From nobody Wed Jul 1 02:19:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CBCF3A0CAB for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 02:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6LuonZHZnB65 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 02:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85B513A0CA9 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 02:19:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7913; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1593595141; x=1594804741; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aiCaaxBDTmN8SMlQSizAJIzS7DaQWWnngyJysuFf738=; b=iunODhBKJVcY5wjqT9bCKHEgfLOiliLoQA+fXzybafMx3SrLgq4LdYtd y/tj/QyHWdD6vs2NDB0/7dUdBiInLr+oFd+Z7U1jhM3La1PrJhS26c6uE UQZFKSbQ5zQSkjBXP6NEfCqBmNQjPoo9JXJry09Upr6TccQiNB/uJC0Wb Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BqAABOVPxe/xbLJq1gGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDAQEBARIBAQEBAgIBAQEBQIFKgxlUASASLIQxiQGIEJocgWgLAQEBDhg?= =?us-ascii?q?LDAQBAYRHAoIUJTgTAgMBAQsBAQUBAQECAQYEbYVbDIVuAQEBAwEBASEVNhs?= =?us-ascii?q?LFQMCAiMDAgInHxEGAQwGAgEBgyIBglwgD607doEyhVGDaYE6BoEOKotKgTi?= =?us-ascii?q?BQT+BESeCaT6CXAEBAgGBJwESAU2CaoJgBI8GiyqaUoJmgwaFQ5BtBQcDHYJ?= =?us-ascii?q?ziS6Eeo1/kVSKG5RrgWoiZnAzGggbFTuCaVAZDZcjhUQ/AzACATQCBggBAQM?= =?us-ascii?q?JkD4BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,299,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="27574198" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 01 Jul 2020 09:18:57 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 0619IusO000828; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:18:57 GMT To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, "lsr@ietf.org" References: <29170_1593528782_5EFB51CE_29170_59_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EBC1F2@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <575ebb7e-c25d-83af-8b64-c67e7604278f@cisco.com> <25444_1593533320_5EFB6388_25444_20_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EBC8B6@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <71c9bdb6-4574-6d81-6b41-8ee85371c65b@cisco.com> <20180_1593535185_5EFB6AD1_20180_108_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EBCC12@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <47b83ffc-ef1e-a7b6-aa39-93e4b0504cf4@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 11:18:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180_1593535185_5EFB6AD1_20180_108_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EBCC12@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 09:19:04 -0000 Hi Bruno, please see inline: On 30/06/2020 18:39, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > Hi Peter, > >> From: Peter Psenak [mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com] >> >> Hi Bruno, >> >> On 30/06/2020 18:08, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: >>> Hi Peter, >>> >>> Thanks for your reply. >>> >>>> From: Peter Psenak [mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com] >>>> >>>> Hi Bruno, >>>> >>>> please see inline: >>>> >>>> On 30/06/2020 16:53, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I can live with the current text, but I'm just raising the point for >> discussion >>>> (better safe than sorry). >>>>> >>>>> "16.1.1. IGP Algorithm Types Registry >>>>> >>>>> This document makes the following registrations in the "IGP Algorithm >>>> Types" registry: >>>>> >>>>> Type: 128-255. >>>>> >>>>> Description: Flexible Algorithms. >>>>> " >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-07#section-16.1.1 >>>>> >>>>> This is essentially burning half of the registry for flex-algo. Indeed, any >>>> network operator could use any value, e.g. 222, hence the IETF could >> never >>>> define a different usage for this value without creating interop issues for >> the >>>> network operator. >>>> >>>> what is the real problem? Is the space 2-127 that is free not sufficient >>>> for other standardized algorithms that may come? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> We could discuss whether we really need 127 values for this. (i.e. a >>>> network operator requiring 127 flex algo, typically multiplying its IGP FIB >>>> entries by 127...). >>>> >>>> above is not necessarily true and more importantly completely irrelevant >>>> to the number of algos we reserve for FA. >>>> >>>> >>>>> We could also discuss whether this range could be change to the IANA >> well- >>>> known "Private Use" [1]. This would allow for alternative private usages in >>>> the future (e.g. Flexible Alorithms v2). >>>>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8126#section-4.1 >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that the latter would equally work for flex algo, but >> would >>>> provide more flexibility :-) for the future. >>>> >>>> I don't think so. We need an allocated range of algos for FA for >>>> compatibility. >>> >>> The allocated range of algos for FA would be the same. Just not dedicated >> to FA. >> >> this would not work. If I have a mix of routers, one set using value 222 >> for flex-algo and another set for something else, how are they going to >> interoperate? > > My understanding is that the value of the flexalgo is chosen by the network operator and configured on the router. > > " We want the mapping between the Flex-Algorithm and it's meaning to be flexible and defined by the user." > [...] > " Flexible-Algorithm is a numeric identifier in the range 128-255 that > is associated via provisioning with the Flexible-Algorithm > Definition." > > > IOW, "private or local use only, with the type and > purpose defined by the local site. No attempt is made to prevent > multiple sites from using the same value in different (and > incompatible) ways. IANA does not record assignments from registries > or ranges with this policy (and therefore there is no need for IANA > to review them) and assignments are not generally useful for broad > interoperability. It is the responsibility of the sites making use > of the Private Use range to ensure that no conflicts occur (within > the intended scope of use)." > > Which is the definition of Private Use by IANA. > > >> We need a standardized range, using Private Use is not an option here. > > Yes we need a standardized range. > I'm not sure that this range needs to be dedicated to FA. But I leave this to you/the WG. for flex-algos the definition of the algo comes from the FAD. For correct operation one need to ensure that the algo definition comes from a common source. If half of the routers follow FAD for algo 222 and other half takes the definition somewhere else, things would break. We basically need to ensure that for the algos reserved for FA, the definition comes only from FAD. thanks, Peter > > And thanks again for your active engagement in the discussion. > > -- Bruno > >> thanks, >> Peter >> >>> >>> --Bruno >>> >>>> >>>> thanks, >>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> --Bruno >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >> __________________________________________________________ >>>> _____ >>>>> >>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu >> ce >>>> message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages >>>> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme >> ou >>>> falsifie. Merci. >>>>> >>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >>>> information that may be protected by law; >>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and >> delete >>>> this message and its attachments. >>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >> been >>>> modified, changed or falsified. >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> __________________________________________________________ >> _____ >>> >>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce >> message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages >> electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou >> falsifie. Merci. >>> >>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >> information that may be protected by law; >>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete >> this message and its attachments. >>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been >> modified, changed or falsified. >>> Thank you. >>> >>> >>> > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > > From nobody Wed Jul 1 12:03:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8B83A0C54; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:03:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: acee@cisco.com, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, The IESG , lsr@ietf.org, Acee Lindem , rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, draft-ietf-isis-te-app@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159363018402.8848.14922431400856042346@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 12:03:04 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Protocol Action: 'IS-IS Application-Specific Link Attributes' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-isis-te-app-19.txt) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 19:03:13 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'IS-IS Application-Specific Link Attributes' (draft-ietf-isis-te-app-19.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Link State Routing Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Martin Vigoureux and Deborah Brungard. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-te-app/ Technical Summary This document specifies extensions to ISIS to specify encoding for application specific link attributes. This will support both different attributes for applications and limiting the usage of attributes to specific applications. Backward compatibility considerations are also discussed. Working Group Summary There was initial objection to this work and the requirement for application specific attributes. However, after considerable debate, consensus was reached on the the document. Document Quality This document has been a WG document for a multiple years. It is stable, without changes to the technical solution and only clarifications. Personnel Acee Lindem is the Document Shepherd. Alvaro Retana is the Responsible Area Director. From nobody Wed Jul 1 12:04:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1BC3A0DAD; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:04:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: draft-ietf-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse@ietf.org, Acee Lindem , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, yingzhen.qu@futurewei.com, The IESG , rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, Yingzhen Qu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159363028004.8291.3919982214523477566@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 12:04:40 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Protocol Action: 'OSPF Application-Specific Link Attributes' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-16.txt) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 19:04:49 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'OSPF Application-Specific Link Attributes' (draft-ietf-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-16.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Link State Routing Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Martin Vigoureux and Deborah Brungard. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse/ Technical Summary This document specifies extensions to OSPF to specify encoding for application specific link attributes. This will support both different attributes for applications and limiting the usage of attributes to specific applications. Backward compatibility considerations are also discussed. Working Group Summary Initially, there was a lot of debate as to whether or not this was required as some argued it could be done by just using the the MPLS and GMPLS TE encodings for other applications. After much debate consensus was reached. Document Quality This document has been a WG document for a multiple years. It is stable, without changes to the technical solution and only clarifications. Personnel Yingzhen Qu is the Document Shepherd. Alvaro Retana is the Responsible Area Director. 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X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07023A0D85 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BPVZcDC8Lrau for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4BCB3A0D82 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A581E0C99; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 21:10:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id 97FC32036D; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 21:10:43 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:10:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:10:46 -0000 Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead? Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. Best regards, Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, > I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit and TLV > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the respective > registries in the IANA section (included below for info). > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 > IETF Review > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter (copied). > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and AD > approval. > Thanks, > Acee > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > wrote: ts > > Hello Acee/Chris, > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for this > draft. > > Thanks, > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 > To: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > 01.txt > > Hi All, > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward to > review and feedback. > > Thanks, > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lsr On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar > Peter Psenak > Albert Fu > Rajesh M > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2020-06-30 > > Abstract: > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an OSPF > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of "strict- > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both > OSPF > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency formation > will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully > established. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- > mode-01 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > 01 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > 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h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bg9MQKZ1td7YoRP6VSZCjPE3v92icb1v7kzNErLXB4o=; b=DknftUctESavIine9EnSecbc3pmw39wquSGFpZhIIkE/pSn2Kf9QvAbrXDPeswiCIr 56uo0sWpA29jNn1BNtwLO75rv9amqNWB88rEAHWf0S1wLqFd7EmH6ub5KTLmyXJplfWb Qi9i5671Jihb+S2n4nE6goxgzAV6qi6Jk/8Iahpf8j6wPwMcLHG68aJBhDECaQLNFerR mgq+ZTOW/kxR/Jx6ue0dGWDEm2OCSqe0FPybe42qbE51pjXfZ5Bk+8cFtJ9rfZVQ4ZkZ CXFEme15H214WHaO9c/0isphUquRdzqpr4uiu89skTzdVWdtGSuHrXfHw5M4zYFIiiGY 8/GQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5329kv6g01wDFjBtlbTp6x4BxFuTNBuU76/UQh1Msp9E6gEDcrLH /i9JkAPAw9aBjymlenkC1gnEWWdosgX+Snykdr4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw55ESI9S4j0RZAuzcDFV1kIJ0uxZ7yZ2GDAgVVwqxc0Kg/CLzoiCk9DaM7EKje1sRn0CnKeJQG6IYl/uB3DZ0= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:acc3:: with SMTP id v186mr30142225wme.79.1593643595517; Wed, 01 Jul 2020 15:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 15:46:35 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 15:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: acee@cisco.com, iana-prot-param@iana.org Cc: gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, ppsenak@cisco.com, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068d45e05a969105e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 22:46:38 -0000 --00000000000068d45e05a969105e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Amanda; Hi! Yes, I approve. Thanks! Alvaro. On July 1, 2020 at 5:11:01 PM, Amanda Baber via RT (iana-prot-param@iana.org) wrote: Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? --00000000000068d45e05a969105e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Amanda;

Hi!

Yes, I approve.

Th= anks!
--00000000000068d45e05a969105e-- From nobody Wed Jul 1 16:20:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D950B3A1177 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQTMZ8Haq0L4 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C13E73A114C for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97095E0D90; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 23:20:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id 92A1C2036D; Wed, 1 Jul 2020 23:20:39 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 23:20:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2020 23:20:41 -0000 Hi Alvaro, Sorry, I asked you to approve the wrong registration! Can you approve "Local Interface IPv4 Address TLV" (suggested value 21) in the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registry? Also, should "TLV" be removed from the name of the registration? It looks like it's included about half the time. https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01#section-7 thanks, Amanda On Wed Jul 01 22:46:55 2020, aretana.ietf@gmail.com wrote: > Amanda; > > Hi! > > Yes, I approve. > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > On July 1, 2020 at 5:11:01 PM, Amanda Baber via RT (iana-prot- > param@iana.org) > wrote: > > > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B- > bit in > the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at > https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? From nobody Thu Jul 2 00:41:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1433A0DE8 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AN3n9w9ZwCHI for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 00:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 095BD3A0DE5 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 00:41:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5640; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1593675667; x=1594885267; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L3oVWBRzt1pApZ1W2g8U0fwdnk2LJXusYlGzqTsSU5Q=; b=NFrVFQO3/nNZQQapP97KBWgVsEbIW59EIozzFPM1Fxztk84SOV5s0Wt5 ol7GYJkJdFondPZyBVkYFv993v3gDwlWPmx1PPyih5Wb2+C0CF9eGpPsm Dkro9Yfa+BtrLnaet47wUd5ixbMCZe2xGlsA+/e4K8WIQwR9Jho2IBJ0P 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,303,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="27601982" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 02 Jul 2020 07:41:04 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 0627f43j021142; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:41:04 GMT To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "iana-prot-param@iana.org" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" , "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" References: From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 09:41:03 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 07:41:09 -0000 Hi Ketan, Acee, On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Amanda, > > On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" wrote: > > Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, > > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? > > Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead? I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding. thanks, Peter > > Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling yet. > > Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. > > Fine - Thanks, > Acee > > Best regards, > > Amanda Baber > Lead IANA Services Specialist > > On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: > > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, > > I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit and TLV > > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the respective > > registries in the IANA section (included below for info). > > > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - > > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) > > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 > > IETF Review > > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 > > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) > > > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter (copied). > > > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and AD > > approval. > > Thanks, > > Acee > > > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > > wrote: ts > > > > Hello Acee/Chris, > > > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for this > > draft. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 > > To: lsr@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > > 01.txt > > > > Hi All, > > > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward to > > review and feedback. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lsr On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. > > > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD > > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar > > Peter Psenak > > Albert Fu > > Rajesh M > > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > > Pages : 10 > > Date : 2020-06-30 > > > > Abstract: > > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an OSPF > > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding > > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local > > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of "strict- > > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both > > OSPF > > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency formation > > will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully > > established. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- > > mode-01 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > > 01 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > > > > From nobody Thu Jul 2 00:49:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69F13A0CF6 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 00:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=WTr3mKh+; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=hLC0YXAm Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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15.20.3153.027; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:49:13 +0000 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "iana-prot-param@iana.org" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" , "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" Thread-Topic: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode Thread-Index: AdZOvJphiEqpCRGrRreDXVO5TOha+wBAONOAAAuluYD//8C7AIAA72GA///93jA= Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:49:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [49.36.52.93] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8118c011-cfd9-4594-2ab0-08d81e5c69f4 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L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHNyDQogICAgPiAgICAgID4NCiAgICA+IA0KICAgID4gDQogICAg PiANCiAgICA+IA0KDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Jul 2 07:01:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFE03A0821 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:01:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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-0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:01:22 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:01:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: acee@cisco.com, iana-prot-param@iana.org Cc: ppsenak@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ffee4105a975d777" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 14:01:27 -0000 --000000000000ffee4105a975d777 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I approve=E2=80=A6 :-) On July 1, 2020 at 7:20:40 PM, Amanda Baber via RT (iana-prot-param@iana.or= g) wrote: Hi Alvaro, Sorry, I asked you to approve the wrong registration! Can you approve "Local Interface IPv4 Address TLV" (suggested value 21) in the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registry? Also, should "TLV" be removed from the name of the registration? It looks like it's included about half the time. https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01#section-= 7 thanks, Amanda --000000000000ffee4105a975d777 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
I approve=E2=80=A6 :-)

On July 1, 2020 at 7:20:40 PM, Amanda Baber via RT (iana-prot-param@iana.org) wrote:

Hi Alva= ro,

Sorry, I asked you to approve the wrong registration! =20

Can you approve "Local Interface IPv4 Address TLV" (suggested= value 21) in the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registr= y?

Also, should "TLV" be removed from the name of the registrati= on? It looks like it's included about half the time.

https://www.= iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-stric= t-mode-01#section-7

thanks,
Amanda=C2=A0
 --000000000000ffee4105a975d777-- From nobody Thu Jul 2 07:04:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513C93A081C for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nMeifN8_Mmoy for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5B403A0817 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id f7so25575766wrw.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2020 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fL0jbnI5NjYBOlwunTUQHNBIIxEAusf+4+Zsf8n8z90=; b=nnLcsarpzT8JOMku8jVVfh20UvHGg4PINqkzklCXmDGsgsV11omgZ9Z19mz8iAX2/+ 1O6fQtxwAC20yWk5nY075geDVOqM1JMzZhTBAYHOBteHoK8Y9U5z/sX8u15dIQU+q7eq ULg5BPvvZOFMIAuj8hD4c0CUm2TvKDT6eGa5LRy6CxPMYaRWMv1J62iXlpUi5SwlPeZA wHhX3D+Nh05JByoC5we4coYzvQwbY/Yhhfde6o8m0kAqvt4UaJvBbweTloyYhiPhPz/O leXrJjIAxxL+zjJAys9XfF8GeRUWjrxU+gYAQz34uOQl0Qw6M081iaQ2RcasHBi/k4oA QLbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fL0jbnI5NjYBOlwunTUQHNBIIxEAusf+4+Zsf8n8z90=; b=ri/xLVnKLSqKKqLoD43MXuoEPhao/DEX1X+I27vbadsAwB7a77CAvI3fOgZtB8t1cA SFnBy3OyJTsqXN+UFLAq72sUxS7RSOLL0AeWlFjuYZBiO+r+ywzKJxpQUWYil+Yzwh55 LeoViq5x0wu/hmdevkGeWg8JOUDc3PcaZlzw7nKKGKF5HBd/gEpQfg3DyC4FXd6bJ5Fi Sq+xTAXJX8dkEv5KYwNXKQbQr4ay6fPXMkkOSW7yKZEWGetzjC4hnL7ljsfAYOgkoJ56 zKaCKaZYOAUxYQr/B4babs/t0FS0n/6VxqG2e6pRVONz0k9mx70eS3vX9mfX6S/jrslO PVkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LJAxqHdgW/FKzpAnfkKwtQ2Ed09FK/2tBIsVR/NikH786Oud5 xFxUt2ccPkzKKCxqZstBGcfpw4F+COwBkBwa9ds= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzOl2fSFi5P+IKBlUdeKwiktYcyMRAahsGRraU9d8knj44CX9WdzyjhIy/CH4K2JRuaXiEOAOmNyPkXSXO3RuE= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4bc8:: with SMTP id l8mr31211067wrt.159.1593698682060; Thu, 02 Jul 2020 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:04:41 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <3A3F919B-5FBE-4BEB-B0B1-894609A55563@cisco.com> References: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> <3A3F919B-5FBE-4BEB-B0B1-894609A55563@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:04:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , "iana-prot-param@iana.org" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" Cc: "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2c77b05a975e361" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 14:04:47 -0000 --000000000000d2c77b05a975e361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Acee: Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding? Thanks! Alvaro. On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) ( acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote: Right - the in-progress dynamic flooding implementations are IS-IS rather than OSPF. I agree that moving the OSPF dynamic flooding is safter. Thanks, Acee =EF=BB=BFOn 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" = wrote: +1 -----Original Message----- From: Peter Psenak Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11 To: Acee Lindem (acee) ; iana-prot-param@iana.org Cc: lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ; gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; alvaro.retana@futurewei.com Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode Hi Ketan, Acee, On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Amanda, > > On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" wrote: > > Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, > > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? > > Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead? I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding. thanks, Peter > > Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling yet. > > Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. > > Fine - Thanks, > Acee > > Best regards, > > Amanda Baber > Lead IANA Services Specialist > > On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: > > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, > > I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit and TLV > > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the respective > > registries in the IANA section (included below for info). > > > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - > > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) > > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 > > IETF Review > > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 > > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) > > > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter (copied). > > > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and AD > > approval. > > Thanks, > > Acee > > > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > > wrote: ts > > > > Hello Acee/Chris, > > > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for this > > draft. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 > > To: lsr@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > > 01.txt > > > > Hi All, > > > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward to > > review and feedback. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lsr On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. > > > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD > > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar > > Peter Psenak > > Albert Fu > > Rajesh M > > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > > Pages : 10 > > Date : 2020-06-30 > > > > Abstract: > > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an OSPF > > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding > > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local > > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of "strict- > > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both > > OSPF > > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency formation > > will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully > > established. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- > > mode-01 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode= - > > 01 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --000000000000d2c77b05a975e361 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Acee:

Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of = draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding?

Thanks!

Alvaro.

On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM,= Acee Lindem (acee) (a= cee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote:

Right - the in-progress dynam= ic flooding implementations are IS-IS rather than OSPF. I agree that moving= the OSPF dynamic flooding is safter. =20

Thanks,
Acee

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <= ketant@cisco.com> wrote:

+1

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak= @cisco.com> =20
Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@c= isco.com>; iana-prot-par= am@iana.org
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talauli= kar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com&g= t;; gunter.van_de_velde@no= kia.com; alvaro.retana@f= uturewei.com
Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for = draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode

Hi Ketan, Acee,

On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
> Hi Amanda,
> =20
> On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" <iana-prot-param@iana.org> wrot= e:
> =20
> Hi Acee, Alvaro, all,
> =20
> Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registratio= n of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.or= g/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs?
> =20
> Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering = 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding= last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead?

I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-= flooding, so it may be safer to use the
0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 f= or draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding.

thanks,
Peter

> =20
> Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode conf= iguration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling yet.
> =20
> Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a diff= erent registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Li= nk Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send= an expert review request from that ticket.
> =20
> Fine - Thanks,
> Acee
> =20
> Best regards,
> =20
> Amanda Baber
> Lead IANA Services Specialist
> =20
> On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote:
> > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro,
> > I don't see any problem with early allocation of= this LLS bit and TLV
> > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to pu= t the respective
> > registries in the IANA section (included below for i= nfo).
> >
> > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signallin= g (LLS) -
> > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV)
> > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Typ= es) RFC 5613
> > IETF Review
> > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC = 5613
> > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Ve= lde, Peter Psenak)
> >
> > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and = Peter (copied).
> >
> > Please initiate the early allocation process pending= expert and AD
> > approval.
> > Thanks,
> > Acee
> >
> > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)= " <ketant@cisco.com>
> > wrote: ts
> >
> > Hello Acee/Chris,
> >
> > The authors would like to request IANA early allocat= ions for this
> > draft.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
> > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25
> > To: lsr@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-b= fd-strict-mode-
> > 01.txt
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We = look forward to
> > review and feedback.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20
> > To: i-d-ann= ounce@ietf.org
> > Cc: lsr@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-s= trict-mode-01.txt
> >
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line I= nternet-Drafts
> > directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing = WG of the IETF.
> >
> > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD
> > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar
> > Peter Psenak
> > Albert Fu
> > Rajesh M
> > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mod= e-01.txt
> > Pages : 10
> > Date : 2020-06-30
> >
> > Abstract:
> > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF th= at enable an OSPF
> > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectio= nal Forwarding
> > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency format= ion. Link-Local
> > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this require= ment of "strict-
> > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF = adjacency. If both
> > OSPF
> > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" o= f BFD, adjacency formation
> > will be blocked until a BFD session has been succ= essfully
> > established.
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l= sr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/
> >
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-= bfd-strict-mode-01
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i= etf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-
> > mode-01
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-= ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-
> > 01
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes fro= m the time of
> > submission until the htmlized version and diff are a= vailable at
> > tools.ietf.org= .
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP = at:
> > ftp:= //ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lsr mailing list
> > Lsr@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
> >
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20


_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
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= --000000000000d2c77b05a975e361-- From nobody Thu Jul 2 07:24:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293873A0848 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J-_y66mDFNGz for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D69833A084B for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:24:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7251; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1593699862; x=1594909462; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xaEzfNnke6oY7yaimHyHJB56LSmmE761GOs4KOi9DA0=; b=h5JiBPNEtkpF/LjO6Yt+yymeoZZt43GMIE2pEjw5z1NRKeidXFaM5qtR 5g4Qsc0oNVuGJKcOnCGUPXEfgjVVNJoJurunDKiAkZMxaxgwltRcPaZE8 LsMVyblbWw+CCHT84FNf/8Gse+6hfIYvIR3JtDBufadTLgfGkSSKJkFPw g=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,304,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="27614439" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 02 Jul 2020 14:24:19 +0000 Received: from [10.147.24.26] ([10.147.24.26]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 062EOIE1004336; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 14:24:18 GMT To: Alvaro Retana , "iana-prot-param@iana.org" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" Cc: "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" References: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> <3A3F919B-5FBE-4BEB-B0B1-894609A55563@cisco.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:24:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.147.24.26, [10.147.24.26] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 14:24:24 -0000 Hi Alvaro, On 02/07/2020 16:04, Alvaro Retana wrote: > Acee: > > Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of > draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding? I'm one of them and I can confirm for myself. thanks, Peter > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) > (acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > ) wrote: > >> Right - the in-progress dynamic flooding implementations are IS-IS >> rather than OSPF. I agree that moving the OSPF dynamic flooding is >> safter. >> >> Thanks, >> Acee >> >> On 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > > wrote: >> >> +1 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peter Psenak > >> Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11 >> To: Acee Lindem (acee) >; >> iana-prot-param@iana.org >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) >> >; >> gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com ; >> alvaro.retana@futurewei.com >> Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for >> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode >> >> Hi Ketan, Acee, >> >> On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >> > Hi Amanda, >> > >> > On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, >> > >> > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? >> > >> > Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead? >> >> I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of >> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the >> 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for >> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding. >> >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> > >> > Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling yet. >> > >> > Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. >> > >> > Fine - Thanks, >> > Acee >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Amanda Baber >> > Lead IANA Services Specialist >> > >> > On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: >> > > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, >> > > I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit and TLV >> > > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the respective >> > > registries in the IANA section (included below for info). >> > > >> > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - >> > > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) >> > > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 >> > > IETF Review >> > > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 >> > > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) >> > > >> > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter (copied). >> > > >> > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and AD >> > > approval. >> > > Thanks, >> > > Acee >> > > >> > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > >> > > wrote: ts >> > > >> > > Hello Acee/Chris, >> > > >> > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for this >> > > draft. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) >> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 >> > > To: lsr@ietf.org >> > > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- >> > > 01.txt >> > > >> > > Hi All, >> > > >> > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward to >> > > review and feedback. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Lsr > On Behalf Of >> internet-drafts@ietf.org >> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 >> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org >> > > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt >> > > >> > > >> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> > > directories. >> > > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. >> > > >> > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD >> > > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar >> > > Peter Psenak >> > > Albert Fu >> > > Rajesh M >> > > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt >> > > Pages : 10 >> > > Date : 2020-06-30 >> > > >> > > Abstract: >> > > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an OSPF >> > > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding >> > > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local >> > > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of "strict- >> > > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both >> > > OSPF >> > > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency formation >> > > will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully >> > > established. >> > > >> > > >> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/ >> > > >> > > There are also htmlized versions available at: >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01 >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- >> > > mode-01 >> > > >> > > A diff from the previous version is available at: >> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- >> > > 01 >> > > >> > > >> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >> > > tools.ietf.org . >> > > >> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Lsr mailing list >> > > Lsr@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Thu Jul 2 07:38:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E72F3A0937 for ; 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Thu, 02 Jul 2020 07:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:37:56 -0700 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> References: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> <3A3F919B-5FBE-4BEB-B0B1-894609A55563@cisco.com> <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:37:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Peter Psenak , "iana-prot-param@iana.org" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" Cc: "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c389ed05a9765aea" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 14:38:20 -0000 --000000000000c389ed05a9765aea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That was easy! :-) Thanks! Alvaro. On July 2, 2020 at 10:24:20 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@cisco.com) wrote: Hi Alvaro, On 02/07/2020 16:04, Alvaro Retana wrote: > Acee: > > Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of > draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding? I'm one of them and I can confirm for myself. thanks, Peter > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) > (acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > ) wrote: > >> Right - the in-progress dynamic flooding implementations are IS-IS >> rather than OSPF. I agree that moving the OSPF dynamic flooding is >> safter. >> >> Thanks, >> Acee >> >> On 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > > wrote: >> >> +1 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peter Psenak > >> Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11 >> To: Acee Lindem (acee) >; >> iana-prot-param@iana.org >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) >> >; >> gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com ; >> alvaro.retana@futurewei.com >> Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for >> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode >> >> Hi Ketan, Acee, >> >> On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >> > Hi Amanda, >> > >> > On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, >> > >> > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? >> > >> > Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead? >> >> I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of >> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the >> 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for >> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding. >> >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> > >> > Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling yet. >> > >> > Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. >> > >> > Fine - Thanks, >> > Acee >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Amanda Baber >> > Lead IANA Services Specialist >> > >> > On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: >> > > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, >> > > I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit and TLV >> > > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the respective >> > > registries in the IANA section (included below for info). >> > > >> > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - >> > > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) >> > > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 >> > > IETF Review >> > > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 >> > > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) >> > > >> > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter (copied). >> > > >> > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and AD >> > > approval. >> > > Thanks, >> > > Acee >> > > >> > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > >> > > wrote: ts >> > > >> > > Hello Acee/Chris, >> > > >> > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for this >> > > draft. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) >> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 >> > > To: lsr@ietf.org >> > > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- >> > > 01.txt >> > > >> > > Hi All, >> > > >> > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward to >> > > review and feedback. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Lsr > On Behalf Of >> internet-drafts@ietf.org >> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 >> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org >> > > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt >> > > >> > > >> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> > > directories. >> > > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. >> > > >> > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD >> > > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar >> > > Peter Psenak >> > > Albert Fu >> > > Rajesh M >> > > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt >> > > Pages : 10 >> > > Date : 2020-06-30 >> > > >> > > Abstract: >> > > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an OSPF >> > > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding >> > > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local >> > > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of "strict- >> > > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both >> > > OSPF >> > > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency formation >> > > will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully >> > > established. >> > > >> > > >> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/ >> > > >> > > There are also htmlized versions available at: >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01 >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- >> > > mode-01 >> > > >> > > A diff from the previous version is available at: >> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- >> > > 01 >> > > >> > > >> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >> > > tools.ietf.org . >> > > >> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Lsr mailing list >> > > Lsr@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --000000000000c389ed05a9765aea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
That was easy! :-)

Thanks!

Alvaro.

On July 2, 2020 a= t 10:24:20 AM, Peter Psenak (ppsenak@c= isco.com) wrote:

Hi Alvaro,

On 02/07/2020 16:04, Alvaro Retana wrote:
> Acee:
> =20
> Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of =20
> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding?

I'm one of them and I can confirm for myself.

thanks,
Peter


> =20
> Thanks!
> =20
> Alvaro.
> =20
> On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) =20
> (acee=3D40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org =20
> <mailto:acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>) wrote:
> =20
>> Right - the in-progress dynamic flooding implementations are I= S-IS =20
>> rather than OSPF. I agree that moving the OSPF dynamic floodin= g is =20
>> safter.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>
>> On 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <= ketant@cisco.com =20
>> <mailto:ketant@cisco.co= m>> wrote:
>>
>> +1
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Psenak <pp= senak@cisco.com <mailto:ppsenak= @cisco.com>>
>> Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11
>> To: Acee Lindem (acee) <a= cee@cisco.com <mailto:acee@cisco.c= om>>; =20
>> iana-prot-param@ia= na.org <mailto:iana-prot= -param@iana.org>
>> Cc: lsr@ietf.org <mailt= o:lsr@ietf.org>; Ketan Talaulikar (k= etant) =20
>> <ketant@cisco.com &= lt;mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>;= =20
>> gunter.van_de= _velde@nokia.com <mailto:gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>; =20
>> alvaro.retana@f= uturewei.com <mailto:= alvaro.retana@futurewei.com>
>> Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request= for =20
>> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode
>>
>> Hi Ketan, Acee,
>>
>> On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
>> > Hi Amanda, =20
>> > =20
>> > On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" <<= a href=3D"mailto:iana-prot-param@iana.org">iana-prot-param@iana.org <= ;mailto:iana-prot-param@iana.or= g>> wrote:
>> > =20
>> > Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, =20
>> > =20
>> > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registratio= n of the B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at https://www.iana.or= g/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs?
>> > =20
>> > Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering = 0x00000010, but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding= last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 instead? =20
>>
>> I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of =20
>> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the
>> 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000= 020 for =20
>> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Peter
>>
>> > =20
>> > Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode= configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling yet.= =20
>> > =20
>> > Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a diff= erent registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the Li= nk Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. I'll send= an expert review request from that ticket. =20
>> > =20
>> > Fine - Thanks, =20
>> > Acee =20
>> > =20
>> > Best regards, =20
>> > =20
>> > Amanda Baber =20
>> > Lead IANA Services Specialist =20
>> > =20
>> > On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com <mailto:acee@= cisco.com> wrote:
>> > > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, =20
>> > > I don't see any problem with early allocation of= this LLS bit and TLV =20
>> > > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to pu= t the respective =20
>> > > registries in the IANA section (included below for i= nfo). =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signallin= g (LLS) - =20
>> > > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) =20
>> > > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RF= C 5613 =20
>> > > IETF Review =20
>> > > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 =20
>> > > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Ps= enak) =20
>> > > =20
>> > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and = Peter (copied). =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending= expert and AD =20
>> > > approval. =20
>> > > Thanks, =20
>> > > Acee =20
>> > > =20
>> > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)= " <ketant@cisco.com <mai= lto:ketant@cisco.com>>
>> > > wrote: ts =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Hello Acee/Chris, =20
>> > > =20
>> > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocat= ions for this =20
>> > > draft. =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Thanks, =20
>> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) =20
>> > > =20
>> > > -----Original Message----- =20
>> > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) =20
>> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 =20
>> > > To: lsr@ietf.org= <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
>> > > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-b= fd-strict-mode- =20
>> > > 01.txt =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Hi All, =20
>> > > =20
>> > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We = look forward to =20
>> > > review and feedback. =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Thanks, =20
>> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) =20
>> > > =20
>> > > -----Original Message----- =20
>> > > From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of =20
>> internet-drafts@ie= tf.org <mailto:internet-= drafts@ietf.org>
>> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 =20
>> > > To: i-d-ann= ounce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-= announce@ietf.org>
>> > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org= <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>
>> > > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-s= trict-mode-01.txt =20
>> > > =20
>> > > =20
>> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line I= nternet-Drafts =20
>> > > directories. =20
>> > > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing = WG of the IETF. =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD =20
>> > > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar =20
>> > > Peter Psenak =20
>> > > Albert Fu =20
>> > > Rajesh M =20
>> > > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.tx= t =20
>> > > Pages : 10 =20
>> > > Date : 2020-06-30 =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Abstract: =20
>> > > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that = enable an OSPF =20
>> > > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional= Forwarding =20
>> > > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation= . Link-Local =20
>> > > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requiremen= t of "strict- =20
>> > > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adj= acency. If both =20
>> > > OSPF =20
>> > > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of B= FD, adjacency formation =20
>> > > will be blocked until a BFD session has been success= fully =20
>> > > established. =20
>> > > =20
>> > > =20
>> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: = =20
>> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-l= sr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode/
>> > > =20
>> > > There are also htmlized versions available at: =20
>> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-= bfd-strict-mode-01
>> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i= etf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-
>> > > mode-01 =20
>> > > =20
>> > > A diff from the previous version is available at: = =20
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-= ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-
>> > > 01 =20
>> > > =20
>> > > =20
>> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes fro= m the time of =20
>> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are a= vailable at =20
>> > > tools.ietf.org= <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>> > > =20
>> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP = at: =20
>> > > ftp:= //ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> > > =20
>> > > =20
>> > > _______________________________________________ =20
>> > > Lsr mailing list =20
>> > > Lsr@ietf.org <= ;mailto:Lsr@ietf.org>
>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>> > > =20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lsr mailing list
>> Lsr@ietf.org <mailto:Lsr@ietf.org>
>> https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

<= /body> --000000000000c389ed05a9765aea-- From nobody Thu Jul 2 16:48:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE963A086B for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UYADS0TWiN1S for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 149EC3A082D for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7ADDE0589; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 23:48:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id E4A8E2044D; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 23:48:19 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:48:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:48:21 -0000 Hi all, We've added the following early allocation to the Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registry: 21 Local Interface IPv4 Address TLV (TEMPORARY - registered 2020-07-02, expires 2021-07-02) [draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01] If the document hasn't been approved by the IESG by next May, we'll contact you about renewing the allocation. Best regards, Amanda From nobody Thu Jul 2 16:55:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE273A003E for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dqe3sqy8_uqc for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D37FC3A00B0 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 16:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8919E0AA9; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 23:55:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id A560E2019B; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 23:55:44 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> <3A3F919B-5FBE-4BEB-B0B1-894609A55563@cisco.com> <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:55:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:55:47 -0000 Gunter, as the remaining LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags expert, do you agree with the proposal to move the Flooding Request bit registration to 0x00000020 and assign 0x00000010 to this document? For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration is described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication for permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, permanent registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any time. Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation from that registration? thanks, Amanda On Thu Jul 02 14:25:01 2020, ppsenak@cisco.com wrote: > Hi Alvaro, > > On 02/07/2020 16:04, Alvaro Retana wrote: > > Acee: > > > > Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of > > draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding? > > I'm one of them and I can confirm for myself. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) > > (acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > > ) wrote: > > > >> Right - the in-progress dynamic flooding implementations are IS-IS > >> rather than OSPF. I agree that moving the OSPF dynamic flooding is > >> safter. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Acee > >> > >> On 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" >> > wrote: > >> > >> +1 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Peter Psenak > > >> Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11 > >> To: Acee Lindem (acee) >; > >> iana-prot-param@iana.org > >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > >> >; > >> gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com > >> ; > >> alvaro.retana@futurewei.com > >> Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for > >> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode > >> > >> Hi Ketan, Acee, > >> > >> On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > >> > Hi Amanda, > >> > > >> > On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" >> > param@iana.org > wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, > >> > > >> > Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the > >> > B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at > >> > https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? > >> > > >> > Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, > >> > but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding > >> > last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 > >> > instead? > >> > >> I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of > >> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the > >> 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 > >> for > >> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding. > >> > >> thanks, > >> Peter > >> > >> > > >> > Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode > >> > configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling > >> > yet. > >> > > >> > Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different > >> > registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the > >> > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. > >> > I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. > >> > > >> > Fine - Thanks, > >> > Acee > >> > > >> > Best regards, > >> > > >> > Amanda Baber > >> > Lead IANA Services Specialist > >> > > >> > On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com > >> > wrote: > >> > > Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, > >> > > I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit > >> > > and TLV > >> > > - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the > >> > > respective > >> > > registries in the IANA section (included below for info). > >> > > > >> > > Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - > >> > > Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) > >> > > Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 > >> > > IETF Review > >> > > LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 > >> > > Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) > >> > > > >> > > For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter > >> > > (copied). > >> > > > >> > > Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and > >> > > AD > >> > > approval. > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > Acee > >> > > > >> > > On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" > >> > > > > >> > > wrote: ts > >> > > > >> > > Hello Acee/Chris, > >> > > > >> > > The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for > >> > > this > >> > > draft. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > >> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 > >> > > To: lsr@ietf.org > >> > > Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- > >> > > mode- > >> > > 01.txt > >> > > > >> > > Hi All, > >> > > > >> > > This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward > >> > > to > >> > > review and feedback. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Lsr > > >> > > On Behalf Of > >> internet-drafts@ietf.org > >> > > Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 > >> > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >> > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > >> > > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > >> > > 01.txt > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet- > >> > > Drafts > >> > > directories. > >> > > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the > >> > > IETF. > >> > > > >> > > Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD > >> > > Authors : Ketan Talaulikar > >> > > Peter Psenak > >> > > Albert Fu > >> > > Rajesh M > >> > > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt > >> > > Pages : 10 > >> > > Date : 2020-06-30 > >> > > > >> > > Abstract: > >> > > This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an > >> > > OSPF > >> > > router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding > >> > > Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local > >> > > Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of > >> > > "strict- > >> > > mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both > >> > > OSPF > >> > > neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency > >> > > formation > >> > > will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully > >> > > established. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- > >> > > mode/ > >> > > > >> > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- > >> > > 01 > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd- > >> > > strict- > >> > > mode-01 > >> > > > >> > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd- > >> > > strict-mode- > >> > > 01 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time > >> > > of > >> > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >> > > tools.ietf.org . > >> > > > >> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > Lsr mailing list > >> > > Lsr@ietf.org > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Lsr mailing list > >> Lsr@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Thu Jul 2 17:22:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F863A0A21; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 17:20:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: aretana.ietf@gmail.com, lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159373563485.30173.1462866928628002633@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:20:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] lsr - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 108 X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:20:45 -0000 Dear Christian Hopps, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. lsr Session 1 (1:40 requested) Thursday, 30 July 2020, Session III 1410-1550 Room Name: Room 5 size: 5 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/sessions/lsr.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Link State Routing Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Christian Hopps Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 100 Minutes Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: ipsecme idr rtgwg lsvr Technology Overlap: rift spring Key Participant Conflict: bfd bess People who must be present: Martin Vigoureux Christian Hopps Acee Lindem Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jul 3 00:54:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1CF3A08B2 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 00:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mv9ywvK8xdDA for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 00:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0903A3A081B for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 00:54:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8613; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1593762874; x=1594972474; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/EuPa7u3FaKMKg5njX81eHDIqObJoOo/kby2qqM67t4=; b=WOuCk5dtb6uPc+eo12D01GX7nP99+a048zl5A4XCdSHSPwIDTlsvvIsJ nCLXvOr4kGIoX+eqoBXYhXOe9JHJtX2uy6YYFlfwta7RFO/7iSl5dI5Fo KcLlmC6IuqLYfy3EW5Qd2qTKFHzqM5Ypy5I8+F4FezWu0H/RJhf1uSZR8 Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,307,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="27572297" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 03 Jul 2020 07:54:32 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 0637sV58017918; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:54:31 GMT To: iana-prot-param@iana.org, acee@cisco.com Cc: alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, aretana.ietf@gmail.com References: <6da74fed-96c8-8ac2-697c-d3747ef5c3e4@cisco.com> <3A3F919B-5FBE-4BEB-B0B1-894609A55563@cisco.com> <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <3e5340a0-244d-3459-700a-816c19f03fbc@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 09:54:31 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 07:54:44 -0000 Hi Amanda, On 03/07/2020 01:55, Amanda Baber via RT wrote: > Gunter, as the remaining LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags expert, do you agree with the proposal to move the Flooding Request bit registration to 0x00000020 and assign 0x00000010 to this document? > > For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration is described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication for permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, permanent registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any time. Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation from that registration? please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. thanks, Peter > > thanks, > Amanda > > On Thu Jul 02 14:25:01 2020, ppsenak@cisco.com wrote: >> Hi Alvaro, >> >> On 02/07/2020 16:04, Alvaro Retana wrote: >>> Acee: >>> >>> Can you please get positive confirmation from the authors of >>> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding? >> >> I'm one of them and I can confirm for myself. >> >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Alvaro. >>> >>> On July 2, 2020 at 5:50:06 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) >>> (acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org >>> ) wrote: >>> >>>> Right - the in-progress dynamic flooding implementations are IS-IS >>>> rather than OSPF. I agree that moving the OSPF dynamic flooding is >>>> safter. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Acee >>>> >>>> On 7/2/20, 3:49 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Peter Psenak > >>>> Sent: 02 July 2020 13:11 >>>> To: Acee Lindem (acee) >; >>>> iana-prot-param@iana.org >>>> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) >>>> >; >>>> gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com >>>> ; >>>> alvaro.retana@futurewei.com >>>> Subject: Re: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for >>>> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode >>>> >>>> Hi Ketan, Acee, >>>> >>>> On 01/07/2020 23:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >>>>> Hi Amanda, >>>>> >>>>> On 7/1/20, 5:10 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" >>>> param@iana.org > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Acee, Alvaro, all, >>>>> >>>>> Alvaro: can you approve the request for early registration of the >>>>> B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry at >>>>> https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs? >>>>> >>>>> Acee, Ketan: the document says that it's registering 0x00000010, >>>>> but that value was allocated to draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding >>>>> last year. If Alvaro approves, should we register 0x00000020 >>>>> instead? >>>> >>>> I doubt there is any OSPF implementation of >>>> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding, so it may be safer to use the >>>> 0x00000010 for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 >>>> for >>>> draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding. >>>> >>>> thanks, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes. While a few implementations have the BFD strict-mode >>>>> configuration, I don't believe any have shipped the LLS signaling >>>>> yet. >>>>> >>>>> Acee, Ketan, Gunter, Peter: because it's using a different >>>>> registration procedure, I'm creating a separate ticket for the >>>>> Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) registration. >>>>> I'll send an expert review request from that ticket. >>>>> >>>>> Fine - Thanks, >>>>> Acee >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Amanda Baber >>>>> Lead IANA Services Specialist >>>>> >>>>> On Wed Jul 01 19:38:00 2020, acee@cisco.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hi Ketan, IANA, Alvaro, >>>>>> I don't see any problem with early allocation of this LLS bit >>>>>> and TLV >>>>>> - pretty straight forward. It would make sense to put the >>>>>> respective >>>>>> registries in the IANA section (included below for info). >>>>>> >>>>>> Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) Link Local Signalling (LLS) - >>>>>> Type/Length/Value Identifiers (TLV) >>>>>> Link Local Signalling TLV Identifiers (LLS Types) RFC 5613 >>>>>> IETF Review >>>>>> LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags RFC 5613 >>>>>> Expert Review (Expert: Gunter Van De Velde, Peter Psenak) >>>>>> >>>>>> For the flag, the designated experts are Gunter and Peter >>>>>> (copied). >>>>>> >>>>>> Please initiate the early allocation process pending expert and >>>>>> AD >>>>>> approval. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Acee >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/30/20, 4:58 AM, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: ts >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Acee/Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> The authors would like to request IANA early allocations for >>>>>> this >>>>>> draft. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) >>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2020 14:25 >>>>>> To: lsr@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- >>>>>> mode- >>>>>> 01.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is mostly a refresh with editorial updates. We look forward >>>>>> to >>>>>> review and feedback. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Ketan (on behalf of co-authors) >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Lsr > >>>>>> On Behalf Of >>>> internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2020 14:20 >>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>>>> Cc: lsr@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- >>>>>> 01.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet- >>>>>> Drafts >>>>>> directories. >>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the >>>>>> IETF. >>>>>> >>>>>> Title : OSPF Strict-Mode for BFD >>>>>> Authors : Ketan Talaulikar >>>>>> Peter Psenak >>>>>> Albert Fu >>>>>> Rajesh M >>>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01.txt >>>>>> Pages : 10 >>>>>> Date : 2020-06-30 >>>>>> >>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>> This document specifies the extensions to OSPF that enable an >>>>>> OSPF >>>>>> router to signal the requirement for a Bidirectional Forwarding >>>>>> Detection (BFD) session prior to adjacency formation. Link-Local >>>>>> Signaling (LLS) is used to advertise this requirement of >>>>>> "strict- >>>>>> mode" of BFD session establishment for OSPF adjacency. If both >>>>>> OSPF >>>>>> neighbors advertise the "strict-mode" of BFD, adjacency >>>>>> formation >>>>>> will be blocked until a BFD session has been successfully >>>>>> established. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict- >>>>>> mode/ >>>>>> >>>>>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode- >>>>>> 01 >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd- >>>>>> strict- >>>>>> mode-01 >>>>>> >>>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd- >>>>>> strict-mode- >>>>>> 01 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time >>>>>> of >>>>>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >>>>>> tools.ietf.org . >>>>>> >>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Lsr mailing list >>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > From nobody Fri Jul 3 01:25:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B63A08F3; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 01:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5uq8B68_vof3; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 01:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC1F3A08CD; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 01:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CB2060F32; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 08:25:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C0649455-0DA4-4296-9B2A-C8DA58CBC49E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 04:25:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: <02DFE424-3B05-48FC-BA72-B3C905A3DD30@tony.li> Cc: Christian Hopps , Les Ginsberg , Hannes Gredler , "draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy.authors@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" To: Tony Li References: <29A0CD92-1D33-4B06-B0CF-D17BE89A9B60@tony.li> <3276AA3E-F540-41B6-A4DC-4FCD1CD57EFF@tony.li> <02873225-A2F2-4017-913B-742929C668B7@gredler.at> <40DD6A60-D2D6-4C2F-A1B3-E096030749E2@tony.li> <1CC247F3-E7D9-4111-AF8D-3134518BF031@tony.li> <02DFE424-3B05-48FC-BA72-B3C905A3DD30@tony.li> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Comments on Requested Codepoints for draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 08:25:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C0649455-0DA4-4296-9B2A-C8DA58CBC49E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 30, 2020, at 2:33 AM, tony.li@tony.li wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > The authors are on-board with this round of suggestions from Les. = Could I get a review by one more of our Designated Experts before we = update the draft? So: - Top Level Area Proxy TLV - can be used to communicate area proxy capability - can be used to communicate inside node trait - can be used to communicate area proxy system id - Re-use existing SPRING TLVs to communicate Area SID and the early request would be for a single top-level area proxy TLV = code-point? If so, then it aligns with my earlier [wg hat] suggestion as well, and = so looks good to me [de hat]. :) Thanks, Chris. [DE/WG member hats] >=20 > Thanks, > Tony >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 29, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = wrote: >>=20 >> Tony =E2=80=93 >>=20 >> Inline. >>=20 >> From: Tony Li On Behalf Of tony.li@tony.li >> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 2:37 PM >> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) >> Cc: Hannes Gredler ; = draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy.authors@ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Comments on Requested Codepoints for = draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Hi Les, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Jun 29, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = wrote: >>=20 >> Tony =E2=80=93 >>=20 >> OLD: >> 1)Area Proxy Router Capability - sub-TLV of Router Capability TLV >>=20 >> 2)Inside Node TLV - Top level TLV >>=20 >> 3)Area Proxy TLV - Top Level TLV with optional sub-TLVs: >> Sub-TLV Area Proxy System ID >> Sub-TLV Area Segment SID >>=20 >> 4)Area Segment SID - Top Level TLV >>=20 >> NEW: (Please check my interpretation) >>=20 >> 1)Area Proxy Router Capability - sub-TLV of Router Capability TLV >>=20 >> 2)Area Proxy TLV - Top Level TLV with optional sub-TLVs: >> Sub-TLV Area Proxy System ID >> Sub-TLV Area Segment SID >> Sub-TLV Inside Node ??? >>=20 >> 3)Area Segment SID - Top Level TLV >>=20 >> Am I correct so far?? >>=20 >>=20 >> Yes, exactly. Inside node would be a sub-TLV or a flag, TBD. >>=20 >>=20 >> If so, a couple more comments/suggestions: >>=20 >> a)Could the Area Proxy TLV become a bit more generic and allow = advertisement of the capability (implied by presence of the TLV)? >> If so, the Router Capability sub-TLV could go away. >>=20 >>=20 >> Speaking just for myself, ok, that seems reasonable and doable. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> b)If the Area Segment SID is (as you suggest) a generic thing not = specific to Area Proxy, then I would point you to = https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#section-2.4.1 >>=20 >>=20 >> ? Your pointer is to the flags field of the SID/Label Binding TLV. >>=20 >> [Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 as the suggestion would be to add another flag = definition. >>=20 >>=20 >> This allows SIDs to be advertised in the SID Binding TLV for a = special purpose (see the Mirror SID). One could imagine another flag bit = to indicate this is an Area SID. >>=20 >>=20 >> You=E2=80=99re suggesting a bit in the flags, the range would be = unused, and a prefix length of 0? Then the actual SID would be in the = SID/Label sub-TLV? >>=20 >> [Les:]Range could be specified as ignored in this case. Prefix length = would be 0. >> The SID would be =E2=80=93 as you say =E2=80=93 advertised in the = SID/Label sub-TLV =E2=80=93 as with all other SIDs. >>=20 >>=20 >> I think this would need to be vetted with SR folks >>=20 >>=20 >> That will happen, regardless of how we proceed. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =E2=80=93 but I would like to avoid advertising a SID in a way = different from all other SIDs i.e., SIDs currently are always a sub-TLV = of some top level TLV =E2=80=93 whether it be Prefix Reachability = (Prefix-SID), IS Neighbor (Adjacency SID), or Binding SID (Mirror SID). >>=20 >>=20 >> We were trying to extend the current design consistently with = existing SIDs. As the Prefix SID and Adjacency SID were top level, it = made sense to continue that approach. The approach of the Binding SID = TLV would seem to mix all semantics into one encoding and seems = inconsistent and complicated with respect to the other SIDs. If this = was the intent, shouldn=E2=80=99t prefix and adjacency SIDs be encoded = in this TLV as well? >> [Les:] Prefix/adjacency SIDs are sub-TLVs of TLVs 135 and 22 = respectively. >>=20 >> There=E2=80=99s only three available bits (plus one octet) here. = Aren=E2=80=99t we concerned about running out of bits if we go this = direction? >> [Les:] I am not. It is a question of whether SR sees this as a useful = type of SID. If so, it merits a bit. >>=20 >> Les >>=20 >> Tony >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_C0649455-0DA4-4296-9B2A-C8DA58CBC49E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl7+63EACgkQLh2DDte4 MCVcPA//WRbDo23XZhpdnE4fqn2VAzWArzeqe5zGSssZ4vMrPJTNQ8fxVXBXP+Ot 7WUeJVrvi0+5x/BcRrU+KaUWguJ/xbrd67WHlPHKpb84y4Be0h/3vlKfSwUemLUT wGBGWm1BkXqjjzVMkpms+636haq9k2DxrS4HLF/eeb1puoBiivpb3X9ekvdS2+yz CMDSldW87HfxLF36jvnaeAuseoEHaLd43uWyFLH83yJnvy/9e6SzV2e9goQ6ob0l h7FIQB5rGPpJz/Q3AETxPAzn0ltNQbrlvRAl4Mi3XWZVRcpTGBoPAiZl2uE4Jdk6 vQIAsXM7ldPhWwCF/4eRlULHTRBqObC07mpKz+oQgSRlTNkJAbUVh2XescNxeMns b/WdojQTAH/pMmwyMZkIFf5wkgPk8MPJ9l0sj8VKPh/4C7NzS+Vncm7CaZxxVr7Z SEgALxiXnFCH22zU9ZAuAL+MLnxbJ/M9QfGej3M12DTSk0pzR9EG5YyzzLkt1GR5 ezQkwWhnFYjY24NprtmCqnxIPQrSsQ7KphTdRAjQbL90btTQDQ4ISYxzsmcBwL7/ j49X4Cd7a6FyXGmbPvzriAZBLXpwVU8mxvhJCeYKI1n+Bqtp8dRvaOsEvKJtwwmq mBUBPIWMBSlAhI+uD3k80ryus6Qfbt2RArXFUPGkGN1w5Xyuzmw= =q6A7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C0649455-0DA4-4296-9B2A-C8DA58CBC49E-- From nobody Fri Jul 3 19:23:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D523A0A8B for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 19:22:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id en_ekQgIAqH0 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 19:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13AC53A0A9D for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2020 19:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BFFE056D; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id DF95D20415; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:53 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> <3e5340a0-244d-3459-700a-816c19f03fbc@cisco.com> Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2020 02:22:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2020 02:23:03 -0000 Hi Peter, all, > > For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration is > > described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may > > have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation > > procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication for > > permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, permanent > > registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any time. > > Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation > > from that registration? > > please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. The "TEMPORARY" designation has been removed from the draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding registration in LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags, currently still assigned 0x00000010: https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs thanks, Amanda From nobody Sun Jul 5 14:21:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232853A0B2F; Sun, 5 Jul 2020 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159398407108.17799.14195713895569668878@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:21:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-extended-hierarchy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2020 21:21:11 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : IS-IS Extended Hierarchy Authors : Tony Li Les Ginsberg Paul Wells Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-extended-hierarchy-02.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2020-07-05 Abstract: The IS-IS routing protocol was originally defined with a two level hierarchical structure. This was adequate for the networks at the time. As we continue to expand the scale of our networks, it is apparent that additional hierarchy would be a welcome degree of flexibility in network design. This document defines IS-IS Levels 3 through 8. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-extended-hierarchy/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-extended-hierarchy-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-extended-hierarchy-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-isis-extended-hierarchy-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 5 20:45:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D85D3A0E85 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 2020 20:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=U2IYzW+M; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=rSuE8VI9 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8qTwwzd9MZ4 for ; 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Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:45:18 +0000 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: "iana-prot-param@iana.org" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" CC: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" , "acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode Thread-Index: AQHWUaoJIGIEl37QhkiRCkbDgF5Dqqj56/aw Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 03:45:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0785cce7-018f-37de-4366-22f4bb245127@cisco.com> <3e5340a0-244d-3459-700a-816c19f03fbc@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: iana.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iana.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [49.36.52.93] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2275bd10-5ab3-47b1-4394-08d8215f002d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MWHPR11MB0078: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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Mon, 6 Jul 2020 09:16:35 +0000 From: Parag Kaneriya To: "lsr@ietf.org" , SPRING WG Thread-Topic: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of END Point behavior in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdZTdDRIox2bY1ZDTxW01HvnjNwPYA== Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 09:16:35 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-IN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-07-06T09:16:33Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=a60736ff-6705-4189-b6a5-aeb13b1f9620; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: ietf.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am going through recent draft https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-sprin= g-srv6-network-programming-16.pdf Changes are follow , 4.1. End: Endpoint S01. When an SRH is processed { S02. If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) { S03. Proceed to process the next header in the packet, whose type is identi= fied by the Next Header field in the routing header. S04. } S05. If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) { S06. Send an ICMP Time Exceeded message to the Source Address, Code 0 (Hop = limit exceeded in transit), Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet. S07. } With these change, I have below few question 1. Can END SID can be last SID of the SID list ? earlier draft (not su= re which version), it was explicitly mentioned that last SID can't be END s= id ( Most basic flavors ). 2. IF yes then When/Who will remove the SRH header when last sid is END = SID in the sid list. Regards Parag Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB419873DF36A44B9D4B0022D7DF690BYAPR05MB4198namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

 

I am going through recent draft https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-16.pd= f

 

Changes are follow ,

 

4.1. End: Endpoint

 

S01. When an SRH is processed {

S02. If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {

S03. Proceed to process the next header in the packet, who= se type is identified by the Next Header field in the routing header.

S04. }

S05. If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {

S06. Send an ICMP Time Exceeded message to the Source Addr= ess, Code 0 (Hop limit exceeded in transit), Interrupt packet processing an= d discard  

     the packet.

S07. }

 

 

With these change, I have below few question

 

  1. = Can END SID can be last SID of the SID list ?   earlier draft (no= t sure which version), it was explicitly mentioned that last SID can’t be END sid ( Most basic flavors ).
    2. <= li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 l= fo1">I= F yes then When/Who will remove the SRH header when last sid is END SID in = the sid list.

 

Regards

Parag


Juniper Business= Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB419873DF36A44B9D4B0022D7DF690BYAPR05MB4198namp_-- From nobody Mon Jul 6 07:33:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280D53A1578; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 07:33:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159404602912.1278.3936383032031378252@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 07:33:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-00.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 14:33:49 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : IS-IS Flood Reflection Authors : Tony Przygienda Chris Bowers Yiu Lee Alankar Sharma Russ White Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-00.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-07-06 Abstract: This document describes an optional ISIS extension that allows the creation of IS-IS flood reflection topologies. Flood reflection allows the creation of topologies where L1 areas provide transit forwarding for L2 destinations within an L2 topology. It accomplishes this by creating L2 flood reflection adjacencies within each L1 area. The L2 flood reflection adjacencies are used to flood L2 LSPDUs, and they are used in the L2 SPF computation. However, they are not used for forwarding. This arrangement gives the L2 topology better scaling properties. In addition, only those routers directly participating in flood reflection have to support the feature. This allows for the incremental deployment of scalable L1 transit areas in an existing network, without the necessity of upgrading other routers in the network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 6 10:14:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BB43A17B9 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:14:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kjOvAQ8aioI5 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6E353A17A9 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4250E01C1; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:14:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id C06D72034A; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:14:14 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: <3e5340a0-244d-3459-700a-816c19f03fbc@cisco.com> Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:14:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:14:16 -0000 Hi Ketan, Peter, I believe we're waiting for Gunter to approve as the remaining expert, but we can move ahead if Peter confirms that we don't need to wait. Best regards, Amanda On Mon Jul 06 03:46:02 2020, ketant@cisco.com wrote: > Hi Amanda/All, > > I thought that there was an agreement to assign bit 0x00000010 for > draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf-lsr- > dynamic-flooding? > > Thanks, > Ketan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Amanda Baber via RT > Sent: 04 July 2020 07:53 > To: Acee Lindem (acee) > Cc: Peter Psenak (ppsenak) ; mrajesh@juniper.net; > lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ; > gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; > alvaro.retana@futurewei.com; acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > Subject: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft- > ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode > > Hi Peter, all, > > > > For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration is > > > described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may > > > have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation > > > procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication for > > > permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, permanent > > > registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any time. > > > Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation > > > from that registration? > > > > please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. > > The "TEMPORARY" designation has been removed from the draft-ietf-lsr- > dynamic-flooding registration in LLS Type 1 Extended Options and > Flags, currently still assigned 0x00000010: > > https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs > > thanks, > Amanda From nobody Tue Jul 7 05:08:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36813A0BFE; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 05:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a3zAVhz8Ocx6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 05:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8013A0BFF; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 05:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF4BD60EC0; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:08:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2C9C43C4-5727-432A-ABF1-7F8F9B898C57"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:08:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Hopps , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 12:08:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2C9C43C4-5727-432A-ABF1-7F8F9B898C57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are = similar solutions, right? There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for = TTZ so i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ = for OSPF; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen = wrote: >=20 > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, >=20 >=20 >=20 > I would like to request working group adoption of = "Topology-Transparent Zone" >=20 > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ = . >=20 >=20 >=20 > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to = improve scalability: >=20 > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, >=20 > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, >=20 > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and >=20 > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo = node. >=20 > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone = or >=20 > non-backbone area). >=20 >=20 >=20 > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in = the sense >=20 > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or >=20 > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. >=20 >=20 >=20 > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single = pseudo node, >=20 > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >=20 >=20 >=20 > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to = reconstruct >=20 > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its = zone smoothly >=20 > with no or minimum service interruption. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone = edges' full >=20 > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring >=20 > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested. >=20 > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess >=20 > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable = while >=20 > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to = operate >=20 > the transferring. >=20 >=20 >=20 > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy = for IS-IS" >=20 > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection = for short). >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 >=20 > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Flood Reflection" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >=20 > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more >=20 > flood reflectors. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though >=20 > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like >=20 > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. >=20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Huaimo >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_2C9C43C4-5727-432A-ABF1-7F8F9B898C57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8EZa4ACgkQLh2DDte4 MCVM1w/5AehkWzybt+eIavbf869XjjQl7QG9ZRpd3UlU2y/SW8oMZLKfg43fDdHy NoouV3l3aynI9hywJV+WFh5voYZlsp/C2clYNLwmsjzP6GiqaiDecYMKRYz6/wRj GBKTMSk0R96zzHzro3TjiAcesT0EW6p8JyktJEeRDYQYEqlElsqQCzX1YO5bSu23 GxHdQ0V11MdiRX1oO1NbTzDQC0bi/XQVjk9EosmteetRQsh7U940XhnP3up/pDwX eKaLRkRIwgD9PWUogO1BkZsZjTc7W977aQrGlScSO45KtKJYWvUlSGLkR5wRk0vI 9iEGp31zLORNpP/Dj4Z92VV4VtF41Y180CKUPRUrN51P8Rl6h0oqTZ3G0TCDUk41 PGzAu2y2xd3NxIk9faAy0kzEM5kjn30EOVcOdaNKq0a1DPUn4R3U4xB9MLQhyG8f OfN46skxTUkqBfrCapL0YunewSFdPrpg+Hxh85I91THtMHIfGynWw1Q3IY4idBIL wqwUtixhyiqzyz/E8jw1R8YR9guGli0DFvF7zJnAoofixVUkwJBcqUuVGO7CvsRw LXmfle/74bcBE2y7dEqm3VjOnP6QExj/YAssmvSIhLL1homOQzt6nQ9eOgb/OVl9 6eeH23ZP1Ow5HxyUTfAYE1EAG4wF4zEwF16k57F7iYgplhzhoK4= =ZNz5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2C9C43C4-5727-432A-ABF1-7F8F9B898C57-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 08:15:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F513A0DE6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:14:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159413489788.5281.18315664242820525263@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 08:14:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:14:59 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Area Proxy for IS-IS Authors : Tony Li Sarah Chen Vivek Ilangovan Gyan S. Mishra Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2020-07-07 Abstract: Link state routing protocols have hierarchical abstraction already built into them. However, when lower levels are used for transit, they must expose their internal topologies to each other, leading to scale issues. To avoid this, this document discusses extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol that would allow level 1 areas to provide transit, yet only inject an abstraction of the level 1 topology into level 2. Each level 1 area is represented as a single level 2 node, thereby enabling greater scale. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 7 08:20:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E62DF3A0DFC for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:20:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i9RhiIV3S5xG for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A21C3A0DF7 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id d194so16780982pga.13 for ; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 08:20:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references:to:date; bh=QZD0x/BBbnni5mB5lqQ6F21v2I8HXhUjLAal7H/oIzE=; b=Fkfs68pp/UiASTjQzn6poTHCfmtK5gQigFRk+UCBzaw5C+qi4ragLYwBw+s+uPBgOs VsMCGYiwCvVOOREImQPnJh1NM+OQ6MwB73JyOzucBb1xyWAoBB28hnlFwqZwQ2yQYW18 +Qigom/90FCew0jHQcn+EAje0ts46FCnkckq31vNRfSBOACPeIBKEMXHPmWxjkYNvXCW 7APNtervV5GFD+wng71KMsl2zXllZJCElSYMb1sTV9ybfyHlDoH3wBb2LKZV1Bn3XSFj kHCYB8pjLbSHDfJfX3IsKFhkC1gRPnLOHeSCtZjjfKOY0S2R9sSemhiE3BM3gQ7cyWMi Mx5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:mime-version:subject:message-id :references:to:date; bh=QZD0x/BBbnni5mB5lqQ6F21v2I8HXhUjLAal7H/oIzE=; b=BmGYGmd+an2ycq6OkIfflnSob12T7k+Gba7LZQxoPsVIyE2q3UkKhngIukEcLCaR4j kMI+NFoVNGldSu3bSVToZDC2k4cclW4jQL4MXvKI5vNL3ni/jpbSbzQ24z7p2r8N5bhP XhCNsmN18mkvXE6KKOyb+CmJGXeA4aoeXRe4a69Yg/gl52PfGqa62O/EkFQoQEz1crDd cZyoJfZR7EinZ3yUIdDBWud781G3P6iYJWafPX5vM3iS1nnIQU22y+pggbKqNG59tymu ssj2UoBulYREz1M4oe6yHYJfxK/B8mkgQpHvPjO7jFpuZl08Y3Yxe3JJKmCH1eM9y0nS m3nw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532URZinSgV/4STyGbbPA17zskyIt/n8efCthJ7bQ5nB60NgU6pz u/y5iIxw6m6eUF+ShXDdJopdV5+B X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEUUu702YXL40VN7zwV5ApQg97tTrfBPCehuBB2xsCpobgMGAaSvapIVk4XbrYfTfDzUh4OQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:19c9:: with SMTP id 192mr31004874pfz.138.1594135205324; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 08:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.85.186] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p9sm2985589pja.4.2020.07.07.08.20.04 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 08:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_74A6E415-E14A-4327-924E-E1BD3CC16FEE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: References: <159413489833.5281.16624960404974015532@ietfa.amsl.com> To: lsr@ietf.org Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:20:03 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:20:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_74A6E415-E14A-4327-924E-E1BD3CC16FEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi all, We=E2=80=99ve updated our draft to revise the TLV encodings along the = lines of the discussions we=E2=80=99ve been having. 1) The Area Proxy Router Capability is removed. 2) The Inside Node TLV is removed. Instead, the Area Proxy TLV is used = instead. 3) The Area Segment SID is advertised inside of a SID/Label Binding TLV. = While we discussed using=20 a flag within this TLV to denote that this was an Area Segment SID, = after looking at it, it seemed simpler and more consistent to use a sub-TLV. Please review and comment. Thanks, Sarah, Vivek, Gyan, and Tony > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt > Date: July 7, 2020 at 8:14:58 AM PDT > To: "Gyan Mishra" , "Vivek Ilangovan" = , "Sarah Chen" , "Tony Li" = , "Gyan S. Mishra" , "Yunxia = Chen" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tony Li and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy > Revision: 01 > Title: Area Proxy for IS-IS > Document date: 2020-07-07 > Group: lsr > Pages: 19 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt= > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01 >=20 > Abstract: > Link state routing protocols have hierarchical abstraction already > built into them. However, when lower levels are used for transit, > they must expose their internal topologies to each other, leading to > scale issues. >=20 > To avoid this, this document discusses extensions to the IS-IS > routing protocol that would allow level 1 areas to provide transit, > yet only inject an abstraction of the level 1 topology into level 2. > Each level 1 area is represented as a single level 2 node, thereby > enabling greater scale. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_74A6E415-E14A-4327-924E-E1BD3CC16FEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi all,

We=E2=80=99ve updated our draft to = revise the TLV encodings along the lines of the discussions we=E2=80=99ve = been having.

1) = The Area Proxy Router Capability is removed.
2) The = Inside Node TLV is removed. Instead, the Area Proxy TLV is used = instead.
3) The Area Segment SID is advertised = inside of a SID/Label Binding TLV. While we discussed = using 
a flag within this TLV to denote that = this was an Area Segment SID, after looking at it, it seemed = simpler
and more consistent to use a = sub-TLV.

Please = review and comment.

Thanks,
Sarah, Vivek, Gyan, and = Tony


Begin = forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt
Date: = July 7, 2020 at 8:14:58 AM = PDT
To: = "Gyan Mishra" <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>, "Vivek Ilangovan" <ilangovan@arista.com>, "Sarah Chen" <sarahchen@arista.com>, "Tony Li" <tony.li@tony.li>, = "Gyan S. Mishra" <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>, "Yunxia Chen" <sarahchen@arista.com>


A new version = of I-D, draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Tony Li and posted to the
IETF = repository.

Name: = draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy
Revision: 01
Title:= = Area Proxy for IS-IS
Document date: = 2020-07-07
Group: lsr
Pages: 19
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-p= roxy-01.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy= /
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-= proxy
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-pr= oxy-01

Abstract:
=   Link state routing protocols have hierarchical abstraction = already
  built into them.  However, when = lower levels are used for transit,
  they must = expose their internal topologies to each other, leading to
=   scale issues.

  To = avoid this, this document discusses extensions to the IS-IS
=   routing protocol that would allow level 1 areas to provide = transit,
  yet only inject an abstraction of = the level 1 topology into level 2.
  Each level = 1 area is represented as a single level 2 node, thereby
=   enabling greater scale.




Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen wro= te: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 fu= ll mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB3117B443411BDA4E4F4DFC03F2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris,

    Thank you very much for your questions.
    My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

[HC]: There are some di= fferences even though they looks similar. 
At first, the target to= be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that in TTZ. 
Area Proxy abstracts an= existing area to a single pseudo node. 
TTZ abstracts a zone to=  a single pseudo node. A zone is a= piece or block of an area.
An area is different from a zone in general.

Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are differen= t.
When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Using T= TZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo nod= es smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the= existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. 
These = differences will produce different user experiences. 
For sp= litting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more effor= ts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting an are= a such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of= these interfaces will be down with its old area number and then up with it= s new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause service interru= ptions in general. 
For de= fining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is = smooth without any interface down.

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that a z= one can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo nod= e can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS&nbs= p;area to a single pseudo node.
In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo nod= e, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ = for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edge= s full mess. This document proposes a new solution for abstracting a z= one to a single pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to = which are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in the document.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.co= m> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92= full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:52:17 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Huaimo Chen , Christian Hopps CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVGicPoPdjzgOb0WVPu9ygU3J3aj8U/DQ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:52:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: futurewei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;futurewei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2602:306:36ca:6640:31d2:3038:a251:1391] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c6c4cf8e-72ae-4172-68ce-08d822961bab x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR11MB4069: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0457F11EAF x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: W0GxSLmfZZ4OVktXeDGAksi+09ameSG5V8e7haXXSc7ijYR0weD+RE+u314JkpwSwg6M9uwJm0EUUH9ioe8liBFu99pOgM1JHU8tEm/VGyzEFHOs/sbDqUNGH5iG9mPPudJeoscINkEf3QHEvun2jAQFYtoptERsO7wS2PcUD2wKXmXWbgbwc4vaz+JCoYTXruHab+cz5QMYDEyD3M/LG+IFsttWlWV9EG+ML8D7stz4dy4Wevuc7agyYsXcRJclbu7QXR1O3WRtVtO5C/xNWB5RzHJSvON5PNrDwNbGdWJQFRdNo2WlC5h9QUhIBYC7NmPBJVpbmI69mzgvQwAxgN9ePer1XIWjml/x9Qxol42zN6R1P+Zvi1FJGpEtuTBcZPw+L8lTzY2JfkoeBpIEQg== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_BY5PR11MB4337CB679981178F17D9B639C1660BY5PR11MB4337namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c6c4cf8e-72ae-4172-68ce-08d822961bab X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 16:52:17.6702 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: gUP6iDpS1wlf3kuuPy0Tgw0e96iIL8KGNB+h908dn1LQFjPZuVb8QSEBozdeT/f/6MgXBc0FenAcKB90F6u1rw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4069 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 16:52:25 -0000 --_000_BY5PR11MB4337CB679981178F17D9B639C1660BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Huaimo - In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced). So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS. Please consider this in your responses. Thanx. Les From: Lsr On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM To: Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen > wrote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges' full= mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_BY5PR11MB4337CB679981178F17D9B639C1660BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Huaimo –

 

In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base pr= otocol provides a way to do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years a= go when IS-IS TTZ draft was first introduced).

So if the major difference/advantage between area-pr= oxy and ttz is the ability to use zones to handle area merging/splitting th= is does not add much value in IS-IS.

 

Please consider this in your responses.

 

Thanx.

 

    Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chri= s,

&n= bsp;

  =   Thank you very much for your questions.

  =   My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].

&n= bsp;

Best Regards,

Huaimo<= o:p>

From= : Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

&n= bsp;

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they lo= oks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy = is different from that in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single ps= eudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single = pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of an area.<= /p>

An area is different from a zone in ge= neral.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are a= pplied to an area for scalability are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger= , we may have scalability issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few z= ones in the area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing a= rea into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few= pseudo nodes. 

These differences will produce different user experi= ences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, = users may need put more efforts since it causes service interruptions in ge= neral. While splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, th= e area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with = its old area number and then up with its new area number. These interface d= owns and ups will cause service interruptions in general. <= /p>

For defining zones in an area, us= ers may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node = is smooth without any interface down.

 

Moreove= r, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo&nb= sp;node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo= node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW,&nb= sp;In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts = an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.=

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone= in an OSPF area to a single pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a&= nbsp;single pseudo node.

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to TT= Z for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution for = abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single p= seudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referre= d. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in the docum= ent.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges= 217; full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(346002)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(396003)(6666004)(53546011)(76116006)(316002)(8676002)(66946007)(66446008)(66556008)(64756008)(66476007)(71200400001)(478600001)(52536014)(33656002)(7696005)(55016002)(5660300002)(966005)(9686003)(6506007)(86362001)(83380400001)(26005)(8936002)(166002)(186003)(2906002)(110136005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: lX0p85B8roNF8sxvFnBawh2e/oGr6D5Osm8MJE3qF20SOpIsIg+Y+hV/IHLawlpJCH4jdKU9qfHhNgXvRq+cEOK/ogEoFVESTUpd/LJE5+kSz6thD/iPQGIMMeo8B3DiA4DxHEOqTQpv6qGdv3+I/aRUvvVAdeeY+rpD79fY2OS185SyrvIliXTfDHc7vE/Rz+lAP2rOkZNffRs0tUQWu3ZUBW18PKDIIajKK/VNvTb5ihY/vZSqZ9w9DbDDwOBvG+jAcALVjf1PhiiIEBaJOmIb4PqTnTcE11JZKj9SKOG8O+L3EJxetRO+jod/aDC5pFayVbWMYXVgd0JyhopJxUFzjhJt6qgyrmAeO1BoHu6QHfvVnqMqWl9aRH7PHoBFM3TzEnWS9Fb0Ymc7f6w1PPPXFNUjxMhofsG6ZKyswyRr9yyon1Jq5o/cFhEtFGc6AFzEVfQrLMcJbISmzngCVhSM0Qp8BfyhXnqyRyQ5hpc= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MWHPR11MB1374AFD7E3333ACB6B2F2662C9660MWHPR11MB1374namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MWHPR11MB1374.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 942b598e-3cbb-473a-6369-08d8229ccfc2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 17:40:16.6032 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8FYNNbsep+GCxfeFDXVEZ4TZnGaIDwc0bRsocU4AjzIdHIEp6pY1ESrfMXeAbtl+Ywc94Im8HUV3I+CGbnEVCA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW3PR11MB4763 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [spring] clarification of END Point behavior in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 17:40:21 -0000 --_000_MWHPR11MB1374AFD7E3333ACB6B2F2662C9660MWHPR11MB1374namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Parag, Yes, it can be the last SID. When SL=3D0 you ignore the SRH and process the= next header in the header chain. Upper-layer header processing is defined = in 4.1.1. If you would like to remove the SRH with the End behavior you can use PSP, = USP or USD flavors to do so. Regards, Pablo. From: spring On Behalf Of Parag Kaneriya Sent: lunes, 6 de julio de 2020 11:17 To: lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of END Point behavior in draft-ie= tf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello, I am going through recent draft https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-sprin= g-srv6-network-programming-16.pdf Changes are follow , 4.1. End: Endpoint S01. When an SRH is processed { S02. If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) { S03. Proceed to process the next header in the packet, whose type is identi= fied by the Next Header field in the routing header. S04. } S05. If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) { S06. Send an ICMP Time Exceeded message to the Source Address, Code 0 (Hop = limit exceeded in transit), Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet. S07. } With these change, I have below few question 1. Can END SID can be last SID of the SID list ? earlier draft (not su= re which version), it was explicitly mentioned that last SID can't be END s= id ( Most basic flavors ). 2. IF yes then When/Who will remove the SRH header when last sid is END = SID in the sid list. Regards Parag Juniper Business Use Only --_000_MWHPR11MB1374AFD7E3333ACB6B2F2662C9660MWHPR11MB1374namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Parag,

 

Yes, it can be the last SID. When SL=3D0 you ignore the SRH and proce= ss the next header in the header chain. Upper-layer header processing is de= fined in 4.1.1.

If you would like to remove the SRH with the End behavior you can use= PSP, USP or USD flavors to do so.

 

Regards,

Pablo.

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Parag Kaneriya
Sent: lunes, 6 de julio de 2020 11:17
To: lsr@ietf.org; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of END Point behavior in d= raft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello,

 

I am going through recent draft https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-= ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-16.pdf=

 

Changes are follow ,

 

4.1. End: Endpoint

 

S01. When an SRH is processed {

S02. If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0) {

S03. Proceed to process the next header in = the packet, whose type is identified by the Next Header field in the routin= g header.

S04. }

S05. If (IPv6 Hop Limit <=3D 1) {

S06. Send an ICMP Time Exceeded message to = the Source Address, Code 0 (Hop limit exceeded in transit), Interrupt packe= t processing and discard  

     the packet.

S07. }

 

 

With these change, I have below few questio= n

 

  1. Can END SID can be last SID of the SID list ?   ea= rlier draft (not sure which version), it was explicitly mentioned that last SID can’t be END sid ( Most basic flavors ).
  2. IF yes then When/Who will remove the SRH header whe= n last sid is END SID in the sid list.

 

Regards

Parag

 

Juniper Business= Use Only

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Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:12:58 +0000 From: Huaimo Chen To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , Christian Hopps CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVGicPoPdjzgOb0WVPu9ygU3J3aj8U/DQgAAOFDY= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:12:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:199:4300:8e5a:614a:385c:1647:35e3] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f4017917-59d0-4f7a-d045-08d822a1613f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR13MB3022: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fEGNWTrFfuXr/w1bsuf1FxF54w8Ou+PiU1x3hXpzhS9rIACXCzv4N0cAg0qZ2Qzl54P0ZCllG5ocuqYDuCPpCaWw/jA8tP1dFdMXhFwXJXMx8EXI2PyaJ6xOl8NnkR7sIN9Gk7H4S0CUUIuWISzpk7cZMnI19KXe5kDje2/hqcf9qsEpVgFm47FlsohytSbzSmjvqBoOM+h5Gj/nT2hZSozKJy1ADys1vHy5O7ovwVT3V1lgmYA7zx7C4vcWrhpVx/cDnXbfvwHcImeq0Sg4PFp6mzjkZOrB38Eld3t9IrvqEAjCgalT7qtwS7ACvJBedzcRqKNVmq3ucHlwSIX+3LmTtQW1nl/vm0gz+IBPEDObw4IOKvF2B2y5qVWfiQVU1cEbaNn66CIZJsZcZ9QKNA== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_MN2PR13MB31174F6E4C0633CCABF34112F2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f4017917-59d0-4f7a-d045-08d822a1613f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 18:12:58.7957 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: yaQDel3WQiX9CiTV2vFhMhL32S/nqT9JNSXsNXB1qZoYQ5rtygA+zgsT6ByUXpCNOTOqxrHdKSsY1PaZbDKcBg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB3022 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 18:13:05 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB31174F6E4C0633CCABF34112F2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Les, Thank you very much for your comments. There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding t= o IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. At first, the operations/configurations are different. Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS a= rea to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to abs= tract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of= configurations. Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to a si= ngle pseudo node. From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler. Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its singl= e pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single = pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an = existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo =96 In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced). So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS. Please consider this in your responses. Thanx. Les From: Lsr On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM To: Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen > wrote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 fu= ll mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB31174F6E4C0633CCABF34112F2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Les,

    Thank you very much for your comments.

    There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ r= egarding to IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. 

    At first, the operations/configurations are different. <= /div>
    Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split = an IS-IS area to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step= is to abstract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through anot= her set of configurations. 
    Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zo= ne to a sing= le pseudo node.
    Fro= m operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler.

    Sec= ondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseud= o node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly r= olled back to the zone.  
Smooth IS-IS area= splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an existing IS-IS ar= ea to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. 

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Les Ginsberg (ginsber= g) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps &= lt;chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

Huaimo =96

 

In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced).

So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS.

 

Please consider this in your responses.

 

Thanx.

 

    Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Huaimo Ch= en
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chris,

 

    Thank you very&= nbsp;much for your questions.

    My answers/expl= anations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone i= s a piece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in general.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for= scalability are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalabi= lity issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to o= ne or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing area into mul= tiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo node= s. 

These differences will produce different user experiences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number and the= n up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause ser= vice interruptions in general. 

For defining zones in an area, users may need less eff= orts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth withou= t any interface down.

 

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth= transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that = a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo = node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS= -IS area to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a= single pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo no= de.

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) de= scribes a solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This= document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099,= to which are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are= defined in the document.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92= full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
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--_000_MN2PR13MB31174F6E4C0633CCABF34112F2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 11:50:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A763D3A09B9; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GuzzfKQtxmyj; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 11:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07CA3A093D; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 11:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24B0660EE9; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:50:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_86979FEA-A470-4893-B1EF-1E41E362734A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:50:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Hopps , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 18:50:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_86979FEA-A470-4893-B1EF-1E41E362734A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 7, 2020, at 12:00 PM, Huaimo Chen = wrote: >=20 > Hi Chris, >=20 > Thank you very much for your questions. > My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. >=20 > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Christian Hopps > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM > To: Huaimo Chen > Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > Hi Huaimo, >=20 > Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are = similar solutions, right? >=20 > [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. > At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from = that in TTZ. > Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. > TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or = block of an area. > An area is different from a zone in general. [As wg member] If the operator needed a subset of an area abstracted they could split = the area and then use area proxy on the subset though, right? = Restricting things to exactly the area boundary as area proxy does seems = like an elegant KISS approach; it has the advantage of harnessing all = the existing tools and institutional knowledge on how IS-IS areas work. = This in turn simplifies management and debugability I think. While TTZ = adds some extra flexibility (cuts out the area split step) I don't know = that the added complexity makes sense since splitting an area is = basically the same operation as configuring a zone would be. > Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for = scalability are different. > When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability = issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one = or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area = Proxy, we need split the existing area into multiple areas, and then = abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. > These differences will produce different user experiences. > For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put = more efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While = splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area = numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these = interfaces will be down with its old area number and then up with its = new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause service = interruptions in general. > For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any = interface down. >=20 > Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its = single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone. This strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. It = certainly adds complexity to things, I wonder if it's worth it? Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] >=20 > BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS = area to a single pseudo node. > In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single = pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. >=20 >=20 > There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for = TTZ so i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ = for OSPF; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? >=20 > [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a = solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This = document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single = pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are = referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in = the document. >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. > [chair hat] >=20 >=20 > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen = wrote: > > > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of = "Topology-Transparent Zone" > > > > (TTZ for short) = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to = improve scalability: > > > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo = node. > > > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone = or > > > > non-backbone area). > > > > > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in = the sense > > > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node = or > > > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single = pseudo node, > > > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want = to reconstruct > > > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its = zone smoothly > > > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone = edges' full > > > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring > > > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested. > > > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its = edges=E2=80=99 full mess > > > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are = stable while > > > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to = operate > > > > the transferring. > > > > > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area = Proxy for IS-IS" > > > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood = Reflection for short). > > > > > > > > "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 > > > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > > > > > "Flood Reflection" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 > > > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via = one or more > > > > flood reflectors. > > > > > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Huaimo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 --Apple-Mail=_86979FEA-A470-4893-B1EF-1E41E362734A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8Ew+UACgkQLh2DDte4 MCXpbA//e0upULqsNp0kf827D2mabzBKI5hrw8qZinALhY/uYkh2RYrGWTebPZZT ZdQ8jzCOFwE1JsnMJHkzOagKhPU+WaSYMs4HFfTxiXn8mkMQnLOgvahkktJZXSsT ebQEIK8XZEkTPskesf7YQMTIG4uf3IG2yy5eK/6NoNRhYOmGQ7WmeopOrvNJir3k PrnD1K3MzvJFhbpZzIReNqPt3hosk/AuLlOfF7MV+jBOmUT4SBHbktU2iT/vcVcy GU4+C3BZ1Yc5BxjXYx2inttIOONe4Crkb30m25S9/f3AUW3VxHE5KMprbNFW9rvT rzwsXVILp7BYr6ZtsCkp96gSfUo7BpvFcvhxGG8jZLyhR4/uBF/7Yode/kGqddaB lWH5YfxdSXhc5WqdmHY2sI7QglVAcakKmeQ7hCIeDXRPEU9U1BZkwFLY4SgjT3t5 avxcwaj1AFi2AUNJag0GygwUT1Q/rcB6GQ9RCAgHa7VxAvQ7m+ecDL9MIvdO35kj Sg3V5tjmZj5QpGFTbequxNnbM0DH/XUzPYalBap6kZA8Cie06FNmtZT4tTBJZqVC ub02rCPVI6lJzD9rK/LyW4dMWE9MgqSDdMIXlEkIaIjPHrVUxMUA4IFuCnhooQY4 3tGoxbPYcddekrB38sBvNYcTrAG3DNoiAXdQ8GXpN3VYQWv8iPs= =pUZ3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_86979FEA-A470-4893-B1EF-1E41E362734A-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 12:08:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3399A3A09BA; 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Tue, 07 Jul 2020 12:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.85.186] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 66sm10681222pfg.63.2020.07.07.12.08.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 12:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_754B64AF-38A1-4733-A587-32349DB6D63D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:08:47 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Huaimo Chen , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Christian Hopps References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:08:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_754B64AF-38A1-4733-A587-32349DB6D63D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its = single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone. >=20 > This strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. It = certainly adds complexity to things, I wonder if it's worth it? FWIW, we looked at this quite seriously a while ago. Turning abstraction = on and off is simply not a daily occurrence. Doing it properly requires = careful thought and planning.=20 Where are the boundaries? What prefixes will be advertised and with what = metrics? How will the affect traffic flow? The corner cases that happen when you are in this transition are large. = We have to deal with the issue of the metrics that are abstracted away. = We chose to go down the path of intra-area vs. inter-area metrics, exactly as OSPF does. But if you = do this, then you have an issue: the metrics are different when = abstraction is enabled or disabled and=20 different nodes will compute different paths depending on which LSPs = have propagated to them. This seemed like a wonderful opportunity for = forwarding loops. This is especially problematic when abstraction is enabled, as there is now = an entire area=E2=80=99s worth of LSPs that need to age out before you = can be assured of consistency. Yes, you can try to purge them, but purges aren=E2=80=99t the most = reliable thing in the world. =20 Net net, we felt that the complexity exceeded the benefit. Yes, there is = benefit there, but from the pragmatic viewpoint of making it work in = production, the risks and costs seemed very high.=20 We expect that operators would want to make the change in a maintenance = window anyway, and as long as you=E2=80=99re having a maintenance = window, you might as well do things the simpler way. Regards, Tony --Apple-Mail=_754B64AF-38A1-4733-A587-32349DB6D63D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and = its single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred = to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back = to the zone.

This strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. = It certainly adds complexity to things, I wonder if it's worth = it?


FWIW, we looked at this = quite seriously a while ago. Turning abstraction on and off is simply = not a daily occurrence. Doing it properly requires careful thought and = planning. 
Where are the boundaries? What = prefixes will be advertised and with what metrics? How will the affect = traffic flow?

The corner cases that happen when you are in this transition = are large. We have to deal with the issue of the metrics that are = abstracted away.  We chose to go down the path
of intra-area vs. inter-area metrics, exactly as OSPF does. = But if you do this, then you have an issue: the metrics are different = when abstraction is enabled or disabled and 
different nodes will compute different paths depending on = which LSPs have propagated to them. This seemed like a wonderful = opportunity for forwarding loops. This
is = especially problematic when abstraction is enabled, as there is now an = entire area=E2=80=99s worth of LSPs that need to age out before you can = be assured of consistency.
Yes, you can try to = purge them, but purges aren=E2=80=99t the most reliable thing in the = world.  

Net net, we felt that the complexity exceeded the benefit. = Yes, there is benefit there, but from the pragmatic viewpoint of making = it work in production, the risks and costs seemed very = high. 
We expect that operators would want to = make the change in a maintenance window anyway, and as long as you=E2=80=99= re having a maintenance window, you might as well do things = the
simpler way.

Regards,
Tony

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Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:29:23 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Huaimo Chen , Christian Hopps CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVGicPoPdjzgOb0WVPu9ygU3J3aj8U/DQgAAOFDaAABZbQA== Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:29:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: futurewei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;futurewei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2602:306:36ca:6640:31d2:3038:a251:1391] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9e1b62c0-e9f7-4958-513a-08d822ac0da2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3637: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0457F11EAF x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 5+aKv6xaoWUWXJQHrgl1Q1E/ruPhRsoLWRpmWIMYYOQ2WF2yIMrh2EUE2xyQUAVj9r9480hslbgSHvemWDHtSr6a+5DsIPsJvpf4UL2Jr59j2LzakBWmBkLjzZZaqEb2XNUhfOurqAhqg5SyPA1TJQhcrD2lVv0yDPfqK8ltLDrV0ZbXPOlYY1iIxgb1IqxqVbSJEYmXW6SB/Dlzdl3QSqfwuOOrdzcF2jBLOT6z1WZW2npWhLAnCRYvPJhBgDa5PT8SIBPgO9edT5HpCls/kDIb9lgsViYHYILTe/boCHW90owLcZKrQyRsRRfZswCy8yaL93XlFDixx93HicyGgthfauRxKLCZ0O3rc6LQMAnggLQbpT0evnFhUjimN6f0e4yZb0UhWl4hmFU1slvY6g== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_BY5PR11MB4337001F090BC5C81716039DC1660BY5PR11MB4337namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9e1b62c0-e9f7-4958-513a-08d822ac0da2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 19:29:22.9297 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Lwy7nUp7OxuOrYdmAeRrWmL1znCESotIZkvYQOXGskN5m2qSpJDDoX50a6DsL0zEZ5MF5Jgli5TENpdVQNvCDA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3637 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:29:39 -0000 --_000_BY5PR11MB4337001F090BC5C81716039DC1660BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Huaimo - I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the= solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) - or to a set of a= reas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that a= customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not= follow area boundaries. It isn't clear to me that this is a compelling req= uirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate them= speaking up and educating us on the requirements. Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from Area-Proxy you = should be focusing on things other than the flexibility of zones over areas= . Les From: Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Les, Thank you very much for your comments. There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding t= o IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. At first, the operations/configurations are different. Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS a= rea to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to abs= tract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of= configurations. Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to a si= ngle pseudo node. From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler. Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its singl= e pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single = pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an = existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM To: Huaimo Chen >; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org >; = lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo - In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced). So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS. Please consider this in your responses. Thanx. Les From: Lsr > On Behalf Of = Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM To: Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen > wrote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges' full= mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_BY5PR11MB4337001F090BC5C81716039DC1660BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Huaimo –

 

I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an o= perator could apply the solution to a subset of an area (which you call a z= one) – or to a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presum= es that it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not follow area bo= undaries. It isn’t clear to me that this is a compelling requirement.= If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking= up and educating us on the requirements.

 

Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate T= TZ from Area-Proxy you should be focusing on things other than the flexibil= ity of zones over areas.

 

   Les

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.c= om>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Ho= pps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Les,=

&n= bsp;

  =   Thank you very much for your comments.

&n= bsp;

  =   There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regardin= g to IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. <= /p>

&n= bsp;

  =   At first, the operations/configurations are different. 

  =   Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-I= S area to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to = abstract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of configurations. 

  =   Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to&n= bsp;a single pseudo node.

    From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler.<= /span>

&n= bsp;

    Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between = a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly tran= sferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.  

Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstr= acting an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. <= /span>

&n= bsp;

Best Re= gards,

Huaimo<= o:p>

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <hua= imo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Huaimo –

 

In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base p= rotocol provides a way to do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years = ago when IS-IS TTZ draft was first introduced).

So if the major difference/advantage between area-p= roxy and ttz is the ability to use zones to handle area merging/splitting t= his does not add much value in IS-IS.

 

Please consider this in your responses.<= /p>

 

Thanx.

 

    Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@= chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chr= is,

 =

 =   Thank you very much for your questions.

 =   My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 =

Best Regards,

Huaimo=

Fro= m: Christian Hopps<= br> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 =

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they l= ooks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy= is different from that in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single p= seudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single= pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of an area.=

An area is different from a zone in g= eneral.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are = applied to an area for scalability are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigge= r, we may have scalability issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few = zones in the area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing a= rea into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few= pseudo nodes. 

These differences will produce different user exper= iences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas,= users may need put more efforts since it causes service interruptions in g= eneral. While splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, t= he area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with = its old area number and then up with its new area number. These interface d= owns and ups will cause service interruptions in general. <= /p>

For defining zones in an area, u= sers may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node= is smooth without any interface down.

 

Moreov= er, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo&n= bsp;node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseud= o node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW,&n= bsp;In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts= an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zon= e in an OSPF area to a single pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a=  single pseudo node.

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to T= TZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution for= abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single p= seudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referre= d. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in the docum= ent.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges= 217; full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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e3e51015-84a5-4f47-1847-08d822ade16e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 19:42:27.8121 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: d2ybDZpA6CbBJpQAMKb6ZglXVpMyO7JYxihxfDDSaIo9TjDQ+aDyVmuXsVSYn8IZxupSr3D+xyMRHMoODqUnwQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB3518 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:42:36 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB3117178F8F7BF26FBC82EB6DF2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Les, > I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply t= he solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =96 or to a set = of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected th= at a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do= not follow area boundaries. It isn=92t clear to me that this is a compelli= ng requirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciat= e them speaking up and educating us on the requirements. How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set of areas (which you also cal= l a zone)? A zone is a piece or block of an area. In an area, we can define one or mo= re zones. All these zones are within this area. For a set of areas, we can = define one or more zones in each of these areas. But we can not define a zo= ne crossing multiple areas. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo =96 I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the= solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =96 or to a set of= areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that= a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do n= ot follow area boundaries. It isn=92t clear to me that this is a compelling= requirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate = them speaking up and educating us on the requirements. Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from Area-Proxy you = should be focusing on things other than the flexibility of zones over areas= . Les From: Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Les, Thank you very much for your comments. There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding t= o IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. At first, the operations/configurations are different. Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS a= rea to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to abs= tract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of= configurations. Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to a si= ngle pseudo node. From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler. Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its singl= e pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single = pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an = existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM To: Huaimo Chen >; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org >; = lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo =96 In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced). So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS. Please consider this in your responses. Thanx. Les From: Lsr > On Behalf Of = Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM To: Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen > wrote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 fu= ll mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB3117178F8F7BF26FBC82EB6DF2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Les,

> I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator= could apply the solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =96 or to a set of areas (which you als= o call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that a customer would wan= t to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not follow area bounda= ries. It isn=92t clear to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I w= ould appreciate them speaking up and educating us on the requirements.

How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set of areas&= nbsp;(which you also call a zone)? 
A zone is a piece or block of an area.  In an area, we c= an define one or more zones. All these zones are within this area. For a se= t of areas, we can define one or more zones in each of these areas. But we can not define a zone crossing multiple are= as.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Les Ginsberg (ginsber= g) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps &= lt;chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

Huaimo =96

 

I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the= solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =96 or to a set of= areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that= a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn= =92t clear to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operat= ors who feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us= on the requirements.

 

Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from Area-Proxy you = should be focusing on things other than the flexibility of zones over areas= .

 

   Les

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Ho= pps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Les,

 

    Thank you very = much for your comments.

 

    There are still= some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding to IS-IS with smooth= area splitting and merging. 

 

    At first, the o= perations/configurations are different. 

    Using Area Prox= y, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS area to multiple are= as through some configurations. The other step is to abstract an existing I= S-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of configurations. 

    Using TTZ, only= one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to a single pseudo node.

  &nbs= p; From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler.

 

  &nbs= p; Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single= pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single p= seudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.  

Smooth IS-I= S area splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an existing IS= -IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. 

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From:= Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg= @cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <hua= imo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Huaimo =96

 

In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced).

So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS.

 

Please consider this in your responses.

 

Thanx.

 

    Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ie= tf.org> On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@= chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chris,

 

    Thank you very&= nbsp;much for your questions.

    My answers/expl= anations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone i= s a piece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in general.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for= scalability are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalabi= lity issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to o= ne or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing area into mul= tiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo node= s. 

These differences will produce different user experiences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number and the= n up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause ser= vice interruptions in general. 

For defining zones in an area, users may need less eff= orts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth withou= t any interface down.

 

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth= transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that = a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo = node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS= -IS area to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a= single pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo no= de.

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) de= scribes a solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This= document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099,= to which are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are= defined in the document.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92= full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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15.20.3153.029; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:14:04 +0000 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: "iana-prot-param@iana.org" CC: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" Thread-Topic: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode Thread-Index: AQHWUaoJ/6gY+DcSx0ikTHWXd5rgZqj57GWAgADiDrOAAYF8AA== Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:14:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3e5340a0-244d-3459-700a-816c19f03fbc@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 authentication-results: iana.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iana.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [136.56.133.70] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 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multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_88A859DB34D74695A4330C39D20749EBciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB2887.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 31073cba-5049-40ee-c815-08d822b4f4d6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jul 2020 20:33:06.7670 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OuHLEX8BmG0Sp9cmqIGkb6lslrLW8LX7TQzWGeT92iTghaHzg5u14+Gry0+pacZx X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4134 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.15, xch-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State 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; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVqSISs690F9 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D29933A0AA8 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:54:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A05E0116; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:54:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id E2DCB2043B; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:54:37 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:54:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:54:40 -0000 Peter, should we go ahead? thanks, Amanda On Tue Jul 07 20:14:48 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: > Gunter is on vacation... > Thanks, > Acee > > On 7/6/20, 1:14 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" > wrote: > > Hi Ketan, Peter, > > I believe we're waiting for Gunter to approve as the remaining expert, > but we can move ahead if Peter confirms that we don't need to wait. > > Best regards, > Amanda > > On Mon Jul 06 03:46:02 2020, ketant@cisco.com wrote: > > Hi Amanda/All, > > > > I thought that there was an agreement to assign bit 0x00000010 for > > draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf- > > lsr- > > dynamic-flooding? > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amanda Baber via RT > > Sent: 04 July 2020 07:53 > > To: Acee Lindem (acee) > > Cc: Peter Psenak (ppsenak) ; mrajesh@juniper.net; > > lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ; > > gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; > > alvaro.retana@futurewei.com; acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > > Subject: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft- > > ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode > > > > Hi Peter, all, > > > > > > For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration > > > > is > > > > described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may > > > > have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation > > > > procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication > > > > for > > > > permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, > > > > permanent > > > > registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any > > > > time. > > > > Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation > > > > from that registration? > > > > > > please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. > > > > The "TEMPORARY" designation has been removed from the draft-ietf-lsr- > > dynamic-flooding registration in LLS Type 1 Extended Options and > > Flags, currently still assigned 0x00000010: > > > > https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs > > > > thanks, > > Amanda > > From nobody Tue Jul 7 17:42:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE9A3A0CC1; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:42:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee and Chris, Thank you very much for your comments. > I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach of h= aving the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/area= last Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zone/= area terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Are= a Proxy draft includes a much more comprehensive specification of the proto= col mechanisms required for area/zone abstraction. I have no doubt that the= Area Proxy details could also be amended from area proxy to TTZ, but that = is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92t= a difference. Thanks, Acee There are really some differences between TTZ and Area Proxy, which are= listed below for OSPF and IS-IS: Differences between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy (note: assume that OSP= F Area Proxy is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even though OSPF Area Proxy is = not defined in the Area Proxy draft) include: 1). It seems that OSPF Area Proxy can not be amended to OSPF TTZ. OSPF= TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. This abstraction is supporte= d by the extensions to OSPF, and some of these extensions are not defined i= n OSPF Area Proxy. For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the zo= ne are not defined in OSPF Area Proxy. 2). OSPF Area Proxy abstracts an existing OSPF area to a single pseudo= node. OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piec= e or block of an OSPF area. An OSPF area is different from a zone in genera= l. 3). The ways in which they are applied to an OSPF area for scalability = are different. When an OSPF area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have sca= lability issues. Using OSPF TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the = OSPF area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. U= sing OSPF Area Proxy, we need split the existing OSPF area into multiple OS= PF areas, and then abstract one or a few OSPF areas to one or few pseudo no= des. Some people may like the one step operation in OSPF TTZ. Others may li= ke the two step operations in OSPF Area Proxy. 4). The user experiences are different. For splitting an existing OSPF = area into multiple OSPF areas, users may need put more efforts since it cau= ses service interruptions in general. While splitting an OSPF area into mul= tiple OSPF areas, the area numbers configured on some interfaces will be ch= anged and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number an= d then up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will caus= e service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an OSPF area, use= rs may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node i= s smooth without any interface down. 5). OSPF TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single= pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single p= seudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Differences between IS-IS TTZ and IS-IS Area Proxy are similar to the above 1). 2). 3). and 5) between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Acee Lindem (acee) Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:41 PM To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Speaking as WG member: I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach of hav= ing the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/area l= ast Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zone/ar= ea terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Area = Proxy draft includes a much more comprehensive specification of the protoco= l mechanisms required for area/zone abstraction. I have no doubt that the A= rea Proxy details could also be amended from area proxy to TTZ, but that is= exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92t a= difference. Thanks, Acee From: Lsr on behalf of Huaimo Chen Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM To: Christian Hopps Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen wro= te: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 fu= ll mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB3117D630599BC2860B7C816BF2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee and Chris,

    Thank you very much for your comments.

> I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach o= f having the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/a= rea last Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zo= ne/area terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Area Proxy draft includes a much more comp= rehensive specification of the protocol mechanisms required for area/zone a= bstraction. I have no doubt that the Area Proxy details could also be amend= ed from area proxy to TTZ, but that is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92= t a difference.

 

Thanks,

Acee

    
    There are really some differences between TTZ and Area Proxy,= which are listed below for OSPF and IS-IS:
    Dif= ferences between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy (note: assume that OSPF Area = Proxy is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even though OSPF Area Proxy is not defined in the Area Proxy draft) include:
    1).=   It seems that OSPF Area Proxy can not be amended to OSPF TTZ. OSPF T= TZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. This abstraction is supported by the extensions to OSPF, and some of these exte= nsions are not defined in OSPF Area Proxy. For example, the extensions for = the edge nodes of the zone are not defined in OSPF Area Proxy.
    2).=   OSPF Area Proxy abstracts an existing OSPF area to a single pseudo node.&n= bsp; OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of an OSPF area. An OSPF area is different from a zone i= n general. 
    3). The ways in which they are applied to an O= SPF area for scalability are different. When an OSPF area becomes bigger an= d bigger, we may have scalability issues. Using OSPF TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the OSPF area to one= or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using OSPF Area P= roxy, we need split the existing OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, and th= en abstract one or a few OSPF areas to one or few pseudo nodes. Some people may like the one step operation in= OSPF TTZ. Others may like the two step operations in OSPF Area Proxy. = ;
    4). The user experiences are different. For splitting an exist= ing OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, users may need put more efforts sin= ce it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting an OSPF area= into multiple OSPF areas, the area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces= will be down with its old area number and then up with its new area number= . These interface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general= . For defining zones in an OSPF area, users may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pse= udo node is smooth without any interface down.<= /span>
    5). OSPF TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its si= ngle pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a sing= le pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone= .

    Differences between IS-IS TTZ and IS-IS Area Proxy are simila= r to
    the above 1). 2). 3). and 5) between OSPF TTZ and OSPF A= rea Proxy.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Acee Lindem (acee) &l= t;acee@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:41 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps &= lt;chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

Speaking as WG member:

 

I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach of hav= ing the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/area l= ast Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zone/ar= ea terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Area Proxy draft includes a much more comp= rehensive specification of the protocol mechanisms required for area/zone a= bstraction. I have no doubt that the Area Proxy details could also be amend= ed from area proxy to TTZ, but that is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92= t a difference.

 

Thanks,
Acee

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@= ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chris,

 

    Thank you very&= nbsp;much for your questions.

    My answers/expl= anations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a pi= ece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in general.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalabilit= y are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues= . Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few p= seudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing area into multiple areas, and= then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. <= /p>

These differences will produce different user experiences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number and the= n up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause ser= vice interruptions in general. 

For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any inter= face down.

 

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth= transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that = a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo = node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW, In the= Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS ar= ea to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pse= udo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.<= /p>

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a s= olution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document p= roposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which = are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined i= n the document.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.co= m> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92= full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Huaimo - Sorry for ascribing area merging properties to zones. As the base protocol = mechanism in IS-IS can be used both to split and merge areas I was thinking= zones could be used the same way, but I see on closer reading that you hav= e restricted a zone to be a subset of an area (which could also be the area= itself). I think this does not detract from the main point I am trying to make - whi= ch is that unless there is reason to believe that operators would prefer to= use zones rather than split an area (when necessary), this does not serve = as a significant differentiator between TTZ and area-proxy. I think you need a more compelling differentiator to justify proceeding wit= h both drafts. In this regard I am agreeing with the points made by other folks (notably C= hris and Tony), that the introduction of zones may well be adding unneeded = complexity. Just my opinion of course... Les From: Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 12:42 PM To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Les, > I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply t= he solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) - or to a set of= areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that= a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do n= ot follow area boundaries. It isn't clear to me that this is a compelling r= equirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate th= em speaking up and educating us on the requirements. How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set of areas (which you also cal= l a zone)? A zone is a piece or block of an area. In an area, we can define one or mo= re zones. All these zones are within this area. For a set of areas, we can = define one or more zones in each of these areas. But we can not define a zo= ne crossing multiple areas. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM To: Huaimo Chen >; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org >; = lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo - I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the= solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) - or to a set of a= reas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that a= customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not= follow area boundaries. It isn't clear to me that this is a compelling req= uirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate them= speaking up and educating us on the requirements. Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from Area-Proxy you = should be focusing on things other than the flexibility of zones over areas= . Les From: Huaimo Chen > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) >= ; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Les, Thank you very much for your comments. There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding t= o IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. At first, the operations/configurations are different. Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS a= rea to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to abs= tract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of= configurations. Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to a si= ngle pseudo node. From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler. Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its singl= e pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single = pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an = existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM To: Huaimo Chen >; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org >; = lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo - In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft= was first introduced). So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abil= ity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS. Please consider this in your responses. Thanx. Les From: Lsr > On Behalf Of = Huaimo Chen Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM To: Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen > wrote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges' full= mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_BY5PR11MB43379EF8B5DDBC05BFC4EF9CC1670BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Huaimo –

 

Sorry for ascribing area merging properties to zones= . As the base protocol mechanism in IS-IS can be used both to split and mer= ge areas I was thinking zones could be used the same way, but I see on clos= er reading that you have restricted a zone to be a subset of an area (which could also be the area itself).

 

I think this does not detract from the main point I = am trying to make – which is that unless there is reason to believe t= hat operators would prefer to use zones rather than split an area (when nec= essary), this does not serve as a significant differentiator between TTZ and area-proxy.

I think you need a more compelling differentiator to= justify proceeding with both drafts.

 

In this regard I am agreeing with the points made by= other folks (notably Chris and Tony), that the introduction of zones may w= ell be adding unneeded complexity.

 

Just my opinion of course…

 

   Les

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.c= om>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 12:42 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Ho= pps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Les,=

&n= bsp;

> = I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the= solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) – or to a se= t of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mo= de where the interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn’t= clear to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators = who feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us on the requirements.

&n= bsp;

How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set = of areas (which you also call a zone)? 

A zone is a piece or block of an area.  In an a= rea, we can define one or more zones. All these zones are within this area.= For a set of areas, we can define one or more zones in each of these areas= . But we can not define a zone crossing multiple areas.

&n= bsp;

Best Re= gards,

Huaimo<= o:p>

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <hua= imo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Huaimo –

 

I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an = operator could apply the solution to a subset of an area (which you call a = zone) – or to a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presu= mes that it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not follow a= rea boundaries. It isn’t clear to me that this is a compelling requir= ement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate them sp= eaking up and educating us on the requirements.

 

Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate = TTZ from Area-Proxy you should be focusing on things other than the flexibi= lity of zones over areas.

 

   Les

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Les= ,

 =

 =   Thank you very much for your comments.

 =

 =   There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regardi= ng to IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. =

 =

 =   At first, the operations/configurations are different. =

 =   Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-= IS area to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to= abstract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of configurations. 

 =   Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to&= nbsp;a single pseudo node.

    From operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler.=

 =

    Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between= a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly tra= nsferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.  

Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abst= racting an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. =

 =

Best R= egards,

Huaimo=

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <hua= imo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Huaimo –

 

In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base = protocol provides a way to do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years= ago when IS-IS TTZ draft was first introduced).

So if the major difference/advantage between area-= proxy and ttz is the ability to use zones to handle area merging/splitting = this does not add much value in IS-IS.

 

Please consider this in your responses.=

 

Thanx.

 

    Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@= chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Ch= ris,

 = ;

 = ;   Thank you very much for your questions.

 = ;   My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].<= o:p>

 = ;

Best Regards,

Huaim= o

Fr= om: Christian Hopps=
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 = ;

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they = looks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Prox= y is different from that in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single = pseudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a singl= e pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in = general.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are= applied to an area for scalability are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigg= er, we may have scalability issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few= zones in the area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the e= xisting area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to o= ne or few pseudo nodes. 

These differences will produce different user expe= riences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas= , users may need put more efforts since it causes service interruptions in = general. While splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, = the area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with = its old area number and then up with its new area number. These interface d= owns and ups will cause service interruptions in general. <= /p>

For defining zones in an area, = users may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo nod= e is smooth without any interface down.

 

Moreo= ver, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo&= nbsp;node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW,&= nbsp;In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstract= s an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zo= ne in an OSPF area to a single pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to = a single pseudo node.

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to = TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single p= seudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referre= d. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in the docum= ent.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges= 217; full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

--_000_BY5PR11MB43379EF8B5DDBC05BFC4EF9CC1670BY5PR11MB4337namp_-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 18:11:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123143A0CD9; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:11:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkTtVtlPcrT2; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B52463A0CD8; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id j20so3527913pfe.5; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 18:11:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=TVYYuPSlTrjaR8Z4/9zJbHJPIpnXEhoksjf01qIm+1o=; b=GYp8ack+38Pyuw8otRKLzIE2gHLi2d/iwKaYm4RWv1LxNzN+ExtqZko6wO+aQc2sbc shH7nsmgzScKeP1dxM85lqIMBIIcUwoHsxEVhD22wJiXIMfXmAgp9szUzVHDRTER5YSU kBrjzoUklfh6isvXARMANqFHjZZMEpdBSyo7Fei8R42Odiig5XXyh+/HMuln7tNlieHN nY8zM4OELxxBzhb02HzTCXrJHy/6g6Qqo9fweWtMatDYRJ9altPx978zXwH1S068xsxx RVk3PCrLlz1CfuyZ/8IluLhaWXY2Q2EbKEoSF05SXBGQHCdhoVFLlsP/tIc2m8iphRgs zy0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=TVYYuPSlTrjaR8Z4/9zJbHJPIpnXEhoksjf01qIm+1o=; b=hRuFoPkQzhyovrgPqg5BkFeYVOAXqBRhcjeecwYjyMqfZC9EqhZbvI76el37WJl2+P ttLv3e2iEubyrU+45U4Mj4YsyDH4a4PEzYNsQ8PqCC0ICDwYEZeoJxIo60YovhqKD7X1 zW1kuAvlPFxQMr1tUlVXeNkgkv3EHeZls0yvwBumFL0pwTeJW4XQXFl1XHY3Q3QlzyQg sKueiIyrhoFBd0V/go1lmfMd/MBmS4UvY8WKKf0YR5/UvEIM4Hu3qgNE+Ck/cFfcObhB Qz/1ZeqGtpsstRH8Svg3F5JG5w1s0zUkLc6fxykalfWHXAvjwnkIpbYldP/3uUUe1znk u0jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531jJiQS1FNsiTWJJxWa/w6qFNXf9j7g1X1jTlkOkam2/nKBqp6G mmNLihzHjTUgZvMBHPwTWbA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCubk4mGPEuehqAPya6kKwVi9HV4MHSMmjpEfBnp51FQ55F3iocVY+rHCmsaEYeNntZZr8Uw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:1641:: with SMTP id 1mr47258417pgw.370.1594170697020; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 18:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.80.3] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m17sm22778487pfo.182.2020.07.07.18.11.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 18:11:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Li Message-Id: <463D8C38-723D-47A4-A0A0-E4739011CF35@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3ECD1AF5-537A-4912-B350-A95131D3791B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:11:34 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Christian Hopps , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: <1AAE35CE-5EEC-4030-A3E7-24DBF422017D@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 01:11:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3ECD1AF5-537A-4912-B350-A95131D3791B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Huaimo, > Differences between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy (note: assume = that OSPF Area Proxy is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even though OSPF = Area Proxy is not defined in the Area Proxy draft) include: That=E2=80=99s an unfortunate assumption. We have not defined OSPF Area = Proxy because it=E2=80=99s frankly well outside of our expertise. The hierarchical structures of OSPF and IS-IS are intrinsically = different. While legacy IS-IS allows L2 traffic to transit an L1L2 = area, my understanding is that when OSPF traffic leaves Area 0, it = won=E2=80=99t be coming=20 back. While I don=E2=80=99t particularly like this aspect of the OSPF = architecture, it=E2=80=99s NOT what we were out to fix. =20 So, please don=E2=80=99t assume anything about OSPF Area Proxy. =20 Tony --Apple-Mail=_3ECD1AF5-537A-4912-B350-A95131D3791B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Huaimo,

    Differences = between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy (note: assume that OSPF Area Proxy = is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even though OSPF Area Proxy is not = defined in the Area Proxy draft) include:


That=E2=80=99s an unfortunate assumption.  We = have not defined OSPF Area Proxy because it=E2=80=99s frankly well = outside of our expertise.

The = hierarchical structures of OSPF and IS-IS are intrinsically different. =  While legacy IS-IS allows L2 traffic to transit an L1L2 area, my = understanding is that when OSPF traffic leaves Area 0, it won=E2=80=99t = be coming 
back.  While I don=E2=80=99t particularly = like this aspect of the OSPF architecture, it=E2=80=99s NOT what we were = out to fix.  

So, please = don=E2=80=99t assume anything about OSPF Area Proxy. =  

Tony

= --Apple-Mail=_3ECD1AF5-537A-4912-B350-A95131D3791B-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 18:21:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788583A0CE6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:21:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjQz6u-bzoCw; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4BE3A0CE5; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 602AC60F14; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:21:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: <18B0441B-6B1B-48B7-B747-D8B7B2C9A1E8@chopps.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1B8B871D-A895-40CC-BBF2-37F6C8FF6E26"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 21:21:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Hopps , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: <1AAE35CE-5EEC-4030-A3E7-24DBF422017D@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 01:21:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1B8B871D-A895-40CC-BBF2-37F6C8FF6E26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Huaimo Chen = wrote: >=20 > Hi Acee and Chris, >=20 > Thank you very much for your comments. >=20 > > I agree with Chris =E2=80=93 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the = approach of having the area/zone leader originate a single LSP = abstracting the zone/area last Oct, the main differentiation between the = two approaches is the zone/area terminology. The other substantive = difference is the fact that the Area Proxy draft includes a much more = comprehensive specification of the protocol mechanisms required for = area/zone abstraction. I have no doubt that the Area Proxy details could = also be amended from area proxy to TTZ, but that is exactly Chris=E2=80=99= s point with which I agree =E2=80=93 there essentially isn=E2=80=99t a = difference. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 > There are really some differences between TTZ and Area Proxy, = which are listed below for OSPF and IS-IS: > Differences between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy (note: assume = that OSPF Area Proxy is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even though OSPF = Area Proxy is not defined in the Area Proxy draft) include: > 1). It seems that OSPF Area Proxy can not be amended to OSPF TTZ. = OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. This abstraction is = supported by the extensions to OSPF, and some of these extensions are = not defined in OSPF Area Proxy. For example, the extensions for the edge = nodes of the zone are not defined in OSPF Area Proxy. > 2). OSPF Area Proxy abstracts an existing OSPF area to a single = pseudo node. OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone = is a piece or block of an OSPF area. An OSPF area is different from a = zone in general. > 3). The ways in which they are applied to an OSPF area for = scalability are different. When an OSPF area becomes bigger and bigger, = we may have scalability issues. Using OSPF TTZ, we can abstract one or a = few zones in the OSPF area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without = any interface down. Using OSPF Area Proxy, we need split the existing = OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, and then abstract one or a few OSPF = areas to one or few pseudo nodes. Some people may like the one step = operation in OSPF TTZ. Others may like the two step operations in OSPF = Area Proxy. > 4). The user experiences are different. For splitting an existing = OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, users may need put more efforts = since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting an = OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, the area numbers configured on some = interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down = with its old area number and then up with its new area number.. These = interface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general.. = For defining zones in an OSPF area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any = interface down. > 5). OSPF TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its = single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone.. I think the fact that the above is mixing terms (e.g., OSPF Area Proxy, = which doesn't exist, and OSPF doesn't have pseudo-nodes) is really = highlighting the fact that, as Acee pointed out, perhaps its not a good = idea to be trying to update/modify OSPF TTZ (RFC8099), and at the same = time introduce something new to IS-IS. It's very confusing right now to = have these things all mixed together like this. Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] >=20 > Differences between IS-IS TTZ and IS-IS Area Proxy are similar to > the above 1). 2). 3). and 5) between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy. >=20 > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Acee Lindem (acee) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:41 PM > To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps = > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > Speaking as WG member: >=20 > I agree with Chris =E2=80=93 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the = approach of having the area/zone leader originate a single LSP = abstracting the zone/area last Oct, the main differentiation between the = two approaches is the zone/area terminology. The other substantive = difference is the fact that the Area Proxy draft includes a much more = comprehensive specification of the protocol mechanisms required for = area/zone abstraction. I have no doubt that the Area Proxy details could = also be amended from area proxy to TTZ, but that is exactly Chris=E2=80=99= s point with which I agree =E2=80=93 there essentially isn=E2=80=99t a = difference. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee > From: Lsr on behalf of Huaimo Chen = > Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM > To: Christian Hopps > Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" = > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > Hi Chris, >=20 > Thank you very much for your questions. > My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. >=20 > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Christian Hopps > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM > To: Huaimo Chen > Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > Hi Huaimo, >=20 > Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are = similar solutions, right? >=20 > [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. > At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from = that in TTZ. > Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. > TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or = block of an area. > An area is different from a zone in general. >=20 > Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for = scalability are different. > When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability = issues.. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to = one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area = Proxy, we need split the existing area into multiple areas, and then = abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. > These differences will produce different user experiences. > For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put = more efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While = splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area = numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these = interfaces will be down with its old area number and then up with its = new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause service = interruptions in general. > For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any = interface down. >=20 > Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its = single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone. >=20 > BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS = area to a single pseudo node. > In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single = pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. >=20 >=20 > There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for = TTZ so i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ = for OSPF; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? >=20 > [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a = solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This = document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single = pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are = referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in = the document. >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. > [chair hat] >=20 >=20 > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen = wrote: > > > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of = "Topology-Transparent Zone" > > > > (TTZ for short) = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to = improve scalability: > > > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo = node. > > > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone = or > > > > non-backbone area). > > > > > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in = the sense > > > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node = or > > > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single = pseudo node, > > > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want = to reconstruct > > > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its = zone smoothly > > > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone = edges' full > > > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring > > > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested. > > > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its = edges=E2=80=99 full mess > > > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are = stable while > > > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to = operate > > > > the transferring. > > > > > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area = Proxy for IS-IS" > > > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood = Reflection for short). > > > > > > > > "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 > > > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > > > > > "Flood Reflection" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 > > > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via = one or more > > > > flood reflectors. > > > > > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Huaimo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_1B8B871D-A895-40CC-BBF2-37F6C8FF6E26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8FH5UACgkQLh2DDte4 MCUCuA//YRES3PLCZkKkhc8aV1AvnOEm0wKlmGKoEd4A3GEZjoy3guxQuZNFThb0 R4nCeF2lxvS/7FUGPZpDS92IMJgPjKBcs9cUs/fWlpIXBWt8m/ojXPVzr6Tfyu0/ qi1pHqAERITjiMluyrnpWUfcn6ug/1txL0P0JiUHsJeLF3DRBCeHyhTkxCw0x7l+ Xa4hVs7E9Y6Jo0MRZOEJ+aM6IN1dIN8q/iX0pirgQ4akpiZntQCq+cVs8zAGBP/V EP6/g0mWPNhW0YoMqIDZEoJNbHpEABavowrDpaRC5dpgow4cnlD8s5hocHM6vv0w HPzJDRNVxN2TDHiLxIK8JzfDwg8kYp8EqYyV9/QV31zkCtF3GxoYWVj84o6WmjDO YlFYLyN/yOr3dFwYjco9GevTqo30FWt2pbgTgEJmGUUrIXdhyZw5HALjfz3QogsD 3oAFCHAgSM7EggqUA88w8krFe4LldPHL+T9PpJiSOqf7pteZIG5dUL1i5nRvoZ5F WJR/EdmaUBruUAGdTVykIZ1PywzCcfw29GQMuoM6LefP6WWsuGahzoeImX8ybZLH VZhlNpLtLKawrkD3ht+JMXN/Hsqz3lHm99E6O3AZ5AJM1XbjIBwlx7zkWrhYiNu0 KfGmMX6FP4HQmG1b7iYM8ZmdDGM10wrnFQ8ISy80+UK79B17ZFc= =6sjR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1B8B871D-A895-40CC-BBF2-37F6C8FF6E26-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 18:30:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291E13A0CF9; 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Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:30:26 +0000 From: Huaimo Chen To: "tony.li@tony.li" , Christian Hopps CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVGicPoPdjzgOb0WVPu9ygU3J3aj8dhOAgAAFMICAAALeBQ== Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 01:30:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: tony.li; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tony.li; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:199:4300:8e5a:614a:385c:1647:35e3] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cf0c49a7-c920-40dd-a3d6-08d822de7dc9 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR13MB3616: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Hlg93lvHIPK7jNxtZpAwtNbb4rS6ILI2hYT1DzUTuVY+e5zxmvUrR2QU+eee6Vm6ezQcEVDA03Y814bYmAnB11D/6d4Ikh7Ps6CXGcLdkp06nSt40cqsgKy6PlnRzhwxncmvULQx+UactfbzqJYICLzl0Otl05qiogZSM5sC8XNYxEMoHJvaHSnv04RX46BwMTOc2g5Fk1G/WMcAvTOov8PF0eS5hgo7knJHdIap88KWax+EUscgJr8d6vDdtRo3q6YgZstfz1zZ5oXu99bnX1KT4WDJ87CCdzz77nopzO018P4wZILf6GbK3cKBAQyH8RMlc3ERBPt4Ncps9WLgaA== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_MN2PR13MB311742F6AAF81EF6EC55AEDFF2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cf0c49a7-c920-40dd-a3d6-08d822de7dc9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Jul 2020 01:30:25.9716 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TgyzwW1zS8gixPWI3ogSb0j4a6xJlSjw2IL/PyHMmG0FMjxKX0G+LeE1OGLLjAQkw1OfGjHc+Dvz7d25KHIvVw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB3616 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 01:30:31 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB311742F6AAF81EF6EC55AEDFF2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony and Chris, Thank you very much for your comments. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. This strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. It certainly a= dds complexity to things, I wonder if it's worth it? It is worth it because it reduces service interruption and improves cus= tomer experiences. When users plan to do these operations on a network, they will select a= maintenance window. During this window, there should be minimum service tr= affic being transported in the network. However, there is still some live t= raffic in the network even during this window in general. If we do not prov= ide smooth transferring between a zone/area and its single pseudo node, som= e live traffic will be lost even during this window while doing the transfe= rring. There are some challenges for providing smooth transferring between a z= one and its single pseudo node. I believe that we will be able to have a go= od enough solution. We have had a prototype implementation of smooth transf= erring a zone to the zone edges' full mess in OSPF. The testing shows that = a zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 full= mess without any routing disruptions. In addition, we have spent lots of = time and efforts on smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseud= o node. Moreover, we may get suggestions from the experts in IETF, especial= ly in LSR WG. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Tony Li on behalf of tony.li@tony.li Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:08 PM To: Christian Hopps Cc: Huaimo Chen ; lsr@ietf.org ; l= sr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. This strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. It certainly a= dds complexity to things, I wonder if it's worth it? FWIW, we looked at this quite seriously a while ago. Turning abstraction on= and off is simply not a daily occurrence. Doing it properly requires caref= ul thought and planning. Where are the boundaries? What prefixes will be advertised and with what me= trics? How will the affect traffic flow? The corner cases that happen when you are in this transition are large. We = have to deal with the issue of the metrics that are abstracted away. We ch= ose to go down the path of intra-area vs. inter-area metrics, exactly as OSPF does. But if you do t= his, then you have an issue: the metrics are different when abstraction is = enabled or disabled and different nodes will compute different paths depending on which LSPs have p= ropagated to them. This seemed like a wonderful opportunity for forwarding = loops. This is especially problematic when abstraction is enabled, as there is now an e= ntire area=92s worth of LSPs that need to age out before you can be assured= of consistency. Yes, you can try to purge them, but purges aren=92t the most reliable thing= in the world. Net net, we felt that the complexity exceeded the benefit. Yes, there is be= nefit there, but from the pragmatic viewpoint of making it work in producti= on, the risks and costs seemed very high. We expect that operators would want to make the change in a maintenance win= dow anyway, and as long as you=92re having a maintenance window, you might = as well do things the simpler way. Regards, Tony --_000_MN2PR13MB311742F6AAF81EF6EC55AEDFF2660MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tony and Chris,

    Thank you very much for your comments.

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.
This = strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. It certainly adds c= omplexity to things, I wonder if it's worth it?
    It is worth it because it reduces service interruption and im= proves customer experiences. 

    When users plan to do these operations on a network, they wil= l select a maintenance window. During this window, there should be min= imum service traffic being transported in the network. However, there is st= ill some live traffic in the network even during this window in general. If we do not provide smooth transferring between&n= bsp;a zone/area and its single pseudo node, some live traffic will be = lost even during this window while doing the transferring. 

    There are some challenges for providing smooth transferr= ing between a zone and its single pseudo node. I believe that we will&= nbsp;be able to have a good enough solution. We have had a prototype i= mplementation of smooth transferring a zone to the zone edges' full mess in OSPF. The testing shows that a zone (block of an OSPF ar= ea) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 full mess without any routing d= isruptions.  In addition, we have spent lots of time and efforts on sm= ooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. Moreover, we may get suggestions from the experts in IETF, es= pecially in LSR WG.

Best Regards,
Huaimo

From: Tony Li <tony1atho= me@gmail.com> on behalf of tony.li@tony.li <tony.li@tony.li>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:08 PM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; lsr@ietf.org <= lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 
Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

This strikes me as the important difference from area proxy. It certainly adds = complexity to things, I wonder if it's worth it?


FWIW, we looked at this quite seriously a while ago. Turnin= g abstraction on and off is simply not a daily occurrence. Doing it properl= y requires careful thought and planning. 
Where are the boundaries? What prefixes will be advertised = and with what metrics? How will the affect traffic flow?

The corner cases that happen when you are in this transitio= n are large. We have to deal with the issue of the metrics that are abstrac= ted away.  We chose to go down the path
of intra-area vs. inter-area metrics, exactly as OSPF does.= But if you do this, then you have an issue: the metrics are different when= abstraction is enabled or disabled and 
different nodes will compute different paths depending on w= hich LSPs have propagated to them. This seemed like a wonderful opportunity= for forwarding loops. This
is especially problematic when abstraction is enabled, as t= here is now an entire area=92s worth of LSPs that need to age out before yo= u can be assured of consistency.
Yes, you can try to purge them, but purges aren=92t the mos= t reliable thing in the world.  

Net net, we felt that the complexity exceeded the benefit. = Yes, there is benefit there, but from the pragmatic viewpoint of making it = work in production, the risks and costs seemed very high. 
We expect that operators would want to make the change in a= maintenance window anyway, and as long as you=92re having a maintenance wi= ndow, you might as well do things the
simpler way.

Regards,
Tony

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Wed, 8 Jul 2020 02:22:12 +0000 From: Huaimo Chen To: Christian Hopps CC: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVMqG/6GY0JT6AESVCzXrWEgW5A== Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 02:22:12 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: chopps.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;chopps.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:199:4300:8e5a:d4a5:580d:1d39:e4bd] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f12c9243-1249-4daf-bc1f-08d822e5b98d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR13MB4071: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 5VrZ5NUVF1Z0jKOUJK4JXhGhKA8slNM9R6KtRgFLtpcEPlNTQdB+3EuXVGC7Jol5bJlTZFzoXTEm5q1dBU09C3ibOEOwTehhJTTipYM3zVTJep3OlFdkb5tbEdNXQ+9gxX3Y8QHuBTb7R61QRk/lhsvreVdr6DmBGa3uQgTSTIjG9q5GqVJgLI+XmzfULY1DPnF6+HepaJBqNrLM3aMoRUa0ZUpj+/eTYcCyx4eSHW2gKqTroFwPhIYCO3DU0nOKbmW8bS1yd59U0sz82ni3f7WfEo3YvbBTRzGwUPNBq8kEXXyT7PfWWFiTMYAmLFsIBl8lkq32gxlogFzoAfIXYn42QtnbodJ5+tCTMygEGNlfOpFbYazFbXqT62hXaHNB4SqUpx3O2M/aXzWlM7VR8A== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_MN2PR13MB311795B1BA4157AEEB296534F2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f12c9243-1249-4daf-bc1f-08d822e5b98d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Jul 2020 02:22:12.6435 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: htjb917+XvL6ZcUjKtx4vsibGs2xCIYjPTcoame4O4NrV+Fbk/6NnCU3nV9rQL220q+ejVz5tsqQOHQ+86XDMA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB4071 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 02:22:18 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB311795B1BA4157AEEB296534F2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your comments. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:21 PM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; Acee Lindem (acee); lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Huaimo Chen wrote= : > > Hi Acee and Chris, > > Thank you very much for your comments. > > > I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach of= having the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/ar= ea last Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zon= e/area terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the A= rea Proxy draft includes a much more comprehensive specification of the pro= tocol mechanisms required for area/zone abstraction. I have no doubt that t= he Area Proxy details could also be amended from area proxy to TTZ, but tha= t is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn= =92t a difference. > > Thanks, > Acee > > There are really some differences between TTZ and Area Proxy, which a= re listed below for OSPF and IS-IS: > Differences between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy (note: assume that O= SPF Area Proxy is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even though OSPF Area Proxy i= s not defined in the Area Proxy draft) include: > 1). It seems that OSPF Area Proxy can not be amended to OSPF TTZ. OS= PF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. This abstraction is suppor= ted by the extensions to OSPF, and some of these extensions are not defined= in OSPF Area Proxy. For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the = zone are not defined in OSPF Area Proxy. > 2). OSPF Area Proxy abstracts an existing OSPF area to a single pseu= do node. OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a pi= ece or block of an OSPF area. An OSPF area is different from a zone in gene= ral. > 3). The ways in which they are applied to an OSPF area for scalabilit= y are different. When an OSPF area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have s= calability issues. Using OSPF TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in th= e OSPF area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down.= Using OSPF Area Proxy, we need split the existing OSPF area into multiple = OSPF areas, and then abstract one or a few OSPF areas to one or few pseudo = nodes. Some people may like the one step operation in OSPF TTZ. Others may = like the two step operations in OSPF Area Proxy. > 4). The user experiences are different. For splitting an existing OSP= F area into multiple OSPF areas, users may need put more efforts since it c= auses service interruptions in general. While splitting an OSPF area into m= ultiple OSPF areas, the area numbers configured on some interfaces will be = changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number = and then up with its new area number.. These interface downs and ups will c= ause service interruptions in general.. For defining zones in an OSPF area,= users may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo no= de is smooth without any interface down. > 5). OSPF TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its sing= le pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single= pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.. I think the fact that the above is mixing terms (e.g., OSPF Area Proxy, whi= ch doesn't exist, and OSPF doesn't have pseudo-nodes) is really highlightin= g the fact that, as Acee pointed out, perhaps its not a good idea to be try= ing to update/modify OSPF TTZ (RFC8099), and at the same time introduce som= ething new to IS-IS. It's very confusing right now to have these things all= mixed together like this. [HC]: OSPF Area Proxy does not exist and it seems that Tony is not interest= ed in it. In this case, I think that abstracting a zone to a single node sh= ould be moved forward. It should extends RFC 8099, not update/modify RFC 8= 099. For IS-IS TTZ, it just needs two new TLVs now, which can be reduced to one.= It seems there is not much confusing. I think that it should be moved forw= ard too. For the terms such as pseudo nodes, they can be easily changed if they are = not good. Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] > > Differences between IS-IS TTZ and IS-IS Area Proxy are similar to > the above 1). 2). 3). and 5) between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Proxy. > > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Acee Lindem (acee) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:41 PM > To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > > Speaking as WG member: > > I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach of h= aving the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/area= last Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zone/= area terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Are= a Proxy draft includes a much more comprehensive specification of the proto= col mechanisms required for area/zone abstraction. I have no doubt that the= Area Proxy details could also be amended from area proxy to TTZ, but that = is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92t= a difference. > > Thanks, > Acee > From: Lsr on behalf of Huaimo Chen > Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM > To: Christian Hopps > Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > > Hi Chris, > > Thank you very much for your questions. > My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. > > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Christian Hopps > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM > To: Huaimo Chen > Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > > Hi Huaimo, > > Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are simila= r solutions, right? > > [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. > At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from tha= t in TTZ. > Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. > TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block = of an area. > An area is different from a zone in general. > > Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability a= re different. > When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues.. = Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pse= udo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need sp= lit the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few a= reas to one or few pseudo nodes. > These differences will produce different user experiences. > For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put mo= re efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splittin= g an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers config= ured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will b= e down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These= interface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. > For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstract= ing a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. > > Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single = pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single ps= eudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. > > BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area= to a single pseudo node. > In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo= node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. > > > There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ= so i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for O= SPF; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? > > [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution = for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes = a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solu= tion re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to= OSPF for the new solution are defined in the document. > > Thanks, > Chris. > [chair hat] > > > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen w= rote: > > > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpa= rent Zone" > > > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve= scalability: > > > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo nod= e. > > > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > > > non-backbone area). > > > > > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in th= e sense > > > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseud= o node, > > > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to = reconstruct > > > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zon= e smoothly > > > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edg= es' full > > > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transf= erring > > > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and teste= d. > > > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 = full mess > > > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable = while > > > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to op= erate > > > > the transferring. > > > > > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy f= or IS-IS" > > > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection f= or short). > > > > > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-pro= xy-03 > > > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr= -flood-reflection-01 > > > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r more > > > > flood reflectors. > > > > > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Huaimo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB311795B1BA4157AEEB296534F2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris,

    Thank you very much for your comments.
    My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:21 PM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; Acee Lindem (acee); lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ



> On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com&= gt; wrote:
>
> Hi Acee and Chris,
>
>     Thank you very much for your comments.
>
> > I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the appro= ach of having the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the z= one/area last Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is t= he zone/area terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Area Proxy draft includes a much more comp= rehensive specification of the protocol mechanisms required for area/zone a= bstraction. I have no doubt that the Area Proxy details could also be amend= ed from area proxy to TTZ, but that is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92= t a difference.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>     There are really some differences between TTZ = and Area Proxy, which are listed below for OSPF and IS-IS:
>     Differences between OSPF TTZ and OSPF Area Pro= xy (note: assume that OSPF Area Proxy is similar to IS-IS Area Proxy even t= hough OSPF Area Proxy is not defined in the Area Proxy draft) include:
>     1).  It seems that OSPF Area Proxy can no= t be amended to OSPF TTZ. OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node= . This abstraction is supported by the extensions to OSPF, and some of thes= e extensions are not defined in OSPF Area Proxy. For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the zone are not defined in OSPF Area= Proxy.
>     2).  OSPF Area Proxy abstracts an existin= g OSPF area to a single pseudo node.  OSPF TTZ abstracts a zone to a s= ingle pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of an OSPF area. An OSPF area= is different from a zone in general.
>     3). The ways in which they are applied to an O= SPF area for scalability are different. When an OSPF area becomes bigger an= d bigger, we may have scalability issues. Using OSPF TTZ, we can abstract o= ne or a few zones in the OSPF area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using OSPF Area Proxy, we need = split the existing OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, and then abstract on= e or a few OSPF areas to one or few pseudo nodes. Some people may like the = one step operation in OSPF TTZ. Others may like the two step operations in OSPF Area Proxy.
>     4). The user experiences are different. For sp= litting an existing OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, users may need put = more efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitt= ing an OSPF area into multiple OSPF areas, the area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces= will be down with its old area number and then up with its new area number= .. These interface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in genera= l.. For defining zones in an OSPF area, users may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pse= udo node is smooth without any interface down.
>     5). OSPF TTZ provides smooth transferring betw= een a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly = transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly ro= lled back to the zone..

I think the fact that the above is mixing terms (e.g., OSPF Area Proxy, whi= ch doesn't exist, and OSPF doesn't have pseudo-nodes) is really highlightin= g the fact that, as Acee pointed out, perhaps its not a good idea to be try= ing to update/modify OSPF TTZ (RFC8099), and at the same time introduce something new to IS-IS. It's very confusing= right now to have these things all mixed together like this.

[HC]: OSPF Area Proxy does not exist and it s= eems that Tony is not interested in it. In this case, I think that abstract= ing a zone to a single node should be moved forward.  It should extend= s RFC 8099, not update/modify RFC 8099.
For IS-IS TTZ, it just needs two new TLVs now, whi= ch can be reduced to one. It seems there is not much confusing. I think&n= bsp;that it should be moved forward too. 
For the terms such as pseudo nodes, they can be ea= sily changed if they are not good.  

Thanks,
Chris.
[As WG member]

>
>     Differences between IS-IS TTZ and IS-IS Area P= roxy are similar to
>     the above 1). 2). 3). and 5) between OSPF TTZ = and OSPF Area Proxy.
>
> Best Regards,
> Huaimo
> From: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:41 PM
> To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <= ;chopps@chopps.org>
> Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-cha= irs@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
>
> Speaking as WG member:
>
> I agree with Chris =96 when the IS-IS TTZ draft adopted the approach o= f having the area/zone leader originate a single LSP abstracting the zone/a= rea last Oct, the main differentiation between the two approaches is the zo= ne/area terminology. The other substantive difference is the fact that the Area Proxy draft includes a much more comp= rehensive specification of the protocol mechanisms required for area/zone a= bstraction. I have no doubt that the Area Proxy details could also be amend= ed from area proxy to TTZ, but that is exactly Chris=92s point with which I agree =96 there essentially isn=92= t a difference.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
> From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Huaimo Chen <hu= aimo.chen@futurewei.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM
> To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
> Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@ie= tf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>     Thank you very much for your questions.
>     My answers/explanations are inline below with = prefix [HC].
>
> Best Regards,
> Huaimo
> From: Christian Hopps
> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
> To: Huaimo Chen
> Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
>
> Hi Huaimo,
>
> Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are sim= ilar solutions, right?
>
> [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar.
> At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from = that in TTZ.
> Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node.
> TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or blo= ck of an area.
> An area is different from a zone in general.
>
> Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalabilit= y are different.
> When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues= .. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few = pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need= split the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. > These differences will produce different user experiences.
> For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put= more efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While split= ting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers con= figured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number= and then up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will c= ause service interruptions in general.
> For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstr= acting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down.=
>
> Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its sing= le pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single= pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.<= br> >
> BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS a= rea to a single pseudo node.
> In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pse= udo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
> There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for = TTZ so i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ fo= r OSPF; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?
>
> [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a soluti= on for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document propos= es a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new s= olution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are de= fined in the document.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris.
> [chair hat]
>
>
> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurew= ei.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> >     I would like to request working group ado= ption of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
> >
> > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
> >
> >
> >
> >     This draft comprises the following soluti= ons for helping to improve scalability:
> >
> >         1) abstracting a = zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
> >
> >         2) abstracting a = zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
> >
> >         3) abstracting a = zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
> >
> >         4) transferring s= moothly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
> >
> >     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or= L1 area, OSPF backbone or
> >
> > non-backbone area).
> >
> >
> >
> >     When a network area becomes (too) big, we= can reduce its size in the sense
> >
> > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo no= de or
> >
> > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
> >
> >
> >
> >     While a zone is being abstracted (or tran= sferred) to a single pseudo node,
> >
> > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruptio= n.
> >
> >
> >
> >     After abstracting a few zones to a few ps= eudo nodes, if we want to reconstruct
> >
> > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to i= ts zone smoothly
> >
> > with no or minimum service interruption.
> >
> >
> >
> >     We had a prototype implementation of abst= racting a zone to zone edges' full
> >
> > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring
> >
> > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and= tested.
> >
> > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edg= es=92 full mess
> >
> > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are s= table while
> >
> > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy= to operate
> >
> > the transferring.
> >
> >
> >
> >     There are two other drafts for improving = scalability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
> >
> > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Fl= ood Reflection for short).
> >
> >
> >
> >     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
> >
> > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
> >
> >
> >
> >     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 > >
> > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via= one or more
> >
> > flood reflectors.
> >
> >
> >
> >     We believe that TTZ has some special adva= ntages even though
> >
> > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > >
> > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Huaimo
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lsr mailing list
> > Lsr@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

--_000_MN2PR13MB311795B1BA4157AEEB296534F2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 19:36:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FD03A0FD9; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6k7jrDb0llAr; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (mail-m127101.qiye.163.com [115.236.127.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 963ED3A0FD7; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [106.121.8.104]) by mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id AD9D049001; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:36:10 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-82C3A635-5DC4-4632-ADE9-FA928E01FB2D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:36:09 +0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: Huaimo Chen , Christian Hopps , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUpXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLWVdZKFlBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1 kPCRoVCBIfWUFZH0wdSklOQh8YTENOVkpOQk9KTE5MTEpLQ0xVEwETFhoSFyQUDg9ZV1kWGg8SFR 0UWUFZT0tIVUpKS09ISFVKS0tZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6NhQ6OQw4MDgZOj0YSClOOg4e DxxPFCpVSlVKTkJPSkxOTExKTUlPVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKS01VSklKVUNVSktPWVdZCAFZQU9JTEhLNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a732c47d05b9865kuuuad9d049001 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 02:36:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail-82C3A635-5DC4-4632-ADE9-FA928E01FB2D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Les: Using TTZ to sub divide the existing area seems more attractive. It seems TT= Z can accomplish all the functions Area Proxy can provide, but area proxy ca= n=E2=80=99t cover the scenarios that TTZ can solve. Why don=E2=80=99t we prefer to TTZ? Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Jul 8, 2020, at 08:53, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Huaimo =E2=80=93 > =20 > Sorry for ascribing area merging properties to zones.. As the base protoco= l mechanism in IS-IS can be used both to split and merge areas I was thinkin= g zones could be used the same way, but I see on closer reading that you hav= e restricted a zone to be a subset of an area (which could also be the area i= tself). > =20 > I think this does not detract from the main point I am trying to make =E2=80= =93 which is that unless there is reason to believe that operators would pre= fer to use zones rather than split an area (when necessary), this does not s= erve as a significant differentiator between TTZ and area-proxy. > I think you need a more compelling differentiator to justify proceeding wi= th both drafts. > =20 > In this regard I am agreeing with the points made by other folks (notably C= hris and Tony), that the introduction of zones may well be adding unneeded c= omplexity. > =20 > Just my opinion of course=E2=80=A6 > =20 > Les > =20 > =20 > From: Huaimo Chen =20 > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 12:42 PM > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) ; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > =20 > Hi Les, > =20 > > I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply t= he solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93 or to a= set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expecte= d that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections= do not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear to me that this is a c= ompelling requirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would app= reciate them speaking up and educating us on the requirements. > =20 > How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set of areas (which you also ca= ll a zone)?=20 > A zone is a piece or block of an area. In an area, we can define one or m= ore zones. All these zones are within this area. For a set of areas, we can d= efine one or more zones in each of these areas.. But we can not define a zon= e crossing multiple areas. > =20 > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM > To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > =20 > Huaimo =E2=80=93 > =20 > I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply th= e solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93 or to a s= et of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected t= hat a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do= not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear to me that this is a com= pelling requirement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appre= ciate them speaking up and educating us on the requirements. > =20 > Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from Area-Proxy you= should be focusing on things other than the flexibility of zones over areas= . > =20 > Les > =20 > =20 > From: Huaimo Chen =20 > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) ; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > =20 > Hi Les, > =20 > Thank you very much for your comments. > =20 > There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding t= o IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging.=20 > =20 > At first, the operations/configurations are different.=20 > Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS a= rea to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to abst= ract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of c= onfigurations.=20 > Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to a s= ingle pseudo node. > =46rom operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler. > =20 > Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its sing= le pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single p= seudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. =20= > Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstracting an= existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy.=20 > =20 > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM > To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = > Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > =20 > Huaimo =E2=80=93 > =20 > In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way t= o do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ draft w= as first introduced). > So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is the abi= lity to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not add much va= lue in IS-IS. > =20 > Please consider this in your responses. > =20 > Thanx. > =20 > Les > =20 > =20 > From: Lsr On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM > To: Christian Hopps > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > =20 > Hi Chris, > =20 > Thank you very much for your questions. > My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. > =20 > Best Regards, > Huaimo > From: Christian Hopps > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM > To: Huaimo Chen > Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > =20 > Hi Huaimo, >=20 > Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar= solutions, right? > =20 > [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar.=20 > At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that= in TTZ.=20 > Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node.=20 > TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block o= f an area. > An area is different from a zone in general. > =20 > Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability ar= e different. > When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Us= ing TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split t= he existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas t= o one or few pseudo nodes.=20 > These differences will produce different user experiences.=20 > For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put mor= e efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting a= n area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configured= on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be dow= n with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These inter= face downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general.=20 > For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstracti= ng a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. > =20 > Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single p= seudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. > =20 > BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. > In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. > =20 >=20 > There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSPF;= is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? > =20 > [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution f= or abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a n= ew solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solution= re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to OSPF= for the new solution are defined in the document. >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. > [chair hat] >=20 >=20 > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen wr= ote: > >=20 > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpar= ent Zone" > >=20 > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > >=20 > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > >=20 > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > >=20 > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > >=20 > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node= . > >=20 > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > >=20 > > non-backbone area). > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the= sense > >=20 > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > >=20 > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo= node, > >=20 > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to r= econstruct > >=20 > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone= smoothly > >=20 > > with no or minimum service interruption. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edge= s' full > >=20 > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfe= rring > >=20 > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested= . > >=20 > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess > >=20 > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable w= hile > >=20 > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to ope= rate > >=20 > > the transferring. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy fo= r IS-IS" > >=20 > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection fo= r short). > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-prox= y-03 > >=20 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-= flood-reflection-01 > >=20 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or= more > >=20 > > flood reflectors. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > >=20 > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > >=20 > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > >=20 > >=20 > > Best Regards, > >=20 > > Huaimo > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail-82C3A635-5DC4-4632-ADE9-FA928E01FB2D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Les:

Using TTZ to su= b divide the existing area seems more attractive. It seems TTZ can accomplis= h all the functions Area Proxy can provide, but area proxy can=E2=80=99t cov= er the scenarios that TTZ can solve.
Why don=E2=80=99t we prefer to TTZ?=

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On Jul 8, 2020, at 08:53, Le= s Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF= =

Huaimo =E2=80=93

 

Sorry for ascribing area merging properties to zones.= . As the base protocol mechanism in IS-IS can be used both to split and merg= e areas I was thinking zones could be used the same way, but I see on closer= reading that you have restricted a zone to be a subset of an area (which could also be the area itself).

 

I think this does not detract from the main point I a= m trying to make =E2=80=93 which is that unless there is reason to believe t= hat operators would prefer to use zones rather than split an area (when nece= ssary), this does not serve as a significant differentiator between TTZ and area-proxy.

I think you need a more compelling differentiator to j= ustify proceeding with both drafts.

 

In this regard I am agreeing with the points made by o= ther folks (notably Chris and Tony), that the introduction of zones may well= be adding unneeded complexity.

 

Just my opinion of course=E2=80=A6

 

   Les

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.co= m>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 12:42 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Hop= ps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Les,<= o:p>

&nb= sp;

> I= think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the s= olution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93 or to a set= of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mod= e where the interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t= clear to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators w= ho feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us on the requirements.

&nb= sp;

How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set o= f areas (which you also call a zone)? 

A zone is a piece or block of an area.  In an ar= ea, we can define one or more zones. All these zones are within this area. Fo= r a set of areas, we can define one or more zones in each of these areas.. B= ut we can not define a zone crossing multiple areas.

&nb= sp;

Best Reg= ards,

Huaimo

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huai= mo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Huaimo =E2=80=93

 

I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an o= perator could apply the solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zo= ne) =E2=80=93 or to a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presum= es that it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the interconnections do not follow ar= ea boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear to me that this is a compelling requir= ement. If there are operators who feel otherwise I would appreciate them spe= aking up and educating us on the requirements.

 

Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate T= TZ from Area-Proxy you should be focusing on things other than the flexibili= ty of zones over areas.

 

   Les

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Les,=

 <= /span>

  &= nbsp; Thank you very much for your comments.

 <= /span>

  &= nbsp; There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ regarding t= o IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging. 

 <= /span>

  &= nbsp; At first, the operations/configurations are different. 

  &= nbsp; Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an IS-IS a= rea to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step is to abst= ract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through another set of configurations. 

  &= nbsp; Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone to&nbs= p;a single pseudo node.<= /o:p>

    =46rom operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler.=

 <= /span>

    Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a= zone and its single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transf= erred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.  =

Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for abstra= cting an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area Proxy. 

 <= /span>

Best Re= gards,

Huaimo<= /span>

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huai= mo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Huaimo =E2=80=93

 

In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base p= rotocol provides a way to do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years a= go when IS-IS TTZ draft was first introduced).

So if the major difference/advantage between area-p= roxy and ttz is the ability to use zones to handle area merging/splitting th= is does not add much value in IS-IS.

 

Please consider this in your responses.<= /p>

 

Thanx.

 

    Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@c= hopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chr= is,

 =

 =   Thank you very much for your questions.

 =   My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 =

Best Regards,

Huaimo=

From:= Christian Hopps
= Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org= ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 =

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar s= olutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they l= ooks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy= is different from that in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single p= seudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single p= seudo node. A zone is a piece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in ge= neral.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are a= pplied to an area for scalability are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger= , we may have scalability issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zo= nes in the area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the ex= isting area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one= or few pseudo nodes. 

These differences will produce different user exper= iences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas,= users may need put more efforts since it causes service interruptions in ge= neral. While splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the= area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with i= ts old area number and then up with its new area number. These interface dow= ns and ups will cause service interruptions in general. 

=

For defining zones in an area, us= ers may need less efforts since abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node i= s smooth without any interface down.

 

Moreov= er, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo&nb= sp;node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo n= ode, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW,&n= bsp;In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts a= n existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone= in an OSPF area to a single pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a&n= bsp;single pseudo node.

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ so= i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSPF;= is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to T= TZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution for a= bstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single ps= eudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred.= The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in the document= .

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption o= f "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions fo= r helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone t= o a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone t= o a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone t= o zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smoothl= y between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 ar= ea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can r= educe its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or<= br> >
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferre= d) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption.
= >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo n= odes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zon= e smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstractin= g a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transf= erring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and teste= d.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable w= hile
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to op= erate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scalab= ility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection f= or short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01
= >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantages= even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

_______________________________________________
Lsr ma= iling list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/lsr
= = --Apple-Mail-82C3A635-5DC4-4632-ADE9-FA928E01FB2D-- From nobody Tue Jul 7 19:59:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670AD3A1002; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uw2y9wT-LwG7; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ADC03A0FFC; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id u185so17270665pfu.1; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=O5iQ/j7qeZrRkisxUFh0ccSH9ifb0lTXUjVx89kQjoU=; b=rtRYJW+Z5Dk1/QY1+5j2hQw4gdoPTiLZunDAxZUUUTrgEQUeeM+CnGv5kZY1vVkFf9 zNmaOByi7MX6bD+e6IrTM740ZejEBsdWPNvYQ1JcdRrBpQPygT8fMZP8LRqK0ixngMR4 0AXeT45P1jN3Lmu7okfS7kgSlTPkPibaYM99D7orleTCZmhkpv4aRVTaOD7QWXTV59iJ +ODI6DfA0ezblr1fcUrcU06EW8BKW3JKNM7mhr3puhR9k8mbnm3gwTDgE9FLFcL/0tie XCfptolw/LV+jnCqlNovoWn/g6N5GQusD8nXTNEduzzEVYiSwRV73qsuepCeSF2OOgc7 knwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=O5iQ/j7qeZrRkisxUFh0ccSH9ifb0lTXUjVx89kQjoU=; b=cCU0T9ch6CNAaxxkzvyc0ALKRPAY0KqAwY07UBxphz9GzG+rLRXNxcZs1Rep2tUZSC HhMTG3BbNAgPztetCzyAwWfYWKqf3xVVUq89lBbXH/SM95GHYq1NvVG/pClbCfiL4al6 Wd5/hV3AZ/q8X2deMp2G1t3oyMgNHrEeXaFLkPrKao2G2sPROEF4zPFVWRUeJMLTsDZL p60wZptaF8L7UBEV2Qfrab11RiNclvj1q3DzzHl4CREmfXEV72BIcLAQL+JJBiCO+Aab Vhn3nWdCbjY0bYnpo1/4wTBPJEIe5qADqST9aPYE58MC7pOLvheE4CudLuabQE7C3wk4 RxbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Qz99aG1lPU3NHWnWFGOFbHwmI8vM/OaVEOgt1OJsp01UMc8rw atidaiulBPrbP/EJNR0xXRjPpcHM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvzHVqXqYTZtw7SbDJ7Q2/WgI84xKgTcNBMBdb3Ym34hK3QGnpMbKJox6FCSYM+5Y7IhTITA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:cd0c:: with SMTP id o12mr29643394pfg.70.1594177138858; Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.80.3] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n12sm2149791pgr.88.2020.07.07.19.58.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: <05EB9635-7057-4C33-85E0-8835F156423C@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EE9C43DF-0C31-488E-9D61-E559C36F2574" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:58:55 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , "lsr@ietf.org" , Christian Hopps , Huaimo Chen , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Aijun Wang References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 02:59:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EE9C43DF-0C31-488E-9D61-E559C36F2574 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Aijun, Subdividing an existing area is entirely possible with Area Proxy. You = just have to split the area and then apply Area Proxy. ;-) Tony > On Jul 7, 2020, at 7:36 PM, Aijun Wang = wrote: >=20 > Hi, Les: >=20 > Using TTZ to sub divide the existing area seems more attractive. It = seems TTZ can accomplish all the functions Area Proxy can provide, but = area proxy can=E2=80=99t cover the scenarios that TTZ can solve. > Why don=E2=80=99t we prefer to TTZ? >=20 > Aijun Wang > China Telecom >=20 >> On Jul 8, 2020, at 08:53, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> Huaimo =E2=80=93 >> =20 >> Sorry for ascribing area merging properties to zones... As the base = protocol mechanism in IS-IS can be used both to split and merge areas I = was thinking zones could be used the same way, but I see on closer = reading that you have restricted a zone to be a subset of an area (which = could also be the area itself). >> =20 >> I think this does not detract from the main point I am trying to make = =E2=80=93 which is that unless there is reason to believe that operators = would prefer to use zones rather than split an area (when necessary), = this does not serve as a significant differentiator between TTZ and = area-proxy. >> I think you need a more compelling differentiator to justify = proceeding with both drafts. >> =20 >> In this regard I am agreeing with the points made by other folks = (notably Chris and Tony), that the introduction of zones may well be = adding unneeded complexity. >> =20 >> Just my opinion of course=E2=80=A6 >> =20 >> Les >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Huaimo Chen =20 >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 12:42 PM >> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) ; Christian Hopps = >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >> =20 >> Hi Les, >> =20 >> > I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could = apply the solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93= or to a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that = it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the = interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear = to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators who = feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us on = the requirements. >> =20 >> How do you get that TTZ could be used to a set of areas (which you = also call a zone)?=20 >> A zone is a piece or block of an area. In an area, we can define one = or more zones. All these zones are within this area. For a set of areas, = we can define one or more zones in each of these areas.. But we can not = define a zone crossing multiple areas. >> =20 >> Best Regards, >> Huaimo >> From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 PM >> To: Huaimo Chen >; Christian Hopps > >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org >; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = > >> Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >> =20 >> Huaimo =E2=80=93 >> =20 >> I think what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could = apply the solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93= or to a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that = it is expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the = interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear = to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators who = feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us on = the requirements. >> =20 >> Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from = Area-Proxy you should be focusing on things other than the flexibility = of zones over areas. >> =20 >> Les >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Huaimo Chen >=20 >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 11:13 AM >> To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) >; Christian Hopps > >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = >> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >> =20 >> Hi Les, >> =20 >> Thank you very much for your comments. >> =20 >> There are still some differences between Area Proxy and TTZ = regarding to IS-IS with smooth area splitting and merging.=20 >> =20 >> At first, the operations/configurations are different.=20 >> Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. One step is to split an = IS-IS area to multiple areas through some configurations. The other step = is to abstract an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node through = another set of configurations.=20 >> Using TTZ, only one step is needed, which is to abstract a zone = to a single pseudo node. >> =46rom operations' point of view, TTZ seems simpler. >> =20 >> Secondly, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its = single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone. =20 >> Smooth IS-IS area splitting and merging can not be used for = abstracting an existing IS-IS area to a single pseudo node in Area = Proxy.=20 >> =20 >> Best Regards, >> Huaimo >> From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 PM >> To: Huaimo Chen >; Christian Hopps > >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org >; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = > >> Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >> =20 >> Huaimo =E2=80=93 >> =20 >> In regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a = way to do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS = TTZ draft was first introduced). >> So if the major difference/advantage between area-proxy and ttz is = the ability to use zones to handle area merging/splitting this does not = add much value in IS-IS. >> =20 >> Please consider this in your responses. >> =20 >> Thanx. >> =20 >> Les >> =20 >> =20 >> From: Lsr > On = Behalf Of Huaimo Chen >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 AM >> To: Christian Hopps > >> Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org = >> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >> =20 >> Hi Chris, >> =20 >> Thank you very much for your questions. >> My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. >> =20 >> Best Regards, >> Huaimo >> From: Christian Hopps >> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM >> To: Huaimo Chen >> Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org ; = lsr-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ=20 >> =20 >> Hi Huaimo, >>=20 >> Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are = similar solutions, right? >> =20 >> [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar.=20 >> At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from = that in TTZ.=20 >> Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node.=20 >> TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or = block of an area. >> An area is different from a zone in general. >> =20 >> Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for = scalability are different. >> When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability = issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one = or few pseudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area = Proxy, we need split the existing area into multiple areas, and then = abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes.=20 >> These differences will produce different user experiences.=20 >> For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need = put more efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While = splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area = numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of these = interfaces will be down with its old area number and then up with its = new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause service = interruptions in general.=20 >> For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any = interface down. >> =20 >> Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its = single pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone. >> =20 >> BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS = area to a single pseudo node. >> In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single = pseudo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. >> =20 >>=20 >> There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for = TTZ so i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ = for OSPF; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? >> =20 >> [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a = solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This = document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single = pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are = referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in = the document.. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Chris. >> [chair hat] >>=20 >>=20 >> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen = > wrote: >> >=20 >> > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > I would like to request working group adoption of = "Topology-Transparent Zone" >> >=20 >> > (TTZ for short) = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ = . >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to = improve scalability: >> >=20 >> > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, >> >=20 >> > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, >> >=20 >> > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, = and >> >=20 >> > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo = node. >> >=20 >> > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF = backbone or >> >=20 >> > non-backbone area). >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size = in the sense >> >=20 >> > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node = or >> >=20 >> > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single = pseudo node, >> >=20 >> > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want = to reconstruct >> >=20 >> > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its = zone smoothly >> >=20 >> > with no or minimum service interruption. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone = edges' full >> >=20 >> > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring >> >=20 >> > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested. >> >=20 >> > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its = edges=E2=80=99 full mess >> >=20 >> > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are = stable while >> >=20 >> > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy = to operate >> >=20 >> > the transferring. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area = Proxy for IS-IS" >> >=20 >> > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood = Reflection for short). >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 = >> >=20 >> > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > "Flood Reflection" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 = >> >=20 >> > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via = one or more >> >=20 >> > flood reflectors. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though >> >=20 >> > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like >> >=20 >> > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Best Regards, >> >=20 >> > Huaimo >> >=20 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Lsr mailing list >> > Lsr@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr = _______________________________________________= >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr = --Apple-Mail=_EE9C43DF-0C31-488E-9D61-E559C36F2574 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Aijun,

Subdividing an existing area is = entirely possible with Area Proxy.  You just have to split the area = and then apply Area Proxy.  ;-)

Tony


On Jul 7, 2020, at 7:36 PM, = Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> wrote:

Hi, Les:

Using TTZ to sub divide the existing area seems more = attractive. It seems TTZ can accomplish all the functions Area Proxy can = provide, but area proxy can=E2=80=99t cover the scenarios that TTZ can = solve.
Why don=E2=80=99t we prefer to TTZ?

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On Jul 8, 2020, at 08:53, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Huaimo =E2=80=93
 
Sorry for ascribing area merging = properties to zones... As the base protocol mechanism in IS-IS can be = used both to split and merge areas I was thinking zones could be used = the same way, but I see on closer reading that you have restricted a = zone to be a subset of an area (which could also be the area = itself).
 
I think this does not detract from the main point I am trying = to make =E2=80=93 which is that unless there is reason to believe that = operators would prefer to use zones rather than split an area (when = necessary), this does not serve as a significant differentiator between = TTZ and area-proxy.
I think you need a more compelling differentiator to justify = proceeding with both drafts.
 
In this regard I am agreeing with the = points made by other folks (notably Chris and Tony), that the = introduction of zones may well be adding unneeded complexity.
 
Just my = opinion of course=E2=80=A6
 
   Les
 
 
From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 = 12:42 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG = adoption of TTZ
 
Hi Les,
 
> I think = what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the = solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93 or to = a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is = expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the = interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear = to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators who = feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us on = the requirements.
 
How do you get that TTZ could be = used to a set of areas (which you also call a zone)? 
A zone is a piece or block of an area.  In an area, we = can define one or more zones. All these zones are within this area. For = a set of areas, we can define one or more zones in each of these areas.. = But we can not define a zone crossing multiple areas.
 
Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 3:29 = PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>;= Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG = adoption of TTZ
 
Huaimo =E2=80=93
 
I think = what you are highlighting is that w TTZ an operator could apply the = solution to a subset of an area (which you call a zone) =E2=80=93 or to = a set of areas (which you also call a zone). This presumes that it is = expected that a customer would want to operate in a mode where the = interconnections do not follow area boundaries. It isn=E2=80=99t clear = to me that this is a compelling requirement. If there are operators who = feel otherwise I would appreciate them speaking up and educating us on = the requirements.
 
Absent that, it seems if you want to differentiate TTZ from = Area-Proxy you should be focusing on things other than the flexibility = of zones over areas.
 
   Les
 
 
From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 = 11:13 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = <ginsberg@cisco.com>; = Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG = adoption of TTZ
 
Hi Les,
 
    Thank you very much for your = comments.
 
    There are still some differences between = Area Proxy and TTZ regarding to IS-IS with smooth area splitting and = merging. 
 
    At first, the operations/configurations = are different. 
    Using Area Proxy, two steps are needed. = One step is to split an IS-IS area to multiple areas through some = configurations. The other step is to abstract an existing IS-IS area to = a single pseudo node through another set of = configurations. 
    Using TTZ, only one step is needed, = which is to abstract a zone to a single pseudo node.
    =46rom operations' point of view, TTZ seems = simpler.
 
    Secondly, TTZ = provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. = That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, = and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the = zone.  
Smooth IS-IS area splitting = and merging can not be used for abstracting an existing IS-IS area to a = single pseudo node in Area Proxy. 
 
Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) = <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 12:52 = PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>;= Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG = adoption of TTZ
 
Huaimo =E2=80=93
 
In = regards to merging/splitting areas, IS-IS base protocol provides a way = to do this hitlessly (this was discussed some years ago when IS-IS TTZ = draft was first introduced).
So if the major difference/advantage = between area-proxy and ttz is the ability to use zones to handle area = merging/splitting this does not add much value in IS-IS.
 
Please = consider this in your responses.
 
Thanx.
 
    Les
 
 
From: Lsr= <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 9:00 = AM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG = adoption of TTZ
 
Hi Chris,
 
    Thank you very much for your = questions.
    My answers/explanations are inline below with = prefix [HC].
 
Best = Regards,
Huaimo
From: Christian = Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 = AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG = adoption of TTZ 
 
Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? = They are similar solutions, right?
 
[HC]: There are some differences even though they looks = similar. 
At first, the target to be abstracted = in Area Proxy is different from that in TTZ. 
Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo = node. 
TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone = is a piece or block of an area.
An area is different from a zone in = general.
 
Secondly, the ways in which they = are applied to an area for scalability are different.
When an area becomes bigger and = bigger, we may have scalability issues. Using TTZ, we can abstract one = or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo nodes smoothly without = any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing area = into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few areas to one or few = pseudo nodes. 
These differences will = produce different user experiences. 
For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may = need put more efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. = While splitting an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the = area numbers configured on some interfaces will be changed and each of = these interfaces will be down with its old area number and then up with = its new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause service = interruptions in general. 
For defining zones in an = area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any = interface down.
 
Moreover, = TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single = pseudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a = single pseudo node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to = the zone.
 
BTW, In the Area = Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area = to a single pseudo node.
In = the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo = node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo = node.
 

There's an existing experimental track OSPF = RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ so i found it confusing to have this = document also talking about TTZ for OSPF; is it redefining it, updating = it, just referring to it?
 

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a = solution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This = document proposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single = pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are = referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined in = the document..

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen = <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> = wrote:
> 
> Hi = Chris and Acee, and everyone,
> 
> 
> 
>     I would like to request working = group adoption of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
> 
> (TTZ = for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
> 
> 
> 
>     This draft comprises the = following solutions for helping to improve scalability:
> 
>         1) = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
> 
>         2) = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
> 
>         3) = abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
> 
>         4) = transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
> 
>     A zone is a block of an area = (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or
> 
> = non-backbone area).
> 
> 
> 
>     When a network area becomes = (too) big, we can reduce its size in the sense
> 
> of its = LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or
> 
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
> 
> 
> 
>     While a zone is being abstracted = (or transferred) to a single pseudo node,
> 
> the = network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption.
> 
> 
> 
>     After abstracting a few zones to = a few pseudo nodes, if we want to reconstruct
> 
> them, = we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly
> 
> with no = or minimum service interruption.
> 
> 
> 
>     We had a prototype = implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges' full
> 
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol = extensions for transferring
> 
> = smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested.
> 
> A zone = (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80=99 = full mess
> 
> without = any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable while
> 
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is = very easy to operate
> 
> the = transferring.
> 
> 
> 
>     There are two other drafts for = improving scalability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
> 
> (Area = Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for = short).
> 
> 
> 
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03=
> 
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo = node.
> 
> 
> 
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflecti= on-01
> 
> = abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more
> 
> flood = reflectors.
> 
> 
> 
>     We believe that TTZ has some = special advantages even though
> 
> Area = Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
> 
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> = Huaimo
> 
> = _______________________________________________
> Lsr = mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

_______________________________________________
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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, Thank you very much for your comments. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Acee Lindem (acee) Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 4:33 PM To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Speaking as WG member: Hi Huaimo, Independent of the major issue with Area Proxy differentiation, I have a co= uple other issues that I didn=92t want to include in the same Email thread. 1. You can=92t describe IS-IS protocol details and then just include OSP= F encodings and expect the readers to intuit the OSPF specific details. The= se area abstraction drafts modify basic protocol mechanisms and OSPF detail= s would be better specified in an update to RFC 8099 then just adding encod= ings to this IS-IS TTZ draft. [HC]: We will add more OSPF details. I am OK for OSPF details to be in an u= pdate to RFC 8099. 2. The draft uses the term IS-IS Pseudo-node yet this is defined in IS-I= S as a specific LSP to represent a multi-access network. I don=92t know if = the usage of the terminology was meant to differentiate the mechanisms from= Area Proxy but I find the repurposing of the term pseudo-node in the conte= xt of IS-IS very confusing. [HC]: We will change it to another term. 3. The document keeps referring to =93edges full mess=94 and I believe = you mean =93edges full mesh=94. [HC]: You are right. It should be "edges full mesh". Thanks, Acee From: Lsr on behalf of Huaimo Chen Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM To: Christian Hopps Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen wro= te: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 fu= ll mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB31173E6866EBE031E845B978F2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,

    Thank you very much for your comments.
    My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Acee Lindem (acee) &l= t;acee@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 4:33 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps &= lt;chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

Speaking as WG member:

 

Hi Huaimo,

 

Independent of the major issue with Area Proxy differentiation, I have a co= uple other issues that I didn=92t want to include in the same Email thread.=

 

  1. You can=92t describe IS-IS protocol details and then just include OSPF enco= dings and expect the readers to intuit the OSPF specific details. These are= a abstraction drafts modify basic protocol mechanisms and OSPF details woul= d be better specified in an update to RFC 8099 then just adding encodings to this IS-IS TTZ draft.
    [HC]: We will add more OSPF details. I am OK for OSPF details to be in an u= pdate to RFC 8099. 
  2. The draft uses the term IS-IS Pseudo-node yet this is defined in IS-IS as a= specific LSP to represent a multi-access network. I don=92t know if the us= age of the terminology was meant to differentiate the mechanisms from Area = Proxy but I find the repurposing of the term pseudo-node in the context of IS-IS very confusing.
    [HC]: We will change it to another term. 
  3. The document keeps referring to  =93edges full mess=94 and I believe y= ou mean =93edges full mesh=94.
[HC]: You are right. It should be &qu= ot;edges full mesh".

 

Thanks,

Acee

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@= ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chris,

 

    Thank you very&= nbsp;much for your questions.

    My answers/expl= anations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a pi= ece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in general.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalabilit= y are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues= . Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few p= seudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing area into multiple areas, and= then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. <= /p>

These differences will produce different user experiences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number and the= n up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause ser= vice interruptions in general. 

For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any inter= face down.

 

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth= transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that = a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo = node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW, In the= Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS ar= ea to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pse= udo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.<= /p>

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a s= olution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document p= roposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which = are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined i= n the document.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.co= m> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92= full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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(ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 0688qNR7025683; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:52:23 GMT To: iana-prot-param@iana.org, acee@cisco.com Cc: mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org References: From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <7fab2dc5-df9d-81a8-64cc-ce143ecb545d@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 10:52:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 08:52:28 -0000 Amanda, On 07/07/2020 22:54, Amanda Baber via RT wrote: > Peter, should we go ahead? yes, please. thanks, Peter > > thanks, > Amanda > > On Tue Jul 07 20:14:48 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: >> Gunter is on vacation... >> Thanks, >> Acee >> >> On 7/6/20, 1:14 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" >> wrote: >> >> Hi Ketan, Peter, >> >> I believe we're waiting for Gunter to approve as the remaining expert, >> but we can move ahead if Peter confirms that we don't need to wait. >> >> Best regards, >> Amanda >> >> On Mon Jul 06 03:46:02 2020, ketant@cisco.com wrote: >>> Hi Amanda/All, >>> >>> I thought that there was an agreement to assign bit 0x00000010 for >>> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf- >>> lsr- >>> dynamic-flooding? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Ketan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Amanda Baber via RT >>> Sent: 04 July 2020 07:53 >>> To: Acee Lindem (acee) >>> Cc: Peter Psenak (ppsenak) ; mrajesh@juniper.net; >>> lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ; >>> gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; >>> alvaro.retana@futurewei.com; acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org >>> Subject: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft- >>> ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode >>> >>> Hi Peter, all, >>> >>>>> For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration >>>>> is >>>>> described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may >>>>> have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation >>>>> procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication >>>>> for >>>>> permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, >>>>> permanent >>>>> registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any >>>>> time. >>>>> Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation >>>>> from that registration? >>>> >>>> please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. >>> >>> The "TEMPORARY" designation has been removed from the draft-ietf-lsr- >>> dynamic-flooding registration in LLS Type 1 Extended Options and >>> Flags, currently still assigned 0x00000010: >>> >>> https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs >>> >>> thanks, >>> Amanda >> >> > > > From nobody Wed Jul 8 06:34:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EFDA3A0B2A; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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\(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 08:29:26 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" To: Les Ginsberg References: <159413489833.5281.16624960404974015532@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 15:29:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_445C0A6A-34FF-4359-B754-43A641746BFB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Les, > The new definitions in the latest version in the draft are very close = to what we discussed in the earlier thread =E2=80=93 so this looks = pretty good to me. Excellent, thanks. > I still have some concerns regarding the Area Segment SID. > You propose to advertise this in two places: > =20 > 1)As a sub-TLV of the new Area Proxy TLV > 2)As a new sub-TLV of the existing Binding TLVs (149, 150) > =20 > I am not sure why you need this in the Area Proxy TLV as you allow = Binding TLVs to be advertised in the Proxy LSPs (Section 4.4.10). > ??? Again, the subTLVs of the area proxy TLV are for the coordination of the = Inside Area. The Area Proxy TLV appears in the Inside Node=E2=80=99s = normal LSP. The Proxy LSP is for informing the Outside Area. It=E2=80=99s fairly important that we install the forwarding state for = the Area Segment SID and distribute the Proxy System ID before we = advertise the Proxy LSP. > If this is what is intended, it raises a number of concerns: > =20 > If both are present and inconsistent how are they used? If both are present and inconsistent, then we have a major malfunction = of the Area Leader, since it is the single system that is intentionally = advertising both. The Inside Nodes would follow the contents of the Area Proxy TLV and = employ one SID value. The Outsiide Nodes would follow the contents of the Proxy LSP and employ = a different SID value. Hilarity ensues. Note that this is somewhat analogous to a system that wished to = advertise a loopback interface and advertised one prefix into L1 and = another prefix into L2. > As Area Proxy TLV does not support MT (not suggesting that it should) = it isn=E2=80=99t clear how this relates to MT context =E2=80=93 which = exists for TLVs 149/150. > =20 > Encoding wise, if we are to support Area Segment SID in the Binding = TLVs, I think more detail needs to be provided as to flag settings when = the new sub-TLV is present. > The following flags are currently defined for the Binding TLVs: > =20 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |F|M|S|D|A| | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > =20 > F,S,D flags seem applicable w/o change. > However, M flag would need to be clear when Area Segment SID is = present. > The A flag seems not applicable to Area Segment SID > And your encoding violates the current definition of Binding TLVs. > Specifically, = https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#section-2.4.4 = states: > =20 > =E2=80=9CThe Prefix-SID sub-TLV is defined in Section 2.1 = and = contains the SID/Index/Label value associated with the prefix and range. > The Prefix-SID sub-TLV MUST be present in the SID/Label Binding TLV = when the M-Flag is clear. > The Prefix-SID sub-TLV MUST NOT be present when the M-Flag is set.=E2=80= =9D > =20 > While some changes to this definition are likely required to support = Area Segment SID no matter what, it is hard for me to see a good way to = do this w/o adding a new flag. I=E2=80=99m open to suggestions here. We are abusing the definition of the Binding TLV. 2.4 says: "The = SID/Label Binding TLV may be used to advertise prefixes to SID/Label = mappings.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s not what we=E2=80=99re doing, so = it=E2=80=99s not too surprising that there=E2=80=99s some conflicts. Tony --Apple-Mail=_445C0A6A-34FF-4359-B754-43A641746BFB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Les,


The new definitions in the latest version in the draft = are very close to what we discussed in the earlier thread =E2=80=93 so = this looks pretty good to me.


Excellent, = thanks.


I still have some concerns = regarding the Area Segment SID.
You propose to advertise this in two places:
 
1)As a = sub-TLV of the new Area Proxy TLV
2)As a new sub-TLV of the existing = Binding TLVs (149, 150)
 
I am not sure why you need this in the Area Proxy TLV as you = allow Binding TLVs to be advertised in the Proxy LSPs (Section = 4.4.10).
???


Again, the subTLVs of the area proxy TLV are for = the coordination of the Inside Area. The Area Proxy TLV appears in the = Inside Node=E2=80=99s normal LSP.

The = Proxy LSP is for informing the Outside Area.

It=E2=80=99s fairly important that we install the = forwarding state for the Area Segment SID and distribute the Proxy = System ID before we advertise the Proxy LSP.


If this = is what is intended, it raises a number of concerns:
 
If both = are present and inconsistent how are they = used?


If both are present and inconsistent, then we have = a major malfunction of the Area Leader, since it is the single system = that is intentionally advertising both.

The Inside Nodes would follow the contents of the = Area Proxy TLV and employ one SID value.

The Outsiide Nodes would follow the contents of = the Proxy LSP and employ a different SID value.

Hilarity ensues.

Note that this is somewhat analogous to a system = that wished to advertise a loopback interface and advertised one prefix = into L1 and another prefix into L2.


As Area = Proxy TLV does not support MT (not suggesting that it should) it isn=E2=80= =99t clear how this relates to MT context =E2=80=93 which exists for = TLVs 149/150.
 
Encoding wise, if we are to support Area Segment SID in the = Binding TLVs, I think more detail needs to be provided as to flag = settings when the new sub-TLV is present.
The following flags are currently = defined for the Binding TLVs:
 
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|F|M|S|D|A|     |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 
F,S,D flags seem applicable w/o = change.
However, M flag would need to be clear when Area Segment SID = is present.
The A flag seems not applicable to Area Segment SID
And your = encoding violates the current definition of Binding TLVs.
 
=E2=80=9CTh= e Prefix-SID sub-TLV is defined in Section = 2.1 and contains = the SID/Index/Label value associated with the prefix and range.
 The = Prefix-SID sub-TLV MUST be present in the SID/Label = Binding TLV when the M-Flag is clear.
 The Prefix-SID sub-TLV MUST = NOT be present = when the M-Flag is set.=E2=80=9D
 
While some changes to this definition = are likely required to support Area Segment SID no matter what, it is = hard for me to see a good way to do this w/o adding a new = flag.


I=E2=80=99m open to suggestions = here.

We are abusing the definition of the Binding TLV.  2.4 says: = "The SID/Label Binding TLV may be used to = advertise prefixes to SID/Label = mappings.=E2=80=9D  That=E2=80=99s not what we=E2=80=99re = doing, so it=E2=80=99s not too surprising that there=E2=80=99s some = conflicts.

Tony


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bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Jul 2020 11:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: <58583156-3E21-4CBF-9842-23E9ECF6B05F@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0278C6F7-4B03-4760-AC70-74FAEC56BFF6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 11:12:08 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" To: Les Ginsberg References: <159413489833.5281.16624960404974015532@ietfa.amsl.com> <2C44E16A-E7D1-4092-8454-5CE066A2F4B9@tony.li> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-01.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 18:12:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0278C6F7-4B03-4760-AC70-74FAEC56BFF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Les, > Again, the subTLVs of the area proxy TLV are for the coordination of = the Inside Area. The Area Proxy TLV appears in the Inside Node=E2=80=99s = normal LSP. > =20 > The Proxy LSP is for informing the Outside Area. > =20 > [Les:] Understood =E2=80=93 but I do not see why this requires you to = advertise the SID in two different TLVs. As you allow the Binding SID = TLVs to be advertised in both standard LSPs and Proxy LSPs, there seems = to be no need for two different TLVs to include the advertisement. > ?? The semantics are completely different. Advertising it in the Binding = TLV is permission to use the SID for packet forwarding. The advertisement in the Area Proxy LSP is to instruct the Inside Nodes = to use that SID to establish the forwarding state. =20 > [Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 of course =E2=80=93 this is pathological. = (Probably not hilarious to the customer. =F0=9F=98=8A ) No doubt, but I=E2=80=99ve found that if one doesn=E2=80=99t regard bugs = with some humor, our profession would be morose, in the extreme. > I am just saying by having two sources for the advertisement you = introduce the possibility of inconsistency =E2=80=93 and the spec would = have to speak to this =E2=80=93 even if it should not happen. Ummm=E2=80=A6. Not sure what I can say other than =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t = write bugs=E2=80=9D. But ok, I=E2=80=99ll happily do so. > We are abusing the definition of the Binding TLV. 2.4 says: "The = SID/Label Binding TLV may be used to advertise prefixes to SID/Label = mappings.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s not what we=E2=80=99re doing, so = it=E2=80=99s not too surprising that there=E2=80=99s some conflicts. > =20 > [Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 the Binding TLV has some issues being = generalized. There is history here as to why the format is the way it is = and why it isn=E2=80=99t more easily extensible =E2=80=93 and that is = open for discussion AFAIAC, but we cannot break backwards compatibility = for SR. Agreed, trying not to. :-) > But I am also responding (in part) to your desire to make the Area = Segment SID a more general tool =E2=80=93 usable outside of Area Proxy = =E2=80=93 which seems like a good goal. And you=E2=80=99ve requested that we put the Area Segment SID in the = Binding TLV. I=E2=80=99ve tried to do so and you don=E2=80=99t like how = I=E2=80=99ve done it. Please tell me what I can do that will satisfy = you. =46rom what you=E2=80=99ve said so far, there is no legal way to = use the Binding TLV. Catch-22. Yossarian! Regards, Tony --Apple-Mail=_0278C6F7-4B03-4760-AC70-74FAEC56BFF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Les,


Again, the subTLVs of the = area proxy TLV are for the coordination of the Inside Area. The Area = Proxy TLV appears in the Inside Node=E2=80=99s normal LSP.
 
The Proxy LSP is for informing the = Outside Area.
 
[Les:] = Understood =E2=80=93 but I do not see why this requires you to advertise = the SID in two different TLVs. As you allow the Binding SID TLVs to be = advertised in both standard LSPs and Proxy LSPs, there seems to be no = need for two different TLVs to include the = advertisement.
??


The semantics are = completely different. Advertising it in the Binding TLV is permission to = use the SID for packet forwarding.

The= advertisement in the Area Proxy LSP is to instruct the Inside Nodes to = use that SID to establish the forwarding state.  


[Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 = of course =E2=80=93 this is pathological. (Probably not hilarious to the = customer. =F0=9F=98=8A )
=

No doubt, but I=E2=80=99= ve found that if one doesn=E2=80=99t regard bugs with some humor, our = profession would be morose, in the extreme.


I am just saying by having two sources for the advertisement = you introduce the possibility of inconsistency =E2=80=93 and the spec = would have to speak to this =E2=80=93 even if it should not = happen.


Ummm=E2=80=A6. Not sure = what I can say other than =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t write bugs=E2=80=9D. =  But ok, I=E2=80=99ll happily do so.


We are abusing the = definition of the Binding TLV.  2.4 says: "The SID/Label Binding TLV may be used to advertise = prefixes to SID/Label mappings.=E2=80=9D  That=E2=80=99s not what = we=E2=80=99re doing, so it=E2=80=99s not too surprising that there=E2=80=99= s some conflicts.
 
[Les:] Yes =E2=80=93 the Binding TLV has some = issues being generalized. There is history here as to why the format is = the way it is and why it isn=E2=80=99t more easily extensible =E2=80=93 = and that is open for discussion AFAIAC, but we cannot break backwards = compatibility for = SR.


Agreed, trying not to. = :-)


But I am = also responding (in part) to your desire to make the Area Segment SID a = more general tool =E2=80=93 usable outside of Area Proxy =E2=80=93 which = seems like a good goal.


And you=E2=80=99ve = requested that we put the Area Segment SID in the Binding TLV. =  I=E2=80=99ve tried to do so and you don=E2=80=99t like how I=E2=80=99= ve done it.  Please tell me what I can do that will satisfy you. =  =46rom what you=E2=80=99ve said so far, there is no legal way to = use the Binding TLV.

Catch-22. =  Yossarian!

Regards,
Tony

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243bdc7d-494f-468e-e147-08d82379b760 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Jul 2020 20:01:34.6400 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: hxRrkuTHt6aUkNRmv8VlGj9p/4SZKwdvyRejz2fxzSDAIXGkyK1dCZ3zAcJGHmouhVDu9hrS+MA9haniqZCvUQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB2893 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 20:01:42 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB3117693FE3412AAEBE4522CEF2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, Thank you very much for your suggestion. I have removed the OSPF details from the draft. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Acee Lindem (acee) Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 9:37 AM To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ On PTO so will be brief=85 Inline From: Huaimo Chen Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 11:22 PM To: Acee Lindem , Christian Hopps Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Acee, Thank you very much for your comments. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Acee Lindem (acee) Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 4:33 PM To: Huaimo Chen ; Christian Hopps Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Speaking as WG member: Hi Huaimo, Independent of the major issue with Area Proxy differentiation, I have a co= uple other issues that I didn=92t want to include in the same Email thread. 1. You can=92t describe IS-IS protocol details and then just include = OSPF encodings and expect the readers to intuit the OSPF specific details. = These area abstraction drafts modify basic protocol mechanisms and OSPF det= ails would be better specified in an update to RFC 8099 then just adding en= codings to this IS-IS TTZ draft. [HC]: We will add more OSPF details. I am OK for OSPF details to be in an u= pdate to RFC 8099. Just not in the IS-IS TTZ draft. OSPF and IS-IS have different protocol mec= hanisms and completely different terminology. Thanks, Acee 2. The draft uses the term IS-IS Pseudo-node yet this is defined in I= S-IS as a specific LSP to represent a multi-access network. I don=92t know = if the usage of the terminology was meant to differentiate the mechanisms f= rom Area Proxy but I find the repurposing of the term pseudo-node in the co= ntext of IS-IS very confusing. [HC]: We will change it to another term. 3. The document keeps referring to =93edges full mess=94 and I belie= ve you mean =93edges full mesh=94. [HC]: You are right. It should be "edges full mesh". Thanks, Acee From: Lsr on behalf of Huaimo Chen Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM To: Christian Hopps Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Chris, Thank you very much for your questions. My answers/explanations are inline below with prefix [HC]. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Christian Hopps Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right? [HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a piece or block of= an area. An area is different from a zone in general. Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalability are= different. When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues. Usi= ng TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few pseudo= nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split= the existing area into multiple areas, and then abstract one or a few area= s to one or few pseudo nodes. These differences will produce different user experiences. For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be = down with its old area number and then up with its new area number. These i= nterface downs and ups will cause service interruptions in general. For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since abstractin= g a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any interface down. Moreover, TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single ps= eudo node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseu= do node, and the pseudo node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. BTW, In the Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS area t= o a single pseudo node. In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pseudo n= ode, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node. There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it? [HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a solution fo= r abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document proposes a = new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new soluti= on re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which are referred. The new extensions to O= SPF for the new solution are defined in the document. Thanks, Chris. [chair hat] > On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen wro= te: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 fu= ll mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_MN2PR13MB3117693FE3412AAEBE4522CEF2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,

    Thank you very much for your suggestion.
    I have removed the OSPF details from the draft.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Acee Lindem (acee) &l= t;acee@cisco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 9:37 AM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps &= lt;chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

On PTO so will be brief=85 Inline

 

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.= com>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 11:22 PM
To: Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>, Christian Hopps <chopps@c= hopps.org>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@= ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Acee,

 

    Thank you very = much for your comments.

    My answers/expl= anations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From:= Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 4:33 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Christian Hopps &= lt;chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Speaking as WG member:

 

Hi Huaimo,

 

Independent of the major issue with Area Proxy differentiation, I have a co= uple other issues that I didn=92t want to include in the same Email thread.=

 

1.       You can=92t describe IS-IS protocol details and then just inc= lude OSPF encodings and expect the readers to intuit the OSPF specific deta= ils. These area abstraction drafts modify basic protocol mechanisms and OSP= F details would be better specified in an update to RFC 8099 then just adding encodings to this IS-IS TTZ draf= t.
[HC]: We will add more OSPF details. I am OK for OSPF details to be in an u= pdate to RFC 8099. 

 

Just not in the IS-IS TTZ draft. OSPF and IS-IS have different protocol mec= hanisms and completely different terminology.

Thanks,

Acee

 

2.       The draft uses the term IS-IS Pseudo-node yet this is defined= in IS-IS as a specific LSP to represent a multi-access network. I don=92t = know if the usage of the terminology was meant to differentiate the mechani= sms from Area Proxy but I find the repurposing of the term pseudo-node in the context of IS-IS very confusing= .
[HC]: We will change it to another term. 

3.       The document keeps referring to  =93edges full mess=94 a= nd I believe you mean =93edges full mesh=94.

[HC]: You are right. It should be "ed= ges full mesh".

 

Thanks,

Acee

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on be= half of Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "lsr-chairs@= ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Chris,

 

    Thank you very&= nbsp;much for your questions.

    My answers/expl= anations are inline below with prefix [HC].

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From: Christian Hopps
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:08 AM
To: Huaimo Chen
Cc: Christian Hopps; lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Huaimo,

Can you speak to the differences of this with Area Proxy? They are similar = solutions, right?

 

[HC]: There are some differences even though they looks similar. 

At first, the target to be abstracted in Area Proxy is different from that = in TTZ. 

Area Proxy abstracts an existing area to a single pseudo node. 

TTZ abstracts a zone to a single pseudo node. A zone is a pi= ece or block of an area.

An area is different from a zone in general.

 

Secondly, the ways in which they are applied to an area for scalabilit= y are different.

When an area becomes bigger and bigger, we may have scalability issues= . Using TTZ, we can abstract one or a few zones in the area to one or few p= seudo nodes smoothly without any interface down. Using Area Proxy, we need split the existing area into multiple areas, and= then abstract one or a few areas to one or few pseudo nodes. <= /p>

These differences will produce different user experiences. 

For splitting an existing area into multiple areas, users may need put more= efforts since it causes service interruptions in general. While splitting = an area such as an OSPF area into multiple areas, the area numbers configur= ed on some interfaces will be changed and each of these interfaces will be down with its old area number and the= n up with its new area number. These interface downs and ups will cause ser= vice interruptions in general. 

For defining zones in an area, users may need less efforts since = abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node is smooth without any inter= face down.

 

Moreover, TTZ provides smooth= transferring between a zone and its single pseudo node. That is that = a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single pseudo node, and the pseudo = node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone.

 

BTW, In the= Area Proxy draft, Area Proxy abstracts an existing IS-IS ar= ea to a single pseudo node.

In the TTZ draft, TTZ abstracts a zone in an OSPF area to a single pse= udo node, and a zone in an IS-IS area to a single pseudo node.<= /p>

 


There's an existing experimental track OSPF RFC (RFC8099) already for TTZ s= o i found it confusing to have this document also talking about TTZ for OSP= F; is it redefining it, updating it, just referring to it?

 

[HC]: Regarding to TTZ for OSPF, OSPF RFC (RFC8099) describes a s= olution for abstracting a zone to the zone edges full mess. This document p= roposes a new solution for abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node. The new solution re-uses some of RFC 8099, to which = are referred. The new extensions to OSPF for the new solution are defined i= n the document.

Thanks,
Chris.
[chair hat]


> On Jun 18, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.co= m> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .
>
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zo= ne smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for trans= ferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92= full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable= while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to o= perate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

--_000_MN2PR13MB3117693FE3412AAEBE4522CEF2670MN2PR13MB3117namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 8 13:07:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096CE3A07A8 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 13:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CGxw8nWp2H_4 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 13:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp01.icann.org (smtp01.icann.org [192.0.33.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 718663A077D for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 13:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from request4.lax.icann.org (request1.lax.icann.org [10.32.11.221]) by smtp01.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34407E028C; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:07:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by request4.lax.icann.org (Postfix, from userid 48) id 2FFF720447; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:07:13 +0000 (UTC) RT-Owner: amanda.baber From: "Amanda Baber via RT" Reply-To: iana-prot-param@iana.org In-Reply-To: References: <7fab2dc5-df9d-81a8-64cc-ce143ecb545d@cisco.com> Message-ID: X-RT-Loop-Prevention: IANA X-RT-Ticket: IANA #1173602 X-Managed-BY: RT 4.4.3 (http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/) X-RT-Originator: amanda.baber@icann.org To: acee@cisco.com CC: ppsenak@cisco.com, mrajesh@juniper.net, lsr@ietf.org, ketant@cisco.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, alvaro.retana@futurewei.com, acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-RT-Original-Encoding: utf-8 Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 20:07:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 20:07:15 -0000 Hi Peter, Ketan, Acee, We've added a permanent entry for B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options and Flags registry and moved the Flooding Request bit registration to 0x00000020: 0x00000010 B-bit [draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01] 0x00000020 Flooding Request bit [draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding] Please see https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs Best regards, Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist On Wed Jul 08 08:53:07 2020, ppsenak@cisco.com wrote: > Amanda, > > On 07/07/2020 22:54, Amanda Baber via RT wrote: > > Peter, should we go ahead? > > yes, please. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > thanks, > > Amanda > > > > On Tue Jul 07 20:14:48 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: > >> Gunter is on vacation... > >> Thanks, > >> Acee > >> > >> On 7/6/20, 1:14 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT" > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Ketan, Peter, > >> > >> I believe we're waiting for Gunter to approve as the remaining expert, > >> but we can move ahead if Peter confirms that we don't need to wait. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Amanda > >> > >> On Mon Jul 06 03:46:02 2020, ketant@cisco.com wrote: > >>> Hi Amanda/All, > >>> > >>> I thought that there was an agreement to assign bit 0x00000010 for > >>> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf- > >>> lsr- > >>> dynamic-flooding? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Ketan > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Amanda Baber via RT > >>> Sent: 04 July 2020 07:53 > >>> To: Acee Lindem (acee) > >>> Cc: Peter Psenak (ppsenak) ; mrajesh@juniper.net; > >>> lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ; > >>> gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; > >>> alvaro.retana@futurewei.com; acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > >>> Subject: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft- > >>> ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode > >>> > >>> Hi Peter, all, > >>> > >>>>> For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration > >>>>> is > >>>>> described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this may > >>>>> have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation > >>>>> procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication > >>>>> for > >>>>> permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree, > >>>>> permanent > >>>>> registrations can be made in Expert Review registries at any > >>>>> time. > >>>>> Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY" designation > >>>>> from that registration? > >>>> > >>>> please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. > >>> > >>> The "TEMPORARY" designation has been removed from the draft-ietf-lsr- > >>> dynamic-flooding registration in LLS Type 1 Extended Options and > >>> Flags, currently still assigned 0x00000010: > >>> > >>> https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs > >>> > >>> thanks, > >>> Amanda > >> > >> > > > > > > > From nobody Wed Jul 8 21:14:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F43A3A0EFF for ; Wed, 8 Jul 2020 21:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 9 Jul 2020 04:13:53 +0000 Received: from MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::658f:69a3:2fc5:d430]) by MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::658f:69a3:2fc5:d430%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3174.022; Thu, 9 Jul 2020 04:13:53 +0000 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: "iana-prot-param@iana.org" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" CC: "alvaro.retana@futurewei.com" , "gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com" , "mrajesh@juniper.net" , "acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode Thread-Index: AQHWUaoJIGIEl37QhkiRCkbDgF5Dqqj56/awgADifQ6AAcSLAIAAC13egADIgoCAALyhMIAAh9Ng Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 04:13:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7fab2dc5-df9d-81a8-64cc-ce143ecb545d@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: iana.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iana.org; 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SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(376002)(396003)(346002)(366004)(136003)(6506007)(33656002)(54906003)(86362001)(110136005)(2906002)(186003)(4326008)(8676002)(6636002)(52536014)(107886003)(7696005)(8936002)(9686003)(55016002)(26005)(5660300002)(966005)(71200400001)(83380400001)(478600001)(64756008)(66446008)(66476007)(66556008)(66946007)(76116006)(316002)(53546011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: Ls03EwnySWHYwLqNzOXPY59DOW4bc1Gq7MSpWnfbr7KdCjFqTSd46iYAv8FW/ghgECRZv80bJfxhtkiQ2VOACapGQwUSm9CM5ldjtsq2Jc1xCnkepe0JMN79OI4f3EfxL8O0WRT4ipyMPuz4SJLlR5wSV6hyX8/EtAiWq4wWKpBLwPw5oM9dxWXg9ZVIFQv1R+wLY+HsRgcdVG1d71qe3V3QuHHHKwa7z9zQl1/BoY5oomdE/KqN04kEl8m1uZVMMku2ukqcS9JU9tq6odTbCZWcVRae5VRMNqhl+UrYnholamWeYNt58wPDLW8vhErYWCxCdptXAeiLcED2XkSJfkWWPU0PcErHf0NabLU2UdnbY4r1SIT87uI94tLL/NGyRXiPDbkPyudHSzvEe7yu6c2QV/PiOHajHYUEVWEn9AwpQoqlY0YczOcWTjfjsbC8fPn9Q42/7phpwjYQUypQyLXXW0KfUglH+tLbZkmTv20= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 400a4f46-b3e1-4b31-6015-08d823be7db0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jul 2020 04:13:53.1090 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: z6H5IAuw+lC9tjfI5E0XI+C4PWfqO0fU1nV2gJT76uYzfJ2CLJSARpRJrSZvxts3OcNzIhHyqEVyD3NSWoBxLQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW3PR11MB4714 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 04:14:04 -0000 Thanks Amanda. -----Original Message----- From: Lsr On Behalf Of Amanda Baber via RT Sent: 09 July 2020 01:37 To: Acee Lindem (acee) Cc: alvaro.retana@futurewei.com; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ; gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; mrajesh@juniper.net; acee=3D40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; Peter Psenak (ppsenak= ) Subject: [Lsr] [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for draft-= ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode Hi Peter, Ketan, Acee,=20 We've added a permanent entry for B-bit in the LLS Type 1 Extended Options = and Flags registry and moved the Flooding Request bit registration to 0x000= 00020: 0x00000010 B-bit [draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode-01] 0x00000020 Flooding Request bit [draft-ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding] Please see https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs Best regards, Amanda Baber Lead IANA Services Specialist On Wed Jul 08 08:53:07 2020, ppsenak@cisco.com wrote: > Amanda, >=20 > On 07/07/2020 22:54, Amanda Baber via RT wrote: > > Peter, should we go ahead? >=20 > yes, please. >=20 > thanks, > Peter >=20 > >=20 > > thanks, > > Amanda > >=20 > > On Tue Jul 07 20:14:48 2020, acee@cisco.com wrote: > >> Gunter is on vacation... > >> Thanks, > >> Acee > >> > >> On 7/6/20, 1:14 PM, "Amanda Baber via RT"=20 > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Ketan, Peter, > >> > >> I believe we're waiting for Gunter to approve as the remaining=20 > >> expert, but we can move ahead if Peter confirms that we don't need to = wait. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Amanda > >> > >> On Mon Jul 06 03:46:02 2020, ketant@cisco.com wrote: > >>> Hi Amanda/All, > >>> > >>> I thought that there was an agreement to assign bit 0x00000010 for=20 > >>> draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode and 0x00000020 for draft-ietf- > >>> lsr- > >>> dynamic-flooding? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Ketan > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Amanda Baber via RT > >>> Sent: 04 July 2020 07:53 > >>> To: Acee Lindem (acee) > >>> Cc: Peter Psenak (ppsenak) ;=20 > >>> mrajesh@juniper.net; lsr@ietf.org; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)=20 > >>> ; gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com;=20 > >>> aretana.ietf@gmail.com; alvaro.retana@futurewei.com;=20 > >>> acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > >>> Subject: [IANA #1173602] Re: IANA early allocation request for=20 > >>> draft- ietf-lsr-ospf-bfd-strict-mode > >>> > >>> Hi Peter, all, > >>> > >>>>> For both Peter and Gunter: the Flooding Request bit registration=20 > >>>>> is described in the registry as a temporary allocation, but this=20 > >>>>> may have been an mistake The RFC 7120 temporary early allocation=20 > >>>>> procedure is meant for registries that require RFC publication=20 > >>>>> for permanent registration. In theory, if the experts agree,=20 > >>>>> permanent registrations can be made in Expert Review registries=20 > >>>>> at any time. > >>>>> Would there be an issue with removing the "TEMPORARY"=20 > >>>>> designation from that registration? > >>>> > >>>> please go ahead and remove the TEMPORARY. > >>> > >>> The "TEMPORARY" designation has been removed from the=20 > >>> draft-ietf-lsr- dynamic-flooding registration in LLS Type 1=20 > >>> Extended Options and Flags, currently still assigned 0x00000010: > >>> > >>> https://www.iana.org/assignments/ospf-lls-tlvs > >>> > >>> thanks, > >>> Amanda > >> > >> > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Fri Jul 10 05:40:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C0B3A0C25; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 05:40:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159438483378.16183.3140230800953141711@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 05:40:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-08.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:40:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : IGP Flexible Algorithm Authors : Peter Psenak Shraddha Hegde Clarence Filsfils Ketan Talaulikar Arkadiy Gulko Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-08.txt Pages : 36 Date : 2020-07-10 Abstract: IGP protocols traditionally compute best paths over the network based on the IGP metric assigned to the links. Many network deployments use RSVP-TE based or Segment Routing based Traffic Engineering to enforce traffic over a path that is computed using different metrics or constraints than the shortest IGP path. This document proposes a solution that allows IGPs themselves to compute constraint based paths over the network. This document also specifies a way of using Segment Routing (SR) Prefix-SIDs and SRv6 locators to steer packets along the constraint-based paths. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-flex-algo-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jul 10 10:08:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2736D3A00B0; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ELkqnDoq2Iwz; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 489633A00B3; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id q8so6780819iow.7; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:08:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m+a4AJOIcBZsPMtnk6Gdii1hHdXhiSUBrTg2blXjOFQ=; b=gof3fyMe5Nhz0PO+UijhbLOPrBDGBLfXIRug5fQzKsbUhrj3Lt7b1yuA+06tq1VZP7 QL83/ewUKULmk6jN4djh0mdeQHXU2NP652SlCsFv8R5LBGlZejs9heIdC7SK1tm4YGXe vBABSEV6ocJ+/Yp21dqcUOs24egNpZLG19gbseL1vzeF5Q0WmuDWj83hvZ0mGvknXZIl DBhoR0vE6HA+JXB+44E0pU96+vFTSs1V15xaFdTz69ZVXB0dc5HKys9zu1uiYesvV4wD zdS+Tmozx4RUapgv4ELFj6WhxreqwiKSKwvtB6kkNpKcjGU/ifmZ3Uyh2Oaipii1AfgX Q/gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m+a4AJOIcBZsPMtnk6Gdii1hHdXhiSUBrTg2blXjOFQ=; b=d9jjpxPjtOkvZHwXrRBYU+4dOtpxjV2c3BuZ2XBH5Mj0eDGchV/Wam+zFiOqlTp+7d Z25Y1vuiPmeAnbbiQWcOni4DaxGHnvlzgyLlh90WX55jsD7uE8rGWDZ1Ppj5XAj4JTXB hznZqXnh6VzhHoriFg3GD6HbYFws2880GMzXkhDugqontrLAeOG0ruI8D1g+f14YigwZ UEZXq5x4gT9JikRg9s+lxdIWzDjpyEvspuLPt3oHmhW5SX5emxHPKEUQLw2gmjUr/vcv e70rfsRhRL48jsCpm7a8NhGr6nU/sPA9E6paOIrveu4NyZsgSbYyj519117tvA+B1eJY UWOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532XGLDTiTA8m0tcSURRa9XkffOZn9fTEp5+OWhAP7f0Ay7kk22e aWMIpCcxvmbqnEEfeLcqSndTT9s71xzJiP47/Ik= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDTFvMimYs1tvrVipsC1ekgQdIaL3qp2jAk6rlawBwtB4gypSPbWhciHdO0fwVTMzsxSG8v7SjJWyzLY9Hmbw= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:4409:: with SMTP id r9mr47661635ioa.158.1594400904184; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:08:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:08:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Huaimo Chen Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 17:08:27 -0000 I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. It seems more flexible and capable although some editorial/nomenclature improvements in the draft would be good. I will send some more detailed suggestions to the authors. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:38 PM Huaimo Chen wr= ote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Fri Jul 10 10:43:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916133A0802; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ieee.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id De7Pf2iTpHYR; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78AB33A080E; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id h13so4804151otr.0; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tTGnpx+j09IEll+y5BOqPXhfNpxGCVrAUspoowyx5WA=; b=duK/r+c+VRqbeIhOjegFpqFYYvPDKFpsoRZ+9z8W/XfoAmQEeBGtGKkoLN0TMno+pA T16lCpsI2OSA5APar+XCVBnB/083U/cUnKAj6chfIVEhtvWAQJ9mviCCUC0xHNjfFGBz hn4eFCqY2UzE90TkCymZ28dxZFQNsaTM0ULPM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tTGnpx+j09IEll+y5BOqPXhfNpxGCVrAUspoowyx5WA=; b=in+de3D3PbU/dqHRJPWok5U0lpgmaC2j4VhcMn6vVzmHGyDdTsE7drf+8lS649CiNv wOh4tHKGw/5ZXd1kbJdnq0PeBiWeefnAzK1TLLj2E/ARHzaBnrNpZj3WutPmOVnm/gs/ ecKEKVtBmXx56HRVa7RZ+hsVkzQYfk7PkFlVlaJt664MtOMb8gFLsYgZ4flECC6uNVxX CLE16BD8+mqLR+lJbzbuGwhCkklc4WYmjLB/ePHn0zcieVtPkiFYhijXUfDfymMun4c5 NlmiMIN2GEXXAB1epAgV5WJelTyp8dv9E/vn8UGUI8ijqwIHMdZLuZa4ffWghmubJ675 Fn5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324q4Z1RBP0WjV/I9q1RicP6kUQtptjW5YBKjFA8a4gNWRiGmY/ 07YZf9DVlfifqWRKfrOpF1YFs53/i5aWilkIFbE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyEgIAin28XOFP72ZtwsOY2Fqz6PW0gVSNRvm7I+JbGzIPrkOGejChh68ss3BUCI6MMf/1C3hpIP6ld9C0zH68= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2261:: with SMTP id o88mr20921982ota.334.1594402960118; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: LEI LIU Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:42:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Huaimo Chen Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001119b105aa19dee8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 17:43:15 -0000 --0000000000001119b105aa19dee8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of the TTZ draft. The operation on TTZ is simple. Smooth transferring between a zone and a single node will improve customer experience. The work on TTZ should be moved forward. Thanks, Best regards, Lei On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen wrote: > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of > "Topology-Transparent Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve > scalability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the > sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo > node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to > reconstruct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone > smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone > edges' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for > transferring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full > mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable > while > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to > operate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for > IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for > short). > > > > "Area Proxy" > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or > more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > --0000000000001119b105aa19dee8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support the adoption of the TTZ draft.

The opera= tion on TTZ is simple. Smooth transferring between a zone and a single node= will improve customer experience. The work on TTZ should be moved forward.=

Thanks,=C2=A0
Best regards,=C2=A0
=

Lei=C2=A0

<= /span>
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wro= te:

Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would like to request working group adopt= ion of "Topology-Transparent Zone"

(TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/=C2=A0.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This draft comprises the following solution= s for helping to improve scalability:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in OSPF,=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) abstracting a zo= ne to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4) transferring smo= othly between a zone and a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L= 1 area, OSPF backbone or

non-backbone area).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When a network area becomes (too) big, we c= an reduce its size in the sense

of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or

abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a zone is being abstracted (or transf= erred) to a single pseudo node,

the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 After abstracting a few zones to a few pseu= do nodes, if we want to reconstruct

them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone sm= oothly

with no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We had a prototype implementation of abstra= cting a zone to zone edges' full

mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transferri= ng

smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and teste= d.

A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess

without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable whil= e

the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to op= erate

the transferring.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are two other drafts for improving sc= alability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"

(Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflec= tion for short).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01=C2= =A0

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r more

flood reflectors.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We believe that TTZ has some special advant= ages even though

Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like

to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Huaimo

_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr


=
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b=cTujuQr06LnT8vBNrfYwVHLITHsOlz++wlwSveG6BO/yTlBLKzCwO0G8vAvF1PyjJn /CKMR31N9DGYDQE17H/RyBTYwiQnFZfcpZ5JuRzUPxhPQ+N2ffSGmAS2AdC2Ti5HXlCe HvjzYUy1vCbrYc/ixPJcbf/GUA+smC0dgwWnLOaQPeGCd15MHrlIHBL+2dJq2D4oQjND j5gB2Em40qA1v+xX/MHQCZeUg0lJjVYsPEZ5D+g1rO54V1RBjLP06+MkpaHm7bW8RZxL qjb1F6IXsJ5dSWzhc9oHyoidNrCp3J6Df2PaQxmkPwg079jPz+S/3U1KoUS0jNmlADTI v+yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WC9ch7XTub24UDGjGkIcyA6zn1HRLxV4OI4obRSebd+MSkS92 EZc77GHQ6OaqlQpoqK8gm76QEva3ce2olchlGMI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKqqNlO22Or+IKzZvpSFD8Y1NRs/+fjBwF//slhzcKEdQJpdLlm0iwTYGECI95USQxla2Twlo/4sYVibfBWGc= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:2eab:: with SMTP id y11mr48084620uay.22.1594422476088; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:07:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Uma Chunduri Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:07:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Huaimo Chen Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f27ff05aa1e696d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 23:07:59 -0000 --0000000000004f27ff05aa1e696d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant to OSPF (thx for the updated version). Thanks for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF protocol first (RFC 8099). I will send my specific comments/suggestions a bit later. -- Uma C. On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen wrote: > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of > "Topology-Transparent Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve > scalability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the > sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo > node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to > reconstruct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone > smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone > edges' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for > transferring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full > mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable > while > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to > operate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for > IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for > short). > > > > "Area Proxy" > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or > more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > --0000000000004f27ff05aa1e696d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=C2=A0I would support= the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption.=C2=A0


Of course, obvious= ly not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant to OSPF (thx for the upda= ted version).=C2=A0=C2=A0

Thanks for the good work which was started way back o= n TTZs with OSPF protocol first (RFC 8099).


I will send my specific comments/suggesti= ons a bit later.

--

<= p class=3D"gmail-MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1= 1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Uma C.



On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:<= br>

Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would like to request working group adopt= ion of "Topology-Transparent Zone"

(TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/=C2=A0.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This draft comprises the following solution= s for helping to improve scalability:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in OSPF,=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) abstracting a zo= ne to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4) transferring smo= othly between a zone and a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L= 1 area, OSPF backbone or

non-backbone area).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When a network area becomes (too) big, we c= an reduce its size in the sense

of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or

abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a zone is being abstracted (or transf= erred) to a single pseudo node,

the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 After abstracting a few zones to a few pseu= do nodes, if we want to reconstruct

them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone sm= oothly

with no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We had a prototype implementation of abstra= cting a zone to zone edges' full

mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transferri= ng

smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and teste= d.

A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess

without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable whil= e

the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to op= erate

the transferring.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are two other drafts for improving sc= alability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"

(Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflec= tion for short).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01=C2= =A0

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r more

flood reflectors.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We believe that TTZ has some special advant= ages even though

Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like

to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Huaimo

_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
--0000000000004f27ff05aa1e696d-- From nobody Sat Jul 11 04:42:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9446D3A0E00; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 04:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqkX_qKQs-vn; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 04:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6AF3A0DF8; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 04:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0841860471; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 11:42:11 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A26154F6-FFB2-477C-94DD-8AC82E142C21"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 07:42:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Hopps , LEI LIU , Huaimo Chen , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Linda Dunbar References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 11:42:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A26154F6-FFB2-477C-94DD-8AC82E142C21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 10, 2020, at 4:39 PM, Linda Dunbar = wrote: >=20 > I also support the adoption of TTZ draft. >=20 > The Virtual Zone concept would be very useful for the Overlay = networks. The proposed TTZ can group a set of nodes not geographically = together into one virtual area to scale virtual overlay networks with = lots of nodes. Those kind overlay networks are getting more momentum in = SDWAN and CDN environment. I'm not sure I follow this use-case. The intent of TTZ is to treat a = bunch of nodes as a single node (or subset of nodes in early work) to = reduce the link-state DB size and flooding requirements, AFAICT. Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] >=20 > Linda Dunbar >=20 > From: Lsr On Behalf Of LEI LIU > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 12:42 PM > To: Huaimo Chen > Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > I support the adoption of the TTZ draft. >=20 > The operation on TTZ is simple. Smooth transferring between a zone and = a single node will improve customer experience. The work on TTZ should = be moved forward. >=20 > Thanks, > Best regards, >=20 > Lei >=20 > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen = wrote: > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, >=20 >=20 >=20 > I would like to request working group adoption of = "Topology-Transparent Zone" >=20 > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ = . >=20 >=20 >=20 > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to = improve scalability: >=20 > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, >=20 > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, >=20 > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and >=20 > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo = node. >=20 > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone = or >=20 > non-backbone area). >=20 >=20 >=20 > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in = the sense >=20 > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or >=20 > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. >=20 >=20 >=20 > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single = pseudo node, >=20 > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >=20 >=20 >=20 > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to = reconstruct >=20 > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its = zone smoothly >=20 > with no or minimum service interruption. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone = edges' full >=20 > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring >=20 > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested. >=20 > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess >=20 > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable = while >=20 > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to = operate >=20 > the transferring. >=20 >=20 >=20 > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy = for IS-IS" >=20 > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection = for short). >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 >=20 > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Flood Reflection" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >=20 > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more >=20 > flood reflectors. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though >=20 > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like >=20 > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Huaimo >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_A26154F6-FFB2-477C-94DD-8AC82E142C21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8JpZUACgkQLh2DDte4 MCX8jg/+LG6iF+aRa+By2810KJvPzi8DL5qh7LZ3kvLnQO7aXaFOOxTMkblIeKyq /xUqOhuQf5ZRKMKB2e8eMuKzH3jSyRTEOf9OBFXBuV/NubCegbD+7vBCK4HmMNd5 xQmKNWg00UU9MNkxhRfYcUyVk7bBGtj6V/MGTuKrCNKGgnHh4XyO8J802zqPx1T4 obbx9DHZO2MUZrFZd3Qazb6O3yTNAzu0GkL3I6vPEH3CUoo+JXq5NCLr0toohf5e Hu3zEqBozoPbclnorhf+Q38MowHcqUHVgRc/5gBLQQXBf4X0lEYjYQwWBeSviWVG 1yREbzlkJsCYEeegz67qpn1sUZ2WWl+cAFwslL70vi5CU8Xdrb1ZtM+k9an9jaNv 6fNjAXhV+PHBhD9WG5hX/L5xBB0ZExc6g2pvfymbwuP8Cx6HWvXSWPJIQoOmGHUd aU6BETThlhfvsWuQq4bdtwkMCl5esyihMNVOlr7YbSAm0Hd0NXvYnB5HxYgzwV0z Uw5w3JflkF5y2EzaUYS2qqWSnlwNp0vQS8qbhhrMk5uQ7ks56aWRrSsZjyZdxw7E Y6uo2srYJnLxd/J4Notw0pBAlPC8W/Wltp1H11PcrH40KFuRtQwwxQMdXOFxDKP5 BKpm+4Z201p3/wgSxLW8xWKkcJ4GGxUp1N9y4Knao/pwchBHDXU= =NDWl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A26154F6-FFB2-477C-94DD-8AC82E142C21-- From nobody Sat Jul 11 04:44:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B403A0E14; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 04:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqoyfoMaGTaL; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 04:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21ED23A0E10; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 04:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71E9660471; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 11:44:53 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: <900EBBC7-2A1F-4592-BBC8-4B90FB3A1978@chopps.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FDA440FD-4D36-4A95-AD43-FD5502DA27F2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 07:44:55 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Hopps , Huaimo Chen , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Uma Chunduri References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 11:44:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FDA440FD-4D36-4A95-AD43-FD5502DA27F2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 10, 2020, at 7:07 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote: >=20 > I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. >=20 > Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant = to OSPF (thx for the updated version). > Thanks for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF = protocol first (RFC 8099). Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone? I would be very interested in hearing from operators who have experience = with TTZ since RFC8099 has been around for over 3 years now. Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] > I will send my specific comments/suggestions a bit later. > -- > Uma C. >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen = wrote: > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, >=20 >=20 >=20 > I would like to request working group adoption of = "Topology-Transparent Zone" >=20 > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ = . >=20 >=20 >=20 > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to = improve scalability: >=20 > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, >=20 > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, >=20 > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and >=20 > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo = node. >=20 > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone = or >=20 > non-backbone area). >=20 >=20 >=20 > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in = the sense >=20 > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or >=20 > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. >=20 >=20 >=20 > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single = pseudo node, >=20 > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >=20 >=20 >=20 > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to = reconstruct >=20 > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its = zone smoothly >=20 > with no or minimum service interruption. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone = edges' full >=20 > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for = transferring >=20 > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and = tested. >=20 > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess >=20 > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable = while >=20 > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to = operate >=20 > the transferring. >=20 >=20 >=20 > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy = for IS-IS" >=20 > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection = for short). >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 >=20 > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Flood Reflection" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >=20 > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one = or more >=20 > flood reflectors. >=20 >=20 >=20 > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though >=20 > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like >=20 > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. >=20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Huaimo >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_FDA440FD-4D36-4A95-AD43-FD5502DA27F2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8JpjcACgkQLh2DDte4 MCWmLw//ZOnpyKuywbeH/jwZG8OjqW6P7AyoKbVRkFS1S0hRKMZ/AopBb8q5MALf zm9L9Kogr5Nxm4NKRdY7w4fwPxgSm9Puwqy8elFVn8j0hMy2UIhL9nyOT9tr06wx X0ZRYq6K4EIh01Ytx550vKkQtkXNKIeVxN7u8yK/yQbSnC2kN55k2zSqCaRjVSjm flsT65lln6QIO3p5GFQzuoLi6+Xh0rbJg5YEfEBjGQUMKlP+I9Xp2B1ZOp5I4+KN Gb+Oga9KXbKw6gb8YhdiXjimZbAPqwxPrjvA+Kp5cuYdP8b26ji6ilqFxMvjl0uY 1l2BFJ7fxojD/pFhJQymCC8ZZKx142gQZ/8rjjiG3LkWyDOKAwDcXYGcTym7PMgY Krq7/YP+3IDxfAsKSphU3A8A9TY/BTuG1fNzewlG2z2DY14kjO9GBZ9migXgWZUs sEoKM02TLZ9+6pb9OSCBrQspNYtMrQxWhF+pPoDTgdhbK0t3BvokOUfWqQvB7HXE /Z6XbgD4PuJccqHy7eDBoZzA5jNG2OyFsY8iF8hTeZMzFK/LObsDvltL7vYaqR7J kTS69wAqb0xPrZoGY58duxTHc8douqkB0YGSiGnqMJP3t1zMMyAigbUmcmZ6+IsM G803kBi98Jb7ngASCHP/z/jv0dhBvZAUcdkxChDVcttvYidsjV8= =ohLs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FDA440FD-4D36-4A95-AD43-FD5502DA27F2-- From nobody Sat Jul 11 09:08:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B80F3A0E8D; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:07:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, chopps@chopps.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <159448367902.20538.4745348059354269671@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:07:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:07:59 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It might be helpful to define “ignore” as “skip the number of octets indicated by the length field.” An alternate interpretation might skip the number of bytes implied by the type code, if the type is known. Similarly, I take it that a length value beyond the end of the message ends processing of the PDU, but the PDU as a whole MUST NOT be discarded. From nobody Sat Jul 11 09:22:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4AFE3A1039; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xzb3NwApCZKH; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3E853A1036; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id h16so7644781ilj.11; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:22:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tNPxsPSZpGEfAaV1jQv1EGLoGwV8X4xXgTu60c4ZmOs=; b=vIlb5F709Nps7uOjx9VzbsDT0q+Rn8BsYNe4f3KDvHUTFXRtlOw9/uwDI9OaKz3GCI ixcpoYqs6SPr/VCm/obG3bw04cZenyBZmPyBNQ3qFye5SwzmRN2uKgjSloLZFXmQOGUk 8J9mDEbZXzTg2vP9bYkicEvP3JKZNdlIr4DRIZ3V4q5RLrVYmBeDMrZVO8L6rdNOLVXP l5+ecvcmFL3ZaP/So9rOeWkT+9xDvHKdWrIXOBjFZCRJl+5RIweTl4WepBi754RImaaD Q5rJUX53v/hHXJ2uGbeGCLPGkiNOrPPGNSEqRSKulfPGeBykLzmJLPMS1bQ6KH5mIePM cO5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tNPxsPSZpGEfAaV1jQv1EGLoGwV8X4xXgTu60c4ZmOs=; b=CZiwk1SsXS+x8qY6PKhnqzbS2VAPEfbOyUWiTFGjs/9k8UamWJri5KnxNG1nf/PQzQ b27lq5OWjiLnuzyxFQeFYRKO06WT/dnVv3rmloTGHkCTuGkETM+IPSSeSMY1ERE7e5Lg sxGgBJDO76wK0MGMJMUp8Xj1Rq92FrzOplnHa7cmdL1Wc56BKRH7pKRSV9aPAPjBoawt WiziWFZn3gu0yIWeJQPNp4d89Am5s8ArgW8sU53d6Ma7laUJkWwpuYhRNJ/3zTaSqjt+ sILQoZPLl399hzhSIk2LaXpNSENN+/GTsMXTDFa+viLt2cmkb1wQKP2Jf2dM4BNWlFKQ 9ZDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532N06QJxOQ4Rmz5qXVWVNXKbqqDkj5vVFYmeUlebbr4Tde/WE2a PvlQH1ilXJ9Xw4i4iJ8Ub7g3yPCTusG3KC4KYR4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPi62EaJw/Lln91wYX+MDKbVy71NKvSZ6pgtFcJa8dK8zie8EHdt3vn45ZqWLYlSImXdKZnCMaY3vm4F2fYGU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:b684:: with SMTP id m4mr56026074ill.153.1594484557106; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 09:22:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Anil Kumar Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 21:52:25 +0530 Message-ID: To: Uma Chunduri Cc: Huaimo Chen , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0526b05aa2cdd35" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:22:44 -0000 --000000000000a0526b05aa2cdd35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. With Regards Anil S N On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:38 AM Uma Chunduri wrote: > I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. > > > Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant to > OSPF (thx for the updated version). > > Thanks for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF > protocol first (RFC 8099). > > > I will send my specific comments/suggestions a bit later. > > -- > > Uma C. > > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen > wrote: > >> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, >> >> >> >> I would like to request working group adoption of >> "Topology-Transparent Zone" >> >> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . >> >> >> This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve >> scalability: >> >> 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, >> >> 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, >> >> 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and >> >> 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node= . >> >> A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or >> >> non-backbone area). >> >> >> >> When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the >> sense >> >> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or >> >> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. >> >> >> >> While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo >> node, >> >> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >> >> >> >> After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to >> reconstruct >> >> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone >> smoothly >> >> with no or minimum service interruption. >> >> >> >> We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone >> edges' full >> >> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for >> transferring >> >> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested= . >> >> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2= =80=99 full >> mess >> >> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable >> while >> >> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to >> operate >> >> the transferring. >> >> >> >> There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy >> for IS-IS" >> >> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection fo= r >> short). >> >> >> >> "Area Proxy" >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 >> >> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. >> >> >> >> "Flood Reflection" >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >> >> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or >> more >> >> flood reflectors. >> >> >> >> We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though >> >> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like >> >> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Huaimo >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >> > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > --000000000000a0526b05aa2cdd35 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=C2=A0I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG = adoption.=C2=A0

With Regards
Anil S N<= /div>

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:38 AM Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

=C2=A0I would= support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption.=C2=A0


<= p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-= serif">Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant to OSPF (thx for the upda= ted version).=C2=A0=C2=A0

Thanks = for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF protocol fir= st (RFC 8099).


I will send my specific = comments/suggestions a bit later.

--

Uma C= .



On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@future= wei.com> wrote:

Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would like to request working group adopt= ion of "Topology-Transparent Zone"

(TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/=C2=A0.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This draft comprises the following solution= s for helping to improve scalability:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in OSPF,=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) abstracting a zo= ne to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4) transferring smo= othly between a zone and a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L= 1 area, OSPF backbone or

non-backbone area).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When a network area becomes (too) big, we c= an reduce its size in the sense

of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or

abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a zone is being abstracted (or transf= erred) to a single pseudo node,

the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 After abstracting a few zones to a few pseu= do nodes, if we want to reconstruct

them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone sm= oothly

with no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We had a prototype implementation of abstra= cting a zone to zone edges' full

mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transferri= ng

smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and teste= d.

A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess

without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable whil= e

the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to op= erate

the transferring.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are two other drafts for improving sc= alability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"

(Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflec= tion for short).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01=C2= =A0

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r more

flood reflectors.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We believe that TTZ has some special advant= ages even though

Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like

to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Huaimo

_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
--000000000000a0526b05aa2cdd35-- From nobody Sat Jul 11 10:37:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175523A1123; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 10:37:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dg_mvLFhEpa; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 10:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD07A3A116B; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 10:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id d18so9330889ion.0; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 10:37:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KU6FWBMGhcD+SoEJ/xeRTyNuVOBsSbhHedh2RNkbSuU=; b=hm2IRar9iB4SdMEZ4i0iLw1vIh33v740EyJTqrsRJzGYfPqz+/GdIo9h/LDCmnDnD9 rt5rGqFHSFsU0p0WwDx9WDNeoYGpfaPI0yse2S7tf2NSVV25B0xlL57HPe33HZirgPd8 013ZffR3EqUcCNEgpcaApLiDUYR+c+kMOYhh7LFBLmKzsVKN9bT2QKX5z5nDfu2b0o9m 05fsFha7ISKNNrjPyOC619c9w/cza5hPzPd83nAXfTYI6GDvTx5wgVdJx/dLPFNASD9r fwIsCL+FWVjk6r6Ge/QJSStK/l1s0mmXIm5MVSjhmdDNvizfqvtlclb5RWs7JTvIxxl7 nQZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KU6FWBMGhcD+SoEJ/xeRTyNuVOBsSbhHedh2RNkbSuU=; b=mkcA6Tl8koFXBu3pe5JluVsDuzYHlItOo0uPNbuZon2LDX+QnY+qNwXLQsu+b/nE30 zxRzpEFVRfR7EFT9K1ufHa2fYyhkSTym8Ald6sRYOBD19adZdpK/8ncmn4Wn3cTagsxe BlYmjyzqwdQFkp4Unq+ylruKg366CKqNUOPbSS3UveVPXcVWPY7ATY/RRn8RBSx8jgch 8MwNBESAAew3yT9z+IDrXugqKPlbhbsgnajtefaw+ibFluE3Fouz0S+QpDcTgQmMQpRA RtmbP1nizUx9QSiAelEhbHyli63P9Y7o90JY0XhO0RXTMM+RhDSJL40qqKZWMm23EM5n NVyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5317QQXHrfXdZrYepe3XlwJrSdcjHTvy3SwlWNaLAg8xoc/gn+WH u7U6aU18uSrUNV9SveMGD2qFCjbu0o3JplFYhko= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyWKKNg4WlT+wp2zssRsxv3hV8911Qnd+zO7JDiN4AlXImNWiVTb+stIk/L7+1xCYlFkaFXpaz1zYWxRiGWk/g= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8e94:: with SMTP id q142mr41909560iod.208.1594489054963; Sat, 11 Jul 2020 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Liu Vic Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 10:37:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Anil Kumar Cc: Uma Chunduri , "lsr@ietf.org" , Huaimo Chen , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b82e7b05aa2de963" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 17:37:42 -0000 --000000000000b82e7b05aa2de963 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Using TTZ for network scalability will keep good customer experience. TTZ draft should be adopted. I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. Vic Anil Kumar =E4=BA=8E2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8811=E6=97= =A5=E5=91=A8=E5=85=AD =E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=889:22=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. > > With Regards > Anil S N > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:38 AM Uma Chunduri wrote: > >> I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. >> >> >> Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant t= o >> OSPF (thx for the updated version). >> >> Thanks for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF >> protocol first (RFC 8099). >> >> >> I will send my specific comments/suggestions a bit later. >> >> -- >> >> Uma C.. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, >>> >>> >>> >>> I would like to request working group adoption of >>> "Topology-Transparent Zone" >>> >>> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . >>> >>> >>> This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve >>> scalability: >>> >>> 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, >>> >>> 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, >>> >>> 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and >>> >>> 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo >>> node. >>> >>> A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or >>> >>> non-backbone area). >>> >>> >>> >>> When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in >>> the sense >>> >>> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or >>> >>> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. >>> >>> >>> >>> While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single >>> pseudo node, >>> >>> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >>> >>> >>> >>> After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to >>> reconstruct >>> >>> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zon= e >>> smoothly >>> >>> with no or minimum service interruption. >>> >>> >>> >>> We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone >>> edges' full >>> >>> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for >>> transferring >>> >>> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and >>> tested. >>> >>> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2= =80=99 >>> full mess >>> >>> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable >>> while >>> >>> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to >>> operate >>> >>> the transferring. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy >>> for IS-IS" >>> >>> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection >>> for short). >>> >>> >>> >>> "Area Proxy" >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03 >>> >>> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. >>> >>> >>> >>> "Flood Reflection" >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01 >>> >>> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r >>> more >>> >>> flood reflectors. >>> >>> >>> >>> We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though >>> >>> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like >>> >>> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Huaimo >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lsr mailing list >>> Lsr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >> > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > --000000000000b82e7b05aa2de963 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Using TTZ for network= scalability will keep good customer experience.= TTZ draft should be adopted.
I wo= uld support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption.

Vic

Ani= l Kumar <anil.ietf@gmail.com&= gt; =E4=BA=8E2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5=E5=91=A8=E5=85=AD =E4=B8=8A= =E5=8D=889:22=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

=C2=A0I would support the I= S-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption.=C2=A0

With Regards<= /span>
Anil S N

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:38 AM Uma Chunduri = <umac.ietf@gmai= l.com> wrote:

=C2=A0I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution = for WG adoption.=C2=A0


Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant to OSPF (thx for the upda= ted version).=C2=A0=C2=A0

Thanks = for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF protocol fir= st (RFC 8099).


I will send my specific = comments/suggestions a bit later.

--

Uma C= ..



On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futur= ewei.com> wrote:

Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would like to request working group adopt= ion of "Topology-Transparent Zone"

(TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/=C2=A0.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This draft comprises the following solution= s for helping to improve scalability:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) abstracting a zo= ne to a single pseudo node in OSPF,=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) abstracting a zo= ne to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4) transferring smo= othly between a zone and a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L= 1 area, OSPF backbone or

non-backbone area).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When a network area becomes (too) big, we c= an reduce its size in the sense

of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or

abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a zone is being abstracted (or transf= erred) to a single pseudo node,

the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 After abstracting a few zones to a few pseu= do nodes, if we want to reconstruct

them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone sm= oothly

with no or minimum service interruption.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We had a prototype implementation of abstra= cting a zone to zone edges' full

mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transferri= ng

smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and teste= d.

A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=E2=80= =99 full mess

without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable whil= e

the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to op= erate

the transferring.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are two other drafts for improving sc= alability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"

(Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflec= tion for short).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01=C2= =A0

abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one o= r more

flood reflectors.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We believe that TTZ has some special advant= ages even though

Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like

to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Huaimo

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base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: casa-systems.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR06MB5098.namprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f0bd2f25-d0b5-48ed-cda5-08d826707351 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Jul 2020 14:32:48.3789 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 17b16a32-cb34-482f-946d-8a975023450e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: orEyFR5Ijmx8kUAlilOmtfknLL4D2qxQztOpb3dj45P6iVcnZ6Vv5XVFG8qUjmtWW5L7u3uBan7dtsH19TLs9w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR06MB3577 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 14:32:53 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bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xzcg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXw0KTHNyIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTHNyQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xzcg0K From nobody Sun Jul 12 11:43:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DFC3A07F3; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:43:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159457938182.14376.1843043734152097085@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:43:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-yang-augmentation-v1-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 18:43:02 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : OSPF YANG Model Augmentations for Additional Features - Version 1 Authors : Acee Lindem Yingzhen Qu Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-yang-augmentation-v1-02.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2020-07-12 Abstract: This document defines YANG data modules augmenting the IETF OSPF YANG model to provide support for Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF Version 3 as defined in RF 5329, OSPF Two-Part Metric as defined in RFC 8042, OSPF Graceful Link Shutdown as defined in RFC 8379 and OSPF Link-Local Signaling (LLS) Extensions for Local Interface ID Advertisement as defined in RFC 8510. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-yang-augmentation-v1/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-yang-augmentation-v1-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-yang-augmentation-v1-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-yang-augmentation-v1-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 12 11:54:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926F53A07F6; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159458007655.21777.12089658263846995200@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:54:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-08.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 18:54:37 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Data Model for IS-IS Segment Routing Authors : Stephane Litkowski Yinghzen Qu Pushpasis Sarkar Ing-Wher Chen Jeff Tantsura Filename : draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-08.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2020-07-12 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure and manage IS-IS Segment Routing. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-isis-sr-yang-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 12 12:10:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FAB3A07FF; Sun, 12 Jul 2020 12:10:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159458102630.1162.2398862748579451729@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 12:10:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-12.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:10:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Data Model for OSPF SR (Segment Routing) Protocol Authors : Derek Yeung Yingzhen Qu Jeffrey Zhang Ing-Wher Chen Acee Lindem Filename : draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-12.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2020-07-12 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model that can be used to configure and manage OSPF Segment Routing. The model is based on YANG 1.1 as defined in RFC 7950 and conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NDMA) as described in RFC 8342. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ospf-sr-yang-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Mehmet --0000000000006db0e105aa4775de Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.
= 
Mehmet
--0000000000006db0e105aa4775de-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 00:21:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6823A0913; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 00:21:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Murray Kucherawy via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , aretana.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Murray Kucherawy Message-ID: <159462486616.20882.4785353940060585931@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 00:21:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Murray Kucherawy's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:21:07 -0000 Murray Kucherawy has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In the Abstract: * "... in order to insure that interoperability is maximized." -- That should be "ensure". 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. It is very useful for the large network with abstracting a zone to a single= virtual node. The size of the LSDB can be reduced dramatically. best, Reta ________________________________ From: Lsr on behalf of Toy, Mehmet Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:06 AM To: lsr@ietf.org Cc: lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. Mehmet --_000_TY2PR03MB4077434BA213707749C2116EE1600TY2PR03MB4077apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.
It is very useful for the large network with abstracting a zone to a = single virtual node.
The size of the LSDB can be reduced dramatically.

best,
Reta
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@i= etf.org> on behalf of Toy, Mehmet <mehmet.toy=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.i= etf.org>
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:06 AM
To: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Cc: lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 
I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.
Mehmet
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I strongly support the adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. For the large scale network, if we just run the IS-IS in a large area, the = LSDB will be very large. In addition, the convergence time will last for a long time. But TTZ is a g= ood way to reduce the network size and the number of the Link state can be = reduced largely. BR, Rouxin ________________________________ From: Lsr on behalf of reta Yang Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:20 PM To: lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. It is very useful for the large network with abstracting a zone to a single= virtual node. The size of the LSDB can be reduced dramatically. best, Reta ________________________________ From: Lsr on behalf of Toy, Mehmet Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:06 AM To: lsr@ietf.org Cc: lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. Mehmet --_000_HK0PR01MB21157D9151FEF9F56A6C8EC2B9600HK0PR01MB2115apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I strongly support the adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.
For the large scale network, if we just run the IS-IS in a large area, the = LSDB will be very large.
In addition, the convergence time will last for a long time. But TTZ is a g= ood way to reduce the network size and the number of the Link state can be = reduced largely.

BR,
Rouxin
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@i= etf.org> on behalf of reta Yang <reta.yang@outlook.com>
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:20 PM
To: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 
I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.
It is very useful for the large network with abstracting a zone to a = single virtual node.
The size of the LSDB can be reduced dramatically.

best,
Reta
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Toy, Mehmet <mehmet.toy=3D40verizon.com@dmarc= .ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 8:06 AM
To: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Cc: lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 
I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.
Mehmet
--_000_HK0PR01MB21157D9151FEF9F56A6C8EC2B9600HK0PR01MB2115apcp_-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 07:40:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BD63A126B; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:39:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, chopps@chopps.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:39:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:39:55 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm glad to see language clarifying error handling. Thanks for the work on it. Section 3.2. Per “It is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls for the enablement of behaviors that are not backward compatible”, I want to double check that I’m understanding this sentence correctly. RFC5304 provides normative guidance that isn’t backward compatible with ISO10589. RFC6233 provide guidance that isn’t backward compatible with either RFC5304 or ISO10589. Is the initial sentence effectively saying that implementations should support deployments in configurations that are not backward compatible (i.e., those using the newer TLVs)? As these changes are covering security matters, I read “controls” in the cyber mitigation sense -- they prevent an action, not enable one. 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(2603:10b6:a03:1c1::14) by BY5PR11MB4338.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:1c8::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3174.20; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:52:36 +0000 Received: from BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::744b:761f:b385:f1e2]) by BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::744b:761f:b385:f1e2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3174.025; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:52:36 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Roman Danyliw , The IESG CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "chopps@chopps.org" , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWWSOj6v/Lge/VtkCoyCO61b+6fKkFpesw Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:52:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> 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15.20.3174.025; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:03:55 +0000 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , Roman Danyliw , The IESG CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "chopps@chopps.org" , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWWSOgblWvvAOWak2Fzdn4RjAwkakFqPoA///AFoA= Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:03:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [136.56.133.70] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f801c692-38a9-4cd0-0bca-08d827465818 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<4959EDFA5E396149B77F80DA7F8AE233@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB2887.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f801c692-38a9-4cd0-0bca-08d827465818 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Jul 2020 16:03:54.8362 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: i4o+XBEZG8HebZT2oAaCYj/FoJp96rlu4NDLmiEGBXVB1qPc0G8tqv1cVQduarYb X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4292 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.15, xch-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org 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15.20.3174.025; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:23:32 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Roman Danyliw , "The IESG" CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "chopps@chopps.org" , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWWSOj6v/Lge/VtkCoyCO61b+6fKkFpeswgAAGNQCAAAPYcA== Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:23:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2602:306:36ca:6640:5564:b1a9:c304:c47b] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 03ff82c3-28e6-4ab6-37e0-08d8274915c2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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ZDgyNjcwOWQwMSU3QzBmZWU4ZmYyYTNiMjQwMTg5Yzc1M2ExZDU1OTFmZWRjJTdDMSU3QzAlN0M2 MzczMDE2MTI0MTY0NDU1NzYmYW1wO3NkYXRhPVA5STNLU3NKYjg0d0RTczZrYVZySSUyQjViZlBS RjJNTnQxSnlUdkplYTZ3YyUzRCZhbXA7cmVzZXJ2ZWQ9MA0K From nobody Mon Jul 13 13:22:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532693A0900; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:22:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159467172629.2181.7519536583017585260@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:22:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:22:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Model for OSPFv3 Extended LSAs Authors : Acee Lindem Sharmila Palani Yingzhen Qu Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-02.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2020-07-13 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model augmenting the IETF OSPF YANG model to provide support for OSPFv3 Link State Advertisment (LSA) Extensibility as defined in RFC 8362. OSPFv3 Extended LSAs provide extensible TLV-based LSAs for the base LSA types defined in RFC 5340. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 13 13:54:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F3F3A09B1; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:54:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Leif Johansson via Datatracker To: Cc: last-call@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159467367745.10834.16297254494468289081@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: Leif Johansson Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:54:37 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02 X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:54:41 -0000 Reviewer: Leif Johansson Review result: Ready I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. The subject matter is outside my area of expertise but addressing the obvious attack vector related to authenticated purge messages seems like a good catch. The document is well written and clearly describes what registries and documents are updated. From nobody Mon Jul 13 14:10:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DD33A0D82; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:10:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, chopps@chopps.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <159467464683.28759.13036994941928035125@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:10:46 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:10:49 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The shepherd writeup is a bit unclear as to why Proposed Standard is the right document status (vs., e.g., Informational). I guess it's desired to have the Updates: relationship to the indicated documents, which essentially forces it to be standards-track. On the other hand, perhaps the sense that ignoring a TLV that is specifically disallowed (as opposed to "merely" unrecognized) is itself a newly specified requirement, in which case the status as Proposed Standard makes sense for that reason. It might be worth a little more clarity on which (if either) of these scenarios are intended. Section 1 A corollary to ignoring unknown TLVs is having the validation of PDUs be independent from the validation of the TLVs contained in the PDU. nit: this doesn't exactly seem like a "corollary" specifically, but rather a choice that [ISO10589] made (and which keeps some overall sense of consistency between PDU and TLV handling). Section 3.1 [ISO10589] defines the behavior required when a PDU is received containing a TLV which is "not recognised". It states (see Sections 9.3 - 9.13): This is Sections 9.5 (not 9.3) to 9.13 in the copy I have. Section 3.2 Similarly, the extensions defined by [RFC6233] are not compatible with the behavior defined in [RFC5304], therefore can only be safely enabled when all nodes support the extensions. nit: I'd argue that technically the extensions are *defined* by 6232, even though 6233 is what makes their nature (as "allowed in purge") easily discoverable. It is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls for the enablement of behaviors that are not backward compatible. We also specifically want the ability to generate but not process/require at least some of them, right? Is that worth calling out in addition to just "controls for the enablement"? Section 3.3 a given sub-TLV is allowed. Section 2 of [RFC5305] is updated by the following sentence: "As with TLVs, it is required that sub-TLVs which are disallowed MUST be ignored on receipt.". Do we want to say where this logical insertion occurs? Section 3.4 The correct setting for "LSP" is "n". This document updates [RFC6232] by correcting that error. It's slightly interesting that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding Errata Report (but may not be worth doing anything about given that this update is about to be approved). Section 8.1 It's not entirely clear that RFC 7356 is referenced in a normative manner. 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2020 23:05:35.1628 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: wMByy2MI9EltPJidjAxUb9k1I6MjDjliZTscBpOxBmG9XeY3yL9bkLm117NXfSGhg6FacH3vaPuGXla+2tAv6A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4134 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 23:05:41 -0000 --_000_BY5PR11MB4337C2A9F5A5BEC0476C76AAC1600BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Jul 2020 16:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CEC33A0743; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 06DNNc3E031153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 19:23:40 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:23:37 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , Christian Hopps , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" Message-ID: <20200713232337.GY16335@kduck.mit.edu> References: <159467464683.28759.13036994941928035125@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 23:23:49 -0000 Hi Les, On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:05:35PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Ben - > > > > Thanx for your review. My pleasure; this is a nice document. (A shame it's needed, of course, but that's neither here nor there.) > Responses inline. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > > > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 2:11 PM > > > To: The IESG > > > Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org; > > > Christian Hopps ; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; > > > chopps@chopps.org > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with > > > COMMENT) > > > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: Yes > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > The shepherd writeup is a bit unclear as to why Proposed Standard is the > > > right document status (vs., e.g., Informational). I guess it's desired > > > to have the Updates: relationship to the indicated documents, which > > > essentially forces it to be standards-track. On the other hand, perhaps > > > the sense that ignoring a TLV that is specifically disallowed (as > > > opposed to "merely" unrecognized) is itself a newly specified > > > requirement, in which case the status as Proposed Standard makes sense > > > for that reason. It might be worth a little more clarity on which (if > > > either) of these scenarios are intended. > > > > > [Les:] What prompted the writing of this document was a real world interoperability scenario wherein one implementation generated a malformed TLV and a receiving implementation rejected the entire PDU because of it. This resulted in persistent LSPDB inconsistency in the network for a prolonged period with a significant impact on the proper functioning of the network. This failure was considered significant enough that Standards Track seemed appropriate. > > > > As the document developed, the authors were encouraged to address some other issues, one of which was clarifying disallowed TLV handling as well. > > > > I can understand why Informational track may seem appropriate to you. In early discussions with Alvaro I had suggested that there was no need to write the document - that existing specifications were sufficiently clear. But the fact that - despite existing standards - such an interoperability issue did occur was compelling. The WG also embraced this as useful. Thanks for the extra explanation. I think PS makes sense, and the only text change I might (emphasis: *might*) consider is to emphasize that the "occurrence of non-conformant behavior seen in real world deployments" is decidedly not hypothetical. But I could understand if the current text is seen to be saying that already, too. > > > > Section 1 > > > > > > A corollary to ignoring unknown TLVs is having the validation of PDUs > > > be independent from the validation of the TLVs contained in the PDU. > > > > > > nit: this doesn't exactly seem like a "corollary" specifically, but > > > rather a choice that [ISO10589] made (and which keeps some overall sense > > > of consistency between PDU and TLV handling). > > > > > [Les:] Rejecting a PDU because of some issue with a single TLV would mean that the full set of updates contained in that LSP would not be propagated. This has a significant impact on the correct operation of the protocol. So I think this really isn’t an option. I agree that doing anything else would have been a bad idea! I was just suggesting that a different word might be preferred (but am not trying to press the issue). > > > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > > > [ISO10589] defines the behavior required when a PDU is received > > > containing a TLV which is "not recognised". It states (see Sections > > > 9.3 - 9.13): > > > > > > This is Sections 9.5 (not 9.3) to 9.13 in the copy I have. > > > > > [Les:] Well spotted. I see you have put your newly acquired copy of ISO 10589 to good use. Bravo!! 😊 Indeed; it was quite helpful to be able to follow along. > > > > Section 3.2 > > > > > > Similarly, the extensions defined by [RFC6233] are not compatible > > > with the behavior defined in [RFC5304], therefore can only be safely > > > enabled when all nodes support the extensions. > > > > > > nit: I'd argue that technically the extensions are *defined* by 6232, even > > > though 6233 is what makes their nature (as "allowed in purge") easily > > > discoverable. > > > > > [Les:] Fair enough. I will change this to RFC6232 - which is one of documents updated by this draft. > > > > > It is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls for the > > > enablement of behaviors that are not backward compatible. > > > > > > We also specifically want the ability to generate but not > > > process/require at least some of them, right? Is that worth calling out > > > in addition to just "controls for the enablement"? > > > > [Les:] This sentence is serving as a guideline for new behaviors that have backwards compatibility issues. New information which could be safely sent in the presence of legacy routers does not fall into this category. That makes sense, though now I wonder if I was misreading the quoted snippet. I assumed it was meant to refer to how 5304 is not compatible to ISO10589, and 6233 is not compatible to 5304, and giving specific guidance for implementing those two RFCs. But it also makes sense if it's a forward-looking thing for any future changes that are backwards-incompatible. Perhaps a similarly generic: % When new protocol behaviors are specified that are not backwards % compatible, it is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls for % their enablement to allow for incremental implementation deployment and a % smooth transition. Anyways, up to you. > > > > > > > Section 3.3 > > > > > > a given sub-TLV is allowed. Section 2 of [RFC5305] is updated by the > > > following sentence: > > > > > > "As with TLVs, it is required that sub-TLVs which > > > are disallowed MUST be ignored on receipt.". > > > > > > Do we want to say where this logical insertion occurs? > > > > > [Les:] As this is not modifying existing text in any way, I am not sure that it is necessary to do so. > > I can envision adding this to the end of the first paragraph or creating a new paragraph. > > > > Unless we are actually going to create a BIS draft, I am not sure that it matters. > > ?? It probably doesn't matter. I'm just remembering that something similar got discussed in the past (IIRC, for an NFSv4 document). > > > > Section 3.4 > > > > > > The correct setting for "LSP" is "n". This document updates > > > [RFC6232] by correcting that error. > > > > > > It's slightly interesting that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding > > > Errata Report (but may not be worth doing anything about given that this > > > update is about to be approved). > > > > [Les:] The error was found during the writing of this draft. Ah, I see :) > > > > > > > Section 8.1 > > > > > > It's not entirely clear that RFC 7356 is referenced in a normative > > > manner. > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] I will move it to Informational. Thanks for the updates, Ben From nobody Mon Jul 13 20:40:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1ED3A091D; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HTML_ATTACH=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=G/Rs9lLw; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=O8kUcaNr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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(2603:10b6:a03:1c1::14) by BYAPR11MB3158.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:1c::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3174.23; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:39:56 +0000 Received: from BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::744b:761f:b385:f1e2]) by BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::744b:761f:b385:f1e2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3174.026; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:39:56 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: Benjamin Kaduk CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , Christian Hopps , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWWVofPxbDSwk0B0+xDUxujILXsqkGF7LQgAAO3oCAAEYIgA== Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:39:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <159467464683.28759.13036994941928035125@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200713232337.GY16335@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: 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03:39:56.1034 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 7tcwc1KCSNid946Ez/z8ezzYvuLwmjlWDVOabflyHldr0zIhHtDzz9v+GIwdm/UkxA0wvhzYo/C170CWLQnFtA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3158 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:40:06 -0000 --_002_BY5PR11MB4337740250F371019E62F0D2C1610BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Jul 2020 04:09:01 +0000 From: Huaimo Chen To: "lsr@ietf.org" CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWRejsDz5QFhQU9kCBa5hsczcb0qkBLZGAgAL5PgCAAeagYIAAhp9g Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:09:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [73.114.233.24] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cdb0623b-eae6-4da7-b65b-08d827aba3dc x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR13MB3423: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4125; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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Jul 2020 04:09:01.3147 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: P0Oel3Ju0v0CmsfkpHQX2CLrBAsSm8Sk/PXbpeJ5RwFgXlpRqZ0zWJkazvtvO0lkwmNHkuXOXrPS5o2L7T05oA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB3423 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:09:09 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB3117E81B8CA6A298742C01D1F2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of IS-IS TTZ draft. 1). It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. IS-IS TTZ ab= stracts a zone to a single node. This abstraction is supported by the exten= sions to IS-IS, and some of these extensions are not defined in Area Proxy.= For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the zone are not defined= in Area Proxy. 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target block= or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems more flex= ible and convenient to users. 3). IS-IS TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single vi= rtual node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single vir= tual node, and the virtual node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Th= is should improve customer experience since converting any block of an area= to a single node is smooth with minimum or no service interruption. 4). Using IS-IS TTZ for network scalability may reduce the users' workload = or make their work easier. They may put less efforts on planning a zone to = be abstracted to a node. After the zone is abstracted to a node, the node c= an be rolled back to the zone smoothly if they want to redefine the zone. BTW, RFC 8099 (OSPF TTZ) is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its e= dges full mesh. IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding to improvi= ng network scalability since IS-IS TTZ focuses on abstracting a zone to a s= ingle node. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Kiran Makhijani Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 3:36 PM To: Yanhe Fan ; Donald Eastlake ; = Huaimo Chen Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ I support IS-IS TTZ adoption for its value in reducing LSDB through abstrac= tion. -Kiran -----Original Message----- From: Lsr On Behalf Of Yanhe Fan Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 7:33 AM To: Donald Eastlake ; Huaimo Chen Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ I support adaption of this IS-IS TTZ draft. It is a useful work to address = network scalability. Thanks, Yanhe -----Original Message----- From: Lsr On Behalf Of Donald Eastlake Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:08 PM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. It seems more flexible and capable although some editorial/nomenclature imp= rovements in the draft would be good. I will send some more detailed sugges= tions to the authors. Thanks, Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:38 PM Huaimo Chen wr= ote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhtt= ps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-chen-isis-ttz%2F&data=3D0= 2%7C01%7Chuaimo.chen%40futurewei.com%7Ce6b542df05de428ba29a08d82764136c%7C0= fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302658065143399&sdata=3DA4= bYj%2B6ViMLIBApX1qQj93306nRIyL4aKs5QR0t%2B%2FJg%3D&reserved=3D0 . > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone > or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in > the sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single > pseudo node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to > reconstruct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its > zone smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone > edges' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for > transferring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92 > full mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable > while > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to > operate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool > s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03&data=3D02%7C01%7 > Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C72917e53d6d94074876208d826709d01%7C0fee8ff2a > 3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637301612416445576&sdata=3DE95AXx% > 2Bq4Xul3auIUt%2FUI203nvzgDODJDOs8l1Dlk9o%3D&reserved=3D0 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool > s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01&data=3D > 02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C72917e53d6d94074876208d826709d01%7C > 0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637301612416445576&sdat > a=3DiNunk3YCV%2FiXEEYNYxozwgRlavMPB%2B%2FF1k6K6CCcWkA%3D&reserved=3D0 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one > or more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flsr&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40future > wei.com%7C72917e53d6d94074876208d826709d01%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5 > 591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637301612416445576&sdata=3DP9I3KSsJb84wDSs6kaVrI%2 > B5bfPRF2MNt1JyTvJea6wc%3D&reserved=3D0 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flsr&data=3D02%7C01%7Chuaimo.chen%40futurew= ei.com%7Ce6b542df05de428ba29a08d82764136c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637302658065143399&sdata=3DKwLx8g2O6zpPJPCqDRytf5XfZVoBu%2F= ZSMPP7Tw9kkLw%3D&reserved=3D0 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flsr&data=3D02%7C01%7Chuaimo.chen%40futurew= ei.com%7Ce6b542df05de428ba29a08d82764136c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637302658065143399&sdata=3DKwLx8g2O6zpPJPCqDRytf5XfZVoBu%2F= ZSMPP7Tw9kkLw%3D&reserved=3D0 --_000_MN2PR13MB3117E81B8CA6A298742C01D1F2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support the adoption of IS-IS TTZ draft. 
1).  It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. IS-IS T= TZ abstracts a zone to a single node. This abstraction is supported by the = extensions to IS-IS, and some of these extensions are not defined in Area P= roxy. For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the zone are not defined in Area Proxy.
2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target = block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems more= flexible and convenient to users.
3). IS-IS TTZ provides smooth transferring between a zone and its single vi= rtual node. That is that a zone can be smoothly transferred to a single vir= tual node, and the virtual node can be smoothly rolled back to the zone. Th= is should improve customer experience since converting any block of an area to a single node is smooth with mini= mum or no service interruption. 
4). Using IS-IS TTZ for network scalability may reduce the users' workload = or make their work easier. They may put less efforts on planning a zone to = be abstracted to a node. After the zone is abstracted to a node, the node c= an be rolled back to the zone smoothly if they want to redefine the zone. 

BTW, RFC 8099 (OSPF TTZ) is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF ar= ea to its edges full mesh. IS-IS TTZ is much better than = RFC 8099 regarding to improving network scalability since IS-IS TTZ focuses= on abstracting a zone to a single node.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Kiran Makhijani <k= iranm@futurewei.com>
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 3:36 PM
To: Yanhe Fan <yfan@casa-systems.com>; Donald Eastlake <d3e= 3e3@gmail.com>; Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 
I support IS-IS TTZ adoption for its value in redu= cing LSDB through abstraction.
-Kiran

-----Original Message-----
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Yanhe Fan
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 7:33 AM
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>; Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@f= uturewei.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

I support adaption of this IS-IS TTZ draft. It is a useful work to address = network scalability.

Thanks,
Yanhe

-----Original Message-----
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Donald Eastlake
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:08 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

I support adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.

It seems more flexible and capable although some editorial/nomenclature imp= rovements in the draft would be good. I will send some more detailed sugges= tions to the authors.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA  d3e3e3@gmail.com
On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:38 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com&= gt; wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,
>
>
>
>     I would like to request working group adoption= of "Topology-Transparent Zone"
>
> (TTZ for short) https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-chen-isis-ttz%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Chuaim= o.chen%40futurewei.com%7Ce6b542df05de428ba29a08d82764136c%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401= 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302658065143399&amp;sdata=3DA4bYj%2B6ViM= LIBApX1qQj93306nRIyL4aKs5QR0t%2B%2FJg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 .
>
>
>     This draft comprises the following solutions f= or helping to improve scalability:
>
>         1) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,
>
>         2) abstracting a zone = to a single pseudo node in OSPF,
>
>         3) abstracting a zone = to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and
>
>         4) transferring smooth= ly between a zone and a single pseudo node.
>
>     A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 a= rea, OSPF backbone
> or
>
> non-backbone area).
>
>
>
>     When a network area becomes (too) big, we can = reduce its size in
> the sense
>
> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or=
>
> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.
>
>
>
>     While a zone is being abstracted (or transferr= ed) to a single
> pseudo node,
>
> the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. >
>
>
>     After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo = nodes, if we want to
> reconstruct
>
> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its > zone smoothly
>
> with no or minimum service interruption.
>
>
>
>     We had a prototype implementation of abstracti= ng a zone to zone
> edges' full
>
> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for
> transferring
>
> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and test= ed.
>
> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges=92=
> full mess
>
> without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable=
> while
>
> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to <= br> > operate
>
> the transferring.
>
>
>
>     There are two other drafts for improving scala= bility: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"
>
> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood R= eflection for short).
>
>
>
>     "Area Proxy"
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool
> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03&amp;data=3D02%= 7C01%7
> Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C72917e53d6d94074876208d826709d01%7C0fee8ff2a=
> 3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637301612416445576&amp;sdata=3DE= 95AXx%
> 2Bq4Xul3auIUt%2FUI203nvzgDODJDOs8l1Dlk9o%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node.
>
>
>
>     "Flood Reflection"
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool
> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01&amp;d= ata=3D
> 02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C72917e53d6d94074876208d826709d01%7C=
> 0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637301612416445576&amp;= sdat
> a=3DiNunk3YCV%2FiXEEYNYxozwgRlavMPB%2B%2FF1k6K6CCcWkA%3D&amp;reser= ved=3D0
>
> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one =
> or more
>
> flood reflectors.
>
>
>
>     We believe that TTZ has some special advantage= s even though
>
> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like
>
> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Huaimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lsr mailing list
> Lsr@ietf.org
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= .
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flsr&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40= future
> wei.com%7C72917e53d6d94074876208d826709d01%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5=
> 591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637301612416445576&amp;sdata=3DP9I3KSsJb84wDSs6k= aVrI%2
> B5bfPRF2MNt1JyTvJea6wc%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

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--_000_MN2PR13MB3117E81B8CA6A298742C01D1F2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 21:14:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87453A0CFD; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:14:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NDWRby5BEI8c; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A0DD3A0D12; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 06E4EEok016255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:14:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:14:14 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , Christian Hopps , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" Message-ID: <20200714041414.GF16335@kduck.mit.edu> References: <159467464683.28759.13036994941928035125@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200713232337.GY16335@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:14:28 -0000 Hi Les, Looks good, thanks for making these tweaks. (I was about to write "hopefully final" but I see that half the IESG still has to weigh in ... so I can't really expect this to be the last word quite yet.) -Ben On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 03:39:55AM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > Ben - > > I have prepared V3 of the draft to address your comments. > As the window for draft submissions is temporarily closed, I have attached the diffs for your review. > > I will post the updated version once the window for submissions reopens. > > A few more remarks inline. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Benjamin Kaduk > > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 4:24 PM > > To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) > > Cc: The IESG ; draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org; lsr- > > chairs@ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org; Christian Hopps ; > > aretana.ietf@gmail.com > > Subject: Re: Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with > > COMMENT) > > > > Hi Les, > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:05:35PM +0000, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote: > > > Ben - > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanx for your review. > > > > My pleasure; this is a nice document. (A shame it's needed, of course, but > > that's neither here nor there.) > > > > > Responses inline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 2:11 PM > > > > > > > To: The IESG > > > > > > > Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org; lsr-chairs@ietf.org; lsr@ietf.org; > > > > > > > Christian Hopps ; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; > > > > > > > chopps@chopps.org > > > > > > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with > > > > > > > COMMENT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > > > > > draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > > > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > > > > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss- > > criteria.html > > > > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > COMMENT: > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The shepherd writeup is a bit unclear as to why Proposed Standard is the > > > > > > > right document status (vs., e.g., Informational). I guess it's desired > > > > > > > to have the Updates: relationship to the indicated documents, which > > > > > > > essentially forces it to be standards-track. On the other hand, perhaps > > > > > > > the sense that ignoring a TLV that is specifically disallowed (as > > > > > > > opposed to "merely" unrecognized) is itself a newly specified > > > > > > > requirement, in which case the status as Proposed Standard makes sense > > > > > > > for that reason. It might be worth a little more clarity on which (if > > > > > > > either) of these scenarios are intended. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] What prompted the writing of this document was a real world > > interoperability scenario wherein one implementation generated a > > malformed TLV and a receiving implementation rejected the entire PDU > > because of it. This resulted in persistent LSPDB inconsistency in the network > > for a prolonged period with a significant impact on the proper functioning of > > the network. This failure was considered significant enough that Standards > > Track seemed appropriate. > > > > > > > > > > > > As the document developed, the authors were encouraged to address > > some other issues, one of which was clarifying disallowed TLV handling as > > well. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand why Informational track may seem appropriate to you. In > > early discussions with Alvaro I had suggested that there was no need to write > > the document - that existing specifications were sufficiently clear. But the > > fact that - despite existing standards - such an interoperability issue did occur > > was compelling. The WG also embraced this as useful. > > > > Thanks for the extra explanation. I think PS makes sense, and the only > > text change I might (emphasis: *might*) consider is to emphasize that the > > "occurrence of non-conformant behavior seen in real world deployments" is > > decidedly not hypothetical. But I could understand if the current text is > > seen to be saying that already, too. > > > [Les:] There is mention in the Abstract that " deployment experience has > shown..." > > > > > > > > > > > Section 1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A corollary to ignoring unknown TLVs is having the validation of PDUs > > > > > > > be independent from the validation of the TLVs contained in the PDU. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nit: this doesn't exactly seem like a "corollary" specifically, but > > > > > > > rather a choice that [ISO10589] made (and which keeps some overall > > sense > > > > > > > of consistency between PDU and TLV handling). > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] Rejecting a PDU because of some issue with a single TLV would mean > > that the full set of updates contained in that LSP would not be propagated. > > This has a significant impact on the correct operation of the protocol. So I > > think this really isn’t an option. > > > > I agree that doing anything else would have been a bad idea! I was just > > suggesting that a different word might be preferred (but am not trying to > > press the issue). > > [Les:] I have reworded this to indicate this is more than just a "corollary". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ISO10589] defines the behavior required when a PDU is received > > > > > > > containing a TLV which is "not recognised". It states (see Sections > > > > > > > 9.3 - 9.13): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is Sections 9.5 (not 9.3) to 9.13 in the copy I have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] Well spotted. I see you have put your newly acquired copy of ISO > > 10589 to good use. Bravo!! 😊 > > > > Indeed; it was quite helpful to be able to follow along. > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 3.2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, the extensions defined by [RFC6233] are not compatible > > > > > > > with the behavior defined in [RFC5304], therefore can only be safely > > > > > > > enabled when all nodes support the extensions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nit: I'd argue that technically the extensions are *defined* by 6232, even > > > > > > > though 6233 is what makes their nature (as "allowed in purge") easily > > > > > > > discoverable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] Fair enough. I will change this to RFC6232 - which is one of documents > > updated by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls for the > > > > > > > enablement of behaviors that are not backward compatible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We also specifically want the ability to generate but not > > > > > > > process/require at least some of them, right? Is that worth calling out > > > > > > > in addition to just "controls for the enablement"? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] This sentence is serving as a guideline for new behaviors that have > > backwards compatibility issues. New information which could be safely sent > > in the presence of legacy routers does not fall into this category. > > > > That makes sense, though now I wonder if I was misreading the quoted > > snippet. I assumed it was meant to refer to how 5304 is not compatible to > > ISO10589, and 6233 is not compatible to 5304, and giving specific guidance > > for implementing those two RFCs. But it also makes sense if it's a > > forward-looking thing for any future changes that are > > backwards-incompatible. Perhaps a similarly generic: > > > > % When new protocol behaviors are specified that are not backwards > > % compatible, it is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls > > for > > % their enablement to allow for incremental implementation deployment > > and a > > % smooth transition. > > > [Les:] I have used a modified version of your text. Thanx for the suggestion - and let me know if the revised wording is to your liking. > > Les > > > > Anyways, up to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 3.3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a given sub-TLV is allowed. Section 2 of [RFC5305] is updated by the > > > > > > > following sentence: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "As with TLVs, it is required that sub-TLVs which > > > > > > > are disallowed MUST be ignored on receipt.". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we want to say where this logical insertion occurs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] As this is not modifying existing text in any way, I am not sure that it > > is necessary to do so. > > > > > > I can envision adding this to the end of the first paragraph or creating a new > > paragraph. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless we are actually going to create a BIS draft, I am not sure that it > > matters. > > > > > > ?? > > > > It probably doesn't matter. I'm just remembering that something similar > > got discussed in the past (IIRC, for an NFSv4 document). > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 3.4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The correct setting for "LSP" is "n". This document updates > > > > > > > [RFC6232] by correcting that error. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's slightly interesting that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding > > > > > > > Errata Report (but may not be worth doing anything about given that this > > > > > > > update is about to be approved). > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] The error was found during the writing of this draft. > > > > Ah, I see :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 8.1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not entirely clear that RFC 7356 is referenced in a normative > > > > > > > manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Les:] I will move it to Informational. > > > > Thanks for the updates, > > > > Ben > < draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02.txt draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt > > LSR Working Group L. Ginsberg LSR Working Group L. Ginsberg > Internet-Draft P. Wells Internet-Draft P. Wells > Updates: 5305 6232 (if approved) Cisco Systems Updates: 5305 6232 (if approved) Cisco Systems > Intended status: Standards Track T. Li Intended status: Standards Track T. Li > Expires: December 24, 2020 Arista Networks Expires: January 14, 2021 Arista Networks > T. Przygienda T. Przygienda > S. Hegde S. Hegde > Juniper Networks, Inc. Juniper Networks, Inc. > June 22, 2020 July 13, 2020 > Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS > draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02 draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 > Abstract Abstract > Key to the extensibility of the Intermediate System to Key to the extensibility of the Intermediate System to > Intermediate Intermediate > System (IS-IS) protocol has been the handling of System (IS-IS) protocol has been the handling of > unsupported and/or unsupported and/or > invalid Type/Length/Value (TLV) tuples. Although there invalid Type/Length/Value (TLV) tuples. Although there > are explicit are explicit > statements in existing specifications, deployment statements in existing specifications, deployment > experience has experience has > shown that there are inconsistencies in the behavior shown that there are inconsistencies in the behavior > when a TLV which when a TLV which > is disallowed in a particular Protocol Data Unit (PDU) is disallowed in a particular Protocol Data Unit (PDU) > is received. is received. > This document discusses such cases and makes the This document discusses such cases and makes the > correct behavior correct behavior > explicit in order to insure that interoperability is explicit in order to ensure that interoperability is > maximized. maximized. > This document updates RFC5305 and RFC6232. This document updates RFC5305 and RFC6232. > Requirements Language Requirements Language > The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", > "SHALL NOT", "SHALL NOT", > "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT > RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and > "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as > described in BCP described in BCP > 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they > appear in all appear in all > capitals, as shown here. capitals, as shown here. > skipping to change at page 2, line 7 P: skipping to change at page 2, line 7 P: > Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet > Engineering Engineering > Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also > distribute distribute > working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of > current Internet- current Internet- > Drafts is at Drafts is at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. > Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a > maximum of six months maximum of six months > and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other > documents at any documents at any > time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as > reference reference > material or to cite them other than as "work in material or to cite them other than as "work in > progress." progress." > This Internet-Draft will expire on December 24, 2020. This Internet-Draft will expire on January 14, 2021. > Copyright Notice Copyright Notice > Copyright (c) 2020 IETF Trust and the persons Copyright (c) 2020 IETF Trust and the persons > identified as the identified as the > document authors. All rights reserved. document authors. All rights reserved. > This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF > Trust's Legal Trust's Legal > Provisions Relating to IETF Documents Provisions Relating to IETF Documents > (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on > the date of the date of > publication of this document. Please review these publication of this document. Please review these > documents documents > skipping to change at page 2, line 35 P: skipping to change at page 2, line 35 P: > 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 2 . . . . . 2 > 2. TLV Codepoints Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2. TLV Codepoints Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 3 . . . . . 3 > 3. TLV Acceptance in PDUs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3. TLV Acceptance in PDUs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 4 . . . . . 4 > 3.1. Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received PDUs 3.1. Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received PDUs > other than other than > LSP Purges . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LSP Purges . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . 4 . 4 > 3.2. Special Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received 3.2. Special Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received > LSP LSP > Purges . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Purges . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . 4 . 4 > 3.3. Applicability to sub-TLVs . . . . . . . . . . . . 3.3. Applicability to sub-TLVs . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . 5 . . . . 5 > 3.4. Correction to POI TLV Registry Entry . . . . . . 3.4. Correction to POI TLV Registry Entry . . . . . . > . . . . 5 . . . . 5 > 4. TLV Validation and LSP Acceptance . . . . . . . . . 4. TLV Validation and LSP Acceptance . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 5 . . . . . 6 > 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 6 . . . . . 6 > 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 6 . . . . . 6 > 7. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 7 . . . . . 7 > 8. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 7 . . . . . 7 > 8.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . 7 . . . . 7 > 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . 8 . . . . 8 > Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8 > 1. Introduction 1. Introduction > The Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) The Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) > protocol protocol > [ISO10589] utilizes Type/Length/Value (TLV) encoding [ISO10589] utilizes Type/Length/Value (TLV) encoding > for all content for all content > in the body of Protocol Data Units (PDUs). New in the body of Protocol Data Units (PDUs). New > extensions to the extensions to the > protocol are supported by defining new TLVs. In order protocol are supported by defining new TLVs. In order > to allow to allow > protocol extensions to be deployed in a backwards protocol extensions to be deployed in a backwards > compatible way an compatible way an > implementation is required to ignore TLVs that it does implementation is required to ignore TLVs that it does > not not > understand. This behavior is also applied to sub-TLVs understand. This behavior is also applied to sub-TLVs > [RFC5305], [RFC5305], > which are contained within TLVs. which are contained within TLVs. > A corollary to ignoring unknown TLVs is having the Also essential to the correct operation of the > validation of PDUs protocol is having the > be independent from the validation of the TLVs validation of PDUs be independent from the validation > contained in the PDU. of the TLVs > PDUs which are valid must be accepted [ISO10589] even contained in the PDU. PDUs which are valid must be > if an accepted > individual TLV contained within that PDU is invalid in [ISO10589] even if an individual TLV contained within > some way that PDU is not > (e.g., incorrect syntax, data value out of range, understood or is invalid in some way (e.g., incorrect > etc.). syntax, data > value out of range, etc.). > The set of TLVs (and sub-TLVs) which are allowed in The set of TLVs (and sub-TLVs) which are allowed in > each PDU type is each PDU type is > documented in the TLV Codepoints Registry established documented in the TLV Codepoints Registry established > by [RFC3563] by [RFC3563] > and updated by [RFC6233] and [RFC7356]. and updated by [RFC6233] and [RFC7356]. > This document is intended to clarify some aspects of This document is intended to clarify some aspects of > existing existing > specifications and thereby reduce the occurrence of specifications and thereby reduce the occurrence of > non-conformant non-conformant > behavior seen in real world deployments. Although behavior seen in real world deployments. Although > behaviors behaviors > specified in existing protocol specifications are not specified in existing protocol specifications are not > changed, the changed, the > clarifications contained in this document serve as clarifications contained in this document serve as > updates to RFC updates to RFC > skipping to change at page 4, line 15 P: skipping to change at page 4, line 15 P: > 3. TLV Acceptance in PDUs 3. TLV Acceptance in PDUs > This section describes the correct behavior when a PDU This section describes the correct behavior when a PDU > is received is received > which contains a TLV which is specified as disallowed which contains a TLV which is specified as disallowed > in the TLV in the TLV > Codepoints Registry. Codepoints Registry. > 3.1. Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received PDUs 3.1. Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received PDUs > other than LSP Purges other than LSP Purges > [ISO10589] defines the behavior required when a PDU is [ISO10589] defines the behavior required when a PDU is > received received > containing a TLV which is "not recognised". It states containing a TLV which is "not recognised". It states > (see Sections (see Sections > 9.3 - 9.13): 9.5 - 9.13): > "Any codes in a received PDU that are not "Any codes in a received PDU that are not > recognised shall be ignored." recognised shall be ignored." > This is the model to be followed when a TLV is This is the model to be followed when a TLV is > received which is received which is > disallowed. Therefore TLVs in a PDU (other than LSP disallowed. Therefore TLVs in a PDU (other than LSP > purges) which purges) which > are disallowed MUST be ignored and MUST NOT cause the are disallowed MUST be ignored and MUST NOT cause the > PDU itself to PDU itself to > be rejected by the receiving IS. be rejected by the receiving IS. > 3.2. Special Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received 3.2. Special Handling of Disallowed TLVs in Received > LSP Purges LSP Purges > skipping to change at page 4, line 50 P: skipping to change at page 4, line 50 P: > other than the authentication TLV". other than the authentication TLV". > This behavior was extended by [RFC6232] which This behavior was extended by [RFC6232] which > introduced the Purge introduced the Purge > Originator Identification (POI) TLV and [RFC6233] Originator Identification (POI) TLV and [RFC6233] > which added the which added the > "Purge" column to the TLV Codepoints registry to "Purge" column to the TLV Codepoints registry to > identify all the identify all the > TLVs which are allowed in purges. TLVs which are allowed in purges. > The behavior specified in [RFC5304] is not backwards The behavior specified in [RFC5304] is not backwards > compatible with compatible with > the behavior defined by [ISO10589] and therefore can the behavior defined by [ISO10589] and therefore can > only be safely only be safely > enabled when all nodes support cryptographic enabled when all nodes support cryptographic > authentication. authentication. > Similarly, the extensions defined by [RFC6233] are not Similarly, the extensions defined by [RFC6232] are not > compatible compatible > with the behavior defined in [RFC5304], therefore can with the behavior defined in [RFC5304], therefore can > only be safely only be safely > enabled when all nodes support the extensions. enabled when all nodes support the extensions. > It is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide When new protocol behaviors are specified that are not > controls for the backwards > enablement of behaviors that are not backward compatible, it is RECOMMENDED that implementations > compatible. provide controls > for their enablement. This serves to prevent > interoperability issues > and allow for non-disruptive introduction of the new > functionality > into an existing network.. > 3.3. Applicability to sub-TLVs 3.3. Applicability to sub-TLVs > [RFC5305] introduced sub-TLVs, which are TLV tuples [RFC5305] introduced sub-TLVs, which are TLV tuples > advertised within advertised within > the body of a parent TLV. Registries associated with the body of a parent TLV. Registries associated with > sub-TLVs are sub-TLVs are > associated with the TLV Codepoints Registry and associated with the TLV Codepoints Registry and > specify in which TLVs specify in which TLVs > a given sub-TLV is allowed. Section 2 of [RFC5305] is a given sub-TLV is allowed. Section 2 of [RFC5305] is > updated by the updated by the > following sentence: following sentence: > "As with TLVs, it is required that sub-TLVs which "As with TLVs, it is required that sub-TLVs which > skipping to change at page 8, line 5 P: skipping to change at page 8, line 14 P: > [RFC6232] Wei, F., Qin, Y., Li, Z., Li, T., and J. [RFC6232] Wei, F., Qin, Y., Li, Z., Li, T., and J. > Dong, "Purge Dong, "Purge > Originator Identification TLV for IS-IS", RFC 6232, Originator Identification TLV for IS-IS", RFC 6232, > DOI 10.17487/RFC6232, May 2011, DOI 10.17487/RFC6232, May 2011, > . . > [RFC6233] Li, T. and L. Ginsberg, "IS-IS Registry [RFC6233] Li, T. and L. Ginsberg, "IS-IS Registry > Extension for Extension for > Purges", RFC 6233, DOI 10.17487/RFC6233, May 2011, Purges", RFC 6233, DOI 10.17487/RFC6233, May 2011, > . . > [RFC7356] Ginsberg, L., Previdi, S., and Y. Yang, > "IS-IS Flooding > Scope Link State PDUs (LSPs)", RFC 7356, > DOI 10.17487/RFC7356, September 2014, > . > [RFC8174] Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs [RFC8174] Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs > Lowercase in RFC Lowercase in RFC > 2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI 2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI > 10.17487/RFC8174, 10.17487/RFC8174, > May 2017, . May 2017, . > [TLV_CODEPOINTS] [TLV_CODEPOINTS] > IANA, "IS-IS TLV Codepoints web page IANA, "IS-IS TLV Codepoints web page > (https://www.iana.org/assignments/isis-tlv-codepoints/ (https://www.iana.org/assignments/isis-tlv-codepoints/ > isis-tlv-codepoints.xhtml)". isis-tlv-codepoints.xhtml)". > 8.2. Informative References 8.2. Informative References > [RFC3359] Przygienda, T., "Reserved Type, Length and [RFC3359] Przygienda, T., "Reserved Type, Length and > Value (TLV) Value (TLV) > Codepoints in Intermediate System to Intermediate Codepoints in Intermediate System to Intermediate > System", System", > RFC 3359, DOI 10.17487/RFC3359, August 2002, RFC 3359, DOI 10.17487/RFC3359, August 2002, > . . > [RFC7356] Ginsberg, L., Previdi, S., and Y. Yang, > "IS-IS Flooding > Scope Link State PDUs (LSPs)", RFC 7356, > DOI 10.17487/RFC7356, September 2014, > . > Authors' Addresses Authors' Addresses > Les Ginsberg Les Ginsberg > Cisco Systems Cisco Systems > Email: ginsberg@cisco.com Email: ginsberg@cisco.com > Paul Wells Paul Wells > Cisco Systems Cisco Systems > End of changes. 12 change blocks. > 20 lines changed or deleted 24 lines changed or added > This html diff was produced by rfcdiff 1.47. The latest version is available from > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/ From nobody Mon Jul 13 21:20:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5C73A0D72; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MzLBg4jQGq_b; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A2E13A0D70; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id k5so922897pjg.3; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=NBVdMW294IP/yinLDaLEtB434TVO0tRtc6NSb761FvI=; b=t3M7H4nuHDWa1JeLORJ25nb+0qnqH+oCIKzga4Eqwq/mq4+cIUCRMBCgEFj1s2c5iz bTdZtUOzlO85GUmu4B7/88hg078QP/4J1eRUtwwpligo/gC8HHhlYfVqFK30UomVKVnx SmgxTiPdzqnh8ZQ+EqxBZy5KAoW6w8T4y50UJg/B3RQCeLRwDXq0bZLjaYgjYOWTw29v Ht5CsgzZM6pO0jTu9XsYbbGz3w0Q+tBaDLKpAhBGqIMdBZc/Hal1HUq6NW3oagfA7jww 6hCkB+b4RZmFPX3y7zU5TKjGQl0WYZBESDC4uagPf/RhFsHQiV9oJrPPl6f3TPhLxibI V8lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=NBVdMW294IP/yinLDaLEtB434TVO0tRtc6NSb761FvI=; b=J7osH/0pt3lVz/p1loxd/2SemzAGZlyid7FvEzOeYRsWesGIgarv+dRhm1rn0YUATE ToA8LZdbprbH07qjS5npNkUhxnYsxIZxs3qjB9BuU4BwSOSGSxpnEMp6nOZ8QC93+L3y 4RujI0BeMeaObhOY0q82S0QEKOBngH8JSDZj2y1GcMwacTOtKaADwLFFabwvh2CQkvXC Y/GdLB6J+SsxxiqF56BqTD/NnYXAE64rLvrb4aMlPJ/1luN1DrffrA7aSUNI8/QR7xp7 3muF0VIm2vXRT16zlZdhweqOcAg3KBAAYTdM+sBo/ZPnW3y4HbSG1UgzxeXuRFgiD8Hg xPOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307VjsjZQH6KqhtvxjlXFTg4ppNVRLtWRRTFuOkKxPvDBGxC+Jn QX5BMtK67ZyZ/+QGwFRt2GEvR5ti X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+gabH6ybC55KvXoVtiFiCFC/+Pzr+8QzpZTc3Nim1wbHKH3V/SAyQKccMAq0IVJ9OD57kNA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1b44:: with SMTP id nv4mr2664052pjb.84.1594700440494; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.82.9] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f18sm13803442pgv.84.2020.07.13.21.20.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Li Message-Id: <3C629384-87DA-4558-9C56-EA75AFDFD75E@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B5F923F8-7525-4380-BE30-35AD100BC9EC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:20:38 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:20:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B5F923F8-7525-4380-BE30-35AD100BC9EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Huaimo, > 1). It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ.=20 I feel that this is somewhat imprecise. =46rom my perspective, our attempts to collaborate have been hampered by = governmental regulations that are wholly out of our control. The = suggestions that I=E2=80=99ve made for continued collaboration within = the bounds of those controls have not been well received. Thus, to say = that something cannot be done is overstating the case. We have simply = not been wiilling to do so, which is most unfortunate. Who can say what = could happen if we could find a way for all three proposals to = collaborate? Regards, Tony --Apple-Mail=_B5F923F8-7525-4380-BE30-35AD100BC9EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Huaimo,


1).  It seems that Area = Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. 



I feel that this is somewhat = imprecise.

=46rom my perspective, = our attempts to collaborate have been hampered by governmental = regulations that are wholly out of our control. The suggestions that = I=E2=80=99ve made for continued collaboration within the bounds of those = controls have not been well received. Thus, to say that something cannot = be done is overstating the case.  We have simply not been wiilling = to do so, which is most unfortunate.  Who can say what could happen = if we could find a way for all three proposals to = collaborate?

Regards,
Tony

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Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:34:15 +0000 From: Huaimo Chen To: Tony Li CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWRejsDz5QFhQU9kCBa5hsczcb0qkBLZGAgAL5PgCAAeagYIAAhp9ggAAMYQCAAACTNg== Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:34:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <3C629384-87DA-4558-9C56-EA75AFDFD75E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3C629384-87DA-4558-9C56-EA75AFDFD75E@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [73.114.233.24] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c9789572-d6a5-4008-ceec-08d827af2a3c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR13MB3741: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: YPNmLUvMuh6tedsFfUAy3Va9I0ouKm/C/Tc/pTuA7F3YA4by4ddCgG84o4ZuyK893jCRPVh7C0DUdSr3cyS/76ayIeMcUBnr7LM3kEyfZ4ctN5IXwwEXBYgoVO1y5sLPn9lyfnwcIhXSHdXpgRmhlt6G3N7ITFsVAjydRQ7N9v9I9Oqn4vZW/2QOOwu2Ev6OXmOBpNWdATnwjGTvnvgUMp0B87TYgTT43W0pZreQA/pGPcFjOCRoTeIZZ+uws3Zoe0T6WI20PAR7JgdY7Q3AjJICMpqE4XmZ/eJdeyHIYnTghaVPvrrneBpzB+U9fj8YGX+iNOfHMSCHQ19EcW2g0w== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_MN2PR13MB31179870210475E9C0C27A1AF2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c9789572-d6a5-4008-ceec-08d827af2a3c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Jul 2020 04:34:15.2734 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Hg/ga/2+/6+O5lEuX+1KA6s+1aiFJSoCCunrulo5peVBDJ16oU3hglBufxWhJ3trCIZfKeysqxIw2K3wBpZqwA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB3741 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:34:19 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB31179870210475E9C0C27A1AF2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony=1B$B!$=1B(B 1). It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. IS-IS TTZ ab= stracts a zone to a single node. This abstraction is supported by the exten= sions to IS-IS, and some of these extensions are not defined in Area Proxy.= For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the zone are not defined= in Area Proxy. The details is underlined above. It says that some of the extensions in= IS-IS TTZ are not defined in Area Proxy. It seems accurate if we look at t= he details. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Tony Li Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 12:20 AM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: lsr@ietf.org ; lsr-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Huaimo, 1). It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. I feel that this is somewhat imprecise. >From my perspective, our attempts to collaborate have been hampered by gove= rnmental regulations that are wholly out of our control. The suggestions th= at I=1B$B!G=1B(Bve made for continued collaboration within the bounds of th= ose controls have not been well received. Thus, to say that something canno= t be done is overstating the case. We have simply not been wiilling to do = so, which is most unfortunate. Who can say what could happen if we could f= ind a way for all three proposals to collaborate? Regards, Tony --_000_MN2PR13MB31179870210475E9C0C27A1AF2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tony=1B$B!$=1B(B

1).  It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. IS-IS T= TZ abstracts a zone to a single node. This abstraction is supported by the = extensions to IS-IS, and some of these extensions are not defined in Area Proxy. For example,= the extensions for the edge nodes of the zone are not defined in Area Prox= y.

    The details is underlined above. It says that some of the ext= ensions in IS-IS TTZ are not defined in Area Proxy. It seems accurate if we= look at the details.
    
Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Tony Li <tony1atho= me@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 12:20 AM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>; lsr-chairs@ietf.org <lsr-c= hairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

Hi Huaimo,


1).  It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. 



I feel that this is somewhat imprecise.

From my perspective, our attempts to collaborate have been hampered by= governmental regulations that are wholly out of our control. The suggestio= ns that I=1B$B!G=1B(Bve made for continued collaboration within the bounds = of those controls have not been well received. Thus, to say that something cannot be done is overstating the case.  = We have simply not been wiilling to do so, which is most unfortunate.  = ;Who can say what could happen if we could find a way for all three proposa= ls to collaborate?

Regards,
Tony

--_000_MN2PR13MB31179870210475E9C0C27A1AF2610MN2PR13MB3117namp_-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 21:47:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9523A0F84; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z50GbaFdrGcq; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25BB83A0F83; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id s189so2007748pgc.13; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=hTupCj/H8IAVu2KufIOjf3qQxBmr8hf2/1WjTX8G5Zc=; b=uWJa2Nvd2CmwGROMTLzWWz3PL2IKSOD9gzXNLY/OerVmHoivE/t4LWchMNnln6sUXZ ql8kOY9Ezh/iio/xUQHM9uZ/AlvR55MA/cNpeSScb5ZjDq0W8BUlcViNOwU9gI4lYarK eOMsm7lH7QKTosXSvQvGqqzMXxG5xL2Qs1bP0qVnymLw/v6N4J6tpqyvsQpQWpDCzgm1 evVpfvmU7NyUJNeN8/IotCw9L0+yE44fXEL3HqEO2HTcKScmXmy/X/Imv2KO6LX3EVMk fnNGdfpTGpHbJ60e3eTdalkrHhE8aq+V5vg5TxeulPqnK0xrQ30yOvL+tuo+WRQnyAU/ M5oQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=hTupCj/H8IAVu2KufIOjf3qQxBmr8hf2/1WjTX8G5Zc=; b=STfEm3RddT3amKnXeKY7FGEVQa4bkdYCJ8d66tw82gE1wfL+l7IVa1iDzili4y1I4M tPkSIEnXGiMR0PIi5EE+mEZyk7RApsMkzEjsmGAbLPUh1eDGlz/4Klj5qCdHy5/3B3kj BdEbMIxUpTagpUJtnouNvHSdwpWKcAU2d230L+k38a+D3P7TcQshDcCmuykiy/UYniX6 fPb00PtH/v+WOKdm6cIkWHSFyhraaaD+DHezhLhwYH3Vs+7/EVsoy7lm2CD2g/6qjkiP ChPCXrG0G/H/dx/pH1BkvnSSzcHeFphIGvTkCibD1jBi5sAA6ACQKq8JPwcjx/AI7dxz 2GhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531A0Xh/ywGzVZ1PCnyxJE/0zaCuT8iLOxuL2mXD7ktWY91Jdezp coNWrSHYhxEKqLQoivL2KDPXfCs4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVY0IiLaxExAxJtPtrllaNG0ZaUmEwr1CYGfS2BSX58v/bQyCzUZjEQND3yq0ZQ2OMJ29eLQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7b41:: with SMTP id w62mr2632386pfc.98.1594702069622; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.82.9] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 7sm14180009pgh.80.2020.07.13.21.47.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Li Message-Id: <1788E3A6-790D-4C26-9587-1B48076B05DA@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB03EEE9-2810-4B82-B055-DE71D16C992A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:47:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: <3C629384-87DA-4558-9C56-EA75AFDFD75E@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:47:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DB03EEE9-2810-4B82-B055-DE71D16C992A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Huaimo, > 1). It seems that Area Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. IS-IS = TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. This abstraction is supported by = the extensions to IS-IS, and some of these extensions are not defined in = Area Proxy. For example, the extensions for the edge nodes of the zone = are not defined in Area Proxy. >=20 > The details is underlined above. It says that some of the = extensions in IS-IS TTZ are not defined in Area Proxy. It seems accurate = if we look at the details Apparently, we have very different understandings of the words = =E2=80=9Camended to=E2=80=9D. And so it goes. Regards, Tony --Apple-Mail=_DB03EEE9-2810-4B82-B055-DE71D16C992A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Huaimo,


1).  It seems that Area = Proxy can not be amended to IS-IS TTZ. IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a = single node. This abstraction is supported by the extensions to IS-IS, = and some = of these extensions are not defined in Area Proxy. For example, the extensions = for the edge nodes of the zone are not defined in Area = Proxy.

 =   The details is underlined above. It says that some of the = extensions in IS-IS TTZ are not defined in Area Proxy. It seems accurate = if we look at the details


Apparently, we have very = different understandings of the words =E2=80=9Camended = to=E2=80=9D.

And so it = goes.

Regards,
Tony


= --Apple-Mail=_DB03EEE9-2810-4B82-B055-DE71D16C992A-- From nobody Tue Jul 14 02:24:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569653A0775; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:24:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, chopps@chopps.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <159471868933.24921.14877121564881281834@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:24:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Robert Wilton's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 09:24:49 -0000 Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The document is short and easy to read, thanks! However, I was sure whether I should put a DISCUSS on this document for section 3.4. I find that the quoted paragraph from RFC6232 to be badly worded: "The POI TLV SHOULD be found in all purges and MUST NOT be found in LSPs with a non-zero Remaining Lifetime." Taking a strict reading of this, my interpretation is that an implementation is not compliant to RFC 6232 if it happens to receive a POI TLV in an LSP with non-zero remaining lifetime! Further, this text then arguably conflicts with earlier parts of this document regarding how unrecognized or bad TLVs should be handled. Hence, given that RFC6232 is being updated, I would prefer it if this document also updated RFC6232 to clarify the above paragraph to something like: "The POI TLV SHOULD be sent in all purges and MUST NOT be sent in LSPs with a non-zero Remaining Lifetime." One other minor comment: It is RECOMMENDED that implementations provide controls for the enablement of behaviors that are not backward compatible. Is this covered by the existing ISIS YANG model, or included in the latest update to that YANG model? Regards, Rob From nobody Tue Jul 14 04:15:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C6C3A0A65; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:15:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l5dsWcFH60ip; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 04:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from taper.sei.cmu.edu (taper.sei.cmu.edu [147.72.252.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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(147.72.252.46) by CASCADE.ad.sei.cmu.edu (10.64.28.248) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:15:05 -0400 Received: from MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu (147.72.252.46) by MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu (147.72.252.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1979.3; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:15:05 -0400 Received: from MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([fe80::555b:9498:552e:d1bb]) by MORRIS.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([fe80::555b:9498:552e:d1bb%13]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:15:05 -0400 From: Roman Danyliw To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , The IESG CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "chopps@chopps.org" , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWWSOZ4sfixKKl3kaml5ebKpLyV6kF7AgAgAADJgCAAAV/AIAABA8AgAC5yACAADoYAA== Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:15:05 +0000 Message-ID: <47748649e3cd486199e07617c6f8c3cb@cert.org> References: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.202.157] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:15:23 -0000 SGkgTGVzIGFuZCBBY2VlIQ0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206 IExlcyBHaW5zYmVyZyAoZ2luc2JlcmcpIDxnaW5zYmVyZ0BjaXNjby5jb20+DQo+IFNlbnQ6IE1v bmRheSwgSnVseSAxMywgMjAyMCAxMTo0MyBQTQ0KPiBUbzogQWNlZSBMaW5kZW0gKGFjZWUpIDxh 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15.20.3174.025; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:26:21 +0000 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Roman Danyliw , "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , The IESG CC: "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "chopps@chopps.org" , "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHWWSOgblWvvAOWak2Fzdn4RjAwkakFqPoA///AFoCAAEiOAP//wQGAgAD81wCAAH5PgP//4Z2A Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:26:20 +0000 Message-ID: <52BD2795-21D0-4F37-8ABB-29D1222E7F80@cisco.com> References: <159465119530.29756.2563469610228907669@ietfa.amsl.com> <47748649e3cd486199e07617c6f8c3cb@cert.org> In-Reply-To: <47748649e3cd486199e07617c6f8c3cb@cert.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 authentication-results: cert.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cert.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; 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<4AFC09D337B6394982B844DE0B51F025@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB2887.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8180d558-6217-4bba-662d-08d827f97f62 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Jul 2020 13:26:20.9620 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bHO4gLTiOLk+bOfLKwdePgS484QhyXFZTQTyQ/SB79FEDaihU/NA8O8lHAXHI4b+ X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4212 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org 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MjgxNzI1NzIlN0MwZmVlOGZmMmEzYjI0MDE4OWM3NTNhMWQ1NTkxZmVkYyU3QzElN0MwJTdDNjM3 MzAzNDI3MTc0MjMzNzExJmFtcDtzZGF0YT12ZmZ6MTJmaldWRiUyRkJteE1XazQ3THVqREpBeUls eUZ2bUQ2aHpMaU1Hc1ElM0QmYW1wO3Jlc2VydmVkPTANCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jul 14 10:57:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AB93A09B7; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4583A005F for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 05:22:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=xs4all.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e26gvWKkFjWc for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 05:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lb3-smtp-cloud8.xs4all.net (lb3-smtp-cloud8.xs4all.net [194.109.24.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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POST); Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:22:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:22:25 +0200 From: Henk Smit To: Huaimo Chen Cc: lsr@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: X-Sender: henk.ietf@xs4all.nl User-Agent: XS4ALL Webmail X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNQ/CiNO4tRV46Q1cCNihZ4Sar5zaPccexNe4LN+ac/C8qgCGtKHjjnAHM3WD9o8vV48QA9GW8q22M+WsJs2MmXbvcgw8jrRwlw5owYdNhSvOwOxEUJi CC0rwj5QxYH7BR/uNTI0yL6+cWizqB4uOlqz22eaihxpp1DIs7IEutCa+cJFQQAYoPpf4CGpJIWDgIR2AGCiZ/TWjPUIATS3odsRQ21enCQJd1XP9C8vk42o zUB6pEYrfwCGjSCfUWf9BA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:22:32 -0000 Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > more flexible and convenient to users. I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. I actually think this convenience is a downside. Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept of an area makes things only more complex. How often will this new flexibility be used in the real world ? I still haven't seen an answer to Christian Hopp's simple question: "Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone ?" Anyone who has an answer ? My favorite rule of RFC1925 is rule 12: In protocol design, perfection has been reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol in the long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a zone, is strong enough to be worthwhile, imho. henk. 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Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:19:09 +0000 From: John E Drake To: Henk Smit , Huaimo Chen CC: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWRejsDz5QFhQU9kCBa5hsczcb0qkBLZGAgAL5PgCAAeagYIAAhp9ggAIlUYCAAB/W4A== Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:19:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-07-15T14:19:07Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=bb76ca74-cb00-41f0-b055-4f32e46b45b9; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 authentication-results: xs4all.nl; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;xs4all.nl; 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The TTZ seems to be a gratuitous addition. Yours Irrespectively, John Juniper Business Use Only > -----Original Message----- > From: Lsr On Behalf Of Henk Smit > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 8:22 AM > To: Huaimo Chen > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > [External Email. Be cautious of content] >=20 >=20 > Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: >=20 > > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > > more flexible and convenient to users. >=20 > I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. > I actually think this convenience is a downside. >=20 >=20 > Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have the > misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. > Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept of = an > area makes things only more complex. >=20 > How often will this new flexibility be used in the real world ? > I still haven't seen an answer to Christian Hopp's simple question: > "Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone ?" > Anyone who has an answer ? >=20 > My favorite rule of RFC1925 is rule 12: > In protocol design, perfection has been reached not when there is > nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. >=20 > Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol in the= long run. > The ability to abstract an area, and not also a zone, is strong enough to= be > worthwhile, imho. >=20 > henk. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr__;!= !NEt > 6yMaO- > gk!Qd22Qan7jubM_Vup5P5G6gsGg_horPl4PSDx8qS_v03ZIb8sNalgwEsGJ7Q61cc > $ From nobody Wed Jul 15 07:36:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB42D3A0CC6 for ; 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Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:36:44 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: John E Drake , Henk Smit , Huaimo Chen CC: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWRejsDz5QFhQU9kCBa5hsczcb0qkBLZGAgAL5PgCAAeagYIAAhp9ggAIlUYCAAB/W4IAABMsA Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:36:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-07-15T14:19:07Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=bb76ca74-cb00-41f0-b055-4f32e46b45b9; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6b23e803-1087-464c-76cb-08d828cc7f75 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Jul 2020 14:36:44.7930 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: UlLUWl4blloZgKHNLmToLKAEqgYaNpEN7LuafHc/9ECQl3d/5P4CpvTgD40lWfYtplYBoabRHMHIa9KSdWa26g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3798 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:36:50 -0000 +1 I think Henk has spoken eloquently here - as have others before him. Abstracting an area may be useful - the WG has yet to fully decide on that. But nothing so far has demonstrated that we need to go even further and abs= tract a subset of an area. Les > -----Original Message----- > From: Lsr On Behalf Of John E Drake > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 7:19 AM > To: Henk Smit ; Huaimo Chen > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > I agree w/ Henk. The TTZ seems to be a gratuitous addition. >=20 > Yours Irrespectively, >=20 > John >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lsr On Behalf Of Henk Smit > > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 8:22 AM > > To: Huaimo Chen > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > > > > Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > > > > > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any targe= t > > > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seem= s > > > more flexible and convenient to users. > > > > I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. > > I actually think this convenience is a downside. > > > > > > Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have th= e > > misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. > > Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept o= f > an > > area makes things only more complex. > > > > How often will this new flexibility be used in the real world ? > > I still haven't seen an answer to Christian Hopp's simple question: > > "Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone ?" > > Anyone who has an answer ? > > > > My favorite rule of RFC1925 is rule 12: > > In protocol design, perfection has been reached not when there is > > nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. > > > > Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol in t= he > long run. > > The ability to abstract an area, and not also a zone, is strong enough = to be > > worthwhile, imho. > > > > henk. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsr mailing list > > Lsr@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr__;! > !NEt > > 6yMaO- > > > gk!Qd22Qan7jubM_Vup5P5G6gsGg_horPl4PSDx8qS_v03ZIb8sNalgwEsGJ7Q6 > 1cc > > $ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:37:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A1A3A003E; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:37:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1l2WDA_LJlR2; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe32.google.com (mail-vs1-xe32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBA0C3A0044; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe32.google.com with SMTP id q15so1430298vso.9; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:37:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uhHvUHF9uuzGTLIBh6Yp/zQYIALCK5FbOuLTdHT631g=; b=E2sbqpeE4po9PNbTtMpQ5W29cN+BNTDHwJbtBdqMxCXb/+qoeCVcVS+YY7PG6Zz4/6 2FLLCihy27kwpVBTFap/HMmdiZoh+3VBymaQ1yIkobzkuKfJAGIvYDJaTkHQfRUtYzsh 2BDB2dKgIAa4bozsSC/JfsKB8AyG8DrAnC5O6bcZfW4lh4SZBFaVTAj8uMWhoCRY8P+N GtREz/rl+TVD21ohUkrrS4ksGo37hIcWlGv+m+rkoT2bm9pKF+GcQqOgysrggSfPJD61 pb46j/qnPJYtIUwm0YGgL+h4Sl9mZGQ64LLBrf4Pduau0OK9CzY4JqgQ4yRRN8rTyd3L UliA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uhHvUHF9uuzGTLIBh6Yp/zQYIALCK5FbOuLTdHT631g=; b=t60jAXgRILtJs3HklVGrCykeHN13NkBIe+2QqxhM8Yqd5RhY2iypFOSn1rHzqwDDzk rk4eFOmU4VRqK2Z4xS70G4WZfqiMKvV+3Efjr58vTM4V/6AFZQ4oeV1dxb7Kyd4iK34X gjlvGWqIV9OZP/WDeFYpkwbfXd3baedipRRToYA9CwxLAbI7GZ9sR9pVuy3tS8bLL2VH LONfQu5AMLnVSqIYsUa0oB/6iGh1ODCnJwYrIzonJSUGyV09DGqZGK+ert3/vvpoI386 +6xy66lPXakUA3d2Prdxd/LWHV6VJDSyhW02GhE6F3ndb6qy0Z5xZ3LDymFlfzZ+y6c+ VJjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iEoF3DNRq6fSHkYfG7FrXXFlp0NZXGQD0brIxqy/ZyWAhQkpo SOGNOCAirJz6JvYUclIAjYnEsQGYPWIDXoIpr9Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwru0EwXwDnDSCWq8PYw5x+mmuowyqRbWDwu+HNA9jB0wVJqVBl8IrIbFeLU4U4rKqOpKUfrdygxBBZCBlBmLI= X-Received: by 2002:a67:bd07:: with SMTP id y7mr7863242vsq.235.1594831067723; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:37:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <900EBBC7-2A1F-4592-BBC8-4B90FB3A1978@chopps.org> In-Reply-To: <900EBBC7-2A1F-4592-BBC8-4B90FB3A1978@chopps.org> From: Uma Chunduri Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:37:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christian Hopps Cc: Huaimo Chen , "lsr@ietf.org" , "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044bafc05aa7d8b56" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:37:50 -0000 --00000000000044bafc05aa7d8b56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Chris, On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 4:44 AM Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > On Jul 10, 2020, at 7:07 PM, Uma Chunduri wrote: > > > > I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption. > > > > Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant > to OSPF (thx for the updated version). > > Thanks for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF > protocol first (RFC 8099). > > Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone? > The simple answer is I don't know. I would let the authors of 8099 speak up who might know about the deployment status and how this experimental RFC helped. I also believe this question is more relevant if there is a BIS document for the same as discussed in the list for further enhancements and possible deployment experience (as it's possible who is using this and might not be active here). -- Uma C. > I would be very interested in hearing from operators who have experience > with TTZ since RFC8099 has been around for over 3 years now. > --00000000000044bafc05aa7d8b56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Chris,=C2=A0

On Sat, J= ul 11, 2020 at 4:44 AM Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:


> On Jul 10, 2020, at 7:07 PM, Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 I would support the IS-IS TTZ solution for WG adoption.
>
> Of course, obviously not with OSPF encodings or concepts only relevant= to OSPF (thx for the updated version).
> Thanks for the good work which was started way back on TTZs with OSPF = protocol first (RFC 8099).

Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone?

Th= e simple answer is I don't know. I would let the authors of 8099 speak = up who might know about the deployment status and how this experimental RFC= helped.

I also believe this question is more rele= vant if there is a BIS document for the same as discussed in the list for f= urther enhancements and=C2=A0
possible deployment experience (as = it's possible who is using this and might not be active here).

--
Uma C.
=C2=A0
I would be very interested in hearing= from operators who have experience with TTZ since RFC8099 has been around = for over 3 years now.

=C2=A0
= =C2=A0
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Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:50:47 +0000 From: Richard Li To: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AdZaxtUz6Vc9/cdATI2Z9H+mEKAEsw== Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:50:47 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [76.102.116.231] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a914948c-d17f-4e04-2025-08d828df390a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR13MB3345: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Mi4vYNPiukRYJvXUd8b1pxu/vipVoQS21WLMfS0Oj6l5F9l3GF1+CBrWIxK8tsJuqWLE3vM2DrNjItlBOx9gpkJFhFE9eq+bLvMVT0ol3lI4/69tS4uZqtcHRkbBCCpIMmtRtxjyGzRLAoWjT+m+vGxVXJDnsTd6W6+8mXUJy3/bc2HlynzTUmhz1aaM6Z+lge4tGonprli2qoCo4dckjq8hyLubxYJWmDOICJSnMhWbKp062L726YBD+PBnjzbDVHZ2FXQGtHVyGaT9YYF7ld2z+GtZwhf1NI1QR3Z+qGxzBaNvg7El1bEpXII7S6CIvKOSvV0X1edEeUWkeNdmjNa5SmaiQ0BIKqPpuGQYxeNdv9MDSWLYVdGjVCC3SlIHf2MEcLl/QiEB9zUD3UBfcg== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_BYAPR13MB22790C54D5555BF07E294846877E0BYAPR13MB2279namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR13MB2279.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a914948c-d17f-4e04-2025-08d828df390a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Jul 2020 16:50:47.0979 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8bHu3SfYrudT80eQbPfz0Ut1+xPzUq5ywHXHm251eWztPt0KuH/9PF2M8s3iYLw8j4T00sZuaOZytD+Jcag33Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR13MB3345 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:50:52 -0000 --_000_BYAPR13MB22790C54D5555BF07E294846877E0BYAPR13MB2279namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft. Using TTZ it is straightforward and easy to turn a zone into a single virtu= alized node. TTZ can provably achieve topology complexity reduction and sc= alability enhancement. The operation is simple, and the customer experience= is enhanced. Its benefit weighs more than its cost. The LSR should let the= work on TTZ move forward. Stay safe and healthy, everyone! Thanks, Richard > On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:38 PM Huaimo Chen <= mailto:<huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>> wrote: > > Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone, > > > > I would like to request working group adoption of "Topology-Transpare= nt Zone" > > (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ . > > > This draft comprises the following solutions for helping to improve s= calability: > > 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS, > > 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF, > > 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and > > 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node. > > A zone is a block of an area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or > > non-backbone area). > > > > When a network area becomes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the = sense > > of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node or > > abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes. > > > > While a zone is being abstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo = node, > > the network is stable. There is no or minimum service interruption. > > > > After abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to re= construct > > them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseudo nodes back to its zone = smoothly > > with no or minimum service interruption. > > > > We had a prototype implementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges= ' full > > mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protocol extensions for transfer= ring > > smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess are implemented and tested. > > A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly transferred to its edges' full= mess > > without any routing disruptions. The routes on every router are stable wh= ile > > the zone is being transferred to its edges' mess. It is very easy to oper= ate > > the transferring. > > > > There are two other drafts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for= IS-IS" > > (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Reflection" (Flood Reflection for= short). > > > > "Area Proxy" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy= -03 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single pseudo node. > > > > "Flood Reflection" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-f= lood-reflection-01 > > abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edges' connections via one or = more > > flood reflectors. > > > > We believe that TTZ has some special advantages even though > > Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy. We would like > > to ask for working group adoption of TTZ. > > > > Best Regards, > > Huaimo > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_BYAPR13MB22790C54D5555BF07E294846877E0BYAPR13MB2279namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support the adoption of the IS-IS TTZ draft.<= /o:p>

 

Using TTZ it is straightforward and easy to turn a z= one into a single virtualized node. TTZ can provably achieve  topology= complexity reduction and scalability enhancement. The operation is simple,= and the customer experience is enhanced. Its benefit weighs more than its cost. The LSR should let the work on TTZ = move forward.

 

Stay safe and healthy, everyone!

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

 

 

 

> On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 11:38 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> wrote:

> 

> Hi Chris and Acee, and everyone,

> 

> 

> 

>     I would like to request= working group adoption of "Topology-Transparent Zone"=

> 

> (TTZ for short) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chen-isis-ttz/ .

> 

> 

>     This draft comprises th= e following solutions for helping to improve scalability:

> 

>        = 1) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in IS-IS,

> 

>        = 2) abstracting a zone to a single pseudo node in OSPF,

> 

>        = 3) abstracting a zone to zone edges' full mess in IS-IS, and

> 

>        = 4) transferring smoothly between a zone and a single pseudo node.

> 

>     A zone is a block of an= area (IS-IS L2 or L1 area, OSPF backbone or

> 

> non-backbone area).

> 

> 

> 

>     When a network area bec= omes (too) big, we can reduce its size in the sense

> 

> of its LSDB size through abstracting a zone to = a single pseudo node or

> 

> abstracting a few zones to a few pseudo nodes.<= o:p>

> 

> 

> 

>     While a zone is being a= bstracted (or transferred) to a single pseudo node,

> 

> the network is stable. There is no or minimum s= ervice interruption.

> 

> 

> 

>     After abstracting a few= zones to a few pseudo nodes, if we want to reconstruct

> 

> them, we can transfer (or roll) any of the pseu= do nodes back to its zone smoothly

> 

> with no or minimum service interruption.

> 

> 

> 

>     We had a prototype impl= ementation of abstracting a zone to zone edges' full

> 

> mess in OSPF. The procedures and related protoc= ol extensions for transferring

> 

> smoothly from a zone to zone edges' full mess a= re implemented and tested.

> 

> A zone (block of an OSPF area) is smoothly tran= sferred to its edges’ full mess

> 

> without any routing disruptions. The routes on = every router are stable while

> 

> the zone is being transferred to its edges' mes= s. It is very easy to operate

> 

> the transferring.

> 

> 

> 

>     There are two other dra= fts for improving scalability: "Area Proxy for IS-IS"<= /p>

> 

> (Area Proxy for short) and "IS-IS Flood Re= flection" (Flood Reflection for short).

> 

> 

> 

>     "Area Proxy" = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-lsr-isis-area-proxy-03<= /p>

> 

> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to a single= pseudo node.

> 

> 

> 

>     "Flood Reflection&= quot; https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-przygienda-lsr-flood-reflection-01

> 

> abstracts an existing IS-IS L1 area to its edge= s' connections via one or more

> 

> flood reflectors.

> 

> 

> 

>     We believe that TTZ has= some special advantages even though

> 

> Area Proxy and Flood Reflection are very worthy= . We would like

> 

> to ask for working group adoption of TTZ.<= /o:p>

> 

> 

> 

> Best Regards,

> 

> Huaimo

> 

> _______________________________________________=

> Lsr mailing list

> Lsr@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

 

--_000_BYAPR13MB22790C54D5555BF07E294846877E0BYAPR13MB2279namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:52:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DD03A0064 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5U6iifoq3K5u for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A92B3A00C1 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id q15so1454848vso.9 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5RtTkwnyl7gM5OakfCIVHQtSiqq9LE5yb0JftAgmcvM=; b=W3hblvI4IvtJUFrUrQ5R+iR1BXTDAnodnAWI+5+66zG0QJzLD8iVeFSlQpTh6dYxcO ZWqz0TsnkdG3ZvCDbdyp2AzpchpVIL60LjLFEOgUkOT3xubbGp1srYGNx9N4OZy3dN11 aXrJg55sG6e24dWsOSSjGwwJzN/ERk4bzU8/c3uBWZEt22dBcHKbcKwCjTEB+wUzLFjE J2OnaQ0yH9ppxqoo2yn3OVydB+IcqTrj4zTwLjRuOxDo0OWYMl0oEwzSR3TrrkqQSTgD RC++49/Swx9tPaTvXyOUPDnZs1NcaTFBdMa4C+YAjkxVETGrc7idn3SVIdCVVMYmCPaE tn+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5RtTkwnyl7gM5OakfCIVHQtSiqq9LE5yb0JftAgmcvM=; b=fTBSZvOgwpU1D39PmsNiXL1DtgJsVsX0MsVffZ28oF4Q/hUhdwm6XXF/rFRWwciB0A OfjD7j3mzdQnj8lOvAJh1GE8EKBkVDDSKL06AWFWHO6yTU8cv94UcmSefzFzkr/yPYBN yK6xgLIIbDYdXZ6DEEbyxPtrhpjsWHHY1q1f9uzVJsOkNWF8DY2bs4mUEqxH8b4Q3dkc SyeD8SIpTh//kYptNeQzYQ48wGPdR3r0FvIVc5200mUXGSElYxdTM4lBa3epmtDaU65P Q+DVM9bQ/hxjO6nq1uW6sP/rH2xzCCpF4dCfDt2DmaoxsboXuxiTuH9dW23x79DBOkxf LMBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vja2hk+d1D5ApxspWOqUpWOLxc6R2kJrstKdxboQJsFKtScZB 2rzLrAfbzO1oHdc8NhIyhDwWPYPXHBWhDd5QXF6FVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyUaKxrXUUVwZJoQ7tHkdXJQh2E81Yqx6vahE5minznAxKtIb3rsy3EAihX/p40n3vuwH/yMZ5wYlt2yVl9bFY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:bd07:: with SMTP id y7mr38219vsq.235.1594831960545; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:52:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Uma Chunduri Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:52:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Henk Smit Cc: Huaimo Chen , lsr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c1dae05aa7dc080" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 16:52:43 -0000 --0000000000007c1dae05aa7dc080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk Smit wrote: > Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > > > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > > more flexible and convenient to users. > > I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. > I actually think this convenience is a downside. > I actually think not having more configuration across the network to enable a new feature is more useful even if you don't do this operation every single day (especially if you want to roll back). Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already > have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. > Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the > concept of an area makes things only more complex. > Agree in general. I would say this is no more complex than what has been adopted already or the slew of proposals we have been seeing here. I too think as some other said we should have ideally adopted only one proposal by merging whatever possible. As that is not the case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepted as WG experimental track, and given the interest/support on this particular topic I would think it's reasonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as is done in OSPF. -- Uma C. --0000000000007c1dae05aa7dc080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk = Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>= wrote:
Huaimo C= hen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09:

>=C2=A0 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any t= arget
> block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems=
> more flexible and convenient to users.

I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial.
I actually think this = convenience is a downside.

I actually t= hink not=C2=A0 having more configuration across the network to enable a new= feature is more useful even if=C2=A0
you don't do this opera= tion every single day (especially if you want to roll back).=C2=A0


To: Uma Chunduri , Henk Smit CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , Huaimo Chen Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWRejsDz5QFhQU9kCBa5hsczcb0qkBLZGAgAL5PgCAAeagYIAAhp9ggAIlUYCAAEt8gP//wwKA Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:14:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [136.56.133.70] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 71632608-1ae8-40b4-19d4-08d828e28330 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3158: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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SMTP id y7mr211369vsq.235.1594834713220; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Uma Chunduri Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 10:38:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e9c4f05aa7e647f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:38:36 -0000 --0000000000008e9c4f05aa7e647f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Acee, In-line .. On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Speaking as WG member=E2=80=A6 > > > > See inline. > > > > *From: *Lsr on behalf of Uma Chunduri < > umac.ietf@gmail.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM > *To: *Henk Smit > *Cc: *"lsr@ietf.org" , Huaimo Chen < > huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> > *Subject: *Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk Smit wrote: > > Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > > > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > > more flexible and convenient to users. > > I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. > > I actually think this convenience is a downside. > > > > I actually think not having more configuration across the network to > enable a new feature is more useful even if > > you don't do this operation every single day (especially if you want to > roll back). > > > > > > Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already > have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. > Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the > concept of an area makes things only more complex. > > > > Agree in general. > > > > I would say this is no more complex than what has been adopted already or > the slew of proposals we have been seeing here. > > > > I too think as some other said we should have ideally adopted only one > proposal by merging whatever possible. > > As that is not the case and 2 parallel proposals have already been > accepted as WG experimental track, and given the interest/support on this > particular topic > > I would think it's reasonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as > is done in OSPF. > > > > I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as > experimental are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of bett= er > LSDB scalability across an IS-IS routing domain. > You are right, of course. IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting a zone (i.e., block) of an IS-IS area to a single node. RFC 8099 is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh. So, afais, IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving network scalability. Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of > having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the > Area/Zone, the two proposals are very similar. > Thanks for pointing this; > I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are > not required. > These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a description > of the transition mechanisms. > I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages matter for them or not matter much. Thank you! -- Uma C. > > > Thanks, > Acee > > > > > > -- > > Uma C. > --0000000000008e9c4f05aa7e647f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Acee,

In-line ..
=

= On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

Speaking as WG member=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

See inline.

=C2=A0

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> o= n behalf of Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM
To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
Cc: "lsr@ietf= .org" <lsr@ie= tf.org>, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at = 5:22 AM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:

Huaimo Chen wrote on 202= 0-07-14 06:09:

>=C2=A0 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any t= arget
> block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems=
> more flexible and convenient to users.

I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial.=

I actually think this co= nvenience is a downside.

=C2=A0

I actually think not=C2= =A0 having more configuration across the network to enable a new feature is= more useful even if=C2=A0

you don't do this op= eration every single day (especially if you want to roll back).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Link-state protocols are= not easy to understand. And we already
have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things.
Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the
concept of an area makes things only more complex.

=C2=A0

Agree in general.=

=C2=A0

I would say this is no m= ore complex than what has been adopted already or the slew of proposals we = have been seeing here.

=C2=A0

I too think as some othe= r said we should=C2=A0have ideally adopted only one proposal by merging wha= tever=C2=A0possible.=C2=A0

As=C2=A0 that is not the= case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepted as WG experimenta= l track, and given the interest/support on this particular topic<= /u>

I would think it's r= easonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as is done in OSPF.

=C2=A0

I think that the two proposals that have already bee= n adopted as experimental are VERY different in the way they solve the prob= lem of better LSDB scalability across an IS-IS routing domain.


You are right, of cou= rse.=C2=A0IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting a zone (i.e., block) of an IS-IS area to a single node.

RFC = 8099 is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh.=C2=A0 So, afais,=C2=A0IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving network scalability.=C2=A0


Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has = adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single = LSP representing the Area/Zone, the two proposals are very similar.


Thanks for poin= ting this;
=C2=A0

I agree with Henk, Les, and = John that the purported advantages of TTZ are not required.

=

These advantages being arbitra= ry abstraction boundaries and a description of the transition mechanisms.

=

I would leav= e this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages matter for them or = not matter much.

Thank you!

--
Uma C.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thanks,
Acee

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Uma C.

--0000000000008e9c4f05aa7e647f-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 17:41:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5206C3A0F2B for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1TfGUYlMG-Zx for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7FD33A0F32 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 17:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml710-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4AA799A011C590F45F60; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:41:32 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) by lhreml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:41:31 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:41:29 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:41:29 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Henk Smit , Huaimo Chen CC: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVtyxyMQlBqiq1UmyeWXZgtgNVKkDfssAgAHnQACAAI8hgIACHDCAgAFTHVA= Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 00:41:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.177] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 00:41:37 -0000 Hi Henk, "Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol in the = long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a zone, is strong e= nough to be worthwhile, imho." Your conclusion here seems very subjective. What's the criterion the evaluate the benefit? What I see the TTZ does have= benefit. I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run? ... Tianran -----Original Message----- From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Smit Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 8:22 PM To: Huaimo Chen Cc: lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target=20 > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems=20 > more flexible and convenient to users. I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. I actually think this convenience is a downside. Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have the mi= sfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept of an= area makes things only more complex. How often will this new flexibility be used in the real world ? I still haven't seen an answer to Christian Hopp's simple question: "Has RFC8099 been deployed by anyone ?" Anyone who has an answer ? My favorite rule of RFC1925 is rule 12: In protocol design, perfection has been reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol in the l= ong run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a zone, is strong en= ough to be worthwhile, imho. henk. _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Thu Jul 16 01:46:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A44B3A1202 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:46:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=xs4all.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dcG7By7LMdb6 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lb3-smtp-cloud8.xs4all.net (lb3-smtp-cloud8.xs4all.net [194.109.24.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8281A3A1201 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.xs4all.nl ([IPv6:2001:888:0:22:194:109:20:200]) by smtp-cloud8.xs4all.net with ESMTPA id vzWcj326xNPeYvzWcjTkWy; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:45:54 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=xs4all.nl; s=s1; t=1594889154; bh=6sj8nEuIadd2xxAnbqPAnW1K1/KieXb7joFN5qQjSK4=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:From: Subject; b=OMRPhkN2HsmeNYtRAwgAGQPgvl70J47KxR+ApLDE1D++SWkZAMVS+B/FyuZekedAA uEOjIP3cxPE08Uf7dhA9c/9vWkq4yzqFWaavtNOw6LipvnRhIcucYOvRKHR3Kr7BEl djY1HlzB1RtEXxfCKGYsvcPF4vABDfLwj3Odi2Ab5fsWBtsUlym1jdjIzhJOe7LaV6 VReF7rLM0HF9uZ4mEvNxAYH7QkOCPScZj8l2AgHuJ6WQCRexjKnI+ID432qSpFLy/n Xg21uvFWOgkHIOHmEIY5nj/vo8bPCnc3lD7ibU0uJaH3p8LBLf9I4MmSt41vKCpIEN gCXqkm9bAQ8SA== Received: from knint.xs4all.nl ([83.162.203.154]) by webmail.xs4all.nl with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:45:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:45:54 +0200 From: Henk Smit To: Tianran Zhou Cc: Huaimo Chen , lsr@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <8d0c8294b701eb8f78b7d8fe87c156c9@xs4all.nl> X-Sender: henk.ietf@xs4all.nl User-Agent: XS4ALL Webmail X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNAPYfwR9HXQi5SImg77XYIi/W0nQN3j5PTe5bi0eZRfltwDWA3bHG1pSpIR9gxOBCbb0lDMs8ejcsV/vwu/3xB/PoxV0JfyKduEXpLHXY1YcC/lmLZh ki2gvauMdP8C5Lq3WEUtar5skpKTYt4COQBcMph8MnkYKN/QJlRrAVvqV8zq6Gk81FfYur8wxuW558/6Yj4D7jW4rfTXmenadEy0By6KnoAnhRsjEaAu4u0s GyPl2u+2GSG1ui5u7EAEYFkz0bMF+ftLGVDw626vaWE= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:46:02 -0000 Hello Tianran, Warning, long email again. > What's the criterion to evaluate the benefit? As people have asked before, did any provider or enterprise ever use rfc8099 in their network ? As I wrote, one of my criteria is rfc1925. I like technology to be understandable. I like protocols to be (relatively) easy to implement. The more unused cruft there is, the further we get away from that goal. I'll give you an example. Did you, or your company ever implement rfc2973 ? That's mesh-groups in IS-IS. I'm sure some customers put it on their wishlist. Did any provider or customer ever use it ? I asked this question at my last job, and nobody knew the answer. I suspect nobody in the world ever used mesh-groups. Around the time I got in touch with IS-IS, in spring 1996, there was a problem that was seen 2 of the 3 largest ISPs in the US (UUnet and iMCI). Both networks melted because of IS-IS. All routers in their networks were 100% cpu time running IS-IS, busy exchanging LSPs. While no progress was made. The only solution was to reboot all routers in the backbone at the same time (several hundred routers). This happened more than once in both networks. To relieve the burden of flooding, mesh-groups were implemented, and rfc2973 was written. However, a short while later I became the sole IS-IS programmer for that router vendor. I was able to reproduce the problem in the lab. I then realized what the issue was. A fix of 10 lines of extra code fixed the problem. No customer ever reported those meltdowns again. That fix was the real solution. Not writing another RFC. In the mean-time, we have an extra RFC, about mesh-groups. Every book and manual on IS-IS has to spent time explaining what mesh-groups are. Every vendor has to implement it. Even when nobody in the world is using it. Mesh-groups were a superfluous idea. What I (and many others) are saying is that we don't want to specify and implement unnecessary things. Even when nobody is using such a thing, it will live on forever. > What I see the TTZ does have benefit. Yes, TTZ and proxy-areas have benefit. Nobody is disagreeing. But what people don't like is the new concept of a zone. If you can abstract exactly one area into exactly one proxy-LSP, that is good enough for 99.9 % of cases. In OSPF it is harder to split or merge an area. In IS-IS it is a lot easier. So a network operator can design and change his areas first. And then implement proxy-areas as she/he wishes. Without much downtime. If we introduce the concept of a "zone", someone is going to have to explain that to everybody in the world who uses IS-IS. Have you ever taught a class on IS-IS to people who don't know routing protocols very well ? > I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run ? Adding stuff that nobody uses makes everything more complex. I know it seems as if the goal over the last 15 years was to make every thing more complex. So what's the problem with adding yet another RFC ? But I like simple things. henk. Tianran Zhou wrote on 2020-07-16 02:41: > > "Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol in > > the long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a zone, is > > strong enough to be worthwhile, imho." > > Your conclusion here seems very subjective. > What's the criterion the evaluate the benefit? What I see the TTZ does > have benefit. > I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run? > .... > > Tianran From nobody Thu Jul 16 03:19:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05BF83A07E2 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:19:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JE50MotiYp2L for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 989963A07E1 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 03:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D84CF888E097EF48F2DB; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:19:05 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:19:04 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:19:02 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:19:02 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Henk Smit CC: Huaimo Chen , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVtyxyMQlBqiq1UmyeWXZgtgNVKkDfssAgAHnQACAAI8hgIACHDCAgAFTHVCAAAK5AIAAnUnA Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:19:02 +0000 Message-ID: <36462a54b41548818e1811af6877c05d@huawei.com> References: , <8d0c8294b701eb8f78b7d8fe87c156c9@xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <8d0c8294b701eb8f78b7d8fe87c156c9@xs4all.nl> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.177] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:19:09 -0000 Hi Henk, Thanks very much for your long email. I fully agree with what you said on the criterion. This is generally always= correct.=20 But still you cannot score a draft with it. That means I can probably say most of the IETF RFCs has no use.=20 I can also list one hundred RFCs that is not implemented. Are you going to = obsolete them all? Who knows if they are useful in the future? If you find it no use, just not to implement it. How could it make your sys= tem complex? Best, Tianran -----Original Message----- From: Henk Smit [mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl]=20 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 4:46 PM To: Tianran Zhou Cc: Huaimo Chen ; lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hello Tianran, Warning, long email again. > What's the criterion to evaluate the benefit? As people have asked before, did any provider or enterprise ever use rfc809= 9 in their network ? As I wrote, one of my criteria is rfc1925. I like technology to be understa= ndable. I like protocols to be (relatively) easy to implement. The more unu= sed cruft there is, the further we get away from that goal. I'll give you an example. Did you, or your company ever implement rfc2973 ?= That's mesh-groups in IS-IS. I'm sure some customers put it on their wishlist. Did any provider or customer ever use it ? I asked this question at my last job, and nobody knew the answer. I suspect= nobody in the world ever used mesh-groups. Around the time I got in touch with IS-IS, in spring 1996, there was a prob= lem that was seen 2 of the 3 largest ISPs in the US (UUnet and iMCI). Both = networks melted because of IS-IS. All routers in their networks were 100% c= pu time running IS-IS, busy exchanging LSPs. While no progress was made. Th= e only solution was to reboot all routers in the backbone at the same time = (several hundred routers). This happened more than once in both networks. To relieve the burden of flooding, mesh-groups were implemented, and rfc297= 3 was written. However, a short while later I became the sole IS-IS program= mer for that router vendor. I was able to reproduce the problem in the lab. I then realized what the issue was. A fix of 10 lines of extra code fixed t= he problem. No customer ever reported those meltdowns again. That fix was t= he real solution. Not writing another RFC. In the mean-time, we have an extra RFC, about mesh-groups. Every book and manual on IS-IS has to spent time explaining what mesh-group= s are. Every vendor has to implement it. Even when nobody in the world is using it. Mesh-groups were a superfluous i= dea. What I (and many others) are saying is that we don't want to specify a= nd implement unnecessary things. Even when nobody is using such a thing, it will live on forever. > What I see the TTZ does have benefit. Yes, TTZ and proxy-areas have benefit. Nobody is disagreeing. But what people don't like is the new concept of a zone. If you can abstract exactly one area into exactly one proxy-LSP, that is go= od enough for 99.9 % of cases. In OSPF it is harder to split or merge an ar= ea. In IS-IS it is a lot easier. So a network operator can design and chang= e his areas first. And then implement proxy-areas as she/he wishes. Without= much downtime. If we introduce the concept of a "zone", someone is going to have to explai= n that to everybody in the world who uses IS-IS. Have you ever taught a class on IS-IS to people who don't know routing prot= ocols very well ? > I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run ? Adding stuff that nobody uses makes everything more complex. I know it seems as if the goal over the last 15 years was to make every thi= ng more complex. So what's the problem with adding yet another RFC ? But I like simple things. henk. Tianran Zhou wrote on 2020-07-16 02:41: > > "Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol=20 > > in the long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a=20 > > zone, is strong enough to be worthwhile, imho." >=20 > Your conclusion here seems very subjective. > What's the criterion the evaluate the benefit? What I see the TTZ does=20 > have benefit. > I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run? > .... >=20 > Tianran From nobody Thu Jul 16 04:54:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B763A0A01 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 04:54:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wwnJPxnqg70 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81263A09FC for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E6DB660F6C; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:54:12 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_34F5E47A-3CF1-4B5F-B33B-33187A86A506"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:54:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: <36462a54b41548818e1811af6877c05d@huawei.com> Cc: Christian Hopps , Henk Smit , "lsr@ietf.org" , Huaimo Chen To: Tianran Zhou References: <8d0c8294b701eb8f78b7d8fe87c156c9@xs4all.nl> <36462a54b41548818e1811af6877c05d@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:54:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_34F5E47A-3CF1-4B5F-B33B-33187A86A506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My comments about what the WG should be doing are "As WGChair", I'm not = commenting directly on TTZ, but on the broader comments/questions below. > On Jul 16, 2020, at 6:19 AM, Tianran Zhou = wrote: >=20 > Hi Henk, >=20 > Thanks very much for your long email. > I fully agree with what you said on the criterion. This is generally = always correct. > But still you cannot score a draft with it. > That means I can probably say most of the IETF RFCs has no use. > I can also list one hundred RFCs that is not implemented. This is not what we strive for in LSR. > Are you going to obsolete them all? No, but we as a WG can strive to not contribute to this problem. > Who knows if they are useful in the future? LSR is not a research WG or a technical journal. > If you find it no use, just not to implement it. How could it make = your system complex? This statement flies in the face of market realty. People who have to fill RFPs from prospective customers, knowing that = they are competing against other vendors filling those same RFPs out, = can tell you why you can't just "not implement RFCs" if you don't want = to, even when they will never actually be used by those same customers. = The short answer is: RFPs are very often not written by the engineers = that actually build and run the customer's networks; however, answers to = RFPs have a direct impact on which vendors products are purchased by the = customers. So lots of unused RFCs leads to lots of useless code being written to = win customers, which then leads to huge protocol code bases that are too = complex and fragile, as well as protocols that are hard to comprehend = and thus manage properly, and so ultimately destabalize the internet -- = we have failed at this point. This may be less of an issue with other WGs; however, the IGPs are a = *critical* part of the internet infrastructure, and they need to be = treated as such, and we should strive to do so. Thanks, Chris. >=20 > Best, > Tianran >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Henk Smit [mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl] > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 4:46 PM > To: Tianran Zhou > Cc: Huaimo Chen ; lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 >=20 > Hello Tianran, >=20 > Warning, long email again. >=20 >> What's the criterion to evaluate the benefit? >=20 > As people have asked before, did any provider or enterprise ever use = rfc8099 in their network ? >=20 > As I wrote, one of my criteria is rfc1925. I like technology to be = understandable. I like protocols to be (relatively) easy to implement. = The more unused cruft there is, the further we get away from that goal. >=20 >=20 > I'll give you an example. Did you, or your company ever implement = rfc2973 ? That's mesh-groups in IS-IS. > I'm sure some customers put it on their wishlist. > Did any provider or customer ever use it ? > I asked this question at my last job, and nobody knew the answer. I = suspect nobody in the world ever used mesh-groups. >=20 > Around the time I got in touch with IS-IS, in spring 1996, there was a = problem that was seen 2 of the 3 largest ISPs in the US (UUnet and = iMCI). Both networks melted because of IS-IS. All routers in their = networks were 100% cpu time running IS-IS, busy exchanging LSPs. While = no progress was made. The only solution was to reboot all routers in the = backbone at the same time (several hundred routers). > This happened more than once in both networks. >=20 > To relieve the burden of flooding, mesh-groups were implemented, and = rfc2973 was written. However, a short while later I became the sole = IS-IS programmer for that router vendor. I was able to reproduce the = problem in the lab. > I then realized what the issue was. A fix of 10 lines of extra code = fixed the problem. No customer ever reported those meltdowns again. That = fix was the real solution. > Not writing another RFC. >=20 > In the mean-time, we have an extra RFC, about mesh-groups. > Every book and manual on IS-IS has to spent time explaining what = mesh-groups are. Every vendor has to implement it. > Even when nobody in the world is using it. Mesh-groups were a = superfluous idea. What I (and many others) are saying is that we don't = want to specify and implement unnecessary things. > Even when nobody is using such a thing, it will live on forever. >=20 >> What I see the TTZ does have benefit. >=20 > Yes, TTZ and proxy-areas have benefit. Nobody is disagreeing. >=20 > But what people don't like is the new concept of a zone. > If you can abstract exactly one area into exactly one proxy-LSP, that = is good enough for 99.9 % of cases. In OSPF it is harder to split or = merge an area. In IS-IS it is a lot easier. So a network operator can = design and change his areas first. And then implement proxy-areas as = she/he wishes. Without much downtime. >=20 > If we introduce the concept of a "zone", someone is going to have to = explain that to everybody in the world who uses IS-IS. > Have you ever taught a class on IS-IS to people who don't know routing = protocols very well ? >=20 >> I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run ? >=20 > Adding stuff that nobody uses makes everything more complex. > I know it seems as if the goal over the last 15 years was to make = every thing more complex. So what's the problem with adding yet another = RFC ? >=20 > But I like simple things. >=20 > henk. >=20 >=20 > Tianran Zhou wrote on 2020-07-16 02:41: >=20 >>> "Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol >>> in the long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a >>> zone, is strong enough to be worthwhile, imho." >>=20 >> Your conclusion here seems very subjective. >> What's the criterion the evaluate the benefit? What I see the TTZ = does >> have benefit. >> I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run? >> .... >>=20 >> Tianran >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 --Apple-Mail=_34F5E47A-3CF1-4B5F-B33B-33187A86A506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8QP+MACgkQLh2DDte4 MCXbDQ//bH6W7pp41eJewwyCWQYADmkOv90lDdX1sqA8vDVgBjz/lEYHEF2cVR0r r2X1t0TR0RvPBPlI7WW4OtD6zarpB6U4UIdL9JqeGXDI4BeRrQvWwZyMCR3uXWO/ nHkPgwkoOXjcA1bzSzhZO/piCNM3dxEMV9FNVJN026u9H/V+LDyBDX2o0+eRwynl KxBUoYos0oGUhZb+LTfaePrapA3DhZaCWoGkwCll2+DpScJypZmbklCpQSOmbeAa PyEWdPLX+UGjAksHd6sG3oPc77GqHNRCZBufGwxZKS/khZYRqhljCpffh5I8xvZc 04A1VNgz/mgf7lGIaPYedWNWrMhMbtrGq5ZDIA0osrso9Pne6/g1FdoGTQQetMrQ 5XQVM4xMCba4KuIZyWW5raAIRtQz/AkOJ7B5sDluqGimZmNFOrncZ4upBv9Tnm0x wT3glMSfZOmwHDpviLEDkuiY3RAhY/As95gTlU7052e7m+TIMBuxsCVaMzObMAOU a18oS7JvAQeetLfvfL6atj8ehs76445LXhTlGDH3Jq60XU5LksgYELXmNqSslK90 2zjkTHa1Wpe81p3rtCUYS/h9B3oklDmpB5dZEyOZcB2IIeGBZtFqgN0bFjYQ4fLe vgG0PS3sgScqzzj+5qXONf6dUWLbkBE2cfpNOkNe8Vt8zcqyaEo= =TZXz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_34F5E47A-3CF1-4B5F-B33B-33187A86A506-- From nobody Thu Jul 16 08:20:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389133A0AA9 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR13MB311776F4A93AC0CD743E3A96F27F0MN2PR13MB3117namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9fada6d2-c16d-4bb8-eb95-08d829bcb4eb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Jul 2020 19:16:13.7276 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vqVpK3QzIrtrWIgR1JGPvttvAXsOVNaHa9Sc22kYLukjO7FK9pA5sKBe7v6KsZ74dEKWUT221KoA2CT4wC3LYg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB4103 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 19:16:21 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB311776F4A93AC0CD743E3A96F27F0MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, > Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms = of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Z= one, the two proposals are very similar. [HC]: It looks like the other way around. In 2013, IS-IS TTZ .00 draft des= cribes the mechanism of having a Zone DR (called TTZ-DR) to generate a sing= le LSP for representing the single node abstracted from the Zone. DR and Le= ader are just two different names of the same node. In 2018, Area Proxy .00= draft presents the mechanism of having an Area leader to generate a single= LSP representing the node abstracted from the Area. There are some big dif= ferences between IS-IS TTZ and Area Proxy even though they are similar. >I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experimen= tal are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB sca= lability across an IS-IS routing domain. [HC]: The three proposals (the two adopted as experimental recently and IS-= IS TTZ) are all very different even though they solve the same problem for = better LSDB scalability. It is would be reasonable and beneficial to allow = IS-IS TTZ to move forward also as experimental. >I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are = not required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a= description of the transition mechanisms. [HC]: It seems that reducing the service interruption, making operations to= be simple, and so on are expected by users in general. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Lsr on behalf of Uma Chunduri Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:38 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) Cc: lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Acee, In-line .. On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) > wrote: Speaking as WG member=85 See inline. From: Lsr > on behalf of = Uma Chunduri > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM To: Henk Smit > Cc: "lsr@ietf..org" = >, Huaimo Chen = > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk Smit > wrote: Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > more flexible and convenient to users. I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. I actually think this convenience is a downside. I actually think not having more configuration across the network to enabl= e a new feature is more useful even if you don't do this operation every single day (especially if you want to rol= l back). Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept of an area makes things only more complex. Agree in general. I would say this is no more complex than what has been adopted already or t= he slew of proposals we have been seeing here. I too think as some other said we should have ideally adopted only one prop= osal by merging whatever possible. As that is not the case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepte= d as WG experimental track, and given the interest/support on this particul= ar topic I would think it's reasonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as i= s done in OSPF. I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experiment= al are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB scal= ability across an IS-IS routing domain. You are right, of course. IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting a zone (i.= e., block) of an IS-IS area to a single node. RFC 8099 is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh. = So, afais, IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving netw= ork scalability. Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of= having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Zon= e, the two proposals are very similar. Thanks for pointing this; I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are n= ot required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a description o= f the transition mechanisms. I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages matter = for them or not matter much. Thank you! -- Uma C. Thanks, Acee -- Uma C. --_000_MN2PR13MB311776F4A93AC0CD743E3A96F27F0MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Acee,

> Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanis= ms of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Are= a/Zone, the two proposals are very similar.

[HC]:  It looks like the other way around. In 2013, IS-IS TTZ .00= draft describes the mechanism of having a Zone DR (called TTZ-DR) to gener= ate a single LSP for representing the single node abstracted from the Zone.= DR and Leader are just two different names of the same node. In 2018, Area Proxy .00 draft presents the mechanis= m of having an Area leader to generate a single LSP representing = the node abstracted from the Area. There are some big differences between&n= bsp;IS-IS TTZ and Area Proxy even though they are similar.

>I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as = experimental are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better= LSDB scalability across an IS-IS routing domain.

[HC]: The three proposals (the two a= dopted as expe= rimental recently and IS-IS TTZ) are all very different even though they solv= e the same problem for better LSDB scalability. It is would be reasonable and beneficial to allow IS-IS TTZ to move fo= rward also as experimental. 

>I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ a= re not required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries an= d a description of the transition mechanisms.

[HC]: It seems that reducing the service interruption, making operations to= be simple, and so on are expected by users in general. 

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@i= etf.org> on behalf of Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:38 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 
Acee,

In-line ..

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Ac= ee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

Speaking as WG member=85

 

See inline.

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> = on behalf of Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM
To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
Cc: "lsr@ietf= ..org" <lsr@i= etf.org>, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

 

 

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 a= t 5:22 AM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:

Huaimo Chen wrote on 2= 020-07-14 06:09:

>  2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any t= arget
> block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems=
> more flexible and convenient to users.

I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial.

I actually think this = convenience is a downside.

 

I actually think not&n= bsp; having more configuration across the network to enable a new feature i= s more useful even if 

you don't do this oper= ation every single day (especially if you want to roll back). <= u>

 

 

Link-state protocols a= re not easy to understand. And we already
have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things.
Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the
concept of an area makes things only more complex.

 

Agree in general.

 

I would say this is no= more complex than what has been adopted already or the slew of proposals w= e have been seeing here.

 

I too think as some ot= her said we should have ideally adopted only one proposal by merging w= hatever possible. 

As  that is not t= he case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepted as WG experimen= tal track, and given the interest/support on this particular topic

I would think it's rea= sonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as is done in OSPF.=

 

I think that the two proposals that have already b= een adopted as experimental are VERY different in the way they solve the pr= oblem of better LSDB scalability across an IS-IS routing domain.


You are right, of course. IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting= a zone (i.e., block) of an IS-IS area to a single node.

RFC 8099 is for abstracting a z= one of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh.  So, afais, IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC= 8099 regarding improving network scalability. 


Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the= Area Proxy mechanisms of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP = representing the Area/Zone, the two proposals are very similar.


Thanks for pointing this;
 

I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purporte= d advantages of TTZ are not required.

These advantages being arbitrary abstraction bound= aries and a description of the transition mechanisms.


I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages ma= tter for them or not matter much.

Thank you!

--
Uma C.
 

 

Thanks,
Acee

 

 

--

Uma C.

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 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BY5PR11MB4337666C4250672C83860F63C17F0BY5PR11MB4337namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7e683055-8ee2-4f38-1304-08d829d0a704 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Jul 2020 21:39:00.3124 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: helo6boRBQdrNbfe0euRvWzLh43kOzHh+aBO+gy2jd5eTAXGSpw07vIU93Pyqv5+SK7W91R0J+kFKZML+K053w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4022 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:39:23 -0000 --_000_BY5PR11MB4337666C4250672C83860F63C17F0BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Huaimo - I am not going to comment on the history issues - though I understand why t= hat is of significance to you. Otherwise, I don't think you are appreciating the key point many of us are = making - which is that we do not need to introduce a new concept "zone" (su= bset of an area). It is sufficient to operate on an area. "reducing the service interruption, making operations to be simple, a= nd so on" does not require introduction of zones. We can already do so using areas -= including merging/splitting of an area. The argument then against moving forward with both Area Proxy and TTZ is th= at they are redundant. Until you demonstrate something compelling which cannot be done with an are= a but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to introduce= zones to the protocol. Les From: Lsr On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:16 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) Cc: lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Acee, > Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms = of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Z= one, the two proposals are very similar. [HC]: It looks like the other way around. In 2013, IS-IS TTZ .00 draft des= cribes the mechanism of having a Zone DR (called TTZ-DR) to generate a sing= le LSP for representing the single node abstracted from the Zone. DR and Le= ader are just two different names of the same node. In 2018, Area Proxy .00= draft presents the mechanism of having an Area leader to generate a single= LSP representing the node abstracted from the Area. There are some big dif= ferences between IS-IS TTZ and Area Proxy even though they are similar. >I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experimen= tal are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB sca= lability across an IS-IS routing domain. [HC]: The three proposals (the two adopted as experimental recently and IS-= IS TTZ) are all very different even though they solve the same problem for = better LSDB scalability. It is would be reasonable and beneficial to allow = IS-IS TTZ to move forward also as experimental. >I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are = not required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a= description of the transition mechanisms. [HC]: It seems that reducing the service interruption, making operations to= be simple, and so on are expected by users in general. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Lsr > on behalf of = Uma Chunduri > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:38 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Acee, In-line .. On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) > wrote: Speaking as WG member... See inline. From: Lsr > on behalf of = Uma Chunduri > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM To: Henk Smit > Cc: "lsr@ietf...org" >, Huaimo Chen > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk Smit > wrote: Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > more flexible and convenient to users. I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. I actually think this convenience is a downside. I actually think not having more configuration across the network to enabl= e a new feature is more useful even if you don't do this operation every single day (especially if you want to rol= l back). Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept of an area makes things only more complex. Agree in general. I would say this is no more complex than what has been adopted already or t= he slew of proposals we have been seeing here. I too think as some other said we should have ideally adopted only one prop= osal by merging whatever possible. As that is not the case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepte= d as WG experimental track, and given the interest/support on this particul= ar topic I would think it's reasonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as i= s done in OSPF. I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experiment= al are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB scal= ability across an IS-IS routing domain. You are right, of course. IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting a zone (i.= e., block) of an IS-IS area to a single node. RFC 8099 is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh. = So, afais, IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving netw= ork scalability. Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of= having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Zon= e, the two proposals are very similar. Thanks for pointing this; I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are n= ot required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a description o= f the transition mechanisms. I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages matter = for them or not matter much. Thank you! -- Uma C. Thanks, Acee -- Uma C. --_000_BY5PR11MB4337666C4250672C83860F63C17F0BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Huaimo –

 

I am not going to comment on the history issues R= 11; though I understand why that is of significance to you.

 

Otherwise, I don’t think you are appreciating = the key point many of us are making – which is that we do not need to= introduce a new concept “zone” (subset of an area).=

It is sufficient to operate on an area. <= /p>

 

      “reducing the s= ervice interruption, making operations to be simple, and so on”<= /o:p>

 

does not require introduction of zones.  We can= already do so using areas – including merging/splitting of an area.<= o:p>

 

The argument then against moving forward with both A= rea Proxy and TTZ is that they are redundant.

 

Until you demonstrate something compelling which can= not be done with an area but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see w= hy we need to introduce zones to the protocol.

 

    Les

 

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:16 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Acee= ,

&n= bsp;

> Co= nversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of h= aving an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Zone,= the two proposals are very similar.

&n= bsp;

[HC]:&n= bsp; It looks like the other way around. In 2013, IS-IS TTZ .00 draft = describes the mechanism of having a Zone DR (called TTZ-DR) to generate a s= ingle LSP for representing the single node abstracted from the Zone. DR and Leader are just two different names of the same node= . In 2018, Area Proxy .00 draft presents the mechanism of having = an Area leader to generate a single LSP representing the node abstract= ed from the Area. There are some big differences between IS-IS TTZ and Area Proxy even though they are similar.

&n= bsp;

>I t= hink that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experimental = are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB scalabi= lity across an IS-IS routing domain.

&n= bsp;

[HC]: The three proposals (the two adopted as experi= mental recently and IS-IS TTZ) are all very different even though they= solve the same problem for better LSDB scalability. It is would be reasonable and beneficial&nb= sp;to allow IS-IS TTZ to move forward also as experimental. 

&n= bsp;

>I a= gree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are not = required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a des= cription of the transition mechanisms.

&n= bsp;

[HC]: I= t seems that reducing the service interruption, making operations to be sim= ple, and so on are expected by users in general. 

&n= bsp;

Best Re= gards,

Huaimo<= o:p>

From: Lsr <lsr= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:38 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@ci= sco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Acee,

 

In-line ..

 

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) = <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

Speaking as WG member…

 

See inline.

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org>= on behalf of Uma Chunduri <umac.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM
To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
Cc: "lsr@ietf= ...org" <lsr@= ietf.org>, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

 

 

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at = 5:22 AM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:

Huaimo Chen wrote on 202= 0-07-14 06:09:

>  2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any t= arget
> block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems=
> more flexible and convenient to users.

I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial.

I actually think this co= nvenience is a downside.

 

I actually think not&nbs= p; having more configuration across the network to enable a new feature is = more useful even if 

you don't do this operat= ion every single day (especially if you want to roll back). 

 

 

Link-state protocols are= not easy to understand. And we already
have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things.
Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the
concept of an area makes things only more complex.

 

Agree in general.

 

I would say this is no m= ore complex than what has been adopted already or the slew of proposals we = have been seeing here.

 

I too think as some othe= r said we should have ideally adopted only one proposal by merging wha= tever possible. 

As  that is not the= case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepted as WG experimenta= l track, and given the interest/support on this particular topic=

I would think it's reaso= nable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as is done in OSPF.

 

I think that the two proposals that have already be= en adopted as experimental are VERY different in the way they solve the pro= blem of better LSDB scalability across an IS-IS routing domain.<= /p>

 

You are right, of course. IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting a zone (i.e.= , block) of an IS-IS area to a single node.

RFC 80= 99 is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh.  = So, afais, IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving = network scalability. 

 

Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the = Area Proxy mechanisms of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP r= epresenting the Area/Zone, the two proposals are very similar.

 

Thanks for pointing this;

 

I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported= advantages of TTZ are not required.

These advantages being arbitrary abstraction bounda= ries and a description of the transition mechanisms.

 

I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if t= hese advantages matter for them or not matter much.

 

Thank you!

 

--

Uma C.

 

 

Thanks,
Acee

 

 

--

Uma C.

--_000_BY5PR11MB4337666C4250672C83860F63C17F0BY5PR11MB4337namp_-- From nobody Thu Jul 16 20:18:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C033A0FCE for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 20:18:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GSN0K122TOy5 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 20:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1003A3A0A55 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 20:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E456F4ED53167A138E85; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:18:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:18:15 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:18:12 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:18:12 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Christian Hopps CC: Henk Smit , "lsr@ietf.org" , "Huaimo Chen" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWVtyxyMQlBqiq1UmyeWXZgtgNVKkDfssAgAHnQACAAI8hgIACHDCAgAFTHVCAAAK5AIAAnUnA//+XUoCAAXgQ8A== Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 03:18:12 +0000 Message-ID: <9313fd8bb2d9457e9c78f1d8ccacb3de@huawei.com> References: <8d0c8294b701eb8f78b7d8fe87c156c9@xs4all.nl> <36462a54b41548818e1811af6877c05d@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.177] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 03:18:21 -0000 Thanks. I am really glad to understand the LSR chair's thoughts. Well OK. I understand LSR would like a high bar for IGP extension. But your comparison with " research WG or a technical journal " makes no se= nse. It's common sense. And your statement on the complexity twisted too many none engineer reasons= . I would like the IETF to be more pure on technique. Anyway, I respect the tradition of this WG. I just want to know if the WG request for interop and implementation report= for every draft? Thanks, Tianran -----Original Message----- From: Christian Hopps [mailto:chopps@chopps.org]=20 Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 7:54 PM To: Tianran Zhou Cc: Christian Hopps ; Henk Smit ; l= sr@ietf.org; Huaimo Chen Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ My comments about what the WG should be doing are "As WGChair", I'm not com= menting directly on TTZ, but on the broader comments/questions below. > On Jul 16, 2020, at 6:19 AM, Tianran Zhou wrote: >=20 > Hi Henk, >=20 > Thanks very much for your long email. > I fully agree with what you said on the criterion. This is generally alwa= ys correct. > But still you cannot score a draft with it. > That means I can probably say most of the IETF RFCs has no use. > I can also list one hundred RFCs that is not implemented. This is not what we strive for in LSR. > Are you going to obsolete them all? No, but we as a WG can strive to not contribute to this problem. > Who knows if they are useful in the future? LSR is not a research WG or a technical journal. > If you find it no use, just not to implement it. How could it make your s= ystem complex? This statement flies in the face of market realty. People who have to fill RFPs from prospective customers, knowing that they = are competing against other vendors filling those same RFPs out, can tell y= ou why you can't just "not implement RFCs" if you don't want to, even when = they will never actually be used by those same customers. The short answer = is: RFPs are very often not written by the engineers that actually build an= d run the customer's networks; however, answers to RFPs have a direct impac= t on which vendors products are purchased by the customers. So lots of unused RFCs leads to lots of useless code being written to win c= ustomers, which then leads to huge protocol code bases that are too complex= and fragile, as well as protocols that are hard to comprehend and thus man= age properly, and so ultimately destabalize the internet -- we have failed = at this point. This may be less of an issue with other WGs; however, the IGPs are a *criti= cal* part of the internet infrastructure, and they need to be treated as su= ch, and we should strive to do so. Thanks, Chris. >=20 > Best, > Tianran >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Henk Smit [mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl] > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 4:46 PM > To: Tianran Zhou > Cc: Huaimo Chen ; lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 >=20 > Hello Tianran, >=20 > Warning, long email again. >=20 >> What's the criterion to evaluate the benefit? >=20 > As people have asked before, did any provider or enterprise ever use rfc8= 099 in their network ? >=20 > As I wrote, one of my criteria is rfc1925. I like technology to be unders= tandable. I like protocols to be (relatively) easy to implement. The more u= nused cruft there is, the further we get away from that goal. >=20 >=20 > I'll give you an example. Did you, or your company ever implement rfc2973= ? That's mesh-groups in IS-IS. > I'm sure some customers put it on their wishlist. > Did any provider or customer ever use it ? > I asked this question at my last job, and nobody knew the answer. I suspe= ct nobody in the world ever used mesh-groups. >=20 > Around the time I got in touch with IS-IS, in spring 1996, there was a pr= oblem that was seen 2 of the 3 largest ISPs in the US (UUnet and iMCI). Bot= h networks melted because of IS-IS. All routers in their networks were 100%= cpu time running IS-IS, busy exchanging LSPs. While no progress was made. = The only solution was to reboot all routers in the backbone at the same tim= e (several hundred routers). > This happened more than once in both networks. >=20 > To relieve the burden of flooding, mesh-groups were implemented, and rfc2= 973 was written. However, a short while later I became the sole IS-IS progr= ammer for that router vendor. I was able to reproduce the problem in the la= b. > I then realized what the issue was. A fix of 10 lines of extra code fixed= the problem. No customer ever reported those meltdowns again. That fix was= the real solution. > Not writing another RFC. >=20 > In the mean-time, we have an extra RFC, about mesh-groups. > Every book and manual on IS-IS has to spent time explaining what mesh-gro= ups are. Every vendor has to implement it. > Even when nobody in the world is using it. Mesh-groups were a superfluous= idea. What I (and many others) are saying is that we don't want to specify= and implement unnecessary things. > Even when nobody is using such a thing, it will live on forever. >=20 >> What I see the TTZ does have benefit. >=20 > Yes, TTZ and proxy-areas have benefit. Nobody is disagreeing. >=20 > But what people don't like is the new concept of a zone. > If you can abstract exactly one area into exactly one proxy-LSP, that is = good enough for 99.9 % of cases. In OSPF it is harder to split or merge an = area. In IS-IS it is a lot easier. So a network operator can design and cha= nge his areas first. And then implement proxy-areas as she/he wishes. Witho= ut much downtime. >=20 > If we introduce the concept of a "zone", someone is going to have to expl= ain that to everybody in the world who uses IS-IS. > Have you ever taught a class on IS-IS to people who don't know routing pr= otocols very well ? >=20 >> I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run ? >=20 > Adding stuff that nobody uses makes everything more complex. > I know it seems as if the goal over the last 15 years was to make every t= hing more complex. So what's the problem with adding yet another RFC ? >=20 > But I like simple things. >=20 > henk. >=20 >=20 > Tianran Zhou wrote on 2020-07-16 02:41: >=20 >>> "Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol=20 >>> in the long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a=20 >>> zone, is strong enough to be worthwhile, imho." >>=20 >> Your conclusion here seems very subjective. >> What's the criterion the evaluate the benefit? What I see the TTZ=20 >> does have benefit. >> I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run? >> .... >>=20 >> Tianran >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 16 21:30:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947363A10DF; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVtK5mcPF-QW; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2493B3A1173; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id c16so9125441ioi.9; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:30:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=W4rB8qJLufcV9Qrbm/CQxDDF5Z76zneN/cfH8XzxZ7M=; b=Dj2X+IGQ1YwaIu6mtsId0QrVJ+ZLQewAGNkUQP4uGkaKxclgRizjl6UixjyIlMTcgj pqDIpLV6hS3MdCUOPwWduln3OHQXI74eKwjWvm8werIx8KTPm7vv1YbWELb1RICjsKmN wSVs2ebQxHOuZZ827vnKTFIYyGBVqJVViSnxMVazsMbaHDi3lu77vCX4s02w4sX52vqe YdSTwfihV6tVcrGP+d8PGy2O1oyC7LnrNECekxtaFgJwnynVCZ0sI3EGKHMY2tWnUdNp o8Gx7LLkn6FEWzAaUJtGOvxHc4GYgpaxBEXjlcZ/9MXxaUw2f9SpNmNBylgQqXpAaIhA 7uPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=W4rB8qJLufcV9Qrbm/CQxDDF5Z76zneN/cfH8XzxZ7M=; b=aeByOxhU1ta6R2gRnlXdt0fa0LCq7nQ+s6sxR/DH7LAjQELQMRVj2Gxt2OiVchsGAb NiRI1ZS92aJgEkRqkZiFOpKQ58Zaqn/Y79dLIt22OKCrVkDbMXJTXnGRAMeI9gnLgzZ9 VK6iIGhO9CJI3NKaBt85Jm+GnjtQL7k1kfhL1E7EMw+nyll9hm+50XbV2FynpnwyQNFu UeSit1AOGxX88Y6M27QNiCX+YfjP/04MuTSynPhr05Vb6QO2ZuVQMq7x5bvn3h6apicL WGRynFq/m0NhsiYpFRMe+92wlHHSdwhE3CgtK0l4917ZBUEHEzsLdIpP8wq5O8FZYuA9 uc4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MCHL6zNWvYgb/zIhvBz8j2djhUcNzb1SzzPVBsmVY42HpG450 KlbddXWYR9IwUhxOL3j8I5NKNJOcqnv5UR9Dy7UDwsw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz3dz1jmS50WvBDzWypXaqgDSP+SoyN853bD8G/KEJgtuECx06CBpOhgYA6RQbrd96srt7+0SvotaeSc3s8qpk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1785:: with SMTP id y5mr7884193iox.62.1594960218078; Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:30:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Yingzhen Qu Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 21:30:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: lsr@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003ac7b305aa9b9d00" Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] LSR IETF 108 agenda posted X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:30:21 -0000 --0000000000003ac7b305aa9b9d00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, The draft agenda has been posted: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/materials/agenda-108-lsr-00.html Please let me know if you have any questions or if we missed anything. Presenters, We have a packed schedule, so please prepare your presentation accordingly. Please email me your slides when ready. Thanks, Yingzhen --0000000000003ac7b305aa9b9d00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

<= div dir=3D"ltr">The draft agenda has been posted:
https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/materials/agenda-108-lsr-00.html

Please let me know if you have any questions or if we= missed anything.

Presenters,

=
We have a packed schedule, so please prepare your presentation accordi= ngly. Please email me your slides when ready.

= Thanks,
Yingzhen
--0000000000003ac7b305aa9b9d00-- From nobody Fri Jul 17 04:09:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440593A0A19 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:09:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cN8AV-pjgmBd for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C8D3A0A16 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9276760F75; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:09:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: <754BAB14-0847-4244-A2E4-B7D4F58B04BE@chopps.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_827B8D96-8914-4E69-B584-6EAD71DAE75F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 07:09:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: <9313fd8bb2d9457e9c78f1d8ccacb3de@huawei.com> Cc: Christian Hopps , "lsr@ietf.org" , Huaimo Chen , Henk Smit To: Tianran Zhou References: <8d0c8294b701eb8f78b7d8fe87c156c9@xs4all.nl> <36462a54b41548818e1811af6877c05d@huawei.com> <9313fd8bb2d9457e9c78f1d8ccacb3de@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:09:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_827B8D96-8914-4E69-B584-6EAD71DAE75F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jul 16, 2020, at 11:18 PM, Tianran Zhou = wrote: >=20 > Thanks. I am really glad to understand the LSR chair's thoughts. > Well OK. I understand LSR would like a high bar for IGP extension. > But your comparison with " research WG or a technical journal " makes = no sense. It's common sense. > And your statement on the complexity twisted too many none engineer = reasons. > I would like the IETF to be more pure on technique. [As a general IETF participant] I believe we all would like this, but real-world dynamics impose = none-the-less. > Anyway, I respect the tradition of this WG. > I just want to know if the WG request for interop and implementation = report for every draft? [chair hat] We always prefer to have this. We do not always get it, = unfortunately. Thanks, Chris. >=20 > Thanks, > Tianran >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Hopps [mailto:chopps@chopps.org] > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 7:54 PM > To: Tianran Zhou > Cc: Christian Hopps ; Henk Smit = ; lsr@ietf.org; Huaimo Chen = > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >=20 > My comments about what the WG should be doing are "As WGChair", I'm = not commenting directly on TTZ, but on the broader comments/questions = below. >=20 >> On Jul 16, 2020, at 6:19 AM, Tianran Zhou = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Henk, >>=20 >> Thanks very much for your long email. >> I fully agree with what you said on the criterion. This is generally = always correct. >> But still you cannot score a draft with it. >> That means I can probably say most of the IETF RFCs has no use. >> I can also list one hundred RFCs that is not implemented. >=20 > This is not what we strive for in LSR. >=20 >> Are you going to obsolete them all? >=20 > No, but we as a WG can strive to not contribute to this problem. >=20 >> Who knows if they are useful in the future? >=20 > LSR is not a research WG or a technical journal. >=20 >> If you find it no use, just not to implement it. How could it make = your system complex? >=20 > This statement flies in the face of market realty. >=20 > People who have to fill RFPs from prospective customers, knowing that = they are competing against other vendors filling those same RFPs out, = can tell you why you can't just "not implement RFCs" if you don't want = to, even when they will never actually be used by those same customers. = The short answer is: RFPs are very often not written by the engineers = that actually build and run the customer's networks; however, answers to = RFPs have a direct impact on which vendors products are purchased by the = customers. >=20 > So lots of unused RFCs leads to lots of useless code being written to = win customers, which then leads to huge protocol code bases that are too = complex and fragile, as well as protocols that are hard to comprehend = and thus manage properly, and so ultimately destabalize the internet -- = we have failed at this point. >=20 > This may be less of an issue with other WGs; however, the IGPs are a = *critical* part of the internet infrastructure, and they need to be = treated as such, and we should strive to do so. >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. >=20 >>=20 >> Best, >> Tianran >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Henk Smit [mailto:henk.ietf@xs4all.nl] >> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 4:46 PM >> To: Tianran Zhou >> Cc: Huaimo Chen ; lsr@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ >>=20 >>=20 >> Hello Tianran, >>=20 >> Warning, long email again. >>=20 >>> What's the criterion to evaluate the benefit? >>=20 >> As people have asked before, did any provider or enterprise ever use = rfc8099 in their network ? >>=20 >> As I wrote, one of my criteria is rfc1925. I like technology to be = understandable. I like protocols to be (relatively) easy to implement. = The more unused cruft there is, the further we get away from that goal. >>=20 >>=20 >> I'll give you an example. Did you, or your company ever implement = rfc2973 ? That's mesh-groups in IS-IS. >> I'm sure some customers put it on their wishlist. >> Did any provider or customer ever use it ? >> I asked this question at my last job, and nobody knew the answer. I = suspect nobody in the world ever used mesh-groups. >>=20 >> Around the time I got in touch with IS-IS, in spring 1996, there was = a problem that was seen 2 of the 3 largest ISPs in the US (UUnet and = iMCI). Both networks melted because of IS-IS. All routers in their = networks were 100% cpu time running IS-IS, busy exchanging LSPs. While = no progress was made. The only solution was to reboot all routers in the = backbone at the same time (several hundred routers). >> This happened more than once in both networks. >>=20 >> To relieve the burden of flooding, mesh-groups were implemented, and = rfc2973 was written. However, a short while later I became the sole = IS-IS programmer for that router vendor. I was able to reproduce the = problem in the lab. >> I then realized what the issue was. A fix of 10 lines of extra code = fixed the problem. No customer ever reported those meltdowns again. That = fix was the real solution. >> Not writing another RFC. >>=20 >> In the mean-time, we have an extra RFC, about mesh-groups. >> Every book and manual on IS-IS has to spent time explaining what = mesh-groups are. Every vendor has to implement it. >> Even when nobody in the world is using it. Mesh-groups were a = superfluous idea. What I (and many others) are saying is that we don't = want to specify and implement unnecessary things. >> Even when nobody is using such a thing, it will live on forever. >>=20 >>> What I see the TTZ does have benefit. >>=20 >> Yes, TTZ and proxy-areas have benefit. Nobody is disagreeing. >>=20 >> But what people don't like is the new concept of a zone. >> If you can abstract exactly one area into exactly one proxy-LSP, that = is good enough for 99.9 % of cases. In OSPF it is harder to split or = merge an area. In IS-IS it is a lot easier. So a network operator can = design and change his areas first. And then implement proxy-areas as = she/he wishes. Without much downtime. >>=20 >> If we introduce the concept of a "zone", someone is going to have to = explain that to everybody in the world who uses IS-IS. >> Have you ever taught a class on IS-IS to people who don't know = routing protocols very well ? >>=20 >>> I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run ? >>=20 >> Adding stuff that nobody uses makes everything more complex. >> I know it seems as if the goal over the last 15 years was to make = every thing more complex. So what's the problem with adding yet another = RFC ? >>=20 >> But I like simple things. >>=20 >> henk. >>=20 >>=20 >> Tianran Zhou wrote on 2020-07-16 02:41: >>=20 >>>> "Adding a new concept, with very little benefit, hurts the protocol >>>> in the long run. The ability to abstract an area, and not also a >>>> zone, is strong enough to be worthwhile, imho." >>>=20 >>> Your conclusion here seems very subjective. >>> What's the criterion the evaluate the benefit? What I see the TTZ >>> does have benefit. >>> I am also wandering how it hurts the protocol in the long run? >>> .... >>>=20 >>> Tianran >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 --Apple-Mail=_827B8D96-8914-4E69-B584-6EAD71DAE75F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8RhtoACgkQLh2DDte4 MCXnaxAAosbn4XYQKrcbcU5Kh06Qe4g0NjJbae2bp9tMNqv1t7kI3FZkAecIMcz9 Yw/M4UHE+X/kvTDr/A1PjHibDxkM/9WhakWxDB9k+JwP05QIidhdKJlz1cPTRQhk Cyf1aiDh5SC0KElIXdjQTPBO2fIi7MzZgklb/NwReFE1gZuNwEjmaBLDgJlMfvTR 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(2603:10b6:208:13a::20) by MN2PR13MB3007.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:153::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3195.10; Sat, 18 Jul 2020 01:47:18 +0000 Received: from MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::bd0d:e70d:94e5:81e7]) by MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::bd0d:e70d:94e5:81e7%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3195.018; Sat, 18 Jul 2020 01:47:18 +0000 From: Huaimo Chen To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" CC: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Thread-Index: AQHWRejsDz5QFhQU9kCBa5hsczcb0qkBLZGAgAL5PgCAAeagYIAAhp9ggAIlUYCAAEt8gP//wwKAgABJz4CAAZga8YAAOY0ggAHPPpI= Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 01:47:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: , , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none 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x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR13MB3117037F3FFE029C09DD1C7DF27D0MN2PR13MB3117namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR13MB3117.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7375c62b-5978-4619-e5a0-08d82abc8123 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2020 01:47:17.9747 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0P6sJ+AbrD8jdAMtHGGlzLV1NtPphgXSOX7dkhWQq/d2+8rzUEgrPbMdYE5K1CPxhjDmYHCu83dv1thMOQCzfQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR13MB3007 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 01:47:23 -0000 --_000_MN2PR13MB3117037F3FFE029C09DD1C7DF27D0MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Les, > =93reducing the service interruption, making operations to be simple,= and so on=94 does not require introduction of zones. We can already do so using areas = =96 including merging/splitting of an area. [HC]: Smooth merging/splitting of an area seems not reduce the service inte= rruption while Area Proxy is abstracting an existing IS-IS area to a single= node because the adjacency ups and downs. IS-IS TTZ seems reduce the servi= ce interruption while it is abstracting a zone to a single node since it pr= ovides a smooth transferring from a zone to the single node. In addition, o= perations on IS-IS TTZ for abstracting a zone to a single node seems simple= r than creating a new L1 area (through merging/splitting of an area in some= cases) and abstracting the L1 area to a single node. > Until you demonstrate something compelling which cannot be done with an a= rea but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to introdu= ce zones to the protocol. [HC]: It seems that =93reducing the service interruption, making operations= to be simpler" provided by IS-IS TTZ with a zone should be compelling enou= gh. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 5:39 PM To: Huaimo Chen ; Acee Lindem (acee) Cc: lsr@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Huaimo =96 I am not going to comment on the history issues =96 though I understand why= that is of significance to you. Otherwise, I don=92t think you are appreciating the key point many of us ar= e making =96 which is that we do not need to introduce a new concept =93zon= e=94 (subset of an area). It is sufficient to operate on an area. =93reducing the service interruption, making operations to be simple,= and so on=94 does not require introduction of zones. We can already do so using areas = =96 including merging/splitting of an area. The argument then against moving forward with both Area Proxy and TTZ is th= at they are redundant. Until you demonstrate something compelling which cannot be done with an are= a but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to introduce= zones to the protocol. Les From: Lsr On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:16 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) Cc: lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Hi Acee, > Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms = of having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Z= one, the two proposals are very similar. [HC]: It looks like the other way around. In 2013, IS-IS TTZ .00 draft des= cribes the mechanism of having a Zone DR (called TTZ-DR) to generate a sing= le LSP for representing the single node abstracted from the Zone. DR and Le= ader are just two different names of the same node. In 2018, Area Proxy .00= draft presents the mechanism of having an Area leader to generate a single= LSP representing the node abstracted from the Area. There are some big dif= ferences between IS-IS TTZ and Area Proxy even though they are similar. >I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experimen= tal are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB sca= lability across an IS-IS routing domain. [HC]: The three proposals (the two adopted as experimental recently and IS-= IS TTZ) are all very different even though they solve the same problem for = better LSDB scalability. It is would be reasonable and beneficial to allow = IS-IS TTZ to move forward also as experimental. >I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are = not required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a= description of the transition mechanisms. [HC]: It seems that reducing the service interruption, making operations to= be simple, and so on are expected by users in general. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: Lsr > on behalf of = Uma Chunduri > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:38 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ Acee, In-line .. On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) > wrote: Speaking as WG member=85 See inline. From: Lsr > on behalf of = Uma Chunduri > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM To: Henk Smit > Cc: "lsr@ietf...org" >, Huaimo Chen > Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk Smit > wrote: Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09: > 2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any target > block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems > more flexible and convenient to users. I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial. I actually think this convenience is a downside. I actually think not having more configuration across the network to enabl= e a new feature is more useful even if you don't do this operation every single day (especially if you want to rol= l back). Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things. Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the concept of an area makes things only more complex. Agree in general. I would say this is no more complex than what has been adopted already or t= he slew of proposals we have been seeing here. I too think as some other said we should have ideally adopted only one prop= osal by merging whatever possible. As that is not the case and 2 parallel proposals have already been accepte= d as WG experimental track, and given the interest/support on this particul= ar topic I would think it's reasonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as i= s done in OSPF. I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experiment= al are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB scal= ability across an IS-IS routing domain. You are right, of course. IS-IS TTZ draft focuses on abstracting a zone (i.= e., block) of an IS-IS area to a single node. RFC 8099 is for abstracting a zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh. = So, afais, IS-IS TTZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving netw= ork scalability. Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of= having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Zon= e, the two proposals are very similar. Thanks for pointing this; I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are n= ot required. These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a description o= f the transition mechanisms. I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages matter = for them or not matter much. Thank you! -- Uma C. Thanks, Acee -- Uma C. --_000_MN2PR13MB3117037F3FFE029C09DD1C7DF27D0MN2PR13MB3117namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Les,

    > =93reducing the service interruption, making operations = to be simple, and so on=94

 does not require introduction of zones.  We can = already do so using areas =96 including merging/splitting of an area.


[HC]: Smooth merging/splitting of an area seems not reduce the service inte= rruption while Area Proxy is abstracting an existing IS-IS area to a single= node because the adjacency ups and downs. IS-IS TTZ seems reduce the servi= ce interruption while it is abstracting a zone to a single node since it provides a smooth transferring from a zon= e to the single node. In addition, operations on IS-IS TTZ for abstracting = a zone to a single node seems simpler than creating a new L1 area (through = merging/splitting of an area in some cases) and abstracting the L1 area to a single node.

> Until you demonstrate something compelling which cannot be = done with an area but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to introduce zones to the protocol= .

[HC]: It seems that = =93reducing the service interruption, making operations to be simpler" provided b= y IS-IS TTZ with a zone should be compelling enough.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: Les Ginsberg (ginsber= g) <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 5:39 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; Acee Lindem (acee= ) <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ
 

Huaimo =96

 

I am not going to comment on the history issues =96 though I understand why= that is of significance to you.

 

Otherwise, I don=92t think you are appreciating the key point many of us ar= e making =96 which is that we do not need to introduce a new concept =93zon= e=94 (subset of an area).

It is sufficient to operate on an area.

 

      =93reducing the service interruption, making= operations to be simple, and so on=94

 

does not require introduction of zones.  We can already do so using ar= eas =96 including merging/splitting of an area.

 

The argument then against moving forward with both Area Proxy and TTZ is th= at they are redundant.

 

Until you demonstrate something compelling which cannot be done with an are= a but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to introduce= zones to the protocol.

 

    Les

 

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Huaimo Ch= en
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:16 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Hi Acee,

 

> Conversely, now that the= IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of having an Area/Zone lea= der generate a single LSP representing the Area/Zone, the two proposals are= very similar.

 

[HC]:  It looks lik= e the other way around. In 2013, IS-IS TTZ .00 draft describes the mechanis= m of having a Zone DR (called TTZ-DR) to generate a single LSP for represen= ting the single node abstracted from the Zone. DR and Leader are just two different names of the same node. In 2018, = ;Area Proxy .00 draft presents the mechanism of having an Area leader = to generate a single LSP representing the node abstracted from the Are= a. There are some big differences between IS-IS TTZ and Area Proxy even though they are similar.

 

>I think that the two prop= osals that have already been adopted as experimental are VERY different in = the way they solve the problem of better LSDB scalability across an IS-IS r= outing domain.

 

[HC]: The three proposals (the two adopted as experimental recently an= d IS-IS TTZ) are all very different even though they solve the same problem= for better LSDB scalability. It is would be reasonable and beneficial&n= bsp;to allow IS-IS TTZ to move forward also as experimental. 

 

>I agree with Henk, Les, a= nd John that the purported advantages of TTZ are not required. These advant= ages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a description of the transi= tion mechanisms.

 

[HC]: It seems that reducing = the service interruption, making operations to be simple, and so on are exp= ected by users in general. 

 

Best Regards,

Huaimo

From:= Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org&g= t; on behalf of Uma Chunduri <uma= c.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:38 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@ci= sco.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

Acee,

 

In-line ..

 

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:14 AM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

Speaking as WG member=85

 

See inline.

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Uma C= hunduri <umac.i= etf@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM
To: Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl>
Cc: "lsr@ietf= ...org" <lsr@= ietf.org>, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ

 

 

 

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:22 AM Henk Smit <henk.ietf@xs4all.nl> wrote:

Huaimo Chen wrote on 2020-07-14 06:09:

>  2). IS-IS TTZ abstracts a zone to a single node. A zone is any t= arget
> block or piece of an IS-IS area, which is to be abstracted. This seems=
> more flexible and convenient to users.

I don't agree that this convenience is really beneficial.

I actually think this convenience is a downside.

 

I actually think not  having more configuration across the network to = enable a new feature is more useful even if 

you don't do this operation every single day (especially if you want to rol= l back). 

 

 

Link-state protocols are not easy to understand. And we already
have the misfortune that IS-IS and OSPF use different names for things.
Adding the new concept of a "zone", while we already have the
concept of an area makes things only more complex.

 

Agree in general.

 

I would say this is no more complex than what has been adopted already or t= he slew of proposals we have been seeing here.

 

I too think as some other said we should have ideally adopted only one= proposal by merging whatever possible. 

As  that is not the case and 2 parallel proposals have already been ac= cepted as WG experimental track, and given the interest/support on this par= ticular topic

I would think it's reasonable to continue this experiment in IS-IS too as i= s done in OSPF.

 

I think that the two proposals that have already been adopted as experiment= al are VERY different in the way they solve the problem of better LSDB scal= ability across an IS-IS routing domain.

 

You are right, of course.  RFC 8099 is for abstracting a= zone of an OSPF area to its edges full mesh.  So, afais, IS-IS T= TZ is much better than RFC 8099 regarding improving network scalability. 

 

Conversely, now that the IS-IS TTZ has adopted the Area Proxy mechanisms of= having an Area/Zone leader generate a single LSP representing the Area/Zon= e, the two proposals are very similar.

 

Thanks for pointing this;

 

I agree with Henk, Les, and John that the purported advantages of TTZ are n= ot required.

These advantages being arbitrary abstraction boundaries and a description o= f the transition mechanisms.

 

I would leave this to folks who want to deploy, if these advantages matter = for them or not matter much.

 

Thank you!

 

--

Uma C.

 

 

Thanks,
Acee

 

 

--

Uma C.

--_000_MN2PR13MB3117037F3FFE029C09DD1C7DF27D0MN2PR13MB3117namp_-- From nobody Fri Jul 17 19:46:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04B33A0869 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k70xVJiKfCXn for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x544.google.com (mail-pg1-x544.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::544]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E5443A0865 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x544.google.com with SMTP id m22so7513434pgv.9 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Y0JeVMSlK8HzdoqOPevgJCWNpBn6MerxY5erZ6SieDQ=; b=b7C8me77agQJozI9Phg6GRgt6okt+wSqU+biuawBNleZ+GMjeJFy+A2VeH0gadKbVT EY/x9M9llMsVw/Wc8s1a4wOXJVGiwYEgK76L8gi38E9aLn+cus1XVitFTeujERhyuCpY 9YDIOvb33Efm2FmRprtnxFWOEVS6l99BP1Z52YT7Y721g0RMGFE3wBtWjVSLLl845Q8B NCZbTzImx4+0dttOIybw8f2RpgaILPU7nJQcvVdzzfefLU/R6xMXJBPbwk1oI1dbi0Hb b9TPivln3CtFSZxtJc4hUtalGlCv5oGQGvNHozLlWsLKuqiRrCBMWTWkYjpUNyP41TUx bBiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Y0JeVMSlK8HzdoqOPevgJCWNpBn6MerxY5erZ6SieDQ=; b=o0NudX4v+U16aEF0y3/j3COF43qM60StZkWoug19KXp1DnMc1upuxUlUbitcX/fVXG 6ajEPfdpyXYLRkAc+n3oSZJaLlVo+pEL48pmpY+f1An+rJ3w8INKsd69GEw5MsXBHJzx 3Nl0jdWWjA6B26SRnreQlSv2ZG4PXC7FQuucfNLiJP8RL2hiFSwY3QDxdEMK98rlYnbS 8b12lUQeoeetp0AuyE9FNuTxFhFqoDEtQjEdQ1A5mQtgsrZ6UGFAMQcFEkCwBNKJM9kr +As3thRxu5W11qSoo2lnB/TIb81uUeaftdTwlv6FpsU0zjFeS/TsfMzBb9ANP8ugbUVs pGSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530IJh+rO60At3kNpqgmuYHTYi1sDUioV0lQDkda/ohekr2JDGBP 3iG+BCsq256fCmc2aj7KtEA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypStpzIBv3K0jnaXthlFGKhwJphhwREuAVh5rm1aSh1QXX3pKnd78O3gOcjWSWjYl0MlMfug== X-Received: by 2002:a65:620f:: with SMTP id d15mr10721389pgv.270.1595040384621; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.84.163] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d5sm3872285pju.15.2020.07.17.19.46.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: <751770C5-F1E0-48D5-8299-6271AF57B22E@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4F055775-0A01-4CB1-BBDB-ED37E7297161" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:46:22 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Les Ginsberg , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "lsr@ietf.org" To: Huaimo Chen References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Request WG adoption of TTZ X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 02:46:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4F055775-0A01-4CB1-BBDB-ED37E7297161 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Huaimo, > > =E2=80=9Creducing the service interruption, making operations to = be simple, and so on=E2=80=9D > does not require introduction of zones. We can already do so using = areas =E2=80=93 including merging/splitting of an area. >=20 > [HC]: Smooth merging/splitting of an area seems not reduce the service = interruption while Area Proxy is abstracting an existing IS-IS area to a = single node because the adjacency ups and downs. IS-IS TTZ seems reduce = the service interruption while it is abstracting a zone to a single node = since it provides a smooth transferring from a zone to the single node. = In addition, operations on IS-IS TTZ for abstracting a zone to a single = node seems simpler than creating a new L1 area (through = merging/splitting of an area in some cases) and abstracting the L1 area = to a single node. >=20 > > Until you demonstrate something compelling which cannot be done with = an area but can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to = introduce zones to the protocol.. >=20 > [HC]: It seems that =E2=80=9Creducing the service interruption, making = operations to be simpler" provided by IS-IS TTZ with a zone should be = compelling enough. >=20 My apologies if this comes off as too preachy, but perhaps it will help = if we are a bit more explicit about out thinking in case language is = gettiing in the way.=20 Engineering is all about trade-offs. With everything that we design = there are benefits (hopefully) and costs (hopefully obvious). In any = design, we want the benefits to outweigh the costs. Unfortunately, the = evaluation of those benefits and costs are subjective.=20 You=E2=80=99ve just seen Area Proxy go through a major revision because = some of us felt that the costs (a couple of extra TLV code points) were = too high. Some of us disagree. ;-) No one is suggesting that the zone concept has no value. No one is = saying that smooth transitions have no value. It=E2=80=99s very clear = that they do. If we could do that with zero costs, we certainly would. = However, the costs are non-zero in additional complexity and additional = code. What we=E2=80=99re trying to tell you is that in our humble opnion, the = tradeoff isn=E2=80=99t in favor of TTZ. The costs are higher than the = benefits. There is no definitive right answer in subjective situations. We, as a = community, have to come to rough consensus. Frequently to get there, = there have to be compromises and tough decisions. Regards, Tony --Apple-Mail=_4F055775-0A01-4CB1-BBDB-ED37E7297161 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Huaimo,

  =   > =E2=80=9Creducing the service interruption, making = operations to be simple, and so = on=E2=80=9D
 does = not require introduction of zones.  We can already do so using = areas =E2=80=93 including merging/splitting of an area.

[HC]: = Smooth merging/splitting of an area seems not reduce the service = interruption while Area Proxy is abstracting an existing IS-IS area to a = single node because the adjacency ups and downs. IS-IS TTZ seems reduce = the service interruption while it is abstracting a zone to a single node = since it provides a smooth transferring from a zone to the single node. = In addition, operations on IS-IS TTZ for abstracting a zone to a single = node seems simpler than creating a new L1 area (through = merging/splitting of an area in some cases) and abstracting the L1 area = to a single node.

> Until you = demonstrate something compelling which cannot be done with an area but = can be done with a zone, I simply do not see why we need to introduce = zones to the protocol..

[HC]: It seems = that =E2=80=9Creducing the service interruption, = making operations to be simpler" provided by IS-IS TTZ with a zone = should be compelling enough.



My apologies if this comes off as too = preachy, but perhaps it will help if we are a bit more explicit about = out thinking in case language is gettiing in the way. 


Engineering is all about trade-offs. With everything that we = design there are benefits (hopefully) and costs (hopefully obvious). In = any design, we want the benefits to outweigh the costs. Unfortunately, = the evaluation of those benefits and costs are = subjective. 

You=E2=80=99ve just seen Area Proxy go through a major = revision because some of us felt that the costs (a couple of extra TLV = code points) were too high.  Some of us disagree. ;-)

No one is suggesting = that the zone concept has no value. No one is saying that smooth = transitions have no value. It=E2=80=99s very clear that they do. =  If we could do that with zero costs, we certainly would. However, = the costs are non-zero in additional complexity and additional = code.

What = we=E2=80=99re trying to tell you is that in our humble opnion, the = tradeoff isn=E2=80=99t in favor of TTZ. The costs are higher than the = benefits.

There = is no definitive right answer in subjective situations. We, as a = community, have to come to rough consensus. Frequently to get there, = there have to be compromises and tough decisions.
Regards,
Tony

= --Apple-Mail=_4F055775-0A01-4CB1-BBDB-ED37E7297161-- From nobody Sun Jul 19 18:31:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1556D3A0BEA for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 18:31:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OYokm_wlOL1j for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 18:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5FD3A0CB4 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 18:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.9]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app12-12012 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2eec5f14f3c49e3-56d11; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 09:30:45 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2eec5f14f3c49e3-56d11 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmccPC (unknown[117.136.38.146]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr05-12005 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee55f14f3c3672-020ce; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 09:30:44 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee55f14f3c3672-020ce From: "qinfengwei" To: "'wangyali'" , References: <159464612771.23915.16999479503429391526@ietfa.amsl.com> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404F012B8@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404F012B8@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 09:30:42 +0800 Message-ID: <010601d65e35$63018550$29048ff0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHWWRe0fdnLGyv4nU2MCh5oJ0Wq7akKRYeQgAVy5DA= Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9y?= =?utf-8?q?_draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 01:31:17 -0000 Hi, IFIT Capability Advertisement accurately tracks the urgent requirements = and real challenges when IFIT implementation. Right now, the IFIT test has been performed and is under = implementation. We found that signaling Node IFIT capability to ingress = nodes is indeed helpful for determining whether IFIT header and data = fields could be encapsulated in packets. Thanks, Fengwei Qin -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: wangyali [mailto:wangyali11@huawei.com]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8816=E6=97=A5 = 23:20 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: 'lsr@ietf.org' =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: FW: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt Dear LSR WG, We've uploaded a new revision of draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00 = to replace draft-wang-lsr-ifit-node-capability-advertisement. In this = new revision, Node and Link Attribute TLVs are extended to IGP for = signaling the supported IFIT capability of egress and/or intermediate = nodes to the ingress nodes. The changes in this revision are: 1. added Link Attribute TLVs extension to IGP to signal IFIT Capability = at link granularity. 2. updated Application section, which illustrates such advertisements = would helpful for avoiding the leak of IFIT-specific header and = metadata, as well as, for ingress routers to gather each router's IFIT = capability for achieving the computation of TE paths or loose TE paths = that be able to fulfill the visibility of on-path OAM data. 3. updated Acknowledgements sections, in which, the authors would like = to thank Acee Lindem, Christian Hopps, Robert Raszuk, Les Ginsberg, Jeff = Tantsura, Rakesh Gandhi, Tony Li and Greg Mirsky for the comments. 4. adding China Telecom into the author list. We are looking forward to hearing your feedback and comments, and try to = achieve consensus. Thanks, Yali -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 9:15 PM To: Tianran Zhou ; wangyali = ; Huanan Chen ; Liumin = (Lucy) ; Ran Pang ; = Liumin (Lucy) Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. Name: draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit Revision: 00 Title: IGP Extensions for In-situ Flow Information Telemetry = (IFIT) Capability Advertisement Document date: 2020-07-12 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-0= 0.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit Abstract: This document extends Node and Link Attribute TLVs to Interior Gateway Protocols (IGP) to advertise supported In-situ Flow Information Telemetry (IFIT) capabilities at node and/or link granularity. An ingress router cannot insert IFIT-Data-Fields for packets going into a path unless an egress router has indicated via signaling that it has the capability to process IFIT-Data-Fields. In addition, such advertisements would be useful for ingress routers to gather each router's IFIT capability for achieving the computation of Traffic Engineering (TE) paths or loose TE paths that be able to fulfill the visibility of on-path OAM data. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Jul 20 04:34:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBED3A03ED for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 04:34:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-ZDGJ1JISP0 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 04:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789653A03EA for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 04:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3422060885; Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:34:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: <72AD7E7A-B347-4485-A3BA-80E1501C1DE1@chopps.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3251CC16-DB3F-431D-BF35-2399839D7D36"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 07:34:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: <010601d65e35$63018550$29048ff0$@com> Cc: Christian Hopps , wangyali , lsr@ietf.org To: qinfengwei References: <159464612771.23915.16999479503429391526@ietfa.amsl.com> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404F012B8@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <010601d65e35$63018550$29048ff0$@com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:34:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3251CC16-DB3F-431D-BF35-2399839D7D36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So full speed ahead and ignoring the views expressed in the LSR WG? This = is not a recipe for success if you are basing your implementation on = using LSR protocols. Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] > On Jul 19, 2020, at 9:30 PM, qinfengwei = wrote: >=20 > Hi, > IFIT Capability Advertisement accurately tracks the urgent = requirements and real challenges when IFIT implementation. > Right now, the IFIT test has been performed and is under = implementation. We found that signaling Node IFIT capability to ingress = nodes is indeed helpful for determining whether IFIT header and data = fields could be encapsulated in packets. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Fengwei Qin >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: wangyali [mailto:wangyali11@huawei.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8816=E6=97=A5= 23:20 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: 'lsr@ietf.org' > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: FW: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt >=20 > Dear LSR WG, >=20 > We've uploaded a new revision of draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00 = to replace draft-wang-lsr-ifit-node-capability-advertisement. In this = new revision, Node and Link Attribute TLVs are extended to IGP for = signaling the supported IFIT capability of egress and/or intermediate = nodes to the ingress nodes. >=20 > The changes in this revision are: >=20 > 1. added Link Attribute TLVs extension to IGP to signal IFIT = Capability at link granularity. > 2. updated Application section, which illustrates such advertisements = would helpful for avoiding the leak of IFIT-specific header and = metadata, as well as, for ingress routers to gather each router's IFIT = capability for achieving the computation of TE paths or loose TE paths = that be able to fulfill the visibility of on-path OAM data. > 3. updated Acknowledgements sections, in which, the authors would like = to thank Acee Lindem, Christian Hopps, Robert Raszuk, Les Ginsberg, Jeff = Tantsura, Rakesh Gandhi, Tony Li and Greg Mirsky for the comments. > 4. adding China Telecom into the author list. >=20 > We are looking forward to hearing your feedback and comments, and try = to achieve consensus. >=20 > Thanks, > Yali >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 9:15 PM > To: Tianran Zhou ; wangyali = ; Huanan Chen ; Liumin = (Lucy) ; Ran Pang ; = Liumin (Lucy) > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. >=20 > Name: draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit > Revision: 00 > Title: IGP Extensions for In-situ Flow Information Telemetry = (IFIT) Capability Advertisement > Document date: 2020-07-12 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 12 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00= .txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document extends Node and Link Attribute TLVs to Interior > Gateway Protocols (IGP) to advertise supported In-situ Flow > Information Telemetry (IFIT) capabilities at node and/or link > granularity. An ingress router cannot insert IFIT-Data-Fields for > packets going into a path unless an egress router has indicated via > signaling that it has the capability to process IFIT-Data-Fields. = In > addition, such advertisements would be useful for ingress routers to > gather each router's IFIT capability for achieving the computation = of > Traffic Engineering (TE) paths or loose TE paths that be able to > fulfill the visibility of on-path OAM data. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_3251CC16-DB3F-431D-BF35-2399839D7D36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8VgUkACgkQLh2DDte4 MCV1qQ/9GFn80X+lMefQxoDkJwJQJ6PWJz9dQF7iuICHYNXNp0+Rgk9/zI219zR+ vY3LYowR6y1+/fzaLQBlf6jS2/20xYol6oqSk7OyxF53oi49s+TUAU4M0P5jzQSv LtlzO4dbKEMfAG358RBJxYsJgb0NsH0J+zjz9OMPeHEIg6pLd1QxOvYLMxsKsAe+ aarGB4BpLqaEVB1kCUuJxsvsTfSl7PDVHb6i1AKZvcpbpOPb29d3tPM7fNYCSyU+ rk7wyRp8Wc2Wn/Sp7j52h9QKf6ZUd7RrrqbgSJ+OO2HpdW1oRuqIgk4MDaNk9WtP 6NIi35vIe+wXgKYV2Zd0MUoEZn5XTAHSo+jskT/LvCL77LOjmGD7mzEOQsGqW+n7 yF54omFhLlQ0+aDyEIzWFHOHG4eYZhiqwsX6EF+nLMq53taJ2BWLdKSpd36CY9q+ vWQYiwowxUuag3YcKqxxJo+TDpdAxzYE5vn3Kw2gECe7mKtLtRQFP6k7+BbcaHjx 27VxySovfAkYya8BnjlW2VsSRwmETpIQKbW1NipsWT9+d8iLQvPlYnH+RwAGzg+x WS3nqN5+ObOvknhYG2o33H847pOgK71c8748lU5kD7UmbVoxNSkD4W/xpMeMhIre SUduq6dA3io0sw/8YKXu3Kxslzxzmzc28YV5o5iobmwvBNm/RSo= =1u8a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3251CC16-DB3F-431D-BF35-2399839D7D36-- From nobody Tue Jul 21 23:36:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B033A0E60 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 23:36:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6alHJPNBkLM for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 23:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB593A0E5E for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2020 23:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.13]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app07-12007 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee75f17de3ee45-8c6f4; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:35:43 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee75f17de3ee45-8c6f4 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmccPC (unknown[223.69.29.177]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr07-12007 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee75f17de3d5bc-5c4e5; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:35:43 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee75f17de3d5bc-5c4e5 From: "qinfengwei" To: "'Christian Hopps'" Cc: "'wangyali'" , References: <159464612771.23915.16999479503429391526@ietfa.amsl.com> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404F012B8@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <010601d65e35$63018550$29048ff0$@com> <72AD7E7A-B347-4485-A3BA-80E1501C1DE1@chopps.org> In-Reply-To: <72AD7E7A-B347-4485-A3BA-80E1501C1DE1@chopps.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:35:40 +0800 Message-ID: <00f601d65ff2$51eded80$f5c9c880$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdZe3H5fFkLJVJbGSC6t1BeS+TzJTQBFbfvA Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZv?= =?utf-8?q?r_draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 06:36:27 -0000 Hi Chris., Thank you for your response. To be clear. We are implementing IFIT, that is, the basic measurement = and monitoring. In the deployment, we need to bound the test traffic = within a limited domain.=20 But right now we can only use manual configuration. Motivated by this, = the protocol-based automation is required. I think the proposed IGP extension is useful and meets our requirement = well. Thanks, Fengwei Qin -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Christian Hopps [mailto:chopps@chopps.org]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5 = 19:35 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: qinfengwei =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Christian Hopps; wangyali; lsr@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt So full speed ahead and ignoring the views expressed in the LSR WG? This = is not a recipe for success if you are basing your implementation on = using LSR protocols. Thanks, Chris. [As WG member] > On Jul 19, 2020, at 9:30 PM, qinfengwei = wrote: >=20 > Hi, > IFIT Capability Advertisement accurately tracks the urgent = requirements and real challenges when IFIT implementation. > Right now, the IFIT test has been performed and is under = implementation. We found that signaling Node IFIT capability to ingress = nodes is indeed helpful for determining whether IFIT header and data = fields could be encapsulated in packets. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Fengwei Qin >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: wangyali [mailto:wangyali11@huawei.com] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8816=E6=97=A5 23:20 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: 'lsr@ietf.org' > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: FW: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt >=20 > Dear LSR WG, >=20 > We've uploaded a new revision of draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00 = to replace draft-wang-lsr-ifit-node-capability-advertisement. In this = new revision, Node and Link Attribute TLVs are extended to IGP for = signaling the supported IFIT capability of egress and/or intermediate = nodes to the ingress nodes. >=20 > The changes in this revision are: >=20 > 1. added Link Attribute TLVs extension to IGP to signal IFIT = Capability at link granularity. > 2. updated Application section, which illustrates such advertisements = would helpful for avoiding the leak of IFIT-specific header and = metadata, as well as, for ingress routers to gather each router's IFIT = capability for achieving the computation of TE paths or loose TE paths = that be able to fulfill the visibility of on-path OAM data. > 3. updated Acknowledgements sections, in which, the authors would like = to thank Acee Lindem, Christian Hopps, Robert Raszuk, Les Ginsberg, Jeff = Tantsura, Rakesh Gandhi, Tony Li and Greg Mirsky for the comments. > 4. adding China Telecom into the author list. >=20 > We are looking forward to hearing your feedback and comments, and try = to achieve consensus. >=20 > Thanks, > Yali >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 9:15 PM > To: Tianran Zhou ; wangyali = ; Huanan Chen ; Liumin = (Lucy) ; Ran Pang ; = Liumin (Lucy) > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. >=20 > Name: draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit > Revision: 00 > Title: IGP Extensions for In-situ Flow Information Telemetry = (IFIT) Capability Advertisement > Document date: 2020-07-12 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 12 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-0= 0.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-igp-extensions-ifit >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document extends Node and Link Attribute TLVs to Interior > Gateway Protocols (IGP) to advertise supported In-situ Flow > Information Telemetry (IFIT) capabilities at node and/or link > granularity. An ingress router cannot insert IFIT-Data-Fields for > packets going into a path unless an egress router has indicated via > signaling that it has the capability to process IFIT-Data-Fields. = In > addition, such advertisements would be useful for ingress routers to > gather each router's IFIT capability for achieving the computation = of > Traffic Engineering (TE) paths or loose TE paths that be able to > fulfill the visibility of on-path OAM data. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Sat Jul 25 18:46:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4413A082D; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:46:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159572796492.12445.13793594490990027339@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:46:04 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:46:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Area Proxy for IS-IS Authors : Tony Li Sarah Chen Vivek Ilangovan Gyan S. Mishra Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2020-07-25 Abstract: Link state routing protocols have hierarchical abstraction already built into them. However, when lower levels are used for transit, they must expose their internal topologies to each other, leading to scale issues. To avoid this, this document discusses extensions to the IS-IS routing protocol that would allow level 1 areas to provide transit, yet only inject an abstraction of the level 1 topology into level 2. Each level 1 area is represented as a single level 2 node, thereby enabling greater scale. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Jul 25 18:49:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93293A082F for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.995 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.995 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQP9HuWLzvhi for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 225873A082D for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id d188so1195197pfd.2 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references:to:date; bh=U4o4zXBUhA6S7XqqaNtVIEy6SaDazjaV6J+f8AWjcy0=; b=fcvY/YnVQkuFeloAbLEzKwlGH/esHCE+y4hM1kULXinmBFhxFa1nLZTnlzvEM8MtKG jUUkE27hxVU6er905dls4NeyPBerckpAbY5oAaNSor7J35ZH8porWSNH2/xcpVkTnR5Q /nkEN4qtV9R6ARzx9g6z8sEANOjOS5s84K70C4iH4bcN/KJzCSadvX9M6DUv6ntiW348 R5ofdub/sHcIsazh2XQucMSfC0qjvtHeSXnjAKphvVTa08oSyWctBm+b8nlTWC77Udht OpNZndTkgN4y+nDd2K6J2xrsSQXQ3FslddTV0BG05CfBPIwTvIFgXVO4FyO7LePU3bGI KaXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:mime-version:subject:message-id :references:to:date; bh=U4o4zXBUhA6S7XqqaNtVIEy6SaDazjaV6J+f8AWjcy0=; b=mkvjund9X1aI3y/hPY9AxTLM36SIL+PgEdvWai3kZzqvFnM4V8fypvFVDrvnDhpIi5 06vhL2oMld+58BnUTCIKshgSZ0c+mQJYvnPW3SjZhn3sSLoJinnGsKCY7c8oC7nub5W5 IulKuu4SEiS42+ldYaN6oXJuIrE8kNqpVxVIiQa034wDgq2hskWxgUy2MoptmLqiVoc7 U1UVPrLWMiFx1BwKCyw5KEE7JQpt0ryCNlYxIu+gl6qkCGkegrlRFC3isuPH+dMRMNhV Pf56FuJw1TQxG1ajQM/h8p5cLIc8XZMUHVA4byjPHqmRG/gB9ymyHxcnPjP2CgjyXKvu vzew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RsirTEIK1oeskNVbhyDr02QC6dU4AlyZPXdq8ejk5Sj0Te3ID vrnYBvK+XI5LRFSKcFmIVIxn9I5a X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyONaB2eEfCCEZGn2uZU/ZPoVO6HfU69f3z0OouLxzb+BlsRerTPBAlpuMFLGq8SrTBijHxTQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:4549:: with SMTP id x9mr13846554pgr.415.1595728169717; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.81.134] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i132sm10622583pfe.9.2020.07.25.18.49.28 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6DAF23E7-F30A-43E2-86BE-B250F660D817" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Message-Id: <5527A777-4FBC-4EA6-8284-E7771DE2E733@tony.li> References: <159572796513.12445.6949559311624487038@ietfa.amsl.com> To: lsr@ietf.org Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:49:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 01:49:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6DAF23E7-F30A-43E2-86BE-B250F660D817 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi folks, This version of the draft reflects major changes in line with the = discussions that we=E2=80=99ve had so far. To wit: - The Area Proxy TLV is now moved to be in L2 LSPs and indicates that = the advertising node is an Inside Node and Area Proxy is active. - The Area Proxy Router Capability has been removed. - The Inside Node TLV has been removed. - The Area Segment SID TLV has been replaced by extending the Binding = SID TLV. We know that some folks disagree with this last point, so we welcome = discussion on this. We would like to reach consensus as quickly as = possible. Thanks, Tony > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt > Date: July 25, 2020 at 6:46:05 PM PDT > To: "Vivek Ilangovan" , "Sarah Chen" = , "Gyan S. Mishra" , = "Gyan Mishra" , "Yunxia Chen" = , "Tony Li" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tony Li and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy > Revision: 02 > Title: Area Proxy for IS-IS > Document date: 2020-07-25 > Group: lsr > Pages: 20 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt= > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 >=20 > Abstract: > Link state routing protocols have hierarchical abstraction already > built into them. However, when lower levels are used for transit, > they must expose their internal topologies to each other, leading to > scale issues. >=20 > To avoid this, this document discusses extensions to the IS-IS > routing protocol that would allow level 1 areas to provide transit, > yet only inject an abstraction of the level 1 topology into level 2. > Each level 1 area is represented as a single level 2 node, thereby > enabling greater scale. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6DAF23E7-F30A-43E2-86BE-B250F660D817 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi folks,

This version of the draft reflects = major changes in line with the discussions that we=E2=80=99ve had so = far.

To = wit:
- The Area Proxy TLV is now moved to be in L2 = LSPs and indicates that the advertising node is an Inside Node and Area = Proxy is active.
- The Area Proxy Router Capability = has been removed.
- The Inside Node TLV has been = removed.
- The Area Segment SID TLV has been = replaced by extending the Binding SID TLV.

We know that some folks disagree with = this last point, so we welcome discussion on this. We would like to = reach consensus as quickly as possible.

Thanks,
Tony


Begin = forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt
Date: = July 25, 2020 at 6:46:05 PM = PDT
To: = "Vivek Ilangovan" <ilangovan@arista.com>, "Sarah Chen" <sarahchen@arista.com>, "Gyan S. Mishra" <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>, "Gyan Mishra" <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>, "Yunxia Chen" <sarahchen@arista.com>, "Tony Li" <tony.li@tony.li>

A new version of I-D, = draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Tony Li and posted to the
IETF = repository.

Name: = draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy
Revision: 02
Title:= = Area Proxy for IS-IS
Document date: = 2020-07-25
Group: lsr
Pages: 20
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-p= roxy-02.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy= /
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-= proxy
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-pr= oxy-02

Abstract:
=   Link state routing protocols have hierarchical abstraction = already
  built into them.  However, when = lower levels are used for transit,
  they must = expose their internal topologies to each other, leading to
=   scale issues.

  To = avoid this, this document discusses extensions to the IS-IS
=   routing protocol that would allow level 1 areas to provide = transit,
  yet only inject an abstraction of = the level 1 topology into level 2.
  Each level = 1 area is represented as a single level 2 node, thereby
=   enabling greater scale.




Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



= --Apple-Mail=_6DAF23E7-F30A-43E2-86BE-B250F660D817-- From nobody Sun Jul 26 18:04:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB0C63A15AD; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:04:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159581184382.8165.3603940551638410177@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:04:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:04:04 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS Authors : Les Ginsberg Paul Wells Tony Li Tony Przygienda Shraddha Hegde Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2020-07-26 Abstract: Key to the extensibility of the Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) protocol has been the handling of unsupported and/or invalid Type/Length/Value (TLV) tuples. Although there are explicit statements in existing specifications, deployment experience has shown that there are inconsistencies in the behavior when a TLV which is disallowed in a particular Protocol Data Unit (PDU) is received. This document discusses such cases and makes the correct behavior explicit in order to ensure that interoperability is maximized. This document updates RFC5305 and RFC6232. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR11MB4337.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4e7974fd-fb59-4ea1-59b7-08d831c9c7b5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Jul 2020 01:09:57.9784 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0SGM+Zjm7Rl7Ag09TnwGuVVLKW/YfgjFSD8DDHjYmcmtrzcFeXmFY+XpVm2VOv/Rijy6qbwdPYuY3gjHYcobwQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3751 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.15, xch-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:10:03 -0000 This update addresses review comments from: Murray Kucherawy Roman Danyliw Benjamin Kaduk Rob Wilton Les > -----Original Message----- > From: Lsr On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 6:04 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS > Authors : Les Ginsberg > Paul Wells > Tony Li > Tony Przygienda > Shraddha Hegde > Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt > Pages : 9 > Date : 2020-07-26 >=20 > Abstract: > Key to the extensibility of the Intermediate System to Intermediate > System (IS-IS) protocol has been the handling of unsupported and/or > invalid Type/Length/Value (TLV) tuples. Although there are explicit > statements in existing specifications, deployment experience has > shown that there are inconsistencies in the behavior when a TLV which > is disallowed in a particular Protocol Data Unit (PDU) is received. >=20 > This document discusses such cases and makes the correct behavior > explicit in order to ensure that interoperability is maximized. >=20 > This document updates RFC5305 and RFC6232. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Sun Jul 26 18:33:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2163A15CB for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:33:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bk307VdizBw for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FCC3A15C9 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:32:55 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.218:21769.17218937 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-219.142.69.75?logid-d4fa30c175784d4eb520b1acb841701c (unknown [172.18.0.218]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 71C44280165; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:32:46 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id d4fa30c175784d4eb520b1acb841701c for huzhibo@huawei.com; Mon Jul 27 09:32:37 2020 X-Transaction-ID: d4fa30c175784d4eb520b1acb841701c X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn From: "Aijun Wang" To: Cc: "'Zhibo Hu'" , "'Yaqun Xiao'" References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:32:49 +0800 Message-ID: <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIFxVYWa52TS3+lleUCjv1WJLVErai73FhQ Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:33:02 -0000 Hi, LSR experts: We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable = Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among = ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for = example: 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to = indicate the prefix is unreachable? 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution? Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also = have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. Best Regards Aijun Wang China Telecom=20 -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; = Yaqun Xiao Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement Revision: 03 Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement Document date: 2020-07-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 Abstract: This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Jul 27 03:26:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietf.org Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCF93A18C6; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:26:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159584557956.28092.18139376925920173378@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:26:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-01.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:26:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : IS-IS Flood Reflection Authors : Tony Przygienda Chris Bowers Yiu Lee Alankar Sharma Russ White Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-01.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-07-27 Abstract: This document describes an optional ISIS extension that allows the creation of IS-IS flood reflection topologies. Flood reflection allows the creation of topologies where L1 areas provide transit forwarding for L2 destinations within an L2 topology. It accomplishes this by creating L2 flood reflection adjacencies within each L1 area. The L2 flood reflection adjacencies are used to flood L2 LSPDUs, and they are used in the L2 SPF computation. However, they are not used for forwarding. This arrangement gives the L2 topology better scaling properties. In addition, only those routers directly participating in flood reflection have to support the feature. This allows for the incremental deployment of scalable L1 transit areas in an existing network, without the necessity of upgrading other routers in the network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-isis-flood-reflection-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 27 10:51:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A413A1B71 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:51:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=a3sW55TO; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=n1YP008y Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id holUNah1QRfa for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 18:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (mail-m127101.qiye.163.com [115.236.127.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C5E33A0B01 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 18:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP2IOH5QC (unknown [219.142.69.75]) by mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id D25F946AAC; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:56:27 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Acee Lindem \(acee\)'" , "'Aijun Wang'" , Cc: "'Zhibo Hu'" , "'Yaqun Xiao'" References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:56:26 +0800 Message-ID: <016801d66482$4e3c5070$eab4f150$@tsinghua.org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0169_01D664C5.5C620170" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: zh-cn Thread-Index: AQIFxVYWa52TS3+lleUCjv1WJLVErQIaJj8zAXrwE5yooMNEQA== X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUpXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLWVdZKFlBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1 kPCRoVCBIfWUFZHUwZSEMdHkIfShlJVkpOQk5CS0pIQ0NKQkNVEwETFhoSFyQUDg9ZV1kWGg8SFR 0UWUFZT0tIVUpKS09ISFVKS0tZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6Mjo6KRw6MD8aDw9LE01DEz1K SBAaCw1VSlVKTkJOQktKSENDTUxNVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxOWVdZCAFZQUlDSE9MNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a739322a52f9865kuuud25f946aac Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:56:43 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01D664C5.5C620170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Acee: Let me try to answer your concerns. Please see the below inline. If I missed your comments, please correct me. =20 Best Regards =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 -----Original Message----- From: lsr-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Acee Lindem (acee) Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:51 AM To: Aijun Wang ; lsr@ietf.org Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' ; 'Yaqun Xiao' Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Speaking as an LSR Working Group member: =20 Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the = wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck = to drive off the edge of a cliff. [WAJ] Let=E2=80=99s confirm it is not cliff J, but traffic black hole = that should be notified and repaired.=20 =20 Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with these complex and unnecessary = mechanisms, it would be better to address the requirement in your = network design. [WAJ] section 3 of this draft = has demonstrated the problem/scenarios that = needs to be addressed. We think this will be normal phenomena in the = IPv6 era.=20 =20 Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only = relevant if it is reachable through another ABR.=20 [WAJ] it is not the unreachability of a given summarized prefix, but the = more specific prefix that within the summary address. =20 In this case, the network design should provide adequate intra-area = redundancy to provide communications between the ABRs.=20 [WAJ] Even there is adequate intra-area redundancy communication between = the ABRs, the failure of one specific prefix within the summary address = that advertised by the ABR will lead to traffic black hole. =20 If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should be = established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone.=20 [WAJ] Section 6.1 introduces the tunnel solution to redirect the traffic = to another ABR, when such ABR router can reach the specified prefix. = But this additional mechanism will be used only when the ABR all reach = the PUA limit. If not, the PUA mechanism described in section 4 = can be used to guide the traffic.=20 =20 Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem as ABRs = should add back hole routes for their advertised summaries.=20 [WAJ] Yes, you are right. Normally the ABR will drop the traffic that it = can=E2=80=99t reach. But there is situation that when the tunnel that = is pre-established among ABRs, and each tunnel claim it can reach the = specified prefix, the traffic loop may arise if the received ABR send = traffic via another tunnel. =20 =20 Acee =20 =EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" < = lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote: =20 Hi, LSR experts: =20 We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable = Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic = among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and = ISIS. =20 There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, = for example: 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to = indicate the prefix is unreachable? 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution? =20 Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will = also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. =20 Best Regards =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [ = mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM To: Zhibo Hu < huzhibo@huawei.com>; = Aijun Wang < wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; = Yaqun Xiao < xiaoyaqun@huawei.com> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 =20 A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. =20 Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement Revision: 03 Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement Document date: 2020-07-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: = = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt Status: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ Htmlized: = = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 Htmlized: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement Diff: = = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 =20 Abstract: This document describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. =20 =20 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. =20 The IETF Secretariat =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr =20 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01D664C5.5C620170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, = Acee:

Let me try to answer your concerns.

Please see the below = inline.

If I missed your comments, please correct = me.

 

Best Regards

 

Aijun = Wang

China Telecom

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: lsr-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee)
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:51 = AM
To: Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; = lsr@ietf.org
Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' <huzhibo@huawei.com>; 'Yaqun Xiao' = <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version = Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

Speaking as an LSR Working Group = member:

 

Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix = unreachability is the wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether = to use a car or truck to drive off the edge of a = cliff.

[WAJ] Let=E2=80=99s = confirm it is not cliff J, but traffic = black hole that should be notified and repaired. =

 

Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with these complex = and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to address the = requirement in your network design.

[WAJ] section 3 of this draft has = demonstrated the problem/scenarios that needs to be addressed. We think = this will be normal phenomena in the IPv6 era. =

 

Note that the unreachability of = a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through = another ABR.

[WAJ] it is not the unreachability of a given summarized = prefix, but the more specific prefix that within the summary = address.

 

In this case, the network design = should provide adequate intra-area redundancy to provide communications = between the ABRs.

[WAJ] Even there is = adequate intra-area redundancy communication between the ABRs, the = failure of one specific prefix within the summary address that = advertised by the ABR will lead to traffic black = hole.

 

If this cannot be accomplished, = an intra-area adjacency should be established over a tunnel between the = ABRs in the backbone.

[WAJ] Section 6.1 = introduces the tunnel solution to redirect the traffic to another ABR, = when such ABR router can reach the specified prefix. =C2=A0But this = additional mechanism will be used only when the ABR all reach the PUA = limit. If not, the PUA mechanism described in section 4 can be used to = guide the traffic.

 

Contrary to section 6.1, Looping = is normally not a problem as ABRs should add back hole routes for their = advertised summaries.

[WAJ] Yes, you are right. Normally the ABR will = drop the traffic that it can=E2=80=99t reach. =C2=A0But there is situation = that when the tunnel that is pre-established among ABRs, and each tunnel = claim it can reach the specified prefix, the traffic loop may arise if = the received ABR send traffic via another tunnel. = =C2=A0

 

Acee

 

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun = Wang" <lsr-bounces@ietf.org on = behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> = wrote:

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hi, LSR experts:

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We have = uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) = draft. The main updates are the followings:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) Describes = the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all = ABRs reaches the PUA limit.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) Describe = fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) Defining = PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and = ISIS.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are also some arguments about the = current solution for PUA, for example:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) Is it = suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to = indicate the prefix is unreachable?

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) if not, = what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution?

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Wish to hear comments and suggestions on = the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF = LSR meeting.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Best Regards

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Aijun = Wang

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 China Telecom

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -----Original = Message-----

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org<= /span> [mailto:internet-drafts@ie= tf.org]

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 = AM

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To: Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com= >; Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Yaqun Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 has been = successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Revision: = 03

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Prefix Unreachable = Announcement

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Document = date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2020-07-27

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Individual Submission

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 11

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = https://www.ietf.org/inte= rnet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/rfcd= iff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Abstract:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document = describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the unreachable = prefixes for service fast convergence.

 

 

 

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please note = that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until = the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The IETF = Secretariat

 

 

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = _______________________________________________

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lsr mailing = list

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.org

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/lsr

 

_______________________________________________

Lsr mailing = list

Lsr@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/lsr

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[Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHWY7N0b8U7rxAxrkKccN2nDUzbRKkaHimAgAERTwCAAQomYA== Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:03:04 +0000 Message-ID: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF70E4FC@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.126] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 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08:11:45 -0000 ------=_Part_3423417_1639792764.1595923900561 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ZRAP278MB012552DB3235FB4FC8D3B61B89730ZRAP278MB0125CHEP_" Content-Language: en-US --_000_ZRAP278MB012552DB3235FB4FC8D3B61B89730ZRAP278MB0125CHEP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear lsr, I presented the following draft Export of MPLS Segment Routing Label Type Information in IP Flow Informatio= n Export (IPFIX) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-04 at the spring working group at IETF 108 yesterday https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-spring-ip-flow-infor= mation-export-ipfix-00.pdf and today at OPSAWG where I call for adoption. This draft adds additional segment routing code points for in the IANA IPFI= X registry for IS-IS, OPSFv2 and OPSF v3 and segment routing SID types to g= ain further insights into the MPLS-SR forwarding-plane. I have been asked to not only gather feedback from spring and opsawg but al= so from lsr and mpls working groups since these code points are related to = link state routing protocols and mpls data plane. I am looking forward to your feedback and input. Best Wishes Thomas Graf --_000_ZRAP278MB012552DB3235FB4FC8D3B61B89730ZRAP278MB0125CHEP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear lsr,

 

I presented the following draft=

 

Export of MPLS Segment Routing = Label Type Information in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tgraf-i= pfix-mpls-sr-label-type-04

 

at the spring working group at = IETF 108 yesterday

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-spring= -ip-flow-information-export-ipfix-00.pdf

 

and today at OPSAWG where I cal= l for adoption.

 

This draft adds additional segm= ent routing code points for in the IANA IPFIX registry for IS-IS, OPSFv2 an= d OPSF v3 and segment routing SID types to gain further insights into the MPLS-SR forwarding-plane.

 

I have been asked to not only g= ather feedback from spring and opsawg but also from lsr and mpls working gr= oups since these code points are related to link state routing protocols and mpls data plane.

 

I am looking forward to your fe= edback and input.

 

Best Wishes

Thomas Graf

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AOAM530jORaWrtOuZgmo9lwrE9y96oAJv/NgD6e12HI2CvZFnPRVSpqP JCcDL5zBt+ou9NT856Go+TxyEqMT9qkt9n5YkBYwHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzepVGPizBXgnsYi33LOKKvFtkVwIj6RtBACHFwUm1AvjMGI3kYgJH3hRHYkztinaPxp2jfTHEaBm2aUGS/VHk= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:dd14:: with SMTP id i20mr26192161edv.41.1595927862583; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:17:32 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: Aijun Wang , "lsr@ietf.org" , Zhibo Hu , Yaqun Xiao Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000562d4a05ab7ce983" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:17:48 -0000 --000000000000562d4a05ab7ce983 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Acee, I would like to question your assessment that signalling unreachable routes is unnecessary. Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no failures area 1 advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. That block covers PE's loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those loopbacks are also BGP next hops. Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well till BGP reconverges all paths advertised by this PE with 1.1.1.1/32 are still valid as this next hop is still reachable entire network wide. That means that traffic is being sent to this failed PE1 for relatively long period of time. It seems natural that without breaking benefits of summarization across areas or domains in the above scenario we could continue to advertise 1.1.1.0/24 - 1.1.1.1/32. That is when I see most benefits of advertising unreachability aka negative routing. Of course said all of the above - if you search your employer's archives - you will see a proposal where the above mechanism can be done within BGP itself with no touch to the IGP - just using a bit of twisted next hop validation steps and BGP native recursion. I am not going to make any judgements here which method is better or easier - naturally I personally like BGP one more :). But I hope this is clear why at least discussion on the subject is important. It also illustrates why the below statement is not necessarily correct: "Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. " Kind regards, Robert. On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Speaking as an LSR Working Group member: > > Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the > wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck = to > drive off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with > these complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to address t= he > requirement in your network design. Note that the unreachability of a giv= en > summarized prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR= . > In this case, the network design should provide adequate intra-area > redundancy to provide communications between the ABRs. If this cannot be > accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should be established over a tunnel > between the ABRs in the backbone. Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is > normally not a problem as ABRs should add back hole routes for their > advertised summaries. > > Acee > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote: > > Hi, LSR experts: > > We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable > Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: > 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among > ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. > 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. > 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS= . > > There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for > example: > 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to > indicate the prefix is unreachable? > 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible > solution? > > Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will > also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. > > Best Regards > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM > To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; > Yaqun Xiao > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > > > A new version of I-D, > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement > Revision: 03 > Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement > Document date: 2020-07-27 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 11 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 > > Abstract: > This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce > the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > --000000000000562d4a05ab7ce983 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Acee,

I would like to question yo= ur assessment that signalling unreachable routes is unnecessary.=C2=A0

Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no fail= ures area 1 advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. That block covers PE's loopbacks which within the = area are /32s. Those loopbacks are also BGP next hops.=C2=A0

=
Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well till BGP reconverges all paths advertised by this PE with=C2= =A01.1.1.1/32 are still valid as this nex= t hop is still reachable entire network wide. That means that traffic is be= ing sent to this failed PE1 for=C2=A0relatively long period of time.=C2=A0<= /div>

It seems natural that without breaking benefits of= summarization across areas or domains in the above scenario we could conti= nue to advertise 1.1.1.0/24 - 1.1.1.1/32. That is when I see most benefits of adve= rtising unreachability=C2=A0aka negative routing.=C2=A0

Of course said all of the above - if you search your employer's a= rchives - you will see a proposal where the above mechanism=C2=A0can be don= e within BGP itself with no touch to the IGP - just using a bit of twisted = next hop validation steps and BGP native recursion. I am not going to make = any judgements here which method is better or easier - naturally I personal= ly like BGP one more :).=C2=A0

But I hope this is = clear why at least discussion on the subject is important. It also illustra= tes why the below statement is not necessarily=C2=A0correct:=C2=A0

"Note that the unreachability of a given summarized p= refix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. "=C2=A0=

Kind regards,
Robert.

=

= On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= br>
Speaking as an L= SR Working Group member:

Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the wrong= question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck to driv= e off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with these= complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to address the requ= irement in your network design. Note that the unreachability of a given sum= marized prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. In = this case, the network design should provide adequate intra-area redundancy= to provide communications between the ABRs. If this cannot be accomplished= , an intra-area adjacency should be established over a tunnel between the A= BRs in the backbone. Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a pro= blem as ABRs should add back hole routes for their advertised summaries.
Acee

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" <<= a href=3D"mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">lsr-bounces@ietf.o= rg on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi, LSR experts:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachab= le Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traff= ic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 = and ISIS.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are also some arguments about the current solution for = PUA, for example:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" su= b-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other= convincible solution?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We= will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aijun Wang
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 China Telecom

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Y= aqun Xiao <xia= oyaqun@huawei.com>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-u= nreachable-annoucement-03.txt


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annou= cement-03.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to t= he IETF repository.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d= raft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A003
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Prefix= Unreachable Announcement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2020-07-27
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Indivi= dual Submission
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/inter= net-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wa= ng-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix= -unreachable-annoucement-03
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra= ft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?ur= l2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanism that can b= e used to announce
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the unreachable prefixes for service fast conver= gence.




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the tim= e of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf= .org.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF Secretariat



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.or= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr=

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--000000000000562d4a05ab7ce983-- From nobody Tue Jul 28 02:51:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 814343A0A11 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:51:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CiTOjAsB_uP for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C7303A0A08 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4BGBlN6wYDz5yCg; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:51:28 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1595929889; bh=+3wfFJ10MIqFFLyLXck0+oZxeXF7qiGb2WoJ0GVv5ik=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=S5DIrQqEn+TV9Axj49ZghRr/ChaB1D9ahiS4MgNw6uVO4UAeG32G0WPMXW0HmOAlq KC9xNAJFXKvhMs/HE9Q5ZiAZUaxL6wx/ZiEUDyy0k9AVSqEwv+8KOCXTu7FcN4MbFG 8Kt8VMlFiD6hOAIuZxSzMJEt4O/P8fwOfkXn4+Ju1gzuaO7uYJxHgc1Va5DgZHYxK1 +ZSWi1p73sa2HVVgQgIusPLzJcXHZfL19fjcracWesW2dWVxt19QX2xcFCazlSxQPI Ggqub0LNHx1UMKWuQTi2gmXAa0rxHoOxq8tp6NVH7TyfS+c6vZwpIWMMneFzt7BQg+ 5yJMzHtLOfgfA== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.82]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4BGBlN5yhCzFpWv; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:51:28 +0200 (CEST) From: To: Robert Raszuk , "Acee Lindem (acee)" CC: Aijun Wang , Zhibo Hu , "Yaqun Xiao" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHWZMAAmRQeagDT80iQww9bshi7qakcvImQ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:51:28 +0000 Message-ID: <5758_1595929888_5F1FF520_5758_464_19_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFBBA8@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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bulk Cc: lsr@ietf.org, lsr-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv@ietf.org, Christian Hopps , The IESG , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, chopps@chopps.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <159593147760.21576.5964748872005981940@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 03:17:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Protocol Action: 'Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt) X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:18:05 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Invalid TLV Handling in IS-IS' (draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv-03.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Link State Routing Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Martin Vigoureux and Deborah Brungard. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-invalid-tlv/ Technical Summary Key to the extensibility of the Intermediate System to Intermediate System (IS-IS) protocol has been the handling of unsupported and/or invalid Type/Length/Value (TLV) tuples. Although there are explicit statements in existing specifications, deployment experience has shown that there are inconsistencies in the behavior when a TLV which is disallowed in a particular Protocol Data Unit (PDU) is received. This document discusses such cases and makes the correct behavior explicit in order to ensure that interoperability is maximized. Working Group Summary The document was well received and the process straight forward. Document Quality Most implementations already follow what this document specifies. The implementations that do not must be updated. 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Lindem (acee)" , Robert Raszuk CC: Aijun Wang , Zhibo Hu , "Yaqun Xiao" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt Thread-Index: AQIFxVYWmRQeagDT80iQww9bshi7qai73FhQgADS6ICAAUXsAIAACXsA///5agCAAFCykA== Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:17:55 +0000 Message-ID: <2093_1595945875_5F203393_2093_244_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFCC76@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> <5758_1595929888_5F1FF520_5758_464_19_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFBBA8@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3E5E43F9-D218-4AC9-A92F-1589284E5C0A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3E5E43F9-D218-4AC9-A92F-1589284E5C0A@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFCC76OPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:18:09 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFCC76OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCkZyb206IEFjZWUgTGluZGVtIChhY2VlKSBbbWFpbHRvOmFjZWVAY2lzY28uY29tXQ0KDQoN CkFuIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIGVuY29kaW5nIOKAkyBub3RlIHRoYXQgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGRvZXNu4oCZ dCB1c2UgaXQgZm9yIGZvcndhcmRpbmcuDQpbQnJ1bm9dIEFncmVlZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBkaXN0aW5j dGlvbiBiZXR3ZWVuIHJvdXRpbmcgYW5kIHJlYWNoYWJpbGl0eSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpcyBhIGtl eSBwb2ludC4NCi0tQnJ1bm8NCkFjZWUNCg0KRnJvbTogQnJ1bm8gRGVjcmFlbmUgPGJydW5vLmRl 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[IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080E73A0DCC; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:28:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsr@ietf.org Message-ID: <159595012476.7425.12927445145441271914@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:28:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-yang-isis-reverse-metric-01.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:28:45 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Routing WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Module for IS-IS Reverse Metric Author : Christian Hopps Filename : draft-ietf-lsr-yang-isis-reverse-metric-01.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2020-07-28 Abstract: This document defines a YANG module for managing the reverse metric extension to the the intermediate system to intermediate system routeing protocol. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-yang-isis-reverse-metric/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-yang-isis-reverse-metric-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsr-yang-isis-reverse-metric-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lsr-yang-isis-reverse-metric-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2zy4Da5P1twB for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hirzer.gredler.at (hirzer.gredler.at [165.22.72.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1791B3A106F for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannes-mba2.fritz.box (node-pt089-105-173-069.infra.schwaz.net [::ffff:89.105.173.69]) (AUTH: PLAIN hannes, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by hirzer with ESMTPSA; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:13:46 +0200 id 00000000000C39DF.000000005F2121AA.00001441 From: Hannes Gredler Message-Id: <2F45340B-C97C-4C30-BDAF-DB37998EA652@gredler.at> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0AF7BDC9-7C4B-4FFB-B984-6344DEB4C10D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:13:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <202007290957472639201@zte.com.cn> Cc: Acee Lindem , zzhang_ietf@hotmail.com, lsr@ietf.org To: liu.yao71@zte.com.cn References: <202007290957472639201@zte.com.cn> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] "IGP Extensions for Segment Routing Service Segment" -draft-lz-lsr-igp-sr-service-segments-02 X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:13:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0AF7BDC9-7C4B-4FFB-B984-6344DEB4C10D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yao, BGP-LS was designed to solve also the distribution of link-state = information between BGP speakers (see Figure 1 from RFC 7752 below). Just ask yourself: why would one want to use a point to multipoint state = replication protocol as complex as BGP for *just* client server alike = replication ? We wanted from day-1 to leverage the graph independent replication = abilities of BGP - so doing inter BGP-LS graphs is a legit use-case. HTH, /hannes ---=20 The collection of link-state and TE information and its distribution to consumers is shown in the following figure. +-----------+ | Consumer | +-----------+ ^ | +-----------+ | BGP | +-----------+ | Speaker | | Consumer | +-----------+ +-----------+ ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | +---------------+ | +-------------------+ | | | | | +-----------+ +-----------+ +-----------+ | BGP | | BGP | | BGP | | Speaker | | Speaker | . . . | Speaker | +-----------+ +-----------+ +-----------+ ^ ^ ^ | | | IGP IGP IGP Figure 1: Collection of Link-State and TE Information --- > On 29.07.2020, at 03:57, liu.yao71@zte.com.cn wrote: >=20 > Hi Acee, >=20 > Thanks for reading the draft. >=20 > Yes, the main purpose of this draft is to carry the segment segment = information via IGP so only one node per AS need to be connected with = the controller through BGP-LS. >=20 > With the existing BGP-LS extension draft, it is certainly one solution = to configure BGP sessions between all the service function nodes and = controller, and each node sends the SF information to the controller = individually. >=20 > And if I get you right, we can also select one node to have a BGP = session with the controller and configure BGP sessions between the = selected node and SF nodes. >=20 > But how the selected node get the SF information from SF nodes via BGP = needs to be solved, since BGP-LS is typically used for exchanging = information between the south and north rather than nodes of the same = level, and there's no other existing BGP extension for distribute SIDs = information between nodes . >=20 > This draft aims to provide an alternate way if the operators prefer = running IGP on SF nodes. >=20 > So we would like to collect comments on the WG session to see how = others think about it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Yao >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AAceeLindem(acee) > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E5=88=98=E5=B0=A700165286;zzhang_ie= tf@hotmail.com ; > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Alsr@ietf.org ; > =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B407=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 01:53 > =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A"IGP Extensions for Segment Routing = Service Segment" -draft-lz-lsr-igp-sr-service-segments-02 > Speaking as WG member: >=20 > =20 >=20 > It seems the sole purpose of this draft is to get service segment = information from nodes in the IGP domain to the IGP node that has a BGP = session with the controller. You don=E2=80=99t need to put this = information into the IGP in order to do this. Simply configure BGP = sessions for the BGP-LS AF between the nodes with service functions and = the node selected to have a BGP session with the controller. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Speaking as WG Chair =E2=80=93 please let me know if we can omit this = draft from the agenda. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Acee >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --Apple-Mail=_0AF7BDC9-7C4B-4FFB-B984-6344DEB4C10D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Yao,

BGP-LS= was designed to solve also the distribution of link-state information = between BGP speakers (see Figure 1 from RFC 7752 below).
Just ask yourself: why would one want to use a point to = multipoint state replication protocol as complex as BGP for *just* = client server alike replication ?

We wanted from day-1 to leverage the = graph independent replication abilities of BGP - so doing inter BGP-LS = graphs is a legit use-case.

HTH,

/hannes

--- 


   The collection of link-state and TE information and its =
distribution
   to consumers is shown in the following figure.

                           +-----------+
                           | Consumer  |
                           +-----------+
                                 ^
                                 |
                           +-----------+
                           |    BGP    |               +-----------+
                           |  Speaker  |               | Consumer  |
                           +-----------+               +-----------+
                             ^   ^   ^                       ^
                             |   |   |                       |
             +---------------+   |   +-------------------+   |
             |                   |                       |   |
       +-----------+       +-----------+             +-----------+
       |    BGP    |       |    BGP    |             |    BGP    |
       |  Speaker  |       |  Speaker  |    . . .    |  Speaker  |
       +-----------+       +-----------+             +-----------+
             ^                   ^                         ^
             |                   |                         |
            IGP                 IGP                       IGP

           Figure 1: Collection of Link-State and TE =
Information

---

On 29.07.2020, at 03:57, liu.yao71@zte.com.cn = wrote:

Hi Acee,

Thanks for = reading the draft.

Yes, the main purpose of this draft = is to carry the segment segment information via IGP so only one node per = AS need to be connected with the controller through BGP-LS.

With the existing BGP-LS extension draft, it is certainly one = solution to configure BGP sessions between all the service function = nodes and controller, and each node sends the SF information to the = controller individually.

And if I get you right, we can = also select one node to have a BGP session with the controller and = configure BGP sessions between the selected node and SF nodes.

But how the selected node get the SF information from SF = nodes via BGP needs to be solved, since BGP-LS is typically used for = exchanging information between the south and north rather than nodes of = the same level, and there's no other existing BGP extension for = distribute SIDs information between nodes .

This draft = aims to provide an alternate way if the operators prefer running IGP on = SF nodes.

So we would like to collect comments on the = WG session to see how others think about it.


Regards,

Yao




=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF= =BC=9AAceeLindem(acee) <acee@cisco.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC= =9A=E5=88=98=E5=B0=A700165286;zzhang_ietf@hotmail.com <zzhang_ietf@hotmail.com>;
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Alsr@ietf.org <lsr@ietf.org>;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F = =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B407=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 = 01:53
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 = =EF=BC=9A"IGP = Extensions for Segment Routing Service Segment" = -draft-lz-lsr-igp-sr-service-segments-02

Speaking = as WG member:

 

It seems the sole purpose of this = draft is to get service segment information from nodes in the IGP domain = to the IGP node that has a BGP session with the controller. You don=E2=80=99= t need to put this information into the IGP in order to do this. Simply configure BGP sessions for the = BGP-LS AF between the nodes with service functions and the node selected = to have a BGP session with the controller.

 

Speaking as WG Chair =E2=80=93 = please let me know if we can omit this draft from the agenda.

 

Thanks,

Acee


_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

= --Apple-Mail=_0AF7BDC9-7C4B-4FFB-B984-6344DEB4C10D-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 00:31:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737303A0D3F for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tb7J_X5akFDX for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hirzer.gredler.at (hirzer.gredler.at [165.22.72.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87BFB3A0D3B for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannes-mba2.fritz.box (node-pt089-105-173-069.infra.schwaz.net [::ffff:89.105.173.69]) (AUTH: PLAIN hannes, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by hirzer with ESMTPSA; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:31:16 +0200 id 00000000000BDC2D.000000005F2125C4.0000189F From: Hannes Gredler Message-Id: <44EA00AA-E9D9-4173-9F34-219752DACA5D@gredler.at> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8813B7FC-46C4-4744-80A2-A8760866A00A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:31:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1307140725.3423419.1595923900561@ss002890> Cc: lsr@ietf.org To: Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com References: <1307140725.3423419.1595923900561@ss002890> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:31:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8813B7FC-46C4-4744-80A2-A8760866A00A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thomas, I have one comment/suggestion to Paragraph 4 (IANA Considerations). Please add also a code point for BGP Prefix-SID - it=E2=80=99s quite = popular in DC deployments. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8669 = thanks, /hannes > On 28.07.2020, at 10:11, Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com wrote: >=20 > Dear lsr, > =20 > I presented the following draft > =20 > Export of MPLS Segment Routing Label Type Information in IP Flow = Information Export (IPFIX) > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-04 = > =20 > at the spring working group at IETF 108 yesterday > = https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-spring-ip-flow-info= rmation-export-ipfix-00.pdf = > =20 > and today at OPSAWG where I call for adoption. > =20 > This draft adds additional segment routing code points for in the IANA = IPFIX registry for IS-IS, OPSFv2 and OPSF v3 and segment routing SID = types to gain further insights into the MPLS-SR forwarding-plane. > =20 > I have been asked to not only gather feedback from spring and opsawg = but also from lsr and mpls working groups since these code points are = related to link state routing protocols and mpls data plane. > =20 > I am looking forward to your feedback and input. > =20 > Best Wishes > Thomas Graf > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr = --Apple-Mail=_8813B7FC-46C4-4744-80A2-A8760866A00A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thomas,

I = have one comment/suggestion to Paragraph 4 (IANA = Considerations).

Please add also a code point for BGP Prefix-SID - it=E2=80=99s = quite popular in DC deployments.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8669

thanks,

/hannes

On 28.07.2020, at 10:11, Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com wrote:

Dear lsr,
 
I presented the = following draft
 
Export of MPLS Segment = Routing Label Type Information in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-typ= e-04
 
at the spring working = group at IETF 108 yesterday
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-spring-i= p-flow-information-export-ipfix-00.pdf
 
and today at OPSAWG = where I call for adoption.
 
This draft adds = additional segment routing code points for in the IANA IPFIX registry = for IS-IS, OPSFv2 and OPSF v3 and segment routing SID types to gain = further insights into the MPLS-SR forwarding-plane.
 
I have been asked to = not only gather feedback from spring and opsawg but also from lsr and = mpls working groups since these code points are related to link state = routing protocols and mpls data plane.
 
I am looking forward = to your feedback and input.
 
Best Wishes
Thomas Graf
_______________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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Y29udmVyZ2VuY2UuDQoNCg0KDQoNCiAgICAgICAgUGxlYXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBtYXkgdGFr ZSBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHRpbWUgb2Ygc3VibWlzc2lvbiB1bnRpbCB0 aGUgaHRtbGl6ZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBhbmQgZGlmZiBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGF0IHRvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnLg0KDQogICAgICAgIFRoZSBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0DQoNCg0KDQogICAgICAgIF9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgICAgIExzciBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCiAgICAgICAgTHNyQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHNyDQoNCg0K From nobody Wed Jul 29 01:07:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9CC3A10A9 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, 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References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> <016801d66482$4e3c5070$eab4f150$@tsinghua.org.cn> <2AC41D97-4729-40FC-BF4A-DD5270B560D1@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2AC41D97-4729-40FC-BF4A-DD5270B560D1@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 16:54:19 +0800 Message-ID: <027401d66585$db27c240$917746c0$@chinatelecom.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0275_01D665C8.E94D4C30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIFxVYWa52TS3+lleUCjv1WJLVErQIaJj8zAXrwE5wCpTii+AGA4nTXqIGlVvA= Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:54:37 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0275_01D665C8.E94D4C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Acee: =20 From: acee@cisco.com [mailto:acee@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 9:22 PM To: Aijun Wang ; 'Aijun Wang' = ; lsr@ietf.org Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' ; 'Yaqun Xiao' Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Hi Aijun,=20 =20 You did misunderstand me so let me be brief.=20 =20 1. By summarized prefix, I mean an unreachable prefix subsumed by = the summary advertisement. I thought this would be clear from the = context of your draft. So my point is that signaling unreachability from = one ABR is only useful if the subsumed prefix is reachable though = another ABR.=20 [WAJ] Signaling unreachability is also useful when the specified prefix = isn=E2=80=99t reachable through all of ABRs. 2. What I=E2=80=99m suggesting is provide connectivity between the = ABRs. For example, you use the tunneling defining in section 6.1 = whenever a subsumed prefix is unreachable. Please don=E2=80=99t come = back with another circular argument.=20 [WAJ] Zhibo has answered this in another mail. Tunnel solution = can=E2=80=99t solve BGP route convergence scenario. Thanks, Acee =20 From: Aijun Wang > Date: Monday, July 27, 2020 at 9:57 PM To: Acee Lindem >, 'Aijun Wang' = >, = "lsr@ietf.org " > Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' >, 'Yaqun = Xiao' > Subject: RE: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Hi, Acee: Let me try to answer your concerns. Please see the below inline. If I missed your comments, please correct me. =20 Best Regards =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 -----Original Message----- From: lsr-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee) Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:51 AM To: Aijun Wang = >; lsr@ietf.org =20 Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' >; 'Yaqun = Xiao' > Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Speaking as an LSR Working Group member: =20 Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the = wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck = to drive off the edge of a cliff. [WAJ] Let=E2=80=99s confirm it is not cliff J, but traffic black hole = that should be notified and repaired.=20 =20 Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with these complex and unnecessary = mechanisms, it would be better to address the requirement in your = network design. [WAJ] section 3 of this draft = has demonstrated the problem/scenarios that = needs to be addressed. We think this will be normal phenomena in the = IPv6 era.=20 =20 Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only = relevant if it is reachable through another ABR.=20 [WAJ] it is not the unreachability of a given summarized prefix, but the = more specific prefix that within the summary address. =20 In this case, the network design should provide adequate intra-area = redundancy to provide communications between the ABRs.=20 [WAJ] Even there is adequate intra-area redundancy communication between = the ABRs, the failure of one specific prefix within the summary address = that advertised by the ABR will lead to traffic black hole. =20 If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should be = established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone.=20 [WAJ] Section 6.1 introduces the tunnel solution to redirect the traffic = to another ABR, when such ABR router can reach the specified prefix. = But this additional mechanism will be used only when the ABR all reach = the PUA limit. If not, the PUA mechanism described in section 4 = can be used to guide the traffic.=20 =20 Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem as ABRs = should add back hole routes for their advertised summaries.=20 [WAJ] Yes, you are right. Normally the ABR will drop the traffic that it = can=E2=80=99t reach. But there is situation that when the tunnel that = is pre-established among ABRs, and each tunnel claim it can reach the = specified prefix, the traffic loop may arise if the received ABR send = traffic via another tunnel. =20 =20 Acee =20 On 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" < = lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote: =20 Hi, LSR experts: =20 We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable = Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic = among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and = ISIS. =20 There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, = for example: 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to = indicate the prefix is unreachable? 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution? =20 Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will = also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. =20 Best Regards =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [ = mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM To: Zhibo Hu < huzhibo@huawei.com>; = Aijun Wang < wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; = Yaqun Xiao < xiaoyaqun@huawei.com> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 =20 A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. =20 Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement Revision: 03 Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement Document date: 2020-07-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: = = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt Status: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ Htmlized: = = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 Htmlized: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement Diff: = = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 =20 Abstract: This document describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. =20 =20 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. =20 The IETF Secretariat =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr =20 _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr ------=_NextPart_000_0275_01D665C8.E94D4C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, = Acee:

 

<= b>From:<= /b> = acee@cisco.com [mailto:acee@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July = 28, 2020 9:22 PM
To: Aijun Wang = <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>; 'Aijun Wang' = <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; lsr@ietf.org
Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' = <huzhibo@huawei.com>; 'Yaqun Xiao' = <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version = Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

<= span lang=3DEN-US> 

Hi Aijun, =

 

You did = misunderstand me so let me be brief.

 

1.       = By = summarized prefix, I mean an unreachable prefix subsumed by the summary = advertisement. I thought this would be clear from the context of your = draft. So my point is that signaling unreachability from one ABR is only = useful if the subsumed prefix is reachable though another ABR. =

[WAJ] Signaling unreachability is also useful = when the specified prefix isn=E2=80=99t reachable through all of = ABRs.

2.       = What = I=E2=80=99m suggesting is provide connectivity between the ABRs. For = example, you use the tunneling defining in section 6.1 whenever a = subsumed prefix is unreachable. Please don=E2=80=99t come back with = another circular argument.

[WAJ] = Zhibo has answered this in another mail. =C2=A0Tunnel solution = can=E2=80=99t solve BGP route convergence scenario.

Thanks,
Ac= ee

 

From: = Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn&g= t;
Date: Monday, July 27, 2020 at 9:57 PM
To: Acee = Lindem <acee@cisco.com>, = 'Aijun Wang' <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>, = "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Zhibo = Hu' <huzhibo@huawei.com>, 'Yaqun = Xiao' <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
S= ubject: RE: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

Hi, Acee:

Let me try to answer your concerns.

Please see the below inline.

If I missed your comments, please correct = me.

 

Best Regards

 

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

 

-----Original Message-----
From: lsr-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee)
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:51 = AM
To: Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; = lsr@ietf.org
Cc: 'Zhibo Hu' = <huzhibo@huawei.com>; = 'Yaqun Xiao' <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
Subj= ect: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

Speaking as an LSR Working Group = member:

 

Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix = unreachability is the wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether = to use a car or truck to drive off the edge of a = cliff.

[WAJ] Let=E2=80=99s = confirm it is not cliff J, but traffic = black hole that should be notified and repaired.

 

Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with these complex = and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to address the = requirement in your network design.

[WAJ] section 3 of this draft has = demonstrated the problem/scenarios that needs to be addressed. We think = this will be normal phenomena in the IPv6 era. =

 

Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix = is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. =

[WAJ] it is not the unreachability of a given summarized = prefix, but the more specific prefix that within the summary = address.

 

In this case, the network design should provide adequate = intra-area redundancy to provide communications between the ABRs. =

[WAJ] Even there is adequate intra-area redundancy = communication between the ABRs, the failure of one specific prefix = within the summary address that advertised by the ABR will lead to = traffic black hole.

 

If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency = should be established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone. =

[WAJ] Section 6.1 introduces the tunnel solution to = redirect the traffic to another ABR, when such ABR router can reach the = specified prefix.  But this additional mechanism will be used only = when the ABR all reach the PUA limit. If not, the PUA mechanism = described in section 4 can be used to = guide the traffic.

 

Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem = as ABRs should add back hole routes for their advertised summaries. =

[WAJ] Yes, you are right. Normally = the ABR will drop the traffic that it can=E2=80=99t reach.  But there is situation that when = the tunnel that is pre-established among ABRs, and each tunnel claim it = can reach the specified prefix, the traffic loop may arise if the = received ABR send traffic via another tunnel.  

 

Acee

 

On 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun = Wang" <lsr-bounces@ietf.org on = behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> = wrote:

 

    Hi, LSR experts:

 

    We have uploaded the new version of this = PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the = followings:

    1) Describes the solution that using = tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA = limit.

    2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid = routing black hole.

    3) Defining PUA capabilities = announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS.

 

    There are also some arguments about the = current solution for PUA, for example:

    1) Is it suitable to set the = "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is = unreachable?

    2) if not, what's the consideration? = What's the other convincible solution?

 

    Wish to hear comments and suggestions on = the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF = LSR meeting.

 

    Best Regards

 

    Aijun Wang

    China Telecom

 

    -----Original = Message-----

    From: internet-drafts@ietf.org<= /span> [mailto:internet-drafts@ie= tf.org]

    Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 = AM

    To: Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com= >; Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Yaqun Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>

    Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

 

    A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

    has been successfully submitted by Aijun = Wang and posted to the IETF repository.

 

    = Name:           &n= bsp;  = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement

    Revision: 03

    = Title:           &= nbsp;     Prefix Unreachable = Announcement

    Document = date:      2020-07-27

    = Group:           &= nbsp; Individual Submission

    = Pages:           &= nbsp;  11

    = URL:            = https://www.ietf.org/inte= rnet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

    = Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/

    = Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03=

    = Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement

    = Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcd= iff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03

 

    Abstract:

       This document = describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce

       the unreachable = prefixes for service fast convergence.

 

 

 

 

    Please note that it may take a couple of = minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff = are available at tools.ietf.org.

 

    The IETF = Secretariat

 

 

 

    = _______________________________________________

    Lsr mailing list

    Lsr@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/lsr

 

_______________________________________________

Lsr mailing list

Lsr@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/lsr

------=_NextPart_000_0275_01D665C8.E94D4C30-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 02:09:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AF13A087B for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:09:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYo_AccMtmMm for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51853A08E4 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:09:27 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.48:28628.1418918883 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-219.142.69.75?logid-728de16bc1f84510872491de74982bf6 (unknown [172.18.0.48]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id DC6ED2800D7; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:09:06 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.48]) by App0024 with ESMTP id 728de16bc1f84510872491de74982bf6 for acee@cisco.com; Wed Jul 29 17:09:06 2020 X-Transaction-ID: 728de16bc1f84510872491de74982bf6 X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.48 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn From: "Aijun Wang" To: , "'Acee Lindem \(acee\)'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" Cc: "'Zhibo Hu'" , "'Yaqun Xiao'" , References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> <5758_1595929888_5F1FF520_5758_464_19_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFBBA8@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3E5E43F9-D218-4AC9-A92F-1589284E5C0A@cisco.com> <2093_1595945875_5F203393_2093_244_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFCC76@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <2093_1595945875_5F203393_2093_244_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48EFCC76@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:09:17 +0800 Message-ID: <028501d66587$f25f4ad0$d71de070$@chinatelecom.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0286_01D665CB.008745C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIFxVYWa52TS3+lleUCjv1WJLVErQIaJj8zAXrwE5wBP3ZfIgInSwHUAIW7QVABmkgHbah2pNtQ Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:09:32 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0286_01D665CB.008745C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting but complex/not efficient solution. How to solve the = problem in IPv6 network? =20 From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:18 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) ; Robert Raszuk = Cc: Aijun Wang ; Zhibo Hu ; = Yaqun Xiao ; lsr@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 =20 =20 From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com]=20 =20 An interesting encoding =E2=80=93 note that the draft doesn=E2=80=99t = use it for forwarding.=20 [Bruno] Agreed that the distinction between routing and reachability = information is a key point. --Bruno Acee =20 From: Bruno Decraene > Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 5:51 AM To: Robert Raszuk >, Acee = Lindem > Cc: Aijun Wang = >, Zhibo Hu >, Yaqun = Xiao >, = "lsr@ietf.org " > Subject: RE: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Another data point about advertising more detailed = reachability/unreachability: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-swallow-isis-detailed-reach-01 =20 (for IPv6 some form of compression may be beneficial). =20 --Bruno =20 From: Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:18 AM To: Acee Lindem (acee) > Cc: Aijun Wang = >; Zhibo Hu >; Yaqun = Xiao >; lsr@ietf.org = =20 Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Hello Acee, =20 I would like to question your assessment that signalling unreachable = routes is unnecessary.=20 =20 Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no failures area 1 = advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. = That block covers PE's loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those = loopbacks are also BGP next hops.=20 =20 Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well till = BGP reconverges all paths advertised by this PE with = 1.1.1.1/32 are still valid as this next hop is still = reachable entire network wide. That means that traffic is being sent to = this failed PE1 for relatively long period of time.=20 =20 It seems natural that without breaking benefits of summarization across = areas or domains in the above scenario we could continue to advertise = 1.1.1.0/24 - 1.1.1.1/32. That = is when I see most benefits of advertising unreachability aka negative = routing.=20 =20 Of course said all of the above - if you search your employer's archives = - you will see a proposal where the above mechanism can be done within = BGP itself with no touch to the IGP - just using a bit of twisted next = hop validation steps and BGP native recursion. I am not going to make = any judgements here which method is better or easier - naturally I = personally like BGP one more :).=20 =20 But I hope this is clear why at least discussion on the subject is = important. It also illustrates why the below statement is not = necessarily correct:=20 =20 "Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only = relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. "=20 =20 Kind regards, Robert. =20 =20 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: Speaking as an LSR Working Group member: Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the = wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck = to drive off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS = with these complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to = address the requirement in your network design. Note that the = unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is = reachable through another ABR. In this case, the network design should = provide adequate intra-area redundancy to provide communications between = the ABRs. If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should = be established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone. Contrary = to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem as ABRs should add = back hole routes for their advertised summaries.=20 Acee On 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" < = lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of = wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote: Hi, LSR experts: We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable = Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic = among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and = ISIS. There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, = for example: 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to = indicate the prefix is unreachable? 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution? Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will = also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. Best Regards Aijun Wang China Telecom=20 -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org = [mailto: internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM To: Zhibo Hu < huzhibo@huawei.com>; = Aijun Wang < wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; = Yaqun Xiao < xiaoyaqun@huawei.com> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement Revision: 03 Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement Document date: 2020-07-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: = = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt Status: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ Htmlized: = = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 Htmlized: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement Diff: = = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 Abstract: This document describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf..org. The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ =20 Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme = ou falsifie. Merci. =20 This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged = information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and = delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ =20 Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme = ou falsifie. Merci. =20 This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged = information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and = delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0286_01D665CB.008745C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I= nteresting but complex/not efficient solution. =C2=A0How to solve the = problem in IPv6 network?

<= o:p> 

From:<= /b> = bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] =
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:18 PM
To: Acee = Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>; Robert Raszuk = <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Aijun Wang = <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>; = Yaqun Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>; lsr@ietf.org
Subject: = RE: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

 

 

From:<= /b> Acee Lindem = (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com] =

 

An = interesting encoding =E2=80=93 note that the draft doesn=E2=80=99t use = it for forwarding.

[Bruno] Agreed that the distinction between routing and reachability = information is a key point.

--Bruno

Acee

 

From: Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com&g= t;
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 5:51 AM
To: = Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Acee Lindem = <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: = Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>, = Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>, Yaqun = Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>, = "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: = [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

Another data point about advertising more detailed = reachability/unreachability: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-swallow-isis-detailed-reach-01

 

(for IPv6 some form of compression may be beneficial).

 

--Bruno

 

From:<= /b> Lsr [mailto:lsr-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 = 11:18 AM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>
Cc: Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; = Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Yaqun = Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>; lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

Hello Acee,

 

I would like to question your assessment that signalling = unreachable routes is unnecessary. 

 

Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no failures = area 1 advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. That block = covers PE's loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those loopbacks = are also BGP next hops. 

 

Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well = till BGP reconverges all paths advertised by this PE = with 1.1.1.1/32 are still = valid as this next hop is still reachable entire network wide. That = means that traffic is being sent to this failed PE1 for relatively = long period of time. 

 

It seems natural that without breaking benefits of = summarization across areas or domains in the above scenario we could = continue to advertise 1.1.1.0/24 - = 1.1.1.1/32. That is = when I see most benefits of advertising unreachability aka negative = routing. 

 

Of course said all of the above - if you search your = employer's archives - you will see a proposal where the above = mechanism can be done within BGP itself with no touch to the IGP - = just using a bit of twisted next hop validation steps and BGP native = recursion. I am not going to make any judgements here which method is = better or easier - naturally I personally like BGP one more = :). 

 

But I hope this is clear why at least discussion on the = subject is important. It also illustrates why the below statement is not = necessarily correct: 

 

"Note that the unreachability of a given summarized = prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. = " 

 

Kind regards,
Robert.

 

 

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) = <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Speaking as an LSR Working Group member:

Asking the = WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the wrong = question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck to = drive off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS = with these complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to = address the requirement in your network design. Note that the = unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is = reachable through another ABR. In this case, the network design should = provide adequate intra-area redundancy to provide communications between = the ABRs. If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should = be established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone. Contrary = to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem as ABRs should add = back hole routes for their advertised summaries.

Acee

On = 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" = <lsr-bounces@ietf.org = on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote:

    Hi, LSR = experts:

    We have uploaded the new version of this = PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the = followings:
    1) Describes the solution that using tunnel = to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA = limit.
    2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing = black hole.
    3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements = for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS.

    There are also some = arguments about the current solution for PUA, for example:
  =   1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" = sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable?
    = 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution?

    Wish to hear comments and suggestions on = the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF = LSR meeting.

    Best Regards

    = Aijun Wang
    China Telecom

    = -----Original Message-----
    From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
    Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 = AM
    To: Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Yaqun Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
    Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt


  =   A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt
    = has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository.

    Name:          =     =  draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement
    = Revision:   03
    Title:      =         Prefix Unreachable Announcement
  =   Document date:      2020-07-27
    = Group:              Individual = Submission
    Pages:          =     11
    URL:          =   https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-u= nreachable-annoucement-03.txt
    Status:        =  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unrea= chable-annoucement/
  =   Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachabl= e-annoucement-03
    = Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-= unreachable-annoucement
  =   Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-un= reachable-annoucement-03

    Abstract:
      =  This document describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce
       the unreachable prefixes for = service fast convergence.




    Please note = that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until = the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf..org.

    The IETF = Secretariat



    = _______________________________________________
    Lsr = mailing list
    Lsr@ietf.org
  =   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr<= span = lang=3DEN-GB>

_______________________________________________
L= sr mailing list
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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des =
informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent =
donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
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------=_NextPart_000_0286_01D665CB.008745C0-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 02:12:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAEE3A0898 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0IDpyPYpSd7i for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.223]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D358B3A0EF6 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:12:34 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.92:49493.1326555968 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-219.142.69.75?logid-56f78c9dcde84e07bf576c26aa65bd6e (unknown [172.18.0.92]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id C0EB72800C1; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:12:18 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.92]) by App0021 with ESMTP id 56f78c9dcde84e07bf576c26aa65bd6e for acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Wed Jul 29 17:12:12 2020 X-Transaction-ID: 56f78c9dcde84e07bf576c26aa65bd6e X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.92 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn From: "Aijun Wang" To: , "'Acee Lindem \(acee\)'" Cc: , "'Zhibo Hu'" , "'Yaqun Xiao'" References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:12:26 +0800 Message-ID: <028f01d66588$63761910$2a624b30$@chinatelecom.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0290_01D665CB.719BA300" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIFxVYWa52TS3+lleUCjv1WJLVErQIaJj8zAXrwE5wBP3ZfIqiY4XkA Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:12:48 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0290_01D665CB.719BA300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Robert: =20 Agree with you J =20 =20 Best Regards =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 From: robert@raszuk.net [mailto:robert@raszuk.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 5:18 PM To: Acee Lindem (acee) Cc: Aijun Wang ; lsr@ietf.org; Zhibo Hu = ; Yaqun Xiao Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt =20 Hello Acee, =20 I would like to question your assessment that signalling unreachable = routes is unnecessary.=20 =20 Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no failures area 1 = advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24 . = That block covers PE's loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those = loopbacks are also BGP next hops.=20 =20 Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well till = BGP reconverges all paths advertised by this PE with 1.1.1.1/32 = are still valid as this next hop is still reachable = entire network wide. That means that traffic is being sent to this = failed PE1 for relatively long period of time.=20 =20 It seems natural that without breaking benefits of summarization across = areas or domains in the above scenario we could continue to advertise = 1.1.1.0/24 - 1.1.1.1/32 . That = is when I see most benefits of advertising unreachability aka negative = routing.=20 =20 Of course said all of the above - if you search your employer's archives = - you will see a proposal where the above mechanism can be done within = BGP itself with no touch to the IGP - just using a bit of twisted next = hop validation steps and BGP native recursion. I am not going to make = any judgements here which method is better or easier - naturally I = personally like BGP one more :).=20 =20 But I hope this is clear why at least discussion on the subject is = important. It also illustrates why the below statement is not = necessarily correct:=20 =20 "Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only = relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. "=20 =20 Kind regards, Robert. =20 =20 On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) = > = wrote: Speaking as an LSR Working Group member: Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the = wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck = to drive off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS = with these complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to = address the requirement in your network design. Note that the = unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is = reachable through another ABR. In this case, the network design should = provide adequate intra-area redundancy to provide communications between = the ABRs. If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should = be established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone. Contrary = to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem as ABRs should add = back hole routes for their advertised summaries.=20 Acee =EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" = on behalf of = wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn > wrote: Hi, LSR experts: We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable = Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic = among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and = ISIS. There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, = for example: 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to = indicate the prefix is unreachable? 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible = solution? Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will = also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. Best Regards Aijun Wang China Telecom=20 -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org = [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org ]=20 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM To: Zhibo Hu >; = Aijun Wang >; = Yaqun Xiao > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement Revision: 03 Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement Document date: 2020-07-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 Abstract: This document describes the mechanism that can be used to = announce the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org . The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr ------=_NextPart_000_0290_01D665CB.719BA300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

H= i, Robert:

<= o:p> 

A= gree with you J<= o:p>

<= o:p> 

<= o:p> 

B= est Regards

<= o:p> 

A= ijun Wang

C= hina Telecom<= o:p>

<= o:p> 

From:<= /b> = robert@raszuk.net [mailto:robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Tuesday, = July 28, 2020 5:18 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) = <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Aijun Wang = <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; lsr@ietf.org; Zhibo Hu = <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Yaqun Xiao = <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version = Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

 

Hello Acee,

 

I would like to question your assessment that signalling = unreachable routes is = unnecessary. 

 

Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no failures = area 1 advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. That block covers PE's = loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those loopbacks are also BGP = next hops. 

 

Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well till BGP = reconverges all paths advertised by this PE with 1.1.1.1/32 are still valid as this next = hop is still reachable entire network wide. That means that traffic is = being sent to this failed PE1 for relatively long period of = time. 

 

It seems natural that without breaking benefits of = summarization across areas or domains in the above scenario we could = continue to advertise 1.1.1.0/24 - 1.1.1.1/32. That is when I see most = benefits of advertising unreachability aka negative = routing. 

 

Of course said all of the above - if you search your = employer's archives - you will see a proposal where the above = mechanism can be done within BGP itself with no touch to the IGP - = just using a bit of twisted next hop validation steps and BGP native = recursion. I am not going to make any judgements here which method is = better or easier - naturally I personally like BGP one more = :). 

 

But I hope this is clear why at least discussion on the = subject is important. It also illustrates why the below statement is not = necessarily correct: 

 

"Note that the unreachability of a given summarized = prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. = " 

 

Kind regards,
Robert.

 

 

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) = <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:

Speaking as an LSR Working Group member:

Asking the = WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the wrong = question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck to = drive off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS = with these complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to = address the requirement in your network design. Note that the = unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is = reachable through another ABR. In this case, the network design should = provide adequate intra-area redundancy to provide communications between = the ABRs. If this cannot be accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should = be established over a tunnel between the ABRs in the backbone. Contrary = to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a problem as ABRs should add = back hole routes for their advertised summaries. =

Acee

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun = Wang" <lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote:

  =   Hi, LSR experts:

    We have uploaded the new = version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main = updates are the followings:
    1) Describes the solution = that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches = the PUA limit.
    2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid = routing black hole.
    3) Defining PUA capabilities = announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS.

    There are = also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for = example:
    1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix = Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is = unreachable?
    2) if not, what's the consideration? = What's the other convincible solution?

    Wish to hear = comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also have the = presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting.

    Best = Regards

    Aijun Wang
    China Telecom =

    -----Original Message-----
    From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
    Sent: = Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM
    To: Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Yaqun Xiao <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>
    Subject: = New Version Notification for = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt


  =   A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt
    = has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository.

    Name:          =     =  draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement
    = Revision:   03
    Title:      =         Prefix Unreachable Announcement
  =   Document date:      2020-07-27
    = Group:              Individual = Submission
    Pages:          =     11
    URL:          =   https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-pre= fix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt
    Status:  =        https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-= unreachable-annoucement/
    Htmlized:    =    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unrea= chable-annoucement-03
    Htmlized:      =  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-pr= efix-unreachable-annoucement
    Diff:    =        https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-pref= ix-unreachable-annoucement-03

    = Abstract:
       This document describes the = mechanism that can be used to announce
       the = unreachable prefixes for service fast = convergence.




    Please note that it may = take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized = version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

    The IETF = Secretariat



    = _______________________________________________
    Lsr = mailing list
    Lsr@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

__= _____________________________________________
Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org
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------=_NextPart_000_0290_01D665CB.719BA300-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 02:13:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4473A089D for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yOgA_QYrs9YC for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6458E3A0898 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id q4so13653771edv.13 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:13:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mjvpYOqM4Di0HUFXgcTx/ZgB1Vmene4JdFqABNbBD3Q=; b=Tajb9/IX4yobxNEQCaF61SYHRJ1Vkkefw8OK/lm/1e/LsGY7Xnrxzp/fsgferW+Hfa apFFb02oo511IdE4cIpuxt4f8CiUEMgK4P0d2m1189HG4wURLvLyvHV0UWRYm6vGybz/ YA8jl5qOa8pfWyizq6byzKcYMNAiZTGLqUmkbr6SBlBFh0W0JX4893oFYX/nyLsekfRl L+K3h4WT9c7ilTtuostqUKLsA+htqJlAFFtOWJ2aAS/4z5nEx61ECAptPvz5XGVNpJKz /CY0xz2CCtUbl0b757WnUJCvJLeL6RGGkA3gVml+F7YGUL5M7lZueFoU6Ug/biHKhCRX K5WA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mjvpYOqM4Di0HUFXgcTx/ZgB1Vmene4JdFqABNbBD3Q=; b=CY0qfci6raJNzyxtXnjTaKRImDJENEkIjKsE+7P+M5hOaRACtVggnqfJYMfltSPi5S oAvBIQrRmlR9/Q+NGDWm9oVZ0TbSYRqyvkeo+rzTd2X0K6rAukwtPwZGM2bEb/zD7KxD /PavGF1YsnPvWJDC/WEvROUNZIoXZB1CRo19EG6HLwOTFAWNmO1AqDff96ZPxX7qp5c1 uK9lzMMsfepAyZkszOSW9/mvmNoyGLfhzdR8HtBhi79OSw+7cr/0tBbwmOa0EVHrizzF PAxUBNhld8wueZ91g7K/CMxNBxNuGRF9878UrrGED5tZ96PH7IrdPEQVlA+kjaymeHFg YHZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530NcETlWVPlWUvINiJHTStHWZt/MOs2RHcjk11aJtB3KgCkugHj n2T6lR3wH0QcGKAdN2pZ7bighquov5kBtGWp87F/hQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmIMRjxAxgxHpd8dfWF+p7AaSMQNpDgCeLvV56Occ92ZsJQWZm/LpEzl1n757xIMiuXfvLXCw+tAOky36cR/c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:a5b:: with SMTP id bt27mr14037370edb.120.1596014024886; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:13:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159581253012.15882.18408845608624077923@ietfa.amsl.com> <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF712922@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF712922@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:13:34 +0200 Message-ID: To: Huzhibo Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Aijun Wang , "lsr@ietf.org" , Xiaoyaqun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002963705ab90f917" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:13:52 -0000 --00000000000002963705ab90f917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure I follow your below comment or how it relates to my deployment scenario ... I specifically said that 1.1.1.1/32 will be a negative route (there is "-" minus there) advertised in BGP. If you mean that reception of negative routes in the presence of summary requires changes to RIB route tracking (or local RIB twist) it sure does. Thx, R. On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:07 AM Huzhibo wrote: > Hi Robert: > > > > BGP next hop validation can solve some but not all problems. In your > example, if PE1 has learned only 1.1.1.0/24 but not 1.1.1.1/32, BGP > cannot detect the reachability of 1.1.1.1/32. > > > > Thanks > > > > Zhibo Hu > > *From:* Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2020 5:18 PM > *To:* Acee Lindem (acee) > *Cc:* Aijun Wang ; lsr@ietf.org; Huzhibo < > huzhibo@huawei.com>; Xiaoyaqun > *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > > > > Hello Acee, > > > > I would like to question your assessment that signalling unreachable > routes is unnecessary. > > > > Imagine hierarchical network with areas. Under no failures area 1 > advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. That block covers PE's > loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those loopbacks are also BGP ne= xt > hops. > > > > Now imagine PE1 with 1.1.1.1/32 fails. Well till BGP reconverges all > paths advertised by this PE with 1.1.1.1/32 are still valid as this next > hop is still reachable entire network wide. That means that traffic is > being sent to this failed PE1 for relatively long period of time. > > > > It seems natural that without breaking benefits of summarization across > areas or domains in the above scenario we could continue to advertise > 1.1.1.0/24 - 1.1.1.1/32. That is when I see most benefits of advertising > unreachability aka negative routing. > > > > Of course said all of the above - if you search your employer's archives = - > you will see a proposal where the above mechanism can be done within BGP > itself with no touch to the IGP - just using a bit of twisted next hop > validation steps and BGP native recursion. I am not going to make any > judgements here which method is better or easier - naturally I personally > like BGP one more :). > > > > But I hope this is clear why at least discussion on the subject is > important. It also illustrates why the below statement is not > necessarily correct: > > > > "Note that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only > relevant if it is reachable through another ABR. " > > > > Kind regards, > Robert. > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Acee Lindem (acee) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Speaking as an LSR Working Group member: > > Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the > wrong question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck = to > drive off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with > these complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to address t= he > requirement in your network design. Note that the unreachability of a giv= en > summarized prefix is only relevant if it is reachable through another ABR= . > In this case, the network design should provide adequate intra-area > redundancy to provide communications between the ABRs. If this cannot be > accomplished, an intra-area adjacency should be established over a tunnel > between the ABRs in the backbone. Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is > normally not a problem as ABRs should add back hole routes for their > advertised summaries. > > Acee > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Aijun Wang" on behalf of wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn> wrote: > > Hi, LSR experts: > > We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable > Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: > 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among > ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. > 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. > 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS= . > > There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for > example: > 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to > indicate the prefix is unreachable? > 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible > solution? > > Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will > also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. > > Best Regards > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM > To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; > Yaqun Xiao > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > > > A new version of I-D, > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement > Revision: 03 > Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement > Document date: 2020-07-27 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 11 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-an= noucement-03.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement= -03 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-ann= oucement-03 > > Abstract: > This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce > the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > --00000000000002963705ab90f917 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --000000000000fed7ba05aba9832f-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 07:34:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022AE3A1198 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1LUUpL2nZCA0 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71B9A3A1195 for ; 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d="scan'208";a="28352756" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Jul 2020 14:34:07 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 06UEY6Wx012230; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:34:06 GMT To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Huzhibo , Aijun Wang , lsr , Aijun Wang , Xiaoyaqun References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> <2a6844df-59ed-ca91-c306-d2288c44a1dc@cisco.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <9fa84c34-e3f5-42bd-2b6b-20a114acf3b3@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:34:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:34:14 -0000 On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Peter, > > Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind that BGP > say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE in > other domain or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP. > > So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at risk to resolve via > less specific when it is still active BGP path and you too quickly > remove info about unreachability. again, if you are smart you can use this info to your advantage, even without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the less specific stuff intact. Peter > > Thx > R. > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak > wrote: > > On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote: > >      > 2：For bgp example，when the pe node down，the bgp peer > must down > >     within > >      > 30 mintus，It will not get it up via cancle advertise pua. > > > >     for the above it is sufficient to advertise the > unreachability for few > >     seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much > more solid > >     proposal. > > > > > > Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of > > implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure. > > depends how you use it. > > If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's sufficient if > it is present for a very short time interval. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > From nobody Thu Jul 30 09:03:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC293A0AE9 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: 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PjwvZm9udD4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_C91D812F83194FA09F1D7AFA548D0985_-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 09:10:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2D63A0BD5 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHdHYDAj081Q for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B1D3A0BE3 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9F4016166F; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:09:29 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F5B6BF54-DDB1-4E1C-8CFB-C4C34ED0931B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:09:28 -0400 Cc: Christian Hopps To: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] Gather town hallway chats. X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:10:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F5B6BF54-DDB1-4E1C-8CFB-C4C34ED0931B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, If anyone would like to have a post meeting hallway chat now that our = meeting slot has ended, I'll be hanging out in the IETF gather.town for = the next 20 minutes or so. Thanks, Chris. --Apple-Mail=_F5B6BF54-DDB1-4E1C-8CFB-C4C34ED0931B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8i8LgACgkQLh2DDte4 MCU2DQ//ZH9V7Q1pXAOiQbl4+JIU1aL1Z9LQYYvdUFEQRgSzukTJYey0/yMe94Xf sGtaSO3JMQYsrErgvjb2WiwJ/ldQeSSWo/CYgdISz5MpAmWJYQfGdTPLttk7bkXY Ox6C8G42RTMzYYf/ydV6V4hhmNzvuDyv69GV4Cw3Q98apaiLH1clh6xJpgIu6D7W gUAujLDPnSNkACn8R4l81UWnAyNbE/sx9GTAnE6F3zHu5+wi7ZvGIcGrfgUahPmA 7UOjIpsKdYJ5tU0Fy6jD3cT8PTOUawY4nzj/+s1/DpP4qF0zVkT+rDl6P8h2iZBh 38tXm3Ld0dzbUEOBRj+DLNWmtnWwtXJGyFFsZHrSCrHJHo62tbGCsVXxsA49kV35 R3aRI6iVjwUiubyz50fO4vS2X0XIm1eO3DL58yDLls5vGKmMwQmbGWIHXKxqDiQ1 Rb+pjehnKLEpXqlClqmWF8SAbiqb10gBMmBC8kDX7ZQX/TzYGtEcFM2EVz/x+ygt I9tTHIdxVgtf+LTkP0jW85gZA7YSsjmzIySFnJEJyjYclCF4FBRJMht/I8hWBIEY Bo4nFf68PdhzynTHyofXiRN2Pc5y5n1dcLh8AxJdRqq6GO9CpRtITMnzGJdXbFs/ UHBc2b3JupAqur58HFW2fQuIPo6BHLSaidnA8D+sIbGJ8gsK0bE= =VpZi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F5B6BF54-DDB1-4E1C-8CFB-C4C34ED0931B-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 09:14:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FEB3A0BC2 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PeUzEP3WrdLE for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273C63A0BB6 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ACC8D61669; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:14:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Christian Hopps Message-Id: <6D542932-9809-4A24-9771-E63C993C78F4@chopps.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_193EE410-ED4D-49C5-86D2-46528E07DFB4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:14:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Hopps To: lsr@ietf.org References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Gather town hallway chats. X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:14:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_193EE410-ED4D-49C5-86D2-46528E07DFB4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41E788BE-CE57-409D-BBF2-887B1A5DCDD9" --Apple-Mail=_41E788BE-CE57-409D-BBF2-887B1A5DCDD9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For the curious To join gather.town goto the IETF 108 page: = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/108/ = and click "Join Gather". Thanks, Chris. > On Jul 30, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Christian Hopps = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > If anyone would like to have a post meeting hallway chat now that our = meeting slot has ended, I'll be hanging out in the IETF gather.town for = the next 20 minutes or so. >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. --Apple-Mail=_41E788BE-CE57-409D-BBF2-887B1A5DCDD9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii For = the curious

To join = gather.town goto the IETF 108 page: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/108/
and = click "Join Gather".

Thanks,
Chris.

On Jul = 30, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> = wrote:

Hi,

If anyone would like to have a post meeting = hallway chat now that our meeting slot has ended, I'll be hanging out in = the IETF gather.town for the next 20 minutes or so.

Thanks,
Chris.

= --Apple-Mail=_41E788BE-CE57-409D-BBF2-887B1A5DCDD9-- --Apple-Mail=_193EE410-ED4D-49C5-86D2-46528E07DFB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEm56yH/NF+m1FHa6lLh2DDte4MCUFAl8i8cwACgkQLh2DDte4 MCXYtQ/+KBSPrz4iY4mazJUCpVdCpSrqFv8CNWSzI3cf+LRDdY0c24gI658HtsL1 iTSf6MDxVmq8Fh55GEm0TORmh9X5F0gZdZQa5G/2+82XwzCiBh7hrDaRYVEF/0MW u2yvoPsbN1av2bCrSYT8sd61y8Ijj06QHwl+SYC53GDYnuk+A7Z1KCdIpTYNOe+0 9kKNzhkZtFDJojwg0HfEfZMmH8z0Z5dlerZrx4PYrGnbVAoKj8mH/OASoC23ohZf VIcvINg0MyIpoB/UMYe09620A/l8UUl9ki5ZVKq3RXKxC8s++74xgrsm1WtUMJkg AX4pxycVefA+AB97FFiKblpS4t5l/HuTrAG8h9tArKoKHqYcpKXYOG8bfgqA4Bep 2atJ+G/Fjch6/OwZZSRAJRdPN1y4xEc+reaIU/yQTUt8yWCahNVSTL1pABu9+YAQ +fsAEEyfdfNia327iGKIkkPoLzVBTCoEtlKrMOhz8vayzQz9lw8UxlUUw0bM4GYW +9rtg3UVUSjMlR9CXvvdFPsjzGhkEEoVoXVCUfiNbtoWZfLws4ZZB7aVuu0ltjxL YlpLuey1t0QC/VN+Y8OnyB9zNXCbRXxUzmAUjZIgG0h5dL5LUpJ86ucnxPG3OQZ8 9vnXbR5+aP16sZDKDyaFJFBw4CqgTzcRwJaqeolwXfSCXb6PW/8= =B8ih -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_193EE410-ED4D-49C5-86D2-46528E07DFB4-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 09:17:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFC73A0BB6 for ; 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d="scan'208";a="28354834" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Jul 2020 16:17:47 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 06UGHkEH032615; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:17:47 GMT To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Robert Raszuk Cc: Aijun Wang , Xiaoyaqun , Huzhibo , Aijun Wang , lsr References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> <2a6844df-59ed-ca91-c306-d2288c44a1dc@cisco.com> <9fa84c34-e3f5-42bd-2b6b-20a114acf3b3@cisco.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <90eec7d2-301a-0762-6a5c-606c142548cd@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 18:17:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:17:54 -0000 On 30/07/2020 18:03, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > So, how do we define a reachable route - is it any route subsumed by the summary LSA that we knew about in the past that becomes unreachable? When the PUA is withdrawn, how do we know whether it is because of expiration of the interval or the route becoming reachable again? This is a slippery slope. I'm not suggesting the unreachable stuff to affect forwarding in any way. thanks, Peter > Thanks, > Acee > > On 7/30/20, 10:34 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" wrote: > > On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hey Peter, > > > > Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind that BGP > > say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE in > > other domain or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP. > > > > So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at risk to resolve via > > less specific when it is still active BGP path and you too quickly > > remove info about unreachability. > > again, if you are smart you can use this info to your advantage, even > without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the less specific stuff > intact. > > Peter > > > > > > Thx > > R. > > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak > > wrote: > > > > On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > 2：For bgp example，when the pe node down，the bgp peer > > must down > > > within > > > > 30 mintus，It will not get it up via cancle advertise pua. > > > > > > for the above it is sufficient to advertise the > > unreachability for few > > > seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much > > more solid > > > proposal. > > > > > > > > > Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of > > > implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure. > > > > depends how you use it. > > > > If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's sufficient if > > it is present for a very short time interval. > > > > thanks, > > Peter > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > R. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > From nobody Thu Jul 30 09:18:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C46B3A0C33 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XoiBGmnofy1J for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C7E3A0BF2 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id a14so3396632edx.7 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:17:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MBK7jFXS+ir10q5neiPnrGA6QYA8+1YlfxHW7xrnXws=; b=FS0scENnhSZ9ut9sQiTShAzJIyAIuV0RYrFcz0jjVkzWwOBSp3RPTIfHzgBQbJZfqE +2at1XVLPE90ZRtdmGVuFgARfNnjoVxr0/8+0ZDOq5CvFuHH2/4b9ASHYD/XOj7i/8pa YGwTNZ4c7K+lNs+DnDaObxT/GuzinwODZYp/5y7QeBLdz4/cKY1frbT0ytTtF0AcAKtm h0mWk9bBt7gNQmms7Jq3j4tr9R9tmazExzmJNIMqg3KrIsBL4DEVI0u7p/H8Nc/RHFGm IQdN5AOiCPLBWSCh9BHLvpkxLbRhntGh+WSeQYwtnGwjxb16/5xu85Bh9bUjT8ktEbF5 ageQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MBK7jFXS+ir10q5neiPnrGA6QYA8+1YlfxHW7xrnXws=; b=Xz5LGTfxF+POfvlDL83xfWQA/y/NtmN95LyCtVK72pGvPeq/ENMJjFkDFj62W7l3CX wrNe2Z/PLc8srb1atlSqm5CDCe0X1I0iUQ6O0s41E0v5TDVcL4pQuJtCoLUe+q4/aDHi jOvBIoWzcW5s6vefnn9m9GsXzW+F3PmlDbRGFMEj21Lle7HB8e3dZffUlGN9QdOsMrlg iEJ2aZHG9VNXF8j7vxPIGOOgnwofSPOeyKUhrW5YzYukuoLhGnq5MVM2R4O1tkxrIwPp 06EfSEK6WZY3/Wqi6+YMn6vkcn54pC5Aj+AbG3ghz67NSuOfCTG0HvXoRy+J61DppRFg d0uQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rbyzFRaROVdq1N07AvzmUBic/EYxEWPfUU0+YuylXsM16Z+2W Lf+Lci1VBxodBIyYqlTJxxni5BRFqif6hLLJSGPHSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw0sWZAkwfJkMIGsNKh8OsCS9lu4zhJdGEpbkyX2RI81JiiiBcnkLDxHl20eAoLs7styvFJOZfipgRXGqZN9MI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1d25:: with SMTP id dh5mr3334892edb.266.1596125876399; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:17:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> <2a6844df-59ed-ca91-c306-d2288c44a1dc@cisco.com> <9fa84c34-e3f5-42bd-2b6b-20a114acf3b3@cisco.com> <5f22f096.1c69fb81.2dcdc.73beSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <5f22f096.1c69fb81.2dcdc.73beSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 18:17:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: Huzhibo Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Peter Psenak , Aijun Wang , Xiaoyaqun , Aijun Wang , lsr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e142bc05abab0339" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:18:08 -0000 --000000000000e142bc05abab0339 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Imagine I have two ABRs connecting area 1 to area 0. One is signalling transition to down for subset of summary and the other does not .. maybe it is slow ... maybe it does not support this new feature. So all routers in the area 0 are receiving a full summary from one ABR and a summary with hole from the other one. Should that be logical AND or OR ? Then on the other side there is area 2. Should the transition to down be leaked ? If so in a nicely stable network we may see instead of few /20 summaries jump to 1M transitions to down yet summary continues - would that not have a bit negative effect on the entire network ? Where would ABR remove summary itself - when all atomic routes subsumed by the summary transition to down ? - - - I am supportive of the idea to signal unreachable network elements. But I am not sure if we should do it in IGP and BGP or only in BGP. Thx, R. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 6:08 PM Huzhibo wrote: > HI acee=EF=BC=9A > > PUA does not advertise reachable or unreachable details, it advertise > events with prefix from up to down. > > > thanks > > Zhibo > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > =E8=83=A1=E5=BF=97=E6=B3=A2 Hu Zhibo > Mobile: +86-18618192287 > Email: huzhibo@huawei.com > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Acee Lindem (acee) > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Peter Psenak ;Robert Raszuk < > robert@raszuk.net> > *=E6=8A=84 =E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A*Aijun Wang ;Xiaoya= qun ;Huzhibo > ;Aijun Wang ;lsr < > lsr@ietf.org> > *=E6=97=B6 =E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A*2020-07-31 00:04:02 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A*Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > > So, how do we define a reachable route - is it any route subsumed by the > summary LSA that we knew about in the past that becomes unreachable? When > the PUA is withdrawn, how do we know whether it is because of expiration = of > the interval or the route becoming reachable again? This is a slippery > slope. > Thanks, > Acee > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/30/20, 10:34 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" < > lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of ppsenak=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > wrote: > > On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hey Peter, > > > > Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind that > BGP > > say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE i= n > > other domain or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP. > > > > So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at risk to resolv= e > via > > less specific when it is still active BGP path and you too quickly > > remove info about unreachability. > > again, if you are smart you can use this info to your advantage, even > without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the less specific > stuff > intact. > > Peter > > > > > > Thx > > R. > > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak > >> wrote: > > > > On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe node do= wn=EF=BC=8Cthe bgp peer > > must down > > > within > > > > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle ad= vertise > pua. > > > > > > for the above it is sufficient to advertise the > > unreachability for few > > > seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a muc= h > > more solid > > > proposal. > > > > > > > > > Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in numbe= r > of > > > implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work > for sure. > > > > depends how you use it. > > > > If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's > sufficient if > > it is present for a very short time interval. > > > > thanks, > > Peter > > > > > > > > Thx, > > > R. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > --000000000000e142bc05abab0339 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Imagine I have two ABRs connecting = area=C2=A01 to area 0. One is signalling transition to down for subset of s= ummary and the other does not .. maybe it is slow ... maybe it does not sup= port this new feature.=C2=A0

So all routers in the= area 0 are receiving a full summary from one ABR and a summary with hole f= rom the other one. Should that be logical AND or OR ?=C2=A0

<= /div>
Then on the other side there is area 2. Should the transition=C2= =A0to down be leaked ? If so in a nicely stable network we may see instead = of few /20 summaries jump to 1M transitions to down yet summary continues -= would that not have a bit negative effect on the entire network ? Where wo= uld ABR remove summary=C2=A0itself - when all atomic routes subsumed by the= summary transition to down ?=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

I am supportive of the idea to signal unreachable ne= twork elements. But I am not sure if we should do it in IGP and BGP or only= in BGP.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On T= hu, Jul 30, 2020 at 6:08 PM Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> wrote:

HI acee=EF=BC=9A

PUA does not advertise reachable or unreachable details= , it advertise events with prefix from up to down.


thanks

Zhibo




--------------------------------------------------
=E8=83=A1=E5=BF=97=E6=B3=A2 Hu Zhibo
Mobile: +86-18618192287
Email: huzhibo@huaw= ei.com

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A= Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A= Peter Psenak <ppsenak=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&= gt;
=E6=8A=84=E2=80=83=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A= Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>;Xiaoyaqun <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>;Huzhibo <= huzhibo@huawei.com<= /a>>;Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>;lsr <lsr@ietf.org>
=E6=97=B6=E2=80=83=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A= 2020-07-31 00:04:02
=E4=B8=BB=E2=80=83=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A= Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachabl= e-annoucement-03.txt

So, how do we define a reachable route - is it any route subsumed by t= he summary LSA that we knew about in the past that becomes unreachable? Whe= n the PUA is withdrawn, how do we know whether it is because of expiration = of the interval or the route becoming reachable again? This is a slippery slope.
Thanks,
Acee

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/30/20, 10:34 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" &l= t;lsr-bounces@iet= f.org on behalf of ppsenak=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Hey Peter,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Not sure how smart you really want to be here but k= eep in mind that BGP
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > say option C may never hear about it all the way to= the egress PE in
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > other domain or area ... It is almost always incong= ruent with IGP.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be a= t risk to resolve via
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > less specific when it is still active BGP path and = you too quickly
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > remove info about unreachability.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 again, if you are smart you can use this info to your ad= vantage, even
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the les= s specific stuff
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 intact.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Peter


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Thx
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > R.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>> wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert= Raszuk wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe node dow= n=EF=BC=8Cthe bgp peer
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 must down
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 within
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle adv= ertise pua.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 for the above it is sufficient to advertise the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 unreachability for few
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 more solid
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 proposal.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Not sure about &= quot;few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > implementations = is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 depends how you use it.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you can use the unreacha= ble info in a smart way, it's sufficient if
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it is present for a very sh= ort time interval.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 thanks,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Peter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > Thx,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > R.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lsr mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lsr@ie= tf.org
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
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boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03814OPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:22:20 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03814OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVG9ueSwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgdXBkYXRlZCBkcmFmdC4NCg0K4oCcIFRoZSBBcmVh IFNJRCBTdWItVExWIGFsbG93cyB0aGUgQXJlYSBMZWFkZXIgdG8gYWR2ZXJ0aXNlIGEgU0lEIHRo YXQNCiAgIHJlcHJlc2VudHMgdGhlIGVudGlyZXR5IG9mIHRoZSBJbnNpZGUgQXJlYSB0byB0aGUg T3V0c2lkZSBBcmVhLiAgVGhpcw0KICAgc3ViLVRMViBpcyBsZWFybmVkIGJ5IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUg SW5zaWRlIEVkZ2UgTm9kZXMgd2hvIHNob3VsZCBjb25zdW1lDQogICB0aGlzIFNJRCBhdCBmb3J3 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QgBtJ1--qPBY for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E0C63A0B34 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.7]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4BHbrg56Wrz30Fd for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 18:45:55 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1596127555; bh=9sBRpLQlD5ODj5LQ+Cc03nsBhUKn6/64sM66xIOy7e0=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=YzVD8u6as9TfW1iWbPEKjRgEStjF09QbgS61r25HAoRxEJJ+5BgZXcNxyYbFHLrIA jCLTVIvfPd0lis5WyFv+svZR0S2UrjKHveuUnCSSiOepCxI+KBBUwKlDNV2lAxI6V9 Aj1ORDLeU0eUWs1qLNHbKMbp69SEIltqs21RMrP50h6avHSmmvcFv0yk3s/5MhMosI 5yTEi1BxlGNjSrUoO0s0zBOhGPCDIvJAsC4i7GzW9e9Y7aj94bYgmtORFjZTRRG65D 6eTht9HOKCH7ygBJsOInrO6D7he+teW5D16h+I9fL9UYaLfzR57TShyoiuyC8mrhr7 iHxouNRSykLzA== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.57]) by opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4BHbrg4DlQz2xCC for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 18:45:55 +0200 (CEST) From: To: "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 Thread-Index: AdZmjc89KP8vS0zORxmjtu3Zfqw4mQ== Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:45:54 +0000 Message-ID: <1656_1596127555_5F22F943_1656_24_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03919@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03919OPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsr] draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:46:00 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03919OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi authors, Please find below some feedback for information. Feel free to ignore. 4.4.13. The Area SID https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area= -proxy-02#section-4.4.13 "The following extensions to the Binding TLV are defined in order to support Area SID: A new flag is defined: T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area. (Bit 5) When T-flag is set: M and A flag MUST be clear" My understanding is that the Area SID is installed in the FIB of all inside= edge routers. Based on this, I would argue that the A flag could and SHOU= LD be set https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-flags-2 "A-Flag: Attached Flag. The originator of the SID/Label Binding TLV MAY set= the A bit in order to signal that the prefixes and SIDs advertised in the = SID/Label Binding TLV are directly connected to their originators." --- 4.4.7. Reachability TLVs https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis= -area-proxy-02#section-4.4.7 If the Inside Area supports Segment Routing and the selected TLV includes a Prefix Segment Identifier sub-TLV (3) [RFC8667], then the sub-TLV SHOULD be copied as well. The P-Flag SHOULD be set in the copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that penultimate hop popping SHOULD NOT be performed for this prefix. The E-Flag SHOULD be reset in the copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that an explicit NULL is not required. The R-Flag SHOULD simply be copied. May be it would be more generic to say that those prefix are handled as red= istributed prefix. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#section-2.1.2 and https://www.r= fc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#EANDPFLAGS already defines the behaviour for= respectively Prefix-SID propagation and P and E flags handling, so probabl= y no need to re-specify: When propagating (from either Level-1 to Level-2 or Level-2 to Level-1) a r= eachability advertisement originated by another IS-IS speaker, the router M= UST set the P-Flag and MUST clear the E-Flag of the related Prefix-SIDs. That would also cover for the handling of Prefix Attribute Flags sub-TLV RF= C7794. I would argue that the R-Flag MUST be set (rather than simply copied). As p= er https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-r-flag-and-n-flag Best regards, --Bruno ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03919OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi authors,=

 

Please find below some feedback for information. Feel free to ignore.

 

4.4.13.  The Area SID  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02#sectio= n-4.4.13

 

 &n= bsp; “The following extensions to the Binding TLV are defined in or= der to

 &n= bsp; support Area SID:

 

 &n= bsp;    A new flag is defined:

 

 &n= bsp;       T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area.  (Bit 5)

 

 &n= bsp;       When T-flag is set:

 

 &n= bsp;          M and A flag MUST be clear”

 

My understanding is that the Area SID is installed in the FIB of all ins= ide edge routers. Based on this, I would argue that the  A flag could and SHOULD be set

 

htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-flags-2=

“A-Flag: Attached Flag. The originator of the SID/Label Binding TLV MAY set the A b= it in order to signal that the prefixes and SIDs advertised in the SID/Labe= l Binding TLV are directly connected to their originators.”

---=

4.4.7.  Reachability TLVs   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-0= 2#section-4.4.7

 

   If the Inside Area supports Segment R=
outing and the selected TLV
   includes a Prefix Segment Identifier =
sub-TLV (3) [RFC8667], then the=

   sub-TLV SHOULD be copied as well. The=
 P-Flag SHOULD be set in the
   copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that =
penultimate hop popping SHOULD
   NOT be performed for this prefix.  The E-Flag SHOULD be reset in th=
e
   copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that =
an explicit NULL is not
   required. The R-Flag SHOULD simply be=
 copied.
 
 

May be i= t would be more generic to say that those prefix are handled as redistributed prefix.

https://www.= rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#section-2.1.2 and htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#EANDPFLAGS already defines the= behaviour for respectively Prefix-SID propagation and P and E flags handli= ng, so probably no need to re-specify:

When propagating (= from either Level-1 to Level-2 or Level-2 to Level-1) a reachability advertisement originated by another IS-IS speaker, the router MUST set the= P-Flag and MUST clear the E-Flag of the related Prefix-SIDs.

That wou= ld also cover for the handling of Prefix Attribute Flags sub-TLV RFC7794.

&nb= sp;

I would = argue that the R-Flag MUST be set (rather than simply copied). As per https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-r-flag-and-n-flag=

&nb= sp;

Best reg= ards,

--Bruno<= o:p>

&nb= sp;

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

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bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5F33EBC8-CC61-4DC9-9AA1-73F463CB8CD4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:39:26 -0700 In-Reply-To: <23641_1596126124_5F22F3AC_23641_95_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03814@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" To: bruno.decraene@orange.com References: <159572796513.12445.6949559311624487038@ietfa.amsl.com> <5527A777-4FBC-4EA6-8284-E7771DE2E733@tony.li> <23641_1596126124_5F22F3AC_23641_95_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03814@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:39:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5F33EBC8-CC61-4DC9-9AA1-73F463CB8CD4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Bruno, Thank you for your comments. > On Jul 30, 2020, at 9:22 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: >=20 > Hi Tony, > =20 > Thanks for the updated draft. > =20 > =E2=80=9C The Area SID Sub-TLV allows the Area Leader to advertise a = SID that > represents the entirety of the Inside Area to the Outside Area. = This > sub-TLV is learned by all of the Inside Edge Nodes who should = consume > this SID at forwarding time.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Excellent, from my perspective. > =20 > =C3=98 - The Area Segment SID TLV has been replaced by extending the = Binding SID TLV. > =20 > =E2=80=9CWhen SR is enabled, it may be useful to advertise an Area SID = which > will direct traffic to any of the Inside Edge Routers. The = Binding/ > MT Binding TLVs described in RFC 8667 Section=C2=A02.4 = are used to > advertise such a SID. > =20 > The following extensions to the Binding TLV are defined in order to > support Area SID: > =20 > A new flag is defined: > =20 > T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area. (Bit 5) =C2=BB > =20 > =20 > This works. Excellent. > However I may have a different deployment environment than the one you = have in mind. Even if those issues may be mine, allow me to share them = with you. > In many WAN networks than I=E2=80=99m used to, there are routers from = different vendors, platforms, software, generations. Requiring all those = routers to support the new Binding SID TLV T-Flag will take time. Some = platform may even be end of engineering (evolutions) so would never = support such new features. > In my environment, ideally, I would prefer a solution which do not = require any new feature on external L2 nodes, while all existing L2 = features keep working, in particular SR, SR-TE, TI-LFA, SR uloop = avoidance=E2=80=A6 This would require the Proxy LSP to be not = (significantly) different than the LSP of a vanilla L2 node. First off, the Area SID is 100% optional. If you choose not to use it, = then the Proxy LSP should be 100% compatible with a standard L2 node.=20 I cannot claim that we=E2=80=99ve exhaustively tested our implementation = against all of the features that you cite, so there may still be corner = cases, but our intent is to make that doable. For exaple, the Proxy LSP = can still contain a node SID, adjacency SID, and prefix SID as before. = There=E2=80=99s no change there. > For SR, I think that this would require this Proxy LSP to advertise a = Prefix/Node SID with the Area SID attached. One drawback is that a = Node-SID is advertised with an IP address that would need to be = provisioned. That=E2=80=99s certainly doable and requires no new protocol machinery. = If the WG prefers this mode of operation, I=E2=80=99m not opposed. =20 > Both approaches are not mutually exclusives. I=E2=80=99d be happy = enough with an option for the Proxy LSP to advertise an Area Node SID = with the Area SID attached. > =20 > Finally, there is no requirement to make me happy ;-) . The above = could also be a local implementation knob not mentioned in the draft. Our goal is to make as many customers as happy as possible. ;-) Tony --Apple-Mail=_5F33EBC8-CC61-4DC9-9AA1-73F463CB8CD4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Bruno,

Thank you for your comments.


On Jul 30, 2020, at 9:22 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:

Hi Tony,
 
Thanks for the updated draft.
 
=E2=80=9C The Area SID = Sub-TLV allows the Area Leader to advertise a SID that
   represents the = entirety of the Inside Area to the Outside Area.  This
   sub-TLV is learned = by all of the Inside Edge Nodes who should consume
   this SID at = forwarding time.=E2=80=9D
 
Excellent, from my perspective.
 
=C3=98  - The Area Segment SID TLV has been replaced = by extending the Binding SID TLV.
 
=E2=80=9CWhen SR is =
enabled, it may be useful to advertise an Area SID which
   will =
direct traffic to any of the Inside Edge Routers.  =
The Binding/
   MT Binding TLVs described in RFC 8667 Section 2.4 are used to
   advertise such a SID.
 
   The following extensions to the Binding =
TLV are defined in order to
   support Area SID:
 
      A new flag is =
defined:
 
         =
T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area.  =
(Bit 5) =C2=BB
 
 
This works.


Excellent.


However I may = have a different deployment environment than the one you have in mind. = Even if those issues may be mine, allow me to share them with you.
In many WAN = networks than I=E2=80=99m used to, there are routers from different = vendors, platforms, software, generations. Requiring all those routers = to support the new Binding SID TLV T-Flag will take time. Some platform = may even be end of engineering (evolutions) so would never support such = new features.
In my environment, ideally, I would prefer a solution which = do not require any new feature on external L2 nodes, while all existing = L2 features keep working, in particular SR, SR-TE, TI-LFA, SR uloop avoidance=E2=80=A6 This = would require the Proxy LSP to be not (significantly) different than the = LSP of a vanilla L2 node.


First off, the Area SID = is 100% optional. If you choose not to use it, then the Proxy LSP should = be 100% compatible with a standard L2 node. 

I cannot claim that we=E2=80=99ve exhaustively tested our = implementation against all of the features that you cite, so there may = still be corner cases, but our intent is to make that doable.  For = exaple, the Proxy LSP can still contain a node SID, adjacency SID, and = prefix SID as before. There=E2=80=99s no change there.


For SR, I think that this would require = this Proxy LSP to advertise a Prefix/Node SID with the Area SID = attached. One drawback is that a Node-SID is advertised with an IP = address that would need to be = provisioned.


That=E2=80=99s certainly = doable and requires no new protocol machinery. If the WG prefers this = mode of operation, I=E2=80=99m not opposed.

 
Both approaches are not mutually = exclusives. I=E2=80=99d be happy enough with an option for the Proxy LSP = to advertise an Area Node SID with the Area SID attached.
 
Finally, there is no requirement to make me happy ;-) . The = above could also be a local implementation knob not mentioned in the = draft.


Our goal is to make as many customers as happy as = possible.  ;-)

Tony
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Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:43:12 +0000 From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , "lsr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 Thread-Index: AdZmjc89KP8vS0zORxmjtu3Zfqw4mQACkkzg Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:43:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1656_1596127555_5F22F943_1656_24_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03919@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <1656_1596127555_5F22F943_1656_24_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03919@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: orange.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;orange.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2602:306:36ca:6640:3cd7:8618:5ab0:b1d5] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 397141e5-605e-4482-dc2c-08d834b00826 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB2743: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruno - Regarding the A-flag... It may not matter much whichever way we decide - but the A-flag was invente= d because at the time (prior to RFC 7794) there was no way to determine fro= m looking at a prefix reachability advertisement whether it was originated = by the advertising node or had been leaked from another area. If RFC 7794 had existed when the SR-MPLS draft was first being developed th= ere would have been no need for the A-flag. As regards Area-SID, there is no prefix to be leaked - so I do not see that= the A-flag serves any useful purpose. If you want it to be set just to be consistent with its use in PSP logic - = OK - but I think this is unnecessary. Les From: Lsr On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 9:46 AM To: lsr@ietf.org Subject: [Lsr] draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02 Hi authors, Please find below some feedback for information. Feel free to ignore. 4.4.13. The Area SID https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area= -proxy-02#section-4.4.13 "The following extensions to the Binding TLV are defined in order to support Area SID: A new flag is defined: T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area. (Bit 5) When T-flag is set: M and A flag MUST be clear" My understanding is that the Area SID is installed in the FIB of all inside= edge routers. Based on this, I would argue that the A flag could and SHOU= LD be set https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-flags-2 "A-Flag: Attached Flag. The originator of the SID/Label Binding TLV MAY set= the A bit in order to signal that the prefixes and SIDs advertised in the = SID/Label Binding TLV are directly connected to their originators." --- 4.4.7. Reachability TLVs https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis= -area-proxy-02#section-4.4.7 If the Inside Area supports Segment Routing and the selected TLV includes a Prefix Segment Identifier sub-TLV (3) [RFC8667], then the sub-TLV SHOULD be copied as well. The P-Flag SHOULD be set in the copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that penultimate hop popping SHOULD NOT be performed for this prefix. The E-Flag SHOULD be reset in the copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that an explicit NULL is not required. The R-Flag SHOULD simply be copied. May be it would be more generic to say that those prefix are handled as red= istributed prefix. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#section-2.1.2 and https://www.r= fc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#EANDPFLAGS already defines the behaviour for= respectively Prefix-SID propagation and P and E flags handling, so probabl= y no need to re-specify: When propagating (from either Level-1 to Level-2 or Level-2 to Level-1) a r= eachability advertisement originated by another IS-IS speaker, the router M= UST set the P-Flag and MUST clear the E-Flag of the related Prefix-SIDs. That would also cover for the handling of Prefix Attribute Flags sub-TLV RF= C7794. I would argue that the R-Flag MUST be set (rather than simply copied). As p= er https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-r-flag-and-n-flag Best regards, --Bruno ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_BY5PR11MB4337EA7134877D97C461063BC1710BY5PR11MB4337namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bruno –

 

Regarding the A-flag…

It may not matter much whichever way we decide ̵= 1; but the A-flag was invented because at the time (prior to RFC 7794) ther= e was no way to determine from looking at a prefix reachability advertiseme= nt whether it was originated by the advertising node or had been leaked from another area.

If RFC 7794 had existed when the SR-MPLS draft was f= irst being developed there would have been no need for the A-flag.

 

As regards Area-SID, there is no prefix to be leaked= – so I do not see that the A-flag serves any useful purpose.

If you want it to be set just to be consistent with = its use in PSP logic – OK – but I think this is unnecessary.

 

   Les

 

 

From: Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> On = Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 9:46 AM
To: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: [Lsr] draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02

 

Hi authors,

 

Please find below some feedback= for information. Feel free to ignore.

 

4.4.13.  The Area SID = ; https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02#section-4.4.1= 3

 

   “= ;The following extensions to the Binding TLV are defined in order to

   suppor= t Area SID:

 

   &= nbsp;  A new flag is defined:

 

   &= nbsp;     T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area.&n= bsp; (Bit 5)

 

   &= nbsp;     When T-flag is set:

 

   &= nbsp;        M and A flag MUST be clear&= #8221;

 

My understanding is that the Ar= ea SID is installed in the FIB of all inside edge routers. Based on this, I= would argue that the  A flag could and SHOULD be set

 

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc866= 7.html#name-flags-2

“A-Flag: Attached Flag. The originator of the SID/= Label Binding TLV MAY set the A bit in order to signal that the prefixes and SIDs advertised in the SID/Label Binding TLV are directly= connected to their originators.”

---<= /o:p>

4.4.7.  Reachability TLVs&= nbsp;  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02#section-4.4.7=

 

   If the Inside Area supports Segment =
Routing and the selected TLV
   includes a Prefix Segment Identifier=
 sub-TLV (3) [RFC8667], then the<=
o:p>
   sub-TLV SHOULD be copied as well. Th=
e P-Flag SHOULD be set in the
   copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that=
 penultimate hop popping SHOULD
   NOT be performed for this prefix.&nb=
sp; The E-Flag SHOULD be reset in the
   copy of the sub-TLV to indicate that=
 an explicit NULL is not
   required. The R-Flag SHOULD simply b=
e copied.
 
 

May be it= would be more generic to say that those prefix are handled as redistribute= d prefix.

https://www.= rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#section-2.1.2 and https://= www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#EANDPFLAGS already defines the beha= viour for respectively Prefix-SID propagation and P and E flags handling, s= o probably no need to re-specify:

When propagating (f= rom either Level-1 to Level-2 or Level-2 to Level-1) a reachability adverti= sement originated by another IS-IS speaker, the router MUST set the P-Flag and MUST clear the E-Flag of the related Prefix= -SIDs.<= /p>

That woul= d also cover for the handling of Prefix Attribute Flags sub-TLV RFC7794.

&nbs= p;

I would a= rgue that the R-Flag MUST be set (rather than simply copied). As per https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8667.html#name-r-flag-and-n-flag<= o:p>

&nbs= p;

Best rega= rds,

--Bruno

&nbs= p;

 

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
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08:16:26 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id 4236f5f278734d498f4625cc36ad6a3c for xiaoyaqun@huawei.com; Fri Jul 31 08:16:23 2020 X-Transaction-ID: 4236f5f278734d498f4625cc36ad6a3c X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2D2AA331-0821-47D5-A43D-1CF75C91666E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:16:39 +0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: Huzhibo , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Peter Psenak , Xiaoyaqun , Aijun Wang , lsr In-Reply-To: To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 00:16:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2D2AA331-0821-47D5-A43D-1CF75C91666E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Robert: Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Jul 31, 2020, at 00:23, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi, >=20 > Imagine I have two ABRs connecting area 1 to area 0. One is signalling tra= nsition to down for subset of summary and the other does not .. maybe it is s= low ... maybe it does not support this new feature.=20 >=20 > So all routers in the area 0 are receiving a full summary from one ABR and= a summary with hole from the other one. Should that be logical AND or OR ?=20= [WAJ] It should be OR. All routers in the area 0 should prefer to the ABR th= at not advertising PUA to forward traffic. >=20 > Then on the other side there is area 2. Should the transition to down be l= eaked ? [WAJ] The PUA should be leaked. > If so in a nicely stable network we may see instead of few /20 summaries j= ump to 1M transitions to down yet summary continues - would that not have a b= it negative effect on the entire network ? Where would ABR remove summary it= self - when all atomic routes subsumed by the summary transition to down ?=20= [WAJ] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachabl= e-annoucement-03#section-6 has described the extreme conditions for advertis= ing PUA+Summary, Detail Reachable Prefixes only, or Summary Address with Max= metric. Is there any other graceful advertising in these conditions?=20 >=20 > - - -=20 >=20 > I am supportive of the idea to signal unreachable network elements. But I a= m not sure if we should do it in IGP and BGP or only in BGP.=20 [WAJ] Such information is for underlay link state and should be flooded via I= GP? The ambiguity arises from IGP summary behavior and should be solved by i= tself? >=20 > Thx, > R. >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 6:08 PM Huzhibo wrote: >> HI acee=EF=BC=9A >>=20 >> PUA does not advertise reachable or unreachable details, it advertise eve= nts with prefix from up to down. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> thanks >>=20 >> Zhibo >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------- >> =E8=83=A1=E5=BF=97=E6=B3=A2 Hu Zhibo >> Mobile: +86-18618192287 >> Email: huzhibo@huawei.com >>=20 >> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AAcee Lindem (acee) >> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9APeter Psenak ;Robert Raszuk >> =E6=8A=84=E2=80=83=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9AAijun Wang ;= Xiaoyaqun ;Huzhibo ;Aijun Wang ;lsr >> =E6=97=B6=E2=80=83=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A2020-07-31 00:04:02 >> =E4=B8=BB=E2=80=83=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [Lsr] New Version Notification fo= r draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>=20 >> So, how do we define a reachable route - is it any route subsumed by the s= ummary LSA that we knew about in the past that becomes unreachable? When the= PUA is withdrawn, how do we know whether it is because of expiration of the= interval or the route becoming reachable again? This is a slippery slope.=20= >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 7/30/20, 10:34 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" wrote: >>=20 >> On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote: >> > Hey Peter, >> >=20 >> > Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind that= BGP=20 >> > say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE i= n=20 >> > other domain or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP. >> >=20 >> > So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at risk to resolv= e via=20 >> > less specific when it is still active BGP path and you too quickly=20= >> > remove info about unreachability. >>=20 >> again, if you are smart you can use this info to your advantage, even= =20 >> without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the less specific st= uff=20 >> intact. >>=20 >> Peter >>=20 >>=20 >> >=20 >> > Thx >> > R. >> >=20 >> > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak > > > wrote: >> >=20 >> > On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote: >> > > > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe node do= wn=EF=BC=8Cthe bgp peer >> > must down >> > > within >> > > > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle ad= vertise pua. >> > > >> > > for the above it is sufficient to advertise the >> > unreachability for few >> > > seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a muc= h >> > more solid >> > > proposal. >> > > >> > > >> > > Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in numbe= r of >> > > implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work f= or sure. >> >=20 >> > depends how you use it. >> >=20 >> > If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's suffic= ient if >> > it is present for a very short time interval. >> >=20 >> > thanks, >> > Peter >> >=20 >> > > >> > > Thx, >> > > R. >> > > >> >=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>=20 --Apple-Mail-2D2AA331-0821-47D5-A43D-1CF75C91666E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Robert:

Aijun W= ang
China Telecom

On Jul 31, 2020, at 00:23, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote= :

=EF=BB= =BF
Hi,

Imagine I have two ABRs connectin= g area 1 to area 0. One is signalling transition to down for subset of s= ummary and the other does not .. maybe it is slow ... maybe it does not supp= ort this new feature. 

So all routers in the a= rea 0 are receiving a full summary from one ABR and a summary with hole from= the other one. Should that be logical AND or OR ? 

[WAJ] It should be OR. All routers in the area 0 s= hould prefer to the ABR that not advertising PUA to forward traffic.

= Then on the other side there is area 2. Should the transition to down b= e leaked ?

[WAJ] The PUA should= be leaked.

If so in a nicely stable network we may see instead of few /20 sum= maries jump to 1M transitions to down yet summary continues - would that not= have a bit negative effect on the entire network ? Where would ABR remove s= ummary itself - when all atomic routes subsumed by the summary transiti= on to down ? 

[WAJ] <= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreac= hable-annoucement-03#section-6">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-= wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03#section-6 has described t= he extreme conditions for advertising PUA+Summary, Detail Reachable Prefixes= only, or Summary Address with Max metric.
Is there any other grac= eful advertising in these conditions? 


- - - 

I am supportive of the idea to signal unreachable netw= ork elements. But I am not sure if we should do it in IGP and BGP or only in= BGP. 

[WAJ] Such informat= ion is for underlay link state and should be flooded via IGP? The ambiguity a= rises from IGP summary behavior and should be solved by itself?

Thx,<= br>R.


On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 6:08 PM Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> wrote:

HI acee=EF=BC=9A

PUA does not advertise reachable or unreachable details,= it advertise events with prefix from up to down.


thanks

Zhibo




--------------------------------------------------
=E8=83=A1=E5=BF=97=E6=B3=A2 Hu Zhibo
Mobile: +86-18618192287
Email: huzhibo@huawe= i.com

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A<= /b>Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A<= /b>Peter Psenak <ppsenak=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>;Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
=E6=8A=84=E2=80=83=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A<= /b>Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>;Xiaoyaqun <xiaoyaqun@huawei.com>;Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com&g= t;;Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>;lsr <lsr@ietf.org>
=E6=97=B6=E2=80=83=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A<= /b>2020-07-31 00:04:02
=E4=B8=BB=E2=80=83=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A<= /b>Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-= annoucement-03.txt

So, how do we define a reachable route - is it any route subsumed by th= e summary LSA that we knew about in the past that becomes unreachable? When t= he PUA is withdrawn, how do we know whether it is because of expiration of t= he interval or the route becoming reachable again? This is a slippery slope.
Thanks,
Acee

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/30/20, 10:34 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" <lsr-bounces@ietf.org on b= ehalf of ppsenak=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote:
    > Hey Peter,
    >
    > Not sure how smart you really want to be here but ke= ep in mind that BGP
    > say option C may never hear about it all the way to t= he egress PE in
    > other domain or area ... It is almost always incongr= uent with IGP.
    >
    > So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at= risk to resolve via
    > less specific when it is still active BGP path and y= ou too quickly
    > remove info about unreachability.

    again, if you are smart you can use this info to your adv= antage, even
    without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the less= specific stuff
    intact.

    Peter


    >
    > Thx
    > R.
    >
    > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com     > <mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com>> wrote:
    >
    >     On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert R= aszuk wrote:
    >      >   =    > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe node down=EF= =BC=8Cthe bgp peer
    >     must down
    >      >   =   within
    >      >   =    > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle adverti= se pua.
    >      >
    >      >   =   for the above it is sufficient to advertise the
    >     unreachability for few
    >      >   =   seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much
    >     more solid
    >      >   =   proposal.
    >      >
    >      >
    >      > Not sure about "f= ew seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of
    >      > implementations i= s 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure.
    >
    >     depends how you use it.
    >
    >     If you can use the unreachab= le info in a smart way, it's sufficient if
    >     it is present for a very sho= rt time interval.
    >
    >     thanks,
    >     Peter
    >
    >      >
    >      > Thx,
    >      > R.
    >      >
    >

    _______________________________________________
    Lsr mailing list
    Lsr@iet= f.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
= --Apple-Mail-2D2AA331-0821-47D5-A43D-1CF75C91666E-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 17:37:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D04A3A12B9 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QAt3R8FwwJqi for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.226]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED72B3A12B7 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:37:34 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.218:30250.2024328591 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-106.121.165.28?logid-b3a20e58f8d840a6a8d56778dc0e08e4 (unknown [172.18.0.218]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id A0F8A280094; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:36:59 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id b3a20e58f8d840a6a8d56778dc0e08e4 for lsr@ietf.org; Fri Jul 31 08:37:04 2020 X-Transaction-ID: b3a20e58f8d840a6a8d56778dc0e08e4 X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:37:18 +0800 Message-Id: References: <01982402-26D7-4B32-9EE1-593EDB2EE3FA@cisco.com> Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Peter Psenak , Robert Raszuk , lsr , Huzhibo , Xiaoyaqun , Aijun Wang In-Reply-To: <01982402-26D7-4B32-9EE1-593EDB2EE3FA@cisco.com> To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 00:37:38 -0000 Hi, Acee: Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Jul 31, 2020, at 01:45, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/30/20, 1:31 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Acee Lindem (acee)" wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 7/30/20, 12:37 PM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" wrote: >=20 >> On 30/07/2020 18:03, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >> So, how do we define a reachable route - is it any route subsumed by the s= ummary LSA that we knew about in the past that becomes unreachable? When the= PUA is withdrawn, how do we know whether it is because of expiration of the= interval or the route becoming reachable again? This is a slippery slope. >=20 > I'm not suggesting the unreachable stuff to affect forwarding in an= y way. [WAJ] The ultimate aim of PUA is to notify the router to bypass the advertis= ing ABR. If not affecting the forwarding, how to avoid the traffic black hol= e? >=20 > That would be better. Also, as I stated offline, it would also be bette= r to use encodings that would be ignored by routers that don't support the e= xtension. I tried to dissuade the authors of PUA not to overload the prefix-= originator LSA but was unsuccessful.=20 >=20 [WAJ] We can discuss this later. > Of course, I meant prefix-originator Sub-TLV and the existing LSAs indicat= ing reachability - https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-prefix-origin= ator-06.txt >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 > thanks, > Peter >=20 >=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >> On 7/30/20, 10:34 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Peter Psenak" wrote: >>=20 >> On 30/07/2020 16:30, Robert Raszuk wrote: >>> Hey Peter, >>>=20 >>> Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind that BGP >>> say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE in >>> other domain or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP. >>>=20 >>> So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at risk to resolve via= >>> less specific when it is still active BGP path and you too quickly >>> remove info about unreachability. >>=20 >> again, if you are smart you can use this info to your advantage, even= >> without putting it in the forwarding and leaving the less specific st= uff >> intact. 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multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F04B5EOPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:16:37 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F04B5EOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TGVzLA0KDQpGcm9tOiBMZXMgR2luc2JlcmcgKGdpbnNiZXJnKSBbbWFpbHRvOmdpbnNiZXJnQGNp c2NvLmNvbV0NClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBKdWx5IDMwLCAyMDIwIDc6MjkgUE0NClRvOiBERUNS QUVORSBCcnVubyBUR0kvT0xOIDxicnVuby5kZWNyYWVuZUBvcmFuZ2UuY29tPjsgdG9ueS5saUB0 b255LmxpOyBsc3JAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbTHNyXSBGd2Q6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9u IE5vdGlmaWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sc3ItaXNpcy1hcmVhLXByb3h5LTAyLnR4dA0K 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Aijun Wang Cc: Huzhibo , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Peter Psenak , Xiaoyaqun , Aijun Wang , lsr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004878a805abba247d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:20:50 -0000 --0000000000004878a805abba247d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > [WAJ] Such information is for underlay link state and should be flooded > via IGP? The ambiguity arises from IGP summary behavior and should be > solved by itself? > Well if we look at this problem from a distance while on surface it seems like an IGP issue (not to mention some which use BGP as IGP :) IMO it is only hurting when you have some service overlay on top utilizing the IGP. So typically today if I am running any service with BGP I do count on BGP to remove routes which are no longer reachable. IGP just tells me how to get to the next hop, which direction to go and not if the endpoint (service CPE or PE connected to given CE) is up or down. So today smart BGP implementations in good network design can use RD based withdraws to very fast (milliseconds) remove the affected service routes. When I said should we do it in BGP I meant to ask WG if this is good enough to quickly remove service routes. If not maybe we should send such affected next hop in BGP to even faster invalidate all routes with such next hop as failing PE. Bottom line if you think the problem is IGP then I think Acee's comments apply. Last - See today you are bringing the case to signal transition to DOWN ... but for some people and applications it may be not enough. In fact UP/DOWN they can get via BGP. But if you have two ABRs and one will due to topology changes in its area suddenly will be forced to reach atomic destination covered by summary over much higher metric path that for applications running above may be much more severe case and not acceptable one too. And BGP will not remove service routes nor modify best path in any way as summary is masking the real metric to some next hops. So while in the network you may have alternate better native transit paths with a lot of free capacity if you only switch to a different bgp next hop (not talking about any TE at all) you are stuck offering much worse service to your customers. Those cases are starting to be solved by performance routing both at the service itself or at BGP nh levels. Should IGP assist here ... I am not sure. Many thx, R. --0000000000004878a805abba247d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[WAJ] Such information is for und= erlay link state and should be flooded via IGP? The ambiguity arises from I= GP summary behavior and should be solved by itself?

Well if we look at this problem from a distance while = on surface it seems like an IGP issue (not to mention some which use BGP as= IGP :) IMO it is only hurting when you have some service overlay on top ut= ilizing the IGP.=C2=A0

So typically today if I am = running any service with BGP I do count on BGP to remove routes which are n= o longer reachable. IGP just tells me how to get to the next hop, which dir= ection to go and not if the endpoint (service CPE or PE connected to given = CE) is up or down.=C2=A0

So today smart BGP implem= entations in good=C2=A0network=C2=A0design can use RD based withdraws to ve= ry fast (milliseconds) remove=C2=A0the affected service routes. When I said= should we do it in BGP I meant to ask WG if this=C2=A0is good enough to=C2= =A0quickly=C2=A0remove service routes. If not maybe we should send such aff= ected next hop in BGP to even faster invalidate all routes with such next h= op as failing PE.=C2=A0

Bottom line if you think t= he problem is IGP then I think Acee's comments apply.=C2=A0
<= br>
Last - See today you are bringing the case to signal transiti= on to DOWN ... but for some people and applications it may be not enough. I= n fact UP/DOWN they can get via BGP. But if you have two ABRs and one will = due to topology changes in its area suddenly will be forced to reach atomic= destination covered by summary over much higher metric path that for appli= cations running above may be much more severe case and not acceptable one t= oo.=C2=A0

And BGP will not remove service routes n= or modify best path in any way as summary is masking the real metric to som= e next hops. So while in the network you may have alternate better native t= ransit paths with a lot of free capacity if you only switch to a different = bgp next hop (not talking about any TE at all) you are stuck offering much = worse service to your customers.=C2=A0

Those cases= are starting to be solved by performance routing both at the service itsel= f or at BGP nh levels. Should IGP assist here ... I am not sure.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.
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boundary="_000_ZRAP278MB0125F7C42D94F1279CDC04B7894E0ZRAP278MB0125CHEP_" Content-Language: en-US --_000_ZRAP278MB0125F7C42D94F1279CDC04B7894E0ZRAP278MB0125CHEP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Hannes, Thanks a lot for the feedback. Yes, makes completely sense. Will take it fo= r the next update. Best Wishes Thomas From: Hannes Gredler Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 9:31 AM To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF Cc: lsr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsr] draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type Thomas, I have one comment/suggestion to Paragraph 4 (IANA Considerations). Please add also a code point for BGP Prefix-SID - it's quite popular in DC = deployments. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8669 thanks, /hannes On 28.07.2020, at 10:11, Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com wrote: Dear lsr, I presented the following draft Export of MPLS Segment Routing Label Type Information in IP Flow Informatio= n Export (IPFIX) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type-04 at the spring working group at IETF 108 yesterday https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-spring-ip-flow-infor= mation-export-ipfix-00.pdf and today at OPSAWG where I call for adoption. This draft adds additional segment routing code points for in the IANA IPFI= X registry for IS-IS, OPSFv2 and OPSF v3 and segment routing SID types to g= ain further insights into the MPLS-SR forwarding-plane. I have been asked to not only gather feedback from spring and opsawg but al= so from lsr and mpls working groups since these code points are related to = link state routing protocols and mpls data plane. I am looking forward to your feedback and input. Best Wishes Thomas Graf _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list Lsr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr --_000_ZRAP278MB0125F7C42D94F1279CDC04B7894E0ZRAP278MB0125CHEP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Hannes,

 

Thanks a lot for = the feedback. Yes, makes completely sense. Will take it for the next update= .

 =

Best Wishes<= /o:p>

Thomas=

 

 

From: Hannes Gredler <hannes@gredler.at>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 9:31 AM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-DCF <Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] draft-tgraf-ipfix-mpls-sr-label-type

 

Thomas,

 

I have one comment/suggestion to Paragraph 4 (IANA C= onsiderations).

 

Please add also a code point for BGP Prefix-SID - it= ’s quite popular in DC deployments.

 

thanks,

 

/hannes



On 28.07.2020, at 10:11, Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com wrote:

 

Dear lsr,

 

I presented the following draft=

 

Export of MPLS Segment Routing = Label Type Information in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)

 

at the spring working group at = IETF 108 yesterday

 

and today at OPSAWG where I cal= l for adoption.

 

This draft adds additional segm= ent routing code points for in the IANA IPFIX registry for IS-IS, OPSFv2 an= d OPSF v3 and segment routing SID types to gain further insights into the MPLS-SR forwarding-plane.

 

I have been asked to not only g= ather feedback from spring and opsawg but also from lsr and mpls working gr= oups since these code points are related to link state routing protocols and mpls data plane.

 

I am looking forward to your fe= edback and input.

 

Best Wishes

Thomas Graf

_______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list
Lsr@ietf.org<= /a>
https= ://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

 

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AOAM532cgEZ7MnTKOlyg/BBD8wmQsVuVrT9d4S32DiXOtrNpoBZ7CY2L wQPoBsZYNbUCbUawVao5Wqg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyX4ueYjTZTW10yJO4pmd8Cn9HhXPC6r/mZ+7NGO0CL6vbmT8Q9ZA0JjtUeoXVyvswY6A5itw== X-Received: by 2002:a65:5682:: with SMTP id v2mr4642057pgs.231.1596217777148; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.81.7] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 137sm12205747pgg.72.2020.07.31.10.49.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F7BB1128-E71B-4A8C-8205-CDB31CB8702F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:49:34 -0700 In-Reply-To: <8689_1596187448_5F23E338_8689_312_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F05036@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" To: Bruno Decraene References: <159572796513.12445.6949559311624487038@ietfa.amsl.com> <5527A777-4FBC-4EA6-8284-E7771DE2E733@tony.li> <23641_1596126124_5F22F3AC_23641_95_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F03814@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8689_1596187448_5F23E338_8689_312_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48F05036@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:49:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F7BB1128-E71B-4A8C-8205-CDB31CB8702F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Bruno, Thank you for the clarification. I understand completely what you=E2=80=99= re trying to do and I agree that it=E2=80=99s valuable. The downside of your approach is that the Area Leader will now need = configuration of a new prefix to advertise as the Node SID. Not = unthinkable. What do the Inside Nodes do with this prefix, if anything? =20 I am open to this approach, either in addition to, or instead of the = approach currently in the draft. I await feedback from the WG. Regards, Tony p.s. The fact that the node SID requires a prefix is just a side effect = of the IP address space excluding hosts from addressing. The one, true way within IS-IS is the system ID, a separate, independent namespace for = nodes that simply avoids ALL of these problems. If RFC 8667=20 encoded node SIDs as their own TLV without the unnecessary prefix that = OSPF=E2=80=99s style mandates, this would be trivial. > On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:24 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: >=20 > Hi Tony, > =20 > Thank you for your reply. > Top posting the description of the use case that I have in mind. > =20 > =C3=98 First off, the Area SID is 100% optional. If you choose not to = use it, then the Proxy LSP should be 100% compatible with a standard L2 = node. > Good. But I think that the idea of the Area SID is a good one, and I = choose to use it. Then I=E2=80=99d like to get it for free ;-) > =20 > =20 > Please fine below a network topology: > > =20 > =20 > My understanding is that the L2 topology seen by node S is the = following > > =20 > P been the Proxy LSP. > =20 > S wants to protect from the failure of link S-C by using TI-LFA. For = the destination C, it would push 2 (*) node SIDs: P, C=20 > So S needs a Node SID for P: > a) If P does not redistribute the Node SIDs from its area = members, P does not seem to advertise any node SID currently. There is a = chance that C=E2=80=99s TI-LFA implementation would not like it and = hence would not install protection for this (link, destination) > b) If P redistributes the Node SIDs from its area members, P = advertises 3 node SIDs (1,2, 3). S could pick any one at random. If it = picks 3, the forwarding path would be S, A,B, 1, 2, 3, 2 , 1, C, which = is suboptimal. > =20 > Two solutions I could think of: > - when redistributing the node SID, P changes the SIDs values and = replace them with the value of the Area SID. This works for this use = case, but it is borderline. (e.g. if some a L2 node learn both the = original and =E2=80=98NATed=E2=80=99 SID, we have some SID conflict. = Let=E2=80=99s try to avoid this subject). > - P could advertise its own Node-SID with the Area SID value. This is = what I=E2=80=99m proposing. Both the IP loopback and the Area SID of = this Node SID are likely configured by the network operator so this = does not seem like a significant effort from the implementation. > =20 > As you say, this does not involve any protocol extension. But the goal = is to improve interop with existing/legacy L2 nodes so this may be = valuable in the draft. This point could be pushed to a deployment = consideration section if you don=E2=80=99t want any impact on the = protocol extension. > =20 > Thanks, > --Bruno > =20 > (*) Assuming the right metrics on the links. This is not the subject = of this thread. > =20 > =20 > From: Tony Li [mailto:tony1athome@gmail.com] On Behalf Of = tony.li@tony.li > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 7:39 PM > To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN > Cc: lsr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt > =20 > =20 > Hi Bruno, > =20 > Thank you for your comments. > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Jul 30, 2020, at 9:22 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com = wrote: > =20 > Hi Tony, > =20 > Thanks for the updated draft. > =20 > =E2=80=9C The Area SID Sub-TLV allows the Area Leader to advertise a = SID that > represents the entirety of the Inside Area to the Outside Area. = This > sub-TLV is learned by all of the Inside Edge Nodes who should = consume > this SID at forwarding time.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Excellent, from my perspective. > =20 > =C3=98 - The Area Segment SID TLV has been replaced by extending the = Binding SID TLV. > =20 > =E2=80=9CWhen SR is enabled, it may be useful to advertise an Area SID = which > will direct traffic to any of the Inside Edge Routers. The = Binding/ > MT Binding TLVs described in RFC 8667 Section=C2=A02.4 = are used to > advertise such a SID. > =20 > The following extensions to the Binding TLV are defined in order to > support Area SID: > =20 > A new flag is defined: > =20 > T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area. (Bit 5) =C2=BB > =20 > =20 > This works. > =20 > =20 > Excellent. > =20 >=20 >=20 > However I may have a different deployment environment than the one you = have in mind. Even if those issues may be mine, allow me to share them = with you. > In many WAN networks than I=E2=80=99m used to, there are routers from = different vendors, platforms, software, generations. Requiring all those = routers to support the new Binding SID TLV T-Flag will take time. Some = platform may even be end of engineering (evolutions) so would never = support such new features. > In my environment, ideally, I would prefer a solution which do not = require any new feature on external L2 nodes, while all existing L2 = features keep working, in particular SR, SR-TE, TI-LFA, SR uloop = avoidance=E2=80=A6 This would require the Proxy LSP to be not = (significantly) different than the LSP of a vanilla L2 node. > =20 > =20 > First off, the Area SID is 100% optional. If you choose not to use it, = then the Proxy LSP should be 100% compatible with a standard L2 node. > =20 > =20 > =20 > I cannot claim that we=E2=80=99ve exhaustively tested our = implementation against all of the features that you cite, so there may = still be corner cases, but our intent is to make that doable. For = exaple, the Proxy LSP can still contain a node SID, adjacency SID, and = prefix SID as before. There=E2=80=99s no change there. > =20 >=20 >=20 > For SR, I think that this would require this Proxy LSP to advertise a = Prefix/Node SID with the Area SID attached. One drawback is that a = Node-SID is advertised with an IP address that would need to be = provisioned. > =20 > =20 > That=E2=80=99s certainly doable and requires no new protocol = machinery. If the WG prefers this mode of operation, I=E2=80=99m not = opposed. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Both approaches are not mutually exclusives. I=E2=80=99d be happy = enough with an option for the Proxy LSP to advertise an Area Node SID = with the Area SID attached. > =20 > Finally, there is no requirement to make me happy ;-) . The above = could also be a local implementation knob not mentioned in the draft. > =20 > =20 > Our goal is to make as many customers as happy as possible. ;-) > =20 > Tony > =20 > = __________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________ >=20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les = messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, = deforme ou falsifie. Merci. >=20 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or = privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and = delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. --Apple-Mail=_F7BB1128-E71B-4A8C-8205-CDB31CB8702F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Hi Bruno,

Thank you for the clarification. =  I understand completely what you=E2=80=99re trying to do and I = agree that it=E2=80=99s valuable.

The downside of your approach is that = the Area Leader will now need configuration of a new prefix to advertise = as the Node SID. Not unthinkable.
What do the = Inside Nodes do with this prefix, if anything?  

I am open to this = approach, either in addition to, or instead of the approach currently in = the draft.  I await feedback from the WG.

Regards,
Tony

<IS-IS bigotry>

p.s. The fact that the node SID = requires a prefix is just a side effect of the IP address space = excluding hosts from addressing. The one, true
way = within IS-IS is the system ID, a separate, independent namespace for = nodes that simply avoids ALL of these problems.  If RFC = 8667 
encoded node SIDs as their own TLV = without the unnecessary prefix that OSPF=E2=80=99s style mandates, this = would be trivial.

</IS-IS bigotry>

On Jul = 31, 2020, at 2:24 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:

Hi Tony,
 
Thank you for your reply.
Top posting = the description of the use case that I have in mind.
 
=C3=98  First off, the Area SID is 100% optional. If = you choose not to use it, then the Proxy LSP should be 100% compatible = with a standard L2 node.
Good. But I think that the idea of the = Area SID is a good one, and I choose to use it. Then I=E2=80=99d like to = get it for free ;-)
 
 
Please fine below a network topology:
<image003.jpg>
 
 
My understanding is that the L2 topology seen by node S is = the following
<image004.jpg>
 
P = been the Proxy LSP.
 
S = wants to protect from the failure of link S-C by using TI-LFA. For the = destination C, it would push 2 (*) node SIDs: P, C 
So S needs a Node SID for P:
a)      If P does not = redistribute the Node SIDs from its area members, P does not seem to = advertise any node SID currently. There is a chance that C=E2=80=99s = TI-LFA implementation would not like it and hence would not install = protection for this (link, destination)
b)      If P redistributes the = Node SIDs from its area members, P advertises 3 node SIDs (1,2, 3). S = could pick any one at random. If it picks 3, the forwarding path would = be S, A,B, 1, 2, 3, 2 , 1, C,  which is = suboptimal.
 
Two solutions I could think of:
- when = redistributing the node SID, P changes the SIDs values and replace them = with the value of the Area SID. This works for this use case, but it is = borderline. (e.g. if some a L2 node learn both the original and =E2=80=98<= span class=3D"SpellE">NATed=E2=80=99 SID, we have some SID = conflict. Let=E2=80=99s try to avoid this subject).
- P could = advertise its own Node-SID with the Area SID value. This is what I=E2=80=99= m proposing. Both the IP loopback and the Area SID of this Node SID  are likely configured by the network operator so = this does not seem like a significant effort from the = implementation.
 
As you say, this does not involve any protocol extension. But = the goal is to improve interop with existing/legacy L2 nodes so this may = be valuable in the draft. This point could be pushed to a deployment = consideration section if you don=E2=80=99t want any impact on the = protocol extension.
 
Thanks,
--Bruno
 
(*) Assuming the right metrics on the links. This is not the = subject of this thread.
 
 
From: Tony Li [mailto:tony1athome@gmail.com] On Behalf = Of tony.li@tony.li
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2020 = 7:39 PM
To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN = <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: lsr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version = Notification for draft-ietf-lsr-isis-area-proxy-02.txt
 
 
Hi Bruno,
 
Thank = you for your comments.
 


On Jul 30, 2020, at 9:22 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
 
Hi Tony,
 
Thanks for the updated draft.
 
=E2=80=9C The = Area SID Sub-TLV allows the Area Leader to advertise a SID = that
   represents the entirety of = the Inside Area to the Outside Area.  This
   sub-TLV is learned by all = of the Inside Edge Nodes who should consume
   this SID at forwarding = time.=E2=80=9D
 
Excellent, from my perspective.
 
=C3=98  - The Area Segment SID TLV has been replaced by extending the = Binding SID TLV.
 
=E2=80=9C=
When SR is enabled, it may be useful to =
advertise an Area SID which
   will direct traffic to any of the Inside Edge =
Routers.  The Binding/
   MT Binding TLVs described in RFC 8667 =
Section 2.4 are used =
to
   advertise such a =
SID.
 
   The following extensions to the =
Binding TLV are defined in order to
   support Area SID:
 
      A new flag is =
defined:
 
        =
 T-flag: The SID directs traffic to an area.  (Bit =
5) =C2=BB
 
 
This works.
 
 
Excellent.
 


However I may have a different deployment = environment than the one you have in mind. Even if those issues may be = mine, allow me to share them with you.
In many WAN networks than I=E2=80=99m used to, there are = routers from different vendors, platforms, software, generations. = Requiring all those routers to support the new Binding SID TLV T-Flag = will take time. Some platform may even be end of engineering = (evolutions) so would never support such new features.
In my environment, ideally, I would prefer = a solution which do not require any new feature on external L2 nodes, = while all existing L2 features keep working, in particular SR, SR-TE, = TI-LFA, SR uloop avoidance=E2=80=A6 This = would require the Proxy LSP to be not (significantly) different than the = LSP of a vanilla L2 node.
 
 
First off, the Area SID is 100% optional. If you choose not = to use it, then the Proxy LSP should be 100% compatible with a standard = L2 node.
 
 
 
I = cannot claim that we=E2=80=99ve exhaustively tested our implementation = against all of the features that you cite, so there may still be corner = cases, but our intent is to make that doable.  For exaple, the = Proxy LSP can still contain a node SID, adjacency SID, and prefix SID as = before. There=E2=80=99s no change there.
 


For SR, I think that this would require = this Proxy LSP to advertise a Prefix/Node SID with the Area SID = attached. One drawback is that a Node-SID is advertised with an IP = address that would need to be provisioned.
 
 
That=E2=80=99s certainly doable and requires no new protocol = machinery. If the WG prefers this mode of operation, I=E2=80=99m not = opposed.


 
Both approaches are not mutually exclusives. I=E2=80=99d be = happy enough with an option for the Proxy LSP to advertise an Area Node = SID with the Area SID attached.
 
Finally, there is no requirement to make me happy ;-) . The = above could also be a local implementation knob not mentioned in the = draft.
 
 
Our = goal is to make as many customers as happy as possible.  ;-)
 
Tony
 
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Not sure I follow your below comment o= r how it relates to my deployment=C2=A0scenario ... I specifically said tha= t 1.1.1.1/32 will be a negative route (th= ere is "-" minus there) advertised in BGP.=C2=A0

If you mean that reception of negative routes in the presence of s= ummary requires changes to RIB route tracking=C2=A0(or local RIB twist) it = sure does.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at= 10:07 AM Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.= com> wrote:

Hi Robert:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BGP next= hop validation can solve some but not all problems. In your example, if PE= 1 has learned only 1.1.1.0/= 24 but not 1.1.1.1/32, BGP cannot detect the reachability of 1.1.1.1/32.

=C2=A0=

Thanks=

=C2=A0=

Zhibo Hu

From: Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 5:18 PM
To: Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; lsr@ietf.org; Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Xiaoyaqun <xiaoyaqun@huawei.co= m>
Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefi= x-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt

=C2=A0

Hello Acee,

=C2=A0

I would like to question your a= ssessment that signalling unreachable routes is unnecessary.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Imagine hierarchical network wi= th areas. Under no failures area 1 advertises to area 0 summary LSA with 1.1.1.0/24. That block = covers PE's loopbacks which within the area are /32s. Those loopbacks a= re also BGP next hops.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Of course said all of the above= - if you search your employer's archives - you will see a proposal whe= re the above mechanism=C2=A0can be done within BGP itself with no touch to = the IGP - just using a bit of twisted next hop validation steps and BGP native recursion. I am not going to make any judg= ements here which method is better or easier - naturally I personally like = BGP one more :).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But I hope this is clear why at= least discussion on the subject is important. It also illustrates why the = below statement is not necessarily=C2=A0correct:=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

"Note that the unreachabil= ity of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if it is reachable throug= h another ABR. "=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kind regards,
Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM= Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:=

Speaking as an LSR Working Grou= p member:

Asking the WG precisely how to advertise prefix unreachability is the wrong= question - it is analogous to asking whether to use a car or truck to driv= e off the edge of a cliff. Rather than messing up OSPF and IS-IS with these= complex and unnecessary mechanisms, it would be better to address the requirement in your network design. Note= that the unreachability of a given summarized prefix is only relevant if i= t is reachable through another ABR. In this case, the network design should= provide adequate intra-area redundancy to provide communications between the ABRs. If this cannot be accomplished= , an intra-area adjacency should be established over a tunnel between the A= BRs in the backbone. Contrary to section 6.1, Looping is normally not a pro= blem as ABRs should add back hole routes for their advertised summaries.

Acee

=EF=BB= =BFOn 7/26/20, 9:34 PM, "Lsr on behalf of = Aijun Wang" <lsr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of wangaj3@chinat= elecom.cn> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi, LSR experts:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachab= le Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traff= ic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 = and ISIS.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are also some arguments about the current solution for = PUA, for example:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" su= b-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other= convincible solution?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We= will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best Regards

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aijun Wang
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 China Telecom

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Zhibo Hu <huzhibo@huawei.com>; Aijun Wang <wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn>; Y= aqun Xiao <xia= oyaqun@huawei.com>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-u= nreachable-annoucement-03.txt


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annou= cement-03.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to t= he IETF repository.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d= raft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A003
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Prefix= Unreachable Announcement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2020-07-27
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Indivi= dual Submission
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-anno= ucement-03.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unrea= chable-annoucement/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annouc= ement-03
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-u= nreachable-annoucement
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr= -prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the mechanism that can b= e used to announce
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the unreachable prefixes for service fast conver= gence.




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the tim= e of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF Secretariat



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lsr@ietf.or= g
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

_______________________________________________
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htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr

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--=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 02:21:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4903A0AA1 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 02:20:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id trDHWAglP6lq for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 02:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com 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+0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <014a01d663b5$d8228660$88679320$@chinatelecom.cn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:20:59 -0000 Hi Ajun, one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is how are you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability announcements/ Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that connects to area 1 to all remaining connected areas 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32 to all other connected areas 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the black hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft does not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should be removed by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the user may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability announcements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. thanks, Peter On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: > Hi, LSR experts: > > We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: > 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. > 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. > 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. > > There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for example: > 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable? > 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solution? > > Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. > > Best Regards > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM > To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; Yaqun Xiao > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repository. > > Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement > Revision: 03 > Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement > Document date: 2020-07-27 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 11 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 > > Abstract: > This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce > the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > From nobody Thu Jul 30 04:44:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3713A109D for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:44:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5gYZ3Sv1LpWS for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (mail-m127101.qiye.163.com [115.236.127.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7944F3A109B for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 04:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [106.121.69.15]) by mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id A15BD46F70; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 19:44:27 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 19:44:26 +0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: Aijun Wang , lsr@ietf.org, Zhibo Hu , Yaqun Xiao In-Reply-To: To: Peter Psenak X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUpXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLWVdZKFlBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1 kPCRoVCBIfWUFZGE4eTR1IHUMfGUtCVkpOQk1KS0JPTUxDQkhVEwETFhoSFyQUDg9ZV1kWGg8SFR 0UWUFZT0tIVUpKS09ISFVKS0tZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6PAg6MTo4Kj8dNQwLIwFJFjoD Pk1PCx5VSlVKTkJNSktCT01DSE5IVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKS01VSklKVU1CVUpOWVdZCAFZQU1KTUk3Bg++ X-HM-Tid: 0a739f89b0109865kuuua15bd46f70 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:44:42 -0000 Hi, Peter: Currently, we have the following consideration: 1. If not all of the ABRs announce the unreachability of the specified prefi= x(the specified prefix is still up), such PUA information will continue adve= rtising by the unreachable ABRs. 2. If all of the ABRs announce the PUA of the specified prefix, such informa= tion will be announced for a configurable duration, to make sure other proto= col(for example BGP) that based on the specified prefix has converged. How about the above consideration and=20 Do you have other thoughts ? Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Jul 30, 2020, at 17:21, Peter Psenak wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Ajun, >=20 > one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is how ar= e you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability announcements/ >=20 > Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: >=20 > - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses > - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links >=20 > For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 >=20 > 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that connects to a= rea 1 to all remaining connected areas >=20 > 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. >=20 > 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32 to a= ll other connected areas >=20 > 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.= 25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the bl= ack hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft d= oes not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should be r= emoved by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the use= r may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability a= nnouncements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. >=20 >=20 > thanks, > Peter >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: >> Hi, LSR experts: >> We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcem= ent) draft. The main updates are the followings: >> 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABR= s, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. >> 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. >> 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. >> There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for exa= mple: >> 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indic= ate the prefix is unreachable? >> 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solutio= n? >> Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also h= ave the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. >> Best Regards >> Aijun Wang >> China Telecom >> -----Original Message----- >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM >> To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; Y= aqun Xiao >> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-a= nnoucement-03.txt >> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.tx= t >> has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repo= sitory. >> Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >> Revision: 03 >> Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement >> Document date: 2020-07-27 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 11 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefi= x-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-un= reachable-annoucement/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreach= able-annoucement-03 >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-pref= ix-unreachable-annoucement >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-prefix= -unreachable-annoucement-03 >> Abstract: >> This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce >> the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. >> = Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of s= ubmission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.or= g. >> The IETF Secretariat >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > Lsr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr From nobody Thu Jul 30 05:00:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC713A10C3 for ; 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d="scan'208";a="28350407" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Jul 2020 12:00:11 +0000 Received: from [10.61.192.80] ([10.61.192.80]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 06UC0AVU006437; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:00:11 GMT To: Aijun Wang Cc: Aijun Wang , lsr@ietf.org, Zhibo Hu , Yaqun Xiao References: From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:00:10 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.192.80, [10.61.192.80] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:00:21 -0000 Hi Aijun, On 30/07/2020 13:44, Aijun Wang wrote: > Hi, Peter: > Currently, we have the following consideration: > 1. If not all of the ABRs announce the unreachability of the specified prefix(the specified prefix is still up), such PUA information will continue advertising by the unreachable ABRs. so the behavior of ABR is going to be dependent on the behavior of the the other ABR(s)? That is a very thin ice you are dancing on. > 2. If all of the ABRs announce the PUA of the specified prefix, such information will be announced for a configurable duration, to make sure other protocol(for example BGP) that based on the specified prefix has converged. well, the problem is that no mater what is your configured time to advertise the un-reachability, you have no way of knowing whether the resource that became unreachable have done so intentionally and whether it will ever come back. And guessing based on the timer is not going to make it much better I'm afraid. thanks, Peter > How about the above consideration and > Do you have other thoughts ? > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > >> On Jul 30, 2020, at 17:21, Peter Psenak wrote: >> >> Hi Ajun, >> >> one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is how are you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability announcements/ >> >> Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: >> >> - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses >> - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links >> >> For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 >> >> 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that connects to area 1 to all remaining connected areas >> >> 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. >> >> 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32 to all other connected areas >> >> 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the black hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft does not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should be removed by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the user may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability announcements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. >> >> >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> >> >> >>> On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: >>> Hi, LSR experts: >>> We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: >>> 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. >>> 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. >>> 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. >>> There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for example: >>> 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable? >>> 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solution? >>> Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. >>> Best Regards >>> Aijun Wang >>> China Telecom >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM >>> To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; Yaqun Xiao >>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repository. >>> Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>> Revision: 03 >>> Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement >>> Document date: 2020-07-27 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 11 >>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/ >>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>> Abstract: >>> This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce >>> the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>> The IETF Secretariat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lsr mailing list >>> Lsr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsr mailing list >> Lsr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr > > > From nobody Thu Jul 30 05:29:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F2B3A10D4 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l6fugf2G9HUY for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4858C3A10D2 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:28:55 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.92:19995.1687889243 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-106.121.69.15?logid-64858cca59164b83b5176660916e5054 (unknown [172.18.0.92]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 0F4CB28009A; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:28:33 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.92]) by App0021 with ESMTP id 64858cca59164b83b5176660916e5054 for wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn; Thu Jul 30 20:28:17 2020 X-Transaction-ID: 64858cca59164b83b5176660916e5054 X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.92 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:28:37 +0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: Aijun Wang , lsr@ietf.org, Zhibo Hu , Yaqun Xiao In-Reply-To: To: Peter Psenak X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:29:00 -0000 Hi, Peter: Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Jul 30, 2020, at 20:00, Peter Psenak wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Aijun, >=20 >> On 30/07/2020 13:44, Aijun Wang wrote: >> Hi, Peter: >> Currently, we have the following consideration: >> 1. If not all of the ABRs announce the unreachability of the specified pr= efix(the specified prefix is still up), such PUA information will continue a= dvertising by the unreachable ABRs. >=20 > so the behavior of ABR is going to be dependent on the behavior of the the= other ABR(s)? That is a very thin ice you are dancing on. [WAJ] it is easy for ABR to get these information and make the judgment. All= ABRs locate within the same area. >=20 >> 2. If all of the ABRs announce the PUA of the specified prefix, such info= rmation will be announced for a configurable duration, to make sure other pr= otocol(for example BGP) that based on the specified prefix has converged. >=20 > well, the problem is that no mater what is your configured time to adverti= se the un-reachability, you have no way of knowing whether the resource that= became unreachable have done so intentionally and whether it will ever come= back. And guessing based on the timer is not going to make it much better I= 'm afraid. >=20 [WAJ] We need not care bout the reason for the unreachability. When ABR get t= he PUA information from also all other ABRs, it will start one timer to coun= t the duration of following PUA message. After the duration, all ABRs will s= top the advertisement.=20 > thanks, > Peter >=20 >=20 >> How about the above consideration and >> Do you have other thoughts ? >> Aijun Wang >> China Telecom >>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 17:21, Peter Psenak wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Ajun, >>>=20 >>> one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is how a= re you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability announcements/ >>>=20 >>> Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: >>>=20 >>> - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses >>> - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links >>>=20 >>> For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 >>>=20 >>> 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that connects t= o area 1 to all remaining connected areas >>>=20 >>> 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. >>>=20 >>> 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32 to= all other connected areas >>>=20 >>> 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.= 0.25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the b= lack hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft= does not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should b= e removed by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the u= ser may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability= announcements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> thanks, >>> Peter >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: >>>> Hi, LSR experts: >>>> We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announc= ement) draft. The main updates are the followings: >>>> 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among A= BRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. >>>> 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. >>>> 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. >>>> There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for e= xample: >>>> 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to ind= icate the prefix is unreachable? >>>> 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solut= ion? >>>> Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also= have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. >>>> Best Regards >>>> Aijun Wang >>>> China Telecom >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM >>>> To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang = ; Yaqun Xiao >>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable= -annoucement-03.txt >>>> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.= txt >>>> has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF re= pository. >>>> Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>> Revision: 03 >>>> Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement >>>> Document date: 2020-07-27 >>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>> Pages: 11 >>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-pre= fix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-= unreachable-annoucement/ >>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unrea= chable-annoucement-03 >>>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-pr= efix-unreachable-annoucement >>>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-lsr-pref= ix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>> Abstract: >>>> This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce >>>> the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. >>>> = Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of= submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.= org. >>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Lsr mailing list >>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lsr mailing list >>> Lsr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 30 05:42:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6675F3A0E13 for ; 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d="scan'208";a="28352325" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Jul 2020 12:41:51 +0000 Received: from [10.61.192.80] ([10.61.192.80]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 06UCfoRx011958; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:41:51 GMT To: Aijun Wang Cc: Aijun Wang , lsr@ietf.org, Zhibo Hu , Yaqun Xiao References: From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:41:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.192.80, [10.61.192.80] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:42:00 -0000 Aijun, On 30/07/2020 14:28, Aijun Wang wrote: > Hi, Peter: > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > >> On Jul 30, 2020, at 20:00, Peter Psenak wrote: >> >> Hi Aijun, >> >>> On 30/07/2020 13:44, Aijun Wang wrote: >>> Hi, Peter: >>> Currently, we have the following consideration: >>> 1. If not all of the ABRs announce the unreachability of the specified prefix(the specified prefix is still up), such PUA information will continue advertising by the unreachable ABRs. >> >> so the behavior of ABR is going to be dependent on the behavior of the the other ABR(s)? That is a very thin ice you are dancing on. > > [WAJ] it is easy for ABR to get these information and make the judgment. All ABRs locate within the same area. having that info is not the issue. The cyclic dependency is the one. > >> >>> 2. If all of the ABRs announce the PUA of the specified prefix, such information will be announced for a configurable duration, to make sure other protocol(for example BGP) that based on the specified prefix has converged. >> >> well, the problem is that no mater what is your configured time to advertise the un-reachability, you have no way of knowing whether the resource that became unreachable have done so intentionally and whether it will ever come back. And guessing based on the timer is not going to make it much better I'm afraid. >> > > [WAJ] We need not care bout the reason for the unreachability. When ABR get the PUA information from also all other ABRs, it will start one timer to count the duration of following PUA message. After the duration, all ABRs will stop the advertisement. once you stop advertising the un-reachability, you are back to square one as you were with the summary only. thanks, peter > > >> thanks, >> Peter >> >> >>> How about the above consideration and >>> Do you have other thoughts ? >>> Aijun Wang >>> China Telecom >>>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 17:21, Peter Psenak wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Ajun, >>>> >>>> one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is how are you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability announcements/ >>>> >>>> Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: >>>> >>>> - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses >>>> - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links >>>> >>>> For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 >>>> >>>> 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that connects to area 1 to all remaining connected areas >>>> >>>> 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. >>>> >>>> 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32 to all other connected areas >>>> >>>> 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the black hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft does not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should be removed by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the user may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability announcements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. >>>> >>>> >>>> thanks, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: >>>>> Hi, LSR experts: >>>>> We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: >>>>> 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. >>>>> 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. >>>>> 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. >>>>> There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for example: >>>>> 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable? >>>>> 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solution? >>>>> Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. >>>>> Best Regards >>>>> Aijun Wang >>>>> China Telecom >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM >>>>> To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang ; Yaqun Xiao >>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>> has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repository. >>>>> Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>>> Revision: 03 >>>>> Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement >>>>> Document date: 2020-07-27 >>>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>>> Pages: 11 >>>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/ >>>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>>> Abstract: >>>>> This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce >>>>> the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. >>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Lsr mailing list >>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >> > > > From nobody Thu Jul 30 05:49:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 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72009635287B6028A517 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:49:48 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:49:48 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.210) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:49:47 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM509-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.9.142]) by DGGEMM402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.210]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:49:39 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: Peter Psenak , Aijun Wang CC: Aijun Wang , "lsr@ietf.org" , Xiaoyaqun Thread-Topic: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHWY7N0b8U7rxAxrkKccN2nDUzbRKkaHimAgAU5wgCAACgfAIAABGUAgAAH84CAAAOxAIAAhoWA Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:49:38 +0000 Message-ID: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.126] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:49:53 -0000 DQpIaSBwZXRlcu+8mg0KDQpPbiAzMC8wNy8yMDIwIDE0OjI4LCBBaWp1biBXYW5nIHdyb3RlOg0K PiBIaSwgUGV0ZXI6DQo+IA0KPiBBaWp1biBXYW5nDQo+IENoaW5hIFRlbGVjb20NCj4gDQo+PiBP 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"lsr@ietf.org" , Xiaoyaqun References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:02:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.192.80, [10.61.192.80] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:02:35 -0000 Huzhibo, On 30/07/2020 14:49, Huzhibo wrote: > > Hi peter： > > On 30/07/2020 14:28, Aijun Wang wrote: >> Hi, Peter: >> >> Aijun Wang >> China Telecom >> >>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 20:00, Peter Psenak wrote: >>> >>> Hi Aijun, >>> >>>> On 30/07/2020 13:44, Aijun Wang wrote: >>>> Hi, Peter: >>>> Currently, we have the following consideration: >>>> 1. If not all of the ABRs announce the unreachability of the specified prefix(the specified prefix is still up), such PUA information will continue advertising by the unreachable ABRs. >>> >>> so the behavior of ABR is going to be dependent on the behavior of the the other ABR(s)? That is a very thin ice you are dancing on. >> >> [WAJ] it is easy for ABR to get these information and make the judgment. All ABRs locate within the same area. > > having that info is not the issue. The cyclic dependency is the one. >> [HZB] The cyclic dependency does not occur. The PUA advertisement behavior of an ABR is not affected by the transient status of other ABRs. The condition for canceling PUA advertisement is that all ABRs advertise the PUA information with a certain prefix for 30 minutes. you have not convinced me with the above statement. You are making a dependency on the ABR behavior based on the other ABRs' behavior. That's a call for a trouble. >> >>> >>>> 2. If all of the ABRs announce the PUA of the specified prefix, such information will be announced for a configurable duration, to make sure other protocol(for example BGP) that based on the specified prefix has converged. >>> >>> well, the problem is that no mater what is your configured time to advertise the un-reachability, you have no way of knowing whether the resource that became unreachable have done so intentionally and whether it will ever come back. And guessing based on the timer is not going to make it much better I'm afraid. >>> >> >> [WAJ] We need not care bout the reason for the unreachability. When ABR get the PUA information from also all other ABRs, it will start one timer to count the duration of following PUA message. After the duration, all ABRs will stop the advertisement. > > once you stop advertising the un-reachability, you are back to square one as you were with the summary only. >> [HZB] There are two scenarios: First: The node is actually Down. In this case, upper-layer services will be converged 30 minutes earlier. once you stop the unreachable advertisement, the resource will be seen as reachable outside of its area, even when it is down. That is a problem that you are trying to solve in a first place. thanks, Peter Even if the PUA is canceled, the problem will not occur. Second: If the node is not Down and only an ABR is unreachable, the ABR will continuously advertises PUA. > > thanks, > peter > >> >> >>> thanks, >>> Peter >>> >>> >>>> How about the above consideration and Do you have other thoughts ? >>>> Aijun Wang >>>> China Telecom >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 17:21, Peter Psenak wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Ajun, >>>>> >>>>> one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is >>>>> how are you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability >>>>> announcements/ >>>>> >>>>> Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: >>>>> >>>>> - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses >>>>> - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links >>>>> >>>>> For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 >>>>> >>>>> 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that >>>>> connects to area 1 to all remaining connected areas >>>>> >>>>> 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. >>>>> >>>>> 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for >>>>> 10.0.0.25/32 to all other connected areas >>>>> >>>>> 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the black hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft does not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should be removed by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the user may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability announcements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> thanks, >>>>> Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: >>>>>> Hi, LSR experts: >>>>>> We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: >>>>>> 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. >>>>>> 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. >>>>>> 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. >>>>>> There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for example: >>>>>> 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable? >>>>>> 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solution? >>>>>> Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. >>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>> Aijun Wang >>>>>> China Telecom >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM >>>>>> To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang >>>>>> ; Yaqun Xiao >>>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for >>>>>> draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>>> A new version of I-D, >>>>>> draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repository. >>>>>> Name: draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>>>> Revision: 03 >>>>>> Title: Prefix Unreachable Announcement >>>>>> Document date: 2020-07-27 >>>>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>>>> Pages: 11 >>>>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/ >>>>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>>>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>>>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>> This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce >>>>>> the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. >>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>> >> >> >> > > > From nobody Thu Jul 30 06:19:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C31B3A1127 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:19:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vsTbWu89O0ri for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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Wang CC: Aijun Wang , lsr , Xiaoyaqun Thread-Topic: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHWY7N0b8U7rxAxrkKccN2nDUzbRKkaHimAgAU5wgCAACgfAIAABGUAgAAH84CAAAOxAIAAhoWA//9/OgCAAIqzRw== Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:18:49 +0000 Message-ID: DB925F8B-5783-4416-96DC-B89B08052022 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB925F8B5783441696DCB89B08052022_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , 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X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,414,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="28291737" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Jul 2020 13:32:23 +0000 Received: from [10.61.192.80] ([10.61.192.80]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 06UDWMoC027415; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:32:23 GMT To: Huzhibo , Aijun Wang Cc: Aijun Wang , lsr , Xiaoyaqun References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:32:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.192.80, [10.61.192.80] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:32:31 -0000 Hi Zhibo, On 30/07/2020 15:18, Huzhibo wrote: > HI Peter： > > 1：No problem is a problem that never can be proved. > > 2：For bgp example，when the pe node down，the bgp peer must down within > 30 mintus，It will not get it up via cancle advertise pua. for the above it is sufficient to advertise the unreachability for few seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much more solid proposal. thanks, Peter > > > ZHIBO > > -------------------------------------------------- > 胡志波 Hu Zhibo > Mobile: +86-18618192287 > Email: huzhibo@huawei.com > > *发件人：*Peter Psenak > *收件人：*Huzhibo ;Aijun Wang > *抄 送：*Aijun Wang ;lsr > ;Xiaoyaqun > *时 间：*2020-07-30 21:02:49 > *主 题：*Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for > draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt > > Huzhibo, > > On 30/07/2020 14:49, Huzhibo wrote: >> >> Hi peter： >> >> On 30/07/2020 14:28, Aijun Wang wrote: >>> Hi, Peter: >>> >>> Aijun Wang >>> China Telecom >>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 20:00, Peter Psenak wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Aijun, >>>> >>>>> On 30/07/2020 13:44, Aijun Wang wrote: >>>>> Hi, Peter: >>>>> Currently, we have the following consideration: >>>>> 1. If not all of the ABRs announce the unreachability of the specified prefix(the specified prefix is still up), such PUA information will continue advertising by the unreachable ABRs. >>>> >>>> so the behavior of ABR is going to be dependent on the behavior of the the other ABR(s)? That is a very thin ice you are dancing on. >>> >>> [WAJ] it is easy for ABR to get these information and make the judgment. All ABRs locate within the same area. >> >> having that info is not the issue. The cyclic dependency is the one. >>> [HZB] The cyclic dependency does not occur. The PUA advertisement behavior of an ABR is not affected by the transient status of other ABRs. The condition for canceling PUA advertisement is that all ABRs advertise the PUA information with a certain prefix for 30 minutes. > > you have not convinced me with the above statement. You are making a > dependency on the ABR behavior based on the other ABRs' behavior. That's > a call for a trouble. > > >>> >>>> >>>>> 2. If all of the ABRs announce the PUA of the specified prefix, such information will be announced for a configurable duration, to make sure other protocol(for example BGP) that based on the specified prefix has converged. >>>> >>>> well, the problem is that no mater what is your configured time to advertise the un-reachability, you have no way of knowing whether the resource that became unreachable have done so intentionally and whether it will ever come back. And guessing based on the timer is not going to make it much better I'm afraid. >>>> >>> >>> [WAJ] We need not care bout the reason for the unreachability. When ABR get the PUA information from also all other ABRs, it will start one timer to count the duration of following PUA message. After the duration, all ABRs will stop the advertisement. >> >> once you stop advertising the un-reachability, you are back to square one as you were with the summary only. >>> [HZB] There are two scenarios: First: The node is actually Down. In this case, upper-layer services will be converged 30 minutes earlier. > > once you stop the unreachable advertisement, the resource will be seen > as reachable outside of its area, even when it is down. That is a > problem that you are trying to solve in a first place. > > > thanks, > Peter > > Even if the PUA is canceled, the problem will not occur. Second: If the > node is not Down and only an ABR is unreachable, the ABR will > continuously advertises PUA. >> >> thanks, >> peter >> >>> >>> >>>> thanks, >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>>> How about the above consideration and Do you have other thoughts ? >>>>> Aijun Wang >>>>> China Telecom >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2020, at 17:21, Peter Psenak wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Ajun, >>>>>> >>>>>> one additional problem on top of others that have been mentioned is >>>>>> how are you going to get rid of "old" un-reachability >>>>>> announcements/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's imagine you have the following prefixes in your area 1: >>>>>> >>>>>> - 10.10.0.1/32 - 10.0.0.255/32 - used for loopback adresses >>>>>> - 10.10.1.0/30 - 10.10.10.252/32 - used for transit links >>>>>> >>>>>> For simplicity your summary for area 1 is 10.0.0.0/16 >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Everything is up, you generate 10.0.0.0/16 on the ABR that >>>>>> connects to area 1 to all remaining connected areas >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. A router in area 1 with loopback 10.10.0.25/32 goes down. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. ABR in area 1 generates un-reachable announcement for >>>>>> 10.0.0.25/32 to all other connected areas >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. When does ABR stop generating the un-reachable announcement for 10.0.0.25/32? In section 6 you mention that "The receiver router should keep the black hole routes for PUA as one configurable time(MAX_T_PUA)", but the draft does not say anything about when the un-reachability announcements should be removed by ABR. We can not rely on 10.10.0.25/32 ever coming back, as the user may have simply removed it for good. Keeping the "stale" un-reachability announcements may result in the LSDB growth over the period of time. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks, >>>>>> Peter >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 27/07/2020 03:32, Aijun Wang wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, LSR experts: >>>>>>> We have uploaded the new version of this PUA(Prefix Unreachable Announcement) draft. The main updates are the followings: >>>>>>> 1) Describes the solution that using tunnel to redirect traffic among ABRs, when all ABRs reaches the PUA limit. >>>>>>> 2) Describe fast rerouting to avoid routing black hole. >>>>>>> 3) Defining PUA capabilities announcements for OSPFv2/OSPFv3 and ISIS. >>>>>>> There are also some arguments about the current solution for PUA, for example: >>>>>>> 1) Is it suitable to set the "Prefix Originator" sub-TLV to NULL to indicate the prefix is unreachable? >>>>>>> 2) if not, what's the consideration? What's the other convincible solution? >>>>>>> Wish to hear comments and suggestions on the above issues. We will also have the presentation on the coming IETF LSR meeting. >>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>> Aijun Wang >>>>>>> China Telecom >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:16 AM >>>>>>> To: Zhibo Hu ; Aijun Wang >>>>>>> ; Yaqun Xiao >>>>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for >>>>>>> draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>>>> A new version of I-D, >>>>>>> draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repository. >>>>>>> Name:        draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>>>>> Revision:    03 >>>>>>> Title:        Prefix Unreachable Announcement >>>>>>> Document date:    2020-07-27 >>>>>>> Group:        Individual Submission >>>>>>> Pages:        11 >>>>>>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt >>>>>>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement/ >>>>>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>>>>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement >>>>>>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03 >>>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>>>      This document describes the mechanism that can be used to announce >>>>>>>      the unreachable prefixes for service fast convergence. >>>>>>>                                                                                     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>>>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Lsr mailing list >>>>>> Lsr@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > From nobody Thu Jul 30 06:38:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D24F3A113C for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKwgEQztdhIX for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using 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with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:38:21 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: Peter Psenak , Aijun Wang CC: Aijun Wang , lsr , Xiaoyaqun Thread-Topic: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHWY7N0b8U7rxAxrkKccN2nDUzbRKkaHimAgAU5wgCAACgfAIAABGUAgAAH84CAAAOxAIAAhoWA//9/OgCAAAhgAIAAh8jt Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:38:21 +0000 Message-ID: 56D76577-2FA1-41C7-A766-746D0DADA3D9 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com>, <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56D765772FA141C7A766746D0DADA3D9_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for 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<43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:14:16 +0200 Message-ID: To: Peter Psenak Cc: Huzhibo , Aijun Wang , lsr , Aijun Wang , Xiaoyaqun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ddab105aba94ab8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:14:28 -0000 --0000000000001ddab105aba94ab8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe node down=EF=BC=8Cthe bgp= peer must down within > > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle advertise pua. > > for the above it is sufficient to advertise the unreachability for few > seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much more solid > proposal. Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure. Thx, R. --0000000000001ddab105aba94ab8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0
> 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8C= when the pe node down=EF=BC=8Cthe bgp peer must down within
> 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle advertise pua.

for the above it is sufficient to advertise the unreachability for few
seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much more solid
proposal.

Not sure about "few seconds&= quot; ... IBGP def hold time in number of implementations is 180 sec :) .. = but few minutes will work for sure.=C2=A0

Thx,
= R.

--0000000000001ddab105aba94ab8-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 07:21:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFFE3A123D for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hPLuycRQQoQB for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 165433A121C for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:21:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=721; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1596118877; x=1597328477; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yEeZBLyu3zTldYuXxolq8Fj0Tt7ueHZodE2PTfw+X44=; b=AVPlsm23vDYsjx6Nxhfj+kWT75ECQ620pO7m1OLufX0maz1HbKrfTPA9 HiYU9/fWthtcFRBWiSWf+13H6vIH2jYeMFIXZGwdK8B23cLM5n+V8WfSL 0egBF0P9+EXvapJivuLoUoLpZug9TV7oPZ10+7OHPczpcysXUlhKf+FI1 U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ALAABF1iJf/xbLJq1gGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDAQEBARIBAQEBAgIBAQEBQIE4AwEBAQELAYNsASAShGGJAYgXmhCBfQs?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEOLwQBAYRMAoIvJTYHDgIDAQELAQEFAQEBAgEGBG2FaIVxAQEBAwEjDwE?= =?us-ascii?q?FPwIQCxgCAiYCAlcGDQgBAYMigl0gr0B2gTKFUoM4gUCBDioBjSaBQT+BESe?= =?us-ascii?q?CaT6HU4JgBJIykm+QZoJpgwqWaQUHAx6RS44pgSiMM6QLgVoNJoFXMxoIGxW?= =?us-ascii?q?DJU8ZDY5WjhI/A2cCBgEHAQEDCZBYAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,414,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="28292840" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 30 Jul 2020 14:21:13 +0000 Received: from [10.60.140.51] (ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com [10.60.140.51]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 06UELCcQ006819; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:21:12 GMT To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Huzhibo , Aijun Wang , lsr , Aijun Wang , Xiaoyaqun References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> From: Peter Psenak Message-ID: <2a6844df-59ed-ca91-c306-d2288c44a1dc@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:21:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.60.140.51, ams-ppsenak-nitro2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:21:26 -0000 On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > 2：For bgp example，when the pe node down，the bgp peer must down > within > > 30 mintus，It will not get it up via cancle advertise pua. > > for the above it is sufficient to advertise the unreachability for few > seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much more solid > proposal. > > > Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of > implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure. depends how you use it. If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's sufficient if it is present for a very short time interval. thanks, Peter > > Thx, > R. > From nobody Thu Jul 30 07:30:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A423A1195 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:30:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nd4508IoZUB8 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com (mail-ej1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EE0B3A1193 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id g19so14380903ejc.9 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:30:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xadi+60i2WGNou4Z0j/Vp6bvvzm9PvNTu/Tk7Ym8qxE=; b=QESePGAoFF6XQLrXaIe4hZz6LBSxGXDwm+p2+GDZu+y+jgZ/tLVysZl8IZfhUvgFp8 s3mPDbKPyq/TJgxXvZU8rlfYBS+/hLtku+OFxdBaBouTf6H6L6mJKHBJw5XqDbPaDlxi UYHs35BMNYbz75ye8Lyh9b4YGp8zARCm+kS3stsT69A/LXFvNulasPgs8iHgEQsgNVDS 2za3kj3tk3vhrYrLAlFCdG+UaQC/IEc4PfCl6W67N45DkwwLWI/kZ8ZjFUlld9aQhTMI T8QGW9YCZTaaPqsjv2L/kdXa0gSscElQZXlxqYczGk8lNTfS519tXG9kgYZ/BNoN3Qg1 afQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xadi+60i2WGNou4Z0j/Vp6bvvzm9PvNTu/Tk7Ym8qxE=; b=gr0kRdqo3aE3ldoN8AUyb48TTNQsVN73r9flCLUahuPiIjdxL1QYb9zUm62xekWJgL g5eWr8ybxsn8ARpPN9uJGOdBSBlT8ZPjSFOyDgjSH/cWF8O6dSXQt2IJqwSlDZhIFBQ/ 11K3mi28R3i1WPTg77OYPizywgudcVbYZaKDbC11PdinspYdQnnaP5x+GVYy5Q5NSvqx qewoJWhjUkjO5Zsh77lwmqGzechwMJWU0ZUP3dcJFxYnrsE49tNQqSUiigk/qx9HpNqP msrkfwx+0qt+nPpZJegkebI/Vhxj5sgKnU56p0y7JGOS5Mj+P/JTe3szryS7ChVN/GSw FFIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532UZ6evaW6VmB17qtPy/8tQIUU33yQ5QMHhqlYCnJ2x+tqxL9NI Vp7RknJnI/k9TWeqAtIqzz+T26TXeKCdMtvfAJDm8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4Zia4N8yNZFMDftq/mk5KBWdhlr7UvBdEKldKgs4vz8AYeFrKO70PaBrBnMjZDR57GyppDL72v7jAanHbKcQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:868d:: with SMTP id g13mr2864385ejx.242.1596119435886; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:30:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF71770C@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> <43f707e5-4409-670f-0983-0c672da53ecb@cisco.com> <96779843-a40d-e83b-8d24-baeb6c8648ea@cisco.com> <2a6844df-59ed-ca91-c306-d2288c44a1dc@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2a6844df-59ed-ca91-c306-d2288c44a1dc@cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:30:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: Peter Psenak Cc: Huzhibo , Aijun Wang , lsr , Aijun Wang , Xiaoyaqun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fed7ba05aba9832f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-lsr-prefix-unreachable-annoucement-03.txt X-BeenThere: lsr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Routing Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:30:40 -0000 --000000000000fed7ba05aba9832f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Peter, Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind that BGP say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE in other domain or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP. So if the BGP path is installed it will indeed be at risk to resolve via less specific when it is still active BGP path and you too quickly remove info about unreachability. Thx R. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 PM Peter Psenak wrote: > On 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe node down=EF=BC=8C= the bgp peer must down > > within > > > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via cancle advertise pua= . > > > > for the above it is sufficient to advertise the unreachability for > few > > seconds from each ABR independently. That would be a much more soli= d > > proposal. > > > > > > Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in number of > > implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure. > > depends how you use it. > > If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's sufficient if > it is present for a very short time interval. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > --000000000000fed7ba05aba9832f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Peter,

=
Not sure how smart you really want to be here but keep in mind t= hat BGP say option C may never hear about it all the way to the egress PE i= n other domain=C2=A0or area ... It is almost always incongruent with IGP.= =C2=A0

So if the BGP path is installed it will ind= eed be at risk to resolve via less specific when it is still active BGP pat= h=C2=A0and you too quickly remove info about unreachability.=C2=A0

Thx
R.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 4:21 P= M Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:
On= 30/07/2020 16:14, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 2=EF=BC=9AFor bgp example=EF=BC=8Cwhen the pe= node down=EF=BC=8Cthe bgp peer must down
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0within
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 30 mintus=EF=BC=8CIt will not get it up via c= ancle advertise pua.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the above it is sufficient to advertise the unr= eachability for few
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seconds from each ABR independently. That would be = a much more solid
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposal.
>
>
> Not sure about "few seconds" ... IBGP def hold time in numbe= r of
> implementations is 180 sec :) .. but few minutes will work for sure.
depends how you use it.

If you can use the unreachable info in a smart way, it's sufficient if =
it is present for a very short time interval.

thanks,
Peter

>
> Thx,
> R.
>