
From nobody Mon Jul  1 09:00:13 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol
        Authors         : Derek Yeung
                          Yingzhen Qu
                          Jeffrey Zhang
                          Ing-Wher Chen
                          Acee Lindem
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt
	Pages           : 126
	Date            : 2019-07-01

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure
   and manage OSPF.  The model is based on YANG 1.1 as defined in RFC
   7950 and conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture
   (NDMA) as described in RFC 8342.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Jul  1 13:06:23 2019
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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:07:42 -0400
From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 03:11:21PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> I am firmly on the side of Acee on this one – and I think more attention needs to be paid to his initial answer: “B-F-D”.
> 
> The implications of this are that we do not expect control plane to have finer granularity than seconds – which is why routing protocol hold times are expressed in seconds (both adjacency hold times and LSA hold times).
> Which means that even if you had the ability to display “X.mmm seconds remaining” this would not mean that the actual reaction to the timeout would occur within milliseconds of the timer expiration.
> 
> I would also argue that operationally it does not matter if an adjacency times out in N seconds or N.5 seconds. This is not used as a fast failure detection mechanism.

I agree for a slightly different reason:
In general, if your protocol is concerned with second level granularity,
that's what should be presented at the management level.  

Not to mention let's not make all sorts of implementations have to go put in
a float to track what's probably been storing an integer for years.

-- Jeff


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>,  "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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On July 1, 2019 at 6:58:43 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) (acee@cisco.com) wrote:

I believe version -23 addresses your comments.


It does!

I=E2=80=99m starting the IETF LC.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><font=
 face=3D"Helvetica">On July 1, 2019 at 6:58:43 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) (<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com</a>) wrote:</font></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div> <blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"><font face=3D"Hel=
vetica">I believe version -23 addresses your comments.</font></span></div><=
/span></blockquote> <div class=3D"gmail_signature"></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica">It does!</font></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica">I=E2=80=99m starting the IETF LC.</font=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks!</font>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Alvaro.</font><=
/div></body></html>

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From nobody Tue Jul  2 09:55:39 2019
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CC: stephane.litkowski@orange.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
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Subject: [Lsr] Last Call: <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> (YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Link State Routing WG (lsr) to
consider the following document: - 'YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol'
  <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-07-17. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure
   and manage OSPF.  The model is based on YANG 1.1 as defined in RFC
   7950 and conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture
   (NDMA) as described in RFC 8342.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-yang/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-yang/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.


The document contains these normative downward references.
See RFC 3967 for additional information: 
    rfc4973: OSPF-xTE: Experimental Extension to OSPF for Traffic Engineering (Experimental - Independent Submission Editor stream)
    rfc1765: OSPF Database Overflow (Experimental - IETF stream)




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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] AD Review for draft-ietf-ospf-yang-21
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Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:13:44 +0000
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From nobody Thu Jul  4 00:50:37 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : IS-IS Extension to Support Segment Routing over IPv6 Dataplane
        Authors         : Peter Psenak
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Ahmed Bashandy
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Zhibo Hu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-01.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2019-07-04

Abstract:
   Segment Routing (SR) allows for a flexible definition of end-to-end
   paths by encoding paths as sequences of topological sub-paths, called
   "segments".  Segment routing architecture can be implemented over an
   MPLS data plane as well as an IPv6 data plane.  This draft describes
   the IS-IS extensions required to support Segment Routing over an IPv6
   data plane.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions/

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A diff from the previous version is available at:
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From nobody Thu Jul  4 01:43:50 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : IGP Flexible Algorithm
        Authors         : Peter Psenak
                          Shraddha Hegde
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Ketan Talaulikar
                          Arkadiy Gulko
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-03.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2019-07-04

Abstract:
   IGP protocols traditionally compute best paths over the network based
   on the IGP metric assigned to the links.  Many network deployments
   use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic Engineering to
   enforce traffic over a path that is computed using different metrics
   or constraints than the shortest IGP path.  This document proposes a
   solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute constraint based
   paths over the network.  This document also specifies a way of using
   Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators to steer packets
   along the constraint-based paths.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-03

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-03


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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : IS-IS Extension to Support Segment Routing over IPv6 Dataplane
        Authors         : Peter Psenak
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Ahmed Bashandy
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Zhibo Hu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2019-07-04

Abstract:
   Segment Routing (SR) allows for a flexible definition of end-to-end
   paths by encoding paths as sequences of topological sub-paths, called
   "segments".  Segment routing architecture can be implemented over an
   MPLS data plane as well as an IPv6 data plane.  This draft describes
   the IS-IS extensions required to support Segment Routing over an IPv6
   data plane.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>,  "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Last Call: <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> (YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol) to Proposed Standard
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Last Call: <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> (YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol) to Proposed Standard
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I think that this could do with a few tweaks.

RFC 7884 is in the YANG module but not in the I-D references nor in the
body of the I-D.

The names of the TLV are not quite the same as in IANA and since new TLV
are not regarded as updates to RFC7770, then precision is called for in
order to find them with confidence via IANA

I cannot find router-address-tlv in IANA nor is there a YANG reference
clause and since there was some confusion over router-id in 2018, this
is one I want to check against its RFC, whatever that is.

The RPC can disrupt routing; elsewhere I have seen such actions limited
by a default
nacm:deny all
so users have to be positively configured to invoke the RPC.

I am unclear about rpc clear-neighbor.  Yes, it clears the adjacency but
what then?  Is it held down, allowed to come back up or what?

rpc or action?  I have yet to work out the pros and cons of each but was
rather expecting action as opposed to rpc for these.

leaf cost {type uint16
mostly have a range, but some do not; should they?

 typedef ospf-metric { type uint32 {  range "0 .. 16777215";
but
 leaf cost { type ospf-metric {  range "0..16777214";
looks odd; if intended, I suggest adding a note of explanation

some leaf metric are type ospf-metric others are type uint16; again
looks odd (but may be intended)

references to bfd-yang are not consistent
 RFC YYYY - YANG Data Model for Bidirectional
         Forwarding Detection (BFD).
 draft-ietf-bfd-yang-xx.txt:
     YANG Data Model for Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD)";
I think the former clearer

I notice that many of the YANG enumeration have numeric values, others
do not, which makes me curious; not wrong but since YANG does not put
them on the wire, I think that having no numeric value is commoner

With priority
e.g.  list unreserved-bandwidth {
     leaf priority {
which is high and which is low?

Likewise with boolean e.g.
           leaf best { type boolean; description
               "Indicates if the alternate is the preferred.";
does true mean the alternate is preferred?

This I-D is big - 125pp - and I will not finish reviewing it by July
17th but expect to do so some time later in the month - I will post
again when I have.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "The IESG" <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: "IETF-Announce" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <lsr@ietf.org>; "Stephane Litkowski"
<stephane.litkowski@orange.com>; <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>;
<lsr-chairs@ietf.org>; <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2019 5:55 PM
Subject: [Lsr] Last Call: <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> (YANG Data Model
for OSPF Protocol) to Proposed Standard


>
> The IESG has received a request from the Link State Routing WG (lsr)
to
> consider the following document: - 'YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol'
>   <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> as Proposed Standard
>
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final
> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-07-17. Exceptionally, comments may
be
> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of
> the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
> Abstract
>
>
>    This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to
configure
>    and manage OSPF.  The model is based on YANG 1.1 as defined in RFC
>    7950 and conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture
>    (NDMA) as described in RFC 8342.
>
>
>
>
> The file can be obtained via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-yang/
>
> IESG discussion can be tracked via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-yang/ballot/
>
>
> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>
>
> The document contains these normative downward references.
> See RFC 3967 for additional information:
>     rfc4973: OSPF-xTE: Experimental Extension to OSPF for Traffic
Engineering (Experimental - Independent Submission Editor stream)
>     rfc1765: OSPF Database Overflow (Experimental - IETF stream)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>


From nobody Sun Jul  7 11:16:23 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for OSPF SR (Segment Routing) Protocol
        Authors         : Derek Yeung
                          Yingzhen Qu
                          Jeffrey Zhang
                          Ing-Wher Chen
                          Acee Lindem
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-08.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2019-07-07

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure
   and manage OSPF Segment Routing.  The model is based on YANG 1.1 as
   defined in RFC 7950 and conforms to the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture (NDMA) as described in RFC 8342.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Sun Jul  7 11:20:34 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for IS-IS Segment Routing
        Authors         : Stephane Litkowski
                          Yinghzen Qu
                          Pushpasis Sarkar
                          Ing-Wher Chen
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-06.txt
	Pages           : 24
	Date            : 2019-07-07

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure
   and manage IS-IS Segment Routing.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From nobody Mon Jul  8 12:31:42 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Host Router Support for OSPFv2
        Authors         : Keyur Patel
                          Padma Pillay-Esnault
                          Manish Bhardwaj
                          Serpil Bayraktar
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv2-hbit-08.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   The OSPFv2 specifies an SPF algorithm that identifies transit
   vertices based on their adjacencies.  Therefore, OSPFv2 does not have
   a mechanism to prevent traffic transiting a participating node if it
   is a transit vertex in the only existing or shortest path to the
   destination.  The use of metrics to make the node undesirable can
   only help to repel traffic if an alternative better route exists.
   This document defines the Host-bit functionality to prevent other
   OSPFv2 routers from using the router for transit traffic in OSPFv2
   routing domains.  This document updates the Open Shortest Path First
   v2 specification (OSPFv2 rfc2328) by assigning a new bit (Host-bit)
   in the OSPF Router-LSA bit registry.  In addition, if the Host-bit is
   set, the calculation of the shortest-path tree for an area, as
   described in OSPFv2, is modified by including a new check to verify
   that transit vertices have the Host-bit clear.  In addition, this
   document updates OSPF Stub Router Advertisement (rfc6987) to
   advertise for type-2 External and NSSA LSAs with a high cost in order
   to repel traffic effectively.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv2-hbit/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv2-hbit-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv2-hbit-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv2-hbit-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Tue Jul  9 09:50:40 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] Rtgdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-06
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Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
Review result: Ready

 Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs.
For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by
updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-06.txt
Reviewer: Ben Niven-Jenkins
Review Date: 9th July 2019
IETF LC End Date: 11th July 2019
Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary: No issues found. This document is ready for publication.

Comments: The document is readable and succinctly addresses the use case
outlined.

Major issues: No major issues found.

Minor issues: No minor issues found.

Regards
Ben


From nobody Thu Jul 11 13:46:07 2019
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From: Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:46:06 -0700
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Subject: [Lsr] Tentative Agenda is posted
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Hi,



You can find the first version of the agenda at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-lsr

If you requested a slot that isn't there, please contact us.

 See you all in Montreal!



Thanks,

Chris, Acee & Yingzhen

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Times New=
 Roman" size=3D"3">

</font><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Cali=
bri" size=3D"3">Hi,</font></p><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Times New Rom=
an" size=3D"3">

</font><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Cali=
bri" size=3D"3">=C2=A0</font></p><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D"3">

</font><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face=3D"Calibri"><font color=
=3D"#000000" size=3D"3">You can find the first version of the agenda at:<br=
></font><font color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3">
</font></font><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"3"><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-lsr">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-lsr</a></font><br=
><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"3">
<br>
If you requested a slot that isn&#39;t there, please contact us.=C2=A0<br>
<br>
=C2=A0See you all in Montreal!</font></p><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Ti=
mes New Roman" size=3D"3">

</font><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Cali=
bri" size=3D"3">=C2=A0</font></p><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D"3">

</font><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Cali=
bri" size=3D"3">Thanks,</font></p><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font col=
or=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"3">Chris, Acee &amp; Yingzhen</font=
></p><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">

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From nobody Mon Jul 15 02:50:45 2019
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From: Stefan Santesson via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Cc: draft-ietf-ospf-yang.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org
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Subject: [Lsr] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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Reviewer: Stefan Santesson
Review result: Has Nits

This document seems to have a reasonable security considerations section.

As a nit, I notice that the abbreviation OSPF is not written out or explained
at all in this document. One should hope that most people that find their way
to this document are familiar with OSPF, but I still believe that is is
appropriate for all IETF RFC to write out and briefly explain/reference
abbreviations.

In summary this document seems well written



From nobody Mon Jul 15 04:12:12 2019
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Stefan Santesson <stefan@aaa-sec.com>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-ospf-yang.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 11:11:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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From nobody Mon Jul 15 04:27:38 2019
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Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 13:27:27 +0200
From: Stefan Santesson <stefan@aaa-sec.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-ospf-yang.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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Thanks for clarifying that. I just noticed that V2 of OSPF had its abbrevia=
tion written out,  but not V3

I stand corrected then :)

Stefan Santesson=20

=EF=BB=BFOn 2019-07-15, 13:12, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Stefan,=20
   =20
    =EF=BB=BFOn 7/15/19, 5:51 AM, "Stefan Santesson via Datatracker" <noreply@iet=
f.org> wrote:
   =20
        Reviewer: Stefan Santesson
        Review result: Has Nits
       =20
        This document seems to have a reasonable security considerations se=
ction.
       =20
        As a nit, I notice that the abbreviation OSPF is not written out or=
 explained
        at all in this document. One should hope that most people that find=
 their way
        to this document are familiar with OSPF, but I still believe that i=
s is
        appropriate for all IETF RFC to write out and briefly explain/refer=
ence
        abbreviations.
   =20
     Note that OSPF is in the list of abbreviations that don't require expa=
nsion - https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt
   =20
    In fact, OSPF had its own WG for more than 20 years __ We only combined=
 OSPF and IS-IS into LSR less than 2 years back.=20
   =20
    Thanks,
    Acee
       =20
        In summary this document seems well written
       =20
       =20
       =20
   =20
   =20



From nobody Wed Jul 17 16:07:55 2019
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From: Erik Kline via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Lsr] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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Reviewer: Erik Kline
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-ospf-yang-??
Reviewer: Erik Kline
Review Date: 2019-07-17
IETF LC End Date: 2019-07-17
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary:

Major issues:

Minor issues:

I feel like the "version" text in 2.3 was confusing.  The first thing I did was
glance back up the overview where I (a) didn't see "version" mentioned and (b)
initially thought that "af" was maybe a proxy for "version".

But then later on it seems that "version" is only a mandatory property of the
LSA.

I'm not sure that I have concretely useful suggestions for improving this text,
and in fact it might well be that for expected readers of the document this is
in fact a non-issue.  Just thought I'd relay my experience.

Nits/editorial comments:

Page 25: NMDA RFC is 8342, not 8242.

Page 81: references draft-ietf-bdf-yang-xx.txt. This is referenced
elsewhere in the doc (correctly), so I think just remove the -xx may
be fine?


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Subject: Re: [Lsr] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt
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From nobody Mon Jul 22 00:23:17 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] Opsdir telechat review of draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-06
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Reviewer: Tim Chown
Review result: Ready

I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included
in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs should
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.

The draft, which updates RFC5786, describes the approach of advertising
cross-address family OSPF TE information to support better integrated IPv4/IPv6
MPLS TE LSP infrastructures.

The document is well written and includes a good discussion of the problem
being addressed by the update, and a practical example of its application.

The draft is Ready for publication.


From nobody Mon Jul 22 12:20:29 2019
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
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Hi all,

Following the presentation and discussion today, we would welcome comments =
on the draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed-01

If you have multiple significant comments on the draft, expecting to turn i=
nto a discussion, it would probably be easier to handle by sending multiple=
 emails and keeping a single technical point par email.

Thanks,
Regards,
Bruno

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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<body lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"tab-interval:35.4=
pt">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Following the presentation and discussion today, we would welcome commen=
ts on the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-=
speed-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-spee=
d-01</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">If you have multiple significant comments on the draft, expecting to tur=
n into a discussion, it would probably be easier to handle by sending multi=
ple emails and keeping a single technical
 point par email.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:EN-U=
S">Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From nobody Mon Jul 22 14:01:10 2019
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To: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:00:32 -0400
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Subject: [Lsr] A-flag move
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Hi Folks,

following on what has been mentioned during the ISIS SRv6 draft update 
earlier today.

A-flag has been defined as a bit in the Flags field of the SRv6 Locator 
TLV. We would like to move this bit to the IPv4/IPv6 Extended 
Reachability Attribute Flags sub-TLV, which can be advertised as a
sub-TLV of the SRv6 Locator TLV.

Are there any implementations of the A-flag in the Flags field of the 
SRv6 Locator TLV?

thanks,
Peter


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To: IANA <iana@iana.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, IANA <iana@iana.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Early Allocation Request for "Dynamic Flooding on Dense Graphs" - draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding-03
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Hi!

This request is fine with me.   As we discussed at the meeting, I agree
that the conditions in rfc7120 have been met.

Alvaro.

On July 22, 2019 at 5:04:52 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) (acee@cisco.com) wrote:

> The authors of the subject draft have requested early IANA allocation of
> the IANA code-points defined in the draft. The LSR chairs and approved the
> request and are now requesting early allocation.  Alvaro (copied) will
> confirm his approval.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Acee Lindem
>
> LSR Co-Chair
>

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<html><head></head><body>Hi!<div><br></div><div>This request is fine with m=
e. =C2=A0 As we discussed at the meeting, I agree that the conditions in rf=
c7120 have been met.</div><div><br></div><div>Alvaro.<br> <p class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"color:#000">On July 22, 2019 at 5:04:52 PM, Acee Lindem (a=
cee) (<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div></div><div>





<title></title>


<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">The authors of
the subject draft have requested early IANA allocation of the IANA
code-points defined in the draft. The LSR chairs and approved the
request and are now requesting early allocation.=C2=A0 Alvaro
(copied) will confirm his approval. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Acee
Lindem</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">LSR
Co-Chair</span></p>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote> <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"></div>

</div></body></html>

--000000000000fe84c1058e4c626e--


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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS
        Authors         : Les Ginsberg
                          Paul Wells
                          Tony Li
                          Tony Przygienda
                          Shraddha Hegde
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-00.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2019-07-22

Abstract:
   Key to the extensibility of the Intermediate System to Intermediate
   System (IS-IS) protocol has been the handling of unsupported and/or
   invalid Type/Length/Value (TLV) tuples.  Although there are explicit
   statements in existing specifications, deployment experience has
   shown that there are inconsistencies in the behavior when a TLV which
   is disallowed in a particular Protocol Data Unit (PDU) is received.

   This document discusses such cases and makes the correct behavior
   explicit in order to insure that interoperability is maximized.

   This document when approved updates RFC3563, RFC5305, RFC6232, and
   RFC6233.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Hi all,

I=E2=80=99d like to continue the discussion that we left off with last nigh=
t.

The use case that I posited was a situation where we had 1000 LSPs to
flood. This is an interesting case that can happen if there was a large
network that partitioned and has now healed.  All LSPs from the other side
of the partition are going to need to be updated.

Let=E2=80=99s further suppose that the LSPs have an average size of 1KB.  T=
hus, the
entire transfer is around 1MB.

Suppose that we=E2=80=99re doing this on a 400Gb/s link. If we were to tran=
smit the
whole batch of LSPs at once, it takes a whopping 20us.  Not milliseconds,
microseconds.  2x10^-5s.  Clearly, we are not going to be rate limited by
bandwidth.

Note that 20us is an unreasonable lower bound: we cannot reasonably expect
a node to absorb 1k PDUs back to back without loss today, in addition to
all of it=E2=80=99s other responsibilities.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, suppose we transmit one PDU every
33ms.  That=E2=80=99s then going to take us 33 seconds to complete. Unreaso=
nably
slow.

How can we then maximize our goodput?  We know that the receiver has a set
of buffers and a processing rate that it can support. The processing rate
will vary, depending on other loads.

What we would like the transmitter to do is to transmit enough to create a
small processing queue on the receiver and then transmit at the receiver=E2=
=80=99s
processing rate.

Can we agree on this goal?

Tony

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<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi all,</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99d like to continue the discussion t=
hat we left off with last night.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">The use case that I posited was a situation where we had 1000 LSP=
s to flood. This is an interesting case that can happen if there was a larg=
e network that partitioned and has now healed.=C2=A0 All LSPs from the othe=
r side of the partition are going to need to be updated.</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Let=E2=80=99s further suppose that the LSP=
s have an average size of 1KB.=C2=A0 Thus, the entire transfer is around 1M=
B. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Suppose that w=
e=E2=80=99re doing this on a 400Gb/s link. If we were to transmit the whole=
 batch of LSPs at once, it takes a whopping 20us.=C2=A0 Not milliseconds, m=
icroseconds. =C2=A02x10^-5s.=C2=A0 Clearly, we are not going to be rate lim=
ited by bandwidth.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Note =
that 20us is an unreasonable lower bound: we cannot reasonably expect a nod=
e to absorb 1k PDUs back to back without loss today, in addition to all of =
it=E2=80=99s other responsibilities.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">At the opposite end of the spectrum, suppose we transmit one P=
DU every 33ms.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s then going to take us 33 seconds to com=
plete. Unreasonably slow.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">How can we then maximize our goodput?=C2=A0 We know that the receiver has=
 a set of buffers and a processing rate that it can support. The processing=
 rate will vary, depending on other loads.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">What we would like the transmitter to do is to transmit =
enough to create a small processing queue on the receiver and then transmit=
 at the receiver=E2=80=99s processing rate.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">Can we agree on this goal?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">Tony</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:55:47 -0400
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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--000000000000321c66058e5f6ff8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>
>
> It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of independent P2P
> =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can operate at a ra=
te independent of the
> other.
>
>
>
>
At least my experience much disagrees with that and such a proposal seems
to steer towards slowest receiver in the whole network problem so I wait
for others to chime in.

Then, to clarify on Tony's mail, the "problem" I mentioned anecdotally
yesterday as behavior I saw on things I did in their time was of course
when processors were still well under 1GHz and links in Gigs and not 10s
and 100s of Gigs we have today but yes, the limiting factor was the
flooding rate (or rather effective processing rate of receiver AFAIR before
it started drop the RX queues or was late enough to cause RE-TX on senders)
in terms of losses/retransmissions necessary that were causing transients
to the point it looked to me then the cure seemed worse than the disease
(while the disease was likely a flu then compared to today given we didn't
have massively dense meshes we steer towards today). The base spec &
mandated flooding numbers didn't change but what is possible in terms of
rates when breaking the spec did change of course in terms of CPU/links
speed albeit most ISIS implementations go back to megahertz processors
still ;-) And the dinner was great BTW ;-)

So yes, I do think that anything that will flood @ reasonable rate without
excessive losses will work well on well-computed
double-flood-reduced-graph, the question is how to get the "reasonable" in
place both in terms of numbers as well as mechanism for which we saw tons
lively discussions/proposal yesterday, most obvious being of course going
and manually bumping e'one's implementation to the desired (? ;-) value
...  Other consideration is having computation always trying to get more
than 2 links in minimal cut on the graph of course which should alleviate
any bottleneck or rather, make the cut less likely. Given quality of
max-disjoint-node/link graph computation algorithms that should be doable
by gut feeling. If e.g. the flood rate per link is available the algorithms
should be doing even better in centralized case.

BTW, with all that experience (MANET did its share in different space as we
know in terms of flood reduction as well) in RIFT we chose a solution based
on MANET derivative where every source chooses a different set of trees to
flood on using Fisher-Yates hashes but that seems possible only if you have
directionality on the graph (that's what I said once on the mike that doing
flood reduction in a lattice [partial rank-ordered graph with upper & lower
bounds] is fairly trivial, on generic graphs not so much necessarily). But
maybe Pascal reads that and gives it a think ;-)

as usual, 2 cents to improve the internet ;-)

--- tony

--000000000000321c66058e5f6ff8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gm=
ail-m_-1900165006984629695WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of=
 independent P2P =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can =
operate at a rate independent of the other.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>At least my experience much disagrees with that and such a proposal =
seems to steer towards slowest receiver in the whole network problem so I w=
ait for others to chime in. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Then, to clarify =
on Tony&#39;s mail, the &quot;problem&quot; I mentioned anecdotally yesterd=
ay as behavior I saw on things I did in their time was of course when proce=
ssors were still well under 1GHz and links in Gigs and not 10s and 100s of =
Gigs we have today but yes, the limiting factor was the flooding rate (or r=
ather effective processing rate of receiver AFAIR before it started drop th=
e RX queues or was late enough to cause RE-TX on senders) in terms of losse=
s/retransmissions necessary that were causing transients to the point it lo=
oked to me then the cure seemed worse than the disease (while the disease w=
as likely a flu then compared to today given we didn&#39;t have massively d=
ense meshes we steer towards today). The base spec &amp; mandated flooding =
numbers didn&#39;t change but what is possible in terms of rates when break=
ing the spec did change of course in terms of CPU/links speed albeit most I=
SIS implementations go back to megahertz processors still ;-) And the dinne=
r was great BTW ;-)<br></div><div><br></div><div>So yes, I do think that an=
ything that will flood @ reasonable rate without excessive losses will work=
 well on well-computed double-flood-reduced-graph, the question is how to g=
et the &quot;reasonable&quot; in place both in terms of numbers as well as =
mechanism for which we saw tons lively discussions/proposal yesterday, most=
 obvious being of course going and manually bumping e&#39;one&#39;s impleme=
ntation to the desired (? ;-) value ...=C2=A0 Other consideration is having=
 computation always trying to get more than 2 links in minimal cut on the g=
raph of course which should alleviate any bottleneck or rather, make the cu=
t less likely. Given quality of max-disjoint-node/link graph computation al=
gorithms that should be doable by gut feeling. If e.g. the flood rate per l=
ink is available the algorithms should be doing even better in centralized =
case. <br></div><div><br></div><div>BTW, with all that experience (MANET di=
d its share in different space as we know in terms of flood reduction as we=
ll) in RIFT we chose a solution based on MANET derivative where every sourc=
e chooses a different set of trees to flood on using Fisher-Yates hashes bu=
t that seems possible only if you have directionality on the graph (that&#3=
9;s what I said once on the mike that doing flood reduction in a lattice [p=
artial rank-ordered graph with upper &amp; lower bounds] is fairly trivial,=
 on generic graphs not so much necessarily). But maybe Pascal reads that an=
d gives it a think ;-)<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br><=
/div><div>as usual, 2 cents to improve the internet ;-)<br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>--- tony <br></div></div></div>

--000000000000321c66058e5f6ff8--


From nobody Tue Jul 23 14:13:55 2019
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:13:45 +0200
From: David Lamparter <equinox@diac24.net>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hi Les,


On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 08:29:30PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> [...] As network-wide convergence depends upon fast propagation of LSP
> changes -

you're losing me between that previous part and the next:

> - which in turn requires consistent flooding rates on all interfaces
> enabled for flooding [...]

I understand and follow your reasoning if we have a classical timer that
limits flooding rates per LSP.  If we get multiple updates to the same
LSP, dissimilar flooding rates imply we might just have sent out the
previous now-outdated state, and we block for some potentially lengthy
time before sending out the most recent version of that LSP.

I don't understand how we get delayed propagation of LSP changes if we
employ some mechanism to raise the flooding rate to something based
around the target system's capabilities.

Could you elaborate on how we get delayed LSP propagation in this
scenario?

Thanks,


-David


From nobody Tue Jul 23 14:15:21 2019
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From: Ladislav Lhotka via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Lsr] Yangdoctors last call review of draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23
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Reviewer: Ladislav Lhotka
Review result: Ready with Nits

I reviewed already revision 09 of this module [1]. All substantial
objections and suggestions expressed in that review are addressed in
revision 23 and I am satisfied with the result. I especially
appreciate that descriptions were considerably expanded and references
added in many places.

I tested validity of the ietf-ospf module with pyang and Yangson
tools, and found no issues. The comments below are non-substantial and
do not affect practical use of the module.

In summary, I think this YANG module and document is a remarkable
piece of work demonstrating that it is possible to build quite complex
vendor-neutral data model that can be used equally well with several
router plaforms.

Comments:

     - names of locally-defined identities as parameters of XPath
       functions derived-from and derived-from-or-self sometimes have
       the 'ospf:' prefix, sometimes don't. I suggest to be
       consistent, and the option without a prefix looks better to me.

     - RFC 8407 suggests this format of references to RFC:
       RFC XXXX: Title of the Document
       This draft uses a hyphen instead of a colon. I suggest to
       follow the 8407 convention so as to make parsing easier.

     - the title of Sec. 2.8 should be "OSPF Notifications" (plural
       and capitalization)

     - enumerations "nssa-translator-state-type" and
       "restart-status-type" define the value parameter
       for two of their enums but not for the third. This should be
       avoided.

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-ospf-yang-09-yangdoctors-lc-lhotka-2017-12-06/ 



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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
CC: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:32:19 -0400
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/XfIe8dHWV7hHta7JXP2iTEA1FyU>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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--0000000000008599e9058e5fef8f
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On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 5:24 PM Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

> Tony =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> As usual, you cover a lot of territory =E2=80=93 and even after a couple =
of
> readings I am not sure I got everything.
>

I was being accused of being too flowerly in my prose for many years so I
adopted an acerbic, terse style ;-)

>
> *From:* Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 1:56 PM
> *To:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>; lsr@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of independent P2P
> =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can operate at a ra=
te independent of the
> other.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At least my experience much disagrees with that and such a proposal seems
> to steer towards slowest receiver in the whole network problem so I wait
> for others to chime in.
>
> *[Les:] This is NOT AT ALL where I am going.*
>
> *If I have a =E2=80=9Clarge network=E2=80=9D and I have a node which cons=
istently cannot
> support the flooding rates necessary to deal with Tony Li=E2=80=99s examp=
le (node w
> many neighbors fails) then the network has a problem.*
>
> *Slowing down everyone to meet the flooding speed of the slowest speed is
> not something I would expect a customer to accept. The network will not b=
e
> able to deliver the convergence expected. The node in question needs to b=
e
> identified and steps taken to either fix it or upgrade or replace it or=
=E2=80=A6*
>
>
>
> *The point I am also making is trying to run the network with some links
> flooding fast and some links flooding slow isn=E2=80=99t a solution eithe=
r.*
>

hmm, then I don't know what you propose in normal case except saying
nothing seems to skin the cat properly when your network is loop-sided
enough. On which we agree I guess ...


>
>
> Then, to clarify on Tony's mail, the "problem" I mentioned anecdotally
> yesterday as behavior I saw on things I did in their time was of course
> when processors were still well under 1GHz and links in Gigs and not 10s
> and 100s of Gigs we have today but yes, the limiting factor was the
> flooding rate (or rather effective processing rate of receiver AFAIR befo=
re
> it started drop the RX queues or was late enough to cause RE-TX on sender=
s)
> in terms of losses/retransmissions necessary that were causing transients
> to the point it looked to me then the cure seemed worse than the disease
> (while the disease was likely a flu then compared to today given we didn'=
t
> have massively dense meshes we steer towards today). The base spec &
> mandated flooding numbers didn't change but what is possible in terms of
> rates when breaking the spec did change of course in terms of CPU/links
> speed albeit most ISIS implementations go back to megahertz processors
> still ;-) And the dinner was great BTW ;-)
>
>
>
> So yes, I do think that anything that will flood @ reasonable rate withou=
t
> excessive losses will work well on well-computed
> double-flood-reduced-graph, the question is how to get the "reasonable" i=
n
> place both in terms of numbers as well as mechanism for which we saw tons
> lively discussions/proposal yesterday, most obvious being of course going
> and manually bumping e'one's implementation to the desired (? ;-) value
> ...  Other consideration is having computation always trying to get more
> than 2 links in minimal cut on the graph of course which should alleviate
> any bottleneck or rather, make the cut less likely. Given quality of
> max-disjoint-node/link graph computation algorithms that should be doable
> by gut feeling. If e.g. the flood rate per link is available the algorith=
ms
> should be doing even better in centralized case.
>
>
>
> *[Les:] Convergence issues and flooding overload as a result of excessive
> redundant flooding is a real issue =E2=80=93 but it is a different proble=
m (for
> which we have solutions) and we should not introduce that issue into this
> discussion.*
>

hmm, we are trying to build flood reduction to deal with exactly this
problem I thought and we are trying to find a good solution in the design
space between a hamiltonian path and not reducing any links @ all where on
one hand the specter of long flooding chains & partitions on single link
failures looms while beckoning with very low CPU load and on the other hand
we can do nothing @ all while staring down the abyss of excessivly large,
densely meshed networks and falling of the cliff of melted flooding ...
So, I'm not sure I introduced anything new but if I did, ignore my attempt
@ clarification of what I said yesterday ...

--- tony

>

--0000000000008599e9058e5fef8f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 5:24 PM Les G=
insberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">ginsberg@cisco=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_8279531869894906806WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tony =E2=80=93<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As usual, you cover a lot of territory =E2=80=93 and=
 even after a couple of readings I am not sure I got everything.</p></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was being accused of being too flow=
erly in my prose for many years so I adopted an acerbic, terse style ;-)<br=
></div>=C2=A0<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D=
"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8279531869894906806WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;bord=
er-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tony Przygienda &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:t=
onysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 1:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Tony Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tony.li@tony.li" target=3D"_blank"=
>tony.li@tony.li</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of=
 independent P2P =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can =
operate at a rate independent of the other.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">At least my experience much disagrees with that and =
such a proposal seems to steer towards slowest receiver in the whole networ=
k problem so I wait for others to chime in.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[Les:] This is NOT AT ALL where I am going.<u>=
</u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>If I have a =E2=80=9Clarge network=E2=80=9D an=
d I have a node which consistently cannot support the flooding rates necess=
ary to deal with Tony Li=E2=80=99s example (node w many neighbors fails) th=
en the network has a problem.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Slowing down everyone to meet the flooding spe=
ed of the slowest speed is not something I would expect a customer to accep=
t. The network will not be able to deliver the convergence expected. The no=
de in question needs to be identified
 and steps taken to either fix it or upgrade or replace it or=E2=80=A6<u></=
u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>The point I am also making is trying to run th=
e network with some links flooding fast and some links flooding slow isn=E2=
=80=99t a solution either.</i></b></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>hmm, then I don&#39;t know what you propose=
 in normal case except saying nothing seems to skin the cat properly when y=
our network is loop-sided enough. On which we agree I guess ... <br></div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8279531869894906806WordSection1"><div styl=
e=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;border-style:=
none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;padding:0in 0i=
n 0in 4pt"><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u><u></u></i></=
b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then, to clarify on Tony&#39;s mail, the &quot;probl=
em&quot; I mentioned anecdotally yesterday as behavior I saw on things I di=
d in their time was of course when processors were still well under 1GHz an=
d links in Gigs and not 10s and 100s of Gigs we
 have today but yes, the limiting factor was the flooding rate (or rather e=
ffective processing rate of receiver AFAIR before it started drop the RX qu=
eues or was late enough to cause RE-TX on senders) in terms of losses/retra=
nsmissions necessary that were causing
 transients to the point it looked to me then the cure seemed worse than th=
e disease (while the disease was likely a flu then compared to today given =
we didn&#39;t have massively dense meshes we steer towards today). The base=
 spec &amp; mandated flooding numbers didn&#39;t
 change but what is possible in terms of rates when breaking the spec did c=
hange of course in terms of CPU/links speed albeit most ISIS implementation=
s go back to megahertz processors still ;-) And the dinner was great BTW ;-=
)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So yes, I do think that anything that will flood @ r=
easonable rate without excessive losses will work well on well-computed dou=
ble-flood-reduced-graph, the question is how to get the &quot;reasonable&qu=
ot; in place both in terms of numbers as well
 as mechanism for which we saw tons lively discussions/proposal yesterday, =
most obvious being of course going and manually bumping e&#39;one&#39;s imp=
lementation to the desired (? ;-) value ...=C2=A0 Other consideration is ha=
ving computation always trying to get more than
 2 links in minimal cut on the graph of course which should alleviate any b=
ottleneck or rather, make the cut less likely. Given quality of max-disjoin=
t-node/link graph computation algorithms that should be doable by gut feeli=
ng. If e.g. the flood rate per link
 is available the algorithms should be doing even better in centralized cas=
e. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[Les:] Convergence issues and flooding overloa=
d as a result of excessive redundant flooding is a real issue =E2=80=93 but=
 it is a different problem (for which we have solutions) and we should not =
introduce that issue into this discussion.</i></b></p></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>hmm, we are trying to build=
 flood reduction to deal with exactly this problem I thought and we are try=
ing to find a good solution in the design space between a hamiltonian path =
and not reducing any links @ all where on one hand the specter of long floo=
ding chains &amp; partitions on single link failures looms while beckoning =
with very low CPU load and on the other hand we can do nothing @ all while =
staring down the abyss of excessivly large, densely meshed networks and fal=
ling of the cliff of melted flooding ...=C2=A0 So, I&#39;m not sure I intro=
duced anything new but if I did, ignore my attempt @ clarification of what =
I said yesterday ... <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=
=3D"gmail-m_8279531869894906806WordSection1"><div style=3D"border-color:cur=
rentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;border-style:none none none solid;=
border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt"><div><div>=
<div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000008599e9058e5fef8f--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 00:02:00 +0200
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To: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hi Tony,

Are you working on the assumption that there is no data link layer flow
control already which could signal the OS congestion on the receiving end ?

Are we also working on the assumptions that when ISIS PDUs are send in DCs
(unknown today case when out of the sudden 1000s of LSPs may need to get
flooded) use of some L4 fancy flow control is an overkill and we must
invent new essentially L2 flow control to cover this case to address
partition repair ?

Thx,
R.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 3:34 PM Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I=E2=80=99d like to continue the discussion that we left off with last ni=
ght.
>
> The use case that I posited was a situation where we had 1000 LSPs to
> flood. This is an interesting case that can happen if there was a large
> network that partitioned and has now healed.  All LSPs from the other sid=
e
> of the partition are going to need to be updated.
>
> Let=E2=80=99s further suppose that the LSPs have an average size of 1KB. =
 Thus,
> the entire transfer is around 1MB.
>
> Suppose that we=E2=80=99re doing this on a 400Gb/s link. If we were to tr=
ansmit
> the whole batch of LSPs at once, it takes a whopping 20us.  Not
> milliseconds, microseconds.  2x10^-5s.  Clearly, we are not going to be
> rate limited by bandwidth.
>
> Note that 20us is an unreasonable lower bound: we cannot reasonably expec=
t
> a node to absorb 1k PDUs back to back without loss today, in addition to
> all of it=E2=80=99s other responsibilities.
>
> At the opposite end of the spectrum, suppose we transmit one PDU every
> 33ms.  That=E2=80=99s then going to take us 33 seconds to complete. Unrea=
sonably
> slow.
>
> How can we then maximize our goodput?  We know that the receiver has a se=
t
> of buffers and a processing rate that it can support. The processing rate
> will vary, depending on other loads.
>
> What we would like the transmitter to do is to transmit enough to create =
a
> small processing queue on the receiver and then transmit at the receiver=
=E2=80=99s
> processing rate.
>
> Can we agree on this goal?
>
> Tony
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Tony,<div><br></div><div>Are you working on the assumpt=
ion that there is no data link layer flow control already which could signa=
l the OS congestion on the receiving end ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>A=
re we also working on the assumptions that when ISIS PDUs are send in DCs (=
unknown today case when out of the sudden 1000s of LSPs may need to get flo=
oded) use of some L4 fancy flow control is an overkill and we must invent n=
ew essentially L2 flow control to cover this case to address partition repa=
ir ?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>R.</div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 23, =
2019 at 3:34 PM Tony Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tony.li@tony.li">tony.li@tony=
.li</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi all,</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99d like to continue the discussio=
n that we left off with last night.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">The use case that I posited was a situation where we had 1000 L=
SPs to flood. This is an interesting case that can happen if there was a la=
rge network that partitioned and has now healed.=C2=A0 All LSPs from the ot=
her side of the partition are going to need to be updated.</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Let=E2=80=99s further suppose that the L=
SPs have an average size of 1KB.=C2=A0 Thus, the entire transfer is around =
1MB. =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Suppose that=
 we=E2=80=99re doing this on a 400Gb/s link. If we were to transmit the who=
le batch of LSPs at once, it takes a whopping 20us.=C2=A0 Not milliseconds,=
 microseconds. =C2=A02x10^-5s.=C2=A0 Clearly, we are not going to be rate l=
imited by bandwidth.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Not=
e that 20us is an unreasonable lower bound: we cannot reasonably expect a n=
ode to absorb 1k PDUs back to back without loss today, in addition to all o=
f it=E2=80=99s other responsibilities.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">At the opposite end of the spectrum, suppose we transmit one=
 PDU every 33ms.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s then going to take us 33 seconds to c=
omplete. Unreasonably slow.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">How can we then maximize our goodput?=C2=A0 We know that the receiver h=
as a set of buffers and a processing rate that it can support. The processi=
ng rate will vary, depending on other loads.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">What we would like the transmitter to do is to transmi=
t enough to create a small processing queue on the receiver and then transm=
it at the receiver=E2=80=99s processing rate.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">Can we agree on this goal?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">Tony</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lsr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:17:33 -0400
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Subject: [Lsr] Fwd: [Rift] RIFT-Python flooding reduction feature guide
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I read quickly through it, very readable plain narrative explanation of the
IMO best-in-class flood reduction we've in RIFT, implemented and operating
today so I'm fwd'ing through to LSR given the lively discussions around the
topic these days there as well ... Understandably, the spec is dense and
detailed while you have the knack to make it into a digestable English
narrative ;-)

What you omitted is that the solution largely deals with the very difficult
problem of "flooding incast" when a parent node boots up as well by
ignoring first TIRE (request) when not being flood repeater ...

thanks Bruno

--- tony

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Bruno Rijsman <brunorijsman@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 6:04 PM
Subject: [Rift] RIFT-Python flooding reduction feature guide
To: <rift@ietf.org>


I just posted the feature guide for RIFT-Python flooding reduction:
http://bit.ly/flooding-reduction-feature-guide. This was implemented some
time ago already, but I finally got around to documenting it in preparation
for the RIFT working group meeting on Thursday.

Comments / corrections / pull requests welcome.

=E2=80=94 Bruno
_______________________________________________
RIFT mailing list
RIFT@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rift

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I read quickly through it, very readable plain narrat=
ive explanation of the IMO best-in-class flood reduction we&#39;ve in RIFT,=
 implemented and operating today so I&#39;m fwd&#39;ing through to LSR give=
n the lively discussions around the topic these days there as well ... Unde=
rstandably, the spec is dense and detailed while you have the knack to make=
 it into a digestable English narrative ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>What y=
ou omitted is that the solution largely deals with the very difficult probl=
em of &quot;flooding incast&quot; when a parent node boots up as well by ig=
noring first TIRE (request) when not being flood repeater ...=C2=A0 <br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>thanks Bruno <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony =
<br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_=
sendername" dir=3D"auto">Bruno Rijsman</b> <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:brunorijsman@gmail.com">brunorijsman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br=
>Date: Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 6:04 PM<br>Subject: [Rift] RIFT-Python flooding=
 reduction feature guide<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rift@ietf.org">rift@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-b=
reak:after-white-space"><span id=3D"m_7317952420755807579ember88" class=3D"=
m_7317952420755807579ember-view" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;outline:0px;ma=
rgin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-size:14px;vertical-align:baseline;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgba(0,0,0,0.901961);font-family:-apple=
-system,system-ui,system-ui,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,Roboto,&quot;Helvetica Neu=
e&quot;,&quot;Fira Sans&quot;,Ubuntu,Oxygen,&quot;Oxygen Sans&quot;,Cantare=
ll,&quot;Droid Sans&quot;,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoj=
i&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Lucida=
 Grande&quot;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-variant-ligatures:normal;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap;line-height:inherit!important;background-position:0px 0px;=
background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;outlin=
e:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline;line-height=
:inherit!important;background-position:0px 0px;background-repeat:initial in=
itial">I just posted the feature guide for RIFT-Python flooding reduction: =
<a href=3D"http://bit.ly/flooding-reduction-feature-guide" target=3D"_blank=
">http://bit.ly/flooding-reduction-feature-guide</a>.</span></span><span id=
=3D"m_7317952420755807579ember96" class=3D"m_7317952420755807579ember-view"=
 style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;outline:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;=
font-size:14px;vertical-align:baseline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);co=
lor:rgba(0,0,0,0.901961);font-family:-apple-system,system-ui,system-ui,&quo=
t;Segoe UI&quot;,Roboto,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,&quot;Fira Sans&quot;,Ub=
untu,Oxygen,&quot;Oxygen Sans&quot;,Cantarell,&quot;Droid Sans&quot;,&quot;=
Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quo=
t;,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Lucida Grande&quot;,Helvetica,Arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-variant-ligatures:normal;white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:inh=
erit!important;background-position:0px 0px;background-repeat:initial initia=
l"><span style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;outline:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;bor=
der:0px;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:inherit!important;background-po=
sition:0px 0px;background-repeat:initial initial"> This was implemented som=
e time ago already, but I finally got around to documenting it in preparati=
on for the RIFT working group meeting on Thursday.</span></span><div><div><=
font face=3D"-apple-system, system-ui, system-ui, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helveti=
ca Neue, Fira Sans, Ubuntu, Oxygen, Oxygen Sans, Cantarell, Droid Sans, App=
le Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Lucida Gra=
nde, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgba(0,0,0,0.901961=
);font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><b=
r></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"-apple-system, system-ui, system-u=
i, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Fira Sans, Ubuntu, Oxygen, Oxygen Sans=
, Cantarell, Droid Sans, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji,=
 Segoe UI Symbol, Lucida Grande, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgba(0,0,0,0.901961);font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;backgrou=
nd-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Comments / corrections / pull requests welcome.<=
/span></font></div><div><span class=3D"m_7317952420755807579ember-view" sty=
le=3D"box-sizing:inherit;outline:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font=
-size:14px;vertical-align:baseline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:=
rgba(0,0,0,0.901961);font-family:-apple-system,system-ui,system-ui,&quot;Se=
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: David Lamparter <equinox@diac24.net>
CC: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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David -

Let's take Tony's example test case.

A large network is partitioned and heals. As a result I now have 1000 LSPs =
which need to be flooded.

Let's suppose on most links/nodes in the network I can support receiving of=
 500 LSPs/second.
But on one link/node I can only support receiving 33 LSPs/second.

This means we are at risk for part of the network converging the LSPDB in 2=
+ seconds and part of the network converging the LSPDB in 33+ seconds.

Having the means for the node which only supports 33 LSPs/second to signal =
its "upstream neighbors" to not overflow its receive queue isn't going to h=
elp network convergence.

That's all I am saying.

   Les


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lamparter <equinox@diac24.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 2:14 PM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
> Cc: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>; lsr@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
>=20
> Hi Les,
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 08:29:30PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
> > [...] As network-wide convergence depends upon fast propagation of LSP
> > changes -
>=20
> you're losing me between that previous part and the next:
>=20
> > - which in turn requires consistent flooding rates on all interfaces
> > enabled for flooding [...]
>=20
> I understand and follow your reasoning if we have a classical timer that
> limits flooding rates per LSP.  If we get multiple updates to the same
> LSP, dissimilar flooding rates imply we might just have sent out the
> previous now-outdated state, and we block for some potentially lengthy
> time before sending out the most recent version of that LSP.
>=20
> I don't understand how we get delayed propagation of LSP changes if we
> employ some mechanism to raise the flooding rate to something based
> around the target system's capabilities.
>=20
> Could you elaborate on how we get delayed LSP propagation in this
> scenario?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>=20
> -David


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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>,  "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hi Robert,


> Are you working on the assumption that there is no data link layer =
flow control already which could signal the OS congestion on the =
receiving end ?=20


I am assuming that there is no link layer flow control.  I can=E2=80=99t =
recall working on a system that supports X.25 since about 1995, so I =
don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s a common use case today.=20


> Are we also working on the assumptions that when ISIS PDUs are send in =
DCs (unknown today case when out of the sudden 1000s of LSPs may need to =
get flooded) use of some L4 fancy flow control is an overkill and we =
must invent new essentially L2 flow control to cover this case to =
address partition repair ?=20


I am not assuming that the issue is restricted to the DC. Flooding is an =
issue in all IS-IS networks.

1000s of LSPs can occur in any IS-IS network of significant scale.  All =
it takes is healing a partition and there can easily be a large number =
of LSPs to transmit.  The case of 1000s of LSPs is of interest because =
the scale magnifies the flooding problem.  If we only have one LSP that =
needs flooding, this entire discussion is moot.

I am assuming that we want to go faster.  That does seem to be something =
that we have agreement on.

I am assuming that we dont=E2=80=99 want to go too fast.  Overrunning =
the receiver is wasteful. I think we all agree on that.

I am not assuming that we have to use some =E2=80=98L4 fancy flow =
control=E2=80=99, but I am trying to get a reasonable approximation to =
optimal goodput, with errors being on the conservative side (i.e., not =
overrunning the receiver).

My understanding of control theory is pretty rudimentary, but what I do =
know is that it is going to be very difficult to achieve high goodput =
without a control loop of some flavor. I=E2=80=99m open to how we do =
this.  Henk proposed that we simply pick up TCP for this, but my concern =
with that is really about introducing a whole new dependency to the =
protocol.  That=E2=80=99s a lot to chew.  Do we really need it all? I =
hope not.  Thus, Bruno=E2=80=99s original suggestion sparked my interest =
in doing something dynamic and simple.

Tony



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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,

> I also think we all agree on the goal - which is to flood =
significantly faster than many implementations do today to handle =
deployments like the case you mention below.


I agree with that, but you haven=E2=80=99t responded to the goal that I =
proposed: keep the receiver processing PDUs.


> Beyond this point, I have a different perspective.
> =20
> As network-wide convergence depends upon fast propagation of LSP =
changes =E2=80=93 which in turn requires consistent flooding rates on =
all interfaces enabled for flooding =E2=80=93 a properly provisioned =
network MUST be able to sustain a consistent flooding rate or the =
operation of the network will suffer. We therefore need to view flow =
control issues as indicative of a problem.
> =20
> It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of independent P2P =
=E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can operate at a =
rate independent of the other.
> =20
> If we can agree on this, then I believe we will have placed the flow =
control problem in its proper perspective =E2=80=93 in which case it =
will become easier to agree on the best way to implement flow control.


I agree that we want network wide convergence.  However, I disagree that =
the right thing to do is to uniformly flood at the same rate on all =
interfaces.

First, the rate that you select might be too fast for one neighbor and =
not for the others.  Real flow control would help address this.

Second, all flooding paths are not created equal.  You do not know, a =
priori, how to flood to get uniform network wide propagation.  The =
variance in CPU loading alone is going to cause different routers to =
flood at different rates, and so it may actaully be optimal to flood =
quickly down one path, knowing that the data will reach the other end of =
the network and flood back before the slow CPU can absorb and flood.

Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU speed in the entire =
network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and absurdly slow =
even with that.

Tony


--Apple-Mail=_94F78935-76F5-4DA2-9F7D-931BDF8F15D4
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Les,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I also =
think we all agree on the goal - which is to flood significantly faster =
than many implementations do today to handle deployments like the case =
you mention below.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I agree with that, but =
you haven=E2=80=99t responded to the goal that I proposed: keep the =
receiver processing PDUs.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Beyond =
this point, I have a different perspective.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As =
network-wide convergence depends upon fast propagation of LSP changes =
=E2=80=93 which in turn requires consistent flooding rates on all =
interfaces enabled for flooding =E2=80=93 a properly provisioned network =
MUST be able to sustain a consistent flooding rate or the operation of =
the network will suffer. We therefore need to view flow control issues =
as indicative of a problem.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding =
with a set of independent P2P =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =
each of which can operate at a rate independent of the other.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If we can =
agree on this, then I believe we will have placed the flow control =
problem in its proper perspective =E2=80=93 in which case it will become =
easier to agree on the best way to implement flow control.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I agree that we want =
network wide convergence. &nbsp;However, I disagree that the right thing =
to do is to uniformly flood at the same rate on all =
interfaces.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">First, the rate that you select might be too fast for one =
neighbor and not for the others. &nbsp;Real flow control would help =
address this.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Second, all flooding paths are not created equal. &nbsp;You =
do not know, a priori, how to flood to get uniform network wide =
propagation. &nbsp;The variance in CPU loading alone is going to cause =
different routers to flood at different rates, and so it may actaully be =
optimal to flood quickly down one path, knowing that the data will reach =
the other end of the network and flood back before the slow CPU can =
absorb and flood.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU speed in =
the entire network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and =
absurdly slow even with that.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Tony</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_94F78935-76F5-4DA2-9F7D-931BDF8F15D4--


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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,

> There is something to be said for simply =E2=80=9Cflooding fast=E2=80=9D=
 and not worrying about flow control at all (regardless of whether TX or =
RX mechanisms would be used).


The only thing I would say to that is: really bad idea.

If you supersaturate the receiver, you waste transmitter in the =
transmission, you swamp the receiver causing packet loss, you =
potentially trigger the loss of IIH=E2=80=99s, you risk causing a =
cascade failure, and until we come up with a better retransmission =
mechanism, you probably actually delay network convergence, as nothing =
is going to happen until you=E2=80=99ve completed retransmissions.

The way to maximize goodput is NOT to transmit blindly.


> But most important to me is to recognize that flow control (however =
done) is not fixing anything =E2=80=93 nor making the flooding work =
better. The network is compromised and flow control won=E2=80=99t fix =
it.


???? The network is not compromised.


> If you accept that, then it makes sense to look for the simplest way =
to do flow control and that is decidedly not from the RX side. (I expect =
Tony Li to disagree with that =F0=9F=98=8A=E2=80=93 but I have already =
outlined why it is more complex to do it from the Rx side.)



Flow control cannot be done without involvement of the RX side.  =
That=E2=80=99s why it=E2=80=99s called flow _control_.  The only thing =
that can be done purely from the TX side is a unilateral (and pessimal) =
transmit rate cap that will have to allow for the worst case CPU in the =
worst case situation (e.g., BGP impacting the CPU).

Flow control is the creation of a control loop and that requires =
feedback from the receiver.  This is true in every form of true flow =
control: XON/XOFF, RTS/CTS, sliding window protocols, credit based =
fabric mechanisms, etc. =20

I=E2=80=99ll go so far as to quote Wikipedia:

"In data communications =
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_communications>, flow control is the =
process of managing the rate of data transmission between two nodes to =
prevent a fast sender from overwhelming a slow receiver. It provides a =
mechanism for the receiver to control the transmission speed, so that =
the receiving node is not overwhelmed with data from transmitting =
node.=E2=80=9D

Tony


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Les,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There is something to be =
said for simply =E2=80=9Cflooding fast=E2=80=9D and not worrying about =
flow control at all (regardless of whether TX or RX mechanisms would be =
used). </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The only thing I would say to that is: really bad =
idea.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If you supersaturate the =
receiver, you waste transmitter in the transmission, you swamp the =
receiver causing packet loss, you potentially trigger the loss of =
IIH=E2=80=99s, you risk causing a cascade failure, and until we come up =
with a better retransmission mechanism, you probably actually delay =
network convergence, as nothing is going to happen until you=E2=80=99ve =
completed retransmissions.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The way =
to maximize goodput is NOT to transmit blindly.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">But most important to me is to =
recognize that flow control (however done) is not fixing anything =E2=80=93=
 nor making the flooding work better. The network is compromised and =
flow control won=E2=80=99t fix =
it.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div>???? The network is not compromised.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you accept that, then it makes sense =
to look for the simplest way to do flow control and that is decidedly =
not from the RX side. (I expect Tony Li to disagree with that<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=F0=9F=98=8A</span>=E2=
=80=93 but I have already outlined why it is more complex to do it from =
the Rx side.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Flow control cannot be done without involvement of =
the RX side. &nbsp;That=E2=80=99s why it=E2=80=99s called flow =
_control_. &nbsp;The only thing that can be done purely from the TX side =
is a unilateral (and pessimal) transmit rate cap that will have to allow =
for the worst case CPU in the worst case situation (e.g., BGP impacting =
the CPU).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Flow control is the =
creation of a control loop and that requires feedback from the receiver. =
&nbsp;This is true in every form of true flow control: XON/XOFF, =
RTS/CTS, sliding window protocols, credit based fabric mechanisms, etc. =
&nbsp;</div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99ll go so far =
as to quote Wikipedia:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>"<span =
style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">In&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_communications" =
class=3D"mw-redirect" title=3D"Data communications" =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(11, 0, 128); =
background-image: none; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
font-family: sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">data communications</a><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, =
34); font-family: sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: =
2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">,&nbsp;</span><b style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); =
font-family: sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">flow =
control</b><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: =
sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">&nbsp;is the process =
of managing the rate of data transmission between two nodes to prevent a =
fast sender from overwhelming a slow receiver. It provides a mechanism =
for the receiver to control the transmission speed, so that the =
receiving node is not overwhelmed with data from transmitting =
node.=E2=80=9D</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); =
font-family: sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); =
font-family: sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">Tony</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); =
font-family: sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div></body></html>=

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From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:07:16 +0200
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To: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hi Tony,

> I am assuming that there is no link layer flow control.  I can=E2=80=99t =
recall
> working on a system that supports X.25 since about 1995, so I don=E2=80=
=99t think
> that=E2=80=99s a common use case today.
>

I was more thinking along the lines of leveraging IEEE 802.3x or 802.1Qbb
standard not necessarily suggest fancy X.25 or Frame Relay :)

 Henk proposed that we simply pick up TCP for this, but my concern with
> that is really about introducing a whole new dependency to the protocol.
> That=E2=80=99s a lot to chew.  Do we really need it all? I hope not.  Thu=
s, Bruno=E2=80=99s
> original suggestion sparked my interest in doing something dynamic and
> simple.
>

The second part of the question was really about at what layer it makes
most sense to provide this control loop.

Options seems to be:

* Invent new or use existing link layer flow control (IEEE)
* Reuse existing transport layer (TCP)
* App layer (QUIC or QUIC like)

I guess it would be useful to up front list on what type of media this must
be supported as it may change the game drastically:

* directly connected fiber p2p
* p2mp (via switch)
* p2p over encapsulation
etc...

Thx,
R.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Tony,</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small"></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">I am assuming that there is no link layer flow control.=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=
=99t recall working on a system that supports X.25 since about 1995, so I d=
on=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s a common use case today. <br></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I was more thinking along the lines=
 of leveraging IEEE 802.3x or 802.1Qbb standard not necessarily suggest fan=
cy X.25 or Frame Relay :)=C2=A0</div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0Henk proposed that we simply pick up TCP for th=
is, but my concern with that is really about introducing a whole new depend=
ency to the protocol.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a lot to chew.=C2=A0 Do we reall=
y need it all? I hope not.=C2=A0 Thus, Bruno=E2=80=99s original suggestion =
sparked my interest in doing something dynamic and simple.<br></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The second part of the question was =
really about at what layer it makes most sense to provide this control loop=
.=C2=A0</div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Options seems to be:=C2=A0</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* Invent new or use exi=
sting link layer flow control (IEEE)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* Reuse existi=
ng transport layer (TCP)=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* App layer (QUIC or=
 QUIC like)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I guess it=
 would be useful to up front list on what type of media this must be suppor=
ted as it may change the game drastically:=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* directly connected fiber p2p=C2=A0</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">* p2mp (via switch)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* p2p over e=
ncapsulation=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">etc...</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div></div>

--0000000000004f8d96058e69a3fe--


From nobody Wed Jul 24 05:34:25 2019
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From: henk.ietf@xs4all.nl
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hello Les,

Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) schreef op 2019-07-24 07:17:
> 
> There is something to be said for simply “flooding fast” and not
> worrying about flow control at all (regardless of whether TX or RX
> mechanisms would be used). Some packets would be dropped, but
> retransmission timers will insure that the flooding eventually
> succeeds and retransmit timers are long (5 seconds by default). (I am
> not the only one mentioning this BTW…)

Why do we have initial waits and exponential backoffs for LSP-generation
and SPF-computations ? Why not react immediately ? Why not react 
constantly ?

We have a lot of bandwidth and cpu-power now. Isn't simple always better
than "overly complex stuff" like exponential backoffs ? If you have more
cpu-power, more memory and more bandwidth, why invent new algorithms ?

henk.


I hope it is clear to everyone that these are not serious questions. I'm 
just
saying: "sometimes fast is slow". I am sure that if we ask the "old 
guys", they
can come up with many stories how these problems are sometimes 
counter-intuitive.
And how networks have melted because "fast is slow". I could tell at 
least 2
of those stories myself.


From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:18:21 2019
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From: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hello Les,

Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote on 2019-07-24 07:17:

> If you accept that, then it makes sense to look for the simplest way
> to do flow control and that is decidedly not from the RX side. (I
> expect Tony Li to disagree with that 😊 – but I have already
> outlined why it is more complex to do it from the Rx side.)

In your talk on Monday you called the idea in
draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed-01 "receiver driven flow 
control".
You don't like that. You want "transmit based flow control".
You argued that you can do "transmit based flow control" on the sender 
only.
Therefor your algorithm is merely a "local trick".
And "local tricks" don't need RFCs. I agree with that.
But I don't agree that your algorithm is just a "local trick".


In your algorithm, a "sender" sends a number of LSPs to a receiver.
Without waiting for acks (PNSPs). Like in any sliding window protocol.
The sending router keeps an eye on the number of unacked LSPs.
And it determines how fast it can send more LSPs based on the current
number of unacked LSPs. Every time the sender receives a PSNP, it
knows the receiver got a number of LSPs, so it can increase its
send-window again, and then send more LSPs.
Correct ?

I agree that the core idea of this algorithm makes sense.
After all, it looks a lot like TCP.
I believe the authors of draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed were
planning something like that for the next version of their draft.


However, I do not agree with the name "tx driven flow control".
I also do not agree that this algorithm is "a local trick".
Therefor I also do not think this algorithm doesn't need to be
documented (in an RFC).

In your "tx based flow control", the sender (tx) sends LSPs at a rate
that is derived from the rate at which it receives PSNPs. Therefor
it is the sender of the PSNPs that sets the speed of transmission !
So it is still the receiver (of LSPs) that controls the flow control.
The name "tx based flow control" is a little misleading, imho.


It is important to realize that the success of your algorithm actually
depends on the behaviour of the receiver. How does it send PSNPs ?
Does it send one PSNP per received LSP ? Or does it pack multiple acks
in one PSNP ? Does it send a PSNP immediatly, or does it wait a short
time ? Does it try to fill a PSNP to the max (putting ~90 acks in one
PSNP) ? Does the receiver does something in between ? I don't think
the behaviour is specified exactly anywhere.

I know about an IS-IS implementation from the nineties. When a router
would receive an LSP, it would a) set the SSN bit (for that 
LSP/interface),
and b) start the psnp-timer for that interface (if not already running).
The psnp-timer would expire 2 seconds later. The router would then walk
the LSPDB, find all LSPs with the SSN-bit set for that interface. And
then build a PSNP with acks for all those LSPs. The result would be
that: a) the first PSNP would be send 2 seconds (+/- jitter) after
receiving the first LSP, and b) the PSNP would include ~66 acks. (As
a router receiving at full speed would have received 66 LSPs in 2 
seconds).

For your "tx based flow control" algorithm to work properly, this has
to change. The receiving router must send PSNPs more quickly and more
aggressively. The result would be that there will be less acks in each
PSNP. And thus more PSNPs will be sent.

This makes us realize: in the current situation, if a router receives
a 1000 LSPs, and sends those LSPs to 64 neighbors, it would receive:
- the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus
- 1000/66 = 16 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor = 64 * 16 = 1024 
PSNPs.
This makes a total of ~2000K PDUs received.

If routers would send one PSNP per LSP (to have faster flow control),
then the router in this example would receive:
- the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus
- 1000 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor * 16 = 1600 PSNPs.
This makes a total of ~17000 PDUs received.

The total number of PDUs received on this router would go from 2K PDUs
to 17K PDUs.

Remember that the problem we're trying to solve here is to make sure
that routers do not get overrun on the receipt side with too many
packets too quickly. It seems an aggressive PSNP-scheme, to achieve
faster flow-control, is actually very counter-productive.

Of course the algorithm can be tweaked. E.g. TCP sends one ack per
every 2 received segments (if I'm not mistaken). If we do that here,
the number of PDUs would go down from 17K to 9K PDUs. What do you
propose ? How do you want the feedback of PSNPs to be quick, while
maintaining an efficient packing of multiple acks per PSNP ?


In any case, the points I'm trying to make here:
*) Your algorithm is not sender-driven, but still receiver-driven.
*) Your algorithm changes/dictates behaviour both on sender and 
receiver.
*) Interaction between a sender and a receiver is what we call a 
protocol.
    If you want to make this work, especially in multi-vendor 
environments,
    we need to document these algorithms. Aka in an RFC.

Kind regards,

henk.


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From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
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To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
Cc: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>,  "<stephane.litkowski@orange.com>" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, lsr@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hey Henk & all,

If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as long as
Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - is this
really a problem ?

Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link flap or
node going down. We are talking about serious network partitioning which
itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just considering
absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, if we put things in
the overall perspective is there really a problem to be solved in the first
place ?

Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking maybe not
for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?

Thx,
R.








On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 3:18 PM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
> Hello Les,
>
> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote on 2019-07-24 07:17:
>
> > If you accept that, then it makes sense to look for the simplest way
> > to do flow control and that is decidedly not from the RX side. (I
> > expect Tony Li to disagree with that =F0=9F=98=8A =E2=80=93 but I have =
already
> > outlined why it is more complex to do it from the Rx side.)
>
> In your talk on Monday you called the idea in
> draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed-01 "receiver driven flow
> control".
> You don't like that. You want "transmit based flow control".
> You argued that you can do "transmit based flow control" on the sender
> only.
> Therefor your algorithm is merely a "local trick".
> And "local tricks" don't need RFCs. I agree with that.
> But I don't agree that your algorithm is just a "local trick".
>
>
> In your algorithm, a "sender" sends a number of LSPs to a receiver.
> Without waiting for acks (PNSPs). Like in any sliding window protocol.
> The sending router keeps an eye on the number of unacked LSPs.
> And it determines how fast it can send more LSPs based on the current
> number of unacked LSPs. Every time the sender receives a PSNP, it
> knows the receiver got a number of LSPs, so it can increase its
> send-window again, and then send more LSPs.
> Correct ?
>
> I agree that the core idea of this algorithm makes sense.
> After all, it looks a lot like TCP.
> I believe the authors of draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed were
> planning something like that for the next version of their draft.
>
>
> However, I do not agree with the name "tx driven flow control".
> I also do not agree that this algorithm is "a local trick".
> Therefor I also do not think this algorithm doesn't need to be
> documented (in an RFC).
>
> In your "tx based flow control", the sender (tx) sends LSPs at a rate
> that is derived from the rate at which it receives PSNPs. Therefor
> it is the sender of the PSNPs that sets the speed of transmission !
> So it is still the receiver (of LSPs) that controls the flow control.
> The name "tx based flow control" is a little misleading, imho.
>
>
> It is important to realize that the success of your algorithm actually
> depends on the behaviour of the receiver. How does it send PSNPs ?
> Does it send one PSNP per received LSP ? Or does it pack multiple acks
> in one PSNP ? Does it send a PSNP immediatly, or does it wait a short
> time ? Does it try to fill a PSNP to the max (putting ~90 acks in one
> PSNP) ? Does the receiver does something in between ? I don't think
> the behaviour is specified exactly anywhere.
>
> I know about an IS-IS implementation from the nineties. When a router
> would receive an LSP, it would a) set the SSN bit (for that
> LSP/interface),
> and b) start the psnp-timer for that interface (if not already running).
> The psnp-timer would expire 2 seconds later. The router would then walk
> the LSPDB, find all LSPs with the SSN-bit set for that interface. And
> then build a PSNP with acks for all those LSPs. The result would be
> that: a) the first PSNP would be send 2 seconds (+/- jitter) after
> receiving the first LSP, and b) the PSNP would include ~66 acks. (As
> a router receiving at full speed would have received 66 LSPs in 2
> seconds).
>
> For your "tx based flow control" algorithm to work properly, this has
> to change. The receiving router must send PSNPs more quickly and more
> aggressively. The result would be that there will be less acks in each
> PSNP. And thus more PSNPs will be sent.
>
> This makes us realize: in the current situation, if a router receives
> a 1000 LSPs, and sends those LSPs to 64 neighbors, it would receive:
> - the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus
> - 1000/66 =3D 16 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor =3D 64 * 16 =3D 1024
> PSNPs.
> This makes a total of ~2000K PDUs received.
>
> If routers would send one PSNP per LSP (to have faster flow control),
> then the router in this example would receive:
> - the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus
> - 1000 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor * 16 =3D 1600 PSNPs.
> This makes a total of ~17000 PDUs received.
>
> The total number of PDUs received on this router would go from 2K PDUs
> to 17K PDUs.
>
> Remember that the problem we're trying to solve here is to make sure
> that routers do not get overrun on the receipt side with too many
> packets too quickly. It seems an aggressive PSNP-scheme, to achieve
> faster flow-control, is actually very counter-productive.
>
> Of course the algorithm can be tweaked. E.g. TCP sends one ack per
> every 2 received segments (if I'm not mistaken). If we do that here,
> the number of PDUs would go down from 17K to 9K PDUs. What do you
> propose ? How do you want the feedback of PSNPs to be quick, while
> maintaining an efficient packing of multiple acks per PSNP ?
>
>
> In any case, the points I'm trying to make here:
> *) Your algorithm is not sender-driven, but still receiver-driven.
> *) Your algorithm changes/dictates behaviour both on sender and
> receiver.
> *) Interaction between a sender and a receiver is what we call a
> protocol.
>     If you want to make this work, especially in multi-vendor
> environments,
>     we need to document these algorithms. Aka in an RFC.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> henk.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hey Henk &amp; all,</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small">If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max =
66 per PSNP) or even as long as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony sa=
id may take 33 sec - is this really a problem ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Remember we are not talking about protocol conver=
gence after link flap or node going down. We are talking about serious netw=
ork partitioning which itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. W=
hile just considering absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster=
, if we put things in the overall perspective is there really a problem to =
be solved in the first place ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster a=
cking maybe not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,<br>R.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 3:18 PM Henk Sm=
it &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl">henk.ietf@xs4all.nl</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello Les,<br>
<br>
Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote on 2019-07-24 07:17:<br>
<br>
&gt; If you accept that, then it makes sense to look for the simplest way<b=
r>
&gt; to do flow control and that is decidedly not from the RX side. (I<br>
&gt; expect Tony Li to disagree with that =F0=9F=98=8A =E2=80=93 but I have=
 already<br>
&gt; outlined why it is more complex to do it from the Rx side.)<br>
<br>
In your talk on Monday you called the idea in<br>
draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed-01 &quot;receiver driven flow <br>
control&quot;.<br>
You don&#39;t like that. You want &quot;transmit based flow control&quot;.<=
br>
You argued that you can do &quot;transmit based flow control&quot; on the s=
ender <br>
only.<br>
Therefor your algorithm is merely a &quot;local trick&quot;.<br>
And &quot;local tricks&quot; don&#39;t need RFCs. I agree with that.<br>
But I don&#39;t agree that your algorithm is just a &quot;local trick&quot;=
.<br>
<br>
<br>
In your algorithm, a &quot;sender&quot; sends a number of LSPs to a receive=
r.<br>
Without waiting for acks (PNSPs). Like in any sliding window protocol.<br>
The sending router keeps an eye on the number of unacked LSPs.<br>
And it determines how fast it can send more LSPs based on the current<br>
number of unacked LSPs. Every time the sender receives a PSNP, it<br>
knows the receiver got a number of LSPs, so it can increase its<br>
send-window again, and then send more LSPs.<br>
Correct ?<br>
<br>
I agree that the core idea of this algorithm makes sense.<br>
After all, it looks a lot like TCP.<br>
I believe the authors of draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed were<br>
planning something like that for the next version of their draft.<br>
<br>
<br>
However, I do not agree with the name &quot;tx driven flow control&quot;.<b=
r>
I also do not agree that this algorithm is &quot;a local trick&quot;.<br>
Therefor I also do not think this algorithm doesn&#39;t need to be<br>
documented (in an RFC).<br>
<br>
In your &quot;tx based flow control&quot;, the sender (tx) sends LSPs at a =
rate<br>
that is derived from the rate at which it receives PSNPs. Therefor<br>
it is the sender of the PSNPs that sets the speed of transmission !<br>
So it is still the receiver (of LSPs) that controls the flow control.<br>
The name &quot;tx based flow control&quot; is a little misleading, imho.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
It is important to realize that the success of your algorithm actually<br>
depends on the behaviour of the receiver. How does it send PSNPs ?<br>
Does it send one PSNP per received LSP ? Or does it pack multiple acks<br>
in one PSNP ? Does it send a PSNP immediatly, or does it wait a short<br>
time ? Does it try to fill a PSNP to the max (putting ~90 acks in one<br>
PSNP) ? Does the receiver does something in between ? I don&#39;t think<br>
the behaviour is specified exactly anywhere.<br>
<br>
I know about an IS-IS implementation from the nineties. When a router<br>
would receive an LSP, it would a) set the SSN bit (for that <br>
LSP/interface),<br>
and b) start the psnp-timer for that interface (if not already running).<br=
>
The psnp-timer would expire 2 seconds later. The router would then walk<br>
the LSPDB, find all LSPs with the SSN-bit set for that interface. And<br>
then build a PSNP with acks for all those LSPs. The result would be<br>
that: a) the first PSNP would be send 2 seconds (+/- jitter) after<br>
receiving the first LSP, and b) the PSNP would include ~66 acks. (As<br>
a router receiving at full speed would have received 66 LSPs in 2 <br>
seconds).<br>
<br>
For your &quot;tx based flow control&quot; algorithm to work properly, this=
 has<br>
to change. The receiving router must send PSNPs more quickly and more<br>
aggressively. The result would be that there will be less acks in each<br>
PSNP. And thus more PSNPs will be sent.<br>
<br>
This makes us realize: in the current situation, if a router receives<br>
a 1000 LSPs, and sends those LSPs to 64 neighbors, it would receive:<br>
- the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus<br>
- 1000/66 =3D 16 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor =3D 64 * 16 =3D 1024 <=
br>
PSNPs.<br>
This makes a total of ~2000K PDUs received.<br>
<br>
If routers would send one PSNP per LSP (to have faster flow control),<br>
then the router in this example would receive:<br>
- the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus<br>
- 1000 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor * 16 =3D 1600 PSNPs.<br>
This makes a total of ~17000 PDUs received.<br>
<br>
The total number of PDUs received on this router would go from 2K PDUs<br>
to 17K PDUs.<br>
<br>
Remember that the problem we&#39;re trying to solve here is to make sure<br=
>
that routers do not get overrun on the receipt side with too many<br>
packets too quickly. It seems an aggressive PSNP-scheme, to achieve<br>
faster flow-control, is actually very counter-productive.<br>
<br>
Of course the algorithm can be tweaked. E.g. TCP sends one ack per<br>
every 2 received segments (if I&#39;m not mistaken). If we do that here,<br=
>
the number of PDUs would go down from 17K to 9K PDUs. What do you<br>
propose ? How do you want the feedback of PSNPs to be quick, while<br>
maintaining an efficient packing of multiple acks per PSNP ?<br>
<br>
<br>
In any case, the points I&#39;m trying to make here:<br>
*) Your algorithm is not sender-driven, but still receiver-driven.<br>
*) Your algorithm changes/dictates behaviour both on sender and <br>
receiver.<br>
*) Interaction between a sender and a receiver is what we call a <br>
protocol.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you want to make this work, especially in multi-vendor <br=
>
environments,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 we need to document these algorithms. Aka in an RFC.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
henk.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lsr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000003f9a5c058e6d5dd4--


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:11:39 +0200
From: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
To: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Cc: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, lsr@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hello Robert,

Tony brought up the example of a partioned network.
But there are more examples.

E.g. in a network there is a router with a 1000 neighbors.
(When discussing distributed vs centralized flooding-topology
  reduction algorithms, I've been told these network designs exist).
When such a router reboots/crashes/comes back up, all 1000 neighbors
will create a new version of their own LSP. This causes a 1000 different
LSPs to be flooded through the network at the same time. Impacting every
router in the network.

The case I was thinking of myself, was when a router in a large network
boots. When it brings up a number of adjacencies, each neighbor will
try to synchronize its LSPDB with the newly booted router. As the newly
booted router will send emtpy CSNPs to each of its neighbors, each
neighbor will start sending the full LSPDB. If such a network has 10k
LSPs, and such a router has 100 neighbors, that router will receive 100 
* 10k
is 1 million LSPs. Having a faster and more efficient flooding 
transport,
with flow-control, will make a reboot in such a topology less painful.

(In that last case, creative use of the overload-bit could prevent 
black-holing
or microloops while ISIS synchronizes its LSPDB after a reboot. Just 
like we
used the overload-bit to solve the problem of slow convergence of BGP 
after
a reboot, 22 years ago. I have no idea if there are any implementations 
that
use the overload-bit to alleviate slow convergence of IS-IS after a 
reboot).

henk.


Robert Raszuk schreef op 2019-07-24 15:33:
> Hey Henk & all,
> 
> If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as long
> as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - is
> this really a problem ?
> 
> Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link flap
> or node going down. We are talking about serious network partitioning
> which itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just
> considering absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, if
> we put things in the overall perspective is there really a problem to
> be solved in the first place ?
> 
> Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking
> maybe not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?
> 
> Thx,
> R.


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:38:49 +0200
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To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>,  lsr@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hi,

Yes indeed while I was reading your richly connected node restart problem
use of overload-bit should be explored, proposed, implemented.

For the partition problem I have two general comments:

a) If network partitions is likely to happen more often in the case of
dynamic flooding perhaps as already said before we should increase the max
number of occurrences given LSP is to arrive at flooding optimized node.
Two may not be enough.

b)  If protocol extensions will help to mitigate effects of network
partition via much faster repair some folks may treat network partitions as
normal operational model and instead of re-architecting the network to make
sure network partition events are as rear as possible.

Thx,
R.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 4:12 PM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
> Hello Robert,
>
> Tony brought up the example of a partioned network.
> But there are more examples.
>
> E.g. in a network there is a router with a 1000 neighbors.
> (When discussing distributed vs centralized flooding-topology
>   reduction algorithms, I've been told these network designs exist).
> When such a router reboots/crashes/comes back up, all 1000 neighbors
> will create a new version of their own LSP. This causes a 1000 different
> LSPs to be flooded through the network at the same time. Impacting every
> router in the network.
>
> The case I was thinking of myself, was when a router in a large network
> boots. When it brings up a number of adjacencies, each neighbor will
> try to synchronize its LSPDB with the newly booted router. As the newly
> booted router will send emtpy CSNPs to each of its neighbors, each
> neighbor will start sending the full LSPDB. If such a network has 10k
> LSPs, and such a router has 100 neighbors, that router will receive 100
> * 10k
> is 1 million LSPs. Having a faster and more efficient flooding
> transport,
> with flow-control, will make a reboot in such a topology less painful.
>
> (In that last case, creative use of the overload-bit could prevent
> black-holing
> or microloops while ISIS synchronizes its LSPDB after a reboot. Just
> like we
> used the overload-bit to solve the problem of slow convergence of BGP
> after
> a reboot, 22 years ago. I have no idea if there are any implementations
> that
> use the overload-bit to alleviate slow convergence of IS-IS after a
> reboot).
>
> henk.
>
>
> Robert Raszuk schreef op 2019-07-24 15:33:
> > Hey Henk & all,
> >
> > If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as long
> > as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - is
> > this really a problem ?
> >
> > Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link flap
> > or node going down. We are talking about serious network partitioning
> > which itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just
> > considering absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, if
> > we put things in the overall perspective is there really a problem to
> > be solved in the first place ?
> >
> > Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking
> > maybe not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?
> >
> > Thx,
> > R.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Yes indeed while I was reading your=
 richly connected node restart problem use of overload-bit should be explor=
ed, proposed, implemented.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>For the partition=
 problem I have two general comments:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>a) If =
network partitions is likely to happen more often in the case of dynamic fl=
ooding perhaps as already said before we should increase the max number of =
occurrences given LSP is to arrive at flooding optimized node. Two may not =
be enough.</div><div><br></div><div>b)=C2=A0 If protocol extensions will he=
lp to mitigate effects of network partition via much faster repair some fol=
ks may treat network partitions as normal operational model and instead of =
re-architecting the network to make sure network partition events are as re=
ar as possible.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>R.</div></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On We=
d, Jul 24, 2019 at 4:12 PM Henk Smit &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all=
.nl">henk.ietf@xs4all.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello Robert,<br>
<br>
Tony brought up the example of a partioned network.<br>
But there are more examples.<br>
<br>
E.g. in a network there is a router with a 1000 neighbors.<br>
(When discussing distributed vs centralized flooding-topology<br>
=C2=A0 reduction algorithms, I&#39;ve been told these network designs exist=
).<br>
When such a router reboots/crashes/comes back up, all 1000 neighbors<br>
will create a new version of their own LSP. This causes a 1000 different<br=
>
LSPs to be flooded through the network at the same time. Impacting every<br=
>
router in the network.<br>
<br>
The case I was thinking of myself, was when a router in a large network<br>
boots. When it brings up a number of adjacencies, each neighbor will<br>
try to synchronize its LSPDB with the newly booted router. As the newly<br>
booted router will send emtpy CSNPs to each of its neighbors, each<br>
neighbor will start sending the full LSPDB. If such a network has 10k<br>
LSPs, and such a router has 100 neighbors, that router will receive 100 <br=
>
* 10k<br>
is 1 million LSPs. Having a faster and more efficient flooding <br>
transport,<br>
with flow-control, will make a reboot in such a topology less painful.<br>
<br>
(In that last case, creative use of the overload-bit could prevent <br>
black-holing<br>
or microloops while ISIS synchronizes its LSPDB after a reboot. Just <br>
like we<br>
used the overload-bit to solve the problem of slow convergence of BGP <br>
after<br>
a reboot, 22 years ago. I have no idea if there are any implementations <br=
>
that<br>
use the overload-bit to alleviate slow convergence of IS-IS after a <br>
reboot).<br>
<br>
henk.<br>
<br>
<br>
Robert Raszuk schreef op 2019-07-24 15:33:<br>
&gt; Hey Henk &amp; all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as long<=
br>
&gt; as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - is<=
br>
&gt; this really a problem ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link flap=
<br>
&gt; or node going down. We are talking about serious network partitioning<=
br>
&gt; which itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just<br=
>
&gt; considering absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, if<=
br>
&gt; we put things in the overall perspective is there really a problem to<=
br>
&gt; be solved in the first place ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking<br>
&gt; maybe not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thx,<br>
&gt; R.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lsr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:50:18 -0400
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To: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Cc: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>, lsr@ietf.org,  "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>,  "<stephane.litkowski@orange.com>" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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I'm under the impression the whole discussion got triggered by my rather
loose remark during the dinner based on, admittedly, my quite dated
implementation experience (with 2 disjoint distributed SPTs to reduce
flooding). I realized it seems not clearly spelled out on the thread. So to
hopefully clarify a bit: the scenario was not partition really, the
scenario was where I ended up in reduced graphs where rather large
"cliques" ended up being connected by either long'ish think chains (2 links
minimal cuts) which ended up "bottle-necking" the flooding on large changes
like redistribution/restart scenarios causing significant amount of LSPs
needed refresh from "left" to "right" through the bottlenecks. Transients
on the network became longer to the point we ended up (then) scrapping the
attempt after considering how we would bulild two trees _per flooding
source_ to really deal with it which seemed like overkill (and RIFT does
BTW but only because of known topology properties) and then setting
overload for which we couldn't figure out a good dynamic way (too short
dangerous, too long as bad). All that with standard flooding rates (beauty
of having mix-of-implementaitons requirements posed). Controlling the span
in distributed fashion is of course much harder than centralized fashion so
one has to be careful to compare apples-with-oranges here ...

that said pretty much out this thread

--- tony



On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:34 AM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Henk & all,
>
> If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as long as
> Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - is this
> really a problem ?
>
> Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link flap or
> node going down. We are talking about serious network partitioning which
> itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just considering
> absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, if we put things i=
n
> the overall perspective is there really a problem to be solved in the fir=
st
> place ?
>
> Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking maybe
> not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 3:18 PM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello Les,
>>
>> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote on 2019-07-24 07:17:
>>
>> > If you accept that, then it makes sense to look for the simplest way
>> > to do flow control and that is decidedly not from the RX side. (I
>> > expect Tony Li to disagree with that =F0=9F=98=8A =E2=80=93 but I have=
 already
>> > outlined why it is more complex to do it from the Rx side.)
>>
>> In your talk on Monday you called the idea in
>> draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed-01 "receiver driven flow
>> control".
>> You don't like that. You want "transmit based flow control".
>> You argued that you can do "transmit based flow control" on the sender
>> only.
>> Therefor your algorithm is merely a "local trick".
>> And "local tricks" don't need RFCs. I agree with that.
>> But I don't agree that your algorithm is just a "local trick"..
>>
>>
>> In your algorithm, a "sender" sends a number of LSPs to a receiver.
>> Without waiting for acks (PNSPs). Like in any sliding window protocol.
>> The sending router keeps an eye on the number of unacked LSPs.
>> And it determines how fast it can send more LSPs based on the current
>> number of unacked LSPs. Every time the sender receives a PSNP, it
>> knows the receiver got a number of LSPs, so it can increase its
>> send-window again, and then send more LSPs.
>> Correct ?
>>
>> I agree that the core idea of this algorithm makes sense.
>> After all, it looks a lot like TCP.
>> I believe the authors of draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed were
>> planning something like that for the next version of their draft.
>>
>>
>> However, I do not agree with the name "tx driven flow control".
>> I also do not agree that this algorithm is "a local trick".
>> Therefor I also do not think this algorithm doesn't need to be
>> documented (in an RFC).
>>
>> In your "tx based flow control", the sender (tx) sends LSPs at a rate
>> that is derived from the rate at which it receives PSNPs. Therefor
>> it is the sender of the PSNPs that sets the speed of transmission !
>> So it is still the receiver (of LSPs) that controls the flow control.
>> The name "tx based flow control" is a little misleading, imho.
>>
>>
>> It is important to realize that the success of your algorithm actually
>> depends on the behaviour of the receiver. How does it send PSNPs ?
>> Does it send one PSNP per received LSP ? Or does it pack multiple acks
>> in one PSNP ? Does it send a PSNP immediatly, or does it wait a short
>> time ? Does it try to fill a PSNP to the max (putting ~90 acks in one
>> PSNP) ? Does the receiver does something in between ? I don't think
>> the behaviour is specified exactly anywhere.
>>
>> I know about an IS-IS implementation from the nineties. When a router
>> would receive an LSP, it would a) set the SSN bit (for that
>> LSP/interface),
>> and b) start the psnp-timer for that interface (if not already running).
>> The psnp-timer would expire 2 seconds later. The router would then walk
>> the LSPDB, find all LSPs with the SSN-bit set for that interface. And
>> then build a PSNP with acks for all those LSPs. The result would be
>> that: a) the first PSNP would be send 2 seconds (+/- jitter) after
>> receiving the first LSP, and b) the PSNP would include ~66 acks. (As
>> a router receiving at full speed would have received 66 LSPs in 2
>> seconds).
>>
>> For your "tx based flow control" algorithm to work properly, this has
>> to change. The receiving router must send PSNPs more quickly and more
>> aggressively. The result would be that there will be less acks in each
>> PSNP. And thus more PSNPs will be sent.
>>
>> This makes us realize: in the current situation, if a router receives
>> a 1000 LSPs, and sends those LSPs to 64 neighbors, it would receive:
>> - the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus
>> - 1000/66 =3D 16 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor =3D 64 * 16 =3D 102=
4
>> PSNPs.
>> This makes a total of ~2000K PDUs received.
>>
>> If routers would send one PSNP per LSP (to have faster flow control),
>> then the router in this example would receive:
>> - the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus
>> - 1000 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor * 16 =3D 1600 PSNPs.
>> This makes a total of ~17000 PDUs received.
>>
>> The total number of PDUs received on this router would go from 2K PDUs
>> to 17K PDUs.
>>
>> Remember that the problem we're trying to solve here is to make sure
>> that routers do not get overrun on the receipt side with too many
>> packets too quickly. It seems an aggressive PSNP-scheme, to achieve
>> faster flow-control, is actually very counter-productive.
>>
>> Of course the algorithm can be tweaked. E.g. TCP sends one ack per
>> every 2 received segments (if I'm not mistaken). If we do that here,
>> the number of PDUs would go down from 17K to 9K PDUs. What do you
>> propose ? How do you want the feedback of PSNPs to be quick, while
>> maintaining an efficient packing of multiple acks per PSNP ?
>>
>>
>> In any case, the points I'm trying to make here:
>> *) Your algorithm is not sender-driven, but still receiver-driven.
>> *) Your algorithm changes/dictates behaviour both on sender and
>> receiver.
>> *) Interaction between a sender and a receiver is what we call a
>> protocol.
>>     If you want to make this work, especially in multi-vendor
>> environments,
>>     we need to document these algorithms. Aka in an RFC.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> henk.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m under the impression the whole discussion got=
 triggered by my rather loose remark during the dinner based on, admittedly=
, my quite dated implementation experience (with 2 disjoint distributed SPT=
s to reduce flooding). I realized it seems not clearly spelled out on the t=
hread. So to hopefully clarify a bit: the scenario was not partition really=
, the scenario was where I ended up in reduced graphs where rather large &q=
uot;cliques&quot; ended up being connected by either long&#39;ish think cha=
ins (2 links minimal cuts) which ended up &quot;bottle-necking&quot; the fl=
ooding on large changes like redistribution/restart scenarios causing signi=
ficant amount of LSPs needed refresh from &quot;left&quot; to &quot;right&q=
uot; through the bottlenecks. Transients on the network became longer to th=
e point we ended up (then) scrapping the attempt after considering how we w=
ould bulild two trees _per flooding source_ to really deal with it which se=
emed like overkill (and RIFT does BTW but only because of known topology pr=
operties) and then setting overload for which we couldn&#39;t figure out a =
good dynamic way (too short dangerous, too long as bad). All that with stan=
dard flooding rates (beauty of having mix-of-implementaitons requirements p=
osed). Controlling the span in distributed fashion is of course much harder=
 than centralized fashion so one has to be careful to compare apples-with-o=
ranges here ...<br></div><div><br></div><div>that said pretty much out this=
 thread <br></div><div><br></div><div>--- tony <br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0 </div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:34 AM Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">Hey Henk &amp; all,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as l=
ong as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - is t=
his really a problem ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
>Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link flap or =
node going down. We are talking about serious network partitioning which it=
self may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just considering abs=
olute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, if we put things in the=
 overall perspective is there really a problem to be solved in the first pl=
ace ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would ther=
e still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking maybe not for each =
LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">Thx,<br>R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><=
br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 3:18 PM Henk Smit &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:he=
nk.ietf@xs4all.nl" target=3D"_blank">henk.ietf@xs4all.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello Les,<br>
<br>
Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote on 2019-07-24 07:17:<br>
<br>
&gt; If you accept that, then it makes sense to look for the simplest way<b=
r>
&gt; to do flow control and that is decidedly not from the RX side. (I<br>
&gt; expect Tony Li to disagree with that =F0=9F=98=8A =E2=80=93 but I have=
 already<br>
&gt; outlined why it is more complex to do it from the Rx side.)<br>
<br>
In your talk on Monday you called the idea in<br>
draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed-01 &quot;receiver driven flow <br>
control&quot;.<br>
You don&#39;t like that. You want &quot;transmit based flow control&quot;.<=
br>
You argued that you can do &quot;transmit based flow control&quot; on the s=
ender <br>
only.<br>
Therefor your algorithm is merely a &quot;local trick&quot;.<br>
And &quot;local tricks&quot; don&#39;t need RFCs. I agree with that.<br>
But I don&#39;t agree that your algorithm is just a &quot;local trick&quot;=
..<br>
<br>
<br>
In your algorithm, a &quot;sender&quot; sends a number of LSPs to a receive=
r.<br>
Without waiting for acks (PNSPs). Like in any sliding window protocol.<br>
The sending router keeps an eye on the number of unacked LSPs.<br>
And it determines how fast it can send more LSPs based on the current<br>
number of unacked LSPs. Every time the sender receives a PSNP, it<br>
knows the receiver got a number of LSPs, so it can increase its<br>
send-window again, and then send more LSPs.<br>
Correct ?<br>
<br>
I agree that the core idea of this algorithm makes sense.<br>
After all, it looks a lot like TCP.<br>
I believe the authors of draft-decraene-lsr-isis-flooding-speed were<br>
planning something like that for the next version of their draft.<br>
<br>
<br>
However, I do not agree with the name &quot;tx driven flow control&quot;.<b=
r>
I also do not agree that this algorithm is &quot;a local trick&quot;.<br>
Therefor I also do not think this algorithm doesn&#39;t need to be<br>
documented (in an RFC).<br>
<br>
In your &quot;tx based flow control&quot;, the sender (tx) sends LSPs at a =
rate<br>
that is derived from the rate at which it receives PSNPs. Therefor<br>
it is the sender of the PSNPs that sets the speed of transmission !<br>
So it is still the receiver (of LSPs) that controls the flow control.<br>
The name &quot;tx based flow control&quot; is a little misleading, imho.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
It is important to realize that the success of your algorithm actually<br>
depends on the behaviour of the receiver. How does it send PSNPs ?<br>
Does it send one PSNP per received LSP ? Or does it pack multiple acks<br>
in one PSNP ? Does it send a PSNP immediatly, or does it wait a short<br>
time ? Does it try to fill a PSNP to the max (putting ~90 acks in one<br>
PSNP) ? Does the receiver does something in between ? I don&#39;t think<br>
the behaviour is specified exactly anywhere.<br>
<br>
I know about an IS-IS implementation from the nineties. When a router<br>
would receive an LSP, it would a) set the SSN bit (for that <br>
LSP/interface),<br>
and b) start the psnp-timer for that interface (if not already running).<br=
>
The psnp-timer would expire 2 seconds later. The router would then walk<br>
the LSPDB, find all LSPs with the SSN-bit set for that interface. And<br>
then build a PSNP with acks for all those LSPs. The result would be<br>
that: a) the first PSNP would be send 2 seconds (+/- jitter) after<br>
receiving the first LSP, and b) the PSNP would include ~66 acks. (As<br>
a router receiving at full speed would have received 66 LSPs in 2 <br>
seconds).<br>
<br>
For your &quot;tx based flow control&quot; algorithm to work properly, this=
 has<br>
to change. The receiving router must send PSNPs more quickly and more<br>
aggressively. The result would be that there will be less acks in each<br>
PSNP. And thus more PSNPs will be sent.<br>
<br>
This makes us realize: in the current situation, if a router receives<br>
a 1000 LSPs, and sends those LSPs to 64 neighbors, it would receive:<br>
- the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus<br>
- 1000/66 =3D 16 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor =3D 64 * 16 =3D 1024 <=
br>
PSNPs.<br>
This makes a total of ~2000K PDUs received.<br>
<br>
If routers would send one PSNP per LSP (to have faster flow control),<br>
then the router in this example would receive:<br>
- the 1000 LSPs from an upstream neighbor, plus<br>
- 1000 PSNPs from each downstream neighbor * 16 =3D 1600 PSNPs.<br>
This makes a total of ~17000 PDUs received.<br>
<br>
The total number of PDUs received on this router would go from 2K PDUs<br>
to 17K PDUs.<br>
<br>
Remember that the problem we&#39;re trying to solve here is to make sure<br=
>
that routers do not get overrun on the receipt side with too many<br>
packets too quickly. It seems an aggressive PSNP-scheme, to achieve<br>
faster flow-control, is actually very counter-productive.<br>
<br>
Of course the algorithm can be tweaked. E.g. TCP sends one ack per<br>
every 2 received segments (if I&#39;m not mistaken). If we do that here,<br=
>
the number of PDUs would go down from 17K to 9K PDUs. What do you<br>
propose ? How do you want the feedback of PSNPs to be quick, while<br>
maintaining an efficient packing of multiple acks per PSNP ?<br>
<br>
<br>
In any case, the points I&#39;m trying to make here:<br>
*) Your algorithm is not sender-driven, but still receiver-driven.<br>
*) Your algorithm changes/dictates behaviour both on sender and <br>
receiver.<br>
*) Interaction between a sender and a receiver is what we call a <br>
protocol.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you want to make this work, especially in multi-vendor <br=
>
environments,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 we need to document these algorithms. Aka in an RFC.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
henk.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lsr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lsr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Lsr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From nobody Wed Jul 24 08:40:52 2019
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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 17:40:36 +0200
From: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, lsr@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) schreef op 2019-07-23 22:29:

> It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of independent P2P
> “connections” – each of which can operate at a rate independent
> of the other.

Of course, if some routers are slow, convergence in parts of the network
might be slow. But as Stephane has already suggested, it is up to the
operators to determine if slower convergence in parts of their network
is acceptable. E.g. they can chose to put fast/expensive/new routers
in the center of their network, and move older routers to, or buy 
cheaper
routers for, the edges of their network.


But I have a question for you, Les:

During your talk, or maybe in older emails, I was under the impression
that you wanted to warn for another problem. Namely microloops.
I am not sure I understand correctly. So let me try to explain what
I understood. And please correct me if I am wrong.


Between the time a link breaks, and the first router(s) start to repair
the network, some traffic is dropped. Bad for that traffic of course. 
But
the network keeps functioning. Once all routers have re-converged and
adjusted their FIBs, everything is fine again.

In the time in between, between the first router adjusting its FIB and
the last router adjusting its FIB, you can have microloops. Microloops
multiply traffic. Which can cause the whole network to suffer of 
congestion.
Impacting traffic that did not (originally) go over the broken link.

So you want the transition from "wrong FIBs", that point over the broken
path, to "the final FIBs", where all traffic flows correctly, to have
that transition happen on all routers at once. That would make the 
network
go from "drop some traffic" to "forward over the new path" without a 
stage
of "some microloops" in between.

Am I correct ? Is this what you try to prevent ?
Is this why you want all flooding between routers go at the same speed ?

Thanks in advance,

henk.


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Cc: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>, Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>, Les Ginsberg <ginsberg@cisco.com>, lsr@ietf.org
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
References: <CAMj-N0LdaNBapVNisWs6cbH6RsHiXd-EMg6vRvO_U+UQsYVvXw@mail.gmail.com> <BYAPR11MB36382C89363202D1B5659614C1C70@BYAPR11MB3638.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <5841_1563943794_5D37E372_5841_105_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF924D9C373E@OPEXCAUBMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <BYAPR11MB363856BB026992DFBB3BB224C1C60@BYAPR11MB3638.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <8376a87831ffa6f5298c5122907c6e66@xs4all.nl> <CA+b+ER=LOZxoyoonPtC7VKppSNcQohGQdx+n8D3+LndnHdsofQ@mail.gmail.com> <cc806e622ad77ab73263cd9dc7eecad8@xs4all.nl> <CAOj+MMHjOQY3Rp3ovHWdmCPsqW=T2LFWJyp5wpcdZL04RshFpg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Robert,

Nothing has changed about the probability of network partitioning. That =
was simply a use case selected to motivate the discussion about flooding =
speed.

The entire discussion is almost orthogonal to dynamic flooding.  Let=E2=80=
=99s please take that out of the discussion.

Tony


> On Jul 24, 2019, at 7:38 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Yes indeed while I was reading your richly connected node restart =
problem use of overload-bit should be explored, proposed, implemented.=20=

>=20
> For the partition problem I have two general comments:=20
>=20
> a) If network partitions is likely to happen more often in the case of =
dynamic flooding perhaps as already said before we should increase the =
max number of occurrences given LSP is to arrive at flooding optimized =
node. Two may not be enough.
>=20
> b)  If protocol extensions will help to mitigate effects of network =
partition via much faster repair some folks may treat network partitions =
as normal operational model and instead of re-architecting the network =
to make sure network partition events are as rear as possible.=20
>=20
> Thx,
> R.
>=20
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 4:12 PM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl =
<mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Robert,
>=20
> Tony brought up the example of a partioned network.
> But there are more examples.
>=20
> E.g. in a network there is a router with a 1000 neighbors.
> (When discussing distributed vs centralized flooding-topology
>   reduction algorithms, I've been told these network designs exist).
> When such a router reboots/crashes/comes back up, all 1000 neighbors
> will create a new version of their own LSP. This causes a 1000 =
different
> LSPs to be flooded through the network at the same time. Impacting =
every
> router in the network.
>=20
> The case I was thinking of myself, was when a router in a large =
network
> boots. When it brings up a number of adjacencies, each neighbor will
> try to synchronize its LSPDB with the newly booted router. As the =
newly
> booted router will send emtpy CSNPs to each of its neighbors, each
> neighbor will start sending the full LSPDB. If such a network has 10k
> LSPs, and such a router has 100 neighbors, that router will receive =
100=20
> * 10k
> is 1 million LSPs. Having a faster and more efficient flooding=20
> transport,
> with flow-control, will make a reboot in such a topology less painful.
>=20
> (In that last case, creative use of the overload-bit could prevent=20
> black-holing
> or microloops while ISIS synchronizes its LSPDB after a reboot. Just=20=

> like we
> used the overload-bit to solve the problem of slow convergence of BGP=20=

> after
> a reboot, 22 years ago. I have no idea if there are any =
implementations=20
> that
> use the overload-bit to alleviate slow convergence of IS-IS after a=20
> reboot).
>=20
> henk.
>=20
>=20
> Robert Raszuk schreef op 2019-07-24 15:33:
> > Hey Henk & all,
> >=20
> > If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as =
long
> > as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - =
is
> > this really a problem ?
> >=20
> > Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link =
flap
> > or node going down. We are talking about serious network =
partitioning
> > which itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While just
> > considering absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, =
if
> > we put things in the overall perspective is there really a problem =
to
> > be solved in the first place ?
> >=20
> > Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster acking
> > maybe not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?
> >=20
> > Thx,
> > R.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org <mailto:Lsr@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr>


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Robert,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Nothing has changed about the =
probability of network partitioning. That was simply a use case selected =
to motivate the discussion about flooding speed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The entire discussion is almost =
orthogonal to dynamic flooding. &nbsp;Let=E2=80=99s please take that out =
of the discussion.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Tony</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul =
24, 2019, at 7:38 AM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" class=3D"">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Yes indeed while I was reading your richly connected node =
restart problem use of overload-bit should be explored, proposed, =
implemented.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">For the partition problem I have two general =
comments:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">a) If network partitions is likely to happen more often in =
the case of dynamic flooding perhaps as already said before we should =
increase the max number of occurrences given LSP is to arrive at =
flooding optimized node. Two may not be enough.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">b)&nbsp; If protocol extensions will =
help to mitigate effects of network partition via much faster repair =
some folks may treat network partitions as normal operational model and =
instead of re-architecting the network to make sure network partition =
events are as rear as possible.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thx,</div><div =
class=3D"">R.</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 4:12 PM Henk =
Smit &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl" =
class=3D"">henk.ietf@xs4all.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br class=3D"">
Hello Robert,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Tony brought up the example of a partioned network.<br class=3D"">
But there are more examples.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
E.g. in a network there is a router with a 1000 neighbors.<br class=3D"">
(When discussing distributed vs centralized flooding-topology<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; reduction algorithms, I've been told these network designs =
exist).<br class=3D"">
When such a router reboots/crashes/comes back up, all 1000 neighbors<br =
class=3D"">
will create a new version of their own LSP. This causes a 1000 =
different<br class=3D"">
LSPs to be flooded through the network at the same time. Impacting =
every<br class=3D"">
router in the network.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The case I was thinking of myself, was when a router in a large =
network<br class=3D"">
boots. When it brings up a number of adjacencies, each neighbor will<br =
class=3D"">
try to synchronize its LSPDB with the newly booted router. As the =
newly<br class=3D"">
booted router will send emtpy CSNPs to each of its neighbors, each<br =
class=3D"">
neighbor will start sending the full LSPDB. If such a network has 10k<br =
class=3D"">
LSPs, and such a router has 100 neighbors, that router will receive 100 =
<br class=3D"">
* 10k<br class=3D"">
is 1 million LSPs. Having a faster and more efficient flooding <br =
class=3D"">
transport,<br class=3D"">
with flow-control, will make a reboot in such a topology less =
painful.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
(In that last case, creative use of the overload-bit could prevent <br =
class=3D"">
black-holing<br class=3D"">
or microloops while ISIS synchronizes its LSPDB after a reboot. Just <br =
class=3D"">
like we<br class=3D"">
used the overload-bit to solve the problem of slow convergence of BGP =
<br class=3D"">
after<br class=3D"">
a reboot, 22 years ago. I have no idea if there are any implementations =
<br class=3D"">
that<br class=3D"">
use the overload-bit to alleviate slow convergence of IS-IS after a <br =
class=3D"">
reboot).<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
henk.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Robert Raszuk schreef op 2019-07-24 15:33:<br class=3D"">
&gt; Hey Henk &amp; all,<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; If acks for 1000 LSPs take 16 PSNPs (max 66 per PSNP) or even as =
long<br class=3D"">
&gt; as Tony mentioned the full flooding as Tony said may take 33 sec - =
is<br class=3D"">
&gt; this really a problem ?<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Remember we are not talking about protocol convergence after link =
flap<br class=3D"">
&gt; or node going down. We are talking about serious network =
partitioning<br class=3D"">
&gt; which itself may have lasted for minutes, hours or days. While =
just<br class=3D"">
&gt; considering absolute numbers yelds desire to go faster and faster, =
if<br class=3D"">
&gt; we put things in the overall perspective is there really a problem =
to<br class=3D"">
&gt; be solved in the first place ?<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Would there still be a problem if LSR WG recommends faster =
acking<br class=3D"">
&gt; maybe not for each LSP but for say 20 or 30 max ?<br class=3D"">
&gt; <br class=3D"">
&gt; Thx,<br class=3D"">
&gt; R.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Lsr mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Lsr@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Robert,

> The second part of the question was really about at what layer it =
makes most sense to provide this control loop.=20


To me, the obvious thing to do is to make minor revisions to the =
protocol. We need to:

- Add a TLV so that the receiver can provide feedback. IMHO, this should =
be in IIH=E2=80=99s and PSNPs.

- Add text to modify the transmitters behavior.  In the presence of this =
TLV, the transmitter is released from 10589 compliance and may transmit =
(details TBD).

- Add text to modify the receivers behavior.  If you support this =
feature, then add the TLV, send PSNPs more frequently (rate & trigger =
TBD).


> Options seems to be:=20
>=20
> * Invent new or use existing link layer flow control (IEEE)
> * Reuse existing transport layer (TCP)=20
> * App layer (QUIC or QUIC like)


All of these seem like massive overkill.


> I guess it would be useful to up front list on what type of media this =
must be supported as it may change the game drastically:=20
>=20
> * directly connected fiber p2p=20
> * p2mp (via switch)
> * p2p over encapsulation=20
> etc=E2=80=A6


All of the above, plus legacy media too.  No reason why this doesn=E2=80=99=
t apply to 100BaseT.  Bandwidth is not the constraint.

Tony



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Robert,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The =
second part of the question was really about at what layer it makes most =
sense to provide this control =
loop.&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>To me, the obvious thing =
to do is to make minor revisions to the protocol. We need =
to:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>- Add a TLV so that the receiver =
can provide feedback. IMHO, this should be in IIH=E2=80=99s and =
PSNPs.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>- Add text to modify the =
transmitters behavior. &nbsp;In the presence of this TLV, the =
transmitter is released from 10589 compliance and may transmit (details =
TBD).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>- Add text to modify the =
receivers behavior. &nbsp;If you support this feature, then add the TLV, =
send PSNPs more frequently (rate &amp; trigger TBD).</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Options =
seems to be:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* =
Invent new or use existing link layer flow control (IEEE)</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* Reuse =
existing transport layer (TCP)&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* App =
layer (QUIC or QUIC =
like)</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>All of these seem like =
massive overkill.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I guess =
it would be useful to up front list on what type of media this must be =
supported as it may change the game drastically:&nbsp;</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* =
directly connected fiber p2p&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* p2mp =
(via switch)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">* p2p =
over encapsulation&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">etc=E2=80=
=A6</div></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>All of the above, plus legacy media too. &nbsp;No =
reason why this doesn=E2=80=99t apply to 100BaseT. &nbsp;Bandwidth is =
not the constraint.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Tony</div><div><br=
 class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 20:33:21 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+b+ERk5VYja=ND9BQRmT2yCPzs-CS37JEhdbtVe_qtt4rBtgw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: "tony.li@tony.li" <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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*[Les:] At the cost of convergence. Not a good tradeoff.*

Hi Les - why at the cost of convergence ? No one as I see it is proposing
the same rate to every peer. Quite contrary -- per peer rate of flooding.
So if you keep flooding high speed on fast links the convergence will not
be any slower with flow control.

Thx,
R.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 8:28 PM Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

> Tony =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> Inline.
>
>
>
> *From:* Tony Li <tony1athome@gmail.com> *On Behalf Of *tony.li@tony.li
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 10:39 PM
> *To:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* lsr@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Les,
>
>
>
> I also think we all agree on the goal - which is to flood significantly
> faster than many implementations do today to handle deployments like the
> case you mention below.
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree with that, but you haven=E2=80=99t responded to the goal that I p=
roposed:
> keep the receiver processing PDUs.
>
>
>
> *[Les:] My goals are:*
>
>
>
> *Optimize convergence.*
>
> *Minimize complexity.*
>
>
>
> *Optimizing the throughput through a slow receiver is pretty low on my
> list because the ROI is low.*
>
>
>
> Beyond this point, I have a different perspective.
>
>
>
> As network-wide convergence depends upon fast propagation of LSP changes =
=E2=80=93
> which in turn requires consistent flooding rates on all interfaces enable=
d
> for flooding =E2=80=93 a properly provisioned network MUST be able to sus=
tain a
> consistent flooding rate or the operation of the network will suffer. We
> therefore need to view flow control issues as indicative of a problem.
>
>
>
> It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of independent P2P
> =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can operate at a ra=
te independent of the
> other.
>
>
>
> If we can agree on this, then I believe we will have placed the flow
> control problem in its proper perspective =E2=80=93 in which case it will=
 become
> easier to agree on the best way to implement flow control.
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree that we want network wide convergence.  However, I disagree that
> the right thing to do is to uniformly flood at the same rate on all
> interfaces.
>
>
>
> First, the rate that you select might be too fast for one neighbor and no=
t
> for the others.  Real flow control would help address this.
>
>
>
> *[Les:] At the cost of convergence. Not a good tradeoff.*
>
> *I am arguing that we do want to flood at the same rate on all interfaces
> used for flooding. When we cannot, flow control does not help with
> convergence. It may decrease some wasted bandwidth =E2=80=93 but as we al=
l agree
> that bandwidth isn=E2=80=99t a significant limitation this isn=E2=80=99t =
a great concern.*
>
>
>
> *The same reasons that drive us to use same SPF delay and LSP Generation
> timers on all routers also apply to flooding rate.*
>
>
>
> Second, all flooding paths are not created equal.  You do not know, a
> priori, how to flood to get uniform network wide propagation.  The varian=
ce
> in CPU loading alone is going to cause different routers to flood at
> different rates, and so it may actaully be optimal to flood quickly down
> one path, knowing that the data will reach the other end of the network a=
nd
> flood back before the slow CPU can absorb and flood.
>
>
>
> *[Les:] I do not see how flow control improves things.*
>
> *If you have alternate flooding paths around the slow link(s) this argues
> more that you should not have the slow link in the flooding topology in t=
he
> first place. But this heads off topic =E2=80=93 I think we agree that dyn=
amic
> flooding is a separate discussion which we don=E2=80=99t want to bring in=
to this
> thread.*
>
>
>
> Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU speed in the entire
> network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and absurdly slow even
> with that.
>
>
>
> *[Les:] Never advocated that =E2=80=93 please do not put those words in m=
y mouth.*
>
>
>
> *   Les*
>
>
>
>
>
> Tony
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>

--000000000000ba53ee058e718bad
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><b style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i>[Les:] At the cost of conver=
gence. Not a good tradeoff.</i></b>=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Hi Les - why at the cost of converg=
ence ? No one as I see it is proposing the same rate to every peer. Quite c=
ontrary -- per peer rate of flooding. So if you keep flooding high speed on=
 fast links the convergence will not be any slower with flow control.=C2=A0=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">T=
hx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">R.</div></div></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at=
 8:28 PM Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">=
ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5377758609973410298WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tony =E2=80=93<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tony Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tony1atho=
me@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tony1athome@gmail.com</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf =
Of
</b><a href=3D"mailto:tony.li@tony.li" target=3D"_blank">tony.li@tony.li</a=
><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 10:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Les,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also think we all agree on the goal - which is to =
flood significantly faster than many implementations do today to handle dep=
loyments like the case you mention below.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree with that, but you haven=E2=80=99t responded=
 to the goal that I proposed: keep the receiver processing PDUs.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[Les:] My goals are:<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Optimize convergence.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Minimize complexity.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Optimizing the throughput through a slow recei=
ver is pretty low on my list because the ROI is low.<u></u><u></u></i></b><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Beyond this point, I have a different perspective.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As network-wide convergence depends upon fast propag=
ation of LSP changes =E2=80=93 which in turn requires consistent flooding r=
ates on all interfaces enabled for flooding =E2=80=93 a properly provisione=
d network MUST be able to sustain a consistent flooding
 rate or the operation of the network will suffer. We therefore need to vie=
w flow control issues as indicative of a problem.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is a mistake to equate LSP flooding with a set of=
 independent P2P =E2=80=9Cconnections=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 each of which can =
operate at a rate independent of the other.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we can agree on this, then I believe we will have=
 placed the flow control problem in its proper perspective =E2=80=93 in whi=
ch case it will become easier to agree on the best way to implement flow co=
ntrol.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that we want network wide convergence.=C2=A0=
 However, I disagree that the right thing to do is to uniformly flood at th=
e same rate on all interfaces.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, the rate that you select might be too fast fo=
r one neighbor and not for the others.=C2=A0 Real flow control would help a=
ddress this.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[Les:] At the cost of convergence. Not a good =
tradeoff.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>I am arguing that we do want to flood at the s=
ame rate on all interfaces used for flooding. When we cannot, flow control =
does not help with convergence. It may decrease some wasted bandwidth =E2=
=80=93 but as we all agree that bandwidth isn=E2=80=99t
 a significant limitation this isn=E2=80=99t a great concern.<u></u><u></u>=
</i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>The same reasons that drive us to use same SPF=
 delay and LSP Generation timers on all routers also apply to flooding rate=
.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, all flooding paths are not created equal.=C2=
=A0 You do not know, a priori, how to flood to get uniform network wide pro=
pagation.=C2=A0 The variance in CPU loading alone is going to cause differe=
nt routers to flood at different rates, and
 so it may actaully be optimal to flood quickly down one path, knowing that=
 the data will reach the other end of the network and flood back before the=
 slow CPU can absorb and flood.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[Les:] I do not see how flow control improves =
things.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>If you have alternate flooding paths around th=
e slow link(s) this argues more that you should not have the slow link in t=
he flooding topology in the first place. But this heads off topic =E2=80=93=
 I think we agree that dynamic flooding is
 a separate discussion which we don=E2=80=99t want to bring into this threa=
d.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU sp=
eed in the entire network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and ab=
surdly slow even with that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>[Les:] Never advocated that =E2=80=93 please d=
o not put those words in my mouth.<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Les<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tony<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

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</blockquote></div>

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "tony.li@tony.li" <tony.li@tony.li>
CC: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "henk.ietf@xs4all.nl" <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
CC: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,


> Optimizing the throughput through a slow receiver is pretty low on my =
list because the ROI is low.


Ok, I disagree. The slow receiver is the critical path to convergence.  =
Only when the slow receiver has absorbed all changes and SPFed do we =
have convergence.


> First, the rate that you select might be too fast for one neighbor and =
not for the others.  Real flow control would help address this.
> =20
> [Les:] At the cost of convergence. Not a good tradeoff.
> I am arguing that we do want to flood at the same rate on all =
interfaces used for flooding. When we cannot, flow control does not help =
with convergence. It may decrease some wasted bandwidth =E2=80=93 but as =
we all agree that bandwidth isn=E2=80=99t a significant limitation this =
isn=E2=80=99t a great concern.


Rate limiting flooding delays convergence.  Please consider the =
following topology:


1 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 2 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 3
|        |        |
|        |        |
4 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 5 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 6
|        |        |
|        |        |
7 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 8 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 9


Suppose that we have 1000 LSPs injected at router 1.  Suppose further =
that router 2 runs at half the rate of router 4.  [How router 1 knows =
this requires $DEITY and is out of scope for the moment.]

Router 1 now floods at the optimal rate for router 2.  Router 1 uses =
that same rate to flood to router 4.  Suppose that it takes time T for =
this to complete.

When does the network converge?

Option 1: All nodes use the same flooding rate.

Router 2 will flood to router 3 concurrent with receiving updates from =
router 1. Thus, router 3 will receive all updates in time T + delta, =
where delta is router 2=E2=80=99s processing time.  For now, let=E2=80=99s=
 approximate delta as zero.

Similarly, all routers will use the same rate, so router 4 will flood to =
7 in time T + delta, and so on, with router 9 receiving everything in =
time T + 3 * delta.

Assuming no nodes SPF during the process, the network converges nearly =
simultaneously in about time T.

Option 2: We flood a bit faster where we can.

Suppose that router 1 now floods at the full rate to router 4.  The full =
update now takes time T/2.  Because all of the other nodes in the =
network are fast, router 4 floods in time T/2 + delta to nodes 5 and 7.  =
Carrying this forward, router 9 gets a full update in time T/2 + 3 * =
delta.  Even router 3 has full updates in T/2 + 3 * delta.

With the exception of node 2, the network has converged in half the =
time.  Even node 2 converges in time T.

Key points:=20

1) Yes, the slow node delays convergence and causes micro-loops as =
everyone around it SPFs.  The point here (and I think you agree) is that =
slow nodes need to be upgraded.

2) There is no way for us to know how fast a node can go without some =
form of flow control, other than to go absurdly slowly.

3) There are many folks who want to converge quickly.  It is mission =
critical for them.  They will address slow nodes. They will not accept =
pessimal timing to avoid micro-loops.


> [Les:] I do not see how flow control improves things.


Flow control allows the transmitter to transmit at the optimal rate for =
the receiver.


> Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU speed in the entire =
network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and absurdly slow =
even with that.
> =20
> [Les:] Never advocated that =E2=80=93 please do not put those words in =
my mouth.


How is that different than what you=E2=80=99ve proposed?  Router 1 can =
only flood at the rate that it gets PSNPs from router 2.  That paces its =
flooding to router 4.  Following that logic, you somehow want router 4 =
to run at the same rate, forcing a uniformly slow rate.

Tony




--Apple-Mail=_C6447CC6-D1D6-429C-8326-8FB127CB97F0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Les,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D"">Optimizing the throughput through a slow receiver is pretty =
low on my list because the ROI is =
low.</i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Ok, I disagree. The =
slow receiver is the critical path to convergence. &nbsp;Only when the =
slow receiver has absorbed all changes and SPFed do we have =
convergence.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">First, the rate that you select might be too fast for one =
neighbor and not for the others. &nbsp;Real flow control would help =
address this.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] At =
the cost of convergence. Not a good tradeoff.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">I am arguing that we do want to flood at the =
same rate on all interfaces used for flooding. When we cannot, flow =
control does not help with convergence. It may decrease some wasted =
bandwidth =E2=80=93 but as we all agree that bandwidth isn=E2=80=99t a =
significant limitation this isn=E2=80=99t a great =
concern.</i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Rate limiting flooding =
delays convergence. &nbsp;Please consider the following =
topology:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"5" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D"">1 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 2 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94 3</span></font></div><div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; =
font-size: x-large;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: x-large;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span></div><div =
class=3D""><div><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"5" class=3D"">4 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 5 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 =
6</font></div></div><div class=3D""><div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Courier; font-size: x-large;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: x-large;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span></div><div =
class=3D""><div><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"5" class=3D"">7 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 8 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 =
9</font></div></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div>Suppose that we have 1000 LSPs =
injected at router 1. &nbsp;Suppose further that router 2 runs at half =
the rate of router 4. &nbsp;[How router 1 knows this requires $DEITY and =
is out of scope for the moment.]</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Router 1 now floods at the optimal rate for router =
2. &nbsp;Router 1 uses that same rate to flood to router 4. =
&nbsp;Suppose that it takes time T for this to complete.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>When does the network converge?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Option 1: All nodes use the same flooding =
rate.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Router 2 will flood to router =
3 concurrent with receiving updates from router 1. Thus, router 3 will =
receive all updates in time T + delta, where delta is router 2=E2=80=99s =
processing time. &nbsp;For now, let=E2=80=99s approximate delta as =
zero.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Similarly, all routers will =
use the same rate, so router 4 will flood to 7 in time T + delta, and so =
on, with router 9 receiving everything in time T + 3 * =
delta.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Assuming no nodes SPF during =
the process, the network converges nearly simultaneously in about time =
T.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Option 2: We flood a bit faster =
where we can.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Suppose that router 1 =
now floods at the full rate to router 4. &nbsp;The full update now takes =
time T/2. &nbsp;Because all of the other nodes in the network are fast, =
router 4 floods in time T/2 + delta to nodes 5 and 7. &nbsp;Carrying =
this forward, router 9 gets a full update in time T/2 + 3 * delta. =
&nbsp;Even router 3 has full updates in T/2 + 3 * delta.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>With the exception of node 2, the network has =
converged in half the time. &nbsp;Even node 2 converges in time =
T.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Key points:&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>1) Yes, the slow node delays convergence and =
causes micro-loops as everyone around it SPFs. &nbsp;The point here (and =
I think you agree) is that slow nodes need to be upgraded.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>2) There is no way for us to know how fast a node =
can go without some form of flow control, other than to go absurdly =
slowly.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>3) There are many folks who =
want to converge quickly. &nbsp;It is mission critical for them. =
&nbsp;They will address slow nodes. They will not accept pessimal timing =
to avoid micro-loops.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] I do not see how flow =
control improves =
things.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>Flow control allows the =
transmitter to transmit at the optimal rate for the =
receiver.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU speed in =
the entire network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and =
absurdly slow even with that.</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] Never advocated that =E2=80=93 please do =
not put those words in my mouth.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>How is that different =
than what you=E2=80=99ve proposed? &nbsp;Router 1 can only flood at the =
rate that it gets PSNPs from router 2. &nbsp;That paces its flooding to =
router 4. &nbsp;Following that logic, you somehow want router 4 to run =
at the same rate, forcing a uniformly slow rate.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Tony</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
CC: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "tony.li@tony.li" <tony.li@tony.li>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:31:12 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "tony.li@tony.li" <tony.li@tony.li>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,

Ok, let me reset.  I=E2=80=99ve re-read your slides.
=20
I don=E2=80=99t see anything in there about changing the PSNP signaling =
rate.  =46rom your comments to Henk, I infer that you=E2=80=99re open to =
changing that rate.

As soon as you do that, you=E2=80=99re now providing receiver based =
feedback and creating flow control.  You=E2=80=99re accepting that rates =
will vary per interface.

What you=E2=80=99re NOT doing is providing information about the =
receiver=E2=80=99s input queue and requested input rate.  With less =
information, the transmitter can only approximate the optimal rate and =
your proposal seems like a Newton=E2=80=99s method approach to =
determining that rate. =20

Your proposal depends on two constants: Usafe and Umax.  How do you know =
what those are?

That=E2=80=99s information about the receiver.=20

I infer that you propose to hard code some conservative values for =
these.  In my mind, that implies that you will be going more slowly than =
you could if you had more accurate data.  And pretty much what we=E2=80=99=
re proposing is that the receiver advertise this type of information so =
that we don=E2=80=99t have to assume the worst case.  This also is nice =
because an implementation only has to know about it=E2=80=99s own =
capabilities.

Tony


> On Jul 24, 2019, at 12:31 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
<ginsberg@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Tony =E2=80=93
> =20
> I have NEVER proposed that the flooding rate be determined by the =
slowest node.
> Quite the opposite.
> =20
> Flooding rate should be based on the target convergence time and =
should be aggressive because most topology changes involve much fewer =
than 1000 LSPs (arbitrary number). So even w a slow node fast flooding =
won=E2=80=99t be an issue for the vast majority of changes.
> =20
> When we get a topology change with enough LSPs to expose the slowest =
node limitations we (in decreasing order of importance):
> =20
> 1)Continue to flood fast to those nodes/links which can handle it
> 2)Report the slow node to the operator (so they can address the =
limitation)
> 3)Do what we can to limit the overload on the slow node/link
> =20
> Hope this helps.
> =20
>    Les
> =20
> =20
> From: Tony Li <tony1athome@gmail.com <mailto:tony1athome@gmail.com>> =
On Behalf Of tony.li@tony.li <mailto:tony.li@tony.li>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 12:04 PM
> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com =
<mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com>>
> Cc: lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
> =20
> =20
> Les,
> =20
> =20
> Optimizing the throughput through a slow receiver is pretty low on my =
list because the ROI is low.
> =20
> =20
> Ok, I disagree. The slow receiver is the critical path to convergence. =
 Only when the slow receiver has absorbed all changes and SPFed do we =
have convergence.
> =20
> =20
> First, the rate that you select might be too fast for one neighbor and =
not for the others.  Real flow control would help address this.
> =20
> [Les:] At the cost of convergence. Not a good tradeoff.
> I am arguing that we do want to flood at the same rate on all =
interfaces used for flooding. When we cannot, flow control does not help =
with convergence. It may decrease some wasted bandwidth =E2=80=93 but as =
we all agree that bandwidth isn=E2=80=99t a significant limitation this =
isn=E2=80=99t a great concern.
> =20
> =20
> Rate limiting flooding delays convergence.  Please consider the =
following topology:
> =20
> =20
> 1 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 2 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 3
> |        |        |
> |        |        |
> 4 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 5 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 6
> |        |        |
> |        |        |
> 7 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 8 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 9
> =20
> =20
> Suppose that we have 1000 LSPs injected at router 1.  Suppose further =
that router 2 runs at half the rate of router 4.  [How router 1 knows =
this requires $DEITY and is out of scope for the moment.]
> =20
> Router 1 now floods at the optimal rate for router 2.  Router 1 uses =
that same rate to flood to router 4.  Suppose that it takes time T for =
this to complete.
> =20
> When does the network converge?
> =20
> Option 1: All nodes use the same flooding rate.
> =20
> Router 2 will flood to router 3 concurrent with receiving updates from =
router 1. Thus, router 3 will receive all updates in time T + delta, =
where delta is router 2=E2=80=99s processing time.  For now, let=E2=80=99s=
 approximate delta as zero.
> =20
> Similarly, all routers will use the same rate, so router 4 will flood =
to 7 in time T + delta, and so on, with router 9 receiving everything in =
time T + 3 * delta.
> =20
> Assuming no nodes SPF during the process, the network converges nearly =
simultaneously in about time T.
> =20
> Option 2: We flood a bit faster where we can.
> =20
> Suppose that router 1 now floods at the full rate to router 4.  The =
full update now takes time T/2.  Because all of the other nodes in the =
network are fast, router 4 floods in time T/2 + delta to nodes 5 and 7.  =
Carrying this forward, router 9 gets a full update in time T/2 + 3 * =
delta.  Even router 3 has full updates in T/2 + 3 * delta.
> =20
> With the exception of node 2, the network has converged in half the =
time.  Even node 2 converges in time T.
> =20
> Key points:=20
> =20
> 1) Yes, the slow node delays convergence and causes micro-loops as =
everyone around it SPFs.  The point here (and I think you agree) is that =
slow nodes need to be upgraded.
> =20
> 2) There is no way for us to know how fast a node can go without some =
form of flow control, other than to go absurdly slowly.
> =20
> 3) There are many folks who want to converge quickly.  It is mission =
critical for them.  They will address slow nodes. They will not accept =
pessimal timing to avoid micro-loops.
> =20
>=20
>=20
> [Les:] I do not see how flow control improves things.
> =20
> =20
> Flow control allows the transmitter to transmit at the optimal rate =
for the receiver.
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Dropping down to the least common denominator CPU speed in the entire =
network is going to be undoable without an oracle, and absurdly slow =
even with that.
> =20
> [Les:] Never advocated that =E2=80=93 please do not put those words in =
my mouth.
> =20
> =20
> How is that different than what you=E2=80=99ve proposed?  Router 1 can =
only flood at the rate that it gets PSNPs from router 2.  That paces its =
flooding to router 4.  Following that logic, you somehow want router 4 =
to run at the same rate, forcing a uniformly slow rate.
> =20
> Tony


--Apple-Mail=_37175BB5-0B2A-4231-B4DC-E6958BC7A8A9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Les,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Ok, =
let me reset. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99ve re-read your slides.</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t see anything in =
there about changing the PSNP signaling rate. &nbsp;=46rom your comments =
to Henk, I infer that you=E2=80=99re open to changing that =
rate.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As soon =
as you do that, you=E2=80=99re now providing receiver based feedback and =
creating flow control. &nbsp;You=E2=80=99re accepting that rates will =
vary per interface.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">What you=E2=80=99re NOT doing is providing information about =
the receiver=E2=80=99s input queue and requested input rate. &nbsp;With =
less information, the transmitter can only approximate the optimal rate =
and your proposal seems like a Newton=E2=80=99s method approach to =
determining that rate. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your proposal depends on two constants: =
Usafe and Umax. &nbsp;How do you know what those are?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s =
information about the receiver.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I infer that you propose to hard code =
some conservative values for these. &nbsp;In my mind, that implies that =
you will be going more slowly than you could if you had more accurate =
data. &nbsp;And pretty much what we=E2=80=99re proposing is that the =
receiver advertise this type of information so that we don=E2=80=99t =
have to assume the worst case. &nbsp;This also is nice because an =
implementation only has to know about it=E2=80=99s own =
capabilities.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Tony</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 24, 2019, at 12:31 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Tony =
=E2=80=93<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I have NEVER proposed that the flooding rate be determined by =
the slowest node.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Quite the opposite.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Flooding rate should be based on the =
target convergence time and should be aggressive because most topology =
changes involve much fewer than 1000 LSPs (arbitrary number). So even w =
a slow node fast flooding won=E2=80=99t be an issue for the vast =
majority of changes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">When we get a topology change with enough LSPs to expose the =
slowest node limitations we (in decreasing order of importance):<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">1)Continue =
to flood fast to those nodes/links which can handle it<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2)Report =
the slow node to the operator (so they can address the limitation)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3)Do what =
we can to limit the overload on the slow node/link<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hope this =
helps.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tony Li &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tony1athome@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tony1athome@gmail.com</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:tony.li@tony.li" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">tony.li@tony.li</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, July 24, 2019 =
12:04 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ginsberg@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">lsr@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow =
control for flooding<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Les,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">Optimizing the throughput through a slow =
receiver is pretty low on my list because the ROI is low.</i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ok, I disagree. The slow receiver is =
the critical path to convergence. &nbsp;Only when the slow receiver has =
absorbed all changes and SPFed do we have convergence.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">First, =
the rate that you select might be too fast for one neighbor and not for =
the others. &nbsp;Real flow control would help address this.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] At the cost of =
convergence. Not a good tradeoff.</i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">I am arguing that we do want to =
flood at the same rate on all interfaces used for flooding. When we =
cannot, flow control does not help with convergence. It may decrease =
some wasted bandwidth =E2=80=93 but as we all agree that bandwidth =
isn=E2=80=99t a significant limitation this isn=E2=80=99t a great =
concern.</i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Rate limiting flooding delays =
convergence. &nbsp;Please consider the following topology:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 18pt; font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">1 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 2 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 3</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 24pt; =
font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
24pt; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 18pt; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">4 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 5 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 6</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 24pt; =
font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
24pt; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 18pt; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">7 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 8 =
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 9</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Suppose that we have 1000 LSPs injected =
at router 1. &nbsp;Suppose further that router 2 runs at half the rate =
of router 4. &nbsp;[How router 1 knows this requires $DEITY and is out =
of scope for the moment.]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Router 1 now floods at the optimal rate for router 2. =
&nbsp;Router 1 uses that same rate to flood to router 4. &nbsp;Suppose =
that it takes time T for this to complete.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">When does the network converge?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Option 1: All nodes use the same =
flooding rate.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Router 2 will flood to router 3 concurrent with receiving =
updates from router 1. Thus, router 3 will receive all updates in time T =
+ delta, where delta is router 2=E2=80=99s processing time. &nbsp;For =
now, let=E2=80=99s approximate delta as zero.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Similarly, all routers will use the =
same rate, so router 4 will flood to 7 in time T + delta, and so on, =
with router 9 receiving everything in time T + 3 * delta.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Assuming no nodes SPF during the =
process, the network converges nearly simultaneously in about time =
T.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Option 2: We flood a bit faster where =
we can.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Suppose that router 1 now floods at the full rate to router =
4. &nbsp;The full update now takes time T/2. &nbsp;Because all of the =
other nodes in the network are fast, router 4 floods in time T/2 + delta =
to nodes 5 and 7. &nbsp;Carrying this forward, router 9 gets a full =
update in time T/2 + 3 * delta. &nbsp;Even router 3 has full updates in =
T/2 + 3 * delta.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">With the exception of node 2, the network has converged in =
half the time. &nbsp;Even node 2 converges in time T.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Key points:&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">1) Yes, the slow node delays =
convergence and causes micro-loops as everyone around it SPFs. &nbsp;The =
point here (and I think you agree) is that slow nodes need to be =
upgraded.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">2) There is no way for us to know how fast a node can go =
without some form of flow control, other than to go absurdly slowly.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3) There are many folks who want to =
converge quickly. &nbsp;It is mission critical for them. &nbsp;They will =
address slow nodes. They will not accept pessimal timing to avoid =
micro-loops.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: =
0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] I do =
not see how flow control improves things.</i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Flow control allows the transmitter to transmit at the =
optimal rate for the receiver.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: =
0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Dropping down to the least common =
denominator CPU speed in the entire network is going to be undoable =
without an oracle, and absurdly slow even with that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] Never advocated that =E2=80=93=
 please do not put those words in my mouth.</i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">How is that different than what =
you=E2=80=99ve proposed? &nbsp;Router 1 can only flood at the rate that =
it gets PSNPs from router 2. &nbsp;That paces its flooding to router 4. =
&nbsp;Following that logic, you somehow want router 4 to run at the same =
rate, forcing a uniformly slow rate.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Tony</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "tony.li@tony.li" <tony.li@tony.li>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
Thread-Index: AQHVQVt0dc+yhfYADEyrMMJ609g9uKbYO7RggAEF1QCAANNGsIAADZ+AgAAGNyCAAAs+AIAACkJg
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 20:56:22 +0000
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To: Les Ginsberg <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,


> This thread reminds me of how easy it is to miscommunicate =E2=80=93 =
and I bear some of the responsibility for that.


Communications takes two.  The receiver must also be focused on the =
input. My bad too.


> I don=E2=80=99t see anything in there about changing the PSNP =
signaling rate.  =46rom your comments to Henk, I infer that you=E2=80=99re=
 open to changing that rate.
> [Les:] The proposal in the slides is simply an example/straw man. I =
did not spend a lot of time on it =E2=80=93 in fact in the first draft =
of the slides I did not even provide a proposal. It certainly needs more =
refinement.
> It is meant only to illustrate how we can do things w/o requiring the =
receive side to do calculations for which the raw data may be difficult =
and w/o requiring new TLVs.


Understood.  The difficulty in implementation is not our primary concern =
and something of a chicken and egg situation: if we do not ask to get =
the data about the input critical path, we will not get it.

We=E2=80=99ve had a very similar situation with IP option handling: IP =
header options used to be very, very rare, so the first generation of =
forwarding ASICs passed off options for software-based forwarding. This =
made options slow.  IPv6 designers then decided that options were slow, =
so they weren=E2=80=99t going to use options.  ;-)

If we need data from the platform silicon, then we should ask for it.  =
We=E2=80=99re not going to get it if we don=E2=80=99t ask.  And without =
specifics about what=E2=80=99s going on, we=E2=80=99re not going to make =
good approximations to the optimal rate.


> As soon as you do that, you=E2=80=99re now providing receiver based =
feedback and creating flow control.  You=E2=80=99re accepting that rates =
will vary per interface.
> =20
> [Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 but only when we know that continuing to send at =
a high rate isn=E2=80=99t useful. It isn=E2=80=99t meant to fix things =
(as I keep emphasizing) and in a network that works as intended it =
should never be necessary.


Ok, below you say that you=E2=80=99re willing to be aggressive.  But =
being aggressive means that we WILL push things into flow control.


> What you=E2=80=99re NOT doing is providing information about the =
receiver=E2=80=99s input queue and requested input rate.  With less =
information, the transmitter can only approximate the optimal rate and =
your proposal seems like a Newton=E2=80=99s method approach to =
determining that rate. =20
> =20
> [Les:] For all of the implementations I have worked on (5 now =E2=80=93 =
across 3 different vendors =E2=80=93 not all still available =F0=9F=98=8A =
) such information is not easily determined. Buffer pools are shared =
among many components, input queues may have multiple stages not all of =
which are visible to the routing protocol. Plus, since once flow control =
is needed there is already a problem, this isn=E2=80=99t fixing things =
=E2=80=93 it is just trying to get by.
> =20
> A solution which depends on current receiver state =E2=80=9Call the =
time=E2=80=9D is hard =E2=80=93 and hard to optimize. And I think we =
don=E2=80=99t need that degree of precision for optimal operation.



No one is suggesting =E2=80=9Call the time=E2=80=9D.   The point is to =
provide more information than what=E2=80=99s currently in the PSNP.  The =
more information the transmitter has, the more accurately it can =
approximate the optimal transmit rate and maximize goodput.
=20

> Your proposal depends on two constants: Usafe and Umax.  How do you =
know what those are?
> =20
> [Les:] Not yet.


That seems like a core problem.


> That=E2=80=99s information about the receiver.=20
> =20
> [Les:] Happy to agree to that.


Yay!  One more thing that we agree on.  :-)


> I infer that you propose to hard code some conservative values for =
these.  In my mind, that implies that you will be going more slowly than =
you could if you had more accurate data.  And pretty much what we=E2=80=99=
re proposing is that the receiver advertise this type of information so =
that we don=E2=80=99t have to assume the worst case.  This also is nice =
because an implementation only has to know about it=E2=80=99s own =
capabilities.
> =20
> [Les:] I expect the values to be aggressive =E2=80=93 because the =
downside of flooding LSPs too fast for (say) a few seconds is small.


Hmmm=E2=80=A6. I=E2=80=99m not yet convinced.  Elsewhere on the thread, =
you said that a good implementation should prioritize receiving IIHs =
over LSPs and *SNPs.  I concur with that, but in my experience (5 =
vendors) I only know of one that implemented that in silicon, and that =
one=E2=80=99s not available (sob!).

Thus, my concern is that without a good approximation for the goodput =
rate, we will either chronically underestimate, penalizing convergence, =
or chronically overestimate, risking the stability of the network.

Tony


--Apple-Mail=_98456B7B-A9D7-48F8-824A-871D5FE95EE1
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Les,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
thread reminds me of how easy it is to miscommunicate =E2=80=93 and I =
bear some of the responsibility for =
that.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Communications takes two. &nbsp;The receiver must also =
be focused on the input. My bad too.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=
=99t see anything in there about changing the PSNP signaling rate. =
&nbsp;=46rom your comments to Henk, I infer that you=E2=80=99re open to =
changing that rate.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] The proposal in the slides =
is simply an example/straw man. I did not spend a lot of time on it =E2=80=
=93 in fact in the first draft of the slides I did not even provide a =
proposal. It certainly needs more refinement.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">It is meant only to illustrate how we can do =
things w/o requiring the receive side to do calculations for which the =
raw data may be difficult and w/o requiring new =
TLVs.</i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Understood. &nbsp;The =
difficulty in implementation is not our primary concern and something of =
a chicken and egg situation: if we do not ask to get the data about the =
input critical path, we will not get it.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>We=E2=80=99ve had a very similar situation with IP =
option handling: IP header options used to be very, very rare, so the =
first generation of forwarding ASICs passed off options for =
software-based forwarding. This made options slow. &nbsp;IPv6 designers =
then decided that options were slow, so they weren=E2=80=99t going to =
use options. &nbsp;;-)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If we need =
data from the platform silicon, then we should ask for it. &nbsp;We=E2=80=99=
re not going to get it if we don=E2=80=99t ask. &nbsp;And without =
specifics about what=E2=80=99s going on, we=E2=80=99re not going to make =
good approximations to the optimal rate.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D"">As soon as you do that, you=E2=80=99re now providing =
receiver based feedback and creating flow control. &nbsp;You=E2=80=99re =
accepting that rates will vary per interface.</span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 but only =
when we know that continuing to send at a high rate isn=E2=80=99t =
useful. It isn=E2=80=99t meant to fix things (as I keep emphasizing) and =
in a network that works as intended it should never be =
necessary.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>Ok, below you say that =
you=E2=80=99re willing to be aggressive. &nbsp;But being aggressive =
means that we WILL push things into flow control.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What you=E2=80=99re NOT doing is =
providing information about the receiver=E2=80=99s input queue and =
requested input rate. &nbsp;With less information, the transmitter can =
only approximate the optimal rate and your proposal seems like a =
Newton=E2=80=99s method approach to determining that rate. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] For all of the =
implementations I have worked on (5 now =E2=80=93 across 3 different =
vendors =E2=80=93 not all still available<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></i></b><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">=F0=9F=98=8A</span></i></b><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>) such =
information is not easily determined. Buffer pools are shared among many =
components, input queues may have multiple stages not all of which are =
visible to the routing protocol. Plus, since once flow control is needed =
there is already a problem, this isn=E2=80=99t fixing things =E2=80=93 =
it is just trying to get by.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">A solution which depends on =
current receiver state =E2=80=9Call the time=E2=80=9D is hard =E2=80=93 =
and hard to optimize. And I think we don=E2=80=99t need that degree of =
precision for optimal =
operation.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>No one is suggesting =E2=80=9Call the time=E2=80=9D.=
 &nbsp; The point is to provide more information than what=E2=80=99s =
currently in the PSNP. &nbsp;The more information the transmitter has, =
the more accurately it can approximate the optimal transmit rate and =
maximize goodput.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Your proposal depends on two constants: Usafe and Umax. =
&nbsp;How do you know what those are?</span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] Not =
yet.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>That seems like a core =
problem.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s information =
about the receiver.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] Happy to agree to =
that.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>Yay! &nbsp;One more thing =
that we agree on. &nbsp;:-)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I infer that you propose to hard code some conservative =
values for these. &nbsp;In my mind, that implies that you will be going =
more slowly than you could if you had more accurate data. &nbsp;And =
pretty much what we=E2=80=99re proposing is that the receiver advertise =
this type of information so that we don=E2=80=99t have to assume the =
worst case. &nbsp;This also is nice because an implementation only has =
to know about it=E2=80=99s own capabilities.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] I expect the values to be =
aggressive =E2=80=93 because the downside of flooding LSPs too fast for =
(say) a few seconds is small.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Hmmm=E2=80=A6. I=E2=80=99m=
 not yet convinced. &nbsp;Elsewhere on the thread, you said that a good =
implementation should prioritize receiving IIHs over LSPs and *SNPs. =
&nbsp;I concur with that, but in my experience (5 vendors) I only know =
of one that implemented that in silicon, and that one=E2=80=99s not =
available (sob!).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Thus, my concern =
is that without a good approximation for the goodput rate, we will =
either chronically underestimate, penalizing convergence, or chronically =
overestimate, risking the stability of the network.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Tony</div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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> Whether a BCP draft is desired is something I am open to considering.


Process nit: what we=E2=80=99re talking about doing, regardless of how =
we do it, is overriding 10589.  As that=E2=80=99s a normative reference, =
overriding that requires that we have a standards track document.

I don=E2=80=99t believe that even a BCP is sufficient.=20

Well, that=E2=80=99s my understanding, at least.

Tony



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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,

> If you disagree please take things bullet-by-bullet:
> =20
> LSP input queue implementations are typically interface independent =
FIFOs


Very true.  It would not be unreasonable for an implementation to report =
free space in the FIFO (in number of PDUs) divided by the number of =
active adjacencies.  Everyone gets their fair share.

[If dynamic flooding is enabled, this could be based on the number of =
adjacencies that should be actively flooding. That should be a much =
smaller number.]


> Overloaded Receiver does not know which senders are disproportionately =
causing the overflow


This doesn=E2=80=99t matter.  The receiver needs them all to slow down.


> LSPs may be dropped at lower layers =E2=80=93 IS-IS receiver may be =
unaware that the overload condition exists


That=E2=80=99s an implementation problem. The implementation NEEDS to be =
able to see its input queue plus input drops.


> Updating hellos dynamically to alter flooding transmission rate is an =
OOB signaling mechanism consuming  resources at a time when routers are =
the most busy
> Consistent flooding rates will require updated hellos be sent to all =
neighbors =E2=80=93 exacerbating the cost on both sender and receiver


This is why I suggest sending the feedback in PSNPs as well as in IIHs.  =
Regardless of the details, we need to consider sending PSNPs back more =
frequently.  I concur that optimizing the rate and triggers for sending =
more PSNPs is an open issue.

Strictly speaking, sending a TLV inside of our protocol PDUs is an =
in-band signaling mechanism.

The resources consumed by maintaining a running count of a queue in =
silicon or in process space is effectively zero.

Tony



--Apple-Mail=_DFDE667E-1957-46ED-A2EE-EEDB314EE4AE
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Les,</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">If you disagree please take things =
bullet-by-bullet:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></div><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">LSP input queue =
implementations are typically interface independent =
FIFOs</span></i></b></li></ul></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Very true. &nbsp;It =
would not be unreasonable for an implementation to report free space in =
the FIFO (in number of PDUs) divided by the number of active =
adjacencies. &nbsp;Everyone gets their fair share.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>[If dynamic flooding is enabled, this could be =
based on the number of adjacencies that should be actively flooding. =
That should be a much smaller number.]</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Overloaded Receiver does =
not know which senders are disproportionately causing the =
overflow</span></i></b></li></ul></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This doesn=E2=80=99t =
matter. &nbsp;The receiver needs them all to slow down.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">LSPs may be dropped at =
lower layers =E2=80=93 IS-IS receiver may be unaware that the overload =
condition =
exists</span></i></b></li></ul></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>That=E2=80=99s an =
implementation problem. The implementation NEEDS to be able to see its =
input queue plus input drops.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Updating hellos =
dynamically to alter flooding transmission rate is an OOB signaling =
mechanism consuming&nbsp; resources at a time when routers are the most =
busy<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">Consistent flooding =
rates will require updated hellos be sent to all neighbors =E2=80=93 =
exacerbating the cost on both sender and receiver<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></li></ul></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This is why I =
suggest sending the feedback in PSNPs as well as in IIHs. =
&nbsp;Regardless of the details, we need to consider sending PSNPs back =
more frequently. &nbsp;I concur that optimizing the rate and triggers =
for sending more PSNPs is an open issue.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Strictly speaking, sending a TLV inside of our =
protocol PDUs is an in-band signaling mechanism.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The resources consumed by maintaining a running =
count of a queue in silicon or in process space is effectively =
zero.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Tony</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "tony.li@tony.li" <tony.li@tony.li>
CC: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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To: Les Ginsberg <ginsberg@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Les,


> Very true.  It would not be unreasonable for an implementation to =
report free space in the FIFO (in number of PDUs) divided by the number =
of active adjacencies.  Everyone gets their fair share.
> =20
> [If dynamic flooding is enabled, this could be based on the number of =
adjacencies that should be actively flooding. That should be a much =
smaller number.]
> [Les:] So you are agreeing that when a receiver wants to =E2=80=9Cdial =
back=E2=80=9D it will need to do so on all interfaces enabled for =
flooding?


Certainly.  There=E2=80=99s one CPU, one input queue.   If there=E2=80=99s=
 a flooding event in progress, then it=E2=80=99s likely to arrive from =
all sides.  Dialing back on all interfaces makes sense as =
self-preservation.


> LSPs may be dropped at lower layers =E2=80=93 IS-IS receiver may be =
unaware that the overload condition exists
> =20
> That=E2=80=99s an implementation problem. The implementation NEEDS to =
be able to see its input queue plus input drops.
> =20
> [Les:] And you want to ship this feature when=E2=80=A6? =F0=9F=98=8A
> I think this is a difficult ask.
> Before we decide this is what is required we should explore the path =
of monitoring the unacknowledged Tx queue.


That=E2=80=99s the tail wagging the dog. =20

I=E2=80=99m less concerned about when.  The people who want this feature =
are going to pay for it.  They will set the agenda and schedule, not us. =
 We need to figure out how to do it properly.

=20
> Updating hellos dynamically to alter flooding transmission rate is an =
OOB signaling mechanism consuming  resources at a time when routers are =
the most busy
> Consistent flooding rates will require updated hellos be sent to all =
neighbors =E2=80=93 exacerbating the cost on both sender and receiver
> =20
> This is why I suggest sending the feedback in PSNPs as well as in =
IIHs.  Regardless of the details, we need to consider sending PSNPs back =
more frequently.  I concur that optimizing the rate and triggers for =
sending more PSNPs is an open issue.
> =20
> Strictly speaking, sending a TLV inside of our protocol PDUs is an =
in-band signaling mechanism.
> [Les:] I agree =E2=80=93 PSNP would be better since we need to send it =
anyway in order to ACK. Still does not convince me this is the preferred =
approach =E2=80=93 but I agree it is better than hellos.


Please note that I prefer BOTH.  Sending it in IIHs is useful because it =
allows adjacencies that are not expecting a PSNP to still get some =
feedback. It would also prevent problems that we=E2=80=99ve seen with =
TCP and connections getting stuck with a zero window.


> The resources consumed by maintaining a running count of a queue in =
silicon or in process space is effectively zero.
> =20
> [Les:] It is not about counting =E2=80=93 it is about how a given =
queue might be used. It isn=E2=80=99t reasonable to mandate that a =
dataplane-to-forwarding plane queue be dedicated to IS-IS. What other =
control plane entities are using the queue and how they empty it will =
introduce new variables. And the implementation cost comes in providing =
=E2=80=9Creal time updates=E2=80=9D on the current queue space to =
clients that need it.


Well, that=E2=80=99s up to your implementation.  Even if it is a shared =
queue, it has a finite depth and the transmitter should not overrun it. =
Scale your numbers accordingly.


> I really think monitoring the unacknowledged TX queue will give us =
what we need and make the solution completely contained within the IS-IS =
implementation.
> Guess I need to work on more details on that approach.


Please focus on how the transmitter distinguishes between packets lost =
and packets queued at the receiver.

Both imply that the TX rate was too high.  One suggests that =
retransmissions should be expedited.  The other suggests that they =
should not.

Tony



--Apple-Mail=_F4F61A2C-9C3B-4ACE-AB6F-69E2FC56A9F6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Les,</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in =
4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Very true. &nbsp;It would not be unreasonable for an =
implementation to report free space in the FIFO (in number of PDUs) =
divided by the number of active adjacencies. &nbsp;Everyone gets their =
fair share.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[If dynamic flooding is enabled, this could be based on the =
number of adjacencies that should be actively flooding. That should be a =
much smaller number.]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] So you are agreeing that =
when a receiver wants to =E2=80=9Cdial back=E2=80=9D it will need to do =
so on all interfaces enabled for =
flooding?</i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
 class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Certainly. =
&nbsp;There=E2=80=99s one CPU, one input queue. &nbsp; If there=E2=80=99s =
a flooding event in progress, then it=E2=80=99s likely to arrive from =
all sides. &nbsp;Dialing back on all interfaces makes sense as =
self-preservation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: =
0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">LSPs may be dropped at lower layers =E2=80=93 IS-IS =
receiver may be unaware that the overload condition =
exists</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s an implementation problem. The implementation =
NEEDS to be able to see its input queue plus input drops.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] And you want to ship this =
feature when=E2=80=A6?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></i></b><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">=F0=9F=98=8A</span></i></b><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">I think this is a difficult =
ask.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">Before we decide this is what is =
required we should explore the path of monitoring the unacknowledged Tx =
queue.</i></b></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>That=E2=80=99s the tail =
wagging the dog. &nbsp;</div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div>I=E2=80=99m less concerned about when. =
&nbsp;The people who want this feature are going to pay for it. =
&nbsp;They will set the agenda and schedule, not us. &nbsp;We need to =
figure out how to do it properly.</div><div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: =
0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">Updating hellos dynamically to alter flooding =
transmission rate is an OOB signaling mechanism consuming&nbsp; =
resources at a time when routers are the most busy</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">Consistent flooding rates will require updated =
hellos be sent to all neighbors =E2=80=93 exacerbating the cost on both =
sender and =
receiver</span></i></b></li></ul></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This is why I suggest sending the feedback in PSNPs as well =
as in IIHs. &nbsp;Regardless of the details, we need to consider sending =
PSNPs back more frequently. &nbsp;I concur that optimizing the rate and =
triggers for sending more PSNPs is an open issue.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strictly speaking, sending a TLV inside =
of our protocol PDUs is an in-band signaling mechanism.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] I agree =E2=80=93 PSNP would be better =
since we need to send it anyway in order to ACK. Still does not convince =
me this is the preferred approach =E2=80=93 but I agree it is better =
than hellos.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Please note that I =
prefer BOTH. &nbsp;Sending it in IIHs is useful because it allows =
adjacencies that are not expecting a PSNP to still get some feedback. It =
would also prevent problems that we=E2=80=99ve seen with TCP and =
connections getting stuck with a zero window.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The resources consumed by maintaining a running count of a =
queue in silicon or in process space is effectively zero.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D"">[Les:] It is not about counting =
=E2=80=93 it is about how a given queue might be used. It isn=E2=80=99t =
reasonable to mandate that a dataplane-to-forwarding plane queue be =
dedicated to IS-IS. What other control plane entities are using the =
queue and how they empty it will introduce new variables. And the =
implementation cost comes in providing =E2=80=9Creal time updates=E2=80=9D=
 on the current queue space to clients that need =
it.</i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Well, that=E2=80=99s up =
to your implementation. &nbsp;Even if it is a shared queue, it has a =
finite depth and the transmitter should not overrun it. Scale your =
numbers accordingly.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">I really think monitoring the unacknowledged TX =
queue will give us what we need and make the solution completely =
contained within the IS-IS implementation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D"">Guess I need to work on more details on that =
approach.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></i></b></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Please focus on how the =
transmitter distinguishes between packets lost and packets queued at the =
receiver.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Both imply that the TX =
rate was too high. &nbsp;One suggests that retransmissions should be =
expedited. &nbsp;The other suggests that they should not.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Tony</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F4F61A2C-9C3B-4ACE-AB6F-69E2FC56A9F6--


From nobody Thu Jul 25 07:36:21 2019
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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:36:04 +0200
From: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: stephane.litkowski@orange.com, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, lsr@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Dynamic flow control for flooding
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Hello Les,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

> [Les:] Base specification defines partialSNPInterval (2 seconds).
> Clearly w faster flooding we should look at decreasing this
> timer - but we certainly should not do away with it.

That was the point I was trying to make:
You kept mentioning that your "tx based flow control" only needed
changes to the internal implementation of the LSP-sender.
That's not the case. Your algorithm also depends on behaviour
of the LSP-receiver. I did not see that mentioned anywhere before.
Good to see that you (and Tony) now acknowledge this necessity.

I hope you also realize (and agree) that changing the algorithm
to send PSNPs on the LSP-receiver, in a way to improve the
flow-control algorithm for the LSP-sender, will probably have a
negative impact on the current efficiency of bundling acks in
PSNPs. And that change can multiply the number of PSNPs (and thus
ISIS PDUs in input queues) that need to be received on routers.

> If you don’t like the name we can certainly find something more 
> appealing.

I don't care much about the name.
(In general I do care about naming in programming. And even 10x more 
about
naming in protocol documents. But that's not important in the discussion
at the moment).

The point I was trying to get across is that your proposal is not
something that happens internally on a single individual router. It is
an algorithm that involves 2 routers. And thus it is a protocol issue.

> What I am proposing does not require protocol extensions -
> therefore no draft is required.

Protocols do no only describe octets on the wire. They also describe
behaviour. Thus, as Tony has already said, your proposed algorithm
also need to be documented. In an RFC probably.

> Whether a BCP draft is desired is something I am open to considering.

I don't know much about process in the IETF. But I was always under
the assumptions that BCPs were mostly network design/configuration
recommendations for network operators.


 From an earlier email:
> [Les:] I think you know what I am about to say.. :)

Yes, my question of why use exponential backoffs was a rethorical
question (as I wrote at the end of my email).
I wrote:
>> I hope it is clear to everyone that these are not serious questions. 
>> I'm
>> just saying: "sometimes fast is slow".

FYI, few people probably know this, but I happen to be the guy that
intially came up with the idea of exponential backoffs in IGPs.
(Back in 1999 when I was at cisco).

Anyway, to reiterate my point: "sometimes fast is slow". It seems we
now all agree that sending LSPs "rapidly" and then assuming 
retransmissions
will fix any problems, is an approach that is way too naive. Good.

henk.


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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:33:39 -0400
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, Albert Fu <afu14@bloomberg.net>,  "=?utf-8?Q?idr=40ietf.org?=" <idr@ietf.org>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: "=?utf-8?Q?lsr=40ietf.org?=" <lsr@ietf.org>,  "=?utf-8?Q?rtg-bfd=40ietf.org?=" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/OlrZeBWuUVwqUc6Fr6Mi4UzJVUQ>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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Sue,

I support progress of this draft, it addresses real problem.
On Redback side of things we have implemented this around 2013, logic (pr=
oprietary) kept in B=46D=C2=A0indeed, so +1 Ketan. I=E2=80=99d document i=
t as an informal feature, that is recommended (same for YANG)

Cheers,
Jeff
On Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM -0400, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco=
.com>, wrote:
> Hi Albert,
>
> Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is v=
aluable. This =E2=80=9CB=46D hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire i=
s best handled by B=46D since I would expect that similar behaviour would=
 be desired across routing protocols (OSP=46, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps othe=
r clients.
>
> IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the scope =
of this BGP draft. Would you agree=3F
>
> That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We shou=
ld however discuss within the B=46D WG if there is value in documenting t=
his.
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
> =46rom: Idr <idr-bounces=40ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: 25 July 2019 16:21
> To: 'Albert =46u' <afu14=40bloomberg.net>; idr=40ietf.org
> Subject: Re: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
> Albert:
>
> To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draft as is.
>
> As a WG chair, I have to trust that all =C2=A0drafts are improved durin=
g the WG process.=C2=A0 Can this small change be made after adoption or s=
hould it be made before the draft is considered for adoption.
>
> Sue Hares
>
> =46rom: Idr =5Bmailto:idr-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Albert =46=
u (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM
> To: idr=40ietf.org
> Subject: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
> I am in support of this draft, and would like to request a small change=
 to make this draft more operationally useful.
>
> We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our productio=
n network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict=
 B=46D mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.
>
> Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, =
ie. break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold=
-time/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.
>
> We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and woul=
d like to request that an option be added in =22Section 4 Operation:=22 t=
o delay BGP from coming up until B=46D is proven stable continuously for =
a period of time (i.e. B=46D hold up feature).
>
> This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor=
 deployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have=
 some links where we delay BGP from coming up until B=46D has been stable=
 continuously for 60 seconds.
>
> Thanks
> Albert =46u
> Bloomberg
> >
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr=40ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>Sue,
<div dir=3D=22auto=22><br /></div>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>I support progress of this draft, it addresses real=
 problem.&=23160;
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>On Redback side of things we have implemented this =
around 2013, logic (proprietary) kept in B=46D&=23160;<span style=3D=22ca=
ret-color: rgb(39, 39, 40);=22>indeed</span>, so +1 Ketan. I=E2=80=99d do=
cument it as an informal feature, that is recommended (same for YANG) &=23=
160;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
<div class=3D=22match=46ont=22>Cheers,
<div>Jeff</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM -0400, Ket=
an Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=40cisco.com&gt;, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =231abc9c;=22>
<div class=3D=22WordSection1=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>Hi Albert,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>Thanks for your feedback from=
 an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is valuable. This =E2=80=9CB=46D ho=
ld up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is best handled by B=46D since I=
 would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing prot=
ocols (OSP=46, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>IMHO this is not something th=
at we should be tackling within the scope of this BGP draft. Would you ag=
ree=3F</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>That said, this seems like a =
local implementation aspect to me. We should however discuss within the B=
=46D WG if there is value in documenting this.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>Thanks,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>Ketan</span><span style=3D=22=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-l=
anguage:EN-US=22></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</sp=
an></p>
<div>
<div style=3D=22border:none;border-top:solid =23E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0cm 0cm 0cm=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><b><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-=
US=22>=46rom:</span></b> <span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>Idr &lt;idr-bounces=40ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of</b> Susan Hares<br />=

<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2019 16:21<br />
<b>To:</b> 'Albert =46u' &lt;afu14=40bloomberg.net&gt;; idr=40ietf.org<br=
 />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode</span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22>&=23160;</p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Albert:</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draf=
t as is.&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>As a WG chair, I have to trust that all &=23160;draf=
ts are improved during the WG process.&=23160; Can this small change be m=
ade after adoption or should it be made before the draft is considered fo=
r adoption.</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Sue Hares</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=231=46497D=22 xm=
l:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D=22border:none;border-top:solid =23B5C4D=46 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><b><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-U=
S=22>=46rom:</span></b> <span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>I=
dr =5B<a href=3D=22mailto:idr-bounces=40ietf.org=22>mailto:idr-bounces=40=
ietf.org</a>=5D <b>On Behalf Of</b> Albert =46u (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)<br =
/>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM<br />
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D=22mailto:idr=40ietf.org=22>idr=40ietf.org</a><br />=

<b>Subject:</b> =5BIdr=5D draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode</span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22=
>&=23160;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-famil=
y:&quot;BB.Proportional&quot;,serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>I am in sup=
port of this draft, and would like to request a small change to make this=
 draft more operationally useful.<br />
<br />
We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production =
network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict B=
=46D mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.<br />
&=23160;<br />
Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie=
. break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold-t=
ime/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.&=23160;</sp=
an><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-famil=
y:&quot;BB.Proportional&quot;,serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22><br />
We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would =
like to request that an option be added in =22Section 4 Operation:=22 to =
delay BGP from coming up until B=46D is proven stable continuously for a =
period of time (i.e. B=46D hold up feature).&=23160;</span><span lang=3D=22=
EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22 style=3D=22margin-bottom:12.0pt=22><span lang=3D=
=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-family:&quot;BB.Proportional&quot;,serif=22 x=
ml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22><br />
This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor d=
eployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have s=
ome links where we delay BGP from coming up until B=46D has been stable c=
ontinuously for 60 seconds.<br />
<br />
Thanks<br />
Albert =46u<br />
Bloomberg</span><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22></span></=
p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: =
thin solid =23e67e22;=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-famil=
y:&quot;BB.Proportional&quot;,serif=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</s=
pan></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
Lsr mailing list<br />
Lsr=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr<br /></blockquote>
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From: Albert F <albert.f168@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 17:13:25 -0400
Message-ID: <CAEaWqmokZiFUVYr2Wcnk8hK38xZyL918RnBmrKaiPjh213hS=A@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>,  "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/M8Wa8lXwzaiq3nZeG2cmR7czOI8>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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Hi Ketan,

I think it will be good to mention this in the doc, as I expect most large
networks concerned with network stability impacted by link flaps to enable
the BFD hold-up feature.

For example, if one side has BFD hold-up enabled (> BGP hold time) and the
other side does not, the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delayed
even if BFD is up. This may have implication on the BGP session
transitiining to established phase.

Thanks
Albert



On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Hi Albert,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is val=
uable.
> This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is best hand=
led by BFD since I
> would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing
> protocols (OSPF, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients.
>
>
>
> IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the scope of
> this BGP draft. Would you agree?
>
>
>
> That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We should
> however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in documenting this.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* 25 July 2019 16:21
> *To:* 'Albert Fu' <afu14@bloomberg.net>; idr@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
>
>
> Albert:
>
>
>
> To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draft as is.
>
>
>
> As a WG chair, I have to trust that all  drafts are improved during the W=
G
> process.  Can this small change be made after adoption or should it be ma=
de
> before the draft is considered for adoption.
>
>
>
> Sue Hares
>
>
>
> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org <idr-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM
> *To:* idr@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
>
>
> I am in support of this draft, and would like to request a small change t=
o
> make this draft more operationally useful.
>
> We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production
> network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict B=
FD
> mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.
>
> Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie=
.
> break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface
> hold-time/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.
>
>
> We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would
> like to request that an option be added in "Section 4 Operation:" to dela=
y
> BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a period o=
f
> time (i.e. BFD hold up feature).
>
>
> This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor
> deployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have
> some links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable
> continuously for 60 seconds.
>
> Thanks
> Albert Fu
> Bloomberg
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>

--0000000000004578cc058e87e62c
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<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Ketan,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I =
think it will be good to mention this in the doc, as I expect most large ne=
tworks concerned with network stability impacted by link flaps to enable th=
e BFD hold-up feature.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">F=
or example, if one side has BFD hold-up enabled (&gt; BGP hold time) and th=
e other side does not, the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delay=
ed even if BFD is up. This may have implication on the BGP session transiti=
ining to established phase.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Thanks</div><div dir=3D"auto">Albert</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (=
ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-IN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_2983448012030580957WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Hi Albert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it i=
s valuable. This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is=
 best handled by BFD since I would expect that
 similar behaviour would be desired across routing protocols (OSPF, ISIS, B=
GP) and perhaps other clients.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the sco=
pe of this BGP draft. Would you agree?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We s=
hould however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in documenting th=
is.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">Ketan</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Idr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
referrer">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2019 16:21<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Albert Fu&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afu14@bloomberg.net" t=
arget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">afu14@bloomberg.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D=
"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">idr@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Albert:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">To clarify, do you sup=
port WG adoption with the draft as is.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As a WG chair, I have =
to trust that all =C2=A0drafts are improved during the WG process.=C2=A0 Ca=
n this small change be made after adoption or should it be
 made before the draft is considered for adoption. <u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sue Hares<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Id=
r [<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer=
rer">mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer=
rer">idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;BB.P=
roportional&quot;,serif">I am in support of this draft, and would like to r=
equest a small change to make this draft more operationally useful.<br>
<br>
We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production ne=
twork without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict BFD m=
ode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie. =
break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold-time/=
debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.=C2=A0</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;BB.P=
roportional&quot;,serif"><br>
We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would li=
ke to request that an option be added in &quot;Section 4 Operation:&quot; t=
o delay BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a pe=
riod of time (i.e. BFD hold up feature).=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;BB.Proportional&quot;,serif"><br>
This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor dep=
loyment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have some =
links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable continuou=
sly for 60 seconds.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Albert Fu<br>
Bloomberg</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;BB.P=
roportional&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Idr@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "Mercia Zheng (merciaz)" <merciaz@cisco.com>
To: Albert F <albert.f168@gmail.com>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
CC: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:35:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 18:41:14 -0400
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To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: Albert F <albert.f168@gmail.com>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>,  "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>,  Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/SZ-1oi7oTMtuIUOBV088D9htcCg>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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Hi Acee,
I imagine that there could be multiple clients of the same BFD session with
different requirements in regard to dampening behavior. For example, the
delay each client desires to use may be different for each client of the
BFD session. If that is a plausible use case, I think that placing
dampening to a client may be a better choice.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 6:23 PM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Albert, Ketan,
>
> The authors will document dampening in the operational considerations. I=
=E2=80=99m
> also of the mind that the dampening should be done in BFD rather than the
> BFD clients (e.g., BGP).
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>
>
> *From: *Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Albert F <
> albert.f168@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 5:14 PM
> *To: *"Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *IDR List <idr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>,
> Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "
> lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
>
>
> Hi Ketan,
>
>
>
> I think it will be good to mention this in the doc, as I expect most larg=
e
> networks concerned with network stability impacted by link flaps to enabl=
e
> the BFD hold-up feature.
>
>
>
> For example, if one side has BFD hold-up enabled (> BGP hold time) and th=
e
> other side does not, the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delay=
ed
> even if BFD is up. This may have implication on the BGP session
> transitiining to established phase.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Albert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com=
>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Albert,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =E2=80=93 it is val=
uable.
> This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that you desire is best hand=
led by BFD since I
> would expect that similar behaviour would be desired across routing
> protocols (OSPF, ISIS, BGP) and perhaps other clients.
>
>
>
> IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling within the scope of
> this BGP draft. Would you agree?
>
>
>
> That said, this seems like a local implementation aspect to me. We should
> however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in documenting this.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ketan
>
>
>
> *From:* Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* 25 July 2019 16:21
> *To:* 'Albert Fu' <afu14@bloomberg.net>; idr@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
>
>
> Albert:
>
>
>
> To clarify, do you support WG adoption with the draft as is.
>
>
>
> As a WG chair, I have to trust that all  drafts are improved during the W=
G
> process.  Can this small change be made after adoption or should it be ma=
de
> before the draft is considered for adoption.
>
>
>
> Sue Hares
>
>
>
> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org <idr-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM
> *To:* idr@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
>
>
>
> I am in support of this draft, and would like to request a small change t=
o
> make this draft more operationally useful.
>
> We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production
> network without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict B=
FD
> mode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.
>
> Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie=
.
> break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface
> hold-time/debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.
>
>
> We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would
> like to request that an option be added in "Section 4 Operation:" to dela=
y
> BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a period o=
f
> time (i.e. BFD hold up feature).
>
>
> This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor
> deployment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have
> some links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable
> continuously for 60 seconds.
>
> Thanks
> Albert Fu
> Bloomberg
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Acee,<div>I imagine that there could be multiple client=
s of the same BFD session with different requirements in regard to dampenin=
g behavior. For example, the delay each client desires to use may be differ=
ent for each client of the BFD session. If that is a plausible use case, I =
think that placing dampening to a client may be a better choice.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 6:23 PM=
 Acee Lindem (acee) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_8715235235768219239WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Albert, Ketan, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The authors will document dampening in the operation=
al considerations. I=E2=80=99m also of the mind that the dampening should b=
e done in BFD rather than the BFD clients (e.g., BGP).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<br>
Acee<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Lsr &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; o=
n behalf of Albert F &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:albert.f168@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">albert.f168@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keta=
nt@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>IDR List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i=
dr@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">rtg-bfd@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Albert Bloomberg &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:afu14@bloomberg.net" target=3D"_blank">afu14@bloomberg.net</a>&gt;, S=
usan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" target=3D"_blank">shares@=
ndzh.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">l=
sr@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lsr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>lsr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Hi Ketan, <u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">I think it will be good =
to mention this in the doc, as I expect most large networks concerned with =
network stability impacted by link flaps to enable the BFD hold-up feature.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">For example, if one side=
 has BFD hold-up enabled (&gt; BGP hold time) and the other side does not, =
the BGP keepalive message from one side may be delayed even if BFD is up. T=
his may have implication on the BGP session
 transitiining to established phase.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Albert<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:=
27 PM Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ketant@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ketant@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">Hi Albert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">Thanks for your feedback from an operator perspective =
=E2=80=93 it is valuable. This =E2=80=9CBFD hold up=E2=80=9D behaviour that=
 you desire is best handled by BFD since I would expect that similar behavi=
our would be desired across routing protocols (OSPF, ISIS,
 BGP) and perhaps other clients.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">IMHO this is not something that we should be tackling =
within the scope of this BGP draft. Would you agree?<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">That said, this seems like a local implementation aspe=
ct to me. We should however discuss within the BFD WG if there is value in =
documenting this.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">Ketan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<b>From:</b> Idr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2019 16:21<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Albert Fu&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afu14@bloomberg.net" t=
arget=3D"_blank">afu14@bloomberg.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode<span lang=
=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span lang=3D"EN-IN">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Albert: </span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">To clarify, do you support WG adoption=
 with the draft as is.=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">As a WG chair, I have to trust that al=
l =C2=A0drafts are improved during the WG process.=C2=A0 Can this small cha=
nge be made after adoption or should it be made before the draft is conside=
red for adoption.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sue Hares</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span=
></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Idr [<a =
href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:idr-bounces@i=
etf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Albert Fu (BLOOMBERG/ 120 PARK)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 25, 2019 4:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
=C2=A0<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">I am in suppo=
rt of this draft, and would like to request a small change to make this dra=
ft more operationally useful.<br>
<br>
We have encountered several traffic blackhole problems in our production ne=
twork without this feature. As such, we have deployed BGP with strict BFD m=
ode on a proprietary vendor implementation for a while.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Since a lot of MetroE circuit failures occur with interfaces still up, ie. =
break in the middle issues, the traditional knobs like interface hold-time/=
debounce timer can not be used to dampen interface flaps.=C2=A0</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
We have observed that interface issues tend to occur in bursts and would li=
ke to request that an option be added in &quot;Section 4 Operation:&quot; t=
o delay BGP from coming up until BFD is proven stable continuously for a pe=
riod of time (i.e. BFD hold up feature).=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><br>
This is a feature that we are currently using in the proprietary vendor dep=
loyment. In our case, since we have multiple redundant paths, we have some =
links where we delay BGP from coming up until BFD has been stable continuou=
sly for 60 seconds.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Albert Fu<br>
Bloomberg</span><span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-IN"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">________________________=
_______________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000042259f058e8920a5--


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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
CC: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
Thread-Index: AdVDOlNklon4K6l2RS+sYO6Udv7qoQ==
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:43:10 +0000
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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 18:58:59 -0400
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "=?utf-8?Q?lsr=40ietf.org?=" <lsr@ietf.org>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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+1 Ketan

Cheers,
Jeff
On Jul 25, 2019, 6:43 PM -0400, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant=40cisco=
.com>, wrote:
> Hi Acee/All,
>
> During the LSR WG meeting on Monday, we talked about covering the BGP-L=
S aspects of the following two IGP drafts in those drafts instead of requ=
iring a separate document:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-mpls-elc/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-mpls-elc/
>
> Originally, these IGP drafts introduced a new node capability that requ=
ired a new BGP-LS TLV and this was captured in the IDR WG document https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld/
>
> However after the discussion in the LSR WG over the last few months, th=
e approach has changed such that the IGP signalling is being done by intr=
oduction of new flags and MSD-type. This makes the corresponding BGP-LS u=
pdates quite trivial and as discussed in the LSR WG, I would recommend to=
 add some text (proposed below) to the two IGP documents.
>
> OSP=46:
> The OSP=46 extensions defined in this document can be advertised via BG=
P-LS =5BR=46C7752=5D using existing BGP-LS TLVs. The flags field of the O=
SP=46v2 Extended Prefix TLV and the OSP=46v3 PrefixOptions where the ELC =
=46lag introduced in this document is advertised using the Prefix Attribu=
te =46lags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4/IPv6 Prefix NLRI Attribute =5B=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=23=
section-2.3.2=5D. The new ERLD MSD-type introduced for OSP=46 by this doc=
ument is advertised using the Node MSD TLV (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node NLRI =
Attribute =5Bhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-ro=
uting-msd-05=23section-3=5D.
>
> ISIS:
> The IS-IS extensions defined in this document can be advertised via BGP=
-LS =5BR=46C7752=5D using existing BGP-LS TLVs. The Prefix Attribute =46l=
ags sub-TLV where the ELC =46lag is introduced in this document is advert=
ised using the Prefix Attribute =46lags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4=
/IPv6 Prefix NLRI Attribute =5Bhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr=
-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=23section-2.3.2=5D. The new ERLD MSD-type =
introduced for IS-IS by this document is advertised using the Node MSD TL=
V (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node NLRI Attribute =5Bhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=23section-3=5D.
>
> I am copying the IDR WG and authors of the BGP-LS ERLD draft as well fo=
r their inputs/feedback.
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
> =46rom: Lsr <lsr-bounces=40ietf.org> On Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee)
> Sent: 25 July 2019 16:28
> To: lsr=40ietf.org
> Subject: =5BLsr=5D IET=46 105 LSR Working Group Meeting Minutes
>
> I think we had some very good discussions in our sessions this week. I=E2=
=80=99ve uploaded the minutes for the both LSR sessions on Monday. Thanks=
 much to Yingzhen Qu for taking them.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-lsr-00
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr=40ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22>
<div dir=3D=22auto=22>+1 Ketan</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
<div class=3D=22match=46ont=22>Cheers,
<div>Jeff</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On Jul 25, 2019, 6:43 PM -0400, Ket=
an Talaulikar (ketant) &lt;ketant=40cisco.com&gt;, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22spark=5Fquote=22 style=3D=22marg=
in: 5px 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid =231abc9c;=22>
<div class=3D=22WordSection1=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>Hi Acee/All,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>During the LSR WG meeting on Monday, we talked about co=
vering the BGP-LS aspects of the following two IGP drafts in those drafts=
 instead of requiring a separate document:</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=22><a href=3D=22https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-mpls-elc/=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-ietf-isis-mpls-elc/</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black=22><a href=3D=22https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-mpls-elc/=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-ietf-ospf-mpls-elc/</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>Originally, these IGP drafts introduced a new node capa=
bility that required a new BGP-LS TLV and this was captured in the IDR WG=
 document</span> <a href=3D=22https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf=
-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld/=22>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld/</a><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0=
pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=22></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>However after the discussion in the LSR WG over the las=
t few months, the approach has changed such that the IGP signalling is be=
ing done by introduction of new flags and MSD-type. This makes the corres=
ponding BGP-LS updates quite trivial and as discussed in the LSR WG, I wo=
uld recommend to add some text (proposed below) to the two IGP documents.=
</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>OSP=46:</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoPlainText=22>The OSP=46 extensions defined in this docum=
ent can be advertised via BGP-LS =5BR=46C7752=5D using existing BGP-LS TL=
Vs. The flags field of the OSP=46v2 Extended Prefix TLV and the OSP=46v3 =
PrefixOptions where the ELC =46lag introduced in this document is adverti=
sed using the Prefix Attribute =46lags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4/=
IPv6 Prefix NLRI Attribute =5Bhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-=
bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=23section-2.3.2=5D. The new ERLD MSD-type i=
ntroduced for OSP=46 by this document is advertised using the Node MSD TL=
V (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node NLRI Attribute =5Bhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=23section-3=5D.</p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>ISIS:</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoPlainText=22>The IS-IS extensions defined in this docume=
nt can be advertised via BGP-LS =5BR=46C7752=5D using existing BGP-LS TLV=
s. The Prefix Attribute =46lags sub-TLV where the ELC =46lag is introduce=
d in this document is advertised using the Prefix Attribute =46lags TLV (=
TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4/IPv6 Prefix NLRI Attribute =5Bhttps://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=23section-2.3.=
2=5D. The new ERLD MSD-type introduced for IS-IS by this document is adve=
rtised using the Node MSD TLV (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node NLRI Attribute =5B=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=23=
section-3=5D.</p>
<p class=3D=22MsoPlainText=22>&=23160;</p>
<p class=3D=22MsoPlainText=22>I am copying the IDR WG and authors of the =
BGP-LS ERLD draft as well for their inputs/feedback.</p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>Thanks,</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>Ketan</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-=
language:EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D=22border:none;border-top:solid =23E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0cm 0cm 0cm=22>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><b><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-si=
ze:11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>=46rom:</span></b> <span lang=3D=22EN=
-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Lsr &lt;lsr-=
bounces=40ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of</b> Acee Lindem (acee)<br />
<b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2019 16:28<br />
<b>To:</b> lsr=40ietf.org<br />
<b>Subject:</b> =5BLsr=5D IET=46 105 LSR Working Group Meeting Minutes</s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22>&=23160;</p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>I think we had some very good discussion=
s in our sessions this week. I=E2=80=99ve uploaded the minutes for the bo=
th LSR sessions on Monday. Thanks much to Yingzhen Qu for taking them.</s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22><a href=3D=22https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-lsr-00=22>https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-lsr-00</a></span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>Thanks,<br />
Acee</span></p>
<p class=3D=22MsoNormal=22><span lang=3D=22EN-US=22 style=3D=22font-size:=
11.0pt=22 xml:lang=3D=22EN-US=22>&=23160;</span></p>
</div>
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
Lsr mailing list<br />
Lsr=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr<br /></blockquote>
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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Ketan and Acee:

=20

The IDR co-chairs (John and I) wish to reduce the number of trivial =
drafts for BGP-LS allocations that could be done with 1 sentence.   We =
discussed with the LSR chairs (Acee and Chris) that it would be =
reasonable for LSR to do what Ketan has requested.=20

=20

We suggest that the WG LC is sent to IDR and LSR in case someone wants =
to discuss a concern.   The LSR chairs are capable and smart.   Acee and =
Chris can help shepherd these LSR drafts with BGP TLV language. =20

=20

Sue =20

=20

PS =E2=80=93 has anyone heard if Chris Hopps is a father yet?=20

=20

=20

From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ketan Talaulikar =
(ketant)
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 6:43 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee); lsr@ietf.org
Cc: idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld@ietf.org
Subject: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts

=20

Hi Acee/All,

=20

During the LSR WG meeting on Monday, we talked about covering the BGP-LS =
aspects of the following two IGP drafts in those drafts instead of =
requiring a separate document:

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-mpls-elc/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-mpls-elc/

=20

Originally, these IGP drafts introduced a new node capability that =
required a new BGP-LS TLV and this was captured in the IDR WG document =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rl=
d/

=20

However after the discussion in the LSR WG over the last few months, the =
approach has changed such that the IGP signalling is being done by =
introduction of new flags and MSD-type. This makes the corresponding =
BGP-LS updates quite trivial and as discussed in the LSR WG, I would =
recommend to add some text (proposed below) to the two IGP documents.

=20

OSPF:

The OSPF extensions defined in this document can be advertised via =
BGP-LS [RFC7752] using existing BGP-LS TLVs. The flags field of the =
OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV and the OSPFv3 PrefixOptions where the ELC =
Flag introduced in this document is advertised using the Prefix =
Attribute Flags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4/IPv6 Prefix NLRI =
Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=
#section-2.3.2]. The new ERLD MSD-type introduced for OSPF by this =
document is advertised using the Node MSD TLV (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node =
NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=
#section-3].=20

=20

ISIS:

The IS-IS extensions defined in this document can be advertised via =
BGP-LS [RFC7752] using existing BGP-LS TLVs. The Prefix Attribute Flags =
sub-TLV where the ELC Flag is introduced in this document is advertised =
using the Prefix Attribute Flags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4/IPv6 =
Prefix NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=
#section-2.3.2]. The new ERLD MSD-type introduced for IS-IS by this =
document is advertised using the Node MSD TLV (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node =
NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=
#section-3].=20

=20

I am copying the IDR WG and authors of the BGP-LS ERLD draft as well for =
their inputs/feedback.

=20

Thanks,

Ketan

=20

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee)
Sent: 25 July 2019 16:28
To: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: [Lsr] IETF 105 LSR Working Group Meeting Minutes

=20

I think we had some very good discussions in our sessions this week. =
I=E2=80=99ve uploaded the minutes for the both LSR sessions on Monday. =
Thanks much to Yingzhen Qu for taking them.=20

=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-lsr-00

=20

Thanks,
Acee

=20


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Ketan =
and Acee:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The IDR =
co-chairs (John and I) wish to reduce the number of trivial drafts for =
BGP-LS allocations that could be done with 1 sentence. =C2=A0=C2=A0We =
discussed with the LSR chairs (Acee and Chris) that it would be =
reasonable for LSR to do what Ketan has requested. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>We =
suggest that the WG LC is sent to IDR and LSR in case someone wants to =
discuss a concern.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The LSR chairs are capable and =
smart.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Acee and Chris can help shepherd these LSR drafts =
with BGP TLV language.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sue =
=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>PS =
=E2=80=93 has anyone heard if Chris Hopps is a father yet? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ketan Talaulikar =
(ketant)<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 25, 2019 6:43 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Acee Lindem (acee); lsr@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> idr@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-rld@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC =
drafts<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-IN style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Hi =
Acee/All,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>During =
the LSR WG meeting on Monday, we talked about covering the BGP-LS =
aspects of the following two IGP drafts in those drafts instead of =
requiring a separate document:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-mpls-elc/">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-mpls-elc/</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-mpls-elc/">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-mpls-elc/</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Originally, these IGP drafts introduced a new =
node capability that required a new BGP-LS TLV and this was captured in =
the IDR WG document </span><span lang=3DEN-IN><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-ro=
uting-rld/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segmen=
t-routing-rld/</a></span><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>However =
after the discussion in the LSR WG over the last few months, the =
approach has changed such that the IGP signalling is being done by =
introduction of new flags and MSD-type. This makes the corresponding =
BGP-LS updates quite trivial and as discussed in the LSR WG, I would =
recommend to add some text (proposed below) to the two IGP =
documents.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>OSPF:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-IN>The OSPF extensions defined in =
this document can be advertised via BGP-LS [RFC7752] using existing =
BGP-LS TLVs. The flags field of the OSPFv2 Extended Prefix TLV and the =
OSPFv3 PrefixOptions where the ELC Flag introduced in this document is =
advertised using the Prefix Attribute Flags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS =
IPv4/IPv6 Prefix NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=
#section-2.3.2]. The new ERLD MSD-type introduced for OSPF by this =
document is advertised using the Node MSD TLV (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node =
NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=
#section-3]. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-IN style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>ISIS:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-IN>The IS-IS extensions defined in =
this document can be advertised via BGP-LS [RFC7752] using existing =
BGP-LS TLVs. The Prefix Attribute Flags sub-TLV where the ELC Flag is =
introduced in this document is advertised using the Prefix Attribute =
Flags TLV (TLV 1170) of the BGP-LS IPv4/IPv6 Prefix NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-16=
#section-2.3.2]. The new ERLD MSD-type introduced for IS-IS by this =
document is advertised using the Node MSD TLV (TLV 266) of BGP-LS Node =
NLRI Attribute =
[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd-05=
#section-3]. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-IN><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-IN>I am copying the IDR WG and authors of the BGP-LS ERLD =
draft as well for their inputs/feedback.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Ketan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> Lsr &lt;lsr-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Acee Lindem (acee)<br><b>Sent:</b> 25 July 2019 =
16:28<br><b>To:</b> lsr@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Lsr] IETF 105 LSR =
Working Group Meeting Minutes<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-IN><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>I think we had some =
very good discussions in our sessions this week. I=E2=80=99ve uploaded =
the minutes for the both LSR sessions on Monday. Thanks much to Yingzhen =
Qu for taking them. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-ls=
r-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-lsr-=
00</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Thanks,<br>Acee<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></body></htm=
l>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Albert F <albert.f168@gmail.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
Thread-Index: AQHVQyZErzjTIXhNX0O5ABhVo40ILabbxrOAgAABiACAAA0QgP//0DKAgABIVwCAAAfngA==
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 03:09:32 +0000
Message-ID: <B0E27D1E-2831-4795-ACCB-8C45F1F8301D@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Regd covering BGP-LS extensions for IGP ELC drafts
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
CC: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, Albert Bloomberg <afu14@bloomberg.net>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, Albert F <albert.f168@gmail.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] [Idr] draft-merciaz-idr-bgp-bfd-strict-mode
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From nobody Mon Jul 29 10:22:10 2019
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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Cc: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr-ads@ietf.org, draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org
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Subject: [Lsr] WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
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Hi Folks,


As mentioned in the meeting in Montreal, due to mixup (IPR call but no =
WGLC) the IS-IS yang module was submitted to the IESG prior to a WGLC =
being done. We are belated doing a WGLC on this document now. Please =
voice any objections to the continued progression of this document. =
Prior to objecting though please do review any comments received during =
IESG reviews.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg/

The WGLC will complete in 2 weeks on Aug 12th.

Authors (Stephane, Derek and Jeffery),

Please indicate if you are aware of any IPR related to this document in =
a reply to the mailing list (already received from Acee and Ladislav).


Thanks,
Chris & Acee.

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To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ospf-yang@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Last Call: <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> (YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol) to Proposed Standard
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] Last Call: <draft-ietf-ospf-yang-23.txt> (YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol) to Proposed Standard
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From nobody Mon Jul 29 18:25:36 2019
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Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ospf-yang-24.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for OSPF Protocol
        Authors         : Derek Yeung
                          Yingzhen Qu
                          Jeffrey Zhang
                          Ing-Wher Chen
                          Acee Lindem
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ospf-yang-24.txt
	Pages           : 126
	Date            : 2019-07-29

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure
   and manage OSPF.  The model is based on YANG 1.1 as defined in RFC
   7950 and conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture
   (NDMA) as described in RFC 8342.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ospf-yang-24
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ospf-yang-24

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ospf-yang-24


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Tue Jul 30 01:06:47 2019
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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, "lsr-ads@ietf.org" <lsr-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
Thread-Index: AQHVRjInmPc1B8BxPEyN2LQo8eD7Pqbizv9Q
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 08:06:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
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I'm not aware of any IPR related to this document.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Hopps [mailto:chopps@chopps.org]=20
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 19:22
To: lsr@ietf.org
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr-chairs@ietf.org; lsr-ads@ietf.org; draft-ietf-isis=
-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org
Subject: WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)

Hi Folks,


As mentioned in the meeting in Montreal, due to mixup (IPR call but no WGLC=
) the IS-IS yang module was submitted to the IESG prior to a WGLC being don=
e. We are belated doing a WGLC on this document now. Please voice any objec=
tions to the continued progression of this document. Prior to objecting tho=
ugh please do review any comments received during IESG reviews.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg/

The WGLC will complete in 2 weeks on Aug 12th.

Authors (Stephane, Derek and Jeffery),

Please indicate if you are aware of any IPR related to this document in a r=
eply to the mailing list (already received from Acee and Ladislav).


Thanks,
Chris & Acee.

___________________________________________________________________________=
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Thank you.


From nobody Tue Jul 30 01:45:48 2019
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
To: stephane.litkowski@orange.com, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>,  "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Cc: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, "lsr-ads@ietf.org" <lsr-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 10:45:41 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
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I am also not aware of any IPR related to the document.

Lada

On Tue, 2019-07-30 at 08:06 +0000, stephane.litkowski@orange.com wrote:
> I'm not aware of any IPR related to this document.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hopps [mailto:chopps@chopps.org] 
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 19:22
> To: lsr@ietf.org
> Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr-chairs@ietf.org; lsr-ads@ietf.org; 
> draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg@ietf.org
> Subject: WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> As mentioned in the meeting in Montreal, due to mixup (IPR call but no WGLC)
> the IS-IS yang module was submitted to the IESG prior to a WGLC being done. We
> are belated doing a WGLC on this document now. Please voice any objections to
> the continued progression of this document. Prior to objecting though please
> do review any comments received during IESG reviews.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg/
> 
> The WGLC will complete in 2 weeks on Aug 12th.
> 
> Authors (Stephane, Derek and Jeffery),
> 
> Please indicate if you are aware of any IPR related to this document in a
> reply to the mailing list (already received from Acee and Ladislav).
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris & Acee.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________
> 
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> Thank you.
> 
-- 
Ladislav Lhotka
Head, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67


From nobody Tue Jul 30 08:44:13 2019
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te-06: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-xaf-te/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sec 1: "This document updates [RFC5786] so that a router can also announce
   one or more local X-AF addresses using the corresponding Local
   Address sub-TLV.  Routers using the Node Attribute TLV [RFC5786] can
   include non-TE enabled interface addresses in their OSPF TE
   advertisements, and also use the same sub-TLVs to carry X-AF
   information, facilitating the mapping described above."
I wonder if this text should use normative language (s/can/MAY/) as this is the
part that actually updates RFC5786, however, I didn't check the exact wording
in RFC5786...



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From: Derek Yeung <derek@arrcus.com>
To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] WGLC: draft-ietf-isis-yang-isis-cfg (and remaining IPR replies)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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On June 27, 2019 at 8:36:46 AM, stephane.litkowski@orange.com (
stephane.litkowski@orange.com) wrote:

Stephane:

Hi!

Sorry it took me while to get to your reply.

Thanks for your comments. We are working on updating the document
accordingly.

Please find some replies inline that may require more discussion.

I have stripped the comments that will be fixed in the next revision.

Just leaving some text with answers.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

...

474         Some parameters like "overload bit" and "route preference" are
not

475         modeled to support a per level configuration.  If an
implementation

476         supports per level configuration for such parameter, this

477         implementation SHOULD augment the current model by adding both

478         level-1 and level-2 containers and SHOULD reuse existing

479         configuration groupings.



[major] "...SHOULD augment the current model by adding both level-1 and
level-2 containers"  What other way would that be done?  I think that
Normative language is not needed in this case.

[SLI] Using YANG there are multiple ways to do things. People may create
new containers, use different namings=E2=80=A6 and we want to keep the mode=
ling
consistency even in the future augmentations.

Ok=E2=80=A6why not use MUST then?  Are there cases where it would be ok to =
not be
consistent?  IOW, the current wording doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee consistency=
=E2=80=A6


...

978            sequence-number-skipped: This notification is sent when the
system

979            receives a PDU with its own system ID and different
contents.  The

980            system has to reissue the LSP with a higher sequence number.



[nit] That's the last thing I would have guessed that this action would
have been called...  Maybe it's just me...

[SLI] This is inherited from RFC4444





982            authentication-type-failure: This notification is sent when
the

983            system receives a PDU with the wrong authentication type
field.



985            authentication-failure: This notification is sent when the
system

986            receives a PDU with the wrong authentication information.



[minor] Why do we need both of these?  Given that they both provide the
same information (including the raw PDU), and that
authentication-type-failure is a specific case of receiving "a PDU with the
wrong authentication information"

[SLI] This is inherited from RFC4444

You used this reply in several places.

Inheriting things from rfc4444 doesn=E2=80=99t mean it is ok=E2=80=A6or the=
 best solution=E2=80=A6

In either case, most are minor comments, so no big deal.  I just want to
make sure that some of the points were considered.

...

1239         feature nsr {

1240           description

1241             "Non-Stop-Routing (NSR) support.";

1242         }



[minor] Reference?

[SLI] NSR is a local well known and deployed mechanism. We may enhance the
description if required, however we cannot really provide a reference.

Yes, please do.  See the description in draft-ietf-ospf-yang.


...

3995         grouping tlv242-router-capabilities {

3996           container router-capabilities {

3997             list router-capability {

3998                 leaf flags {

3999                   type bits {

4000                     bit flooding {

4001                       position 0;

4002                       description

4003                         "If the S bit is set, the IS-IS Router
CAPABILITY

4004                          TLV MUST be flooded across the entire routing

4005                          domain. If the S bit is clear, the TLV MUST
NOT

4006                          be leaked between levels. This bit MUST NOT

4007                           be altered during the TLV leaking.";

4008                     }



[major] This is a description of the behavior (copied from rfc7981!), not a
description of the field.

[SLI] Yes, but this provides an accurate description on the conditions of
the flag setting.

But this document is not Normative in the behavior above=E2=80=A6. If anyth=
ing,
Normative language should not be used unless making it clear that it is a
direct quote.

...

4540         notification lsp-too-large {

4541           uses notification-instance-hdr;

4542           uses notification-interface-hdr;



4544           leaf pdu-size {

4545             type uint32;

4546             description "Size of the LSP PDU";

4547           }

4548           leaf lsp-id {

4549             type lsp-id;

4550             description "LSP ID";



4552           }

4553           description

4554             "This notification is sent when we attempt to propagate

4555              an LSP that is larger than the dataLinkBlockSize for the

4556              circuit.  The notification generation must be throttled

4557              with at least 5 seconds between successive

4558              notifications.";

4559         }


...

[major] "must be throttled"  Why is this text not Normative?  It seems to
me that throttling is a good practice...in fact, it may be a good idea to
specify it for all notifications.  There are 12 total instances of the same
text.

[SLI] The text is mirrored from RFC4444.


I think this was the only =E2=80=9Cmajor=E2=80=9D point what you replied wi=
th rfc4444=E2=80=A6.
Just leaving it here=E2=80=A6. No further comments. ;-)

--0000000000004f0db0058eeb0687
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><font=
 face=3D"Helvetica">On June 27, 2019 at 8:36:46 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:steph=
ane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a> (<a href=3D"mai=
lto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>) wrote=
:</font></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Stephane:</font><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!</font></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Sorry it took me while to get to your rep=
ly.</font></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></fo=
nt></div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><div class=3D"WordSection1"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks for your comments. We are w=
orking on updating the document accordingly.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please find some replies inline tha=
t may require more discussion.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">I have stripped the comments that will be fixed i=
n the next revision.</span></p></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote=
></div><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">Just leaving some text with answers.</fo=
nt></p><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks!</font></p><p><font face=3D"Helve=
tica">Alvaro.</font></p><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div=
><font face=3D"Helvetica">...<br></font><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"=
clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">474<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0 Some parameters like &quot;overload bit&=
quot; and &quot;route preference&quot; are not</p><div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">475<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 modeled=
 to support a per level configuration.=C2=A0 If an implementation</p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">476<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
</span>=C2=A0 supports per level configuration for such parameter, this</p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">477<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></span>=C2=A0 implementation SHOULD augment the current model by addi=
ng both</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">478<span class=3D"apple-tab-sp=
an">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 level-1 and level-2 containers and SHOULD reu=
se existing</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">479<span class=3D"apple-ta=
b-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 configuration groupings.</p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[major] &q=
uot;...SHOULD augment the current model by adding both level-1 and level-2 =
containers&quot; =C2=A0What other way would that be done?=C2=A0 I think tha=
t Normative language is not needed in this case.</p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[SLI] Using YANG there are =
multiple ways to do things. People may create new containers, use different=
 namings=E2=80=A6 and we want to keep the modeling consistency even in the =
future augmentations.</span></p></div></div></font></div></div></span></blo=
ckquote></div></div><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">Ok=E2=80=A6why not use MUST=
 then?=C2=A0 Are there cases where it would be ok to not be consistent?=C2=
=A0 IOW, the current wording doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee consistency=E2=80=A6=
</font></p><p><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></p><p><font face=3D"Helv=
etica">...</font></p><div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clea=
n_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font fac=
e=3D"Helvetica">978<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sequence-number-skipped: This =
notification is sent when the system</font></p></div></div></span></blockqu=
ote></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div lang=3D"=
EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div c=
lass=3D"WordSection1"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
979<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0re=
ceives a PDU with its own system ID and different contents.=C2=A0 The</p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">980<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0system has to reissue the LSP with a higher s=
equence number.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">[nit] That&#39;s the last thing I would have guessed =
that this action would have been called...=C2=A0 Maybe it&#39;s just me...<=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[SLI] This i=
s inherited from RFC4444</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">982<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0authentication-type-failure: This notification is sent when the</p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">983<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0system receives a PDU with the wrong authenti=
cation type field.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">985<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication-failure: This notification is sent w=
hen the system</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">986<span class=3D"apple=
-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0receives a PDU with the w=
rong authentication information.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[minor] Why do we need both of the=
se?=C2=A0 Given that they both provide the same information (including the =
raw PDU), and that authentication-type-failure is a specific case of receiv=
ing &quot;a PDU with the wrong authentication information&quot;<span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(31,73,125)">[SLI] This is inherited from RFC4444</span></p></div>=
</font></div></div></span></blockquote></div></div><p><font face=3D"Helveti=
ca">You used this reply in several places. =C2=A0</font></p><p><font face=
=3D"Helvetica">Inheriting things from rfc4444 doesn=E2=80=99t mean it is ok=
=E2=80=A6or the best solution=E2=80=A6</font></p><p><font face=3D"Helvetica=
">In either case, most are minor comments, so no big deal.=C2=A0 I just wan=
t to make sure that some of the points were considered.</font></p><div><div=
><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica">..=
.<br></font><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div lang=3D"EN-=
US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div clas=
s=3D"WordSection1"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">123=
9<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 feature nsr {</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">1240<span class=
=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">1241<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Non-Stop-Routing (NSR) support.&quot;;</p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">1242<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 }</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">[minor] Reference?</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[SLI] NSR is a local well known and deploy=
ed mechanism. We may enhance the description if required, however we cannot=
 really provide a reference.</span></p></div></font></div></div></span></bl=
ockquote></div><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">Yes, please do.=C2=A0 See the de=
scription in=C2=A0draft-ietf-ospf-yang.</font></p><p><font face=3D"Helvetic=
a"><br></font></p><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font></p><div><div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;w=
hite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue"=
 vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"WordSection1=
"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">3995<span class=3D"a=
pple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 grouping =
tlv242-router-capabilities {</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">3996<span=
 class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 container router-capa=
bilities {</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">3997<span class=3D"apple-ta=
b-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 list router-capability {</p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">3998<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf flags {</p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">3999<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type bits {</p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">4000<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span c=
lass=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bit flooding {</p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">4001<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span c=
lass=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 position 0;</p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">4002<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">4003<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;If the S =
bit is set, the IS-IS Router CAPABILITY</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">4004<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D=
"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TLV MUST be flooded across the=
 entire routing</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4005<span class=3D"app=
le-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0domain. If the S bit is clear, the TLV MUST NOT</p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4006<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0be leaked between levels. This bit MUST NOT</p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">4007<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span c=
lass=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be altered during the =
TLV leaking.&quot;;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4008<span class=3D=
"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 }</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">[major] This is a description of the behavior (copied from r=
fc7981!), not a description of the field.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[SLI] Yes, but this provides an ac=
curate description on the conditions of the flag setting.</span></p></div><=
/font></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">But=
 this document is not Normative in the behavior above=E2=80=A6. If anything=
, Normative language should not be used unless making it clear that it is a=
 direct quote.</font></p><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><di=
v><font face=3D"Helvetica">...<br></font><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" cla=
ss=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><font face=3D"Helveti=
ca"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4540<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 notification lsp-too-large {</=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4541<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses notification-instance-hdr;</p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">4542<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 uses notification-interface-hdr;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">=C2=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4544<span class=3D"apple-tab-=
span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf pdu-size {</p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">4545<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 type uint32;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4546<span class=3D=
"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description &quot;Size =
of the LSP PDU&quot;;</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4547<span class=
=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">4548<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
leaf lsp-id {</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4549<span class=3D"apple=
-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type lsp-id;</p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4550<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description &quot;LSP ID&quot;;</p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4552<span class=
=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">4553<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
description</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4554<span class=3D"apple-t=
ab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;This notification is sen=
t when we attempt to propagate</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4555<sp=
an class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an LSP=
 that is larger than the dataLinkBlockSize for the</p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">4556<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0circuit.=C2=A0 The notification generation must be throttl=
ed</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4557<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
</span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with at least 5 seconds between su=
ccessive</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4558<span class=3D"apple-tab-=
span">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notifications.&quot;;</p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">4559<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">...</p></div></font></div></div></span></blockquote></d=
iv><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-var=
iant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div lang=3D"EN=
-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div cla=
ss=3D"WordSection1"><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">[major] &quot;must be throttled&quot; =C2=A0Why is this text not Normati=
ve?=C2=A0 It seems to me that throttling is a good practice...in fact, it m=
ay be a good idea to specify it for all notifications.=C2=A0 There are 12 t=
otal instances of the same text.</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[SLI] The text is mirrored from RFC4444.</s=
pan></p></div></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p><font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></p><p><font face=3D"Helvetica">I think this w=
as the only =E2=80=9Cmajor=E2=80=9D point what you replied with rfc4444=E2=
=80=A6. Just leaving it here=E2=80=A6. No further comments. ;-)</font></p><=
/div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"></div></body></=
html>

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Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1147720] Early Allocation Request for "Dynamic Flooding on Dense Graphs" - draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding-03
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Hi all, 

Since this document is requesting early allocations for multiple registries with different registration procedures, we'll create separate tickets for the allocations and keep you posted on their progress. 

If you have any questions, please let us know.

Best regards, 

Sabrina Tanamal
Senior IANA Services Specialist

On Mon Jul 22 21:06:49 2019, acee@cisco.com wrote:
> The authors of the subject draft have requested early IANA allocation
> of the IANA code-points defined in the draft. The LSR chairs and
> approved the request and are now requesting early allocation.  Alvaro
> (copied) will confirm his approval.
> 
> Thanks,
> Acee Lindem
> LSR Co-Chair


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--_000_A0DA18226C6849609EE3CAEE8ADEF6F9ciscocom_--


From nobody Wed Jul 31 16:51:37 2019
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From: "Sabrina Tanamal via RT" <iana-prot-param@iana.org>
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Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1148306] Early allocations for draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding (Standards Action, IETF Review registries)
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Hi all, 

These early allocations are complete: 

link-attribute bit values for sub-TLV 19 of TLV 22 (Extended IS reachability TLV)

0x4	Local Edge Enabled for Flooding (LEEF) (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]

Please see
https://www.iana.org/assignments/isis-tlv-codepoints

OSPF Router Information (RI) TLVs

17	OSPF Area Leader Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]
18	OSPF Dynamic Flooding Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]

Please see
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-parameters

Opaque Link-State Advertisements (LSA) Option Types

10	OSPFv2 Dynamic Flooding Opaque LSA (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]

Please see
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-opaque-types

OSPFv3 LSA Function Codes

16	OSPFv3 Dynamic Flooding LSA (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]

Please see
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospfv3-parameters

OSPFv2 Extended Link TLV Sub-TLVs

21	OSPFv2 Link Attributes Bits Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]

Please see
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospfv2-parameters

OSPFv3 Extended-LSA Sub-TLVs

10	OSPFv3 Link Attributes Bits Sub-TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2019-07-31, expires 2020-07-31)	[draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding]

Please see
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospfv3-parameters

If this document hasn't been approved for publication by July 2020, we'll contact you about approving a one-year renewal. Any further renewals would require IESG approval.

Best regards,

Sabrina Tanamal
Senior IANA Services Specialist


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "iana-prot-param@iana.org" <iana-prot-param@iana.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding@ietf.org>, "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [IANA #1148306] Early allocations for draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding (Standards Action, IETF Review registries)
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Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1148306] Early allocations for draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding (Standards Action, IETF Review registries)
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