where algo= rithms + shared data give the same answer) vs fully delegated (local ch= oice of an ECMP path or IPFRR).


It would be interesting to see management entity to= support such capability? It looks routing protocol doesn=A1=AFt support su= ch capability. Can autonomic networking provide such capability?

I don't quite understand this q= uestion.

- Stewart

= 

-    Michael




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--_000_E6BC9BBCBCACC246846FC685F9FF41EAB9E578szxeml501mbxchina_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 07:23:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350F41A0456 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ecmZ2V7XVs1c for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07D851A882D for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 07:23:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12299; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411050184; x=1412259784; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=f76n5ORhSjlIVjGVXpqq3O8y0RRSi+Xswexdvx0tDDs=; b=MMsqsmJewSPNfPnACYAyFtcQFZok7d1pfqBP//Vh5fRpQ1Iks2aZxUPK EwPzbUfRjRSlI6AYILUpANQ5VaP7z6hCW2Pzj2NghalNkyyAkFEJV1TXg lMwfgHuTiT5LAH6IExKh8ZuZEVGWFdiMUoCUBKo+8iIVEy5hnIzlAzGt8 g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhwFAN7pGlStJV2b/2dsb2JhbABggkcjI4Eu0RyBChYBeYQKeRIBGmYXEAQBDSCIIwHCIQEXjx9YhFIFkU6KYV2VSINegXJCgQIBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,547,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="356293418" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Sep 2014 14:23:03 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8IEN3xR031833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:23:03 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([fe80::8c1c:7b85:56de:ffd1]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:23:02 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHP00wOLRziCjTEaUy0COeRcxR4lQ== Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:23:02 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.4.140807 x-originating-ip: [64.102.157.8] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D04062F16896Dglobalservicesgenciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Wm2SW7mdqiHCGiRGTowk_mukzfQ Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" Subject: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:23:07 -0000 --_000_D04062F16896Dglobalservicesgenciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, LIME, Nagendra and I had also been working on draft charter text for the LIME eff= ort. We figured we would contribute this draft write-up to the discussion, for y= our consideration. Please find the full draft text below, and feel free to shoot holes at it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ LIME Proposed Charter: Network Operators have been increasingly challenged with operational and ma= nagement limitations in a typical network due to siloed Operations, Adminis= tration, and Maintenance (OAM) in different layers, and a lacking architect= ural approach. Varying business needs results in different transport and da= ta link technologies that developed their own unique OAM functionality for = Fault Detection, Fault Isolation, Performance Management, and/or Continuity= and Connectivity Management. For example, traditional IP networks have leveraged ICMP tools for fault de= tection and isolation, but ICMP, even with extensions, is inadequate for th= e full breath of MPLS networks. While LSP Ping makes for a very useful tool= for MPLS networks, certain characteristics of MPLS services like L2VPNs re= sult in VCCV. With the introduction of virtualization, TRILL and NVO3 are additional tran= sports, which raise new OAM tools with unique features that satisfy the con= straints of relevant transport technology. To add to this, Service Functio= n Chaining introduces another layer known as service layer, with its own OA= M requirements. The focus of the work in this Working Group is to emphasize the associated = operational challenges in consistently handling end-to-end OAM and document= s a unified OAM approach to perform consistent end-to-end Fault Management,= Performance Management and Change Management that leverages and correlates= information collected across different layers. This consistent approach in= cludes configuration, reporting, and presentation of OAM, is meaningful acr= oss different layers and protocols (e.g., data link and transport), and is = applicable for Fault Management, Performance Management and Configuration M= anagement. . In addition, the use of YANG as modeling language for centrali= zed management will be considered. It also provides a set of guidelines to = flexibly accommodate any new data link or transport protocols. The scope of this working group will be limited to commence work items that= are beneficial to Network Operators by helping reduce Operational expendit= ures and simply network management. It also supports a unified way to accom= modate any new upcoming OAM protocols in an existing or a new layer. It fur= ther gauges the benefits of network programmability and adds any relevant w= ork items. Specifically, the scope of this work group is chartered to deliver the foll= owing: 1. Problem Statement: This document will provide a summary of problem space= to be addressed by this working group. It further analyzes the benefits an= d gaps in complementing network programmability from centralized manner. In= addition, the working group will normalize the nomenclature and definition= for unified OAM approach. 2. Use-cases: This document lists different use-cases at a high level that = benefits with unified OAM approach along with the gaps. The use cases can b= e related to Fault Management, Performance Management and/or Change Managem= ent. 3. Architecture: This document will provide a detailed description of build= ing blocks that satisfies operation and management constraints in different= layers. It also provides a set of guidelines for future OAM development, t= o maximize consistency. The initial scope is restricted to a single adminis= trative domain and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as = and when a need rises. 4. Modeling Language: This document is a compliment document for Architectu= re document but provides a detailed description of the use of YANG as model= ing language for centralized management. 5. Operational Solutions: This document will list the unified OAM data mod= els. In addition, it also documents the relevant API extensions to augment = network programmability. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks, Carlos & Nagendra. --_000_D04062F16896Dglobalservicesgenciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3FC0D6A686E17A4DB31662CB4D38A461@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, LIME,

Nagendra and I had also been working on draft charter text for the LIME eff= ort.

We figured we would contribute this draft write-up to the discussion, for y= our consideration.

Please find the full draft text below, and feel free to shoot holes at it.<= /div>

~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~

LIME Proposed Charter:=

Network Operators have been increasi= ngly challenged with operational and management limitations in a typical ne= twork due to siloed Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in di= fferent layers, and a lacking architectural approach. Varying business needs results in different transport and data l= ink technologies that developed their own unique OAM functionality for Faul= t Detection, Fault Isolation, Performance Management, and/or Continuity and= Connectivity Management.

For example, traditional IP networks= have leveraged ICMP tools for fault detection and isolation, but ICMP, eve= n with extensions, is inadequate for the full breath of MPLS networks. Whil= e LSP Ping makes for a very useful tool for MPLS networks, certain characteristics of MPLS services like L2VP= Ns result in VCCV. 

With the introduction of virtualizat= ion, TRILL and NVO3 are additional transports, which raise new OAM tools wi= th unique features that satisfy the constraints of relevant transport techn= ology.  To add to this, Service Function Chaining introduces another layer known as service layer, with its own OAM= requirements.

The focus of the work in this Workin= g Group is to emphasize the associated operational challenges in consistent= ly handling end-to-end OAM and documents a unified OAM approach to perform = consistent end-to-end Fault Management, Performance Management and Change Management that leverages and correlates= information collected across different layers. This consistent approach in= cludes configuration, reporting, and presentation of OAM, is meaningful acr= oss different layers and protocols (e.g., data link and transport), and is applicable for Fault Management, P= erformance Management and Configuration Management. . In addition, the use = of YANG as modeling language for centralized management will be considered.= It also provides a set of guidelines to flexibly accommodate any new data link or transport protocols. 

The scope of this working group will= be limited to commence work items that are beneficial to Network Operators= by helping reduce Operational expenditures and simply network management. = It also supports a unified way to accommodate any new upcoming OAM protocols in an existing or a new layer. = It further gauges the benefits of network programmability and adds any rele= vant work items.

Specifically, the scope of this work= group is chartered to deliver the following:

1. Problem Statement: This document = will provide a summary of problem space to be addressed by this working gro= up. It further analyzes the benefits and gaps in complementing network prog= rammability from centralized manner. In addition, the working group will normalize the nomenclature and definit= ion for unified OAM approach.

2. Use-cases: This document lists di= fferent use-cases at a high level that benefits with unified OAM approach a= long with the gaps. The use cases can be related to Fault Management, Perfo= rmance Management and/or Change Management.

3. Architecture: This document will = provide a detailed description of building blocks that satisfies operation = and management constraints in different layers. It also provides a set of g= uidelines for future OAM development, to maximize consistency. The initial scope is restricted to a single admin= istrative domain and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future a= s and when a need rises.

4. Modeling Language: This document = is a compliment document for Architecture document but provides a detailed = description of the use of YANG as modeling language for centralized managem= ent. 

5. Operational Solutions:  This= document will list the unified OAM data models. In addition, it also docum= ents the relevant API extensions to augment network programmability.=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks,

Carlos & Nagendra.

--_000_D04062F16896Dglobalservicesgenciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Sep 18 11:11:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79051A888E for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYQOQPHmaWRM for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x235.google.com (mail-ie0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3003B1A888B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f181.google.com with SMTP id tr6so1804006ieb.12 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:11:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ScM0aQIUiBN33LMdmrVdRHHV0otRF9qWZM5E9isKrAg=; b=SG8o3DdvftkosJb2EnK8xgnNtWtsdWP8Y7OcwcpnnAYrAqfz/WmNe6BFrFDpiRDTDb 14HqS+EC3vvWYSBg/Egr/YZNQErWT0FIpb25nnIePU3MLw87THBAop1Ur1L3Jg8uXrmd wFGhxHm1qzYB6avfKxl7/v9JkipgA9ZpMfCfSxqaIGgetqhrQsYVzRdM44y9WVryPO45 TPYK9ALlfsGZerTBlb1Y/PnHyy+VFA5HJA+bkAjvjP4q1wVbq2q39bcL1q3dZi97Okpy wT8EV6lZT9YAhgokE2SUPjKprc+9v4h2+cdxM31n10MmthHAVwm55Lv1saJxZBWXRoiM 8KZA== X-Received: by 10.50.23.78 with SMTP id k14mr31933643igf.15.1411063878620; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.97.156] ([67.210.160.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c7sm2765327igx.11.2014.09.18.11.11.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Sep 2014 11:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <541B2046.2050506@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:11:18 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , "lime@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/SW-1p24mTZKkKgimlx6BD4N9hWg Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:11:22 -0000 I like the text (with a few reservations marked with [PTT] below), right up until you get to the deliverables. These seem to go beyond our ADs' direction. If I have misinterpreted that direction in the other charter proposal, I will be happy to be corrected. Tom Taylor On 18/09/2014 10:23 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > Hi, LIME, > > Nagendra and I had also been working on draft charter text for the > LIME effort. > > We figured we would contribute this draft write-up to the discussion, > for your consideration. > > Please find the full draft text below, and feel free to shoot holes > at it. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > LIME Proposed Charter: > > Network Operators have been increasingly challenged with operational > and management limitations in a typical network due to siloed > Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in different > layers, and a lacking architectural approach. Varying business needs > results in different transport and data link technologies that > developed their own unique OAM functionality for Fault Detection, > Fault Isolation, Performance Management, and/or Continuity and > Connectivity Management. > > For example, traditional IP networks have leveraged ICMP tools for > fault detection and isolation, but ICMP, even with extensions, is > inadequate for the full breath of MPLS networks. While LSP Ping makes > for a very useful tool for MPLS networks, certain characteristics of > MPLS services like L2VPNs result in VCCV. > > With the introduction of virtualization, TRILL and NVO3 are > additional transports, which raise new OAM tools with unique features > that satisfy the constraints of relevant transport technology. To > add to this, Service Function Chaining introduces another layer known > as service layer, with its own OAM requirements. > > The focus of the work in this Working Group is to emphasize the > associated operational challenges in consistently handling end-to-end > OAM and documents a unified OAM approach to perform consistent > end-to-end Fault Management, Performance Management and Change > Management that leverages and correlates information collected across > different layers. This consistent approach includes configuration, > reporting, and presentation of OAM, is meaningful across different > layers and protocols (e.g., data link and transport), and is > applicable for Fault Management, Performance Management and > Configuration Management. . [PTT] Why were Accounting but especially Security Management left out of this list? In addition, the use of YANG as modeling > language for centralized management will be considered. [PTT] I don't think the would-be WG has a choice in the matter -- as Dan Romascanu pointed out when it was the TIME list, other SDOs and WGs related to the technology concerned are already developing YANG modules. I'd leave this sentence out. It also > provides a set of guidelines to flexibly accommodate any new data > link or transport protocols. > > The scope of this working group will be limited to commence work > items that are beneficial to Network Operators by helping reduce > Operational expenditures and simply network management. It also > supports a unified way to accommodate any new upcoming OAM protocols > in an existing or a new layer. It further gauges the benefits of > network programmability and adds any relevant work items. [PTT] That last sentence would never get past the IESG -- too open-ended. And I'm not sure that anyone would listen to us if we said network programmability is a good or bad thing, which is what the first part of the sentence literally says. Maybe you meant to say that the current movement to network programmability will be a consideration in the work to be done. > > Specifically, the scope of this work group is chartered to deliver > the following: > > 1. Problem Statement: This document will provide a summary of problem > space to be addressed by this working group. It further analyzes the > benefits and gaps in complementing network programmability from > centralized manner. In addition, the working group will normalize the > nomenclature and definition for unified OAM approach. > > 2. Use-cases: This document lists different use-cases at a high level > that benefits with unified OAM approach along with the gaps. The use > cases can be related to Fault Management, Performance Management > and/or Change Management. > > 3. Architecture: This document will provide a detailed description of > building blocks that satisfies operation and management constraints > in different layers. It also provides a set of guidelines for future > OAM development, to maximize consistency. The initial scope is > restricted to a single administrative domain and may be extended for > inter-domain scenarios in future as and when a need rises. > > 4. Modeling Language: This document is a compliment document for > Architecture document but provides a detailed description of the use > of YANG as modeling language for centralized management. > > 5. Operational Solutions: This document will list the unified OAM > data models. In addition, it also documents the relevant API > extensions to augment network programmability. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Thanks, > > Carlos & Nagendra. > > > > > _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > From nobody Thu Sep 18 13:26:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C751C1A0462 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.153 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.153 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9BKrLVnEGFuq for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 825901A6ED9 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 13:26:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6560; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411071988; x=1412281588; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=bLXhRAUAkR4FfwTA3iLsESAebIhl+PZ9lCkthyTBKJs=; b=YA33wdzBaF94Kj+/l/7p5BWyU/aElahjc2zWnWDncop5VxgqrilEsV9k WaT4I9WvFKJiZ7vhf1NRMG8NJ3JbN7F6BFabRc5mXJnguqPuM4oKzNeb+ hcuucw29ZOs+GJNe65ePANVzf0JEi5tDQXQJX8BmL5HlsKQBNtEG3M+jO s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah4FAGo/G1StJV2T/2dsb2JhbABggw1TVwTJPQqHTQGBCxYBeYQEAQEEAQEBawsQAgEIEgYuIQYLFw4CBAENBRuIDwMRDbsNDYckARMEjUqBSwoHAVAHAoRJBZFOiS6CEI8GhkKDXmwBgQUJFyKBAgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,549,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="79236911" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Sep 2014 20:26:26 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8IKQQFa015956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:26:26 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.166]) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com ([173.37.183.79]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 15:26:26 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: Tom Taylor , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHP00wOLRziCjTEaUy0COeRcxR4lZwHhRwA///ipwA= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:26:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <541B2046.2050506@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <541B2046.2050506@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.2.140509 x-originating-ip: [10.21.64.64] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/C90GjhN4rhEeETLCujRnvbUfpnM Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:26:34 -0000 Hi Tom, Thanks for the response. Please see inline=8A On 9/18/14, 2:11 PM, "Tom Taylor" wrote: >I like the text (with a few reservations marked with [PTT] below), right >up until you get to the deliverables. These seem to go beyond our ADs' >direction. If I have misinterpreted that direction in the other charter >proposal, I will be happy to be corrected. We tried to segregate the deliverables into different document but tried to not deviate from the actual direction concluded in earlier AD email :) In short, the deliverables is scoped towards defining the problem along with potential use cases and discussing on data models and building blocks. Please point us if you see any discrepancy and accordingly can be modified. > > > >On 18/09/2014 10:23 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: >> Hi, LIME, >> >> Nagendra and I had also been working on draft charter text for the >> LIME effort. >> >> We figured we would contribute this draft write-up to the discussion, >> for your consideration. >> >> Please find the full draft text below, and feel free to shoot holes >> at it. >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> LIME Proposed Charter: >> >> Network Operators have been increasingly challenged with operational >> and management limitations in a typical network due to siloed >> Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in different >> layers, and a lacking architectural approach. Varying business needs >> results in different transport and data link technologies that >> developed their own unique OAM functionality for Fault Detection, >> Fault Isolation, Performance Management, and/or Continuity and >> Connectivity Management. >> >> For example, traditional IP networks have leveraged ICMP tools for >> fault detection and isolation, but ICMP, even with extensions, is >> inadequate for the full breath of MPLS networks. While LSP Ping makes >> for a very useful tool for MPLS networks, certain characteristics of >> MPLS services like L2VPNs result in VCCV. >> >> With the introduction of virtualization, TRILL and NVO3 are >> additional transports, which raise new OAM tools with unique features >> that satisfy the constraints of relevant transport technology. To >> add to this, Service Function Chaining introduces another layer known >> as service layer, with its own OAM requirements. >> >> The focus of the work in this Working Group is to emphasize the >> associated operational challenges in consistently handling end-to-end >> OAM and documents a unified OAM approach to perform consistent >> end-to-end Fault Management, Performance Management and Change >> Management that leverages and correlates information collected across >> different layers. This consistent approach includes configuration, >> reporting, and presentation of OAM, is meaningful across different >> layers and protocols (e.g., data link and transport), and is >> applicable for Fault Management, Performance Management and >> Configuration Management. . > >[PTT] Why were Accounting but especially Security Management left out of >this list? > >In addition, the use of YANG as modeling >> language for centralized management will be considered. > >[PTT] I don't think the would-be WG has a choice in the matter -- as Dan >Romascanu pointed out when it was the TIME list, other SDOs and WGs >related to the technology concerned are already developing YANG modules. >I'd leave this sentence out. Right. And I think it is better to define the decision of YANG as modeling language in the charter for clarity. I will modify it to reflect YANG as the logical choice instead of giving an imrepssion that it =B3will be considered=B2. Will that be fine?. > >It also >> provides a set of guidelines to flexibly accommodate any new data >> link or transport protocols. >> >> The scope of this working group will be limited to commence work >> items that are beneficial to Network Operators by helping reduce >> Operational expenditures and simply network management. It also >> supports a unified way to accommodate any new upcoming OAM protocols >> in an existing or a new layer. It further gauges the benefits of >> network programmability and adds any relevant work items. > >[PTT] That last sentence would never get past the IESG -- too >open-ended. And I'm not sure that anyone would listen to us if we said >network programmability is a good or bad thing, which is what the first >part of the sentence literally says. Maybe you meant to say that the >current movement to network programmability will be a consideration in >the work to be done. Yes, that is right. I think we can modify the statement to be more clear.=20 Thanks, Nagendra =20 >> >> Specifically, the scope of this work group is chartered to deliver >> the following: >> >> 1. Problem Statement: This document will provide a summary of problem >> space to be addressed by this working group. It further analyzes the >> benefits and gaps in complementing network programmability from >> centralized manner. In addition, the working group will normalize the >> nomenclature and definition for unified OAM approach. >> >> 2. Use-cases: This document lists different use-cases at a high level >> that benefits with unified OAM approach along with the gaps. The use >> cases can be related to Fault Management, Performance Management >> and/or Change Management. >> >> 3. Architecture: This document will provide a detailed description of >> building blocks that satisfies operation and management constraints >> in different layers. It also provides a set of guidelines for future >> OAM development, to maximize consistency. The initial scope is >> restricted to a single administrative domain and may be extended for >> inter-domain scenarios in future as and when a need rises. >> >> 4. Modeling Language: This document is a compliment document for >> Architecture document but provides a detailed description of the use >> of YANG as modeling language for centralized management. >> >> 5. Operational Solutions: This document will list the unified OAM >> data models. In addition, it also documents the relevant API >> extensions to augment network programmability. >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Thanks, >> >> Carlos & Nagendra. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >> From nobody Thu Sep 18 14:18:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E214B1A8A09 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:18:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oALKyFLflqYb for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sideburn.lancs.ac.uk (sideburn.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.17.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CF41A8A03 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 14:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex-1-ht0.lancs.ac.uk ([10.42.18.57] helo=EX-1-HT0.lancs.local) by sideburn.lancs.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XUj5v-0006bX-T2 for lime@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:18:27 +0100 Received: from EX-0-MB2.lancs.local ([fe80::9d98:936b:54d1:c531]) by EX-1-HT0.lancs.local ([fe80::d9e8:ad10:d075:a6b6%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 22:18:27 +0100 From: "King, Daniel" To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Consolidated Charter Text Proposal & Central Location for Tracking the Charter Versions Thread-Index: Ac/ThMkFgEece/CrRmCn/5yu25PjRQ== X-VoiceMessageDuration: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:18:27 +0000 Message-ID: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A323668FE@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [176.227.128.84] x-iss-local-domain: 1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A323668FEEX0MB2lancsloca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/VbZTDPY4yCZ5mPlMKHLgRUzPnJs Subject: [Lime] Consolidated Charter Text Proposal & Central Location for Tracking the Charter Versions X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:18:32 -0000 --_002_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A323668FEEX0MB2lancsloca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks,=20 There is a lot of energy and some great ideas around the proposed charter f= or LIME, but it is also moving a bit too fast for me to keep track of the c= hanges! Therefore, I have created a GitHub location at https://github.com/d= anielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal to track the versions. The first version ("Consolidated" and attached) checked in is a four-way me= rge. It attempts to pull together: - The latest charter proposal from Qin and earlier proponents of LIME - The alternative proposal from Carlos and Nagendra - Numerous comments on the list - My own thoughts. Whilst editing, I have been driven to: - Cut the verbiage (hopefully without removing anything folks think is crit= ical) - Clarify and reduce the actual deliverables - Present the material in a way that might be more acceptable to the IESG - Explain the relationship with other SDOs and technology owners. Of course, this will be an iterative process. Further discussion on this li= st is essential and it is completely OK to entirely reject my proposal, but= I hope this initiative helps coordinate the discussions and provides a cen= tral location for charter versions, and the GitHub location is open for peo= ple to upload and propose significant updates or new versions for central s= torage.=20 Br, Dan.=20 --_002_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A323668FEEX0MB2lancsloca_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="LIME Consolidated Charter.txt" Content-Description: LIME Consolidated Charter.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="LIME Consolidated Charter.txt"; size=3737; creation-date="Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:09:36 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 18 Sep 2014 21:11:10 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TGF5ZXIgSW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgT0FNIE1hbmFnZW1lbnQgaW4gdGhlIE11bHRpLUxheWVyIEVudmly b25tZW50IChMSU1FKQ0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoNCiAgIE5ldHdvcmsgT3BlcmF0b3JzIGhh 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Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD181A8846 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.064 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.064 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.652, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fi_bXVdnVd4r for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC54E1A6EFC for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 18:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJP51809; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 01:20:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 02:20:57 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 09:20:50 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "King, Daniel" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Consolidated Charter Text Proposal & Central Location for Tracking the Charter Versions Thread-Index: Ac/ThMkFgEece/CrRmCn/5yu25PjRQAIMIVA Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 01:20:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A323668FE@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> In-Reply-To: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A323668FE@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 01:21:02 -0000 R3JlYXQsIFRoYW5rcyBEYW5pZWwncyB1cGRhdGUsIEkgc3VwcG9ydCBEYW5pZWwncyBwcm9wb3Nl ZCBDb25zb2xpZGF0ZWQgQ2hhcnRlciBUZXh0IFByb3Bvc2FsLg0KSSBlbmNvdXJhZ2UgcGVvcGxl IHN1Ym1pdCB1cGRhdGVzIGJhc2VkIGFyb3VuZCB0aGlzIHZlcnNpb24NCg0KQWxzbyBUaGFua3Mg Q2FybG9zIGFuZCBOYWdlbmRyYSB0byBwcm92aWRlIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgdmFsdWFibGUgaW5wdXQg dG8gdGhlIENoYXJ0ZXIuIFlvdXIgaW5wdXQgcmVtaW5kcyBtZSANCmZvcndhcmRpbmcgcGxhbmUg T0FNIGVmZm9ydCBvcmdhbml6ZWQgYnkgSUVTRyBhbmQgSUFCIGJlZm9yZS4gUm9uYWxkIG1heSB0 ZWxsIHVzIG1vcmUgYWJvdXQgdGhpcyBlZmZvcnQuDQoNCkkgYmVsaWV2ZSBwb3J0aW9uIG9mIHRl eHQgcHJvcG9zZWQgYnkgQ2FybG9zIGFuZCBOYXJnZXJhIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBpbmNvcnBvcmF0ZWQg aW50byB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0IENvbnNvbGlkYXRlZCBDaGFydGVyLg0KQnV0IEkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2Ft ZSBmZWVsaW5nIGFzIFRvbSB0aGF0IHdoYXQgeW91IHByb3Bvc2VkIG1heSBnbyBiZXlvbmQgd2hh dCBBRCB3YW50IHRvIHNlZSBhdCB0aGUgZmlyc3Qgc3RlcC4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcyENCi1RaW4NCi0t LS0t08q8/tStvP4tLS0tLQ0Kt6K8/sjLOiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGltZS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYu b3JnXSC0+rHtIEtpbmcsIERhbmllbA0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTTE6jnUwjE5yNUgNToxOA0KytW8 /sjLOiBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQrW98ziOiBbTGltZV0gQ29uc29saWRhdGVkIENoYXJ0ZXIgVGV4 dCBQcm9wb3NhbCAmIENlbnRyYWwgTG9jYXRpb24gZm9yIFRyYWNraW5nIHRoZSBDaGFydGVyIFZl cnNpb25zDQoNCkhpIEZvbGtzLCANCg0KVGhlcmUgaXMgYSBsb3Qgb2YgZW5lcmd5IGFuZCBzb21l IGdyZWF0IGlkZWFzIGFyb3VuZCB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgY2hhcnRlciBmb3IgTElNRSwgYnV0IGl0 IGlzIGFsc28gbW92aW5nIGEgYml0IHRvbyBmYXN0IGZvciBtZSB0byBrZWVwIHRyYWNrIG9mIHRo ZSBjaGFuZ2VzISBUaGVyZWZvcmUsIEkgaGF2ZSBjcmVhdGVkIGEgR2l0SHViIGxvY2F0aW9uIGF0 IGh0dHBzOi8vZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9kYW5pZWxraW5ndWsvbGltZS90cmVlL21hc3Rlci9jaGFydGVy LXByb3Bvc2FsIHRvIHRyYWNrIHRoZSB2ZXJzaW9ucy4NCg0KVGhlIGZpcnN0IHZlcnNpb24gKCJD b25zb2xpZGF0ZWQiIGFuZCBhdHRhY2hlZCkgY2hlY2tlZCBpbiBpcyBhIGZvdXItd2F5IG1lcmdl LiBJdCBhdHRlbXB0cyB0byBwdWxsIHRvZ2V0aGVyOg0KDQotIFRoZSBsYXRlc3QgY2hhcnRlciBw cm9wb3NhbCBmcm9tIFFpbiBhbmQgZWFybGllciBwcm9wb25lbnRzIG9mIExJTUUNCi0gVGhlIGFs dGVybmF0aXZlIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZyb20gQ2FybG9zIGFuZCBOYWdlbmRyYQ0KLSBOdW1lcm91cyBj b21tZW50cyBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdA0KLSBNeSBvd24gdGhvdWdodHMuDQoNCldoaWxzdCBlZGl0aW5n LCBJIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBkcml2ZW4gdG86DQoNCi0gQ3V0IHRoZSB2ZXJiaWFnZSAoaG9wZWZ1bGx5 IHdpdGhvdXQgcmVtb3ZpbmcgYW55dGhpbmcgZm9sa3MgdGhpbmsgaXMgY3JpdGljYWwpDQotIENs YXJpZnkgYW5kIHJlZHVjZSB0aGUgYWN0dWFsIGRlbGl2ZXJhYmxlcw0KLSBQcmVzZW50IHRoZSBt YXRlcmlhbCBpbiBhIHdheSB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IGJlIG1vcmUgYWNjZXB0YWJsZSB0byB0aGUgSUVT Rw0KLSBFeHBsYWluIHRoZSByZWxhdGlvbnNoaXAgd2l0aCBvdGhlciBTRE9zIGFuZCB0ZWNobm9s b2d5IG93bmVycy4NCg0KT2YgY291cnNlLCB0aGlzIHdpbGwgYmUgYW4gaXRlcmF0aXZlIHByb2Nl c3MuIEZ1cnRoZXIgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiB0aGlzIGxpc3QgaXMgZXNzZW50aWFsIGFuZCBpdCBp cyBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IE9LIHRvIGVudGlyZWx5IHJlamVjdCBteSBwcm9wb3NhbCwgYnV0IEkgaG9w ZSB0aGlzIGluaXRpYXRpdmUgaGVscHMgY29vcmRpbmF0ZSB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgYW5kIHBy b3ZpZGVzIGEgY2VudHJhbCBsb2NhdGlvbiBmb3IgY2hhcnRlciB2ZXJzaW9ucywgYW5kIHRoZSBH aXRIdWIgbG9jYXRpb24gaXMgb3BlbiBmb3IgcGVvcGxlIHRvIHVwbG9hZCBhbmQgcHJvcG9zZSBz aWduaWZpY2FudCB1cGRhdGVzIG9yIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9ucyBmb3IgY2VudHJhbCBzdG9yYWdlLiAN Cg0KQnIsIERhbi4gDQo= From nobody Sun Sep 21 19:41:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52341A030A for ; 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Mon, 22 Sep 2014 03:41:32 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:41:28 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP0kDZdfBzbT27FUWkQxhALbX8O5wGJuuAgAZQEpCAAAAVwA== Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 02:41:28 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845ED71Dnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/-wa_RSzL-dYo0kc9TCzO0634_Dg Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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Frank:

Thanks for= your interests and comments.

We have a = consolidated proposal that is built based on discussion on the list and upl= oaded to the github:

https://github.com/danielkin= guk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal

 = ;

Your comme= nts has been incorporated in, thanks!

 = ;

-Qin<= /o:p>

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xialiang (Frank)
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 6:10 PM
To: Qin Wu
Cc: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org; Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi Qin,

Thanks for= initiating and proposing this very valuable work to IETF!

I am very = interested in it and will contribute to it. If the Charter Design Team is n= ot too long, please add me~~

Now, I hav= e some comments and questions to the Charter Proposal for your consideratio= n. Please see inline:

 = ;

Thanks!

 = ;

B.R.<= /o:p>

Frank=

 = ;

From:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 9:34 AM
To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org
Cc: Tom Taylor
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1

 

Hi, all

Based on ADs suggestion on t= he Charter proposal, we design team write a Charter proposal after a few interna= l discussions.

 

Here is the initial version = of proposed charter for discussion on the list (See below or attached).

 

Layer Independent OAM Manage= ment in the Multi-Layer Environment (LIME)

----------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------

Operations, Administration, = and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term that refers to tools created for ne= twork management.  Quoting from RFC 6291:

 

    Examples = of tools related to "operations" are performance monitoring<= /o:p>

    tools use= d for service level agreement (SLA) measurement, fault

    managemen= t tools used to monitor the health of nodes and links in the

    network, = and network provisioning tools.

 

    Examples = of "administration" tools are network discovery and planning=

    tools.

 

    Examples = of "maintenance" tools are implementations of connectivity

    check, lo= opback, link trace, and other tools that can be used to

    monitor a= nd diagnose failures in a network or network element.

 

An operator's network is mad= e up of layers -- consisting of OSI layers 1 through 3 in the first instanc= e, but made more complex by the emergence of network overlays such as NVO3 = [reference]. Looking along a particular layer, a path may be made up of multiple segments of differing network tec= hnologies, such as MPLS at one point, IP at another.

 

Traditionally, fault managem= ent and path maintenance have been achieved through a series of technology = and layer specific OAM protocols together with technology and layer specifi= c management interfaces. The latter have been based on SNMP MIB modules developed independently without coordi= nation between them and on proprietary interfaces for configuration. The li= mited scope of of each management interface has made it very difficult to:<= o:p>

[Frank] : I think we cannot say SNMP interfaces are proprietary interface= s, they have been standardized. So, I suggest to use =A1=B0particular MIB m= odules=A1=B1 to replace =A1=B0proprietary interfaces=A1=B1

 

-- suppress large numbers of= unnecessary alarms and notifications

    related t= o defects and failures

-- quickly identify root cau= ses

-- monitor performance on an= end-to-end basis

-- correlate status defects,= faults and network failures between the

    different= layers to improve efficiency of defect and fault

= localization and provide better OAM visibility, since it has been necessary= to navigate the peculiarities of each individual technology specific manag= ement interface at each layer, then try to bring the results together into a coherent picture.

[Frank] : Should =A1=B0status defects=A1=B1 be replaced by =A1=B0status, = defects=A1=B1? One point maybe missed here is about the complexity of under= standing and developing a management MIB module for the operators because of each one is technology and layer specific.

 

There is now a move afoot to= replace the SNMP MIB modules with YANG modules instead. YANG is more flexi= ble and extensible than SMIv2, and can more safely be used for configuratio= n as well as information retrieval. This movement to YANG opens up the possibility of modeling OAM operations = management in a more uniform fashion and creating management interfaces tha= t are more friendly to a centralized management function than the present s= et.

 

The objective of the LIME in= itiative is to encourage consistent configuration, reporting, and presentat= ion for the OAM mechanisms used to manage the network, over all layers and = technologies. It will do this by preparing a set of guidelines for future OAM developments as its initial task. These= guidelines will cover OAM for all five FCAPS (fault, capacity, accounting,= performance, security) management areas, and will not be limited to Layer = 1-3 technologies but also consider management at higher OSI layers. Two initial cases will be considered:

[Frank] : I personally think the description about =A1=B0guidelines=A1=B1= is not very clear. What=A1=AFs the guidelines aim for? What=A1=AFs  a= bout the future OAM developments? What=A1=AFs the relation between them? Hoping it has a more clear description here.

 

(1) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates directly with the managed elements;

 

(2) where the centralized ma= nagement function communicates with a local management function.=

[Frank] : maybe need a explanation of what is a local management function= .

 

The first case takes priorit= y.

 

Development of one or more m= anagement information models may be undertaken if it is seen as necessary t= o move the work forward.

 

Out of scope initially, but = potentially within subsequent scope:

  -- development of any= YANG modules.

  -- development of a s= olution for mutual discovery of the centralized management function and the= managed elements or local managers.

 

Related work:

  -- ANIMA very interes= ted in the mutual discovery aspect

  -- Metro Ethernet For= um work on ...

 = ;

 = ;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C216=C8=D5 18:58
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to re= ad the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situati= on.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various di= scussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer= , in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the n= etwork path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechan= isms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there a= re already some efforts in that direction
5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for con= sistency sake

We also believe that there is sufficient inte= rest to start working on a charter proposal.

= Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845ED71Dnkgeml501mbschi_-- --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845ED71Dnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT00001.txt" Content-Description: ATT00001.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT00001.txt"; size=127; creation-date="Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:30:15 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:30:15 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkxpbWUgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQpMaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2xpbWUNCg== --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845ED71Dnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Mon Sep 22 12:01:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725071A1B4F for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.354 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G92yHL8FxASL for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BF71A1B4B for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1A877C296; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:01:16 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Message-ID: <20140922190116.GD6550@pfrc> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/H38vL_P-OUbLG9twLM1UWtLN5Wg Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar \(naikumar\)" , "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:01:22 -0000 This isn't specifically picking on Carlos' text, but provides a point for me to ask my question. On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 02:23:02PM +0000, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > The focus of the work in this Working Group is to emphasize the associated operational challenges in consistently handling end-to-end OAM and documents a unified OAM approach to perform consistent end-to-end Fault Management, Performance Management and Change Management that leverages and correlates information collected across different layers. This consistent approach includes configuration, reporting, and presentation of OAM, is meaningful across different layers and protocols (e.g., data link and transport), and is applicable for Fault Management, Performance Management and Configuration Management. . In addition, the use of YANG as modeling language for centralized management will be considered. It also provides a set of guidelines to flexibly accommodate any new data link or transport protocols. Is there any intention on specifically making the exercise of multi-path layer-X link elements specifically able to be covered for OAM purposes by LIME? Examples include Ethernet LAG and various layer-3 multipath. -- Jeff From nobody Mon Sep 22 18:12:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A5D1A03A8 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:12:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LLUUdHJIT-2c for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBAC51A039D for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMW91094; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 01:12:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:12:31 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:12:23 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Jeffrey Haas , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal Thread-Index: AQHP00wOLRziCjTEaUy0COeRcxR4lZwNAncAgADndQA= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 01:12:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140922190116.GD6550@pfrc> In-Reply-To: <20140922190116.GD6550@pfrc> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/_ALhh2xdZ9uJSKzpgXpHlaSnfHY Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar \(naikumar\)" , "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME -- Additional Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 01:12:37 -0000 SGksIEplZmY6DQpUaGUgbGF0ZXN0IHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhlIHByb3Bvc2VkIGNvbnNvbGlkYXRl ZCBjaGFydGVyIHBvc3RlZCBhdCANCjxodHRwczovL2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vZGFuaWVsa2luZ3VrL2xp bWUvdHJlZS9tYXN0ZXIvY2hhcnRlci1wcm9wb3NhbD4NCldoaWNoIGlzIGJ1aWx0IG9uIHRoZSBt YW55IHByb3Bvc2FscyBhbmQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgb24gdGhlIGxpc3Qgc28gZmFyLg0KDQpUaGUg bmV3IHVwZGF0ZSB3aWxsIGNvbWUgc29vbiBiYXNlZCBvbiBvZmZsaW5lIENoYXJ0ZXIgRGVzaWdu IHRlYW0gZGlzY3Vzc2lvbg0KUmVnYXJkaW5nIHlvdXIgcmFpc2VkIHF1ZXN0aW9uLCB0aGF0IGlz IGFuIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHF1ZXN0aW9uLiBNdWx0aS1wYXRoIE9BTSBpc3N1ZSBoYXMgYmVlbiBi cmllZmx5IGV4YW1pbmVkIGluIHRoZQ0Kc2VjdGlvbiA0LjMuMiBvZiBkcmFmdC1lZHByb3Atb3Bz YXdnLW11bHRpLWxheWVyLW9hbS1wcy4NCmh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFm dC1lZHByb3Atb3BzYXdnLW11bHRpLWxheWVyLW9hbS1wcy0wMQ0KDQpSZWdhcmRzDQotUWluDQot LS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCreivP7IyzogTGltZSBbbWFpbHRvOmxpbWUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZ10gtPqx7SBKZWZmcmV5IEhhYXMNCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE0xOo51MIyM8jVIDM6MDENCsrV vP7IyzogQ2FybG9zIFBpZ25hdGFybyAoY3BpZ25hdGEpDQqzrcvNOiBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlIChi Y2xhaXNlKTsgTmFnZW5kcmEgS3VtYXIgTmFpbmFyIChuYWlrdW1hcik7IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcN Ctb3zOI6IFJlOiBbTGltZV0gTElNRSAtLSBBZGRpdGlvbmFsIENoYXJ0ZXIgUHJvcG9zYWwNCg0K VGhpcyBpc24ndCBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgcGlja2luZyBvbiBDYXJsb3MnIHRleHQsIGJ1dCBwcm92 aWRlcyBhIHBvaW50IGZvciBtZSB0byBhc2sgbXkgcXVlc3Rpb24uIA0KDQpPbiBUaHUsIFNlcCAx OCwgMjAxNCBhdCAwMjoyMzowMlBNICswMDAwLCBDYXJsb3MgUGlnbmF0YXJvIChjcGlnbmF0YSkg d3JvdGU6DQo+IFRoZSBmb2N1cyBvZiB0aGUgd29yayBpbiB0aGlzIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAgaXMg dG8gZW1waGFzaXplIHRoZSBhc3NvY2lhdGVkIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGNoYWxsZW5nZXMgaW4gY29u c2lzdGVudGx5IGhhbmRsaW5nIGVuZC10by1lbmQgT0FNIGFuZCBkb2N1bWVudHMgYSB1bmlmaWVk IE9BTSBhcHByb2FjaCB0byBwZXJmb3JtIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgZW5kLXRvLWVuZCBGYXVsdCBNYW5h Z2VtZW50LCBQZXJmb3JtYW5jZSBNYW5hZ2VtZW50IGFuZCBDaGFuZ2UgTWFuYWdlbWVudCB0aGF0 IGxldmVyYWdlcyBhbmQgY29ycmVsYXRlcyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBjb2xsZWN0ZWQgYWNyb3NzIGRp ZmZlcmVudCBsYXllcnMuIFRoaXMgY29uc2lzdGVudCBhcHByb2FjaCBpbmNsdWRlcyBjb25maWd1 cmF0aW9uLCByZXBvcnRpbmcsIGFuZCBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gb2YgT0FNLCBpcyBtZWFuaW5nZnVs IGFjcm9zcyBkaWZmZXJlbnQgbGF5ZXJzIGFuZCBwcm90b2NvbHMgKGUuZy4sIGRhdGEgbGluayBh bmQgdHJhbnNwb3J0KSwgYW5kIGlzIGFwcGxpY2FibGUgZm9yIEZhdWx0IE1hbmFnZW1lbnQsIFBl cmZvcm1hbmNlIE1hbmFnZW1lbnQgYW5kIENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gTWFuYWdlbWVudC4gLiBJbiBh ZGRpdGlvbiwgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBZQU5HIGFzIG1vZGVsaW5nIGxhbmd1YWdlIGZvciBjZW50cmFs aXplZCBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IHdpbGwgYmUgY29uc2lkZXJlZC4gSXQgYWxzbyBwcm92aWRlcyBhIHNl dCBvZiBndWlkZWxpbmVzIHRvIGZsZXhpYmx5IGFjY29tbW9kYXRlIGFueSBuZXcgZGF0YSBsaW5r IG9yIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBwcm90b2NvbHMuDQoNCklzIHRoZXJlIGFueSBpbnRlbnRpb24gb24gc3Bl Y2lmaWNhbGx5IG1ha2luZyB0aGUgZXhlcmNpc2Ugb2YgbXVsdGktcGF0aCBsYXllci1YIGxpbmsg ZWxlbWVudHMgc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IGFibGUgdG8gYmUgY292ZXJlZCBmb3IgT0FNIHB1cnBvc2Vz IGJ5IExJTUU/ICBFeGFtcGxlcyBpbmNsdWRlIEV0aGVybmV0IExBRyBhbmQgdmFyaW91cyBsYXll ci0zIG11bHRpcGF0aC4NCg0KLS0gSmVmZg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTGltZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0K From nobody Mon Sep 22 19:54:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F801A19E4 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XAWDpGrEHa_m for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06B401A19E2 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJS79401; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:53:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:53:46 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:53:42 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4A//9XHZA= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:53:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/B3-HzgRHM3BvLQ71D7XaHA2opIE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:54:29 -0700 Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , "daniel@olddog.co.uk" , Jouni Korhonen , Huub van Helvoort , Gregory Mirsky , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar \(naikumar\)" , Tom Taylor , "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , Yuji Tochio , "Stewart Bryant \(stbryant\)" Subject: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:53:52 -0000 Hi, all: Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal=20 We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it.= =20 Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently di= scussed: 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-laye= r and multi-technology =20 Networks? Shall we publish it? The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide la= ter whether to publish use case document. 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM? We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM f= irst and DM should be based on this IM. 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be conside= red? It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as D= ML. We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to = the list soon. Regards! -Qin From nobody Mon Sep 22 20:40:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC691A19FB for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:40:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hMZXgcd9E4j for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FABF1A19EC for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJS82501; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:40:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 04:40:44 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:40:39 +0800 From: "Huangyihong (Rachel)" To: Jeffrey Haas Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 Thread-Index: AQHP1uAkk6bS1/hLWEiG4SpJlwm1Xg== Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:40:38 +0000 Message-ID: <51E6A56BD6A85142B9D172C87FC3ABBB8623A839@nkgeml501-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <20140922190116.GD6550@pfrc> In-Reply-To: <20140922190116.GD6550@pfrc> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.144] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/1h-qeY34rDM60QzqU-lKht1eycA Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Propsosal v1 X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:40:49 -0000 Hi Jeff, > Is there any intention on specifically making the exercise of multi-path = layer-X > link elements specifically able to be covered for OAM purposes by LIME? > Examples include Ethernet LAG and various layer-3 multipath. [Rachel]: I think it is not clear yet how centralized management can manipu= late load balancing technique. Isn't in-band mechanism better enough? Unless you are looking at end-to-end basis and think centralized managemen= t can: 1. provide both fault management and failure recovery 2. Help steering the traffic from a path having problems to other healthy o= nes. >=20 > -- Jeff >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Tue Sep 23 06:51:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A1D1A8028 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_hruzCi7RPZ for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 835AB1A7113 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJU08926; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 13:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:51:15 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:51:08 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Time] Editor's proposed draft of TIME/LIME Problem Statement Thread-Index: AQHPyalU4JMG30eSaUSJISQbv/6P1ZvzXEAAgAKCjwCAAixoYIAUY5cAgAJn4hA= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 13:51:07 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/z4aUOTfP0AS9hQCzxw00cskscZk Subject: Re: [Lime] [Time] Editor's proposed draft of TIME/LIME Problem Statement X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 13:51:20 -0000 Rm9yd2FyZCBKb3VuaSdzIGFuc3dlciBmcm9tIFRJTUUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Lg0KDQotLS0tLdPK vP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCreivP7IyzogSm91bmkgS29yaG9uZW4gW21haWx0bzpqb3VuaS5ub3NwYW1A Z21haWwuY29tXSANCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE0xOo51MIyMsjVIDE3OjA0DQrK1bz+yMs6IFFpbiBX dTsgVG9tIFRheWxvcg0Ks63LzTogdGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K1vfM4jogUmU6IFtUaW1lXSBFZGl0 b3IncyBwcm9wb3NlZCBkcmFmdCBvZiBUSU1FL0xJTUUgUHJvYmxlbSBTdGF0ZW1lbnQNCg0KDQpI aQ0KDQpEZWZpbml0ZWx5IHRvIGEgYmV0dGVyIGRpcmVjdGlvbi4NCg0KLSBKb3VuaQ0KDQo5Lzkv MjAxNCA0OjUzIEFNLCBRaW4gV3Uga2lyam9pdHRpOg0KPiBHb29kIHN0dWZmLCBJIGxvdmUgaXQu DQo+IFRhbGtlZCB3aXRoIFRvbSBlYXJsaWVyLCBJIHJlYWxseSBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSBtYW5hZ2Vt ZW50IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIGNhbiBwcm92aWRlIGFkYXB0YXRpb24gbGF5ZXIgYW5kIHNoaWVsZCBh bGwgdGhlIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyBzcGVjaWZpYyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUgdW5kZXJseWlu ZyBuZXR3b3JrIHRoYXQgaXMgdXNpbmcgZGlmZmVyZW50IE9BTSB0ZWNobm9sb2d5IGF0IHRoaXMg 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id AED321A8731 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:05:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5TTorI4Qi8U for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 134A01A8733 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:05:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13227; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411488309; 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+0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Xialiang (Frank)" References: <541817C4.6070100@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060502030006040605070309" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/XFY0UptMIZIZl8GASQy2mX-KEzg Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 16:05:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060502030006040605070309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank, See my reply in-line. > > Hi Benoit, > > I agree with your initial conclusion. > > I still have some further questions as inline, hoping to get your opinion. > > Thanks! > > B.R. > > Frank > > *From:*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Benoit Claise > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:58 PM > *To:* lime@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation > > Dear all, > > LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want > to read the archives). > As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current > situation. > > During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with > different audiences regarding this OAM initiative. > > Here is what we concluded: > 1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons. > 2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each > layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty > element in the network path > 3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM > mechanisms makes sense. > 4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that > there are already some efforts in that direction > > */[Frank] : Before we define any YANG model for this objective, does > it need some basic Information Model definition firstly? Is the > Information model in the scope of this work?/* > [benoit] This is a very good question. In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements: fault, configuration, accounting, performance? push/pull? OAM or not? ... Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG. The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go. So I'm wondering if, in _this __SPECIFIC _(potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise. > *//* > > > 5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome > for consistency sake > > */[Frank] : What kind of guidelines does here mean? Does the future > OAM developments only refer to OAM in management plane, or also > include OAM in data plane? I think maybe both./* > [Benoit] I would say both Regards, Benoit > > We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on > a charter proposal. > > Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs) > --------------060502030006040605070309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Frank,

See my reply in-line.

Hi Benoit,

I agree with your initial conclusion.

I still have some further questions as inline, hoping to get your opinion.

Thanks!

 

B.R.

Frank

 

From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:58 PM
To: lime@ietf.org
Subject: [Lime] OAM Initiative: Situation

 

Dear all,

LIME is a new mailing list, transitioning from TIME (in case you want to read the archives).
As one of the first email to the list, let me summarize the current situation.

During the last IETF meeting, there were various discussions with different audiences regarding this OAM initiative.

Here is what we concluded:
1. Building an OAM generic protocol is impractical for multiple reasons.
2. It is desirable to have an unified view of OAM information at each layer, in order to correlate information, and detect the faulty element in the network path
3. Consistent configuration, reporting, and presentation for the OAM mechanisms makes sense.
4. Using YANG as a modeling language is a logical choice. Note that there are already some efforts in that direction

[Frank] : Before we define any YANG model for this objective, does it need some basic Information Model definition firstly? Is the Information model in the scope of this work?

[benoit]
This is a very good question.
In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements:
    fault, configuration, accounting, performance?
    push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise.


5. A set of guidelines for future OAM developments would be welcome for consistency sake

[Frank] : What kind of guidelines does here mean?  Does the future OAM developments only refer to OAM in management plane, or also include OAM in data plane? I think maybe both.

[Benoit] I would say both

Regards, Benoit

We also believe that there is sufficient interest to start working on a charter proposal.

Regards, Joel and Benoit (OPS ADs)


--------------060502030006040605070309-- From nobody Tue Sep 23 14:12:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4241A01D8 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nXu0Oz0cgH-8 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1914A1A1AE0 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12870; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411506754; x=1412716354; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to; bh=kzCIMoMb6dV41uhLfaMSfJMPE5JcqAp5wVSRwY51vqM=; b=RzZE1lZMTdeKt/7PrGq3V90ulFYoIcJrXefuo7YBgq9l3+SB+KKNoN6D MerSTnozKRpXYVqPyj+ma/vV/LmJKyKinU+6JqCiRMRseveGzKBVOsGfO HMwX+rZzvxHRIXZokPfVQU3vIaoeI2nKV5bfzQNg4gw5kyFT1gg5NS4Wz U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArMEAPvgIVStJssW/2dsb2JhbABgg2FXiFzBAYdNAYEjAXqEBAEBAwF4BgsLDgQPFg8JAwIBAgE3DgYBDAgBAQULiCIIDcJzARePLwcBAS0phEsFj0KGUocIh0yOB4NkOy8BgQUJF4EkAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,582,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="182645759" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Sep 2014 21:12:31 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8NLCVTv009302; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:12:31 GMT Message-ID: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 23:12:31 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu , "lime@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080206010800040508010401" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/u-L0aGpJ_CTRpUEqsRzE93jRGQQ Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:12:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080206010800040508010401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, [I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed] Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point. See in line for some answers/questions. > Hi, all: > Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: > https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal > > We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. > Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed: > 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology > Networks? Shall we publish it? > The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document. That makes sense to me. > 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM? > We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM. For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements: fault, configuration, accounting, performance? push/pull? OAM or not? ... Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG. The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go. So I'm wondering if, in _this __SPECIFIC _(potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise. > 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered? > It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML. See point 2. What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction. Some more feedback: - "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across layers." I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of view". This work is about "OAM Management" after all. - "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic layer-independent and technology-independent configuration, reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions are not done here, where? In the respective WGs? Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects. - I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification: An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is within scope for the IETF. There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance 1. an architecture. Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on? I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other architectures. Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been there before) 2. the guidance. Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data plane should be mentioned. - "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and when a need rises" That's a good limitation IMO. - Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF? I'm sure MEF deals with OAM. - At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91) And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader community. Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation. Regards, Benoit > > We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to the list soon. > > Regards! > -Qin > . > --------------080206010800040508010401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear all,

[I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed]

Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point.
See in line for some answers/questions.

Hi, all:
Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below:
https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal 

We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. 
Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed:
1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology  
Networks? Shall we publish it?
The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document.
That makes sense to me.
2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM?
We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM.
For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html

In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements:
    fault, configuration, accounting, performance?
    push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise.
3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered?
It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML.
See point 2.
What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction.


Some more feedback:
- "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the
development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be
coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across
layers."
I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of view".
This work is about "OAM Management" after all.

- "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic
layer-independent and technology-independent configuration,
reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models
expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered."
So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions are not done here, where? In the respective WGs?
Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects.

- I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification:
An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by
other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying
existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is
within scope for the IETF.
There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance
1. an architecture.
Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on?
I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other architectures.
Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been there before)
2. the guidance.
Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data plane should be mentioned.

-  "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain
and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and
when a need rises"
That's a good limitation IMO.

- Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF?
I'm sure MEF deals with OAM.

- At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91)
And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader community.
Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation.

Regards, Benoit

We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to the list soon.

Regards!
-Qin
.

--------------080206010800040508010401-- From nobody Tue Sep 23 20:30:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01F61A8A4E for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 20:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.936 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.936 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBS_3zajWegy for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 20:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CFF11A8A45 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 20:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMY07912; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 03:30:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 04:30:16 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:30:08 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4A//9XHZAAQWu1gP//HtiA Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 03:30:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F0A9Enkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/36S7n6i72sN5tyh003zPRvdPdsU Cc: "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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Hi,

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:= Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Benoit Claise
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5;colo= r:windowtext"> 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C224=C8=D5 5:13
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team

 

= Dear all,

[I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many= recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed]

Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point= .
See in line for some answers/questions.

Hi, all:
Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposa=
l we posted below:
https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/mast=
er/charter-proposal 
 
We Charter Design team have a very good offline d=
iscussion yesterday on it. 
Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main =
issues are sufficiently discussed:
1. Shall we document use case for converged manag=
ement of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology  

Networks? Shall we publish it?<=
/pre>

The rough agreement is we should document use cas=
es and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document.

That makes sense to me.

 
2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall=
 we go directly define DM?
We reach agreement that we should develop both. T=
he step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM.

= For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html

In my charter reviews since I b= ecame OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model bef= ore specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to det= ermine their management requirements:
    fault, configuration, accounting, performance?
    push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for conf= iguration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the rig= ht way to go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary= to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convin= ced otherwise.

 = ;

[Qin]: Our= initial proposal is to develop YANG data model directly, but when we get t= o Charter Design team discussion, it seems a lot of people favor defining IM first, given the following

our propos= ed text in the charter:

=A1=B0harm= onising with generic models in other SDOs=A1=B1 .

Some of De= sign team concerned that without IM first, how to harmonize with other SDOs= for generic models? How to claim it is technology independent?<= /span>

I think ge= neric models in other SDOs are referred to ITU-T defined protocol independe= nt information model, however they are technology specific in the forwarding plane, e.g., IM can be applied to MPLS-TP, OTN, Etherent= technology, they are protocol neutral with respect to management protocols= (e.g., SNMP, NETCONF, etc.).

Other exam= ple is MEF related work, but IM,DM they defined are also Ethernet specific.

Here techn= ology independent is not management protocol independent but forwarding tec= hnology independent, I think.

I agree th= at LIME is specific to configuration  and we are chartered to do IETF = work and we should focus on YANG data model.

 = ;

 
3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) =
besides YANG to be considered?
It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF shoul=
d focus on using YANG as DML.

See point 2.
What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make se= nse to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I do= n't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that directi= on.

[Qin]: There are additi= onal comments from Carlos and Ron in the Design team discussion, they both = support using YANG as only data modeling language of the LIME.

Talking= with Dan, we also agree SNMP/MIB and NETCONF/YANG are competing for config= uration operation.

MAYbe w= e need to tweak the charter text proposal a little bit.


Some more feedback:
- "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the
development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be
coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across
layers."
I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of = view".
This work is about "OAM Management" after all.

 = ;

[Qin]Agree= .



- "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic
layer-independent and technology-independent configuration,
reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models
expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered."
So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to = have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions= are not done here, where? In the respective WGs?

[Qin]: Yes= , extension should be done in the respective WGs who play specific technolo= gy.


Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for = all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects.

 = ;

[Qin]:I th= ink it is the former, I think LIME should focus on technology independent o= r Generic YANG data model



- I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification:

An architecture for new IETF OA= M that can be used as guidance by
other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying
existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is
within scope for the IETF.

There are two distinct points: = architecture and guidance
1. an architecture.
Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model= on?
I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't t= hink this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other archite= ctures.

 = ;

[Qin]:Yes,= IEEE CFM mode or Y.1731 related model is a good example.


Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture&qu= ot;? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take yea= rs (yes, I've been there before)

 = ;

[Qin]: Goo= d suggestion, I think.


2. the guidance.
Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data = plane should be mentioned.

[Qin]: We = can cover both as you suggested.


-  "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative do= main
and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and
when a need rises"
That's a good limitation IMO.

- Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limite= d to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF?
I'm sure MEF deals with OAM.

[Qin]: Mis= s that, will fix it. Thanks.


- At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IET= F. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2= 014.html#IETF91)

 = ;

[Qin]: Don= e, Carlos and I have produced the initial version of BOF proposal and uploa= ded it to the wiki page.


And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation be= fore/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader commu= nity.
Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation.<= /span>

 = ;

[Qin]: Gre= at, that=A1=AFs our expectation. We will prepare for that.



Regards, Benoit

 
 
We will update our charter proposal based on the =
discussion and post it to the list soon.
 
Regards!
-Qin
.
 

 

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F0A9Enkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 24 04:37:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A564C1A891B for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 04:37:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C41oSaSiEaCg for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 04:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias245.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.245]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 720C81A898E for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 04:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.201]) by omfeda14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 710A32AC32B; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:37:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.30]) by omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4F959384078; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:36:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([169.254.2.39]) by OPEXCLILH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([10.114.31.30]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:36:57 +0200 From: To: Benoit Claise , Qin Wu , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: AQHP13MhDACz5jRcykyBxcP56GpNo5wQJtfQ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:36:57 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3OPEXCLILM23corpor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.9.24.100022 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/GRRrYHh1M02tjkKcnDgjvubUwuI Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:37:19 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3OPEXCLILM23corpor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benoit, I'm one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out explic= itly IMs in the charter. I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the merit = to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs discussion (wh= ich I would expect and encourage for this topic). Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have their "f= avorite" DM too. Cheers, Med De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise Envoy=E9 : mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13 =C0 : Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Dear all, [I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many reci= pients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed] Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point= . See in line for some answers/questions. Hi, all: Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently di= scussed: 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-laye= r and multi-technology Networks? Shall we publish it? The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide la= ter whether to publish use case document. That makes sense to me. 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM? We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM f= irst and DM should be based on this IM. For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need t= o have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially= for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements: fault, configuration, accounting, performance? push/pull? OAM or not? ... Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for conf= iguration there is a primary language: YANG. The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the rig= ht way to go. So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary to go = with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced oth= erwise. 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be conside= red? It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as D= ML. See point 2. What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make se= nse to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I do= n't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that directi= on. Some more feedback: - "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across layers." I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of view"= . This work is about "OAM Management" after all. - "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic layer-independent and technology-independent configuration, reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to = have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions= are not done here, where? In the respective WGs? Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for = all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects. - I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification: An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is within scope for the IETF. There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance 1. an architecture. Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on? I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't t= hink this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other archite= ctures. Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? Howev= er, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I= 've been there before) 2. the guidance. Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data = plane should be mentioned. - "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and when a need rises" That's a good limitation IMO. - Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited to = the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF? I'm sure MEF deals with OAM. - At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IET= F. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates= -2014.html#IETF91) And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation be= fore/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader commu= nity. Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation. Regards, Benoit We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to = the list soon. Regards! -Qin . --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3OPEXCLILM23corpor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Benoit,

 

I’m one of those who voiced during the= DT discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter.

 

I see a value in documenting IMs first as do= ing so, not only has the merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would= ease inter-SDOs discussion (which I would expect and encourage for this topic).

 

Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM b= ut other SDOs may have their “favorite” DM too.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De := Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise
Envoy=E9 : mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13
=C0 : Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in D= esign Team

 

Dear all,

[I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many= recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed]

Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point= .
See in line for some answers/questions.

Hi, all:
Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below:
https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal 
 
We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday o=
n it. 
Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficient=
ly discussed:
1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi=
-layer and multi-technology  
Networks? Shall we publish it?
The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will deci=
de later whether to publish use case document.

That makes sense to me.

 
2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly defin=
e DM?
We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop=
 IM first and DM should be based on this IM.

For the sake of compl= eteness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html

In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've be= en stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the da= ta model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their manageme= nt requirements:
    fault, configuration, accounting, performance?
    push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for conf= iguration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the rig= ht way to go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary= to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convin= ced otherwise.

 
3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be co=
nsidered?
It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG=
 as DML.

See point 2.
What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make se= nse to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I do= n't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that directi= on.


Some more feedback:
- "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the
development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be
coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across
layers."
I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of = view".
This work is about "OAM Management" after all.

- "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic
layer-independent and technology-independent configuration,
reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models
expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered."
So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to = have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions= are not done here, where? In the respective WGs?
Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for = all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects.

- I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification:

An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as= guidance by
other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying
existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is
within scope for the IETF.

There are two distinct points: architecture and guid= ance
1. an architecture.
Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model= on?
I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't t= hink this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other archite= ctures.
Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture&qu= ot;? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take yea= rs (yes, I've been there before)
2. the guidance.
Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data = plane should be mentioned.

-  "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative do= main
and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and
when a need rises"
That's a good limitation IMO.

- Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limite= d to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF?
I'm sure MEF deals with OAM.

- At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IET= F. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2= 014.html#IETF91)
And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation be= fore/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader commu= nity.
Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation.<= br>
Regards, Benoit

 
 
We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post i=
t to the list soon.
 
Regards!
-Qin
.
 

 

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3OPEXCLILM23corpor_-- From nobody Wed Sep 24 15:36:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6AA1A1A87 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6KQCA5OPS0d for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 986DA1A031F for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id x19so12436980ier.36 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:36:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jMclEalwcHeHkObPQ/uykd60pnsMHF4ltgY8p8mYkAo=; b=zQjXYUQMrOmIiSL4OkzER0r8JIlHZMV8aGCHipxSUO6EoWUp2ul9HsLfZjSDONuD29 bCqecm2purftIdH+/zqvrfqLJZuNA/dERLY/K02gzVvA8S9tEx5ygCQUJTVH8B+ekqz3 9KR6R9dchvQRLzDpPk5AhspREP4fHriZDTz4megJCiiHQzdIEod7uR4NTK4aH+jRMjya JbBQZ8/5xaXBZYCDPu859RB4jLswrXveTEHXyc2WxURZtspf//NXJLvKnEGSb4EzYCbP kpEqc+2XiuqX7PdhZMoNIDNXRGVUfWLkcWZChWDCqAhapSY9UnveN0CSyTIrJ1LyUNIc jQUw== X-Received: by 10.50.79.232 with SMTP id m8mr20599553igx.0.1411598202873; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.97.188] ([67.210.160.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a2sm5449378igx.4.2014.09.24.15.36.42 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5423477B.9040301@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 18:36:43 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , LIME References: <20140924202105.26209.81935.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140924202105.26209.81935.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140924202105.26209.81935.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/BvCja3P7IhxNnRETQlb4eSKGJ6Y Subject: [Lime] Fwd: New Non-WG Mailing List: I2NSF -- Interface to Network Security Functions mailing list X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:36:49 -0000 Did you gentlemen know this was on the way when you created your draft charter? It seems to put security out of LIME's scope if it goes anywhere. Tom Taylor -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Non-WG Mailing List: I2NSF -- Interface to Network Security Functions mailing list Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:21:05 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org To: IETF Announcement List CC: I2NSF@ietf.org, myo.zarny@gs.com, linda.dunbar@huawei.com A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. List address: i2nsf@ietf.org Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2nsf/ To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I2NSF Purpose: The Interface to Network Security Functions (I2NSF) mailing list is for discussing interfaces for clients (especially enterprises) to request, negotiate, operate, and/or verify the network security functions that are not physically present at requesters’ premises. Those security functions, hosted by service providers or 3rd parties, can be instantiated on physical appliances, or as virtual machines instantiated on common compute server (i.e. the Virtualized Network Functions defined by ETSI NFV). The Interface to (Virtual) Network Security Functions (I2NSF) initiative aims at improving the dynamic allocation and operation of network security functions by documenting a global framework that would include protocol-based control and management interfaces, along with adequate data models. The information required for the provisioning, the configuration and the operation of network security functions will be exchanged through the said interfaces and protocols. The I2NSF initiative will also take into account the need for co-existing with legacy configuration and management systems used to allocate and operate network security functions, whether they are embedded in network devices or virtualized in data center environments, for example. The standard Interface to request, negotiate, allocate, and/or operate (virtual) Network Security Functions is one of the necessary tools for operators and service providers to offer network security functions as a service to their corporate clients. Here are some examples of network security functions under consideration: · Firewall · DDOS/Anti-DOS · Access control/Authorization/Authentication · Remote identity management · Secure Key management · Intrusion Detection System/ Intrusion Prevention System (IDS/IPS) The security functions offered by 3rd party need Bi-directional periodic communications between the requesters and the providers for policies negotiation, validation, potentially re-directing traffic to higher level security functions, etc. Therefore, the service requires protocol exchange between multiple entities. The proposed protocols between requester and provider can be used for the following scenarios: · A Client requests a set of certain network security functions from a provider · The provider fulfills the request for example, by instantiating an instance of the service in question, or configures additional rules in an already provisioned service. OpenStack has done a project on FW as a service: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-nsaas-problem-statement/. Here is the highlight of the relationship with OpenStack: * “Open-source initiatives are not to be considered as an alternative to formal standardization processes. On the contrary, they are complementary, with the former acting as an enabler and accelerator of the latter. Open-source provides an ideal mechanism to quick prototyping and validating contending proposals, and demonstrating the feasibility of disruptive ideas that could otherwise not be considered. In this respect, open-source facilitates the engagement in the standardization process of small (and typically more dynamic) players such as start-ups and research groups, that would see better opportunities of being heard and a clearer rewards to their efforts. An open-source approach is extremely useful as well for the production of open reference implementations of the standards at the same (or even faster) pace they are defined. The availability of such reference implementations translate into much simpler interoperability and conformance assessments for both providers and users, and can become the basis for incremental differentiation of a common solution, thus allowing a cooperative competition (“coopetitionâ€) model.â€* For additional information, please contact the list administrators. From nobody Wed Sep 24 15:46:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD411A1AD8 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3paOgpIibWWp for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com (mail-pa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6D071A1ADD for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id lf10so9684990pab.36 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TQgWeOvUCP4crqUnujxXCNKPybsiTmJJ+9MIVkx0uqY=; b=mefSrFjKgp/dhJKYNEeDo7Tg7ETr6Rn9snggxT+wnbSCRAzoKKhQg8d9D4tsqkmEhw HqHsXeasu6BAfAalDWonCm11i47bxqEp51y+yaw2+BRoctc8tznpCngEsM13ca6s4Ncs esLNoU13/X18NamTdeaoP35zUNkbBtnKl+ytX4xTuXYxa1I9dzhORNh3W4IVqxPENvJ4 k38E5hf59u6NvsT1ppWH60WW7y5zVr+tkpi2OmrnHXuVa9aj7Mcz6jgPK+skH+QtLILT ZDNzgOkK5EIXUAkDpROZUV8uxlpgzX6l+akhawUfSt5S3yJIny96DoZDGRDL8D3OmxtD ZNJQ== X-Received: by 10.69.20.33 with SMTP id gz1mr13309612pbd.84.1411598774511; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex.local (209-112-137-170-rb2.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [209.112.137.170]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm320771pas.23.2014.09.24.15.46.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <542349B3.7030805@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 14:46:11 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lime@ietf.org References: <20140924202105.26209.81935.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5423477B.9040301@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5423477B.9040301@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/IZQIhexXQl395Iqz7PBHYQOzK_w Subject: Re: [Lime] Fwd: New Non-WG Mailing List: I2NSF -- Interface to Network Security Functions mailing list X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:46:16 -0000 On 9/24/14 2:36 PM, Tom Taylor wrote: > Did you gentlemen know this was on the way when you created your draft > charter? It seems to put security out of LIME's scope if it goes anywhere. I don't see how, Tom. The i2nsf effort is more closely analogous to i2rs. It seems to me that if there's any interplay between the two efforts (neither of which has been chartered!) it would be that it *might* be possible for a management facility to *use* an i2nsf api to implement the management application. Melinda From nobody Wed Sep 24 19:10:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE1F1A6F13 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:10:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74vgt0NOQJek for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6FB21A6ED9 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJX00629; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:10:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:10:28 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:10:24 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4A//9XHZAAQWu1gAAeMKOA//6NtbA= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:10:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F1222nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/VaQx0ZP0AvZoYwEkqpwVDm5gdfA Cc: Benoit Claise , "Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)" , BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:10:35 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F1222nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIEFsbDoNClRoYW5rcyBNZWQgdG8gYnJpbmcgdXAgdGhpcyBwb2ludC4NCkhlcmUgaXMgdGhl IGJhY2tncm91bmQgdG8gdGhlIGNvbW1lbnQgcmFpc2VkIGJ5IE1lZCBiZWxvdy4NCkJhc2VkIG9u IEFE4oCZcyByZWNlbnQgY29tbWVudHMgYW5kIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBvbiB0aGUgc2Vjb25kIHZlcnNp b24gb2YgQ2hhcnRlciBwcm9wb3NhbCBwb3N0ZWQgYXQ6DQooaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL2Rh bmllbGtpbmd1ay9saW1lL3RyZWUvbWFzdGVyL2NoYXJ0ZXItcHJvcG9zYWwpLA0Kd2UgZ2V0IGJh Y2sgdG8gZGVzaWduIHRlYW0gZGlzY3Vzc2lvbi4NClRocmVlIFF1ZXN0aW9ucyBkaXNjdXNzZWQg aW4gdGhlIERlc2lnbiB0ZWFtOg0KDQpRIDEuIFNob3VsZCB3ZSBkbyBETSB3aXRob3V0IGluZm9y bWF0aW9uIG1vZGVsPw0KDQpRIDIuIFNoYWxsIHdlIGFsbG93IG90aGVyIERNTHMgdGhhbiBZQU5H Pw0KDQpRIDMuIENhbiBndWlkYW5jZSBiZSBhcHBsaWVkIHRvIGJvdGggbWFuYWdlbWVudCBwbGFu 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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F1222nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 24 19:41:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF9D1A0327 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:41:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mKQ2Fvjtsfa2 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 879A11A02E2 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJX02346; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:41:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:41:36 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:41:33 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Benoit Claise" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4A//9XHZAAQWu1gAAeMKOA//6CYlA= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:41:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F125Cnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/b2wB2mtMb9wI3JzHO4u340Qx-r0 Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wcmU+DQo8cCBjbGFz cz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+ PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F125Cnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 24 22:42:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F711A6F0D for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:42:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WKqOwo5CNDcw for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F49E1A1BFC for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMZ24083; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:42:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:42:40 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:42:37 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Tom Taylor , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" , LIME Thread-Topic: [Lime] Fwd: New Non-WG Mailing List: I2NSF -- Interface to Network Security Functions mailing list Thread-Index: AQHP2EgTFMAy/bEt7EqVSSkRYO2KHZwRNCkw Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:42:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140924202105.26209.81935.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5423477B.9040301@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5423477B.9040301@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/RbpeTYoBHrjvG-PaLKx2nNwjHSs Subject: Re: [Lime] Fwd: New Non-WG Mailing List: I2NSF -- Interface to Network Security Functions mailing list X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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IHRoZSBsaXN0IGFkbWluaXN0cmF0b3JzLg0KDQoNCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTGltZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0K From nobody Wed Sep 24 23:15:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3994C1A6F45 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 23:15:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yh8L2-hhY0mk for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 23:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16ACC1A1BFC for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 23:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.200]) by omfeda09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 39371C0C15; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:15:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.56]) by omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0871B15804E; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:15:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([169.254.2.39]) by OPEXCLILH04.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([10.114.31.56]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:15:00 +0200 From: To: Qin Wu , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4A//9XHZAAQWu1gAAeMKOA//6CYlD//Mf34A== Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:15:00 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90OPEXCLILM23corpor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.9.25.40019 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/-bOU_b3zHZai3YHnBUrq47cZk1A Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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ZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90OPEXCLILM23corpor_-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 01:47:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADB01A0303 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNn8JVDjwwld for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9808F1A1A83 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJX32528; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:47:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:47:27 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:47:21 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Benoit Claise" , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4A//9XHZAAQWu1gAAeMKOA//6CYlD//Mf34P/5ZRpA Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:47:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F1394nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/QIVIyopNRf5R1IlvSvSlnD7rJBY Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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01:54:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547CF1A1BA7 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:54:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZXmrRvnpf_0v for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B26BA1A1B6E for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMZ45414; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:54:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:54:49 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:54:43 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: Ac/TQLwLpRs/ZUbeTOmlRcJmZEVDYAAnS3+wAA6hudAAFh548ABmHDqQAAdGX+D//7AXAIAAAH8AgAADYwCAAAGUgIAAVeGA//94snCAAIqrgP//eKzAgACMbQCAAAniAIAAAmAAgABVgwCAAAS0AIAANk4AgACRh4CAAAE4gP//eF1A//7uHqD//dhC4P/7QYGw//WQvCD/62s4AP/VT+mA/6qpvwD/VMswAA== Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:54:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F13A2nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/CO-NMcIPEYWDLFu__QxVZjhMPqA Cc: Benoit Claise , Huub van Helvoort Subject: Re: [Lime] RE LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ovtw8RD21iCL for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgwmail6.fujitsu.co.jp (fgwmail6.fujitsu.co.jp [192.51.44.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BA4F1A1C03 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kw-mxq.gw.nic.fujitsu.com (unknown [10.0.237.131]) by fgwmail6.fujitsu.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F983EE0AE; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:27:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from s4.gw.fujitsu.co.jp (s4.gw.fujitsu.co.jp [10.0.50.94]) by kw-mxq.gw.nic.fujitsu.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4E0AC07C9; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:27:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from dm.kawasaki.flab.fujitsu.co.jp (dm.kawasaki.flab.fujitsu.co.jp [10.25.192.105]) by s4.gw.fujitsu.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0CBE38001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:27:28 +0900 (JST) X-SecurityPolicyCheck: OK by SHieldMailChecker v2.2.3 X-SHieldMailCheckerPolicyVersion: FJ-ISEC-20140219 Message-ID: <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:26:56 +0900 From: Yuji Tochio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030605040602040806000209" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/yQTqhWJ55wqk7V53kOoeH_UXDvc Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:27:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030605040602040806000209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Qin, Regarding to three questions on another thread as: Q 1. Should we do DM without information model? Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG? Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane? I am wondering how to answer to #1, but if LIME says Yes as below, > Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF? then I can reply to Yes to #1. As to #2, we focus on YANG in IETF first at this moment. To #3, Yes. Regards, Yuji (2014/09/25 17:47), Qin Wu wrote: > > So I feel that if we start from IM, we can imagine that harmonizing with other SDOs for IM will take quite a long time. > > */[Med] I frankly don$B!G(Bt know how it will last. Note, the arguments you raised above can be over-exaggerated and as such be interpreted as the IETF should not > do any work on IMs anymore. /* > > [Qin]: What I am saying is ITU-T and MEF have already done some IMs (e.g., MEF 7.1, ITU-T G.8052). IM defined in ITU-T G.8051 is protocol neutral and use IEEE > CFM model and Y.1731 as basis. > > See figure 2 of MEF-38 for Relationship between MEF and ITU-T specifications, the YANG modules developed by MEF > > http://www.metroethernetforum.org/Assets/Technical_Specifications/PDF/MEF_38.pdf > > Do we need to redo IMs again and look for harmonization with ITU-T and MEF for these IMs > > Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF? > > Regards! > > -Qin > > *? $B7o?M(B:*mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > *? $BAw(B??:*2014$BG/(B9$B7n(B24$BF|(B19:37 > *$BZ@7o?M(B:*Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org > *$B > Hi Benoit, > > I$B!G(Bm one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter. > > I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs discussion (which I > would expect and encourage for this topic). > > Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have their $B!H(Bfavorite$B!I(B DM too. > > Cheers, > > Med > > *De :*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Benoit Claise > *Envoye' :* mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13 > *A` :* Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org > *Objet :* Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team > > Dear all, > > [I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed] > > Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point. > See in line for some answers/questions. > > Hi, all: > > Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: > > https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal > > > > We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. > > Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed: > > 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology > > Networks? Shall we publish it? > > The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document. > > That makes sense to me. > > > 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM? > We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM. > > For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html > > In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs > that still need to determine their management requirements: > fault, configuration, accounting, performance? > push/pull? > OAM or not? > ... > Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG. > The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go. > So I'm wondering if, in _this SPECIFIC _(potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise. > > > > 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered? > > It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML. > > See point 2. > What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I don't know > of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction. > > > Some more feedback: > - "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the > development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be > coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across > layers." > I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of view". > This work is about "OAM Management" after all. > > - "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic > layer-independent and technology-independent configuration, > reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models > expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." > So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions are not > done here, where? In the respective WGs? > Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects. > > - I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification: > > An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by > other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying > existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is > within scope for the IETF. > > There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance > 1. an architecture. > Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on? > I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other architectures. > Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been > there before) > 2. the guidance. > Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data plane should be mentioned. > > - "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain > and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and > when a need rises" > That's a good limitation IMO. > > - Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF? > I'm sure MEF deals with OAM. > > - At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th > (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91) > And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader community. > Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation. > > Regards, Benoit > > > > We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to the list soon. > > Regards! > -Qin > . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime --------------030605040602040806000209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Qin,

Regarding to three questions on another thread as:
Q 1. Should we do DM without information model?
Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG?
Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane?

I am wondering how to answer to #1, but if LIME says Yes as below,
Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF?
then I can reply to Yes to #1.

As to #2, we focus on YANG in IETF first at this moment. To #3, Yes.

Regards, Yuji


(2014/09/25 17:47), Qin Wu wrote:

So I feel that if we start from IM, we can imagine that harmonizing with other SDOs for IM will take quite a long time.

[Med] I frankly don$B!G(Bt know how it will last. Note, the arguments you raised above can be over-exaggerated and as such be interpreted as the IETF should not do any work on IMs anymore.

 

[Qin]: What I am saying is ITU-T and MEF have already done some IMs (e.g., MEF 7.1, ITU-T G.8052). IM defined in ITU-T G.8051 is protocol neutral and use IEEE CFM model and Y.1731 as basis.

See figure 2 of MEF-38 for Relationship between MEF and ITU-T specifications, the YANG modules developed by MEF

http://www.metroethernetforum.org/Assets/Technical_Specifications/PDF/MEF_38.pdf

 

Do we need to redo IMs again and look for harmonization with ITU-T and MEF for these IMs

Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF?

 

 

Regards!

-Qin

发 $B7o?M(B: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
发 $BAw(B时间: 2014$BG/(B9$B7n(B24$BF|(B 19:37
$BZ@7o?M(B: Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
$B: RE: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team

 

Hi Benoit,

 

I$B!G(Bm one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter.

 

I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs discussion (which I would expect and encourage for this topic).

 

Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have their $B!H(Bfavorite$B!I(B DM too.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise
Envoyé : mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13
À : Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team

 

Dear all,

[I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed]

Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point.
See in line for some answers/questions.

Hi, all:
Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below:
https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal 
 
We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. 
Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed:
1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology  
Networks? Shall we publish it?
The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document.

That makes sense to me.

 
2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM?
We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM.

For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html

In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements:
    fault, configuration, accounting, performance?
    push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise.

 
3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered?
It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML.

See point 2.
What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction.


Some more feedback:
- "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the
development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be
coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across
layers."
I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of view".
This work is about "OAM Management" after all.

- "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic
layer-independent and technology-independent configuration,
reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models
expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered."
So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions are not done here, where? In the respective WGs?
Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects.

- I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification:

An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by
other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying
existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is
within scope for the IETF.

There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance
1. an architecture.
Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on?
I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other architectures.
Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been there before)
2. the guidance.
Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data plane should be mentioned.

-  "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain
and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and
when a need rises"
That's a good limitation IMO.

- Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF?
I'm sure MEF deals with OAM.

- At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91)
And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader community.
Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation.

Regards, Benoit

 
 
We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to the list soon.
 
Regards!
-Qin
.
 

 



_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime

--------------030605040602040806000209-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 02:59:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9051A6F62 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvviht6o1aSJ for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D04871A1BEE for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:59:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=40852; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411639191; x=1412848791; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=iSl/AF7OEm/oPxJejfI1uV9KZGqXgoTcMBlqHkQpips=; b=fIDCMojdyChWWTlPzKfq4n8JKRxfevshV7fiRj7ynO5U7aP2eIBnk2wE fynGAEMkG134LdODjtpnkNTs5PvepxeiFAn2+2LJN/rUGm/6hz0cduNkP UyFjUiRWRZJ9yyl2Ly0UfReDgp8Ztc2I0unrcSUOsipOtRPaZK5AEUAbg 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah8GAEPmI1StJssW/2dsb2JhbABggkiBGVeIXMIEAQuHTAGBHgF6hAMBAQECAQEBAQEqQQQGAQULCxIGCRYBAQYHCQMCAQIBFR8DDgYBDAEFAgEBBQuIIggNwmQBF488CgYCAU8GAYRLBY9GhlKHCYdMjgiDZDsvAYEFgUQBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,596,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="188524554" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 09:59:47 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8P9xjHF010386; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:59:46 GMT Message-ID: <5423E791.7080104@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:59:45 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yuji Tochio , Qin Wu References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> In-Reply-To: <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020905030107050609050406" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/ztFoYKkeIA8m5LgRvWleKuIc1lM Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:59:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020905030107050609050406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, Trying to bring closure on this IM topic. Taking the feedback from the charter design team , and the answers to the following questions: Q 1. Can we do DM without information model? Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG? Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane? Note that the right question Q1 is: Should we do DM without information model? All 9 replies went in the same direction: Q 1. Yes Q 2. No Q 3. Yes Btw, many thanks to the charter design team for their work and initial proposal. I consider that their work is now done, that any communication should now happen on this mailing list. As I mentioned before, I don't think IM is required in this specific WG. I explained the reasons in the previous email. My point is that if the WG finds it necessary to work on the Information Model before the Data Model, it's free to do so. What does it imply in terms of charter text? - The Information Model deliverable has been removed - "Data models expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." has been removed - The following sentence has been added: "If the working group finds it necessary to work on an information model before the data model, it might do so." Regards, Benoit > Hi Qin, > > Regarding to three questions on another thread as: > Q 1. Should we do DM without information model? > Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG? > Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane? > > I am wondering how to answer to #1, but if LIME says Yes as below, >> Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF? > then I can reply to Yes to #1. > > As to #2, we focus on YANG in IETF first at this moment. To #3, Yes. > > Regards, Yuji > > > (2014/09/25 17:47), Qin Wu wrote: >> >> So I feel that if we start from IM, we can imagine that harmonizing >> with other SDOs for IM will take quite a long time. >> >> */[Med] I frankly don't know how it will last. Note, the arguments >> you raised above can be over-exaggerated and as such be interpreted >> as the IETF should not do any work on IMs anymore. /* >> >> [Qin]: What I am saying is ITU-T and MEF have already done some IMs >> (e.g., MEF 7.1, ITU-T G.8052). IM defined in ITU-T G.8051 is protocol >> neutral and use IEEE CFM model and Y.1731 as basis. >> >> See figure 2 of MEF-38 for Relationship between MEF and ITU-T >> specifications, the YANG modules developed by MEF >> >> http://www.metroethernetforum.org/Assets/Technical_Specifications/PDF/MEF_38.pdf >> >> Do we need to redo IMs again and look for harmonization with ITU-T >> and MEF for these IMs >> >> Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF? >> >> Regards! >> >> -Qin >> >> *? ??:*mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> >> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> *? ???:*2014?9?24?19:37 >> *???:*Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org >> *??:*RE: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team >> >> Hi Benoit, >> >> I'm one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out >> explicitly IMs in the charter. >> >> I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the >> merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs >> discussion (which I would expect and encourage for this topic). >> >> Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have >> their "favorite" DM too. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Med >> >> *De :*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Benoit Claise >> *Envoyé :* mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13 >> *À :* Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org >> *Objet :* Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in >> Design Team >> >> Dear all, >> >> [I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too >> many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed] >> >> Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting >> point. >> See in line for some answers/questions. >> >> Hi, all: >> >> Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: >> >> https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal >> >> >> >> We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. >> >> Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed: >> >> 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology >> >> Networks? Shall we publish it? >> >> The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document. >> >> That makes sense to me. >> >> >> 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM? >> We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM. >> >> For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html >> >> In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the >> need to have an information model before specifying the data >> model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their >> management requirements: >> fault, configuration, accounting, performance? >> push/pull? >> OAM or not? >> ... >> Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and >> for configuration there is a primary language: YANG. >> The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is >> the right way to go. >> So I'm wondering if, in _this SPECIFIC _(potential) WG, it's >> necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but >> could be convinced otherwise. >> >> >> >> 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered? >> >> It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML. >> >> See point 2. >> What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially >> make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. >> However, I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to >> go in that direction. >> >> >> Some more feedback: >> - "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the >> development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be >> coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across >> layers." >> I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of >> view". >> This work is about "OAM Management" after all. >> >> - "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic >> layer-independent and technology-independent configuration, >> reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models >> expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." >> So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also >> want to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If >> the extensions are not done here, where? In the respective WGs? >> Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be >> augmented for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects. >> >> - I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification: >> >> An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by >> other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying >> existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is >> within scope for the IETF. >> >> There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance >> 1. an architecture. >> Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on? >> I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I >> don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably >> other architectures. >> Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? >> However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take >> years (yes, I've been there before) >> 2. the guidance. >> Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about >> data plane should be mentioned. >> >> - "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain >> and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and >> when a need rises" >> That's a good limitation IMO. >> >> - Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not >> limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF? >> I'm sure MEF deals with OAM. >> >> - At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the >> next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th >> (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91) >> And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG >> creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from >> the broader community. >> Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG >> creation. >> >> Regards, Benoit >> >> >> >> We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to the list soon. >> >> Regards! >> -Qin >> . >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime --------------020905030107050609050406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear all,

Trying to bring closure on this IM topic.

Taking the feedback from the charter design team , and the answers to the following questions:
Q 1. Can we do DM without information model?
Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG?
Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane?
Note that the right question Q1 is: Should we do DM without information model?
All 9 replies went in the same direction:
Q 1. Yes
Q 2. No
Q 3. Yes   
Btw, many thanks to the charter design team for their work and initial proposal. I consider that their work is now done, that any communication should now happen on this mailing list.

As I mentioned before, I don't think IM is required in this specific WG. I explained the reasons in the previous email.
My point is that if the WG finds it necessary to work on the Information Model before the Data Model, it's free to do so.

What does it imply in terms of charter text?
- The Information Model deliverable has been removed
- "Data models expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." has been removed
- The following sentence has been added:  "If the working group finds it necessary to work on an information model before the data model, it might do so."

Regards, Benoit

Hi Qin,

Regarding to three questions on another thread as:
Q 1. Should we do DM without information model?
Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG?
Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane?

I am wondering how to answer to #1, but if LIME says Yes as below,
Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF?
then I can reply to Yes to #1.

As to #2, we focus on YANG in IETF first at this moment. To #3, Yes.

Regards, Yuji


(2014/09/25 17:47), Qin Wu wrote:

So I feel that if we start from IM, we can imagine that harmonizing with other SDOs for IM will take quite a long time.

[Med] I frankly don’t know how it will last. Note, the arguments you raised above can be over-exaggerated and as such be interpreted as the IETF should not do any work on IMs anymore.

 

[Qin]: What I am saying is ITU-T and MEF have already done some IMs (e.g., MEF 7.1, ITU-T G.8052). IM defined in ITU-T G.8051 is protocol neutral and use IEEE CFM model and Y.1731 as basis.

See figure 2 of MEF-38 for Relationship between MEF and ITU-T specifications, the YANG modules developed by MEF

http://www.metroethernetforum.org/Assets/Technical_Specifications/PDF/MEF_38.pdf

 

Do we need to redo IMs again and look for harmonization with ITU-T and MEF for these IMs

Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF?

 

 

Regards!

-Qin

发 件人: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]
发 送时间: 2014年9月24日 19:37
收件人: Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
主题: RE: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team

 

Hi Benoit,

 

I’m one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter.

 

I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs discussion (which I would expect and encourage for this topic).

 

Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have their “favorite” DM too.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise
Envoyé : mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13
À : Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team

 

Dear all,

[I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed]

Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point.
See in line for some answers/questions.

Hi, all:
Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below:
https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal 
 
We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. 
Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed:
1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology  
Networks? Shall we publish it?
The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document.

That makes sense to me.

 
2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM?
We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM.

For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html

In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements:
    fault, configuration, accounting, performance?
    push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise.

 
3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered?
It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML.

See point 2.
What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction.


Some more feedback:
- "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the
development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be
coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across
layers."
I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of view".
This work is about "OAM Management" after all.

- "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic
layer-independent and technology-independent configuration,
reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models
expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered."
So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the extensions are not done here, where? In the respective WGs?
Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects.

- I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification:

An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by
other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying
existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is
within scope for the IETF.

There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance
1. an architecture.
Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on?
I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other architectures.
Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been there before)
2. the guidance.
Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about data plane should be mentioned.

-  "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain
and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and
when a need rises"
That's a good limitation IMO.

- Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF?
I'm sure MEF deals with OAM.

- At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91)
And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader community.
Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG creation.

Regards, Benoit

 
 
We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it to the list soon.
 
Regards!
-Qin
.
 

 



_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime




_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime

--------------020905030107050609050406-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 03:26:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245F11A6F62 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNRJDlITZHtx for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D9DC1A01F6 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:26:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=701; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411640773; x=1412850373; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=RlmwdpmnBISq8mQXnHEqPvbMUkYDu46O9ODJk706HQk=; b=EN1LnCSFeqrkPgWdi4+MnWj5ZbNTnB9xLA8CBYMSVit/1UdcFz0ahW9T uN6I9cUJmet70F5KXC62X4FpImOojYYpHFY7yQhlsGeG3cYB78nbebOKP cQ1/fZPlW44qjrDdIYWeYRrGnX3Mw9WewJFNGNLTtUUJcWslrsGRekjiv 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqAEAIbtI1StJssW/2dsb2JhbABg1nKBHwF6hDwBBUABPBYYAwIBAgFLDQEHAQGIOsJdAReQHoRSAQSdIYdMjgiDZDuCeQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,596,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="184436420" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 10:25:50 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8PAPmH0028545; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:25:48 GMT Message-ID: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:25:48 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lime@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Q1VRJCuEldP3IlHjZqwIPl44ZPI Cc: Adrian Farrel , Alia Atlas Subject: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:26:13 -0000 Dear all, I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIME data model(s) does/do the right job. That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific extensions be standardized? Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this extra deliverable: • Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the respective working groups. Regards, Benoit From nobody Thu Sep 25 03:30:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6191A6F6F for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 77kFdn5ieSGW for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95A2D1A6F62 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id x19so13243386ier.36 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:30:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YG2xdggUy2JEijx7n4mgyxu5TBkh7f/Gmehhzqn+Qeo=; b=uXc0Pl7YbkTrJIGSISwHNA3ppr4PTW9RD69qVrc+wr+TDYsTaBjrZOYtceHyJoa3zt AuuA7lNPTSlhy34iCxaNxUjqFgpWDayidPYDHF69n8aPkfHBX/jrTVJbidP0v9Z6g/HA zDtY6VU7wotdcut+RzdEKCP0u5F5HBFfAMdoz2WRFNN2nwLo1ouy7/ZtTgESJXGQJ5Mq gZiml4NhPxpd116sHI8kfesU8r1CCEZCSWCQWkAwhGPHakgvaw+EvdNgTWbHDt6V9HCA AHPHHVtQCEMxpq1G24x53hRI7wsgPmi7VHGzLpWvVCvjaE+eIuJDN3qDjgOn4+p5KbeT zg+w== X-Received: by 10.43.59.80 with SMTP id wn16mr16994941icb.6.1411641024062; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.97.188] ([67.210.160.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a4sm2202074igv.1.2014.09.25.03.30.23 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5423EEC0.1050702@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:30:24 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yuji Tochio , Qin Wu References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> In-Reply-To: <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/6j61_fZvF3j9l_gl3-ut0JJ859Y Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:30:26 -0000 I think I like Yuji's response to 1). Med, will this lead us into conflict if we pick CFM in particular? Tom T On 25/09/2014 5:26 AM, Yuji Tochio wrote: > Hi Qin, > > Regarding to three questions on another thread as: > Q 1. Should we do DM without information model? > Q 2. Shall we allow other DMLs than YANG? > Q 3. Can guidance be applied to both management plane and data plane? > > I am wondering how to answer to #1, but if LIME says Yes as below, >> Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF? > then I can reply to Yes to #1. > > As to #2, we focus on YANG in IETF first at this moment. To #3, Yes. > > Regards, Yuji > > > (2014/09/25 17:47), Qin Wu wrote: >> >> So I feel that if we start from IM, we can imagine that harmonizing with other SDOs for IM will take quite a long time. >> >> */[Med] I frankly don’t know how it will last. Note, the arguments you raised above can be over-exaggerated and as such be interpreted as the IETF should not >> do any work on IMs anymore. /* >> >> [Qin]: What I am saying is ITU-T and MEF have already done some IMs (e.g., MEF 7.1, ITU-T G.8052). IM defined in ITU-T G.8051 is protocol neutral and use IEEE >> CFM model and Y.1731 as basis. >> >> See figure 2 of MEF-38 for Relationship between MEF and ITU-T specifications, the YANG modules developed by MEF >> >> http://www.metroethernetforum.org/Assets/Technical_Specifications/PDF/MEF_38.pdf >> >> Do we need to redo IMs again and look for harmonization with ITU-T and MEF for these IMs >> >> Or should we simply reference these IMs and do a DM directly in IETF? >> >> Regards! >> >> -Qin >> >> *? 件人:*mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> *? é€??:*2014å¹´9月24æ—¥19:37 >> *收件人:*Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org >> *主?:*RE: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team >> >> Hi Benoit, >> >> I’m one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter. >> >> I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs discussion (which I >> would expect and encourage for this topic). >> >> Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have their “favorite†DM too. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Med >> >> *De :*Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Benoit Claise >> *Envoye' :* mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13 >> *A` :* Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org >> *Objet :* Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team >> >> Dear all, >> >> [I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed] >> >> Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point. >> See in line for some answers/questions. >> >> Hi, all: >> >> Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: >> >> https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal >> >> >> >> We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. >> >> Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed: >> >> 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and multi-technology >> >> Networks? Shall we publish it? >> >> The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document. >> >> That makes sense to me. >> >> >> 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define DM? >> We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this IM. >> >> For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html >> >> In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs >> that still need to determine their management requirements: >> fault, configuration, accounting, performance? >> push/pull? >> OAM or not? >> ... >> Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG. >> The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go. >> So I'm wondering if, in _this SPECIFIC _(potential) WG, it's necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise. >> >> >> >> 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered? >> >> It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG as DML. >> >> See point 2. >> What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, I don't know >> of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction. >> ... From nobody Thu Sep 25 04:04:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B931A1AA7 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:04:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.636 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.636 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R156c_TzoUHq for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcmail23.telekom.de (tcmail23.telekom.de [80.149.113.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0771A6F62 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s4de8nsazdfe010.bmbg.telekom.de ([10.175.246.202]) by tcmail21.telekom.de with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 13:03:56 +0200 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,596,1406584800"; d="scan'208";a="536664695" Received: from he110889.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.92.130]) by q4de8nsa015.bmbg.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 25 Sep 2014 13:03:55 +0200 Received: from HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([169.254.5.99]) by HE110889.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([fe80::841f:f92c:15ca:8526%16]) with mapi; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:03:55 +0200 From: To: , Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:03:54 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension Thread-Index: Ac/YrMXRCVuAZLMRS3+MQ5Ex/SiJvgAAyNUw Message-ID: <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879DC5@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/YXy6Qg1PtbkLS_8zXXgCGX3tqgs Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, akatlas@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:04:06 -0000 Dear all, how is this ensured? Is it that way that LIME might work on protocol-specific extensions (if int= erested) or won't work on these extensions (excluded)? Regards Roland -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Benoit Claise Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 12:26 An: lime@ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas Betreff: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension Dear all, I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIM= E data model(s) does/do the right job. That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific exten= sions be standardized? Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this ex= tra deliverable: . Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and ex= tensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility= must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP P= ing. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked= on in the respective working groups. Regards, Benoit _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 04:25:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0891A1A8A for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxcqiEOX-B5N for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias243.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFBE51A6F9F for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.201]) by omfeda14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id B61862AC8EA; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:25:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.56]) by omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 7CD8F384061; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:25:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([169.254.2.39]) by OPEXCLILH04.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([10.114.31.56]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:25:30 +0200 From: To: Benoit Claise Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team Thread-Index: AQHP2Kd8y+X8zbjjJ0S/vnY8OgE2q5wRtRag Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:25:30 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330084411@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> <5423E791.7080104@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5423E791.7080104@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330084411OPEXCLILM23corpor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.9.24.114819 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/FO99LjoJVhAtkoPjDBHFPhcsz3I Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:25:37 -0000 --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330084411OPEXCLILM23corpor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQmVub8OudCwNCg0KU2luY2UgaXQgc2VlbXMgSeKAmW0gdGhlIG9ubHkgdGhhdCAoc3RpbGwp IGFza3MgZm9yIElNcyB0byBiZSBleHBsaWNpdGx5IGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyLCB0 aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgY2hhbmdlcyB5b3UgbGlzdGVkIGJlbG93IGFyZSBmYWlyLg0KDQpUaGFuayB5 b3UuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQpEZSA6IExpbWUgW21haWx0bzpsaW1lLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0 Zi5vcmddIERlIGxhIHBhcnQgZGUgQmVub2l0IENsYWlzZQ0KRW52b3nDqSA6IGpldWRpIDI1IHNl cHRlbWJyZSAyMDE0IDEyOjAwDQrDgCA6IFl1amkgVG9jaGlvOyBRaW4gV3UNCkNjIDogbGltZUBp ZXRmLm9yZw0KT2JqZXQgOiBSZTogW0xpbWVdIExJTUUgQ2hhcnRlciBQcm9wb3NhbCB1cGRhdGUg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBpbiBEZXNpZ24gVGVhbQ0KDQpEZWFyIGFsbCwNCg0KVHJ5aW5nIHRvIGJyaW5n IGNsb3N1cmUgb24gdGhpcyBJTSB0b3BpYy4NCg0KVGFraW5nIHRoZSBmZWVkYmFjayBmcm9tIHRo 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ESMTP id 03C001A1A8A for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:32:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PdEisTJH48Sr for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 094041A02F7 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s8PBWf1b008594; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:32:41 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s8PBWckO008553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:32:39 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Benoit Claise'" References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330083E90@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5423DFE0.6050201@jp.fujitsu.com> <5423E791.7080104@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5423E791.7080104@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:32:35 +0100 Message-ID: <015f01cfd8b4$67d4b5a0$377e20e0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHvmPnZQBEspU4sQl1YuA3NsMYcoAFPawWnARVCeaQCrAG+bgI/ZARSAf7VdTMC+bTRmANClRSjm1XZ6VA= Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1576-7.5.0.1018-20974.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--2.412-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--2.412-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: VPleTT1nwdSnykMun0J1wvHkpkyUphL9MTuXSkHtB4J77G36GYsVEzoM BAvRIAqs/jLuqKkYbdPPzWNc0Cig+M5/oVSv8cmRW7gz/Gbgpl7Meau/FrxSZCzt4/lw8JZD1Bo O0FXL0sgflN4S77dsrm2xcSGnUliMzvepFbq/aOAve6W+IORwrUbbuL7Y47c0MhpAlqzbd+LBGB 5yWcRYfaXKroAomhKCH2XXM8w5v7poMCLywE0ygQtuKBGekqUpm+MB6kaZ2g413boklhg4hanbE 5wk4BEEgXx9I3H3DOPP1+8Xio/tZCjSsxpRQoyktUCKkoRYlIsNS3qwUWQXpFnj5jN9+LiRwaiT d9bXBOjkP2yapUEP3KKWedUMQI938fsC+xPFkxvsNp90fT4EjuoLJh5uXtfs Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Z72JrmOq3AMNDJzl98mO6i5tkD0 Cc: lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:32:53 -0000 Thanks for guiding this, Benoit. > Trying to bring closure on this IM topic. [snip] > What does it imply in terms of charter text? > - The Information Model deliverable has been removed > - "Data models expressed in other languages than YANG may be=20 > considered." has been removed > - The following sentence has been added:=A0 "If the working group > finds it necessary to work on an information model before the > data model, it might do so." I like that outcome. The IETF does not need another data model language for this type of = config and reporting, and I think SMI is now phasing out. I like that you have left info models open if the WG finds a need, and = (of course) the WG can look at existing info models at any time. This is = thoroughly covered by the final sentence of the charter text. Therefore, it is anticipated that the working group will closely = coordinate its activities with other SDOs (including, but not limited to the = ITU-T, MEF, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP) to ensure that the generic models are harmonized with work done in those SDOs and are applicable to many technologies. Good job. Adrian From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:17:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B3D1A6FBC for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:17:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DgCcpEIDnIvr for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE0851A6FBA for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:17:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=250; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411647441; x=1412857041; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=yputz7gnyOlWM0XKvW7ULPBOwSTB1kTewXKHsnkvwbo=; b=WOOHXIt8ai1qzThl2HTAVBmV/U9Ghd+sdtlDgJUpKohX3xs5o7A6/5qy jCNryYJiG+c/5bsYTZJrNUaRvYVgMDZmEaJ2EuSOTWmzJ+v2818gV3zdu U+pm3iviWVu5L0NZwd5StUI0wngG1S2y22U61BQAuCkqNBhsntkZjHMWG M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqAEABkHJFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABgg2HLQYhvAXuEQkA9FhgDAgECAUsNCAEBiDoNnQ6lVgETBJRwAQSPSIZShwmHTY4Jg2U7gnkBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,597,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="188642328" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 12:17:18 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8PCHItk028293 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:17:18 GMT Message-ID: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:17:18 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lime@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/kUW1Lth64jlbftwNRQIOnIkQkw4 Subject: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:17:22 -0000 Dear all, I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. It's now in the charter tool at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ Let's use this tool from now on. Feedback is always welcome. Regards, Benoit From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:26:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D561A6FC4 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZQia1aoeQvq for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49C021A0005 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:26:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5660; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411648007; x=1412857607; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to; bh=AFtyHNJ7OvJwe4KTzZai+9KCYx4Scov3KEoHnunw3Bk=; b=IfYxh/3AG2XCPV4nlM1/s6QqnxTH+ifMbF+IxteU/DZKsVW4AmIGU80G +Pvo2lxxHQth5vqo0xtqqZH5AxC+x4PlQ8BR49Ox2iLCa9Rc1e4Dy21y+ jfCvmK4OP8kn9kdlXS5UmtiGY/5xb8r03LgAcvGGz13gfVlXNajRx+B5/ Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvgFAKwJJFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABgg2FXiFzCBAEJh04CgR8Be4QEAQEEAQEBaAMKARALIRYIBwkDAgECARUfEQcMAQUCAQEQB4gjDcJjARMEkB4HhEsBBJ0jh02OCYNlOy+CSgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,597,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="184540004" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 12:26:45 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8PCQiqW012266; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:26:44 GMT Message-ID: <54240A04.2040802@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:26:44 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roland.Schott@telekom.de, lime@ietf.org References: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879DC5@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> In-Reply-To: <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879DC5@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080405060006090406000309" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/l5boXJrVskq5x0J-_6qoVz-fiXM Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, akatlas@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:26:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080405060006090406000309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Roland, > Dear all, > > how is this ensured? This is the dilemma. On one side, we have to ensure usability and extensibility. One the other side, It's not right to include the OAM protocol-specific extensions into the LIME charter. Let's pick BFD, there is a BFD WG where the experts are. So the only solution is to stress the requirement in the charter and to trust the ADs, the WG chairs, and the community. > Is it that way that LIME might work on protocol-specific extensions (if interested) > or won't work on these extensions (excluded)? I don't want to have strict rules for now. Hence the phrasing: "should _ideally _be worked on in the respective working group". What is important (and I guess that Adrian & Alia share this view) is that the key experts are involved in producing a auality document. From there, where the document ends up in the end is less important IMO. Regards, Benoit > > > Regards > > Roland > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Benoit Claise > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 12:26 > An: lime@ietf.org > Cc: Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas > Betreff: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension > > Dear all, > > I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIME data model(s) does/do the right job. > That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific extensions be standardized? > > Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this extra deliverable: > > . Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping. > Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the respective working groups. > > Regards, Benoit > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > . > --------------080405060006090406000309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Roland,
Dear all,

how is this ensured?
This is the dilemma.
On one side, we have to ensure usability and extensibility.
One the other side, It's not right to include the OAM protocol-specific extensions into the LIME charter. Let's pick BFD, there is a BFD WG where the experts are.

So the only solution is to stress the requirement in the charter and to trust the ADs, the WG chairs, and the community.
Is it that way that LIME might work on protocol-specific extensions (if interested)
or won't work on these extensions (excluded)?
I don't want to have strict rules for now. Hence the phrasing: "should ideally be worked on in the respective working group".
What is important (and I guess that Adrian & Alia share this view) is that the key experts are involved in producing a auality document.
From there, where the document ends up in the end is less important IMO.

Regards, Benoit


Regards

Roland


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Benoit Claise
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 12:26
An: lime@ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas
Betreff: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension

Dear all,

I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIME data model(s) does/do the right job.
That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific extensions be standardized?

Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this extra deliverable:

. Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping.
Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the respective working groups.

Regards, Benoit

_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime
.

--------------080405060006090406000309-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:30:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9841A6FC5 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:30:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJrEGDvLvRDX for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x235.google.com (mail-ie0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C13E91A6FC4 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f181.google.com with SMTP id tr6so13036845ieb.26 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:30:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cwJphPcoYVXYj8q//oz3B9zhZ+lF/FOrVhgaYmj3+Hk=; b=Kin4BBGn6SBiIPDQ+LP+uFj19k5GbIohox/rGJlWgyxLUzYG58x23TO+dwSDCC0prR Rot2C6NXID8C6wos+F1KQP4cfxQNLwOpYdsT/IKDfGakA2r0ozrlhpKtyTGZuSI63GVt RV8eBV5enEhGWWb9dFLSxrZk3GD+wH8ih7Sm86RmdI5MRUt1FzJWxXy8eeTPjRifWXH8 FC7yng+sQAE6iHyZgUdwdgNcHewYogF+Rk4Xgx+G7KvmJ6Lt0cIVcNWiIT/TuHWw+a4g vOcqioO5w2ia+6oM10qJs2R0Im+tLPCOB8Phg1shTGO1ZBdpz2vFYCMrJsCGlxECsJ/d edag== X-Received: by 10.42.247.137 with SMTP id mc9mr18247218icb.13.1411648244145; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.97.188] ([67.210.160.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qo8sm6860043igb.7.2014.09.25.05.30.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:30:44 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/e3Gompfl3x40pv1p_qc3xC0guUo Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:30:46 -0000 That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original guidance, which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of conclusions to be factored in. This is clearly much more what people want to work on. Tom T On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Dear all, > > I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. > It's now in the charter tool at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ > Let's use this tool from now on. > > Feedback is always welcome. > > Regards, Benoit > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:35:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB1C1A6FD2 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:35:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HLrPBxBbkHyD for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ignavia.lancs.ac.uk (ignavia.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.25.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D9F1A6FCD for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex-0-ht0.lancs.ac.uk ([10.42.18.47] helo=EX-0-HT0.lancs.local) by ignavia.lancs.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XX8GS-0000oh-Q9; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:35:16 +0100 Received: from EX-0-MB2.lancs.local ([fe80::9d98:936b:54d1:c531]) by EX-0-HT0.lancs.local ([fe80::7d10:114a:53b0:7f2f%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:35:16 +0100 From: "King, Daniel" To: Tom Taylor , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqtiAvVUeycqEuJI1lut1BWDJwRttQAgAAhu/A= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:35:15 +0000 Message-ID: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B013@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [87.65.165.3] x-iss-local-domain: 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/brpoRpks6F2525I5AjLtRxUCyHY Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:35:20 -0000 Just want to echo Tom's comments. Looks great!=20 Only one NIT (xacerbated\exacerbated) :-) D -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor Sent: 25 September 2014 13:31 To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original guidance= , which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of conclusions to = be factored in. This is clearly much more what people want to work on. Tom T On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Dear all, > > I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. > It's now in the charter tool at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ > Let's use this tool from now on. > > Feedback is always welcome. > > Regards, Benoit > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:49:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBC61A007C for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5KpBISKM97vv for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 193C41A0072 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1383; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411649369; x=1412858969; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u8cW2XXyf00WWD8t8YphHc2I112QEn8ql1PBM0q5b74=; b=VZvRoHnK7Eh4/uTmxT4cIrMOcA+GBaeboyEbcBMeF5AhqNbDuD3Qmsiu MStHrsyGeb2reo2ZMobHEkKMWfPrYvfOuhYhLu5qqZ7pBp+na92CzGl52 aKkoGCoApHVLn99STdZKrRaxORJ6ghwFLn1VVYB85xGJbC7T3NvIIDYQB 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ar0EAFYOJFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABgDoNTV8pgCodOAoEeAXuEAwEBAQQBAQE1NgoNBAsRBAEBAQkWCAcJAwIBAgEVHwkIBgEMBgIBAYg6DcJLARMEkCUGhEUBBJYahwmHTY4JgyNCOy+CSgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,597,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="184559194" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 12:49:27 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8PCnRJY025494; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:49:27 GMT Message-ID: <54240F57.7080709@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:49:27 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "King, Daniel" , Tom Taylor , "lime@ietf.org" References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B013@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> In-Reply-To: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B013@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/PnrTnxWRk_YD5EgSQFctLI4uiGs Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:49:31 -0000 On 25/09/2014 14:35, King, Daniel wrote: > Just want to echo Tom's comments. Looks great! > > Only one NIT (xacerbated\exacerbated) :-) Corrected. Regards, Benoit > > D > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor > Sent: 25 September 2014 13:31 > To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text > > That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original guidance, which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of conclusions to be factored in. This is clearly much more what people want to work on. > > Tom T > > On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. >> It's now in the charter tool at >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ >> Let's use this tool from now on. >> >> Feedback is always welcome. >> >> Regards, Benoit >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >> > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > From nobody Thu Sep 25 05:56:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778D01A0048 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wtePyjRZ-F7q for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias243.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 921BF1A000A for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.201]) by omfeda09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D38A4C0714; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:56:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.16]) by omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A421A38408C; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:56:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::1818:f6b8:8936:f9e3]) by OPEXCLILH05.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([10.114.31.16]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:56:33 +0200 From: To: Benoit Claise Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqsOVPy0kjDj0GuTOxO/byAFpwRzaMg Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:55:08 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.9.25.114221 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/MlBkWbspHqgyPevoFvK8CE79qac Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:56:40 -0000 Re-, This text is repeated:=20 " Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibili= ty must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Pi= ng. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked= on in the respective working groups." Cheers, Med >-----Message d'origine----- >De=A0: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise >Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 25 septembre 2014 14:17 >=C0=A0: lime@ietf.org >Objet=A0: [Lime] New LIME charter text > >Dear all, > >I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. >It's now in the charter tool at >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ >Let's use this tool from now on. > >Feedback is always welcome. > >Regards, Benoit > >_______________________________________________ >Lime mailing list >Lime@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:08:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE391A005B for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vi-_sCOJ9f2N for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D0B01A0024 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMZ73271; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:08:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:08:19 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:08:12 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqwJXO3kiRrwU2I1XVMlx2YFJwR0K9A Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:08:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/eUgx6Wjx7SX_zyHIFLdWSFStDy8 Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:08:27 -0000 TG9va3MgZ3JlYXQuDQpDb3VsZCB0aGUgc2Vjb25kIGRlbGl2ZXJhYmxlIGluIHRoZSBDaGFydGVy IGJlIG1vcmUgY2xlYXI/IEUuZy4sDQoiQXBwbGljYWJpbGl0eSBvZiB0aG9zZSBZQU5HIG1vZGVs KHMpIHNwZWNpZmllZCBpbiB0aGlzIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgaW4gdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIE9BTSB0 ZWNobm9sb2dpZXMuIg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzIQ0KLVFpbg0KLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQq3orz+ yMs6IExpbWUgW21haWx0bzpsaW1lLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddILT6se0gQmVub2l0IENsYWlz ZQ0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTTE6jnUwjI1yNUgMjA6MTcNCsrVvP7IyzogbGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K 1vfM4jogW0xpbWVdIE5ldyBMSU1FIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdGV4dA0KDQpEZWFyIGFsbCwNCg0KSSBwcm9k dWNlZCBhIG5ldyBMSU1FIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdmVyc2lvbiBiYXNlZCBvbiBhbGwgdGhlIGZlZWRiYWNr Lg0KSXQncyBub3cgaW4gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdG9vbCBhdCANCmh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIu aWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2NoYXJ0ZXItaWV0Zi1saW1lLw0KTGV0J3MgdXNlIHRoaXMgdG9vbCBmcm9t IG5vdyBvbi4NCg0KRmVlZGJhY2sgaXMgYWx3YXlzIHdlbGNvbWUuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsIEJlbm9p dA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTGlt ZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0K From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:12:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9756B1A0056 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lw2WqCpFrGIW for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CB6A1A005B for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:12:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1748; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411650724; x=1412860324; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=I15WGJ/XjfEDKRaDVxVTE1+qlhmfkd3YdL++DRpRjug=; b=W9+wFQmH89f2ywCX1WrqayVJXQMLOfgbb3i0u+EEOHxPpo7fBBTz5lSK 43vJxZ/8302mHwX86gis0p7nOIYxre1Avo5Rx+1qa1RmJHIODfX2715gh 80hT5smara9XBgh/jpNGXJ5Ft2suLwcZH8C4XiC5NoVMpskTIANn+h176 s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjkFAHwTJFStJV2P/2dsb2JhbABgDoMAU1cEylwKh04CgQMWAXuEAwEBAQQBAQE3NBcEAgEIEQQBAQEeCQcnCxQJCAIEARKIPg3CTAETBJAlBoRFBZFghDqHCZVWgyNAbIFIgQIBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,597,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="358145262" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 13:12:03 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com [173.36.12.84]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8PDC2Wn011710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:12:02 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.166]) by xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com ([173.36.12.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 08:12:01 -0500 From: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" , "King, Daniel" , Tom Taylor , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2Lqyu8qATs30JU2jYIT0hM8uAJwSG2kAgAABQ4CAAAP4gP//wz2A Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:12:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B013@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <54240F57.7080709@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54240F57.7080709@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.2.140509 x-originating-ip: [10.21.76.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/rqe4pLJqvh1U60C46_eH-GBNbco Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:12:04 -0000 Benoit, looks good. One more nit as below, S/imitations/limitations Thanks, Nagendra On 9/25/14, 8:49 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" wrote: >On 25/09/2014 14:35, King, Daniel wrote: >> Just want to echo Tom's comments. Looks great! >> >> Only one NIT (xacerbated\exacerbated) :-) >Corrected. > >Regards, Benoit >> >> D >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor >> Sent: 25 September 2014 13:31 >> To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >> >> That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original >>guidance, which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of >>conclusions to be factored in. This is clearly much more what people >>want to work on. >> >> Tom T >> >> On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. >>> It's now in the charter tool at >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ >>> Let's use this tool from now on. >>> >>> Feedback is always welcome. >>> >>> Regards, Benoit >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lime mailing list >>> Lime@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >> > >_______________________________________________ >Lime mailing list >Lime@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:19:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE8A1A00AB for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tgD3pAUnhWr3 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B62BF1A00B2 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJX61130; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:19:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:19:04 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:19:00 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Benoit Claise" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqwJXO3kiRrwU2I1XVMlx2YFJwRSEwAgACKPOA= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:19:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/BnBMlgqVl-DXRmHL7b7NB5HfFX0 Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:19:15 -0000 WWVzLCBIZXJlIGlzIG15IHByb3Bvc2VkIGNoYW5nZToNCk5FVyBURVhUOg0KIg0KQXBwbGljYWJp bGl0eSBvZiB0aG9zZSBZQU5HIG1vZGVsKHMpIHNwZWNpZmllZCBpbiB0aGlzIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3Jv dXAgaW4gdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIE9BTSB0ZWNobm9sb2dpZXMNCnRvIGRlbW9uc3RyYXRlIHRoZSB1 c2FiaWxpdHkgYW5kIGV4dGVuc2liaWxpdHkgb2YgWUFORyBtb2RlbChzKSBzcGVjaWZpZWQgaW4g dGhpcyB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwDQphbmQgaWRlbnRpZnkgdGhlIGdhcHMgZm9yIHRoZSB0ZWNobm9s b2d5LXNwZWNpZmljIG1vZGVsIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgZm9yIGVuaGFuY2VkIGNvbnRyb2wgYW5kIHJl cG9ydGluZyBmcm9tIHRob3NlIHByb3RvY29scy4NCk5vdGUgZGF0YSBtb2RlbCBleHRlbnNpb25z IHNob3VsZCBpZGVhbGx5IGJlIHdvcmtlZCBvbiBpbiB0aGUgcmVzcGVjdGl2ZSB3b3JraW5nIGdy b3Vwcy4NCiINCg0KUmVnYXJkcyENCi1RaW4NCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7 tuS6ujogTGltZSBbbWFpbHRvOmxpbWUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIG1vaGFtZWQu Ym91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb20NCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDnmnIgyNeaXpSAyMDo1 NQ0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlDQrmioTpgIE6IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mi mDogUmU6IFtMaW1lXSBOZXcgTElNRSBjaGFydGVyIHRleHQNCg0KUmUtLA0KDQpUaGlzIHRleHQg aXMgcmVwZWF0ZWQ6IA0KDQoiIFRob3NlIFlBTkcgbW9kZWwocykgc3BlY2lmaWVkIGluIHRoaXMg d29ya2luZyBncm91cCBtdXN0IGJlIHVzYWJsZSBhbmQgZXh0ZW5zaWJsZSBieSB0aGUgZXhpc3Rp bmcgT0FNIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcy4gVGhpcyB1c2FiaWxpdHkgYW5kIGV4dGVuc2liaWxpdHkgbXVz dCBiZSBkZW1vbnN0cmF0ZWQsIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIHdpdGggSVAgUGluZywgdHJhY2Vyb3V0ZSwg QkZELCBhbmQgTFNQIFBpbmcuDQpOb3RlIHRoZSB0ZWNobm9sb2d5LXNwZWNpZmljIGRhdGEgbW9k ZWwgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucyBzaG91bGQgaWRlYWxseSBiZSB3b3JrZWQgb24gaW4gdGhlIHJlc3BlY3Rp dmUgd29ya2luZyBncm91cHMuIg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpNZWQNCg0KPi0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29y aWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPkRlwqA6IExpbWUgW21haWx0bzpsaW1lLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIERl IGxhIHBhcnQgZGUgQmVub2l0IENsYWlzZSANCj5FbnZvecOpwqA6IGpldWRpIDI1IHNlcHRlbWJy ZSAyMDE0IDE0OjE3IMOAwqA6IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcgT2JqZXTCoDogW0xpbWVdIA0KPk5ldyBM SU1FIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdGV4dA0KPg0KPkRlYXIgYWxsLA0KPg0KPkkgcHJvZHVjZWQgYSBuZXcgTElN RSBjaGFydGVyIHZlcnNpb24gYmFzZWQgb24gYWxsIHRoZSBmZWVkYmFjay4NCj5JdCdzIG5vdyBp biB0aGUgY2hhcnRlciB0b29sIGF0DQo+aHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2Mv Y2hhcnRlci1pZXRmLWxpbWUvDQo+TGV0J3MgdXNlIHRoaXMgdG9vbCBmcm9tIG5vdyBvbi4NCj4N Cj5GZWVkYmFjayBpcyBhbHdheXMgd2VsY29tZS4NCj4NCj5SZWdhcmRzLCBCZW5vaXQNCj4NCj5f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPkxpbWUgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQo+TGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KTGltZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0K From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:25:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232421A00B2 for ; 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SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(377454003)(479174003)(13464003)(189002)(199003)(51704005)(24454002)(77096002)(76576001)(83072002)(31966008)(106116001)(92566001)(76482002)(33646002)(86362001)(85852003)(106356001)(2501002)(76176999)(2656002)(99396003)(64706001)(50986999)(20776003)(15975445006)(66066001)(79102003)(19580405001)(90102001)(54356999)(85306004)(87936001)(107046002)(83322001)(74502003)(80022003)(95666004)(108616004)(77982003)(81342003)(97736003)(74316001)(19580395003)(4396001)(99286002)(120916001)(105586002)(107886001)(21056001)(81542003)(10300001)(46102003)(101416001)(74662003)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CO1PR05MB442; H:CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/PQ6Ss1r5KWn3gIqCVkl5NIjwN2o Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:25:22 -0000 +1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of King, Daniel > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:35 AM > To: Tom Taylor; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >=20 > Just want to echo Tom's comments. Looks great! >=20 > Only one NIT (xacerbated\exacerbated) :-) >=20 > D >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor > Sent: 25 September 2014 13:31 > To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >=20 > That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original guidan= ce, > which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of conclusions to = be > factored in. This is clearly much more what people want to work on. >=20 > Tom T >=20 > On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. > > It's now in the charter tool at > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ > > Let's use this tool from now on. > > > > Feedback is always welcome. > > > > Regards, Benoit > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lime mailing list > > Lime@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:32:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD461A6FCF for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0YyPuoZtstx for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x235.google.com (mail-la0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A674C1A00F2 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id ty20so67146lab.26 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:31:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9Lm62cQ6TIu2piT72eC8J+UFMmBVCM2KCFLFvBDW4w8=; b=bhx5ZCDU4JGhq2JjRkhpON3CduQj+rDaZyFM/mL1rrSe0voIVPUvCjGIcrbAPwcJjT vhiZaM5YLmcHGArpUr8zCWGI2h57tHpnWPDCFdaKUkqY0ewWXcpslBxuDO7qQLg+ORVH 9OUVAr1MTpkG3QCiMj3fjyL5/6TR8x11XbbUNP9ToccNocADkBoWlGARZZqewk8lYR/0 ikDaaCrAhzmInWj1uEa6wrJzLoIUkj30wSxDgoc0cYZPnpLEs5ckccIDkZifTpuRvfEW mlOKq7rN7KpFuURCkhHfpCu1t+Zzd+J1zmjDXgJdaJOuT34hH795b1rYlNIyz+vkjcgg YrAA== X-Received: by 10.112.4.33 with SMTP id h1mr12397052lbh.67.1411651914954; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.17.0.20] ([83.150.126.201]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 3sm820178lam.43.2014.09.25.06.31.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54241948.5030206@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:31:52 +0300 From: Jouni Korhonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lime@ietf.org References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/CUS82vZqivPC1G_2CmBPDFSBLHQ Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:31:58 -0000 9/25/2014 4:19 PM, Qin Wu kirjoitti: > Yes, Here is my proposed change: > NEW TEXT: > " > Applicability of those YANG model(s) specified in this working group in the existing > OAM technologies to demonstrate the usability and extensibility of YANG model(s) > specified in this working group I am not really able to parse the above. > and identify the gaps for the technology-specific model extensions for enhanced > control and reporting from those protocols. Note data model extensions should > ideally be worked on in the respective working groups. > " I also suggest dividing this huge sentence to two.. - Jouni > > Regards! > -Qin > -----邮件原件----- > å‘件人: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > å‘é€æ—¶é—´: 2014å¹´9月25æ—¥ 20:55 > 收件人: Benoit Claise > 抄é€: lime@ietf.org > 主题: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text > > Re-, > > This text is repeated: > > " Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping. > Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the respective working groups." > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise >> Envoyé : jeudi 25 septembre 2014 14:17 À : lime@ietf.org Objet : [Lime] >> New LIME charter text >> >> Dear all, >> >> I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. >> It's now in the charter tool at >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ >> Let's use this tool from now on. >> >> Feedback is always welcome. >> >> Regards, Benoit >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:42:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D24F1A0081 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:41:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SUBZYzTYhsBc for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14C9F1A00CF for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BMZ76693; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:41:53 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:41:47 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Jouni Korhonen , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqwJXO3kiRrwU2I1XVMlx2YFJwRSEwAgACKPOD//4AIAIAAiBVA Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:41:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <54241948.5030206@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54241948.5030206@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Vr5OAE-cjeHkD7D79PJOU5MDVoU Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:41:58 -0000 LS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGltZS1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSDku6PooaggSm91bmkgS29yaG9uZW4NCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5 tDnmnIgyNeaXpSAyMTozMg0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQrkuLvpopg6IFJlOiBb TGltZV0gTmV3IExJTUUgY2hhcnRlciB0ZXh0DQoNCg0KOS8yNS8yMDE0IDQ6MTkgUE0sIFFpbiBX dSBraXJqb2l0dGk6DQo+IFllcywgSGVyZSBpcyBteSBwcm9wb3NlZCBjaGFuZ2U6DQo+IE5FVyBU RVhUOg0KPiAiDQo+IEFwcGxpY2FiaWxpdHkgb2YgdGhvc2UgWUFORyBtb2RlbChzKSBzcGVjaWZp ZWQgaW4gdGhpcyB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIA0KPiBpbiB0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgT0FNIHRlY2hub2xv Z2llcyB0byBkZW1vbnN0cmF0ZSB0aGUgdXNhYmlsaXR5IGFuZCANCj4gZXh0ZW5zaWJpbGl0eSBv ZiBZQU5HIG1vZGVsKHMpDQogPiBzcGVjaWZpZWQgaW4gdGhpcyB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwDQoNCkkg YW0gbm90IHJlYWxseSBhYmxlIHRvIHBhcnNlIHRoZSBhYm92ZS4NCg0KW1Fpbl06IHdoYXQgSSBs aWtlIHRvIHNheSBpcyB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIGRvY3VtZW50IGFwcGxpY2FiaWxpdHkgb2YgWUFORyBt b2RlbCBzcGVjaWZpZWQgaW4gTElNRSBhbmQgc2hvdyBob3cgdGhlDQogTElNRSBkZWZpbmVkIGdl bmVyaWMgZGF0YSBtb2RlbHMgY2FuIGJlIGFwcGxpZWQgdG8gc3BlY2lmaWMgdGVjaG5vbG9neSBP QU0NCiBQcm90b2NvbHMuDQoNCj4gYW5kIGlkZW50aWZ5IHRoZSBnYXBzIGZvciB0aGUgdGVjaG5v bG9neS1zcGVjaWZpYyBtb2RlbCBleHRlbnNpb25zIGZvciANCj4gZW5oYW5jZWQNCiA+IGNvbnRy b2wgYW5kIHJlcG9ydGluZyBmcm9tIHRob3NlIHByb3RvY29scy4gTm90ZSBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIGV4 dGVuc2lvbnMgc2hvdWxkICA+IGlkZWFsbHkgYmUgd29ya2VkIG9uIGluIHRoZSByZXNwZWN0aXZl IHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXBzLg0KPiAiDQoNCkkgYWxzbyBzdWdnZXN0IGRpdmlkaW5nIHRoaXMgaHVn ZSBzZW50ZW5jZSB0byB0d28uLg0KDQpbUWluXTogQWdyZWUuDQoNCi0gSm91bmkNCg0KDQo+DQo+ IFJlZ2FyZHMhDQo+IC1RaW4NCj4gLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0KPiDlj5Hku7bkuro6 IExpbWUgW21haWx0bzpsaW1lLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIOS7o+ihqCBtb2hhbWVkLmJvdWNh ZGFpckBvcmFuZ2UuY29tDQo+IOWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDnmnIgyNeaXpSAyMDo1NQ0K PiDmlLbku7bkuro6IEJlbm9pdCBDbGFpc2UNCj4g5oqE6YCBOiBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IOS4 u+mimDogUmU6IFtMaW1lXSBOZXcgTElNRSBjaGFydGVyIHRleHQNCj4NCj4gUmUtLA0KPg0KPiBU aGlzIHRleHQgaXMgcmVwZWF0ZWQ6DQo+DQo+ICIgVGhvc2UgWUFORyBtb2RlbChzKSBzcGVjaWZp ZWQgaW4gdGhpcyB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIG11c3QgYmUgdXNhYmxlIGFuZCBleHRlbnNpYmxlIGJ5 IHRoZSBleGlzdGluZyBPQU0gdGVjaG5vbG9naWVzLiBUaGlzIHVzYWJpbGl0eSBhbmQgZXh0ZW5z aWJpbGl0eSBtdXN0IGJlIGRlbW9uc3RyYXRlZCwgZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUgd2l0aCBJUCBQaW5nLCB0 cmFjZXJvdXRlLCBCRkQsIGFuZCBMU1AgUGluZy4NCj4gTm90ZSB0aGUgdGVjaG5vbG9neS1zcGVj aWZpYyBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgc2hvdWxkIGlkZWFsbHkgYmUgd29ya2VkIG9uIGlu IHRoZSByZXNwZWN0aXZlIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXBzLiINCj4NCj4gQ2hlZXJzLA0KPiBNZWQNCj4N Cj4+IC0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPj4gRGUgOiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGlt ZS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBEZSBsYSBwYXJ0IGRlIEJlbm9pdCBDbGFpc2UNCj4+IEVudm95 w6kgOiBqZXVkaSAyNSBzZXB0ZW1icmUgMjAxNCAxNDoxNyDDgCA6IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcgT2Jq ZXQgOiBbTGltZV0NCj4+IE5ldyBMSU1FIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdGV4dA0KPj4NCj4+IERlYXIgYWxsLA0K Pj4NCj4+IEkgcHJvZHVjZWQgYSBuZXcgTElNRSBjaGFydGVyIHZlcnNpb24gYmFzZWQgb24gYWxs IHRoZSBmZWVkYmFjay4NCj4+IEl0J3Mgbm93IGluIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIHRvb2wgYXQNCj4+IGh0 dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2NoYXJ0ZXItaWV0Zi1saW1lLw0KPj4gTGV0 J3MgdXNlIHRoaXMgdG9vbCBmcm9tIG5vdyBvbi4NCj4+DQo+PiBGZWVkYmFjayBpcyBhbHdheXMg d2VsY29tZS4NCj4+DQo+PiBSZWdhcmRzLCBCZW5vaXQNCj4+DQo+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gTGltZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+ IExpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v bGltZQ0KPg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Xw0KPiBMaW1lIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMaW1lIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMaW1lQGlldGYu b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0KPg0KDQpf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTGltZSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vbGltZQ0K From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:42:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051891A00CF for ; 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25 Sep 2014 15:42:09 +0200 Received: from HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([169.254.5.99]) by HE111631.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:42:08 +0200 From: To: , , , , Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:42:06 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2Lqr7oOdsM2mP0mj1XzdBEIsu5wRx5cAgAABQ4CAAA3fkIAAAtug Message-ID: <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879F99@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B013@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <9145e46c7a3b45239425b620a36757c5@CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <9145e46c7a3b45239425b620a36757c5@CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/qHPijTqJYQkyLM6yK3sJ1HhSncU Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:42:14 -0000 Hi all, this text is included twice, -> intention? "Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibili= ty must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Pi= ng. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked= on in the respective working groups." Proposal based on Qin comment, as substitute for the second text/repetition= : The WG will ensure applicability of those YANG model(s) specified in this w= orking group in the existing OAM technologies to demonstrate the=20 usability and extensibility of YANG model(s) specified in this working grou= p and identify the gaps for the technology-specific model extensions=20 for enhanced control and reporting from those protocols. Remove: "Note data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the resp= ective working groups." in the second text/repetition Regards=20 Roland Schott -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Ronald Bonica Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 15:25 An: King, Daniel; Tom Taylor; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text +1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of King, Daniel > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:35 AM > To: Tom Taylor; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >=20 > Just want to echo Tom's comments. Looks great! >=20 > Only one NIT (xacerbated\exacerbated) :-) >=20 > D >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor > Sent: 25 September 2014 13:31 > To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >=20 > That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original=20 > guidance, which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of=20 > conclusions to be factored in. This is clearly much more what people want= to work on. >=20 > Tom T >=20 > On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. > > It's now in the charter tool at > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ > > Let's use this tool from now on. > > > > Feedback is always welcome. > > > > Regards, Benoit > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lime mailing list > > Lime@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:52:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F214E1A00D8 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoKDwFO0OyN6 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B4AF1A0081 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:52:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1117; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411653169; x=1412862769; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vPEeK8DYagG/qZ/hcvjKNEy8eGqUMC6AccKexaRvaw8=; b=Ni5UAX9tbPI0iu4PqPM75SMB0vax4AiUkNiMxEL+V44Y/pbTpS5egX4A TlwcAACB0BZD4L9gdOZKesmazbaZGM1PPLKyzTRPheyFS/EwQpPDZ+n4d Yz3m7I7yj3EYwAKBkoy4aBIxbAEYVeAAHvd8hFDB1s9FOE9hWzapDuFWs 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ar0EAMwdJFStJssW/2dsb2JhbABgg2FXymAKh04CgRgBe4QEAQEEAQEBLwEFNgoBEAshFggHCQMCAQIBFR8REwEFAgEBiDoNwg8BEwSQHgcWhDUBBI9IhlKHCYdNjgmDZTsvgkoBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,597,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="184643536" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2014 13:52:30 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8PDqUCn021184; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:52:30 GMT Message-ID: <54241E1E.6090108@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:52:30 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/i3KApqGYAOwPhPI26trvmzHPJsE Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:52:51 -0000 Good catch Med. Version 00-04 posted Regards, Benoit > Re-, > > This text is repeated: > > " Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and > extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility > must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping. > Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked on > in the respective working groups." > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise >> Envoyé : jeudi 25 septembre 2014 14:17 >> À : lime@ietf.org >> Objet : [Lime] New LIME charter text >> >> Dear all, >> >> I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. >> It's now in the charter tool at >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ >> Let's use this tool from now on. >> >> Feedback is always welcome. >> >> Regards, Benoit >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 06:59:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7366C1A0108 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M9jAFpatdTWG for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BBBD1A0111 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 58ADF324628; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.56]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 1103E4C095; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::1818:f6b8:8936:f9e3]) by OPEXCLILH04.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([10.114.31.56]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:59:41 +0200 From: To: Benoit Claise Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2MfyftWojinzQUuVhm+GcTCQyJwR31dg Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:59:39 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008DFC2@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <54241E1E.6090108@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54241E1E.6090108@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.9.24.93919 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/MQkZM-J04I_bsV7o4assFyg0x7k Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:59:52 -0000 Re-, Looks good to me. Thank you. Cheers, Med >-----Message d'origine----- >De=A0: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise >Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 25 septembre 2014 15:53 >=C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >Cc=A0: lime@ietf.org >Objet=A0: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text > >Good catch Med. > >Version 00-04 posted > >Regards, Benoit >> Re-, >> >> This text is repeated: >> >> " Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and >> extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and >extensibility >> must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP >Ping. >> Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be >worked on >> in the respective working groups." >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise >>> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 25 septembre 2014 14:17 >>> =C0 : lime@ietf.org >>> Objet : [Lime] New LIME charter text >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. >>> It's now in the charter tool at >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ >>> Let's use this tool from now on. >>> >>> Feedback is always welcome. >>> >>> Regards, Benoit >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lime mailing list >>> Lime@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > >_______________________________________________ >Lime mailing list >Lime@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 07:09:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635E41A00F9 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 07:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fj6JUADpAQEO for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 07:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 830911A00CF for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 07:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 1925B32489C; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:09:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.186]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 013824C083; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:09:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::81f:1640:4749:5d13]) by PEXCVZYH01.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:07:42 +0200 From: To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqrAXIkfRHnlkCMJGPRWFG605wRxiTw Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:07:42 +0000 Message-ID: <21756_1411654145_54242201_21756_9778_1_11027135CD0DCE41B9C193E3D72577381424E5A3@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.197.38.4] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_11027135CD0DCE41B9C193E3D72577381424E5A3PEXCVZYM12corpo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.9.25.103022 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/HrPUvBLGr8WwA6utcvDrjTOT9ZE Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:09:13 -0000 --_002_11027135CD0DCE41B9C193E3D72577381424E5A3PEXCVZYM12corpo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all,=20 See my comments in the text (LIME charter draft) attached Regards Tayeb ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. 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AAoAAABNU1dvcmREb2MAEAAAAFdvcmQuRG9jdW1lbnQuOAD0ObJxAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --_002_11027135CD0DCE41B9C193E3D72577381424E5A3PEXCVZYM12corpo_-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 11:08:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3D71A8764 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M3PdWPlkFscY for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ignavia.lancs.ac.uk (ignavia.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.25.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C5C1A8765 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ex-0-ht0.lancs.ac.uk ([10.42.18.47] helo=EX-0-HT0.lancs.local) by ignavia.lancs.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XXDSF-0006hA-3K for lime@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:07:47 +0100 Received: from EX-0-MB2.lancs.local ([fe80::9d98:936b:54d1:c531]) by EX-0-HT0.lancs.local ([fe80::7d10:114a:53b0:7f2f%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:07:46 +0100 From: "King, Daniel" To: "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version of the LIME Use Case I-D Thread-Index: Ac/Y83/hHgFI9bXvSoaZDHGAbjsaHw== Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:07:46 +0000 Message-ID: <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B23D@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [87.65.165.3] x-iss-local-domain: 1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B23DEX0MB2lancsloca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/8mr1xeZgc-e7x7uWJWOJBO4NQYs Subject: [Lime] New Version of the LIME Use Case I-D X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:07:59 -0000 --_000_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B23DEX0MB2lancsloca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, We recently uploaded a new version of the LIME Use Cases Internet-Draft: Use Cases and Requirements for Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-la= yer Environments https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-king-opsawg-lime-multi-layer-oam-use-case-0= 0 As always, comments are very welcome. Br, Dan & the Use Case I-D team. --_000_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B23DEX0MB2lancsloca_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

 

We recently uploaded a new vers= ion of the LIME Use Cases Internet-Draft:

 

Use Cases and Requirements for = Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-layer Environments

https://tools.iet= f.org/id/draft-king-opsawg-lime-multi-layer-oam-use-case-00<= /span>

 

As always, comments are very we= lcome.

 

Br, Dan & the Use Case I-D = team.

 

--_000_65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B23DEX0MB2lancsloca_-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 12:33:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3A11A0336 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kg9NmA6Q9jwH for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB3E1A0331 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.172.144; From: "Susan Hares" To: , , , , , References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <54240AF4.4090507@gmail.com> <65174429B5AF4C45BD0798810EC48E0A3236B013@EX-0-MB2.lancs.local> <9145e46c7a3b45239425b620a36757c5@CO1PR05MB442.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879F99@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> In-Reply-To: <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879F99@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:32:45 -0400 Message-ID: <008d01cfd8f7$7c04ba00$740e2e00$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQGl4065ffpt8CXqlKUSqQd/zRE8FAGnjuPfAgTVZNgBfPzuUgDqmMIknDWIdeA= X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/JakjDlOlm_brXEA6onTvjQF5cOQ Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:33:01 -0000 +1 on this version of text=20 Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland.Schott@telekom.de Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 9:42 AM To: rbonica@juniper.net; d.king@lancaster.ac.uk; = tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com; bclaise@cisco.com; lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text Hi all, this text is included twice, -> intention? "Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, = traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be = worked on in the respective working groups." Proposal based on Qin comment, as substitute for the second = text/repetition: The WG will ensure applicability of those YANG model(s) specified in = this working group in the existing OAM technologies to demonstrate the = usability and extensibility of YANG model(s) specified in this working group and identify the gaps for the technology-specific model extensions for = enhanced control and reporting from those protocols. Remove: "Note data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the respective working groups." in the second text/repetition Regards=20 Roland Schott -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Ronald Bonica Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 15:25 An: King, Daniel; Tom Taylor; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text +1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of King, Daniel > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:35 AM > To: Tom Taylor; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >=20 > Just want to echo Tom's comments. Looks great! >=20 > Only one NIT (xacerbated\exacerbated) :-) >=20 > D >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Taylor > Sent: 25 September 2014 13:31 > To: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text >=20 > That looks great. I really misinterpreted your and Joel's original=20 > guidance, which I took to be limiting rather than an initial set of=20 > conclusions to be factored in. This is clearly much more what people = want to work on. >=20 > Tom T >=20 > On 25/09/2014 8:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I produced a new LIME charter version based on all the feedback. > > It's now in the charter tool at > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/ > > Let's use this tool from now on. > > > > Feedback is always welcome. > > > > Regards, Benoit > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lime mailing list > > Lime@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 12:42:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820611A0323 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:42:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQxArRNjw_hJ for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6E31A0349 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.172.144; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Benoit Claise'" , References: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 15:42:10 -0400 Message-ID: <009401cfd8f8$cccba1a0$6662e4e0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQEf6tGukKbm2+w8KUNgpDpAN1rFJZ1yG9Pg X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/4Rg-rqS-ma9xVy2iILl3P9i0GnY Cc: 'Adrian Farrel' , 'Alia Atlas' Subject: Re: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:42:21 -0000 Benoit: The protocol specific extensions should go to the protocol WGs. Sue -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 6:26 AM To: lime@ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas Subject: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension Dear all, I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIME data model(s) does/do the right job. That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific extensions be standardized? Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this extra deliverable: . Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked on in the respective working groups. Regards, Benoit _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Thu Sep 25 14:49:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873321A02F6 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:49:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eSbXHEOMmqqK for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4585A1A034F for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.172.144; From: "Susan Hares" To: , "'Benoit Claise'" , "'Qin Wu'" , References: <5421E23F.1050204@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300822D3@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:49:43 -0400 Message-ID: <00ea01cfd90a$9e2c2fb0$da848f10$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EB_01CFD8E9.171DEB10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQHvmPnZQBEspU4sQl1YuA3NsMYcoAFPawWnARVCeaSbv5D9YA== X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/wIw-fiQBRHDfNSlAeg3XuvEZpY4 Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design Team X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:49:54 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01CFD8E9.171DEB10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Med: =20 Benoit had convinced me IM models so we could agree on DM language was useful. However, if you are at already defined configuration =96 is it necessary? I do agree it has been useful to IM for I2RS first round definitions. =20 Sue=20 =20 From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:37 AM To: Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design = Team =20 Hi Benoit, =20 I=92m one of those who voiced during the DT discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter.=20 =20 I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, not only has the = merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease inter-SDOs discussion (which I would expect and encourage for this topic).=20 =20 Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other SDOs may have their =93favorite=94 DM too. =20 Cheers, Med =20 De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise Envoy=E9 : mardi 23 septembre 2014 23:13 =C0 : Qin Wu; lime@iet f.org Objet : Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update discussion in Design = Team =20 Dear all,=20 [I removed the people in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed] Thanks to all of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting = point. See in line for some answers/questions. Hi, all: Centering around the Consolidated Charter proposal we posted below: https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal=20 =20 We Charter Design team have a very good offline discussion yesterday on = it.=20 Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main issues are sufficiently discussed: 1. Shall we document use case for converged management of OAM in = multi-layer and multi-technology =20 Networks? Shall we publish it? The rough agreement is we should document use cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case document. That makes sense to me. =20 2. Do we need to deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define = DM? We reach agreement that we should develop both. The step is to develop = IM first and DM should be based on this IM. For the sake of completeness, let me cut/paste here my feedback from http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html In my charter reviews since I became OPS AD, I've been stressing the = need to have an information model before specifying the data model(s), = especially for WGs that still need to determine their management requirements: fault, configuration, accounting, performance? push/pull? OAM or not? ... Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG. The growing interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to go. So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's necessary to = go with an information model first? I would say no, but could be convinced otherwise. =20 3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to be considered? It looks most of people think Yes. But IETF should focus on using YANG = as DML. See point 2. What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and monitors OAM. However, = I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see the point to go in that direction. Some more feedback: - "It will also produce architectural guidelines for the development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may be coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated across layers." I would say "... more easily integrated from an operational points of = view". This work is about "OAM Management" after all. - "YANG data models, based on above mentioned IM, for generic layer-independent and technology-independent configuration, reporting and presentation for OAM mechanisms. Data models expressed in other languages than YANG may be considered." So, you guys want to create the generic data model(s), or you also want = to have the specific extensions for the IETF OAM mechanisms? If the = extensions are not done here, where? In the respective WGs? Ideally, we should have one data model, generic enough to be augmented = for all the OAM specific configuration/operational objects. - I believe that the following deliverable needs some clarification: An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as guidance by other working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology that is within scope for the IETF.=20 There are two distinct points: architecture and guidance 1. an architecture.=20 Which "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model on? I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement (I = don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably other architectures. Do we want to mention in the charter: "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been there before) 2. the guidance.=20 Whether this guidance speak about management plane only or also about = data plane should be mentioned. - "The initial scope is restricted to a single administrative domain and may be extended for inter-domain scenarios in future as and when a need rises" That's a good limitation IMO. - Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence "(including, but not limited = to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP)" include the MEF? I'm sure MEF deals with OAM. - At this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. Note: deadline is Sept 26th (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91) And if we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader community. Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement for a WG = creation. Regards, Benoit =20 =20 We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and post it = to the list soon. =20 Regards! -Qin . =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01CFD8E9.171DEB10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Med:

 

Benoit had convinced me IM models so we could agree on DM language = was useful.=A0 However, if you are at already defined configuration = – is it necessary?=A0 I do agree it has been useful to IM for I2RS = first round definitions.

 

Sue

 

From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Sent: Wednesday, September = 24, 2014 7:37 AM
To: Benoit Claise; Qin Wu; = lime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update = discussion in Design Team

 

Hi = Benoit,

 

I’m one of those who voiced during the DT = discussion for calling out explicitly IMs in the charter. =

 

I see a value in documenting IMs first as doing so, = not only has the merit to hide protocol specificities, but it would ease = inter-SDOs discussion (which I would expect and encourage for this = topic).

 

Of course, there is an IETF recommended DM but other = SDOs may have their “favorite” DM = too.

 

Cheers,

Med

 

De : Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] = De la part de Benoit Claise
Envoy=E9 : mardi 23 = septembre 2014 23:13
=C0 : Qin Wu; lime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Lime] LIME Charter Proposal update = discussion in Design Team

 

Dear all,

[I removed the people = in cc, otherwise the mailer complaints "Too many recipients to the = message". Hopefully, everybody is subscribed]

Thanks to all = of you who worked on the charter. It is a good starting point.
See in = line for some answers/questions.

Hi, =
all:
Centering around the Consolidated Charter =
proposal we posted below:
https://github.com/danielkinguk/lime/tree/master/charter-proposal =

 
We Charter Design team =
have a very good offline discussion yesterday on it. =

Summarizing what we discussed so far, three main =
issues are sufficiently discussed:
1. Shall we =
document use case for converged management of OAM in multi-layer and =
multi-technology  
Networks? Shall we publish =
it?
The rough agreement is we should document use =
cases and LIME will decide later whether to publish use case =
document.

That makes sense to = me.

 
2. Do we need to =
deliver both IM and DM and shall we go directly define =
DM?
We reach agreement that we should develop both. =
The step is to develop IM first and DM should be based on this =
IM.

For the sake of completeness, let me = cut/paste here my feedback from = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00047.html<= /o:p>

In my charter reviews since I became OPS = AD, I've been stressing the need to have an information model before = specifying the data model(s), especially for WGs that still need to = determine their management requirements:
    fault, = configuration, accounting, performance?
    = push/pull?
    OAM or not?
    = ...
Now, the LIME work is special: it's specific to configuration, = and for configuration there is a primary language: YANG.
The growing = interest in YANG throughout the industry proves YANG is the right way to = go.
So I'm wondering if, in this SPECIFIC (potential) WG, it's = necessary to go with an information model first? I would say no, but = could be convinced otherwise.

 
3. Do we allow other Data modeling Language(DML) besides YANG to =
be considered?
It looks most of people think Yes. =
But IETF should focus on using YANG as =
DML.

See point = 2.
What about DML do you have in mind? SMI? Well, it could = potentially make sense to augment a MIB module that configures and = monitors OAM. However, I don't know of any at the IETF. So I don't see = the point to go in that direction.


Some more feedback:
- = "It will also produce architectural guidelines for = the
development of new OAM tools and protocols so that they may = be
coherent with these mechanisms and more easily integrated = across
layers."
I would say "... more easily integrated = from an operational points of view".
This work is about = "OAM Management" after all.

- "YANG data models, = based on above mentioned IM, for generic
layer-independent and = technology-independent configuration,
reporting and presentation for = OAM mechanisms. Data models
expressed in other languages than YANG = may be considered."
So, you guys want to create the generic data = model(s), or you also want to have the specific extensions for the IETF = OAM mechanisms? If the extensions are not done here, where? In the = respective WGs?
Ideally, we should have one data model, generic = enough to be augmented for all the OAM specific = configuration/operational objects.

- I believe that the following = deliverable needs some clarification:

An architecture for new IETF OAM that can be used as = guidance by
other working groups developing new OAM protocols or = modifying
existing OAM protocols at any layer and for any technology = that is
within scope for the IETF.

There are two distinct = points: architecture and guidance
1. an architecture.
Which = "architecture" do you want to build this generic data model = on?
I heard some of you want to use the IEEE CFM? Is there agreement = (I don't think this was discussed on the list)? There are most probably = other architectures.
Do we want to mention in the charter: = "review existing architecture"? However, please, let's not go = into a beauty contest that will take years (yes, I've been there = before)
2. the guidance.
Whether this guidance speak about = management plane only or also about data plane should be = mentioned.

-  "The initial scope is restricted to a = single administrative domain
and may be extended for inter-domain = scenarios in future as and
when a need rises"
That's a good = limitation IMO.

- Speaking of SDOs, shouldn't the sentence = "(including, but not limited to the ITU-T, IEEE, BBF and = 3GPP)" include the MEF?
I'm sure MEF deals with OAM.

- At = this point in time, I believe you should request a BoF at the next IETF. = Note: deadline is Sept 26th (htt= p://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html#IETF91)
And if = we converge quickly, we could potentially shoot for a WG creation = before/at Honolulu, depending on the feedback received from the broader = community.
Let's keep in mind that a BoF is not a hard requirement = for a WG creation.

Regards, = Benoit

 
 
We will update our charter proposal based on the discussion and =
post it to the list =
soon.
 
Regards!
-Qin
.
 <=
/o:p>
 
------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01CFD8E9.171DEB10-- From nobody Thu Sep 25 19:26:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941D21A03AB for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mjfdTHpQyfQ8 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9CA21A03AA for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNA19752; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:26:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 03:26:04 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:25:59 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Benoit Claise" Thread-Topic: [Lime] New LIME charter text Thread-Index: AQHP2LqwJXO3kiRrwU2I1XVMlx2YFJwRSEwAgAAQBwCAAAIAgIABVobw Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:25:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330089E93@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <54241E1E.6090108@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008DFC2@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008DFC2@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/fxG1_didVjyIjniJydXTSU-mFfw Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:26:08 -0000 KzENCldvcmtzIGZvciBtZS4NCi0tLS0t6YKu5Lu25Y6f5Lu2LS0tLS0NCuWPkeS7tuS6ujogTGlt ZSBbbWFpbHRvOmxpbWUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10g5Luj6KGoIG1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWly QG9yYW5nZS5jb20NCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAxNOW5tDnmnIgyNeaXpSAyMjowMA0K5pS25Lu2 5Lq6OiBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlDQrmioTpgIE6IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCuS4u+mimDogUmU6IFtM aW1lXSBOZXcgTElNRSBjaGFydGVyIHRleHQNCg0KUmUtLA0KDQpMb29rcyBnb29kIHRvIG1lLiBU aGFuayB5b3UuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+LS0tLS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0t DQo+RGXCoDogTGltZSBbbWFpbHRvOmxpbWUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gRGUgbGEgcGFydCBk ZSBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlIA0KPkVudm95w6nCoDogamV1ZGkgMjUgc2VwdGVtYnJlIDIwMTQgMTU6 NTMgw4DCoDogQk9VQ0FEQUlSIE1vaGFtZWQgSU1UL09MTiBDY8KgDQo+OiBsaW1lQGlldGYub3Jn IE9iamV0wqA6IFJlOiBbTGltZV0gTmV3IExJTUUgY2hhcnRlciB0ZXh0DQo+DQo+R29vZCBjYXRj aCBNZWQuDQo+DQo+VmVyc2lvbiAwMC0wNCBwb3N0ZWQNCj4NCj5SZWdhcmRzLCBCZW5vaXQNCj4+ IFJlLSwNCj4+DQo+PiBUaGlzIHRleHQgaXMgcmVwZWF0ZWQ6DQo+Pg0KPj4gIiBUaG9zZSBZQU5H IG1vZGVsKHMpIHNwZWNpZmllZCBpbiB0aGlzIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgbXVzdCBiZSB1c2FibGUg DQo+PiBhbmQgZXh0ZW5zaWJsZSBieSB0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgT0FNIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcy4gVGhp cyB1c2FiaWxpdHkgYW5kDQo+ZXh0ZW5zaWJpbGl0eQ0KPj4gbXVzdCBiZSBkZW1vbnN0cmF0ZWQs IGZvciBleGFtcGxlIHdpdGggSVAgUGluZywgdHJhY2Vyb3V0ZSwgQkZELCBhbmQgDQo+PiBMU1AN Cj5QaW5nLg0KPj4gTm90ZSB0aGUgdGVjaG5vbG9neS1zcGVjaWZpYyBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIGV4dGVu c2lvbnMgc2hvdWxkIGlkZWFsbHkgYmUNCj53b3JrZWQgb24NCj4+IGluIHRoZSByZXNwZWN0aXZl IHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXBzLiINCj4+DQo+PiBDaGVlcnMsDQo+PiBNZWQNCj4+DQo+Pj4gLS0tLS1N ZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+Pj4gRGUgOiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGltZS1ib3VuY2Vz QGlldGYub3JnXSBEZSBsYSBwYXJ0IGRlIEJlbm9pdCBDbGFpc2UgDQo+Pj4gRW52b3nDqSA6IGpl dWRpIDI1IHNlcHRlbWJyZSAyMDE0IDE0OjE3IMOAIDogbGltZUBpZXRmLm9yZyBPYmpldCA6IA0K Pj4+IFtMaW1lXSBOZXcgTElNRSBjaGFydGVyIHRleHQNCj4+Pg0KPj4+IERlYXIgYWxsLA0KPj4+ DQo+Pj4gSSBwcm9kdWNlZCBhIG5ldyBMSU1FIGNoYXJ0ZXIgdmVyc2lvbiBiYXNlZCBvbiBhbGwg dGhlIGZlZWRiYWNrLg0KPj4+IEl0J3Mgbm93IGluIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIHRvb2wgYXQNCj4+PiBo dHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9jaGFydGVyLWlldGYtbGltZS8NCj4+PiBM ZXQncyB1c2UgdGhpcyB0b29sIGZyb20gbm93IG9uLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gRmVlZGJhY2sgaXMgYWx3 YXlzIHdlbGNvbWUuDQo+Pj4NCj4+PiBSZWdhcmRzLCBCZW5vaXQNCj4+Pg0KPj4+IF9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+Pj4gTGltZSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4+PiBMaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9saW1lDQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18NCj5MaW1lIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xpbWUNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkxpbWUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpMaW1lQGll dGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xpbWUNCg== From nobody Fri Sep 26 02:10:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1885D1A1AAA for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:10:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptF7PqFqlcFz for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 717981A1AA4 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:10:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1188; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411722619; x=1412932219; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ih1/mWpTMNezXLE0dZwLHvOpP4qHUbIgMKmFrXCuGj0=; b=I8TmzGob1712ImgDHsWraMrpEe+EqqcHVbmJILCYAeyex9d2Whsepebm H9Pj69FxqLD4cZy/7ofdfNASgEhOl3GX5OAMjwFVsL+ytuPLjTpKth2gX 3+jbzodzYfPgiJt8hNFU30Lhdh3ojFeISqaKlfMa8FEzaHHpdVkY2B67U 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqEEADwsJVStJssW/2dsb2JhbABg1kcCgRoBe4QEAQEEOEARCyEWDwkDAgECAUUGAQwIAQGIOsEEARePPBEBV4RLAQSPS41bh1GOCYNlO4E+gTsBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,603,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="189720369" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Sep 2014 09:10:17 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8Q9AHk2006452; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:10:17 GMT Message-ID: <54252D79.1060304@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 11:10:17 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tayeb.benmeriem@orange.com, "lime@ietf.org" References: <542407CE.3090708@cisco.com> <21756_1411654145_54242201_21756_9778_1_11027135CD0DCE41B9C193E3D72577381424E5A3@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <21756_1411654145_54242201_21756_9778_1_11027135CD0DCE41B9C193E3D72577381424E5A3@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/2w5SeOmiPisWf5ZnaCquYNpHUV4 Subject: Re: [Lime] New LIME charter text X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:10:21 -0000 Thanks Tayeb for the pointers. Regards, Benoit > Dear all, > > See my comments in the text (LIME charter draft) attached > > Regards > > Tayeb > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > From nobody Fri Sep 26 02:31:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6A61A1AB4 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:31:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dd3faxJISu34 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 273481A0311 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:31:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=309; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411723897; x=1412933497; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=EZRZC3Um5VFk0qxqT+TE9pjdou2ZRifPkUB4rorawPk=; b=iq7veyHfw+kOJvwyts0DZI3A8Sq+8S9VlGRS1EovLVNOtbIlfn+11vnL INmeZvO8icIEDPCYNxrFI23YVMCd/yLgY0m76VA5TviUQar+IssApcJsF JOBvVv8C5Z/gd/2rlyqpj1j3VC56IQsTFlBOojYV6vmXh4Ms2Y9xZiZft U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AuQGAOQxJVStJssW/2dsb2JhbABg12oBcgmEQkA9FhgDAgECAUsNCAEBEIgqmz6lPBiUcAEEnSaHUY4Jg2U7gnkBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,603,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="190389482" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Sep 2014 09:31:36 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8Q9VZAY013515 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:31:35 GMT Message-ID: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 11:31:35 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lime@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/4R7U2E9OT3T6rlmJjSSDxWmm6cQ Subject: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:31:39 -0000 Dear all, Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough community support. At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. Regards, Benoit From nobody Fri Sep 26 07:27:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D282C1A7002 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:27:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9usS_T0ikKoC for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E186D1A1BA7 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJY64906; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:26:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 15:23:28 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 22:23:22 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Milestones for YANG Thread-Index: Ac/ZlWxdWn07PT+oTfu1Vj0u7TQIDA== Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:23:21 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F2DFAnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/RwgsgJT02CdH5KrBdy90b9hnZQM Subject: [Lime] Milestones for YANG X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:27:02 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F2DFAnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benoit, Thanks for the way you have progressed LIME. It is exciting to know there m= ight be a working group in time for Honolulu. Looking at the milestones I suggest replacing > Apr 2016 - Applicability document Submitted to IESG for review with Apr 2016 - Applicability document(s) explaining how the generic YANG model= s can be applied to existing OAM tools Submitted to IESG for review This change makes it more clear what the applicability documents are for. Thanks, Qin --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F2DFAnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Benoit,=

 

Thanks for the way you have = progressed LIME. It is exciting to know there might be a working group in t= ime for Honolulu.

 

Looking at the milestones I = suggest replacing

 

> Apr 2016  - Applic= ability document Submitted to IESG for review

 

with

 

Apr 2016  - Applicabili= ty document(s) explaining how the generic YANG models can be applied to exi= sting OAM tools Submitted to IESG for review

 

This change makes it more cl= ear what the applicability documents are for.

 

Thanks,

Qin

 

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA845F2DFAnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Fri Sep 26 07:36:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4521A88E1 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YAiN3r2zqT-C for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C99221A886C for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:35:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5494; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411742155; x=1412951755; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to; bh=7Qk69cH8HiJoQqd+aur/OglHksGRnQrwsc0CFRTWSUA=; b=MbnhppsU5+83MQzG24JM16yatWKbeeLviXB3RGBsgQDv9LyJss2Fv2AJ a8P3CBGjfOFLAGm5GOryVq9n0hQrA4jbMa2DDxoSFokFq1sCi8R8gSfvV I2NtIU7fJ9j69eaSDY88tMSqjNmJJnxQ1iewR2Go7Fx9rkwpLI9JMxWBM I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AugEAHp4JVStJssW/2dsb2JhbABggkiKTMk7AoEdAXuEBAEBAwEtSwYLCw4TFg8JAwIBAgFFBgEMCAEBiDIIwAkBF5AlhEsBBJhbhEuHUYRpiSCDZTuCeQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,604,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="190651040" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Sep 2014 14:35:53 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8QEZqi5004716; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:35:52 GMT Message-ID: <542579C8.1090501@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 16:35:52 +0200 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Qin Wu , "lime@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010704030007040102000609" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/SS3OxkHjVWTw-baVR7JVF_DzYDk Subject: Re: [Lime] Milestones for YANG X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:35:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010704030007040102000609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good catch. I modified the charter to introduce "applicability" in the deliverable bullet point. Also, I changed the deliverable order in a more logical way. Regards, Benoit > > Hi Benoit, > > Thanks for the way you have progressed LIME. It is exciting to know > there might be a working group in time for Honolulu. > > Looking at the milestones I suggest replacing > > > Apr 2016 - Applicability document Submitted to IESG for review > > with > > Apr 2016 - Applicability document(s) explaining how the generic YANG > models can be applied to existing OAM tools Submitted to IESG for review > > This change makes it more clear what the applicability documents are for. > > Thanks, > > Qin > --------------010704030007040102000609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Good catch.
I modified the charter to introduce "applicability" in the deliverable bullet point.
Also, I changed the deliverable order in a more logical way.

Regards, Benoit

Hi Benoit,

 

Thanks for the way you have progressed LIME. It is exciting to know there might be a working group in time for Honolulu.

 

Looking at the milestones I suggest replacing

 

> Apr 2016  - Applicability document Submitted to IESG for review

 

with

 

Apr 2016  - Applicability document(s) explaining how the generic YANG models can be applied to existing OAM tools Submitted to IESG for review

 

This change makes it more clear what the applicability documents are for.

 

Thanks,

Qin

 


--------------010704030007040102000609-- From nobody Fri Sep 26 07:57:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6060C1A893C for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:57:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uzZGBi_qTlNd for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B80C41A00E5 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-f79206d0000014d2-24-5425287a884d Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B8.33.05330.A7825245; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:48:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:57:13 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thread-Index: AQHP2Wywo88QeSdS10yNn5LTh4cSGpwTgEtQ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:57:13 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B85257C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn26VhmqIwZ2/VhZHH0tYdGzbzuTA 5DHl90ZWjyVLfjIFMEVx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZTx4cpO5YDN7xa/Vy1gaGNvYuhg5OCQETCR+ 73DtYuQEMsUkLtxbDxTm4hASOMoocfDQciYIZzmjxN3vv9hBqtgEjCRebOwBs0UE3CRmLNgF ZgsLaEtc/b0DKq4j0b94DguEbSTx8+tRVhCbRUBV4sWLX8wgNq+Ar8TCn8/AaoQENCS+zloD VsMpoCnx7OIRNhCbEeii76fWMIHYzALiEreezGeCuFRAYsme88wQtqjEy8f/WCFsJYlJS8+x QtTrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNdReQYmTM5+wTGAUnYVk7CwkLbOQtMxC0rKAkWUVI0dpcWpZbrqR wSZGYCwck2DT3cG456XlIUYBDkYlHl6FCJUQIdbEsuLK3EOM0hwsSuK8s2rnBQsJpCeWpGan phakFsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpgrNPV3+zrvktopb5hsPsqJY3Dm6dsVvLMfXzcecfpV1O+bDx7 6mdcRxdfpPsfKa6Zxn/Mj+fOzvivP2PS/oW5R/tEXAKNrs0Ryr9dOvuQ6e+3uv+WzfvscVXI im9vWqWnpkSfbJnpnZ/7v4T91bstIP12Y9fUTTNc7eVXec39UZl2SVaH5ZcCtxJLcUaioRZz UXEiAHB2vCVmAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Gvr1SnmeMINs1BaxiA5Dvm1HDLI Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:57:18 -0000 Dear Benoit, thank you for dedicating your time and expertise to this effort. I believe = that the problem we've formulated and direction chartered are both practica= l and useful. We're for a great ride! Looking forward. And my congratulations to Qin who had started it all! Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 2:32 AM To: lime@ietf.org Subject: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Dear all, Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough community = support. At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. Regards, Benoit _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Fri Sep 26 13:14:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A3F1A0410 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 13:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.286 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0NYS5XtEoL0Y for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 13:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D70FB1A0320 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7272; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411762467; x=1412972067; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=I+Wm7hM9ntU8Wy/J9NqXf+OEnDXzbZG6/FHrF+IcANw=; b=fDRVrvAlqNhhLaPWM+vQN7Rzo58cqBpN1tEVKwQIYTNaSmfcmB3g+8jS sGtza+0vVK09d/IbXFZz+YKZy1SDGh40DEhUOzSSXiv01QMN7Yp13rkaQ AbROHtFed1S+bMBCP/sX85el9saAK5GmIusDANzxs+jjCHVqxs6enX1+O s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0FANjIJVStJV2T/2dsb2JhbABfgmsjU00KBMo8AQmHTgKBDRYBe4QEAQEEAQEBaAMLEAIBCD8HJwsUEQIEDgUUB4gjAQy/JAETBJAeB4MugR0FixOEOIIYi0OVXINjbIFIgQIBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,606,1406592000"; d="scan'208,217";a="358569196" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Sep 2014 20:14:26 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com [173.37.183.77]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8QKEP2h026960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2014 20:14:25 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([fe80::8c1c:7b85:56de:ffd1]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 15:14:25 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" Thread-Topic: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension Thread-Index: AQHP2Kskx0YwObTlpUWEYVh/YxLa7pwSA0UAgAAXJQCAAhQzgA== Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 20:14:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5423EDAC.1030704@cisco.com> <580BEA5E3B99744AB1F5BFF5E9A3C67D1AC0879DC5@HE111648.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> <54240A04.2040802@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54240A04.2040802@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.82.230.211] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8A45371D48345E3A23485FBE1365721ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/fmvwbuDg0fUxNDslSVw7XAJfiIQ Cc: "Roland.Schott@telekom.de" , Alia Atlas , "lime@ietf.org" , Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 20:14:29 -0000 --_000_E8A45371D48345E3A23485FBE1365721ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 25, 2014, at 1:26 PM, Benoit Claise > wrote: Hi Roland, Dear all, how is this ensured? This is the dilemma. On one side, we have to ensure usability and extensibility. One the other side, It's not right to include the OAM protocol-specific ext= ensions into the LIME charter. Let's pick BFD, there is a BFD WG where the = experts are. So the only solution is to stress the requirement in the charter and to tru= st the ADs, the WG chairs, and the community. Is it that way that LIME might work on protocol-specific extensions (if int= erested) or won't work on these extensions (excluded)? I don't want to have strict rules for now. Hence the phrasing: "should idea= lly be worked on in the respective working group". What is important (and I guess that Adrian & Alia share this view) is that = the key experts are involved in producing a auality document. >From there, where the document ends up in the end is less important IMO. I agree -- and the most efficient way of getting the experts involved is in= the protocol WGs. LIME would have to ensure a strong link and coordination= with those WGs, as well as review and contribution make sure those protoco= l-specific extensions fit the generic model. Thanks, Carlos. Regards, Benoit Regards Roland -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Benoit Claise Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 12:26 An: lime@ietf.org Cc: Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas Betreff: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension Dear all, I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIM= E data model(s) does/do the right job. That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific exten= sions be standardized? Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this ex= tra deliverable: . Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and ex= tensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility= must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP P= ing. Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked= on in the respective working groups. Regards, Benoit _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime . _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime --_000_E8A45371D48345E3A23485FBE1365721ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <3B4832E7B5E95342AB5D9C31516300CE@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sep 25, 2014, at 1:26 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Roland,
Dear all,

how is this ensured?
This is the dilemma.
On one side, we have to ensure usability and extensibility.
One the other side, It's not right to include the OAM protocol-specific ext= ensions into the LIME charter. Let's pick BFD, there is a BFD WG where the = experts are.

So the only solution is to stress the requirement in the charter and to tru= st the ADs, the WG chairs, and the community.
Is it that way that LIME might work on protocol-specific ext=
ensions (if interested)
or won't work on these extensions (excluded)?
I don't want to have strict rules for now. Hence the phrasing: "should= ideally be worked on in the respective working group".
What is important (and I guess that Adrian & Alia share this view) is t= hat the key experts are involved in producing a auality document.
>From there, where the document ends up in the end is less important IMO.

I agree -- and the most efficient way of getting the experts involved = is in the protocol WGs. LIME would have to ensure a strong link and coordin= ation with those WGs, as well as review and contribution make sure those pr= otocol-specific extensions fit the generic model.

Thanks,

Carlos.

Regards, Benoit

Regards

Roland


-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Benoit Claise
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. September 2014 12:26
An: lim=
e@ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas
Betreff: [Lime] Generic Model and protocol-specific extension

Dear all,

I've been having a concern related to: how do we check that the generic LIM=
E data model(s) does/do the right job.
That lead to the another question: where should the protocol-specific exten=
sions be standardized?

Based on a discussion with our routing AD Adrian Farrel, we propose this ex=
tra deliverable:

. Those YANG model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and ex=
tensible by the existing OAM technologies. This usability and extensibility=
 must be demonstrated, for example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP P=
ing.
Note the technology-specific data model extensions should ideally be worked=
 on in the respective working groups.

Regards, Benoit

_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ie=
tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime
.

_______________________________________________
Lime mailing list
Lime@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime

--_000_E8A45371D48345E3A23485FBE1365721ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Sep 26 18:28:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EEE1A00A9 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:28:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csuup7bd4ZTc for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01B281A00F4 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f171.google.com with SMTP id h3so338772igd.10 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PlfcDFcXdamuH62saFz6sfEv87+uozbpXuW4u0c9ZCU=; b=guCB/bVLbNU77ZT4M22tJqx5ohtPk2h8DKZ3wv0ifgSmGvaM1gqOzrKCVHsfR+jMRU FivplHU5DXDQ2aCPFqXL806/hRGi3KRFdz6YoI5dgc23HQ52aYQuanm2J7XVDjVRtwp6 8fL5fhkZNlk4wm5asoxmNDrER/3zdnPenuKuMNre7KrizDJFFRQT25Ad0Lk2gP2PQNPS llRqfAoUc0TUpbPEfWardm8dxDxMyFnOkbrM3YUQmVA2MRmkwR7EXFB1o5U/tdSKPzpD OF8Gm1qD9vOv3Ux6wXVh9xpehG0MkNoNcsI4mNjp6Qy0rI7j8Q0tz2/JJt1vCpV+XUpo 9/qQ== X-Received: by 10.42.191.136 with SMTP id dm8mr22569388icb.23.1411781278357; Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.103] (dsl-173-206-166-234.tor.primus.ca. [173.206.166.234]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j4sm3290146igx.20.2014.09.26.18.27.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5426129D.5060006@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 21:27:57 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIME References: <20140927012042.24538.10408.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140927012042.24538.10408.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20140927012042.24538.10408.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/2XZeElo82oUxovPdphqbIEyIgNg Subject: [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-02.txt X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 01:28:01 -0000 The predicted political adjustment to the list of authors. No other changes. Tom T -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-02.txt Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:20:42 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Tom Taylor , Qin Wu , Dan Romascanu , Mishael Wexler , T. Taylor , Mishael Wexler , Dan Romascanu , Qin Wu A new version of I-D, draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-02.txt has been successfully submitted by T. Taylor and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps Revision: 02 Title: Problem Statement for Layer and Technology Independent OAM in a Multi- Layer Environment Document date: 2014-09-26 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 16 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-02 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-edprop-opsawg-multi-layer-oam-ps-02 Abstract: Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) mechanisms are critical building blocks in network operations. They used for service fulfillment assurance, and for service diagnosis, troubleshooting, and repair. The current practice is that many technologies rely on their own OAM protocols and procedures that are exclusive to a given layer. At present, there is little consolidation of OAM in the management plane or well-documented inter-layer OAM operation. Vendors and operators dedicate significant resources and effort through the whole OAM life-cycle each time a new technology is introduced. This is exacerbated when dealing with integration of OAM into overlay networks, which require better OAM visibility since there is no method to exchange OAM information between overlay and underlay. This document analyzes the problem space for multi-layer OAM in the management plane with a focus on layer and technology independent OAM management considerations. It concludes that an attempt to define an architecture for consolidated management should be undertaken, and if this attempt satisfies key objectives, a gap analysis and a program of standardization should follow. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Sat Sep 27 13:35:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBEB11A015B for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SfCeHwdI7hql for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F8091A02FE for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1491; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411850112; x=1413059712; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=xg3bDnadS2adi+3cG+BbQkZe01Wd5jXfHGh7t1djXmg=; b=lMTXpCSD9M+57S1QS0d0yAZ8x9Z/v3ttzu8VwGgwu0YdOas6ro9wME6D KxSAAt82stXXpRDv+fIPON15Ypt1cg5kP/K3F8hrxRMEi88UWSE5xF8xX MYqwieNQwdWLAzVpJLbrJm9+ylqVMB0KxTo4XMSDzOB0rJzBFUT2lSLcH w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQFAEcfJ1StJV2T/2dsb2JhbABggmsjU00OyFcKh05+FgF7hAQBAQMBAQEBNzQLBQsCAQgSJBAnCxcOAgQOBRSIIggBDL40ARMEj2szgzWBHQWPS4Iai0OVXYNjbIFIgQIBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,610,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="81914570" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2014 20:35:09 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com [173.37.183.81]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8RKZ84K017967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 20:35:08 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([fe80::8c1c:7b85:56de:ffd1]) by xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com ([173.37.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:35:08 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thread-Index: AQHP2Wyv5M4n6vsdk0K7/DYFujYkXg== Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 20:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: <41FE4AC0-D6E1-469D-8B1C-6197F9386F66@cisco.com> References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.82.209.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/BcnMPzdNnmhVZwo3IHz6__aAJv0 Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 20:35:14 -0000 Thanks for uploading the new versions of the charter, including all the act= ual charter updates as well as the draft milestones we sent out and updated= . I think that the milestones need some more work. In addition to correcting = typo's and grammo's, soem details seem missing. Here's a proposal: Milestones: Feb 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on generic OAM YANG data model(s) May 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on the LIME Architecture Jun 2015 - WG Adoption of the Use-Cases document. Note this document might = not be published as an RFC Aug 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on the Applicability of the generic model(s) Sep 2015 - Submit the YANG model(s) document to the IESG as a Proposed Stan= dards RFC Nov 2015 - Submit the Architecture document to the IESG as an Informational= RFC Apr 2016 - Submit the Applicability document to the IESG as an Information= al RFC Apr 2016 - Recharter or conclude Thanks, Carlos. On Sep 26, 2014, at 5:31 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. > I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough communit= y support. > At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. > Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. >=20 > Regards, Benoit >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Sat Sep 27 13:48:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C709E1A0406 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wV0pmDWIDHz6 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFDED1A0342 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:48:10 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-f79916d00000623a-9a-5426c9bac5dd Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 34.16.25146.AB9C6245; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:29:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:48:03 -0400 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thread-Index: AQHP2Wywo88QeSdS10yNn5LTh4cSGpwVc5CQ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 20:48:03 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B852B4F@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> <41FE4AC0-D6E1-469D-8B1C-6197F9386F66@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <41FE4AC0-D6E1-469D-8B1C-6197F9386F66@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiO6uk2ohBpuXG1ocfSxh8endDhaL jm3bmRyYPab83sjqsWTJT6YApigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujO6emewF64Ur9v38wdjAeIa/i5GT Q0LAROJ9/ztWCFtM4sK99WxdjFwcQgJHGSWW7/nNCuEsZ5RoejAfrIpNwEjixcYedhBbRCBd YsbVBYwgNrOAssS9T//A4sIC2hJXf++AqtGR6F88hwXCNpJY8vI+WJxFQFViz/0PYDN5BXwl Trx6AmYLCURLbN/3GqyGU8BW4kL7CzYQmxHouu+n1jBB7BKXuPVkPhPE1QISS/acZ4awRSVe Pv4H9Y2SxJzX15gh6nUkFuz+xAZha0ssW/iaGWKvoMTJmU9YJjCKzUIydhaSlllIWmYhaVnA yLKKkaO0OLUsN93IcBMjMF6OSbA57mBc8MnyEKMAB6MSD++Dh6ohQqyJZcWVuYcYpTlYlMR5 NavnBQsJpCeWpGanphakFsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpgnBI0xW3Thvf/A6+XpPc2/1YS8p+vvr0+ 8tTlmwUODf9PPsjfckyxstpRVv/e64+cX7U/cXK+EX+3QOxn/+SJds9jLeY6LuaYsSZosenG /IR5HzaZP/m8yeLV2VlF1e/k3zO/yk5s2HI/7ZJO3DWOZskVb5d8ev1PvpcrwvjzwxvZThW+ 0vVVU5VYijMSDbWYi4oTAa+mEqN4AgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/d4Y9LMazJZ7zy8I0BrZ9IqHNyEI Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 20:48:13 -0000 Hi Carlos, thank you for your valuable suggestion to the milestones. I think that before the WG can adopt any contribution on generic OAM we nee= d to discuss the model, the paradigm of Generic OAM - scope, models, toolse= t. After there's agreement on what Generic OAM actually is, then, I agree, = the WG may consider adopting YANG model. I think that work and discussion o= f the LIME Architecture may include discussion of Generic OAM. If Generic O= AM is within the scope of LIME, then YANG DM of the G-OAM becomes part of L= IME YANG DM work. What do you think? Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cp= ignata) Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 1:35 PM To: Benoit Claise (bclaise) Cc: lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thanks for uploading the new versions of the charter, including all the act= ual charter updates as well as the draft milestones we sent out and updated= . I think that the milestones need some more work. In addition to correcting = typo's and grammo's, soem details seem missing. Here's a proposal: Milestones: Feb 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on generic OAM YANG data model(s) May 2015 - = Adopt the WG draft on the LIME Architecture Jun 2015 - WG Adoption of the U= se-Cases document. Note this document might not be published as an RFC Aug = 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on the Applicability of the generic model(s) Sep = 2015 - Submit the YANG model(s) document to the IESG as a Proposed Standard= s RFC Nov 2015 - Submit the Architecture document to the IESG as an Informa= tional RFC Apr 2016 - Submit the Applicability document to the IESG as an = Informational RFC Apr 2016 - Recharter or conclude Thanks, Carlos. On Sep 26, 2014, at 5:31 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. > I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough communit= y support. > At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. > Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. >=20 > Regards, Benoit >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Sat Sep 27 14:07:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A74D1A0410 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:07:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JrFsdEHu0sRn for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 188C11A0406 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:07:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3198; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411852047; x=1413061647; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=7JEFBDO2ecfceGjKujV6PdAh0Bqp3t0o63nveCJGlG4=; b=U7SYhLeeWj/HEssshmER/NjlBgZyoLGP9ee3faIEic/KEO96KjP56U5N ScBzE8u1hwOfnLjnJT9jk5q93IcDPk1Xc5pfePvPSCxG+DraRzxN6oK9x 9WD+VdwK/7+d4mIXvNTyENUv0yzTF/0jSkHW6stuS92JxQ64DyYcgunuW M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQFAHUmJ1StJA2K/2dsb2JhbABggmsjU1vIVwqHTgJ8FgF7hAMBAQEDAQEBATc0CwUHBAIBCBEBAwEBAR4JBycLFAMGCAIEDgUUiCIIAQy+PAETBI9rMwcGgyiBHQWPS4IahDqHCZVdg2NsgUiBAgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,610,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="81924404" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2014 21:07:26 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com [173.37.183.82]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8RL7Pjs021375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2014 21:07:25 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([fe80::8c1c:7b85:56de:ffd1]) by xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com ([173.37.183.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:07:24 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Gregory Mirsky Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thread-Index: AQHP2Wyv5M4n6vsdk0K7/DYFujYkXpwVyaGAgAAFaAA= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 21:07:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> <41FE4AC0-D6E1-469D-8B1C-6197F9386F66@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B852B4F@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B852B4F@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.82.209.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4E4B5AED5B96E54EB39481526A4EC4A9@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/KmGspeDN_FXl5jUWgf9otb9lK2w Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 21:07:28 -0000 Hi Greg, Yes, I agree that some of the specifics of the definition of what Generic O= AM (as you say, "G-OAM") is will come and build from the understanding of t= he paradigm, models, and architecture. But, to me, that does not mean that = we cannot make progress on the G-OAM YANG model(s). I believe that the char= ter text (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/) already give= s enough definition to get us started, and includes the fact that G-OAM is = within scope. Thanks, Carlos. On Sep 27, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Gregory Mirsky w= rote: > Hi Carlos, > thank you for your valuable suggestion to the milestones. > I think that before the WG can adopt any contribution on generic OAM we n= eed to discuss the model, the paradigm of Generic OAM - scope, models, tool= set. After there's agreement on what Generic OAM actually is, then, I agree= , the WG may consider adopting YANG model. I think that work and discussion= of the LIME Architecture may include discussion of Generic OAM. If Generic= OAM is within the scope of LIME, then YANG DM of the G-OAM becomes part of= LIME YANG DM work. >=20 > What do you think? >=20 > Regards, > Greg >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (= cpignata) > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 1:35 PM > To: Benoit Claise (bclaise) > Cc: lime@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step >=20 > Thanks for uploading the new versions of the charter, including all the a= ctual charter updates as well as the draft milestones we sent out and updat= ed. >=20 > I think that the milestones need some more work. In addition to correctin= g typo's and grammo's, soem details seem missing. >=20 > Here's a proposal: >=20 > Milestones: > Feb 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on generic OAM YANG data model(s) May 2015 = - Adopt the WG draft on the LIME Architecture Jun 2015 - WG Adoption of the= Use-Cases document. Note this document might not be published as an RFC Au= g 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on the Applicability of the generic model(s) Se= p 2015 - Submit the YANG model(s) document to the IESG as a Proposed Standa= rds RFC Nov 2015 - Submit the Architecture document to the IESG as an Infor= mational RFC Apr 2016 - Submit the Applicability document to the IESG as a= n Informational RFC Apr 2016 - Recharter or conclude >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Carlos. >=20 > On Sep 26, 2014, at 5:31 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: >=20 >> Dear all, >>=20 >> Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. >> I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough communi= ty support. >> At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. >> Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. >>=20 >> Regards, Benoit >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Sat Sep 27 17:49:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D7D1A0086 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t6jrQHbF9XsX for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 079541A007D for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BJZ52184; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:49:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 01:49:03 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 08:48:59 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Gregory Mirsky , Benoit Claise , "lime@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thread-Index: AQHP2Wy22EqSYPjzGkqAuAUSVMzMrpwS+1mAgAK7auA= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:48:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B85257C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B85257C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Lf53PTYN_yuXmdCDNd9RWVanINk Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:49:07 -0000 Oi0pLCBHcmVnLCB5b3Ugc2hvdWxkIGtub3cgaG93IGhhcmQgaXQgaXMgdG8gZW5nYWdlIHRoZSBy aWdodCBwZW9wbGUgYXQgdGhlIGJlZ2lubmluZy4NClRoYW5rcyBHcmVnIGFuZCBhbGwgdGhlIGNv bW11bml0eSBjb250aW51aW5nIHN1cHBvcnQgaW4gdGhlIHByb2Nlc3MsIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlc2Ug c3VwcG9ydCwgd2Ugd291bGQgbm90IGhhdmUgbWFrZSBzbyByYXBpZCBwcm9ncmVzcy4NCg0KUmVn YXJkcyENCi1RaW4NCi0tLS0t08q8/tStvP4tLS0tLQ0Kt6K8/sjLOiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGlt ZS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSC0+rHtIEdyZWdvcnkgTWlyc2t5DQq3osvNyrG85DogMjAxNMTq OdTCMjbI1SAyMjo1Nw0KytW8/sjLOiBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlOyBsaW1lQGlldGYub3JnDQrW98zi OiBSZTogW0xpbWVdIExJTUUgY2hhcnRlcjogbmV4dCBzdGVwDQoNCkRlYXIgQmVub2l0LA0KdGhh bmsgeW91IGZvciBkZWRpY2F0aW5nIHlvdXIgdGltZSBhbmQgZXhwZXJ0aXNlIHRvIHRoaXMgZWZm b3J0LiBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB3ZSd2ZSBmb3JtdWxhdGVkIGFuZCBkaXJl Y3Rpb24gY2hhcnRlcmVkIGFyZSBib3RoIHByYWN0aWNhbCBhbmQgdXNlZnVsLiBXZSdyZSBmb3Ig YSBncmVhdCByaWRlISBMb29raW5nIGZvcndhcmQuDQoNCkFuZCBteSBjb25ncmF0dWxhdGlvbnMg dG8gUWluIHdobyBoYWQgc3RhcnRlZCBpdCBhbGwhDQoNCglSZWdhcmRzLA0KCQlHcmVnDQoNCi0t LS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBMaW1lIFttYWlsdG86bGltZS1ib3VuY2Vz QGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgQmVub2l0IENsYWlzZQ0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBTZXB0 ZW1iZXIgMjYsIDIwMTQgMjozMiBBTQ0KVG86IGxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFtMaW1l XSBMSU1FIGNoYXJ0ZXI6IG5leHQgc3RlcA0KDQpEZWFyIGFsbCwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIHRvIGFsbCB3 aG8gY29udHJpYnV0ZWQgdG8gdGhpcyBwcm9wb3NlZCBjaGFydGVyIHNvIGZhci4NCkkgYmVsaWV2 ZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgY2hhcnRlciBpcyBub3cgc3RhYmxlIGVub3VnaCwgYW5kIGhhcyBlbm91Z2gg Y29tbXVuaXR5IHN1cHBvcnQuDQpBdCB0aGlzIHBvaW50IGluIHRpbWUsIHdlIHdhbnQgdG8gZ2V0 IGZlZWRiYWNrIGZyb20gdGhlIElFU0cuDQpUaGVyZWZvcmUgdGhpcyBjaGFydGVyIGlzIG9uIHRo ZSBJRVNHIHRlbGVjaGF0IG5leHQgVGh1cnNkYXkuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsIEJlbm9pdA0KDQpfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTGltZSBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vbGltZQ0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Xw0KTGltZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkxpbWVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbGltZQ0K From nobody Sat Sep 27 18:04:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF311A0100 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.734 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.734 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DPw_6fMklhTs for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37B21A00FE for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.172.144; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Qin Wu'" , "'Gregory Mirsky'" , "'Benoit Claise'" , References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B85257C@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 21:03:53 -0400 Message-ID: <000301cfdab8$1300f060$3902d120$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKmTEVh1NaGaLQbUwnVP4CHCcvr9gKJHxU6AgnvysqaRD8VcA== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/fqmd5q4Qt7tfx87diUK68YgFHM8 Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 01:04:00 -0000 Qin and Greg: You have done a great job! Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:49 PM To: Gregory Mirsky; Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step :-), Greg, you should know how hard it is to engage the right people at = the beginning. Thanks Greg and all the community continuing support in the process, = without these support, we would not have make so rapid progress. Regards! -Qin -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Gregory Mirsky =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2014=C4=EA9=D4=C226=C8=D5 22:57 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Benoit Claise; lime@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Dear Benoit, thank you for dedicating your time and expertise to this effort. I = believe that the problem we've formulated and direction chartered are both = practical and useful. We're for a great ride! Looking forward. And my congratulations to Qin who had started it all! Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 2:32 AM To: lime@ietf.org Subject: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Dear all, Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough = community support. At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. Regards, Benoit _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime _______________________________________________ Lime mailing list Lime@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime From nobody Sat Sep 27 18:22:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9F51A00C0 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:22:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1XlxGJG1IGc for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 687861A0086 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 18:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNB72062; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 01:22:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 02:22:28 +0100 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.21]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 09:22:24 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Gregory Mirsky Thread-Topic: [Lime] LIME charter: next step Thread-Index: AQHP2Wy22EqSYPjzGkqAuAUSVMzMrpwU77OAgAAFZ4CAAMaSsA== Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 01:22:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> <41FE4AC0-D6E1-469D-8B1C-6197F9386F66@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B852B4F@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.41.180] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/dCKyz47RXtI1BRThTb1WfVB9SSM Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." 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lime@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A6A01A6D3F for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.786, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IjoKna9sBbI1 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77E391A3BA9 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 14:28:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3354; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1411939735; x=1413149335; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WPUFaUyg757mA+D8BAV1YiyUkIjvUhEcB05fJgOwenc=; b=XMzzs4zTLoV0YVJPGJM+cv+Kmi/2NI9lxx0toIfRFQ6Gmdy6YgAWzZQx OJ2gSq6elmn34YHfloPbtnFuTA7rZc63rIKq9e/CekXvrKEGQ+aP7TvC9 eFoL2Z+w5b6f92lgxQMAqRM9JhtSlMGrXwxQI+iodc5vclMgMvejINT/p Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,615,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="358731874" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Sep 2014 21:28:55 +0000 Received: from [10.82.234.186] (rtp-vpn5-696.cisco.com [10.82.234.186]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s8SLSsGO015608; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 21:28:54 GMT Message-ID: <54287D96.3030301@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 17:28:54 -0400 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Gregory Mirsky References: <54253277.5090701@cisco.com> <41FE4AC0-D6E1-469D-8B1C-6197F9386F66@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1121B852B4F@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/gNQV_6gOAqwJ2QwCmy64bsqDtxY Cc: "lime@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step X-BeenThere: lime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Layer Independent OAM Management in Multi-Layer Environment \(LIME\) discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 21:28:57 -0000 Carlos, Greg, The WG is not about a generic OAM, but it's about a generic data model for OAM technologies. Note: the deliverables are now slightly modified according to your advice. Regards, Benoit > Hi Greg, > > Yes, I agree that some of the specifics of the definition of what Generic OAM (as you say, "G-OAM") is will come and build from the understanding of the paradigm, models, and architecture. But, to me, that does not mean that we cannot make progress on the G-OAM YANG model(s). I believe that the charter text (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-lime/) already gives enough definition to get us started, and includes the fact that G-OAM is within scope. > > Thanks, > > Carlos. > > On Sep 27, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > >> Hi Carlos, >> thank you for your valuable suggestion to the milestones. >> I think that before the WG can adopt any contribution on generic OAM we need to discuss the model, the paradigm of Generic OAM - scope, models, toolset. After there's agreement on what Generic OAM actually is, then, I agree, the WG may consider adopting YANG model. I think that work and discussion of the LIME Architecture may include discussion of Generic OAM. If Generic OAM is within the scope of LIME, then YANG DM of the G-OAM becomes part of LIME YANG DM work. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) >> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 1:35 PM >> To: Benoit Claise (bclaise) >> Cc: lime@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Lime] LIME charter: next step >> >> Thanks for uploading the new versions of the charter, including all the actual charter updates as well as the draft milestones we sent out and updated. >> >> I think that the milestones need some more work. In addition to correcting typo's and grammo's, soem details seem missing. >> >> Here's a proposal: >> >> Milestones: >> Feb 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on generic OAM YANG data model(s) May 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on the LIME Architecture Jun 2015 - WG Adoption of the Use-Cases document. Note this document might not be published as an RFC Aug 2015 - Adopt the WG draft on the Applicability of the generic model(s) Sep 2015 - Submit the YANG model(s) document to the IESG as a Proposed Standards RFC Nov 2015 - Submit the Architecture document to the IESG as an Informational RFC Apr 2016 - Submit the Applicability document to the IESG as an Informational RFC Apr 2016 - Recharter or conclude >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Carlos. >> >> On Sep 26, 2014, at 5:31 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Thanks to all who contributed to this proposed charter so far. >>> I believe that this charter is now stable enough, and has enough community support. >>> At this point in time, we want to get feedback from the IESG. >>> Therefore this charter is on the IESG telechat next Thursday. >>> >>> Regards, Benoit >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lime mailing list >>> Lime@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime >> _______________________________________________ >> Lime mailing list >> Lime@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > . >