From nobody Tue May 5 15:07:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0413A0BE9 for ; Tue, 5 May 2020 15:07:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6VYUgY6b3oE for ; Tue, 5 May 2020 15:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 923B83A0BE5 for ; Tue, 5 May 2020 15:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49Gv3C011FzyXf; Wed, 6 May 2020 00:07:18 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <04EBF640-8E6C-41EB-A704-ECCE6FC0BA48@tzi.org> Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 00:07:18 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 610409238.268936-956f2f298fa2e08f86b5f15a75193b56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5A6CF9A4-FCBB-435B-8EEF-9704F5BFD221@tzi.org> References: <04EBF640-8E6C-41EB-A704-ECCE6FC0BA48@tzi.org> To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Other WGs/RGs (Re: LOOPS meetings in May 2020, replacing IETF 107 side meetings) X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 22:07:24 -0000 On 2020-04-30, at 21:37, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > (2) to look at about a dozen other WGs and RGs and agree what our = technical relationship with them is going to be, e.g. "watch" (shared = interests, but no specific exchange or mutual dependency envisioned now; = could develop, though), "import" (specs that the other WG works on will = be used by ours), and "export" (we could do some work that would benefit = that other WG). This will then be useful as input for a charter = discussion. I prepared a more detailed overview over related WGs and RGs at: https://github.com/loops-wg/charter/blob/master/wg-rg-relations.md This would be one of the agenda items of the LOOPS =E2=80=9Cdesign team = meeting=E2=80=9D in 41 hours, with a view of feeding back some (but not = all) of the details into the charter. Please send comments to me or to the list (or make a pull request if = that is your thing). I=E2=80=99m also copying the current text below in case commenting from = the mail reader is easier for you. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten ## Relationship to Other WGs and RGs This is an expanded version of the section of a similar name in the proposed charter. We'll develop this here and then make the needed changes to the charter. The objective here is to look at about a dozen other WGs and IRTF RGs and agree what our technical relationship with them is going to be. Note that the current version of this note does not address interaction with other SDOs yet. * To do: find out whether there we envision such interaction with other SDOs. ## Types of relationship * "watch": shared interests, but no specific exchange or mutual = dependency envisioned now; could develop, though. * "import": specs that the other WG works on will be used by ours. * "export": we could do some work that would benefit that other WG. ## Working groups, Research Groups * Name: TCPM, TSVWG, QUIC * Work: Transport protocol innovations * Issue in other group: What new transport protocol mechanisms provide benefits that cannot be had with a classical transport * **Issue in LOOPS**: Develop the retransmission part of LOOPS (as well = as possibly the reconstruction/FEC part) based on these innovations * Type: Watch, potentially Import * **Issue in LOOPS**: Are there new interactions between the LOOPS "transport" elements and the innovations in the upper layer transport protocols? * Type: Watch --- * Name: TCPM * Work: RACK * Issue in other group: (from draft-ietf-tcpm-rack-08:) ... develop a new TCP loss detection algorithm called RACK ("Recent ACKnowledgment"). RACK uses the notion of time, instead of packet or sequence counts, to detect losses, for modern TCP implementations that can support per-packet timestamps and the selective acknowledgment (SACK) option. It is intended to be an alternative to the DUPACK threshold approach [RFC6675] ... * **Issue in LOOPS**: Does LOOPS need to rely on a sequence-preserving path for efficient loss detection, or can we use some of the RACK work for more time-based loss detection? How do we translate the TCP features used by RACK into features that are available in LOOPS? * Type: Watch, potentially Import --- * Name: MASQUE (WG to be, recent BOF 2020-03-24) * Work: Embedding proxied flows into QUIC and HTTP/3 * Issue in other group: "Congestion Control over Congestion Control in case of UDP or IP proxying", i.e., when the proxied flows are UDP or IP (~ VPN), the interaction between end-to-end transport protocol control loops (congestion control) and the control loops run by QUIC * **Issue in LOOPS**: Does LOOPS need to perform specific work to = mitigate issues stemming from nested congestion control? Note that the LOOPS segment is typically, but not always, significantly shorter than the end-to-end path, which might be similar in a MASQUE situation. * Type: Watch --- * Name: RMCAT * Work: Congestion control for media flows * **Issue in LOOPS**: Interactions between upper layer congestion = control schemes in use for media and those in use on the LOOPS path segment * Type: Watch --- * Name: IPPM, TSVWG * Work: Formats and algorithms for measurement * **Issue in LOOPS**: What IPPM-defined formats and algorithms for measurement can we usefully import into the LOOPS measurement system * Type: potentially Import * To do: What came out of the draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback work? --- * Name: NVO3, INTAREA, SPRING/6MAN * Work: Tunnel encapsulation formats * **Issue in LOOPS**: We need to follow the homes of tunneling protocols to which bindings are being defined, which depending on the choices of the WG may include NVO3 (Geneve), intarea (GUE), spring/6man (SRv6). * Type: Import * To do: There is no obvious home for GRE at this point, but GRE is another obvious choice for a tunneling protocol. --- * Name: TSVWG * Work: Advanced ECN * Issue in other group: Agree on an approach for advanced ECN * **Issue in LOOPS**: LOOPS can benefit from ECN both in the end-to-end traffic and in the LOOPS segment. The protocol may need to anticipate the developments on advanced ECN and adjust its usage of both classic and advanced ECN. This may also influence how LOOPS makes use of RFC 6040 (Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification). * Type: Watch --- * Name: DETNET, RAW * Work: DETNET data plane, RAW, PREOF * Issue in other group: Define a data plane (encapsulation) for replicating, eliminating duplicates, and potentially reordering traffic (PREOF). RAW extends this work to wireless networks. * **Issue in LOOPS**: Can we integrate some of this work for retransmission and reconstruction? * Type: Watch, potentially import * **Issue in LOOPS**: Potentially (long term): Can we make some of the LOOPS components available in a way that is useful for DETNET and RAW? * Type: Export --- * Name: NWCRG (IRTF) * Work: FEC formats and protocols * Issue in other group: Define forward error correction (FEC) formats that provide good robustness, low reconstruction latency, low implementation complexity, low CPU requirements, low overhead * **Issue in LOOPS**: How does the structure of these new formats and protocols influence the way LOOPS handles reconstruction? * To do: Watch the patent claim thickets in this space * Type: Watch, Import/Reference (specific schemes) --- * Name: MAPRG (IRTF), ICCRG (IRTF) * Work: Measurement, Congestion control * Issue in other group: Do leading edge work in this space * **Issue in LOOPS**: Benefit from that leading edge work * Type: Watch From nobody Wed May 6 02:15:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFCC3A053E for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 02:15:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iF92folF98mq for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 02:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD3D23A0538 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 02:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml729-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 8E95AAC094E633F99F4A for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 10:15:27 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) by lhreml729-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.80) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 6 May 2020 10:15:26 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 6 May 2020 17:15:24 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 6 May 2020 17:15:24 +0800 From: Liyizhou To: Carsten Bormann , "loops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [LOOPS] Other WGs/RGs (Re: LOOPS meetings in May 2020, replacing IETF 107 side meetings) Thread-Index: AQHWIymZ398IgfEpv0yNKnH5CNg2laiaYH1A Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 09:15:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <04EBF640-8E6C-41EB-A704-ECCE6FC0BA48@tzi.org> <5A6CF9A4-FCBB-435B-8EEF-9704F5BFD221@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <5A6CF9A4-FCBB-435B-8EEF-9704F5BFD221@tzi.org> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.12.121] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] Other WGs/RGs (Re: LOOPS meetings in May 2020, replacing IETF 107 side meetings) X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 09:15:32 -0000 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IHRoYXQgbGVhZGluZyBlZGdlIHdvcmsNCiogVHlwZTogV2F0Y2gNCg0KDQotLQ0KTE9PUFMgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQpMT09QU0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9sb29wcw0K From nobody Wed May 6 14:44:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB293A07A5 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FduU-EKH5D4T for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 14:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C1603A07A3 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 14:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49HVVg2xnbzyhY; Wed, 6 May 2020 23:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 23:44:42 +0200 Cc: "loops@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 610494282.765546-44bcbb1a4ebf8a25256571bf861ee392 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <04EBF640-8E6C-41EB-A704-ECCE6FC0BA48@tzi.org> <5A6CF9A4-FCBB-435B-8EEF-9704F5BFD221@tzi.org> To: Liyizhou X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] Other WGs/RGs (Re: LOOPS meetings in May 2020, replacing IETF 107 side meetings) X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 21:44:49 -0000 Hi Yizhou, Thank you for the quick response. Let me pick up some of the items below for tomorrow=E2=80=99s call, = giving them numbers 1 to 6 so we can build a more detailed agenda around = them: > On 2020-05-06, at 11:15, Liyizhou wrote: >=20 > Hi Carsten, >=20 > That is a pretty complete list. Thanks for putting them together. >=20 > Please see inlines with [yz]. >=20 > Yizhou >=20 > * Name: TCPM > * Work: RACK > * Issue in other group: (from draft-ietf-tcpm-rack-08:) ... develop a > new TCP loss detection algorithm called RACK ("Recent > ACKnowledgment"). RACK uses the notion of time, instead of packet > or sequence counts, to detect losses, for modern TCP > implementations that can support per-packet timestamps and the > selective acknowledgment (SACK) option. It is intended to be an > alternative to the DUPACK threshold approach [RFC6675] ... > * **Issue in LOOPS**: Does LOOPS need to rely on a sequence-preserving > path for efficient loss detection, or can we use some of the RACK > work for more time-based loss detection? How do we translate the > TCP features used by RACK into features that are available in LOOPS? > * Type: Watch, potentially Import >=20 > [yz]=20 > Sequence number based loss detection is easier for LOOPS segment. = LOOPS ingress does not rely on ACK clocking, so egress may generate less = ACKs if everything is ok. Time-based loss detection would require more = precise RTT monitoring which need quite frequent ACKs. So time-based = loss detection may put a requirement on frequency/number of ACK = generations.=20 >=20 > When a LOOPS segment has a severe packet re-ordering which confuses = with packet loss, time-based loss detection is good to be employed. >=20 > There is another issue to be considered in LOOPS related to RACK. When = interacting with RACK based end host sender, LOOPS egress has loose = requirement to maintain the packet order when waiting for the lost = packet to be recovered over the LOOPS segment. >=20 > [/yz] I think that is a great summary of a few of the technical points we = should discuss tomorrow: (1) Should we simply assume that reordering in the LOOPS segment is = unlikely, so we only have to specify the DUPACK style of loss detection = within LOOPS? (2) What can we find out about the end-to-end transports contributing to = a LOOPS-enhanced flow (e.g., are they RACK=E2=80=94based?), so we can = adapt behavior appropriately? (This assumes some minority traffic might = be negatively impacted. It also violates the =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t = peek=E2=80=9D principle.) > --- >=20 > * Name: MASQUE (WG to be, recent BOF 2020-03-24) > * Work: Embedding proxied flows into QUIC and HTTP/3 > * Issue in other group: "Congestion Control over Congestion Control in > case of UDP or IP proxying", i.e., when the proxied flows are UDP or > IP (~ VPN), the interaction between end-to-end transport protocol > control loops (congestion control) and the control loops run by QUIC > * **Issue in LOOPS**: Does LOOPS need to perform specific work to = mitigate > issues stemming from nested congestion control? Note that the LOOPS > segment is typically, but not always, significantly shorter than the > end-to-end path, which might be similar in a MASQUE situation. > * Type: Watch >=20 > [yz] > Currently LOOPS ingress from my understanding does not intend to do = sending rate adjustment. The control is at the end host sender. LOOPS = tries to do the minimum set of work in participating in the congestion = control, i.e. via CE-marking. (3) Yes, and I think it is worth to explicitly confirm that this is the = way we are going. > If a full-function nested control loop (including sending rate = adjustment at LOOPS ingress) in LOOPS is required, some active = interaction between the end host and the LOOPS ingress node would be = required. I do not think this is for the initial stage of LOOPS. We'd = better start from the simple approach. Right. MASQUE has the benefit that, in the forward direction, the end = host is part of the inner segment that is happening within QUIC. But we = don=E2=80=99t know how they will use that benefit, and what they will do = for the reverse direction (which will often be the direction with the = larger amount of traffic). So that is why this just says =E2=80=9Cwatch=E2= =80=9D. > I did not follow MASQUE very closely, but it seems working between the = sender and the proxy. Potentially would give us some hints on advanced = features to be considered at LOOPS later stage. =20 > [/yz] Agree. > --- >=20 > * Name: IPPM, TSVWG > * Work: Formats and algorithms for measurement > * **Issue in LOOPS**: What IPPM-defined formats and algorithms for > measurement can we usefully import into the LOOPS measurement system > * Type: potentially Import > * To do: What came out of the > draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback work? > [yz] > IPPM-defined ioam format intends to help network oam. It puts a lot = of effort in its trace option (pre-allocated trace and incremental = trace). It is quite obvious that trace option is not appropriate for = LOOPS since LOOPS would work on tunnel endpoints. No intermediate = node=E2=80=99s information is required. If ioam edge-to-edge mode is to = be used, then ioam edges have to happen to be LOOPS segment ingress and = egress.=20 (4) That is my evaluation as well. We should check whether there is = agreement on this. > So I would not think ioam can be directly used for LOOPS segment. The = most important information for LOOPS is timestamps in my understanding. = We may re-use its format but put it in LOOPS header. That makes the = design clearer. =20 > [/yz] (5) Timestamp formats are one thing we can copy from IPPM, where we need = to have timestamps where ingress and egress agree about the format. = There is also the question whether we want to use data formats defined = for IPFIX, and/or measurement protocols such as OWAMP, TWAMP. > --- >=20 > * Name: NVO3, INTAREA, SPRING/6MAN > * Work: Tunnel encapsulation formats > * **Issue in LOOPS**: We need to follow the homes of tunneling = protocols > to which bindings are being defined, which depending on the choices > of the WG may include NVO3 (Geneve), intarea (GUE), spring/6man > (SRv6). > * Type: Import > * To do: There is no obvious home for GRE at this point, but GRE is > another obvious choice for a tunneling protocol. >=20 > [yz] > Agreed that GRE is a choice here. > [/yz] (6) We may want to write up a straw man (and then need to find someone = familiar with GRE and its real-world incarnation). > --- >=20 > * Name: DETNET, RAW > * Work: DETNET data plane, RAW, PREOF > * Issue in other group: Define a data plane (encapsulation) for > replicating, eliminating duplicates, and potentially reordering > traffic (PREOF). > RAW extends this work to wireless networks. > * **Issue in LOOPS**: Can we integrate some of this work for > retransmission and reconstruction? > * Type: Watch, potentially import > * **Issue in LOOPS**: Potentially (long term): Can we make some of the > LOOPS components available in a way that is useful for DETNET and = RAW? > * Type: Export > [yz] > DETNET looks having an assumption that an end-to-end retransmission in = case of a packet loss would make the packet miss its cycle and become = useless in industrial networking. > A (shorter) segment based retransmission or FEC might be able to make = the recovered packet keep up with the cycle?=20 > That's an interesting thought :) > [/yz-end] This is a bit hard to frame into a discussion point right now, but we = should be talking to DETNET and RAW people about reconstruction (FEC) = and retransmission. The latter is maybe a bit less =E2=80=9Cdeterministic= =E2=80=9D, but might still make the latency goal. I don=E2=80=99t think = we know enough to go into a technical discussion of this tomorrow. See you all in 17=C2=BC hours=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed May 6 15:49:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB9F3A0DA6 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 15:49:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eSSma6HW6cmU for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 15:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80A193A0DA3 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 15:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49HWxl4MNFz10H6; Thu, 7 May 2020 00:49:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B42EB4D-5E3A-4567-A276-C611F8D6A8A9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 X-Mail-Calendar-Part: Yes Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 00:49:47 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 610498187.175258-d20de651a0a92808441d40dfc99e0b15 Message-Id: <4873DEF6-B220-47DE-A2B5-F3665FB85E66@tzi.org> References: <1648883060.8784791588805068227.JavaMail.nobody@gram3rmd002.webex.com> To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Fwd: (Forward to others) Webex meeting invitation: LOOPS design team meeting X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 22:49:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4B42EB4D-5E3A-4567-A276-C611F8D6A8A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here are the WebEx/dialin details for the Loops =E2=80=9Cdesign team" = meeting in 16 hours. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > Carsten Bormann invites you to join this Webex meeting. > =20 > Meeting number (access code): 142 202 521 > Meeting password: recovery (73268379 from phones and video systems) > =20 > Thursday, May 7, 2020 > 3:00 pm | (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik | 2 hrs > =20 > Join meeting = > =20 > Join by phone > Tap to call in from a mobile device (attendees only) > +44-20-7660-8149 = United Kingdom = Toll > Global call-in numbers = > =20 > Join from a video system or application > Dial 142202521@meetingsemea5.webex.com = > You can also dial 62.109.219.4 and enter your meeting number. > =20 > Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business > Dial 142202521.meetingsemea5@lync.webex.com = > =20 > Need help? Go to http://help.webex.com > =20 --Apple-Mail=_4B42EB4D-5E3A-4567-A276-C611F8D6A8A9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2350BA1E-723C-4AE2-82D7-C9FFAACA1275" --Apple-Mail=_2350BA1E-723C-4AE2-82D7-C9FFAACA1275 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Here = are the WebEx/dialin details for the Loops =E2=80=9Cdesign team" meeting = in 16 hours.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


Carsten Bormann invites you to join this = Webex meeting.
 
Meeting number (access code): 142 = 202 521
Meeting password: recovery (73268379 from = phones and video systems)
 
Thursday, May 7, 2020
3:00 pm  |  (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, = Reykjavik  |  2 hrs
 
Join = meeting
 
Join by phone
Tap to call in from a mobile device = (attendees only)
+44-20-7660-8149 United Kingdom = Toll
Global call-in numbers
 
Join from a video system = or application
Dial 142202521@meetingsemea5.webex.com
You can also dial 62.109.219.4 and enter = your meeting number.
 
Join using = Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business
Dial 142202521.meetingsemea5@lync.webex.com
 
Need help? Go to http://help.webex.com
 
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Global=20= call-in=20numbers =20


\n\n 
\n\nJoin=20from=20a=20video=20system=20or=20= application
Dial=20142202521@meetingsemea5.webex.com =20=
You=20can=20= also=20dial=2062.109.219.4=20and=20enter=20your=20meeting=20= number.=20 =20
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\n\nJoin=20using=20Microsoft=20Lync=20or=20= Microsoft=20Skype=20for=20BusinessDial=20142202521.meetingsemea5@lync.= webex.com\n\n=09=09=09\n=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20 \n=09= =09=09=09\n=09=09=09=09=09Need=20help?=20Go=20to=20http://help.webex.com\n=09=09=09=09=09\n=09= =09=09=09\n=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 \n=09=09=09\n=09=09= \n=09\n\n=0D=0ASUMMARY:LOOPS=20design=20team=20meeting=0D= =0APRIORITY:5=0D=0ACLASS:PUBLIC=0D=0ABEGIN:VALARM=0D=0ATRIGGER:-PT15M=0D=0A= ACTION:DISPLAY=0D=0ADESCRIPTION:Reminder=0D=0AEND:VALARM=0D=0AEND:VEVENT=0D= =0AEND:VCALENDAR=0D=0A= --Apple-Mail=_2350BA1E-723C-4AE2-82D7-C9FFAACA1275 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

--Apple-Mail=_2350BA1E-723C-4AE2-82D7-C9FFAACA1275-- --Apple-Mail=_4B42EB4D-5E3A-4567-A276-C611F8D6A8A9-- From nobody Wed May 6 19:33:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323B53A0061 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 19:33:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bfCDLjRKFe1l for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 19:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tsinghua.edu.cn (smtps23.tsinghua.edu.cn [59.66.3.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C82B3A00B2 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 19:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-VNS62U7 (unknown [123.54.35.187]) by app-2 (Coremail) with SMTP id EAQGZQBnHmZ0c7NeJZ3lAQ--.658S2; Thu, 07 May 2020 10:33:24 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 10:33:23 +0800 From: liu-zw16 To: =?utf-8?Q?loops=40ietf.org?= Message-ID: <2D8B26A4-48F9-4465-BF99-B23D30F08F7A@mails.tsinghua.edu.cn> X-Mailer: MailMasterPC/4.14.1.1004 (Windows 10 RS5) X-CUSTOM-MAIL-MASTER-SENT-ID: 3492ED21-399D-4A4B-9987-F3342E79582D MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-CM-TRANSID: EAQGZQBnHmZ0c7NeJZ3lAQ--.658S2 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1UD129KBjvJXoW7WrW3Ar48tF4fJw1rArW5KFg_yoW8Xry7pa y5WFn8tFZ7W34qvF4DXw10qry8Ca97W3yDKa1Sqr1DAa98XFn2qF93tFW2ga43X34xuF9F qa1qvayUCF1qvFJanT9S1TB71UUUUU7qnTZGkaVYY2UrUUUUjbIjqfuFe4nvWSU5nxnvy2 9KBjDU0xBIdaVrnRJUUUQvb7Iv0xC_tr1lb4IE77IF4wAFF20E14v26r1j6r4UM7CY07I2 0VC2zVCF04k26cxKx2IYs7xG6rWj6s0DM7CIcVAFz4kK6r1j6r18M28lY4IEw2IIxxk0rw 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2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 02:33:31 -0000 PGh0bWw+DQo8aGVhZD4NCiAgICA8bWV0YSBodHRwLWVxdWl2PSdDb250ZW50LVR5cGUnIGNvbnRl bnQ9J3RleHQvaHRtbDsgY2hhcnNldD1VVEYtOCc+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keT4NCjxzdHlsZT4N CiAgICBmb250ew0KICAgICAgICBsaW5lLWhlaWdodDogMS42Ow0KICAgIH0NCiAgICB1bCxvbHsN CiAgICAgICAgcGFkZGluZy1sZWZ0OiAyMHB4Ow0KICAgICAgICBsaXN0LXN0eWxlLXBvc2l0aW9u OiBpbnNpZGU7DQogICAgfQ0KPC9zdHlsZT4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGUgPSAnZm9udC1mYW1pbHk65b6u 6L2v6ZuF6buRLFZlcmRhbmEsJnF1b3Q7TWljcm9zb2Z0IFlhaGVpJnF1b3Q7LFNpbVN1bixzYW5z LXNlcmlmO2ZvbnQtc2l6ZToxNHB4OyBsaW5lLWhlaWdodDoxLjY7Jz4NCiAgICA8ZGl2ID48L2Rp dj4KPHN0eWxlPgogICAgZm9udHsKICAgICAgICBsaW5lLWhlaWdodDogMS42OwogICAgfQogICAg dWwsb2x7CiAgICAgICAgcGFkZGluZy1sZWZ0OiAyMHB4OwogICAgICAgIGxpc3Qtc3R5bGUtcG9z aXRpb246IGluc2lkZTsKICAgIH0KPC9zdHlsZT4KPGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk65b6u 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B334E3A095C for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 23:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KT5-ZUP5QH8c for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 23:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98BD33A09CD for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 23:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49HjyQ6HkSz107s; Thu, 7 May 2020 08:21:02 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2D8B26A4-48F9-4465-BF99-B23D30F08F7A@mails.tsinghua.edu.cn> Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:21:02 +0200 Cc: "loops@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 610525262.11549-d2a28035a2450dd4515ff42a30ad3631 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3E34BA0D-2ABE-4DC4-B1F1-D0A9A7BDF87A@tzi.org> References: <2D8B26A4-48F9-4465-BF99-B23D30F08F7A@mails.tsinghua.edu.cn> To: liu-zw16 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] Another use case of LOOPS X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 06:21:09 -0000 Hi Zhiwen, I agree that LOOPS can help reducing the time lost during recovery of = some packets that are needed to fill one block in a deadline-per-block = situation. As far as I can see, this benefit comes without placing any extra = requirements on LOOPS. Actually, in your DTP proposal, you aren=E2=80=99t telling the network = about packets that might benefit from some extra effort by the network, = so there is also no signal on which LOOPS could base doing something = extra specifically for DTP. Is this a correct description? We haven=E2=80=99t specifically discussed tail loss detection yet. One = assumption is that, in an aggregate flow, there is less likely to be a = tail (i.e., there are packets on other flows that will be pushing loss = detection). This is of course only true to a certain likelihood, so we = may still want to do some tail loss detection for those less likely gaps = in the aggregate. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2020-05-07, at 04:33, liu-zw16 = wrote: >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > LOOPS is designed to reduce end-to-end retransmission delay in = long-haul network by local recorvery, which is a very useful and = interesting topic. >=20 > As mentioned in draft-li-tsvwg-loops-problem-opportunities-04, local = in-network recovery is needed on condition of tail loss or loss in short = flows.=20 >=20 > I think even in long TCP flows (like transmission of one hour of = video), tail loss is an important issue and end-to-end retransmission = delay is intolerable. Many applications nowadays will generate and = process the data in block fashion. For example, video/audio encoder = produce the encoded streams as a series of blocks (I, B, P frame or = GOP). These blocks are delay sensitive and each block has a clear = deadline requirement. The meaningful deadline is the block completion = time, i.e., the time between the block is generated at the sender and = when the block is submitted to the application at the receiver. If the = block cannot arrive before the deadline, then the whole block may become = useless because it may be overwritten by newer blocks. Tail loss of any = block may cause this block to miss deadline and affect overall user = experience, especially in long-haul network. In that scenario, LOOPS is = very useful to avoid adding another RTT to the block completion time. >=20 > We talk about this scenario in detail in another draft: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shi-quic-dtp-01 >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > Zhiwen Liu=20 > Mobile:+86 15901082651 > Tsinghua University >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > LOOPS mailing list > LOOPS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops From nobody Thu May 7 00:16:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C643A0982 for ; Thu, 7 May 2020 00:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rkci4QyMk7Ox for ; Thu, 7 May 2020 00:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zg8tmty1ljiyny4xntqumjca.icoremail.net (zg8tmty1ljiyny4xntqumjca.icoremail.net [165.227.154.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 82C383A08D4 for ; Thu, 7 May 2020 00:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-VNS62U7 (unknown [123.54.35.187]) by app-3 (Coremail) with SMTP id EQQGZQBHqJWqtbNeVJfmAQ--.3695S2; Thu, 07 May 2020 15:15:54 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:15:54 +0800 From: liu-zw16 To: =?utf-8?Q?cabo=40tzi.org?= Cc: =?utf-8?Q?loops=40ietf.org?= Message-ID: <76FC4578-3109-4DE1-B45D-2B1C29230550@mails.tsinghua.edu.cn> In-Reply-To: <3E34BA0D-2ABE-4DC4-B1F1-D0A9A7BDF87A@tzi.org> References: <2D8B26A4-48F9-4465-BF99-B23D30F08F7A@mails.tsinghua.edu.cn> <3E34BA0D-2ABE-4DC4-B1F1-D0A9A7BDF87A@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MailMasterPC/4.14.1.1004 (Windows 10 RS5) 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dGYub3JnPGJyPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xvb3BzPGJy PjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+PCEtLfCfmIAtLT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0K PC9odG1sPg== From nobody Thu May 7 09:50:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041BD3A0B4A for ; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0FmMgKggZjPx for ; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out02.uio.no (mail-out02.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:8210::71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87E1F3A0CE7 for ; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx11.uio.no ([129.240.10.83]) by mail-out02.uio.no with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jWjj4-0003XY-7T for loops@ietf.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 18:50:22 +0200 Received: from ti0182q160-4479.bb.online.no ([84.202.168.179] helo=[192.168.1.4]) by mail-mx11.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user michawe (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jWjj3-0005EH-O9 for loops@ietf.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 18:50:22 +0200 From: Michael Welzl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:50:20 +0200 To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx11.uio.no: 84.202.168.179 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=84.202.168.179; envelope-from=michawe@ifi.uio.no; helo=[192.168.1.4]; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: DCEB2D6B6254B7A0BD16975BB13BA1A28CC65C29 Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Another relevant draft in TCPM: ECN++ X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 16:50:55 -0000 ECN++: Adding Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) to TCP Control = Packets draft-ietf-tcpm-generalized-ecn-05 =E2=80=A6 for TCP traffic, we probably must require ECN support to help = at all; this draft is about using ECN to give some loss protection to = the packets that need it the most (SYN, ..). Quite relevant for LOOPS, I = think. Cheers, Michael From nobody Wed May 13 09:02:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E644A3A0FF6 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Z-oRtTRtK-W for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 293A43A1001 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id u11so18613359iow.4 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:01:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=K89O73+hghX3Qo413IqqfArvsxSrTAOAgWMMW5PiSXk=; b=GTuB1lIEvvnvyuLgs43/iPX3uGlBU9LMkX7rfnWbA6dqtU4pDFdPn6b9Rw+g/qZ/i6 khGxvK6BXdhqaaYRKnpUwXcf/zaMsGuroecUloOnuJOFa5MydTBvEKLtlBSpehpvimh5 KxMsZsQMGRoGxTWJU+dswhqxRWTXbsJ5cV4K5s076CGTHVYl+Y5ehlDD/zO2mS4bo9Dd BprHyToDait86SUNPkScdLp4mqZuDKm9NGLnce2kgebEGxaR3Q/cF8MZm/9eNqgHBzaP 5JNKnaZlBRmEuNiye+kH00ovzORjtJ04pSD5MRrtgvjzG4PlQ3dKUS4qZWkVkSWSLfMV /gZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=K89O73+hghX3Qo413IqqfArvsxSrTAOAgWMMW5PiSXk=; b=i517Jwy1AtYiNwQDILTc0iYiJSlKLK9A1u3vj6WU+CjL6mSWgRKjDOa8vnpxOpOdfA n2IgxxvDGhCsIO+29rcijxSwCixPqUzH+mJLYE2fL5MzlZDBlXwaNRoeLzYP5GVIizz/ 1Vk44FtmBZnUhs10iI/6V9rhqW4zPCcpnGeKrkxSqVhH/scqMbY/fb6Z2ANZeLI6rn4s 2Ijx+8qMOgpGbi1AHDO81HBEzd4NA5QQqqxW4cnYRpQGroHQmnsMnE2RotDlZh7F7QH0 i80puuVUTJyXUWgyC5bUGBX7GwyGLWNLVKUGRRDoL8yhtMYsZJFXrSHkCsuG4e+TCaeD Bi5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ7iDr/ub69Yv+qfjZvVZVrRGp6DjHtO/w6FvEk0IWcyfbZ1B1K BX1cBlpHdlubCRGcwoJqV/VtR4pkxOEXq//ylt3eTbdy X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLNGm9d2lgNz91FuFhr5EcJIaHN6V4EbrPZBFzqnbE4otW0IXw2mxPonJsdfZm1FKj9vaqFQSuEU8T7t7trGNg= X-Received: by 2002:a02:5249:: with SMTP id d70mr205025jab.121.1589385714601; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:01:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:01:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: loops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee136005a589b21f" Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] LOOPS Comments X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:01:58 -0000 --000000000000ee136005a589b21f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" High-level comments about LOOPS: This work will be valuable in several use cases, in particular encrypted transports (or IPSec) running over links with RF losses. I think it would benefit from a more detailed consideration of what problem(s) you are trying to solve. A generalized solution will require lots of additional mitigation mechanisms, which would scale up the work significantly. The gen-info and problem-opportunities drafts mention a lot of these concerns, and imply several different mechanisms. For example: - Detecting congestion losses vs. RF losses: this is hard, but certain network architectures can eliminate the problem by, e.g. rate limiting at the ingress point. - ECT vs non-ECT traffic: a general solution will have to provide different mechanisms for both; if it is sufficient to initially support one or the other, that may be half as much algorithm to design. - Relatedly, initially requiring the entire LOOPS path to support ECN marking would reduce the problem space. - Varying transport behaviors: different flows will have different e2e latencies, reordering thresholds, and reactions to delay variation and delay spikes. These will be hard to detect! It may be unavoidable to do a lot of work here, but limiting the cases where LOOPS can be applied (e.g. the added delay is a small fraction of the LOOPS segment min delay, which IIUC would require FEC) would simplify as much as possible. Alternatively, if there is a means for endpoints to explicitly request the service, then one can assume that they have configured themselves correctly to leverage LOOPS. - Identifying one, or a handful, of tunneling protocols with a good deployment story before chartering will reduce the risk there is not a critical mass to do any of them. One possible minimal increment of work would be: FEC-based LOOPS with a Geneve encapsulation to be applied only to ECT-marked traffic over a segment with ECN-enabled routers and a rate limiter at ingress. I emphasize that the above is only example of a use case that is constrained enough to present a small group of problems to solve. I'd encourage the group to zoom in on a similarly constrained use case that meets demand in the real internet. A similarly constrained used case would allow you to put in the basic protocol elements and then recharter to tackle more difficult problems. Martin --000000000000ee136005a589b21f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
High-level comments about LOOPS:
=

This work will be valuable in several use cases, in par= ticular encrypted transports (or IPSec) running over links with RF losses. = I think it would benefit from a more detailed consideration of what problem= (s) you are trying to solve. A generalized solution will require lots of ad= ditional mitigation mechanisms, which would scale up the work significantly= .

The gen-info and problem-opportunities drafts me= ntion a lot of these concerns, and imply several different mechanisms.

For example:
- Detecting congestion losses v= s. RF losses: this is hard, but certain network architectures can eliminate= the problem by, e.g. rate limiting at the ingress point.
- ECT v= s non-ECT traffic: a general solution will have to provide different mechan= isms for both; if it is sufficient to initially support one or the other, t= hat may be half as much algorithm to design.
- Relatedly, initial= ly requiring the entire LOOPS path to support ECN marking would reduce the = problem space.
- Varying transport behaviors: different flows= will have different e2e latencies, reordering thresholds, and reactions to= delay variation and delay spikes. These will be hard to detect! It may be = unavoidable to do a lot of work here, but limiting the cases where LOOPS ca= n be applied (e.g. the added delay is a small fraction of the LOOPS segment= min delay, which IIUC would require FEC) would simplify as much as possibl= e. Alternatively, if there is a means for endpoints to explicitly request t= he service, then one can assume that they have configured themselves correc= tly to leverage LOOPS.
- Identifying one, or a handful, of tu= nneling protocols with a good deployment story before chartering will reduc= e the risk there is not a critical mass to do any of them.
One possible minimal increment of work would be: FEC-based LOO= PS with a Geneve encapsulation to be applied only to ECT-marked traffic ove= r a segment with ECN-enabled routers and a rate limiter at ingress.

I emphasize that the above is only example of a use case = that is constrained enough to present a small group of problems to solve. I= 'd encourage the group to zoom in on a similarly constrained use case t= hat meets demand in the real internet.

<= div>
A similarly constrained used case would allow you to put in = the basic protocol elements and then recharter to tackle more difficult pro= blems.

Martin
--000000000000ee136005a589b21f-- From nobody Wed May 13 14:21:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70F73A0934 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:20:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5p7jNMyZRy9t for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out01.uio.no (mail-out01.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B8673A0932 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx12.uio.no ([129.240.10.84]) by mail-out01.uio.no with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jYyo8-0005NR-M6; Wed, 13 May 2020 23:20:52 +0200 Received: from ti0182q160-4479.bb.online.no ([84.202.168.179] helo=[192.168.1.4]) by mail-mx12.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user michawe (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1jYyo7-0007at-N2; Wed, 13 May 2020 23:20:52 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:20:49 +0200 Cc: loops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6870BE6F-87A3-4C7B-9D3E-A7DF8B9074AA@ifi.uio.no> References: To: Martin Duke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx12.uio.no: 84.202.168.179 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=84.202.168.179; envelope-from=michawe@ifi.uio.no; helo=[192.168.1.4]; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: D30BB18DA72CA901C6DC44E51E8634F990A528B5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] LOOPS Comments X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 21:20:59 -0000 Hi, Thank you very much for your comments. FWIW, I very much agree with them - your ECT comment in particular: that = would make things a lot easier for LOOPS, and who knows, maybe it could = even help incentivize ECN deployment? Cheers, Michael > On May 13, 2020, at 6:01 PM, Martin Duke = wrote: >=20 > High-level comments about LOOPS: >=20 > This work will be valuable in several use cases, in particular = encrypted transports (or IPSec) running over links with RF losses. I = think it would benefit from a more detailed consideration of what = problem(s) you are trying to solve. A generalized solution will require = lots of additional mitigation mechanisms, which would scale up the work = significantly.. >=20 > The gen-info and problem-opportunities drafts mention a lot of these = concerns, and imply several different mechanisms. >=20 > For example: > - Detecting congestion losses vs. RF losses: this is hard, but certain = network architectures can eliminate the problem by, e.g. rate limiting = at the ingress point. > - ECT vs non-ECT traffic: a general solution will have to provide = different mechanisms for both; if it is sufficient to initially support = one or the other, that may be half as much algorithm to design. > - Relatedly, initially requiring the entire LOOPS path to support ECN = marking would reduce the problem space. > - Varying transport behaviors: different flows will have different e2e = latencies, reordering thresholds, and reactions to delay variation and = delay spikes. These will be hard to detect! It may be unavoidable to do = a lot of work here, but limiting the cases where LOOPS can be applied = (e.g. the added delay is a small fraction of the LOOPS segment min = delay, which IIUC would require FEC) would simplify as much as possible. = Alternatively, if there is a means for endpoints to explicitly request = the service, then one can assume that they have configured themselves = correctly to leverage LOOPS. > - Identifying one, or a handful, of tunneling protocols with a good = deployment story before chartering will reduce the risk there is not a = critical mass to do any of them. >=20 > One possible minimal increment of work would be: FEC-based LOOPS with = a Geneve encapsulation to be applied only to ECT-marked traffic over a = segment with ECN-enabled routers and a rate limiter at ingress. >=20 > I emphasize that the above is only example of a use case that is = constrained enough to present a small group of problems to solve. I'd = encourage the group to zoom in on a similarly constrained use case that = meets demand in the real internet. >=20 > A similarly constrained used case would allow you to put in the basic = protocol elements and then recharter to tackle more difficult problems. >=20 > Martin > --=20 > LOOPS mailing list > LOOPS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/loops From nobody Wed May 13 22:08:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F4F3A0B44 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 22:08:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id djQIT8Dg8jrW for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 22:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049E43A0B57 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 22:08:00 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.92:37567.513861867 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-219.142.69.77?logid-EBA7ED0023494B9E917E63AD4134538D (unknown [172.18.0.92]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 88DB128008E; Thu, 14 May 2020 13:07:54 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 71069678@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.92]) by App0021 with ESMTP id EBA7ED0023494B9E917E63AD4134538D for martin.h.duke@gmail.com; Thu May 14 13:07:56 2020 X-Transaction-ID: EBA7ED0023494B9E917E63AD4134538D X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangjl50@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.92 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:07:54 +0800 From: wangjl50 To: "Martin Duke" , loops References: X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.12.322[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2020051413075411969414@chinatelecom.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart387780054176_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] LOOPS Comments X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 05:08:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart387780054176_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 IEhpLA0KIA0KSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHdpdGggdGhlIHNwZWNpZmljIHRyYW5zcG9y dCBiZWhhdmlvci4NCiANCkxPT1BTIGVuYWJsZWQgaW4tbmV0d29yayByZWNvdmVyeSBpcyBtb3N0 IGxpa2VseSB0byBiZSBlbmFibGUgZm9yIGNlcnRhaW4gYXBwbGljYXRpb25zLCBub3QgYWxsIHRy YWZmaWMuIEFzIG9wZXJhdG9yLCB3ZSBjYW4gaWRlbnRpZnkgdGhlIHRyYWZmaWMgZnJvbSB0aG9z 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--Apple-Mail=_187EC775-DAB1-4925-8A79-2789AF4401B7-- --Apple-Mail=_3C72067E-E7B2-42D0-8D89-77909B0FCF2A-- From nobody Mon May 25 15:35:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D794D3A0AF1 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:35:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W_6mhRe_G-Ir for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2879F3A0AF3 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548dc699.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.198.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49WBkB6dTWzyrT; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:35:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 612138914.1969841-0e3c1a8276c3d671091b304120f1beb3 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 00:35:14 +0200 Message-Id: <44E6CA25-5D9F-47CF-8447-667E88E5493A@tzi.org> To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Narrowing the scope: (1) Encapsulation X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 22:35:22 -0000 In tomorrow=E2=80=99s LOOPS side meeting, we want to discuss whether we = can narrow the initial scope of the WG sufficiently that the resulting = charter looks more tractable (we can then recharter after delivering on = the initial scope). One source of complexity of the current charter is that we want to = embrace different encapsulation techniques. But maybe one is enough for = the beginning? Some objectives of this choice would be: =E2=80=93 encapsulation should have good consensus and be active in = products (at least by 2021) =E2=80=93 easy deployment (e.g., UDP-based) =E2=80=93 reasonable overhead (but it seems current schemes don=E2=80=99t = differ that much here) Geneve (draft-ietf-nvo3-geneve-16, approved 2020-04-28, now in RFC = editor queue), seems to fulfill these objectives. Runner-ups: =E2=80=93 SRv6: This is lower in the stack and might get stuck in the = IPv6 header wars =E2=80=93 GRE: Great established workhorse, but also a separate protocol = lower in the stack: Harder to deploy The decision would not be to give up encapsulation-agnosticity, but to = focus on one of them for now. Comments are welcome on the list and/or in the meeting in ~16.5 hours. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon May 25 15:56:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240E43A00B2 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UmDIjurQepcD for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A821A3A005D for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 15:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548dc699.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.198.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49WCC20DQTzyRp for ; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:56:46 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 612140205.463039-c681c5a6941d46972cfd8a9ca34288cd Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: <170A51E5-F7E8-4E9C-9853-5E3EFCDE4F44@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 00:56:45 +0200 To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Narrowing the scope: (2) End-to-end assumptions and ECN X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 22:56:51 -0000 In tomorrow=E2=80=99s LOOPS side meeting, we want to discuss whether we = can narrow the initial scope of the WG sufficiently that the resulting = charter looks more tractable (we can then recharter after delivering on = the initial scope). The recovery performed by the LOOPS segment removes (or changes) the = packet loss signal that is used for congestion control by the end-to-end = traffic. One proposal was to focus on end-to-end traffic that is ECN-enabled = (ECT(0) traffic). This would mean any congestion signal that LOOPS wants to provide could = be relayed as CE marks, instead of potentially having to drop packets = (which counteracts the objective of recovery) What we don=E2=80=99t have good numbers for yet is how much traffic = today is ECT(0) or could easily be made ECT(0) by removing some = obstacles, enabling the use cases of LOOPS. Comments are welcome on the list and/or in the meeting in ~16 hours. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon May 25 16:06:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CF33A0B32 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:06:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3K2aBoLJatuJ for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8F143A0B30 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548dc699.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.198.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49WCPc2RP6zySy for ; Tue, 26 May 2020 01:05:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 612140757.234617-b0defe99535618c789279d11a8294c09 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: <3981AD26-1828-4BC1-9F5D-77EF3344B83E@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 01:05:57 +0200 To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Narrowing the scope: (3) Underlay (segment) path assumptions and ECN X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 23:06:04 -0000 In tomorrow=E2=80=99s LOOPS side meeting, we want to discuss whether we = can narrow the initial scope of the WG sufficiently that the resulting = charter looks more tractable (we can then recharter after delivering on = the initial scope). LOOPS recovers packets that are lost on its path segment. That = counteracts the effect of packets dropped by that segment to slow down = traffic during congestion. Preferably, we would find ourselves be able = to assume that all packet losses are not congestion related. A fully = ECN-capable path with ECT(0) traffic on it would satisfy this = requirement to a large extent =E2=80=94 routers would signal congestion = by CE-marking. Should we assume segment paths built from routers that are fully ECN = enabled (i.e., indicate congestion by CE-marks)? (Note that ascertaining this would be under control of the operator of = the LOOPS pair, who might want to take decidedly non-bottleneck routers = out of the consideration to simplify their job.) We probably still need some circuit-breaker mechanism in case the path = does seriously degrade and needs to drop packets for congestion reasons. We also would want to limit the effect of wrong attribution of losses by = an operator-setup overall limit to the overhead added by LOOPS. Comments are welcome on the list and/or in the meeting in ~16 hours. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon May 25 16:15:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0A13A0B46 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:15:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zPmdtpWuOqwh for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25E153A0B42 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 16:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p548dc699.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.198.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49WCcv2GSvzySy for ; Tue, 26 May 2020 01:15:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 612141343.967724-d5a90e409a71d085ee49f9d59bbe9f7a Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 01:15:44 +0200 To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [LOOPS] Narrowing the scope: (4) Reconstruction (FEC) or retransmission X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 23:15:49 -0000 In tomorrow=E2=80=99s LOOPS side meeting, we want to discuss whether we = can narrow the initial scope of the WG sufficiently that the resulting = charter looks more tractable (we can then recharter after delivering on = the initial scope). LOOPS recovery has been discussed as a potential combination of = reconstruction (FEC) and retransmission mechanisms. To simplify the initial protocol, we could choose to do only one of = these. Reconstruction (FEC) is its own area of knowledge, but then we can tap = existing proposals in NWCRG and TSVWG =E2=80=94 we would coordinate = closely with both groups. Due to the CPU requirements, deployment of FEC might require specific = platforms, limiting the use cases that can be addressed. Retransmission is reasonably well understood (with recent advances such = as RACK still waiting for their global try-out). More than = reconstruction, retransmission leads to reordering visible to the = end-to-end protocols (or needs the LOOPS egress to do resequencing =E2=9E=94= latency!). Retransmission being well-understood, it does require taking on more = protocol design work ((N)ACK structure etc. =E2=80=94 still probably = coordinating with TSVWG on some of the details). Deployment requires a couple bandwidth-delay products (of the LOOPS = segment) of buffer space, but less CPU than for reconstruction. So can we limit ourselves to one of these for the initial charter? = Which one? Comments are welcome on the list and/or in the meeting in ~16 hours. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue May 26 00:22:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBDD3A0C52 for ; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:22:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Wh1OEzqHLW5 for ; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D94523A0C4D for ; Tue, 26 May 2020 00:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 49WQPz6pHpz2B7j; Tue, 26 May 2020 09:21:59 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1590477719; bh=qIDRrYQApYsfHAhik4eC1rn0J7h86QYVdVh+uwtGNfQ=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=AOC2ovruBVgO+W3Xz9fZ6qFtkNbHIDssuEd4mqTQFLHdD2fmYKRG7174v8x+N0Ex6 H5Fg0c3qx3PCstd64pUAXrupVjg82+WB114u3EDtoupo2coIklCanOh75vyp9BGAji zeMYRAbgF6bjwFDIF2wZWZmtZ2CQD6YhbQLTugFveWEF1VQ0PONFOtaG8Om3yPSlEy YSFWgdng0/J7n06MEQCmBnyIs/oOdQJh+RJ6wNybIPE42psAdfg8Bfssc2nbRFf6FP oKqHwba60o1hQCE+gre4gQVplOeoMLz7yQ1DBJEwhyxNWirQL+KVzgacTJWgYEGWH/ ThhfdoacQGVGw== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.26]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 49WQPz644DzDq7M; Tue, 26 May 2020 09:21:59 +0200 (CEST) From: To: Carsten Bormann , "loops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [LOOPS] Narrowing the scope: (1) Encapsulation Thread-Index: AQHWMuTLYh4N0l8hA0Wu7fCfaYBLD6i50kMw Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 07:21:59 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330314C4432@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <44E6CA25-5D9F-47CF-8447-667E88E5493A@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <44E6CA25-5D9F-47CF-8447-667E88E5493A@tzi.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] Narrowing the scope: (1) Encapsulation X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 07:22:05 -0000 SGkgQ2FydHNlbiwgYWxsLCANCg0KQW4gYXBwcm9hY2ggdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBhdm9pZCB1cyB0byBo YXZlIHRvIHNlbGVjdCBhbiBlbmNhcCBzY2hlbWUgKGJ1dCBzdGlsbCBiZSBhcHBsaWNhYmxlIHRv IGFueSBlbmNhcCBydW5uaW5nIG92ZXIgVURQKSBpcyB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIFVEUCBvcHRpb25zOiBo dHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10c3Z3Zy11ZHAtb3B0aW9ucy0w OC4gVW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSwgdGhhdCBzcGVjIGlzIG5vdCBwcm9ncmVzc2luZyBhcyBJIGV4cGVj dC4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZCANCg0KPiAtLS0tLU1lc3NhZ2UgZCdvcmlnaW5lLS0tLS0NCj4g RGXCoDogTE9PUFMgW21haWx0bzpsb29wcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBEZSBsYSBwYXJ0IGRl IENhcnN0ZW4NCj4gQm9ybWFubg0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6IG1hcmRpIDI2IG1haSAyMDIwIDAwOjM1 DQo+IMOAwqA6IGxvb3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IE9iamV0wqA6IFtMT09QU10gTmFycm93aW5nIHRo ZSBzY29wZTogKDEpIEVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24NCj4gDQo+IEluIHRvbW9ycm934oCZcyBMT09QUyBz aWRlIG1lZXRpbmcsIHdlIHdhbnQgdG8gZGlzY3VzcyB3aGV0aGVyIHdlIGNhbg0KPiBuYXJyb3cg dGhlIGluaXRpYWwgc2NvcGUgb2YgdGhlIFdHIHN1ZmZpY2llbnRseSB0aGF0IHRoZSByZXN1bHRp bmcNCj4gY2hhcnRlciBsb29rcyBtb3JlIHRyYWN0YWJsZSAod2UgY2FuIHRoZW4gcmVjaGFydGVy IGFmdGVyIGRlbGl2ZXJpbmcNCj4gb24gdGhlIGluaXRpYWwgc2NvcGUpLg0KPiANCj4gT25lIHNv dXJjZSBvZiBjb21wbGV4aXR5IG9mIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGNoYXJ0ZXIgaXMgdGhhdCB3ZSB3YW50 IHRvDQo+IGVtYnJhY2UgZGlmZmVyZW50IGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gdGVjaG5pcXVlcy4gIEJ1dCBt YXliZSBvbmUgaXMgZW5vdWdoDQo+IGZvciB0aGUgYmVnaW5uaW5nPw0KPiANCj4gU29tZSBvYmpl Y3RpdmVzIG9mIHRoaXMgY2hvaWNlIHdvdWxkIGJlOg0KPiDigJMgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBzaG91 bGQgaGF2ZSBnb29kIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBhbmQgYmUgYWN0aXZlIGluIHByb2R1Y3RzDQo+IChhdCBs ZWFzdCBieSAyMDIxKQ0KPiDigJMgZWFzeSBkZXBsb3ltZW50IChlLmcuLCBVRFAtYmFzZWQpDQo+ IOKAkyByZWFzb25hYmxlIG92ZXJoZWFkIChidXQgaXQgc2VlbXMgY3VycmVudCBzY2hlbWVzIGRv buKAmXQgZGlmZmVyIHRoYXQNCj4gbXVjaCBoZXJlKQ0KPiANCj4gR2VuZXZlIChkcmFmdC1pZXRm LW52bzMtZ2VuZXZlLTE2LCBhcHByb3ZlZCAyMDIwLTA0LTI4LCBub3cgaW4gUkZDDQo+IGVkaXRv ciBxdWV1ZSksIHNlZW1zIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgdGhlc2Ugb2JqZWN0aXZlcy4NCj4gDQo+IFJ1bm5l ci11cHM6DQo+IOKAkyBTUnY2OiBUaGlzIGlzIGxvd2VyIGluIHRoZSBzdGFjayBhbmQgbWlnaHQg Z2V0IHN0dWNrIGluIHRoZSBJUHY2DQo+IGhlYWRlciB3YXJzDQo+IOKAkyBHUkU6IEdyZWF0IGVz dGFibGlzaGVkIHdvcmtob3JzZSwgYnV0IGFsc28gYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSBwcm90b2NvbCBsb3dlcg0K PiBpbiB0aGUgc3RhY2s6ICBIYXJkZXIgdG8gZGVwbG95DQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgZGVjaXNpb24gd291 bGQgbm90IGJlIHRvIGdpdmUgdXAgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbi1hZ25vc3RpY2l0eSwgYnV0IHRvDQo+ IGZvY3VzIG9uIG9uZSBvZiB0aGVtIGZvciBub3cuDQo+IA0KPiBDb21tZW50cyBhcmUgd2VsY29t ZSBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdCBhbmQvb3IgaW4gdGhlIG1lZXRpbmcgaW4gfjE2LjUgaG91cnMuDQo+IA0K PiBHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuDQo+IA0KPiAtLQ0KPiBMT09QUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTE9P UFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sb29w cw0K From nobody Tue May 26 07:39:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: loops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4CA3A1019 for ; 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Tue, 26 May 2020 16:37:30 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:37:29 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 612196649.482327-0c9c5e377b301848f19be2b8a22a38b5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6967F8C0-6A4E-4C6B-AA49-B2652DB616A3@tzi.org> References: <614826114.20890951590412654399.JavaMail.nobody@rln2rmd101.webex.com> To: loops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [LOOPS] Webex meeting information: LOOPS side meeting May 2020 X-BeenThere: loops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Local Optimizations on Path Segments List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 14:37:47 -0000 ~ 20 minutes to the meeting. Webex: = https://meetingsemea5.webex.com/meetingsemea5/j.php?MTID=3Dmf8df424f4a3d70= a257c05e13e87ebe83 Repo: https://github.com/loops-wg/ietf107 Notes: https://hackmd.io/HuWZVXcATxyRA0vWaK7Cwg After a little bit of resynchronization, we plan to take up the = discussion about =E2=80=9Cnarrowing the charter=E2=80=9D that resulted = from the design team meeting on 2020-05-07. Please see my last four = messages to this mailing list: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/loops/ The plan is to have, for each of the four questions, rough agreement on = an answer by the end of the meeting. We have two hours allocated for this meeting; for our friends joining in = the middle of the night (as well as everyone else) I hope that we = won=E2=80=99t need all that time. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten