From nobody Thu Dec 10 02:32:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58D43A0825; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:32:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wtRlMZdnP8BO; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com (mail-ej1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07ABB3A0C47; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id qw4so6554267ejb.12; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:31:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=H+JXuUuUGHUlso2djv5S0FFTcroIfvpgKrw+5jEcY9Y=; b=omgM/M1DjIuun0ZTFs8oj8IGLQgJV47MM5/oTKXDbaYLZEnAj+i9HtAsH0upMhanPF URlxNrTxs5CX5fmA1IYF40CSCAaLVbOHnMIPDRRubPvsDdcD6SuplwC7f9ftGNRpi7Ug /YqpOgyU/vHzie5NQAzJ6ck6EX+TDTmgWhgoICTTKvoOq0+EBLBRW9ZyazdZp3KhhnAq hnCoUlM4o/uMj3g3M4KB13gadRBDdUasf6a/c9jSl5JdOZqG+DYu50OF0tto+8EbXJl/ qGmCcWGhrWMFacdhiUm90Po1+XCHgUs6F4lCbb8OYVX1SRg3LYQTxQe7DOoqUUoHh2hb sf6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=H+JXuUuUGHUlso2djv5S0FFTcroIfvpgKrw+5jEcY9Y=; b=q86E10qjZis/zJlOqa0U2S8K9Y8sK2rCOQSUBJ8pFF8iASHlh5jtVJPyiVB8c1Ej+d VmfpFsGe3JUBZz/xCzPmN0TMej6RICpJTxuHNAZ/aehNLmEUODAq4Z50+E78cChdjeHc Q1kl3FFr/eronaQucYKb4CUahjldmaycABtZzkJWJtDqn2QujOw2nzM34n7TQUHhEm6U QbCYQEZdVNSVqXi6PxOewYoyu3I6YXHViQlYgLITbYXrroYrNTYBtiZbCnakSLsOiFaR UwHUoMcQyC7IAGFwRo7pxhOGjd70MWOFaojnjflLJ1MpA3I83Je2skxt/oZ6KHUKBElp 4dAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531dy0bjyrA0GtdTX+cbUIYy1PbtavYyi662FT2GJjFVHWr/3foz CUJxgVfCimxd1H7iT+7uuvVT2m5ysSxWvLlc0E4weZoo X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKuC5nB5XIU/ao/1hOoHFBcelTWSUFDBTgDJnKxy8I8z1nUVYwKKJPhSYOTL8h5TYo72MsLHW9nAv4seUOCQc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:cf81:: with SMTP id um1mr5992368ejb.122.1607596317880; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:31:56 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:31:56 -0800 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf@ietf.org Cc: "lsvr-chairs@ietf.org" , Victor Kuarsingh , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] AD Review of draft-ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf-11 X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 10:32:02 -0000 On November 27, 2020 at 10:14:34 AM, Alvaro Retana wrote: Hi! ... > I haven't read draft-ietf-lsvr-applicability yet -- if some of the answer= s > are there, please point me to it. When I finish that document I'll consid= er > whether the documents need to be returned to the WG. For now, I'll rely o= n > the Shepherd to help in moving this document forward. I just finished my review of the applicability draft (sent separately), and have decided to return both documents to the WG. While considering the other document, a couple of additional comments/questions came up. =C2=A0Please see below -- I tried to put them where they might have made sense within the original review, but are new points. Thanks! Alvaro. ... > - In a "traditional" link-state protocol, there are a number of LSAs that > define a node: router LSA, network LSA, etc. Please describe how a node i= s > fully described in BGP SPF -- and how the different NLRIs are associated = to > describe that one node. ... [major] lsvr-applicability talks about the ability of controllers (or other boxes) to listen in on BGP SPF (I'm calling it a "listening node"). =C2=A0Is there an expectation that a BGP SPF peer should advertise a description of itself? If so, then a "listening node" needs to be specified so that it doesn't end up attracting traffic. If not, then not advertising a local description is equivalent to not being available for transit -- if done on purpose (by a rogue node, for example) may result in a partitioned topology, DoS, etc.. ... > 157 A primary advantage is that all BGP speakers in the BGP SPF routing > 158 domain will have a complete view of the topology. ... [major] =C2=A76.5.5/lsvr-applicability talks about using BGP SPF to provide Topology Visibility. =C2=A0How can BGP SPF be used that way? =C2=A0Assuming= that flooding happens before SPF runs (or even regardless of whether it does), I guess that it would be possible to use BGP SPF (and not BGP-LS) to discover the topology. =C2=A0This case may be possible whether of not BGP SPF is used for routing (or has a less-preferred admin distance). =C2=A0Is that something you want to add to the specification? Would a don't-run-SPF mode make sense? Assuming that topology discovery/visibility is a specified application of BGP SPF, we should contrast it with BGP-LS. =C2=A0Several things come to mind: the general distribution model is different, the consumer in BGP-LS is a "listening node" in BGP SPF, the source of the information is different (which may or may not be congruent with the IGP)... ... > 253 2.3. BGP Peering in Route-Reflector or Controller Topology ... > 263 This peering model, known as sparse peering, allows for many fewer > 264 BGP sessions and, consequently, instances of the same NLRI received > 265 from multiple peers. It is discussed in greater detail in > 266 [I-D.ietf-lsvr-applicability]. [] RR/Controllers not congruent with the data path. =C2=A0This is a typical BGP configuration, but in the case of BGP SPF, we end up with typical controller/SDN type issues where the communication goes to the controller before even the directly connected peer (except for link liveliness). =C2=A0Also, what if the connection to the controller is affected by the connectivity of the network itself? I made a similar comment in the lsvr-applicability draft, but because route-reflection (at least the function) is mentioned several times in this document, then it would be idea to include considerations about the (general) use. [major] The applicability draft focuses on the use of BGP SPF in a DC. What about other uses? =C2=A0In general, it seems to me that BGP SPF could be used in many of the same environments where a link-state protocol is used; with the caveats of having a single flooding domain, no dynamic peer discovery,... =C2=A0It might be a good idea to add something like that (a paragraph or two) somewhere, and point to the applicability draft for specifics about DC (and not just a specific peering model, as above). ... > [major] Can the BGP SPF session also support other AFI/SAFI pairs? If so, > what are the implications/limitations because of the peering models. Shou= ld > this document (similar to rfc7752bis) recommend/require the isolation of = BGP > SPF in it's own BGP session? Why/why not? IMHO, it should be required. The other reason for trying to isolate the session is the probable existence of latency sensitive needs in a datacenter. =C2=A0Maybe even going as far as configuring different parameters for the TCP session. Is that something that a BGP SPF implementation in a DC should consider? ... > [major] What about the AS_PATH? lsvr-applicability (=C2=A76.3) talks about using a filter based on the AS_PATH. =C2=A0What checking should be done on the AS_PATH? =C2=A0Should th= e receiver check for an AS loop (which is specified in Phase 2 of the Decision Process)? From nobody Thu Dec 10 02:35:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F863A0C55; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h6f-rkg7-5xb; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 267673A0C4D; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id p22so4912951edu.11; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4l9UItzPJZDwYPc31BDD4ZDfDBcb3B2cA25io3tIaLk=; b=S3S0x+w9CInBIdO5YNgpiuDs9NxDau9J7t164ePagnvSMz82Oa+Rvo1Q/0kIJGTbgK XwfuzyhpgD+/g8on1+/8Yq9wcd5fwm6Tj2igCnQnR/qBTMJtYFfqJiHfWOPwRaat3S0E TrZT2PBk664wfA6VwrIb+E//ijvR7wftv+E7xzrWenro78lPv47gxOsEUvvgp8MUNgGs oxQqtZ4XDrOXNr920UFL4wbqcPbMcqnUffoXO9ZV0qtUc7AswGOs0WmcgJTkNFTbpLq4 OFAVbwdj0n/RBFoNbW747rk2MxBUOo5mArf8H7BTZt7PHqhPdBWUdGbNFCecjZnOymux whBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4l9UItzPJZDwYPc31BDD4ZDfDBcb3B2cA25io3tIaLk=; b=hdQrLCiNcHt3cQLwEorTTxO0cEiKeCyfewtvXl9/fRzMN4Q2bHUBoh9Uopig2aseUb QpY8W8r+oauLwQ7HYSGxmIWpOvnYFFtEa5sKs8r/qkb45ZELvYVfutYxcAHlLYXCkAR4 WGrhoe3BWHP/RZI8L4vLcjKhi0fOZoRhfW6EmfTouWpPuVh+zqDVpKh/xBNKkpS20riO 9ES8NPRax+d3CDX9usRjDaXIyX8WWeLg7gS68/NFLrrnJDhUYpPMqMQsxY3CH4nu9s3s O1nuZ65Dkf04RY//8qTJ8UQHucGjhItp52ZBlnlBW7Ne1jVkEHrKpAU5AnCeAmGPkjdJ 4R5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532r4i6PbHTznW2yvA1DK+Kccl1HBoKVoQTLlFrSjucaDmeeGXXM jHfw2aw6jfkVwwNfViHZLvxh2MJ6zFxNA4l6Gb+YUJB7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy3jK156axfcgzxKVL0DEN6gfQ/mJQEpc9YmqQCAb912nIywktU8FA3YPIYuS7DdYTo/2CJ4cHc5wZ9W1LfO1A= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:845:: with SMTP id b5mr6159130edz.38.1607596511056; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:10 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:35:10 -0800 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-lsvr-applicability@ietf.org Cc: "lsvr-chairs@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Lsvr] AD Review of draft-ietf-lsvr-applicability-07 X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 10:35:22 -0000 Dear authors: I just finished reading this document. =C2=A0As the base specification, this document also needs more work. =C2=A0I have some initial comments, and then specifics in-line below. (1) Currently, this document reads mostly as "using BGP SPF instead of what is described in rfc7938", instead of the expected general "using BGP SPF in a DC". Not only is the eBGP-based model in rfc7938 just one of many that could be considered in a DC, but the protocol was selected and the design developed relying heavily on the characteristics of BGP as a protocol. =C2=A0BGP SPF and BGP are *not* the same protocol and don't have the same characteristics. =C2=A0A simple example: =C2=A75.2.1-5.2.2/rfc7938 describe considerations and a sample ASN scheme based on the well-known behavior of the AS_PATH. =C2=A0To contrast, the BGP SPF spec says that "any attributes that would influence the Decision process defined in [RFC4271]...are ignored" (=C2=A75.1), and there's no mention of the AS_PATH. =C2=A0IOW, the considerations from rfc7938, and =C2=A76.3 in t= his document don't seem to directly match. =C2=A0[I know that the base spec is being worked and this point may change; but for now, there is no normative behavior to stand on.] Instead of trying to replace rfc7938, please focus on describing how BGP SPF (specifically draft-ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf) can be used in a DC and the related operational considerations. To be clear, referencing rfc7938 is not a bad thing -- but do it in an Informative way, as an example...not as the guide for deploying BGP SPF. (2) It would be very nice, as part of describing the use (without depending so heavily on rfc7938), if the descriptions included topology figures for reference. =C2=A0I know that ASCII-art is not the best/easiest, but luckily xmltorfc v3 let's you also include SVG drawings. (3) There are some sections that don't belong in a "this is how you use BGP SPF" document. =C2=A0For example, the justification for BGP SPF and requirements for future work. =C2=A0I included specific comments in-line, but in general, those sections should be removed. Given that this document depends heavily on the BGP SPF specification, and that the spec requires a significant amount of work, I am returning both documents to the WG. Thanks! Alvaro. P.S. =C2=A0I'm not sure if this review will be fully received by all mailers. =C2=A0Please check the archive. =C2=A0I also put an "[End of Revie= w]" indicator. [Line numbers from idnits.] ... 11 =C2=A0Usage and Applicability of Link State Vector Routing in Data Cent= ers [] While I personally like the term LSVR more than BGP SPF, the protocol spec doesn't use LSVR anywhere. =C2=A0This whole document should be consistent with it in relation to all the terminology (not just LSVR vs BGP SPF). =C2=A0I am not going to repeat this comment everywhere; please update all the instances in line with the spec. ... 84 1. =C2=A0Introduction ... 90 =C2=A0 After describing the deployment scenario, Section 5 will describ= e the 91 =C2=A0 reasons for BGP modifications for such deployments. [major] As mentioned in I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf: what is specified is a new link-state protocol...not just BGP modifications. =C2=A0IOW, the motivation (if it was needed) should be about the need for a link-state protocol based on the BGP transport, and not about modifying BGP. ... 98 2. =C2=A0Requirements Language 100 =C2=A0 The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL N= OT", 101 =C2=A0 "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY"= , and 102 =C2=A0 "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described = in BCP 103 =C2=A0 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all 104 =C2=A0 capitals, as shown here. [major] There's only one place where an rfc2119 keyword is used...and it doesn't belong in this draft. =C2=A0I don't think we need this boilerplate. 106 3. =C2=A0Recommended Reading 108 =C2=A0 This document assumes knowledge of existing data center network= s and 109 =C2=A0 data center network topologies [CLOS]. =C2=A0This document also= assumes 110 =C2=A0 knowledge of data center routing protocols like BGP [RFC4271], = BGP- 111 =C2=A0 SPF [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf], OSPF [RFC2328], as well as, data c= enter 112 =C2=A0 OAM protocols like LLDP [RFC4957] and BFD [RFC5580]. [major] "assumes knowledge of...[CLOS]" =C2=A0This reference makes the CLOS document a Normative reference because it "must be read to understand or implement the technology in the new RFC" [1]. =C2=A0While this shouldn't be a big issue, I couldn't find a place where the document is freely available (I did a quick 1-minute search) -- that is an issue! It seems to me that the contents of this document don't require all the information in [CLOS]. =C2=A0Consider either (1) finding a link to a freely available reference, or, (2) include a figure and description of a general topology that can be used as reference (and mention [CLOS] as an additional resource). =C2=A0Note that the description in rfc7938 could also be another informative reference. =C2=A0My personal preference would be #2. [1] https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative= -references/ [minor] "assumes knowledge of data center routing protocols like BGP [RFC4271], BGP-SPF [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf], OSPF [RFC2328]" =C2=A0Isn't knowing about BGP SPF enough? =C2=A0If not, then the references to rfc4271/rfc2328 should be Normative. [major] Why does the reader need knowledge of LLDP? =C2=A0It is not mentioned anywhere else. [minor] s/BFD [RFC5580]/BFD [RFC5880] [major] Why does the reader need knowledge of BFD? =C2=A0Note that the BGP SPF spec should be treating BFD as an example, at best. 114 4. =C2=A0Common Deployment Scenario 116 =C2=A0 Within a Data Center, servers are commonly interconnected the C= LOS 117 =C2=A0 topology [CLOS]. =C2=A0The CLOS topology is fully non-blocking = and the 118 =C2=A0 topology is realized using Equal Cost Multi-Path (ECMP). =C2=A0= In a CLOS 119 =C2=A0 topology, the minimum number of parallel paths between two serv= ers is 120 =C2=A0 determined by the width of a tier-1 stage as shown in the figur= e 1. [nit] s/interconnected the CLOS topology/interconnected using a CLOS topolo= gy [nit] s/topology is fully non-blocking and the topology is realized/topology is fully non-blocking and is realized 122 =C2=A0 The following example illustrates multi-stage CLOS topology. [nit] s/illustrates multi-stage/illustrates a multi-stage ... 149 5. =C2=A0Justification for BGP SPF Extension [] This section basically says that BGP converges slower than BGP SPF. That is not a glowing justification to develop a new protocol when others (traditional link-state protocols, for example) would have similar characteristics. Having said that, I don't think it is the job of this document to justify the existence of BGP SPF -- but just to tell the reader how it applies to a DC. ... 171 6. =C2=A0LSVR Applicability to CLOS Networks 173 =C2=A0 With the BGP SPF extensions [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf], the BGP be= st- 174 =C2=A0 path computation and route computation are replaced with OSPF-l= ike 175 =C2=A0 algorithms [RFC2328] both to determine whether an BGP-LS SPF NL= RI has 176 =C2=A0 changed and needs to be re-advertised and to compute the BGP ro= utes. 177 =C2=A0 These modifications will significantly improve convergence of t= he 178 =C2=A0 underlay while affording the operational benefits of a single r= outing 179 =C2=A0 protocol [RFC7938]. [minor] s/OSPF-like algorithms [RFC2328]/an SPF algorithm [minor] s/BGP routes/BGP SPF routes [major] "will significantly improve convergence of the underlay while affording the operational benefits" =C2=A0 This sounds like nice text for a marketing brochure. =C2=A0This document should not be a place to put down other solutions, and much less to do so without substantiation. =C2=A0I'm not asking for tests to show faster convergence (not needed!), just that the text stay focused on the use of BGP SPF in a DC (not how other protocols do it or not). [] "single routing protocol [RFC7938]." =C2=A0I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf is not clear about the use (or not) of multiple AFI/SAFI pairs in the same peering session. =C2=A0That is not an issue for this document -- just pointing at it here so we don't forget to remain consistent. 181 =C2=A0 Data center controllers typically require visibility to the BGP 182 =C2=A0 topology to compute traffic-engineered paths. =C2=A0These contr= ollers 183 =C2=A0 learn the topology and other relevant information via the BGP-L= S 184 =C2=A0 address family [RFC7752] which is totally independent of the un= derlay 185 =C2=A0 address families (usually IPv4/IPv6 unicast). =C2=A0Furthermore= , in 186 =C2=A0 traditional BGP underlays, all the BGP routers will need to adv= ertise 187 =C2=A0 their BGP-LS information independently. =C2=A0With the BGP SPF = extensions, 188 =C2=A0 controllers can learn the topology using the same BGP advertise= ments 189 =C2=A0 used to compute the underlay routes. =C2=A0Furthermore, these d= ata center 190 =C2=A0 controllers can avail the convergence advantages of the BGP SPF 191 =C2=A0 extensions. =C2=A0The placement of controllers can be outside o= f the 192 =C2=A0 forwarding path or within the forwarding path. [nit] s/BGP topology/network topology [minor] "all the BGP routers will need to advertise their BGP-LS information independently" =C2=A0Please add an Informative reference to how that is done. [nit] s/BGP advertisements/advertisements [] "these data center controllers can avail the convergence advantages of the BGP SPF extensions" =C2=A0Another nice piece of marketing. =C2=A0Not= e that if each node independently advertises BGP-LS information then there is no propagation/convergence delay. =C2=A0In the case of BGP SPF, if the controller is listening at a specific point in the topology, then there is propagation delay. 194 =C2=A0 Alternatively, as each and every router in the BGP SPF domain w= ill 195 =C2=A0 have a complete view of the topology, the operator can also cho= ose to 196 =C2=A0 configure BGP sessions in hop-by-hop peering model described in 197 =C2=A0 [RFC7938] along with BFD [RFC5580]. =C2=A0In doing so, while th= e hop-by- 198 =C2=A0 hop peering model lacks the inherent benefits of the controller= -based 199 =C2=A0 model, BGP updates need not be serialized by BGP best-path algo= rithm 200 =C2=A0 in either of these models. =C2=A0This helps overall network con= vergence. [] This paragraph seems to mix BGP SPF and "normal" BGP peering ala rfc7938. =C2=A0I don't follow what the point it -- I'm lost. 202 6.1. =C2=A0Usage of BGP-LS SPF SAFI 204 =C2=A0 The BGP SPF extensions [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf] define a new BGP= -LS 205 =C2=A0 SPF SAFI for announcement of BGP SPF link-state. =C2=A0The NLRI= format and 206 =C2=A0 its associated attributes follow the format of BGP-LS for node,= link, 207 =C2=A0 and prefix announcements. =C2=A0Whether the peering model withi= n a CLOS 208 =C2=A0 follows hop-by-hop peering described in [RFC7938] or any contro= ller- 209 =C2=A0 based or route-reflector peering, an operator can exchange BGP = SPF 210 =C2=A0 SAFI routes over the BGP peering by simply configuring BGP SPF = SAFI 211 =C2=A0 between the necessary BGP speakers. [] Here again there's a mix between rfc7938 and BGP SPF -- what am I missin= g? [major] Route-reflectors don't exist in BGP SPF -- at last not in the same manner as they do in "normal" BGP. 213 =C2=A0 The BGP-LS SPF SAFI can also co-exist with BGP IP Unicast SAFI = which 214 =C2=A0 could exchange overlapping IP routes. =C2=A0The routes received= by these 215 =C2=A0 SAFIs are evaluated, stored, and announced independently accord= ing to 216 =C2=A0 the rules of [RFC4760]. =C2=A0The tie-breaking of route install= ation is a 217 =C2=A0 matter of the local policies and preferences of the network ope= rator. [major] Co-existence. =C2=A0The BGP SPF specification is not clear about th= at. [minor] "routes...are evaluated, stored, and announced...according to the rules of [RFC4760]" =C2=A0 s/rfc4760/rfc4271 [minor] "tie-breaking...is a matter of the local policies and preferences" =C2=A0True. =C2=A0This phrase is true regardless of where othe= r routing information was learned from (including local routes), right? It feels as if the only case being addressed is one where BGP/BGP SPF are used for the over/underlay, and not the general case -- maybe the general case is the one with BGP overlay...describe that (from scratch) instead of trying to replace a point solution. 219 =C2=A0 Finally, as the BGP SPF peering is done following the procedure= s 220 =C2=A0 described in [RFC4271], all the existing transport security 221 =C2=A0 mechanisms including [RFC5925] are available for the BGP-LS SPF= SAFI. [major] "peering is done following...[RFC4271]...security mechanisms including [RFC5925] are available" =C2=A0This is not accurate because rfc4271 requires MD5, not TCP-AO. =C2=A0Also, note that I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf doesn't say anything about authentication, relying on what is defined in rfc4271. While I have no issues with using TCP-AO, this is not the document to suggest changes to rfc4271. This piece of text makes an interesting point (not sure if it was mean that way) when it points out that TCP-AO is "available [specifically] for the BGP-LS SPF SAFI". =C2=A0The interesting part is of course that TCP authentication is shared by whatever BGP is carrying. =C2=A0If the BGP SPF sessions are dedicated to it (i.e. no other AFI/SAFI is negotiated), then there's no reason why a different authentication mechanism can't be used. =C2=A0As I mentioned in my review of the BGP SPF spec, I would like to see a requirement for isolating the BGP SPF sessions (similar to rfc7752bis) -- personal opinion, of course. The other reason for trying to isolate the session is the probable existence of latency sensitive needs in a datacenter. =C2=A0Maybe even going as far as configuring different parameters for the TCP session. 223 6.1.1. =C2=A0Relationship to Other BGP AFI/SAFI Tuples 225 =C2=A0 Normally, the BGP-LS AFI/SAFI is used solely to compute the und= erlay 226 =C2=A0 and is given preference over other AFI/SAFIs. =C2=A0Other BGP S= AFIs, e.g., 227 =C2=A0 IPv6/IPv6 Unicast VPN would use the BGP-SPF computed routes for= next 228 =C2=A0 hop resolution. =C2=A0However, if BGP-LS NLRI is also being adv= ertised for 229 =C2=A0 controller consumption, there is no need to replicate the Node,= Link, 230 =C2=A0 and Prefix NLRI in BGP-NLRI. =C2=A0Rather, additional NLRI attr= ibutes can 231 =C2=A0 be advertised in the BGP-LS SPF AFI/SAFI as required (e.g., BGP= -LS TE 232 =C2=A0 metric extensions [RFC8571] and BGP-LS segment routing extensio= ns 233 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext]). [major] "BGP-LS AFI/SAFI...is given preference over other AFI/SAFIs" Preference where? =C2=A0How? [major] "...if BGP-LS NLRI is also being advertised for controller consumpt= ion, there is no need to replicate the Node, Link, and Prefix NLRI in BGP-NLRI. Rather, additional NLRI attributes can be advertised in the BGP-LS SPF AFI/= SAFI as required..." It is not clear to me which of these two cases you're illustrating here -- whichever it is, please find a clearer way to explain: (1) A controller is receiving BGP-LS, and can learn additional details by listening to BGP SPF (as already suggested in =C2=A76). =C2=A0Why wouldn= 't that additional information already be in BGP-LS? =C2=A0Where is the BGP-LS information coming from? (2) A router (not a controller) can use the BGP-LS information (complemented by additional details carried in BGP SPF). =C2=A0Again, where is the BGP-LS information coming from? =C2=A0Why wouldn't the additional information be carried by BGP-LS? =C2=A0If the NLRI information is carried in BGP-LS (and is to be used in the SPF computation), how is it validated? 235 6.2. =C2=A0Peering Models 237 =C2=A0 As previously stated, BGP SPF can be deployed using the existin= g 238 =C2=A0 peering model where there is a single-hop BGP session on each a= nd 239 =C2=A0 every link in the data center fabric [RFC7938]. =C2=A0This prov= ides for 240 =C2=A0 both the advertisement of routes and the determination of link = and 241 =C2=A0 neighboring switch availability. =C2=A0With BGP SPF, the underl= ay will 242 =C2=A0 converge faster due to changes to the decision process that wil= l 243 =C2=A0 allow NLRI changes to be advertised faster after detecting a ch= ange. [minor] "provides for both the advertisement of routes and the determination of link and neighboring switch availability" =C2=A0 What does this mean? [] "the underlay will converge faster" =C2=A0Marketing... 245 6.2.1. =C2=A0Sparse Peering Model 247 =C2=A0 Alternately, BFD [RFC5580] can be used to swiftly determine the 248 =C2=A0 availability of links and the BGP peering model can be signific= antly 249 =C2=A0 sparser than the data center fabric. =C2=A0BGP SPF sessions onl= y need to 250 =C2=A0 be established with enough peers to provide a bi-connected grap= h. =C2=A0If 251 =C2=A0 IEBGP is used, then the BGP routers at tier N-1 will act as rou= te- 252 =C2=A0 reflectors for the routers at tier N. [nit] s/Alternately, BFD/BFD [minor] "bi-connected graph" =C2=A0Put a forward reference to =C2=A76.2.2, [major] "IEBGP" =C2=A0 Where is this defined? =C2=A0The BGP SPF spec doesn'= t mention it... 254 =C2=A0 The obvious usage of sparse peering is to avoid parallel BGP se= ssions 255 =C2=A0 on links between the same two switches in the data center fabri= c. 256 =C2=A0 However, this use case is not very useful since parallel layer-= 3 257 =C2=A0 links between the same two BGP routers are rare in CLOS or Fat-= Tree 258 =C2=A0 topologies. =C2=A0Additionally, when there are multiple links, = they are 259 =C2=A0 often aggregated at the link layer rather than the IP layer. = =C2=A0Two 260 =C2=A0 more interesting scenarios are described below. [minor] "multiple links, they are often aggregated at the link layer" I'm not sure if you mean that the link information can be advertised as a single link. =C2=A0Where is that covered? =C2=A0I don't recall the top= ic of link aggregation in the BGP SPF spec. 262 =C2=A0 In current data center topologies, there is often a very dense = mesh 263 =C2=A0 of links between levels, e.g., leaf and spine, providing 32-way= , 264 =C2=A0 64-way, or more Equal-Cost Multi-Path (ECMP) paths. =C2=A0In th= ese 265 =C2=A0 topologies, it is desirable not to have a BGP session on every = link 266 =C2=A0 and techniques such as the one described in Section 6.2.2 can b= e used 267 =C2=A0 establish sessions on some subset of northbound links. =C2=A0Fo= r example, 268 =C2=A0 in a Spine-Leaf topology, each leaf switch would only peer with= a 269 =C2=A0 subset of the spines dependent on the flooding redundancy requi= red to 270 =C2=A0 be reasonably certain that every node within the BGP-LS SPF rou= ting 271 =C2=A0 domain has the complete topology. [nit] "In current data center topologies..." =C2=A0A drawing is worth a thousand words. =C2=A0Maybe refer to Figure 1 so the reader doesn't have to make assumptions about what "current" is. [nit] "be reasonably certain" =C2=A0That is not enough. 273 =C2=A0 Alternately, controller-based data center topologies are envisi= oned 274 =C2=A0 where BGP speakers within the data center only establish BGP se= ssions 275 =C2=A0 with two or more controllers. =C2=A0In these topologies, fabric= nodes 276 =C2=A0 below the first tier (using [RFC7938] hierarchy) will establish= BGP 277 =C2=A0 multi-hop sessions with the controllers. =C2=A0For the multi-ho= p sessions, 278 =C2=A0 determining the route to the controllers without depending on B= GP 279 =C2=A0 would need to be through some other means beyond the scope of t= his 280 =C2=A0 document. =C2=A0However, the BGP discovery mechanisms described= in 281 =C2=A0 Section 6.5 would be one possibility. [nit] "first tier (using [RFC7938] hierarchy)" =C2=A0Using a reference in this document would be better. [minor] "route to the controllers" =C2=A0There is plenty of literature (I think even some IRTF documents) that deal with the potential issues with multi-hop, controller based deployments. =C2=A0Convergence is one of those issues. =C2=A0I would like to then see considerations related to the selection of a peering model: reasons, pros, cons, etc. 283 6.2.2. =C2=A0Bi-Connected Graph Heuristic 285 =C2=A0 With this heuristic, discovery of BGP peers is assumed, e.g., a= s 286 =C2=A0 described in Section 6.5. =C2=A0Additionally, it assumed that t= he 287 =C2=A0 direction of the peering can be ascertained. =C2=A0In the conte= xt of a 288 =C2=A0 data center fabric, direction is either northbound (toward the 289 =C2=A0 spine), southbound (toward the Top-Of-Rack (TOR) switches) or e= ast- 290 =C2=A0 west (same level in hierarchy. =C2=A0The determination of the d= irection is 291 =C2=A0 beyond the scope of this document. =C2=A0However, it would be r= easonable 292 =C2=A0 to assume a technique where the TOR switches can be identified = and 293 =C2=A0 the number of hops to the TOR is used to determine the directio= n. [nit] s/it assumed/it is assumed [nit] s/(same level in hierarchy/(same level in hierarchy) [major] =C2=A76.1.1 explains the sparse peering model; the deployment depends on establishing a bi-connected graph, which depends on both discovery and the "direction of the peering". =C2=A0*But*, determining the direction is out of scope, and discovery is at this point wishful thinking (from a specification point of view). =C2=A0IOW, there's no real explanation of the heuristic. =C2=A0Also, the BGP SPF spec doesn't cover either. 295 =C2=A0 In this heuristic, BGP speakers allow passive session establish= ment 296 =C2=A0 for southbound BGP sessions. =C2=A0For northbound sessions, BGP= speakers 297 =C2=A0 will attempt to maintain two northbound BGP sessions with diffe= rent 298 =C2=A0 switches (in data center fabrics there is normally a single lay= er-3 299 =C2=A0 connection anyway). =C2=A0For east-west sessions, passive BGP s= ession 300 =C2=A0 establishment is allowed. =C2=A0However, BGP speaker will never= actively 301 =C2=A0 establish an east-west BGP session unless it cannot establish t= wo 302 =C2=A0 northbound BGP sessions. [major] "passive session establishment" =C2=A0 I'm assuming that this refers to the PassiveTcpEstablishment session attribute from the FSM. If so, please be specific and point to rfc4271. [major] This paragraph describes, at a high level, the dynamic behavior of the peers, but it is not clear how the behavior is achieved: if automatic, assuming that the direction of the peering is known, or if there's a configuration expectation to (at least) indicate the active/passive state of the sessions. 304 6.3. =C2=A0BGP Spine/Leaf Topology Policy 306 =C2=A0 One of the advantages of using BGP SPF as the underlay protocol= is 307 =C2=A0 that BGP policy can be applied at any level. =C2=A0For example,= depending 308 =C2=A0 upon the topology, it may be possible to aggregate prefix 309 =C2=A0 advertisements using existing BGP policy. =C2=A0In Spine/Leaf t= opologies, 310 =C2=A0 it is not necessary to advertise BGP-LS NLRI received by leaves 311 =C2=A0 northbound to the spine nodes at the level above. =C2=A0If a co= mmon AS is 312 =C2=A0 used for the spine nodes, this can easily be accomplished with = EBGP 313 =C2=A0 and a simple policy to filter advertisements from the leaves to= the 314 =C2=A0 spine if the first AS in the AS path is the spine AS. [major] Yes, "BGP policy can be applied at any level". =C2=A0However, just like with mesh-groups in OSPF/ISIS this type of flooding control mechanism requires careful consideration: filter too much and backup flooding paths may be lost, filter too little and achieve no advantage. =C2=A0The example given (the leaves don't send received routes up) is straight forward. =C2=A0Given that that is only an example (not the only recommendation), I would like to see operational considerations for the general case. [major] "aggregate prefix advertisements" =C2=A0I don't see any mention of aggregation in the BGP SPF spec. =C2=A0Maybe by "aggregation" you mean filtering, or possibly limiting flooding, or... [minor] "If a common AS is used for the spine nodes..." =C2=A0What about the general case? =C2=A0Is using a common ASN for the spines (or per level) a recommendation for BGP SPF in a DC, or just an example? [nit] s/BGP-LS NLRI/BGP SPF NLRI [minor] "...filter advertisements from the leaves to the spine if the first AS in the AS path is the spine AS." =C2=A0The BGP SPF spec says that the attributes are ignored -- I would then assume that the AS_PATH is not validated (or used), or is it? ... 319 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2= =A0 =C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--------+ 320 =C2=A0 =C2=A0AS 64512 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 321 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for Spine =C2=A0 | Spine 1+----+ Spine 2+- ......... -+ S= pine N| 322 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nodes at =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 323 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this Level =C2=A0+-+-+-+-++ =C2=A0 =C2=A0++-+-+-+-+ =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-+-+-+-++ 324 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +------+ | | | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= | | | | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | | | | 325 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0+-----|-|-|------+ | | | = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | | | | 326 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0+--|-|-|--------+-|= -|-----------------+ | | | 327 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | | =C2= =A0 =C2=A0+---+ | | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 | | | 328 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | | =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0+--|-|-------------------+ | | 329 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | | =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0+------+ +----+ 330 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | | =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| +--------------|----------+ =C2=A0| 331 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | | =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0+-------------+ =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0| 332 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| | +----|-= -|----------------|--|--------+ | =C2=A0| 333 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0| +------|-= -|--------------+ | =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| | =C2=A0| 334 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0| =C2=A0| =C2=A0+------+ | = =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| | =C2=A0| =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| | =C2=A0| 335 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0++--+--++ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-= -++ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0++-+--+-+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ++-+--= +-+ 336 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Leaf 1|~~~~~~| Leaf 2| =C2=A0.....= ... =C2=A0| Leaf X| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Leaf Y| 337 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-----= --+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-------+ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +-----= --+ [nit] Is that squiggly line between Leaf 1 and Leaf 2 meant to be a link between them? =C2=A0If so, then they will be transit for each other...is that what you meant? 339 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure = 2: Spine/Leaf Topology Policy 341 6.4. =C2=A0BGP Peer Discovery Requirements [major] Peer Discovery is not covered in the BGP SPF spec. =C2=A0Why are requirements included here? [] I didn't include comments on the requirements. ... 386 6.5.1. =C2=A0BGP Peer Discovery Alternatives [major] This subject is speculative at this point. =C2=A0As you start saying: "peer discovery is not part of [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf]". 388 =C2=A0 While BGP peer discovery is not part of [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf]= , 389 =C2=A0 there are, at least, three proposals for BGP peer discovery. = =C2=A0At 390 =C2=A0 least one of these mechanisms will be adopted and will be appli= cable 391 =C2=A0 to deployments other than the data center. =C2=A0It is strongly 392 =C2=A0 RECOMMENDED that the accepted mechanism be used in conjunction = with 393 =C2=A0 BGP SPF in data centers. =C2=A0The BGP discovery mechanism shou= ld 394 =C2=A0 discovery both peer addresses and endpoints for BFD discovery. 395 =C2=A0 Additionally, it would be great if there were a heuristic for 396 =C2=A0 determining whether the peer is at a tier above or below the 397 =C2=A0 discovering BGP speaker (refer to Section 6.2.2). ... 403 6.5.2. =C2=A0BGP IPv6 Simplified Peering 405 =C2=A0 In order to conserve IPv4 address space and simplify operations= , BGP- 406 =C2=A0 LS SPF routers in CLOS/Fat-Tree deployments can use IPv6 addres= ses as 407 =C2=A0 peer address. =C2=A0For IPv4 address families, IPv6 peering as = specified 408 =C2=A0 in [RFC5549] can be deployed to avoid configuring IPv4 addresse= s on 409 =C2=A0 BGP-LS SPF router interfaces. =C2=A0When this is done, dynamic = discovery 410 =C2=A0 mechanisms, as described in Section 6.5, can used to learn the = global 411 =C2=A0 or link-local IPv6 peer addresses and IPv4 addresses need not b= e 412 =C2=A0 configured on these interfaces. =C2=A0If IPv6 link-local peerin= g is used, 413 =C2=A0 then configuration of IPv6 global addresses is also not require= d and 414 =C2=A0 these IPv6 link-local addresses must then be advertised in the = BGP-LS 415 =C2=A0 Link Descriptor IPv6 Address TLV (262) [RFC7752]. [major] "as specified in [RFC5549]" =C2=A0This is not covered in the BGP SP= F spec. 417 6.5.3. =C2=A0BGP-LS SPF Topology Visibility for Management [minor] This sub-section doesn't seem to belong in =C2=A76.5: BGP Peer Disc= overy. 419 =C2=A0 Irrespective of whether or not BGP-LS SPF is used for route 420 =C2=A0 calculation, the BGP-LS SPF route advertisements can be used to 421 =C2=A0 periodically construct the CLOS/FAT Tree topology. =C2=A0This i= s 422 =C2=A0 especially useful in deployments where an IGP is not used and t= he 423 =C2=A0 base BGP-LS routes [RFC7752] are not available. =C2=A0The resul= tant 424 =C2=A0 topology visibility can then be used for troubleshooting and 425 =C2=A0 consistency checking. =C2=A0This would normally be done on a ce= ntral 426 =C2=A0 controller or other management tool which could also be used fo= r 427 =C2=A0 fabric data path verification. =C2=A0The precise algorithms and 428 =C2=A0 heuristics, as well as, the complete set of management applicat= ions 429 =C2=A0 is beyond the scope of this document. [nit] s/BGP-LS SPF/BGP SPF/g [major] "whether or not BGP-LS SPF is used for route calculation, the BGP-LS SPF route advertisements can be used" =C2=A0The BGP SPF spec doesn't cover a mode where routes are advertised, but route calculation is not done. =C2=A0Maybe you mean that the routes are not used (as in having a less-preferred admin distance), or maybe you meant that BGP-LS (not BGP SPF) is used -- but the text also says that "the base BGP-LS routes [RFC7752] are not available" (base routes?). 431 6.5.4. =C2=A0Data Center Interconnect (DCI) Applicability 433 =C2=A0 Since BGP SPF is to be used for the routing underlay and DCI ga= teway 434 =C2=A0 boxes typically have direct or very simple connectivity, BGP ex= ternal 435 =C2=A0 sessions would typically not include the BGP SPF SAFI. [minor] "would typically not include" =C2=A0That is not a strong don't use. What are the considerations for using BGP SPF, or not? 437 7. =C2=A0Non-CLOS/FAT Tree Topology Applicability 439 =C2=A0 The BGP SPF extensions [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf] can be used in o= ther 440 =C2=A0 topologies and avail the inherent convergence improvements. 441 =C2=A0 Additionally, sparse peering techniques may be utilized Section= 6.2. 442 =C2=A0 However, determining whether or to establish a BGP session is m= ore 443 =C2=A0 complex and the heuristic described in Section 6.2.2 cannot be = used. 444 =C2=A0 In such topologies, other techniques such as those described in 445 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-lsr-dynamic-flooding] may be employed. =C2=A0One pote= ntial 446 =C2=A0 deployment would be the underlay for a Service Provider (SP) ba= ckbone 447 =C2=A0 where usage of a single protocol, i.e., BGP, is desired. [major] This document is about applicability of BGP SPF in a DC, so this section seems out of place. =C2=A0Even if it was to remain, the text doesn't provide any useful information (beyond the fact that BGP SPF could be used elsewhere). 449 8. =C2=A0Non-Transit Node Capability 451 =C2=A0 In certain scenarios, a BGP node wishes to participate in the B= GP SPF 452 =C2=A0 topology but never be used for transit traffic. =C2=A0These in = include 453 =C2=A0 situations where a server wants to make application services 454 =C2=A0 available to clients homed at subnets throughout the BGP SPF do= main 455 =C2=A0 but does not ever want to be used as a router (i.e., carry tran= sit 456 =C2=A0 traffic). =C2=A0Another specific instance is where a controller= is 457 =C2=A0 resident on a server and direct connectivity to the controller = is 458 =C2=A0 required throughout the entire domain. =C2=A0This can readily b= e 459 =C2=A0 accomplished using the BGP-LS Node NLRI Attribute SPF Status TL= V as 460 =C2=A0 described in [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf]. [nit] "a BGP node wishes" =C2=A0The operator wishes sometimes, I doubt the = node does. [nit] s/in include/include [minor] For the case where a "server...but does not ever want to be used as a router", please be a little more descriptive on the setup. It seems that you're assuming that the server itself is running BGP SPF (vs being connected through a router), right? =C2=A0Of course, a server might only be used as transit if multiple interfaces are used with BGP SPF... =C2=A0Please be explicit. [minor] Same comment for the "controller is resident on a server" case. 462 9. =C2=A0BGP Policy Applicability 464 =C2=A0 Existing BGP policy including aggregation and prefix filtering = may be 465 =C2=A0 used in conjunction with the BGP-LS SPF SAFI. =C2=A0When aggreg= ation 466 =C2=A0 policy is used, BGP-LS SPF prefix NLRI will be originated for t= he 467 =C2=A0 aggregate prefix and BGP-LS SPF prefix NLRI for components will= be 468 =C2=A0 filtered. =C2=A0Additionally, link and node NLRI may be filtere= d and the 469 =C2=A0 abstracted by the prefix NLRI. [major] Again, I didn't see a specification for aggregation in the BGP SPF draft. [minor] Is "abstracted by the prefix NLRI" the same thing as aggregation? 471 =C2=A0 When BGP policy is used with the BGP-LS SPF SAFI, BGP speakers = in the 472 =C2=A0 BGP-LS SPF routing domain will not all have the same set of NLR= I and 473 =C2=A0 will compute a different BGP local routing table. =C2=A0Consequ= ently, care 474 =C2=A0 must be taken to assure routing is consistent and blackholes or 475 =C2=A0 routing loops do not ensue. =C2=A0However, this is no different= than if 476 =C2=A0 tradition BGP routing using the IPv4 and IPv6 address families = were 477 =C2=A0 used. [major] Yes, it is different! =C2=A0A link-state protocol is definitely different than a path vector one. =C2=A0Among other things, SPF depends on everyone having a view of the topology. =C2=A0Please include considerations/consequences when applying filters. ... 483 11. =C2=A0Security Considerations 485 =C2=A0 This document introduces no new security considerations above a= nd 486 =C2=A0 beyond those already specified in the [RFC4271] and 487 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-lsvr-bgp-spf]. [major] True. =C2=A0For the benefit of other readers, please include a quick description of what this document is about: For example> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document discusses the use of BGP SPF in a DC. =C2=A0As a= description of its =C2=A0 =C2=A0use, it introduces no new... ... 513 13.2. =C2=A0Informative References 515 =C2=A0 [CLOS] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "A Study of Non-Blocking Switching Network= s", =C2=A0The Bell 516 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0System Technical Journ= al, Vol. 32(2), DOI 517 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A010.1002/j.1538-7305.19= 53.tb01433.x, March 1953. ... 548 =C2=A0 [RFC2328] =C2=A0Moy, J., "OSPF Version 2", STD 54, RFC 2328, 549 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOI 10.17487/RFC2328, = April 1998, 550 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0. 552 =C2=A0 [RFC4271] =C2=A0Rekhter, Y., Ed., Li, T., Ed., and S. Hares, Ed= ., "A 553 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Border Gateway Protoco= l 4 (BGP-4)", RFC 4271, 554 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOI 10.17487/RFC4271, = January 2006, 555 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0. [major] Because of =C2=A73, these 3 references must be Normative. =C2=A0Ple= ase see my comments there. ... 593 =C2=A0 [RFC7938] =C2=A0Lapukhov, P., Premji, A., and J. Mitchell, Ed.,= "Use of 594 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP for Routing in Lar= ge-Scale Data Centers", RFC 7938, 595 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOI 10.17487/RFC7938, = August 2016, 596 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0. [major] The current text relies heavily on rfc7938. =C2=A0As is, that would require this reference to be Normative. =C2=A0See my comments at the start of this message. 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<0CCBF818-C3C8-454C-8F87-07CD1F76FE1B@cisco.com> References: <0CCBF818-C3C8-454C-8F87-07CD1F76FE1B@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 11:50:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "draft-ietf-lsvr-applicability@ietf.org" Cc: "lsvr-chairs@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000185ed505b6217dad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] AD Review of draft-ietf-lsvr-applicability-07 X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 19:50:36 -0000 --000000000000185ed505b6217dad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Acee: Hi! I purposefully try to no do that so I don=E2=80=99t interfere with the WG p= rocess. It is up to the WG (not the AD) to determine when a document is ready to be forwarded to the IESG. I don=E2=80=99t want my opinion to influence the WG= =E2=80=99s decision, not only if I think it might be ready but the WG doesn=E2=80=99t,= but more importantly the other way around. Having said that, if the Chairs want my opinion on a document they can ask. I can take a quick look, but an in-depth review will have to wait. Alvaro. On December 10, 2020 at 6:02:14 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) (acee@cisco.com) wrote: In the future, as the responsible LSVR AD, it would be helpful if you would review the drafts prior to request for publication. --000000000000185ed505b6217dad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Acee:

Hi!

I= purposefully try to no do that so I don=E2=80=99t interfere with the WG pr= ocess.=C2=A0 It is up to the WG (not the AD) to determine when a document i= s ready to be forwarded to the IESG.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t want my opinion = to influence the WG=E2=80=99s decision, not only if I think it might be rea= dy but the WG doesn=E2=80=99t, but more importantly the other way around.

Having said that, if= the Chairs want my opinion on a document they can ask.=C2=A0 I can take a = quick look, but an in-depth review will have to wait.

Alvaro.

On December 10, 2020 at 6:02:14 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) (acee@cisco.com) wrote:

In the future, as the responsible LSVR AD, it = would be helpful if you would review the drafts prior to request for public= ation.
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