From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 11:51:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdVVV-0004xQ-1s; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:51:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdVVT-0004xK-C0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:51:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28309 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdVpJ-0002Sx-2o for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:12:18 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51FpMXD007068; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:51:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imp ose length constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:51:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, I support Randy's suggested update to Security Considerations too. I still think it would be good to specify a lower bound of length for language tags that SHOULD be supported by conforming implementations. Because in the RFC3066bis real-world language tags may very well be much longer than the classic 'll-CC'. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:50 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation > impose length constraints? > > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > >> Won't work: Variants and private use subtags are not bounded in > >> number. Neither can extension lengths be known in advance. > > > > Then I think we really need to add something like the > following to the > > security considerations section, as part of this issue's > resolution / > > rejection: > > > > Since there is no limit to the number of variant and private use > > subtags, and consequently no limit on the possible length of a tag, > > implementations need to guard against buffer overflow attacks. See > > section ## for details on tag truncation, which can occur as a > > consequence of defenses against buffer overflow. > > Yes. Excellent. > > -- > Doug Ewell > Fullerton, California > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 12:37:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdWDL-0001rD-GD; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:37:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdWDK-0001qU-Bd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:37:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02721 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdWX9-0004pX-Ba for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:57:35 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:36:51 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation impose length constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:36:50 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A30F@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation impose length constraints? Thread-Index: AcVmwhvJkvG16h6ERLSG1TibtEPiOQAA644w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 16:36:51.0372 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CDDD6C0:01C566C8] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0475519549==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0475519549== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T2theSwgaGVyZSdzIHdoYXQgSSdtIGRvaW5nOg0KDQoxLiBJJ20gcmV3cml0aW5nIHRoZSBzZWN1 cml0eSBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucyBzZWN0aW9uLCBzaW5jZSB0aGUgdGV4dCB0aGF0IHNheXMgInRo 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ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 12:57:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdWWo-0003Wc-AO; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:57:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdWWm-0003SE-4W for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:57:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04380 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdWqd-0005sA-Dr for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:17:43 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:57:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:57:01 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A338@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Thread-Index: AcVmwhvJkvG16h6ERLSG1TibtEPiOQAA644wAAFAKCA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" , "McDonald, Ira" , "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 16:57:02.0693 (UTC) FILETIME=[EEDEC150:01C566CA] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1773548709==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1773548709== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2VlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LXJlZ2lz 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text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1773548709==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 13:44:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdXG8-0008LN-F9; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:44:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdXG7-0008L9-Th for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:44:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09244 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdXZy-0008TO-LO for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:04:35 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdXG5-0003HD-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:44:01 -0400 Message-ID: <004d01c566d1$e8b98ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A338@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation impose length constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:46:57 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" ... > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:57 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementationimposelength constraints? > > See: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.html#length ... The current proposed text is most helpful. However, as a technical contributor, I'd like to tighten up this paragraph: Longer tags are possible to envision. The longest practical tags (excluding extensions) could consist of a sequence of up to 58 characters, as shown below. Implementations which choose to implement a specific minimum buffer length SHOULD choose a buffer that exceeds this size (64 characters is suggested). Implementations that restrict storage should consider removing extensions before processing. Here is how the most perverse tag is derived: Suggestion: (a) tighter conformance language Longer tags are possible. The longest practical tags (excluding extensions) could have a length of up to 58 characters, as shown below. Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. (b) separate out text on removal of extensions and integrate it with the truncation algorithm. (Does this impact the matching draft?) (c) New paragraph on longest practical tag: Here is how the 58-character length of the longest practical tag (excluding extensions) is derived: Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 14:22:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdXrB-0002CY-JL; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:22:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdXr9-00025k-23 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:22:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12243 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdYB0-00020w-1w for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:42:51 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:22:06 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A3F7@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Thread-Index: AcVm0a49JiMf/aCYSS+r2aYyahd7TQAA3vXg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 18:22:06.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[D0BA6C40:01C566D6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Done. I think that we should consider adding some material on length = limitations and processing to the matching draft, although this doesn't = affect the matching draft per-se as it sits. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 10:47 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation > imposelength constraints? >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "Addison Phillips" > ... > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:57 AM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > implementationimposelength constraints? > > > > See: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry- > 03.html#length > ... >=20 > The current proposed text is most helpful. However, as a technical > contributor, I'd like to tighten up this paragraph: >=20 > Longer tags are possible to envision. The longest practical tags > (excluding > extensions) could consist of a sequence of up to 58 characters, as = shown > below. Implementations which choose to implement a specific minimum = buffer > length SHOULD choose a buffer that exceeds this size (64 characters is > suggested). Implementations that restrict storage should consider = removing > extensions before processing. Here is how the most perverse tag is = derived: >=20 > Suggestion: >=20 > (a) tighter conformance language >=20 > Longer tags are possible. The longest practical tags (excluding > extensions) > could have a length of up to 58 characters, as shown below. > Implementations > MUST be able to handle tags of this length without truncation. = Support > for > tags of up to 64 characters is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY = support > longer tags. >=20 > (b) separate out text on removal of extensions and integrate it with > the truncation algorithm. (Does this impact the matching draft?) >=20 > (c) New paragraph on longest practical tag: >=20 > Here is how the 58-character length of the longest practical tag > (excluding extensions) is derived: >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:00:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYSL-0004r8-0M; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:00:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYSJ-0004r3-NB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:00:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15667 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdYmA-0004Ci-Ga for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:21:16 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51J0Lr3015780; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:00:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , "McDonald, Ira" , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imp oselength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:00:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ded6070f7eed56e10c4f4d0d5043d9c7 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, I agree with Randy's proposed tightening of the length section. In the security section, I'm not sure what is meant by the last sentence: "Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks." Is that 'specification' the IANA Language Subtag Registry? If so, we should say that explicitly. If not, we should be clearer. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:57 PM > To: Addison Phillips; McDonald, Ira; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation > imposelength constraints? > > > See: > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.html#length > > And: > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.htm > l#security > > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 09:37 > > To: McDonald, Ira; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > implementation > > imposelength constraints? > > > > Okay, here's what I'm doing: > > > > 1. I'm rewriting the security considerations section, since > the text that > > says "the only consideration" is increasingly odd. > > > > 2. I'm inserting a version of Randy's text. The problem > with Randy's text > > is that it doesn't fully explain the problem (where the > length can come > > from). > > > > 3. WRT Ira's comments, RFC3066bis tags won't be that much > longer for the > > reasons stated in Section 2.1.1 (Length Considerations): > although there is > > no limit on the number of variants and so on, the > recommended prefixes and > > other guidance in the registry means that useful tags will > be limited, in > > general, to just four subtags plus private use. I am adding > some text to > > Section 2.1.1 explaining this in detail (the gist of it is that the > > smallest buffer limit that will not be exceeded by a > practical tag is 58 > > bytes and a buffer limit of 64 is therefore advised and that > > implementations that are limited in this manner should truncate > > extensions). > > > > Addison > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > > On > > > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > > > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 08:51 > > > To: 'Doug Ewell'; LTRU Working Group > > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > implementation > > > impose length constraints? > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I support Randy's suggested update to Security Considerations too. > > > > > > I still think it would be good to specify a lower bound of length > > > for language tags that SHOULD be supported by conforming > implementations. > > > Because in the RFC3066bis real-world language tags may > very well be much > > > longer than the classic 'll-CC'. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > - Ira > > > > > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > > > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > > > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > > > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > > > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > > > > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:50 PM > > > > To: LTRU Working Group > > > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > implementation > > > > impose length constraints? > > > > > > > > > > > > Randy Presuhn dot com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Won't work: Variants and private use subtags are not > bounded in > > > > >> number. Neither can extension lengths be known in advance. > > > > > > > > > > Then I think we really need to add something like the > > > > following to the > > > > > security considerations section, as part of this issue's > > > > resolution / > > > > > rejection: > > > > > > > > > > Since there is no limit to the number of variant and > private use > > > > > subtags, and consequently no limit on the possible > length of a tag, > > > > > implementations need to guard against buffer overflow > attacks. See > > > > > section ## for details on tag truncation, which can occur as a > > > > > consequence of defenses against buffer overflow. > > > > > > > > Yes. Excellent. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Doug Ewell > > > > Fullerton, California > > > > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Ltru mailing list > > > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ltru mailing list > > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:04:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYVz-0005r8-UJ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:04:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYVz-0005r3-FP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:04:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16183 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdYpo-0004OC-2j for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:25:03 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:04:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:04:15 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A439@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? 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Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+DQoNCg== --===============0144674507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0144674507==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:10:29 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYbk-0007fe-TP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:10:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYbj-0007ds-VS for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:10:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17009 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdYvc-0004hO-7y for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:31:00 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51JABP2016298; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:10:12 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , "McDonald, Ira" , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imp oselength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:10:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a1f9797ba297220533cb8c3f4bc709a8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, Then, I'd suggest changing: "specification of valid subtags for an extension" to: "specification of valid subtags for an extension (see section 2.2.6)" Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:04 PM > To: McDonald, Ira; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation > imposelength constraints? > > > No, this is extensions, which are separately defined. This > sentence was added as part of a previous comment about denial > of service attacks on registries in general. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] > > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 12:00 > > To: Addison Phillips; McDonald, Ira; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > implementation > > imposelength constraints? > > > > Hi, > > > > I agree with Randy's proposed tightening of the length section. > > > > In the security section, I'm not sure what is meant by the last > > sentence: > > > > "Although the specification of valid subtags for an > extension MUST be > > available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically > > depend > > on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service > attacks." > > > > Is that 'specification' the IANA Language Subtag Registry? > If so, we > > should > > say that explicitly. If not, we should be clearer. > > > > Cheers, > > - Ira > > > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:57 PM > > > To: Addison Phillips; McDonald, Ira; Doug Ewell; LTRU > Working Group > > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > implementation > > > imposelength constraints? > > > > > > > > > See: > > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.html#length > > > > > > And: > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.htm > > > l#security > > > > > > > > > Addison > > > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > > It is an architecture. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > > > > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > > > > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 09:37 > > > > To: McDonald, Ira; Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > > > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > > > implementation > > > > imposelength constraints? > > > > > > > > Okay, here's what I'm doing: > > > > > > > > 1. I'm rewriting the security considerations section, since > > > the text that > > > > says "the only consideration" is increasingly odd. > > > > > > > > 2. I'm inserting a version of Randy's text. The problem > > > with Randy's text > > > > is that it doesn't fully explain the problem (where the > > > length can come > > > > from). > > > > > > > > 3. WRT Ira's comments, RFC3066bis tags won't be that much > > > longer for the > > > > reasons stated in Section 2.1.1 (Length Considerations): > > > although there is > > > > no limit on the number of variants and so on, the > > > recommended prefixes and > > > > other guidance in the registry means that useful tags will > > > be limited, in > > > > general, to just four subtags plus private use. I am adding > > > some text to > > > > Section 2.1.1 explaining this in detail (the gist of it > is that the > > > > smallest buffer limit that will not be exceeded by a > > > practical tag is 58 > > > > bytes and a buffer limit of 64 is therefore advised and that > > > > implementations that are limited in this manner should truncate > > > > extensions). > > > > > > > > Addison > > > > > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > > > It is an architecture. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > > > > On > > > > > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > > > > > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 08:51 > > > > > To: 'Doug Ewell'; LTRU Working Group > > > > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > > > implementation > > > > > impose length constraints? > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > I support Randy's suggested update to Security > Considerations too. > > > > > > > > > > I still think it would be good to specify a lower > bound of length > > > > > for language tags that SHOULD be supported by conforming > > > implementations. > > > > > Because in the RFC3066bis real-world language tags may > > > very well be much > > > > > longer than the classic 'll-CC'. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > - Ira > > > > > > > > > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > > > > > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > > > > > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > > > > > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > > > > > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > > > > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > > > > > > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:50 PM > > > > > > To: LTRU Working Group > > > > > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant > > > implementation > > > > > > impose length constraints? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Randy Presuhn > > dot com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Won't work: Variants and private use subtags are not > > > bounded in > > > > > > >> number. Neither can extension lengths be known > in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then I think we really need to add something like the > > > > > > following to the > > > > > > > security considerations section, as part of this issue's > > > > > > resolution / > > > > > > > rejection: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since there is no limit to the number of variant and > > > private use > > > > > > > subtags, and consequently no limit on the possible > > > length of a tag, > > > > > > > implementations need to guard against buffer overflow > > > attacks. See > > > > > > > section ## for details on tag truncation, which > can occur as a > > > > > > > consequence of defenses against buffer overflow. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Excellent. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Doug Ewell > > > > > > Fullerton, California > > > > > > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Ltru mailing list > > > > > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Ltru mailing list > > > > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:31:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYw4-0003gA-1h; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:31:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdYw1-0003ZH-RI for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:31:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19279 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZFt-0005sz-Hq for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:51:58 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdYvy-0003EJ-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:31:23 -0400 Message-ID: <003601c566e0$e8627040$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:34:19 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #965] expectation of support for automated reading of registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "McDonald, Ira" ... > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:00 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? ... > In the security section, I'm not sure what is meant by the last > sentence: > > "Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension MUST be > available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend > on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks." > > Is that 'specification' the IANA Language Subtag Registry? If so, we should > say that explicitly. If not, we should be clearer. ... This really belongs in the thread for issue [psg.com #965] Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:36:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ0n-0006Ai-0U; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:36:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ0l-0006Ad-Ky for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:36:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19481 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZKV-000693-6b for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:56:46 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:35:57 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #965] expectation of support for automatedreading of registry Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:35:57 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A47C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #965] expectation of support for automatedreading of registry Thread-Index: AcVm4I0pL0TNfF3nR2uY/3fxWs0zVwAACcvw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 19:35:57.0884 (UTC) FILETIME=[22496FC0:01C566E1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Note: I just posted an editor's copy of matching-01 at: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt This includes a new section 2.6 "Length Considerations in Matching" = which is slightly rewritten from the same text in section 2.1.1 of = registry. Here is the text: --- Although there is no upper bound on the number of subtags in a language = tag and it is possible to envision quite long and complex subtag = sequences, in practice these are rare because of the various = considerations discussed in Section 2.1.1 of [1] (Phillips, A., Ed. and = M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for the Identification of Languages = (Internet-Draft)," February 2005.). A matching implementation MAY choose not to support the storage or = matching of language tags and ranges which exceed a specified length. = Any such limitation SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation = SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags or ranges (for = example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is = truncated). If truncation is permitted it must not permit a subtag to be = divided, since this changes the semantics of the tag or range being = matched and may result in false positives or negatives. Implementations = that restrict storage should consider removing extensions before = matching. A protocol that allows tags or ranges to be truncated at an = arbitrary limit, without giving any indication of what that limit is, = has the potential for causing harm by changing the meaning of values in = substantial ways. In practice, tags and ranges are limited to a sequence of four subtags, = and thus a maximum length of 26 characters (excluding any extensions or = private use sequences). This is because subtags are limited to a length = of eight characters and the extlang, script, and region subtags are = additionally limited to even fewer characters. In addition, the Language = Subtag Registry provides guidance on the use of subtags (via fields such = as Suppress-Script and Recommended-Prefix) which further limit useful = combination of subtags in a language tag or range. Longer tags are possible. The longest practical tags (excluding = extensions) could have a length of up to 58 characters, as shown below. = Implementations MUST be able to handle matching tags of this length. = Support for tags and ranges of up to 64 characters is RECOMMENDED. = Implementations MAY support longer tags, including matching extensive = sets of private use or extension subtags. Here is how the 58-character length of the longest practical tag = (excluding extensions) is derived: --- Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 12:34 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #965] expectation of support for > automatedreading of registry >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "McDonald, Ira" > ... > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:00 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant = implementation > imposelength constraints? > ... > > In the security section, I'm not sure what is meant by the last > > sentence: > > > > "Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension MUST = be > > available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically > depend > > on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service = attacks." > > > > Is that 'specification' the IANA Language Subtag Registry? If so, = we > should > > say that explicitly. If not, we should be clearer. > ... >=20 > This really belongs in the thread for issue [psg.com #965] >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:38:23 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ2l-0006V8-FX; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:38:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ2j-0006TW-Kr for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:38:21 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19760 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdYxy-00056c-Bd for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:33:26 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:33:26 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:33:26 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:32:08 +0200 Organization: Lines: 18 Message-ID: <429E0D38.7D69@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A30F@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation impose length constraints? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Okay, here's what I'm doing: I like the general direction, but "most perverse tag" is a bit strange for a technical document. Especially if that's not true, with *("-" extlang) the "most perverse tag" defined by the length has an arbitrary number of extlang-s before it even starts with script, region, variant(s), etc. Peter proposed lng-exa-exb-exc-exd-exe as the "most perverse extlang". John proposed Required-Prefix (= my Macro-Language) to register lng-exa-exb-exc-exd for exe. I still think that one level should be good enough in practice, but five is certainly better than no limit at all. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:41:22 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ5e-0007Ez-DL; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:41:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ5e-0007Eu-2p for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:41:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20320 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZPW-0006ZR-Ri for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:01:55 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdZ5c-0005yh-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:41:20 -0400 Message-ID: <006101c566e2$4d447020$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A47C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:44:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation impose length constraints X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - and THIS should have been posted on thread [psg.com #944] Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:35 PM Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #965] expectation of support for automatedreading of registry Note: I just posted an editor's copy of matching-01 at: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt This includes a new section 2.6 "Length Considerations in Matching" which is slightly rewritten from the same text in section 2.1.1 of registry. Here is the text: --- Although there is no upper bound on the number of subtags in a language tag and it is possible to envision quite long and complex subtag sequences, in practice these are rare because of the various considerations discussed in Section 2.1.1 of [1] (Phillips, A., Ed. and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for the Identification of Languages (Internet-Draft)," February 2005.). A matching implementation MAY choose not to support the storage or matching of language tags and ranges which exceed a specified length. Any such limitation SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags or ranges (for example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is truncated). If truncation is permitted it must not permit a subtag to be divided, since this changes the semantics of the tag or range being matched and may result in false positives or negatives. Implementations that restrict storage should consider removing extensions before matching. A protocol that allows tags or ranges to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving any indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm by changing the meaning of values in substantial ways. In practice, tags and ranges are limited to a sequence of four subtags, and thus a maximum length of 26 characters (excluding any extensions or private use sequences). This is because subtags are limited to a length of eight characters and the extlang, script, and region subtags are additionally limited to even fewer characters. In addition, the Language Subtag Registry provides guidance on the use of subtags (via fields such as Suppress-Script and Recommended-Prefix) which further limit useful combination of subtags in a language tag or range. Longer tags are possible. The longest practical tags (excluding extensions) could have a length of up to 58 characters, as shown below. Implementations MUST be able to handle matching tags of this length. Support for tags and ranges of up to 64 characters is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags, including matching extensive sets of private use or extension subtags. Here is how the 58-character length of the longest practical tag (excluding extensions) is derived: --- Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 12:34 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #965] expectation of support for > automatedreading of registry > > Hi - > > > From: "McDonald, Ira" > ... > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:00 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation > imposelength constraints? > ... > > In the security section, I'm not sure what is meant by the last > > sentence: > > > > "Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension MUST be > > available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically > depend > > on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks." > > > > Is that 'specification' the IANA Language Subtag Registry? If so, we > should > > say that explicitly. If not, we should be clearer. > ... > > This really belongs in the thread for issue [psg.com #965] > > Randy, ltru co-chair > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:45:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ9I-0000X7-NO; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:45:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZ9H-0000WZ-I7 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:45:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20867 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZTA-0006nF-HS for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:05:40 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdZ9G-0006y9-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:45:06 -0400 Message-ID: <007a01c566e2$d468b0c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:48:05 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1017] Add Required-Prefix field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01916.html > it was suggested that a "Required-Prefix" field be added. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:46:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZAi-00019n-1J; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZAg-00019b-Hs for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21144 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZUY-0006qi-90 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:07:07 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdZAc-0007Kk-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:30 -0400 Message-ID: <008301c566e3$067ea6a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:48:54 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01919.html > the addition of a MAcro-Language field was suggested. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:46:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZAn-0001Bb-6i; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZAl-0001AB-J2 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21156 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZUd-0006r2-7y for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:07:12 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdZAj-0007Lp-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:37 -0400 Message-ID: <008401c566e3$09580560$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:49:34 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1019] move redundant tags from draft registry to an appendix X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This issue was described in detail in message > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01457.html > Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 15:47:23 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZBT-0001PY-07; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:47:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZBR-0001P4-EL for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:47:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21263 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZVJ-0006yF-Uw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:07:54 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdZBP-0007bp-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:47:20 -0400 Message-ID: <008901c566e3$23f698a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:50:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1020] stable forever != canonical forever X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01449.html > it was suggested that we "redefine canonical / deprecated to follow > the underlying ISO and UN standards > (stable forever != canonical forever)" > Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:05:15 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZSl-0006Ug-EN; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:05:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZSk-0006UQ-Pn for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:05:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25067 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZma-0008UJ-6Y for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:25:47 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:04:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:04:32 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4BE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Thread-Index: AcVm4a0GBizZeJNdQQOnNbLYWrgj6AAACVIQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 20:04:56.0951 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EDA0070:01C566E5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Agreed, but for RFC 3066bis, in which no extlangs are defined, the idea = of finding two is most perverse :-). I tend to think that two extlangs is going to be an edge case and three = borders on outright pedantry (a language enclosed by a language enclosed = by a language enclosed by a language, but it isn't a variant; for = example a dialect of a dialect of, say, Mandarin Chinese). Once one is = talking about that language, the idea that script, region, and *two* = variants are also required is, shall we say, extreme. The recommended buffer limit of 64 is long enough to take three extlangs = (62 characters up from my example of 58).=20 Yes, a longer tag is possible per the ABNF, but practically speaking no = such tags will exist (and users who choose them probably OUGHT to have = them truncated). If we're going to write in a limit (as it looks like we will), perhaps = one that fits the length considerations section makes more sense. I = don't like the idea of making the limit 65 characters (four extlangs). = Question is: can we live with "just" three? I think we can. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 12:32 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation > imposelength constraints? >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > Okay, here's what I'm doing: >=20 > I like the general direction, but "most perverse tag" is a bit > strange for a technical document. Especially if that's not > true, with *("-" extlang) the "most perverse tag" defined by > the length has an arbitrary number of extlang-s before it even > starts with script, region, variant(s), etc. >=20 > Peter proposed lng-exa-exb-exc-exd-exe as the "most perverse > extlang". John proposed Required-Prefix (=3D my Macro-Language) > to register lng-exa-exb-exc-exd for exe. >=20 > I still think that one level should be good enough in practice, > but five is certainly better than no limit at all. Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:06:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZTd-0006xF-Gh; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:06:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZTc-0006ww-5T for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:06:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25392 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZnU-0000Gr-Ph for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:26:41 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:05:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1019] move redundant tags from draft registry toan appendix Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:05:55 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4C4@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1019] move redundant tags from draft registry toan appendix Thread-Index: AcVm4sLwN2gE4KLUTR2OP1BNeAiweQAAnQ5A From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 20:05:56.0342 (UTC) FILETIME=[52405960:01C566E5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I say 'reject'. Having all the entries in the language subtag registry obviates the need = to look somewhere else to figure out what happened to the redundant = ones. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 12:50 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1019] move redundant tags from draft = registry > toan appendix >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > This issue was described in detail in message > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01457.html > > >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:09:23 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZWl-0000Am-38; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:09:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZWj-0008VW-GW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:09:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26407 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZqX-0000hX-9W for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:29:50 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:08:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:08:57 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4C9@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVm4tuUyQrQ/lHRRaW33E0PBhzRUAAAs+Xw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 20:08:58.0184 (UTC) FILETIME=[BEA33C80:01C566E5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org How is this different from #1017? Shouldn't this be the same discussion? Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 12:49 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > In message > > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01919.html > > the addition of a MAcro-Language field was suggested. >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:16:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZbp-00031b-3P; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:14:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZbn-0002xB-Qh for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:14:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28432 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdZvg-0001bw-MH for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:35:09 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdZbl-00066u-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:14:33 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c566e6$f0068ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4C9@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:17:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:08 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > > How is this different from #1017? Shouldn't this be the same discussion? ... The two proposals (required-prefix and macro-language) arose from the same discussion. I leave it to their advocates to say whether they should be linked. To me they seemed to be presented as distinct concepts, although motivated by a common underlying philosophy. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:38:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZzL-0006NZ-MG; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:38:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdZzF-0006NS-BE for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:38:53 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07333 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdZtn-00052Q-D8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:33:11 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:33:11 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:33:11 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:33:00 +0200 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: <429E1B7C.3200@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A47C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: expectation of support for automated reading of registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > various considerations discussed in Section 2.1.1 of [1] > (Phillips, A., Ed. and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for the > Identification of Languages (Internet-Draft)," February > 2005.). Somewhere I saw Bruce Lilly quoting an older article on the rfc-interest mailing list, where "they" (RfC editor) wanted as an xml2rfc-default, because "they" have sometimes a problem with fixing numbered references... ...hearsay, I can't tell you more, but please replace or remove "February", draft -02 was published in May. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:41:52 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dda2C-0008A6-9E; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:41:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dda2A-00086I-AS for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:41:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07626 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdaM2-0005So-EP for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:02:23 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:41:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: expectation of support for automated reading of registry Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:41:37 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A518@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: expectation of support for automated reading of registry Thread-Index: AcVm6gbupuQn3lC0Roi6GP6l4OkCJgAABqlA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 20:41:38.0593 (UTC) FILETIME=[4F21E910:01C566EA] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I copied this text from the HTML version. The paste put that text in = place of the link. I noticed the now-stale reference and have fixed it = already. Thanks, Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 13:33 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: expectation of support for automated reading of > registry >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > various considerations discussed in Section 2.1.1 of [1] > > (Phillips, A., Ed. and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for the > > Identification of Languages (Internet-Draft)," February > > 2005.). >=20 > Somewhere I saw Bruce Lilly quoting an older article on the > rfc-interest mailing list, where "they" (RfC editor) wanted > as an xml2rfc-default, because "they" > have sometimes a problem with fixing numbered references... >=20 > ...hearsay, I can't tell you more, but please replace or > remove "February", draft -02 was published in May. Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 16:50:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdaAl-00045s-MX; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:50:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdaAg-00044b-Vk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:50:39 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08048 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dda6l-0006lG-1I for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:46:35 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:46:35 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:46:35 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:45:03 +0200 Organization: Lines: 17 Message-ID: <429E1E4F.1544@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A47C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <006101c566e2$4d447020$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Meta (was: MAY a conformant implementation impose length constraints) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > THIS should have been posted on thread [psg.com #944] | Policy-Mandated Labels Such as "Adv:" in Email Subject Headers | Considered Ineffective At Best It's not completely funny, my UA does strange things with folded subject header fields when I use "quoted printable" as default (if necessary). If some spaces are lost in these long subjects it's a side-effect. Is anything _wrong_ with the concept of References in mail and news ? The USEFOR WG just started its 1001st debate on this issue, fresh ideas always welcome. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:00:05 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdaJp-0001Yo-Nw; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:00:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdaJi-0001Vz-V6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:00:03 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08445 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdaFn-00084B-Mt for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:55:56 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:55:55 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:55:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:55:56 +0200 Organization: Lines: 11 Message-ID: <429E20DC.380F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <008301c566e3$067ea6a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >> the addition of a MAcro-Language field was suggested. Covered by #1017 Required-Prefix, I'm not hot about its name. Originally it was your proposal to prepare everything as far as possible for 3066ter, #1017 is a consequence of this plan. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:14:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdaXy-0001JF-ST; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:14:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdaXw-0001JA-UC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:14:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09295 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddaro-000763-8u for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:35:14 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j51LEQNC001295; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:14:33 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:14:32 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Message-ID: <20050601211432.GA7779@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4C9@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <001801c566e6$f0068ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001801c566e6$f0068ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > The two proposals (required-prefix and macro-language) arose from the same > discussion. I leave it to their advocates to say whether they should be linked. > To me they seemed to be presented as distinct concepts, although motivated > by a common underlying philosophy. I understood that they were exactly the same except for the actual fieldname. I am quite happy to switch from Required-Prefix to Macrolanguage. -- After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: John Cowan WELCOME TO jcowan@reutershealth.com DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:23:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdagW-0005dq-UF; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:23:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdagU-0005dg-WE for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:23:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10129 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddb0N-0007eq-PU for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:44:05 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdagJ-00012m-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:23:19 -0400 Message-ID: <094c01c566f0$8aa85900$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A47C@irvmbxw01.quest.com><006101c566e2$4d447020$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <429E1E4F.1544@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Meta Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:26:13 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:45 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Meta (was: MAY a conformant implementation impose lengthconstraints) > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > THIS should have been posted on thread [psg.com #944] > > | Policy-Mandated Labels Such as "Adv:" in Email Subject Headers > | Considered Ineffective At Best That document considers a completely different question, and in section 4 explicitly declares our kind of label usage out of scope. > It's not completely funny, my > UA does strange things with folded subject header fields when > I use "quoted printable" as default (if necessary). If some > spaces are lost in these long subjects it's a side-effect. When I respond to a message with such a mangled subject, I just try to put the spaces back. Subject lines are for humans, after all, which is why *I* need the issue number. If this were not such a spectacularly verbose working group, they probably would not be needed. > Is anything _wrong_ with the concept of References in mail and > news ? The USEFOR WG just started its 1001st debate on this > issue, fresh ideas always welcome. ... Well, just as your UA mangles subject lines, here's what I have to do to handle a "References" with mine: (1) right-click on message (2) pull down and select "Properties" (3) click on "Details" (4) click on "Message Source" (5) look for the "References:" header (there is no "search") (6) select & control-c (to copy) the message id (7) close the window (8) right-click on my folder of filed ltru messages (9) pull down and select "Find" (10) control-v (to paste) the message id to look for into the "Message" field (11) sit back and wait (and wait) to see whether a message actually has that id frequently there will be no matching message id, even though the intended content is indeed there. I don't even want to think about doing this on a regular basis. The concept might be good, but the implementation is nearly worthless. I guess the obvious solution is for both of us to get new UAs. :-) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:26:15 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddaj8-0006s0-Gw; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:26:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddaj7-0006qk-3h for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:26:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10542 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddb2z-0007tL-Vs for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:46:47 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Ddaj4-0001wa-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:26:11 -0400 Message-ID: <095d01c566f0$f3313640$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4C9@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <001801c566e6$f0068ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <20050601211432.GA7779@skunk.reutershealth.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:29:09 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field ... > I understood that they were exactly the same except for the actual fieldname. > I am quite happy to switch from Required-Prefix to Macrolanguage. ... I understood "Required-Prefix" as being more general than "Macro-Language", but I could have completely missed the point. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:33:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddapt-0003ea-9W; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:33:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddapr-0003eS-KJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:33:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10988 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ccil.org ([192.190.237.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddb9k-0008Cy-8Q for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:53:45 -0400 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ddapf-0002U7-Hz; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:32:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:32:59 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Message-ID: <20050601213259.GA9395@ccil.org> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4C9@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <001801c566e6$f0068ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <20050601211432.GA7779@skunk.reutershealth.com> <095d01c566f0$f3313640$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <095d01c566f0$f3313640$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > I understood "Required-Prefix" as being more general than > "Macro-Language", but I could have completely missed the point. No, I introduced it in order to talk about extlang subtags and macrolanguages. Note that it's "macrolanguage" in ISO 639-3, not "macro-language". In any case, this issue can be and should be deferred until we are doing RFC 3066ter. -- John Cowan www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org 'Tis the Linux rebellion / Let coders take their place, The Linux-nationale / Shall Microsoft outpace, We can write better programs / Our CPUs won't stall, So raise the penguin banner of / The Linux-nationale. --Greg Baker _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:46:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddb2p-0002OK-MN; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:46:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddb2o-0002Lv-4a for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:46:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11780 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdbMg-0000Nb-Qj for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:07:08 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-78.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.78] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Ddb2l-00012m-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:46:31 -0400 Message-ID: <09ac01c566f3$c752b6e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <008301c566e3$067ea6a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <429E20DC.380F@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:49:24 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:55 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field ... > Originally it was your proposal to prepare everything as far > as possible for 3066ter, #1017 is a consequence of this plan. ... You're reading a bit much into what I said. The context was issue [psg.com #1007], summarized as "Although ISO 639-6 will not be ready in time for this work to reference it formally, there were statements that it would be desirable to structure the ABNF so that the impact on implementations would be minimized, if ISO 639-6 develops as is currently anticipated." Adding additional fields goes a lot further than future-proofing the tag ABNF, in my opinion. I think we should not add fields unless the WG is confident that (1) they will be necessary and (2) we can add them without delaying our work. If there we come to a quick consensus that "Required-Prefix" will the right tool for the job, cool. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 17:59:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdbFQ-0006d4-4t; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:59:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdbFP-0006cz-Kv for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:59:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12611 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdbZI-00017Q-DX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:20:09 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LxIdi023605 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:59:18 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:59:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, 'Required-Prefix' is better future-proofing. But if we're _sure_ that it only affects the macrolanguage issue, then we could use 'Macrolanguage' (except it's confusing if there do turn out to be more levels of nesting - yuck!). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:29 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > > > Hi - > > > From: "John Cowan" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > Cc: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > ... > > I understood that they were exactly the same except for the > actual fieldname. > > I am quite happy to switch from Required-Prefix to Macrolanguage. > ... > > I understood "Required-Prefix" as being more general than > "Macro-Language", but I could have completely missed the point. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 18:44:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddbwy-0001I6-RI; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:44:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddbwx-0001Fy-BS for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:44:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17094 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdcGr-0003HK-IO for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:05:09 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:25 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:24 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A61A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVm9bi4/f8iv0qPQueInVLGx88FiAAAm5Eg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 22:44:25.0312 (UTC) FILETIME=[760A0600:01C566FB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 'Required-Prefix', as a name, is more extensible than 'Macrolanguage' = is. It has a clear semantic relationship to 'Recommended-Prefix' = (playing MUST to recommended's SHOULD). NB> Here is the description of Recommended-Prefix in draft-02: -- Recommended-Prefix * Recommended-Prefix's field-value contains a language tag with = which this subtag may be used to form a new language tag, perhaps with = other subtags as well. This field MUST only appear in records whose = 'Type' field-value is 'variant' or 'extlang'. For example, the = 'Recommended-Prefix' for the variant 'scouse' is 'en', meaning that the = tags "en-scouse" and "en-GB-scouse" might be appropriate while the tag = "is-scouse" is not. -- There is the question of whether this kind of semantic wordplay makes = sense at all. The reasoning behind having the weaker Recommended-Prefix = to begin with was that any subtag could be used to form a tag = generatively, but only some possible generative tags have a sensible = meaning. There is a certain parsimony is having just one type of prefix field and = making it both general and normative. Validating processors are required = to pay attention to it. Well-formed processors are not required to pay = attention to it. Users certainly should pay attention to it when = selecting language tags. Or, to say it simply, can't we solve this by replacing the field name = Recommended-Prefix with Required-Prefix? 3066ter can document that = extlangs use this to indicate their enclosing macrolanguage (3066bis can = document this as an intention). Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 14:59 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field >=20 > Hi, >=20 > 'Required-Prefix' is better future-proofing. But if we're > _sure_ that it only affects the macrolanguage issue, then > we could use 'Macrolanguage' (except it's confusing if there > do turn out to be more levels of nesting - yuck!). >=20 > Cheers, > - Ira >=20 > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 5:29 PM > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > From: "John Cowan" > > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:14 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > > ... > > > I understood that they were exactly the same except for the > > actual fieldname. > > > I am quite happy to switch from Required-Prefix to Macrolanguage. > > ... > > > > I understood "Required-Prefix" as being more general than > > "Macro-Language", but I could have completely missed the point. > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 19:34:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddcit-0003L8-3f; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:34:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddcir-0003GR-8d for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:34:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20345 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddd2l-0005jr-66 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:54:40 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:33:54 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:33:54 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVm9bi4/f8iv0qPQueInVLGx88FiAAAm5EgAAJfdxA= From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 23:33:54.0482 (UTC) FILETIME=[5FCD6920:01C56702] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org What will be true for macrolanguages that would not be true of any other potential 'require-prefix' case is that the macrolanguage relationship would be defined normatively in ISO 639-3. That is, ISO 639-3 will specify that a macrolanguage ID such as zap encompasses IDs zaq, zpo... which will be the basis for determining that zap is a required prefix for zaq, etc. Hence, I'm somewhat inclined to make a field in the registry specific to this. But I'm not sure why we need to resolve this now. I'd rather focus on resolving any remaining issues that block completion of 3066*bis*. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 20:23:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DddUX-0001us-Ib; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:23:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DddUW-0001un-5W for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:23:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA23431 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.142]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DddoQ-0008Ld-G1 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:43:55 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j520N90O019809 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:23:09 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j520N9LI235798 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:23:09 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520N9Pn026196 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:23:09 -0400 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.cupertino.ibm.com [9.52.67.135]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j520N7Ur026133; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: <12ba01c56709$3fa82d40$3d693009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" , References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:23:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e2.ny.us.ibm.com id j520N90O019809 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I agree; we need to focus on 3066bis, since it is already May 32nd. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Peter Constable" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 16:33 Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field What will be true for macrolanguages that would not be true of any other potential 'require-prefix' case is that the macrolanguage relationship would be defined normatively in ISO 639-3. That is, ISO 639-3 will specify that a macrolanguage ID such as zap encompasses IDs zaq, zpo... which will be the basis for determining that zap is a required prefix for zaq, etc. Hence, I'm somewhat inclined to make a field in the registry specific to this. But I'm not sure why we need to resolve this now. I'd rather focus on resolving any remaining issues that block completion of 3066*bis*. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 20:26:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DddXE-0002Md-3E; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:26:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DddXD-0002MY-Rf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:26:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA23529 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dddr8-0008OH-3n for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:46:43 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:25:54 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:25:54 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A67F@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVm9bi4/f8iv0qPQueInVLGx88FiAAAm5EgAAJfdxAAAXo/YA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 00:25:54.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3978530:01C56709] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org To the extent it makes sense to define the fields that will occur in the = registry and define the structure and semantics of language tags now, we = should do take care of defining the fields associated with extlangs. But = I agree that we should stop making policy now for things that will be = better defined later. For me the substantive issue that must be dealt with is whether a limit = of three, as opposed to five, extlangs can be sufficient (and avoid = having a weird "minimum" required buffer size) [yes, Randy, issue #965]. = Is there any reasonable likelihood that a five-fold macrolanguage = "enclosing" would ever exist (requiring four extlangs and a primary = language)? The other point is: if we agree to change the term 'recommended-prefix' = to 'required-prefix', this adds a small new requirement to validating = processors (i.e. those that have a copy of the registry), while giving = us a general purpose mechanism for handling prefixes?that will be = understood "out of the box" when extlangs are assigned. I would submit = that the effect of this is small now, since there are exactly two = validating processors today that I'm aware of: Doug's and mine. And the = benefit of it later is potentially large (since by then we hope there = are many such processors). Another way to say that is: extlangs have normative = 'recommended-prefixes' assigned by ISO 639-3. Variant = 'recommended-prefixes' are not externally maintained and thus must be = assigned by ietf-languages and the registration process. Primary = languages, regions and scripts cannot require a prefix by their very = nature. Using the same mechanism allows a certain generalization in code = that will make it easier to write a validating processor. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 16:34 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field >=20 > What will be true for macrolanguages that would not be true of any = other > potential 'require-prefix' case is that the macrolanguage relationship > would be defined normatively in ISO 639-3. That is, ISO 639-3 will > specify that a macrolanguage ID such as zap encompasses IDs zaq, = zpo... > which will be the basis for determining that zap is a required prefix > for zaq, etc. Hence, I'm somewhat inclined to make a field in the > registry specific to this. >=20 > But I'm not sure why we need to resolve this now. I'd rather focus on > resolving any remaining issues that block completion of 3066*bis*. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Peter Constable >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 21:43:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddejo-0001ir-Na; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:43:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddejo-0001im-3E for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:43:12 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27363 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddeg7-0002Sz-JJ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:39:23 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:39:23 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:39:23 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:40:15 +0200 Organization: Lines: 11 Message-ID: <429E637F.7E74@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A67F@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > if we agree to change the term 'recommended-prefix' to > 'required-prefix', this adds a small new requirement to > validating processors (i.e. those that have a copy of the > registry), while giving us a general purpose mechanism for > handling prefixes?that will be understood "out of the box" > when extlangs are assigned. If that's at all possible I'd like it very much. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 22:15:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfEi-0000nE-H3; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:15:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfEg-0000kr-Qv for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:15:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA04567 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ccil.org ([192.190.237.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdfYZ-0005C2-O5 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:35:42 -0400 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1DdfEV-0004d0-0b; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:14:55 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:14:54 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Message-ID: <20050602021454.GA17574@ccil.org> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A61A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A61A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > Or, to say it simply, can't we solve this by replacing the field name > Recommended-Prefix with Required-Prefix? 3066ter can document that > extlangs use this to indicate their enclosing macrolanguage (3066bis > can document this as an intention). I'm afraid not. A variant subtag may be sensible with different prefixes. An extlang subtag isn't: it goes with exactly one language subtag, period. -- Where the wombat has walked, John Cowan it will inevitably walk again. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 22:19:03 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfIV-00044T-7O; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:19:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfIT-00044O-7L for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:19:01 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07302 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdfEc-0006hQ-Od for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:15:02 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:15:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:15:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:15:35 +0200 Organization: Lines: 44 Message-ID: <429E6BC7.7A9A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A47C@irvmbxw01.quest.com><006101c566e2$4d447020$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <429E1E4F.1544@xyzzy.claranet.de> <094c01c566f0$8aa85900$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Meta X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: [4096] > That document considers a completely different question Sure, and my "last call" comment "stay away from RfC 3834 and its [Auto] tag" is not exactly represented in the text, but it's fun to read it (outside of its RfC 3865 / 4095 context). > When I respond to a message with such a mangled subject, I > just try to put the spaces back. Me too, actually I think my UA wouldn't introduce new errors, it's only too stupid to display the folded subjects correctly. > Subject lines are for humans, RT ticket numbers aren't for humans, they are for RT. In its "overview" mode with a window size that is no accident my UA displays exactly the portion "Re: [psg.com #1018..." Not that "Re: Meta" is much better, and in the case of #1018 I now know what it means. > If this were not such a spectacularly verbose working group Compared with lists like USEFOR or SPF or the former MARID it is still relatively quiet. It might even produce an RfC, and that would be the first from my POV. Maybe SPF can beat LTRU. > the implementation is nearly worthless. Unlike Outlook OE at least sort of supports 2049. With my old UA I just click on a link to get an article in the References. For mail if it exists in the same mail folder, but I read LTRU as newsgroup, and the server normally has all articles. > I guess the obvious solution is for both of us to get new > UAs. :-) You for threading, and I for Unicode, yes. For de and en the latter isn't too important. Sometimes "stupid UA" also means "too stupid to get it seriously wrong". Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 22:24:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfNM-0006B8-FO; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:24:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfNK-0006B3-M2 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:24:02 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10740 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdfJr-00079f-Mj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:20:27 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:20:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:20:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:20:37 +0200 Organization: Lines: 9 Message-ID: <429E6CF5.2C99@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A4BE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > The recommended buffer limit of 64 is long enough to take > three extlangs (62 characters up from my example of 58). If Peter can live with that it's certainly better than five. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 23:02:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdfyB-0000J5-QL; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:02:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddfy9-0000Ex-Hs for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:02:05 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04342 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddfuq-0001ZD-Kb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:58:40 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:58:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:58:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:57:53 +0200 Organization: Lines: 60 Message-ID: <429E75B1.262C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <429C528A.690E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20050531131725.GL6568@skunk.reutershealth.com> <429C7C11.D78@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20050531171240.GA13188@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang again X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Under what circumstances is nds referred to simply as > "Deutsch", unqualified? The German words for nds are "plattdeutsch", "platt", or very artificially "niederdeutsch" (nieder ~ lower). In contrast "hochdeutsch" (hoch ~ upper) excludes nds and dialects. There is no doubt that nds is a language of its own, in at least one German state they have a "platt" version of their constitution together with de and dk versions. But no fy as far as I know. > Alemannisch, Bayerisch AFAIK considered as dialects. > North and East Frisian and Saterfrisian AFAIK North =3D=3D East. > K=F6lsch Considered as dialect (that doesn't imply that everybody could understand it, spoken or written, it's only not considered as language, i.e. you won't learn it in school etc.) > Jenisch That might be dead, but I'm not sure. > Limburgisch In Germany ? That would surprise me, we have something called "Oelscher Platt" ("Aachener Platt"), and "Moselfraenkisch", the latter is probably the same or similar to... > Letzeburgesch > Mainfr=E4nkisch, Pf=E4lzisch Again dialects. > Plautdietsch Some "platt deutsch" version exported centuries ago to the US. > Upper Saxon, Schw=E4bisch, Westf=E4lisch More dialects. > Danish, Polish, Upper and Lower Sorbian Polish as a "language used in Germany" is an obscure idea based on German borders of 1914 and/or Polish immigration in the 19th century. Today tr is very important. > three kinds of Romani Are you sure about three, or is the third Jenisch ? Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 23:09:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddg5c-0003ZR-IT; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:09:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddg5a-0003ZK-Cb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:09:46 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04667 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddg2K-00025e-Ge for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:06:25 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:06:24 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:06:24 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:07:36 +0200 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <429E77F8.1BA0@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: extlang again X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > Let's imagine that on average each is written with three > different scripts, spoken in five countries, and that five > variant subtags are eventually registered -- an *extreme* > unlikelihood; that's around 53000 possible tags involving > these extlangs. Yes, when I said "billions" I wasn't talking about the number of possible combinations, but the real ar-shu (etc.) tags in "billions" of tagged documents (Web pages, mails, whatever). Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 01 23:16:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdgC2-0007QZ-MY; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:16:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdgC0-0007O5-Ne for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:16:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04891 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdgVu-0007zy-Ho for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:37:01 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:16:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:16:11 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A75C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVnGN59oYr8gcMKRySNd325IZZMXAACGHHQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 03:16:11.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D48B3B0:01C56721] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Which is why Required/Recommended-Prefix may be repeated for variants.=20 Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: mercredi 1 juin 2005 19:15 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field >=20 > Addison Phillips scripsit: >=20 > > Or, to say it simply, can't we solve this by replacing the field = name > > Recommended-Prefix with Required-Prefix? 3066ter can document that > > extlangs use this to indicate their enclosing macrolanguage (3066bis > > can document this as an intention). >=20 > I'm afraid not. A variant subtag may be sensible with different = prefixes. > An extlang subtag isn't: it goes with exactly one language subtag, = period. >=20 > -- > Where the wombat has walked, John Cowan > it will inevitably walk again. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 00:33:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdhP3-0004aS-Ch; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:33:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdhP1-0004Z7-Qw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:33:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA09707 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddhix-0003J3-KN for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:54:33 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:33:43 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:33:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:33:47 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #944] MAY a conformant implementation imposelength constraints? Thread-Index: AcVnGplWHY+t7gZ3SPegLmFXItsYYQAD6SdA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 04:33:44.0698 (UTC) FILETIME=[42CE85A0:01C5672C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > > The recommended buffer limit of 64 is long enough to take > > three extlangs (62 characters up from my example of 58). >=20 > If Peter can live with that it's certainly better than five. I'd expect we could get by with a limit of three.=20 Perhaps that would give impetus to the maintainers of 639-3 to use care in reanalyzing existing macrolanguage-individual language cases. There *will* likely be cases in which an individual language in 639-3 is reanalyzed as being a macrolanguage encompassing two or more individual languages, but hopefully they will take care to do that only after there has been a good sociolinguistic assessment, decreasing the likelihood of a further splitting of the same group later on. Not that I expect they'd be cavalier about how they maintain things, but it doesn't hurt to provide motivation Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 02:53:22 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdjZy-0003n7-7s; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 02:53:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdjZw-0003mr-Kd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 02:53:20 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA09921 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050602065248.LPXQ13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:52:48 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c5673f$aa23ca40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050601224638.ITGU13001.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:52:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > There is a certain parsimony is having just one type of prefix field > and making it both general and normative. Validating processors are > required to pay attention to it. Well-formed processors are not > required to pay attention to it. Users certainly should pay attention > to it when selecting language tags. > > Or, to say it simply, can't we solve this by replacing the field name > Recommended-Prefix with Required-Prefix? 3066ter can document that > extlangs use this to indicate their enclosing macrolanguage (3066bis > can document this as an intention). I would simply love it if we could declare that "is-scouse" is not only inappropriate, but invalid. I've never been delighted with the idea that such a tag can be called "probably a poor choice" and yet still be considered no less valid than "in-TP". Section 3.4 says that allowing non-recommended prefixes "makes validation simpler," but IMHO this is overstated. Validators already have to look in the registry just to see if each subtag is defined there. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 03:07:38 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddjnm-0003Jg-EX; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:07:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddjnk-0003JY-Lo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:07:36 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA11670 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:07:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050602070703.LJJR8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:07:03 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c56741$aa2ae440$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050602031633.GWTL28887.mta4.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:06:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > For me the substantive issue that must be dealt with is whether a > limit of three, as opposed to five, extlangs can be sufficient (and > avoid having a weird "minimum" required buffer size) [yes, Randy, > issue #965]. Is there any reasonable likelihood that a five-fold > macrolanguage "enclosing" would ever exist (requiring four extlangs > and a primary language)? I would be fine with reducing 5 to 3. Frank seems to want to reduce it to 1, and I am not fine with that; the scenario for 2 has been demonstrated adequately, and allowing 3 as a safety net is just a simple as 2. > The other point is: if we agree to change the term 'recommended- > prefix' to 'required-prefix', this adds a small new requirement to > validating processors (i.e. those that have a copy of the registry), > while giving us a general purpose mechanism for handling prefixes?that > will be understood "out of the box" when extlangs are assigned. I > would submit that the effect of this is small now, since there are > exactly two validating processors today that I'm aware of: Doug's and > mine. And the benefit of it later is potentially large (since by then > we hope there are many such processors). I would have no problem whatsoever with changing my validating processor to (1) turn Recommended-Prefix into Required-Prefix, with the semantic changes implied thereby, and (2) allow a maximum of 3 (or 5 or whatever) extended-language subtags. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 07:52:15 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdoFC-0005lA-Tu; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:52:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdoFA-0005l5-KK for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:52:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA05751 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ccil.org ([192.190.237.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdoZA-0008WD-Uq for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:12:54 -0400 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1DdoF0-0008Mk-9h; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:52:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:52:02 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Message-ID: <20050602115202.GB31453@ccil.org> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A75C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A75C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > Which is why Required/Recommended-Prefix may be repeated for variants. If there are alternatives, it's semantically bizarre to label each of them as "required". -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org www.reutershealth.com [P]olice in many lands are now complaining that local arrestees are insisting on having their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American TV cop shows. When it's explained to them that they are in a different country, where those rights do not exist, they become outraged. --Neal Stephenson _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 08:26:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddolt-00064v-4S; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:26:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddolq-00064q-Qg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:25:59 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08938 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdogW-0003G1-Nn for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:20:28 +0200 Received: from c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.76]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:20:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:20:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:46 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <429EF872.954@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B98A75C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <20050602115202.GB31453@ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > Addison Phillips scripsit: >> Which is why Required/Recommended-Prefix may be repeated for >> variants. > If there are alternatives, it's semantically bizarre to label > each of them as "required". Just saying "Prefix" could do the trick. 10 characters saved per prefix in the registry. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 10:43:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddqut-00015l-Vc; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:43:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddqus-00012O-6Q for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:43:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21816 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdrEt-00019l-PS for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:04:09 -0400 Received: from smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com (smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com [195.93.24.100]) by rly-ip04.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id RELAYIN9-a429f1ac81b8; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:42:16 -0400 Received: from DEBHOME (ACD8E76E.ipt.aol.com [172.216.231.110]) by smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j52EgseL013491; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:42:55 -0400 Message-Id: <200506021442.j52EgseL013491@smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com> From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'John Cowan'" , "'Randy Presuhn'" Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:43:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcVm7xCA7C+1knoPSHqMUzptlQWSWQAkfIAg In-Reply-To: <20050601211432.GA7779@skunk.reutershealth.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-AOL-IP: 195.93.24.100 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Just a little info... The term "Macro-language" MAY be up for discussion in the ISO meeting in August. Best regards Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > Sent: 01 June 2005 22:15 > To: Randy Presuhn > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > The two proposals (required-prefix and macro-language) arose from the > same > > discussion. I leave it to their advocates to say whether they should be > linked. > > To me they seemed to be presented as distinct concepts, although > motivated > > by a common underlying philosophy. > > I understood that they were exactly the same except for the actual > fieldname. > I am quite happy to switch from Required-Prefix to Macrolanguage. > > -- > After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: John Cowan > WELCOME TO jcowan@reutershealth.com > DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 11:19:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdrTz-0000tU-PB; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:19:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdrTx-0000rp-NH for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:19:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24898 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddrnx-00034R-TX for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:40:23 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:19:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:19:12 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AE69@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVnblJXWDxLe+INT0i3PoYWOQ0z4AAFZl+Q From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 15:19:13.0803 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F26F5B0:01C56786] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org The name of the field is not important, ultimately. What the field means = to a processor is what is important. A variant that has multiple prefixes should be rare, but we didn't = prohibit it. I don't see how it is "semantically bizarre" to require the = user to pick a valid prefix from a list. >From a user interface perspective, when presenting the list box = containing variants, you match each "Prefix" (as a range) using Basic = Range Matching against the subtags already selected. If it is a match, = then you display (or enable) the variant. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: jeudi 2 juin 2005 05:16 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field >=20 > John Cowan wrote: >=20 > > Addison Phillips scripsit: > >> Which is why Required/Recommended-Prefix may be repeated for > >> variants. >=20 > > If there are alternatives, it's semantically bizarre to label > > each of them as "required". >=20 > Just saying "Prefix" could do the trick. 10 characters saved > per prefix in the registry. > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 13:33:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdtZZ-0005mH-3x; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:33:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdtZX-0005gu-1A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:33:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10061 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DdttV-0002i3-IJ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:54:14 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:33:19 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:33:18 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AF9B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVnQhtsB7Gb4yfDQ2u2/uw0xrpasQAVpcag From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 17:33:19.0398 (UTC) FILETIME=[2AB35460:01C56799] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0965996624==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 14:05:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddu45-0005Ag-FJ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:05:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ddu43-0005AY-Tt for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:05:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12255 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DduO5-00049h-7H for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:25:52 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:04:50 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:04:50 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AFD0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: items addressed by current editor's draft Thread-Index: AcVnnZG8qj0mjFjLQxyzxhMQLSJBSw== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 18:04:50.0695 (UTC) FILETIME=[92005970:01C5679D] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0424090304==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0424090304== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0424090304==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 14:43:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dduf0-0006fM-Ic; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:43:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dduez-0006fH-3F for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:43:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15622 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ccil.org ([192.190.237.100]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dduz1-00054q-4P for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:04:02 -0400 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Dduek-000409-Q1; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:43:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:43:02 -0400 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Message-ID: <20050602184302.GD32173@ccil.org> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AF9B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AF9B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > I followed John Cowan's suggestion that extlang should have exactly > one Prefix field. I allow variant to have more than one (and the reason > is in the text!!) 2.2.2 says: # Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, # must include one or more 'Prefix' fields indicating an appropriate # language tag or tags that should always appear as a prefix to the # extended language subtag. But what I intended was: # Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, # MUST include exactly one 'Prefix' field indicating an appropriate # language subtag (or sequence of subtags) that MUST always appear as a prefix to the # extended language subtag. -- LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan thou hast given away: cowan@ccil.org That thou wast born with. http://www.reutershealth.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 14:53:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dduon-0003B1-FF; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:53:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dduom-0003Aw-8W for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:53:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16691 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Ddv8q-0005Kk-BU for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:14:09 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:53:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:53:12 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3B02E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Thread-Index: AcVnouqGbZ+cQ23HSUuRQg4IjCUWJgAAVc4w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 18:53:13.0604 (UTC) FILETIME=[54451C40:01C567A4] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Elsewhere the text does say that. I'll correct this one, which was = unintentional. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: jeudi 2 juin 2005 11:43 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field >=20 > Addison Phillips scripsit: >=20 > > I followed John Cowan's suggestion that extlang should have exactly > > one Prefix field. I allow variant to have more than one (and the = reason > > is in the text!!) >=20 > 2.2.2 says: >=20 > # Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, > # must include one or more 'Prefix' fields indicating an appropriate > # language tag or tags that should always appear as a prefix to the > # extended language subtag. >=20 > But what I intended was: >=20 > # Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, > # MUST include exactly one 'Prefix' field indicating an appropriate > # language subtag (or sequence of subtags) that MUST always appear as = a > prefix to the > # extended language subtag. >=20 > -- > LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan > FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > thou hast given away: cowan@ccil.org > That thou wast born with. http://www.reutershealth.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 02 17:35:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdxLf-0000Oy-Ms; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:35:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DdxLb-0000Ok-Re for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:35:30 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03138 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdxFl-0003mu-0U for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:29:25 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.133 ([212.82.251.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:29:24 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:29:24 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:28:37 +0200 Organization: Lines: 9 Message-ID: <429F7A05.6D58@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AFD0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.133 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: items addressed by current editor's draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > What issues remain before we can start looking at a last > call? #1019 "redundant tags to appendix" is the last ? Then let's please forget it, nobody supported it, you didn't like it, it's really not important => editor's choice. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 03 00:09:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1De3Ud-0005o8-IV; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:09:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1De3Ub-0005ln-2N for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:09:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25981 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1De3oj-00018B-Ca for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:29:58 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-239.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.239] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1De3UO-0002z0-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: <006e01c567f2$62f99ec0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AF9B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:11:58 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:33 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field ... > All other changes should be in the document at this point. Are we ready for another official draft? ... Yes, please submit the i-d. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 03 07:50:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeAhD-0003ae-Mq; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:50:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeAhA-0003aN-7k; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:50:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18937; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DeB0u-0001hB-Hg; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:11:04 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 3 Jun 2005 04:49:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C56832.5ACECD0B" Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 04:49:53 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3B397@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: ltru wg submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03 Thread-Index: AcVoMlko/ZSLmyV3QnmO64de8xuLxg== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2005 11:49:55.0731 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C5EFE30:01C56832] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dabdb904844b0735b20e537120fa72ec Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] ltru wg submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: 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submission: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01 Thread-Index: AcVoMrOHlNv30fGLTHiYUrXgC+9lpQ== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2005 11:52:23.0722 (UTC) FILETIME=[B494A0A0:01C56832] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9404aa2ccc871248c2288463bebdd6b9 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] ltru wg submission: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56832.B3DE54F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBFZGl0b3IsDQoNClBsZWFzZSBmaW5kIGF0dGFjaGVkIHRoZSBMVFJVIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3Jv dXAncyBkcmFmdC0wMSBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtbWF0Y2hpbmcgaW4gdGV4dCBmb3JtYXQu 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56832.B3DE54F8-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 03 09:49:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeCYR-00089Q-KL; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:49:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeCYQ-000899-BB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:49:42 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27646 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050603134907.XABX8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c56842$fecff920$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050603115438.UYNX26131.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:48:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org John Cowan wrote: > But what I intended was: > > # Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, > # MUST include exactly one 'Prefix' field indicating an appropriate > # language subtag (or sequence of subtags) that MUST always appear as > # a prefix to the extended language subtag. "... one of which MUST always appear..." -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 03 09:53:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeCcC-00009U-Pk; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:53:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeCcB-000096-2t for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:53:35 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA28003 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050603135302.QMXD17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c56843$8eb2b0a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050603115438.UYNX26131.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:53:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: items addressed by current editor's draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > #1019 "redundant tags to appendix" is the last ? Then let's > please forget it, nobody supported it, you didn't like it, > it's really not important => editor's choice. If we have to enshrine the "redundant" tags anywhere -- as opposed to just being able to generate them without fanfare -- then I think it makes sense to have only one list of tags and subtags instead of two (the appendix for redundant tags, the registry for everything else). -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 03 15:55:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeIGL-000188-8j; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:55:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeIGH-00013F-Fr; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:55:21 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29160; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506031955.PAA29160@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:55:19 -0400 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Matching Language Identifiers Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2005-6-3 This document describes different mechanisms for comparing and matching the tags for the identification of languages defined by [RFC 3066bis] [1]. Possible algorithms for language negotiation and content selection are described. This document obsoletes portions of [RFC 3066] [19]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-3162840.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-3162840.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 03 15:55:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeIGc-0001H2-UU; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:55:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeIGY-0001Fg-Hg; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:55:38 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29225; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506031955.PAA29225@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:55:36 -0400 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt Pages : 62 Date : 2005-6-3 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-3162847.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-3162847.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 04 06:53:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeWHh-0003Ap-IF; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 06:53:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeWHf-0003Aj-Ix for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 06:53:43 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA22850 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 06:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DeWE6-0000aN-GK for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:50:02 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.231 ([212.82.251.231]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:50:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.231 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:50:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:52:01 +0200 Organization: Lines: 18 Message-ID: <42A187D1.1C16@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.231 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, the most perverse 62 example in -03 is nice, but I'm a bit confused by the accompanying MUST - RECOMMENDED - MAY text: | Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length | without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters | is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. The RECOMMENDED is fine. But what's the purpose of the MUST ? We know that it's impossible for an encoded word in a MIME header field line. " =?c*t?e?x?=" -> 9 " =?*?e??=" + 62 "t" = 71. That leaves 5 for the charset "c" + the text "x". Or in the case of "utf-8" precisely zero. RfC 2047 (still missing in the references and near the 2231 pointer) says encoded-text = 1* and does not like encoded empty strings. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 04 12:45:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DebmZ-000054-Ru; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:45:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DebmW-00004q-HW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:45:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16662 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 12:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dec6y-0007ul-QU for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:07:06 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:45:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] The most perverse tag Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:45:34 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3B848@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] The most perverse tag Thread-Index: AcVo88WWr+HgRJK0S1KKZZ/E7Rl+xQAMFUyw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2005 16:45:35.0072 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4415E00:01C56924] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org SHOULD makes more sense to me. I doubt there will ever be tags found in = the wild that are 62 characters long (extensions excluded) anyway. = Truncation of ones that approach this length are unlikely to spoil the = meaning, since a tag with ten levels of distinction (!!) is way more = precise than an Internet header can really enumerate accurately in the = first place.=20 Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?4? 3:52 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] The most perverse tag >=20 > Hi, the most perverse 62 example in -03 is nice, but I'm a bit > confused by the accompanying MUST - RECOMMENDED - MAY text: >=20 > | Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length > | without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters > | is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. >=20 > The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. The RECOMMENDED is > fine. But what's the purpose of the MUST ? We know that it's > impossible for an encoded word in a MIME header field line. >=20 > " =3D?c*t?e?x?=3D" -> 9 " =3D?*?e??=3D" + 62 "t" =3D 71. That leaves = 5 > for the charset "c" + the text "x". Or in the case of "utf-8" > precisely zero. RfC 2047 (still missing in the references and > near the 2231 pointer) says encoded-text =3D 1* and does > not like encoded empty strings. > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 04 13:45:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dechm-0000CL-PG; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:45:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dechl-0000C8-Bp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:45:05 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.mail.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19661 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050604174429.VENN4191.mta13.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:44:29 -0400 Message-ID: <001701c5692d$0b93af40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:44:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > | Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length > | without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters > | is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. > > The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. The RECOMMENDED is > fine. But what's the purpose of the MUST ? We know that it's > impossible for an encoded word in a MIME header field line. He's right. We might be within our bounds to require this for new applications, but we can't retrofit it onto existing applications that don't already support it. The rules for intelligent truncation would probably apply here (do not chop a subtag in half, consider removing extensions before other things, publicly state the limit to which truncation occurs). -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 04 13:51:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Deco2-0001On-LC; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:51:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Deco0-0001Oi-Ur for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:51:32 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20031 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050604175101.UWKZ8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:51:01 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c5692d$f63f1020$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:50:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > | Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length > | without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters > | is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. > > The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. Please do not delete this. It is a useful reminder to implementers that they need not limit themselves to the minimum requirement. Removing a five-word sentence will not shorten a 19,000-word draft in any significant way. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 04 20:15:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeinZ-000131-Tq; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:15:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeinX-00012w-UZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:15:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09244 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dej84-0006td-S3 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:36:41 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-241-3.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.241.3] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DeinV-0001iU-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:15:26 -0400 Message-ID: <003d01c56964$1b8b7ea0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001701c5692d$0b93af40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:18:31 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:44 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > > | Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length > > | without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters > > | is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. > > > > The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. The RECOMMENDED is > > fine. But what's the purpose of the MUST ? We know that it's > > impossible for an encoded word in a MIME header field line. > > He's right. We might be within our bounds to require this for new > applications, but we can't retrofit it onto existing applications that > don't already support it. > > The rules for intelligent truncation would probably apply here (do not > chop a subtag in half, consider removing extensions before other things, > publicly state the limit to which truncation occurs). ... If the current number is not acceptable, what IS the minimum beyond which conformant implementations MUST NOT truncate? As a technical contributor, I don't find the limitations of existing applications very persuasive, since we're adding features. I *do* find the limitations of existing *protocols* that use language tags more relevant, (though not decisive) since they will have a longer term impact on what can actually be used. However, if we learn that protocol FOO, for example, uses language tags and has a field of at most 3 octets to hold them, we should think hard before letting that be the tail that wags this dog. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 12:23:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dexu6-0007SK-Be; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:23:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dexu3-0007SF-9y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:23:13 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16618 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dexpj-0003BP-KG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:43 +0200 Received: from du-042-011.access.de.clara.net ([213.221.65.11]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:43 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-042-011.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:43 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:20:12 +0200 Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42A3263C.6C35@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001701c5692d$0b93af40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <003d01c56964$1b8b7ea0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-042-011.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > what IS the minimum beyond which conformant implementations > MUST NOT truncate? If you tolerate truncations you get three interesting limits in addition to the RECOMMENDED 64: 15 = only the language, lng-exa-exb-exc 20 = at least a script, lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn 24 = at least a region, lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830 The latter is still within the already documented limit 26 for lngeight-Latn-830-variant8 This 26 should be good enough for an 2231 / 2047 encoded word: =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*x?B?y?= ....5...10...,5...20....5...30....5 76 -26 -35 +2 = 17 for x has some leeway for worse charsets, Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 12:32:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dey2k-0008H9-5N; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:32:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dey2h-0008Et-Q5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:32:08 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA17021 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dexyy-00043i-I1 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:28:16 +0200 Received: from du-042-011.access.de.clara.net ([213.221.65.11]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:28:16 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-042-011.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:28:16 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:30:46 +0200 Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42A328B6.4AED@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001a01c5692d$f63f1020$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-042-011.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: >>| Support for tags of up to 64 characters is RECOMMENDED. >>| Implementations MAY support longer tags. >> The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. > Please do not delete this. It is a useful reminder to > implementers that they need not limit themselves to the > minimum requirement. Removing a five-word sentence will not > shorten a 19,000-word draft in any significant way. I'm a bit paranoid about unnecessary 2119 keywords. How about one sentence combining both effects: Implementations SHOULD at least support tags with 64 characters. If that's only a bad case of DEnglish lets's please forget it, the separate MAY is not critical. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 12:53:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeyNJ-000203-LN; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:53:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DeyNH-0001zv-Q9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:53:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA18565 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Deyhw-0002xR-Ln for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:14:46 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:53:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:53:07 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3B873@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Thread-Index: AcVp6vMk32sApbsTSoqSRMPMn2sp6AAAXOkg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jun 2005 16:53:08.0641 (UTC) FILETIME=[0D044110:01C569EF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 26 is the "useful limit" for 3066bis. 34 is the "useful limit" for 3066ter (two extlangs) There are some interesting lacunae in the longest tag sweepstakes. = Extlangs, as shown in the 62 character example, will never be assigned = to a registered language subtag, since presumably they are assigned by = ISO 639-3. As a result, the longest case is an alpha3 followed by two = extlangs (for 11 characters). The next longest case is an alphanum8 = registered language subtag (59 characters) making that the longest = legal-and-(un)likely 3066bis tag. The 24 example below avoids variant. One variant makes the tag 33 = characters. It would be more graceful if it were 32, but it looks like = 36 is the next "grace point" for tag buffer allocation. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?5? 9:20 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag >=20 > Randy Presuhn wrote: >=20 > > what IS the minimum beyond which conformant implementations > > MUST NOT truncate? >=20 > If you tolerate truncations you get three interesting limits > in addition to the RECOMMENDED 64: >=20 > 15 =3D only the language, lng-exa-exb-exc > 20 =3D at least a script, lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn > 24 =3D at least a region, lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830 >=20 > The latter is still within the already documented limit 26 for > lngeight-Latn-830-variant8 >=20 > This 26 should be good enough for an 2231 / 2047 encoded word: > =3D?pc-multilingual-850+euro*x?B?y?=3D > ....5...10...,5...20....5...30....5 >=20 > 76 -26 -35 +2 =3D 17 for x has some leeway for worse charsets, >=20 > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 13:46:00 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DezCC-0006oV-2m; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:46:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DezCA-0006oQ-WD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:45:59 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21351 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050605174527.UQGA8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:45:27 -0400 Message-ID: <005201c569f6$2acbd580$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050605160110.KUQF9011.mta2.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:43:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag, plus a comment on fine-tuning X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > As a technical contributor, I don't find the limitations of existing > applications very persuasive, since we're adding features. I *do* > find the limitations of existing *protocols* that use language tags > more relevant, (though not decisive) since they will have a longer > term impact on what can actually be used. However, if we learn that > protocol FOO, for example, uses language tags and has a field of at > most 3 octets to hold them, we should think hard before letting that > be the tail that wags this dog. I'm using the word "application" in the sense I think most group members intend, to mean something closer to "protocol" than "implementation." I agree that existing code does not matter, except perhaps in ways having to do with matching, which the matching document should address. As for existing protocols, it seems clear to me (as to Randy) that the draft must not be driven by a protocol that assumes, say, that a language tag can only be LL or LL-CC (and thus can't even handle RFC 1766 registered tags). RFC 2047, as extended by 2231, has its "encoded word" limit that has been discussed repeatedly on this list, and seems to be a good example of a "straight Internet" protocol that uses language tags (i.e. one that cannot be claimed to belong only to W3C, Unicode, etc.). This is a widely used protocol and might amount to an awfully big tail, if you will. It might be reasonable to consider the encoded-word-based limit that has been mentioned before (30-something? I've forgotten) for this purpose. BTW, as I read more RFCs that are comparable in scope to the present draft, I can't help noticing the broad and general statements and even errors that some of them contain, of the type which have been debated endlessly within this group, and which -- if allowed to stand uncontested in the present draft -- would have been considered deal-breakers. For example, without casting any aspersions on the authors of RFC 2231 for human error, it does specify the following ABNF statement: encoded-word := "=?" charset ["*" language] "?" encoded-text "?=" instead of the correct encoded-word := "=?" charset ["*" language] "?" encoding "?" encoded-text "?=" which was not reported as an erratum until four years had passed. Compare this to the extremely detailed fine-tuning and scrutiny to which the ABNF of the present draft has been subjected. Likewise, the Security Considerations section for RFC 2231 says in its entirety: "This RFC does not discuss security issues and is not believed to raise any security issues not already endemic in electronic mail and present in fully conforming implementations of MIME." Compare that to the discussions over homographs and mistagging and the like that have gone on within this group. And remember, RFC 2231 is a standards-track document. Is it just that the bar of scrutiny has been raised that much since 1997? -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 15:20:29 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df0fd-0007Bg-Nv; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:20:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df0fc-0007BY-Dm for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:20:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27934 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Df10I-0005eM-Aj for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:41:51 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j55JK9hY005250; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:20:08 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:20:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, In printing industry protocols, the following is the current state of length limitations on language tags: IPP/1.0 (RFC 2565/2566) and IPP/1.1 (RFC 2910/2911) - defines the over-the-wire datatype 'naturalLanguage' (maximum length 63 octets) Job Monitoring MIB (RFC 2707) - defines the textual convention 'JmNaturalLanguageTagTC' (maximum length 63 octets) Printer MIB v1 (RFC 1759) and Printer MIB v2 (RFC 3805) - defines the 'prtLocalizationTable' containing the columnar objects 'prtLocalizationLanguage' (max length 2 octets) and 'prtLocalizationCountry' (max length 2 octets) [Obviously, Printer MIB should _not_ be considered by LTRU WG - I argued unsuccessfully during Printer MIB v2 development to fix the broken language tags.] But language tag datatypes in IPP and the Job Monitoring MIB have been copied into almost every modern printing standard (from Bluetooth on the low end to CIP4 JDF production printing on the high end) and many private consortium printing specs. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:19 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag > > > Hi - > > > From: "Doug Ewell" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:44 AM > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag > > > > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > > > > | Implementations MUST be able to handle tags of this length > > > | without truncation. Support for tags of up to 64 characters > > > | is RECOMMENDED. Implementations MAY support longer tags. > > > > > > The MAY is obvious, that could be deleted. The RECOMMENDED is > > > fine. But what's the purpose of the MUST ? We know that it's > > > impossible for an encoded word in a MIME header field line. > > > > He's right. We might be within our bounds to require this for new > > applications, but we can't retrofit it onto existing > applications that > > don't already support it. > > > > The rules for intelligent truncation would probably apply > here (do not > > chop a subtag in half, consider removing extensions before > other things, > > publicly state the limit to which truncation occurs). > ... > > If the current number is not acceptable, what IS the minimum > beyond which > conformant implementations MUST NOT truncate? > > As a technical contributor, I don't find the limitations of > existing applications > very persuasive, since we're adding features. I *do* find > the limitations of > existing *protocols* that use language tags more relevant, > (though not decisive) > since they will have a longer term impact on what can > actually be used. > However, if we learn that protocol FOO, for example, uses > language tags and has > a field of at most 3 octets to hold them, we should think > hard before letting > that be the tail that wags this dog. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 16:58:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df2CW-0007Xo-Mo; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:58:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df2CS-0007Xj-SH for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:58:30 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02951 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050605205757.BUNE13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:57:57 -0400 Message-ID: <000501c56a11$3990b3e0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:57:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Preferred-Value added to registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I've updated the draft registry so it now contains "Preferred-Value" fields instead of "Canonical" fields. There is no other content change; only the name of the field was changed. In the latest draft, the "Recommended-Prefix" field has been changed to "Prefix" to allow its use with both extended-language and variant subtags. Since neither of these types of subtags exist in the draft registry, there are no fields of this type. The draft registry is available at: http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/lstreg.txt Please review it and send any comments or questions to the list. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 17:04:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df2I2-00081Y-Jm; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:04:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df2I0-00081B-OY for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:04:13 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03480 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Df2EC-0000rm-St for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:00:16 +0200 Received: from du-001-135.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.135]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:00:16 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-135.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:00:16 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:02:34 +0200 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: <42A3686A.5ECF@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-135.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org McDonald, Ira wrote: > IPP/1.0 (RFC 2565/2566) and IPP/1.1 (RFC 2910/2911) > - defines the over-the-wire datatype 'naturalLanguage' > (maximum length 63 octets) > Job Monitoring MIB (RFC 2707) > - defines the textual convention 'JmNaturalLanguageTagTC' > (maximum length 63 octets) We could RECOOMMEND 63 instead of 64. And keep "MAYbe more, maybe not" separate as it is in -03, and as Doug wants it. With an old magic number 63 we don't need a new 64 when what we really want is "at least 62" ;-) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 18:19:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df3TA-000721-LW; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:19:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df3T9-00071w-6T for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:19:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA08860 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from icu-project.org ([66.160.189.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Df3np-0000Tp-Pg for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:41:11 -0400 Received: from markdavis ([24.23.194.196]) by icu-project.org for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:14:54 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c56a1c$a90edfc0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Frank Ellermann" References: <42A3686A.5ECF@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:19:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA08860 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I have no problem with a recommended minimum of 63. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Ellermann" To: Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 14:02 Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag > McDonald, Ira wrote: > > > IPP/1.0 (RFC 2565/2566) and IPP/1.1 (RFC 2910/2911) > > - defines the over-the-wire datatype 'naturalLanguage' > > (maximum length 63 octets) > > > Job Monitoring MIB (RFC 2707) > > - defines the textual convention 'JmNaturalLanguageTagTC' > > (maximum length 63 octets) > > We could RECOOMMEND 63 instead of 64. And keep "MAYbe more, > maybe not" separate as it is in -03, and as Doug wants it. > > With an old magic number 63 we don't need a new 64 when what > we really want is "at least 62" ;-) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 21:46:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df6hI-00086r-5S; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:46:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df6hG-00086m-9t for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:46:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20558 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Df71y-000450-PX for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:08:01 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:46:21 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:46:20 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3B89B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Thread-Index: AcVqHMegIXbOQaM6Tt6XPIawjNuFjgAG3F6Q From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "LTRU Working Group" , "Frank Ellermann" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2005 01:46:21.0642 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A54CAA0:01C56A39] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0756702145==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 05 22:34:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df7Rc-00034L-2x; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:34:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df7Rb-00034G-Jy for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:34:27 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22541 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050606023355.HOJL17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:33:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c56a40$26f57980$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050606014645.UXNX15050.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:33:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I have no problem with changing the recommended lower limit from 64 to 63. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 00:24:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df9AB-0003EU-DK; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:24:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Df9AA-0003EP-4l for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:24:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA27726 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:24:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.65]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Df9Uu-0006a1-71 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:46:02 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-241-10.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.241.10] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Df9A6-0007jp-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:24:30 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c56a50$11df4520$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><001a01c5692d$f63f1020$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42A328B6.4AED@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:27:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - (as a technical contributor) > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 9:30 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag ... > I'm a bit paranoid about unnecessary 2119 keywords. How about > one sentence combining both effects: > > Implementations SHOULD at least support tags with 64 > characters. ... Please, no! With that wording, an implementation which only supported 2-character tags could claim to be conformant. I don't think that is what we want. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 11:20:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfJPH-000815-8r; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:20:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfJPG-00080t-80 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:20:50 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09918 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfJIE-0005ub-Oi for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:13:34 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-96.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.96]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:13:34 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-96.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:13:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:12:18 +0200 Organization: Lines: 41 Message-ID: <42A467D2.5EFC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050604160751.HNWT27822.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><001a01c5692d$f63f1020$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42A328B6.4AED@xyzzy.claranet.de> <002701c56a50$11df4520$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-96.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >> Implementations SHOULD at least support tags with 64 >> characters. > Please, no! With that wording, an implementation which only > supported 2-character tags could claim to be conformant. We're dicussing three nits at the same time. So far we have: - s/64/63/ is fine for some RfCs mentioned by Ira (2565, 2566, 2910, 2911, 2707 - I've checked the latter) - I wanted to combine "SHOULD 64" with "MAYbe more, maybe not" as shown above, Doug said it's a bad idea => forget it - any minimal MUST is a separate issue... > I don't think that is what we want. ...yes, "2" isn't good enough. The most perverse tag in the direction of "shortest" needs "8" (registered-lang) or "10" (grandfathered i-enochian) or maybe 11 = 3 +(1+4) +(1+2), but so far the worst was "10" (zh-min-nan). Applications supporting less than "10" were inompatible with 3066, no problem if they are also incompatible with 3066bis. For a compatible "only the language, no nonsense" application the new 3066is minimum would be "15" (lng-exa-exb-exc) instead of "10". Maybe add 5 for a script (1+4) and 4 for a region (1+3) to get a more interesting no-nonsense limit "24". But let's not get carried away, somewhere above 30 we would hit the 2047 barrier. Do we need an additional minimal MUST at all ? Apparently RFC 3066 does not have a clear minimum, and our "15" is obvious. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 11:36:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfJe6-0001g4-EJ; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:36:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfJe4-0001fs-Cf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:36:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11204 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfJyu-0003lS-Hq for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:57:42 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:35:56 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:35:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:35:54 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Thread-Index: AcVqT+G1PF0+VjHMSQefi9ZkqNX0HQAWd/DA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2005 15:35:56.0057 (UTC) FILETIME=[6E31C890:01C56AAD] X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Please, no! With that wording, an implementation which only > supported 2-character tags could claim to be conformant. > I don't think that is what we want. I think we want that conformant implementations / protocols must support reasonably-likely tags and should support more -- a "MUST" limit and a "SHOULD" limit. The suggestion of 26 for 3066bis allows for regdlang-scrp-123-variant1 which I think is reasonably likely. But we should consider what we think should be required for 3066ter. In that case,=20 lng-exa-exb-scrp-123-variant1 is, I think, reasonably likely -- that's 29. I'm not sure how Addison got 34, but if he can explain that, then I'd accept that number. The following might also be candidates for reasonably likely (the "MUST" limit), but perhaps others will consider these beyond what a conformant implementation must allow for: lng-exa-exb-scrp-123-variant1-variant2 (38) lng-exa-exb-scrp-123-variant1-x-private1 (40) As for the "SHOULD" limit, +1 for the value 63. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 12:31:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfKVt-0000QE-PD; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:31:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfKVq-0000Pa-4N for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:31:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14869 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfKqh-0004tu-Oz for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:53:17 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j56GVUv2000346; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:31:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:31:30 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Message-ID: <20050606162851.GA1508@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > But we should consider what we think > should be required for 3066ter. In that case, > > lng-exa-exb-scrp-123-variant1 > > is, I think, reasonably likely -- that's 29. I'm not sure how Addison > got 34, but if he can explain that, then I'd accept that number. By adding an extra extlang. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country should be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its population. For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 13:02:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfKzf-00043T-U8; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:02:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfKzf-00043O-9l for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:02:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17357 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfLKW-0005dB-4o for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:24:06 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:02:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:02:11 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3BC1A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Thread-Index: AcVqtWegyoeredyWTGGWaqyXNuvewQAASEWQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John.Cowan" , "Peter Constable" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jun 2005 17:02:12.0826 (UTC) FILETIME=[7BCA0BA0:01C56AB9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I think our approach here may be flawed. We're trying to have normative = and prescriptive values all in one requirement. The minimum requirement should be either 26 characters (the longest = practical 3066bis tag) or 33 if we add extlang support (for the longest = practical 3066ter tag). The vast preponderance of tags will fall into = this limit and neither is an impractical value (although 33 is maximally = ugly). The actual maximum for a meaningful tag (with three extlangs and two = variants, please note) is actually 42 characters. The remaining 20 in = the "62" value are private use (nearly a third!). We should document = both of these numbers as the outer edge of a meaningful generative tag. = The normative language for tags longer than 26 (or 33) should place the = burden on the person choosing the tag, though, not applications, i.e.: --- Language tags longer than this limit {ed note: 26 or 33} may be = truncated by applications or protocols that limit tag sizes. When = forming language tags, users and applications SHOULD avoid adding = subtags that add no distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the = registry (such as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag = composition. See Section 4.1 (Choice of Language Tag). Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first remove = all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the tag should then = be truncated by progressively removing subtags from the right of the = tag. Note that private use subtags are removed first. When removing = private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be removed along with = the last remaining private use subtag.=20 --- Then in section 4.4 (considerations for private use subtags) add: --- Users of private use subtags should note that applications or protocols = that truncate language tags (due to buffer length restrictions or other = considerations) will generally remove private use subtags before = removing other information from a tag. Extensive use or large numbers of = private use subtags may be compromised by certain kinds of processing as = a result. --- Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of John.Cowan > Sent: 2005?6?6? 9:32 > To: Peter Constable > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag >=20 > Peter Constable scripsit: >=20 > > But we should consider what we think > > should be required for 3066ter. In that case, > > > > lng-exa-exb-scrp-123-variant1 > > > > is, I think, reasonably likely -- that's 29. I'm not sure how = Addison > > got 34, but if he can explain that, then I'd accept that number. >=20 > By adding an extra extlang. >=20 > -- > John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan > www.reutershealth.com > And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country > should > be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its > population. > For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with = the > regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six > shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, = such > putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 15:34:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfNMS-0005lB-KH; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:34:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfNMR-0005kj-6o for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:34:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02020 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfNhG-000190-JD for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:55:45 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-115.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.115] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfNMG-0005OK-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:34:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c56acf$1ebb67e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <007a01c566e2$d468b0c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1017] Add Required-Prefix field Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:37:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Based on the discussion of issue #1018 and the addition of the "Prefix" field, I've marked this item "resolved". If you believe further discussion is necessary, please include the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 15:36:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfNP1-00065R-Ir; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:36:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfNP0-00065M-7u for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:36:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02172 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfNjt-0001Br-Kv for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:58:26 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-115.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.115] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfNOx-0006Lk-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:36:47 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c56acf$851a6040$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050603115438.UYNX26131.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <000c01c56842$fecff920$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:39:56 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:48 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1018] Add Macro-Language field > > John Cowan wrote: > > > But what I intended was: > > > > # Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, > > # MUST include exactly one 'Prefix' field indicating an appropriate > > # language subtag (or sequence of subtags) that MUST always appear as > > # a prefix to the extended language subtag. > > "... one of which MUST always appear..." ... Based on the discussion, I've marked this issue as being resolved by the addition of the "Prefix" field. Any additional discussion or fine-tuning of the wording should continue in this thread. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 15:44:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfNWH-00078O-Jo; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:44:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfNWG-00078F-7x for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:44:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA02832 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfNr9-0001VX-O3 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:05:56 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-115.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.115] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfNWD-0000y7-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:44:17 -0400 Message-ID: <006901c56ad0$8ef83460$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050603115438.UYNX26131.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001101c56843$8eb2b0a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1019] move redundant tags from draft registry to an appendix Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:47:22 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:53 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: items addressed by current editor's draft > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > > #1019 "redundant tags to appendix" is the last ? Then let's > > please forget it, nobody supported it, you didn't like it, > > it's really not important => editor's choice. > > If we have to enshrine the "redundant" tags anywhere -- as opposed to > just being able to generate them without fanfare -- then I think it > makes sense to have only one list of tags and subtags instead of two > (the appendix for redundant tags, the registry for everything else). ... Based on this dicussion, and the fact that the draft registry will itself be subject to WG and IETF last call, I'm going to say that we have a tenable rough consensus to reject this item. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 06 16:49:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfOXP-0001jy-Il; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:49:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfOXN-0001jt-Om for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:49:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17521 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfOsH-0006MW-EU for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:11:11 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j56KnNFf001039 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:49:23 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j56KnM1i263182 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:49:23 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j56KnMX4018886 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:49:22 -0400 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.sanjose.ibm.com [9.43.213.118]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j56KnJYA018737; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:49:22 -0400 Message-ID: <014001c56ad9$34f758c0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "John.Cowan" , "Peter Constable" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3BC1A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:49:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j56KnNFf001039 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I think you are right about the items being mixed. But the language you h= ave is too strong. "We should document both of these numbers as the outer edg= e of a meaningful generative tag." This is not the case, since private use tags may certainly be meaningful, as may be extension subtags; otherwise there would truly be no point to allowing them. So I suggest keeping the = 63 recommendation. Details: Suggested rephrasing: >Language tags longer than this limit {ed note: 26 or 33} may be truncate= d by applications or protocols that limit tag sizes. And, unless we say otherwise, also language tags below this limit may be truncated by applications... So change to: =3D> Language tags may be truncated by applications or protocols that lim= it tag sizes, although applications and protocols should not require truncat= ion to shorter than 63 bytes. >When forming language tags, users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag compositi= on. See Section 4.1 (Choice of Language Tag). ok > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first remove = all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from the right of the tag. No= te that private use subtags are removed first. When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be removed along with the last remain= ing private use subtag. Rephrase to get the right order, and to clarify that it is not "all extension subtags" or nothing. Also, unless we want different results, th= ey should first canonicalize. Also, the singleton note also is true for the other extensions, since otherwise the result is invalid (eg en-a-ABCDE ca= n't be truncated to en-a). So, =3D>Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first canonicalize the tag, then progressively remove extension and private use subtags, starting from the right of the tag, until the result fits. When removing private use or extension subtags, the singleton should be remove= d along with the last remaining private use or extension subtag. Note that private use subtags are removed first. If the tag is still too long after removing all private use and extension subtags, the tag should then be further truncated by progressively removing subtags from the right of the tag. >Users of private use subtags should note that applications or protocols that truncate language tags (due to buffer length restrictions or other considerations) will generally remove private use subtags before removing other information from a tag. Extensive use or large numbers of private u= se subtags may be compromised by certain kinds of processing as a result. "will generally" is too strong. And some other qualifications I find unnecessary or misleading. We also don't alert them that *part* of the content of an extension or private use sequence may be removed; e.g. "en-a-sort-diction" may turn into "en-a-sort". =3D>Users of private use or extension subtags should note that applicatio= ns or protocols that truncate language tags (due to buffer length restrictions = or other considerations) may remove private use or extension subtags. Large numbers of private use or extension subtags in a tag may cause the rightm= ost ones to be compromised in such cases. Specifications of private use or extension mechanisms should be designed so as to degrade gracefully in th= e face of possible truncation. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John.Cowan" ; "Peter Constable" Cc: Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:02 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag I think our approach here may be flawed. We're trying to have normative a= nd prescriptive values all in one requirement. The minimum requirement should be either 26 characters (the longest practical 3066bis tag) or 33 if we add extlang support (for the longest practical 3066ter tag). The vast preponderance of tags will fall into thi= s limit and neither is an impractical value (although 33 is maximally ugly). The actual maximum for a meaningful tag (with three extlangs and two variants, please note) is actually 42 characters. The remaining 20 in the "62" value are private use (nearly a third!). We should document both of these numbers as the outer edge of a meaningful generative tag. The normative language for tags longer than 26 (or 33) should place the burde= n on the person choosing the tag, though, not applications, i.e.: --- Language tags longer than this limit {ed note: 26 or 33} may be truncated= by applications or protocols that limit tag sizes. When forming language tag= s, users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.= 1 (Choice of Language Tag). Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first remove al= l extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from the right of the tag. No= te that private use subtags are removed first. When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be removed along with the last remain= ing private use subtag. --- Then in section 4.4 (considerations for private use subtags) add: --- Users of private use subtags should note that applications or protocols t= hat truncate language tags (due to buffer length restrictions or other considerations) will generally remove private use subtags before removing other information from a tag. Extensive use or large numbers of private u= se subtags may be compromised by certain kinds of processing as a result. --- Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of John.Cowan > Sent: 2005?6?6? 9:32 > To: Peter Constable > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: The most perverse tag > > Peter Constable scripsit: > > > But we should consider what we think > > should be required for 3066ter. In that case, > > > > lng-exa-exb-scrp-123-variant1 > > > > is, I think, reasonably likely -- that's 29. I'm not sure how Addison > > got 34, but if he can explain that, then I'd accept that number. > > By adding an extra extlang. > > -- > John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan > www.reutershealth.com > And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country > should > be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its > population. > For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with th= e > regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six > shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, su= ch > putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 00:38:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfVrf-0005Ay-IV; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:38:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfVrd-0005At-E2 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:38:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22785 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfWCY-0000K3-7s for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:00:38 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfVrP-0003gI-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:38:43 -0400 Message-ID: <006301c56b1b$3a370320$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0AEF01DE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #874] propagation of parent organization deprecations Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:41:39 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I've marked this one "resolved", since it is covered by the solution to issue #954. If you believe additional discussion is needed, please use an appropriate subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 00:48:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfW10-0006Fd-PG; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:48:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfW0w-0006FR-Oh for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:48:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23280 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfWLr-0000Sr-10 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:10:12 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfW0j-0005gg-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:48:22 -0400 Message-ID: <017001c56b1c$92d954a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #895] remove region subtags withdrawn from ISO 3166 before 1988 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:51:30 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Although there was no followup in this thread, it looks like the issue can be considered resolved by the agreement on date A/B principles. If you believe this issue should not be closed or otherwise merits more discussion, PLEASE include the issue number in the subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 00:59:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWBD-0007iP-MF; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:59:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWBC-0007iI-3f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:59:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23798 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfWW8-0000fl-AH for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:20:49 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfWB7-0000DI-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:59:05 -0400 Message-ID: <022501c56b1e$123ff720$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #897] change canonical values to match ISO 3166:1998 for region subtags withdrawn after 1988 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:02:13 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Other than a mention of this item in Doug's message http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg01383.html I don't see any follow-up to this item by number. However, I believe the changes have long been agreed, so I've marked this one "resolved". If further discussion of this issue is needed, PLEASE use the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 01:19:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWUi-000271-Ow; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:19:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWUh-00026q-B5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:19:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA24968 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfWpf-00012j-G2 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:41:00 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfWUd-0003nk-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:19:15 -0400 Message-ID: <02f301c56b20$e378d6c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0B7F33D0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #954] all aliases must be equally support ed Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:22:24 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" ... > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:26 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #954] all aliases must be equally support ed ... > Let's do the text and see how well that suits everyone's needs. ... Since there's been no further discussion of this since the updated i-d appeared, I'll mark this one "resolved". If you believe further fine-tuning is needed, please speak up NOW. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 01:28:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWdg-0003aX-Dc; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:28:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWdf-0003aP-G8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:28:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA25522 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfWyd-0001EC-Q6 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:50:17 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfWdc-0005Nb-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:28:32 -0400 Message-ID: <034301c56b22$2f3cc8e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050519024804.GD28377@skunk.reutershealth.com> <006101c55db7$1e9e0d00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #998] fate of grandfathered tags when subtags registered or replacements found Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:31:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - There was no followup to this thread, but the -03 draft is supposed to address this item. See http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02003.html So, I've marked it "resolved". If you think additional discussion is needed, or the draft doesn't fully address the issue, PLEASE speak up now, using the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 01:40:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWpV-0005Id-S7; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:40:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfWpT-0005Hl-61 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:40:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA26371 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfXAR-0001T5-Ng for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:02:28 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfWpM-0007UE-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:40:40 -0400 Message-ID: <03d401c56b23$e2863200$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <008901c566e3$23f698a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1020] stable forever != canonical forever Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:43:50 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As mentioned in message http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02003.html this issue is resolved by issue #954, so I've marked it "resolved". If you think additional discussion is needed, PLEASE include the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 01:58:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfX6A-0007Sr-B0; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:58:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfX69-0007Sl-8P for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:58:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA27418 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfXR7-0001lv-M4 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:19:42 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfX66-0002pS-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:58 -0400 Message-ID: <044b01c56b26$4c8d8700$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AFD0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:01:07 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:04 AM > Subject: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft > > Dear Randy, > > I show the following open items addressed by the current editor's draft, > pending the co-editor's declaration of consensus on them: (I assume you meant co-chair rather than co-editor :-) > #944: length restriction handling is now spelled out in depth. I've left this one open, since this discussion continues in the perverse tag thread. > #954: aliases are all supported. Mapping behavior is now defined. > #998: grandfathered items become deprecated if new registrations replace them. > #1000: There is a 'Suppress-Script' field. These three are all marked "resolved". > #1016: Extlangs are restricted to 3 (not 5) based on #944 I've left this one open, since this discussion continues in the perverse tag thread. > #1017: Changed 'Recommended-Prefix' to 'Prefix' and made it normative > #1018: Did not add 'Macrolanguage', although it is indistinguishable > from #1017 in fact. > #1019: unresolved. I voted against it. > #1020: resolved by #954's resolution. Entries are stable and vald forever. > Mappings ('Preferred-Value' fields) show the replacement values. > #874: resolved by solution to #954 also: parent organization changes are > propagated as long as they don't conflict with the rules of the registry > (which includes handling when they do). > #895: the Date A/Date B fix took care of this some time ago. Ok, these are all closed. > #893: ensured that the text spelled out that File-Date indicates the > relative currency of shadowed registry versions. That's not the core issue in #893. It's still open, but I *think* a brief discussion will be sufficient to reach closure. > Not addressed: > > #892: why is this still open? The registry is a text file. The likelihood > of it getting too large is very small. I thought this was disposed of. There have been no followups on this issue. I'd like some discussion (with the issue number in the subject line PLEASE). > #968: the load on IANA servers will not be appreciably higher and no > implementation should rely on the on-line version of the registry to > prevent DoS attacks. Please reject. As a technical contributor, I'm not totally happy with the language in the -03 draft addressing this issue; I'll post a followup in that issue's thread. > Unless there are other items hiding out and provided there is consensus > on the above changes, this should close everything that is open. What > issues remain before we can start looking at a last call? ... I urge everyone to review the mailing list discussion for any issues that should be recorded in the issue tracker, and to verify that they can live with the solutions proposed in the i-d. Let's try to wrap up the discussions by the end of this week. When the new i-d appears, we should be able to do our WG last call on it. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 02:18:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXQQ-0001rQ-PN; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:18:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXQP-0001rI-8G for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:18:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA16192 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfXlO-00023t-2j for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:40:38 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfXQL-0006Fi-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:18:53 -0400 Message-ID: <045401c56b29$392cddc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <014001c556bd$f6c8f560$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:22:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - The -03 draft says in its security considerations section: Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see: Section 3.6) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks. Although registry specifications don't typically talk about this kind of thing, since we've already stepped into this tarpit we should make our intent clear. As a technical contributor, I propose replacing this paragraph with: Although the registry defined here SHALL be available over the Internet, implementations MUST NOT depend upon it always being accessible. It is intended to be used as a resource for application developers, rather than for the applications themselves. Due to obvious scalability concerns, automated access to the registry by applications is NOT RECOMMENDED. One could write this same thing about almost all of the other registries maintained by IANA, but, since the issue was raised in the WG, I'd like to ensure that we address it. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 02:31:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXcd-0003JP-8B; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:31:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXcb-0003JE-TW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:31:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19826 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfXxa-0002Gu-RT for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:53:15 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfXcT-0000OU-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:31:25 -0400 Message-ID: <052e01c56b2a$f9224ba0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #892] instructions for IANA if registry becomes "too large" Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:34:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Are we in agreement that the size of the registry will not be a problem for the foreseeable future? If so, then we can mark this item "rejected". If not, then we need a specific proposal for instructions to IANA on how to handle things. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 02:34:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXfZ-0003iq-AQ; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:34:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXfX-0003ig-Mk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:34:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA20029 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfY0W-0002JO-R9 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:56:18 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:34:24 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:34:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:34:32 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft Thread-Index: AcVrJh0tD8leniynRm+YcjTNgULZhAABLvew From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 06:34:24.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[F21F4060:01C56B2A] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > #1016: Extlangs are restricted to 3 (not 5) based on #944 >=20 > I've left this one open, since this discussion continues in the > perverse tag thread. I think we've settled on 3 extlangs for the ABNF. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 02:38:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXjO-00049L-O7; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:38:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfXjN-00049G-9O for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:38:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA20358 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfY4M-0002O8-AU for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:00:14 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-242-254.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.242.254] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfXjI-0001W9-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 02:38:28 -0400 Message-ID: <053301c56b2b$f6328940$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #893] support incremental updates of registry shadows Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:41:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As I understand it, this issue was predicated on the assumption that the registry was potentially large enough, and the sites needing to shadow it sufficiently numerous, that an incremental update /retrieval mechanism (as DNS, X.500, webdav, etc.) might be warranted. As a technical contributor, I think the primary use case for the registry file (download by application developers) doesn't justify anything so elaborate, and would suggest that we reject this item. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 08:38:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfdLY-000402-0s; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:38:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfdLW-0003zx-U0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:38:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA19158 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfdgY-0001xw-QX for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:00:04 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j57Cc3Ec004869; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:38:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:38:02 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Message-ID: <20050607123802.GA1112@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <014001c556bd$f6c8f560$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <045401c56b29$392cddc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <045401c56b29$392cddc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > Although the registry defined here SHALL be available over the > Internet, implementations MUST NOT depend upon it always being > accessible. It is intended to be used as a resource for application > developers, rather than for the applications themselves. Due > to obvious scalability concerns, automated access to the registry > by applications is NOT RECOMMENDED. > +1 > One could write this same thing about almost all of the other registries > maintained by IANA, but, since the issue was raised in the WG, > I'd like to ensure that we address it. Ours is AFAIK unique because its format is strictly prescribed by an RFC with the intention of making it reliably machine-readable, though. -- Babies are born as a result of the John Cowan mating between men and women, and most http://www.reutershealth.com men and women enjoy mating. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Isaac Asimov in Earth: Our Crowded Spaceship jcowan@reutershealth.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 10:39:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffEz-0000Tr-SI; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:39:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffEv-0000Tm-4B for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:39:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA29222 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.145]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DffZx-0004ZW-4a for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:01:23 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j57EdPSD015750 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:25 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j57EdPsn204134 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:25 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j57EdOP4025042 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:25 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57EdLUM024802; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:24 -0400 Message-ID: <035901c56b6e$b1125370$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <014001c556bd$f6c8f560$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <045401c56b29$392cddc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:39:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e5.ny.us.ibm.com id j57EdPSD015750 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I don't really see the need for the stronger statement, but I have no objection to it either. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 23:22 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications > Hi - > > The -03 draft says in its security considerations section: > > Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see: > Section 3.6) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations > SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to > prevent denial-of-service attacks. > > Although registry specifications don't typically talk about this > kind of thing, since we've already stepped into this tarpit we > should make our intent clear. As a technical contributor, I propose > replacing this paragraph with: > > > Although the registry defined here SHALL be available over the > Internet, implementations MUST NOT depend upon it always being > accessible. It is intended to be used as a resource for application > developers, rather than for the applications themselves. Due > to obvious scalability concerns, automated access to the registry > by applications is NOT RECOMMENDED. > > > One could write this same thing about almost all of the other registrie= s > maintained by IANA, but, since the issue was raised in the WG, > I'd like to ensure that we address it. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 10:53:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffSX-0003BA-M6; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:53:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffSW-00039g-JI for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:53:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00514 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dffna-0004xE-3o for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:15:27 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:53:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:53:21 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB0511F@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft Thread-Index: AcVrJh0tD8leniynRm+YcjTNgULZhAABLvewABFo/eA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 14:53:22.0192 (UTC) FILETIME=[A662A900:01C56B70] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I agree: this has nothing to do with the perverse length thread (save = that it reduces the potential size of a tag). There are other = implementation benefits to this limit and these have been discussed and = there was no demurrer on the list. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 2005?6?6? 23:35 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft >=20 > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >=20 >=20 > > > #1016: Extlangs are restricted to 3 (not 5) based on #944 > > > > I've left this one open, since this discussion continues in the > > perverse tag thread. >=20 > I think we've settled on 3 extlangs for the ABNF. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Peter Constable >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 10:54:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffSy-0003GF-Ay; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:54:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffSx-0003GA-T5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:54:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00534 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dffo1-0004xg-Hd for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:15:54 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:53:57 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #893] support incremental updates of registryshadows Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05121@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #893] support incremental updates of registryshadows Thread-Index: AcVrK6IuxL5vSx4BTBCbWdnIK6owCgARRVpQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 14:53:57.0545 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB751990:01C56B70] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org +1 Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?6? 23:42 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #893] support incremental updates of > registryshadows >=20 > Hi - >=20 > As I understand it, this issue was predicated on the assumption > that the registry was potentially large enough, and the sites > needing to shadow it sufficiently numerous, that an incremental > update /retrieval mechanism (as DNS, X.500, webdav, etc.) might > be warranted. >=20 > As a technical contributor, I think the primary use case for > the registry file (download by application developers) doesn't > justify anything so elaborate, and would suggest that we reject > this item. >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 11:03:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffcH-0004zM-09; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:03:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DffcF-0004zH-V9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:03:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00932 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DffxH-000568-Kd for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:25:27 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:03:31 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:03:30 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05134@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Thread-Index: AcVrbsX7lvLza84JSZ6MByw8+tndyAAAxnUg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 15:03:31.0760 (UTC) FILETIME=[11B75B00:01C56B72] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0872818342==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 14:17:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfidf-0007zb-Vf; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:17:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfide-0007zW-NM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:17:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16590 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfiyj-0001Cx-RI for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:39:11 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-189-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.189.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfidX-0001F1-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:17:15 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c56b8d$93428c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <014001c556bd$f6c8f560$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <045401c56b29$392cddc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <20050607123802.GA1112@NYCMJCOWA2> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:12:14 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "John.Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications .... > > One could write this same thing about almost all of the other registries > > maintained by IANA, but, since the issue was raised in the WG, > > I'd like to ensure that we address it. > > Ours is AFAIK unique because its format is strictly prescribed by an RFC > with the intention of making it reliably machine-readable, though. ... Other examples of machine-parseable stuff maintained by IANA include numerous MIB modules (see http://www.iana.org/numbers.html#I ) Randy (one of the MIB doctors) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 14:27:05 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfin3-0001KG-7u; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:27:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfin2-0001KB-Rz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:27:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17484 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfj83-0001Pw-4R for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:48:49 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:26:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:26:25 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrjmi1awBeInqsQCaU9EETI2racA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 18:26:41.0446 (UTC) FILETIME=[7355D460:01C56B8E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1130169310==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1130169310== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxsLA0KDQpTb21lIHRpbWUgaGFzIHBhc3NlZCBhbmQgbWFueSBlbWFpbHMgaGF2ZSBmbG93ZWQg YWJvdXQgdGhlIG1vc3QgcGVydmVyc2UgdGFnLCBpdHMgcmVsYXRpb24gdG8gUkZDIDIwNDcsIGFu ZCBzbyBmb3J0aC4NCg0KQmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGFsbCBvZiB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCwgSSBoYXZlIHBy ZXBhcmVkIGEgc3Vic3RhbnRpYWxseSByZXZpc2VkIHRleHQgZm9yIHNlY3Rpb24gMi4xLjEuIFRo aXMgaW5jb3Jwb3JhdGVzIHRoZSAzMy1jaGFyYWN0ZXIgIm1vc3QgcGVydmVyc2UgZ2VuZXJhdGl2 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_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1130169310==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 14:30:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfiqS-0001ps-Un; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:30:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfiqS-0001pO-6u for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:30:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17644 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfjBX-0001TY-QR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:52:25 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-189-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.189.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfiqN-0006Wt-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:30:31 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c56b8f$6f3d2260$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05134@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #968] load on IANA server by applications Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:33:43 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Since we seem to have agreement on the thrust of the text, I'll mark this item "resolved". (I slightly prefer the SHALL form, but the difference doesn't seem consequential in this case, so I'd be happy leaving it to the editors' good judegement.) Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 14:43:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfj31-0003tF-R4; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:43:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfj30-0003tA-2p for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:43:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA20594 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfjO6-0001wO-Pu for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:05:23 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-189-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.189.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dfj2y-00039I-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:43:32 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c56b91$40f8bc00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05121@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #893] support incremental updates of registry shadows Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:46:44 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:53 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #893] support incremental updates of registryshadows > > +1 ... Ok, I'll mark this one "rejected". If anyone thinks this item merits further discussion, PLEASE bring your concerns to the WG mailing list now! Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 14:52:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjBq-00060e-9N; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:52:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjBp-00060Z-FP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:52:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21397 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfjWv-00029H-UA for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:14:30 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-189-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.189.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfjBn-0006bM-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:52:39 -0400 Message-ID: <003301c56b92$86f186a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:55:51 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Resolution of issue [psg.com #1016]: THREE extlangs? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Peter Constable" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:34 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] items addressed by current editor's draft ... > I think we've settled on 3 extlangs for the ABNF. ... That's what it sounds like to me, too. Are there any strenuous objections to imposing this limit? Speak up NOW. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 14:55:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjEe-0006KV-VO; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:55:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjEd-0006KQ-D4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:55:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21555 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfjZj-0002Ce-2E for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:17:24 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j57ItIA9006502; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:55:18 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:55:17 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Message-ID: <20050607185517.GE3364@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.txt Note that these, unlike the copy below, still contain the typo "requries". > - 33 (in this text): longest 3066ter generative I propose that all implementations that limit the length of language tags MUST support at least 33-character tags. Saying SHOULD is too weak: it allows silly 2-character or 5-character limits to still claim conformance. > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated by an > application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing language > tags users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no > distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such > as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See > Choice of Language Tag. The whole point of Prefix and Suppress-Script is to avoid the creation of problematic tags. I'd like the second SHOULD here to be MUST. > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > remove all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the tag > should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from the > right of the tag. Note that private use subtags are removed first. > When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be > removed along with the last remaining private use subtag. This is confusingly non-iconic. I propose this text: Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first remove all private use subtags including the '-x-'. If the tag is still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively removing extension subtags including the singleton from the right of the tag. If the hard lower limit of 33 is accepted, no further truncation will be required. Otherwise, add: If the tag is still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively removing variant, region, and script subtags from the right of the tag. > Note: The longest tag that might be generated based on the > grandfathered tags (see Section 2.2.8) that contain subtags not > otherwise defined by this document (and in a form that could be > registered as a variant) requires 20 characters (an example of this > tag might be "cel-Latn-155-gaulish"). I think this graf should be deleted, as it's productive of nothing but confusion. 'gaulish' is not a plausible candidate for registration as a variant. > The longest possible tags, excluding extensions, that might have some > marginal utility could have a length of up to 62 characters, as shown > below. The longest such tag without private use subtags requires 42 > characters. > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical tag > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > language = 3 > extlang1 = 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > extlang2 = 4 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-extlang1") > extlang3 = 4 (extremely unlikely) > script = 5 (must not be suppressed) > region = 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > variant1 = 9 > variant2 = 9 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-variant1") > private use 1 = 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > private use 2 = 9 > total = 62 characters > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag I'd leave this out altogether. -- John Cowan http://www.reutershealth.com I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, LOTR:FOTR _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:15:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjXr-0001MG-7s; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:15:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjXo-0001Le-Dp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:15:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23868 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfjsr-0002dE-Td for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:37:13 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-189-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.189.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfjXj-0007VE-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:15:19 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c56b95$b1696260$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <20050607185517.GE3364@NYCMJCOWA2> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:18:31 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - (as a technical contributor) > From: "John.Cowan" > To: "Addison Phillips" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:55 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) ... > > - 33 (in this text): longest 3066ter generative > > I propose that all implementations that limit the length of language tags > MUST support at least 33-character tags. Saying SHOULD is too weak: it > allows silly 2-character or 5-character limits to still claim conformance. Agreed. > > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated by an may -> MAY > > application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing language limit -> limits > > tags users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no > > distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such > > as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See > > Choice of Language Tag. > > The whole point of Prefix and Suppress-Script is to avoid the creation of > problematic tags. I'd like the second SHOULD here to be MUST. Agreed. > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > > remove all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the tag > > should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from the > > right of the tag. Note that private use subtags are removed first. > > When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be > > removed along with the last remaining private use subtag. > > This is confusingly non-iconic. I propose this text: > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > remove all private use subtags including the '-x-'. If the tag is > still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively > removing extension subtags including the singleton from the right > of the tag. This is an improvement, but leaves me with two questions: 1) is the intent that all private use subtags are to be removed in one fell swoop, or is it that they are to be removed progressively until the truncated tag falls within the implementations length limitations? 2) are the two "shoulds" intended to be MUSTs? if we want interoperability of implementations that truncate, I think we do. ... > > The longest possible tags, excluding extensions, that might have some > > marginal utility could have a length of up to 62 characters, as shown > > below. The longest such tag without private use subtags requires 42 > > characters. > > > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical tag > > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > > > language = 3 > > extlang1 = 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > extlang2 = 4 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-extlang1") > > extlang3 = 4 (extremely unlikely) > > script = 5 (must not be suppressed) > > region = 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > > variant1 = 9 > > variant2 = 9 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-variant1") > > private use 1 = 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > > private use 2 = 9 > > total = 62 characters > > > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag > > I'd leave this out altogether. ... This is one of those cases where I think it's helpful to the reader of a specification for the design rationale to be left in. Our experience in the SNMP community was that insufficiently explained numbers (like 484 in RFC 1157) keep coming back again and again to haunt whoever is maintaining the specification. Also, if it somehow turns out to be incorrect, we have a ready answer to the question: "What were you thinking?" :-) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:17:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjZu-0001aP-23; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:17:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfjZq-0001aJ-Oj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:17:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24247 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfjut-0002gO-5n for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:39:17 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j57JGw39019933 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:16:58 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j57JGwRO218686 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:16:58 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j57JGvlv027836 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:16:57 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57JGuoH027673; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:16:57 -0400 Message-ID: <04ad01c56b95$77469260$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:16:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j57JGw39019933 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f884eb1d4ec5a230688d7edc526ea665 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > Implementations that restrict storage should consider removing extensions before processing. ... > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated by an application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing language ... > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first remove all extension subtags. I disagree strongly with this language, as I stated before. It appears th= at you didn't see my message of Monday, June 06, 2005 13:49. Please look at that. >This limit SHOULD be at least 33 characters in length. I haven't heard anyone say why we shouldn't use 63 instead. (here and in other locations) >Here is how the 33-character length of the longest generated tag is derived: This is incorrect. en-US-x-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh is a generated tag, and it is longer. Moreover, I don't see the purpose of having this analysis be present in t= he specification itself. We should delete "Here is...Figure 2: Derivation of the Longest Generated Tag" And should delete also "Note: The longest tag...Figure 3: Derivation of t= he Longest Tag". I disagree that this is the longest practical tag -- what i= s "practical" is an extremely gray area -- and there is no reason for us to= go into the analysis. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:26 Subject: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > All, > > Some time has passed and many emails have flowed about the most pervers= e tag, its relation to RFC 2047, and so forth. > > Based on the all of this thread, I have prepared a substantially revise= d text for section 2.1.1. This incorporates the 33-character "most perverse generative tag" and my suggested text about handling user choice and language tag truncation and a bunch of other suggestions (Peter, John, Frank, etc), combined with a through-going rewrite. This version is poste= d in HTML and text formats at the following URIs: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.txt > > Basically the remaining issue I see (apart from fixing any text that I created) is deciding which lower-limit to endorse and whether to use SHOU= LD or MUST to endorse said limit. I currently show the proposed options as: > > - 33 (in this text): longest 3066ter generative > - 42: longest perverse tag, no private use > - 62: longest perverse tag, 2 private use > - 26: longest 3066bis generative > - none: who are we to propose limits? > > Here is the text of the revised section: > > -- > 2.1.1 Length Considerations > > RFC 3066 [23] did not provide for an upper limit on the size of > language tags. While the largest tag that could be generated from > language and region codes defined under RFC 3066 could not exceed si= x > characters in length, much larger registered tags were not only > possible but were actually registered. > > The ABNF and other guidelines in this document also do not impose a > fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a Language Tag (and > thus the upper bound on the size of a tag) and it is possible to > envision quite long and complex subtag sequences. The upper bound o= n > generative subtag combinations has expanded and, depending on the > specific language, may require more characters to form a complete > tag. > > In practice, most tags will not require substantially more > characters. This is partly because additional granularity in tags > seldom adds useful distinguishing information and because longer, > more granular tags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and > processing of language tags. Guidelines in the registry (see > Section 3.1) and in Choice of Language Tag also limit the way in > which subtags may be combined to form meaningful, valid tags. > > For example, variant subtags SHOULD be used only with the prefix > specified in the registry. This limits most tags to a maximum of > four subtags, and thus a maximum length of 26 characters (excluding > any extensions or private use sequences). A future revision of this > document may provide for the registration of extended language > subtags (see Section 2.2.2): useful tags that include extended > language subtags extend this limit to 33 characters, due to the > limitations on subtag length and combinations imposed by this > document. > > Some applications and protocols must allocate fixed buffer sizes or > otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a particular > application. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refus= e > to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified > length. For an example, see [RFC 2231] [22]. Any such limitation > SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include > the disposition of any longer tags (for example, whether an error > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limit > SHOULD be at least 33 characters in length. If truncation is > permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided. Implementation= s > that restrict storage should consider removing extensions before > processing. A protocol that allows tags to be truncated at an > arbitrary limit, without giving any indication of what that limit is= , > has the potential for causing harm by changing the meaning of tags i= n > substantial ways. Here is how the 33-character length of the longes= t > generated tag is derived: > > language =3D 3 > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > variant1 =3D 9 (must have language as a prefix) > > total =3D 33 characters > > Figure 2: Derivation of the Longest Generated Tag > > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated by an > application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing language > tags users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no > distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such > as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See > Choice of Language Tag. > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > remove all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the tag > should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from the > right of the tag. Note that private use subtags are removed first. > When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be > removed along with the last remaining private use subtag. > > Note: The longest tag that might be generated based on the > grandfathered tags (see Section 2.2.8) that contain subtags not > otherwise defined by this document (and in a form that could be > registered as a variant) requires 20 characters (an example of this > tag might be "cel-Latn-155-gaulish"). > > The longest possible tags, excluding extensions, that might have som= e > marginal utility could have a length of up to 62 characters, as show= n > below. The longest such tag without private use subtags requires 42 > characters. > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical tag > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > language =3D 3 > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > variant1 =3D 9 > variant2 =3D 9 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-variant1") > private use 1 =3D 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > private use 2 =3D 9 > total =3D 62 characters > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag > -- > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:42:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfjy7-0005pr-Hh; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:42:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfjy6-0005pd-6f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:42:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26314 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkJC-0003N0-Ae for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:04:23 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:42:14 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:42:13 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05331@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrlYIdTNXYAnwXRxO/X3351jOkqgAAgS1w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 19:42:14.0749 (UTC) FILETIME=[0164F8D0:01C56B99] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0301056090==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0301056090== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFyaywNCg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IEkgZGlzYWdyZWUgc3Ryb25nbHkgd2l0aCB0aGlzIGxhbmd1 YWdlLCBhcyBJIHN0YXRlZCBiZWZvcmUuIEl0IGFwcGVhcnMNCj4gdGhhdA0KPiB5b3UgZGlkbid0 IHNlZSBteSBtZXNzYWdlIG9mIE1vbmRheSwgSnVuZSAwNiwgMjAwNSAxMzo0OS4gUGxlYXNlIGxv b2sgYXQNCj4gdGhhdC4NCltBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzXSANCg0KSSBtaXNzZWQgdGhhdCBtZXNz YWdlLCBvciBhdCBsZWFzdCB0aGUgc3Vic3RhbmNlIG9mIGl0LiBZb3UncmUgc3VnZ2VzdGluZyB0 aGF0IHRoZSB0cnVuY2F0aW9uIGJlIGJ5IHN0cmljdCBwcm9ncmVzc2l2ZSByZW1vdmFsIGZyb20g cmlnaHQsIGNvcnJlY3Q/IE9yIHNob3VsZCB3ZSBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIGVudW1lcmF0ZSBwcm9ncmVz c2l2ZWx5IHJlbW92aW5nIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgZmlyc3Q/DQoNCj4gDQo+ID5UaGlzIGxpbWl0IFNI T1VMRCBiZSBhdCBsZWFzdCAzMyBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIGluIGxlbmd0aC4NCj4gDQo+IEkgaGF2ZW4n dCBoZWFyZCBhbnlvbmUgc2F5IHdoeSB3ZSBzaG91bGRuJ3QgdXNlIDYzIGluc3RlYWQuIChoZXJl IGFuZCBpbg0KPiBvdGhlciBsb2NhdGlvbnMpDQpbQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwc10gDQoNClRoZSBy ZWFzb24gd2FzIGdpdmVuIHNlbWktb2JsaXF1ZWx5IGJ5IEZyYW5rIGFuZCBJcmE6IFJGQyAyMDQ3 IGhlYWRlcnMgKGFuZCBvdGhlciBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMpIGNhbiBvbmx5IGNvbnRhaW4gYSBsaW1p dGVkIG51bWJlciBvZiBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIGFuZCA2MyBsZWF2ZXMgbm8gcm9vbSBmb3IgYWN0dWFs IGNvbnRlbnQuIFRodXMgaXQgc2VlbXMgbGlrZSBhbiBvdmVybHkgbGFyZ2UgdmFsdWUgYXMgYSAq cmVxdWlyZWQqIG1pbmltdW0uIFBvaW50aW5nIG91dCB0aGUgNjMgbnVtYmVyIG1ha2VzIGEgbG90 IG9mIHNlbnNlLCB0aG91Z2guDQo+IA0KPiA+SGVyZSBpcyBob3cgdGhlIDMzLWNoYXJhY3RlciBs ZW5ndGggb2YgdGhlIGxvbmdlc3QgZ2VuZXJhdGVkIHRhZyBpcw0KPiBkZXJpdmVkOg0KPiANCj4g VGhpcyBpcyBpbmNvcnJlY3QuDQo+IGVuLVVTLXgtYWJjZGVmZ2gtYWJjZGVmZ2gtYWJjZGVmZ2gt YWJjZGVmZ2gtYWJjZGVmZ2gtYWJjZGVmZ2gtYWJjZGVmZ2gNCj4gaXMgYSBnZW5lcmF0ZWQgdGFn LCBhbmQgaXQgaXMgbG9uZ2VyLg0KW0FkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHNdIA0KDQpUaGUgImxvbmdlc3Qg Z2VuZXJhdGVkIHRhZyIgdXNlcyBvbmx5IHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGVudHJpZXMgYW5kIG5vIHByaXZhdGUg dXNlIHZhbHVlcy4gSXQgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBsb25nZXN0IHRhZy4gVGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gImxvbmdl c3QgdGFnIi4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIG1lcmVseSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcHJvYmFiaWxpdGllcyBvZiBhIHRh ZyBiZWluZyBvZiBhIHNwZWNpZmljIGxlbmd0aC4gRXZlbiByZWFsbHkgbG9uZyBwb3RlbnRpYWxs eSB1c2VmdWwgdGFncyBkb24ndCBhcHByb2FjaCB0aGUgNjMgbWF4aW11bToNCg0KemgtbWluLW5h bi1MYXRuLUNOLXhpYW5nLXgtd2FkZWdpbGUgKDM1IGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgYW5kIHhpYW5nIGlzIGly cmVzcG9uc2libGUpDQo+IA0KPiBNb3Jlb3ZlciwgSSBkb24ndCBzZWUgdGhlIHB1cnBvc2Ugb2Yg aGF2aW5nIHRoaXMgYW5hbHlzaXMgYmUgcHJlc2VudCBpbg0KPiB0aGUNCj4gc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlv biBpdHNlbGYuIFdlIHNob3VsZCBkZWxldGUgIkhlcmUgaXMuLi5GaWd1cmUgMjogRGVyaXZhdGlv biBvZg0KPiB0aGUgTG9uZ2VzdCBHZW5lcmF0ZWQgVGFnIg0KPiANCj4gQW5kIHNob3VsZCBkZWxl dGUgYWxzbyAiTm90ZTogVGhlIGxvbmdlc3QgdGFnLi4uRmlndXJlIDM6IERlcml2YXRpb24gb2YN Cj4gdGhlDQo+IExvbmdlc3QgVGFnIi4gSSBkaXNhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIGxvbmdl c3QgcHJhY3RpY2FsIHRhZyAtLSB3aGF0IGlzDQo+ICJwcmFjdGljYWwiIGlzIGFuIGV4dHJlbWVs eSBncmF5IGFyZWEgLS0gYW5kIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IgdXMgdG8NCj4gZ28NCj4g aW50byB0aGUgYW5hbHlzaXMuDQpbQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwc10gDQoNCkFncmVlZC4gSXQgaXMg d2FzdGVmdWwgdG8gaWxsdXN0cmF0ZSB0aGlzIGluIHRoaXMgbWFubmVyLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoN Cg0KDQo= --===============0301056090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0301056090==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:49:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfk4T-0007Av-2o; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:49:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfk4R-0007Aq-Vf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:49:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26705 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkPV-0003Uj-UW for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:10:57 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:48:53 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:48:51 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05338@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrkn21T2QFgHMAT5GDQYOYL0CRKAABohBw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John.Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 19:48:53.0191 (UTC) FILETIME=[EEE26570:01C56B99] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c54bc2f42d02429833c0ca4b8725abd7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Comments follow... Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: John.Cowan [mailto:jcowan@reutershealth.com] > Sent: 2005?6?7? 11:55 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) >=20 > Addison Phillips scripsit: >=20 > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.html > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.txt >=20 > Note that these, unlike the copy below, still contain the typo = "requries". [Addison Phillips]=20 I fixed all the typos in my XML source document when I fixed them in the = email. Thanks. >=20 > > - 33 (in this text): longest 3066ter generative >=20 > I propose that all implementations that limit the length of language = tags > MUST support at least 33-character tags. Saying SHOULD is too weak: = it > allows silly 2-character or 5-character limits to still claim = conformance. [Addison Phillips]=20 Okay. >=20 > > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated by = an > > application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing = language > > tags users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add = no > > distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry = (such > > as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. = See > > Choice of Language Tag. >=20 > The whole point of Prefix and Suppress-Script is to avoid the creation = of > problematic tags. I'd like the second SHOULD here to be MUST. [Addison Phillips]=20 Agree. >=20 > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > > remove all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the = tag > > should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from = the > > right of the tag. Note that private use subtags are removed = first. > > When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be > > removed along with the last remaining private use subtag. >=20 > This is confusingly non-iconic. I propose this text: >=20 > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > remove all private use subtags including the '-x-'. If the tag = is > still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively > removing extension subtags including the singleton from the right > of the tag. [Addison Phillips]=20 Agree. >=20 > If the hard lower limit of 33 is accepted, no further truncation will = be > required. Otherwise, add: >=20 > If the tag is still too long, the tag should then be truncated by > progressively removing variant, region, and script subtags from > the right of the tag. >=20 > > Note: The longest tag that might be generated based on the > > grandfathered tags (see Section 2.2.8) that contain subtags not > > otherwise defined by this document (and in a form that could be > > registered as a variant) requires 20 characters (an example of = this > > tag might be "cel-Latn-155-gaulish"). >=20 > I think this graf should be deleted, as it's productive of nothing but > confusion. > 'gaulish' is not a plausible candidate for registration as a variant. [Addison Phillips]=20 It is the longest remaining grandfathered subtag. The next longest is = 'scouse', followed by 'xiang'/'boont', etc. This is more like special pleading for later (e.g. the limit is = reasonable because even long-ish tags that are reasonable don't exceed = it). >=20 > > The longest possible tags, excluding extensions, that might have = some > > marginal utility could have a length of up to 62 characters, as = shown > > below. The longest such tag without private use subtags requires = 42 > > characters. > > > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical tag > > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > > > language =3D 3 > > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs = prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > > variant1 =3D 9 > > variant2 =3D 9 (unlikely: needs = prefix=3D"language-variant1") > > private use 1 =3D 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > > private use 2 =3D 9 > > total =3D 62 characters > > > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag >=20 > I'd leave this out altogether. [Addison Phillips]=20 The 62/42 limit paragraph? The derivation I can see, but the longer = "minimum" is useful, especially if the lower limit is a mere 33. = Moreover, the 42 limit seems like a more responsible number than the 33 = limit if we trim extensions and private use, as your text elegantly = provides. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:53:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfk8z-00082S-Rx; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:53:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfk8z-00082N-2V for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:53:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27263 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkU6-0003ci-61 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:15:38 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j57Jrd3l006774; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:53:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:53:39 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Message-ID: <20050607195338.GF3364@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <20050607185517.GE3364@NYCMJCOWA2> <001201c56b95$b1696260$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001201c56b95$b1696260$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical tag > > > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > > > > > language = 3 > > > extlang1 = 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > > extlang2 = 4 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-extlang1") > > > extlang3 = 4 (extremely unlikely) > > > script = 5 (must not be suppressed) > > > region = 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > > > variant1 = 9 > > > variant2 = 9 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-variant1") > > > private use 1 = 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > > > private use 2 = 9 > > > total = 62 characters > > > > > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag > > > > I'd leave this out altogether. > ... > > This is one of those cases where I think it's helpful to the reader of a > specification for the design rationale to be left in. If we accept the lower-level hard limit of 33 characters, though, then a justification for 62 characters is not necessary. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third category. --Alan King _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:56:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkBs-0008Th-EQ; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:56:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkBr-0008Tc-0A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:56:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27705 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkWy-0003gm-7Z for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:18:36 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:56:37 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:56:36 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05347@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrlXimNhHkgqXtQRebY7+LEVBmJwAAa8VA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 19:56:37.0600 (UTC) FILETIME=[03B19600:01C56B9B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Some notes below. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > ... > > > - 33 (in this text): longest 3066ter generative [Addison Phillips]=20 So far 33 seems most popular. Note that 42 is probably a better number = in retrospect, especially if we go with John Cowan's text that shows = trimming off private and extension subtags. Two variants and three = extlangs is more of a boundary condition. > > > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated = by > an >=20 > may -> MAY [Addison Phillips]=20 Are you sure this makes sense? This use of "may" is an observation of = something previously made normative. >=20 > > > application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing > language >=20 > limit -> limits [Addison Phillips]=20 Good catch. >=20 > > > tags users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that = add no > > > distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry = (such > > > as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. = See > > > Choice of Language Tag. > > > > The whole point of Prefix and Suppress-Script is to avoid the = creation > of > > problematic tags. I'd like the second SHOULD here to be MUST. >=20 > Agreed. [Addison Phillips]=20 I agree. >=20 > > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > > > remove all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, = the > tag > > > should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from = the > > > right of the tag. Note that private use subtags are removed = first. > > > When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should = be > > > removed along with the last remaining private use subtag. > > > > This is confusingly non-iconic. I propose this text: > > > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > > remove all private use subtags including the '-x-'. If the tag = is > > still too long, the tag should then be truncated by = progressively > > removing extension subtags including the singleton from the = right > > of the tag. >=20 > This is an improvement, but leaves me with two questions: > 1) is the intent that all private use subtags are to be removed in > one fell swoop, or is it that they are to be removed = progressively > until the truncated tag falls within the implementations = length > limitations? [Addison Phillips]=20 Progressively. > 2) are the two "shoulds" intended to be MUSTs? if we want > interoperability > of implementations that truncate, I think we do. [Addison Phillips]=20 That seems reasonable. >=20 > ... > > > > > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag > > > > I'd leave this out altogether. > ... >=20 > This is one of those cases where I think it's helpful to the reader of = a > specification for the design rationale to be left in. Our experience = in > the SNMP community was that insufficiently explained numbers (like > 484 in RFC 1157) keep coming back again and again to haunt whoever > is maintaining the specification. Also, if it somehow turns out to be > incorrect, we have a ready answer to the question: "What were you > thinking?" :-) >=20 That is a useful point. Magic numbers (especially weird ones like "33" = or "62") can be a lot of work for non-initiates to understand. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 15:57:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkCt-0000KD-Ou; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:57:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkCr-0000JW-Nd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:57:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27819 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkXx-0003iq-SX for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:19:39 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:57:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:57:38 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05349@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrmrKqUY4zsBG5SKSujPibic9bGAAAFUtQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John.Cowan" , "Randy Presuhn" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 19:57:39.0275 (UTC) FILETIME=[287471B0:01C56B9B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Yes, although then the illustration of the magic number 33 (or 42 or...) = becomes interesting. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of John.Cowan > Sent: 2005?6?7? 12:54 > To: Randy Presuhn > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) >=20 > Randy Presuhn scripsit: >=20 > > > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical = tag > > > > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > > > > > > > language =3D 3 > > > > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > > > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs = prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > > > > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > > > > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > > > > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > > > > variant1 =3D 9 > > > > variant2 =3D 9 (unlikely: needs = prefix=3D"language-variant1") > > > > private use 1 =3D 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > > > > private use 2 =3D 9 > > > > total =3D 62 characters > > > > > > > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag > > > > > > I'd leave this out altogether. > > ... > > > > This is one of those cases where I think it's helpful to the reader = of a > > specification for the design rationale to be left in. >=20 > If we accept the lower-level hard limit of 33 characters, though, then > a justification for 62 characters is not necessary. >=20 > -- > John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is > dramatically overdescribed. Still other languages are simultaneously > overdescribed and underdescribed. Welsh pertains to the third = category. > --Alan King >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 16:14:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkPH-0004Zj-9Z; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:10:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkPD-0004Ng-TP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:10:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00562 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.141]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkkG-0004ac-Lu for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:32:25 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j57KAFGM025600 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:10:15 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j57KAFsn123156 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:10:15 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j57KA512006198 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:10:05 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57KA3j7005695; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:10:04 -0400 Message-ID: <04c801c56b9c$e309d5f0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "John.Cowan" , "Addison Phillips" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB052AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <20050607185517.GE3364@NYCMJCOWA2> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:09:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e1.ny.us.ibm.com id j57KAFGM025600 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John.Cowan" To: "Addison Phillips" Cc: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:55 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > Addison Phillips scripsit: > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.html > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04a.txt > > Note that these, unlike the copy below, still contain the typo "requrie= s". > > > - 33 (in this text): longest 3066ter generative > > I propose that all implementations that limit the length of language ta= gs > MUST support at least 33-character tags. Saying SHOULD is too weak: it > allows silly 2-character or 5-character limits to still claim conforman= ce. I am happy with a should of 63. I'm unhappy with a MUST of 33, since that may not be backwards compatible. > > > Since language tags longer than 33 characters may be truncated by = an > > application or protocol that limit tag sizes, when choosing langua= ge > > tags users and applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add n= o > > distinguishing value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (suc= h > > as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See > > Choice of Language Tag. > > The whole point of Prefix and Suppress-Script is to avoid the creation = of > problematic tags. I'd like the second SHOULD here to be MUST. I strongly disagree. As discussed many times, there are legitimate cases where an application may reasonably need to have the script in queries ev= en if Suppress-Script is present. A SHOULD is what we have now, and that should remain. > > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > > remove all extension subtags. If the tag is still too long, the t= ag > > should then be truncated by progressively removing subtags from th= e > > right of the tag. Note that private use subtags are removed first. > > When removing private use subtags, the singleton '-x-' should be > > removed along with the last remaining private use subtag. > > This is confusingly non-iconic. I propose this text: > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag should first > remove all private use subtags including the '-x-'. If the tag is > still too long, the tag should then be truncated by progressively > removing extension subtags including the singleton from the right > of the tag. While this is better, it still unnecessarily distinguishes between privat= e use and extensions. If it is ok to truncate en-US-a-abcdefg-abcdefg to en-US-a-abcdefg then it makes just as much sense to truncate en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg to en-US-x-abcdefg There is no reason for the x subtags to be all or nothing, and the extens= ion subtags not to be. All of the trunctation discussion can be much simplified by saying: When truncation to a specific length is required: 1. If the tag doesn't fit, remove the rightmost subtag and immediately preceeding '-' 2. Repeat #1 until it does fit. 3. If the rightmost subtag is a singleton, remove it and the preceeding '= -'. There is actually no need to do any analysis of what subtag means what in truncation; and the simpler it is, the easier it is for people to get it right. (In practice, of course, it is even simpler, since any legit truncation point is followed by a '-', and preceeded by two letters. Here is some quick&dirty code: static String truncateValidLanguageTag(String tag, int limit) { if (tag.length() <=3D limit) return tag; do { if (tag.charAt(limit) =3D=3D '-' && tag.charAt(limit-1) !=3D '-' && tag.charAt(limit-2) !=3D '-') break; } while (--limit > 2); return tag.substring(0,limit); } ) > > If the hard lower limit of 33 is accepted, no further truncation will b= e > required. Otherwise, add: > > If the tag is still too long, the tag should then be truncated by > progressively removing variant, region, and script subtags from > the right of the tag. > > > Note: The longest tag that might be generated based on the > > grandfathered tags (see Section 2.2.8) that contain subtags not > > otherwise defined by this document (and in a form that could be > > registered as a variant) requires 20 characters (an example of thi= s > > tag might be "cel-Latn-155-gaulish"). > > I think this graf should be deleted, as it's productive of nothing but confusion. > 'gaulish' is not a plausible candidate for registration as a variant. I agree; we should nuke this note. > > > The longest possible tags, excluding extensions, that might have s= ome > > marginal utility could have a length of up to 62 characters, as sh= own > > below. The longest such tag without private use subtags requires = 42 > > characters. > > > > Here is how the 62-character length of the longest practical tag > > (excluding extensions) is derived: > > > > language =3D 3 > > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > > variant1 =3D 9 > > variant2 =3D 9 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-variant1") > > private use 1 =3D 11 ("-x-" + subtag) > > private use 2 =3D 9 > > total =3D 62 characters > > > > Figure 3: Derivation of the Longest Tag > > I'd leave this out altogether. Agree here also. > > --=20 > John Cowan http://www.reutershealth.com > I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, LOTR:FOTR > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 16:20:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkZF-0002QX-7Y; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:20:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkZB-0002PO-UG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:20:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05015 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e6.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfkuG-0006AK-Fk for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:42:41 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e6.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j57KKd9v005267 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:20:39 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j57KKORO158826 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:20:39 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j57KKNUs005484 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:20:23 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57KKL4k005386; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:20:22 -0400 Message-ID: <04de01c56b9e$5392c6a0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05331@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:20:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e6.ny.us.ibm.com id j57KKd9v005267 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org my comments below. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:42 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > Hi Mark, > > > > > > > I disagree strongly with this language, as I stated before. It appear= s > > that > > you didn't see my message of Monday, June 06, 2005 13:49. Please look= at > > that. > [Addison Phillips] > > I missed that message, or at least the substance of it. You're suggesti= ng that the truncation be by strict progressive removal from right, correct?= Or should we attempt to enumerate progressively removing extensions first? See my later message to John. I'm suggesting strictly removal from the right, plus any trailing singleton that would remain. Simple. > > > > > >This limit SHOULD be at least 33 characters in length. > > > > I haven't heard anyone say why we shouldn't use 63 instead. (here and= in > > other locations) > [Addison Phillips] > > The reason was given semi-obliquely by Frank and Ira: RFC 2047 headers (and other applications) can only contain a limited number of characters = and 63 leaves no room for actual content. Thus it seems like an overly large value as a *required* minimum. Pointing out the 63 number makes a lot of sense, though. Ah, I now understand. I still think there is no reason to not use 63; aft= er all, it is a SHOULD, and if someone has reason for it to be shorter then they can make it so. > > > > >Here is how the 33-character length of the longest generated tag is > > derived: > > > > This is incorrect. > > en-US-x-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefg= h > > is a generated tag, and it is longer. > [Addison Phillips] > > The "longest generated tag" uses only registry entries and no private u= se values. It is not the longest tag. There is no "longest tag". There are merely different probabilities of a tag being of a specific length. Even really long potentially useful tags don't approach the 63 maximum: Every use of "generate" that I see in the text (before your changes) appl= ies to "generated according to this specification", which includes private us= e and extension. Nothing supports exclusion of the latter. And "generated" = is a bad term to use if you really mean "generated with the exclusion of private use and extension subtags". If we really need a single term for t= he later we should define a new term (but I'm not convinced we do). > > zh-min-nan-Latn-CN-xiang-x-wadegile (35 characters and xiang is irresponsible) > > > > Moreover, I don't see the purpose of having this analysis be present = in > > the > > specification itself. We should delete "Here is...Figure 2: Derivatio= n of > > the Longest Generated Tag" > > > > And should delete also "Note: The longest tag...Figure 3: Derivation = of > > the > > Longest Tag". I disagree that this is the longest practical tag -- wh= at is > > "practical" is an extremely gray area -- and there is no reason for u= s to > > go > > into the analysis. > [Addison Phillips] > > Agreed. It is wasteful to illustrate this in this manner. > > Addison > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 16:27:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkfU-0007FR-6b; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:27:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkfT-0007F3-14 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:27:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08380 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfl0Y-0007Jo-Lu for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:49:12 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:27:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:27:10 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB0537C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrnO9cln2nP+tJS2Sta7du0PqKCgAAiX2w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "John.Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 20:27:11.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[48E311A0:01C56B9F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0976178750==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0976178750== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG93IGFib3V0Og0KDQo8dD5BcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgb3IgcHJvdG9jb2xzIHRoYXQgbXVzdCB0cnVu Y2F0ZSBhIHRhZyBTSE9VTEQgZG8gc28NCmJ5IHByb2dyZXNzaXZlbHkgcmVtb3Zpbmcgc3VidGFn 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Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0976178750==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 16:30:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkiK-0001rB-DX; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:30:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfkiG-0001og-LX for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:30:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09874 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfl3M-0007nr-AL for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:52:04 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:30:05 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:30:03 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05382@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrnl+SRNjaKnOtQ0yaBqSX0O37+gAARnZQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 20:30:05.0472 (UTC) FILETIME=[B07A8A00:01C56B9F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0441302087==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0441302087== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIG9ubHkgdGhpbmcgSSdkIGFkZCB0byB0aGlzIGlzIHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGlzOg0KDQo8dD5T aW5jZSBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWdzIGxvbmdlciB0aGFuIDQyIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgbWF5IGJlIHRydW5j 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Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0441302087==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 16:39:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfkrd-0001eO-Bi; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:39:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfkrb-0001cU-IT for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:39:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12197 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DflCh-00008j-RY for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:01:45 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfkrU-0006v2-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:39:48 -0400 Message-ID: <009201c56ba1$7d9a5460$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB0537C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:42:57 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Mark Davis" ; "John.Cowan" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:27 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > How about: > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag SHOULD do so > by progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For example, when shortening the subtag sequence "en-a-abc-x-private1-private2", the first truncation produces "en-a-abc-x-private1" and the second truncation produces "en-a-abc". ... Replace "must truncate a tag SHOULD" with "truncate a tag MUST" and this technical contributor would be much happier. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 16:48:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfkzx-0003lV-Sm; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:48:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfkzv-0003lQ-Qo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:48:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12963 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DflL1-0000ON-7t for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:10:21 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:48:19 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:48:19 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrnl+SRNjaKnOtQ0yaBqSX0O37+gAARnZQAABFBiA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Mark Davis" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 20:48:19.0854 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CC7FAE0:01C56BA2] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1589440247==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1589440247== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UmVzdWx0cyBvZiBhbGwgdGhlIHN1Z2dlc3RlZCBjaGFuZ2VzIChJIHVzZWQgNDIgdGhpcyB0aW1l 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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfl2o-00058A-4I for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:51:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13138 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DflNv-0000Sf-VF for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:13:20 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dfl2m-0002S9-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:51:28 -0400 Message-ID: <00bf01c56ba3$205352a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:54:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I've reviewed the discussion of this issue (not easy, since practically all of it doesn't mention the issue number) and I *think* we have a rough consensus to reject this item. Are there any strenuous objections? Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 17:03:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DflE8-0007aX-8k; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:03:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DflE6-0007aH-R8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:03:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14008 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.141]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DflZE-0000kA-J4 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:25:00 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j57L31Wu010864 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:03:02 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j57L31sn262430 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:03:01 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j57L313R002899 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:03:01 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57L30xO002846; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:03:01 -0400 Message-ID: <051301c56ba4$488bb090$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05382@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:02:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e1.ny.us.ibm.com id j57L31Wu010864 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bf730a014b318fd3efd65b39b48818c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org agreed =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 13:30 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > The only thing I'd add to this is to change this: > > Since language tags longer than 42 characters may be truncated by an application or protocol that limits tag sizes, when choosing language tags... > > To this: > > Since language tags may be truncated by an application or protocol t= hat limits tag sizes, when choosing language tags... > > The lack (or presence) of a rigid limit doesn't affect advice to users = on choosing language tags that are succinct. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com] > > Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=887=E6=97=A5 13:20 > > To: Addison Phillips; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > my comments below. > > > > =E2=80=8EMark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:42 > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > > > > Hi Mark, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree strongly with this language, as I stated before. It appears > > > > that > > > > you didn't see my message of Monday, June 06, 2005 13:49. Please look > > at > > > > that. > > > [Addison Phillips] > > > > > > I missed that message, or at least the substance of it. You're > > suggesting > > that the truncation be by strict progressive removal from right, correct? > > Or > > should we attempt to enumerate progressively removing extensions firs= t? > > > > See my later message to John. I'm suggesting strictly removal from th= e > > right, plus any trailing singleton that would remain. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This limit SHOULD be at least 33 characters in length. > > > > > > > > I haven't heard anyone say why we shouldn't use 63 instead. (here and > > in > > > > other locations) > > > [Addison Phillips] > > > > > > The reason was given semi-obliquely by Frank and Ira: RFC 2047 head= ers > > (and other applications) can only contain a limited number of charact= ers > > and > > 63 leaves no room for actual content. Thus it seems like an overly la= rge > > value as a *required* minimum. Pointing out the 63 number makes a lot= of > > sense, though. > > > > Ah, I now understand. I still think there is no reason to not use 63; > > after > > all, it is a SHOULD, and if someone has reason for it to be shorter t= hen > > they can make it so. > > > > > > > > > > >Here is how the 33-character length of the longest generated tag= is > > > > derived: > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. > > > > en-US-x-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh-abcdefgh > > > > is a generated tag, and it is longer. > > > [Addison Phillips] > > > > > > The "longest generated tag" uses only registry entries and no priva= te > > use > > values. It is not the longest tag. There is no "longest tag". There a= re > > merely different probabilities of a tag being of a specific length. E= ven > > really long potentially useful tags don't approach the 63 maximum: > > > > Every use of "generate" that I see in the text (before your changes) > > applies > > to "generated according to this specification", which includes privat= e use > > and extension. Nothing supports exclusion of the latter. And "generat= ed" > > is > > a bad term to use if you really mean "generated with the exclusion of > > private use and extension subtags". If we really need a single term f= or > > the > > later we should define a new term (but I'm not convinced we do). > > > > > > > > zh-min-nan-Latn-CN-xiang-x-wadegile (35 characters and xiang is > > irresponsible) > > > > > > > > Moreover, I don't see the purpose of having this analysis be pres= ent > > in > > > > the > > > > specification itself. We should delete "Here is...Figure 2: Derivation > > of > > > > the Longest Generated Tag" > > > > > > > > And should delete also "Note: The longest tag...Figure 3: Derivat= ion > > of > > > > the > > > > Longest Tag". I disagree that this is the longest practical tag -= - > > what > > is > > > > "practical" is an extremely gray area -- and there is no reason f= or us > > to > > > > go > > > > into the analysis. > > > [Addison Phillips] > > > > > > Agreed. It is wasteful to illustrate this in this manner. > > > > > > Addison > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 17:07:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DflIf-0000Oa-9z; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:07:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DflId-0000OS-Gt for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:07:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14257 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfldk-0000qG-FT for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:29:41 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DflIa-00071D-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:07:49 -0400 Message-ID: <00dc01c56ba5$68b38ae0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:11:01 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Addison Phillips" ; "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:48 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). ... > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limit > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is ... SHOULD -> MUST, otherwise there is no lower bound to what can claim to be a conformant implementation. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 17:30:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfley-0005Ar-GT; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:30:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dflew-0005Ak-On for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:30:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15296 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfm04-0001ED-Ir for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:52:44 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dfleu-0005H5-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:30:52 -0400 Message-ID: <011f01c56ba8$a07495c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:34:02 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Wrapping up the registry draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As we're wrapping up our work on the registry draft, I urge you all to once again take a look at the requirements imposed by our charter ( http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html ), and then read the registry draft. I'd also like you to take a look at the issue tracker (https://rt.psg.com/ user and password are "ietf") for the queue "ltru-registry". Make sure the issues you think are important are documented, and that you can live with the resolution in the draft. (Or, in the case of the few issues still open, the direction being taken on the WG mailing list.) I'd prefer any technical or editorial issues to be resolved NOW, rather than waiting for WG last call, since we're a bit behind schedule. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 17:45:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfltM-0000KB-GF; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:45:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfltK-0000K3-G6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:45:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16322 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfmER-0001XS-OF for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:07:37 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j57LjaCD007272; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:45:35 -0400 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:45:35 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Message-ID: <20050607214535.GG3364@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <00dc01c56ba5$68b38ae0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00dc01c56ba5$68b38ae0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limit > > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > ... > > SHOULD -> MUST, otherwise there is no lower bound to what can claim > to be a conformant implementation. +1. Otherwise I'm happy with Addison's latest. -- Do NOT stray from the path! John Cowan --Gandalf http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 18:23:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfmUH-000077-45; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:23:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfmUE-000072-Ox for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:23:55 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19895 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfmNs-0004Ct-1L for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:17:20 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:17:20 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:17:20 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:14:29 +0200 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42A61C45.7FE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00bf01c56ba3$205352a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > I *think* we have a rough consensus to reject this item. > Are there any strenuous objections? Yes, remove 200, introducing a "new" region code for the old CS about 13 years after the split is a bad idea. It would be immediately deprecated, that makes no sense. 200 is also not covered by the strategy how Doug creates all other initial registry entries. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 18:31:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfmbU-0001e6-13; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:31:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfmbS-0001e1-3y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:31:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20365 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfmwX-0002Us-I0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:53:12 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:31:09 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:31:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:31:07 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrnadukaD/QRZyT3ipvsydsOQ6cwAEj72g From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 22:31:08.0970 (UTC) FILETIME=[99DC60A0:01C56BB0] X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Mark Davis > While this is better, it still unnecessarily distinguishes between private > use and extensions. If it is ok to truncate >=20 > en-US-a-abcdefg-abcdefg > to > en-US-a-abcdefg >=20 > then it makes just as much sense to truncate >=20 > en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg > to > en-US-x-abcdefg >=20 > There is no reason for the x subtags to be all or nothing, and the extension > subtags not to be. At least for extensions, since the meaning of extension subtags is defined elsewhere, we have no idea if changing en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg to en-US-x-abcdefg has had a neutral effect, a mildly negative effect, or a disastrous effect. Since *this* spec and protocols that conform to it are responsible only for interpretation of stuff *other than* the extension, I would have thought the safest this to do if any part of an extension needs to be removed is to remove the whole extension. I think I'd rather be responsible for some downstream process getting no info when some was expected than for it to get info that implied something significantly different than what was intended by the original sender. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 18:38:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfmiZ-0002xX-Mp; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:38:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfmiY-0002xS-Hg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:38:42 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20654 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfmda-0006XY-S4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:33:34 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:33:34 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:33:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:28:13 +0200 Organization: Lines: 8 Message-ID: <42A61F7D.3418@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Tag perversity text revised... (#944) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). 42 crashes with 2231/2047, that's IMHO impossible. The 33 proposal was better. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 19:02:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfn5W-0007ma-Nz; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:02:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfn5V-0007lH-PQ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:02:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22798 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfnQb-00036u-Ao for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:24:14 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:02:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:02:08 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB0546C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrnadukaD/QRZyT3ipvsydsOQ6cwAEj72gAAEdZMA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 23:02:08.0595 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE48A230:01C56BB4] X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Yes, although (Section 4.3) says: -- An extension MUST define any relationships that may exist between the = various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate = canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags. Extensions MAY = define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted. For = example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical = order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, = "en-a-aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa". Another extension = might define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic = meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from = "en-b-aaa-bbb-ccc"). However, extension specifications SHOULD be = designed so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in = Section 3.6 (Extensions and Extensions Namespace). -- And Section 3.6 in turn says: -- Extension authors are strongly cautioned that many (including most = well-formed) processors will be unaware of any special relationships or = meaning inherent in the order of extension subtags. Extension authors = SHOULD avoid subtag relationships or canonicalization mechanisms that = interfere with matching or with length restrictions that may exist in = common protocols where the extension is used. In particular, = applications may truncate the subtags in doing matching or in fitting = into limited lengths, so it is RECOMMENDED that the most significant = information be in the most significant (left-most) subtags, and that the = specification gracefully handle truncated subtags. When a language tag is to be used in a specific, known, protocol, it is = RECOMMENDED that that the language tag not contain extensions not = supported by that protocol. In addition, it should be noted that some = protocols may impose upper limits on the length of the strings used to = store or transport the language tag. -- Removing the entire extension or all extensions at first seems = appealing, although it requires that software be rather "smarter" than = with pure RFR truncation. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 2005?6?7? 15:31 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) >=20 > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On Behalf Of > > Mark Davis >=20 >=20 > > While this is better, it still unnecessarily distinguishes between > private > > use and extensions. If it is ok to truncate > > > > en-US-a-abcdefg-abcdefg > > to > > en-US-a-abcdefg > > > > then it makes just as much sense to truncate > > > > en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg > > to > > en-US-x-abcdefg > > > > There is no reason for the x subtags to be all or nothing, and the > extension > > subtags not to be. >=20 > At least for extensions, since the meaning of extension subtags is > defined elsewhere, we have no idea if changing >=20 > en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg > to > en-US-x-abcdefg >=20 > has had a neutral effect, a mildly negative effect, or a disastrous > effect. Since *this* spec and protocols that conform to it are > responsible only for interpretation of stuff *other than* the = extension, > I would have thought the safest this to do if any part of an extension > needs to be removed is to remove the whole extension. >=20 > I think I'd rather be responsible for some downstream process getting = no > info when some was expected than for it to get info that implied > something significantly different than what was intended by the = original > sender. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Peter Constable >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 19:08:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfnBR-0000eJ-6U; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:08:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfnBP-0000eB-Mj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:08:31 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23271 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfn6H-0002dE-PG for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:03:13 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:03:13 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:03:13 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:04:43 +0200 Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42A6280B.61FE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AFD0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <044b01c56b26$4c8d8700$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] #892 640 KB (was: items addressed by current editor's draft) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >> pending the co-editor's declaration of consensus on them: > (I assume you meant co-chair rather than co-editor :-) No, it's really co-editor, Chairs can't manipulate submitted drafts. Only co-editors can, in theory. It took me weeks to find out who tried to manipulate a submitted SPF draft - it was apparently the AD, not the co-editor. >> #1016: Extlangs are restricted to 3 (not 5) based on #944 That's fine, Peter said "go", it also works with 33 and 2047. > There have been no followups on this issue. I'd like some > discussion At the moment it's below 80 KB. Adding 7000 * 80 characters would push it to about 640 KB. Not nice, but also no reason to invent new IANA tricks. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 19:15:05 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfnHl-0001s0-P7; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:15:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfnHj-0001qk-Ba for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:15:03 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23668 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfnBu-0003T7-0z for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:09:02 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:09:01 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:09:01 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:11:09 +0200 Organization: Lines: 40 Message-ID: <42A6298D.304E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <42A61F7D.3418@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Tag perversity text revised... (#944) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > 42 crashes with 2231/2047 Arrghh... something is "smart" somewhere, here's what I sent: Message-ID: <42A61F7D.3418@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:28:13 +0200 From: Frank Ellermann Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: gmane.ietf.ltru Subject: Re: =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?Ta?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?g_?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?pe?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?rv?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?er?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?si?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?ty?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?_t?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?ex?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?t_?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?re?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?vi?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?se?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?d.?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?..?= (#944) References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Addison Phillips wrote: > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). 42 crashes with 2231/2047, that's IMHO impossible. The 33 proposal was better. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 19:52:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfns8-0002vI-SK; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:52:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfns6-0002us-VT for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:52:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29065 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfoDG-0004LT-4Y for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:14:30 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:52:29 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:52:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:52:27 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrnadukaD/QRZyT3ipvsydsOQ6cwAEj72gAAEdZMAAAdctgA== From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 23:52:29.0142 (UTC) FILETIME=[F6AB8760:01C56BBB] X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I had forgotten about that text. (I think I may have even suggested some of it.) I guess with that in mind, RFR is tolerable -- we've warned authors of extension specs that they should anticipate the possibility of such truncation. Peter Constable > -----Original Message----- > From: Addison Phillips [mailto:addison.phillips@quest.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 4:02 PM > To: Peter Constable; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) >=20 > Yes, although (Section 4.3) says: >=20 > -- > An extension MUST define any relationships that may exist between the various > subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate canonicalization scheme for > the extension's subtags. Extensions MAY define how the order of the extension's > subtags are interpreted. For example, an extension could define that its subtags are in > canonical order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a-aaa-bbb- > ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa". Another extension might define that the order of > the subtags influences their semantic meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a > different value from "en-b-aaa-bbb-ccc"). However, extension specifications SHOULD > be designed so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in Section 3.6 > (Extensions and Extensions Namespace). > -- >=20 > And Section 3.6 in turn says: >=20 > -- > Extension authors are strongly cautioned that many (including most well-formed) > processors will be unaware of any special relationships or meaning inherent in the > order of extension subtags. Extension authors SHOULD avoid subtag relationships or > canonicalization mechanisms that interfere with matching or with length restrictions > that may exist in common protocols where the extension is used. In particular, > applications may truncate the subtags in doing matching or in fitting into limited > lengths, so it is RECOMMENDED that the most significant information be in the most > significant (left-most) subtags, and that the specification gracefully handle truncated > subtags. >=20 > When a language tag is to be used in a specific, known, protocol, it is RECOMMENDED > that that the language tag not contain extensions not supported by that protocol. In > addition, it should be noted that some protocols may impose upper limits on the > length of the strings used to store or transport the language tag. > -- >=20 > Removing the entire extension or all extensions at first seems appealing, although it > requires that software be rather "smarter" than with pure RFR truncation. >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: 2005?6?7? 15:31 > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > > On Behalf Of > > > Mark Davis > > > > > > > While this is better, it still unnecessarily distinguishes between > > private > > > use and extensions. If it is ok to truncate > > > > > > en-US-a-abcdefg-abcdefg > > > to > > > en-US-a-abcdefg > > > > > > then it makes just as much sense to truncate > > > > > > en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg > > > to > > > en-US-x-abcdefg > > > > > > There is no reason for the x subtags to be all or nothing, and the > > extension > > > subtags not to be. > > > > At least for extensions, since the meaning of extension subtags is > > defined elsewhere, we have no idea if changing > > > > en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg > > to > > en-US-x-abcdefg > > > > has had a neutral effect, a mildly negative effect, or a disastrous > > effect. Since *this* spec and protocols that conform to it are > > responsible only for interpretation of stuff *other than* the extension, > > I would have thought the safest this to do if any part of an extension > > needs to be removed is to remove the whole extension. > > > > I think I'd rather be responsible for some downstream process getting no > > info when some was expected than for it to get info that implied > > something significantly different than what was intended by the original > > sender. > > > > > > > > Peter Constable > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 20:01:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfo0K-0004iI-EA; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:01:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfo0I-0004iD-Nb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:01:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29761 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e6.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.146]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfoLR-0004VF-3J for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:22:58 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e6.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5800orr028472 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:00:50 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5800osn163580 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:00:50 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5800eLE010237 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:00:40 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5800cmf010172; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:00:39 -0400 Message-ID: <059c01c56bbd$195f8ad0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:00:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e6.ny.us.ibm.com id j5800orr028472 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org But the same reasoning then goes for private use, so we should take the s= ame approach to that: either remove the whole subtag sequence, or just remove trailing elements that don't fit. I guess my feeling is that we notify extension writers and private use us= ers in the spec that truncation can occur. Because of that, they can account = for possible truncation, and organize their own subtags to detect it. For example, one could have the convention that the last subtag end with, say= , 0. And if I were an extension writer, I would rather that *some* information get through than that all be removed, given that I can detect any case of truncation. And the same goes for private use. And, this approach also has the advantage of being simpler for all those = who don't care about extensions or private use. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 15:31 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Mark Davis > While this is better, it still unnecessarily distinguishes between private > use and extensions. If it is ok to truncate > > en-US-a-abcdefg-abcdefg > to > en-US-a-abcdefg > > then it makes just as much sense to truncate > > en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg > to > en-US-x-abcdefg > > There is no reason for the x subtags to be all or nothing, and the extension > subtags not to be. At least for extensions, since the meaning of extension subtags is defined elsewhere, we have no idea if changing en-US-x-abcdefg-abcdefg to en-US-x-abcdefg has had a neutral effect, a mildly negative effect, or a disastrous effect. Since *this* spec and protocols that conform to it are responsible only for interpretation of stuff *other than* the extension, I would have thought the safest this to do if any part of an extension needs to be removed is to remove the whole extension. I think I'd rather be responsible for some downstream process getting no info when some was expected than for it to get info that implied something significantly different than what was intended by the original sender. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 21:28:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfpMf-0005K5-0p; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:28:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfpMd-0005K0-Mc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:28:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06156 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfphn-0006ER-LR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:50:08 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j581S2sq026141 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:28:02 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j581S2sn248248 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:28:02 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j581S2iB031683 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:28:02 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j581RxMZ031570; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:28:01 -0400 Message-ID: <05d101c56bc9$4d47b230$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:27:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j581S2sq026141 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org some corrections. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" ; "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 13:48 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). > > ~Addison > > -- > 2.1.1 Length Considerations > > RFC 3066 [23] did not provide for an upper limit on the size of > language tags. > While the largest tag that could be generated from > language and region codes defined under RFC 3066 could not exceed si= x > characters in length, much larger registered tags were not only > possible but were actually registered. =3D> While the largest tag that could be generated under RFC 3066 from language and region codes alone could not exceed six characters in length= , much larger registered tags could be and were registered, and private use tags could be arbitrarily long. [forgot private use] > > The ABNF and other guidelines in this document also do not impose a > fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a Language Tag (and > thus the upper bound on the size of a tag) and it is possible to > envision quite long and complex subtag sequences. The upper bound o= n > generative subtag combinations has expanded and, depending on the > specific language, may require more characters to form a complete > tag. =3D> generate quite long and complex subtag sequences. Depending on the specific language, it may require more characters to form a complete tag. [there is no upper bound on generative subtag combinations.] > > In practice, most tags will not require substantially more > characters. This is partly because additional granularity in tags > seldom adds useful distinguishing information and because longer, > more granular tags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and > processing of language tags. The 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' > fields in the registry (see Section 3.1) limit the way in which > subtags may be combined to form meaningful, valid tags. For example= , > variant subtags SHOULD be used only with the prefix specified in th= e > registry. > > Some applications and protocols must allocate fixed buffer sizes or > otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a particular > application. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refus= e > to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified > length. For an example, see [RFC 2231] [22]. Any such limitation > SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include > the disposition of any longer tags (for example, whether an error > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limit > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided. A protocol tha= t =3D> permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided, nor result in a= n invalid tag. A protocol that [this is to handle the trailing singleton] > allows tags to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving an= y > indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm > by changing the meaning of tags in substantial ways. > Here is how the > 42-character length of the longest generated tag is derived: > > language =3D 3 > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > variant1 =3D 9 (must have language as a prefix) > variant2 =3D 9 (must have language-variant1 as a prefix) > > total =3D 42 characters > > Figure 2: Derivation of the Limit on Tag Length [delete above diagram. not needed] > > Since language tags may be truncated by an application or protocol > that limits tag sizes, when choosing language tags users and > applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing > value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. =3D> value and SHOULD follow the Suppress-Script field in the registry. [we CANNOT say MUST since the requirements for Suppress-Script are SHOUL= D. We don't HAVE to mention at all the Prefix, because conformance elsewhere requires it anyway!] > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag MUST do so by > progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from > the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for > the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character > subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For > example, when shortening the subtag sequence "en-a-abc-x-private1- > private2", the first truncation produces "en-a-abc-x-private1" and > the second truncation produces "en-a-abc". > -- > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 21:37:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfpVU-0007DL-6Y; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:37:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfpVS-0007Cp-8F for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:37:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA06776 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfpqc-0006R3-BZ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:59:14 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j581bD8L009317 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:13 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j581bDsn262512 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:13 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j581bC9I011953 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:13 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j581bBI6011919; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:37:12 -0400 Message-ID: <05ee01c56bca$9621f1e0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Davis" , "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <05d101c56bc9$4d47b230$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:37:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j581bD8L009317 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I take back part of what I said. The Prefix is only required for extlang;= it is (correctly) a SHOULD for variants. So we should mention both Prefix an= d Suppress-Script, but we still have to change the MUST to a SHOULD. Thus t= he correction should be: > value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. =3D> > value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix with variants and > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 18:27 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) some corrections. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" ; "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 13:48 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). > > ~Addison > > -- > 2.1.1 Length Considerations > > RFC 3066 [23] did not provide for an upper limit on the size of > language tags. > While the largest tag that could be generated from > language and region codes defined under RFC 3066 could not exceed si= x > characters in length, much larger registered tags were not only > possible but were actually registered. =3D> While the largest tag that could be generated under RFC 3066 from language and region codes alone could not exceed six characters in length= , much larger registered tags could be and were registered, and private use tags could be arbitrarily long. [forgot private use] > > The ABNF and other guidelines in this document also do not impose a > fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a Language Tag (and > thus the upper bound on the size of a tag) and it is possible to > envision quite long and complex subtag sequences. The upper bound o= n > generative subtag combinations has expanded and, depending on the > specific language, may require more characters to form a complete > tag. =3D> generate quite long and complex subtag sequences. Depending on the specific language, it may require more characters to form a complete tag. [there is no upper bound on generative subtag combinations.] > > In practice, most tags will not require substantially more > characters. This is partly because additional granularity in tags > seldom adds useful distinguishing information and because longer, > more granular tags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and > processing of language tags. The 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' > fields in the registry (see Section 3.1) limit the way in which > subtags may be combined to form meaningful, valid tags. For example= , > variant subtags SHOULD be used only with the prefix specified in th= e > registry. > > Some applications and protocols must allocate fixed buffer sizes or > otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a particular > application. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refus= e > to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified > length. For an example, see [RFC 2231] [22]. Any such limitation > SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include > the disposition of any longer tags (for example, whether an error > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limit > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided. A protocol tha= t =3D> permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided, nor result in a= n invalid tag. A protocol that [this is to handle the trailing singleton] > allows tags to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving an= y > indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm > by changing the meaning of tags in substantial ways. > Here is how the > 42-character length of the longest generated tag is derived: > > language =3D 3 > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > variant1 =3D 9 (must have language as a prefix) > variant2 =3D 9 (must have language-variant1 as a prefix) > > total =3D 42 characters > > Figure 2: Derivation of the Limit on Tag Length [delete above diagram. not needed] > > Since language tags may be truncated by an application or protocol > that limits tag sizes, when choosing language tags users and > applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing > value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. =3D> value and SHOULD follow the Suppress-Script field in the registry. [we CANNOT say MUST since the requirements for Suppress-Script are SHOUL= D. We don't HAVE to mention at all the Prefix, because conformance elsewhere requires it anyway!] > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag MUST do so by > progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from > the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for > the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character > subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For > example, when shortening the subtag sequence "en-a-abc-x-private1- > private2", the first truncation produces "en-a-abc-x-private1" and > the second truncation produces "en-a-abc". > -- > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 22:02:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfptW-0003X9-RP; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:02:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfptT-0003V1-Ks for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:02:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08026 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfqEd-0006q7-EB for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:24:03 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:01:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:01:56 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05523@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVrypmpRbHIZS5QSn+1m4uu6NEosAAAsohg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2005 02:01:56.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C95B520:01C56BCE] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0416875548==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0416875548== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIE1VU1QgY2FuIHJlbWFpbiBhIE1VU1Q6IEkgaGFkIHRoZSBzYW1lIHJlYWN0aW9uIHRvIEpv aG4gQ293YW4ncyBzdWdnZXN0aW9uIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB0aW1lLCBidXQgdGhlbiB0aG91Z2h0IGFi 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4.32) id 1DfqGX-0008Gz-Tq; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:26:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfqGW-0008Gq-LR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:26:00 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10211 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050608022528.EJJW4191.mta13.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:25:28 -0400 Message-ID: <003601c56bd1$363c8540$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050607144049.LFIB18761.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:24:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #892] instructions for IANA if registry becomes "too large" X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Are we in agreement that the size of the registry will not be > a problem for the foreseeable future? If so, then we can > mark this item "rejected". If not, then we need a specific > proposal for instructions to IANA on how to handle things. It will not be a problem at all unless someone can explain the exact nature of the problem, in some detail. The fact that a user with a 2400-baud modem would need half an hour to download a 600K file does not mean the file has to be reformulated in some way. Files larger than that are commonplace. We went to considerable lengths to recast the registry into a form that was both machine- and human-readable and fairly space-efficient. When the time comes to add 7,000 extended-language subtags, we'll simply have to face the fact that that's a lot of data, and deal with it. I recommend rejecting this item. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 22:28:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfqIf-0000LL-BI; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:28:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfqId-0000It-MJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:28:11 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10279 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050608022740.NDNG8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:27:40 -0400 Message-ID: <003901c56bd1$82beb3c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050607191852.UCLZ29532.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:26:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Resolution of issue [psg.com #1016]: THREE extlangs? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >> I think we've settled on 3 extlangs for the ABNF. > ... > > That's what it sounds like to me, too. Are there any strenuous > objections to imposing this limit? Speak up NOW. Please, let's settle on 3 and be done with this tedious subject. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 22:31:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfqLz-00015a-Fc; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:31:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfqLy-00013x-7R for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:31:38 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10413 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050608023106.WNSG13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:31:06 -0400 Message-ID: <003c01c56bd1$fdbd36a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050607235307.JBCG2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:30:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> I *think* we have a rough consensus to reject this item. >> Are there any strenuous objections? > > Yes, remove 200, introducing a "new" region code for the > old CS about 13 years after the split is a bad idea. It > would be immediately deprecated, that makes no sense. > > 200 is also not covered by the strategy how Doug creates > all other initial registry entries. I am in complete agreement with Frank on this. However, I will stand by my word and not twiddle with the contents of the draft registry (removing 200, adding 831 and 832, etc.) until we are assured that doing so won't impede progress on the draft. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 22:59:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfqnB-0006gg-4f; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:59:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfqn9-0006fx-Gk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:59:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12824 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfr8J-00087w-1e for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:21:36 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dfqn6-00045a-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:59:40 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c56bd6$8e9797c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050607235307.JBCG2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <003c01c56bd1$fdbd36a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:02:49 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:30 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> I *think* we have a rough consensus to reject this item. > >> Are there any strenuous objections? > > > > Yes, remove 200, introducing a "new" region code for the > > old CS about 13 years after the split is a bad idea. It > > would be immediately deprecated, that makes no sense. > > > > 200 is also not covered by the strategy how Doug creates > > all other initial registry entries. > > I am in complete agreement with Frank on this. > > However, I will stand by my word and not twiddle with the contents of > the draft registry (removing 200, adding 831 and 832, etc.) until we are > assured that doing so won't impede progress on the draft. ... Let me be sure I understand you correctly: do Doug and Frank both object to rejecting item [psg.com #900]? Can I conclude that both Doug and Frank are strongly in favor of removing region subtag 200? Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 23:13:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfr0d-00014H-7x; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:13:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfr0b-00014C-HE for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:13:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA13764 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfrLl-0008Q3-VV for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:35:30 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dfr0Y-0000g3-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:13:35 -0400 Message-ID: <003e01c56bd8$804f0f20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050607144049.LFIB18761.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <003601c56bd1$363c8540$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #892] instructions for IANA if registry becomes"too large" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:16:45 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Based on the discussion, I've marked this item "rejected". If additional discussion is necessary, please include the issue number in the subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 23:31:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfrHZ-0004VL-3q; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:31:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfrHY-0004VG-6u for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:31:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14859 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfrcf-0000M8-TV for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:52:59 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfrHS-0005mA-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:31:02 -0400 Message-ID: <004301c56bda$efd6c700$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AFD0@irvmbxw01.quest.com><044b01c56b26$4c8d8700$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42A6280B.61FE@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:34:11 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Roles X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 4:04 PM > Subject: [Ltru] #892 640 KB (was: items addressed by current editor's draft) > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > >> pending the co-editor's declaration of consensus on them: > > > (I assume you meant co-chair rather than co-editor :-) > > No, it's really co-editor, Chairs can't manipulate submitted > drafts. Only co-editors can, in theory. It took me weeks > to find out who tried to manipulate a submitted SPF draft - > it was apparently the AD, not the co-editor. ... ??? Declaring consensus is the job of a (co-)chair, not a (co-)editor, if there is any question about whether there is a consensus. See RFC 2418 section 3.3, for example. Submitted internet drafts aren't supposed to change, other than to go away when expired or superceded. This is the first time I've heard of one being modified after posting. (I did see a couple mangled during posting by the secretariat's email software a while ago.) During the RFC-editing process, page layout changes happen as a matter of course, and IESG notes might be added, but the AUTH48 stage serves as a check on anything getting broken. If there is substantial IESG or IETF last call feedback, then normally a new i-d would be posted. No one likes to see significant changes in AUTH48, since they provide a potential source of errors and process end-runs. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 07 23:38:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfrP9-00066x-Kn; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:38:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfrP8-00066s-VW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:38:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15591 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfrkI-0000aJ-Vq for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:00:52 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfrP6-0000AC-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:38:56 -0400 Message-ID: <007001c56bdc$0b9ddf40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050607191852.UCLZ29532.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <003901c56bd1$82beb3c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Resolution of issue [psg.com #1016]: THREE extlangs? Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:42:07 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I've marked this issue as "resolved" with a limit of THREE extlangs. If further discussion is needed, please include the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 00:03:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfrmW-0002YN-M5; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:03:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfrmV-0002YI-A7 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:03:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA16802 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfs7f-00017L-Gv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:25:00 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfrmK-0006IA-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:02:56 -0400 Message-ID: <00cf01c56bdf$656abc20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:06:06 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Summary, from some off-list messages: > > Recently the United Nations Statistics Division added numeric codes for > Guernsey (831) and Jersey (832). That organization had already defined > a code for the Isle of Man (833), as well as a code for the Channel > Islands as a whole (830), which will not be discussed further here. > > I am aware that ISO 3166/MA looks to the UNSD list as a primary source > for determining whether alpha-2 and alpha-3 code elements will be added > to ISO 3166. As stated in the FAQ: > > "New names and codes are added when the United Nations publish new names > in either their Terminology Bulletin Country Names or in the Country and > Region Codes for Statistical Use maintained by the United Nations > Statistics Division. There is no other way of having new country names > included in ISO 3166-1. So if a name is not on these lists it will not > get into ISO 3166-1." > > This is not a promise that if a name *is* on these lists, it *will* get > into ISO 3166-1, but so far almost all of them have. > > The FAQ also notes that Guernsey, Jersey, and the Isle of Man have > reserved alpha-2 and alpha-3 code elements: > > Guernsey: GG, GGY > Jersey: JE, JEY > Isle of Man: IM, IMN > > and points out that "many applications outside the original scope of the > reservation" use these code elements -- that is, these particular > reserved code elements are already more widely used than most others. > > I would like to know, on behalf of the LTRU project and for my own > information, whether ISO 3166/MA plans to consider the formal assignment > of these code elements to Guernsey, Jersey, and the Isle of Man > respectively, moving them out of the realm of "reserved code elements" > and putting them on a par with the rest of ISO 3166, now that UNSD has > "completed the set" by assigning numeric code elements to all three of > these entities. > ------------------- > If it turns out that ISO is *not* going to add the codes for the > foreseeable future, we are fine. We can simply add the UN numeric > codes > to the registry and be done with it. If ISO is thinking at all about > adding them -- and I can imagine them "hot-tracking" such a request, > since > it's in Europe and the reserved codes already exist -- then we have > some > decisions to make. > --------------------------------- Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 00:04:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfrnc-0002nb-Rd; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:04:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfrnc-0002md-Dg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:04:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA16864 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfs8n-000190-2T for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:26:10 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dfrna-0006ce-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:04:14 -0400 Message-ID: <00d401c56bdf$94db3480$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:07:26 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In an off-list exchange, it was suggested that ISO 11179 should be > employed in the ltru registry definition. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 00:09:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfrsc-0003dk-DY; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:09:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfrsb-0003d9-1M for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:09:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17029 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfsDm-0001Cu-C6 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:31:18 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DfrsZ-0000C4-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:09:23 -0400 Message-ID: <00db01c56be0$4ca5ae60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00d401c56bdf$94db3480$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:12:34 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Randy Presuhn" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:07 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) > > Hi - > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In an off-list exchange, it was suggested that ISO 11179 should be > > employed in the ltru registry definition. ... As a technical contributor: >From what I've been able to glean from secondary sources (I'm to cheap to purchase this rather expensive multi-part specification) I don't see how ISO 11179 is really applicable to our work, and I've seen no statement of how applying it would increase our work's utility. Consequently, I suggest we reject this item. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 00:27:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfs9m-0007KU-B7; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:27:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfs9l-0007KP-4d for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:27:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17962 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DfsUv-0001Vx-UA for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:49:03 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j584Qrr1008970; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:26:53 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:26:53 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Message-ID: <20050608042653.GB2780@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <00cf01c56bdf$656abc20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00cf01c56bdf$656abc20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > If it turns out that ISO is *not* going to add the codes for the > > foreseeable future, we are fine. We can simply add the UN numeric > > codes to the registry and be done with it. If ISO is thinking > > at all about adding them -- and I can imagine them "hot-tracking" > > such a request, since it's in Europe and the reserved codes already > > exist -- then we have some decisions to make. I suggest that LTRU just sit on the problem and issue the registry without any codes for Guernsey and Jersey, and leave it up to ietf-languages to do whatever seems to be the Right Thing when we have more facts. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Is it not written, "That which is written, is written"? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 00:47:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfsTr-00036g-OE; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:47:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfsTq-00036b-Aj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:47:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19143 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfsp0-0001rg-8x for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:09:48 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:47:39 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:47:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registryframework) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:47:20 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registryframework) Thread-Index: AcVr3/oFtQsSZlW/TUGIE2AxQq9qhwABN/Dg From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2005 04:47:39.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[32C21470:01C56BE5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > As a technical contributor: >=20 > >From what I've been able to glean from secondary sources (I'm to cheap to > purchase this rather expensive multi-part specification) I don't see how > ISO 11179 is really applicable to our work, and I've seen no statement of > how applying it would increase our work's utility. Consequently, I > suggest > we reject this item. I agree. We can leave implementation of the registry as a 11179 implementation to an ISO WG, or at least a subsequent IETF project -- if there is ever an impetus to begin applying this ISO std in the context of IETF. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 01:05:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfskg-0006aq-Q4; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:05:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfskf-0006aS-Bj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:05:17 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19934 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050608050443.EPXF17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:04:43 -0400 Message-ID: <005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:03:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Let me be sure I understand you correctly: > do Doug and Frank both object to rejecting item [psg.com #900]? > Can I conclude that both Doug and Frank are strongly in favor of > removing region subtag 200? I am strongly in favor of removing region subtag 200, and I believe Frank is in favor as well (not trying to speak for him, just stating my belief). -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 01:16:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfsvn-0000Z0-Iy; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:16:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfsvl-0000Yv-Ci for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:16:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA20506 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Resent-From: jcowan@reutershealth.com Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DftGx-0002K1-Kw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:38:39 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j585GZEQ009143 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-Id: <200506080516.j585GZEQ009143@mail.reutershealth.com> Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:16:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:16:11 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Message-ID: <20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:16:35 -0400 Resent-To: ltru@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > I am strongly in favor of removing region subtag 200, and I believe > Frank is in favor as well (not trying to speak for him, just stating my > belief). I'm weakly in favor of removing it too, on the grounds that it has little or no practical utility. Old tags with -CS in them with the semantics "Czechoslovakia" can be readily rewritten, since neither Czech nor Slovak varies much across the two countries. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan If a soldier is asked why he kills people who have done him no harm, or a terrorist why he kills innocent people with his bombs, they can always reply that war has been declared, and there are no innocent people in an enemy country in wartime. The answer is psychotic, but it is the answer that humanity has given to every act of aggression in history. --Northrop Frye _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 01:41:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DftKA-0005Or-Ja; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:41:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DftK9-0005Oj-BT for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:41:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21933 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DftfK-0002o1-GY for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:03:51 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-3-50.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.3.50] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DftJn-0000Nu-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:41:35 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:44:42 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "John.Cowan" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 10:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 ... > I'm weakly in favor of removing it too, on the grounds that it has little > or no practical utility. Old tags with -CS in them with the semantics > "Czechoslovakia" can be readily rewritten, since neither Czech nor Slovak > varies much across the two countries. ... I'm wary of culling region subtags based on potentially subjective judgements of utility. I'd feel better about removing it if someone made a convincing case that retaining it would cause harm. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 01:44:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DftMf-0005xb-PV; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:44:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DftMf-0005xW-17 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:44:33 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22100 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050608054358.EVXC13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:43:58 -0400 Message-ID: <007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:41:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > Recently the United Nations Statistics Division added numeric codes for > > Guernsey (831) and Jersey (832). That organization had already defined > > a code for the Isle of Man (833), as well as a code for the Channel > > Islands as a whole (830), which will not be discussed further here. My gut instinct was that we should add 831 and 832 to the registry, and simultaneously remove 830. But that is the kind of invention and presumption that, as John Cowan said, is really better suited to the role of ietf-languages than this WG. (Not that some of us won't be right back there when this is over!) Additionally, Joseph Martinez (ISO 3166/MA Secretariat) told me that despite the addition of 831 and 832 to UN M.49, the corresponding reserved code elements GG and JE will not be added to ISO 3166 unless the British Standards Institution requests them. I don't have a contact at BSI, and Joseph didn't provide one, so I really don't have a clue whether BSI plans to pursue this or not. Despite the softening of the "Canonical" field in RFC 3066bis to "Preferred-Value," it would still be unfortunate if we added 831 and 832, then shortly thereafter had to deprecate them in favor of GG and JE. So I agree with John that we should not add the numeric codes. However... sorry to complicate things, but the situation is exactly the same for the Isle of Man. It has a UN numeric code (833) and an ISO 3166 reserved code element (IM) that would probably be promoted to full "assigned" status in a heartbeat, right alongside GG and JE, if BSI requested it. So we should really do the same thing for 833 that we do for 831 and 832, whatever that is. My proposal is to remove 833 from the registry as well. And whatever subtags are eventually assigned (or not) to Guernsey and Jersey, it seems evident that two separate subtags would be more appropriate than the combination code 830 for "Channel Islands." So I also propose removing 830 from the registry. This would actually have the nice side effect that all of the remaining numeric region subtags would be macrogeographical in nature, not stand-ins for "missing" alpha-2 subtags. Comments, please, as long as they do not impede the draft (this is actually an ltru-initial ticket, not ltru-registry). -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 02:00:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DftcC-0000Bv-Up; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:00:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dftc9-0000Bp-RM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:00:34 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA23294 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050608060002.XGFU8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:00:02 -0400 Message-ID: <048301c56bee$dd975c80$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:56:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > As a technical contributor: > > From what I've been able to glean from secondary sources (I'm to cheap > to purchase this rather expensive multi-part specification) I don't > see how ISO 11179 is really applicable to our work, and I've seen no > statement of how applying it would increase our work's utility. > Consequently, I suggest we reject this item. I did read, or rather skim through, the on-line version to which a kind soul directed me. While it seems quite appropriate for a more ambitious type of registry than ours, one with multiple interrelated tables, I feel it would be overkill for our effort. Therefore, I give Randy's suggestion a big +1. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 04:07:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfvbR-0005CS-4P; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:07:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfvbQ-0005CN-1h for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:07:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA05120 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suomi.kotus.fi ([193.166.18.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfvwc-0005WS-Hw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:29:51 -0400 Received: from kotus.fi (pc163.kotus.fi [193.166.18.163]) by suomi.kotus.fi (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5887jZm015950; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:07:45 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42A6A751.3030600@kotus.fi> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:07:45 +0300 From: Erkki Kolehmainen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: fi, en-us, sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB053A0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I feel slightly uncomfortable with the last chapter, because the examples given for the shortening of the subtag sequence (i.e., "en-a-abc-x-private1-private2" to "en-a-abc-x-private1" to "en-a-abc") show sequences that are quite short for required truncation (without pointing this out). Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen coordinator, cultural diversity issues in ICT Research Institute for the Languages of Finland Addison Phillips wrote: > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). > > ~Addison > > -- > 2.1.1 Length Considerations > > RFC 3066 [23] did not provide for an upper limit on the size of > language tags. While the largest tag that could be generated from > language and region codes defined under RFC 3066 could not exceed six > characters in length, much larger registered tags were not only > possible but were actually registered. > > The ABNF and other guidelines in this document also do not impose a > fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a Language Tag (and > thus the upper bound on the size of a tag) and it is possible to > envision quite long and complex subtag sequences. The upper bound on > generative subtag combinations has expanded and, depending on the > specific language, may require more characters to form a complete > tag. > > In practice, most tags will not require substantially more > characters. This is partly because additional granularity in tags > seldom adds useful distinguishing information and because longer, > more granular tags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and > processing of language tags. The 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' > fields in the registry (see Section 3.1) limit the way in which > subtags may be combined to form meaningful, valid tags. For example, > variant subtags SHOULD be used only with the prefix specified in the > registry. > > Some applications and protocols must allocate fixed buffer sizes or > otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a particular > application. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refuse > to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified > length. For an example, see [RFC 2231] [22]. Any such limitation > SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include > the disposition of any longer tags (for example, whether an error > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limit > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided. A protocol that > allows tags to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving any > indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm > by changing the meaning of tags in substantial ways. Here is how the > 42-character length of the longest generated tag is derived: > > language = 3 > extlang1 = 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > extlang2 = 4 (unlikely: needs prefix="language-extlang1") > extlang3 = 4 (extremely unlikely) > script = 5 (must not be suppressed) > region = 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > variant1 = 9 (must have language as a prefix) > variant2 = 9 (must have language-variant1 as a prefix) > > total = 42 characters > > Figure 2: Derivation of the Limit on Tag Length > > Since language tags may be truncated by an application or protocol > that limits tag sizes, when choosing language tags users and > applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing > value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag MUST do so by > progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from > the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for > the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character > subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For > example, when shortening the subtag sequence "en-a-abc-x-private1- > private2", the first truncation produces "en-a-abc-x-private1" and > the second truncation produces "en-a-abc". > -- > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 05:22:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfwld-00088d-SZ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:22:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dfwld-00088Y-5B for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:22:33 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA09963 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 05:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfwgt-0003n2-LS for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:17:39 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:17:39 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:17:39 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:14:04 +0200 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: <42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2> <000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > I'd feel better about removing it if someone made a > convincing case that retaining it would cause harm. I'd restart my questions why we don't have the UN numbers of other "lost regions" like the old "DE" or the old "SK", and the "rough consensus" is that thinking about these questions could harm the mental health of some WG members... Seriously, adding deprecated numbers for "lost regions" now is a can of worms. Let's add 831 + 832 and be done with it. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 05:50:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfxCK-0003Yl-Te; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:50:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfxCJ-0003Yf-A3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:50:07 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11536 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 05:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfx6r-0006br-EL for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:44:29 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:44:29 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:44:29 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:44:01 +0200 Organization: Lines: 32 Message-ID: <42A6BDE0.63D5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BA3AFD0@irvmbxw01.quest.com><044b01c56b26$4c8d8700$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42A6280B.61FE@xyzzy.claranet.de> <004301c56bda$efd6c700$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Roles X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Declaring consensus is the job of a (co-)chair, not a > (co-)editor, Yes, and you also appoint editors, and pick drafts as official WG drafts (at least for the -00 version), and maybe it's also your job to tickle the AD if something's ready for "last call". But you don't _edit_ - only the editors edit (later with the help of the RfC editor). The IESG can add notes. AFAIK you can't add notes or edit. Maybe you could appoint yourself as editor, but that's an odd idea, it would skip a complete step in the checks ad balances. > This is the first time I've heard of one being modified > after posting. In their "48 hours" the authors can still fix typos. And the RfC editor probably tries to catch formal problems, otherwise they'd simply attach numbers and publish after approval, and there would be almost no queue delay, let alone four months. > No one likes to see significant changes in AUTH48, since they > provide a potential source of errors and process end-runs. In the case where I tried to find out what happened it was a note to the RfC editor to remove a critical "NOT RECOMMENDED". Now it's a complete chapter. And of course "NOT RECOMMENDED". Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 06:15:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfxaV-00071C-JT; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:15:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfxaT-000711-Iu for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:15:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12602 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk ([195.112.4.54]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dfxvh-0007pF-Ea for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:37:02 -0400 Received: from debbie (ictbarn.gotadsl.co.uk [213.208.115.6]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957CA2542F5; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registryframework) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:15:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcVr30INqU0iaZfGS4+i9jQfz01g+gAMx+Dw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <00d401c56bdf$94db3480$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Message-Id: <20050608101454.957CA2542F5@smtp.nildram.co.uk> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi FYI the proposed 639-6 draft is currently being harmonized with ISO 11179; parts 1 (framework) and 6 (registration) Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn Sent: 08 June 2005 05:07 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registryframework) Hi - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In an off-list exchange, it was suggested that ISO 11179 should be > employed in the ltru registry definition. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 06:19:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfxeH-0007dr-RU; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:19:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DfxeD-0007dm-QR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:19:00 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12793 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfxZR-0001Sf-L1 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:14:01 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:14:01 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:14:01 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:14:55 +0200 Organization: Lines: 34 Message-ID: <42A6C51F.1E4C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > that is the kind of invention and presumption that, as John > Cowan said, is really better suited to the role of > ietf-languages than this WG. (Not that some of us won't be > right back there when this is over!) At one point in time you'll have an initial registry, with the help of the languages list or not, that is "date B". And if at "date B" GG, IM, and JE are not in the registry then you'd need 831, 832, and 833. The UN page has now 830 _and_ 831 + 832, that's certainly odd. Maybe they have their own "transition period" (?) Or it's a bug on their Web page. Or they have serious problems with our "same piece of..." rule ;-) Or they keep 830 for Sark, Alderney, and anything that doesn't necessarily belong to 831 and 832 - no, that's probably wrong. > unless the British Standards Institution requests them. We could appeal to their Queen, oops, Duke. Delaying "date B" until that issue is resolved is no plan. If there's a delay anyway for the fine tuning of the Suppress-Scripts it's okay. > we should really do the same thing for 833 that we do for 831 > and 832, whatever that is. My proposal is to remove 833 from > the registry as well. No problem for a timestamp before "date B". But if the initial registry completely excludes three regions, or if we have to wait, then I'm not yet convinced that that's a good idea. Bye. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 09:16:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg0QQ-0001Ii-FF; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:16:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg0QO-0001Ia-Hl for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:16:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA26131 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg0ld-0003jE-Np for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:38:51 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j58DGWlJ010948; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:16:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:16:31 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Message-ID: <20050608131631.GE2780@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > However... sorry to complicate things, but the situation is exactly the > same for the Isle of Man. It has a UN numeric code (833) and an ISO > 3166 reserved code element (IM) that would probably be promoted to full > "assigned" status in a heartbeat, right alongside GG and JE, if BSI > requested it. So we should really do the same thing for 833 that we do > for 831 and 832, whatever that is. My proposal is to remove 833 from > the registry as well. +1 > And whatever subtags are eventually assigned (or not) to Guernsey and > Jersey, it seems evident that two separate subtags would be more > appropriate than the combination code 830 for "Channel Islands." So I > also propose removing 830 from the registry. -1; see below. > This would actually have the nice side effect that all of the remaining > numeric region subtags would be macrogeographical in nature, not > stand-ins for "missing" alpha-2 subtags. 830 actually is a macrogeographical region, though it's a *small* macrogeographical region. As I pointed out before, Jersey and Guernsey actually don't share anything at all except their Duke and their TV station. Frank Ellerman scripsit: > The UN page has now 830 _and_ 831 + 832, that's certainly odd. > Maybe they have their own "transition period" (?) Or it's a > bug on their Web page. Or they have serious problems with our > "same piece of..." rule ;-) Nothing inconsistent about it; 831 and 832 are national territories, 830 is a region. > Or they keep 830 for Sark, Alderney, and anything that doesn't > necessarily belong to 831 and 832 - no, that's probably wrong. Sark and Alderney, like Herm, Jethou, Brecqhou, and Lihou, are part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, so part of 831. The Bailiwick of Jersey includes only the island of Jersey and some uninhabited islets. -- Some people open all the Windows; John Cowan wise wives welcome the spring jcowan@reutershealth.com by moving the Unix. http://www.reutershealth.com --ad for Unix Book Units (U.K.) http://www.ccil.org/~cowan (see http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/unix3image.gif) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 09:57:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg141-0000y5-Cw; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:57:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg13z-0000y0-T3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:57:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29855 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.145]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg1PF-0004lX-Aq for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:19:46 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j58DvbfD021025 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:57:37 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j58DvW3S176636 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:57:37 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j58DvVgf022702 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:57:32 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j58DvTg1022489; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:57:30 -0400 Message-ID: <06c301c56c32$01515840$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05523@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:57:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e5.ny.us.ibm.com id j58DvbfD021025 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb93e867a11a29ac1dc5018706b412ac Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I disagree. MUST is compliance language. Instructions cannot use MUST if they are just guidance to users who 'wish' something. And since the instructions are NOT guaranteed to "avoid problems", that is even more th= e case. The text should be: =3D> Users or applications who wish to avoid problems with applications o= r protocols that truncate tags or have limited storage should avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing value, and follow fields in the regist= ry (such as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1 (Choice of Language Tag). =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 19:01 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > The MUST can remain a MUST: I had the same reaction to John Cowan's suggestion the first time, but then thought about it. Here's the distinction: this is an instruction to users selecting tags. It is an instance of "tag content wisely". Admittedly, we could wrap the MUST in a SHOULD, or at least an implied SHOULD: > > > -- > Users or applications who wish to avoid problems with applications or protocols that truncate tags or have limited storage SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguishing value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag compositi= on. See Section 4.1 (Choice of Language Tag). > -- > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com] > > Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=887=E6=97=A5 18:37 > > To: Mark Davis; Addison Phillips; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > I take back part of what I said. The Prefix is only required for extlang; > > it > > is (correctly) a SHOULD for variants. So we should mention both Prefi= x and > > Suppress-Script, but we still have to change the MUST to a SHOULD. Th= us > > the > > correction should be: > > > > > value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and > > > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. > > > > =3D> > > > > > value and SHOULD follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix w= ith > > variants and > > > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. > > > > =E2=80=8EMark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Addison Phillips" ; "LTRU Working Group" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 18:27 > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > > > some corrections. > > > > =E2=80=8EMark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Addison Phillips" ; "Mark Davis" > > ; "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 13:48 > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > > > > Results of all the suggested changes (I used 42 this time). > > > > > > ~Addison > > > > > > -- > > > 2.1.1 Length Considerations > > > > > > RFC 3066 [23] did not provide for an upper limit on the size of > > > language tags. > > > > > While the largest tag that could be generated from > > > language and region codes defined under RFC 3066 could not excee= d six > > > characters in length, much larger registered tags were not only > > > possible but were actually registered. > > > > =3D> While the largest tag that could be generated under RFC 3066 fro= m > > language and region codes alone could not exceed six characters in length, > > much larger registered tags could be and were registered, and private use > > tags could be arbitrarily long. > > [forgot private use] > > > > > > > > The ABNF and other guidelines in this document also do not impos= e a > > > fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a Language Tag (an= d > > > thus the upper bound on the size of a tag) and it is possible to > > > > > > > envision quite long and complex subtag sequences. The upper bou= nd on > > > generative subtag combinations has expanded and, depending on th= e > > > specific language, may require more characters to form a complet= e > > > tag. > > > > > > =3D> generate quite long and complex subtag sequences. Depending on t= he > > specific language, it may require more characters to form a complete tag. > > [there is no upper bound on generative subtag combinations.] > > > > > > > > In practice, most tags will not require substantially more > > > characters. This is partly because additional granularity in ta= gs > > > seldom adds useful distinguishing information and because longer= , > > > more granular tags interfere with the meaning, understanding, an= d > > > processing of language tags. The 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' > > > fields in the registry (see Section 3.1) limit the way in which > > > subtags may be combined to form meaningful, valid tags. For example, > > > variant subtags SHOULD be used only with the prefix specified i= n the > > > registry. > > > > > > Some applications and protocols must allocate fixed buffer sizes= or > > > otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a particular > > > application. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refuse > > > to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified > > > length. For an example, see [RFC 2231] [22]. Any such limitati= on > > > SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD incl= ude > > > the disposition of any longer tags (for example, whether an erro= r > > > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). This limi= t > > > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > > > permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided. A protocol that > > > > =3D> permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided, nor result = in an > > invalid tag. A protocol that > > [this is to handle the trailing singleton] > > > > > allows tags to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without givin= g any > > > indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm > > > by changing the meaning of tags in substantial ways. > > > > > Here is how the > > > 42-character length of the longest generated tag is derived: > > > > > > language =3D 3 > > > extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > > extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1= ") > > > extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) > > > script =3D 5 (must not be suppressed) > > > region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) > > > variant1 =3D 9 (must have language as a prefix) > > > variant2 =3D 9 (must have language-variant1 as a prefix) > > > > > > total =3D 42 characters > > > > > > Figure 2: Derivation of the Limit on Tag Length > > > > [delete above diagram. not needed] > > > > > > > > Since language tags may be truncated by an application or protoc= ol > > > that limits tag sizes, when choosing language tags users and > > > applications SHOULD avoid adding subtags that add no distinguish= ing > > > > > value and MUST follow fields in the registry (such as Prefix and > > > Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See Section 4.1. > > > > =3D> value and SHOULD follow the Suppress-Script field in the registr= y. > > [we CANNOT say MUST since the requirements for Suppress-Script are SHOULD. > > We don't HAVE to mention at all the Prefix, because conformance elsewhere > > requires it anyway!] > > > > > > > > Applications or protocols that must truncate a tag MUST do so by > > > progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" fr= om > > > the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for > > > the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character > > > subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For > > > example, when shortening the subtag sequence "en-a-abc-x-private= 1- > > > private2", the first truncation produces "en-a-abc-x-private1" a= nd > > > the second truncation produces "en-a-abc". > > > -- > > > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > > It is an architecture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 10:08:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg1EX-00036K-OV; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:08:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg1EW-00036F-CP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:08:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01133 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.28]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg1Zm-00051P-2T for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:30:39 -0400 Received: (qmail 56900 messnum 5764297 invoked from network[159.134.168.215/159-134-168-215.as1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 8 Jun 2005 14:08:13 -0000 Received: from 159-134-168-215.as1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO egt.ie) (159.134.168.215) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 56900) with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 14:08:13 -0000 Message-ID: <42A6FB32.D8B70427@egt.ie> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:05:37 +0100 From: Marion Gunn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05523@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <06c301c56c32$01515840$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA01133 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Perhaps better to drop MUST altogether, if it is still causing confusion, and stick to the old ISO regular pairing of SHALL (compliance language) and SHOULD (guidance language).=20 Stylistically and in defence of the Queen's English, may we please have the occasional 'having', 'truncating', 'following', 'adding' 'limiting', so as to break up the rat-tat-tat of that repetitive 'that...' in zillions of places such as msg below?:-) mg Scr=EDobh Mark Davis: >=20 > I disagree. MUST is compliance language. Instructions cannot use MUST i= f > they are just guidance to users who 'wish' something. And since the > instructions are NOT guaranteed to "avoid problems", that is even more = the > case. The text should be: >=20 > =3D> Users or applications who wish to avoid problems with applications= or > protocols that truncate tags or have limited storage should avoid addin= g > subtags that add no distinguishing value, and follow fields in the regi= stry > (such as Prefix and Suppress-Script) that limit subtag composition. See > Section 4.1 (Choice of Language Tag). --=20 Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an=20 Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 10:30:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg1Zl-0007LZ-2G; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:30:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg1Zi-0007LU-VC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:30:35 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03579 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dg1TE-0000Ii-CT for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:23:52 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-73.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:23:52 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-73.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:23:52 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:18:40 +0200 Organization: Lines: 28 Message-ID: <42A6FE40.C7C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <20050608131631.GE2780@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-73.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org John.Cowan wrote: > 830 actually is a macrogeographical region, though it's a > *small* macrogeographical region. It's not listed in the part with the macro-regions on their page, it's still where it always was. > Jersey and Guernsey actually don't share anything at all > except their Duke and their TV station. If that's also true for their languages we don't need 830 ;-> Let's just stick to the plan, whatever is true at "date B", in Doug's "48 hours", gets a number. If they moved 830 to "obsolete" don't list it, if they moved it to "macro-region" keep it, and if their Web site is still unclear toss a coin. > Sark and Alderney, like Herm, Jethou, Brecqhou, and Lihou, > are part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, so part of 831. Very vaguely I recall something special about Sark, asking Google, It was the "feudal" Constitution, fascinating pages. For those more interested in languages than in regions, they mention 'Sercquiaise' on the history page. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 10:46:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg1pK-00027d-Id; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:46:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg1pJ-00027Y-Q4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:46:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05133 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.144]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg2Aa-0005q0-10 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:08:41 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j58EkObi020862 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:24 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j58EkO3S233690 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:24 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j58EkO4Q020407 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:24 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-108-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.108.124]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j58EkLgo020277; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:22 -0400 Message-ID: <076901c56c38$d512bab0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: , "Frank Ellermann" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608131631.GE2780@NYCMJCOWA2> <42A6FE40.C7C@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:46:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e4.ny.us.ibm.com id j58EkObi020862 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I agree with Frank. We should just follow the policy that we set down. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Ellermann" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 07:18 Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > John.Cowan wrote: > > > 830 actually is a macrogeographical region, though it's a > > *small* macrogeographical region. > > It's not listed in the part with the macro-regions on their > page, it's still where it always was. > > > Jersey and Guernsey actually don't share anything at all > > except their Duke and their TV station. > > If that's also true for their languages we don't need 830 ;-> > > Let's just stick to the plan, whatever is true at "date B", > in Doug's "48 hours", gets a number. If they moved 830 to > "obsolete" don't list it, if they moved it to "macro-region" > keep it, and if their Web site is still unclear toss a coin. > > > Sark and Alderney, like Herm, Jethou, Brecqhou, and Lihou, > > are part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, so part of 831. > > Very vaguely I recall something special about Sark, asking > Google, It was the "feudal" > Constitution, fascinating pages. For those more interested > in languages than in regions, they mention 'Sercquiaise' on > the history page. > Bye, Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 12:04:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg32h-0002UX-Ey; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:04:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg32d-0002U0-0S for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:04:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12253 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg3Nq-000810-Dn for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:26:28 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:04:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Roles Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:04:03 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05770@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Roles Thread-Index: AcVsECrOLai8lPCbT+24jqTlbdv8AQAMslFQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2005 16:04:03.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[B11B6B60:01C56C43] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org For the record, I (wearing editor's hat) was tickling the co-chairs to = declare consensus on whatever the topic was and update our "friend" the = RT system. AFAIK, the editor can't declare what the WG consensus is on a = topic. ~Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?8? 2:44 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Roles >=20 > Randy Presuhn wrote: >=20 > > Declaring consensus is the job of a (co-)chair, not a > > (co-)editor, >=20 > Yes, and you also appoint editors, and pick drafts as official > WG drafts (at least for the -00 version), and maybe it's also > your job to tickle the AD if something's ready for "last call". >=20 > But you don't _edit_ - only the editors edit (later with the > help of the RfC editor). The IESG can add notes. AFAIK you > can't add notes or edit. Maybe you could appoint yourself as > editor, but that's an odd idea, it would skip a complete step > in the checks ad balances. >=20 > > This is the first time I've heard of one being modified > > after posting. >=20 > In their "48 hours" the authors can still fix typos. And the > RfC editor probably tries to catch formal problems, otherwise > they'd simply attach numbers and publish after approval, and > there would be almost no queue delay, let alone four months. >=20 > > No one likes to see significant changes in AUTH48, since they > > provide a potential source of errors and process end-runs. >=20 > In the case where I tried to find out what happened it was a > note to the RfC editor to remove a critical "NOT RECOMMENDED". > Now it's a complete chapter. And of course "NOT RECOMMENDED". >=20 > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 14:16:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg56M-0004Ze-Q7; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:16:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg56K-0004ZV-Pt; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:16:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22840; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg5Rb-0002hX-7p; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:38:29 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-152.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.152] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dg568-00070F-00; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:16:16 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c56c56$9a6ab980$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Disman" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:18:32 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Fw: An interesting sub-note for all of you using the xml tool for drafts X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Forwarded for your information if you plan on submitting i-ds and are using the xml2rfc tools. Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Malamud" > To: "Randall Stewart" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: An interesting sub-note for all of you using the xml tool fordrafts > > Randall's method works, or you can do what the readme suggests: > > > > see: > > http://xml.resource.org/authoring/draft-mrose-writing-rfcs.html#ipr > > Regards, > > Carl > > > > Dear all: > > > > I recently submitted a draft to the ietf repository and got > > this response... Note that the front of my document had > > " > > > > This document is an Internet-Draft and is subject to all provisions > > of Section 3 of RFC 3667. By submitting this Internet-Draft, each > > author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of > > which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of > > which he or she become aware will be disclosed, in accordance with > > RFC 3668. > > > > " > > > > as the very first paragraph.. .this was generated via the XML tool.. > > > > So, I guess the automated tool will no longer accept this statement > > with a reference to RFC 36668.... it has to be BCP 79... and the > > section number. > > > > So if you are planning to do the "rush to submit" at the last > > hour... and if you are using the xml tool.. be sure to save the > > wording below and manually edit it into place... that is what > > I have been doing this week to all the drafts I have been submitting.. > > > > If you don't .. you will have a rather funny surprise aka rejected > > draft... and that would not be fun if your a procrastanator :-0 > > > > R > > > > > > > > The Secretariat CANNOT process your Internet-Draft submission due to > > > following reason(s): > > > > > > * All Internet-Drafts must have on the first page an intellectual property > > > rights (IPR) statement that says: > > > > > > > > > By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents > > > that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he > > > or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of > > > which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in > > > accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Randall Stewart > > 803-345-0369 815-342-5222(cell) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf mailing list > > Ietf@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 16:22:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg73v-00036e-1M; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:22:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg73q-00034z-1v for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:22:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA11478 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg7P5-0008K0-W0 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:44:01 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58KKmhf000513; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:53:51 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'John.Cowan'" , Randy Presuhn Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:53:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org +1 Despite Mark's protests, lower bound for conformance to _this_ spec has to be a MUST for length (and Frank's right that 33 is the magic number - breaking all email and MIME bodies is not acceptable). And including the rationale for SHOULD of 63 (safest lower bound) is a good idea. One of the best ISO specs is any later version of the C Language with the clause-by-clause companion rationale (also done in later POSIX specs), because the _meaning_ of those apparently arbitrary numbers and constraints is manifest. Leaving out rationale is throwing away the value of a working group. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of John.Cowan > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:46 PM > To: Randy Presuhn > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). > This limit > > > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > > ... > > > > SHOULD -> MUST, otherwise there is no lower bound to what can claim > > to be a conformant implementation. > > +1. Otherwise I'm happy with Addison's latest. > > -- > Do NOT stray from the path! John Cowan > > --Gandalf http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 16:24:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg75q-0004ak-3D; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:24:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg75p-0004aY-M5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:24:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12530 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg7R9-0000EL-GW for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:46:07 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58KNYV0002119 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:42:00 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: ltru@ietf.org Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:41:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, It's pretty much best practice in RFCs to avoid entirely the use of lowercase 'must' or 'should' as some dubious distinction from conformance imperatives 'MUST' or 'SHOULD' (RFC 2119 terms). The lowercase term 'must' appeared 28 times and the lowercase term 'should' appeared 31 times in the latest Registry version . The uppercase term 'MUST' appeared 88 times and the uppercase term 'SHOULD' appeared 21 times. While I realize it would be a pain to disentangle, replace, and disambiguate these lowercase uses, this is low-hanging fruit for an IETF last call objection. And it would cause too much rewriting to be handled as directives to the RFC Editor, in all likelihood. Randy - do you have an opinion here? Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 16:24:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg75t-0004bd-AK; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:24:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg75s-0004bX-Qg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:24:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA12552 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg7RB-0000Ex-Vl for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:46:10 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58KNN0N001982; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:12:56 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry fra mework) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:12:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, Note that ISO 11179 (all six parts) are online and free from the ISO Publicly Available Standards page: http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/ (search for 11179 on that page and you'll find all six parts - some are quite large, so you'll need a faster connection than my modem) Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:13 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry > framework) > > > Hi - > > > From: "Randy Presuhn" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:07 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 > (metadata registry framework) > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > > In an off-list exchange, it was suggested that ISO 11179 should be > > > employed in the ltru registry definition. > ... > > As a technical contributor: > > >From what I've been able to glean from secondary sources > (I'm to cheap to > purchase this rather expensive multi-part specification) I > don't see how > ISO 11179 is really applicable to our work, and I've seen no > statement of > how applying it would increase our work's utility. > Consequently, I suggest > we reject this item. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 17:12:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg7qG-00061u-Ay; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:12:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg7qE-00061g-UH for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:12:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18205 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg8B4-00029e-0N for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:33:35 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:10:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:10:55 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05935@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Thread-Index: AcVsaESD/caj9l+6Q8uwOgzB49yvqAABeUIg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2005 21:10:56.0064 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F8EF400:01C56C6E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org That's an easy enough edit for me to just run through and make, pace any = thorny issues. In a random search, a number of the lowercase variety of = 'must' SHOULD actually be normative language. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > Sent: 2005?6?8? 8:42 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language >=20 > Hi, >=20 > It's pretty much best practice in RFCs to avoid entirely > the use of lowercase 'must' or 'should' as some dubious > distinction from conformance imperatives 'MUST' or 'SHOULD' > (RFC 2119 terms). >=20 > The lowercase term 'must' appeared 28 times and the lowercase > term 'should' appeared 31 times in the latest Registry version > . The uppercase term 'MUST' > appeared 88 times and the uppercase term 'SHOULD' appeared > 21 times. >=20 > While I realize it would be a pain to disentangle, replace, and > disambiguate these lowercase uses, this is low-hanging fruit for > an IETF last call objection. And it would cause too much > rewriting to be handled as directives to the RFC Editor, in > all likelihood. >=20 > Randy - do you have an opinion here? >=20 > Cheers, > - Ira >=20 >=20 > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 17:41:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg8Il-0003ns-Vy; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:41:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg8Ik-0003nn-Fo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:41:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19818 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg8db-0002tt-AC for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:03:03 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:40:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:40:35 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05955@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Thread-Index: AcVsZ9RkvG55GiEAT9mw2lD2t8mHrgAB1/WA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "John.Cowan" , "Randy Presuhn" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2005 21:40:36.0115 (UTC) FILETIME=[B48D2E30:01C56C72] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank's own email demonstrated that 42 doesn't break all email and MIME = bodies :-). It is ugly, but it doesn't *always* break. My concern about MUST on the length limitation is that there are = existing specs and implementations with a variety of limitations. The = magic number (no matter which you pick) will not be appropriate for all = applications or protocols. At least some will be less and many will be = close to 42. Therefore I think it might be best to say something like: --- When choosing a buffer limit, a length of at least 42 characters is = RECOMMENDED. If the limit must be less, it SHOULD be as large as = possible. A value less than 33 characters in length represents a = considerable impediment to interoperability, since relatively common = tags can approach or exceed this length. --- Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > Sent: 2005?6?7? 20:54 > To: 'John.Cowan'; Randy Presuhn > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) >=20 > +1 >=20 > Despite Mark's protests, lower bound for conformance to _this_ spec > has to be a MUST for length (and Frank's right that 33 is the magic > number - breaking all email and MIME bodies is not acceptable). >=20 > And including the rationale for SHOULD of 63 (safest lower bound) > is a good idea. One of the best ISO specs is any later version > of the C Language with the clause-by-clause companion rationale > (also done in later POSIX specs), because the _meaning_ of those > apparently arbitrary numbers and constraints is manifest. >=20 > Leaving out rationale is throwing away the value of a working group. >=20 > Cheers, > - Ira >=20 >=20 > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > > Behalf Of John.Cowan > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:46 PM > > To: Randy Presuhn > > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) > > > > > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > > > > value is generated or the language tag is truncated). > > This limit > > > > SHOULD be at least 42 characters in length. If truncation is > > > ... > > > > > > SHOULD -> MUST, otherwise there is no lower bound to what can = claim > > > to be a conformant implementation. > > > > +1. Otherwise I'm happy with Addison's latest. > > > > -- > > Do NOT stray from the path! John Cowan > > > > --Gandalf http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 18:33:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg978-0006po-ND; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:33:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg977-0006pj-QR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:33:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26016 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lakermmtao01.cox.net ([68.230.240.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg9Rv-0004zV-Vz for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:55:07 -0400 Received: from A31P ([68.100.55.187]) by lakermmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050608223226.PUOO11036.lakermmtao01.cox.net@A31P>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:32:26 -0400 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: "'McDonald, Ira'" , Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:32:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcVsaEnFhVQDrjnWQ8G/oYCKPy0lKQAEWM6w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20050608223226.PUOO11036.lakermmtao01.cox.net@A31P> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > -----Original Message----- > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 11:42 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > Hi, > > It's pretty much best practice in RFCs to avoid entirely the > use of lowercase 'must' or 'should' as some dubious > distinction from conformance imperatives 'MUST' or 'SHOULD' > (RFC 2119 terms). > > The lowercase term 'must' appeared 28 times and the lowercase > term 'should' appeared 31 times in the latest Registry > version . The uppercase term 'MUST' > appeared 88 times and the uppercase term 'SHOULD' appeared > 21 times. > > While I realize it would be a pain to disentangle, replace, > and disambiguate these lowercase uses, this is low-hanging > fruit for an IETF last call objection. And it would cause > too much rewriting to be handled as directives to the RFC > Editor, in all likelihood. > > Randy - do you have an opinion here? I do, and I'd prefer that the lower case forms NOT be used to avoid just the sort of potential confusion described above. The IESG doesn't seem to deal with it consistently, either, so it's best to avoid the issue completely if at all possible. -Scott- _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 08 18:36:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg99W-0007Ij-Ka; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:36:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dg99U-0007Ie-Tg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:36:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26317 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dg9UI-00059U-SX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:57:32 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58MZ1Bl011023; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:35:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Scott Hollenbeck'" , "McDonald, Ira" , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:35:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Scott, Thanks for your quick feedback. Addison already replied that he was willing to work through and replace or uppercase the pseudo-imperatives. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Hollenbeck [mailto:sah@428cobrajet.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:32 PM > To: 'McDonald, Ira'; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 11:42 AM > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > > Hi, > > > > It's pretty much best practice in RFCs to avoid entirely the > > use of lowercase 'must' or 'should' as some dubious > > distinction from conformance imperatives 'MUST' or 'SHOULD' > > (RFC 2119 terms). > > > > The lowercase term 'must' appeared 28 times and the lowercase > > term 'should' appeared 31 times in the latest Registry > > version . The uppercase > term 'MUST' > > appeared 88 times and the uppercase term 'SHOULD' appeared > > 21 times. > > > > While I realize it would be a pain to disentangle, replace, > > and disambiguate these lowercase uses, this is low-hanging > > fruit for an IETF last call objection. And it would cause > > too much rewriting to be handled as directives to the RFC > > Editor, in all likelihood. > > > > Randy - do you have an opinion here? > > I do, and I'd prefer that the lower case forms NOT be used to > avoid just the > sort of potential confusion described above. The IESG > doesn't seem to deal > with it consistently, either, so it's best to avoid the issue > completely if > at all possible. > > -Scott- > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 00:03:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgEGj-000738-Ry; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:03:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgEGi-000733-16 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:03:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25994 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgEba-0005WS-TX for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:25:24 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-241-229.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.241.229] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgEGB-00021P-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:03:15 -0400 Message-ID: <003c01c56ca8$9a921e60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:06:23 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "McDonald, Ira" > To: "'Randy Presuhn'" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:12 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) ... > Note that ISO 11179 (all six parts) are online and free from the ISO > Publicly Available Standards page: > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/ ... Thanks for the useful pointer. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 00:13:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgEQF-00006o-9b; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:13:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgEQD-00006j-P8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:13:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA26720 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgEl7-0005sN-R9 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:35:14 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-241-229.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.241.229] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgEPh-0004NH-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:13:05 -0400 Message-ID: <004101c56ca9$fc77a720$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:16:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "McDonald, Ira" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:41 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language ... > Randy - do you have an opinion here? ... In the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept", I don't mind a lowercase "should" or "must" when they would the most natural way of saying something. After all, the whole point of writing the words as "SHOULD" and "MUST" is to distinguish them as having their special standards-speak meanings. Having said that, I think that in keeping with the principle of being "conservative in what you send", it is good to avoid the lower-case ones as much as is practical. Since our AD has a preference, and the editors are willing, the choice is simple. :-) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 00:29:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgEfA-0002Tb-Aa; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:29:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgEf9-0002TW-Fr for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:29:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA28052 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgF03-0006XB-1m for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:50:40 -0400 Received: from h-68-164-241-229.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.241.229] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgEed-0007i6-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:28:31 -0400 Message-ID: <006501c56cac$2444f1c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05955@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:31:43 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - (as a technical contributor) > From: "Addison Phillips" ... > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 2:40 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Tag perversity text revised... (#944) ... > My concern about MUST on the length limitation is that there are existing specs > and implementations with a variety of limitations. The magic number (no matter > which you pick) will not be appropriate for all applications or protocols. At least > some will be less and many will be close to 42. Of course there are and will be apps and protocols that won't handle some reasonable language tags. The point is that we need to tell developers what they must AT LEAST support if they want interoperability. Yes, this may mean that tag X will survive protocol Y intact but not protocol Z. If we don't say what MUST be done for conformance, then all bets are off, no matter what we RECOMMEND. > Therefore I think it might be best to say something like: > > When choosing a buffer limit, This phrase gets too close to specifying an implementation, rather than a requirement, in my opinion. > a length of at least 42 characters is RECOMMENDED. > If the limit must be less, it SHOULD be as large as possible. This is remarkably toothless. (I'm with Ira in not liking this "must") > A value less than 33 characters in length represents a > considerable impediment to interoperability, since relatively > common tags can approach or exceed this length. ... If something is "a considerable impediment to interoperability", it's time to break out the "MUST NOT". Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 09:35:38 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgNC5-0007kW-UW; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:35:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgNC3-0007io-G6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:35:35 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA29842 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgMuc-0006fu-En for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:17:34 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-110.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.110]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:17:34 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-110.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:17:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:17:25 +0200 Organization: Lines: 29 Message-ID: <42A84165.53DE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05955@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-110.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Tag perversity text revised... (#944) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Frank's own email demonstrated that 42 doesn't break all > email and MIME bodies :-) You forgot to count: =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?Ta?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?g_?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-830-variant8-variant8?Q?pe?= ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5...50....5...60....5...70....567 77 was illegal. And I didn't use any real Q-encoded =D5 Euro, that would be 78. Of course the charset is rather obscure, but it's still what I use locally. > it doesn't *always* break. ACK. There might be worse registered charset names, checking: pc-multilingual-850+euro JIS_C6229-1984-hand-add csISO95JIS62291984handadd ebcdic-international-500+euro csEUCFixWidJapanese Extended_UNIX_Code_Fixed_Width_for_Japanese Now that must be a record, fortunately irrelevant for MIME ;-) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 09:42:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgNIi-0000qe-Ek; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:42:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgNIh-0000qS-A8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:42:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00616 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgNe9-0003ii-KE for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:04:38 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:42:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:42:11 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05AEB@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Thread-Index: AcVsqbgLxeZ6y/arRXKh4OCzDuV5/QATwD5w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 13:42:11.0810 (UTC) FILETIME=[09DD9420:01C56CF9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Some of the changes to normative language turn out to be natural (we = really meant to be normative). Other changes (to avoid using the = lowercase) required either an extensive rewrite or the need for word = substitution (silly). Should and must were relatively easy. "May" is downright impossible, = since that word can be used in more than one way... Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?8? 21:16 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "McDonald, Ira" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:41 AM > > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > ... > > Randy - do you have an opinion here? > ... >=20 > In the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept", I don't mind a > lowercase "should" or "must" when they would the most natural > way of saying something. After all, the whole point of writing > the words as "SHOULD" and "MUST" is to distinguish them as > having their special standards-speak meanings. >=20 > Having said that, I think that in keeping with the principle of being > "conservative in what you send", it is good to avoid the lower-case > ones as much as is practical. >=20 > Since our AD has a preference, and the editors are willing, the > choice is simple. :-) >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 11:01:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgOWr-0004DM-P4; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:01:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgOWp-0004Cq-RX for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:01:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09403 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgOsI-0007Vk-B6 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:23:19 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j59F0jIb017958; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:00:44 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , Randy Presuhn , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:00:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Addison, Then I guess you have your AD's clear direction to content with. I see nothing wrong with word substitution to avoid lowercase must (almost never needed) or should (a mere convention to use this verb). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:42 AM > To: Randy Presuhn; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > Some of the changes to normative language turn out to be > natural (we really meant to be normative). Other changes (to > avoid using the lowercase) required either an extensive > rewrite or the need for word substitution (silly). > > Should and must were relatively easy. "May" is downright > impossible, since that word can be used in more than one way... > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 2005?6?8? 21:16 > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > > Hi - > > > > > From: "McDonald, Ira" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:41 AM > > > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > ... > > > Randy - do you have an opinion here? > > ... > > > > In the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept", I don't mind a > > lowercase "should" or "must" when they would the most natural > > way of saying something. After all, the whole point of writing > > the words as "SHOULD" and "MUST" is to distinguish them as > > having their special standards-speak meanings. > > > > Having said that, I think that in keeping with the > principle of being > > "conservative in what you send", it is good to avoid the lower-case > > ones as much as is practical. > > > > Since our AD has a preference, and the editors are willing, the > > choice is simple. :-) > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 11:15:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgOkq-00076S-Br; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:15:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgOko-00076N-PR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:15:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10742 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliffie.verisignlabs.com ([65.201.175.9] helo=mail.verisignlabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgP6I-0007uE-RC for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:37:47 -0400 Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:216.168.239.87]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:15:25 -0400 id 005981A3.42A85D0D.000054AD From: "Scott Hollenbeck" To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:15:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcVtBF+I+8IoU4nbSrOQB2N+2Uq0GQAAIGMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b132cb3ed2d4be2017585bf6859e1ede Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org One of the reasons this gets confusing is because RFC 2119 is somewhat unspecific on the topic. It says this in the abstract: "These words are often capitalized." but it doesn't say anything about distinguishing the lower case forms from the upper case forms. In my mind, this leads to confusion when a document mixes the two forms. Is a "should" the same as a 2119 "SHOULD"? *I* think the intent is that they are to be interpreted in the same way, but I know that others believe that protocol directives need to be capitalized. They're certainly more obvious if capitalized. I believe it best to use one form consistently, even if that means using synonyms in places. -Scott- > -----Original Message----- > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:01 AM > To: 'Addison Phillips'; Randy Presuhn; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > Hi Addison, > > Then I guess you have your AD's clear direction to content with. > I see nothing wrong with word substitution to avoid lowercase > must (almost never needed) or should (a mere convention to use > this verb). > > Cheers, > - Ira > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:42 AM > > To: Randy Presuhn; ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > > > > Some of the changes to normative language turn out to be > > natural (we really meant to be normative). Other changes (to > > avoid using the lowercase) required either an extensive > > rewrite or the need for word substitution (silly). > > > > Should and must were relatively easy. "May" is downright > > impossible, since that word can be used in more than one way... > > > > Addison > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > > Sent: 2005?6?8? 21:16 > > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > > From: "McDonald, Ira" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:41 AM > > > > Subject: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language > > > ... > > > > Randy - do you have an opinion here? > > > ... > > > > > > In the spirit of "be liberal in what you accept", I don't mind a > > > lowercase "should" or "must" when they would the most natural > > > way of saying something. After all, the whole point of writing > > > the words as "SHOULD" and "MUST" is to distinguish them as > > > having their special standards-speak meanings. > > > > > > Having said that, I think that in keeping with the > > principle of being > > > "conservative in what you send", it is good to avoid the > lower-case > > > ones as much as is practical. > > > > > > Since our AD has a preference, and the editors are willing, the > > > choice is simple. :-) > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ltru mailing list > > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 13:06:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgQUJ-0000Gz-QC; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:06:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgQUI-0000Gu-1R for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:06:38 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA22969 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgQOK-0004lr-AZ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:00:28 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:00:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:00:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:01:01 +0200 Organization: Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A875CD.1075@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Scott Hollenbeck wrote: > RFC 2119 is somewhat unspecific on the topic. It says this > in the abstract: > "These words are often capitalized." > but it doesn't say anything about distinguishing the lower > case forms from the upper case forms. In my mind, this leads > to confusion when a document mixes the two forms. I'm not confused, lower case isn't a 2119 keyword. Or rather I _wasn't_ confused until Ira and you started. There are quite a lot of lower case "must", "required", and "should" in RFC 2119. You're not trying to overrule Bruce Lilly, or are you ? The last time it took you, Bill, Dave, Ned, and Brian. And then you still approved his informational RfC clearly saying "2234" instead of "2234bis". Gotcha... ;-) Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 13:37:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgQxt-0005fT-7j; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:37:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgQxr-0005fO-Lf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:37:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25270 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgRJL-0003I6-M2 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:59:24 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:36:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:36:54 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05C86@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Thread-Index: AcVtFdK59jHdRtZnRPWhfusC9mTb3wAA53Zw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 17:36:56.0587 (UTC) FILETIME=[D50BFDB0:01C56D19] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Nibbled to death by ducks. The word "may" has multiple uses in the English language and some of = them are clearly non-normative. These aren't capitalized in the draft. = Neither are uses of MUST and SHOULD in the introduction and in the = changes section (where there is a substantial informative block of = text). All of the normative language is now normalized in the editor's copy. I invite comments about errors and omissions. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?9? 10:01 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language >=20 > Scott Hollenbeck wrote: >=20 > > RFC 2119 is somewhat unspecific on the topic. It says this > > in the abstract: >=20 > > "These words are often capitalized." >=20 > > but it doesn't say anything about distinguishing the lower > > case forms from the upper case forms. In my mind, this leads > > to confusion when a document mixes the two forms. >=20 > I'm not confused, lower case isn't a 2119 keyword. Or rather I > _wasn't_ confused until Ira and you started. There are quite a > lot of lower case "must", "required", and "should" in RFC 2119. >=20 > You're not trying to overrule Bruce Lilly, or are you ? The > last time it took you, Bill, Dave, Ned, and Brian. And then > you still approved his informational RfC clearly saying "2234" > instead of "2234bis". Gotcha... ;-) > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 14:15:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgRW1-0003zm-Bi; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:12:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgRW0-0003zG-9A; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:12:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00260; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgRrU-0000pX-UE; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:34:42 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-188-156.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.188.156] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgRVp-0001TE-00; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:12:17 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c56d1f$37a98f00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Disman" Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:15:27 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Useful tool for i-d authors & editors X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - If you don't already use this tool, you should give it a try. http://ietf.levkowetz.com/tools/idnits/idnits.pyht Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 14:40:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgRwg-0000eJ-9u; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:40:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgRwf-0000e4-Rx for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:40:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02592 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgSIA-00029V-Gz for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:02:15 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-188-156.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.188.156] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgRwc-0002Na-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:39:58 -0400 Message-ID: <005401c56d23$16d70380$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05C86@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:42:51 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Frank Ellermann" ; > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:36 AM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language ... > All of the normative language is now normalized in the editor's copy. ... Since we're oh-so-close to being ready for working group last call, please submit it as an i-d. The secretariat has been quick to get things through, and we have lots of integers left. :-) Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 15:01:40 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSHc-0004z4-KA; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:01:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSHa-0004yz-NQ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:01:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04305 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgSd5-00035r-LQ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:23:53 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:01:20 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:01:19 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05D59@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Thread-Index: AcVtIspPZdYvB5eqQQyhpkIfY9UUQQAAFNoQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 19:01:20.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F909F40:01C56D25] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Okay. Done. NB> I have rewritten Section 2.1.1 some more and those changes went = along for the ride. If you're interesting in issue #944, you should go = read that section again and send comments (some innovations were gleaned = from the thread with Frank). Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?9? 11:43 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Frank Ellermann" ; > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:36 AM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language > ... > > All of the normative language is now normalized in the editor's = copy. > ... >=20 > Since we're oh-so-close to being ready for working group last call, > please submit it as an i-d. The secretariat has been quick to get > things through, and we have lots of integers left. :-) >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 15:03:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSJB-0005Lt-49; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:03:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSJ9-0005LU-9E; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:03:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04568; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgSeW-0003AY-7U; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:25:23 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:02:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C56D25.D7AF8E3B" Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:02:54 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05D5C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: LTRU Registry Draft 04 Thread-Index: AcVtJdVkQ+FYVMCATaKPdWEUsNLKtw== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 19:02:56.0600 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8A77D80:01C56D25] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32a024d90b27b48ca5561d595e86f3f6 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU Registry Draft 04 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56D25.D7AF8E3B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBFZGl0b3IsDQoNClBsZWFzZSBmaW5kIGF0dGFjaGVkIGluIHRleHQgZm9ybWF0IGRyYWZ0 LTA0IG9mICJkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtcmVnaXN0cnkiLg0KDQpCZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNCkFk ZGlzb24gKGZvciB0aGUgZWRpdG9ycykNCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQLiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXph dGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QsIFF1ZXN0IFNvZnR3YXJlDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnF1ZXN0LmNvbQ0KDQpD aGFpciwgVzNDIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIENvcmUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KaHR0cDov L3d3dy53My5vcmcvSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbA0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3Qg YSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLiANCg0K ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56D25.D7AF8E3B Content-Type: text/plain; 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([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSJw-0005XW-SD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:04:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04701 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgSfT-0003C2-1n for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:26:19 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:03:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:03:54 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05D61@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Thread-Index: AcVtIspPZdYvB5eqQQyhpkIfY9UUQQAAFNoQAACvHIA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 19:03:55.0444 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBBA5F40:01C56D25] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Also, I have started revising the corresponding section in the matching = draft and doing SAR on the normative text there as well. I will post = that when the edit is complete. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > Sent: 2005?6?9? 12:01 > To: Randy Presuhn; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language >=20 > Okay. Done. >=20 > NB> I have rewritten Section 2.1.1 some more and those changes went = along > for the ride. If you're interesting in issue #944, you should go read = that > section again and send comments (some innovations were gleaned from = the > thread with Frank). >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 2005?6?9? 11:43 > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language > > > > Hi - > > > > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > > To: "Frank Ellermann" ; > > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:36 AM > > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language > > ... > > > All of the normative language is now normalized in the editor's = copy. > > ... > > > > Since we're oh-so-close to being ready for working group last call, > > please submit it as an i-d. The secretariat has been quick to get > > things through, and we have lots of integers left. :-) > > > > Randy, ltru co-chair > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 15:20:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSa6-0000gW-2W; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:20:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgSa4-0000gI-8I for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:20:44 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06802 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgSUC-0002IX-QM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:14:40 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:14:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:14:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:16:00 +0200 Organization: Lines: 19 Message-ID: <42A89570.4667@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05C86@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > All of the normative language is now normalized in the > editor's copy. The -04 with date June 03 ? I'm not sure what Scott checks, but Bruce could note that "SHALL NOT" is defined but not used. I hope you're not trying to capitalize all "should", some are in examples, or all "must" (e.g. "special thanks MUST go to" etc. would be nonsense... ;-) And if they'd insist on it roll your own terminologoy, start with STRONGLY (for SHOULD), VERY REALLY (for MUST), FOO (for SHOULD NOT), and FOOBAR (for MUST NOT). "Informative" reference: RfC 3092, the etymology of "foo". Unfortunately it doesn't explain XYZZY (for MAY-be not). Bye. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 15:50:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgT2e-0006M5-NR; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:50:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgT2e-0006M0-0S for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:50:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09739 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgTO8-0005pO-1j for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:12:30 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-188-156.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.188.156] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgT2V-0006Xd-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:50:07 -0400 Message-ID: <002b01c56d2c$e3026220$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><007401c56bec$baaa3d20$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608131631.GE2780@NYCMJCOWA2><42A6FE40.C7C@xyzzy.claranet.de> <076901c56c38$d512bab0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:53:19 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor, I also agree with Frank and Mark. As a WG co-chair, I'd like to recommend that any AUTH48 changes to the initial registry should be posted to both this list and the ietf-languages list. Randy > From: "Mark Davis" > To: ; "Frank Ellermann" > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 7:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > > I agree with Frank. We should just follow the policy that we set down. > ?> Mark > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 07:18 > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > > John.Cowan wrote: > > > 830 actually is a macrogeographical region, though it's a > > *small* macrogeographical region. > > It's not listed in the part with the macro-regions on their > page, it's still where it always was. > > > Jersey and Guernsey actually don't share anything at all > > except their Duke and their TV station. > > If that's also true for their languages we don't need 830 ;-> > > Let's just stick to the plan, whatever is true at "date B", > in Doug's "48 hours", gets a number. If they moved 830 to > "obsolete" don't list it, if they moved it to "macro-region" > keep it, and if their Web site is still unclear toss a coin. > > > Sark and Alderney, like Herm, Jethou, Brecqhou, and Lihou, > > are part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, so part of 831. > > Very vaguely I recall something special about Sark, asking > Google, It was the "feudal" > Constitution, fascinating pages. For those more interested > in languages than in regions, they mention 'Sercquiaise' on > the history page. > Bye, Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 15:53:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgT64-0006xV-8g; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:53:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgT63-0006xQ-BK for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:53:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10277 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgTRZ-00061D-35 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:16:02 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-188-156.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.188.156] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DgT61-0007Um-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:53:45 -0400 Message-ID: <003401c56d2d$653d4fc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003c01c56ca8$9a921e60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1027] apply ISO 11179 (metadata registry framework) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:56:58 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Based on the discussion, I've marked this item "rejected". If you feel further discussion of this issue is needed, please include the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 16:32:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgThZ-0007UX-QG; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:32:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgThY-0007Ro-Cu for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:32:32 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17768 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgTbz-0005rQ-E8 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:26:47 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:26:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:26:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 22:25:50 +0200 Organization: Lines: 74 Message-ID: <42A8A5CE.1CA@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05D59@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] #944 in draft -04 (was: Confusing conformance language) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I have rewritten Section 2.1.1 some more and those changes > went along for the ride. If you're interesting in issue #944, > you should go read that section again and send comments Not new, but reading it again it still tickles me: You say... | a combined total length of up to six characters, much larger | registered tags were not only possible but were actually | registered. ...if this "much longer" stands for "almost 67% longer" it's true, but OTOH ten characters is not _that_ long, if it's the worst registered 3066bis tag. Here's a "normative" typo: | For example, see [RFC 2231] [23]. This protocol has no | explicit length limitation: In fact it is in part about bypassing some length limitations and introducing I18N in MIME parameters. In its second part it is about more I18N (= language tags) in MIME encoded words. | the language tag's length is limited by the length of other | header components (such as the charset's name) coupled with | the 78 character limit in [RFC 2822] NAK, the relevant limit for encoded words isn't the SHOULD "78" in RfC 2822, it is the "76" in RfC 2047: | An 'encoded-word' may not be more than 75 characters long, | including 'charset', 'encoding', 'encoded-text', and | delimiters. If it is desirable to encode more text than will | fit in an 'encoded-word' of 75 characters, multiple | 'encoded-word's (separated by CRLF SPACE) may be used. | While there is no limit to the length of a multiple-line | header field, each line of a header field that contains one | or more 'encoded-word's is limited to 76 characters. You could also say "75" with a reference to [RFC2047]. Please do not mention RfC 2822 and its SHOULD "78", this is another story, and it's unrelated to our "most perverse tag" problem. | Thus the "limit" might be 60 or more characters, but it could | potentially be quite small. =?utf-8*?B?9L+/vw==?= 1234567890123456789012 (22) The worst case for UTF-8 is 4 bytes F4 BF BF BF (u+10FFFF). I'm not sure about the B64 rules, but IIRC splitting is evil, and so we get 8 bytes 9L+/vw==. Total length for the worst case from SP up to ?= therefore 22, 76-22=54. For many Q-encoded US-ASCII characters it's only one byte resulting in an absolute _maximum_ of 76-15 = 61: =?utf-8*?Q?3?= 123456789012345 (15) And for the worst Q-encoded case it is 76-26=50. =?utf-8*?Q?=F4=BF=BF=BF?= 12345678901234567890123456 (26) Now that's a nice number needing no explicit justification, you could say: vv Thus the "limit" might be 50 or more characters, but it could potentially be quite small Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 17:15:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgUMv-0007zx-AU; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:15:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgUMt-0007xy-Pr for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:15:15 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20708 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgUHz-00056n-Qw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:10:12 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:10:11 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:10:11 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:11:12 +0200 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42A8B070.15CB@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BB05770@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Roles X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > the editor can't declare what the WG consensus is on a topic. Yes, I'm fascinated by the intrigues around SPF. One theory about the obscure "RfC editor note" was "the co-editor did it". That was wrong. But my theory "the RfC editor did it" (and actually asking them why they did this ;-) was even shoddier. As long as you and Mark pull in the same direction you won't have this problem with 3066bis. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 17:48:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgUt7-00079u-Ru; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:48:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgUt6-00074h-JI for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:48:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22680 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgVEY-0000fn-SC for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:10:44 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:48:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] #944 in draft -04 (was: Confusing conformance language) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB8439@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] #944 in draft -04 (was: Confusing conformance language) Thread-Index: AcVtMptgIJK/12jAQie5P7UWkiirZQACN6wg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 21:48:10.0615 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDDE2070:01C56D3C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank opined: >=20 > > I have rewritten Section 2.1.1 some more and those changes > > went along for the ride. If you're interesting in issue #944, > > you should go read that section again and send comments >=20 > Not new, but reading it again it still tickles me: You say... >=20 > | a combined total length of up to six characters, much larger > | registered tags were not only possible but were actually > | registered. >=20 > ...if this "much longer" stands for "almost 67% longer" it's > true, but OTOH ten characters is not _that_ long, if it's the > worst registered 3066bis tag. [Addison Phillips]=20 The longest is "cel-gaulish" (11 characters), so 83% longer. But, of = course, this is not "much" larger. It's only if Han Steenwijk had gone = forward with his plans that we would have a whopping great tag to point = to. >=20 > Here's a "normative" typo: [Addison Phillips]=20 >=20 > Total length for the worst case from SP up to ?=3D therefore 22, > 76-22=3D54. For many Q-encoded US-ASCII characters it's only > one byte resulting in an absolute _maximum_ of 76-15 =3D 61: >=20 > =3D?utf-8*?Q?3?=3D > 123456789012345 (15) >=20 > And for the worst Q-encoded case it is 76-26=3D50. I agreed with all the deleted stuff and this example. A couple of = points: 1. The Content-Language header has a limit of 60 (78-18). 2. The shortest charset alias I saw was two characters, so 76-12 =3D 64. 3. The longest charset permitted is 40, so it's 76-50 =3D 26, assuming = ASCII characters, 76-52 =3D 24 (single-byte), or 76-55 =3D 21 = (two-byte). >=20 > Now that's a nice number needing no explicit justification, you > could say: vv > Thus the "limit" might be 50 or more characters, but it could > potentially be quite small [Addison Phillips]=20 Draft-5 will use this locution. Thanks! Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 17:59:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgV3n-0000wW-5H; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:59:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgV3l-0000to-74 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:59:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23418 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgVPI-00016K-W4 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:21:49 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:59:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:59:23 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB8447@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language Thread-Index: AcVtKHI6PpvKUNQ2TReMR4J2gzAU8gAAxPww From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 21:59:24.0017 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F3F1E10:01C56D3E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dang. I made the change but must not have hit save that extra time = before xml2rfc'ing it. >=20 > I hope you're not trying to capitalize all "should", some are > in examples, or all "must" (e.g. "special thanks MUST go to" > etc. would be nonsense... ;-) No, I know better than that. I used search and replace manually, doing = manual edits as necessary. Some of these might have been wrong, of = course. > "Informative" reference: RfC 3092, the etymology of "foo". > Unfortunately it doesn't explain XYZZY (for MAY-be not). Bye. That's just about what xyzzy does. IIRC, a typical response to that = command is "nothing happens". But defining it probably requires your = IANA Considerations section to begin "You are in a twisty maze of = passages..." Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?9? 12:16 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Confusing conformance language >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > All of the normative language is now normalized in the > > editor's copy. >=20 > The -04 with date June 03 ? I'm not sure what Scott checks, > but Bruce could note that "SHALL NOT" is defined but not used. >=20 > I hope you're not trying to capitalize all "should", some are > in examples, or all "must" (e.g. "special thanks MUST go to" > etc. would be nonsense... ;-) >=20 > And if they'd insist on it roll your own terminologoy, start > with STRONGLY (for SHOULD), VERY REALLY (for MUST), FOO (for > SHOULD NOT), and FOOBAR (for MUST NOT). >=20 > "Informative" reference: RfC 3092, the etymology of "foo". > Unfortunately it doesn't explain XYZZY (for MAY-be not). Bye. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 09 20:03:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgWzm-0002No-T6; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:03:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgWzk-0002Ka-Vz; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:03:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA01684; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgXLD-00081A-Ee; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:25:45 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:03:11 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C56D4F.C920D626" Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:03:09 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB84A7@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: LTRU Matching Draft 02 Thread-Index: AcVtT8flZRAxymkvTmqvJQJHfRUSig== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2005 00:03:11.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[CA169A10:01C56D4F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cadb9ba0ba1c1ba4f99ac017158fabc3 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU Matching Draft 02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56D4F.C920D626 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBFZGl0b3IsDQoNClBsZWFzZSBmaW5kIGF0dGFjaGVkIERyYWZ0LTAyIG9mIGRyYWZ0LWll dGYtbHRydS1tYXRjaGluZy4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9i YWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cucXVlc3QuY29t DQoNCkNoYWlyLCBXM0MgSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gQ29yZSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQpo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9JbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsDQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlz IG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuIA0KDQoNCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56D4F.C920D626 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt" Content-Description: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:24:26 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA18530 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgazV-0006qa-D0 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:19:34 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:19:33 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:19:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:20:40 +0200 Organization: Lines: 41 Message-ID: <42A91517.64CA@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB8439@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: #944 in draft -04 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > The longest is "cel-gaulish" (11 characters), so 83% longer. Okay, 11 was the old record... > But, of course, this is not "much" larger. ...yes, that's the point, "much longer" sounds like "we're not changing anything important", and that's cowardly. > 1. The Content-Language header has a limit of 60 (78-18). RfC 3282, I forgot this one. For mail the SHOULD-limit is 77, 78-1 for the folding, the MUST-limit is near 998 and irrelevant for our problems. For a comma separated language list 78-2=76. For news it could be the same SHOULD-limit (still debated in USEFOR, maybe we drop it and go for 998) with your formula: Content-Language: en ....5...10....5... (18 up to SP, no folding in the first line) > The shortest charset alias I saw was two characters Yes, I looked only for the worst case, otherwise while I'm NO "Unicadet" I somehow still consider utf-8 as "normal" (that's one of the few cases where I disagree with my old "mozilla" ;-) > The longest charset permitted is 40 Really ? I only looked into the IANA registry, not in the RfC: Extended_UNIX_Code_Fixed_Width_for_Japanese ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5 Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese Okay, the latter has a decent EUC-JP preferred MIME alias, and the former is a DBCS. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 10 01:21:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dgbxi-0002sY-19; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:21:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dgbxg-0002rf-Do for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:21:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22679 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DgcJF-00075H-SV for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:44:02 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:21:26 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: #944 in draft -04 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:21:27 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB8516@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: #944 in draft -04 Thread-Index: AcVtdFTrT0WC8Zv4TQOT+zAexbGY4gAAtZ3g From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2005 05:21:26.0610 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FF1A320:01C56D7C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org >=20 > > The longest is "cel-gaulish" (11 characters), so 83% longer. >=20 > Okay, 11 was the old record... >=20 > > But, of course, this is not "much" larger. >=20 > ...yes, that's the point, "much longer" sounds like "we're not > changing anything important", and that's cowardly. [Addison Phillips]=20 I removed the word much. I had actually thought we had some longer items = in the registry. Eleven doesn't even challenge the 17 character maximum = of 8+8 generative RFC 3066 tags enshrined here and there. >=20 > > 1. The Content-Language header has a limit of 60 (78-18). >=20 > RfC 3282, I forgot this one. For mail the SHOULD-limit is 77, > 78-1 for the folding, the MUST-limit is near 998 and irrelevant > for our problems. For a comma separated language list 78-2=3D76. [Addison Phillips]=20 Content-Language and Accept-Language are of great importance on the Web = also. You might have problems having a long list in your Accept-Language = with 3066bis... >=20 > For news it could be the same SHOULD-limit (still debated in > USEFOR, maybe we drop it and go for 998) with your formula: >=20 > Content-Language: en > ....5...10....5... (18 up to SP, no folding in the first line) >=20 > > The shortest charset alias I saw was two characters >=20 > Yes, I looked only for the worst case, otherwise while I'm NO > "Unicadet" I somehow still consider utf-8 as "normal" (that's > one of the few cases where I disagree with my old "mozilla" ;-) I'm a card carrying Unicadet and I consider UTF-8 to be entirely normal. = Heck, I promulgate it as a default and often wish it were mandatory. It = isn't necessarily the worst case scenario (it is tied with GB18030... = and I'm not quite sure how it measures against some of the ISO-2022 = flavors: can the escape sequence be divided from the characters? How = about MBCS code pages?)... but that's all moot, really. >=20 > > The longest charset permitted is 40 >=20 > Really ? I only looked into the IANA registry, not in the RfC: Me too: there is a note right at the top of the registry that says the = maximum size is 40, which I (foolishly) relied on :-). >=20 > Extended_UNIX_Code_Fixed_Width_for_Japanese > ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5 > Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese >=20 > Okay, the latter has a decent EUC-JP preferred MIME alias, and > the former is a DBCS. In any case, the text we chose on this thread works fine: the limit may = be more than 50 characters and it may be far less than that too (there = might be *NO* room with a sufficiently perverse set of choices). Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 10 04:21:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dgelj-0000NB-2z; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:21:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dgele-0000Mn-Lw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:21:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23396 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dgf7E-0001JI-Me for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:43:50 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5A8Kv712915; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:20:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 0a71be72_d98a_11d9_87cd_0030482532aa_19094; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:31:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO00354B; 10 Jun 05 17:25:00 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 10 Jun 05 17:24:32 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.1) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG00354A; 10 Jun 05 17:24:29 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050610075303.077b2430@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:55:19 +0900 To: "Randy Presuhn" , From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Confusing conformance language In-Reply-To: <004101c56ca9$fc77a720$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> References: <004101c56ca9$fc77a720$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 13:16 05/06/09, Randy Presuhn wrote: >Having said that, I think that in keeping with the principle of being >"conservative in what you send", it is good to avoid the lower-case >ones as much as is practical. > >Since our AD has a preference, and the editors are willing, the >choice is simple. :-) Yes, and add to that the preference of this Co-Chair, who disagrees with our AD on how lower-case musts/shoulds are best interpreted (I think they are not the same as the upper-case ones), but very much agrees with him that they should be avoided at all costs. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 10 12:53:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgmlR-0008Ka-3Z; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:53:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgmlO-0008KV-AR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:53:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07897 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dgn74-000521-Ah for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:16:11 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5AGrHOO028927; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:53:17 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: #944 in draft -04 Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:53:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, The charset name limit of 40 is _only_ for the "cs..." Alias required for the MIBenum (numeric) value for the IANA Charset MIB. Here's the relevant quote from page 4 of RFC 2978: "All charsets MUST be assigned a name that provides a display string for the associated "MIBenum" value defined below. These "MIBenum" values are defined by and used in the Printer MIB [RFC-1759]. Such names MUST begin with the letters "cs" and MUST contain no more than 40 characters (including the "cs" prefix) chosen from from the printable subset of US-ASCII." The limit in the registry itself of all charset names to 40 characters has been there for years as a comment, so I suppose that's the rule that IANA _thinks_ they're enforcing (despite Frank's examples). Cheers, - Ira > > > > > The longest charset permitted is 40 > > > > Really ? I only looked into the IANA registry, not in the RfC: > > Me too: there is a note right at the top of the registry that > says the maximum size is 40, which I (foolishly) relied on :-). > > > > Extended_UNIX_Code_Fixed_Width_for_Japanese > > ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5 > > Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese > > > > Okay, the latter has a decent EUC-JP preferred MIME alias, and > > the former is a DBCS. > > In any case, the text we chose on this thread works fine: the > limit may be more than 50 characters and it may be far less > than that too (there might be *NO* room with a sufficiently > perverse set of choices). > > Addison > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 10 15:39:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgpLO-0004iP-GT; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgpLK-0004hS-Rv; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:02 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24951; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506101939.PAA24951@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:00 -0400 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Matching Language Identifiers Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2005-6-10 This document describes different mechanisms for comparing and matching the tags for the identification of languages defined by [RFC 3066bis] [1]. Possible algorithms for language negotiation and content selection are described. This document obsoletes portions of [RFC 3066] [19]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-10154559.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-10154559.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 10 15:39:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgpLZ-0004kM-9z; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DgpLV-0004j6-9F; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:13 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24993; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506101939.PAA24993@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:39:10 -0400 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt Pages : 63 Date : 2005-6-10 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-10154605.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-10154605.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 13:48:15 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhA5f-00062B-Dv; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:48:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhA5c-000612-Ce for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:48:13 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01990 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050611174739.WEIU8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:47:39 -0400 Message-ID: <005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:46:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> 830 actually is a macrogeographical region, though it's a >> *small* macrogeographical region. > > It's not listed in the part with the macro-regions on their > page, it's still where it always was. This is true. I don't fully agree that 830 is intended as a macro code, regardless of where UNSD put it. I suspect they would not have added it in the first place if they had already had 831 and 832. > Let's just stick to the plan, whatever is true at "date B", > in Doug's "48 hours", gets a number. If they moved 830 to > "obsolete" don't list it, if they moved it to "macro-region" > keep it, and if their Web site is still unclear toss a coin. Frank and Mark are right. We don't want to open ourselves up to charges of "cherry-picking" the codes we want to use and ignoring the rest. Ultimately we are driven by the rules. The presence of both 830 *and* 831 and 832, none of which was permissible under RFC 3066, is not likely to cause any great difficulty in the real world. But it SHOULD be noted that if we do allow 831 and 832 (and 833), and if Addison is correct, we CANNOT subsequently register GG and JE (and IM) if those codes are added to ISO 3166/MA, and make them the Preferred-Values for the numeric codes. I think there is a common assumption that we (or ietf-languages) would do that. UN codes are used when there is no ISO code, but they cannot be superseded by ISO codes that are added later. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 14:20:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAag-0004E8-JN; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:20:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAae-0004D2-4g for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:20:16 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03505 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhAW2-0000AS-CP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:15:30 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:15:30 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:15:30 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:16:25 +0200 Organization: Lines: 31 Message-ID: <42AB2A79.3CA2@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > The presence of both 830 *and* 831 and 832, none of which was > permissible under RFC 3066, is not likely to cause any great > difficulty in the real world. If they deprecate 830 too late we also deprecate it => ready. > But it SHOULD be noted that if we do allow 831 and 832 (and > 833), and if Addison is correct, we CANNOT subsequently > register GG and JE (and IM) if those codes are added to ISO > 3166/MA, and make them the Preferred-Values for the numeric > codes. I think there is a common assumption that we (or > ietf-languages) would do that. Not my assumption. I got the idea that 3066bis is a one-way street to UN numbers in slow motion. You (all here) didn't like my plan to do this fast (at date-B) and for all regions. As long as GG, IM, and JE still _can_ be listed a.s.a.p. it's no real problem if their Preferred-Value sticks to 831...833. > they cannot be superseded by ISO codes that are added later. Is there a "normal" procedure that the UN numbers are "always" changed first, and that 3166-1 follows suite later ? We could add some text to the draft allowing for this delay, avoiding premature registrations of unnecessary / redudant UN numbers. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 14:21:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAbt-0004Mw-EK; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:21:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAbr-0004Lh-U0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:21:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03585 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhAxl-0004iA-Sj for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:44:11 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhAbl-0007JC-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:21:25 -0400 Message-ID: <012a01c56eb2$d5feb240$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:24:41 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 10:46 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> 830 actually is a macrogeographical region, though it's a > >> *small* macrogeographical region. > > > > It's not listed in the part with the macro-regions on their > > page, it's still where it always was. > > This is true. I don't fully agree that 830 is intended as a macro code, > regardless of where UNSD put it. I suspect they would not have added it > in the first place if they had already had 831 and 832. > > > Let's just stick to the plan, whatever is true at "date B", > > in Doug's "48 hours", gets a number. If they moved 830 to > > "obsolete" don't list it, if they moved it to "macro-region" > > keep it, and if their Web site is still unclear toss a coin. > > Frank and Mark are right. We don't want to open ourselves up to charges > of "cherry-picking" the codes we want to use and ignoring the rest. > Ultimately we are driven by the rules. > > The presence of both 830 *and* 831 and 832, none of which was > permissible under RFC 3066, is not likely to cause any great difficulty > in the real world. > > But it SHOULD be noted that if we do allow 831 and 832 (and 833), and if > Addison is correct, we CANNOT subsequently register GG and JE (and IM) > if those codes are added to ISO 3166/MA, and make them the > Preferred-Values for the numeric codes. I think there is a common > assumption that we (or ietf-languages) would do that. UN codes are used > when there is no ISO code, but they cannot be superseded by ISO codes > that are added later. ... Ok, it sounds like we have a rough consensus to take no special action for Guernsey and Jersey, so I'll mark this item "rejected". Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 14:28:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAin-0005pM-0H; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:28:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAil-0005oW-31 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:28:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04243 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhB4f-0004s3-3l for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:51:18 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhAih-00018T-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:28:36 -0400 Message-ID: <013501c56eb3$d77b23a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42AB2A79.3CA2@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:31:53 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:16 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey ... > Is there a "normal" procedure that the UN numbers are "always" > changed first, and that 3166-1 follows suite later ? We could > add some text to the draft allowing for this delay, avoiding > premature registrations of unnecessary / redudant UN numbers. ... We're behind schedule, and need to wrap up this work. If you think registration of UN numbers in advance of letter codes is a real and important problem, PLEASE supply the text you want to add or change in the i-d. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 14:31:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAld-0006Rc-6J; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:31:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhAlb-0006RQ-C4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:31:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04472 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhB7V-0004vG-Md for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:54:14 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhAlZ-0001b5-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:31:33 -0400 Message-ID: <014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:34:51 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 2:14 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > I'd feel better about removing it if someone made a > > convincing case that retaining it would cause harm. > > I'd restart my questions why we don't have the UN numbers of > other "lost regions" like the old "DE" or the old "SK", and > the "rough consensus" is that thinking about these questions > could harm the mental health of some WG members... > > Seriously, adding deprecated numbers for "lost regions" now > is a can of worms. Let's add 831 + 832 and be done with it. ... I'm having trouble figuring out your comment. Are you arguing FOR or AGAINST removing region subtag 200? Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 15:42:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhBs3-0002MP-2d; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhBs1-0002Lh-4b for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:17 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA09738 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhBnV-0007uK-8Y for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:37:37 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:37:37 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:37:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:38:06 +0200 Organization: Lines: 52 Message-ID: <42AB3D9E.46C8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42AB2A79.3CA2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <013501c56eb3$d77b23a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > If you think registration of UN numbers in advance of letter > codes is a real and important problem, PLEASE supply the text > you want to add or change in the i-d. As I said _I_ don't consider it as a very important problem, assuming that it's really the normal procedure. But I recall that _others_ here like Ira might hate all unneccesary aliases. Hm, now that you ask me about some text I found a minor nit: | Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', | 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and | are guaranteed to be stable over time. In the hypothetical case TP -> TL, and TL changing its name again, we get TP -> TL and TL -> XX. Is that really necessary, why not just update TP -> XX in this case ? A very minor nit. | Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do | not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and | whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the | same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records | and their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to | them. That's apparently an error, let's say "ISO 3166, and UN M.49" instead of (only) "and ISO 3166". And where's the rule about a new code that does _not_ conflict with an existing code, but whose meaning _is_ the same as an existing subtag ? The TL -> XX in my example ? We should simply delete this part resulting in: Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type are entered into the IANA registry as new records and their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to them. Adding a statement about the "same meaning" case: If existing codes have the same meaning a Preferred-Value is added or updated to show the new code. UN M.49 codes are only added if no ISO 3166 code with the same meaning exists. In this form GG, IM, and JE would replace 831..833. This isn't what we think how it should work, something with my proposal is still wrong. But something in draft -04 is also still wrong. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 15:50:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhC0I-0003fu-By; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:50:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhC0G-0003fp-Rq for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:50:49 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10122 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhBvb-0000DM-Kb for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:45:59 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:45:59 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:45:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:49:21 +0200 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Are you arguing FOR or AGAINST removing region subtag 200? Let Doug remove it. But I'm worried about the TL -> XX bug, we discussed this for weeks, why is it still incorrect in -04 ? Could we please run a simulation, Doug plays tag reviewer, and we fire some registration requests (based on some hypothetical events like "TL" wants to be "XX", or the UN assigns 888 to "Somaliland" - a part of the former and now defunct "Somalia") Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 17:05:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDAK-0000EZ-Bq; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:05:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDAI-0000EU-FE for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:05:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16043 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhDWD-0002ek-Ki for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:27:55 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-tawny.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhDA4-0000fK-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:05:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c56ec9$b16204c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL><42AB2A79.3CA2@xyzzy.claranet.de><013501c56eb3$d77b23a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB3D9E.46C8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:08:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I've re-opened #1026, but please, let's work towards wrapping this up. Randy > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:38 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > If you think registration of UN numbers in advance of letter > > codes is a real and important problem, PLEASE supply the text > > you want to add or change in the i-d. > > As I said _I_ don't consider it as a very important problem, > assuming that it's really the normal procedure. But I recall > that _others_ here like Ira might hate all unneccesary aliases. > > Hm, now that you ask me about some text I found a minor nit: > > | Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', > | 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and > | are guaranteed to be stable over time. > > In the hypothetical case TP -> TL, and TL changing its name > again, we get TP -> TL and TL -> XX. Is that really necessary, > why not just update TP -> XX in this case ? A very minor nit. > > | Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do > | not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and > | whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the > | same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records > | and their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to > | them. > > That's apparently an error, let's say "ISO 3166, and UN M.49" > instead of (only) "and ISO 3166". > > And where's the rule about a new code that does _not_ conflict > with an existing code, but whose meaning _is_ the same as an > existing subtag ? The TL -> XX in my example ? We should > simply delete this part resulting in: > > Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 > that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated > type are entered into the IANA registry as new records and > their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to them. > > Adding a statement about the "same meaning" case: > > If existing codes have the same meaning a Preferred-Value is > added or updated to show the new code. UN M.49 codes are > only added if no ISO 3166 code with the same meaning exists. > > In this form GG, IM, and JE would replace 831..833. This isn't > what we think how it should work, something with my proposal is > still wrong. But something in draft -04 is also still wrong. > > Bye, Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 17:40:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDiU-0006GR-Ta; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:40:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDiT-0006GM-HY for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:40:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17734 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhE4P-0003ku-93 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:03:14 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhDiQ-0000Iy-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:40:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c56ece$a6ce8d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de><014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:43:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:49 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Are you arguing FOR or AGAINST removing region subtag 200? > > Let Doug remove it. But I'm worried about the TL -> XX bug, > we discussed this for weeks, why is it still incorrect in -04 ? Could you point me to the specific text that was proposed? The best way to ensure that an i-d addresses your concerns is to propose specific text. > Could we please run a simulation, Doug plays tag reviewer, and > we fire some registration requests (based on some hypothetical > events like "TL" wants to be "XX", or the UN assigns 888 to > "Somaliland" - a part of the former and now defunct "Somalia") ... This would go faster if you'd just list each of the scenarios where you think the outcome specified by the current i-d would be undesirable, and propose specific text to rectify the problem. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 17:43:40 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDlU-0006Zu-CO; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:43:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDlS-0006Zj-KS; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:43:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17936; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhE7P-0003yM-NW; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:06:19 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhDlR-0000y6-00; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:43:37 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c56ecf$17002be0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Disman" Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:46:46 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Note well. The deadline fast approacheth. Randy > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:00 PM > Subject: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France > > There are two (2) Internet-Draft cutoff dates for the 63rd > IETF Meeting in Paris, France: > > July 11th: Cutoff Date for Initial (i.e., version -00) > Internet-Draft Submissions > > All initial Internet-Drafts (version -00) must be submitted by Monday, > July 11th at 9:00 AM ET. As always, all initial submissions with a > filename beginning with "draft-ietf" must be approved by the > appropriate WG Chair before they can be processed or announced. The > Secretariat would appreciate receiving WG Chair approval by Tuesday, > July 5th at 9:00 AM ET. > > July 18th: Cutoff Date for Revised (i.e., version -01 and higher) > Internet-Draft Submissions > > All revised Internet-Drafts (version -01 and higher) must be submitted > by Monday, July 18th at 9:00 AM ET. > > Initial and revised Internet-Drafts received after their respective > cutoff dates will not be made available in the Internet-Drafts > directory or announced until on or after Monday, August 1st at 9:00 > AM ET, when Internet-Draft posting resumes. Please do not wait until > the last minute to submit. > > PLEASE NOTE THE CHANGE OF PROCEDURE: If you submit an initial or > revised Internet-Draft after their respective cutoff deadlines, then > your document will be retained and posted when Internet-Draft > processing resumes. You will no longer be required to resubmit the > document. > > Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. If you have any > questions or concerns, then please send a message to > internet-drafts@ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > FYI: The Internet-Draft cutoff dates as well as other significant dates > for the 63rd IETF Meeting can be found at http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_63.html. > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 17:58:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDzy-0000ls-Pv; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:58:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhDzw-0000lm-QT for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:58:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA18638 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhELq-0004fw-Ov for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:21:16 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5BLwFLU029211; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:58:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Frank Ellermann'" , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jers ey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:58:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > If you think registration of UN numbers in advance of letter > > codes is a real and important problem, PLEASE supply the text > > you want to add or change in the i-d. > > As I said _I_ don't consider it as a very important problem, > assuming that it's really the normal procedure. But I recall > that _others_ here like Ira might hate all unneccesary aliases. > > > Bye, Frank I have no objection to infrequent aliases to fix edge conditions. It's the many aliases for many registered subtags that I object to. A piece of software can perfectly well work around handfuls of aliases efficiently (especially if they don't appear real often). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 18:01:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhE2l-0001DM-U7; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:01:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhE2j-0001DE-KT; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:01:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18803; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhEOg-0004n7-L1; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:24:11 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5BM1IbS029251; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:01:18 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , LTRU Working Group , Disman Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63 rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:01:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, If the registry itself is to be submitted as an I-D (as requested by our AD), then _that_ initial I-D must be submitted by July 11. That means we need to stop messing with the field names and field definitions real soon now. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:47 PM > To: LTRU Working Group; Disman > Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates > for the 63rd > IETF Meeting in Paris, France > > > Hi - > > Note well. The deadline fast approacheth. > > Randy > > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:00 PM > > Subject: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the > 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France > > > > There are two (2) Internet-Draft cutoff dates for the 63rd > > IETF Meeting in Paris, France: > > > > July 11th: Cutoff Date for Initial (i.e., version -00) > > Internet-Draft Submissions > > > > All initial Internet-Drafts (version -00) must be submitted > by Monday, > > July 11th at 9:00 AM ET. As always, all initial submissions with a > > filename beginning with "draft-ietf" must be approved by the > > appropriate WG Chair before they can be processed or announced. The > > Secretariat would appreciate receiving WG Chair approval by Tuesday, > > July 5th at 9:00 AM ET. > > > > July 18th: Cutoff Date for Revised (i.e., version -01 and higher) > > Internet-Draft Submissions > > > > All revised Internet-Drafts (version -01 and higher) must > be submitted > > by Monday, July 18th at 9:00 AM ET. > > > > Initial and revised Internet-Drafts received after their respective > > cutoff dates will not be made available in the Internet-Drafts > > directory or announced until on or after Monday, August 1st at 9:00 > > AM ET, when Internet-Draft posting resumes. Please do not > wait until > > the last minute to submit. > > > > PLEASE NOTE THE CHANGE OF PROCEDURE: If you submit an initial or > > revised Internet-Draft after their respective cutoff deadlines, then > > your document will be retained and posted when Internet-Draft > > processing resumes. You will no longer be required to resubmit the > > document. > > > > Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. If you have any > > questions or concerns, then please send a message to > > internet-drafts@ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > FYI: The Internet-Draft cutoff dates as well as other > significant dates > > for the 63rd IETF Meeting can be found at > http://www.ietf.org/meetings/cutoff_dates_63.html. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IETF-Announce mailing list > > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 18:02:23 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhE3b-0001Mn-DQ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:02:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhE3a-0001Mi-Qn for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:02:22 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18892 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050611220151.IECH17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:01:51 -0400 Message-ID: <00b801c56ed1$0d2b7820$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:00:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id SAA18892 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> The presence of both 830 *and* 831 and 832, none of which was >> permissible under RFC 3066, is not likely to cause any great >> difficulty in the real world. > > If they deprecate 830 too late we also deprecate it =3D> ready. True. >> But it SHOULD be noted that if we do allow 831 and 832 (and >> 833), and if Addison is correct, we CANNOT subsequently >> register GG and JE (and IM) if those codes are added to ISO >> 3166/MA, and make them the Preferred-Values for the numeric >> codes. I think there is a common assumption that we (or >> ietf-languages) would do that. > > Not my assumption. I got the idea that 3066bis is a one-way > street to UN numbers in slow motion. I did not get that idea, unless by "slow motion" you mean hundreds and hundreds of years. The great pace of national change, fueled by the national self-determination of colonial holdings during the 20th century and the rise of nationalism during the 19th and 18th, has essentially concluded. Most nations on Earth -- probably 75% or more -- have attained more or less the same status they will continue to have for many, many years to come. Even the great changes of the 1990s -- the breakup of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, the reunification of Germany and Yemen -- affected fewer than 10% of the currently recognized nations. Minor changes in governmental structure will not materially affect the relevancy of ISO 3166; changes in name or other major changes are not likely to occur at the pace necessary to render ISO 3166 worthless for our purposes. I expect to be around in 50 years to see how well these predictions have held up. :-) > You (all here) didn't > like my plan to do this fast (at date-B) and for all regions. I did not. We have to stay backward compatible with RFC 3066, and that means sticking with alpha-2 region subtags. I will not argue this further. > As long as GG, IM, and JE still _can_ be listed a.s.a.p. it's > no real problem if their Preferred-Value sticks to 831...833. I don't believe they can be added if 831 through 833 already exist. Addison and Mark can confirm or deny this. >> they cannot be superseded by ISO codes that are added later. > > Is there a "normal" procedure that the UN numbers are "always" > changed first, and that 3166-1 follows suite later ? We could > add some text to the draft allowing for this delay, avoiding > premature registrations of unnecessary / redudant UN numbers. ISO 3166/MA states that they do not add a code for a country unless it appears in the UN list. This allows them to avoid the controversy of "defining" what is a country, while giving them authority to assign codes to the things the UN has defined as countries. This is as it should be. So yes, there is a procedure that UN coding comes before ISO. What ISO does not promise is that UN coding *will automatically* lead to ISO coding. So far it seems to have happened 100% of the time, even for =C3=85land, which is why I suggested waiting until ISO made a decision be= fore adding subtags for these entities. But many people have pointed out that we can't delay the draft indefinitely, waiting for ISO to make a decision. (They're not known for adhering to published schedules in doing so.) Later: > In the hypothetical case TP -> TL, and TL changing its name > again, we get TP -> TL and TL -> XX. Is that really necessary, > why not just update TP -> XX in this case ? A very minor nit. I would greatly prefer this, but it seems not to have met with much approval. > | Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do > | not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and > | whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the > | same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records > | and their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to > | them. > > That's apparently an error, let's say "ISO 3166, and UN M.49" > instead of (only) "and ISO 3166". No, that's on purpose. ISO alpha-2 codes are considered the standard form for region subtags, while UN M.49 numeric codes are considered a fallback in case the ISO approach causes problems (as with CS) or for the macrogeographical regions that are outside the scope of ISO 3166. UN codes and ISO 3166 codes do not supersede one another. > And where's the rule about a new code that does _not_ conflict > with an existing code, but whose meaning _is_ the same as an > existing subtag ? The TL -> XX in my example ? We should > simply delete this part resulting in: > > Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 > that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated > type are entered into the IANA registry as new records and > their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to them. If an ISO code does not conflict with an existing subtag, and has the same meaning as an existing subtag, aren't they the same code? I must be missing something here. Give me a example of what you mean. > Adding a statement about the "same meaning" case: > > If existing codes have the same meaning a Preferred-Value is > added or updated to show the new code. UN M.49 codes are > only added if no ISO 3166 code with the same meaning exists. > > In this form GG, IM, and JE would replace 831..833. I think I understand what you mean. It would have to be up to the WG to decide, at this very late stage, whether to change the policy in this way. > This isn't > what we think how it should work, something with my proposal is > still wrong. But something in draft -04 is also still wrong. Understandably, Randy will want something more concrete than this. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 18:09:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEAY-0002Q2-F9; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:09:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEAY-0002Px-0F for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:09:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA19730 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhEWT-00050G-Sq for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:32:15 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhEAT-000660-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:09:29 -0400 Message-ID: <00fe01c56ed2$b3fb3720$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:12:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "McDonald, Ira" > To: "'Randy Presuhn'" ; "LTRU Working Group" ; "Disman" > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:01 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France ... > If the registry itself is to be submitted as an I-D (as requested > by our AD), then _that_ initial I-D must be submitted by July 11. > That means we need to stop messing with the field names and field > definitions real soon now. ... Precisely. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 18:20:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEKz-0004JF-SY; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:20:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEKy-0004Hc-Tq for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:20:20 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20716 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050611221949.RXGJ13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:19:49 -0400 Message-ID: <00bf01c56ed3$8d32d200$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050611214137.PVK2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:18:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Ok, it sounds like we have a rough consensus to take no special action > for Guernsey and Jersey, so I'll mark this item "rejected". What does this mean? That we add the two numeric codes to the registry, or that we do not? To my mind, NOT adding them is what I would consider "special action." -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 18:50:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEnn-00012O-DM; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:50:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEnl-00012A-5O for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:50:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22282 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhF9h-00073H-Hc for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:12:46 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-189.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.189] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhEnh-0001XP-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:50:02 -0400 Message-ID: <000401c56ed8$5da03960$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050611214137.PVK2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <00bf01c56ed3$8d32d200$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:53:20 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:18 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Ok, it sounds like we have a rough consensus to take no special action > > for Guernsey and Jersey, so I'll mark this item "rejected". > > What does this mean? That we add the two numeric codes to the registry, > or that we do not? To my mind, NOT adding them is what I would consider > "special action." ... No changes required to the registry draft. The initial registry would have the numeric codes, since that's what would result in the absence of special rules, right? Rand _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 18:51:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEoz-0001GR-T7; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:51:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhEoy-0001ES-37 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:51:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22339 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhFAu-00074X-QU for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:14:02 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5BMp0dq003940; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:51:00 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:51:00 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Message-ID: <20050611225100.GD1888@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <20050608160907.TJNG13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005501c56ead$86d60e20$030aa8c0@DEWELL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell scripsit: > But it SHOULD be noted that if we do allow 831 and 832 (and 833), and if > Addison is correct, we CANNOT subsequently register GG and JE (and IM) > if those codes are added to ISO 3166/MA, and make them the > Preferred-Values for the numeric codes. I think there is a common > assumption that we (or ietf-languages) would do that. UN codes are used > when there is no ISO code, but they cannot be superseded by ISO codes > that are added later. Which means that since 3166/MA MUST NOT add anything new unless UNSD does first, and 3166/MA only acts if a national body asks it to, we/ietf-languages SHOULD refrain from adding any M.49 code until it's clear that 3166/MA isn't going to act. Hence ltru, which has a limited lifespan, SHOULD NOT add 831 or 832 or 833, and leave action up to ietf-languages. -- There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan may come to the Shire, it will not seem jcowan@reutershealth.com the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.reutershealth.com I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 19:09:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhF6b-0004hX-QF; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:09:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhF6Z-0004hS-Ux for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:09:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23059 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhFSV-0007fh-KK for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:32:13 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5BN9KkE004033 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:09:20 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:09:19 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20050611230919.GE1888@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Spelling errors in draft -04 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Here are the typos I found in the editor's draft of 2005-06-10. s/Derviation/Derivation s/Implementers/Implementors s/Prefered/Preferred s/Simlified/Simplified s/Thie/The s/implementers/implementors s/interefere/interfere s/requster/requester s/rsubtag/subtag s/variantions/variations s/warrents/warrants s/withdrawl/withdrawal -- But the next day there came no dawn, John Cowan and the Grey Company passed on into the jcowan@reutershealth.com darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were http://www.ccil.org/~cowan lost to mortal sight; but the Dead http://reutershealth.com followed them. --"The Passing of the Grey Company" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 19:30:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhFRA-0008I6-I8; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:30:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhFR8-0008Hy-9g for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:30:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23422 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhFn5-00008B-9o for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:53:28 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5BNUZWb004101; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:30:35 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:30:35 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Randy Presuhn Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Message-ID: <20050611233035.GH1888@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <42AB2A79.3CA2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <013501c56eb3$d77b23a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <013501c56eb3$d77b23a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > We're behind schedule, and need to wrap up this work. > If you think registration of UN numbers in advance of letter codes > is a real and important problem, PLEASE supply the text you want > to add or change in the i-d. Since no specific schedule is given for registering UN M.49 codes is present in the draft, I believe that no textual changes are needed. However, I believe that date B should be set *before* the entry of 831/832 into the registry. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com jcowan@reutershealth.com In might the Feanorians / that swore the unforgotten oath brought war into Arvernien / with burning and with broken troth. and Elwing from her fastness dim / then cast her in the waters wide, but like a mew was swiftly borne, / uplifted o'er the roaring tide. --the Earendillinwe _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 20:48:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhGel-00032a-6q; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:48:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhGej-000324-Lg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:48:54 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25737 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhGa2-0003G4-SV for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:44:02 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:44:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:44:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:38:33 +0200 Organization: Lines: 47 Message-ID: <42AB8409.51F7@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de><014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de> <000601c56ece$a6ce8d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] #1026 (was: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Could you point me to the specific text that was proposed? "Missing definition of conflict" was discussed in the thread > The best way to ensure that an i-d addresses your concerns > is to propose specific text. An agreement with the editors about the underlying issue is also okay, but obviously I forgot to check the outcome, sorry. Specific text proposed in my parallel message for #1026, see also >> Could we please run a simulation, Doug plays tag reviewer [...] > This would go faster if you'd just list each of the scenarios Now I did this, 1st scenario, let's assume TL manages to get a new code XX, what happens in the registry (after date-B) ? 2nd scenario, UN M.49 assigns number 888 to Somaliland. What happens in the registry ? Later ISO 3166-1 assigns code SX for the new Somaliland. What happens in the registry ? > where you think the outcome specified by the current i-d I'd expect that TL is deprecated with new Preferred-Value XX in the 1st scenario. And I proposed text that would allow to update Preferred-Value: TL (in the old TP record) to XX. In the 2nd scenario I expect 888 to be added. I proposed text that idetifies UN M.49 as input source. At the moment that's not the case in 2.2.4 number 3. points A..D, especially C. We would need a new case "region with a number but not in 3166-1". In 3.3 it's (as already proposed) the addition of "UN M.49" to "bullet 8". This is also my third (?) request to replace the bullet-lists by numbered lists if there are too many bullets. And finally in the 2nd scenario after 888 got SX I'd expect that SX is added to the registry. Preferred-Value: 888 isn't optimal, but waiting for the Duke of Normandy or whatever the problem with GG, IM, and JE might be is no option. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 20:57:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhGmy-0004Ey-7B; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:57:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhGmw-0004Et-P1 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:57:23 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26074 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhGiO-0003lf-N2 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:52:40 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:52:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:52:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:55:56 +0200 Organization: Lines: 7 Message-ID: <42AB881C.AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001301c56ecf$17002be0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: disman@dorothy.bmc.com Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Note well. The deadline fast approacheth. July 18, I expect the start of the "last call" next week, not in July. They can discuss the appeals in Paris. Bye. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 21:16:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhH5G-0007CO-Sa; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:16:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhH5F-0007AS-Js for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:16:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA26591 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhHR6-0002u3-6b for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:39:00 -0400 Received: from smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com (smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com [195.93.24.40]) by rly-ip04.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id RELAYIN10-b42ab8c9235; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:14:58 -0400 Received: from DEBHOME (ACCB92AE.ipt.aol.com [172.203.146.174]) by smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5C1FiDX003078 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:15:45 -0400 Message-Id: <200506120115.j5C1FiDX003078@smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com> From: "Debbie Garside" To: Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:16:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcVu6K6O7UDbB/NRQQSJAc4VRsS7qAAAMELg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <42AB8409.51F7@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-AOL-IP: 195.93.24.40 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Written Spoken Signed X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi All An issue has been raised on the IETF with regard to the principle of language tags for written, spoken (and signed) to be registered distinctly as opposed to an "umbrella" tag that was perhaps designed initially for written but is now being used to cover all. As the draft for ISO 639-6 currently supports separate tags for these - language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language - perhaps it would be prudent to incorporate some text and a mechanism within 3066bis to support the registering of such specific tags. Personally, I believe that in the future there will be a real need for differentiating between them; it can only enhance archival and retrieval processes. Kind regards Debbie Garside www.linguasphere.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 21:34:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhHMa-0001Kz-Q9; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:34:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhHMY-0001Ku-Vd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:34:11 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27152 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhHHz-0006iB-KN for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:29:27 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:29:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:29:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:31:22 +0200 Organization: Lines: 71 Message-ID: <42AB906A.69D2@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00b801c56ed1$0d2b7820$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > [...] > Nice. But I don't believe it. That Somaliland example is a real example. We saw it for Eritrea, we'll see it for Sudan, and I've no idea how many real countries might develop from the former Zaire. Or Nigeria. Or other mainly artificial conglomerats on this continent. Or elsewhere e.g. Indonesia. >> As long as GG, IM, and JE still _can_ be listed a.s.a.p. >> it's no real problem if their Preferred-Value sticks to >> 831...833. > I don't believe they can be added if 831 through 833 already > exist. Addison and Mark can confirm or deny this. No, they can fix their draft until it works for the real #1026 example before date-B and after date-B in any possible order of events. > ISO 3166/MA states that they do not add a code for a country > unless it appears in the UN list. This allows them to avoid > the controversy of "defining" what is a country Okay, so it is the normal procedure. Maybe that's why draft -04 is at it is, there's no "delay", UN numbers are just never listed unless it's a conflict. And why did we think that 830, 831. 832, 833 are listed ? Is the draft -04 correct, and we were just a bit dense ? Or do we only need a special rule for an ignorant Duke refusing to register Her private possessions with ISO 3166-1 ? > that's on purpose. ISO alpha-2 codes are considered the > standard form for region subtags, while UN M.49 numeric > codes are considered a fallback in case the ISO approach > causes problems (as with CS) Here we have a new problem, the igorant Duke, or ISO 3166-1 refusing to sanction their own provisional codes. This can't be true... :-( I don't trust them. Let's pick ccTLDs as source, or Mark's list, after he decided what to do with BDT, GMT, BST, etc. ;-) > UN codes and ISO 3166 codes do not supersede one another. Then ticket #1026 is *O* *P* *E* *N* I'd refuse to accept a draft where regions are lost because ISO and the UN play games. I don't trust them. > If an ISO code does not conflict with an existing subtag, > and has the same meaning as an existing subtag, aren't they > the same code? TL changing its name to XX. Of course XX != TL, so I'd expect that they are so decent to deprecate TL at the same time, OTOH I don't trust them. > Understandably, Randy will want something more concrete than > this. He will wait until it works in the worst cases ISO and the UN are in theory able to create. Fortunately they are willing to create these worst cases in practice while we are still at it, thanks to 831 and 832. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 21:49:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhHb6-0003Yr-3T; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:49:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhHb4-0003Ym-IC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:49:10 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27637 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050612014838.RYGH17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:48:38 -0400 Message-ID: <00ce01c56ef0$a88015a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050611214137.PVK2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:47:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Let Doug remove it. Let the WG remove it, with the chairs' declaration of consensus, and Doug will be happy to do the mechanical work. > But I'm worried about the TL -> XX bug, > we discussed this for weeks, why is it still incorrect in -04 ? The outcome of the discussion, IIRC, was that a given Preferred-Value field could be added exactly once, and not changed thereafter. If this was, in fact, the way the issue was resolved, then the draft is correct in reflecting that. > Could we please run a simulation, Doug plays tag reviewer, and > we fire some registration requests (based on some hypothetical > events like "TL" wants to be "XX", or the UN assigns 888 to > "Somaliland" - a part of the former and now defunct "Somalia") Sure. Example 1: Timor-Leste (TL), formerly East Timor (TP), decides to change its name again, this time to Timor-Est (forsaking "Portuguese-everywhere" for "German-everywhere"). ISO 3166 assigns the code element TE and withdraws TL. The UN code is unaffected. Registry details (chronological order, not alphabetical): Type: region Subtag: TP Description: East Timor Added: 2004-07-06 Preferred-Value: TL Deprecated: 2002-11-15 %% Type: region Subtag: TL Description: Timor-Leste Added: 2004-07-06 Preferred-Value: TE Deprecated: 2006-01-01 %% Type: region Subtag: TE Description: Timor-Est Added: 2006-01-01 Notice that TP points to TL, and TL points to TE. Thus, following the daisy chain, the true Preferred Value for TP should actually be TE, not TL. This is consistent with the passage in Section 3.1 that says, "The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry." However, it seems to contradict the passage in the same section that says, "Thie [sic] field 'Preferred-Value' contains a mapping between the record in which it appears and a tag or subtag which should be preferred when selected language tags." In fact, TE should be preferred, not TL. Example 2: Somaliland's claim to independence is recognized by the UN, which assigns it the code 888 (Frank's choice) and assigns 708 to the new, smaller Somalia (withdrawing 706). Some time after, ISO 3166 assigns the code element SP to Somaliland (not having had the good sense to use it in 2003 instead of CS). The remaining portion of Somalia retains SO. Registry details (chronological order, not alphabetical): Type: region Subtag: SO Description: Somalia Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: region Subtag: SP Description: Somaliland Added: 2006-01-01 Notice that there is no Preferred-Value involved. SP is a completely new ISO 3166 code, and even though the old SO now corresponds to a different UN numeric code (708 instead of 706), this is irrelevant to the process of adding new subtags because no new ISO 3166 code was created that conflicts with existing subtags. Notice also that a subtag for Somaliland is not added in response to the UN addition, but only when ISO adds their code. The way I read the draft, the rules for the initial registry (use whatever is in the core standards) differ from the rules for maintaining it (use UN codes only when stability requires it). It also implies that when the UN macro codes are changed, which just happened a few months ago, the registry is not changed to match. As a side note, the following text in Section 4.3 should be changed to refer to a valid example: "Example: The language tag "en-NH" (English as used in the New Hebrides) is not canonical because the 'NH' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'VU' (Vanuatu), although the tag "en-NH" maintains its validity." NH was invalidated when Date A was established. Yes, I know it's the 11th hour, but it should be quick and easy to replace this non-normative example. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 22:51:40 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIZY-0004XO-MD; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:51:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIZY-0004WU-1P for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:51:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA00076 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhIvW-0006Qa-BD for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:14:23 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhIZU-0005rf-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:51:36 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c56efa$1b9ed2c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de><014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de><000601c56ece$a6ce8d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB8409.51F7@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] #1026 (was: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:54:52 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Frank - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:38 PM > Subject: [Ltru] #1026 (was: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200) > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Could you point me to the specific text that was proposed? > > "Missing definition of conflict" was discussed in the thread > > > > The best way to ensure that an i-d addresses your concerns > > is to propose specific text. > > An agreement with the editors about the underlying issue is > also okay, but obviously I forgot to check the outcome, sorry. > > Specific text proposed in my parallel message for #1026, see > also ... Forgive me for being dense, but neither of those two messages says how it would address issue #900, the question of subtag 200. (I'm not arguing whether they do or they don't - they're just not explicit.) As a process geek with relatively little interest in language tagging, I have great sympathy for anyone trying to make sense of these stream-of-consciousness postings, and am baffled by your moving it into the thread for issue #1026, unless you're going to argue that there should be a common underlying principle. (If that's what you're doing, it would help me a lot if you'd actually say so, and then state what it is, and then claim that it addresses issues #foo, #bar, and #bas.) Otherwise, it's *really* hard for me to tell who is advocating what, further delaying closure. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:01:38 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIjB-0005q2-Vn; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:01:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIj9-0005pt-Rx for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:01:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00474 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhJ59-0006tM-ET for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:24:19 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhIj8-0007WP-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:01:34 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c56efb$804cf160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <001301c56ecf$17002be0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB881C.AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:04:51 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:55 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rdIETF Meeting in Paris, France > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Note well. The deadline fast approacheth. > > July 18, I expect the start of the "last call" next week, > not in July. They can discuss the appeals in Paris. Bye. ... Don't forget the matching draft, and the initial registry. Don't forget that after WG last call, we pass it to the IESG, and then have an IETF last call. The WG last call, at least, can generally be expected to result in some edits, and the IESG might request changes as well. IETF last call rarely results in changes, but "rarely" doesn't mean "never". Time is short, and we are behind schedule. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:07:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIoS-0006Wp-Mx; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:07:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIoR-0006Wk-DP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:07:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00680 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhJAP-0007Au-UW for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:29:47 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhIoO-0000my-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:07:00 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c56efc$43522cc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <200506120115.j5C1FiDX003078@smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:10:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - This has been assigned issue number [psg.com #1033] > From: "Debbie Garside" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:16 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Written Spoken Signed ... > An issue has been raised on the IETF with regard to the principle of > language tags for written, spoken (and signed) to be registered distinctly > as opposed to an "umbrella" tag that was perhaps designed initially for > written but is now being used to cover all. > > As the draft for ISO 639-6 currently supports separate tags for these - > language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language - perhaps it > would be prudent to incorporate some text and a mechanism within 3066bis to > support the registering of such specific tags. > > Personally, I believe that in the future there will be a real need for > differentiating between them; it can only enhance archival and retrieval > processes. ... Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:16:03 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIx9-00083n-ED; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:16:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhIx7-00083d-F9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:16:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00944 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhJJ7-0007NJ-0o for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:38:45 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhIx5-0002NM-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:15:59 -0400 Message-ID: <003301c56efd$84cf8160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00b801c56ed1$0d2b7820$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42AB906A.69D2@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:19:17 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:31 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey ... > > Understandably, Randy will want something more concrete than > > this. > > He will wait until it works in the worst cases ISO and the UN > are in theory able to create. Fortunately they are willing to > create these worst cases in practice while we are still at it, > thanks to 831 and 832. ... No, I will only wait until we get a rough consensus. Engineering means making tradeoffs. Perfection may be possible, but it's usually too expensive (in time, money or other resources) so I'll be happy once the WG gets its act together and gets rough agreement on something. If you guys can't come to a workable compromise quickly, the co-chairs could conceivably declare victory with whatever is in the draft. Let's finish this thing. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:26:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJ7S-0001Bc-Qj; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:26:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJ7Q-0001BX-LU for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:26:41 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01424 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhJ2r-0006KX-De for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:21:57 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:21:57 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:21:57 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:15:33 +0200 Organization: Lines: 113 Message-ID: <42ABA8D5.1FCD@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050611214137.PVK2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <00ce01c56ef0$a88015a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: >> Let Doug remove it. > Let the WG remove it, with the chairs' declaration of > consensus, and Doug will be happy to do the mechanical > work. Yeah, that's what I meant, IIRC nobody but Mark, John, you, and me ever discussed it, and I guess that Mark won't insist on the 200 if that means more than one additional second of discussions. Admittedly I forgot John's position about 200, and maybe Randy likes this odd code, so I can't guess where we are exactly in the "rough. Must be the 17th hole. ["frozen" Preferred-Value] > If this was, in fact, the way the issue was resolved, then > the draft is correct in reflecting that. Indirections over several hops make no sense from my POV, but as long as they finally arrive at the one and only actual sub- tag it's a minor issue. But I'd still like to see the article where that was declared to be the resolution, ticket number and Randy's stamp, maybe I only missed it => my problem. >> Could we please run a simulation, Doug plays tag reviewer [...] > Sure. [...] > Notice that TP points to TL, and TL points to TE. Okay, that works, modulo one unnecessary indirection from TP. And if they added XX forgetting to deprecate TL ? Apparently they do whatever pleases them, and whenever it pleases them. We're building on quicksand in the case of ISO 3166-1 codes. > it seems to contradict the passage in the same section that > says, "Thie [sic] field 'Preferred-Value' contains a mapping > between the record in which it appears and a tag or subtag > which should be preferred when selected language tags." In > fact, TE should be preferred, not TL. Okay, let Addison and Mark fix this in draft -05. We have 36 hours to make the cut-off for Monday's draft submissions. > Example 2: Somaliland's claim to independence is recognized > by the UN, which assigns it the code 888 (Frank's choice) > and assigns 708 to the new, smaller Somalia (withdrawing > 706). Nice, but I don't insist on the logical 708. We have seen for 830 => 831 + 882 vs. 830 + 831 + 832 that these UN assignments are not always logical. > Some time after, ISO 3166 assigns the code element SP to > Somaliland (not having had the good sense to use it in 2003 > instead of CS). The remaining portion of Somalia retains SO. > Type: region > Subtag: SO > Description: Somalia > Added: 2004-07-06 Okay (now 708, was 706, maybe you'd add a comment about this) > Type: region > Subtag: SP > Description: Somaliland > Added: 2006-01-01 Okay. That was "draft -04 as is". What about the period when 888 already existed, just say "no, you must wait for ISO 3166-1" to Debbie / Karen / Mark / Peter on the languages list ? In the worst case they wait forever, or have to submit a 3066ter ? > The way I read the draft, the rules for the initial registry > (use whatever is in the core standards) differ from the rules > for maintaining it (use UN codes only when stability requires > it). IMHO that's a dubious plan, as we have seen for 831...833. Or in this example 888. > It also implies that when the UN macro codes are changed, > which just happened a few months ago, the registry is not > changed to match. No problem from my POV. BTW, what was the resolution for the dubious 003 ? You still have it in "File-Date: 2005-06-05". > 4.3 should be changed to refer to a valid example: > "Example: The language tag "en-NH" (English as used in the > New Hebrides) is not canonical because the 'NH' subtag has > a canonical mapping to 'VU' (Vanuatu), although the tag > "en-NH" maintains its validity." Indeed. We've discussed this how often now, four times, about once per month since LTRU was established ? > it should be quick and easy to replace this non-normative > example. Mark fighted hard for date-A 1988 allowing to keep BU, so let's use BU -> MM instead of NH -> VU. Or ZR -> CD. Or YU -> CS. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:42:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJN9-0003S5-0R; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:42:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJN6-0003Rn-Px for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:42:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01996 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhJj6-0007yG-0v for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:05:37 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhJN0-0006sY-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:42:46 -0400 Message-ID: <004201c56f01$42a22460$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <200506120115.j5C1FiDX003078@smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com> <002401c56efc$43522cc0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:46:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - (as a technical contributor) > > From: "Debbie Garside" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:16 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Written Spoken Signed > ... > > An issue has been raised on the IETF with regard to the principle of > > language tags for written, spoken (and signed) to be registered distinctly > > as opposed to an "umbrella" tag that was perhaps designed initially for > > written but is now being used to cover all. > > > > As the draft for ISO 639-6 currently supports separate tags for these - > > language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language - perhaps it > > would be prudent to incorporate some text and a mechanism within 3066bis to > > support the registering of such specific tags. > > > > Personally, I believe that in the future there will be a real need for > > differentiating between them; it can only enhance archival and retrieval > > processes. ... I have some questions, from the perspective of matching. How would I specify: (1) I am willing to receive web content in Yiddish if it is spoken, or written with Latin script, but not signed or in its "suppressed" Hebrew script? (2) I am willing to receive web content written in Gothic (either its native script, or its "suppressed" latin script), but not spoken or signed? (3) I am willing to receive web content in German or any of its dialects if written, but only "standard Hochdeutsch" or "Mannemerisch" if spoken, and not at all if signed. I clearly understand the rationale for making the signed forms distinct, and why there is value to representing that in the language tag. It seems that the "spoken" form would, if we represent it at all in a language tag, be simplest if handled like just another script. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:52:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJWA-0004eE-Kx; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJW8-0004e8-TB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:13 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA02311 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhJRc-00080a-LX for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:47:32 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:47:32 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:47:32 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:50:44 +0200 Organization: Lines: 33 Message-ID: <42ABB114.6FCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de><014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de><000601c56ece$a6ce8d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB8409.51F7@xyzzy.claranet.de> <001201c56efa$1b9ed2c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: #1026 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Forgive me for being dense, but neither of those two messages > says how it would address issue #900, the question of subtag > 200. The #900 stuff is old. See subject, I was talking about #1026. For #900 you know that Doug and I want the 200 to be removed. I'm not sure what John, Mark, and you wanted to do about 200. > I have great sympathy for anyone trying to make sense of > these stream-of-consciousness postings, and am baffled by > your moving it into the thread for issue #1026, unless > you're going to argue that there should be a common > underlying principle. |>>> Are you arguing FOR or AGAINST removing region subtag 200? |>> Let Doug remove it. But I'm worried about the TL -> XX |>> bug, we discussed this for weeks, why is it still incorrect |>> in -04 ? |> Could you point me to the specific text that was proposed? |> The best way to ensure that an i-d addresses your concerns |> is to propose specific text. I only answered your question, and because I knew that your question and my answer don't belong to #900 I even changed the subject: #1026 (was: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200) Now I change it again stripping the old (was: ...) part. Bye. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 11 23:53:00 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJWu-0004ju-0s; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:53:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJWt-0004jn-0G for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA02340 for ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhJss-00087I-By for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:15:43 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5C3qlGr005118; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:47 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:52:47 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Message-ID: <20050612035246.GL1888@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <20050611214137.PVK2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <00ce01c56ef0$a88015a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42ABA8D5.1FCD@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42ABA8D5.1FCD@xyzzy.claranet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > Yeah, that's what I meant, IIRC nobody but Mark, John, you, > and me ever discussed it, and I guess that Mark won't insist > on the 200 if that means more than one additional second of > discussions. Admittedly I forgot John's position about 200, My position is that it should go. > Nice, but I don't insist on the logical 708. We have seen for > 830 => 831 + 882 vs. 830 + 831 + 832 that these UN assignments > are not always logical. 830 has never included the Isle of Man. -- First known example of political correctness: John Cowan After Nurhachi had united all the other http://www.reutershealth.com Jurchen tribes under the leadership of the http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Manchus, his successor Abahai (1592-1643) jcowan@reutershealth.com issued an order that the name Jurchen should --S. Robert Ramsey, be banned, and from then on, they were all The Languages of China to be called Manchus. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 00:07:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJki-0006l1-Oj; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:07:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJkg-0006kw-La for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:07:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02966 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhK6f-0000FQ-Pv for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:29:59 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhJkZ-0000dJ-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:07:07 -0400 Message-ID: <004701c56f04$a965caa0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de><014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de><000601c56ece$a6ce8d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42AB8409.51F7@xyzzy.claranet.de><001201c56efa$1b9ed2c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42ABB114.6FCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:10:25 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:50 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: #1026 ... > I only answered your question, and because I knew that your > question and my answer don't belong to #900 I even changed the > subject: #1026 (was: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200) My question was about issue #900, motivated by my inability to figure out what the messages you referred to had to do with that question. > Now I change it again stripping the old (was: ...) part. Bye. Here's where I think we are Frank and Doug want to remove region subtag 200 from the initial registry. John "weakly" supports removing it. So, I'll read this as a rough consensus to change the status of this item to "resolved", and Doug should ensure that this code is absent from the initial registry. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 00:13:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJqo-0007vR-Oo; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:13:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhJqn-0007vM-4O for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:13:33 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03227 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhJm0-00014i-3P for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:08:36 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:08:36 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:08:36 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:12:01 +0200 Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42ABB611.5CF@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00b801c56ed1$0d2b7820$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42AB906A.69D2@xyzzy.claranet.de> <003301c56efd$84cf8160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Let's finish this thing. What do you _expect_ if the 831 + 832 problem showed up after date-B ? Or the hypothetical new 888 ? Wait for ISO 3166-1 codes how long, forever ? That's what the draft -04 says now. Or just list 831 + 832 because they came before date-B, and in the case of 833 we're absolutely sure that it's old. Does it block a possible future GG + JE ? Does it also block a future IM ? Apparently that's what the draft -04 says. We really should get this right, and IMHO we can get it right today (2005-06-12 GMT). And I really like to hear what you'd _expect_ in these cases. On the new (private) "IETF golden rules" list they have it as the principle of the least surprise. I know it as "is there a high astonishment factor ?" plus "then don't implement it". Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 00:38:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhKFK-0002at-TT; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:38:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhKFI-0002Yg-Ar for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:38:52 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA04490 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhKAm-0002X2-TC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:34:12 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:34:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:34:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:37:54 +0200 Organization: Lines: 9 Message-ID: <42ABBC22.6AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050611214137.PVK2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <00ce01c56ef0$a88015a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42ABA8D5.1FCD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20050612035246.GL1888@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org John.Cowan wrote: >> We have seen for 830 => 831 + 882 vs. 830 + 831 + 832 that >> these UN assignments are not always logical. > 830 has never included the Isle of Man. Yes, IM is 833. Are we now all in a "last call" frenzy ? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 01:53:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhLPD-0004PQ-KK; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:53:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhLPC-0004PL-0O for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:53:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA07537 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhLlD-0004J7-2I for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:15:55 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-37-250.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.37.250] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhLP5-00028M-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:53:03 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c56f13$75b22c80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00b801c56ed1$0d2b7820$030aa8c0@DEWELL><42AB906A.69D2@xyzzy.claranet.de><003301c56efd$84cf8160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42ABB611.5CF@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:55:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Instead of a bunch of rhetorical questions, how about fleshing out a specific counter-proposal, if you think the current proposal is so intolerably bad? > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 9:12 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Let's finish this thing. > > What do you _expect_ if the 831 + 832 problem showed up after > date-B ? Or the hypothetical new 888 ? Wait for ISO 3166-1 > codes how long, forever ? That's what the draft -04 says now. > > Or just list 831 + 832 because they came before date-B, and in > the case of 833 we're absolutely sure that it's old. Does it > block a possible future GG + JE ? Does it also block a future > IM ? Apparently that's what the draft -04 says. > > We really should get this right, and IMHO we can get it right > today (2005-06-12 GMT). And I really like to hear what you'd > _expect_ in these cases. As long as the algorithms and registry data produce a single result for the question "how do I tag language X in its Jersey variety", I really don't care whether the resulting string contains dashes and digits or letters and in what proportion. > On the new (private) "IETF golden rules" list they have it as > the principle of the least surprise. I know it as "is there a > high astonishment factor ?" plus "then don't implement it". Prior to this WG I thought Guernsey was a kind of cow, and Jersey was near New York City. I'd still be astonished if my web browsey offered either for a language preference. :-) Seriously, if it did, I still wouldn't care whether the resulting tags were alpha, numeric, or mixed. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 02:12:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhLfv-0006gC-O8; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:10:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhLfu-0006fY-2W for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:10:26 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA18211 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050612060954.CYVC8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:09:54 -0400 Message-ID: <014401c56f14$a8412d80$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:04:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > No, I will only wait until we get a rough consensus. > Engineering means making tradeoffs. Perfection may > be possible, but it's usually too expensive (in time, money > or other resources) so I'll be happy once the WG gets its > act together and gets rough agreement on something. > If you guys can't come to a workable compromise quickly, > the co-chairs could conceivably declare victory with whatever > is in the draft. I am fine with either of these two choices: (a) include 831, 832, and 833 (all three) (b) exclude 831, 832, and 833 (all three) The only thing I am not fine with is treating 833 differently from 831 and 832 in some way. These three regions have a combined population of less than 240,000, and I have not seen any evidence that the use of any language in these places differs markedly from the use of the same language anywhere else. I don't think the draft should be held up due to disagreement on how to code these regions. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 02:45:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhMDe-0003aK-0e; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:45:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhMDc-0003aA-2k for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:45:16 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA08386 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050612064443.DZKK8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:44:43 -0400 Message-ID: <014901c56f1a$286270a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050612055420.KWBJ29532.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:44:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Here's where I think we are Frank and Doug want to remove region > subtag 200 from the initial registry. John "weakly" supports removing > it. So, I'll read this as a rough consensus to change the status of > this item to "resolved", and Doug should ensure that this code is > absent from the initial registry. I will do this, and when we reach an agreement on Guernsey and Jersey and Man, I will make those changes in the registry posted on my site (since the changes are reflected in tickets). And yes, I am starting work on the draft registry I-D. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 02:49:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhMHQ-0004Dd-0M; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:49:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhMHP-0004DY-Ff for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:49:11 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10016 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050612064839.ECWE8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 02:48:39 -0400 Message-ID: <014e01c56f1a$afe3c560$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050612055420.KWBJ29532.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > BTW, what was the resolution for the > dubious 003 ? You still have it in "File-Date: 2005-06-05". I thought the resolution was that it was not "dubious," as it reflects a different macrogeographical region from 021, and thus should be kept in the registry. Please don't tell me we need a ticket for this too. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 05:17:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhOad-0001J5-0o; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:17:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhOaa-0001Iz-UD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:17:09 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA19996 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhOVc-0002t3-LF for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:12:05 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:12:00 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:12:00 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:08:55 +0200 Organization: Lines: 99 Message-ID: <42ABFBA7.10E2@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00b801c56ed1$0d2b7820$030aa8c0@DEWELL><42AB906A.69D2@xyzzy.claranet.de><003301c56efd$84cf8160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42ABB611.5CF@xyzzy.claranet.de> <000601c56f13$75b22c80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Instead of a bunch of rhetorical questions, how about > fleshing out a specific counter-proposal, if you think > the current proposal is so intolerably bad? When I wrote "I really like to hear what you'd _expect_ in these cases" it was't meant as rhetorical question. Not one of them. I've already posted one proposal along the line of "just treat new UN numbers like new alpha-2 regions codes". But I'm not convinced that it really does what we'd want. Especially if it's normal that new numbers come first with an unclear delay before the corresponding new alpha-2 codes are assigned. > As long as the algorithms and registry data produce a > single result for the question "how do I tag language X > in its Jersey variety", I really don't care whether the > resulting string contains dashes and digits or letters > and in what proportion. Okay, in other words waiting forever for an alpha-2 code isn't what you want. We agree about this. And it's not how draft -04 works. > Prior to this WG I thought Guernsey was a kind of cow, and > Jersey was near New York City. I'd still be astonished if > my web browsey offered either for a language preference. :-) The 888 is not necessarily Somaliland. It could be Quebec, Kosovo, Montenegro, Basque, Tibet, California, or what else. And the reasons why it doesn't show up in ISO 3166-1 are not necessarily related to a Duke and her cows. Let's assume that my original proposal was a horrible idea, then we only need an emergency exit to list UN numbers without alpha-2 code after some time. So let's add a new clause D to 2.2.4 point 3: D. New UN numeric codes for countries without ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes can be added to the registry following the procedure specified in Section 3.3. The former clause D will be clause E after this insertion. It is really difficult to discuss 3.3 in any useful way with its very long bullet- and star-lists. I'm lost in this maze. | o Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', | 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and | are guaranteed to be stable over time. s /'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value'/and 'Deprecated'/ Add a new section: o Values in the field 'Preferred-Value' MUST be updated to reflect the most recent preferred value. Typically this would be the at least second change of a region code. [...] | o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do | not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type | and whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of | the same type are entered into the IANA registry as new | records and their value is canonical for the meaning | assigned to them. Remove "and their value is canonical for the meaning assigned to them". If there's no conflict and no alias it makes no sense to talk about "canonical" in this case. New section: Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and whose meaning is the same as an existing subtag of the same type are entered into the registry as new records and their value is added or updated as Preferred-Value in the corresponding old records. New section: Region codes assigned by UN M.49 that do not conflict with existing region subtags and whose meaning is not the same as an existing region subtag SHOULD NOT be entered into the registry as new records until ISO 3166-1 assigned a corresponding region code. In that case and if there's no conflict (see above) the ISO 3166-1 code will be added. In the case of a conflict (see below) the UN M.49 number will be added. If ISO 3166-1 does not assign a code for a region with an UN M.49 number over at least one year the tag reviewer MAY add the UN M.49 number following the procedures outlined in section 3.4. Or in other words 831 + 832 + 833 one year after date-B. Bye. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 05:35:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhOs7-0003yQ-T6; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:35:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhOs6-0003yL-2z for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:35:14 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA20908 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhOnA-0004L3-Nu for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:30:08 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:30:08 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:30:08 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:33:51 +0200 Organization: Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42AC017F.F23@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050612055420.KWBJ29532.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <014e01c56f1a$afe3c560$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Please don't tell me we need a ticket for this too. If 003 is listed as "macro-geographical number" on their page we need no ticket, it's then simply correct. The last time I looked at their page that wasn't the case. IIRC you (?) intended to ask them what this footnote is supposed to mean, Web page typo or historic. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 09:31:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhSYW-0003v0-VW; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:31:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhSYW-0003uv-FM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:31:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA04892 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.8]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhSuW-0001wl-Of for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:54:06 -0400 Received: from smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com (smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com [195.93.24.100]) by rly-ip04.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id RELAYIN8-942ac38d82ea; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:30:00 -0400 Received: from DEBHOME (ACCB92AE.ipt.aol.com [172.203.146.174]) by smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5CDUmBT009074; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:30:49 -0400 Message-Id: <200506121330.j5CDUmBT009074@smtp-los02.proxy.aol.com> From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:31:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcVvAN0YEmepaJaySGSuKonHNyrO0QATZBpg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <004201c56f01$42a22460$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-AOL-IP: 195.93.24.100 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > I have some questions, from the perspective of matching. How would I > specify: > (1) I am willing to receive web content in Yiddish if it is spoken, or > written > with Latin script, but not signed or in its "suppressed" Hebrew script? Each linguistic entity has its own 4alpha representation, as well as its parent 4alpha representation. In addition, each entity has a level code which designates "Language" "Written Language" "Spoken Language" "Signed Language". Therefore, you can search for the two relevant 4alpha representations. There would be no suppressed script; Yiddish in Hebrew script would also have a 4alpha representation which can be included or excluded from your search. > (2) I am willing to receive web content written in Gothic (either its > native > script, or its "suppressed" latin script), but not spoken or signed? Again, search for the correct 4alpha representations. > (3) I am willing to receive web content in German or any of its dialects > if > written, but only "standard Hochdeutsch" or "Mannemerisch" if spoken, and > not > at all if signed. For this next one I hope I have understood you correctly... please remember I am not a linguist :-) Slightly different, in this case you would choose the 4alpha representation for written_German and all children (remember the parent 4alpha representation is available for each entity) but NOT "written_standard Hochdeutsch" and NOT "written_Mannemerisch" (if I undertand you correctly). You would also include the 4alpha representations for spoken "standard Hochdeutsch" and "Mannemerisch" in your query. Signed would not be returned unless you asked for it specifically or at language level (umbrella). Regards Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 12 June 2005 04:46 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed > > Hi - > > (as a technical contributor) > > > > From: "Debbie Garside" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:16 PM > > > Subject: [Ltru] Written Spoken Signed > > ... > > > An issue has been raised on the IETF with regard to the principle of > > > language tags for written, spoken (and signed) to be registered > distinctly > > > as opposed to an "umbrella" tag that was perhaps designed initially > for > > > written but is now being used to cover all. > > > > > > As the draft for ISO 639-6 currently supports separate tags for these > - > > > language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language - perhaps > it > > > would be prudent to incorporate some text and a mechanism within > 3066bis to > > > support the registering of such specific tags. > > > > > > Personally, I believe that in the future there will be a real need for > > > differentiating between them; it can only enhance archival and > retrieval > > > processes. > ... > > I have some questions, from the perspective of matching. How would I > specify: > (1) I am willing to receive web content in Yiddish if it is spoken, or > written > with Latin script, but not signed or in its "suppressed" Hebrew script? > (2) I am willing to receive web content written in Gothic (either its > native > script, or its "suppressed" latin script), but not spoken or signed? > (3) I am willing to receive web content in German or any of its dialects > if > written, but only "standard Hochdeutsch" or "Mannemerisch" if spoken, and > not > at all if signed. > > I clearly understand the rationale for making the signed forms distinct, > and > why there is value to representing that in the language tag. It seems > that > the "spoken" form would, if we represent it at all in a language tag, be > simplest > if handled like just another script. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 13:14:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhW2e-0001EV-Kk; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:14:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhW2d-0001EQ-UF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:14:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20086 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhWOj-0002rg-VI for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:37:27 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5CHEEkY005881 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:14:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: ltru@ietf.org Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:14:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, Many people may have seen this note from Tex Texin to the IETF Languages list, but I cross-post it here, because it points out a fundamental IETF last call vulnerability for the Language Subtag Registry, to whit, that the _entire_ justification for shoehorning 'script' between 'language' and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on traditional uses of language tags for _written_ content. The entire (unloved) "Suppress-Script" stuff attempts to minimize the damage in the real world (now and in the indefinite future) of the 'script' interloper. A much cleaner solution remains to push 'script' back where it belongs in medium-neutral language tags --> after the 'region' code. And I think that bending 'script' to include spoken (as Randy speculated somewhere recently?) is just awful. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Tex Texin Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:44 PM To: Michael Everson Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org Subject: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken Michael Everson wrote: > The tags with we are concerned assume some sort of orthography. Well, the tendency has been to associate tags with writing since so much of computer content is written, and so it is mostly written material that software developers tag. However, rfc 3066 says: "The language tag always defines a language as spoken (or written, signed or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of information to other human beings." so orthography is not a requirement and in fact, this tendency to (incorrectly I believe) presume writing, is one of the reasons I objected to "script" being placed between language and region in 3066bis. As we tag more multimedia, the emphasis on writing is falsely placed. Unless we want to have a separate tagging system for audio... tex _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 13:46:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhWXc-0006CS-B1; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:46:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhWXb-0006CI-Hw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:46:35 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23175 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050612174603.BRTI8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:46:03 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c56f76$8c748e00$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:45:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Macrogeographical code 003 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hello, I am writing on behalf of the Language Tag Registry Update (LTRU) project, which is a Working Group of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF). We are working on a major update to RFC 3066, "Tags for the Identification of Languages," a widely used protocol on the Internet and elsewhere. RFC 3066 is probably best known for specifying how ISO 639 language codes and ISO 3166 country codes can be used together to represent "language X as used in country Y." One of our proposed enhancements to RFC 3066 is to allow the use of what we are calling "UN M.49 numeric codes" for macrogeographical regions, such as 015 for "Northern Africa," and also to use the regular numeric single-country codes to resolve conflicts in case an ISO 3166 code is reused in the future with a different meaning (as happened in 2003 with CS). Our question concerns the macrogeographical code 003, "North America." This is listed on [1], but only as a footnote to explain how it differs from 021, "Northern America," which is on the normal list with all the other codes. We understand the difference in scope between 003 and 021, but we are not sure if 003 should be included in our list, since it is only a footnote. What is the status of this code as far as UNSD is concerned? You can find out more about the LTRU project at [2] and read the archives of our mailing list at [3]. Thank you very much for your prompt assistance. [1] http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm [2] http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html [3] http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/index.html -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 17:05:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhZeU-0002RC-D2; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:05:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhZeQ-0002R4-O1 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:05:53 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10964 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhZZT-0006BX-31 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:00:43 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.77 ([62.80.58.77]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:00:42 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.77 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:00:42 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:00:03 +0200 Organization: Lines: 60 Message-ID: <42ACA253.4BB7@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.77 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org McDonald, Ira wrote: > Many people may have seen this note from Tex Texin to the > IETF Languages list Yes. > the _entire_ justification for shoehorning 'script' between > 'language' and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on > traditional uses of language tags for _written_ content. No, I don't think that that's a correct description of the "entire justification", it meshes two independet aspects. For written content we need the script, only the language is not good enough. So we either need something like Bruce's Content-Script, or where that's no option we try to add it to the existing language tag. If we do the latter we could add it in theory everywhere, in position 1, 2, 3, or at the end of a language tag. Each way has its advantages and disadvantages wrt matching and backwards compatibility. E.g. if we'd add the script in the first position it's guaranteed to be incompatible with all 3066-applications, that might actually be a good thing. If we decide to add it elsewhere I fail to see any advantage of the 3rd position (between region and variant). So we take either the last or the 2nd position. If we assume that LTR matching and RTL truncation is the most natural way to process tags, the 2nd position is probably the best choice (in relation to 3rd / last position). From my POV it's not necessarily better than the other ideas, 1st position or no script at all in language tags. > A much cleaner solution remains to push 'script' back where > it belongs in medium-neutral language tags --> after the > 'region' code. That's the 3rd or last position, I don't see any advantage of the 3rd position, en-Latn-US-boont or en-US-Latn-boont are both ugly. Maybe en-US-boont-Latn would be a good idea. But actually the region codes were already a dubious idea. If I could just start from scratch I'd kill them - if the region is important register it as variant. A less radical idea would be "either region or variant, but never both at the same time". Then we'd probably discuss a language-( region / variant )-script scheme. My point is, the new "unloved script" isn't the real problem. The real problem is the legacy region. And we're damned to keep it - without looking into the LTRU charter I fear that's what it says. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 17:57:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhaSG-0001Tr-7u; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:57:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhaSE-0001RT-DI for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:57:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13380 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhaoL-0006be-2p for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:20:12 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CLurmD655208 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:56:53 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5CLurcW099826 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:56:53 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5CLurWU009433 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:56:53 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-116-62.mts.ibm.com [9.48.116.62]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5CLupcL009421; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:56:52 -0600 Message-ID: <018101c56f99$a3651f80$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: , "Frank Ellermann" References: <20050608045025.GJHD11914.mta3.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><005b01c56be7$6c436260$030aa8c0@DEWELL><20050608051611.GD2780@NYCMJCOWA2><000a01c56bed$2cc29ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42A6B6DC.496F@xyzzy.claranet.de><014001c56eb4$416c1c60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42AB4041.1A13@xyzzy.claranet.de><000601c56ece$a6ce8d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer><42AB8409.51F7@xyzzy.claranet.de><001201c56efa$1b9ed2c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42ABB114.6FCC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: #1026 Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:56:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e33.co.us.ibm.com id j5CLurmD655208 X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I don't care about having in 200. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Ellermann" To: Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 20:50 Subject: [Ltru] Re: #1026 > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Forgive me for being dense, but neither of those two messages > > says how it would address issue #900, the question of subtag > > 200. > > The #900 stuff is old. See subject, I was talking about #1026. > > For #900 you know that Doug and I want the 200 to be removed. > I'm not sure what John, Mark, and you wanted to do about 200. > > > I have great sympathy for anyone trying to make sense of > > these stream-of-consciousness postings, and am baffled by > > your moving it into the thread for issue #1026, unless > > you're going to argue that there should be a common > > underlying principle. > > |>>> Are you arguing FOR or AGAINST removing region subtag 200? > > |>> Let Doug remove it. But I'm worried about the TL -> XX > |>> bug, we discussed this for weeks, why is it still incorrect > |>> in -04 ? > > |> Could you point me to the specific text that was proposed? > |> The best way to ensure that an i-d addresses your concerns > |> is to propose specific text. > > I only answered your question, and because I knew that your > question and my answer don't belong to #900 I even changed the > subject: #1026 (was: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200) > > Now I change it again stripping the old (was: ...) part. Bye. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 18:02:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhaXa-0002L8-Rq; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:02:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhaXY-0002L3-H5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:02:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13921 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.132]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhati-0006qk-6B for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:25:42 -0400 Received: from westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.11]) by e34.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CM2c2h208424 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:02:38 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5CM2cNL233504 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:02:38 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5CM2cLG014821 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:02:38 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-116-62.mts.ibm.com [9.48.116.62]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5CM2apG014752; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:02:38 -0600 Message-ID: <01af01c56f9a$712c1bd0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "McDonald, Ira" , References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:02:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e34.co.us.ibm.com id j5CM2c2h208424 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 1. I'll forward a message I sent to the languages group. As far as I am concerned, we already have a tag for unwritten language contents, using Z= xxx as the script. 2. This is no reason whatsoever to rehash the long-settled issue of where= to have the script code. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "McDonald, Ira" To: Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:14 Subject: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german,spoken > Hi, > > Many people may have seen this note from Tex Texin to the > IETF Languages list, but I cross-post it here, because it > points out a fundamental IETF last call vulnerability for > the Language Subtag Registry, to whit, that the _entire_ > justification for shoehorning 'script' between 'language' > and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on traditional > uses of language tags for _written_ content. > > The entire (unloved) "Suppress-Script" stuff attempts to > minimize the damage in the real world (now and in the > indefinite future) of the 'script' interloper. > > A much cleaner solution remains to push 'script' back where > it belongs in medium-neutral language tags --> after the > 'region' code. > > And I think that bending 'script' to include spoken (as > Randy speculated somewhere recently?) is just awful. > > Cheers, > - Ira > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no > [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Tex Texin > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:44 PM > To: Michael Everson > Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org > Subject: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken > > > > > Michael Everson wrote: > > > The tags with we are concerned assume some sort of orthography. > > > > Well, the tendency has been to associate tags with writing since so muc= h > of computer content is written, and so it is mostly written material > that software developers tag. > > However, rfc 3066 says: > > "The language tag always defines a language as spoken (or written, > signed or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of > information to other human beings." > > so orthography is not a requirement and in fact, this tendency to > (incorrectly I believe) presume writing, is one of the reasons I > objected to "script" being placed between language and region in > 3066bis. As we tag more multimedia, the emphasis on writing is falsely > placed. Unless we want to have a separate tagging system for audio... > > tex > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 18:03:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhaXx-0002Lr-6b; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:03:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhaXw-0002Lm-1o for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:03:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13970 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhau3-0006r6-Lm for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:26:06 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CM309q283910 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:03:00 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5CM30cW185930 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:03:00 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5CM2xkJ015295 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:02:59 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-116-62.mts.ibm.com [9.48.116.62]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5CM2voW015256; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:02:59 -0600 Message-ID: <01b001c56f9a$7ddfc1b0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "McDonald, Ira" , Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:02:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e32.co.us.ibm.com id j5CM309q283910 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Swiss german, spoken X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org On the issue of unwritten content. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mark Davis" To: "IETF Languages Discussion" ; "Michael Evers= on" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 14:45 Subject: Re: Swiss german, spoken > I quote your previous message: > > >> Ys, but that is bollocks. Every language can be written. > > Being "unwritten" is not a property of a language per se, it is a prope= rty > of an *instance* which would be tagged, such as an audio recording of t= he "I > have a Dream" speech, which does not contain written content. This is > similar to other uses of script: when I tag text with Arab, I am not saying > that that language is always written in Arabic, just that the instance = is. > > Thus the interpretation for "code for unwritten languages" -- which is = not > contravened by the text of ISO 15924 -- is that when tagging data, it i= s > indicating an instance where the language happens to be unwritten. So using > en-Zxxx-US for the "I have a Dream" speech is perfectly reasonable. > > =E2=80=8EMark > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "IETF Languages Discussion" > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:03 > Subject: Re: Swiss german, spoken > > > > At 09:40 -0700 2005-06-12, Mark Davis wrote: > > > > >so gsw-Zxxx could mean unwritten Swiss German, en-Zxxx unwritten English, > > > > In what way is English an unwritten language? English is a written > > language; application of Zxxx to it would, I think, be a misuse of > > that tag. Zxxx is "code for unwritten languages". Not "code for > > materials not written". > > > > Though it *is* a little odd that we have a code for languages in the > > list of script codes. > > > > Swiss German, of course, is often written for various cultural purpos= es. > > > > > > --=20 > > Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-languages mailing list > > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 21:11:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhdUX-0003wb-A1; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:11:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhdUV-0003wW-W6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:11:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA25459 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhdqe-00063o-2C for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:34:45 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5D1BRAv022029; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:11:27 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Frank Ellermann'" , ltru@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:11:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellerman wrote: > > McDonald, Ira wrote: > > > the _entire_ justification for shoehorning 'script' between > > 'language' and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on > > traditional uses of language tags for _written_ content. > > No, I don't think that that's a correct description of the > "entire justification", it meshes two independet aspects. > > For written content we need the script, only the language is > not good enough. So we either need something like Bruce's > Content-Script, or where that's no option we try to add it to > the existing language tag. > > If we decide to add it elsewhere I fail to see any advantage > of the 3rd position (between region and variant). So we take > either the last or the 2nd position. > > <...snip...> > > That's the 3rd or last position, I don't see any advantage > of the 3rd position, en-Latn-US-boont or en-US-Latn-boont are > both ugly. Maybe en-US-boont-Latn would be a good idea. > > <...snip...> > > My point is, the new "unloved script" isn't the real problem. > The real problem is the legacy region. And we're damned to > keep it - without looking into the LTRU charter I fear that's > what it says. > Bye, Frank Script only matters for written content. Your argument makes my point exactly: unwritten bias in favor of written content. Script is _new_. Putting script third (or anywhere else after the traditional and very widely used 'region') causes zero compatibility problems with any existing software. At the "who cares" dubious loss caused by RTL truncation for 'script'. I fail to see why nearly all existing language tagged content and all deployed browsers and other language tag processing applications should suffer for the _enhancement_ of 'script' being in the 'right' position. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 23:01:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhfCe-0002QY-JB; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:01:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhfCa-0002QK-B5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:01:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA05884 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhfYk-0002bm-FC for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:24:22 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:01:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swissgerman, spoken Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB8A1C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swissgerman, spoken Thread-Index: AcVvtQJUm+KM/ISbSPysWWHe8NMCQwADpd9Q From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 03:01:07.0840 (UTC) FILETIME=[25348800:01C56FC4] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org You are making a logical error, I believe. Here are a number of false statements, none of which are necessarily = useful in resolving the design: 1. Because script is not important or useful in distinguishing unwritten = content, it is not important in distinguishing written content. 2. Because script is important in distinguishing certain written = content, it is important for unwritten content too. 3. Because English is customarily written in Latin script, it isn't = important to distinguish the script for Chinese (or Serbian, or...) = texts. Mark's point is well taken. Script is not and never has been a = requirement for all documents, only those for which it is useful in = distinguishing content. Then it is invaluable (in the same way that = regions sometimes [but not always] are, or other variants of various = kinds). Note the use of the word "other" in that sentence. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > Sent: 2005?6?12? 18:11 > To: 'Frank Ellermann'; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: FW: tags for written or spoken content, was > Swissgerman, spoken >=20 >=20 > Frank Ellerman wrote: > > > > McDonald, Ira wrote: > > > > > the _entire_ justification for shoehorning 'script' between > > > 'language' and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on > > > traditional uses of language tags for _written_ content. > > > > No, I don't think that that's a correct description of the > > "entire justification", it meshes two independet aspects. > > > > For written content we need the script, only the language is > > not good enough. So we either need something like Bruce's > > Content-Script, or where that's no option we try to add it to > > the existing language tag. > > > > If we decide to add it elsewhere I fail to see any advantage > > of the 3rd position (between region and variant). So we take > > either the last or the 2nd position. > > > > <...snip...> > > > > That's the 3rd or last position, I don't see any advantage > > of the 3rd position, en-Latn-US-boont or en-US-Latn-boont are > > both ugly. Maybe en-US-boont-Latn would be a good idea. > > > > <...snip...> > > > > My point is, the new "unloved script" isn't the real problem. > > The real problem is the legacy region. And we're damned to > > keep it - without looking into the LTRU charter I fear that's > > what it says. > > Bye, Frank >=20 > Script only matters for written content. Your argument makes > my point exactly: unwritten bias in favor of written content. >=20 > Script is _new_. Putting script third (or anywhere else after > the traditional and very widely used 'region') causes zero > compatibility problems with any existing software. At the > "who cares" dubious loss caused by RTL truncation for 'script'. >=20 > I fail to see why nearly all existing language tagged content > and all deployed browsers and other language tag processing > applications should suffer for the _enhancement_ of 'script' > being in the 'right' position. >=20 > Cheers, > - Ira >=20 > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 12 23:15:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhfQQ-0004Ly-IC; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:15:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhfQO-0004Lt-CM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:15:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA06880 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhfma-0003S9-G2 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:38:41 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:15:34 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB8A23@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken Thread-Index: AcVvcoM0HXZvRR9GTD6hMFG/50WoggABFO4g From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 03:15:34.0262 (UTC) FILETIME=[29A20960:01C56FC6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31b28e25e9d13a22020d8b7aedc9832c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Following is a long screed, probably of no value, set down in stream of = consciousness while waiting to go off to view a baseball game this = morning. It is still here this evening and I find no desire to revise = it, but think it might be useful, at least as raw meat for people to = seize at. I find it humorous that Mark and I use different examples to say similar = (but not identical) things. FWIW, Addison --- If the script subtag is necessary, then it must go somewhere. If we turn = everything into a variant, we end up with variant soup. RFC 3066bis = requires the subtags to be in a specific order, keeping us well away = from the fatal argument about what order the subtags go in if there is = no inherent order. Some languages are (customarily) written and some are not. For written = forms of a given language, script and orthographic variation are = important in tagging because it makes a difference in the kinds of = processing one does on that text--spell checking and rendering and so = forth. It is widely recognized that spoken language has a much wider variation = than its written counterpart. In some ways, what ones wants or needs to = tag in spoken language is different from what ones needs to identify in = written text. For example, in written language the distinction between en-US and en-GB = is important. There are spelling and grammatical issues for example = (tyre/tire, jail/gaol, color/colour, etc.). There are also word-choice = differences (pavement/sidewalk, boot/trunk, etc.).=20 The differences in spoken English, however, are quite diverse and = different from those in the written forms. The question is: when I have = a recording of some dialect (Geordie, for example), what is *necessary* = to identify? It will be quite different from what varies in written = language and script is usually not interesting in this case. In that = regard, "en-GB" might not be the most useful identifier any more (spoken = English in the U.K. varies rather more widely than in the USA, although = that is a VERY subjective claim). That doesn't mean that script is less important than region or variant = for written language, though. It means that script is not important to = an application of spoken text. What is important for text remains the = same. Tag choice is important: giving users the tools they need in = different circumstances is vital. For text, this is frequently enough the script subtag. For spoken text other things may be important (although, again, I think = that for example a recording of speech generally doesn't need tagging = that is as specific, since spoken text is naturally more expressive than = written text--some things don't need to be identified if they are = mutually understood). The ontology of spoken (or signed or otherwise = signaled) language is different from that of written text. This is not a = bad thing; it is just how things are. RFC 3066 is based fundamentally on the "Atomic Theory of Languages", = which says that a language can be defined and that "en-US" represents, = somehow, a distinct class of documents (a mixture of written, spoken, = signed, or signaled). It is based on the idea that one can register a = tag for a language that is separate from all other languages (there is = none of this subtag stuff in RFC 3066--"en" is a different language from = "en-US"). If you accept RFC 3066, then you accept the premise that the tag for = written and the tag for spoken text is the same. If you accept RFC = 3066bis, then you accept that this MAY be true, but also that your = application may have varying needs in what is identified. The idea that = we must never interpolate one or another subtag into its logical place = in the tag hierarchy because a different application doesn't need that = subtag is demonstrably false. Finally, I think it is also important to recognize that language tags = are an abstraction of language. We cannot hope to encode the wide = variation of style and substance in text (or speech) in a simple tag. We = get close enough. Examples of literature such as Twain's Pudd'nhead = Wilson--a book written almost wholly in an exaggerated regional (and, = perhaps only later, stereotypical) dialect--show how the expressiveness = of spoken text is difficult to "encode" in any kind of text (Twain = manages it somehow). Somehow tagging that document as "en-US" fails to = capture the substance of the text (my spell checker complains about = nearly every word the grammar checker does not). But it is sufficient, = in many ways, to use such a tag in that case: there is no more American = a writer than Twain and it is part of the world of "en-US" as certainly = as Hemingway's famously simple (or my infamously convoluted) sentences = are. In short, I find this hand wringing somewhat pointless. I think Ira and = Tex's points, while well-taken in isolation, break down when considered = in the broader context of different applications. Fundamentally, this is = what the matching draft is about. The idea of a subtag registry is a = different matter and I think we have the design right. Regards, Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of McDonald, Ira > Sent: 2005?6?12? 10:14 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss > german,spoken >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Many people may have seen this note from Tex Texin to the > IETF Languages list, but I cross-post it here, because it > points out a fundamental IETF last call vulnerability for > the Language Subtag Registry, to whit, that the _entire_ > justification for shoehorning 'script' between 'language' > and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on traditional > uses of language tags for _written_ content. >=20 > The entire (unloved) "Suppress-Script" stuff attempts to > minimize the damage in the real world (now and in the > indefinite future) of the 'script' interloper. >=20 > A much cleaner solution remains to push 'script' back where > it belongs in medium-neutral language tags --> after the > 'region' code. >=20 > And I think that bending 'script' to include spoken (as > Randy speculated somewhere recently?) is just awful. >=20 > Cheers, > - Ira >=20 > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no > [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Tex Texin > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:44 PM > To: Michael Everson > Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org > Subject: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Michael Everson wrote: >=20 > > The tags with we are concerned assume some sort of orthography. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Well, the tendency has been to associate tags with writing since so = much > of computer content is written, and so it is mostly written material > that software developers tag. >=20 > However, rfc 3066 says: >=20 > "The language tag always defines a language as spoken (or written, > signed or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of > information to other human beings." >=20 > so orthography is not a requirement and in fact, this tendency to > (incorrectly I believe) presume writing, is one of the reasons I > objected to "script" being placed between language and region in > 3066bis. As we tag more multimedia, the emphasis on writing is falsely > placed. Unless we want to have a separate tagging system for audio... >=20 > tex > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 02:28:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhiQT-000615-3r; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:28:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhiQR-000610-6S for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:27:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10236 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhime-0003CH-AZ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:50:57 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:27:45 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:27:45 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:27:56 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVvL7aHvXZ6WlqXSvSNeeeHPTlnAgAsNrAw From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 06:27:45.0723 (UTC) FILETIME=[02EB58B0:01C56FE1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > New section: >=20 > Region codes assigned by UN M.49 that do not conflict with > existing region subtags and whose meaning is not the same > as an existing region subtag SHOULD NOT be entered into > the registry as new records until ISO 3166-1 assigned a > corresponding region code. In that case and if there's > no conflict (see above) the ISO 3166-1 code will be added. > In the case of a conflict (see below) the UN M.49 number > will be added. If ISO 3166-1 does not assign a code for > a region with an UN M.49 number over at least one year the > tag reviewer MAY add the UN M.49 number following the > procedures outlined in section 3.4. I agree with the suggestion that a new M.49 numeric ID should not be registered immediately, but that some time be given to permit the ISO 3166-MA to add a corresponding entry, if they're going to take such action within a reasonable time. I'm not sure what that reasonable time should be; one year seems like a long time, but I don't know how much time they typically require. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 02:34:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhiWy-0006xN-84; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:34:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhiWx-0006xI-Gz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:34:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10830 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhitA-0003X5-Ui for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:57:42 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:34:32 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:34:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:34:45 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Thread-Index: AcVvMk7Xu0aPTbMGT56Dsp1HeeXVbgAr3e2g From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 06:34:32.0660 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5790140:01C56FE1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > > Please don't tell me we need a ticket for this too. >=20 > If 003 is listed as "macro-geographical number" on their > page we need no ticket, it's then simply correct. The > last time I looked at their page that wasn't the case. >=20 > IIRC you (?) intended to ask them what this footnote is > supposed to mean, Web page typo or historic. Bye, Frank Are we rat-holing again on the details of the draft registry rather than staying focused on the ID? Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 02:48:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dhik8-0000NR-9d; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:48:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dhik7-0000NH-Pd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:48:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA11698 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhj6L-0003w8-By for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:11:18 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:48:09 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:48:08 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:48:22 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: discussion of position of script subtag Thread-Index: AcVvcoM0HXZvRR9GTD6hMFG/50WoggABFO4gABso2XA= From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 06:48:08.0942 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC03C0E0:01C56FE3] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: [Ltru] discussion of position of script subtag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org A consensus on the position of the script subtag within the sequence of subtags was reached long ago. Further discussion at this time is not helpful when we need to be driving toward stability. I request that any further discussion of this topic cease immediately. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 03:05:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dhj0l-0003Bv-EX; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:05:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dhj0k-00039N-28 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:05:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA12987 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhjMx-0004lg-Lh for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 03:28:29 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:05:19 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:05:18 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 00:05:33 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Thread-Index: AcVu+/Wc+8urYWEUSYqZWIfevOylbAA6BPcw From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jun 2005 07:05:18.0770 (UTC) FILETIME=[41D70920:01C56FE6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > This has been assigned issue number [psg.com #1033] >=20 > > From: "Debbie Garside" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:16 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Written Spoken Signed > ... > > An issue has been raised on the IETF with regard to the principle of > > language tags for written, spoken (and signed) to be registered > distinctly > > as opposed to an "umbrella" tag that was perhaps designed initially for > > written but is now being used to cover all. > > > > As the draft for ISO 639-6 currently supports separate tags for these - > > language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language - perhaps > it > > would be prudent to incorporate some text and a mechanism within 3066bis > to > > support the registering of such specific tags. > > > > Personally, I believe that in the future there will be a real need for > > differentiating between them; it can only enhance archival and retrieval > > processes. First, some clarification regarding signed modality. Signed languages are distinct languages; as such, they should have their own lang subtag, and indeed ISO 639-3 assigns such. American Sign Language is not English expressed using signs rather than voice; hence, a tag for "American Sign Language" could (and, IMO, should) take the same syntactic form as tags such as "en" or "fil". There is such a thing as a verbal language expressed using signs; e.g. signed English. There may well be a need to have a tag to make this distinction. I think a variant subtag for this purpose would be satisfactory; e.g. "en-signed". Now, re written vs. spoken language: There can be varietal linguistic distinctions -- dialect -- between written versus spoken forms of a language, and some user may have a need for tags to reflect such a distinction. What must be understood is that this such a distinction between linguistic varieties is orthogonal to the mode of expression: verbal versus writing. Again, for the linguistic distinction, variant subtags are a reasonable and appropriate. For the distinction between modes of expression, Mark has pointed out that "Zxxx" can be used as a script subtag to indicate that the information is unwritten (hence assumed to be verbal). The fact that the draft for 639-6 supports separate tags for language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language does not have any signification implications for 3066bis, IMO: we are not designing mechanisms to support 639-6 at this time, and the mechanisms in the I-D are already capable of dealing with all such distinctions. Therefore, I recommend that item #1033 be closed. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 16:05:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhvBh-0002pN-Dg; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:05:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhvBe-0002mc-UJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:05:35 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA26301 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dhv5l-0005Xz-Av for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:59:29 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:59:29 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:59:29 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:01:51 +0200 Organization: Lines: 24 Message-ID: <42ADE62F.7463@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <000501c56a11$3990b3e0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Preferred-Value added to registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Please review it and send any comments or questions to the > list. Okay, I found a stupid bug in my quick and dirty script, now it outputs the comments shown below, no problems, bye, Frank IN (2004-07-06) => ID (1989-01-01) IW (2004-07-06) => HE (1989-01-01) JI (2004-07-06) => YI (1989-01-01) JW (2005-01-17) => JV (2001-08-13) SH (2004-07-06) => ?? (2000-02-18) -BU (2004-07-06) => -MM (1989-12-05) -DD (2004-07-06) => -DE (1990-10-30) -FX (2004-07-06) => -FR (1997-07-14) -NT (2004-07-06) => ??? (1993-07-12) -SU (2004-07-06) => ??? (1992-08-30) -TP (2004-07-06) => -TL (2002-11-15) -YD (2004-07-06) => -YE (1990-08-14) -YU (2005-01-01) => -CS (2003-07-23) -ZR (2004-07-06) => -CD (1997-07-14) l57 (sub)tags in 4954 lines, 249 xrefs okay _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 16:15:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhvKJ-0000bn-4y; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:14:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhvKH-0000Y7-4f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:14:29 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01147 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhvD7-0006kM-Gm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:07:05 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:07:05 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:07:05 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:10:58 +0200 Organization: Lines: 172 Message-ID: <42ADE852.29DC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001301c56ecf$17002be0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB881C.AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <001901c56efb$804cf160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Don't forget the matching draft, and the initial registry. If you want the latter to be "last called" and approved before Paris, with all missing Suppress-Scripts discussed and fixed, then you have a serious problem. All I can do is to post the current Suppress-Scripts based on Doug's lstreg.txt 2005-06-05 Bye, Frank aa Afar | Cyrl ab Abkhazian | ae Avestan Latn af Afrikaans | ak Akan | Ethi am Amharic an Aragonese | Arab ar Arabic | Beng as Assamese av Avaric | Latn ay Aymara | az Azerbaijani ba Bashkir | Cyrl be Belarusian | Cyrl bg Bulgarian bh Bihari | bi Bislama | bm Bambara Beng bn Bengali | bo Tibetan | br Breton Latn bs Bosnian | Latn ca Catalan; Vale | ce Chechen Latn ch Chamorro | co Corsican | cr Cree Latn cs Czech | cu Church Slavic | cv Chuvash Latn cy Welsh | Latn da Danish | Latn de German Thaa dv Divehi | Tibt dz Dzongkha | ee Ewe Grek el Greek, Modern | Latn en English | Latn eo Esperanto Latn es Spanish; Cast | Latn et Estonian | Latn eu Basque Arab fa Persian | ff Fulah | Latn fi Finnish Latn fj Fijian | Latn fo Faroese | Latn fr French fy Frisian | Latn ga Irish | gd Gaelic; Scott Latn gl Gallegan | Latn gn Guarani | Gujr gu Gujarati Latn gv Manx | ha Hausa | Hebr he Hebrew Deva hi Hindi | ho Hiri Motu | Latn hr Croatian Latn ht Haitian; Hait | Latn hu Hungarian | Armn hy Armenian hz Herero | ia Interlingua ( | Latn id Indonesian ie Interlingue | ig Igbo | ii Sichuan Yi ik Inupiaq | Latn in Indonesian | io Ido Latn is Icelandic | Latn it Italian | iu Inuktitut Hebr iw Hebrew | ja Japanese | ji Yiddish jv Javanese | jw Javanese | Geor ka Georgian kg Kongo | ki Kikuyu; Gikuy | kj Kuanyama; Kwa Cyrl kk Kazakh | Latn kl Kalaallisut; | Khmr km Khmer Knda kn Kannada | ko Korean | kr Kanuri ks Kashmiri | ku Kurdish | kv Komi kw Cornish | ky Kirghiz | Latn la Latin Latn lb Luxembourgish | lg Ganda | li Limburgan; Li Latn ln Lingala | Laoo lo Lao | Latn lt Lithuanian lu Luba-Katanga | Latn lv Latvian | Latn mg Malagasy Latn mh Marshallese | mi Maori | Cyrl mk Macedonian Mlym ml Malayalam | mn Mongolian | Latn mo Moldavian Deva mr Marathi | Latn ms Malay | Latn mt Maltese Mymr my Burmese | Latn na Nauru | Latn nb Norwegian Bok Latn nd Ndebele, Nort | Deva ne Nepali | ng Ndonga Latn nl Dutch; Flemis | Latn nn Norwegian Nyn | Latn no Norwegian Latn nr Ndebele, Sout | nv Navajo; Navah | Latn ny Chichewa; Che oc Occitan (post | oj Ojibwa | Latn om Oromo Orya or Oriya | os Ossetian; Oss | Guru pa Panjabi; Punj pi Pali | Latn pl Polish | Arab ps Pushto Latn pt Portuguese | Latn qu Quechua | rm Raeto-Romance Latn rn Rundi | Latn ro Romanian | Cyrl ru Russian Latn rw Kinyarwanda | sa Sanskrit | sc Sardinian sd Sindhi | se Northern Sami | Latn sg Sango sh Serbo-Croatia | Sinh si Sinhala; Sinh | Latn sk Slovak Latn sl Slovenian | Latn sm Samoan | sn Shona Latn so Somali | Latn sq Albanian | sr Serbian Latn ss Swati | Latn st Sotho, Southe | su Sundanese Latn sv Swedish | Latn sw Swahili | Taml ta Tamil Telu te Telugu | tg Tajik | Thai th Thai Ethi ti Tigrinya | tk Turkmen | Latn tl Tagalog Latn tn Tswana | Latn to Tonga (Tonga | Latn tr Turkish Latn ts Tsonga | tt Tatar | tw Twi ty Tahitian | ug Uighur; Uyghu | Cyrl uk Ukrainian Arab ur Urdu | uz Uzbek | Latn ve Venda Latn vi Vietnamese | vo Volapük | wa Walloon Latn wo Wolof | Latn xh Xhosa | Hebr yi Yiddish yo Yoruba | za Zhuang; Chuan | zh Chinese Latn zu Zulu | ace Achinese | ach Acoli ada Adangme | ady Adyghe; Adyge | afa Afro-Asiatic afh Afrihili | akk Akkadian | ale Aleut alg Algonquian la | alt Southern Alta | ang English, Old apa Apache langua | arc Aramaic | arn Araucanian arp Arapaho | art Artificial (O | arw Arawak ast Asturian; Bab | ath Athapascan la | aus Australian la awa Awadhi | bad Banda | bai Bamileke lang bal Baluchi | ban Balinese | bas Basa bat Baltic (Other | bej Beja | bem Bemba ber Berber (Other | bho Bhojpuri | bik Bikol bin Bini | bla Siksika | bnt Bantu (Other) bra Braj | btk Batak (Indone | bua Buriat bug Buginese | byn Blin; Bilin | cad Caddo cai Central Ameri | car Carib | cau Caucasian (Ot ceb Cebuano | cel Celtic (Other | chb Chibcha chg Chagatai | chk Chuukese | chm Mari chn Chinook jargo | cho Choctaw | chp Chipewyan chr Cherokee | chy Cheyenne | cmc Chamic langua cop Coptic | Latn cpe Creoles and p | cpf Creoles and p cpp Creoles and p | crh Crimean Tatar | crp Creoles and p csb Kashubian | cus Cushitic (Oth | dak Dakota dar Dargwa | day Dayak | del Delaware den Slave (Athapa | dgr Dogrib | din Dinka doi Dogri | dra Dravidian (Ot | dsb Lower Sorbian dua Duala | dum Dutch, Middle | dyu Dyula efi Efik | egy Egyptian (Anc | eka Ekajuk elx Elamite | enm English, Midd | ewo Ewondo fan Fang | fat Fanti | fil Filipino; Pil fiu Finno-Ugrian | fon Fon | frm French, Middl fro French, Old ( | fur Friulian | gaa Ga gay Gayo | gba Gbaya | gem Germanic (Oth gez Geez | gil Gilbertese | gmh German, Middl goh German, Old H | gon Gondi | gor Gorontalo got Gothic | grb Grebo | grc Greek, Ancien gwi Gwich´in | hai Haida | haw Hawaiian hil Hiligaynon | him Himachali | hit Hittite hmn Hmong | hsb Upper Sorbian | hup Hupa iba Iban | ijo Ijo | ilo Iloko inc Indic (Other) | ine Indo-European | inh Ingush ira Iranian (Othe | iro Iroquoian lan | jbo Lojban jpr Judeo-Persian | jrb Judeo-Arabic | kaa Kara-Kalpak kab Kabyle | kac Kachin | kam Kamba kar Karen | kaw Kawi | kbd Kabardian kha Khasi | khi Khoisan (Othe | kho Khotanese kmb Kimbundu | Deva kok Konkani | kos Kosraean kpe Kpelle | krc Karachay-Balk | kro Kru kru Kurukh | kum Kumyk | kut Kutenai lad Ladino | lah Lahnda | lam Lamba lez Lezghian | lol Mongo | loz Lozi lua Luba-Lulua | lui Luiseno | lun Lunda luo Luo (Kenya an | lus Lushai | mad Madurese mag Magahi | Deva mai Maithili | mak Makasar man Mandingo | map Austronesian | mas Masai mdf Moksha | mdr Mandar | Latn men Mende mga Irish, Middle | mic Mi'kmaq; Micm | min Minangkabau mis Miscellaneous | mkh Mon-Khmer (Ot | mnc Manchu mni Manipuri | mno Manobo langua | moh Mohawk mos Mossi | mul Multiple lang | mun Munda languag mus Creek | mwl Mirandese | mwr Marwari myn Mayan languag | myv Erzya | nah Nahuatl nai North America | nap Neapolitan | nds Low German; L new Nepal Bhasa; | nia Nias | nic Niger-Kordofa Latn niu Niuean | nog Nogai | non Norse, Old Latn nso Northern Soth | nub Nubian langua | nwc Classical New nym Nyamwezi | nyn Nyankole | nyo Nyoro nzi Nzima | osa Osage | ota Turkish, Otto oto Otomian langu | paa Papuan (Other | pag Pangasinan pal Pahlavi | pam Pampanga | pap Papiamento pau Palauan | peo Persian, Old | phi Philippine (O phn Phoenician | pon Pohnpeian | pra Prakrit langu pro Provença | qaa PRIVATE USE | raj Rajasthani rap Rapanui | rar Rarotongan | roa Romance (Othe rom Romany | sad Sandawe | sah Yakut sai South America | sal Salishan lang | sam Samaritan Ara sas Sasak | sat Santali | scn Sicilian sco Scots | sel Selkup | sem Semitic (Othe sga Irish, Old (t | sgn Sign Language | shn Shan sid Sidamo | sio Siouan langua | sit Sino-Tibetan sla Slavic (Other | sma Southern Sami | smi Sami language smj Lule Sami | smn Inari Sami | sms Skolt Sami snk Soninke | sog Sogdian | Latn son Songhai srn Sranan Tongo | srr Serer | ssa Nilo-Saharan suk Sukuma | sus Susu | sux Sumerian syr Syriac | tai Tai (Other) | Latn tem Timne ter Tereno | tet Tetum | tig Tigre tiv Tiv | Latn tkl Tokelau | tlh Klingon; tlhI tli Tlingit | Latn tmh Tamashek | tog Tonga (Nyasa) Latn tpi Tok Pisin | tsi Tsimshian | tum Tumbuka tup Tupi language | tut Altaic (Other | Latn tvl Tuvalu tyv Tuvinian | udm Udmurt | uga Ugaritic umb Umbundu | und Undetermined | vai Vai vot Votic | wak Wakashan lang | wal Walamo war Waray | was Washo | wen Sorbian langu xal Kalmyk; Oirat | yao Yao | yap Yapese ypk Yupik languag | zap Zapotec | zen Zenaga znd Zande | zun Zuni | _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 16:22:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhvS9-0007xt-8Z; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:22:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhvS7-0007sW-Ge for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:22:35 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03348 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhvN3-00008K-HU for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:17:21 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:17:21 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:17:21 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:20:51 +0200 Organization: Lines: 3 Message-ID: <42ADEAA3.4576@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <000501c56a11$3990b3e0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42ADE62F.7463@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Preferred-Value added to registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > l57 (sub)tags in 4954 lines, 249 xrefs okay ..957 (Alt-L mark line block + PEBKAC replaced 9 by l, sorry) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 17:29:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhwV4-0001nW-3g; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:29:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhwV2-0001mJ-07 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:29:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07678 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhwrL-00071P-T5 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:52:46 -0400 Received: from h-68-166-189-112.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.166.189.112] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DhwUt-0003Hb-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:29:32 -0400 Message-ID: <008a01c5705f$74e69640$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:32:52 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf3becbbd6d1a45acbe2ffd4ab88bdc2 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As co-chair: For now, rather than treating this as a re-opening of issue #999, let's handle this in the context of #1033. If we find that whatever our resolution for #1033 requires us to revisit issue #999, we can do so then. Given the amount of discussion that this question engendered on the ietf-languages list, I want to make sure that as a WG we are comfortable with our resolution of #1033. Furthermore, given the pain and anguish needed to get to a rough consensus on #999, I do not want to re-open it unless it turns out our underlying assumptions were seriously flawed. So let's hash out #1033, and then see whether we really need to re-open #999. Randy, ltru co-chair > From: "McDonald, Ira" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 10:14 AM > Subject: [Ltru] FW: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german,spoken > > Hi, > > Many people may have seen this note from Tex Texin to the > IETF Languages list, but I cross-post it here, because it > points out a fundamental IETF last call vulnerability for > the Language Subtag Registry, to whit, that the _entire_ > justification for shoehorning 'script' between 'language' > and 'region' is the overwhelming focus on traditional > uses of language tags for _written_ content. > > The entire (unloved) "Suppress-Script" stuff attempts to > minimize the damage in the real world (now and in the > indefinite future) of the 'script' interloper. > > A much cleaner solution remains to push 'script' back where > it belongs in medium-neutral language tags --> after the > 'region' code. > > And I think that bending 'script' to include spoken (as > Randy speculated somewhere recently?) is just awful. > > Cheers, > - Ira > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no > [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Tex Texin > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:44 PM > To: Michael Everson > Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org > Subject: tags for written or spoken content, was Swiss german, spoken > > > > > Michael Everson wrote: > > > The tags with we are concerned assume some sort of orthography. > > > > Well, the tendency has been to associate tags with writing since so much > of computer content is written, and so it is mostly written material > that software developers tag. > > However, rfc 3066 says: > > "The language tag always defines a language as spoken (or written, > signed or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of > information to other human beings." > > so orthography is not a requirement and in fact, this tendency to > (incorrectly I believe) presume writing, is one of the reasons I > objected to "script" being placed between language and region in > 3066bis. As we tag more multimedia, the emphasis on writing is falsely > placed. Unless we want to have a separate tagging system for audio... > > tex > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 17:32:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhwY9-0002gj-Bu; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:32:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhwY8-0002fH-AP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:32:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07889 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.129]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhwuQ-00078u-JD for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:55:56 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DLWYua290472 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:32:34 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5DLWYkQ184168 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:32:34 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5DLWXqo005491 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:32:34 -0600 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.sanjose.ibm.com [9.43.213.118]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5DLWVqv005316; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:32:33 -0600 Message-ID: <02db01c5705f$674cfd30$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" , References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] discussion of position of script subtag Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:32:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e31.co.us.ibm.com id j5DLWYua290472 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Strongly agreed. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Peter Constable" To: Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 23:48 Subject: [Ltru] discussion of position of script subtag A consensus on the position of the script subtag within the sequence of subtags was reached long ago. Further discussion at this time is not helpful when we need to be driving toward stability. I request that any further discussion of this topic cease immediately. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 17:33:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhwZ0-00035N-8K; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:33:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhwYy-00034R-FG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:33:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07935 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DhwvK-0007Ec-Hm for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:56:51 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DLXYmD232038 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:33:34 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5DLXXkQ138824 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:33:33 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5DLXXPJ008692 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:33:33 -0600 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.sanjose.ibm.com [9.43.213.118]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5DLXWtc008649; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:33:33 -0600 Message-ID: <02e301c5705f$8bdae630$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" , References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:33:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e33.co.us.ibm.com id j5DLXYmD232038 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org >Therefore, I recommend that item #1033 be closed. Strongly agreed. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Peter Constable" To: Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 00:05 Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed > This has been assigned issue number [psg.com #1033] > > > From: "Debbie Garside" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:16 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Written Spoken Signed > ... > > An issue has been raised on the IETF with regard to the principle of > > language tags for written, spoken (and signed) to be registered > distinctly > > as opposed to an "umbrella" tag that was perhaps designed initially for > > written but is now being used to cover all. > > > > As the draft for ISO 639-6 currently supports separate tags for these - > > language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language - perhaps > it > > would be prudent to incorporate some text and a mechanism within 3066bis > to > > support the registering of such specific tags. > > > > Personally, I believe that in the future there will be a real need for > > differentiating between them; it can only enhance archival and retrieval > > processes. First, some clarification regarding signed modality. Signed languages are distinct languages; as such, they should have their own lang subtag, and indeed ISO 639-3 assigns such. American Sign Language is not English expressed using signs rather than voice; hence, a tag for "American Sign Language" could (and, IMO, should) take the same syntactic form as tags such as "en" or "fil". There is such a thing as a verbal language expressed using signs; e.g. signed English. There may well be a need to have a tag to make this distinction. I think a variant subtag for this purpose would be satisfactory; e.g. "en-signed". Now, re written vs. spoken language: There can be varietal linguistic distinctions -- dialect -- between written versus spoken forms of a language, and some user may have a need for tags to reflect such a distinction. What must be understood is that this such a distinction between linguistic varieties is orthogonal to the mode of expression: verbal versus writing. Again, for the linguistic distinction, variant subtags are a reasonable and appropriate. For the distinction between modes of expression, Mark has pointed out that "Zxxx" can be used as a script subtag to indicate that the information is unwritten (hence assumed to be verbal). The fact that the draft for 639-6 supports separate tags for language, written_language, spoken_language, signed_language does not have any signification implications for 3066bis, IMO: we are not designing mechanisms to support 639-6 at this time, and the mechanisms in the I-D are already capable of dealing with all such distinctions. Therefore, I recommend that item #1033 be closed. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 18:18:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhxG4-0007ZC-91; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:18:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhxG0-0007XY-34 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:18:14 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12864 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhxAx-00089D-H4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:12:59 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:12:59 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:12:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:13:29 +0200 Organization: Lines: 54 Message-ID: <42AE0509.13DB@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, if Randy really wants to "last call" the matching draft together with the registry draft it's time to find some nits: - the references are still messy (2234 instead of 2234bis, normative IANA MoU, unreferenced [2], [3], [4], [6], [7], [8], [9], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], {18], [20] ). - the credits are dubious, IIRC only Doug, Ira, Ned, John, and Randy contributed to the matching draft (and Ira isn't listed). - chapter 5 is apparently a copy from the registry draft. A simple pointer "security considerations are discussed in [draft-ietf-ltru-registry]" is better. - chapter 6 is apparently a copy from the registry draft, it could be deleted. Probably this kills some more references. - chapter 4 says "this is the first version of this document". But its draft -02, not -00. - chapter 3 doesn't appear in the order recommended in draft rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-08 (Acknowledgements, Security, IANA). I've seen Bruce check this, and I got this "wrong" elsewhere. - The "Abstract" contains references, but that's not allowed. The XML input is apparently invalid, for a nice validator see also . No, I'm not joking, I discussed this on the xml2rfc list. - For the author's addresses I'd add some corresponding URLs, e.g. - no idea for Mark, IBM URLs are in permanent flux... ...one hour later, and queries like work again. Grmbl. - The intro defines unused keywords REQUIRED, SHALL, SHALL NOT, and OPTIONAL. Bruce checks this. - chapter 2.1.1 mentions en-DE-boont, that's an odd example for matching. - chapter 2.1.2 says *[ "-" extlang ] Bill's checker proposes *( "-" extlang ) We want *3( "-" extlang ) It also says ( "x" / "X" ) instead of "x". Same problem in the registry draft, AFAIK ("x"/"X") should be "x", reported several times here. Obscure ABNF issues => TILT, I don't look any further, bye. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 18:48:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dhxji-0000L6-RW; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dhxjh-0000Kz-0G for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17001 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhy63-0002jT-W4 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:12:00 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5DMmfiH021980 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:41 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5DMmfZY242242 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:41 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5DMmfWK009122 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:41 -0400 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.sanjose.ibm.com [9.43.213.118]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5DMmeax009053; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:48:41 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c5706a$0ae4d3a0$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: , "Frank Ellermann" References: <42AE0509.13DB@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:48:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j5DMmfiH021980 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Huh? I would object to that. The matching document has had not nearly the same review, nor has the same timetable in the charter. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Ellermann" To: Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 15:13 Subject: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 > Hi, if Randy really wants to "last call" the matching draft > together with the registry draft it's time to find some nits: > > - the references are still messy (2234 instead of 2234bis, > normative IANA MoU, unreferenced [2], [3], [4], [6], [7], > [8], [9], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], {18], > [20] ). > > - the credits are dubious, IIRC only Doug, Ira, Ned, John, > and Randy contributed to the matching draft (and Ira isn't > listed). > > - chapter 5 is apparently a copy from the registry draft. > A simple pointer "security considerations are discussed in > [draft-ietf-ltru-registry]" is better. > > - chapter 6 is apparently a copy from the registry draft, it > could be deleted. Probably this kills some more references. > > - chapter 4 says "this is the first version of this document". > But its draft -02, not -00. > > - chapter 3 doesn't appear in the order recommended in draft > rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-08 (Acknowledgements, Security, IANA). > I've seen Bruce check this, and I got this "wrong" elsewhere. > > - The "Abstract" contains references, but that's not allowed. > The XML input is apparently invalid, for a nice validator > see also . > No, I'm not joking, I discussed this on the xml2rfc list. > > - For the author's addresses I'd add some corresponding URLs, > e.g. - no idea for Mark, IBM > URLs are in permanent flux... > > ...one hour later, and queries like > work again. Grmbl. > > - The intro defines unused keywords REQUIRED, SHALL, SHALL NOT, > and OPTIONAL. Bruce checks this. > > - chapter 2.1.1 mentions en-DE-boont, that's an odd example > for matching. > > - chapter 2.1.2 says *[ "-" extlang ] > Bill's checker proposes *( "-" extlang ) > We want *3( "-" extlang ) > > It also says ( "x" / "X" ) instead of "x". Same problem in > the registry draft, AFAIK ("x"/"X") should be "x", reported > several times here. > > Obscure ABNF issues =3D> TILT, I don't look any further, bye. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 20:26:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzFi-0001Ph-0W; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:26:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzFf-0001Ou-Uc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:26:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24543 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [133.2.251.195] (helo=scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhzc1-00075C-KC for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:49:07 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5E0NSI11133; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 0521c52c_dc6c_11d9_940a_0030482532aa_16640; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:34:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO003B52; 14 Jun 05 09:27:41 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 14 Jun 05 09:27:37 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.1) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG003B50; 14 Jun 05 09:27:28 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050614092226.07c389c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:00 +0900 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Preferred-Value added to registry In-Reply-To: <42ADEAA3.4576@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <000501c56a11$3990b3e0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42ADE62F.7463@xyzzy.claranet.de> <42ADEAA3.4576@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 05:20 05/06/14, Frank Ellermann wrote: >> l57 (sub)tags in 4954 lines, 249 xrefs okay >..957 (Alt-L mark line block + PEBKAC replaced 9 by l, sorry) I think it would help a lot of people if messages could be a bit less cryptic. Regards, Martin. >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 20:26:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzFi-0001QL-9G; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:26:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzFf-0001Ot-V3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:26:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA24540 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [133.2.251.194] (helo=scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhzc1-00075B-I6 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:49:06 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5E0NS700487; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 04a86948_dc6c_11d9_940a_0030482532aa_16640; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:34:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO003B51; 14 Jun 05 09:27:40 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 14 Jun 05 09:27:37 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.1) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG003B4F; 14 Jun 05 09:27:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050614091454.07c3a2e0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:22:01 +0900 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France In-Reply-To: <42ADE852.29DC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001301c56ecf$17002be0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42AB881C.AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <001901c56efb$804cf160$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42ADE852.29DC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [chair hat off] Supress-scripts means "no need to mention this script for this language", yes? If so, then I think we have way not enough of them. As an example, for "rm Raeto-Romance", there is very clearly nothing else than Latin that I'm aware of. There are others that look very easy to fill in: cu Church Slavic -> Cyrillic bo Tibetan -> Tibetan (what else?) frm French, Middl -> Latn ang English, Old -> Latn gmh German, Middl -> Latn grc Greek, Ancien -> Greek gez Geez -> Ethiopic There are many more, similar ones. Regards, Martin. At 05:10 05/06/14, Frank Ellermann wrote: >Randy Presuhn wrote: > >> Don't forget the matching draft, and the initial registry. > >If you want the latter to be "last called" and approved before >Paris, with all missing Suppress-Scripts discussed and fixed, >then you have a serious problem. All I can do is to post the >current Suppress-Scripts based on Doug's lstreg.txt 2005-06-05 > > Bye, Frank > > aa Afar | Cyrl ab Abkhazian | ae Avestan >Latn af Afrikaans | ak Akan | Ethi am Amharic > an Aragonese | Arab ar Arabic | Beng as Assamese > av Avaric | Latn ay Aymara | az Azerbaijani > ba Bashkir | Cyrl be Belarusian | Cyrl bg Bulgarian > bh Bihari | bi Bislama | bm Bambara >Beng bn Bengali | bo Tibetan | br Breton >Latn bs Bosnian | Latn ca Catalan; Vale | ce Chechen >Latn ch Chamorro | co Corsican | cr Cree >Latn cs Czech | cu Church Slavic | cv Chuvash >Latn cy Welsh | Latn da Danish | Latn de German >Thaa dv Divehi | Tibt dz Dzongkha | ee Ewe >Grek el Greek, Modern | Latn en English | Latn eo Esperanto >Latn es Spanish; Cast | Latn et Estonian | Latn eu Basque >Arab fa Persian | ff Fulah | Latn fi Finnish >Latn fj Fijian | Latn fo Faroese | Latn fr French > fy Frisian | Latn ga Irish | gd Gaelic; Scott >Latn gl Gallegan | Latn gn Guarani | Gujr gu Gujarati >Latn gv Manx | ha Hausa | Hebr he Hebrew >Deva hi Hindi | ho Hiri Motu | Latn hr Croatian >Latn ht Haitian; Hait | Latn hu Hungarian | Armn hy Armenian > hz Herero | ia Interlingua ( | Latn id Indonesian > ie Interlingue | ig Igbo | ii Sichuan Yi > ik Inupiaq | Latn in Indonesian | io Ido >Latn is Icelandic | Latn it Italian | iu Inuktitut >Hebr iw Hebrew | ja Japanese | ji Yiddish > jv Javanese | jw Javanese | Geor ka Georgian > kg Kongo | ki Kikuyu; Gikuy | kj Kuanyama; Kwa >Cyrl kk Kazakh | Latn kl Kalaallisut; | Khmr km Khmer >Knda kn Kannada | ko Korean | kr Kanuri > ks Kashmiri | ku Kurdish | kv Komi > kw Cornish | ky Kirghiz | Latn la Latin >Latn lb Luxembourgish | lg Ganda | li Limburgan; Li >Latn ln Lingala | Laoo lo Lao | Latn lt Lithuanian > lu Luba-Katanga | Latn lv Latvian | Latn mg Malagasy >Latn mh Marshallese | mi Maori | Cyrl mk Macedonian >Mlym ml Malayalam | mn Mongolian | Latn mo Moldavian >Deva mr Marathi | Latn ms Malay | Latn mt Maltese >Mymr my Burmese | Latn na Nauru | Latn nb Norwegian Bok >Latn nd Ndebele, Nort | Deva ne Nepali | ng Ndonga >Latn nl Dutch; Flemis | Latn nn Norwegian Nyn | Latn no Norwegian >Latn nr Ndebele, Sout | nv Navajo; Navah | Latn ny Chichewa; Che > oc Occitan (post | oj Ojibwa | Latn om Oromo >Orya or Oriya | os Ossetian; Oss | Guru pa Panjabi; Punj > pi Pali | Latn pl Polish | Arab ps Pushto >Latn pt Portuguese | Latn qu Quechua | rm Raeto-Romance >Latn rn Rundi | Latn ro Romanian | Cyrl ru Russian >Latn rw Kinyarwanda | sa Sanskrit | sc Sardinian > sd Sindhi | se Northern Sami | Latn sg Sango > sh Serbo-Croatia | Sinh si Sinhala; Sinh | Latn sk Slovak >Latn sl Slovenian | Latn sm Samoan | sn Shona >Latn so Somali | Latn sq Albanian | sr Serbian >Latn ss Swati | Latn st Sotho, Southe | su Sundanese >Latn sv Swedish | Latn sw Swahili | Taml ta Tamil >Telu te Telugu | tg Tajik | Thai th Thai >Ethi ti Tigrinya | tk Turkmen | Latn tl Tagalog >Latn tn Tswana | Latn to Tonga (Tonga | Latn tr Turkish >Latn ts Tsonga | tt Tatar | tw Twi > ty Tahitian | ug Uighur; Uyghu | Cyrl uk Ukrainian >Arab ur Urdu | uz Uzbek | Latn ve Venda >Latn vi Vietnamese | vo Volapük | wa Walloon >Latn wo Wolof | Latn xh Xhosa | Hebr yi Yiddish > yo Yoruba | za Zhuang; Chuan | zh Chinese >Latn zu Zulu | ace Achinese | ach Acoli > ada Adangme | ady Adyghe; Adyge | afa Afro-Asiatic > afh Afrihili | akk Akkadian | ale Aleut > alg Algonquian la | alt Southern Alta | ang English, Old > apa Apache langua | arc Aramaic | arn Araucanian > arp Arapaho | art Artificial (O | arw Arawak > ast Asturian; Bab | ath Athapascan la | aus Australian la > awa Awadhi | bad Banda | bai Bamileke lang > bal Baluchi | ban Balinese | bas Basa > bat Baltic (Other | bej Beja | bem Bemba > ber Berber (Other | bho Bhojpuri | bik Bikol > bin Bini | bla Siksika | bnt Bantu (Other) > bra Braj | btk Batak (Indone | bua Buriat > bug Buginese | byn Blin; Bilin | cad Caddo > cai Central Ameri | car Carib | cau Caucasian (Ot > ceb Cebuano | cel Celtic (Other | chb Chibcha > chg Chagatai | chk Chuukese | chm Mari > chn Chinook jargo | cho Choctaw | chp Chipewyan > chr Cherokee | chy Cheyenne | cmc Chamic langua > cop Coptic | Latn cpe Creoles and p | cpf Creoles and p > cpp Creoles and p | crh Crimean Tatar | crp Creoles and p > csb Kashubian | cus Cushitic (Oth | dak Dakota > dar Dargwa | day Dayak | del Delaware > den Slave (Athapa | dgr Dogrib | din Dinka > doi Dogri | dra Dravidian (Ot | dsb Lower Sorbian > dua Duala | dum Dutch, Middle | dyu Dyula > efi Efik | egy Egyptian (Anc | eka Ekajuk > elx Elamite | enm English, Midd | ewo Ewondo > fan Fang | fat Fanti | fil Filipino; Pil > fiu Finno-Ugrian | fon Fon | frm French, Middl > fro French, Old ( | fur Friulian | gaa Ga > gay Gayo | gba Gbaya | gem Germanic (Oth > gez Geez | gil Gilbertese | gmh German, Middl > goh German, Old H | gon Gondi | gor Gorontalo > got Gothic | grb Grebo | grc Greek, Ancien > gwi Gwich´in | hai Haida | haw Hawaiian > hil Hiligaynon | him Himachali | hit Hittite > hmn Hmong | hsb Upper Sorbian | hup Hupa > iba Iban | ijo Ijo | ilo Iloko > inc Indic (Other) | ine Indo-European | inh Ingush > ira Iranian (Othe | iro Iroquoian lan | jbo Lojban > jpr Judeo-Persian | jrb Judeo-Arabic | kaa Kara-Kalpak > kab Kabyle | kac Kachin | kam Kamba > kar Karen | kaw Kawi | kbd Kabardian > kha Khasi | khi Khoisan (Othe | kho Khotanese > kmb Kimbundu | Deva kok Konkani | kos Kosraean > kpe Kpelle | krc Karachay-Balk | kro Kru > kru Kurukh | kum Kumyk | kut Kutenai > lad Ladino | lah Lahnda | lam Lamba > lez Lezghian | lol Mongo | loz Lozi > lua Luba-Lulua | lui Luiseno | lun Lunda > luo Luo (Kenya an | lus Lushai | mad Madurese > mag Magahi | Deva mai Maithili | mak Makasar > man Mandingo | map Austronesian | mas Masai > mdf Moksha | mdr Mandar | Latn men Mende > mga Irish, Middle | mic Mi'kmaq; Micm | min Minangkabau > mis Miscellaneous | mkh Mon-Khmer (Ot | mnc Manchu > mni Manipuri | mno Manobo langua | moh Mohawk > mos Mossi | mul Multiple lang | mun Munda languag > mus Creek | mwl Mirandese | mwr Marwari > myn Mayan languag | myv Erzya | nah Nahuatl > nai North America | nap Neapolitan | nds Low German; L > new Nepal Bhasa; | nia Nias | nic Niger-Kordofa >Latn niu Niuean | nog Nogai | non Norse, Old >Latn nso Northern Soth | nub Nubian langua | nwc Classical New > nym Nyamwezi | nyn Nyankole | nyo Nyoro > nzi Nzima | osa Osage | ota Turkish, Otto > oto Otomian langu | paa Papuan (Other | pag Pangasinan > pal Pahlavi | pam Pampanga | pap Papiamento > pau Palauan | peo Persian, Old | phi Philippine (O > phn Phoenician | pon Pohnpeian | pra Prakrit langu > pro Provença | qaa PRIVATE USE | raj Rajasthani > rap Rapanui | rar Rarotongan | roa Romance (Othe > rom Romany | sad Sandawe | sah Yakut > sai South America | sal Salishan lang | sam Samaritan Ara > sas Sasak | sat Santali | scn Sicilian > sco Scots | sel Selkup | sem Semitic (Othe > sga Irish, Old (t | sgn Sign Language | shn Shan > sid Sidamo | sio Siouan langua | sit Sino-Tibetan > sla Slavic (Other | sma Southern Sami | smi Sami language > smj Lule Sami | smn Inari Sami | sms Skolt Sami > snk Soninke | sog Sogdian | Latn son Songhai > srn Sranan Tongo | srr Serer | ssa Nilo-Saharan > suk Sukuma | sus Susu | sux Sumerian > syr Syriac | tai Tai (Other) | Latn tem Timne > ter Tereno | tet Tetum | tig Tigre > tiv Tiv | Latn tkl Tokelau | tlh Klingon; tlhI > tli Tlingit | Latn tmh Tamashek | tog Tonga (Nyasa) >Latn tpi Tok Pisin | tsi Tsimshian | tum Tumbuka > tup Tupi language | tut Altaic (Other | Latn tvl Tuvalu > tyv Tuvinian | udm Udmurt | uga Ugaritic > umb Umbundu | und Undetermined | vai Vai > vot Votic | wak Wakashan lang | wal Walamo > war Waray | was Washo | wen Sorbian langu > xal Kalmyk; Oirat | yao Yao | yap Yapese > ypk Yupik languag | zap Zapotec | zen Zenaga > znd Zande | zun Zuni | > > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 20:41:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzUV-0005cu-8g; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzUU-0005cp-6B for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25694 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dhzqr-0007qv-Qb for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:04:26 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5E0f7I12354; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:41:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 7bff7f48_dc6e_11d9_80a5_0030482532aa_16672; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:51:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO003B65; 14 Jun 05 09:45:19 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 14 Jun 05 09:45:14 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.1) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG003B64; 14 Jun 05 09:45:12 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050614092504.07c3b6a0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:27:19 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "Peter Constable" , From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed In-Reply-To: <02e301c5705f$8bdae630$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> References: <02e301c5705f$8bdae630$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 06:33 05/06/14, Mark Davis wrote: >Now, re written vs. spoken language: > >There can be varietal linguistic distinctions -- dialect -- between >written versus spoken forms of a language, and some user may have a need >for tags to reflect such a distinction. What must be understood is that >this such a distinction between linguistic varieties is orthogonal to >the mode of expression: verbal versus writing. Again, for the linguistic >distinction, variant subtags are a reasonable and appropriate. For the >distinction between modes of expression, Mark has pointed out that >"Zxxx" can be used as a script subtag to indicate that the information >is unwritten (hence assumed to be verbal). > > >The fact that the draft for 639-6 supports separate tags for language, >written_language, spoken_language, signed_language does not have any >signification implications for 3066bis, IMO: we are not designing >mechanisms to support 639-6 at this time, and the mechanisms in the I-D >are already capable of dealing with all such distinctions. Therefore, I >recommend that item #1033 be closed. On top of that, please note that while we would need new headers for scripts (e.g. Accept-Script:), it's easy to indicate whether you want something spoken or something written: For written text, something like Accept: text/*, application/pdf, application/xml will do, whereas for spoken stuff, Accept: audio/* or so will do the job. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 20:50:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzdQ-0007wu-NS; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:50:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzdP-0007wk-Ez for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:50:31 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26129 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhzY0-0007iN-Nw for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:44:56 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:44:56 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:44:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:47:50 +0200 Organization: Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42AE2936.59DF@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42AE0509.13DB@xyzzy.claranet.de> <001301c5706a$0ae4d3a0$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > The matching document has had not nearly the same review, > nor has the same timetable in the charter. Randy mentioned it when we talked about the Paris timetable. It needs some clean-up before it can survive Bruce's famous reviews. For the ABNF I just found a third potential issue: lang = ( 2*8ALPHA *[ "-" extlang ] ) / "*" extlang = 3ALPHA / "*" lng-exa-*-exc-Latn can't be what you really want, how about: lang = ( 2*8ALPHA *3( "-" extlang )) / "*" extlang = 3ALPHA Either "*" for the complete , or no "*" in this part. Or do you want lng-exa-*-exc-Latn for matching ? Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 20:53:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzgD-0000Bk-9h; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DhzgC-0000B6-Ml for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA26348 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di02a-0008LE-S4 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:16:33 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5E0rBTN001966 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:11 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5E0rBah206630 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:11 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5E0rBeO001032 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:11 -0400 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.sanjose.ibm.com [9.43.213.118]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5E0rAEM001009; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:11 -0400 Message-ID: <008101c5707b$6f48af90$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: , "Frank Ellermann" References: <42AE0509.13DB@xyzzy.claranet.de><001301c5706a$0ae4d3a0$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <42AE2936.59DF@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:53:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j5E0rBTN001966 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy, the matching document has never had the same deadline as the regis= try one; we need to concentrate on getting the registry done, and not get distracted. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Ellermann" To: Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 17:47 Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 > Mark Davis wrote: > > > The matching document has had not nearly the same review, > > nor has the same timetable in the charter. > > Randy mentioned it when we talked about the Paris timetable. > > It needs some clean-up before it can survive Bruce's famous > reviews. For the ABNF I just found a third potential issue: > > lang =3D ( 2*8ALPHA *[ "-" extlang ] ) / "*" > extlang =3D 3ALPHA / "*" > > lng-exa-*-exc-Latn can't be what you really want, how about: > > lang =3D ( 2*8ALPHA *3( "-" extlang )) / "*" > extlang =3D 3ALPHA > > Either "*" for the complete , or no "*" in this part. > Or do you want lng-exa-*-exc-Latn for matching ? Bye, Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 21:30:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di0GZ-0000VQ-Ee; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:30:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di0GY-0000VL-B0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:30:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA28926 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di0cv-0001ZE-Nc for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:54:07 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:30:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:30:40 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9020@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVwezcG8t3vumYTTC6gxag2NkU+UQABTGqA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 01:30:41.0134 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD0CA8E0:01C57080] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Notwithstanding my co-editor's points, I do track and update the = matching draft as appropriate and will update the matching draft with = the various fixes as necessary. However, I do agree that a Last Call on = Matching is a bad idea at this time. So: send us fixes and they'll be incorporated, but never in preference = to preparing the registry draft.=20 Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?13? 17:48 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 >=20 > Mark Davis wrote: >=20 > > The matching document has had not nearly the same review, > > nor has the same timetable in the charter. >=20 > Randy mentioned it when we talked about the Paris timetable. >=20 > It needs some clean-up before it can survive Bruce's famous > reviews. For the ABNF I just found a third potential issue: >=20 > lang =3D ( 2*8ALPHA *[ "-" extlang ] ) / "*" > extlang =3D 3ALPHA / "*" >=20 > lng-exa-*-exc-Latn can't be what you really want, how about: >=20 > lang =3D ( 2*8ALPHA *3( "-" extlang )) / "*" > extlang =3D 3ALPHA >=20 > Either "*" for the complete , or no "*" in this part. > Or do you want lng-exa-*-exc-Latn for matching ? Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 21:31:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di0HD-0000fN-JW; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:31:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di0HC-0000fI-Sm for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:31:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA28950 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di0dZ-0001Zw-7D for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:54:47 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5E1VMZc017486; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:31:22 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:31:21 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Message-ID: <20050614013121.GG4512@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <42AE0509.13DB@xyzzy.claranet.de> <001301c5706a$0ae4d3a0$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <42AE2936.59DF@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42AE2936.59DF@xyzzy.claranet.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann scripsit: > lng-exa-*-exc-Latn can't be what you really want, how about: No, it isn't: we want * or lng-* or lng-exa-* or lng-exa-exb-*. -- Long-short-short, long-short-short / Dactyls in dimeter, Verse form with choriambs / (Masculine rhyme): jcowan@reutershealth.com One sentence (two stanzas) / Hexasyllabically http://www.reutershealth.com Challenges poets who / Don't have the time. --robison who's at texas dot net _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:35:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1HT-0007DX-HR; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:35:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1HR-0007Cg-GY for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:35:57 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02648 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Di1C1-000125-Ip for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:30:21 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:30:21 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:30:21 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:34:25 +0200 Organization: Lines: 28 Message-ID: <42AE4231.5D0D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42AE0509.13DB@xyzzy.claranet.de> <001301c5706a$0ae4d3a0$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <42AE2936.59DF@xyzzy.claranet.de> <20050614013121.GG4512@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org John.Cowan wrote: >> lng-exa-*-exc-Latn can't be what you really want [...] > No, it isn't: > we want * or lng-* or lng-exa-* or lng-exa-exb-*. Okay, then let's try to fix it: lang = ( 2*8ALPHA *3( "-" extlang ) ) / "*" / ( 2*8ALPHA *2( "-" extlang ) "-*" ) extlang = 3ALPHA => "Bill's ABNF Parser No errors during parsing." ------------------------------------------------------------ Mark, I've no fresh ideas for the registry draft, my issues with 831...833 are already posted here, please read and / or answer these posts. I don't find issues in the proper order of priority, and of course I know that the registry draft is more important. So far only Peter and Randy commented, they apparently agree that "something" is still odd in draft -04. Doug apparently agreed that "frozen" Preferred-Values aren't optimal, and he found various minor nits around this issue. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:48:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1TI-0001Re-Um; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1TH-0001Qy-8b for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:11 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03112 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614024739.YRYM13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:47:39 -0400 Message-ID: <005a01c5708b$65c1ec60$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613160318.YDWQ17037.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:47:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > I agree with the suggestion that a new M.49 numeric ID should not be > registered immediately, but that some time be given to permit the ISO > 3166-MA to add a corresponding entry, if they're going to take such > action within a reasonable time. I'm not sure what that reasonable > time should be; one year seems like a long time, but I don't know how > much time they typically require. I have no problem with the theory here, but I think if we wanted to adopt such an approach, we would have to spell out the time frame rather precisely. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:48:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Tg-0001WS-5J; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Te-0001VF-Jo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:34 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03146 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614024803.YSIO17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:03 -0400 Message-ID: <005b01c5708b$74ea3bc0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613160318.YDWQ17037.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:47:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> If 003 is listed as "macro-geographical number" on their >> page we need no ticket, it's then simply correct. The >> last time I looked at their page that wasn't the case. >> >> IIRC you (?) intended to ask them what this footnote is >> supposed to mean, Web page typo or historic. Bye, Frank > > Are we rat-holing again on the details of the draft registry rather > than staying focused on the ID? I see Randy assigning a ticket number to issues involving the initial registry, and confirming that the draft registry needs to be ready soon along with the registry draft. So I thought this was a legitimate, focused, and timely thread. Before continuing it, though, I'd like confirmation from a co-chair. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:49:00 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1U4-0001Yl-2F; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1U2-0001Yf-S0 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:58 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03180 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614024827.YTGW13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:27 -0400 Message-ID: <005c01c5708b$83c7c680$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613160318.YDWQ17037.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] discussion of position of script subtag Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:48:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > A consensus on the position of the script subtag within the sequence > of subtags was reached long ago. Further discussion at this time is > not helpful when we need to be driving toward stability. I request > that any further discussion of this topic cease immediately. Another +1. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:49:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Ub-0001ek-6Q; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Ua-0001e9-22 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:32 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03191 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614024858.DRFA8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:58 -0400 Message-ID: <005d01c5708b$963ef2c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613160318.YDWQ17037.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:48:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > There is such a thing as a verbal language expressed using signs; e.g. > signed English. There may well be a need to have a tag to make this > distinction. I think a variant subtag for this purpose would be > satisfactory; e.g. "en-signed". In fact, I think this should be one of the first variant subtags requested. It opens the door for sensible tagging of the 16 signed spoken languages listed on Michael Everson's page, and possibly others. > There can be varietal linguistic distinctions -- dialect -- between > written versus spoken forms of a language, and some user may have a > need for tags to reflect such a distinction. What must be understood > is that this such a distinction between linguistic varieties is > orthogonal to the mode of expression: verbal versus writing. Again, > for the linguistic distinction, variant subtags are a reasonable and > appropriate. For the distinction between modes of expression, Mark has > pointed out that "Zxxx" can be used as a script subtag to indicate > that the information is unwritten (hence assumed to be verbal). What I don't understand about this whole discussion is why anyone would want to use a script subtag -- 'Zxxx' or anything else -- for spoken content in the first place. It's not like script subtags are ever required. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:49:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Ul-0001i5-CY; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Uk-0001hU-6O for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03195 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di1r5-0004nr-Ss for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:12:49 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:49:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:49:22 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9038@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVwifaqhf6fiJDFTIa3a4mbhx/StQAAOkzg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 02:49:22.0432 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB299000:01C5708B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I think this fails to capture it. What you want is for sequential = subtags (extlang and variant) to end in either a concrete tag or a "*". = That is, you cannot say "es-Latn-US-*-scouse", but you can say = "en-Latn-US-scouse-*". Otherwise certain matching schemes don't work = right. Same for extlangs. In fact, extlangs don't make any sense if you give = xx-*-yyy (yyy has to have a very specific prefix, so you have to specify = it). Thus: Lang =3D 2*8(ALPHA) / extlang / "*" Extlang =3D 0*2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" 3ALPHA / "*"] Slightly icky, but essentially correct. I include the "0" here for = illustration (it won't appear in the actual ABNF). Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?13? 19:34 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 >=20 > John.Cowan wrote: >=20 > >> lng-exa-*-exc-Latn can't be what you really want > [...] > > No, it isn't: > > we want * or lng-* or lng-exa-* or lng-exa-exb-*. >=20 > Okay, then let's try to fix it: >=20 > lang =3D ( 2*8ALPHA *3( "-" extlang ) ) / "*" / > ( 2*8ALPHA *2( "-" extlang ) "-*" ) > extlang =3D 3ALPHA >=20 > =3D> "Bill's ABNF Parser No errors during parsing." >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Mark, I've no fresh ideas for the registry draft, my issues > with 831...833 are already posted here, please read and / or > answer these posts. I don't find issues in the proper order > of priority, and of course I know that the registry draft is > more important. So far only Peter and Randy commented, they > apparently agree that "something" is still odd in draft -04. >=20 > Doug apparently agreed that "frozen" Preferred-Values aren't > optimal, and he found various minor nits around this issue. >=20 > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:49:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1V0-0001ly-Qy; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Uy-0001lZ-T7 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:56 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03255 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614024925.YUYZ13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:25 -0400 Message-ID: <005e01c5708b$a5fe5200$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613213403.XOMS2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:49:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Preferred-Value added to registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Okay, I found a stupid bug in my quick and dirty script, now > it outputs the comments shown below, no problems, bye, Frank > > IN (2004-07-06) => ID (1989-01-01) > IW (2004-07-06) => HE (1989-01-01) > JI (2004-07-06) => YI (1989-01-01) > JW (2005-01-17) => JV (2001-08-13) > SH (2004-07-06) => ?? (2000-02-18) > -BU (2004-07-06) => -MM (1989-12-05) > -DD (2004-07-06) => -DE (1990-10-30) > -FX (2004-07-06) => -FR (1997-07-14) > -NT (2004-07-06) => ??? (1993-07-12) > -SU (2004-07-06) => ??? (1992-08-30) > -TP (2004-07-06) => -TL (2002-11-15) > -YD (2004-07-06) => -YE (1990-08-14) > -YU (2005-01-01) => -CS (2003-07-23) > -ZR (2004-07-06) => -CD (1997-07-14) > [9]57 (sub)tags in 4954 lines, 249 xrefs okay Is this a complaint that the "Added" date of the deprecated subtags comes after their "Deprecated" date? "Added" dates are the date the subtag was added to the LTRU registry (except for grandfathered and redundant whole-tags, which bear the date the tag was added to the RFC 1766/3066 tag registry). These dates will probably all be moved forward to Date B. "Deprecated" dates, for those subtags that have them in the initial registry, are the date the subtag was deprecated in the core ISO standard. Subtags deprecated after Date B will bear that date. Mismatches between these two concepts are not considered errors. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:50:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1VZ-0001u0-28; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1VX-0001tl-Im for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:31 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03382 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614024949.DSLY8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:49 -0400 Message-ID: <005f01c5708b$b48f9180$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613213403.XOMS2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:49:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Don't forget the matching draft, and the initial registry. > > If you want the latter to be "last called" and approved before > Paris, with all missing Suppress-Scripts discussed and fixed, > then you have a serious problem. All I can do is to post the > current Suppress-Scripts based on Doug's lstreg.txt 2005-06-05 It is a known fact that the set of language subtags without a Suppress-Script is not complete, and probably never will be. (Not to mention the languages like Chinese for which Suppress-Script is explicitly not desired.) The supporters of Suppress-Script, who carried the day, did not regard this as a problem. This is done and over with. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:50:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Vq-0001xu-7A; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Vp-0001xR-4Y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:49 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03390 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614025017.YWNE13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:17 -0400 Message-ID: <006001c5708b$c5957a80$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050614004325.TLCA19545.mta4.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:50:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Hi, if Randy really wants to "last call" the matching draft > together with the registry draft I don't think he said that. The matching draft isn't due for Last Call until August. > it's time to find some nits: > ... > - the credits are dubious, IIRC only Doug, Ira, Ned, John, > and Randy contributed to the matching draft (and Ira isn't > listed). And I didn't contribute much. As I've always said, matching is not an area of expertise for me. The "special thanks" credit to me might be considered particularly irrelevant for the matching draft. But if this is the worst the matching draft has to offer, for the small amount of WG review it's had, it's doing pretty well. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:51:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1WJ-00025W-BN; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:51:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1WI-000250-El for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:51:18 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03392 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614025046.DTLM8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:46 -0400 Message-ID: <006101c5708b$d63fd600$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050614004325.TLCA19545.mta4.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:50:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > There are others that look very easy to fill in: > > cu Church Slavic -> Cyrillic I was thinking maybe also Cyrs. > There are many more, similar ones. If they aren't at least 99%, they're not supposed to go under Suppress-Script. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 22:53:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Yk-0002f7-FV; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:53:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1Yi-0002ec-KU for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:53:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA04193 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di1v7-000558-Q2 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:16:58 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:53:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:53:38 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB903A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVwi5Fa9ZmB//JEQiK2mc9YX36Z4wAAGHpg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 02:53:39.0133 (UTC) FILETIME=[442B06D0:01C5708C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0691817253==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:00:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1et-0004lQ-0Q; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:00:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1er-0004l5-PA for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:00:09 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA06771 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614025938.ZKEY17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:59:38 -0400 Message-ID: <007601c5708d$130dd360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050614025112.FIUH13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:59:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Doug apparently agreed that "frozen" Preferred-Values aren't > optimal, and he found various minor nits around this issue. I don't like having to follow the daisy chain from TP to TL to TE to whatever, or having to make my programs do so. But I'm not going to fight to the death over it. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:10:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1oy-0007WZ-8V; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:10:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1ow-0007Vx-Fl for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:10:34 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07338 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Di1k4-0003mH-KL for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:05:32 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:05:32 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:05:32 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:05:31 +0200 Organization: Lines: 17 Message-ID: <42AE497B.73B5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050613213403.XOMS2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005e01c5708b$a5fe5200$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Preferred-Value added to registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: >> it outputs the comments shown below, no problems [...] > Is this a complaint that the "Added" date of the deprecated > subtags comes after their "Deprecated" date? From my POV "no problems". My script just lists these cases as "manual checking might be necessary, a _deprecated_ subtag was apparently _added_ after the preferred subtag". Mark and Addison discussed dates in an old "canonical forever" thread. I just wanted to be sure that it's really no problem, and not only my POV. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:14:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1tD-0008Jb-Mf; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:14:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1tB-0008IV-Hs for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:14:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07452 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di2FZ-00066i-RN for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:38:07 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:14:46 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:14:46 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9048@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVwjT38XIbLeQsmSTGRa7KbMDyXVAAAdMjQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 03:14:46.0580 (UTC) FILETIME=[37A01740:01C5708F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0324331925==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0324331925== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0324331925==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:21:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1z7-0001UP-Mi; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:21:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di1z6-0001UK-Ds for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:21:04 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07772 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Di1uF-0004ZL-3v for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:16:03 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:16:03 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:16:03 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:20:19 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42AE4CF3.126C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050614025112.FIUH13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <007601c5708d$130dd360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] multi-hop preferences (was: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I'm not going to fight to the death over it. Nor me. Assuming that Addison and Mark want to keep this as it is you found two (?) statements in -04 needing to be fixed for such "multi-hop" preferences. And otherwise I proposed a way to "flatten" preferences by updating them. They can toss a coin, but IMO they can't do nothing at all. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:33:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2BK-0004UJ-Sd; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:33:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2BJ-0004TO-1e for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:33:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA08565 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di2Xh-0006rm-FP for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:56:50 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:33:29 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:33:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:33:42 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Thread-Index: AcVwi7/9Wew/H9oeQTqf7owV2g4WCAABPomA From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 03:33:29.0442 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4E73C20:01C57091] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > In fact, I think this should be one of the first variant subtags > requested. It opens the door for sensible tagging of the 16 signed > spoken languages listed on Michael Everson's page, and possibly others. What page? (I can't find anything on signed languages at evertype.com.) > What I don't understand about this whole discussion is why anyone would > want to use a script subtag -- 'Zxxx' or anything else -- for spoken > content in the first place. It's not like script subtags are ever > required. No, they're not; but if someone wanted a way to explicitly indicate that some content was (say) verbal -- unwritten -- English, they could use "en-Zxxx" in contrast to "en". Just like someone *could* use "en-Latn" to explicitly distinguish English in Latin orthography from something else. I don't think there'd be any great need for it, but someone could do it if it met a need. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:36:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2E3-00052n-6F; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:36:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2E1-00052g-Ug for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:36:30 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10702 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Di28u-0005df-Vm for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:31:12 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:31:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:31:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:35:07 +0200 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: <42AE506B.102@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9038@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Lang = 2*8(ALPHA) / extlang / "*" > Extlang = 0*2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" 3ALPHA / "*"] > Slightly icky, but essentially correct Okay, that will be clearer and better than my idea, but it's apparently not yet correct, how about this: extlang = *2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" ( 3ALPHA / "*" )] You want "-*" at the end, not only "*" as in lng-exa-exb* Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 13 23:54:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2Vj-00014s-9C; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:54:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2Vh-00014L-OD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:54:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12716 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di2s6-00083f-I8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:17:55 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5E3sYxD018005; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:54:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:54:33 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Message-ID: <20050614035433.GI4512@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable scripsit: > > In fact, I think this should be one of the first variant subtags > > requested. It opens the door for sensible tagging of the 16 signed > > spoken languages listed on Michael Everson's page, and possibly > others. > > What page? (I can't find anything on signed languages at evertype.com.) http://evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html , near the bottom. -- In my last lifetime, John Cowan I believed in reincarnation; http://www.ccil.org/~cowan in this lifetime, jcowan@reutershealth.com I don't. --Thiagi http://www.reutershealth.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 00:07:05 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2hd-00047N-Nc; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:07:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di2hc-00046l-B9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:07:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13357 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di340-0008SE-45 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 00:30:14 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:06:50 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:06:50 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB905A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVwkpOm7nXu1HtOR+CQoR4rFK8wXgAA93Wg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 04:06:50.0465 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D9B1D10:01C57096] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Yep, the hyphen goes as you say. I'll correct the ABNF. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?13? 20:35 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > Lang =3D 2*8(ALPHA) / extlang / "*" > > Extlang =3D 0*2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" 3ALPHA / "*"] >=20 > > Slightly icky, but essentially correct >=20 > Okay, that will be clearer and better than my idea, but it's > apparently not yet correct, how about this: >=20 > extlang =3D *2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" ( 3ALPHA / "*" )] >=20 > You want "-*" at the end, not only "*" as in lng-exa-exb* >=20 > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 01:11:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di3hp-00024W-5E; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:11:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di3hn-000248-HD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:11:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18569 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from icu-project.org ([66.160.189.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di447-0002tR-L2 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:34:30 -0400 Received: from markdavis ([24.23.194.196]) by icu-project.org for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:05:13 -0700 Message-ID: <013e01c5709f$78821870$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB903A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:11:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id BAA18569 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I like that approach. >We register NO M.49 subtags that are not macro-geographic regions =3D> We initially register NO M.49 subtags that are not macro-geographic regions =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Doug Ewell" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 19:53 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jer= sey > How about fixing the problem in a more rule-oriented fashion. > > We register NO M.49 subtags that are not macro-geographic regions. We permit them, by rule, to be registered via the registration process if someone feels the need for them and ISO 3166 has failed to act (for whate= ver reason). > > That neatly disposes of all the M.49/ISO 3166 mismatches, now and in th= e future, in one go. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org= ] On > > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5 19:47 > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jer= sey > > > > Peter Constable wrote: > > > > > I agree with the suggestion that a new M.49 numeric ID should not b= e > > > registered immediately, but that some time be given to permit the I= SO > > > 3166-MA to add a corresponding entry, if they're going to take such > > > action within a reasonable time. I'm not sure what that reasonable > > > time should be; one year seems like a long time, but I don't know h= ow > > > much time they typically require. > > > > I have no problem with the theory here, but I think if we wanted to > > adopt such an approach, we would have to spell out the time frame rat= her > > precisely. > > > > -- > > Doug Ewell > > Fullerton, California > > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 02:08:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di4au-0006yN-Js; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:08:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di4at-0006y5-4A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:08:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA29218 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta11.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di4xI-000591-Ur for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:31:26 -0400 Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614060759.GJWS13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:07:59 -0400 Message-ID: <008501c570a7$63d0ba00$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9048@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:07:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: >> I don't like having to follow the daisy chain from TP to TL to TE to >> whatever, or having to make my programs do so. But I'm not going to >> fight to the death over it. > > Your programs aren't actually required to. Only your registry compiler > is required to actually follow the chain. Since this is a one-time, > off-line process, it can be as ugly and inefficient as necessary. That's good, because I had assumed that the validator would have to report on the whole chain. Just TP to TE is a lot nicer, and what the user expects anyway. My registry-to-header converter is already ugly and inefficient, so it should fit the bill nicely. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 02:12:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di4dT-0007VS-Fo; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:10:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di4dR-0007VJ-Sc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:10:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01818 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Di4zr-0005Fz-Pj for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:34:05 -0400 Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614061038.HRIJ17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:10:38 -0400 Message-ID: <008801c570a7$c3bcb220$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB903A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <013e01c5709f$78821870$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:10:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I like that approach. > > >We register NO M.49 subtags that are not macro-geographic regions > => We initially register NO M.49 subtags that are not macro-geographic > regions I'm good with that too. For those who don't have the draft registry committed to memory, that means we don't register 200 (which we already agreed on), and we also don't register 830 or 833 (which are currently there) or 831 or 832 (which aren't). -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 02:21:09 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di4nN-0001XP-5i; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:21:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di4nL-0001Vi-7Q for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:21:07 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA11844 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614062035.IAMR17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 02:20:35 -0400 Message-ID: <008d01c570a9$245bb120$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050614033806.HRFZ17037.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:20:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: >> In fact, I think this should be one of the first variant subtags >> requested. It opens the door for sensible tagging of the 16 signed >> spoken languages listed on Michael Everson's page, and possibly >> others. > > What page? (I can't find anything on signed languages at > evertype.com.) http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html Note that none of the three-part tags in Tables A and B, nor any in Table C, would be valid in RFC 3066bis. The ones in Table A are already grandfathered. >> It's not like script subtags are ever required. > > No, they're not; but if someone wanted a way to explicitly indicate > that some content was (say) verbal -- unwritten -- English, they could > use "en-Zxxx" in contrast to "en". Just like someone *could* use > "en-Latn" to explicitly distinguish English in Latin orthography from > something else. I don't think there'd be any great need for it, but > someone could do it if it met a need. OK; the way the discussion was headed, it sounded like this would be a common occurrence. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 04:19:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di6do-0004Wl-JG; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:19:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Di6dm-0004VX-EM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:19:22 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA20987 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Di6YT-0004iM-N4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:13:53 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.62 ([212.82.251.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:13:53 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.62 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:13:53 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:17:24 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42AE9294.6B45@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB903A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <013e01c5709f$78821870$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <008801c570a7$c3bcb220$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.62 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > that means we don't register 200 (which we already agreed > on), and we also don't register 830 or 833 (which are > currently there) or 831 or 832 (which aren't). Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until doomesday. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 10:08:38 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiC5m-00063U-BQ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:08:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiC5l-00063O-0j for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:08:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20144 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiCSD-00033q-Je for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:31:51 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:08:24 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:08:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:08:38 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVwn7RVXuATP83nSAeW7O/B7azO0AASsf1g From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 14:08:24.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[87214590:01C570EA] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Mark Davis > I like that approach. >=20 > >We register NO M.49 subtags that are not macro-geographic regions > =3D> We initially register NO M.49 subtags that are not = macro-geographic > regions +1 Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 10:16:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiCDR-0007TY-Lg; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:16:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiCDQ-0007TT-6e for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:16:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21203 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiCZu-0003bj-Ae for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:39:47 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:16:21 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:16:15 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:16:35 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Thread-Index: AcVwqVSlmM672LnVTD2bdHt2C7VJgAAQWI4Q From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 14:16:15.0350 (UTC) FILETIME=[9FF9C960:01C570EB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html >=20 > Note that none of the three-part tags in Tables A and B, nor any in > Table C, would be valid in RFC 3066bis. The ones in Table A are already > grandfathered. I would discourage people from using any of these, but especially the three-part monstrosities. (I can just imagine us having tried to fit these into our scheme: "If the first subtag is "sgn" and the second subtag is from ISO 3166-1, a third subtag of the form 2alpha or 2num ...) Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 10:19:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiCGf-0008H6-GY; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:19:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiCGe-0008H1-IV for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:19:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21720 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiCd9-0003n4-MK for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:43:08 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:19:43 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:19:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:19:56 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Thread-Index: AcVwlM5e+i7Mw+RYR6aVHKCrqUftGAAU6Iwg From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 14:19:36.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[180FAB40:01C570EC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: John.Cowan [mailto:jcowan@reutershealth.com] > > > In fact, I think this should be one of the first variant subtags > > > requested. It opens the door for sensible tagging of the 16 signed > > > spoken languages listed on Michael Everson's page, and possibly > > others. > > > > What page? (I can't find anything on signed languages at evertype.com.) >=20 > http://evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html , near the bottom. I didn't think to what Doug was referring to under the heading "ISO TC46/SC4 and ISO TC37/SC2 Language codes" since I know full well there's nothing like that in ISO 639. So, sure, a subtag "signed" could be registered to deal with "signed Afrikaans" etc. And when we get to 3066ter, I'll be inclined to deprecate all those "sgn-" registrations in favour of ISO 639-3 alpha3 IDs (or perhaps tags like "sgn-ase" if people insist on a way to reflect the modality) -- too bad we can't do that before we have to grandfather them. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 10:42:52 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiCcu-0003LP-L7; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:42:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiCct-0003LJ-09 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:42:51 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23428 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050614144213.ZGWQ13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:42:13 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c570ef$39a5f7c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:42:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> that means we don't register 200 (which we already agreed >> on), and we also don't register 830 or 833 (which are >> currently there) or 831 or 832 (which aren't). > > Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody > wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 > registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just > needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until > doomesday. That's what I was saying; there needs to be a rule, or at least a really strong guideline, as to how long the Subtag Reviewer (more properly, the process) waits after the UN code is assigned. Otherwise, one person will end up thinking they have to wait a year, while another will think a week is good enough. That will attract too much controversy. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 11:23:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDFr-0003F8-Ay; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:23:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDFp-0003F0-Ee for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:23:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26856 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiDcE-0007u9-Ro for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:46:16 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:22:48 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB91B1@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVw77+QL1QRN2dhSTyKfMee6IC+3QAAqZiQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 15:22:48.0180 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBE34B40:01C570F4] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0141099626==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0141099626== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0141099626==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 11:27:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDKH-0004h5-O4; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:27:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDKG-0004gx-AV for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:27:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27187 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiDgk-0008Fx-VG for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:50:56 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:27:29 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:27:28 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:26:42 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVw78CZQsshEyJYSriekqXdd27+CQABFVMA From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 15:27:28.0862 (UTC) FILETIME=[932FF7E0:01C570F5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody > > wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 > > registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just > > needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until > > doomesday. >=20 > That's what I was saying; there needs to be a rule, or at least a really > strong guideline, as to how long the Subtag Reviewer (more properly, the > process) waits after the UN code is assigned. Otherwise, one person > will end up thinking they have to wait a year, while another will think > a week is good enough. That will attract too much controversy. Is this something that can be worked out by consensus on the IETF-languages list? I'm disinclined to specify a timeline in *this* document for something that's dependent on processes not under our control and that may change. We may specify three months, but then the 3166MA may establish a process that takes only two weeks, in which case people will be forced to wait unnecessarily; or we may specify four weeks and then the 3166MA may later establish a process that takes six weeks, in which case we'd be forced to do what we regret. (Just as right now we can't register "gsw" just due to technicalities even though it's what we'd want.) What we *can* do without concern is specify the kind of result we consider best. Saying that we do not automatically register M.49 non-region codes is one example of this, and saying that people are expected to submit a request for inclusion in ISO 639 before we register a lang subtag is another. We can say that, for M.49 non-region codes, it is expected that a reasonable effort must be made to determine whether a corresponding 2alpha ID will be assigned by the 3166MA before an M.49 non-region code can be registered. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 12:04:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDuD-0002jL-Nl; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDuC-0002j4-7p for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29931 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.145]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiEGg-00022r-5A for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:28:04 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5EG4Xn9024794 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:33 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5EG4Whh228934 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:32 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5EG4WZN002106 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:32 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-105-101.mts.ibm.com [9.48.105.101]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5EG4T71001949; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:32 -0400 Message-ID: <024a01c570fa$bf4f3020$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:04:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e5.ny.us.ibm.com id j5EG4Xn9024794 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I like Peter's approach, rather than a time limit. >We can say that, for M.49 non-region codes, it is expected that a reasonable effort must be made to determine whether a corresponding 2alpha ID will be assigned by the 3166MA before an M.49 non-region code can be registered. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 08:26 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jer= sey > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody > > wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 > > registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just > > needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until > > doomesday. > > That's what I was saying; there needs to be a rule, or at least a really > strong guideline, as to how long the Subtag Reviewer (more properly, the > process) waits after the UN code is assigned. Otherwise, one person > will end up thinking they have to wait a year, while another will think > a week is good enough. That will attract too much controversy. Is this something that can be worked out by consensus on the IETF-languages list? I'm disinclined to specify a timeline in *this* document for something that's dependent on processes not under our control and that may change. We may specify three months, but then the 3166MA may establish a process that takes only two weeks, in which case people will be forced to wait unnecessarily; or we may specify four weeks and then the 3166MA may later establish a process that takes six weeks, in which case we'd be forced to do what we regret. (Just as right now we can't register "gsw" just due to technicalities even though it's what we'd want.) What we *can* do without concern is specify the kind of result we consider best. Saying that we do not automatically register M.49 non-region codes is one example of this, and saying that people are expected to submit a request for inclusion in ISO 639 before we register a lang subtag is another. We can say that, for M.49 non-region codes, it is expected that a reasonable effort must be made to determine whether a corresponding 2alpha ID will be assigned by the 3166MA before an M.49 non-region code can be registered. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 12:04:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDuD-0002jj-UU; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiDuC-0002j5-8J for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29928 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.142]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiEGg-00022q-1U for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:28:04 -0400 Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5EG4W3L001255 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:32 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5EG4Whh236970 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:32 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5EG4VHP002089 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:31 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-105-101.mts.ibm.com [9.48.105.101]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5EG4T70001949; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:04:31 -0400 Message-ID: <024901c570fa$bf08d850$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <001901c570ef$39a5f7c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:00:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e2.ny.us.ibm.com id j5EG4W3L001255 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org How about 180 days. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 07:42 Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> that means we don't register 200 (which we already agreed > >> on), and we also don't register 830 or 833 (which are > >> currently there) or 831 or 832 (which aren't). > > > > Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody > > wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 > > registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just > > needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until > > doomesday. > > That's what I was saying; there needs to be a rule, or at least a reall= y > strong guideline, as to how long the Subtag Reviewer (more properly, th= e > process) waits after the UN code is assigned. Otherwise, one person > will end up thinking they have to wait a year, while another will think > a week is good enough. That will attract too much controversy. > > -- > Doug Ewell > Fullerton, California > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 12:14:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiE1a-0004Dy-CO; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:12:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiE1Y-0004Do-8o for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:12:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00672 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiEO3-0002dn-7p for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:35:40 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:12:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:12:06 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9235@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVw78CZQsshEyJYSriekqXdd27+CQABFVMAAACZBPA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 16:12:07.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[CFD126A0:01C570FB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org +1 I'm updating the editor's copy with some proposed text to handle this = and will point out the textual additions on the list for discussion when = that is posted. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 2005?6?14? 8:27 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and > Jersey >=20 > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > > Behalf Of Doug Ewell >=20 >=20 > > > Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody > > > wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 > > > registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just > > > needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until > > > doomesday. > > > > That's what I was saying; there needs to be a rule, or at least a > really > > strong guideline, as to how long the Subtag Reviewer (more properly, > the > > process) waits after the UN code is assigned. Otherwise, one person > > will end up thinking they have to wait a year, while another will > think > > a week is good enough. That will attract too much controversy. >=20 > Is this something that can be worked out by consensus on the > IETF-languages list? I'm disinclined to specify a timeline in *this* > document for something that's dependent on processes not under our > control and that may change. We may specify three months, but then the > 3166MA may establish a process that takes only two weeks, in which = case > people will be forced to wait unnecessarily; or we may specify four > weeks and then the 3166MA may later establish a process that takes six > weeks, in which case we'd be forced to do what we regret. (Just as = right > now we can't register "gsw" just due to technicalities even though = it's > what we'd want.) >=20 > What we *can* do without concern is specify the kind of result we > consider best. Saying that we do not automatically register M.49 > non-region codes is one example of this, and saying that people are > expected to submit a request for inclusion in ISO 639 before we = register > a lang subtag is another. We can say that, for M.49 non-region codes, = it > is expected that a reasonable effort must be made to determine whether = a > corresponding 2alpha ID will be assigned by the 3166MA before an M.49 > non-region code can be registered. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Peter Constable >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 12:14:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiE3M-00058T-NF; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:14:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiE3L-00058F-3T for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:14:15 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00991 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiDxT-0003iQ-2C for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:08:11 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.62]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:08:11 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:08:11 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:11:18 +0200 Organization: Lines: 42 Message-ID: <42AF01A6.5F83@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB91B1@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-62.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > we mirror ISO 3166 except for > (a) miscellaneous regions individually registered for which > no ISO 3166 code is assigned Okay, cases like 831..833 or the hypothetical "888 Somaliland". > (b) reassignments on the part of ISO 3166 (covered by the > rules on that). The hypothetical TE" replacing TL ? No, that would be simply mirrored (I hope). A hypothetical "BU" conflicting with our old BU, yes, that's covered by the rules. > Simple, I think. Probably, but I'm more dense than usual today. We still need a rule delaying your case (a) for the hypothetical "888" if it gets SX later. Peter said a fixed delay is bad, e.g. 3 months makes no sense if SX is available after 2 weeks. I don't see the problem with ISO 3166-1 being faster than we fear. We only need a delay for the registration of UN numbers without alpha-2 code. Otherwise - conflict or not - the case is clear, either add alpha-2 (no conflict) or number (conflict, e.g. BU). Peter's idea "consensus by the language tag list" might work. And what do we expect if somebody wants 831..833 one day after date-B, while others prefer to wait for a "nicer" GG, IM, JE ? Are they allowed to fix it if they get it "wrong" ? In other words if they first give up waiting and register 831..833, but later GG, IM, JE are available. Can they then register these alpha-2 codes in addition to 831..833 ? I certainly hope so. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 12:48:44 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiEai-0004C1-7s; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiEag-0004Bw-Tc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03322 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiExC-0004xS-EW for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:11:59 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5EGmS4L021176; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:27 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:48:27 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Mark Davis Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Message-ID: <20050614164826.GA2392@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <024a01c570fa$bf4f3020$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <024a01c570fa$bf4f3020$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mark Davis scripsit: > I like Peter's approach, rather than a time limit. +1 -- De plichten van een docent zijn divers, John Cowan die van het gehoor ook. jcowan@reutershealth.com --Edsger Dijkstra http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 13:37:44 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiFM8-0004P3-32; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:37:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiFM6-0004Oy-Kd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:37:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07726 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiFid-000827-CE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:00:59 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:37:26 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:37:25 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB92E8@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVw/GMY43+E9O58SH6jea/JHspJwwACMyfg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 17:37:26.0463 (UTC) FILETIME=[BAEB74F0:01C57107] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Responses below. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?14? 9:11 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and = Jersey >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > we mirror ISO 3166 except for >=20 > > (a) miscellaneous regions individually registered for which > > no ISO 3166 code is assigned >=20 > Okay, cases like 831..833 or the hypothetical "888 Somaliland". [Addison Phillips]=20 Right. >=20 > > (b) reassignments on the part of ISO 3166 (covered by the > > rules on that). >=20 > The hypothetical TE" replacing TL ? No, that would be simply > mirrored (I hope). A hypothetical "BU" conflicting with our > old BU, yes, that's covered by the rules. [Addison Phillips]=20 "Reassignments" means the BU case, not the TL->TE case. The latter is = handled by the daisy chain. >=20 > > Simple, I think. >=20 > Probably, but I'm more dense than usual today. We still need > a rule delaying your case (a) for the hypothetical "888" if it > gets SX later. [Addison Phillips]=20 The first delay is built in: we don't take automatic action on UN M.49 = codes. This is now spelled out in the draft. Only if someone tries to = register "888" will any timing come into effect. Mirroring of ISO 3166, by contrast, *is* automatic. If SX is assigned, = then it appears in the registry and "888" is no longer valid to = register. I added this text to spell it out: UN numeric codes for countries or areas with ambiguous ISO 3166 = alpha-2 codes as defined in MUST be = entered into the registry according to the rules in that section and = MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region = for which they are defined. UN numeric codes for countries or areas for which there is an = associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code in the registry MUST NOT be entered = into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. Note that = the ISO 3166-based subtag in the registry MUST actually be associated = with the UN M.49 code in question. >=20 > Peter said a fixed delay is bad, e.g. 3 months makes no sense > if SX is available after 2 weeks. I don't see the problem with > ISO 3166-1 being faster than we fear. [Addison Phillips]=20 The problem would be if ISO 3166 were taking a long time and the UN M.49 = code were requested in an attempt to get around them. >=20 > We only need a delay for the registration of UN numbers without > alpha-2 code. Otherwise - conflict or not - the case is clear, > either add alpha-2 (no conflict) or number (conflict, e.g. BU). [Addison Phillips]=20 Yes, exactly so. >=20 > Peter's idea "consensus by the language tag list" might work. [Addison Phillips]=20 Actually, I think that was the heart of my idea :-). >=20 > And what do we expect if somebody wants 831..833 one day after > date-B, while others prefer to wait for a "nicer" GG, IM, JE ? [Addison Phillips]=20 That's the question. >=20 > Are they allowed to fix it if they get it "wrong" ? In other > words if they first give up waiting and register 831..833, but > later GG, IM, JE are available. Can they then register these > alpha-2 codes in addition to 831..833 ? I certainly hope so. >=20 Currently, no. I suppose that (since nothing forbids it) the UN M.49 = record could get a Preferred-Value that points to the ISO 3166 code.=20 This issue would be: consider an area that gets an UN M.49 code. This = code gets registered via the process. Sometime later the ISO 3166 code = gets registered and the UN M.49 code gets deprecated and mapped. Then = the place changes its name and gets assigned the alpha2 code 'BU' as a = result. Now what happens? Our escape hatch is effectively blocked. The alternative is to forbid registration of UN M.49 codes "on a whim" = via the registration process altogether. The escape hatch can never get = blocked in this way. Given that we're talking about the Channel Islands = as the *sole* representative of this, it doesn't break my heart to do = this. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 13:41:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiFQ9-0005Da-7K; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:41:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiFQ8-0005DV-4T for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:41:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08185 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiFmf-0008Po-4A for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:05:09 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:41:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:41:42 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB92EF@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVw78CZQsshEyJYSriekqXdd27+CQABFVMAAATuzbA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 17:41:42.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[53BADF40:01C57108] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Notwithstanding my last response to Frank, I embodied the time limit = differently in the draft at present. That is, I read the time limit as = pertaining only to the registration of UN M.49 codes, not to ISO 3166 = codes. If ISO 3166 acts, then the UN M.49 code cannot be registered (but = you don't need it anyway). If they fail to act for six months, then the = UN M.49 code can be registered (on the two week waiting period for = registrations, not on an additional six month delay). But forbidding all such registrations might be a better move (see = response to Frank for why). UN M.49 codes are the escape hatch for ISO = 3166 reassignments, not an alternate scheme. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 2005?6?14? 8:27 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and > Jersey >=20 > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > > Behalf Of Doug Ewell >=20 >=20 > > > Okay, ready to go for date-B. And afterwards, if somebody > > > wants them ? The tag reviewer needs a way to delay UN M.49 > > > registration requests for some time (mabye ISO 3166-1 just > > > needs some time to find a new alpha-2 code), but not until > > > doomesday. > > > > That's what I was saying; there needs to be a rule, or at least a > really > > strong guideline, as to how long the Subtag Reviewer (more properly, > the > > process) waits after the UN code is assigned. Otherwise, one person > > will end up thinking they have to wait a year, while another will > think > > a week is good enough. That will attract too much controversy. >=20 > Is this something that can be worked out by consensus on the > IETF-languages list? I'm disinclined to specify a timeline in *this* > document for something that's dependent on processes not under our > control and that may change. We may specify three months, but then the > 3166MA may establish a process that takes only two weeks, in which = case > people will be forced to wait unnecessarily; or we may specify four > weeks and then the 3166MA may later establish a process that takes six > weeks, in which case we'd be forced to do what we regret. (Just as = right > now we can't register "gsw" just due to technicalities even though = it's > what we'd want.) >=20 > What we *can* do without concern is specify the kind of result we > consider best. Saying that we do not automatically register M.49 > non-region codes is one example of this, and saying that people are > expected to submit a request for inclusion in ISO 639 before we = register > a lang subtag is another. We can say that, for M.49 non-region codes, = it > is expected that a reasonable effort must be made to determine whether = a > corresponding 2alpha ID will be assigned by the 3166MA before an M.49 > non-region code can be registered. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Peter Constable >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 14:22:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiG3o-0003lO-VU; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:22:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiG3o-0003jw-6M for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:22:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14989 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiGQH-00044V-O7 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:46:07 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:22:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:22:31 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9360@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVwkpOm7nXu1HtOR+CQoR4rFK8wXgAA93WgAB3D/9A= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 18:22:32.0878 (UTC) FILETIME=[08119CE0:01C5710E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Note: there was a final flaw in my proposed ABNF. Here is the fully = corrected one: extended-language-range =3D grandfathered / privateuse / range range =3D ( lang [ "-" script ] [ "-" region ] *( "-" variant )=20 [ "-" privateuse ] ) lang =3D 2*8ALPHA / extlang / "*" extlang =3D 2*3ALPHA *2("-" 3ALPHA) ("-" ( 3ALPHA / "*" )) script =3D 4ALPHA / "*" region =3D 2ALPHA / 3DIGIT / "*" variant =3D 5*8alphanum / ( DIGIT 3alphanum ) / "*" privateuse =3D ( "x" / "X" ) 1*( "-" ( 1*8alphanum ) ) grandfathered =3D 1*3ALPHA 1*2( "-" ( 2*8alphanum ) ) alphanum =3D ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) The flaw was that extlang has to have a primary language subtag and it = must be either an alpha2 or alpha3. (The rule 'lang' handles "*" in the = first position.) It may then be followed by up to three extlang subtags. = It MUST end with either a concrete subtag or a "*".=20 Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > Sent: 2005?6?13? 21:07 > To: Frank Ellermann; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 >=20 > Yep, the hyphen goes as you say. I'll correct the ABNF. >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > > Sent: 2005?6?13? 20:35 > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 > > > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > > > Lang =3D 2*8(ALPHA) / extlang / "*" > > > Extlang =3D 0*2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" 3ALPHA / "*"] > > > > > Slightly icky, but essentially correct > > > > Okay, that will be clearer and better than my idea, but it's > > apparently not yet correct, how about this: > > > > extlang =3D *2("-" 3ALPHA) ["-" ( 3ALPHA / "*" )] > > > > You want "-*" at the end, not only "*" as in lng-exa-exb* > > > > Bye, Frank > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 14:35:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiGGM-0006lw-42; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:35:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiGGJ-0006lr-Bw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:35:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16382 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiGcq-0005Ln-G8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:59:05 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:35:37 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates forthe63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:35:36 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2160@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates forthe63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France Thread-Index: AcVwd8ISDsFhc8y6TamlRHGUYncxfQAlumsw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 18:35:37.0331 (UTC) FILETIME=[DBA3A430:01C5710F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 343d06d914165ffd9d590a64755216ca Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Yes, perhaps. But for the initial registry it makes eminent sense to be = conservative in what we enter. There is a registration process that = allows these updates and it should be used for this. The Suppress-Script field is informative. There exist cases in which one = will wish to ignore it and use the script anyway (the document says so!) = and users are cautioned to avoid the script subtag (as with any subtag) = when it adds no identifying information. Presumably 'Latn' adds no = identifying information to most 'frm' documents. This is the reason (he says, treading his sour grapes once again) why I = supported documenting the other side of the equation (when script is = recommended). A comprehensive and error free list will be much easier to = maintain and implement for that, I think. (But time to move on from that argument; I lost that one.) Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Martin Duerst > Sent: 2005?6?13? 17:22 > To: Frank Ellermann; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates > forthe63rd IETF Meeting in Paris, France >=20 > [chair hat off] > Supress-scripts means "no need to mention this script for this > language", yes? If so, then I think we have way not enough of > them. As an example, for "rm Raeto-Romance", there is very > clearly nothing else than Latin that I'm aware of. >=20 > There are others that look very easy to fill in: >=20 > cu Church Slavic -> Cyrillic > bo Tibetan -> Tibetan (what else?) > frm French, Middl -> Latn > ang English, Old -> Latn > gmh German, Middl -> Latn > grc Greek, Ancien -> Greek > gez Geez -> Ethiopic >=20 > There are many more, similar ones. Regards, Martin. >=20 >=20 > At 05:10 05/06/14, Frank Ellermann wrote: > >Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > >> Don't forget the matching draft, and the initial registry. > > > >If you want the latter to be "last called" and approved before > >Paris, with all missing Suppress-Scripts discussed and fixed, > >then you have a serious problem. All I can do is to post the > >current Suppress-Scripts based on Doug's lstreg.txt 2005-06-05 > > > > Bye, Frank > > > > aa Afar | Cyrl ab Abkhazian | ae Avestan > >Latn af Afrikaans | ak Akan | Ethi am Amharic > > an Aragonese | Arab ar Arabic | Beng as Assamese > > av Avaric | Latn ay Aymara | az = Azerbaijani > > ba Bashkir | Cyrl be Belarusian | Cyrl bg Bulgarian > > bh Bihari | bi Bislama | bm Bambara > >Beng bn Bengali | bo Tibetan | br Breton > >Latn bs Bosnian | Latn ca Catalan; Vale | ce Chechen > >Latn ch Chamorro | co Corsican | cr Cree > >Latn cs Czech | cu Church Slavic | cv Chuvash > >Latn cy Welsh | Latn da Danish | Latn de German > >Thaa dv Divehi | Tibt dz Dzongkha | ee Ewe > >Grek el Greek, Modern | Latn en English | Latn eo Esperanto > >Latn es Spanish; Cast | Latn et Estonian | Latn eu Basque > >Arab fa Persian | ff Fulah | Latn fi Finnish > >Latn fj Fijian | Latn fo Faroese | Latn fr French > > fy Frisian | Latn ga Irish | gd Gaelic; = Scott > >Latn gl Gallegan | Latn gn Guarani | Gujr gu Gujarati > >Latn gv Manx | ha Hausa | Hebr he Hebrew > >Deva hi Hindi | ho Hiri Motu | Latn hr Croatian > >Latn ht Haitian; Hait | Latn hu Hungarian | Armn hy Armenian > > hz Herero | ia Interlingua ( | Latn id = Indonesian > > ie Interlingue | ig Igbo | ii Sichuan = Yi > > ik Inupiaq | Latn in Indonesian | io Ido > >Latn is Icelandic | Latn it Italian | iu Inuktitut > >Hebr iw Hebrew | ja Japanese | ji Yiddish > > jv Javanese | jw Javanese | Geor ka Georgian > > kg Kongo | ki Kikuyu; Gikuy | kj Kuanyama; = Kwa > >Cyrl kk Kazakh | Latn kl Kalaallisut; | Khmr km Khmer > >Knda kn Kannada | ko Korean | kr Kanuri > > ks Kashmiri | ku Kurdish | kv Komi > > kw Cornish | ky Kirghiz | Latn la Latin > >Latn lb Luxembourgish | lg Ganda | li = Limburgan; Li > >Latn ln Lingala | Laoo lo Lao | Latn lt = Lithuanian > > lu Luba-Katanga | Latn lv Latvian | Latn mg Malagasy > >Latn mh Marshallese | mi Maori | Cyrl mk = Macedonian > >Mlym ml Malayalam | mn Mongolian | Latn mo Moldavian > >Deva mr Marathi | Latn ms Malay | Latn mt Maltese > >Mymr my Burmese | Latn na Nauru | Latn nb Norwegian = Bok > >Latn nd Ndebele, Nort | Deva ne Nepali | ng Ndonga > >Latn nl Dutch; Flemis | Latn nn Norwegian Nyn | Latn no Norwegian > >Latn nr Ndebele, Sout | nv Navajo; Navah | Latn ny Chichewa; = Che > > oc Occitan (post | oj Ojibwa | Latn om Oromo > >Orya or Oriya | os Ossetian; Oss | Guru pa Panjabi; = Punj > > pi Pali | Latn pl Polish | Arab ps Pushto > >Latn pt Portuguese | Latn qu Quechua | rm = Raeto-Romance > >Latn rn Rundi | Latn ro Romanian | Cyrl ru Russian > >Latn rw Kinyarwanda | sa Sanskrit | sc Sardinian > > sd Sindhi | se Northern Sami | Latn sg Sango > > sh Serbo-Croatia | Sinh si Sinhala; Sinh | Latn sk Slovak > >Latn sl Slovenian | Latn sm Samoan | sn Shona > >Latn so Somali | Latn sq Albanian | sr Serbian > >Latn ss Swati | Latn st Sotho, Southe | su Sundanese > >Latn sv Swedish | Latn sw Swahili | Taml ta Tamil > >Telu te Telugu | tg Tajik | Thai th Thai > >Ethi ti Tigrinya | tk Turkmen | Latn tl Tagalog > >Latn tn Tswana | Latn to Tonga (Tonga | Latn tr Turkish > >Latn ts Tsonga | tt Tatar | tw Twi > > ty Tahitian | ug Uighur; Uyghu | Cyrl uk Ukrainian > >Arab ur Urdu | uz Uzbek | Latn ve Venda > >Latn vi Vietnamese | vo Volapük | wa Walloon > >Latn wo Wolof | Latn xh Xhosa | Hebr yi Yiddish > > yo Yoruba | za Zhuang; Chuan | zh Chinese > >Latn zu Zulu | ace Achinese | ach Acoli > > ada Adangme | ady Adyghe; Adyge | afa = Afro-Asiatic > > afh Afrihili | akk Akkadian | ale Aleut > > alg Algonquian la | alt Southern Alta | ang English, = Old > > apa Apache langua | arc Aramaic | arn = Araucanian > > arp Arapaho | art Artificial (O | arw Arawak > > ast Asturian; Bab | ath Athapascan la | aus = Australian la > > awa Awadhi | bad Banda | bai Bamileke = lang > > bal Baluchi | ban Balinese | bas Basa > > bat Baltic (Other | bej Beja | bem Bemba > > ber Berber (Other | bho Bhojpuri | bik Bikol > > bin Bini | bla Siksika | bnt Bantu = (Other) > > bra Braj | btk Batak (Indone | bua Buriat > > bug Buginese | byn Blin; Bilin | cad Caddo > > cai Central Ameri | car Carib | cau Caucasian = (Ot > > ceb Cebuano | cel Celtic (Other | chb Chibcha > > chg Chagatai | chk Chuukese | chm Mari > > chn Chinook jargo | cho Choctaw | chp Chipewyan > > chr Cherokee | chy Cheyenne | cmc Chamic = langua > > cop Coptic | Latn cpe Creoles and p | cpf Creoles = and p > > cpp Creoles and p | crh Crimean Tatar | crp Creoles = and p > > csb Kashubian | cus Cushitic (Oth | dak Dakota > > dar Dargwa | day Dayak | del Delaware > > den Slave (Athapa | dgr Dogrib | din Dinka > > doi Dogri | dra Dravidian (Ot | dsb Lower = Sorbian > > dua Duala | dum Dutch, Middle | dyu Dyula > > efi Efik | egy Egyptian (Anc | eka Ekajuk > > elx Elamite | enm English, Midd | ewo Ewondo > > fan Fang | fat Fanti | fil Filipino; = Pil > > fiu Finno-Ugrian | fon Fon | frm French, = Middl > > fro French, Old ( | fur Friulian | gaa Ga > > gay Gayo | gba Gbaya | gem Germanic = (Oth > > gez Geez | gil Gilbertese | gmh German, = Middl > > goh German, Old H | gon Gondi | gor Gorontalo > > got Gothic | grb Grebo | grc Greek, = Ancien > > gwi Gwich´in | hai Haida | haw Hawaiian > > hil Hiligaynon | him Himachali | hit Hittite > > hmn Hmong | hsb Upper Sorbian | hup Hupa > > iba Iban | ijo Ijo | ilo Iloko > > inc Indic (Other) | ine Indo-European | inh Ingush > > ira Iranian (Othe | iro Iroquoian lan | jbo Lojban > > jpr Judeo-Persian | jrb Judeo-Arabic | kaa = Kara-Kalpak > > kab Kabyle | kac Kachin | kam Kamba > > kar Karen | kaw Kawi | kbd Kabardian > > kha Khasi | khi Khoisan (Othe | kho Khotanese > > kmb Kimbundu | Deva kok Konkani | kos Kosraean > > kpe Kpelle | krc Karachay-Balk | kro Kru > > kru Kurukh | kum Kumyk | kut Kutenai > > lad Ladino | lah Lahnda | lam Lamba > > lez Lezghian | lol Mongo | loz Lozi > > lua Luba-Lulua | lui Luiseno | lun Lunda > > luo Luo (Kenya an | lus Lushai | mad Madurese > > mag Magahi | Deva mai Maithili | mak Makasar > > man Mandingo | map Austronesian | mas Masai > > mdf Moksha | mdr Mandar | Latn men Mende > > mga Irish, Middle | mic Mi'kmaq; Micm | min = Minangkabau > > mis Miscellaneous | mkh Mon-Khmer (Ot | mnc Manchu > > mni Manipuri | mno Manobo langua | moh Mohawk > > mos Mossi | mul Multiple lang | mun Munda = languag > > mus Creek | mwl Mirandese | mwr Marwari > > myn Mayan languag | myv Erzya | nah Nahuatl > > nai North America | nap Neapolitan | nds Low = German; L > > new Nepal Bhasa; | nia Nias | nic = Niger-Kordofa > >Latn niu Niuean | nog Nogai | non Norse, = Old > >Latn nso Northern Soth | nub Nubian langua | nwc Classical = New > > nym Nyamwezi | nyn Nyankole | nyo Nyoro > > nzi Nzima | osa Osage | ota Turkish, = Otto > > oto Otomian langu | paa Papuan (Other | pag = Pangasinan > > pal Pahlavi | pam Pampanga | pap = Papiamento > > pau Palauan | peo Persian, Old | phi = Philippine (O > > phn Phoenician | pon Pohnpeian | pra Prakrit = langu > > pro Provença | qaa PRIVATE USE | raj = Rajasthani > > rap Rapanui | rar Rarotongan | roa Romance = (Othe > > rom Romany | sad Sandawe | sah Yakut > > sai South America | sal Salishan lang | sam Samaritan = Ara > > sas Sasak | sat Santali | scn Sicilian > > sco Scots | sel Selkup | sem Semitic = (Othe > > sga Irish, Old (t | sgn Sign Language | shn Shan > > sid Sidamo | sio Siouan langua | sit = Sino-Tibetan > > sla Slavic (Other | sma Southern Sami | smi Sami = language > > smj Lule Sami | smn Inari Sami | sms Skolt = Sami > > snk Soninke | sog Sogdian | Latn son Songhai > > srn Sranan Tongo | srr Serer | ssa = Nilo-Saharan > > suk Sukuma | sus Susu | sux Sumerian > > syr Syriac | tai Tai (Other) | Latn tem Timne > > ter Tereno | tet Tetum | tig Tigre > > tiv Tiv | Latn tkl Tokelau | tlh Klingon; = tlhI > > tli Tlingit | Latn tmh Tamashek | tog Tonga = (Nyasa) > >Latn tpi Tok Pisin | tsi Tsimshian | tum Tumbuka > > tup Tupi language | tut Altaic (Other | Latn tvl Tuvalu > > tyv Tuvinian | udm Udmurt | uga Ugaritic > > umb Umbundu | und Undetermined | vai Vai > > vot Votic | wak Wakashan lang | wal Walamo > > war Waray | was Washo | wen Sorbian = langu > > xal Kalmyk; Oirat | yao Yao | yap Yapese > > ypk Yupik languag | zap Zapotec | zen Zenaga > > znd Zande | zun Zuni | > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 15:12:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiGpq-0005Q8-P1; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:12:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiGpp-0005NQ-Ph for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:12:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20514 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiHCL-0008SU-2D for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:35:45 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:12:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:12:12 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA21D8@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVwZelEC3e6Xl08SRCre0odrscWygAqhAiA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 19:12:13.0522 (UTC) FILETIME=[F8ABCB20:01C57114] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dbb8771284c7a36189745aa720dc20ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Some corrections entered as shown below. New copy online. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?13? 15:13 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 >=20 > Hi, if Randy really wants to "last call" the matching draft > together with the registry draft it's time to find some nits: >=20 > - the references are still messy (2234 instead of 2234bis, > normative IANA MoU, unreferenced [2], [3], [4], [6], [7], > [8], [9], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], {18], > [20] ). [Addison Phillips]=20 Reference cleaning is not done yet. >=20 > - the credits are dubious, IIRC only Doug, Ira, Ned, John, > and Randy contributed to the matching draft (and Ira isn't > listed). [Addison Phillips]=20 Ahem... and both co-editors. And my fellow co-inventor of the extended = language range (Jeremy Carroll)... and did I forget anybody? In any case, this was originally copied, unmodified, from the registry = draft. It is now replaced. >=20 > - chapter 5 is apparently a copy from the registry draft. > A simple pointer "security considerations are discussed in > [draft-ietf-ltru-registry]" is better. [Addison Phillips]=20 It is NOT a simple copy: language ranges actually represent the thing = that you send in your requests. They, and not language tags, are the = item addressed by the security section. Better in matching (where ranges = are defined) than in the registry draft!! >=20 > - chapter 6 is apparently a copy from the registry draft, it > could be deleted. Probably this kills some more references. [Addison Phillips]=20 I removed the second paragraph. The first was slightly tweaked. >=20 > - chapter 4 says "this is the first version of this document". > But its draft -02, not -00. [Addison Phillips]=20 Think of publication as an RFC. This is the first version of this = document to be an RFC. That will be the ONLY text in this section after = the Last Call. The remaining chicken scratch documents the deltas from = draft-to-draft. >=20 > - chapter 3 doesn't appear in the order recommended in draft > rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-08 (Acknowledgements, Security, IANA). > I've seen Bruce check this, and I got this "wrong" elsewhere. [Addison Phillips]=20 Where should I put it?!? It isn't clear from the cited draft. I dislike = the endless arcana. >=20 > - The "Abstract" contains references, but that's not allowed. > The XML input is apparently invalid, for a nice validator > see also . > No, I'm not joking, I discussed this on the xml2rfc list. [Addison Phillips]=20 GROAN. I really REALLY dislike endless arcana like this. The abstract = for the registry draft cites RFC 3066 (duh). >=20 > - For the author's addresses I'd add some corresponding URLs, > e.g. - no idea for Mark, IBM > URLs are in permanent flux... [Addison Phillips]=20 We both hate spam. I exposed my email address and that's sufficient. >=20 > ...one hour later, and queries like > work again. Grmbl. >=20 > - The intro defines unused keywords REQUIRED, SHALL, SHALL NOT, > and OPTIONAL. Bruce checks this. [Addison Phillips]=20 Argh. Let him. Let's keep them defined until forced to remove them (the = document is early in gestation). >=20 > - chapter 2.1.1 mentions en-DE-boont, that's an odd example > for matching. [Addison Phillips]=20 Changed. Now only the tag "de-Deva" is entirely unlikely. >=20 > - chapter 2.1.2 says *[ "-" extlang ] > Bill's checker proposes *( "-" extlang ) > We want *3( "-" extlang ) [Addison Phillips]=20 Changed per other thread. >=20 > It also says ( "x" / "X" ) instead of "x". Same problem in > the registry draft, AFAIK ("x"/"X") should be "x", reported > several times here. [Addison Phillips]=20 No, it shouldn't, I don't believe. Although the text defines the case = equivalence, some scurrilous dogs complained about not including both = cases in the ABNF last time around. I'd hate to tangle with it again. >=20 > Obscure ABNF issues =3D> TILT, I don't look any further, bye. [Addison Phillips]=20 Hopefully better now. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 17:44:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiJCv-0005xR-Tq; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:44:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiJCu-0005wm-Jx for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:44:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08721 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiJZR-0004LY-I0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:07:47 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-2-79.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.2.79] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DiJCi-00079L-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:44:16 -0400 Message-ID: <006001c5712a$b0975500$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:47:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I'm forwarding (with permission) this message from Karen Broome on the ietf-languages mailing list, since, as a technical contributor, I think it helps clarify what was intended by the registration that started the discussion that resulted in issue #1033 being posted, but also gives examples of very real applications of language tags where these distinctions are important. Randy > From: > To: "Debbie Garside" > Cc: "'IETF Languages Discussion'" ; "'Michael Everson'" > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:48 AM > Subject: RE: Swiss german, spoken > > Sorry if I'm a bit busy today and overwhelmed by the response to my > language request. I now agree with Michael that Swiss German should not be > restricted to a spoken form alone. That distinction was made based on my > use of the language, but likely doesn't apply on a wider basis as this > language is sometimes, if rarely, used in written form. If I need to > resubmit my language request to reflect this change, I'd be happy to do > so. > > However, in Debbie's defense, here's why I need the distinctions between > spoken and written languages at Sony Pictures. I realize these are > implementation details, but they may help explain my business need. I am > classifying film product to a list of predefined language categories. I > want these categories to be mutually exclusive. If I'm dubbing a film > into Chinese, I want to see the values: > > Chinese (Cantonese) > Chinese (Mandarin) > > If I'm subtitling that film, I want my user to see: > > Chinese (Cantonese) > Chinese (Mandarin Simplified) > Chinese (Mandarin Traditional) > > I do not consider traditional Mandarin to be a "spoken language," > therefore it cannot be used with dubbed product. If I put three flavors > of Mandarin on my language list, then a user could potentially classify a > dubbed film as traditional or simplified Mandarin, which is bad data. > These classifications must ultimately be passed in standards-compliant XML > (various standards, depending on use). > > So for data storage here, I will recommend use of a single language table > associated with proper ISO codes, filtered in a UI via a spoken/written > Boolean I associate with each language. I have analyzed our use of > language here and RFC 3066 met my needs except in the case of Swiss German > and Latin American Spanish, so I applied for those codes. We do not > subtitle into Swiss German, so I had this noted as a spoken variant in my > spreadsheet, but my application for the code shouldn't have made this > distinction. > > Hope this helps explain my request, > > Karen Broome > > > > > > > "Debbie Garside" > Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no > 06/11/2005 04:19 PM > > > To: "'Michael Everson'" , "'IETF Languages Discussion'" > > cc: > Subject: RE: Swiss german, spoken > > > But for archival and retrieval processes we MAY wish to make a > distinction. > Remember, there are an awful lot of end users out there using 3066. > > Thought of day... Think literally... think laterally... and ye shall have > a > fuller picture :-) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages- > > bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Michael Everson > > Sent: 12 June 2005 00:08 > > To: 'IETF Languages Discussion' > > Subject: Re: Swiss german, spoken > > > > At 16:01 -0700 2005-06-11, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > >Hi - > > > > > >> From: "Debbie Garside" > > >> To: "'Michael Everson'" ; "'IETF Languages > > >>Discussion'" > > >> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:47 PM > > >> Subject: RE: Swiss german, spoken > > >> > > >>IMHO Requests for specifically "Written" tags and "Spoken" tags will > > >> increase in the future and it may be a wise thing to discuss this > > sooner > > >> rather than later. This is currently catered for within the proposed > > 639-6; > > >> if accepted 3066bis (or ter) will (I presume) follow suit. > > >... > > > > > >If you would like to ensure that the language tag registry has > mechanisms > > >to specifically support this distinction, please take your concern > > >to the ltru@ietf.org > > >mailing list, preferably with the specific text you'd like to add or > > change. > > >The WG is very close to being ready for WG last call on the registry > > draft, > > >so delay would not be good. > > > > Oh, I'd really like to say "bollocks" to this notion of "spoken" vs > > "written". A language is a language. EVERY language can be written. > > Representation of dialect forms of written language is not a question > > of written/unwritten. > > -- > > Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf-languages mailing list > > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 17:49:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiJHg-0006qg-NH; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:49:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiJHf-0006qW-VL for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:49:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09129 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiJeC-0004kL-4j for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:12:43 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:49:10 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:49:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:49:07 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken Thread-Index: AcVxKmCvarpX8teiQ+uzcC22RGRqWgAAEdgg From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 21:49:16.0995 (UTC) FILETIME=[E97FA930:01C5712A] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > I'm forwarding (with permission) this message from Karen Broome on the > ietf-languages mailing list, since, as a technical contributor, I think it helps > clarify what was intended by the registration that started the discussion that > resulted in issue #1033 being posted, but also gives examples of very real > applications of language tags where these distinctions are important. Again, I think this input re needs is valuable, but I don't think there is any change we need to make in the registry I-D or the draft registry. Thus, I think #1033 can be closed. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 18:14:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiJcn-0004TJ-5x; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:11:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiJcl-0004Rc-Bb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:11:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11587 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.68]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiJzJ-0006Ao-Pz for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:34:31 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-2-79.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.2.79] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DiJcj-0000bS-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:11:09 -0400 Message-ID: <00ac01c5712e$715bc0c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050613160318.YDWQ17037.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <005b01c5708b$74ea3bc0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:14:32 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:47 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 ... > > Are we rat-holing again on the details of the draft registry rather > > than staying focused on the ID? > > I see Randy assigning a ticket number to issues involving the initial > registry, and confirming that the draft registry needs to be ready soon > along with the registry draft. So I thought this was a legitimate, > focused, and timely thread. Before continuing it, though, I'd like > confirmation from a co-chair. ... If you check the issue tracker at https://rt.psg.com/ (password and user "ietf") you'll see that issue #900 is indeed in the ltru-initial queue for issues relevant to the initial registry. The content of the initial registry is indeed fair topic for discussion, and we can create new ticket numbers as needed. To the extent that we find ourselves "rat-holing" on the content of the initial registry, as a technical contributor I'd react by saying that that would suggest that the registry i-d isn't making its principles sufficiently clear, and that perhaps a corresponding issue might need to be opened with respect to the registry i-d to resolving the question that was causing discussion of the initial registry to stall. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 18:38:44 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiK3Q-0002l6-7V; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:38:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiK3O-0002ko-DN for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:38:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14445 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiKPv-00085o-Ns for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:02:02 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:30 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 Thread-Index: AcVxLkZowMHYERIGRruv/zJdzeN2mAAABpOw From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2005 22:38:30.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[CA074F20:01C57131] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I withdraw the critique. Peter Constable > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 3:15 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "Doug Ewell" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:47 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #900] remove region subtag 200 > ... > > > Are we rat-holing again on the details of the draft registry rather > > > than staying focused on the ID? > > > > I see Randy assigning a ticket number to issues involving the initial > > registry, and confirming that the draft registry needs to be ready soon > > along with the registry draft. So I thought this was a legitimate, > > focused, and timely thread. Before continuing it, though, I'd like > > confirmation from a co-chair. > ... >=20 > If you check the issue tracker at https://rt.psg.com/ (password and user "ietf") > you'll see that issue #900 is indeed in the ltru-initial queue for issues > relevant to the initial registry. >=20 > The content of the initial registry is indeed fair topic for discussion, > and we can create new ticket numbers as needed. To the extent that we > find ourselves "rat-holing" on the content of the initial registry, > as a technical contributor I'd react by saying that that would suggest > that the registry i-d isn't making its principles sufficiently clear, > and that perhaps a corresponding issue might need to be opened with respect > to the registry i-d to resolving the question that was causing discussion > of the initial registry to stall. >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 19:08:52 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiKWa-0000hI-IY; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiKWa-0000hD-1v for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17110 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiKt1-0001bZ-NL for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:32:12 -0400 Received: from smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com (smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com [195.93.24.40]) by rly-ip05.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id RELAYIN10-b42af636473; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:21 -0500 Received: from DEBHOME (ACCB92AE.ipt.aol.com [172.203.146.174]) by smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5EN8C4m005293; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:08:13 -0400 Message-Id: <200506142308.j5EN8C4m005293@smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com> From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:08:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcVxKmCvarpX8teiQ+uzcC22RGRqWgAAEdggAAKq51A= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-AOL-IP: 195.93.24.40 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Peter Constable wrote: > Again, I think this input re needs is valuable Agreed > but I don't think there > is any change we need to make in the registry I-D or the draft registry. How is this need currently addressed? Debbie > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 14 June 2005 22:49 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On Behalf Of > > Randy Presuhn > > > > I'm forwarding (with permission) this message from Karen Broome on the > > ietf-languages mailing list, since, as a technical contributor, I > think it helps > > clarify what was intended by the registration that started the > discussion that > > resulted in issue #1033 being posted, but also gives examples of very > real > > applications of language tags where these distinctions are important. > > > > > Peter Constable > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 20:02:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiLMX-0003XB-TM; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:02:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiLMW-0003X6-5G for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:02:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA19956 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiLj5-0004oz-HM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:25:52 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:02:21 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:02:20 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:02:28 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken Thread-Index: AcVxKmCvarpX8teiQ+uzcC22RGRqWgAAEdggAAKq51AAAca/oA== From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2005 00:02:20.0450 (UTC) FILETIME=[80023820:01C5713D] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk] > > but I don't think there > > is any change we need to make in the registry I-D or the draft registry. >=20 > How is this need currently addressed? It will be possible to construct tags for all of the attributions Karen described needing to make in 3066bis as defined in the current draft. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 23:18:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiOQP-0004mU-U6; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:18:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiOQO-0004mO-HU for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:18:44 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00348 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050615031809.VUJA13270.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:18:09 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c57158$d6d6f6c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050614174428.QRHH13973.mta7.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:18:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > This issue would be: consider an area that gets an UN M.49 code. This > code gets registered via the process. Sometime later the ISO 3166 code > gets registered and the UN M.49 code gets deprecated and mapped. Then > the place changes its name and gets assigned the alpha2 code 'BU' as a > result. Now what happens? Our escape hatch is effectively blocked. > > The alternative is to forbid registration of UN M.49 codes "on a whim" > via the registration process altogether. The escape hatch can never > get blocked in this way. Given that we're talking about the Channel > Islands as the *sole* representative of this, it doesn't break my > heart to do this. I think this is a very important issue, especially if (like Frank) one believes that countries will continue along a brisk pace of merging and splitting and name-changing. There should definitely be a clear path to the "emergency exit," as Frank has called it. Manual registration of UN M.49 codes as region subtags, if not outright forbidden, ought to be like registering 8-letter primary language subtags -- we'd better be doggoned good and sure the entity in question isn't going to get an ISO code any time soon. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 14 23:23:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiOUh-0005Dm-9Y; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:23:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiOUf-0005Dc-CI for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:23:09 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00588 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050615032238.IFYZ8952.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:22:38 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c57159$778d3ca0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050614214458.TNWF2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:22:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates...Re: Ltru Digest, Vol 4, Issue 47 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > This is the reason (he says, treading his sour grapes once again) why > I supported documenting the other side of the equation (when script is > recommended). A comprehensive and error free list will be much easier > to maintain and implement for that, I think. And why I supported staying out of this whole business altogether of "recommending" how languages and scripts should be used together. > (But time to move on from that argument; I lost that one.) Likewise. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 00:28:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiPVd-0002Xp-8E; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:28:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiPVX-0002Sx-0w for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:28:11 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05090 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050615042730.VDSC4191.mta13.adelphia.net@DEWELL>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:27:30 -0400 Message-ID: <00f801c57162$83513c40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:27:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Virgilio Castillo Subject: [Ltru] Re: Macrogeographical code 003 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I received the following, very helpful response from Virgilio Castillo of the UN Statistics Division: > Dear Mr. Ewell, > Our apologies for the delayed response to your email inquiry. I > forwarded your email to our collegue who recently retired and was > primarily responsible for this classification. > Based on his recollection of the revision from version 4 to the latest > internet update, code 003 "North America" is not used anymore for > statistical compilation, and therefore officially dropped from the > present version of the M49 classification. However, this does not > preclude you from using this code for your own purposes. Though > presently used for various other applications, the M49 classification > was developed primarily as a standard country and area coding system > for statistical use. Based on this, I recommend removing region subtag 003 from the initial LTRU registry. I'll open a ticket if necessary. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 03:31:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiSN5-0001sb-BR; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:31:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiSN3-0001qC-6S for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:31:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA18904 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rly-ip05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiSjZ-0004As-GJ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:54:57 -0400 Received: from smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com (smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com [195.93.24.40]) by rly-ip05.mx.aol.com (v98.19) with ESMTP id RELAYIN10-b42afd93d2fb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:31:09 -0500 Received: from DEBHOME (ACCB92AE.ipt.aol.com [172.203.146.174]) by smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5F7UwBr023900; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:30:58 -0400 Message-Id: <200506150730.j5F7UwBr023900@smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com> From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:31:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcVxKmCvarpX8teiQ+uzcC22RGRqWgAAEdggAAKq51AAAca/oAAPyHcw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.43 X-AOL-IP: 195.93.24.40 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Perhaps someone would care to show an example... and direct me to the text describing registration procedures for such distinctions. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 15 June 2005 01:02 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Fw: Swiss german, spoken > > > From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk] > > > > > but I don't think there > > > is any change we need to make in the registry I-D or the draft > registry. > > > > How is this need currently addressed? > > It will be possible to construct tags for all of the attributions Karen > described needing to make in 3066bis as defined in the current draft. > > > > Peter Constable > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 07:55:03 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiWU3-0000ke-AC; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:55:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiWU1-0000jX-OO for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:55:02 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA05738 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiWOm-0004A4-Mf for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:49:36 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:49:36 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:49:36 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:50:02 +0200 Organization: Lines: 27 Message-ID: <42B015EA.111@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2160@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] informative SHOULD (was: Fw: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff [....]) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > The Suppress-Script field is informative A SHOULD is a bit more than only "informative" in my book. It's "cut your throat before violating it". Of course my SHOULD-interpretation differs from Bruce's interpretation, but the worst he said so far was "a mere recommendation" - your "informative" would be a new record in his direction. > This is the reason (he says, treading his sour grapes > once again) why I supported documenting the other side > of the equation (when script is recommended). > A comprehensive and error free list will be much easier > to maintain and implement for that, I think. > (But time to move on from that argument; I lost that one.) Talking about sour grapes: Maybe we could get a resolution supporting Bruce's Content-Script draft, push it ahead of 3066bis through the IESG, and then add it to our "normative" references and the "tag wisely" blurb. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 08:14:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiWm0-0006id-64; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:13:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiWly-0006iM-Od for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:13:35 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08167 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiWgg-0006hl-Dj for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:08:06 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:08:06 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:08:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:12:24 +0200 Organization: Lines: 19 Message-ID: <42B01B28.5183@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB9360@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > proposed ABNF. Here is the fully corrected one: [...] > extlang = 2*3ALPHA *2("-" 3ALPHA) ("-" ( 3ALPHA / "*" )) [...] > privateuse = ( "x" / "X" ) 1*( "-" ( 1*8alphanum ) ) [...] > The flaw was that extlang has to have a primary language > subtag and it must be either an alpha2 or alpha3. ACK. Please get the okay of an ABNF expert like Bill, Ned, Bruce, Dave, Scott, or Harald for the ( "x" / "X" ) An "x" alone covers also "X" (and v.v.). Mentioning them both explicitly might be good for readability and allowed, but I'm not 99% sure about it. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 08:26:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiWya-0000qW-69; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:26:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiWyY-0000qR-P2 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:26:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09148 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.19]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiXLD-0004OR-ML for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:50:01 -0400 Received: (qmail 9831 messnum 277315 invoked from network[159.134.169.158/159-134-169-158.as1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 15 Jun 2005 12:26:13 -0000 Received: from 159-134-169-158.as1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO egt.ie) (159.134.169.158) by mail03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 9831) with SMTP; 15 Jun 2005 12:26:13 -0000 Message-ID: <42B01DBF.45AADEF@egt.ie> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:23:26 +0100 From: Marion Gunn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] informative SHOULD (was: Fw: Internet-Drafts SubmissionCutoff [....]) References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2160@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <42B015EA.111@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id IAA09148 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Of course it is. mg Scr=EDobh Frank Ellermann: >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > The Suppress-Script field is informative >=20 > A SHOULD is a bit more than only "informative" in my book. >=20 > It's "cut your throat before violating it"... --=20 Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an=20 Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 10:31:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiYvA-0003hd-C2; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:31:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiYv9-0003hY-2f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:31:11 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21133 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiYpX-0002uo-Vc for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:25:24 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:25:23 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:25:23 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:26:45 +0200 Organization: Lines: 124 Message-ID: <42B03AA5.65D5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA21D8@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Some corrections entered as shown below. New copy online. Okay, but Mark already convinced me that I got Randy wrong in my premature "last call" frenzy. >> - the credits are dubious [...] > Ahem... and both co-editors. AFAIK editors do not credit themselves, it's obvious that they contributed in some way. But I'm currently at odds with some of the professional standards of the I"E"SG and studying texts like RfC 2026 6.5.2 and RfC 3777 chapter 7. [security considerations] > It is NOT a simple copy: language ranges [...] > are the item addressed by the security section. Almost identical parts (matching -02 vs. registry -04): | Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension | MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD | NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to | prevent denial-of-service attacks. Where is the protection of the IANA tag registry against DoS attacks relevant for the purposes of "tag matching" ? | This is a special case of the general problem that anything | you send is visible to the receiving party. It is useful | to be aware that such concerns can exist in some cases. | | The evaluation of the exact magnitude of the threat, and | any possible countermeasures, is left to each application | protocol. And how does this almost literal copy from the registry draft affect any tag "matching" applications ? It's somehow like saying "regular expressions might be abused to guess what the user actually wants". Now, yes, that's their purpose, and the privacy issue is addressed in the registry draft. IMHO all you need is the first paragraph with a pointer to the registry draft: | Language ranges used in content negotiation, like any other | information exchanged on the Internet, might be a source of | concern because they might be used to infer the nationality | of the sender, and thus identify potential targets for | surveillance. This issue is also addressed in [RFC3066bis]. No fancy stuff about the lack of "security considerations" in 1766 and 3066, just the facts, ready. Especially don't claim that this is the _only_ known "security consideration", there are already more in the registry draft. > Better in matching (where ranges are defined) than in the > registry draft!! Yes, above I took the registry wording with an s/tags/ranges/. [recommended order of sections in draft 2223bis -08] > Where should I put it?!? It isn't clear from the cited draft, > I dislike the endless arcana. Me too, I hope that they will settle on one clear document, at the moment there are at least three (draft-hoffman-rfc-editor- author-guide, draft-rfc-editor-rfc-2223bis, 1id-guidelines). And if you think that you might be up to speed Bruce will find some relevant errata, some of them are acknowledged but still unpublished. The "recommended order" in 2223bis-08 (expired February 2005): 7a. Contributors 7b. Acknowledgments 7c. Security Considerations 7d. IANA Considerations 7e. Appendixes 7f. References 7c is required. 7d is AFAIK also required, but not in this draft. BTW, they just discuss this oddity on the IETF list. [no references in the abstract] >> I'm not joking, I discussed this on the xml2rfc list. > GROAN. I really REALLY dislike endless arcana like this. > The abstract for the registry draft cites RFC 3066 (duh). That's a matter of the DTD, it doesn't allow in the . It's also a rule in the expired 2223bis-08 4.5: | An Abstract should be complete in itself; it should not | contain citations unless they are completely defined within | the Abstract. >> e.g. [...] > We both hate spam. I exposed my email address and that's > sufficient. We all do, but some of us love googlebot. Do you want me to delete my link to your page, only because an address harvester might find and follow it ? I meant the optional .. part, not your munged .. address, that's fine. [unused 2119 keywords] >> Bruce checks this. > Argh. Let him. Okay. And if Scott has a problem with the lower case variant as soon as the upper case is defined let them shoot it out ;-) [maybe replace ( "x" / "X" ) by "x"] > No, it shouldn't, I don't believe. Maybe. But never ever try to say "x" if you don't want also "X", they'd bury you under tons of RfCs and "hum" to it. And draft taobis-02 is *not* expired, no excuses, no prisoners :-) Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 11:03:05 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiZQ1-0003N3-Bu; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:03:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiZPz-0003Mq-Ew for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:03:03 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24842 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiZKP-0008Od-BA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:57:17 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:57:17 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:57:17 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:55:35 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42B04167.3E8C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BBB92EF@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > But forbidding all such registrations might be a better move > (see response to Frank for why). UN M.49 codes are the escape > hatch for ISO 3166 reassignments, not an alternate scheme. Based on KISS and from an editorial POV it's a good plan, so I could live with it. And if they want 831..833 despite of this obscure "proces failure" between ISO 3166 and their Duke, are they free to register variants for some affected languages ? Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 11:20:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiZgQ-0006kt-Gw; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:20:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiZgO-0006kg-Qz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:20:01 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25911 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiZaH-0002ro-CQ for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:13:41 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:13:41 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:13:41 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:14:39 +0200 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: <42B045DF.1786@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00f801c57162$83513c40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Macrogeographical code 003 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Based on this, I recommend removing region subtag 003 from > the initial LTRU registry. Seconded, and thanks for checking. Trouble ticket only needed to get an ACK or NAK from Mark. OT joke for Addison: NAK is defined in FYI 18. TTFN, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 12:16:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiaYm-0001Js-P5; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:16:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DiaYl-0001Jm-Ld for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:16:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29784 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiavS-0001hx-US for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:39:40 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:15:55 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:15:54 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA25FD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 Thread-Index: AcVxtybMAYd6KzcBTtGCo2DAfLAiBwADFFBw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2005 16:15:55.0537 (UTC) FILETIME=[821D2010:01C571C5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97c820c82c68af374c4e382a80dc5017 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Jovial in-line response below. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?15? 7:27 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > Some corrections entered as shown below. New copy online. >=20 > Okay, but Mark already convinced me that I got Randy wrong in > my premature "last call" frenzy. [Addison Phillips]=20 Yes, but good edits are useful to capture. >=20 > >> - the credits are dubious > [...] > > Ahem... and both co-editors. >=20 > AFAIK editors do not credit themselves, it's obvious that they > contributed in some way. But I'm currently at odds with some > of the professional standards of the I"E"SG and studying texts > like RfC 2026 6.5.2 and RfC 3777 chapter 7. [Addison Phillips]=20 No, they don't usually do so. But in making a list, one should be = thorough. >=20 > [security considerations] > > It is NOT a simple copy: language ranges > [...] > > are the item addressed by the security section. >=20 > Almost identical parts (matching -02 vs. registry -04):[Addison = Phillips]=20 [Addison Phillips]=20 Yes, nearly identical, but that isn't a reason not to have the text. >=20 > Where is the protection of the IANA tag registry against DoS > attacks relevant for the purposes of "tag matching" ? [Addison Phillips]=20 It isn't applicable to matching. The registry is never even mentioned in = the matching draft, IIRC. >=20 > | This is a special case of the general problem that anything > | you send is visible to the receiving party. It is useful > | to be aware that such concerns can exist in some cases. > | > | The evaluation of the exact magnitude of the threat, and > | any possible countermeasures, is left to each application > | protocol. >=20 > And how does this almost literal copy from the registry draft > affect any tag "matching" applications ? It's somehow like > saying "regular expressions might be abused to guess what the > user actually wants". Now, yes, that's their purpose, and the > privacy issue is addressed in the registry draft. [Addison Phillips]=20 The privacy issue really pertains to tracking the requests people make = and those are expressed as ranges. In other words, language tags by = themselves do not have privacy issues. If I tag some XML content with = xml:lang, that has no privacy issue. Neither is labeling this email with = a Content-Language: my "identity" (in the form of my email address) is a = much better indicator of who I am. It is a privacy issue when you = request things with a token that may be somewhat unique and thus can be = tracked. The token is a range, not a tag, and thus matching applications = may very well also be tracking applications. >=20 > IMHO all you need is the first paragraph with a pointer to the > registry draft: >=20 > | Language ranges used in content negotiation, like any other > | information exchanged on the Internet, might be a source of > | concern because they might be used to infer the nationality > | of the sender, and thus identify potential targets for > | surveillance. This issue is also addressed in [RFC3066bis]. >=20 > No fancy stuff about the lack of "security considerations" in > 1766 and 3066, just the facts, ready. Especially don't claim > that this is the _only_ known "security consideration", there > are already more in the registry draft. [Addison Phillips]=20 That is good text. >=20 > > Better in matching (where ranges are defined) than in the > > registry draft!! >=20 > Yes, above I took the registry wording with an s/tags/ranges/. [Addison Phillips]=20 Yep, I'm still putting in the formulation "tags and ranges" (since = matching also concerns tags---it is matching tags to ranges). >=20 > [recommended order of sections in draft 2223bis -08] > > Where should I put it?!? It isn't clear from the cited draft, > > I dislike the endless arcana. >=20 > Me too, I hope that they will settle on one clear document, at > the moment there are at least three (draft-hoffman-rfc-editor- > author-guide, draft-rfc-editor-rfc-2223bis, 1id-guidelines). >=20 > And if you think that you might be up to speed Bruce will find > some relevant errata, some of them are acknowledged but still > unpublished. >=20 > The "recommended order" in 2223bis-08 (expired February 2005): >=20 > 7a. Contributors 7b. Acknowledgments > 7c. Security Considerations 7d. IANA Considerations > 7e. Appendixes 7f. References [Addison Phillips]=20 And there was much rejoicing. Not only will I have to reorder this = draft, but also the registry draft. >=20 > 7c is required. 7d is AFAIK also required, but not in this > draft. BTW, they just discuss this oddity on the IETF list. [Addison Phillips]=20 I saw the thread on null IANA sections. >=20 > [no references in the abstract] > >> I'm not joking, I discussed this on the xml2rfc list. >=20 > > GROAN. I really REALLY dislike endless arcana like this. > > The abstract for the registry draft cites RFC 3066 (duh). >=20 > That's a matter of the DTD, it doesn't allow in the > . It's also a rule in the expired 2223bis-08 4.5: [Addison Phillips]=20 Both documents cite RFC 3066 (and registry cites RFC 1766), but not = using xref. By the way, the DTD *does* allow xref in the abstract. I'm using XMetal = Author, so there is no way for me to create invalid XML. >=20 > | An Abstract should be complete in itself; it should not > | contain citations unless they are completely defined within > | the Abstract. >=20 > >> e.g. > [...] > > We both hate spam. I exposed my email address and that's > > sufficient. >=20 > We all do, but some of us love googlebot. Do you want me to > delete my link to your page, only because an address harvester > might find and follow it ? I meant the optional .. > part, not your munged .. address, that's fine. [Addison Phillips]=20 No, the website isn't really a spam generator. But we have been = conservative in what we placed in our personal profiles. The = Inter-Locale address is useful in this context because it hosts various = editing copies. >=20 > [unused 2119 keywords] > >> Bruce checks this. > > Argh. Let him. >=20 > Okay. And if Scott has a problem with the lower case variant > as soon as the upper case is defined let them shoot it out ;-) [Addison Phillips]=20 I did go through and do the fixes for that. I left the full list since = we're not near last call yet. We may have need of various OPTIONAL = keywords :-). >=20 > [maybe replace ( "x" / "X" ) by "x"] > > No, it shouldn't, I don't believe. >=20 > Maybe. But never ever try to say "x" if you don't want also > "X", they'd bury you under tons of RfCs and "hum" to it. And > draft taobis-02 is *not* expired, no excuses, no prisoners :-) >=20 I was keelhauled and burnt at the stake in a previous draft over this = silly issue, so I'm slightly loathe to remove the case distinctions. = Besides, look at the registry draft. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 12:18:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Diab2-0001dN-Vb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:18:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Diab1-0001dI-K8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:18:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00122 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Diaxh-0001vP-Kp for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:42:00 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:18:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:18:16 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2603@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and Jersey Thread-Index: AcVxu38aIHKPyiPpST6d3myJPP1LewACi/UA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2005 16:18:17.0277 (UTC) FILETIME=[D698EED0:01C571C5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Yes, at least in theory they could. A pointer to ISO 3166 MA is probably = the response such a request would get. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?15? 7:56 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1026] what to do about Guernsey and = Jersey >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > But forbidding all such registrations might be a better move > > (see response to Frank for why). UN M.49 codes are the escape > > hatch for ISO 3166 reassignments, not an alternate scheme. >=20 > Based on KISS and from an editorial POV it's a good plan, so I > could live with it. And if they want 831..833 despite of this > obscure "proces failure" between ISO 3166 and their Duke, are > they free to register variants for some affected languages ? >=20 > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 14:57:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Did4y-00056x-4e; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:57:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Did4v-00055g-MB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:57:33 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA15566 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dicym-000477-Rs for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:51:13 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:51:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:51:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:52:15 +0200 Organization: Lines: 69 Message-ID: <42B078DE.785B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA25FD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: [editors as contributors] > No, they don't usually do so. But in making a list, one > should be thorough. This must be one of these cultural things, like voting for yourself. Some say that not voting for yourself shows that even you are afraid that you might be incompetent. Others say that you're obviously biassed, and therefore you should abstain. Unless it's a tie. Or whatever. [DoS attack] > It isn't applicable to matching. The registry is never even > mentioned in the matching draft, IIRC. | Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension | MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD | NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to | prevent denial-of-service attacks. So far I thought that this statement is about the registry, if it's not, what else does it mean in the context of "matching" ? [privacy] > The privacy issue really pertains to tracking the requests > people make and those are expressed as ranges. ACK. > I'm still putting in the formulation "tags and ranges" Okay. > there was much rejoicing. Not only will I have to reorder > this draft, but also the registry draft. If you have good reasons for another order, ready for a reply, then this order is still only a recommendation in an expired draft - they also don't like numbered references. Somewhere you can draw the line and say "enough is enough". I'm not sure where, the LEO dictionary offers "running the gauntlet" for "Spiessrutenlaufen". >> That's a matter of the DTD, it doesn't allow in the >> . It's also a rule in the expired 2223bis-08 4.5 > Both documents cite RFC 3066 (and registry cites RFC 1766), > but not using xref. That is okay. But you still had a "[11]" and a "[19]" in the matching-02 abstract. > By the way, the DTD *does* allow xref in the abstract. I'm > using XMetal Author, so there is no way for me to create > invalid XML. Oops, yes, sorry, I stand corrected. It was only an effect I got for enabling Maybe try the online id-nits Web service for such nits, its author told me that he does NOT check the recommended order of the sections (not a promise, only a statement :-) It doesn't work for old Netscape browsers, but for Lynx 2.8.5 or Firefox (tested by somebody else) it's fine. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 16:21:29 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DieO9-00084H-6T; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:21:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DieO7-0007ua-EW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:21:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25374 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Diekr-00014e-Ix for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:44:58 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DieNw-0006zP-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:21:17 -0400 Message-ID: <00c701c571e8$44242ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:24:42 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ltru] administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As an observer of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, it seems to me that the registry draft might benefit from an explicit statement about the applicability of RFC 3683 or some other means of maintaining order on that mailing list. Using RFC 3683 itself seems too heavyweight, but RFC 3934 is formulated in terms of working groups. Separate from the language tag reviewer, would it make sense to appoint the administrator of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, and to empower the administrator to fulfil the role of "WG chair" *solely* for the purpose of carrying out the procedures of RFC 3934 for that mailing list? Would it make more sense to lift the appropriate paragraphs from 3934, substituting phrases to fit the ietf-languages situation? Or should we just leave things as they are? Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 16:28:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DieVL-00026c-8b; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:28:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DieVK-00026N-7t for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:28:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA27334 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Received: from mail-par.bigfish.com ([217.117.146.230] helo=mail11-par-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dies2-0001ve-CY for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:52:25 -0400 Received: from mail11-par.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail11-par-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443B13FB50C for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:28:37 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail11-par (MessageSwitch) id 1118867317214349_32380; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:28:37 +0000 (UCT) Received: from usmta02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.248.62]) by mail11-par.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C62F3FA10C for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:28:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by usmta02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.12) with SMTP id 2005061513354425:117410 ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:35:44 -0700 To: ltru@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:25:43 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/15/2005 13:25:44, Serialize complete at 06/15/2005 13:25:44, Itemize by SMTP Server on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/15/2005 01:35:44 PM, Serialize by Router on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/15/2005 01:35:45 PM, Serialize complete at 06/15/2005 01:35:45 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: no linguistic content tag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Why on earth would you want to categorize instrumental music against a list of languages? I must be missing something. Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 "John.Cowan" Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no 06/15/2005 01:08 PM To: Addison Phillips cc: ietf-languages@iana.org Subject: Re: no linguistic content tag (was RE: Mandarin Chinese, Simplified Script) Addison Phillips scripsit: > I'm not sure I like the idea. The empty tag, while not quite the > same level of declaration, implies this well-enough. We already have > troublesome codes like MUL and UND. A "NOT" code would represent Yet > Another Special Code. I like the empty tag much more for a situation > like this. The empty string is not actually a valid tag in RFC 3066. It is a legal value for xml:lang, but with different semantics: it means that no declaration is being made about the language of an element. So we have three related things here: xml:lang="": may or may not be linguistic content xml:lang="und": definitely linguistic content, language unknown xml:lang="xnl" (proposed): non-linguistic content > "Information items" that contain natural language generally > should be separate from non-language bearing items. See my previous posting. I think the case of instrumental-music recordings is particularly compelling. -- Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out. --Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God" John Cowan _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 16:48:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dieol-0002Pp-9p; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:48:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dieoi-0002KF-6T for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:48:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05567 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DifBR-0005Ut-Gz for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:27 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5FKmdBG028270; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:48:39 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:48:39 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: no linguistic content tag Message-ID: <20050615204839.GF3752@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > Why on earth would you want to categorize instrumental music against a=20 > list of languages? I must be missing something. I=7FThe idea is that I (notionally) want to use RFC 3066 tags to categorize my record albums, sung and spoken, according to what language they are in. Most of my albums are in en, but I do have a few in de and one in he, as well as a few more in mul. But if xnl meant "no language", I could take all the instrumental-only albums and tag them xnl. If you want to continue, we should take this to ietf-languages. --=20 Newbies always ask: John Cowan "Elements or attributes? http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Which will serve me best?" http://www.reutershealth.com Those who know roar like lions; jcowan@reutershealth.com Wise hackers smile like tigers. --a tanka, or extended = haiku _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 17:56:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Difs0-0000Ir-JS; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:56:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Difrz-0000Im-GL for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:56:23 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09408 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DifmG-0000D9-5H for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:50:28 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.169 ([212.82.251.169]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:50:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.169 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:50:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:54:46 +0200 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: <42B0A3A6.7694@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00c701c571e8$44242ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.169 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > should we just leave things as they are? We _could_ do what the tag reviewer and the listmom want, anybody else is free to use killfiles. I think that all list owners (or their delegates) can adopt RfC 3934, e.g. the SPF list owner did this. Works like a charm, I have collected one "private mail warning" so far. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 18:42:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Digap-0002bB-5T; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:42:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Digao-0002b6-AC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:42:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13305 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DigxZ-0003Mt-HX for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:06:14 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:42:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:42:22 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA28FC@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) Thread-Index: AcVx+3ycoMM0tS2pSF2cdptR7VeYTA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2005 22:42:22.0936 (UTC) FILETIME=[7EE16D80:01C571FB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0551330564==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0551330564== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxsLA0KDQpCYXNlZCBvbiBteSBzdWdnZXN0aW9uIHRoYXQgd2UgZm9yYmlkIFVOIE0uNDkgY29k ZXMgZXhjZXB0IGZvciB0aGUgYnktcnVsZSByZWdpc3RyYXRpb25zLCBJIG1hZGUgdGhlIGZvbGxv d2luZyBjaGFuZ2VzIGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdDoNCg0KKGluIDIuMi40ICJSZWdpb24iKQ0KDQo8dD5B bGwgb3RoZXIgVU4gbnVtZXJpYyBjb2RlcyBmb3IgY291bnRyaWVzIG9yIGFyZWFzIHdoaWNoIGRv IG5vdCBoYXZlIGFuIGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgSVNPIDMxNjYgTVVTVCBOT1QgYmUgZW50ZXJlZCBpbnRv IHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBhbmQgTVVTVCBOT1QgYmUgdXNlZCB0byBmb3JtIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3Mu IEZvciBtb3JlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGFib3V0IHRoZXNlIGNvZGVzLCBzZWUgPHhyZWYgdGFyZ2V0 PSJpYW5hc3RhYmlsaXR5Ij48L3hyZWY+LjwvdD4NCg0KKGluIDMuMyAiU3RhYmlsaXR5IikNCg0K PHQ+Rm9yIElTTyAzMTY2IGNvZGVzLCBpZiB0aGUgbmV3bHkgYXNzaWduZWQgY29kZSdzIG1lYW5p bmcgaXMgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB3aXRoIGEgVU4gTS40OSBjb2RlIHRoYXQgaXMgbm90IHJlcHJlc2Vu dGVkIGJ5IGFuIGV4aXN0aW5nIHJlZ2lvbiBzdWJ0YWcsIHRoZW4gdGhlIExhbmd1YWdlIFN1YnRh ZyBSZXZpZXdlciwgYXMgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGluIDx4cmVmIHRhcmdldD0icmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uUHJv YyIvPiwgU0hBTEwgcHJlcGFyZSBhIHByb3Bvc2FsIGZvciBlbnRlcmluZyB0aGUgYXBwcm9wcmlh dGUgVU4gTS40OSBjb3VudHJ5IGNvZGUgYXMgYW4gZW50cnkgaW4gdGhlIElBTkEgcmVnaXN0cnku IDwvdD4NCg0KPHQ+Q29kZXMgYXNzaWduZWQgYnkgVU4gTS40OSB0byBjb3VudHJpZXMgb3IgYXJl YXMgKGFzIG9wcG9zZWQgdG8gZ2VvZ3JhcGhpY2FsIHJlZ2lvbnMgYW5kIHN1Yi1yZWdpb25zKSBm b3Igd2hpY2ggdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyBJU08gMzE2NiBjb2RlIE1VU1QgTk9U IGJlIHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQsIGV4Y2VwdCB1bmRlciB0aGUgcHJldmlvdXMgcHJvdmlzaW9uLiBJZiBp dCBpcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gaWRlbnRpZnkgYSByZWdpb24gZm9yIHdoaWNoIG9ubHkgYSBVTiBN LjQ5IGNvZGUgZXhpc3RzIGluIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MsIHRoZW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBh dXRob3JpdHkgZm9yIElTTyAzMTY2IFNIT1VMRCBiZSBwZXRpdGlvbmVkIHRvIGFzc2lnbiBhIGNv ZGUsIHdoaWNoIGNhbiB0aGVuIGJlIHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQgZm9yIHVzZSBpbiBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWdz LiBBdCB0aGUgdGltZSB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IHdhcyB3cml0dGVuLCB0aGVyZSB3ZXJlIG9ubHkg Zm91ciBzdWNoIGNvZGVzOiA4MzAgKENoYW5uZWwgSXNsYW5kcyksIDgzMSAoR3Vlcm5zZXkpLCA4 MzIgKEplcnNleSksIGFuZCA4MzMgKElzbGUgb2YgTWFuKS4gVGhpcyBydWxlIGV4aXN0cyBzbyB0 aGF0IFVOIE0uNDkgY29kZXMgcmVtYWluIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhcyB0aGUgdmFsdWUgb2YgbGFzdCBy ZXNvcnQgaW4gY2FzZXMgd2hlcmUgSVNPIDMxNjYgcmVhc3NpZ25zIGEgZGVwcmVjYXRlZCB2YWx1 ZSBpbiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuPC90Pg0KDQotLS0NCg0KU2VlIHRoZSBuZXdseSBwb3N0ZWQgZWRp dG9yJ3MgY29weS4NCg0KUmFuZHk6IHdoYXQncyBsZWZ0PyBJIHNob3cgIzk0NCBhbmQgIzEwMjYg YWRkcmVzc2VkIGJ5IHRoZSBlZGl0b3IncyBjb3B5LiBUaGlzIGxlYXZlcyAjMTAzMyAoV3JpdHRl biBTcG9rZW4gU2lnbmVkKT8NCg0KSWYgd2UgY2FuIGNsb3NlIHRoYXQgd2UgY291bGQgKHdpdGgg dGhlIGNvLWNoYWlyJ3MgYXBwcm92YWwpIHByZXBhcmUgYW4gTEMgdmVyc2lvbi4gSW4gYW55IGV2 ZW50LCBJIHdpbGwgYmUgc3VibWl0dGluZyBkcmFmdC0wNSB0b25pZ2h0Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoN CkFkZGlzb24gUC4gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0LCBRdWVzdCBTb2Z0 d2FyZQ0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5xdWVzdC5jb20NCg0KQ2hhaXIsIFczQyBJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXph dGlvbiBDb3JlIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnL0ludGVybmF0aW9uYWwN Cg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hp dGVjdHVyZS4gDQoNCg0K --===============0551330564== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0551330564==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 18:49:45 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dighd-0004NR-QB; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:49:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dighc-0004NM-V9 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:49:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13855 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dih4O-0003iW-Av for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:13:17 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:49:34 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:49:33 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:49:32 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) Thread-Index: AcVx+3ycoMM0tS2pSF2cdptR7VeYTAAAK79g From: "Peter Constable" To: "Addison Phillips" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2005 22:49:33.0921 (UTC) FILETIME=[7FC48510:01C571FC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Typo: change =FD"...which do not have an associated ISO 3166 MUST NOT..."=FD to "...which do not have an associated ISO 3166 two-letter code MUST = NOT..." (or "numeric code"? "code"?) Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On Behalf Of > Addison Phillips > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:42 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) >=20 > All, >=20 > Based on my suggestion that we forbid UN M.49 codes except for the = by-rule > registrations, I made the following changes in the draft: >=20 > (in 2.2.4 "Region") >=20 > All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do not have = an associated > ISO 3166 MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to = form > language tags. For more information about these codes, see target=3D"ianastability">. >=20 > (in 3.3 "Stability") >=20 > For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is = associated with a UN > M.49 code that is not represented by an existing region subtag, then = the Language > Subtag Reviewer, as described in , = SHALL prepare a > proposal for entering the appropriate UN M.49 country code as an entry = in the IANA > registry. >=20 > Codes assigned by UN M.49 to countries or areas (as opposed to = geographical > regions and sub-regions) for which there is no corresponding ISO 3166 = code MUST > NOT be registered, except under the previous provision. If it is = necessary to identify a > region for which only a UN M.49 code exists in language tags, then the = registration > authority for ISO 3166 SHOULD be petitioned to assign a code, which = can then be > registered for use in language tags. At the time this document was = written, there were > only four such codes: 830 (Channel Islands), 831 (Guernsey), 832 = (Jersey), and 833 > (Isle of Man). This rule exists so that UN M.49 codes remain available = as the value of > last resort in cases where ISO 3166 reassigns a deprecated value in = the registry. >=20 > --- >=20 > See the newly posted editor's copy. >=20 > Randy: what's left? I show #944 and #1026 addressed by the editor's = copy. This > leaves #1033 (Written Spoken Signed)? >=20 > If we can close that we could (with the co-chair's approval) prepare = an LC version. In > any event, I will be submitting draft-05 tonight. >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com >=20 > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 18:56:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DigoR-0006Gw-9v; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:56:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DigoQ-0006Go-4x for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:56:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14376 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DihBC-0004Cw-DP for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:20:18 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:56:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:56:35 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2910@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) Thread-Index: AcVx+3ycoMM0tS2pSF2cdptR7VeYTAAAK79gAABMJjA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2005 22:56:36.0978 (UTC) FILETIME=[7BEDE520:01C571FD] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Good catch. Thanks. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > Sent: 2005?6?15? 15:50 > To: Addison Phillips; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) >=20 > Typo: change >=20 > =FD"...which do not have an associated ISO 3166 MUST NOT..."=FD >=20 > to >=20 > "...which do not have an associated ISO 3166 two-letter code MUST = NOT..." > (or "numeric code"? "code"?) >=20 >=20 > Peter >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On Behalf Of > > Addison Phillips > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:42 PM > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: [Ltru] changes to deal with UN M.49 (#1026?) > > > > All, > > > > Based on my suggestion that we forbid UN M.49 codes except for the = by- > rule > > registrations, I made the following changes in the draft: > > > > (in 2.2.4 "Region") > > > > All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do not = have > an associated > > ISO 3166 MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used = to > form > > language tags. For more information about these codes, see > target=3D"ianastability">. > > > > (in 3.3 "Stability") > > > > For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is > associated with a UN > > M.49 code that is not represented by an existing region subtag, then = the > Language > > Subtag Reviewer, as described in , > SHALL prepare a > > proposal for entering the appropriate UN M.49 country code as an = entry > in the IANA > > registry. > > > > Codes assigned by UN M.49 to countries or areas (as opposed to > geographical > > regions and sub-regions) for which there is no corresponding ISO = 3166 > code MUST > > NOT be registered, except under the previous provision. If it is > necessary to identify a > > region for which only a UN M.49 code exists in language tags, then = the > registration > > authority for ISO 3166 SHOULD be petitioned to assign a code, which = can > then be > > registered for use in language tags. At the time this document was > written, there were > > only four such codes: 830 (Channel Islands), 831 (Guernsey), 832 > (Jersey), and 833 > > (Isle of Man). This rule exists so that UN M.49 codes remain = available > as the value of > > last resort in cases where ISO 3166 reassigns a deprecated value in = the > registry. > > > > --- > > > > See the newly posted editor's copy. > > > > Randy: what's left? I show #944 and #1026 addressed by the editor's = copy. > This > > leaves #1033 (Written Spoken Signed)? > > > > If we can close that we could (with the co-chair's approval) prepare = an > LC version. In > > any event, I will be submitting draft-05 tonight. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > http://www.quest.com > > > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > http://www.w3.org/International > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 19:53:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dihhf-0001AI-Lm; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:53:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dihhe-0001AA-Kp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:53:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17597 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dii4Q-0007KH-Mw for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:17:23 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-237.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.237] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DihhY-0003Xe-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:53:44 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c57205$f0792000$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <00c701c571e8$44242ce0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42B0A3A6.7694@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:56:54 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 2:54 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list ... > We _could_ do what the tag reviewer and the listmom want, > anybody else is free to use killfiles. I think that all > list owners (or their delegates) can adopt RfC 3934, e.g. > the SPF list owner did this. Works like a charm, I have > collected one "private mail warning" so far. Bye, Frank ... RFC 3934 is clearly in terms of giving authority to working group chairs. In the case of ietf-languages@iana.org, there isn't a working group chair per se. Thus RFC 3934 wouldn't be applicable unless we were to add language saying we wanted it to apply. To make it work, we'd need to identify who, for purposes of that process, would fulfill the role normally taken on by a WG chair. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 20:03:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dihqy-0003Xt-Mh; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:03:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dihqs-0003JJ-D7; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:03:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18580; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DiiDQ-0007rO-Fy; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:26:43 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:02:51 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C57206.BD716CE2" Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:02:52 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: LTRU registry draft-05 Thread-Index: AcVyBrfw6no01nFLThu0h8AJhdLMKA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jun 2005 00:02:51.0596 (UTC) FILETIME=[BCFC78C0:01C57206] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9bf28855f2259bf85b647ed5bd156abb Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-05 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org This is a multi-part 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Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dijhp-0000oQ-9Y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:02:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA28909 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dik4c-0006Ke-Ck for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:25:43 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dijhe-0000ZJ-Ge; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:01:58 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 03:02:15 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: SG Dot-Root In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.c om> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] privateuse format X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I would like to know if there is an objection to a privateuse format larger than 8 alphanum and to the use of "." in the privateuse field? Thank you. F. Charles. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 22:18:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dijxy-0003s4-1K; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dijxw-0003rx-SS for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07594 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DikKh-0007Hi-Tm for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:42:23 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5G2IRSX029376 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:27 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5G2IRwU255574 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:27 -0400 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5G2IQe2031147 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:26 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-111-1.mts.ibm.com [9.48.111.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5G2IPjI031108; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:26 -0400 Message-ID: <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: , "SG Dot-Root" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:18:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e3.ny.us.ibm.com id j5G2IRSX029376 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Yes. That would break backwards compatibility with RFC 3066. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "SG Dot-Root" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 18:02 Subject: [Ltru] privateuse format > I would like to know if there is an objection to a privateuse format larger > than 8 alphanum and to the use of "." in the privateuse field? > Thank you. > F. Charles. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 22:22:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dik1N-0004FJ-2K; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:22:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dik1L-0004FE-Gx for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:22:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10073 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DikO6-0007UJ-SK for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:45:54 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5G2M2NP029695; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:22:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:22:02 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format Message-ID: <20050616022202.GC2812@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org SG Dot-Root scripsit: > I would like to know if there is an objection to a privateuse format larger > than 8 alphanum and to the use of "." in the privateuse field? That would prevent backward compatibility with RFC 3066, which is an explicit goal of this revision. So yes, there is an objection. -- There is / One art John Cowan No more / No less http://www.reutershealth.com To do / All things http://www.ccil.org/~cowan With art- / Lessness -- Piet Hein _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 23:03:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dikfb-0002HD-SL; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:03:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dikfa-0002H8-3f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:03:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09297 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dil2N-0002or-RP for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:27:29 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DikfX-0006xL-LB; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:03:51 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:03:43 +0200 To: "Mark Davis" , From: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format In-Reply-To: <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id XAA09297 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 04:18 16/06/2005, Mark Davis wrote: >Yes. That would break backwards compatibility with RFC 3066. I have a difficulty to understand this. privateuse means that the programer knows that the reader will support hi= s=20 subtag? If the reader is not compatible, the programer will not use the subtag. If it does not work it is his risk. But if it works he can do more. would your thinking be the same for a "z-16*"? altuse field for example? = I=20 mean a new field? F. Charles. >=E2=80=8EMark > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "SG Dot-Root" >To: >Cc: >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 18:02 >Subject: [Ltru] privateuse format > > > > I would like to know if there is an objection to a privateuse format >larger > > than 8 alphanum and to the use of "." in the privateuse field? > > Thank you. > > F. Charles. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 23:18:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dikte-0005KY-NY; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:18:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Diktc-0005I9-Pj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:18:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10002 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DilGR-0003qv-9K for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:41:59 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5G3I7tp029885; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:18:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:18:06 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format Message-ID: <20050616031806.GD2812@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org SG Dot-Root scripsit: > I have a difficulty to understand this. > privateuse means that the programer knows that the reader will support his > subtag? > If the reader is not compatible, the programer will not use the subtag. > If it does not work it is his risk. But if it works he can do more. The semantics of a private-use subtag is not defined, but its syntax is, because the syntax of tags has been essentially unchanged since RFC 1766. -- MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE WUGGUMS John Cowan http://www.reutershealth.com jcowan@reutershealth.com _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 23:37:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DilC2-00009Q-E1; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:37:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DilC1-00009L-Lk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:37:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11826 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DilYp-0005KN-JF for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:01:00 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DilBw-00009m-W2 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:37:21 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616053552.04186420@mail.dot-root.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:37:12 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org On 05:18 16/06/2005, John.Cowan said: >SG Dot-Root scripsit: > > > I have a difficulty to understand this. > > privateuse means that the programer knows that the reader will support his > > subtag? > > If the reader is not compatible, the programer will not use the subtag. > > If it does not work it is his risk. But if it works he can do more. > >The semantics of a private-use subtag is not defined, but its syntax is, >because the syntax of tags has been essentially unchanged since RFC 1766. Then why to change if one cannot change? My need is new, the RFC is new, my users are new, this is private for my users? What happens if I use "x-dotroots.harold-IE-cork"? ("dotroots" makes 8 alphanum)? Thank-you. F. Charles _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 15 23:46:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DilKe-00026X-D0; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:46:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DilKd-00026S-5q for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:46:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12431 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DilhR-00068f-9u for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:09:54 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5G3k5EC000012; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:46:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:46:04 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format Message-ID: <20050616034604.GE2812@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616031806.GD2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616052736.0417ceb0@mail.dot-root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616052736.0417ceb0@mail.dot-root.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org SG Dot-Root scripsit: > Then why to change if one cannot change? > My need is new, the RFC is new, my users are new, this is private for my > users? This update provides a whole bunch of tags which do not need to be registered one by one, but all of them *could* have been registered in the past; there are no "new" ones in that sense. (The next revision will add genuinely new tags, but only a minimal change to the syntax will be involved.) > What happens if I use "x-dotroots.harold-IE-cork"? ("dotroots" makes 8 > alphanum)? You won't be compliant. Why not use a hyphen instead of the dot? -- Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes John Cowan of a creatific thinkerizer. http://www.reutershealth.com -- Peter da Silva http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 16 00:05:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DildA-0005bG-G3; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:05:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dild9-0005bB-1s for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:05:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13587 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dilzx-0007fK-7G for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:29:02 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:05:16 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:05:15 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] privateuse format Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:05:13 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] privateuse format Thread-Index: AcVyIDdHScHG2oLYR4y9XgSxSFJZwAACB/JQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jun 2005 04:05:15.0378 (UTC) FILETIME=[99C17D20:01C57228] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of SG Dot-Root > I have a difficulty to understand this. > privateuse means that the programer knows that the reader will support his > subtag? > If the reader is not compatible, the programer will not use the subtag. > If it does not work it is his risk. But if it works he can do more. We're talking about private-use within the terms of this tagging specification. When you start talking about custom software, you're talking about a private-use tagging specification. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 16 08:40:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ditg0-0003Fp-0L; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:40:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ditfr-0003Fh-Di for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:40:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14944 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Diu2k-0004MN-6U for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:04:27 -0400 Received: from i01m-124-26.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.167.26] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Ditfg-00014X-IC; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:40:37 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616141137.048d8c70@mail.dot-root.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:40:24 +0200 To: "John.Cowan" From: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format In-Reply-To: <20050616034604.GE2812@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616031806.GD2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616052736.0417ceb0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616034604.GE2812@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org My computer just destroyed all my out mails for three months. I do not know if you received my response? At 05:46 16/06/2005, John.Cowan wrote: >Why not use a hyphen instead of the dot? Because this would be confusing. I would only like to pass a comment. "x-fr.comment-sn". If the current libraries read this as "x-fr-sn" I am happy. The new libraries can use the comment. The only need is to say "subtags are finished with dot". F. Charles _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 16 15:50:40 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj0Ns-0006nX-Il; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj0NN-0006ei-Lf; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00700; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dj0kH-0008IZ-5w; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:13:49 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dj0NG-00058I-Dq; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt Pages : 62 Date : 2005-6-16 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. 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Thread-Index: AcVy0XaD3B6x4G6EQa6Vkcwnu6TMEg== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2005 00:14:05.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[7905ED10:01C572D1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] variants in the draft... 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Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:28:22 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:14 PM > Subject: [Ltru] variants in the draft... > > Since the co-chairs have seemed to indicate that we are near to last call, > there is one particular housekeeping item we need to consider: > > We've removed initial registration of variants. What should be done > with variant examples in Appendix B and elsewhere? I can go and make > them all hypothetical, but that does make one wonder if some of the > variants might not be immediately suitable. > > - Suggestion: we removed initial registration of variants because some > of them are problematic (lojban). Instead I think we should make a list > of ones that will be registered initially and place it in the draft. Which draft? The registry draft, or the initial registry? > The initial list should be made of subtags that meet reasonable criteria > for variants (i.e. they describe variations in a language). > > The list to include would be: > > -1901 (Prefix: de) > -1996 (Prefix: de) > -nedis (Prefix: sl) > -rozaj (Prefix: sl) > > The list NOT to include would be: > > zh-guoyu > zh-hakka > zh-xiang > en-boont > en-scouse (on the bubble??) > cel-gaulish (on the bubble??) > art-lojban > > (All other registrations are redundant or grandfathered by other rules) > > This not only gives us some useful examples, but it saves some work > doing registrations that would probably be desirable anyway. > > Addison ... Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 16 20:28:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj4iS-0007Zr-47; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:28:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj4iQ-0007Zm-QF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:28:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA00247 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dj55Q-0001p6-Qk for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:51:57 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:28:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] variants in the draft... Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:28:00 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2F17@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] variants in the draft... Thread-Index: AcVy0yAsvn5jtBt3TdW5sabOXqbHowAACkYQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2005 00:28:01.0515 (UTC) FILETIME=[6B6193B0:01C572D3] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Registry draft: instructions to do it, the list of items, and updates to = examples Initial registry: the records (per the registry draft) Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?16? 17:28 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] variants in the draft... >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:14 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] variants in the draft... > > >=20 > > Since the co-chairs have seemed to indicate that we are near to last > call, > > there is one particular housekeeping item we need to consider: > > > > We've removed initial registration of variants. What should be done > > with variant examples in Appendix B and elsewhere? I can go and make > > them all hypothetical, but that does make one wonder if some of the > > variants might not be immediately suitable. > > > > - Suggestion: we removed initial registration of variants because = some > > of them are problematic (lojban). Instead I think we should make a = list > > of ones that will be registered initially and place it in the draft. >=20 > Which draft? The registry draft, or the initial registry? >=20 > > The initial list should be made of subtags that meet reasonable = criteria > > for variants (i.e. they describe variations in a language). > > > > The list to include would be: > > > > -1901 (Prefix: de) > > -1996 (Prefix: de) > > -nedis (Prefix: sl) > > -rozaj (Prefix: sl) > > > > The list NOT to include would be: > > > > zh-guoyu > > zh-hakka > > zh-xiang > > en-boont > > en-scouse (on the bubble??) > > cel-gaulish (on the bubble??) > > art-lojban > > > > (All other registrations are redundant or grandfathered by other = rules) > > > > This not only gives us some useful examples, but it saves some work > > doing registrations that would probably be desirable anyway. > > > > Addison > ... >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 16 20:29:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj4jm-0007lp-9B; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj4jl-0007lk-7c for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA00310 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.142]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dj56j-0001xH-76 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:53:19 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5H0TMGY007290 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:22 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (d01av03.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.217]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5H0TMan222910 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:22 -0400 Received: from d01av03.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5H0TLwT024223 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:21 -0400 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-126-32.mts.ibm.com [9.48.126.32]) by d01av03.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5H0TK22024192; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:29:21 -0400 Message-ID: <021101c572d3$999bfd10$207e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2EFE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] variants in the draft... Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:29:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e2.ny.us.ibm.com id j5H0TMGY007290 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I like that idea. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 17:14 Subject: [Ltru] variants in the draft... > Since the co-chairs have seemed to indicate that we are near to last ca= ll, there is one particular housekeeping item we need to consider: > > We've removed initial registration of variants. What should be done wit= h variant examples in Appendix B and elsewhere? I can go and make them all hypothetical, but that does make one wonder if some of the variants might not be immediately suitable. > > - Suggestion: we removed initial registration of variants because some = of them are problematic (lojban). Instead I think we should make a list of o= nes that will be registered initially and place it in the draft. The initial list should be made of subtags that meet reasonable criteria for variants (i.e. they describe variations in a language). > > The list to include would be: > > -1901 (Prefix: de) > -1996 (Prefix: de) > -nedis (Prefix: sl) > -rozaj (Prefix: sl) > > The list NOT to include would be: > > zh-guoyu > zh-hakka > zh-xiang > en-boont > en-scouse (on the bubble??) > cel-gaulish (on the bubble??) > art-lojban > > (All other registrations are redundant or grandfathered by other rules) > > This not only gives us some useful examples, but it saves some work doi= ng registrations that would probably be desirable anyway. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 02:04:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj9xR-0002QP-OF; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:04:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dj9xR-0002QK-0P for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:04:01 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA29198 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050617060329.IPPO17140.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:03:29 -0400 Message-ID: <008b01c57301$3ab30720$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:55:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I've created a ticket for the following item, but apparently messed up the part where it gets automatically posted to the list. Oops. Please refer to the ticket number if you wish to address this item. Remember that this ticket is against the initial registry, not the draft. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - In January 2005, the UN Statistics Division revised their list of macrogeographical codes, deleting 062 ("South-central Asia") and replacing it with 034 ("Southern Asia") and 143 ("Central Asia"). The two new codes cover exactly the same countries as the old code; the difference is that the former Soviet "Stans" -- KZ, KG, TJ, TM, and UZ -- have been moved to the new "Central Asia" category. Modifying the initial LTRU registry before "Date B" to match the current UN list would have no effect on existing language tags, since numeric region subtags were not valid under RFC 3066. Shall the initial LTRU registry be modified to (a) add region subtags 034 and 143 and (b) delete region subtag 062? -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 08:54:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjGMa-0005Sz-QS; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:54:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjGMY-0005SV-1H for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:54:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12901 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjGjb-0001pl-U0 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:18:13 -0400 Received: from i01m-124-26.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.167.26] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DjGME-00073X-Ji for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:54:02 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617114356.05527c80@mail.dot-root.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:53:57 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050616141137.048d8c70@mail.dot-root.com> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616031806.GD2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616052736.0417ceb0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616034604.GE2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616141137.048d8c70@mail.dot-root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I am sorry to insist. I do not understand the real purpose of a limited format for open private use. 1. the subtags are not registered. This means that users will not act upon them if they have not private libraries knowing what to do? 2. if the subtag format is not 8alphanum the existing general purpose libraries will fail. 3. if the subtag format in the RFC 3066 bis is enhanced the only impact is non-8alphanum will not fail on new general libraries (with no action). This means that if RFC 3066 bis says the private field is free. That it ends with "-". And that one could understand "." as internal separator. Then "x-fr.comment-sn" 1. existing libraries will result in error. I am not bothered. RFC 3066 bis will probably make everyone to update. 2. new libraries will not result in error and some may read and use it as "x-fr-sn". 3. private libraries will be able to use "comment". ? F. Charles. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 09:50:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjHEV-0000Lb-Sr; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjHEU-0000LW-HB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:06 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18660 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050617134934.KKHE14360.mta13.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:49:34 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c57343$5de32ee0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050615224316.DBCF2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:49:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > As an observer of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, it seems > to me that the registry draft might benefit from an explicit statement > about the applicability of RFC 3683 or some other means of maintaining > order on that mailing list. Using RFC 3683 itself seems too > heavyweight, but RFC 3934 is formulated in terms of working groups. > > Separate from the language tag reviewer, would it make sense to > appoint the administrator of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, > and to empower the administrator to fulfil the role of "WG chair" > *solely* for the purpose of carrying out the procedures of RFC 3934 > for that mailing list? > > Would it make more sense to lift the appropriate paragraphs from 3934, > substituting phrases to fit the ietf-languages situation? > > Or should we just leave things as they are? The current administrator of that list has, of course, just exercised something comparable to RFC 3934, while acknowledging that it was a personal list-owner's right and not provided in RFC 3934. It might not be a bad idea to include a short statement to the effect that the list administrator has authority to maintain order, and lift an appropriate passage, or maybe a reference to RFC 3934 together with a clarification that it is expressly being applied to a non-WG list. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 10:28:05 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjHpF-0006zf-6y; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:28:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjHpE-0006za-Az for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:28:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22855 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjICJ-00005A-N5 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:51:58 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:26:53 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:26:53 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] privateuse format Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:26:53 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] privateuse format Thread-Index: AcVzPhJYM5rBmU+xT6WqXEBf6u5MWAACJdAw From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2005 14:26:53.0832 (UTC) FILETIME=[9BC7A880:01C57348] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of SG > Dot-Root > I am sorry to insist. I do not understand the real purpose of a limited > format for open private use. A consensus was established **LONG** ago that the syntax for 3066bis would remain backward compatible with 3066. That applies equally to all conformant tags, including private-use tags. This ensures that tags will not break existing implementations. It's as simple as that. > 2. if the subtag format is not 8alphanum the existing general purpose > libraries will fail. You mean, 1*8alphanum (one to eight); otherwise, yes. Hence the rejection of what you are asking. > 3. if the subtag format in the RFC 3066 bis is enhanced the only impact is > non-8alphanum will not fail on new general libraries (with no action). No; the impact is failure of existing libraries. Unacceptable. > 1. existing libraries will result in error. I am not bothered. Then you are a lone exception to the consensus. The consensus will not change, however. The vast majority here will insist on that. =20 Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 12:09:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjJP8-0002Y9-RF; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:09:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjJP7-0002SF-Ab for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:09:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00859 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjJmE-0007dm-Kt for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:33:07 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5HG8tDS008710; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:08:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:08:54 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format Message-ID: <20050617160854.GC2972@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616031806.GD2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616052736.0417ceb0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616034604.GE2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616141137.048d8c70@mail.dot-root.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050617114356.05527c80@mail.dot-root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617114356.05527c80@mail.dot-root.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org SG Dot-Root scripsit: > 1. existing libraries will result in error. I am not bothered. RFC 3066 bis > will probably make everyone to update. On the contrary. One of the design points for RFC 3066bis was that existing libraries would continue to function just fine, because every tag valid under RFC 3066bis was at least potentially valid (that is, would have been valid if properly registered) under RFC 3066. -- The first thing you learn in a lawin' family John Cowan is that there ain't no definite answers jcowan@reutershealth.com to anything. --Calpurnia in To Kill A Mockingbird _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 14:21:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjLT4-0000Co-PT; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:21:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjLT3-000097-5K for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:21:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09820 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjLq9-000052-DO for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:45:18 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:21:05 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:21:03 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55B51@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: draft-06 and variants.. and last call ? Thread-Index: AcVzaU8TcfCrYR+aRZK2STEbM/n2Tg== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2005 18:21:05.0301 (UTC) FILETIME=[531BAC50:01C57369] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] draft-06 and variants.. and last call ? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2133868759==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============2133868759== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGVyIG15IGVtYWlsIHllc3RlcmRheSwgSSBoYXZlIHVwZGF0ZWQgdGhlIGVkaXRvcidzIGNvcHkg d2l0aCBjaGFuZ2VzIGRlYWxpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUgRm91ciBWYXJpYW50cy4gU2VlOg0KDQpodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LXJlZ2lzdHJ5LTA2Lmh0 bWwNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaW50ZXItbG9jYWxlLmNvbS9JRC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtcmVnaXN0 cnktMDYudHh0DQoNClBhY2UgRG91ZydzIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gdGhpcyBtb3JuaW5nIGFib3V0IHJl ZmVyZW5jaW5nIFJGQzM5MzQsIHdoYXQgcmVtYWlucz8gT2ggTWlnaHR5IENvLUNoYWlyczogZGFy ZSBJIGJyb2FjaCB0aGUgc3ViamVjdCBvZiBhIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBhbmQgaG93IHdlIHJlYWNoIHRo YXQ/DQoNCkFkZGlzb24NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQLiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNo aXRlY3QsIFF1ZXN0IFNvZnR3YXJlDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnF1ZXN0LmNvbQ0KDQpDaGFpciwgVzND IEludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIENvcmUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5v cmcvSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbA0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJl Lg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLiANCg0KDQo= --===============2133868759== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2133868759==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 15:42:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjMjD-0005Hm-8Z; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:42:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjMjC-0005Hh-11 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:42:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17045 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjN6L-0005qj-92 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:06:06 -0400 Received: from i01m-124-26.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.167.26] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DjMj0-0003gY-NY for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:41:59 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617183847.05619c90@mail.dot-root.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:41:49 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: SG Dot-Root Subject: Re: [Ltru] privateuse format In-Reply-To: <20050617160854.GC2972@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA293E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616025723.04c530a0@mail.dot-root.com> <0a1001c57219$ac9f5840$76d52b09@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616045656.04c692b0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616031806.GD2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616052736.0417ceb0@mail.dot-root.com> <20050616034604.GE2812@NYCMJCOWA2> <6.2.1.2.2.20050616141137.048d8c70@mail.dot-root.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050617114356.05527c80@mail.dot-root.com> <20050617160854.GC2972@NYCMJCOWA2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org On 18:08 17/06/2005, John.Cowan said: >SG Dot-Root scripsit: > > > 1. existing libraries will result in error. I am not bothered. RFC 3066 > bis > > will probably make everyone to update. > >On the contrary. One of the design points for RFC 3066bis was that existing >libraries would continue to function just fine, because every tag valid >under RFC 3066bis was at least potentially valid (that is, would have been >valid if properly registered) under RFC 3066. There can be conflict only for old libraries using new applications. But the old libraries do not support the new features. So if I want to use the new features I need the new libaries. I have another way to address the need: to register in the applications registry one tag per language and per comment: 7500 * comment nr. With ISO 639-6 20.000 * comment nr. This may quickly make billions of entries. All this just to stay compatible with a non used experimental format? F. Charles. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 16:05:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjN6A-0000bi-Em; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:05:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjN68-0000aq-TG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:05:53 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18234 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjN0V-0001eA-21 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:00:03 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:00:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:00:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:01:41 +0200 Organization: Lines: 20 Message-ID: <42B32C25.1466@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050615224316.DBCF2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <001601c57343$5de32ee0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > It might not be a bad idea to include a short statement to > the effect that the list administrator has authority to > maintain order, and lift an appropriate passage, or maybe a > reference to RFC 3934 together with a clarification that it > is expressly being applied to a non-WG list. No problem if the list owner wants it, but it's tricky: Who appoints the moderator, what if the list owner doesn't agree, where's the appeal and recall procedure, can the tag reviewer also be the moderator, etc. ad nauseam. Maybe it's simpler to solve these problems generally for all review lists, add them to the general area and let the Chair pro forma appoint the list owner as listmom. Randy's plan B "Or should we just leave things as they are?" is attractive. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 16:16:29 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjNGP-0002jw-CJ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:16:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjNGN-0002jO-I8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:16:27 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19004 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjNAe-0003aQ-6g for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:10:32 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:10:32 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:10:32 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:09:14 +0200 Organization: Lines: 7 Message-ID: <42B32DEA.3D3B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2EFE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <021101c572d3$999bfd10$207e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: variants in the draft... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I like that idea. Me too, but you changed tons of en-boont to en-scouse, without scouse you'd have to change this again to nedis or rozaj. Bye _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 16:19:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjNJO-0003HL-3z; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:19:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjNJL-0003HG-Lc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:19:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19212 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjNgU-0008O8-GN for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:43:27 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:19:14 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: variants in the draft... Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:19:13 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55C35@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: variants in the draft... Thread-Index: AcVzeY5llPuIgw4hS6ivaHkSJKSOEQAAB62A From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2005 20:19:14.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[D467D9E0:01C57379] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Did it already. Or to 1996 or 1901. These make better examples anyway. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?17? 13:09 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: variants in the draft... >=20 > Mark Davis wrote: >=20 > > I like that idea. >=20 > Me too, but you changed tons of en-boont to en-scouse, without > scouse you'd have to change this again to nedis or rozaj. Bye >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 17 16:48:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjNli-000800-Qh; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:48:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjNle-0007yj-CG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:48:46 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20890 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjNfU-0000ws-S4 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:42:24 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:42:24 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:42:24 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:46:57 +0200 Organization: Lines: 8 Message-ID: <42B336C1.67CC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55C35@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: variants in the draft... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Did it already. Or to 1996 or 1901. > These make better examples anyway. German readers might disagree with "better" in many strictly incompatible ways. ;-) Bye _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 00:49:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjVGl-0002D5-RO; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:49:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjVGk-0002D0-EY for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:49:22 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19915 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050618044850.KICC24042.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:48:50 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01c573c0$fd744de0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:48:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: variants in the draft... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Did it already. Or to 1996 or 1901. >> These make better examples anyway. > > German readers might disagree with "better" > in many strictly incompatible ways. ;-) Bye They'll certainly disagree as to whether the Rechtschreibung was a good thing, and they might disagree about the need to tag the difference between old and new. They can't deny that the change took place, though. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 05:03:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjZEi-00062S-2l; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:03:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjZEf-00061W-RW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:03:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA25503 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjZbw-0002LJ-Ra for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:27:33 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DjZEd-00029J-Be for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:03:27 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618104438.04404960@pop.online.fr> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:03:20 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: r&d afrac Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 995b2e24d23b953c94bac5288c432399 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] review of the day. X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 20:21 17/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: >Oh Mighty Co-Chairs: dare I broach the subject of a Last Call and how we >reach that? Before that there must be the debate on the WG-ltru Charter! I recall that I committed to produce my own Draft within 2 weeks after the end of that debate. I removed myself from the WG-ltru seeing that its would lead to nowhere but to contention (as a remark of Addison on another list shown it), as long as we would not have discussed and agreed on a common and involved reading of the Charter. If that debate was not to occur I would have to start a private WG on the issue and to inform the IESG of the reasons why. I would prefer not. NB. I submit from several face to face meetings and from a substantial number of mail exchanges with members of this list and people waiting for the debate on the "thorny points of the Charter", there is _no_ observed consensus of the targets of this WG. I submit that there is however the possibility to find an agreement between the two prevailing positions which are: - to impose to the whole internet, as BCP 47, the complex increase of rules of Draft 3066 bis, which is a non ISO conformant (I quote the positions over OSI 11179) and non scalable solution (quotes a plenty) - to fully permit (and even extend) that solution in its own area (XML/HTML/CLDR classification) through a dedicated RFC based upon the two current draft specialised parts. To fulfill the Charter requirements through a scalable simplification of RFC 3066, based upon the acquired experience, RFC 1958 guidelines and a correlation with the ISO equivalent works (ISO 639-3-4-5-6) and registry extensibility doctrine (ISO 11179) as per ISO 639-6 (as indicated by Debbie Garside). At 01:56 16/06/2005, Randy Presuhn wrote RFC 3934 is clearly in terms of giving authority to working group chairs. >In the case of ietf-languages@iana.org, there isn't a working group chair >per se. Thus RFC 3934 wouldn't be applicable unless we were to >add language saying we wanted it to apply. To make it work, we'd need >to identify who, for purposes of that process, would fulfill the role normally >taken on by a WG chair. And by the AD. At 15:49 17/06/2005, Doug Ewell wrote: >Randy Presuhn wrote: > > As an observer of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, it seems > > to me that the registry draft might benefit from an explicit statement > > about the applicability of RFC 3683 or some other means of maintaining > > order on that mailing list. Using RFC 3683 itself seems too > > heavyweight, but RFC 3934 is formulated in terms of working groups. > > > > Separate from the language tag reviewer, would it make sense to > > appoint the administrator of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, > > and to empower the administrator to fulfil the role of "WG chair" > > *solely* for the purpose of carrying out the procedures of RFC 3934 > > for that mailing list? > > > > Would it make more sense to lift the appropriate paragraphs from 3934, > > substituting phrases to fit the ietf-languages situation? > > > > Or should we just leave things as they are? > >The current administrator of that list has, of course, just exercised >something comparable to RFC 3934, while acknowledging that it was a >personal list-owner's right and not provided in RFC 3934. The problem Harald faced was I say that ietf-languages@alvestrand.no is not the mailing list documented by RFC 3066, is not operated by the IANA, does not benefit from the exposure of a IANA list, does not respect the RFC 3066 procedures, is an ad hominems (*) and foul language place. At the occasion of a specific problem and of the legitimate debate on its implications (relation of the registry with other industry/ISO/MPEG registry) denied by the IESG designated Examiner, he saw that my support was gaining momentum. To stop this his only solution was to confirm my evaluation. He acknowledged that this list was a personal list, where the RFC 3934 procedure is not respected, and appeals ignored. I will not appeal to IESG/IAB (a private list is a privae list) but I will use this published (and list members' accepted, cf. above) position to document near tha IESG, IAB and IANA that: 1. the ietf-languages@iana.org isto be a IANA organized and chaired list to help the Examiner(s) chosen by IESG 2. the rules of the IANA/IETF/ICANN MoU apply to it - including appeal to the IESG and IAB 3. reach out of that list benefits from the adequate exposure on the IANA site. (*) ad hominems show that this list is not an IETF list: On 14:52 17/06/2005, Brian E Carpenter said: >>I thought that ad hominem attacks were considered unacceptable on this list? >On any IETF list, actually. It's best all round if people remain >professional and polite, however strong the disagreement. >It might not be a bad idea to include a short statement to the effect >that the list administrator has authority to maintain order, and lift an >appropriate passage, or maybe a reference to RFC 3934 together with a >clarification that it is expressly being applied to a non-WG list. Its administrator is the IANA. The IANA is to decide the rules. But anyone in this position must be in the same position as the ISO MA. His name and address must be indicated. Appeals procedures documented. Process must be go by the rules not by fear of "pissing off" a collaborator. At 22:01 17/06/2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: >No problem if the list owner wants it, but it's tricky: Who >appoints the moderator, what if the list owner doesn't agree, >where's the appeal and recall procedure, can the tag reviewer >also be the moderator, etc. ad nauseam. ad nauseam seems to be a true characterisation. The capacity to remove the Chair must also be granted. 4.5. ... For protocols within the IETF scope (i.e., registries created by IETF action), appeals against such denials may be made to the IESG and subsequently to the IAB as provided in 4.2 above. I take this occasion to recall to the Chair of this WG the subsequent part of the agreement: 4.6. The IANA shall have non-voting liaison seats on appropriate IETF committees as determined by the IETF, and may participate in all IETF discussions concerning technical requirements for protocol parameter assignment through such liaisons. 4.7. The IANA shall review all documents in IETF Last Call to identify any issues of concern to the IANA, and shall raise these issues with the IESG. At the end of the day this means Doug Barton participating to the work of this WG. I suggested several time it was the role of the Chairs to discuss with him if we could not speed up the process in inviting him. , >Maybe it's simpler to solve these problems generally for all >review lists, add them to the general area and let the Chair >pro forma appoint the list owner as listmom. No. This situation is ruled by RFC 2860. >Randy's plan B "Or should we just leave things as they are?" is attractive. I would suggest not: I am going to use my "banning from a IANA list exercised by a private person without the protection of RFC 3934 rules nor the appeal capacity of RFC 2860" to oppose the Draft 3066 bis. The propositions I made above are probably good enough. >There can be conflict only for old libraries using new applications. But >the old libraries do not support the new features. So if I want to use the >new features I need the new libaries. > >I have another way to address the need: to register in the applications >registry one tag per language and per comment: 7500 * comment nr. With ISO >639-6 20.000 * comment nr. This may quickly make billions of entries. All >this just to stay compatible with a non used experimental format? >F. Charles. You do not necessarily need to do that. I suggest you use the x-tags format x-6aaaabbb we are discussing at AFRAC. - x-6 is a prefix for ISO 639-6 codes. - aaaa is an ISO 639-6 cod - bbb is a comment code. You can register nearly 40000 of them (that anyone car read in his own langage) - aaaa being a concept, you can use bbb as container name for the associate values by a referent following an ISO 11179 logic: this way you can link many many things, while keeping your page crispy. This way you stay conform to the old experimental RFC 1776 they want to respect - even if this Draft passed you are all correct. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 13:59:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjhbI-0001Ri-DK; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:59:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjReg-0004Ob-Da for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:57:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07067 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjS1s-0002EE-3I for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:21:49 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DjReT-0002OF-Os for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:57:38 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618010305.041e2690@pop.online.fr> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 02:57:31 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: Jefsey Morfin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - online.fr X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:59:23 -0400 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] review of the day. X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 20:21 17/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: >Oh Mighty Co-Chairs: dare I broach the subject of a Last Call and how we >reach that? Before that there must be the debate on the WG-ltru Charter. I recall that I committed to produce my own Draft within 2 weeks after the end of that debate. I removed myself from the WG-ltru seeing that its would lead nowhere but to contention (as a remark of Addison on another list shown it) as long as we would not have discussed and agreed on a common and involved reading of the Charter. NB. I submit from several face to face meetings and from a substantial number of mail exchanges with members of this list and people waiting for the debate on the "thorny points of the Charter", there is _no_ observed consensus of the target of this WG. I submit that there is however the possibility to find an agreement between the two prevailing positions which are: - to impose to the whole internet as BCP 47, the complex increase of rules of Draft 3066 bis, non ISO conformant (I quote positions over OSI 11179) non scalable solution (quotes a plenty) - to fully permit that solution in its own area (XML/HTML/CLDR classification) through a dedicated RFC in line with fulfillment of the Charter requirements through a scalable simplification of RFC 3066, based upon the acquired experience, RFC 1958 guidelines and a correlation with the ISO equivalent works and registry extensibility doctrine. At 01:56 16/06/2005, Randy Presuhn wrote RFC 3934 is clearly in terms of giving authority to working group chairs. >In the case of ietf-languages@iana.org, there isn't a working group chair >per se. Thus RFC 3934 wouldn't be applicable unless we were to >add language saying we wanted it to apply. To make it work, we'd need >to identify who, for purposes of that process, would fulfill the role normally >taken on by a WG chair. And by the AD. At 15:49 17/06/2005, Doug Ewell wrote: >Randy Presuhn wrote: > > As an observer of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, it seems > > to me that the registry draft might benefit from an explicit statement > > about the applicability of RFC 3683 or some other means of maintaining > > order on that mailing list. Using RFC 3683 itself seems too > > heavyweight, but RFC 3934 is formulated in terms of working groups. > > > > Separate from the language tag reviewer, would it make sense to > > appoint the administrator of the ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list, > > and to empower the administrator to fulfil the role of "WG chair" > > *solely* for the purpose of carrying out the procedures of RFC 3934 > > for that mailing list? > > > > Would it make more sense to lift the appropriate paragraphs from 3934, > > substituting phrases to fit the ietf-languages situation? > > > > Or should we just leave things as they are? > >The current administrator of that list has, of course, just exercised >something comparable to RFC 3934, while acknowledging that it was a >personal list-owner's right and not provided in RFC 3934. The problem Harald faced was that I say that ietf-languages@alvestrand.no is not the mailing list documented by RFC 3066, is not operated by IANA, does not benefit from the exposure of a IANA list, does not respect the RFC 3066 procedure, a place full of ad hominems (*) and foul language. At the occasion of a specific problem and of its implications, he saw that my support was gaining momentum. To stop me his only solution was to confirm my position; acknowledging that this list was a personal list, where the RFC 3934 procedure is not respected, and appeals ignored. I will not appeal to IESG/IAB but I will use this to document that: 1. the ietf-languages@iana.org isto be a IANA organized and chaired list to help the Examiner(s) chosen by IESG 2. the rules of the IANA/IETF/ICANN MoU apply to it - including appeal to the IESG and IAB 3. reach out of that list benefits from the adequate exposure on the IANA site. (*) ad hominems show that this list is not an IETF list: On 14:52 17/06/2005, Brian E Carpenter said: >>I thought that ad hominem attacks were considered unacceptable on this list? >On any IETF list, actually. It's best all round if people remain >professional and polite, however strong the disagreement. >It might not be a bad idea to include a short statement to the effect >that the list administrator has authority to maintain order, and lift an >appropriate passage, or maybe a reference to RFC 3934 together with a >clarification that it is expressly being applied to a non-WG list. Its administrator is the IANA. The IANA is to decide the rules. At 22:01 17/06/2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: >No problem if the list owner wants it, but it's tricky: Who >appoints the moderator, what if the list owner doesn't agree, >where's the appeal and recall procedure, can the tag reviewer >also be the moderator, etc. ad nauseam. ad nauseam seems to be a true characterisation. The capacity to remove the Chair must also be granted. 4.5. ... For protocols within the IETF scope (i.e., registries created by IETF action), appeals against such denials may be made to the IESG and subsequently to the IAB as provided in 4.2 above. I take this occasion to recall to the Chair of this WG the subsequent part of the agreement: 4.6. The IANA shall have non-voting liaison seats on appropriate IETF committees as determined by the IETF, and may participate in all IETF discussions concerning technical requirements for protocol parameter assignment through such liaisons. 4.7. The IANA shall review all documents in IETF Last Call to identify any issues of concern to the IANA, and shall raise these issues with the IESG. At the end of the day this means Doug Barton participating to the work of this WG. I suggested several time it was the role of the Chairs to discuss with him if we could not speed up the process in inviting him. , >Maybe it's simpler to solve these problems generally for all >review lists, add them to the general area and let the Chair >pro forma appoint the list owner as listmom. No. This situation is ruled by RFC 2860. >Randy's plan B "Or should we just leave things as they are?" is attractive. No. Because I am going to use my "banning from a IANA list exercised by a private person without the protection of RFC 3934 rules nor the appeal capacity of RFC 2860" to oppose the Draft 3066 bis. The propositions I made above are probably good enough. >There can be conflict only for old libraries using new applications. But >the old libraries do not support the new features. So if I want to use the >new features I need the new libaries. > >I have another way to address the need: to register in the applications >registry one tag per language and per comment: 7500 * comment nr. With ISO >639-6 20.000 * comment nr. This may quickly make billions of entries. All >this just to stay compatible with a non used experimental format? >F. Charles. You do not necessarily need to do that. I suggest you use the x-tags format x-6aaaabbb. - x-6 is a prefix for ISO 639-6 codes. - aaaa is an ISO 639-6 cod - bbb is a comment code. You can register nearly 40000 of them (that anyone car read in his own langage) - aaaa being a concept, you can use bbb as container of the associate values by a referent following an ISO 11179 logic: this way you can link many many things, while keeping your page crispy. This way you stay conform to the old experimental RFC 1776 they want to respect - even if this Draft passed you are all correct. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 14:41:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjiFp-00071T-El; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:41:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjiFo-00071O-Dp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:41:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02746 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Djid8-0004Lm-F8 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:05:24 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-136.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.136] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DjiFg-0006Dn-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:41:08 -0400 Message-ID: <004101c57435$c9b99a80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050615224316.DBCF2657.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><001601c57343$5de32ee0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <42B32C25.1466@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:44:02 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:01 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: administration of ietf-languages@iana.org list ... > Maybe it's simpler to solve these problems generally for all > review lists, add them to the general area and let the Chair > pro forma appoint the list owner as listmom. Randy's plan B > "Or should we just leave things as they are?" is attractive. ... My understanding of how things currently are, actions of the list administrator notwithstanding, is that suspension of a disruptive poster on such a list would require IESG action, per RFC 3683, the currently applicable BCP. The course of action provided by RFC 3683 (section 2) is *much* more drastic than that provided by RFC 3934, and much more unwieldy to invoke. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 15:39:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Djj9n-0005wJ-Ev; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:39:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Djj9m-0005wE-Fr for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:39:06 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.mail.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08227 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050618193834.CSTZ14360.mta13.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:38:34 -0400 Message-ID: <005c01c5743d$44f8a4a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:38:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Does anyone have any objection to this, or should we go ahead and close the ticket, and make the changes to the initial registry? So far I have the following proposed changes from the 2005-06-05 version, before I magically transform it into an I-D: 1. this issue 2. remove region subtags 200, 830, and 833 (previous closed issues) 3. reinstate the variant subtags 1901, 1996, nedis, and rozaj, and move the corresponding grandfathered tags back to redundant (per draft-registry-06) 4. add redundant tag es-419, pending its approval by IANA Did I miss anything? -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > In January 2005, the UN Statistics Division revised their list of > macrogeographical codes, deleting 062 ("South-central Asia") and > replacing it with 034 ("Southern Asia") and 143 ("Central Asia"). The > two new codes cover exactly the same countries as the old code; the > difference is that the former Soviet "Stans" -- KZ, KG, TJ, TM, and > UZ -- have been moved to the new "Central Asia" category. > > Modifying the initial LTRU registry before "Date B" to match the > current UN list would have no effect on existing language tags, since > numeric region subtags were not valid under RFC 3066. > > Shall the initial LTRU registry be modified to (a) add region subtags > 034 and 143 and (b) delete region subtag 062? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 16:37:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Djk40-0004b3-EW; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:37:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Djk3w-0004av-Mb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:37:11 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA11925 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjjyM-0001mf-R3 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:31:22 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.184 ([212.82.251.184]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:31:22 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.184 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:31:22 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:36:27 +0200 Organization: Lines: 6 Message-ID: <42B485CB.CF1@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <005c01c5743d$44f8a4a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.184 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Did I miss anything? Delete 003. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 17:51:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjlDc-0006IT-5t; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:51:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjlDZ-0006IL-Lo for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:51:10 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16657 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Djl7q-0007U5-Tz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:45:14 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.184 ([212.82.251.184]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:45:14 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.184 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:45:14 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:42:18 +0200 Organization: Lines: 72 Message-ID: <42B4953A.6A42@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618104438.04404960@pop.online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.184 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org r&d afrac wrote: [...] See for the timestamp lines of your original article. This dupe is 2312, so it arrived before 2313. The "megatron" server is an odd beast at weekends, not the first time that I saw it. > there must be the debate on the WG-ltru Charter The charter is TTBOMK debated before the creation of a WG, then there's a "BoF" or a similar ritual (maybe they also "hum" or drum or whistle or sing), and an IETF WG pops up, complete with charter and chair(s). From there it's love it or leave it, excl. "re-charter" or "disband" for the moment. Better check the details, but I'm almost sure that you confuse something important here. > I recall that I committed to produce my own Draft within > 2 weeks after the end of that debate. IIRC you said something about April. If you've submitted your draft I missed it, in that case please post a pointer. > I removed myself from the WG-ltru That does not exactly match my recollection, you used to call it "enjoying my vacation". > start a private WG on the issue and to inform the IESG of > the reasons why. I would prefer not. IMHO that's strictly your business. You're of course free to invite the IESG to any private WG. OTOH they are forced to watch many official WGs, so I don't see your point here. >> Maybe it's simpler to solve these problems generally for all >> review lists, add them to the general area and let the Chair >> pro forma appoint the list owner as listmom. > No. This situation is ruled by RFC 2860. Okay, that makes sense. So your proposal is to keep RfC 2860 as normative reference, let Addison hit me because I proposed to remove it, and be done with it ? > I am going to use my "banning from a IANA list exercised by > a private person without the protection of RFC 3934 rules nor > the appeal capacity of RFC 2860" to oppose the Draft 3066 bis That "private person", as you put it, is among other things the list owner, the author of RfC 1766, the author of 3066, and the former Chair until a few weeks ago. And he used the RfC 3934 rules in this case exactly for the reason you quoted: > On 14:52 17/06/2005, Brian E Carpenter said: >>> I thought that ad hominem attacks were considered >>> unacceptable on this list? >> On any IETF list, actually. It's best all round if people >> remain professional and polite, however strong the >> disagreement. You could test the RfC 3934 and 2860 procedure for this case. > conform to the old experimental RFC 1776 Typo, s/1776/1766/ 1766 was a normal standards track RfC, obsoleted by RfC 3066 (BCP 47) later, check out Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 17:57:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjlJn-0007K8-Ia; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:57:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjlJl-0007K0-GZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:57:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17115 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:57:30 -0400 (EDT) From: info@dot-root.com Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Djlh8-0002pw-LH for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:21:43 -0400 Received: from dot-root by montage.altserver.com with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DjlJY-0001kx-Pc; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:57:20 -0700 Received: from 82.241.91.24 ([82.241.91.24]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user info@dot-root.com) by dot-root.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4400.82.241.91.24.1119131840.squirrel@dot-root.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:57:20 -0700 (PDT) To: ltru@ietf.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32747 1248] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Robert Kahn Subject: [Ltru] privateuse subtag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org http://www.dlib.org/dlib/june05/jantz/06jantz.html > On 06:05 16/06/2005, Peter Constable said: > We're talking about private-use within the terms of this tagging > specification. When you start talking about custom software, you're > talking about a private-use tagging specification. This why I want to adapt this tagging specification because its limitation does not make sense. You cannot have a Draft specifying languages for Internet and blocking applications it is supposed to support. Another way is to have "h-" for one of the type of applications I have? and "b-", and "c-" etc for others. I want to be able to support "h-xxxx.ccc.ddd" as both a tag and the CNRI handle of the document. Where "xxxx" is the ISO 639-3 or ISO 639-6 code of the language or their numeric equivalent. This permits me to build a multilingual virtual library where documents are listed per languages with the same document translation having the same handle in different languages. A unique multilingual world culture virtual repository. Is this what you want to block the possibility? This is just one of the applications. You should read http://www.dlib.org/dlib/june05/jantz/06jantz.html. The flaw in that excellent document is that document are not classified by languages. What Jefsey proposes cannot work for this: you cannot make "aaa" equivalent to all the handles. F. Charles _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 18:01:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjlO3-0007wc-AL; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:01:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjlO1-0007wR-II for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:01:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17498 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:01:54 -0400 (EDT) From: info@dot-root.com Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DjllP-00032v-NJ for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:26:07 -0400 Received: from dot-root by montage.altserver.com with local (Exim 4.44) id 1Djknb-0008Oc-Tm; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:24:19 -0700 Received: from 82.241.91.24 ([82.241.91.24]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user info@dot-root.com) by dot-root.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4094.82.241.91.24.1119129859.squirrel@dot-root.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Ltru] review of the day. To: "r&d afrac" , ltru@ietf.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32747 1248] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > At 11:03 18/06/2005, r&d afrac wrote: > > At 20:21 17/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: > > Oh Mighty Co-Chairs: dare I broach the subject of a Last Call and how we reach that? > > Before that there must be the debate on the WG-ltru Charter! May be should it start on list@rfc3066.org and continue here? The response I did not get show you need more than a mail to be heard. > You do not necessarily need to do that. I suggest you use the x-tags format x-6aaaabbb we are discussing at AFRAC. This is a possibility. But I prefer mine, because "comment" in "x-fr.comment-sn" is free. Will you support it on your own Draft? F. Charles _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 19:21:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Djmd1-0001ox-Co; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:21:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Djmcz-0001nZ-HF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:21:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23473 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Djn0O-0005jN-4l for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:45:40 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Djmcx-0000Yd-Ap; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:21:27 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050619000038.04c41550@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:04:40 +0200 To: Frank Ellermann , ltru@ietf.org From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. In-Reply-To: <42B4953A.6A42@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618104438.04404960@pop.online.fr> <42B4953A.6A42@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 Cc: langtags@afrac.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 23:42 18/06/2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: >r&d afrac wrote: [...] >See for >the timestamp lines of your original article. This dupe is >2312, so it arrived before 2313. The "megatron" server is >an odd beast at weekends, not the first time that I saw it. This is because I mailed it as Jefsey. And remailed it as rd@afrac. When I wanted to delete the first one Moderator had already approved it. Apologies. > > there must be the debate on the WG-ltru Charter > >The charter is TTBOMK debated before the creation of a WG, >then there's a "BoF" or a similar ritual (maybe they also >"hum" or drum or whistle or sing), and an IETF WG pops up, >complete with charter and chair(s). > > From there it's love it or leave it, excl. "re-charter" or >"disband" for the moment. Better check the details, but >I'm almost sure that you confuse something important here. You confuse two debates. The IESG debate I contributed to positively. The first thing a WG should do, in common opinion (see debate on ietf@ietf on the matter) is first to have a common understanding of the Charter. This WG has not done this yet and there is no consensus on the reading of the Charter. Randy promised this debate once the Draft would be completed. Disagreeing on the way to properly address the Charter, and having observed that the difference are fundamental, I have no real interest in this WG until it discusses what the Charter means. > > I recall that I committed to produce my own Draft within > > 2 weeks after the end of that debate. > >IIRC you said something about April. If you've submitted >your draft I missed it, in that case please post a pointer. I said "mid-April" because a WG usually starts in discussing what it is going to do. When I saw that this WG was not proceeding by the usual book, I said I would produce a Draft 15 days after the end of the debate over the Charter (if there still was a difference of vision between Addison/Mark and me). I see no reason why that debate would not lead to a consensus. Randy leads the show. We can only comment his ways from the quality of the final deliverable. Not yet. > > I removed myself from the WG-ltru > >That does not exactly match my recollection, you used to >call it "enjoying my vacation". Yes. These imposed vacations shown me there were low chances that the current trend would correct itself and that my pushing, outside of an open debate to understand what the Charter means, could not help. So I decided to wait that debate. > > start a private WG on the issue and to inform the IESG of > > the reasons why. I would prefer not. > >IMHO that's strictly your business. You're of course free >to invite the IESG to any private WG. OTOH they are forced >to watch many official WGs, so I don't see your point here. The point is that if there are two supported conflicting Drafts on the same matter, this will only delay both. I do not mind the delay since I am interested in an ISO 11179 consistent approach that ISO 639-6 will provide, and that ISO 639-4 will determine a few things about ISO 639-3 and -6. The proper sequence is to get ISO 639-3 as SIL's list accepted (in removing from the project the parts which belongs to ISO 639-4). So W3C and Unicode people can have their classification now. Then to have the Draft 3066 tuned to match this situation, in removing its desire to replace BCP 47. To have IS0 639-4 finalised and including the responses we need. To have ISO 639-6 finalised as ISO 11179 consistent (this what Debbie Garside, says). To check that consistency and to write a BCP 47 Internet framework fully compliant with all the ISO 639 parts, with all the issues concerning ISO 15924 and ISO 3166 being addressed (they are built in ISO 639-4). I think everyone here would agree that it is a correct scenario, consistent with the ISO plan (and therefore with my reading of the Charter?). Obviously we can go faster in simplifying RFC 3066, trusting the ISO process (with some warranties if they are too slow). This will address most of the concerns of IESG in the way IESG want: consistency with ISO. If the Draft, which rebuilds the world instead of patching an XML need,is advanced, I will probably do that. > >> Maybe it's simpler to solve these problems generally for all > >> review lists, add them to the general area and let the Chair > >> pro forma appoint the list owner as listmom. > > > No. This situation is ruled by RFC 2860. > >Okay, that makes sense. So your proposal is to keep RfC 2860 >as normative reference, let Addison hit me because I proposed >to remove it, and be done with it ? I am not sure what you mean by "let Addison hit me". I just submit that IANA mailing lists are managed by the IANA under RFC 2860 and that if there are lacks in RFC 2860 they have to be addressed in RFC 2860 bis. I have suggested some points to Brian Carpenter, based upon the experience of the application of RFC 3066 and others, he said he retained them (main ietf list). I suggest you ask him to add our concerns to his wish list. These points (RFC 3934 and removal of Chair and Examiners) seem important enough. I think that there should be a Committee, gathering people (4 or 5) from various origins (geogr. area, entities), selected by the NomCom for a period of one year. > > I am going to use my "banning from a IANA list exercised by > > a private person without the protection of RFC 3934 rules nor > > the appeal capacity of RFC 2860" to oppose the Draft 3066 bis > >That "private person", as you put it, is among other things the >list owner, the author of RfC 1766, the author of 3066, and the >former Chair until a few weeks ago. Good for him, but I do not see what has to do. Anyway IETF goes by the rule, not by the persons. The flaw is that he is the list owner. This only means a CIO when he was IESG Chair. I hope he did not initially accept the Draft as an AD? All I see is that he was embarrassed to the point of wanting to claim being the owner of a "IANA list". > And he used the RfC 3934 rules in this case exactly for the reason you > quoted. (a) he did not respect RFC 3934 and this is why he had to claim the list is private. I think I understand some of his reasons. (b) I am not sure which reason I quoted you refer to. In claiming the list private he only confirmed my reasons against the way the list is organised. > > On 14:52 17/06/2005, Brian E Carpenter said: > >>> I thought that ad hominem attacks were considered > >>> unacceptable on this list? > >> On any IETF list, actually. It's best all round if people > >> remain professional and polite, however strong the > >> disagreement. > >You could test the RfC 3934 and 2860 procedure for this case. I have nothing to "test". The fact that RFC 3934 and 2860 are not enforced show the list is private. Harald confirmed it. (a) RFC 3934 and 2860 do not apply (b) there is no RFC 3066 ietf-languages@iana.org list in operation as per RFC 3066. The Draft must make sure this situation is corrected. RFC 2860 bis is to set up rules to make sure this kind of private holding of a IANA list and related privileges cannot happen again. I have nothing more to add to this. jfc PS. you claimed you filtered a mail of mine. This is too bad: I suggested you to contact the people of the DIN over ISO 639, 3166, 15924 issues. I am sure they could provide you with information and be interested in your inputs and in your reading of Peter's text and Addison's and Mark's draft which are quoted in the ISO propositions. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 21:31:55 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjofC-00011O-Th; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:31:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjofB-00011J-NZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:31:53 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA01125 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050619013122.TXG24042.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:31:22 -0400 Message-ID: <000401c5746e$8f6df5e0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050618232328.KUAS7363.mta5.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:31:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Did I miss anything? > > Delete 003. Yes. Thank you. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 18 22:45:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjpoS-0001hh-3F; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:45:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DjpoQ-0001hR-JK for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:45:30 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA05612 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Djpif-0002M8-96 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:39:33 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.184 ([212.82.251.184]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:39:33 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.184 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:39:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 04:30:54 +0200 Organization: Lines: 173 Message-ID: <42B4D8DE.22A4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618104438.04404960@pop.online.fr> <42B4953A.6A42@xyzzy.claranet.de> <6.2.1.2.2.20050619000038.04c41550@mail.afrac.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.184 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org r&d afrac wrote: > This is because I mailed it as Jefsey. And remailed it as > rd@afrac. When I wanted to delete the first one Moderator > had already approved it. I'm not sure that it's "moderation" (Usenet-style), it could be one of these obscure "megatron" glitches. Or it's related to your "vacation". Randy's job is more like (Fidonet-style) "retro-moderation", send a private or public warning, and if that doesn't work block. I'm guessing here, but "moderating" individual articles would be a strange way to do it. Unless it's about false-positive-spam or accepting articles from unsubscribed sources. I watch this because I expected problems, that's why GMaNe has LTRU as a non-public list only for subscribed members. > Apologies. No problem, so far I avoided any "vacation", but I certainly caught some warnings over the years. It's difficult for all parties, and it gets fast out of hand if Murphy or "megatron" add their random contributions. > The first thing a WG should do, in common opinion (see > debate on ietf@ietf on the matter) is first to have a common > understanding of the Charter. This WG has not done this yet That's your position. You said it more than once, and now I looked at the charter again... ...and I still think we're on track. 3066 has several problems and we fixed them. We're supposed to add scripts, and we did. We're not forced to like the idea, and in fact I'm no big fan of it, but we carefully avoided havoc with the Suppress-Script concept, solved the problem of too many 693-3 extlangs, and got it in a shape where Bruce cannot fault us for ignoring MIME. And we checked especially the most perverse tag under the most perverse condition, RfC 2231/2047 for pc-multilingual-850+euro. It's my local charset, I was interested to get it right. Finally we also found a solution for the funny region codes, we go with the source standards a far as possible, or in other words until ISO 3166-1 reycles alpha-2 country codes. And for that case we have an emergency exit. It's _much_ better than the old draft-10. Minus one round of final nitpicking it's ready. Run it through the "idnits" tool, the W3C spell checker, Bill's XML validator (after adding the important ), maybe the ABNF checker again, and mark the third milestone as "done" on the WG charter page. > there is no consensus on the reading of the Charter. That's your position. For my reading of the charter see above. > Randy promised this debate once the Draft would be completed. Discussing the work plan after the work is done would be odd. > I have no real interest in this WG until it discusses what > the Charter means. Yes, as I said, love it or leave it. I was more interested to avoid the havoc of the old draft-10, and IMHO the result is now presentable. I'm even confident that I could answer each and every question about MIME-compatibility. I've forwarded one technical question to USEFOR, and they can certainly solve it: [private WG] >> I don't see your point here. > The point is that if there are two supported conflicting > Drafts on the same matter, this will only delay both. With the IESG you never know, some days ago somebody announced to publish technically incompatible drafts simultaneously. If it wouldn't be both unethical and unprofessional it would be ridiculous. But your idea to block a draft by publishing your own does not fly: First you'd have to submit it a.s.a.p., and then LTRU is a WG, so they'd tell you to discuss it here (if it's about the language tag registry). > I am interested in an ISO 11179 consistent approach that ISO > 639-6 will provide, and that ISO 639-4 will determine a few > things about ISO 639-3 and -6. ISO 639-6 and 639-4 don't exist yet, I'm not sure what 11179 is, we prepared anything as far as possible for ISO 639-3, and waiting for vaporware is not "engineering". > So W3C and Unicode people can have their classification now. The Unicode consortium is interested in funny 3066bis language tags ? Sometimes when you talk about UN, OECD, ITU-T, and what else I think you overestimate the relevance of the IETF and its language tags. It will be more than one decade until the last 3066-application dies, billions of documents will never use a language tag, other billions use 3066 tags, and it will take some time before 3066bis is more relevant than say DC. > removing its desire to replace BCP 47 That's something you should really discuss with Brian, I never got an answer when I asked here why 3066bis can't return to the normal standards track. [ But I forwarded an info from Carl Malamud to Addison how "intended status BCP" could be done with xml2rfc. ] This "BCP" and "experimental" stuff is apparently an easy way to bypass community review. But Brian proposed "two-step", so you might run into a wall there. > (this what Debbie Garside, says) I've never heard her say "wait for 639-6". IIRC Randy asked whether waiting for 639-3 could be a good idea, but a majority didn't want to wait. We have reserved 4ALPHA for ISO 639-6. > trusting the ISO process When I have my doubts about the IETF process it doesn't mean that I trust ISO more. Only the IETF can fix RfC 3066 / BCP 47 - it's their (= in theory "our") document. > which rebuilds the world instead of patching an XML need See ? There's no "rebuilding the world" here, we're talking about simple language tags and a somewhat inadequate RfC 3066. > I am not sure what you mean by "let Addison hit me". It was a joke, because I wanted to get rid of this obscure Mou with IANA in the normative references, 2860 is "informational". [Brian] > I suggest you ask him to add our concerns to his wish list. Thanks, but if I'd discuss anything with him it would be about publishing conflicting "experimental" drafts, and it would be because the 2026 "process failure" clause wants me to try this. > Anyway IETF goes by the rule, not by the persons. In theory. In practice the best you'll get is that they try it, and the worst is that they pretend it. Everywhere. > (b) I am not sure which reason I quoted you refer to. Brian's opinion about "ad hominem", you quoted it as (*) note. > PS. you claimed you filtered a mail of mine. -v please, I've no idea what you're talking about. > I suggested you to contact the people of the DIN over ISO > 639, 3166, 15924 issues. Yeah, I still have it, if that's what you mean (2005-03-21): <6.1.2.0.2.20050321001603.03f68c50@mail.jefsey.com> I only filter "courtesy copies", i.e. mails also sent to the list don't hit my folder "inbox" but "devnull". That doesn't stop me to read it there, but I read the list as a newsgroup on GMaNe, and that's also where I post replies. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 19 11:34:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dk1oY-00061u-2O; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:34:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dk1oX-00061p-B6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:34:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14017 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dk2C1-0007M4-8f for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:58:42 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:34:05 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] review of the day. Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:34:04 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55DDE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] review of the day. Thread-Index: AcV0UX4id5ghS4yTQoW4ZdFrwyEe8wAkp6SA From: "Addison Phillips" To: , "r&d afrac" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jun 2005 15:34:05.0673 (UTC) FILETIME=[53C54590:01C574E4] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I'm not feeding the trolls, no matter what they choose to call = themselves. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of info@dot-root.com > Sent: 2005?6?18? 14:24 > To: r&d afrac; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] review of the day. >=20 > > At 11:03 18/06/2005, r&d afrac wrote: > > > At 20:21 17/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: > > > Oh Mighty Co-Chairs: dare I broach the subject of a Last Call and = how > we reach that? > > > > Before that there must be the debate on the WG-ltru Charter! >=20 > May be should it start on list@rfc3066.org and continue here? The = response > I did not get show you need more than a mail to be heard. >=20 > > You do not necessarily need to do that. I suggest you use the x-tags > format x-6aaaabbb we are discussing at AFRAC. >=20 > This is a possibility. But I prefer mine, because "comment" in > "x-fr.comment-sn" is free. Will you support it on your own Draft? > F. Charles >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 03:00:03 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkGGI-0006S0-A5; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 03:00:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkGGF-0006Rd-4t for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 03:00:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA29768 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkGdu-0000ZF-2I for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 03:24:26 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DkGG8-00028G-GJ for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:59:53 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620085827.04f5e210@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:59:36 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 841b5d6ad57042632519d2198f34cc8d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [sent by mistake to Frank only] On 04:30 19/06/2005, Frank Ellermann said: >Unless it's about false-positive-spam or accepting articles >from unsubscribed sources. This is what happened, I think. > > The first thing a WG should do, in common opinion (see > > debate on ietf@ietf on the matter) is first to have a common > > understanding of the Charter. This WG has not done this yet > >That's your position. Randy said this debate will be after the Draft is finished. My experience of this WG is that there no way to change this schedule. So I just wait for it. >...and I still think we're on track. 3066 has several problems >and we fixed them. We're supposed to add scripts, and we did. You think we are on track. We think we are not. This is the reason of a debate. There is no consensus. >We're not forced to like the idea, and in fact I'm no big fan >of it, but we carefully avoided havoc with the Suppress-Script >concept, solved the problem of too many 693-3 extlangs, and got >it in a shape where Bruce cannot fault us for ignoring MIME. These are minor issues relating to the global vision of the problem at hand. >And we checked especially the most perverse tag under the most >perverse condition, RfC 2231/2047 for pc-multilingual-850+euro. >It's my local charset, I was interested to get it right. I have no idea of what you are talking since charsets are not supposed to be concerned :-) >Finally we also found a solution for the funny region codes, >we go with the source standards a far as possible, or in other >words until ISO 3166-1 reycles alpha-2 country codes. And for >that case we have an emergency exit. You found _a_ solution. Better was to conform to the standard we use (your position over ISO 3166 will make the tags unconsistent with ISO tags). This standard (ISO 639) is subject to ISO 11179 and ISO 639-4 rules. The same persons are active in both arenas (ISO and IETF). I do not think this WG should be a way to use IETF to influence ISO, no more than I think ISO committees should be a way to influence IETF. We have parallel and complementary technical work and we want to stabilise solutions for the best convenience of users and trade. Crosspolenisation is good, iterative pushing may help, but this must be in the open. Also commercial support has limits (RFC 3869) and politics makes poor technical reasons. >It's _much_ better than the old draft-10. Minus one round of >final nitpicking it's ready. Run it through the "idnits" tool, >the W3C spell checker, Bill's XML validator (after adding the >important ), maybe the ABNF checker again, >and mark the third milestone as "done" on the WG charter page. We are not talking of the same thing. You are talking of a function to be used by some applications to deliver a classification tag. I am talking of the Internet and of the Language Identification tag to be use in a broad range of issues including normative ones (read the RFC 3066, the Draft introduction and the Charter). This WG is like if we were only considering the scope of ISO 639-3 but wanting the Draft to influence ISO 639-6. All this boils down to market share and political influence: this is something for ISO, not for IETF. Once ISO has sorted this issue at general's satisfaction, IETF will be able to build on it. > > there is no consensus on the reading of the Charter. > >That's your position. For my reading of the charter see above. Yes. This is your own reading. This is not a general one among ISO Members. This will be discussed in Varsaw in August. Not our concern however, the IESG cannot be used as a way to influence that ISO debate. If IESG and IANA wzez officially warned by organisations and Govs, I do not think it would be good for the IETF and ICANN, while the world community is discussing ICANN's and IANA's role and its trust into the IETF. I think it is advisable to leave the things develop harmoniously, ISO sorting ISO matters and IETF sorting IETF matters. > > Randy promised this debate once the Draft would be completed. > >Discussing the work plan after the work is done would be odd. I am not to judge the plan of the Chairs. This is their show and responsibility. When you consider it, due to the history of the Draft, this might not be a bad idea. Actually I would support it, if the target is (a very advisable thing when you write a document) to write the introduction once the work is completed and cannot be changed, so we know what we talk about. The Draft is good for those wanting/needing to use it. The problem is that it wants to be normative instead of descriptive and to be forced upon everyone instead of being proposed. This can be easily addressed in correcting the first page. > > I have no real interest in this WG until it discusses what > > the Charter means. > >Yes, as I said, love it or leave it. No. This is the Internet: it belongs to you as much as to me :-) . And to 6 billions other people. The real problem is network stability. W3C and XML may seem to be big to you, today. You did not know them 10 years ago and you may not know them 10 years from now. Look at BTX and Minitel. Minitel grown up to 92% of the population using it in France. Everyone still have a Minitel and use it quite often (far better than the net for phone directory). But who would make standards depend on Minitel? In a way W3C is very similar to my approach a long ago (hypelinks, tags, metaformats/data, etc. but also more compact and page embedded search engines...) > I was more interested to >avoid the havoc of the old draft-10, and IMHO the result is now >presentable. I'm even confident that I could answer each and >every question about MIME-compatibility. I've forwarded one >technical question to USEFOR, and they can certainly solve it: > > [private WG] > >> I don't see your point here. > > The point is that if there are two supported conflicting > > Drafts on the same matter, this will only delay both. > >With the IESG you never know, some days ago somebody announced >to publish technically incompatible drafts simultaneously. If >it wouldn't be both unethical and unprofessional it would be >ridiculous. > >But your idea to block a draft Never intended to block anything! I want the Internet not to be blocked by the inappropriate usage of the Daft. I only want things to be carried in due time and good order, by who is their accepted responsible. >by publishing your own does not >fly: First you'd have to submit it a.s.a.p., and then LTRU is >a WG, so they'd tell you to discuss it here (if it's about the >language tag registry). This is why I wait for the debate over the Charter. It not only "about the language tag registry", it is about the Charter. If the debate over the charter does not occur I will be forced to do that. > > I am interested in an ISO 11179 consistent approach that ISO > > 639-6 will provide, and that ISO 639-4 will determine a few > > things about ISO 639-3 and -6. > >ISO 639-6 and 639-4 don't exist yet, I'm not sure what 11179 >is, we prepared anything as far as possible for ISO 639-3, and >waiting for vaporware is not "engineering". ? you may want to contact the DIN to get some information. ISO 639-3 would be the most "vaporeware" of all. All the more if ISO Committees realise that this WG is used to force ISO 639-3. I suggest you really look into ISO 11179. Not to read it: it would take years to fully understand it and to correct it (500 pages, not finished). But to understand what it is about, how the solutions this WG may chose may conflict and where and why. To make you and interested people understand the thing is "simple" enough: - there is ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2. They result from mainly US Librarian efforts. - there is an ISO plan which includes ISO 639-3 -4 -5 and -6. The key document (it should be understood as 639-0) is ISO 639-4 which is to give the guide linbes for the whole series. In a way ISO 639-3 cannot be published before ISO 639-4. - ISO 639-3 effort is conducted by Peter Constable. It uses the SIL database to list 7500 language names. SIL is a real life publisher (they translated and published the Bible in many languages). There are common needs between publishers and printers/typographers. Peter pushed for cooperation with Unicode. They identified they needed the name of the script to sort books in a library. Unicode identified their need was the same when dealing with "locales" and W3C when dealing with XML pages, etc. However "locales" make them normative and a way to control something in every OS, etc. Hence the concerns about IP rights when you know who is Unicode. - ISO 639-6 is a cooperation of a correlation of interests with the target to be ISO 11179 conformant (i.e. compatible with any ISO based system - from Telecoms to consumer goods, etc.) . It is based upon David Dalby's Linguasphere work. The debate over the "gsw" illustrates amore general need than to sort books in a shelf, but also DVDs, music intruments, cars, etc. along with languages, terms, and many other language objects. This is of interest to W3C for VXML, but not really to Unicode. On "ietf-language@alvestrand.no" someone said that a usage was RFC 3066 bis conformant, but not XML appropriate. The main question now is an ISO 639 metamodel: this is where AFRAC is interested, not in the old ABNF of a tag which will be forgot in 10 years. But if the place of that tag is misuderstood it can create havoc and delay everything. - the next question is networking. I would say ISO is "flat" and the Internet is distributed. The IANA is not the best solution because IANA centralises things and risks. Governments, starting with the USG, European, China, India, etc. have expressed their concerns about centralised concepts. Afrac was created after concertation meetings over the vulnerability of France and of other European countries to the Internet. We only followed the US reference document (http://whitehouse.gov/pcipb). It partly addressed the list of concerns I gathered when I proposed an ICP-4 collective document (ICANN/BC) over network e-security after 9/11. This should be the real concern of this WG. What is at stake is that everyone is most probably OK for a green light to ISO 639-3. But with some provisions. One is that what belongs to ISO 639-4 in ISO 639-3 is removed (Peter pasted some paragraphs in both). Another one is that things stay consistent and defined by ISO 639-4. This means that ISO 639-3 and ISO 639-6 are treated equal, each in its area. Giving green light to ISO 639-3 would permit to address the needs Peter fights for years (but no one wants this way to give away the languages market to Microsoft). It would also permit to gain experience with a much larger list and non written languages. It would decrease the pressure from the text oriented people and permit a better work on ISO 639-6. This is to be discussed in Varsaw in August. The best would be that Peter "loses" ISO 639-4 (one year delay to work) but gets a lean ISO 639-3 everyone could use immediately in a descriptive manner. The Internet (and therefore this WG) shares the two needs: a descriptive tag and a linguistic metamodel: ISO 639-3 and ISO 639-6. The best way would be to: - decide to use the ISO tables, but with the possibility to extend them (this is the purpose of the RFC 3066 Registry) - to acknowledge the principles of ISO 639-4 within an ISO 11179 framework, but with the possibility to adapt to networking and multilingualism (not addressed by ISO 11179 yet). ISO/AFRAC priorities are: multilingual, multimodal, multimedia, multitechnology, multitude of users implications. These should be this WG concerns. - to share in the ISO metamodel evolution. - to apply that metamodel in identification (Draf), application (XML, CLDR) and protocols solutions > > So W3C and Unicode people can have their classification now. > >The Unicode consortium is interested in funny 3066bis language >tags ? Did you read the Charter? Please read about the CLDR is: http://www.unicode.org/cldr/ These funny tags are supposed to permit to classify languages related issues. The limited subtag number and capacity will make dominant solution/product associated to the langtags in people's mind. Both ways. These funny 3066 bis language tags are worth more gold than the funny domain names. Except that DNs gold comes from their number, while langtags' one come from their limited number. The same people fight over "mercedes.com" the same they do not know how to register "gsw" and rushed for Chinese languages. Adding my referent and context (style) subtags would make them unlimited. User flexibility for all is often an commercial "waste". >Sometimes when you talk about UN, OECD, ITU-T, and what >else I think you overestimate the relevance of the IETF and its >language tags. I underestimated the relevance of our RFC 920 consensus when listing the constraints of our naming system.... I learned that the hysteresis of the Internet brainware (common ways of use) is very long. > It will be more than one decade until the last >3066-application dies, billions of documents will never use a >language tag, other billions use 3066 tags, and it will take >some time before 3066bis is more relevant than say DC. No one really cares about RFC 3066 (bis) oddities. They care about the term "RFC 3066" in documents all over the place. Because it permits to rule many things one shot. Let be candid: most probably non one will really use RFC 3066 bis tags, because they will soon be overcome by ISO 639-6/ISO 11179 compliant RFC 3066 ter tags. These will be supported by CRC access grids. We work on that. But if this Draft is presented as BCP 47 iy will create confusion and delays. Otherwise it could speed up the process. > > removing its desire to replace BCP 47 > >That's something you should really discuss with Brian, I never >got an answer when I asked here why 3066bis can't return to >the normal standards track. [ But I forwarded an info from >Carl Malamud to Addison how "intended status BCP" could be >done with xml2rfc. ] > >This "BCP" and "experimental" stuff is apparently an easy way >to bypass community review. But Brian proposed "two-step", so >you might run into a wall there. This was the community response to the Last Calls. "do what you want except becoming BCP 47". This is where the two documents idea come from: (1) a lean, simpler, clearer, scalable revision of RFC 3066 as an information framework (2) the Draft as a standard track RFC within the framework of that new BCP 47. This is not what the authors wanted. Should John Klensin's propositions have not been called "odious" by the authors, the Draft would have been published a long ago - as a standard track RFC. > > (this what Debbie Garside, says) > >I've never heard her say "wait for 639-6". IIRC Randy asked >whether waiting for 639-3 could be a good idea, but a majority >didn't want to wait. We have reserved 4ALPHA for ISO 639-6. see above. > > trusting the ISO process > >When I have my doubts about the IETF process it doesn't mean >that I trust ISO more. Only the IETF can fix RfC 3066 / BCP 47 >- it's their (= in theory "our") document. see above. > > which rebuilds the world instead of patching an XML need > >See ? There's no "rebuilding the world" here, we're talking >about simple language tags and a somewhat inadequate RfC 3066. True. But the claim to be BCP 47 makes it rebuilding the world. Just removing a sentence ("replacing RFC 3066") changes everything and gets the Draft a universal support (including mine). I first explained than around December 28, 2004 I suppose. And repeated ever since. > > Anyway IETF goes by the rule, not by the persons. > >In theory. In practice the best you'll get is that they try >it, and the worst is that they pretend it. Everywhere. The only IETF legitimacy is there. If we do not go by the rules, everyone and every language equal, we lose all our interest. This is why the attitude of Michael Everson over the 15 days delays would dramatically hurt the image of the whole process should his list not be private. If the deliverable of this WG is not perceived as a consensus, no one will take it seriously except among "developers", increasing the misunderstanding between them and "users". This means delays and costs, and at the end a commercial waste: users will be the winners, all the more than now they can develop and standardise by themsleves and that 70% of the people and Govs money is here to help. Cheers. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 10:30:00 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkNHk-0007oN-Ew; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:30:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkNHi-0007oE-T5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:29:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA04637 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkNfQ-0002ua-2U for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:54:30 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:29:39 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:29:39 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:29:47 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. Thread-Index: AcV1ZekIOxmVw+FrSTG9G0VfT1+LAwANcpxA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2005 14:29:39.0582 (UTC) FILETIME=[7DD059E0:01C575A4] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of r&d afrac It is not clear to me what profit is supposed to be derived from this thread. I will limit my comments to correcting some misconceptions and misrepresentations. > >...and I still think we're on track. 3066 has several problems > >and we fixed them. We're supposed to add scripts, and we did. >=20 > You think we are on track. We think we are not. This is the reason of a > debate. There is no consensus. A consensus does not require unanimity; it only requires an attempt at unanimity that results in at least a solid majority, which we have. > > > there is no consensus on the reading of the Charter. > > > >That's your position. For my reading of the charter see above. >=20 > Yes. This is your own reading. This is not a general one among ISO Members. > This will be discussed in Varsaw in August. The LTRU-WG charter is not a direct concern of ISO and is not likely to be discussed at the TC37 meeting in Warsaw. > ? you may want to contact the DIN to get some information. ISO 639-3 would > be the most "vaporeware" of all. All the more if ISO Committees realise > that this WG is used to force ISO 639-3. An ISO enquiry draft is hardly vapourware. The work of this WG has had little or no direct impact on the development of ISO 639-3. > To make you and interested people understand the thing is "simple" enough: >=20 > - there is ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2. They result from mainly US Librarian > efforts. ISO 639-1 was developed initially by terminologists, not librarians. ISO 639-2 was developed jointly by TC 37 and TC 46, the former consisting mainly of terminologists and lexicographers, though the initial code table was derived largely from the MARC language code list. > - there is an ISO plan which includes ISO 639-3 -4 -5 and -6. The key > document (it should be understood as 639-0) is ISO 639-4 which is to give > the guide linbes for the whole series. In a way ISO 639-3 cannot be > published before ISO 639-4. The project schedule for ISO 639-3 is not constrained by the project schedule for ISO 639-4. =20 > - ISO 639-3 effort is conducted by Peter Constable. It uses the SIL > database to list 7500 language names. SIL is a real life publisher (they > translated and published the Bible in many languages). There are common > needs between publishers and printers/typographers. Peter pushed for > cooperation with Unicode. They identified they needed the name of the > script to sort books in a library. Unicode identified their need was the > same when dealing with "locales" and W3C when dealing with XML pages, etc. > However "locales" make them normative and a way to control something in > every OS, etc. Hence the concerns about IP rights when you know who is > Unicode. ISO 639-3 is a project of TC 37/SC 2/WG 1; I am the editor. For the draft code table, it has combined the inventories of ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2, the SIL Ethnologue and the Linguist List.=20 SIL is a publisher, though that is hardly a central aspect of their work. Neither SIL nor the Unicode Consortium has ever indicated that they need the names of scripts (or languages) to sort books in a library. (Most of the statements in the quoted paragraph are partial truth, but that statement is 100% fiction.) Locales are a possible application for ISO 639-3 (or ISO 15924 -- it's not clear what Mr. Morphin's simple-enough-to-understand statement is saying at this point), but they certainly are not the only application for which that standard has been developed, or even the primary one. It is completely unclear why IP rights have been mentioned, but it is certain there is no particular concern in relation to ISO 639-3 (or ISO 15924). > The debate over the "gsw" illustrates amore general > need > than to sort books in a shelf, but also DVDs, music intruments, cars, etc. > along with languages, terms, and many other language objects. This is of > interest to W3C for VXML, but not really to Unicode. *Debate* over "gsw"? I would hardly characterize the discussion as debate. There was no particular points of disagreement.=20 > What is at stake is that everyone is most probably OK for a green light to > ISO 639-3. But with some provisions. One is that what belongs to ISO 639-4 > in ISO 639-3 is removed (Peter pasted some paragraphs in both). Another one is that things stay consistent and defined by ISO 639-4.=20 Since I am not the editor for 639-4, it is impossible that I pasted anything into both. None of the paragraphs in the working draft for 639-4 were inserted directly or indirectly by me.=20 The development of ISO 639-4 and of ISO standards in general is rather off topic for this list. > ISO/AFRAC priorities are... Since AFRAC is not an ISO member body, it is inappropriate IMO to refer to "ISO/AFRAC priorities", implying that there is some common agreement on priorities between these bodies. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 14:41:22 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkRCz-0007Bg-UV; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:41:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkRCy-0007Bb-Tj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:41:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27094 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkRak-0001Di-By for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:05:54 -0400 Received: from i01m-124-26.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.167.26] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DkRCr-0006py-AP; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:41:15 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620191934.0393a990@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:41:00 +0200 To: "Peter Constable" , From: r&d afrac Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d2b46e3b2dfbff2088e0b72a54104985 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dear Peter, not much time for a few remarks before the f2f meeting called by dot-root peoples after Addison's mail. We are not in much disagreement, but ... At 16:29 20/06/2005, Peter Constable wrote: >A consensus does not require unanimity; it only requires an attempt at >unanimity that results in at least a solid majority, which we have. I am afraid you confuse IETF and a consortium like Unicode or with ISO. 6 billions people to vote? IETF goes by rough consensus. We can have any solid majority any time. What the use if we are wrong? The code and market decide in here. >The LTRU-WG charter is not a direct concern of ISO and is not likely to >be discussed at the TC37 meeting in Warsaw. Glad to learn. Who are the Chaires of the Internet WG associated to ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2, as listed by TC 37? No similar relationship of ISO 639-3 to the business environment? >An ISO enquiry draft is hardly vapourware. We agree. ISO 639-3, -4, and -5 are equivalent ISO stage to me. Except that -3 and -5 should follow -4 guidelines. >The work of this WG has had little or no direct impact on the >development of ISO 639-3. Do you mind removing Addison & Davis successive drafts from the reference list in ISO drafts? >ISO 639-1 was developed initially by terminologists, not librarians. ISO >639-2 was developed jointly by TC 37 and TC 46, the former consisting >mainly of terminologists and lexicographers, though the initial code >table was derived largely from the MARC language code list. I simplified. ISO 639-1 is meant to stay an abstract of ISO 639-2 which is maintained by the Library of Congress. >The project schedule for ISO 639-3 is not constrained by the project >schedule for ISO 639-4. ISO 639-4 "implementation guidelines and general principle for languages coding" (something somewhat relevant to this WG?) is described by the ISO TC/37 Business Plan as follows: "As the overall ISO 639 expands, the need to specify common basis has become urgent. The rules governing the overall projects need to be laid down in a separate document". Concerns us if to dedicate the Internet to ISO 639-3, i.e. to ... you. >ISO 639-3 is a project of TC 37/SC 2/WG 1; I am the editor. For the >draft code table, it has combined the inventories of ISO 639-1, ISO >639-2, the SIL Ethnologue and the Linguist List. You may remember this was a summary. Exact TC 37 wording is "This standard will be part of the work program of SC2 based extensively on the SIL Ethnologue". Locales are a possible application for ISO 639-3 (or ISO 15924 -- it's >not clear what Mr. Morphin's simple-enough-to-understand Mr. Morfin simpler-to-spell :-) I cannot resist that one after Peter made the same (correct) remark about my poor spelling of a Lady's name. >statement is saying at this point), but they certainly are not the only >application for which that standard has been developed, or even the >primary one. Certainly. But this is the only new on in an IETF document, that the co-Author and project manager does not want to introduce. >It is completely unclear why IP rights have been mentioned, but it is >certain there is no particular concern in relation to ISO 639-3 (or ISO >15924). The concerns are important and have nothing to do with ISO 639-3 or 15924 but with the support by an IETF document of an external project with no clear IPR status which should be easy to clarify. And with the universal use by the Free community of a key reference file which could become proprietary or patented. >*Debate* over "gsw"? I would hardly characterize the discussion as >debate. There was no particular points of disagreement. Debate has several senses. The one I refer to is "Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate. " > > What is at stake is that everyone is most probably OK for a green > > light to ISO 639-3. But with some provisions. One is that what > > to ISO 639-4 in ISO 639-3 is removed. > >Since I am not the editor for 639-4, it is impossible that I pasted >anything into both. None of the paragraphs in the working draft for >639-4 were inserted directly or indirectly by me. Jesuitism. Anyway, what is important is that what belongs to -4 in -3 be removed, so -3 can be accepted. >The development of ISO 639-4 and of ISO standards in general is >rather off topic for this list. (a) I do not think so since we are to discuss the integration of ISO 639-3 or not in a IANA registry (b) that ISO 639-4 precisely discusses correlation between ISO-639 -1, -2, -3, -5, -6 with ISO 15924 and ISO 3166, of their maintenance, etc. even if we did not worked on the Charter, it seems that rings a bell. (c) that the output of this WG is used as part of the ISO debate. (d) that this WG takes positions which may conflict with ISO 639-4 (in particular over ISO 11179 extensibility/scalability, updates and UN M.49) This is why I submit that the report on the Varsaw meeting is important to this WG. Because it gathers people having a long command of the ISO standard we discuss or authority over them, of the language tagging in IT and network environment. Because it represents the market and the authorities we are supposed to address. Because they standardise for the applications going to be the back end of what this WG is to standardise. Because the IESG has not established a JAC with them and that the only relation we may have with them is to wait for their report. Because as you say "An ISO enquiry draft is hardly vapourware." and this WG Draft is still under discussion. > > ISO/AFRAC priorities are... > >Since AFRAC is not an ISO member body, it is inappropriate IMO to refer >to "ISO/AFRAC priorities", implying that there is some common agreement >on priorities between these bodies. Do you say that ISO priorities are not multilingual, multimodal, multimedia, multitechnology, multitude of users implications? I quote the AFRAC voted position: "The ultimate target is to facilitate the exchange goods and services through the elimination of technical barriers to trade and to foster the human cultural development through a multilingual, multimodal, multimedia, multitechnology, multi-user environment internet". I quoted it before in this WG. Anyway, dot-rooters are coming in .... they will probably tell they do not care about ISO and this WG because neither ISO nor WG-ltru want to address CRC needs. But that they can do with some ISO ....What I will have to agree ... Have a good day, let me have a tough evening :-) jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 16:29:40 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkStn-0006nV-Tm; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:29:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkStm-0006nQ-5W for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:29:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07896 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkTHX-0004hB-Ru for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:54:13 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:29:27 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:29:27 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: review of the day. Thread-Index: AcV1x6fj3PKncHeITSidYupeuG9EUQABptyQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2005 20:29:27.0579 (UTC) FILETIME=[C14346B0:01C575D6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: r&d afrac [mailto:rd@afrac.org] > >A consensus does not require unanimity; it only requires an attempt at > >unanimity that results in at least a solid majority, which we have... =20 > IETF goes by rough consensus. That is the point I wished to make. That is all that is relevant on this matter for purposes of this WG. > Who are the Chaires of the Internet WG associated to ISO > 639-1 and ISO 639-2, as listed by TC 37? > No similar relationship of ISO 639-3 to the business environment? I'm not sure precisely what you by "the Internet WG". There is no liaison relationship between IETF or any other Internet governing agency and either ISO/TC 37 or ISO/TC 37/SC 2. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 17:01:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkTOf-00031h-GF; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:01:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkTOa-00031K-Kp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:01:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09996 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:01:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkTmM-0005TW-82 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:26:03 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkTOT-0006qb-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:01:21 -0400 Message-ID: <00a501c575db$b6978c80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:04:55 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1036] ABNF errors in -02 matching draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02219.html > identified some potential problems in the -02 version of the > matching draft. > > Fixes were proposed later in that thread, agreement reached on > proposed replacement in message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02260.html > so ticked is marked "resolved" (In case you haven't already noticed, it takes me *much* longer to to record issues and resolutions when many topics are lumped together in a thread. If like things to move quickly: one thread, one topic.) If you think this issue merits further discussion, PLEASE use the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 17:16:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkTcl-0005K6-KW; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:16:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkTck-0005Jy-1e for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:16:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11057 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkU0W-0005qs-85 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:40:41 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkTch-0003nG-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:16:03 -0400 Message-ID: <013101c575dd$c43bc200$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:19:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1037] editorial comments on -02 matching draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02214.html > contains several editorial comments on the -02 version of > the matching draft. > > These were discussed and variously resolved in that thread. If you think these need additional discussion, or, when the -03 draft appears you find that they have not been satisfactorily addressed, please include the ticket number in your message's subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 17:33:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkTtD-00082l-Dz; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:33:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkTtB-00081v-Uz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:33:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12042 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkUGy-0006HC-PE for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:57:40 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkTt9-0001gx-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:33:03 -0400 Message-ID: <016601c575e0$25b0e040$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <200506150730.j5F7UwBr023900@smtp-los01.proxy.aol.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1033] Written Spoken Signed Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:36:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Based on the discussion, I've marked this item as "rejected"; there appears to be no consensus that a change is needed to address this issue. If you believe further discussion is needed, please include the ticket number in your message's subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 17:46:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkU6G-0001zG-VJ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:46:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkU6F-0001wk-1Z for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:46:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12974 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkUU0-0006dO-9h for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:11:08 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkU6A-0005YX-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:46:31 -0400 Message-ID: <018e01c575e2$06ad3340$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:50:07 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1038] remove region subtag 003 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02271.html > suggests removing region subtag 003. > This found support, and no opposition, on the WG mailing list, > so this item is marked "resolved". If additional discussion is needed, please remember to include the issue number in your posting's subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 17:55:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUEm-0003GG-NH; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:55:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUEk-0003Fy-Kx for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:55:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13348 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkUcX-0006oD-5p for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:19:58 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkUEi-0000YN-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:55:20 -0400 Message-ID: <01a301c575e3$42889340$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2160@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <42B015EA.111@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:58:47 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Proposal to add draft-lilly-content-script-01.txt? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 4:50 AM > Subject: [Ltru] informative SHOULD (was: Fw: Internet-Drafts SubmissionCutoff [....]) ... > Talking about sour grapes: Maybe we could get a resolution > supporting Bruce's Content-Script draft, push it ahead of > 3066bis through the IESG, and then add it to our "normative" > references and the "tag wisely" blurb. ... Although http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lilly-content-script-01.txt is interesting, and as much as I personally like some of the ideas, I would *not* like to see it made a work item of this working group. Doing so would, in my opinion, slow us down even more. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 18:03:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUMR-0004N9-5P; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:03:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUMQ-0004N4-JW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:03:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13906 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkUkC-000716-FG for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:27:53 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkUMG-0003I3-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:03:08 -0400 Message-ID: <01bc01c575e4$59a97c00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:06:45 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1039] administration og ietf-languages@iana.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02282.html > suggests providing a mechanism similar to that in RFC 3934 to > allow suspension of disruptive subscribers to the > ietf-languages@iana.org mailing list. > > There was no consensus in support of this item, so it is marked > "rejected" If you think additional discussion is needed, please include the issue number in your message's subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 18:17:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUZi-0006Xk-Or; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:17:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUZi-0006Xf-8V for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:17:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15915 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkUxU-0007RV-EL for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:41:37 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:16:46 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Proposal to add draft-lilly-content-script-01.txt? Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:16:46 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5636C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Proposal to add draft-lilly-content-script-01.txt? Thread-Index: AcV14tpYgOBZv2zJRkiVPipGaSLyLwAALXyA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2005 22:16:46.0631 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF3CA370:01C575E5] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Content-Script might be useful for certain things. But it has nothing to = do with language identification (in the same way that one sometimes uses = ISO 3166 country codes to identify regions: country codes can be part of = language tags but that doesn't make a language tag a region identifier = where one is called for). I vote reject, since it isn't an aspect of our current charter nor = particularly relevant at this time. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?20? 14:59 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Proposal to add draft-lilly-content-script-01.txt? >=20 > Hi - >=20 > > From: "Frank Ellermann" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 4:50 AM > > Subject: [Ltru] informative SHOULD (was: Fw: Internet-Drafts > SubmissionCutoff [....]) > ... > > Talking about sour grapes: Maybe we could get a resolution > > supporting Bruce's Content-Script draft, push it ahead of > > 3066bis through the IESG, and then add it to our "normative" > > references and the "tag wisely" blurb. > ... >=20 > Although = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lilly-content-script- > 01.txt > is interesting, and as much as I personally like some of the ideas, I > would > *not* like to see it made a work item of this working group. Doing so > would, > in my opinion, slow us down even more. >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 18:25:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUiK-0007s3-JB; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:25:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUiJ-0007rv-Am for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:25:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA16816 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkV65-0007hZ-NY for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:50:30 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkUiG-0002og-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:25:52 -0400 Message-ID: <020101c575e7$866b47c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:29:29 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1040] change permitted syntax of private-use subtag X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In the thread beginning with message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02291.html > various possible change to the syntax of private-use subtags > were discussed. There was no consensus to adopt these proposals, > so this item is marked "rejected" If still more discussion is needed, please use the issue number. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 18:36:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUsv-000110-W5; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:36:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkUsu-00010v-KD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:36:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17669 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkVGh-0007w6-VH for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:01:28 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkUss-00060S-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:36:50 -0400 Message-ID: <021401c575e9$0eb80d60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <005c01c5743d$44f8a4a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:40:27 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 12:38 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143,delete 062 > > Does anyone have any objection to this, or should we go ahead and close > the ticket, and make the changes to the initial registry? ... > > In January 2005, the UN Statistics Division revised their list of > > macrogeographical codes, deleting 062 ("South-central Asia") and > > replacing it with 034 ("Southern Asia") and 143 ("Central Asia"). The > > two new codes cover exactly the same countries as the old code; the > > difference is that the former Soviet "Stans" -- KZ, KG, TJ, TM, and > > UZ -- have been moved to the new "Central Asia" category. > > > > Modifying the initial LTRU registry before "Date B" to match the > > current UN list would have no effect on existing language tags, since > > numeric region subtags were not valid under RFC 3066. > > > > Shall the initial LTRU registry be modified to (a) add region subtags > > 034 and 143 and (b) delete region subtag 062? While the additions makes sense, the deletion worries me. If there is a language uniform across the entire 062 area, splitting it into 034 and 143 variants would require asserting that there is variation where there is none of interest. Of course, if we knew that 062 is not useful for any language, then the deletion would be harmless. Does someone on this list know enough about the languages of those regions to be able to support such a claim? Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 18:51:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkV7L-0003A7-L4; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:51:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkV7J-0003A2-NR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:51:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18904 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com ([209.55.107.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkVV6-0008JD-IW for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:16:21 -0400 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPOMPKE11S00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:51:28 -0700 (PDT) To: Addison Phillips Message-id: <01LPOU3EN9HY00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:50:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed Subject: RE: [Ltru] Proposal to add draft-lilly-content-script-01.txt? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:16:46 -0700" <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5636C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5636C@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > Content-Script might be useful for certain things. But it has nothing to do with language identification (in the same way that one sometimes uses ISO 3166 country codes to identify regions: country codes can be part of language tags but that doesn't make a language tag a region identifier where one is called for). > I vote reject, since it isn't an aspect of our current charter nor > particularly relevant at this time. I vote reject as well, for all the reasons previously given. Ned _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 19:25:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVdv-0007Cl-NB; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:25:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVdu-0007Cd-6J for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:25:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA20601 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkW1g-0000Yp-2Z for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:50:02 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkVdi-0000gd-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:25:14 -0400 Message-ID: <00c001c575ef$cf6407c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:28:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] [psg.com #1041] fate of variant examples in appendix B of registry draft X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02301.html > suggests getting rid of problematic examples of variants in > appendix B of the registry draft, replacing them with a list > of ones meeting reasonable criteria for variants to be registered > initialy. > > This proposal met with approval and no opposition on the > WG mailing list, so it is marked "resolved". If this needs further discussion, please don't forget to include the issue number in your subject line. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 19:35:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVnM-00008b-4y; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:35:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVnL-00008W-2u for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:35:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA21386 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkWB8-0000oP-EN for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:59:47 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkVnI-0003Dc-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:35:08 -0400 Message-ID: <00cf01c575f1$333979a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:38:44 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the group: Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale was sufficiently clear. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 19:41:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVtN-0000m7-7a; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:41:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVtL-0000lz-0j for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:41:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA21798 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkWH7-0000xd-3k for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:05:59 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkVtH-0004xB-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:41:19 -0400 Message-ID: <00d501c575f2$0f62dd40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BCA2910@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:44:54 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Can we live with the resolution of #1026? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - The discussion of issue #1026 (started with Jersey and Geurnsey, ended up principles for handling UN M.49 numeric codes) has quieted down, so I'd like to get a hum from the group: Can you live with how http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt addresses this issue? (see http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02287.html for the proposed change) Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 19:45:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVxA-0001SB-2d; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVx8-0001S6-0S for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22055 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkWKv-00012C-CA for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:09:54 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:45:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:45:00 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD563E2@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? Thread-Index: AcV18O3VZej5viFNQWCkPN8FPp30JQAAQYNg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2005 23:45:01.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[12F94A70:01C575F2] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org My contribution to the hum: I feel that this is resolved. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?20? 16:39 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? >=20 > Hi - >=20 > I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether > a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what > those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the = group: >=20 > Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? >=20 > As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included > whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale > was sufficiently clear. >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 19:45:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVxK-0001TW-Bd; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkVxJ-0001T8-54 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA22104 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkWL7-00012P-Jp for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:10:05 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:45:20 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with the resolution of #1026? Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:45:19 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD563E3@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Can we live with the resolution of #1026? Thread-Index: AcV18ZxOfZ066ZIjQaaFb0pEsqhArAAAHgjQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2005 23:45:20.0001 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E408F10:01C575F2] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org My contribution to this hum: I feel that this is resolved. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?20? 16:45 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Can we live with the resolution of #1026? >=20 > Hi - >=20 > The discussion of issue #1026 (started with Jersey and Geurnsey, ended = up > principles for > handling UN M.49 numeric codes) has quieted down, so I'd like to get a = hum > from the group: >=20 > Can you live with how = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru- > registry-05.txt > addresses this issue? >=20 > (see http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02287.html = for > the proposed change) >=20 > Randy, ltru co-chair >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 20:49:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkWxG-0002yr-1C; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:49:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkWxE-0002xa-Rh for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:49:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA27057 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:49:27 -0400 (EDT) From: info@dot-root.com Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkXL2-0002ds-TR for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:14:06 -0400 Received: from dot-root by montage.altserver.com with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DkWx1-0006Es-59; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:49:15 -0700 Received: from 82.241.91.24 ([82.241.91.24]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user info@dot-root.com) by www.dot-root.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2320.82.241.91.24.1119314955.squirrel@www.dot-root.com> In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD563E2@irvmbxw01.quest.com> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD563E2@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:49:15 -0700 (PDT) To: "Addison Phillips" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32747 1248] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] ABNF vs ANBF X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Before I leave I would like to positively return your welcome: you should correct the "ANBF" typo in 2.1.1. to "ABNF",... and most of the rest to white. I first tried to read your text .. I am not an intelligent person enough (cf. Part 8) to understand most (I ask who will be your reader) nor to understand Randy's tickets. All this is too obscure, even for a troll. F. Charles. PS. We had a good meeting tonoght over our testing. If some are seriously interested ... It will use JFC's x-tags, but unlimited size (actually less than 9 bytes but comment separator "." within a subtag). If the lib is not supporting it will respond error, so we know. Long subtags will tell the version of the library. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 21:17:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkXOC-0006tS-8a; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:17:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkXOB-0006tN-0Y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:17:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29462 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.145]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkXlz-0003Kk-0n for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:41:56 -0400 Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5L1H0eR023312 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:17:00 -0400 Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (d01av01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.215]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VERS6.7) with ESMTP id j5L1H0Ld260786 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:17:00 -0400 Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5L1H03W016750 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:17:00 -0400 Received: from markdavis (mark-davis.sanjose.ibm.com [9.43.213.118]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5L1GwWE016656; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:16:59 -0400 Message-ID: <02a301c575fe$eb9746f0$6501a8c0@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD563E2@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:16:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e5.ny.us.ibm.com id j5L1H0eR023312 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I think we are almost, but not quite there. This is not because of a substantive difference in the numbers, but because the wording is not correct. > Implementations MUST support a limit of at least 33 characters. This limit includes at least one subtag of each non-extension, non-private use type. When choosing a buffer limit, a length of at least 42 characters is strongly RECOMMENDED. [The wording here is odd. It feels like we are saying that Implementation= s must support a limit, and that limit must be 33 characters. It is also, o= f course, the case that I can do *whatever I want* to a language tag as a p= art of processing. Suppose, for example, I am processing some text tagged wit= h en-US-foobar. In the course of processing, I remove anything that is foobar-specific, so I change the tag to en-US. We can't phrase it in such= a way as to say that that perfectly reasonable option is non-conformant. Al= so, we really don't want people to just blindly pick 42, and thus screw up extensions, unless they need to truncate. And it doesn't distinguish the cases where I have really no control over a protocol that I must use to exchange a language tag. Thus I have a suggested revision:] =3D> Language tags SHOULD NOT be truncated unless the meaning of the tag = is purposefully being changed, or unless the tag does not fit into a limited buffer size specified by a protocol for storage or transmission. Protocol= s that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for langua= ge tags of up to 33 characters, and SHOULD allow for language tags of at lea= st 42 characters. As truncation can change the semantic meaning of the tag, = it is RECOMMENDED that the user be warned of any truncation. > In these cases, implementations SHOULD use the longest possible language tag. Warning the user of truncation, if necessary, is RECOMMENDED, as truncation can change the semantic meaning of the tag. [This text from further down is now not necessary. It was unnecessarily limiting anyway; it is not only those circumstances where language tags should not be shortened.] > In practice, most tags do not require additional subtags or substantially more characters. [This is from a bit higher up. Remove, since it is not necessary in conte= xt. Also not really complete "more than what", "to do what"? The second sente= nce of that paragraph is a better lead-in. If there were no further changes necessary, we could live with this, but because some are, we should do this.] =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 16:45 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? My contribution to the hum: I feel that this is resolved. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?20? 16:39 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > > Hi - > > I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether > a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what > those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the group: > > Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? > > As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included > whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale > was sufficiently clear. > > Randy, ltru co-chair > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 21:36:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkXgk-0000s1-2x; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:36:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkXgi-0000r6-Ey for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:36:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA01539 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkY4W-0003tm-UW for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:01:05 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5L1ZpI25705; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:35:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 541aac2c_e1f6_11d9_892f_0030482532aa_31023; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:46:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO004C02; 21 Jun 05 10:40:23 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 21 Jun 05 10:39:52 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.64) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG004BFF; 21 Jun 05 10:39:49 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050621093537.026b2cf0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:20:44 +0900 To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) In-Reply-To: <00cf01c575f1$333979a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> References: <00cf01c575f1$333979a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dbb8771284c7a36189745aa720dc20ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: >Hi - > >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether >a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the group: > >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? > >As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale >was sufficiently clear. Overall, I'm quite satisfied. But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). -05.txt says: Some applications and protocols are forced to allocate fixed buffer sizes or otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a particular application. It might be a good idea to reword this slightly to mention backwards compatibility and/or to stress the fact that these would mainly be existing protocols. -05.txt says: and such documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags (for example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is truncated). I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a 'whether' sentence. Maybe: and such documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is truncated). -05.txt says: If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the "-" character). please at least reword to: If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag ending with the "-" character). Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, formed) here. Wouldn't the later just be enough? Somewhat more serious, it looks like the current draft talks a lot about subtags, but never exactly says what they are. A reader has to look at section 2.2, to somehow get the concept of subtag by enumeration, before being able to reasonably well understand the start of 2.1. So please, somewhere very early in 2.1, say that subtags are separated by "-". An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks about language identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single time in that section. Please add something at the end of section 1 saying that this document defines a language tag that is designed to serve as a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem 'identif...' just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, as done in the title. Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there are subsections, good style requires that almost everything (except a relatively short intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at least two of them. The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and the length stuff 2.1.2. Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. -05.txt says: Some specifications are space constrained but do not have a fixed length limitation. For example, see [RFC 2231] [23]. This protocol has no explicit length limitation: the length of the language tag in this document is limited by the length of other header components (such as the charset's name) coupled with the 76 character limit in [RFC 2047] [10]. The referrent of 'This' is unclear. There is no protocol mentioned before, just an RFC. The reader shouldn't have to go to the bibliography to figure out that this might be a protocol. The referent of 'this' is confusing, too. Is 'this document' our draft? or RFC 2231? or a mail document being sent around? Probably best remove "in this document". References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. Please make this either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or something like RFC 2331 [23]. -05.txt says: (each subsequent subtag includes '-') This is very dangerous. Please change to something like 'the length of this and all subsequent subtags includes the preceeding "-"', to avoid the impression that the "-" is in any way part of the subtag. Also, 'showing how the 42 character recommendation was derived' and then populating that with "unlikely" is confusing. It would be easier to understand if these two things were separated, i.e. first giving just the simple example, and then afterwards saying something like "Having more than one extlang or variant is considered to be highly unlikely, but this was included in the 42 limit to make sure that even highly unlikely tags can be processed by applications respecting this limit." Also, I'd change "derivation" to something else. "derivation" sounds too much like a logical, undavoidable process. The text about truncation is in two different places: First where it says: If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the "-" character). and later where it says: Applications or protocols which have to truncate a tag MUST do so by progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single-character subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. The first MUST in the second paragraph seems to be very similar to the MUST NOT above. The second MUST in the second paragraph comes as a (somewhat unexpected) additional restriction. Please put everything about truncation together, maybe even in its own subsection. I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile makes a good example. Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect zh-Latn rather than zh-Hant. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 22:02:44 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkY68-0004wc-IO; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkY67-0004wX-OW for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:43 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA03934 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkY03-0004NW-Hz for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:56:27 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:56:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 03:56:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:01:25 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42B774F5.62BA@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00cf01c575f1$333979a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > So I'd like to get a "hum" from the group: Chapter 2.1 in -05 is fine, although I'd delete one statement: | At up to 11 characters, this combination is longer than the | longest possible language subtag (8 characters): No idea what it's supposed to mean, but it's not 3 + 3*4 = 15. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 23:47:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkZj5-0001vd-O4; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:47:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkZj3-0001sh-QZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:47:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11897 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dka6r-0007HX-Nq for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:11:38 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:46:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:46:44 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5643D@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Thread-Index: AcV2AcVB1adcsGQkS2eArx++V5kEmQAD8r3w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2005 03:46:44.0914 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7EEE120:01C57613] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36fb765c89ed47dab364ab702a78e8fd Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Some notes below. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Martin Duerst > Sent: 2005?6?20? 18:21 > To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) >=20 > At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: > >Hi - > > > >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether > >a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what > >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the = group: > > > >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt = ? > > > >As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included > >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale > >was sufficiently clear. >=20 > Overall, I'm quite satisfied. >=20 > But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: > (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless > somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). >=20 > -05.txt says: > Some applications and protocols are forced to allocate fixed = buffer > sizes or otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a = particular > application. > It might be a good idea to reword this slightly to mention backwards > compatibility and/or to stress the fact that these would mainly be > existing protocols. [Addison Phillips]=20 It isn't strictly existing protocols, since any protocol might have a = length limitation. I don't think the extra verbiage is necessary to = point out that these might be legacy protocols. >=20 > -05.txt says: > and such > documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags = (for > example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag = is > truncated). > I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a = 'whether' > sentence. Maybe: > and such > documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for > example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag = is > truncated). [Addison Phillips]=20 That's a no-op change, if there ever was one. It's good because it drops = the rather convoluted "disposition" in favor of the more Anglo-Saxon = phrasing you suggest. I'll make this change. >=20 > -05.txt says: > If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be = divided > or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the > "-" character). > please at least reword to: > If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be = divided > or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag ending with the > "-" character). > Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, formed) here. = Wouldn't > the later just be enough? [Addison Phillips]=20 Divided is, to be sure, a special case of invalid. But a divided subtag = might be valid per the ABNF--or even the registry. It makes sense to = call out the special case of not chopping mid-tag. >=20 > Somewhat more serious, it looks like the current draft talks a lot = about > subtags, but never exactly says what they are. A reader has to look at > section 2.2, to somehow get the concept of subtag by enumeration, = before > being able to reasonably well understand the start of 2.1. > So please, somewhere very early in 2.1, say that subtags are separated > by "-". [Addison Phillips]=20 Okay. >=20 > An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks about language > identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single time in that > section. Please add something at the end of section 1 saying that > this document defines a language tag that is designed to serve as > a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem 'identif...' > just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, as done in > the title. [Addison Phillips]=20 This text is more-or-less inherited. Must we remove all vestiges of = Harold's authorship? But I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out that = a tag is an identifier... :-) >=20 > Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there are = subsections, > good style requires that almost everything (except a relatively short > intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at least two of them. > The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and the length > stuff 2.1.2. [Addison Phillips]=20 No. Section 2 has plenty of structure. >=20 > Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. >=20 > -05.txt says: > Some specifications are space constrained but do not have a fixed > length limitation. For example, see [RFC 2231] [23]. This = protocol > has no explicit length limitation: the length of the language tag = in > this document is limited by the length of other header components > (such as the charset's name) coupled with the 76 character limit = in > [RFC 2047] [10]. > The referrent of 'This' is unclear. There is no protocol mentioned > before, just an RFC. The reader shouldn't have to go to the = bibliography > to figure out that this might be a protocol. The referent of 'this' > is confusing, too. Is 'this document' our draft? or RFC 2231? or > a mail document being sent around? Probably best remove "in this > document". [Addison Phillips]=20 Okay, I'll fix that. >=20 > References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. Please make = this > either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or = something > like RFC 2331 [23]. [Addison Phillips]=20 I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to xml2rfc. W3C = Specifications are much cleaner. >=20 > -05.txt says: > (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > This is very dangerous. Please change to something like 'the length of > this and all subsequent subtags includes the preceeding "-"', to avoid > the impression that the "-" is in any way part of the subtag. [Addison Phillips]=20 Agreed. >=20 > Also, 'showing how the 42 character recommendation was derived' and > then populating that with "unlikely" is confusing. It would be easier > to understand if these two things were separated, i.e. first giving > just the simple example, and then afterwards saying something like > "Having more than one extlang or variant is considered to be highly > unlikely, but this was included in the 42 limit to make sure that > even highly unlikely tags can be processed by applications respecting > this limit." [Addison Phillips]=20 Okay. >=20 > Also, I'd change "derivation" to something else. "derivation" sounds > too much like a logical, undavoidable process. [Addison Phillips]=20 "How we figured the length limit" sounds too conversational? Derivation = is a bit stodgy, but that's life. >=20 > The text about truncation is in two different places: > First where it says: > If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be = divided > or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the > "-" character). > and later where it says: > Applications or protocols which have to truncate a tag MUST do so = by > progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from > the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough = for > the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a = single-character > subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. > The first MUST in the second paragraph seems to be very similar to > the MUST NOT above. The second MUST in the second paragraph comes as > a (somewhat unexpected) additional restriction. > Please put everything about truncation together, maybe even in its own > subsection. [Addison Phillips]=20 Okay. >=20 > I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile makes a good = example. > Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect zh-Latn = rather > than > zh-Hant. [Addison Phillips]=20 This example was taken from a particular thread "early" on in this WG's = life. Since it is a private use tag, any sort of illogical garbage might = exist. That said, "zh-latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile" would = actually make some sense, wouldn't it? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 20 23:57:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkZt1-0003P5-NA; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:57:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkZsz-0003P0-Gb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:57:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12587 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkaGp-0007Y7-G8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:21:56 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:57:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:57:01 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5644A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Thread-Index: AcV2AcVB1adcsGQkS2eArx++V5kEmQAD8r3wAADm/PA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Martin Duerst" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2005 03:57:02.0467 (UTC) FILETIME=[4805FD30:01C57615] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 410b68b37343617c6913e76d02180b14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Changes in the editor's copy. http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt ~Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > Sent: 2005?6?20? 20:47 > To: Martin Duerst; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) >=20 > Some notes below. >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > > Behalf Of Martin Duerst > > Sent: 2005?6?20? 18:21 > > To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, = BUT) > > > > At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > >Hi - > > > > > >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether > > >a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what > > >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the = group: > > > > > >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in > > = >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? > > > > > >As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included > > >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > > >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying = rationale > > >was sufficiently clear. > > > > Overall, I'm quite satisfied. > > > > But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: > > (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless > > somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). > > > > -05.txt says: > > Some applications and protocols are forced to allocate fixed = buffer > > sizes or otherwise limit the length of a language tag in a > particular > > application. > > It might be a good idea to reword this slightly to mention backwards > > compatibility and/or to stress the fact that these would mainly be > > existing protocols. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > It isn't strictly existing protocols, since any protocol might have a > length limitation. I don't think the extra verbiage is necessary to = point > out that these might be legacy protocols. > > > > -05.txt says: > > and such > > documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags = (for > > example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag = is > > truncated). > > I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a = 'whether' > > sentence. Maybe: > > and such > > documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for > > example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag = is > > truncated). > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > That's a no-op change, if there ever was one. It's good because it = drops > the rather convoluted "disposition" in favor of the more Anglo-Saxon > phrasing you suggest. I'll make this change. > > > > -05.txt says: > > If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be = divided > > or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with = the > > "-" character). > > please at least reword to: > > If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be = divided > > or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag ending with = the > > "-" character). > > Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, formed) here. > Wouldn't > > the later just be enough? > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > Divided is, to be sure, a special case of invalid. But a divided = subtag > might be valid per the ABNF--or even the registry. It makes sense to = call > out the special case of not chopping mid-tag. > > > > Somewhat more serious, it looks like the current draft talks a lot = about > > subtags, but never exactly says what they are. A reader has to look = at > > section 2.2, to somehow get the concept of subtag by enumeration, = before > > being able to reasonably well understand the start of 2.1. > > So please, somewhere very early in 2.1, say that subtags are = separated > > by "-". > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > Okay. > > > > An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks about language > > identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single time in that > > section. Please add something at the end of section 1 saying that > > this document defines a language tag that is designed to serve as > > a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem 'identif...' > > just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, as done in > > the title. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > This text is more-or-less inherited. Must we remove all vestiges of > Harold's authorship? But I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out = that a > tag is an identifier... :-) > > > > Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there are = subsections, > > good style requires that almost everything (except a relatively = short > > intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at least two of = them. > > The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and the length > > stuff 2.1.2. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > No. Section 2 has plenty of structure. > > > > Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. > > > > -05.txt says: > > Some specifications are space constrained but do not have a = fixed > > length limitation. For example, see [RFC 2231] [23]. This = protocol > > has no explicit length limitation: the length of the language = tag in > > this document is limited by the length of other header = components > > (such as the charset's name) coupled with the 76 character limit = in > > [RFC 2047] [10]. > > The referrent of 'This' is unclear. There is no protocol mentioned > > before, just an RFC. The reader shouldn't have to go to the = bibliography > > to figure out that this might be a protocol. The referent of 'this' > > is confusing, too. Is 'this document' our draft? or RFC 2231? or > > a mail document being sent around? Probably best remove "in this > > document". > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > Okay, I'll fix that. > > > > References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. Please make = this > > either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or = something > > like RFC 2331 [23]. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to xml2rfc. W3C > Specifications are much cleaner. > > > > -05.txt says: > > (each subsequent subtag includes '-') > > This is very dangerous. Please change to something like 'the length = of > > this and all subsequent subtags includes the preceeding "-"', to = avoid > > the impression that the "-" is in any way part of the subtag. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > Agreed. > > > > Also, 'showing how the 42 character recommendation was derived' and > > then populating that with "unlikely" is confusing. It would be = easier > > to understand if these two things were separated, i.e. first giving > > just the simple example, and then afterwards saying something like > > "Having more than one extlang or variant is considered to be highly > > unlikely, but this was included in the 42 limit to make sure that > > even highly unlikely tags can be processed by applications = respecting > > this limit." > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > Okay. > > > > Also, I'd change "derivation" to something else. "derivation" sounds > > too much like a logical, undavoidable process. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > "How we figured the length limit" sounds too conversational? = Derivation is > a bit stodgy, but that's life. > > > > The text about truncation is in two different places: > > First where it says: > > If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be = divided > > or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with = the > > "-" character). > > and later where it says: > > Applications or protocols which have to truncate a tag MUST do = so by > > progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" = from > > the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough = for > > the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a = single-character > > subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. > > The first MUST in the second paragraph seems to be very similar to > > the MUST NOT above. The second MUST in the second paragraph comes as > > a (somewhat unexpected) additional restriction. > > Please put everything about truncation together, maybe even in its = own > > subsection. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > Okay. > > > > I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile makes a good > example. > > Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect zh-Latn = rather > > than > > zh-Hant. > [Addison Phillips] >=20 > This example was taken from a particular thread "early" on in this = WG's > life. Since it is a private use tag, any sort of illogical garbage = might > exist. That said, "zh-latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile" would > actually make some sense, wouldn't it? >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 00:17:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaCB-00071k-O9; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaC9-00071f-Ju for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:05 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13750 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050621041624.VNSY29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:16:24 -0400 Message-ID: <006a01c57617$f1ee9f80$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:16:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0067_01C575DD.44CDFE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU initial-registry draft-00 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C575DD.44CDFE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Editor, Attached please find the first draft of the LTRU initial-registry document, "draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00", in text format. Best regards, -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C575DD.44CDFE20 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LTRU D. Ewell, Ed. Internet-Draft June 20, 2005 Expires: December 22, 2005 Initial Language Subtag Registry draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 Status of this Memo By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on December 22, 2005. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). Abstract This memo defines the initial contents of the Language Subtag Registry specified in RFC 3066bis, "Tags for Identifying Languages." This memo does not define the permanent contents of the registry. Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 1] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. Initial Registry Contents . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 3. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108 4. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108 5. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108 5.1 Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108 5.2 Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108 Author's Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 109 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . 110 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 2] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 1. Introduction [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] provides for a Language Subtag Registry and describes its format. This memo defines the initial contents of the Language Subtag Registry, as described in Section 3.7 of that document ("Initialization of the Registry"). The Language Subtag Registry is formatted in a modified record-jar text format, as described in [record-jar]. The specific format of the registry, and the definition and intended purpose of each of the fields, are described in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry]. The registry is expected to change over time, as new subtags are registered and existing subtags are modified or deprecated. The process of updating the registry is described in Section 3 of [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry]. This memo does not define the permanent contents of the registry and should not be represented as doing so. Many of the subtags defined in this registry are based on code elements defined in [ISO-639-1], [ISO-639-2], [ISO-15924], [ISO-3166-1], and [UN-M.49]. This registry is not a mirror of the code lists defined by these standards, and should not be used as one. The process for determining the contents of this registry is defined in Section 3.7 of [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry]. 2. Initial Registry Contents The initial Language Subtag Registry follows. The registry begins with the line that starts with the string "File-Date" and continues to the end of this section. Headers, footers, line breaks, and other vertical whitespace introduced by the RFC process are not significant. Leading horizontal whitespace indicates a continued line in the record-jar format, and must not be deleted. File-Date: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: aa Description: Afar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ab Description: Abkhazian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 3] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: ae Description: Avestan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: af Description: Afrikaans Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ak Description: Akan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: am Description: Amharic Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Ethi %% Type: language Subtag: an Description: Aragonese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ar Description: Arabic Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Arab %% Type: language Subtag: as Description: Assamese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Beng %% Type: language Subtag: av Description: Avaric Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ay Description: Aymara Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 4] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: az Description: Azerbaijani Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ba Description: Bashkir Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: be Description: Belarusian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Type: language Subtag: bg Description: Bulgarian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Type: language Subtag: bh Description: Bihari Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bi Description: Bislama Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bm Description: Bambara Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bn Description: Bengali Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Beng %% Type: language Subtag: bo Description: Tibetan Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 5] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: br Description: Breton Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bs Description: Bosnian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ca Description: Catalan Description: Valencian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ce Description: Chechen Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ch Description: Chamorro Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: co Description: Corsican Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cr Description: Cree Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cs Description: Czech Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: cu Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 6] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Church Slavic Description: Old Slavonic Description: Church Slavonic Description: Old Bulgarian Description: Old Church Slavonic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cv Description: Chuvash Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cy Description: Welsh Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: da Description: Danish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: de Description: German Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: dv Description: Divehi Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Thaa %% Type: language Subtag: dz Description: Dzongkha Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Tibt %% Type: language Subtag: ee Description: Ewe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 7] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: el Description: Greek, Modern (1453-) Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Grek %% Type: language Subtag: en Description: English Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: eo Description: Esperanto Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: es Description: Spanish Description: Castilian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: et Description: Estonian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: eu Description: Basque Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: fa Description: Persian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Arab %% Type: language Subtag: ff Description: Fulah Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 8] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: fi Description: Finnish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: fj Description: Fijian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: fo Description: Faroese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: fr Description: French Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: fy Description: Frisian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ga Description: Irish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: gd Description: Gaelic Description: Scottish Gaelic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gl Description: Gallegan Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: gn Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 9] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Guarani Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: gu Description: Gujarati Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Gujr %% Type: language Subtag: gv Description: Manx Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ha Description: Hausa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: he Description: Hebrew Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Hebr %% Type: language Subtag: hi Description: Hindi Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Deva %% Type: language Subtag: ho Description: Hiri Motu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hr Description: Croatian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ht Description: Haitian Description: Haitian Creole Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 10] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: hu Description: Hungarian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: hy Description: Armenian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Armn %% Type: language Subtag: hz Description: Herero Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ia Description: Interlingua (International Auxiliary Language Association) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: id Description: Indonesian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ie Description: Interlingue Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ig Description: Igbo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ii Description: Sichuan Yi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 11] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: ik Description: Inupiaq Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: in Description: Indonesian Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: id Deprecated: 1989-01-01 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: io Description: Ido Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: is Description: Icelandic Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: it Description: Italian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: iu Description: Inuktitut Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: iw Description: Hebrew Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: he Deprecated: 1989-01-01 Suppress-Script: Hebr %% Type: language Subtag: ja Description: Japanese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 12] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: ji Description: Yiddish Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: yi Deprecated: 1989-01-01 %% Type: language Subtag: jv Description: Javanese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: jw Description: Javanese Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: jv Deprecated: 2001-08-13 Comments: published by error in Table 1 of ISO 639:1988 %% Type: language Subtag: ka Description: Georgian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Geor %% Type: language Subtag: kg Description: Kongo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ki Description: Kikuyu Description: Gikuyu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kj Description: Kuanyama Description: Kwanyama Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kk Description: Kazakh Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 13] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: kl Description: Kalaallisut Description: Greenlandic Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: km Description: Khmer Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Khmr %% Type: language Subtag: kn Description: Kannada Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Knda %% Type: language Subtag: ko Description: Korean Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kr Description: Kanuri Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ks Description: Kashmiri Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ku Description: Kurdish Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kv Description: Komi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kw Description: Cornish Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 14] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: ky Description: Kirghiz Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: la Description: Latin Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: lb Description: Luxembourgish Description: Letzeburgesch Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: lg Description: Ganda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: li Description: Limburgan Description: Limburger Description: Limburgish Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ln Description: Lingala Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: lo Description: Lao Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Laoo %% Type: language Subtag: lt Description: Lithuanian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 15] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: lu Description: Luba-Katanga Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lv Description: Latvian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: mg Description: Malagasy Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: mh Description: Marshallese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: mi Description: Maori Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mk Description: Macedonian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Type: language Subtag: ml Description: Malayalam Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Mlym %% Type: language Subtag: mn Description: Mongolian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mo Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 16] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Moldavian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: mr Description: Marathi Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Deva %% Type: language Subtag: ms Description: Malay Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: mt Description: Maltese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: my Description: Burmese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Mymr %% Type: language Subtag: na Description: Nauru Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nb Description: Norwegian Bokmål Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nd Description: Ndebele, North Description: North Ndebele Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 17] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: ne Description: Nepali Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Deva %% Type: language Subtag: ng Description: Ndonga Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nl Description: Dutch Description: Flemish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nn Description: Norwegian Nynorsk Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: no Description: Norwegian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nr Description: Ndebele, South Description: South Ndebele Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nv Description: Navajo Description: Navaho Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ny Description: Chichewa Description: Chewa Description: Nyanja Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 18] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: oc Description: Occitan (post 1500) Description: Provençal Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: oj Description: Ojibwa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: om Description: Oromo Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: or Description: Oriya Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Orya %% Type: language Subtag: os Description: Ossetian Description: Ossetic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pa Description: Panjabi Description: Punjabi Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Guru %% Type: language Subtag: pi Description: Pali Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pl Description: Polish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 19] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: ps Description: Pushto Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Arab %% Type: language Subtag: pt Description: Portuguese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: qu Description: Quechua Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: rm Description: Raeto-Romance Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: rn Description: Rundi Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ro Description: Romanian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ru Description: Russian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Type: language Subtag: rw Description: Kinyarwanda Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 20] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: sa Description: Sanskrit Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sc Description: Sardinian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sd Description: Sindhi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: se Description: Northern Sami Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sg Description: Sango Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sh Description: Serbo-Croatian Added: 2005-06-20 Deprecated: 2000-02-18 %% Type: language Subtag: si Description: Sinhala Description: Sinhalese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Sinh %% Type: language Subtag: sk Description: Slovak Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sl Description: Slovenian Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 21] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sm Description: Samoan Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sn Description: Shona Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: so Description: Somali Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sq Description: Albanian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sr Description: Serbian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ss Description: Swati Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: st Description: Sotho, Southern Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: su Description: Sundanese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 22] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: sv Description: Swedish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: sw Description: Swahili Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ta Description: Tamil Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Taml %% Type: language Subtag: te Description: Telugu Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Telu %% Type: language Subtag: tg Description: Tajik Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: th Description: Thai Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Thai %% Type: language Subtag: ti Description: Tigrinya Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Ethi %% Type: language Subtag: tk Description: Turkmen Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tl Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 23] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Tagalog Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tn Description: Tswana Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: to Description: Tonga (Tonga Islands) Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tr Description: Turkish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ts Description: Tsonga Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tt Description: Tatar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tw Description: Twi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ty Description: Tahitian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ug Description: Uighur Description: Uyghur Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 24] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: uk Description: Ukrainian Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Cyrl %% Type: language Subtag: ur Description: Urdu Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Arab %% Type: language Subtag: uz Description: Uzbek Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ve Description: Venda Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: vi Description: Vietnamese Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: vo Description: Volapük Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: wa Description: Walloon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: wo Description: Wolof Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: xh Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 25] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Xhosa Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: yi Description: Yiddish Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Hebr %% Type: language Subtag: yo Description: Yoruba Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: za Description: Zhuang Description: Chuang Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: zh Description: Chinese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: zu Description: Zulu Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ace Description: Achinese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ach Description: Acoli Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ada Description: Adangme Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 26] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: ady Description: Adyghe Description: Adygei Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: afa Description: Afro-Asiatic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: afh Description: Afrihili Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: akk Description: Akkadian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ale Description: Aleut Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: alg Description: Algonquian languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: alt Description: Southern Altai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ang Description: English, Old (ca. 450-1100) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: apa Description: Apache languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: arc Description: Aramaic Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 27] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: arn Description: Araucanian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: arp Description: Arapaho Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: art Description: Artificial (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: arw Description: Arawak Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ast Description: Asturian Description: Bable Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ath Description: Athapascan languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: aus Description: Australian languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: awa Description: Awadhi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bad Description: Banda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 28] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: bai Description: Bamileke languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bal Description: Baluchi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ban Description: Balinese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bas Description: Basa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bat Description: Baltic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bej Description: Beja Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bem Description: Bemba Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ber Description: Berber (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bho Description: Bhojpuri Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bik Description: Bikol Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 29] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bin Description: Bini Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bla Description: Siksika Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bnt Description: Bantu (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bra Description: Braj Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: btk Description: Batak (Indonesia) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bua Description: Buriat Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: bug Description: Buginese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: byn Description: Blin Description: Bilin Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cad Description: Caddo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 30] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: cai Description: Central American Indian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: car Description: Carib Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cau Description: Caucasian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ceb Description: Cebuano Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cel Description: Celtic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chb Description: Chibcha Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chg Description: Chagatai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chk Description: Chuukese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chm Description: Mari Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chn Description: Chinook jargon Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 31] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cho Description: Choctaw Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chp Description: Chipewyan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chr Description: Cherokee Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: chy Description: Cheyenne Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cmc Description: Chamic languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cop Description: Coptic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cpe Description: Creoles and pidgins, English-based (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: cpf Description: Creoles and pidgins, French-based (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cpp Description: Creoles and pidgins, Portuguese-based (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 32] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: crh Description: Crimean Tatar Description: Crimean Turkish Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: crp Description: Creoles and pidgins (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: csb Description: Kashubian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: cus Description: Cushitic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dak Description: Dakota Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dar Description: Dargwa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: day Description: Dayak Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: del Description: Delaware Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: den Description: Slave (Athapascan) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dgr Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 33] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Dogrib Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: din Description: Dinka Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: doi Description: Dogri Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dra Description: Dravidian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dsb Description: Lower Sorbian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dua Description: Duala Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dum Description: Dutch, Middle (ca. 1050-1350) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: dyu Description: Dyula Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: efi Description: Efik Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: egy Description: Egyptian (Ancient) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 34] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: eka Description: Ekajuk Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: elx Description: Elamite Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: enm Description: English, Middle (1100-1500) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ewo Description: Ewondo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fan Description: Fang Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fat Description: Fanti Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fil Description: Filipino Description: Pilipino Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fiu Description: Finno-Ugrian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fon Description: Fon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: frm Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 35] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: French, Middle (ca. 1400-1800) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fro Description: French, Old (842-ca. 1400) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: fur Description: Friulian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gaa Description: Ga Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gay Description: Gayo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gba Description: Gbaya Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gem Description: Germanic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gez Description: Geez Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gil Description: Gilbertese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gmh Description: German, Middle High (ca. 1050-1500) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 36] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: goh Description: German, Old High (ca. 750-1050) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gon Description: Gondi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gor Description: Gorontalo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: got Description: Gothic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: grb Description: Grebo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: grc Description: Greek, Ancient (to 1453) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: gwi Description: Gwich´in Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hai Description: Haida Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: haw Description: Hawaiian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hil Description: Hiligaynon Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 37] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: him Description: Himachali Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hit Description: Hittite Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hmn Description: Hmong Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hsb Description: Upper Sorbian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: hup Description: Hupa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: iba Description: Iban Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ijo Description: Ijo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ilo Description: Iloko Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: inc Description: Indic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 38] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: ine Description: Indo-European (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: inh Description: Ingush Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ira Description: Iranian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: iro Description: Iroquoian languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: jbo Description: Lojban Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: jpr Description: Judeo-Persian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: jrb Description: Judeo-Arabic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kaa Description: Kara-Kalpak Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kab Description: Kabyle Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kac Description: Kachin Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 39] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: kam Description: Kamba Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kar Description: Karen Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kaw Description: Kawi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kbd Description: Kabardian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kha Description: Khasi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: khi Description: Khoisan (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kho Description: Khotanese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kmb Description: Kimbundu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kok Description: Konkani Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Deva %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 40] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: kos Description: Kosraean Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kpe Description: Kpelle Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: krc Description: Karachay-Balkar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kro Description: Kru Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kru Description: Kurukh Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kum Description: Kumyk Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: kut Description: Kutenai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lad Description: Ladino Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lah Description: Lahnda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lam Description: Lamba Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 41] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: lez Description: Lezghian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lol Description: Mongo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: loz Description: Lozi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lua Description: Luba-Lulua Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lui Description: Luiseno Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lun Description: Lunda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: luo Description: Luo (Kenya and Tanzania) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: lus Description: Lushai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mad Description: Madurese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mag Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 42] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Magahi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mai Description: Maithili Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Deva %% Type: language Subtag: mak Description: Makasar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: man Description: Mandingo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: map Description: Austronesian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mas Description: Masai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mdf Description: Moksha Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mdr Description: Mandar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: men Description: Mende Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: mga Description: Irish, Middle (900-1200) Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 43] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mic Description: Mi'kmaq Description: Micmac Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: min Description: Minangkabau Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mis Description: Miscellaneous languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mkh Description: Mon-Khmer (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mnc Description: Manchu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mni Description: Manipuri Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mno Description: Manobo languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: moh Description: Mohawk Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mos Description: Mossi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 44] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: mul Description: Multiple languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mun Description: Munda languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mus Description: Creek Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mwl Description: Mirandese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: mwr Description: Marwari Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: myn Description: Mayan languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: myv Description: Erzya Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nah Description: Nahuatl Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nai Description: North American Indian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nap Description: Neapolitan Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 45] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nds Description: Low German Description: Low Saxon Description: German, Low Description: Saxon, Low Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: new Description: Nepal Bhasa Description: Newari Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nia Description: Nias Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nic Description: Niger-Kordofanian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: niu Description: Niuean Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nog Description: Nogai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: non Description: Norse, Old Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nso Description: Northern Sotho Description: Pedi Description: Sepedi Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 46] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: nub Description: Nubian languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nwc Description: Classical Newari Description: Old Newari Description: Classical Nepal Bhasa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nym Description: Nyamwezi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nyn Description: Nyankole Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nyo Description: Nyoro Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: nzi Description: Nzima Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: osa Description: Osage Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ota Description: Turkish, Ottoman (1500-1928) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: oto Description: Otomian languages Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 47] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: paa Description: Papuan (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pag Description: Pangasinan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pal Description: Pahlavi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pam Description: Pampanga Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pap Description: Papiamento Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pau Description: Palauan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: peo Description: Persian, Old (ca. 600-400 B.C.) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: phi Description: Philippine (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: phn Description: Phoenician Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pon Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 48] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Pohnpeian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pra Description: Prakrit languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: pro Description: Provençal, Old (to 1500) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: qaa..qtz Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: raj Description: Rajasthani Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: rap Description: Rapanui Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: rar Description: Rarotongan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: roa Description: Romance (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: rom Description: Romany Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sad Description: Sandawe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 49] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: sah Description: Yakut Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sai Description: South American Indian (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sal Description: Salishan languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sam Description: Samaritan Aramaic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sas Description: Sasak Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sat Description: Santali Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: scn Description: Sicilian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sco Description: Scots Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sel Description: Selkup Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sem Description: Semitic (Other) Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 50] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sga Description: Irish, Old (to 900) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sgn Description: Sign Languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: shn Description: Shan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sid Description: Sidamo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sio Description: Siouan languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sit Description: Sino-Tibetan (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sla Description: Slavic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sma Description: Southern Sami Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: smi Description: Sami languages (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 51] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: smj Description: Lule Sami Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: smn Description: Inari Sami Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sms Description: Skolt Sami Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: snk Description: Soninke Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sog Description: Sogdian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: son Description: Songhai Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: srn Description: Sranan Tongo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: srr Description: Serer Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ssa Description: Nilo-Saharan (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: suk Description: Sukuma Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 52] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sus Description: Susu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: sux Description: Sumerian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: syr Description: Syriac Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tai Description: Tai (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tem Description: Timne Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: ter Description: Tereno Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tet Description: Tetum Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tig Description: Tigre Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tiv Description: Tiv Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 53] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: language Subtag: tkl Description: Tokelau Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tlh Description: Klingon Description: tlhIngan-Hol Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tli Description: Tlingit Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tmh Description: Tamashek Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tog Description: Tonga (Nyasa) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tpi Description: Tok Pisin Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tsi Description: Tsimshian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tum Description: Tumbuka Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tup Description: Tupi languages Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 54] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: language Subtag: tut Description: Altaic (Other) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: tvl Description: Tuvalu Added: 2005-06-20 Suppress-Script: Latn %% Type: language Subtag: tyv Description: Tuvinian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: udm Description: Udmurt Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: uga Description: Ugaritic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: umb Description: Umbundu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: und Description: Undetermined Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: vai Description: Vai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: vot Description: Votic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 55] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: wak Description: Wakashan languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: wal Description: Walamo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: war Description: Waray Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: was Description: Washo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: wen Description: Sorbian languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: xal Description: Kalmyk Description: Oirat Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: yao Description: Yao Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: yap Description: Yapese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: ypk Description: Yupik languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: zap Description: Zapotec Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 56] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: zen Description: Zenaga Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: znd Description: Zande Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: language Subtag: zun Description: Zuni Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Arab Description: Arabic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Armn Description: Armenian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Bali Description: Balinese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Batk Description: Batak Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Beng Description: Bengali Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Blis Description: Blissymbols Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 57] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: Bopo Description: Bopomofo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Brah Description: Brahmi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Brai Description: Braille Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Bugi Description: Buginese Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Buhd Description: Buhid Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Cans Description: Unified Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Cham Description: Cham Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Cher Description: Cherokee Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Cirt Description: Cirth Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Copt Description: Coptic Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 58] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: script Subtag: Cprt Description: Cypriot Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Cyrl Description: Cyrillic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Cyrs Description: Cyrillic (Old Church Slavonic variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Deva Description: Devanagari (Nagari) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Dsrt Description: Deseret (Mormon) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Egyd Description: Egyptian demotic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Egyh Description: Egyptian hieratic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Egyp Description: Egyptian hieroglyphs Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Ethi Description: Ethiopic (Ge‘ez) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Geok Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 59] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Khutsuri (Asomtavruli and Nuskhuri) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Geor Description: Georgian (Mkhedruli) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Glag Description: Glagolitic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Goth Description: Gothic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Grek Description: Greek Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Gujr Description: Gujarati Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Guru Description: Gurmukhi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hang Description: Hangul (Hangŭl, Hangeul) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hani Description: Han (Hanzi, Kanji, Hanja) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hano Description: Hanunoo (Hanunóo) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 60] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: script Subtag: Hans Description: Han (Simplified variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hant Description: Han (Traditional variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hebr Description: Hebrew Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hira Description: Hiragana Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hmng Description: Pahawh Hmong Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hrkt Description: (alias for Hiragana + Katakana) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Hung Description: Old Hungarian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Inds Description: Indus (Harappan) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Ital Description: Old Italic (Etruscan, Oscan, etc.) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Java Description: Javanese Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 61] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Kali Description: Kayah Li Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Kana Description: Katakana Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Khar Description: Kharoshthi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Khmr Description: Khmer Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Knda Description: Kannada Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Laoo Description: Lao Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Latf Description: Latin (Fraktur variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Latg Description: Latin (Gaelic variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Latn Description: Latin Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 62] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: Lepc Description: Lepcha (Róng) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Limb Description: Limbu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Lina Description: Linear A Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Linb Description: Linear B Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Mand Description: Mandaean Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Maya Description: Mayan hieroglyphs Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Mero Description: Meroitic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Mlym Description: Malayalam Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Mong Description: Mongolian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Mymr Description: Myanmar (Burmese) Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 63] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: script Subtag: Nkoo Description: N’Ko Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Ogam Description: Ogham Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Orkh Description: Orkhon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Orya Description: Oriya Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Osma Description: Osmanya Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Perm Description: Old Permic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Phag Description: Phags-pa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Phnx Description: Phoenician Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Plrd Description: Pollard Phonetic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Qaaa..Qabx Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 64] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Roro Description: Rongorongo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Runr Description: Runic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Sara Description: Sarati Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Shaw Description: Shavian (Shaw) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Sinh Description: Sinhala Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Sylo Description: Syloti Nagri Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Syrc Description: Syriac Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Syre Description: Syriac (Estrangelo variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Syrj Description: Syriac (Western variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 65] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: script Subtag: Syrn Description: Syriac (Eastern variant) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Tagb Description: Tagbanwa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Tale Description: Tai Le Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Talu Description: New Tai Lue Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Taml Description: Tamil Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Telu Description: Telugu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Teng Description: Tengwar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Tfng Description: Tifinagh (Berber) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Tglg Description: Tagalog Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Thaa Description: Thaana Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 66] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Thai Description: Thai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Tibt Description: Tibetan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Ugar Description: Ugaritic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Vaii Description: Vai Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Visp Description: Visible Speech Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Xpeo Description: Old Persian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Xsux Description: Cuneiform, Sumero-Akkadian Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Yiii Description: Yi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Zxxx Description: Code for unwritten languages Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 67] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: Zyyy Description: Code for undetermined script Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: script Subtag: Zzzz Description: Code for uncoded script Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AA Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AD Description: Andorra Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AE Description: United Arab Emirates Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AF Description: Afghanistan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AG Description: Antigua and Barbuda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AI Description: Anguilla Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AL Description: Albania Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AM Description: Armenia Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 68] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: region Subtag: AN Description: Netherlands Antilles Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AO Description: Angola Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AQ Description: Antarctica Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AR Description: Argentina Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AS Description: American Samoa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AT Description: Austria Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AU Description: Australia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AW Description: Aruba Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AX Description: Åland Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: AZ Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 69] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Azerbaijan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BA Description: Bosnia and Herzegovina Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BB Description: Barbados Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BD Description: Bangladesh Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BE Description: Belgium Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BF Description: Burkina Faso Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BG Description: Bulgaria Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BH Description: Bahrain Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BI Description: Burundi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BJ Description: Benin Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 70] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: region Subtag: BM Description: Bermuda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BN Description: Brunei Darussalam Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BO Description: Bolivia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BR Description: Brazil Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BS Description: Bahamas Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BT Description: Bhutan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BU Description: Burma Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: MM Deprecated: 1989-12-05 %% Type: region Subtag: BV Description: Bouvet Island Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BW Description: Botswana Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 71] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: BY Description: Belarus Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: BZ Description: Belize Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CA Description: Canada Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CC Description: Cocos (Keeling) Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CD Description: Congo, The Democratic Republic of the Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CF Description: Central African Republic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CG Description: Congo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CH Description: Switzerland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CI Description: Côte d'Ivoire Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CK Description: Cook Islands Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 72] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: region Subtag: CL Description: Chile Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CM Description: Cameroon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CN Description: China Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CO Description: Colombia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CR Description: Costa Rica Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CS Description: Serbia and Montenegro Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CU Description: Cuba Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CV Description: Cape Verde Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CX Description: Christmas Island Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CY Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 73] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Cyprus Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: CZ Description: Czech Republic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: DD Description: German Democratic Republic Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: DE Deprecated: 1990-10-30 %% Type: region Subtag: DE Description: Germany Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: DJ Description: Djibouti Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: DK Description: Denmark Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: DM Description: Dominica Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: DO Description: Dominican Republic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: DZ Description: Algeria Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: EC Description: Ecuador Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 74] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: EE Description: Estonia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: EG Description: Egypt Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: EH Description: Western Sahara Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ER Description: Eritrea Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ES Description: Spain Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ET Description: Ethiopia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: FI Description: Finland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: FJ Description: Fiji Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: FK Description: Falkland Islands (Malvinas) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 75] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: FM Description: Micronesia, Federated States of Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: FO Description: Faroe Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: FR Description: France Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: FX Description: Metropolitan France Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: FR Deprecated: 1997-07-14 %% Type: region Subtag: GA Description: Gabon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GB Description: United Kingdom Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GD Description: Grenada Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GE Description: Georgia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GF Description: French Guiana Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GH Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 76] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Ghana Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GI Description: Gibraltar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GL Description: Greenland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GM Description: Gambia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GN Description: Guinea Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GP Description: Guadeloupe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GQ Description: Equatorial Guinea Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GR Description: Greece Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GS Description: South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GT Description: Guatemala Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 77] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: region Subtag: GU Description: Guam Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GW Description: Guinea-Bissau Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: GY Description: Guyana Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: HK Description: Hong Kong Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: HM Description: Heard Island and McDonald Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: HN Description: Honduras Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: HR Description: Croatia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: HT Description: Haiti Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: HU Description: Hungary Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ID Description: Indonesia Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 78] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IE Description: Ireland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IL Description: Israel Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IN Description: India Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IO Description: British Indian Ocean Territory Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IQ Description: Iraq Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IR Description: Iran, Islamic Republic of Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IS Description: Iceland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: IT Description: Italy Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: JM Description: Jamaica Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 79] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: JO Description: Jordan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: JP Description: Japan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KE Description: Kenya Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KG Description: Kyrgyzstan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KH Description: Cambodia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KI Description: Kiribati Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KM Description: Comoros Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KN Description: Saint Kitts and Nevis Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KP Description: Korea, Democratic People's Republic of Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KR Description: Korea, Republic of Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 80] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: region Subtag: KW Description: Kuwait Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KY Description: Cayman Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: KZ Description: Kazakhstan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LA Description: Lao People's Democratic Republic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LB Description: Lebanon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LC Description: Saint Lucia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LI Description: Liechtenstein Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LK Description: Sri Lanka Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LR Description: Liberia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LS Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 81] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Lesotho Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LT Description: Lithuania Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LU Description: Luxembourg Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LV Description: Latvia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: LY Description: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MA Description: Morocco Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MC Description: Monaco Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MD Description: Moldova, Republic of Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MG Description: Madagascar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MH Description: Marshall Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 82] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: region Subtag: MK Description: Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ML Description: Mali Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MM Description: Myanmar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MN Description: Mongolia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MO Description: Macao Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MP Description: Northern Mariana Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MQ Description: Martinique Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MR Description: Mauritania Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MS Description: Montserrat Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MT Description: Malta Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 83] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MU Description: Mauritius Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MV Description: Maldives Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MW Description: Malawi Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MX Description: Mexico Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MY Description: Malaysia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: MZ Description: Mozambique Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NA Description: Namibia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NC Description: New Caledonia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NE Description: Niger Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 84] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: NF Description: Norfolk Island Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NG Description: Nigeria Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NI Description: Nicaragua Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NL Description: Netherlands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NO Description: Norway Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NP Description: Nepal Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NR Description: Nauru Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NT Description: Neutral Zone Added: 2005-06-20 Deprecated: 1993-07-12 %% Type: region Subtag: NU Description: Niue Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: NZ Description: New Zealand Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 85] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: OM Description: Oman Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PA Description: Panama Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PE Description: Peru Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PF Description: French Polynesia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PG Description: Papua New Guinea Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PH Description: Philippines Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PK Description: Pakistan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PL Description: Poland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PM Description: Saint Pierre and Miquelon Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 86] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: PN Description: Pitcairn Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PR Description: Puerto Rico Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PS Description: Palestinian Territory, Occupied Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PT Description: Portugal Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PW Description: Palau Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: PY Description: Paraguay Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: QA Description: Qatar Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: QM..QZ Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: RE Description: Réunion Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: RO Description: Romania Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 87] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: region Subtag: RU Description: Russian Federation Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: RW Description: Rwanda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SA Description: Saudi Arabia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SB Description: Solomon Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SC Description: Seychelles Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SD Description: Sudan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SE Description: Sweden Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SG Description: Singapore Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SH Description: Saint Helena Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SI Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 88] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Slovenia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SJ Description: Svalbard and Jan Mayen Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SK Description: Slovakia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SL Description: Sierra Leone Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SM Description: San Marino Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SN Description: Senegal Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SO Description: Somalia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SR Description: Suriname Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ST Description: Sao Tome and Principe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SU Description: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics Added: 2005-06-20 Deprecated: 1992-08-30 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 89] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: region Subtag: SV Description: El Salvador Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SY Description: Syrian Arab Republic Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: SZ Description: Swaziland Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TC Description: Turks and Caicos Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TD Description: Chad Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TF Description: French Southern Territories Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TG Description: Togo Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TH Description: Thailand Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TJ Description: Tajikistan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TK Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 90] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Tokelau Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TL Description: Timor-Leste Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TM Description: Turkmenistan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TN Description: Tunisia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TO Description: Tonga Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TP Description: East Timor Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: TL Deprecated: 2002-11-15 %% Type: region Subtag: TR Description: Turkey Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TT Description: Trinidad and Tobago Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TV Description: Tuvalu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TW Description: Taiwan, Province of China Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 91] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: TZ Description: Tanzania, United Republic of Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: UA Description: Ukraine Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: UG Description: Uganda Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: UM Description: United States Minor Outlying Islands Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: US Description: United States Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: UY Description: Uruguay Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: UZ Description: Uzbekistan Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: VA Description: Holy See (Vatican City State) Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: VC Description: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 92] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: VE Description: Venezuela Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: VG Description: Virgin Islands, British Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: VI Description: Virgin Islands, U.S. Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: VN Description: Viet Nam Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: VU Description: Vanuatu Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: WF Description: Wallis and Futuna Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: WS Description: Samoa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: XA..XZ Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: YD Description: Yemen, Democratic Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: YE Deprecated: 1990-08-14 %% Type: region Subtag: YE Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 93] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Yemen Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: YT Description: Mayotte Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: YU Description: Yugoslavia Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: CS Deprecated: 2003-07-23 %% Type: region Subtag: ZA Description: South Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ZM Description: Zambia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ZR Description: Zaire Added: 2005-06-20 Preferred-Value: CD Deprecated: 1997-07-14 %% Type: region Subtag: ZW Description: Zimbabwe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: ZZ Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 001 Description: World Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 94] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Subtag: 002 Description: Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 005 Description: South America Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 009 Description: Oceania Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 011 Description: Western Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 013 Description: Central America Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 014 Description: Eastern Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 015 Description: Northern Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 017 Description: Middle Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 018 Description: Southern Africa Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 019 Description: Americas Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 95] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: region Subtag: 021 Description: Northern America Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 029 Description: Caribbean Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 030 Description: Eastern Asia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 035 Description: South-eastern Asia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 039 Description: Southern Europe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 053 Description: Australia and New Zealand Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 054 Description: Melanesia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 057 Description: Micronesia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 061 Description: Polynesia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 062 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 96] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: South-central Asia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 142 Description: Asia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 145 Description: Western Asia Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 150 Description: Europe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 151 Description: Eastern Europe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 154 Description: Northern Europe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 155 Description: Western Europe Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: region Subtag: 419 Description: Latin America and the Caribbean Added: 2005-06-20 %% Type: variant Subtag: 1901 Description: Traditional German orthography Added: 2005-06-20 Prefix: de %% Type: variant Subtag: 1996 Description: German orthography of 1996 Added: 2005-06-20 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 97] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Prefix: de %% Type: variant Subtag: nedis Description: Natisone dialect Description: Nadiza dialect Added: 2005-06-20 Prefix: sl %% Type: variant Subtag: rozaj Description: Resian Description: Resianic Description: Rezijan Added: 2005-06-20 Prefix: sl %% Type: grandfathered Tag: art-lojban Description: Lojban Added: 2001-11-11 Preferred-Value: jbo Deprecated: 2003-09-02 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: cel-gaulish Description: Gaulish Added: 2001-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: de-AT-1901 Description: German, Austrian variant, traditional orthography Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: de-AT-1996 Description: German, Austrian variant, orthography of 1996 Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: de-CH-1901 Description: German, Swiss variant, traditional orthography Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: de-CH-1996 Description: German, Swiss variant, orthography of 1996 Added: 2001-07-17 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 98] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: de-DE-1901 Description: German, German variant, traditional orthography Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: de-DE-1996 Description: German, German variant, orthography of 1996 Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: en-boont Description: Boontling Added: 2003-02-14 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: en-GB-oed Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling Added: 2003-07-09 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: en-scouse Description: Scouse Added: 2000-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-ami Description: 'Amis Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-bnn Description: Bunun Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-default Description: Default Language Added: 1998-03-10 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-enochian Description: Enochian Added: 2002-07-03 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-hak Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 99] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Hakka Added: 1999-01-31 Preferred-Value: zh-hakka Deprecated: 2000-01-10 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-klingon Description: Klingon Added: 1999-05-26 Preferred-Value: tlh Deprecated: 2004-02-24 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-lux Description: Luxembourgish Added: 1997-09-19 Preferred-Value: lb Deprecated: 1998-09-09 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-mingo Description: Mingo Added: 1997-09-19 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-navajo Description: Navajo Added: 1997-09-19 Preferred-Value: nv Deprecated: 2000-02-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-pwn Description: Paiwan Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-tao Description: Tao Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-tay Description: Tayal Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-tsu Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 100] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Tsou Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: no-bok Description: Norwegian Bokmal Added: 1995-08-23 Preferred-Value: nb Deprecated: 2000-02-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: no-nyn Description: Norwegian Nynorsk Added: 1995-08-23 Preferred-Value: nn Deprecated: 2000-02-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: sgn-BE-fr Description: Belgian-French Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: sgn-BE-nl Description: Belgian-Flemish Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: sgn-CH-de Description: Swiss German Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-gan Description: Kan or Gan Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-guoyu Description: Mandarin or Standard Chinese Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-hakka Description: Hakka Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: grandfathered Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 101] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Tag: zh-min Description: Min, Fuzhou, Hokkien, Amoy, or Taiwanese Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-min-nan Description: Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo Added: 2001-03-26 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-wuu Description: Shanghaiese or Wu Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-xiang Description: Xiang or Hunanese Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: zh-yue Description: Cantonese Added: 1999-12-18 %% Type: redundant Tag: az-Arab Description: Azerbaijani in Arabic script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: az-Cyrl Description: Azerbaijani in Cyrillic script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: az-Latn Description: Azerbaijani in Latin script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: be-Latn Description: Belarusian in Latin script Added: 2005-01-06 %% Type: redundant Tag: bs-Cyrl Description: Bosnian in Cyrillic script Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 102] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: bs-Latn Description: Bosnian in Latin script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: de-1901 Description: German, traditional orthography Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: de-1996 Description: German, orthography of 1996 Added: 2001-07-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: iu-Cans Description: Inuktitut in Canadian Aboriginal Syllabic script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: iu-Latn Description: Inuktitut in Latin script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: mn-Cyrl Description: Mongolian in Cyrillic script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: mn-Mong Description: Mongolian in Mongolian script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-BR Description: Brazilian Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-CO Description: Colombian Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 103] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Tag: sgn-DE Description: German Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-DK Description: Danish Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-ES Description: Spanish Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-FR Description: French Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-GB Description: British Sign Language Added: 2001-03-02 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-GR Description: Greek Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-IE Description: Irish Sign Language Added: 2001-03-02 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-IT Description: Italian Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-JP Description: Japanese Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-MX Description: Mexican Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 104] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-NI Description: Nicaraguan Sign Language Added: 2001-03-02 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-NL Description: Dutch Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-NO Description: Norwegian Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-PT Description: Portuguese Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-SE Description: Swedish Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-US Description: American Sign Language Added: 2001-03-02 %% Type: redundant Tag: sgn-ZA Description: South African Sign Language Added: 2001-11-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: sl-nedis Description: Natisone dialect, Nadiza dialect Added: 2004-06-01 %% Type: redundant Tag: sl-rozaj Description: Resian, Resianic, Rezijan Added: 2003-10-09 %% Type: redundant Tag: sr-Cyrl Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 105] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Description: Serbian in Cyrillic script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: sr-Latn Description: Serbian in Latin script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: tg-Arab Description: Tajik in Arabic script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: tg-Cyrl Description: Tajik in Cyrillic script Added: 2005-02-17 %% Type: redundant Tag: uz-Cyrl Description: Uzbek in Cyrillic script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: uz-Latn Description: Uzbek in Latin script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: yi-latn Description: Yiddish, in Latin script Added: 2003-01-07 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hans Description: simplified Chinese Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hans-CN Description: PRC Mainland Chinese in simplified script Added: 2005-04-13 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hans-HK Description: Hong Kong Chinese in simplified script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 106] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hans-MO Description: Macao Chinese in simplified script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hans-SG Description: Singapore Chinese in simplified script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hans-TW Description: Taiwan Chinese in simplified script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hant Description: traditional Chinese Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hant-CN Description: PRC Mainland Chinese in traditional script Added: 2005-04-13 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hant-HK Description: Hong Kong Chinese in traditional script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hant-MO Description: Macao Chinese in traditional script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hant-SG Description: Singapore Chinese in traditional script Added: 2005-04-11 %% Type: redundant Tag: zh-Hant-TW Description: Taiwan Chinese in traditional script Added: 2005-04-11 Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 107] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 3. Security Considerations This document specifies the initial contents to be used by IANA in populating the language subtag registry. For security considerations relevant to that registry and the use of language tags, see [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry]. 4. IANA Considerations This document provides the initial content for the language subtag registry to be maintained by IANA. For details on the procedures for the format and ongoing maintenance of this registry, see [I-D.ietf- ltru-registry]. 5. References 5.1 Normative References [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] Phillips, A., Ed. and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for Identifying Languages", June 2005. 5.2 Informative References [ISO-15924] ISO TC46/WG3, "ISO 15924:2003 (E/F) - Codes for the representation of names of scripts", January 2004. [ISO-3166-1] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 3166- 1:1988 - Codes for the representation of names of countries, 3rd edition", August 1988. [ISO-639-1] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639- 1:2002 - Codes for the representation of names of languages - Part 1: Alpha-2 code", 2002. [ISO-639-2] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639- 2:1998 - Codes for the representation of names of languages - Part 2: Alpha-3 code - edition 1", August 1988. [UN-M.49] United Nations Statistical Division, "Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use", June 1999. [record-jar] Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 108] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Raymond, E., "The Art of Unix Programming", 2003. Author's Address Doug Ewell (editor) Email: dewell@adelphia.net URI: http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 109] =0C Internet-Draft Initial Language Subtag Registry June 2005 Intellectual Property Statement The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. Information on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr. The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at ietf-ipr@ietf.org. Disclaimer of Validity This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Copyright Statement Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. Acknowledgment Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the Internet Society. Ewell Expires December 22, 2005 [Page 110] =0C ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C575DD.44CDFE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C575DD.44CDFE20-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 00:17:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaCP-00072h-NM; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaCO-00072P-QF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13764 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkaaC-00081R-M0 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:41:58 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-238.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.238] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkaCC-0000r5-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000f01c57618$939782c0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5644A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:20:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Addison Phillips" ; "Martin Duerst" ; "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 8:57 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) > > Changes in the editor's copy. > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt ... Ok, can we get a hum on whether these address everyone's concerns regarding issue #944? Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 00:19:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaEo-00079A-VT; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:19:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaEn-000794-82 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:19:49 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13912 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050621041917.MQON19267.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:19:17 -0400 Message-ID: <007001c57618$5b488860$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:19:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org The first version of the initial-registry I-D is now available at the following locations: http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.html http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.xml and most likely in your mailbox as well. :-) Constructive comments of all types are gladly welcomed. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 00:38:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaWo-0001cH-8N; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkaWm-0001Zu-Fa for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:24 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15560 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050621043753.NLHH19267.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:37:53 -0400 Message-ID: <008101c5761a$f0867ca0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050621013634.TDOF4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:37:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >>> Shall the initial LTRU registry be modified to (a) add region >>> subtags 034 and 143 and (b) delete region subtag 062? > > While the additions makes sense, the deletion worries me. > If there is a language uniform across the entire 062 area, > splitting it into 034 and 143 variants would require asserting > that there is variation where there is none of interest. > Of course, if we knew that 062 is not useful for any language, > then the deletion would be harmless. Does someone on this list > know enough about the languages of those regions to be able to > support such a claim? For reference, 034 ("Southern Asia") contains: Afghanistan Bangladesh Bhutan India Iran (Islamic Republic of) Maldives Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka while 143 ("Central Asia") contains: Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan Tajikistan Turkmenistan Uzbekistan and the now-withdrawn 062 ("South-central Asia"), as mentioned before, is the union of these two. I would be surprised if there were not at least one language spoken in both of these regions that exhibits significant variation, and at least one that does not. For that matter, I would imagine the same could be said about any two macro regions in the list. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 00:41:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkaa5-0002Lq-HS; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:41:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkaa3-0002LM-NG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:41:47 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15803 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050621044116.NPAE19267.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:41:16 -0400 Message-ID: <008601c5761b$69e2e840$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050621013634.TDOF4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Can we live with the resolution of #1026? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > The discussion of issue #1026 (started with Jersey and Geurnsey, ended > up principles for handling UN M.49 numeric codes) has quieted down, so > I'd like to get a hum from the group: > > Can you live with how http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf- > ltru-registry-05.txt addresses this issue? > > (see http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02287.html > for the proposed change) I wholeheartedly agree with this approach. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 01:21:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkbCJ-0008Ci-9A; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:21:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkbCG-0008BW-7K for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:21:16 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18909 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkb63-0000QX-Ct for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:14:51 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:14:51 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:14:51 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:18:56 +0200 Organization: Lines: 38 Message-ID: <42B7A340.159A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5643D@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] -06 and #944 (was: Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT)) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out that a tag is an > identifier... :-) You could create a new section 1.1 for the terminology, both 2119 keywords, and the tag vs. subtag terms. In draft -06 you now have it twice, at the begin of 2.1 and also at the begin of 2.2. Once in 1.1 could be good enough. >> References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. >> Please make this either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my >> strong preference) or something like RFC 2331 [23]. > I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to > xml2rfc. You'd just need at the begin, and later use e.g. without any explicit text terminated by . > W3C Specifications are much cleaner. and the "pubrules" stuff are only different, not better. I can actually read plain text US ASCII without a browser. No UTF-8 trouble, no fragment id. without a name=, just text. In a later article Randy said: |> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt |... | |Ok, can we get a hum on whether these address everyone's |concerns regarding issue #944? I've no "hum.wav" and I still like 2.1 in draft -06, bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 01:39:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkbUC-0002h4-2X; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:39:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkbU9-0002eC-P6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:39:45 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA20968 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkbOD-0003T8-8F for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:33:37 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:33:37 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:33:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:38:38 +0200 Organization: Lines: 17 Message-ID: <42B7A7DE.71BD@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <007001c57618$5b488860$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > Constructive comments of all types are gladly welcomed. More like a stupid question, we have two variants -1901 and -1996 resulting in two redundant tags de-1901 and de-1996. We also have six grandfathered tags de-AT-1901, de-CH-1901, de-DE-1901, de-AT-1996, de-CH-1996, de-DE-1996. By simply adding Prefix: de-AT, Prefix: de-CH, Prefix: de-DE to both 1901 and 1996 all eight tags would be redundant. Or are they already all redudant, no matter what the Prefix says ? Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 01:55:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkbiu-0005Rq-MH; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:55:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkbis-0005RT-Im for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:54:58 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22081 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkbcg-0005yP-B6 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:48:34 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:48:34 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:48:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:53:01 +0200 Organization: Lines: 8 Message-ID: <42B7AB3D.7B27@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050621013634.TDOF4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <008101c5761a$f0867ca0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > I would be surprised if there were not at least one language > spoken in both of these regions that exhibits significant > variation, and at least one that does not. I don't see any special problem for say uz. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 11:01:53 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkkG9-00078b-36; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:01:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkkG6-00077p-HZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:01:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28367 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dkkdx-0007l0-TO for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:26:33 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:01:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:01:30 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD56590@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 Thread-Index: AcV2I6oxd3w3svzIQsK9HrrWRyuXAwATmnKw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2005 15:01:30.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B83D0E0:01C57672] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Those should all be redundant. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: 2005?6?20? 22:39 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 >=20 > Doug Ewell wrote: >=20 > > Constructive comments of all types are gladly welcomed. >=20 > More like a stupid question, we have two variants -1901 and > -1996 resulting in two redundant tags de-1901 and de-1996. >=20 > We also have six grandfathered tags de-AT-1901, de-CH-1901, > de-DE-1901, de-AT-1996, de-CH-1996, de-DE-1996. >=20 > By simply adding Prefix: de-AT, Prefix: de-CH, Prefix: de-DE > to both 1901 and 1996 all eight tags would be redundant. >=20 > Or are they already all redudant, no matter what the Prefix > says ? > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 18:50:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkrZJ-0002YG-Vh; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:50:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkrZE-0002XG-9H; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:50:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22047; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkrxE-000195-NR; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:14:52 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkrZB-0004uQ-6K; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:50:01 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Initial Language Subtag Registry Author(s) : D. Ewell Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt Pages : 110 Date : 2005-6-21 This memo defines the initial contents of the Language Subtag Registry specified in RFC 3066bis, ^Tags for Identifying Languages.^ This memo does not define the permanent contents of the registry. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-21164122.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-21164122.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 20:08:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DksnG-0000X8-TY; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:08:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DksnE-0000Ui-LK for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:08:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29292 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DktBB-0003eD-Hn for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:33:24 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:08:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:08:16 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE172BA@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? Thread-Index: AcV1/u325tGxhrJmTISXyblRGd0imQAva4eQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2005 00:08:17.0579 (UTC) FILETIME=[7DC407B0:01C576BE] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1894184185==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1894184185== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UGxheWluZyBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIGNhdGNoLXVwLg0KDQpDb21tZW50cyBpbnRlci1saW5lYXJseSBi ZWxvdy4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFy 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(ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA01014 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DktXG-0004Bv-Ba for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:56:11 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0V2RX332808 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:31:02 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5M0V2HW140368 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:31:02 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5M0V2Ei028810 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:31:02 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-124-227.mts.ibm.com [9.48.124.227]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5M0V1a6028751; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:31:01 -0600 Message-ID: <00f901c576c1$a9ef11b0$e37c3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE172BA@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:30:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e32.co.us.ibm.com id j5M0V2RX332808 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 612a16ba5c5f570bfc42b3ac5606ac53 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I'm happy with it after those changes. Thanks =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" ; "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 17:08 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > Playing additional catch-up. > > Comments inter-linearly below. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com] > > Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5 18:17 > > To: Addison Phillips; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > > > > I think we are almost, but not quite there. This is not because of a > > substantive difference in the numbers, but because the wording is not > > correct. > > > > > Implementations MUST support a limit of at least 33 characters. This > > limit includes at least one subtag of each non-extension, non-priv= ate > > use type. When choosing a buffer limit, a length of at least 42 > > characters is strongly RECOMMENDED. > > > > [The wording here is odd. It feels like we are saying that Implementations > > must support a limit, and that limit must be 33 characters. It is als= o, of > > course, the case that I can do *whatever I want* to a language tag as= a > > [Addison Phillips] deleted a bunch of text... > > > we really don't want people to just blindly pick 42, and thus screw u= p > > extensions, unless they need to truncate. And it doesn't distinguish = the > > cases where I have really no control over a protocol that I must use = to > > exchange a language tag. Thus I have a suggested revision:] > > > > =3D> Language tags SHOULD NOT be truncated unless the meaning of the = tag is > > purposefully being changed, or unless the tag does not fit into a limited > > buffer size specified by a protocol for storage or transmission. Protocols > > that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for > > language > > tags of up to 33 characters, and SHOULD allow for language tags of at > > least > > 42 characters. As truncation can change the semantic meaning of the t= ag, > > it > > is RECOMMENDED that the user be warned of any truncation. > [Addison Phillips] > > Added this text verbatim in place of the existing text. > > > > > > In these cases, > > implementations SHOULD use the longest possible language tag. > > Warning the user of truncation, if necessary, is RECOMMENDED, as > > truncation can change the semantic meaning of the tag. > > > > [This text from further down is now not necessary. It was unnecessari= ly > > limiting anyway; it is not only those circumstances where language ta= gs > > should not be shortened.] > [Addison Phillips] > > This is a different case that is worth pointing out. The other text focuses on limitations where it is possible to document as specific size limitation. In this case, the limitation is a by-product of other header items and is a variable size and may be quite large. This is distinct fro= m the previous text which strongly suggests specific enumerated sizes and places the burden on the protocol or specification (here the burden is on implementations to support the largest possible tag). In any case, to mak= e this text clearer, I changed it to: > > Some specifications are space constrained but do not have a fixed length limitation. In these cases, implementations SHOULD use the longest possible language tag. Warning the user of truncation, if necessary, is RECOMMENDED, as truncation can change the semantic meaning of the tag. Fo= r example, [RFC 2231] has no explicit leng= th limitation: the length available for the language tag is constrained by t= he length of other header components (such as the charset's name) coupled wi= th the 76 character limit in [RFC 2047]. Thu= s the "limit" might be 50 or more characters, but it could potentially be quite small. > > > > > > > In practice, most tags do not require additional subtags or > > substantially more characters. > > > > [This is from a bit higher up. Remove, since it is not necessary in > > context. > > Also not really complete "more than what", "to do what"? The second > > sentence > > of that paragraph is a better lead-in. If there were no further chang= es > > necessary, we could live with this, but because some are, we should d= o > > this.] > > > [Addison Phillips] > > Changed to: > > In practice, most tags do not require more than a few subtags and will = not approach reasonably sized buffer limitations. > > > > =E2=80=8EMark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Gro= up" > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 16:45 > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > > > > > > My contribution to the hum: I feel that this is resolved. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.o= rg] > > On > > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > > Sent: 2005?6?20? 16:39 > > > To: LTRU Working Group > > > Subject: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether > > > a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what > > > those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the group: > > > > > > Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt= ? > > > > > > As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included > > > whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > > > lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale > > > was sufficiently clear. > > > > > > Randy, ltru co-chair > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ltru mailing list > > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 20:40:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DktIB-0003ia-Fq; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:40:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DktIA-0003hk-K3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:40:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA01667 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dktg9-0004PV-Hr for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:05:24 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5M0eLI29015; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:40:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id bf925baa_e2b7_11d9_8dd9_0030482532aa_32423; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:51:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO004EB1; 22 Jun 05 09:44:57 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 22 Jun 05 09:44:39 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.64) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG004EAD; 22 Jun 05 09:44:27 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050622093752.0750e970@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:38:44 +0900 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143,delete 062 In-Reply-To: <008101c5761a$f0867ca0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> References: <20050621013634.TDOF4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <008101c5761a$f0867ca0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I agree with Doug (and Randy). Let's keep them all. Martin. At 13:37 05/06/21, Doug Ewell wrote: >Randy Presuhn wrote: > >>>> Shall the initial LTRU registry be modified to (a) add region >>>> subtags 034 and 143 and (b) delete region subtag 062? >> >> While the additions makes sense, the deletion worries me. >> If there is a language uniform across the entire 062 area, >> splitting it into 034 and 143 variants would require asserting >> that there is variation where there is none of interest. >I would be surprised if there were not at least one language spoken in >both of these regions that exhibits significant variation, and at least >one that does not. For that matter, I would imagine the same could be >said about any two macro regions in the list. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 22:45:52 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkvFQ-0005wQ-4P; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:45:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkvFO-0005wL-FR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:45:50 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10836 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050622024429.QBTN29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:44:29 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c576d4$4b29c4a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050621160857.COHO24938.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:44:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > More like a stupid question, we have two variants -1901 and > -1996 resulting in two redundant tags de-1901 and de-1996. > > We also have six grandfathered tags de-AT-1901, de-CH-1901, > de-DE-1901, de-AT-1996, de-CH-1996, de-DE-1996. > > By simply adding Prefix: de-AT, Prefix: de-CH, Prefix: de-DE > to both 1901 and 1996 all eight tags would be redundant. > > Or are they already all redudant, no matter what the Prefix > says ? Not a stupid question at all. I goofed. All of the tags Frank listed should be redundant. The Prefix for a variant subtag doesn't have to include every subtag that precedes it. "de" as the Prefix for 1901 and 1996 also covers de-AT, de-CH, de-DE, and de-any-other-extended-language-or-script-or-region-that-needs-it. Thanks to Frank for catching this. That's why we need plenty of eyes to look at this. I've made the change in the file that will eventually become draft-initial-01. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 22:59:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkvSW-0001f1-OV; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:59:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkvSV-0001ew-KM for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:59:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA12090 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net ([68.168.78.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkvqX-0007nN-2h for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:24:14 -0400 Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050622025908.FQQT19267.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:59:08 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c576d6$525358c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050621013634.TDOF4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <008101c5761a$f0867ca0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <6.0.0.20.2.20050622093752.0750e970@localhost> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:58:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > I agree with Doug (and Randy). Let's keep them all. I wasn't actually arguing to keep them all. My point was supposed to be that *any* two regions in the world, say Micronesia and Middle Africa, could potentially have what Randy posited -- a language that shows no variation between the two regions, such that a distinction in tagging would be pointless. There's nothing special about 034 and 143 in this regard, except that they were formerly subsumed under the same UN region code (062). But unlike alpha-2 codes, the numeric codes have never been valid in language tags, so there is no backward-compatibility reason to keep 062 valid, as there is for, say, SU. I'm opposed to keeping 062, but I won't put up a serious fight about it. There are better fights to be picked. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 21 23:23:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkvpq-0001mf-Pp; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:23:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkvpp-0001mY-Pp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:23:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14176 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkwDp-0008NG-JB for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:48:20 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:23:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:23:09 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17313@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Thread-Index: AcV21nJjLb2gjYi4ToyTjIy4SR7S0AAAxhsg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2005 03:23:10.0414 (UTC) FILETIME=[B73D0EE0:01C576D9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1456330297==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1456330297== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1456330297==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 00:12:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkwaY-0001wZ-Az; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:11:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DkwaW-0001uK-Mw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:11:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17554 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkwyZ-0001Bx-P9 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:36:35 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-34-60.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.34.60] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DkwaU-0004hx-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:11:42 -0400 Message-ID: <004c01c576e1$018771a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17313@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:15:20 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Doug Ewell" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:23 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143,delete 062 > > Date A/Date B rules apply, no? Thus, I'm with Doug here. > But only for that reason and not for any particular logical reason. ... I understand the need for Date A/Date B rules where there has been or might be re-use of codes. Are we assuming that UN M.49 will have the same problems? Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 01:34:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkxs8-0005TT-I6; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:34:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dkxs5-0005TM-Br for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:33:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA23958 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.133]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DkyG8-0003CH-5j for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:58:49 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M5XjtC401634 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:33:46 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5M5XjHW143702 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:33:45 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5M5XjLM026809 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:33:45 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-117-215.mts.ibm.com [9.48.117.215]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5M5XhMq026790; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:33:44 -0600 Message-ID: <018a01c576eb$f3c08600$e37c3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17313@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <004c01c576e1$018771a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:33:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e35.co.us.ibm.com id j5M5XjtC401634 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org The advantage of the way the UN works (as opposed to the iso codes) is th= at that they introduce new codes instead of giving old codes new meaning. So= we don't have the same compatibility issues. The only issue that we had is what to have in the first release; it's not really a problem. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 21:15 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delet= e 062 > Hi - > > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Doug Ewell" ; "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:23 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143,delete 062 > > > > Date A/Date B rules apply, no? Thus, I'm with Doug here. > > But only for that reason and not for any particular logical reason. > ... > > I understand the need for Date A/Date B rules where there has been or might be > re-use of codes. Are we assuming that UN M.49 will have the same problems? > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 07:00:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl2yY-0007Ha-35; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:00:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl2yW-0007EZ-Ej for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:00:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA24505 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dl3Mc-0002yo-Ae for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:25:51 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dl2yK-0004EL-Vw; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:00:45 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050619182551.057729a0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:00:33 +0200 To: mentors@dot-root.com From: r&d afrac In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55DDE@irvmbxw01.quest.c om> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55DDE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Cc: langtags@afrac.org, ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] QED X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 17:34 19/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: >I'm not feeding the trolls, no matter what they choose to call themselves. Dear Dot-Rooters, I told you the way you would be accepted ... QED. Further to the technical concertation meeting you invited me on Monday, I wish to repeat: 1. thank you for assuming my relay for a few weeks and even participating. 2. I agree with your responsible attitude towards Addison. An authors' trolling does affect his documents. 3. AFRAC has no objection so far to the WG-ltru Chairs. They may play wisely due to circumstances and authors (see above). I also confirm that: - AFRAC will present a Draft if the debate over the Charter is not carried on, or if the results stay negative for Internet users. - this Draft will be introduced through the WG-ltru if possible. - http://rfc3066.org has been activated. It is a site for all. The AFRAC positions I documented: - IETF/AFRAC/INTLNET are involved in networking, not in lingustic/terminology. A language is a relation protocol within a space of exchanges. A langtag is a possible code for an SoE. We need to be consistant with ISO 11179 as an SoE can correlate with any standard. - RFC 3066's simplicity is to be preserved and increased. Current Draft's is "unreadable" (we have to propose a langtag ... :-)). - this way all the documents, works and RFCs which refer to RFC 3066/BC 47 will be respected. - if it does not go through we will publish a Draft/TNS on x-tags (Mr. Charles: we will warn every developper to support long private subtags). - every solution is to be ISO 11179, ISO 639-1/2/3/4/5/6 and ISO 3166-1/2 conformant.. - it will conform to ISO 15924 as per the directions given by ISO 639-4 - E.164, X.121, N.49 and INTLFILE will be supported too. - we will support all the experimentation charters you presented. However we need you to proceed by the book: please document the status of your generic NIC project - we need to address the externet registry first. Gositer 0.3 should be ready as far as I am concerned (the current AFRAC site is built with it). - we expect to port the INTLFILE to five hexa codes by mid-August. I still wait for the Chinese root elements from MINC. - we disapprove the idea of setting-up an ietf-languages@rfc3066.org mailing list except if this is an experimental list, within the framework of an rfc3066.org Draft. A specialised face to face meeting is called on Tuesday September 6 (or 13th?) in Versailles over the RFC 3066 drafts, the x-tags format, their IPv6 access grids, the metalang metamodel, the report on the dot-root testing the Varsaw meeting. If you have other topics to rise, please advise Intlnet secretariat. Members of the WG-ltru will be welcome if. I am not sure I am in Paris at the time of the IETF meeting and I doubt AFRAC will want to spend $ 500 for it. I suppose I will attend one or two Guest Events. We could propose a WG-ltru F2F meeting as a diner in Paris or Versailles if some are interested (and here in first part of August?) Pascal: we could do something in Luxembourg after the ccTLD Meeting? jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 11:09:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl6qk-0006Ag-A5; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl6qi-0006Ab-E7 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:08 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21247 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dl6ja-0003aA-PP for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:01:46 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-140.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.140]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:01:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-140.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:01:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:03:56 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42B97DDC.C1B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17313@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <004c01c576e1$018771a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-140.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Are we assuming that UN M.49 will have the same problems? It's no big LTRU-problem if it's limited to macro-regions. OTOH it's not related to tectonics (003, 062, 830). CY and GE as Western Asia are somewhat dubious. The most useful macro-code is es-419, otherwise I'd propose to delete the macro-region codes, who on earth needs 001 ? Bye, Frank P.S., okay, tlh-001, because most of tlh would be elsewhere. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 11:51:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl7VU-0004yo-S6; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:51:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl7VT-0004y2-FA for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:51:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25654 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dl7tb-0004sE-VW for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:16:13 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:51:00 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:51:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] QED Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:51:08 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] QED Thread-Index: AcV3GbgXdJyaM68kRBKYLcAKI1flfgAGD9KA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2005 15:51:00.0480 (UTC) FILETIME=[2FE1C800:01C57742] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of r&d afrac > >I'm not feeding the trolls, no matter what they choose to call themselves. >=20 > Dear Dot-Rooters, > I told you the way you would be accepted ... QED. *This* post to LTRU is a troll. I'll respond only because I think the relative newcomer, F. Charles, should be given a chance to hear more than Jefsey's evaluation of the members of this list. If one goes into a situation expecting to be received poorly, they can easily ensure they feel rejected, regardless of how others perceived them. Don't jump to conclusions about others' perceptions.=20 F. Charles came on the list asking if the syntax for tags could be extended to allow comments of length > 8 and including "." within subtags. That suggestion was rejected with reasons -- the need to maintain backward compatibility -- clearly stated. At that point, I don't think he was considered by anyone to be a troll.=20 When the response offered was ignored, and the request was repeated without providing substantive justification for overriding back-compat concerns and the risks that would entail, that begins to take the appearance of a troll.=20 If I go into a group asking them to change a fundamental principle underlying their work such as back-compat, I should expect that I will need to work hard to clearly communicate a strong case for that change, and that at any point I might reasonably be perceived as a nuisance. That is a risk I must be prepared for, and if people in that group do get annoyed with me, I need to accept that the response was predictable from my behaviour. Now, I don't know that anyone got annoyed with F. Charles, but when he disregarded one of this group's fundamental principles -- the need to maintain backwards compatibility with existing implementations, he should have been prepared for *any* response that might ensue. (Perhaps he wasn't aware he was attacking such a fundamental principle held by the group; but knowing that it was such should account for whatever reaction he might have perceived.) That exchange was not what led to Addison's reference to trolls, however. It was this thread related to Jefsey's suggestion that a re-evaluation of the charter for this group is necessary. As a result of his repeated behaviour on this list -- useful contributions on a few occasions, but far more often impractical suggestions, obstruction or insult -- *his* posts are perceived by many to be trolls. As a result, a post from an unknown contributor supporting one of Jefsey's trolling posts is prone to be classified as a troll merely by association. In simple terms, F. Charles has not been part of this list long enough for any one to have pigeon-holed him as a troll; it is Jefsey they are reacting to. I invite F. Charles to dialog further with this group, but in doing so to recognize that they have been working together for a long time, and are very nearly at the completion of a major milestone, meaning that any significant change is considered extremely costly, and proposals to make radical changes to requirements that have been considered fundamental from the outset are not going to be received well. =20 Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 12:53:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl8Tt-0001Kl-KV; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:53:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl8Ts-0001KA-FA for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:53:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02083 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:53:37 -0400 (EDT) From: info@dot-root.com Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dl8s2-00075r-Hq for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:18:38 -0400 Received: from dot-root by montage.altserver.com with local (Exim 4.44) id 1Dl8Tn-0007LO-2s; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:53:35 -0700 Received: from 82.241.91.24 ([82.241.91.24]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user info@dot-root.com) by dot-root.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1994.82.241.91.24.1119459215.squirrel@dot-root.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [Ltru] QED To: "Peter Constable" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32747 1248] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I am an assistant of Prof. F. Charles. I called him. He will respond in detail to you when back from Africa early next week. He told me to say he believed we had unsubscribed your list, and that he has not read the mail from Mr. Morfin but was statisfied by the Monday meeting for x-tags and he starts signing international testing agreements. He asks if you will be in Paris in August. Respectfully. >> From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On >> Behalf Of r&d afrac > > >> >I'm not feeding the trolls, no matter what they choose to call > themselves. >> >> Dear Dot-Rooters, >> I told you the way you would be accepted ... QED. > > *This* post to LTRU is a troll. I'll respond only because I think the > relative newcomer, F. Charles, should be given a chance to hear more > than Jefsey's evaluation of the members of this list. > > If one goes into a situation expecting to be received poorly, they can > easily ensure they feel rejected, regardless of how others perceived > them. Don't jump to conclusions about others' perceptions. > > F. Charles came on the list asking if the syntax for tags could be > extended to allow comments of length > 8 and including "." within > subtags. That suggestion was rejected with reasons -- the need to > maintain backward compatibility -- clearly stated. At that point, I > don't think he was considered by anyone to be a troll. > > When the response offered was ignored, and the request was repeated > without providing substantive justification for overriding back-compat > concerns and the risks that would entail, that begins to take the > appearance of a troll. > If I go into a group asking them to change a fundamental principle > underlying their work such as back-compat, I should expect that I will > need to work hard to clearly communicate a strong case for that change, > and that at any point I might reasonably be perceived as a nuisance. > That is a risk I must be prepared for, and if people in that group do > get annoyed with me, I need to accept that the response was predictable > from my behaviour. Now, I don't know that anyone got annoyed with F. > Charles, but when he disregarded one of this group's fundamental > principles -- the need to maintain backwards compatibility with existing > implementations, he should have been prepared for *any* response that > might ensue. (Perhaps he wasn't aware he was attacking such a > fundamental principle held by the group; but knowing that it was such > should account for whatever reaction he might have perceived.) > > That exchange was not what led to Addison's reference to trolls, > however. It was this thread related to Jefsey's suggestion that a > re-evaluation of the charter for this group is necessary. As a result of > his repeated behaviour on this list -- useful contributions on a few > occasions, but far more often impractical suggestions, obstruction or > insult -- *his* posts are perceived by many to be trolls. As a result, a > post from an unknown contributor supporting one of Jefsey's trolling > posts is prone to be classified as a troll merely by association. In > simple terms, F. Charles has not been part of this list long enough for > any one to have pigeon-holed him as a troll; it is Jefsey they are > reacting to. > > I invite F. Charles to dialog further with this group, but in doing so > to recognize that they have been working together for a long time, and > are very nearly at the completion of a major milestone, meaning that any > significant change is considered extremely costly, and proposals to make > radical changes to requirements that have been considered fundamental > from the outset are not going to be received well. > > > > > Peter Constable > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 14:02:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl9Yo-0005ab-VV; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl9Yn-0005Zq-2l for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07326 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dl9fv-0000VV-4T for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:10:12 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5MHitPb016334; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:45:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Randy Presuhn'" , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:45:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, The text is all pretty clear, but some numbered subsections and a little reorganization (for like topics) are badly needed. Hidden far down in the middle of _fifth_ paragraph of section 2.1.1 'Length Considerations' is out Normative length requirement of 33 characters for buffers. I suggest inserting some subsections and breaking up the two-topic (length and truncation) fifth paragraph as follows: 2.1.1.1 Tag Length Conformance Requirements Protocols or specifications that conform to the current version of this document and specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 33 characters, and SHOULD allow for language tags of at least 42 characters. 2.1.1.2 Tag Truncation Conformance Requirements Language tags SHOULD NOT be truncated unless the meaning of the tag is purposefully being changed, or unless the tag does not fit into a limited buffer size specified by a protocol for storage or transmission. As truncation can change the semantic meaning of the tag, it is RECOMMENDED that the user be warned of any truncation. up to section 2.1.1.2 after the existing > 2.1.1.3 Derivation of Tag Length Requirements
OK? Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 12:21 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) > > > Hi - > > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Addison Phillips" ; > "Martin Duerst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > ; "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 8:57 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > (yes, BUT) > > > > Changes in the editor's copy. > > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.html > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt > ... > > Ok, can we get a hum on whether these address everyone's > concerns regarding issue #944? > > Randy, ltru co-chair > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 14:02:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl9Yu-0005eM-1t; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl9Ys-0005cj-7x for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07389 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dl9cW-0000NS-Lm for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:06:41 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-5-169.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.169] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dl9EK-0002BR-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:41:41 -0400 Message-ID: <002a01c57752$276cea00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17313@irvmbxw01.quest.com><004c01c576e1$018771a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42B97DDC.C1B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:45:16 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:03 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143,delete 062 > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Are we assuming that UN M.49 will have the same problems? > > It's no big LTRU-problem if it's limited to macro-regions. > OTOH it's not related to tectonics (003, 062, 830). > > CY and GE as Western Asia are somewhat dubious. The most > useful macro-code is es-419, otherwise I'd propose to delete > the macro-region codes, who on earth needs 001 ? Bye, Frank > > P.S., okay, tlh-001, because most of tlh would be elsewhere. I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is this: (1) What is the value of deleting UN M.49 codes? (2) If there is no particular benefit dervied from deletions, why bother? (3) If we delete one, and, in the future, someone discovers they need it, how will it be restored? (4) If a mechanism to handle (3) is in place, then why don't we simply start with an empty list, rather than fretting over these cases one-by-one? Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 14:18:38 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl9o6-0002Od-5r; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:18:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dl9o3-0002L9-QG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:18:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12155 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.72]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlA7D-00036w-UH for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:24 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-5-169.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.169] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-sarus.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dl9j1-0002in-00; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:13:23 -0400 Message-ID: <003501c57756$95e60620$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: , "r&d afrac" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD55DDE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050619182551.057729a0@mail.afrac.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] QED Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:16:59 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: langtags@afrac.org, ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "r&d afrac" > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 4:00 AM > Subject: [Ltru] QED ... > I am not sure I am in Paris at the time of the IETF meeting and I doubt > AFRAC will want to spend $ 500 for it. I suppose I will attend one or two > Guest Events. We could propose a WG-ltru F2F meeting as a diner in Paris or > Versailles if some are interested (and here in first part of August?) ... This would be inappropriate. The IESG has given clear direction in http://www.ietf.org/IESG/STATEMENTS/Interim-meetings.txt; I draw your attention to the following paragraph from that statement: | The area directors will evaluate proposed interim meetings and conference | calls to be sure that that the location, timing, etc. do not unfairly favor | some subset of the potential attendees and that the proposed meeting or call | will not unfairly bias the working group discussions. Interim meetings | which are proposed to eliminate the need for a working group to meet during | a regular IETF meeting will not generally be approved nor will proposals of | interim meetings to be held within 30 days before a regular IETF meeting. There is still time for us to request a slot for an ltru WG session in Paris. However, meeting would be pointless unless there were significant open issues in our chartered deliverables or significant interest in discussing follow-on work, in anticipation of requesting additions to our chartered deliverables. As a practical matter, I'd want to see a proposed agenda, as well as a rough consensus on the ltru WG mailing list that a face-to-face meeting was needed, before I'd be willing to start negotiating with our area director. Note that the hotel is holding the IETF room block only until this week, so those who plan to attend the Paris IETF meeting should already have made their reservations. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 16:57:29 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlCHm-000304-Np; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:57:29 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlCHh-0002zx-R4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:57:24 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04601 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlCAI-0005dP-MD for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:49:42 +0200 Received: from du-001-022.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.22]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:49:42 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-022.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:49:42 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:44:30 +0200 Organization: Lines: 27 Message-ID: <42B9CDAE.3BB8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17313@irvmbxw01.quest.com><004c01c576e1$018771a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <42B97DDC.C1B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <002a01c57752$276cea00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-022.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > (1) What is the value of deleting UN M.49 codes? They're not deleted in the tag registry, once in (reflecting the "valid at date-B" state), forever in. If they'd delete e.g. 419 after date-B it won't affect valid es-419 tags. Many possible reasons why they might want to reorganize their macro-regions, as we have seen for the old 003, 062, and 830. > (2) If there is no particular benefit dervied from deletions, > why bother? Because the draft says so. Nobody is interested in obsolete UN macro-region numbers for say the former SU excl. EE/LT/LV, we even have a (deprecated) SU for those who think to need it. > (3) If we delete one, and, in the future, someone discovers > they need it, how will it be restored? Only valid codes are added, as specified. There's no "but I need the obsolete 003, 200, 830, whatever" rule in the draft. All is well, only the date-B state changes, and that's how we wanted it instead of an old 2005-01-01 UN M.49 snapshot. Bye _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 22 22:24:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlHO1-00033l-4a; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:24:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlHNz-00033g-SV for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:24:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08352 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlHmB-0007n5-PE for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:49:15 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DlHNu-0003Dg-Qm; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:24:07 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050623001650.043712e0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:23:52 +0200 To: "Peter Constable" , From: r&d afrac Subject: RE: [Ltru] QED In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 17:51 22/06/2005, Peter Constable wrote: >*This* post to LTRU is a troll. I'll respond only because I think the >relative newcomer, F. Charles, should be given a chance to hear more than >Jefsey's evaluation of the members of this list. Hi! Peter, I am afraid you are trolling yourself this time. We are just transparent. That exchange was not what led to Addison's reference to trolls, >however. It was this thread related to Jefsey's suggestion that a >re-evaluation of the charter for this group is necessary. ??? We only wait for a common reading of the Charter and of its thorny points, as announced by Randy. We do not think the Draft concepts follow the Charter. The recent responses over x-tags show it. >As a result of his repeated behaviour on this list -- useful contributions >on a few occasions, but far more often impractical suggestions, >obstruction or insult ... I do not really care as I have no dispute with you (except when you talk of "end users") but can you please quote the URL of this "insult" ? All the best. jfc PS. All of you who happen to be in Paris send me a mail. BTW work for ISOC France to host a nice evening (should be on Aug. 4th). _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 01:46:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlKXg-0006cX-7P; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:46:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlKXc-0006c8-PD for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:46:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA13537 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlKvs-0008I5-O4 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:11:25 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-39.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.39] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DlKXa-00004M-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:46:18 -0400 Message-ID: <005f01c577b7$62be8220$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050623001650.043712e0@mail.afrac.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] QED Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:49:55 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "r&d afrac" > To: "Peter Constable" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:23 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] QED ... > ??? We only wait for a common reading of the Charter and of its thorny > points, as announced by Randy. We do not think the Draft concepts follow > the Charter. The recent responses over x-tags show it. As I wrote nearly two months ago: I do wish you would not twist my words. I don't know whether the problem is in your reading, your understanding, or your writing. I suggest you engage the services of someone fluent in technical French and English. I know that many such people exist. To be perfectly clear: - the charter is not up for debate until we complete our work - the charter imposes specific requirements on what we deliver - we need to ensure that what we produces addresses all the mandatory requirements imposed by our charter If you read anything more into my use of the phrase "thorny questions" on April 7, you are mistaken. You have been corrected on this point repeatedly, but have proven incorrigible. ... > I do not really care as I have no dispute with you (except when you talk of > "end users") but can you please quote the URL of this "insult" ? ... http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02372.html is a recent example of what I would consider an insulting post. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 04:34:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlNAG-0005Yw-Am; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:34:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlNAE-0005Yl-Tj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:34:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA16113 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlNYV-0007Ew-7X for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:59:28 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5N8XoC20575; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:33:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 10d4435a_e3c3_11d9_9e88_0030482532aa_2375; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:44:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO0053AA; 23 Jun 05 17:38:30 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 23 Jun 05 17:38:24 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.227.2) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG0053A8; 23 Jun 05 17:38:17 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050623171105.046280d0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:30:59 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5643D@irvmbxw01.quest.c om> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BD5643D@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sorry for the delay. Here are some replies. The rest is fine with me. At 12:46 05/06/21, Addison Phillips wrote: >Some notes below. > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Martin Duerst >> Sent: 2005?6?20? 18:21 >> To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) >> >> At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: >> >Hi - >> > >> >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding whether >> >a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and what >> >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the group: >> > >> >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in >> >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? >> > >> >As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern included >> >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the >> >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying rationale >> >was sufficiently clear. >> >> Overall, I'm quite satisfied. >> >> But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: >> (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless >> somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). >> -05.txt says: >> and such >> documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer tags (for >> example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is >> truncated). >> I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a 'whether' >> sentence. Maybe: >> and such >> documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for >> example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is >> truncated). >[Addison Phillips] > >That's a no-op change, if there ever was one. It's good because it drops >the rather convoluted "disposition" in favor of the more Anglo-Saxon >phrasing you suggest. I'll make this change. First time somebody has called a proposal of mine "Anglo-Saxon phrasing". Delighted to hear that! >> -05.txt says: >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided >> or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the >> "-" character). >> please at least reword to: >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be divided >> or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag ending with the >> "-" character). >> Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, formed) here. Wouldn't >> the later just be enough? >[Addison Phillips] > >Divided is, to be sure, a special case of invalid. But a divided subtag >might be valid per the ABNF--or even the registry. It makes sense to call >out the special case of not chopping mid-tag. "not chopping mid-tag" is much easier to understand (but maybe not yet as formal as the rest of the draft) than "divided". >> An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks about language >> identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single time in that >> section. Please add something at the end of section 1 saying that >> this document defines a language tag that is designed to serve as >> a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem 'identif...' >> just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, as done in >> the title. >[Addison Phillips] > >This text is more-or-less inherited. Must we remove all vestiges of >Harold's authorship? Of course not. But if that's from RFC 3066, then I have to apologise to Harald that I didn't comment on that earlier. >But I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out that a >tag is an identifier... :-) >> >> Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there are subsections, >> good style requires that almost everything (except a relatively short >> intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at least two of them. >> The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and the length >> stuff 2.1.2. >[Addison Phillips] > >No. Section 2 has plenty of structure. Section 2 as such has enough structure. The problem is with Section 2.1. Please fix. >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. >> References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. Please make this >> either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or something >> like RFC 2331 [23]. >[Addison Phillips] > >I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to xml2rfc. W3C >Specifications are much cleaner. I got that problems solved for IRIs (RFC 3987). The source is one click away from http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit. >> I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile makes a good example. >> Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect zh-Latn rather >> than >> zh-Hant. >[Addison Phillips] > >This example was taken from a particular thread "early" on in this WG's >life. Since it is a private use tag, any sort of illogical garbage might >exist. That said, "zh-latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile" would actually >make some sense, wouldn't it? Fine with me. Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 07:14:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlPf8-0003nu-RC; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:14:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlPf7-0003nn-43 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:14:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27560 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlQ3O-0005cu-7u for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:39:33 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DlPev-0004dw-FN; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:14:13 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050623103619.03965c50@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:13:59 +0200 To: "Randy Presuhn" , From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] QED In-Reply-To: <005f01c577b7$62be8220$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050623001650.043712e0@mail.afrac.org> <005f01c577b7$62be8220$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 07:49 23/06/2005, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > ??? We only wait for a common reading of the Charter and of its thorny > > points, as announced by Randy. We do not think the Draft concepts follow > > the Charter. The recent responses over x-tags show it. Dear Randy, I thank you for your response. >As I wrote nearly two months ago: > I do wish you would not twist my words. I don't know whether the problem is > in your reading, your understanding, or your writing. I suggest you > engage the > services of someone fluent in technical French and English. I know that > many > such people exist. I consider this as insulting to you (as well as discriminatory for me, but I am used to). I always said I speak Franglish and read commonly clear English. You chair an IETF WG. IETF is open to everyone on an equal opportunity basis without discrimination of origin, sex, language, beliefs, money, etc. Your role is to make sure I understand. Because I am dedicating time and efforts to offer you a prototype of the standard IETF international user. If I do not understand, nor the money to get your texts explained to me by experts, it is likely that millions of people around the world will not. I am not here to embarrass you, but to help you producing an internationally useful deliverable. A free common readability, interest, acceptability QA. If you want your words not to be twisted (what they are not, cf. below) make sure I cannot twist them. Because millions will twist them otherwise. > To be perfectly clear: > - the charter is not up for debate until we complete our work This is what I understand, and this is what I wait for. > - the charter imposes specific requirements on what we deliver True. And I think that some of these requirements cannot be delivered with the current doctrine of the draft. The most obvious one is its simplicity and clarity. It is likely that a 140000 characters text is more complex than a 25000 one. I looked very carefully (but I may have missed them?) for an Internet context definition of the terms used in the document such as "language", "script", "region", "variant" detailing their underlying concepts. The charter says "It is also expected to provide mechanisms to support the evolution of the underlying ISO standards": each time I have alluded to this consistency, to this evolution, to its rules, to its expected near terms achievements, etc. this has been labeled as "out of context", etc. etc. All of them are ruled by ISO 11179 you also ruled as out of context. > - we need to ensure that what we produces addresses all the > mandatory requirements imposed by our charter Right. This is why I patiently wait for this group to achieve its current work, then identifies the mandatory requirements imposed by the charter, then verifies if these requirements are satisfied. I only suggest that we could have saved a lot of time in identifying the mandatory requirements first, because the issue is complex and it is unlikely that anyone can come up with a good response without this preparatory identification. This is why myself, before venturing in writing a Draft, I want to wait for the outcomes of this common identification. To be surer I read it correctly. >If you read anything more into my use of the phrase "thorny questions" on >April 7, you are mistaken. You have been corrected on this point repeatedly, >but have proven incorrigible. I do not read anything more, and I fully agree with your use of the term "thorny". You are so wary because I just see the proposed draft cannot fly in the real world, that you imagine too much. Please stop inventing a supposed second, third or whatever degree in my mails. When I read something in RFCs and in the Charter about common sense issues and I see this WG painstakingly wanting to standardise a patch, what do you want me to do? To be disloyal? to keep real world considerations outside of the WG as most do? To leave you produce another "IDN solution"? I certainly have no problem with that! >... > > I do not really care as I have no dispute with you (except when you talk of > > "end users") but can you please quote the URL of this "insult" ? >... >http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02372.html >is a recent example of what I would consider an insulting post. I read and reread and reread that text to try to find what can be insulting in a meeting report, which lists decisions taken by an independent team. They illustrate the way an internet experimented and multinational/multilingual may receive your positions. NB1. In reading and rereading I found a self correcting typo, I apologise for (is this the insult?). Addison's "troll" had been read as "droll". I corrected that, told them that Addison mail did _not_ change his text which was what was only to be considered, and thanked them to accept it. NB2. the question was to Peter. Otherwise, I invited you all for a drink. I know this is a huge risk of bias for the work of this WG. But I do not think it is insulting? I just wait for the announced day this WG will start working on the identification of its Charter requirements. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 10:06:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlSLw-0000m5-Kf; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:06:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlSLv-0000lq-4y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:06:47 -0400 Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13728 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050623140615.RDFI19267.mta10.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:06:15 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c577fc$a9aedb40$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050622160623.LAHX15546.mta1.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:05:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > CY and GE as Western Asia are somewhat dubious. Perhaps, but we are not in the business of correcting the UN classifications, and in any case the registry does not use them. It simply provides subtags like 145 for "Western Asia," and leaves open the question of what that means. > The most > useful macro-code is es-419, otherwise I'd propose to delete > the macro-region codes, who on earth needs 001 ? > > P.S., okay, tlh-001, because most of tlh would be elsewhere. Mark Davis once suggested a possible use case for 001: to distinguish a language variety "suitable for worldwide use" from one whose regional scope was unspecified. We don't want to get into the business of picking and choosing the region codes we happen to like and discarding the rest. The only case where we do anything like this, and I believe it is completely justified, is in excluding the entire category of codes for "selected economic and other groupings," on the basis that they have no conceivable relation to language usage. As Addison characterized it once, "English for the 10 poorest nations." -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 10:24:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlScz-0004M3-Nu; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:24:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlScy-0004Lq-NS for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:24:24 -0400 Received: from mta13.adelphia.net (mta13.adelphia.net [68.168.78.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16209 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050623142352.OYIB14360.mta13.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:23:52 -0400 Message-ID: <002c01c577ff$1e6309a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050623083546.UGTA24938.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:23:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is this: > (1) What is the value of deleting UN M.49 codes? It's not actually being "deleted," despite the subject line of this thread. I'm proposing that it be "non-added" to the registry on the basis that it is not current as of Date B, and can be safely "non-added" because it has never been allowable in language tags. Alternatively, we could try to gather a list of all numeric region codes that UNSD has defined in the past and subsequently withdrawn. This would be difficult because they don't maintain a change-history page on the macro codes. But there wouldn't be any difference between such a code, withdrawn 10 years ago when their classifications were different (for whatever reason), and 062. > (2) If there is no particular benefit dervied from deletions, why > bother? The benefit I see in not including 062 in this case is to be consistent, and not to admit some withdrawn codes that we happen to know about while not also admitting others we can't. > (3) If we delete one, and, in the future, someone discovers they need > it, how will it be restored? Again, I don't think of it as being "restored" if it was not in the initial registry to begin with. Suppose I need a macrogeographical code for Northern and Western Europe together (the UN distinction might seem a bit arbitrary). I can't register one, but what if UNSD had had such a code many years ago? Would we consider that a matter of "restoring" a deleted code? > (4) If a mechanism to handle (3) is in place, then why don't we simply > start with an empty list, rather than fretting over these cases one- > by-one? There's only one case I can think of. UN withdrew one macro code, 062, before the initial LTRU registry was approved. It's never been valid in language tags, so we don't have to preserve it for backward compatibility. If UN ever does this again, say by splitting Northern Europe into "Scandinavian" and "non-Scandinavian" parts, the old code 154 would still be retained in the registry because it was once valid in tags. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 10:29:21 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlShl-0005iR-Ci; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:29:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlShk-0005iM-Ed for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:29:20 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16750 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050623142848.GKQJ29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:28:48 -0400 Message-ID: <003101c577ff$d145b720$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050623083546.UGTA24938.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:28:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > They're not deleted in the tag registry, once in (reflecting > the "valid at date-B" state), forever in. If they'd delete > e.g. 419 after date-B it won't affect valid es-419 tags. > > Many possible reasons why they might want to reorganize their > macro-regions, as we have seen for the old 003, 062, and 830. Exactly. But I don't propose future deletion of subtags that have been valid in RFC 3066bis language tags in the past. >> (2) If there is no particular benefit dervied from deletions, >> why bother? > > Because the draft says so. Nobody is interested in obsolete > UN macro-region numbers for say the former SU excl. EE/LT/LV, > we even have a (deprecated) SU for those who think to need it. Deprecated subtags like SU aren't there so that people can generate them today, for new content. They're there so that tags for existing content don't suddenly become invalid. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 12:14:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlUKs-0003sU-SK; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:13:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlUKq-0003rx-CJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:13:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29264 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlUj9-0003t7-9E for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:38:56 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:13:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:13:29 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17BD5@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Thread-Index: AcV3zlzBGspAk1LwSJCum7IZD1a5cAANlRew From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Martin Duerst" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2005 16:13:30.0235 (UTC) FILETIME=[7ECFCCB0:01C5780E] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. I've thought about this some more... I've done the following as a result: 1. I simplified the text in the introduction with more reliance on the = word "tag". 2. I moved the definition of language tags from Section 4.2 (meaning) to = act as an introduction to the language tag in Section 2 (just before = Section 2.1). Section 4.2 has been slightly reorganized as a result (the = "meaning" material was moved ahead of the prefix relationship material). 3. Following Ira's note, I have added more structure and some gentle = word tugging to Section 2.1.1 (length considerations) and fixed the = pedantic "divided" as noted by Martin. There are now two subtags for = that section ("Assigning Buffer Limitations" and "Truncation of Language = Tags") 4. I changed to use the symrefs=3D'yes' processing instruction. = References should now be somewhat cleaner. Results on-line at inter-locale. If no objections result, I'll post an = official draft-06 today. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > Sent: 2005?6?23? 1:31 > To: Addison Phillips; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) >=20 > Sorry for the delay. Here are some replies. The rest is fine with me. >=20 > At 12:46 05/06/21, Addison Phillips wrote: > >Some notes below. > > > >Addison > > > >Addison P. Phillips > >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > >Internationalization is not a feature. > >It is an architecture. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On > >> Behalf Of Martin Duerst > >> Sent: 2005?6?20? 18:21 > >> To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, = BUT) > >> > >> At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: > >> >Hi - > >> > > >> >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 regarding = whether > >> >a conformant implementation can impose length constraints and = what > >> >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a "hum" from the > group: > >> > > >> >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are reflected in > >> = >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? > >> > > >> >As you may recall from the discussion, points of concern = included > >> >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > >> >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the underlying = rationale > >> >was sufficiently clear. > >> > >> Overall, I'm quite satisfied. > >> > >> But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: > >> (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless > >> somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). >=20 >=20 > >> -05.txt says: > >> and such > >> documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any longer = tags > (for > >> example, whether an error value is generated or the language = tag > is > >> truncated). > >> I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a > 'whether' > >> sentence. Maybe: > >> and such > >> documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for > >> example, whether an error value is generated or the language = tag > is > >> truncated). > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >That's a no-op change, if there ever was one. It's good because it = drops > >the rather convoluted "disposition" in favor of the more Anglo-Saxon > >phrasing you suggest. I'll make this change. >=20 > First time somebody has called a proposal of mine "Anglo-Saxon = phrasing". > Delighted to hear that! >=20 > >> -05.txt says: > >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be > divided > >> or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with = the > >> "-" character). > >> please at least reword to: > >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be > divided > >> or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag ending with = the > >> "-" character). > >> Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, formed) here. > Wouldn't > >> the later just be enough? > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >Divided is, to be sure, a special case of invalid. But a divided = subtag > >might be valid per the ABNF--or even the registry. It makes sense to > call > >out the special case of not chopping mid-tag. >=20 > "not chopping mid-tag" is much easier to understand (but maybe not yet > as formal as the rest of the draft) than "divided". >=20 > >> An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks about = language > >> identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single time in = that > >> section. Please add something at the end of section 1 saying that > >> this document defines a language tag that is designed to serve as > >> a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem 'identif...' > >> just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, as done in > >> the title. > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >This text is more-or-less inherited. Must we remove all vestiges of > >Harold's authorship? >=20 > Of course not. But if that's from RFC 3066, then I have to apologise > to Harald that I didn't comment on that earlier. >=20 > >But I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out that a > >tag is an identifier... :-) > >> > >> Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there are = subsections, > >> good style requires that almost everything (except a relatively = short > >> intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at least two of = them. > >> The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and the length > >> stuff 2.1.2. > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >No. Section 2 has plenty of structure. >=20 > Section 2 as such has enough structure. The problem is with Section = 2.1. > Please fix. >=20 > >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. >=20 > >> References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. Please = make > this > >> either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or > something > >> like RFC 2331 [23]. > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to xml2rfc. = W3C > >Specifications are much cleaner. >=20 > I got that problems solved for IRIs (RFC 3987). The source is one > click away from http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit. >=20 > >> I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile makes a good > example. > >> Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect zh-Latn > rather > >> than > >> zh-Hant. > >[Addison Phillips] > > > >This example was taken from a particular thread "early" on in this = WG's > >life. Since it is a private use tag, any sort of illogical garbage = might > >exist. That said, "zh-latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile" would > actually > >make some sense, wouldn't it? >=20 > Fine with me. >=20 >=20 > Regards, Martin. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 12:39:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlUjK-0002yS-Bf; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:39:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlUjI-0002yI-Tc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:39:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02223 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlV7c-0005JM-LZ for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:04:15 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5NGcgFL007695; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:38:57 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , Martin Duerst , Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:38:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4e5f67c5e230eddf754446d1a2201a4 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Addison, Well...the new subsections don't even show in the Table of Contents (because they're at the fourth level). What I'd like to see (details of text aside) is: - A numbered section in the Table of Contents named something like 'Tag Length Conformance Requirements' (not 'Assigning...') - That old broken up, because it still buries the key conformance requirement of the whole spec in obscurity. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:13 PM > To: Martin Duerst; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) > > > > >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. > > I've thought about this some more... > > I've done the following as a result: > > 1. I simplified the text in the introduction with more > reliance on the word "tag". > > 2. I moved the definition of language tags from Section 4.2 > (meaning) to act as an introduction to the language tag in > Section 2 (just before Section 2.1). Section 4.2 has been > slightly reorganized as a result (the "meaning" material was > moved ahead of the prefix relationship material). > > 3. Following Ira's note, I have added more structure and some > gentle word tugging to Section 2.1.1 (length considerations) > and fixed the pedantic "divided" as noted by Martin. There > are now two subtags for that section ("Assigning Buffer > Limitations" and "Truncation of Language Tags") > > 4. I changed to use the symrefs='yes' processing instruction. > References should now be somewhat cleaner. > > Results on-line at inter-locale. If no objections result, > I'll post an official draft-06 today. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > > Sent: 2005?6?23? 1:31 > > To: Addison Phillips; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > (yes, BUT) > > > > Sorry for the delay. Here are some replies. The rest is > fine with me. > > > > At 12:46 05/06/21, Addison Phillips wrote: > > >Some notes below. > > > > > >Addison > > > > > >Addison P. Phillips > > >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > > >Internationalization is not a feature. > > >It is an architecture. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > > On > > >> Behalf Of Martin Duerst > > >> Sent: 2005?6?20? 18:21 > > >> To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft > -05? (yes, BUT) > > >> > > >> At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > >> >Hi - > > >> > > > >> >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 > regarding whether > > >> >a conformant implementation can impose length > constraints and what > > >> >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a > "hum" from the > > group: > > >> > > > >> >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are > reflected in > > >> > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt ? > > >> > > > >> >As you may recall from the discussion, points of > concern included > > >> >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > > >> >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the > underlying rationale > > >> >was sufficiently clear. > > >> > > >> Overall, I'm quite satisfied. > > >> > > >> But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: > > >> (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless > > >> somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). > > > > > > >> -05.txt says: > > >> and such > > >> documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any > longer tags > > (for > > >> example, whether an error value is generated or the > language tag > > is > > >> truncated). > > >> I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a > > 'whether' > > >> sentence. Maybe: > > >> and such > > >> documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer > tags (for > > >> example, whether an error value is generated or the > language tag > > is > > >> truncated). > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > >That's a no-op change, if there ever was one. It's good > because it drops > > >the rather convoluted "disposition" in favor of the more > Anglo-Saxon > > >phrasing you suggest. I'll make this change. > > > > First time somebody has called a proposal of mine > "Anglo-Saxon phrasing". > > Delighted to hear that! > > > > >> -05.txt says: > > >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be > > divided > > >> or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one > ending with the > > >> "-" character). > > >> please at least reword to: > > >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to be > > divided > > >> or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag > ending with the > > >> "-" character). > > >> Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, > formed) here. > > Wouldn't > > >> the later just be enough? > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > >Divided is, to be sure, a special case of invalid. But a > divided subtag > > >might be valid per the ABNF--or even the registry. It > makes sense to > > call > > >out the special case of not chopping mid-tag. > > > > "not chopping mid-tag" is much easier to understand (but > maybe not yet > > as formal as the rest of the draft) than "divided". > > > > >> An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks > about language > > >> identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single > time in that > > >> section. Please add something at the end of section 1 > saying that > > >> this document defines a language tag that is designed > to serve as > > >> a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem 'identif...' > > >> just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, > as done in > > >> the title. > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > >This text is more-or-less inherited. Must we remove all > vestiges of > > >Harold's authorship? > > > > Of course not. But if that's from RFC 3066, then I have to apologise > > to Harald that I didn't comment on that earlier. > > > > >But I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out that a > > >tag is an identifier... :-) > > >> > > >> Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there > are subsections, > > >> good style requires that almost everything (except a > relatively short > > >> intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at > least two of them. > > >> The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and > the length > > >> stuff 2.1.2. > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > >No. Section 2 has plenty of structure. > > > > Section 2 as such has enough structure. The problem is with > Section 2.1. > > Please fix. > > > > >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. > > > > >> References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. > Please make > > this > > >> either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or > > something > > >> like RFC 2331 [23]. > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > >I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to > xml2rfc. W3C > > >Specifications are much cleaner. > > > > I got that problems solved for IRIs (RFC 3987). The source is one > > click away from http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit. > > > > >> I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile > makes a good > > example. > > >> Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect zh-Latn > > rather > > >> than > > >> zh-Hant. > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > >This example was taken from a particular thread "early" > on in this WG's > > >life. Since it is a private use tag, any sort of > illogical garbage might > > >exist. That said, "zh-latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile" would > > actually > > >make some sense, wouldn't it? > > > > Fine with me. > > > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 12:52:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlUwR-0005RM-Et; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlUwP-0005N4-D3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03614 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlVKi-00064X-UA for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:17:45 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:52:20 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] massaging and moving 'length considerations' (#944) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:52:19 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17C47@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] massaging and moving 'length considerations' (#944) Thread-Index: AcV4EhvCn7w/UA6nSNyEj+up+c197wAACYqA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "Martin Duerst" , "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2005 16:52:20.0531 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBC6C030:01C57813] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ba9b8496764663b12c333825fbf6b3d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Some comments below. Basically, I think that length considerations is in = the wrong section out of a misguided desire to "feature" this particular = issue. Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] > Sent: 2005?6?23? 9:39 > To: Addison Phillips; Martin Duerst; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, BUT) >=20 > Hi Addison, >=20 > Well...the new subsections don't even show in the Table of Contents > (because they're at the fourth level). [Addison Phillips]=20 Yes. There are limits to what we can do on that level, although probably = I can make the TOC reflect additional sectional granularity. The most = logical thing, actually, would be to move this sub-section to where it = logically belongs in the document (part of Section 4, which is about = formation and processing of language tags---it is out of place in the = section on syntax, IMHO). >=20 > What I'd like to see (details of text aside) is: > - A numbered section in the Table of Contents named something like > 'Tag Length Conformance Requirements' (not 'Assigning...') [Addison Phillips]=20 I disagree. Nothing else is titled this way in the whole document. = Calling out this particular issue (already a facet of language tags, = please note) is not instructive, I feel. After all, the document must be = read and understood and length limitations do not exist in a vacuum. > - That old broken up, because it still buries the > key conformance requirement of the whole spec in obscurity. [Addison Phillips]=20 I disagree: it is not "in obscurity". It is in a logical progression of = text. If you read this section you will see the requirements and, = because they are in context, understand why they are there. To call them out, I could turn them into bullet points in a list. Would = that make them sufficiently visible? >=20 > Cheers, > - Ira >=20 >=20 > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:13 PM > > To: Martin Duerst; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? (yes, = BUT) > > > > > > > >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. > > > > I've thought about this some more... > > > > I've done the following as a result: > > > > 1. I simplified the text in the introduction with more > > reliance on the word "tag". > > > > 2. I moved the definition of language tags from Section 4.2 > > (meaning) to act as an introduction to the language tag in > > Section 2 (just before Section 2.1). Section 4.2 has been > > slightly reorganized as a result (the "meaning" material was > > moved ahead of the prefix relationship material). > > > > 3. Following Ira's note, I have added more structure and some > > gentle word tugging to Section 2.1.1 (length considerations) > > and fixed the pedantic "divided" as noted by Martin. There > > are now two subtags for that section ("Assigning Buffer > > Limitations" and "Truncation of Language Tags") > > > > 4. I changed to use the symrefs=3D'yes' processing instruction. > > References should now be somewhat cleaner. > > > > Results on-line at inter-locale. If no objections result, > > I'll post an official draft-06 today. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison P. Phillips > > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Martin Duerst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] > > > Sent: 2005?6?23? 1:31 > > > To: Addison Phillips; Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft -05? > > (yes, BUT) > > > > > > Sorry for the delay. Here are some replies. The rest is > > fine with me. > > > > > > At 12:46 05/06/21, Addison Phillips wrote: > > > >Some notes below. > > > > > > > >Addison > > > > > > > >Addison P. Phillips > > > >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > > >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > > > > > >Internationalization is not a feature. > > > >It is an architecture. > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > > > On > > > >> Behalf Of Martin Duerst > > > >> Sent: 2005?6?20? 18:21 > > > >> To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > > >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can we live with #944 as in draft > > -05? (yes, BUT) > > > >> > > > >> At 08:38 05/06/21, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > >> >Hi - > > > >> > > > > >> >I'd like to see whether we can close issue #944 > > regarding whether > > > >> >a conformant implementation can impose length > > constraints and what > > > >> >those constraints might be. So I'd like to get a > > "hum" from the > > > group: > > > >> > > > > >> >Can you live with the resolution of this issue are > > reflected in > > > >> > > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05.txt = ? > > > >> > > > > >> >As you may recall from the discussion, points of > > concern included > > > >> >whether the MUSTs and SHOULDs made sense, whether the > > > >> >lengths given were meaningful, and whether the > > underlying rationale > > > >> >was sufficiently clear. > > > >> > > > >> Overall, I'm quite satisfied. > > > >> > > > >> But here are a few, mostly editorial, nits: > > > >> (for Randy: I think all these can be lumped together unless > > > >> somebody wants to have one of them addressed specifically). > > > > > > > > > >> -05.txt says: > > > >> and such > > > >> documentation SHOULD include the disposition of any > > longer tags > > > (for > > > >> example, whether an error value is generated or the > > language tag > > > is > > > >> truncated). > > > >> I don't like the use of a noun that then gets expanded into a > > > 'whether' > > > >> sentence. Maybe: > > > >> and such > > > >> documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer > > tags (for > > > >> example, whether an error value is generated or the > > language tag > > > is > > > >> truncated). > > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > > > >That's a no-op change, if there ever was one. It's good > > because it drops > > > >the rather convoluted "disposition" in favor of the more > > Anglo-Saxon > > > >phrasing you suggest. I'll make this change. > > > > > > First time somebody has called a proposal of mine > > "Anglo-Saxon phrasing". > > > Delighted to hear that! > > > > > > >> -05.txt says: > > > >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to = be > > > divided > > > >> or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one > > ending with the > > > >> "-" character). > > > >> please at least reword to: > > > >> If truncation is permitted it MUST NOT permit a subtag to = be > > > divided > > > >> or an invalid tag to be formed (for example, a tag > > ending with the > > > >> "-" character). > > > >> Also, I'm not sure why we need two things (divided, > > formed) here. > > > Wouldn't > > > >> the later just be enough? > > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > > > >Divided is, to be sure, a special case of invalid. But a > > divided subtag > > > >might be valid per the ABNF--or even the registry. It > > makes sense to > > > call > > > >out the special case of not chopping mid-tag. > > > > > > "not chopping mid-tag" is much easier to understand (but > > maybe not yet > > > as formal as the rest of the draft) than "divided". > > > > > > >> An even more serious problem is that section 1 speaks > > about language > > > >> identifiers, and the word 'tag' doesn't appear a single > > time in that > > > >> section. Please add something at the end of section 1 > > saying that > > > >> this document defines a language tag that is designed > > to serve as > > > >> a language identifier. Or even better, use the stem = 'identif...' > > > >> just for the purpose, and the word 'tag' for the thing, > > as done in > > > >> the title. > > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > > > >This text is more-or-less inherited. Must we remove all > > vestiges of > > > >Harold's authorship? > > > > > > Of course not. But if that's from RFC 3066, then I have to = apologise > > > to Harald that I didn't comment on that earlier. > > > > > > >But I'll be sufficiently creative to spell out that a > > > >tag is an identifier... :-) > > > >> > > > >> Also, please give Section 2.1 more structure. If there > > are subsections, > > > >> good style requires that almost everything (except a > > relatively short > > > >> intro piece) is a subsection, and that there are at > > least two of them. > > > >> The easiest thing to do is to make the ABNF 2.1.1, and > > the length > > > >> stuff 2.1.2. > > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > > > >No. Section 2 has plenty of structure. > > > > > > Section 2 as such has enough structure. The problem is with > > Section 2.1. > > > Please fix. > > > > > > >> Please add a short intro paragraph to Chapter 2. > > > > > > >> References such as [RFC 2231] [23] look extremely ugly. > > Please make > > > this > > > >> either [RFC 2231] or [RFC2231] only (my strong preference) or > > > something > > > >> like RFC 2331 [23]. > > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > > > >I'll look into it. I have developed a strong aversion to > > xml2rfc. W3C > > > >Specifications are much cleaner. > > > > > > I got that problems solved for IRIs (RFC 3987). The source is one > > > click away from http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit. > > > > > > >> I'm not sure zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile > > makes a good > > > example. > > > >> Wade-Giles is a romanization, one would therefore expect = zh-Latn > > > rather > > > >> than > > > >> zh-Hant. > > > >[Addison Phillips] > > > > > > > >This example was taken from a particular thread "early" > > on in this WG's > > > >life. Since it is a private use tag, any sort of > > illogical garbage might > > > >exist. That said, "zh-latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile" = would > > > actually > > > >make some sense, wouldn't it? > > > > > > Fine with me. > > > > > > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 15:38:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlXWf-0001h5-Eh; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:38:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlXWd-0001gt-IZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:38:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19969 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlXuy-0005wk-Cp for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:03:21 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:37:53 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:37:52 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: additional changes... Thread-Index: AcV4KwvSRM33d+gMQwyexqYqpdwTFA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2005 19:37:53.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C094C70:01C5782B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] additional changes... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1211586927==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1211586927== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SW4gbWFraW5nIHRoZSBjaGFuZ2VzIHByb3Bvc2VkIGJ5IElyYSAob3IgbXlzZWxmLCBpbiByZXNw b25zZSB0byBJcmEpLCBJIGFsc28gbWFkZSBtaW5vciBtb2RpZmljYXRpb25zIHRvIHRoZSBzZWN0 aW9uIG9uIGNob2ljZSBvZiBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWcgKG1vdmluZyBhIHNtYWxsIGFtb3VudCBvZiBt YXRlcmlhbCB0aGVyZSBmcm9tIGxlbmd0aCBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucykuDQoNCkZpbmFsbHksIEkg YWRkZWQgYSBzaG9ydCBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBmb3IgZWFjaCBzdWJ0YWcgdHlwZSBpbiB0aGUgc2Vj dGlvbiBvbiBzeW50YXgsIGFzIHBvaW50ZWQgb3V0IGluIGEgcmVjZW50IHRocmVhZC4gVGhlc2Ug cHJvYmFibHkgYmVhciBhIGxvb2sgYXMgaW5ub3ZhdGlvbnMuDQoNCkFsbCBvZiB0aGVzZSBhcmUg bm93IHBvc3RlZCBvbiB0aGUgaW50ZXItbG9jYWxlIHNpdGU6DQoNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaW50ZXIt bG9jYWxlLmNvbS9JRC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtcmVnaXN0cnktMDYuaHRtbA0KaHR0cDovL3d3 dy5pbnRlci1sb2NhbGUuY29tL0lEL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtbHRydS1yZWdpc3RyeS0wNi50eHQNCg0K QW55IG1vcmUgY29tbWVudHM/DQoNCkJlc3QgUmVnYXJkcywNCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29u IFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCmh0 dHA6Ly93d3cucXVlc3QuY29tDQoNCkNoYWlyLCBXM0MgSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gQ29y ZSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9JbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsDQoNCkludGVy bmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUu IA0KDQo= --===============1211586927== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1211586927==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 16:33:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlYOR-0008AE-1M; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:33:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlYOP-00089i-UF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:33:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA25611 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlYmm-0001IA-Mj for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:58:58 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5NKXSLL012669; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:33:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:33:28 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Addison Phillips Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... Message-ID: <20050623203328.GC220@NYCMJCOWA2> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips scripsit: > Finally, I added a short description for each subtag type in the > section on syntax, as pointed out in a recent thread. These probably > bear a look as innovations. A very minor nit. Bullet point 4 in section 2.2.2 currently reads: Extended language subtags will not be registered except by revision of this document. I suggest that "by" be changed to "pursuant to" or "as a consequence of", to avoid the perception that each such subtag will require a revision of the document. -- A witness cannot give evidence of his John Cowan age unless he can remember being born. jcowan@reutershealth.com --Judge Blagden http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 16:44:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlYYx-00059M-Py; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:44:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlYYv-00057x-Pv for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:44:38 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29776 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlYRY-0007r7-85 for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:37:00 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:37:00 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:37:00 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:42:37 +0200 Organization: Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42BB1EBD.5114@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: additional changes... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Any more comments? Looking at it only for some minutes, I still like it. The new "symrefs" are much better, you even went to the trouble of creating nice anchors like RFC2234bis etc. in explicitly defined references (instead of using the bibxml anchor). Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 16:54:44 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlYii-0006oV-Iy; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:54:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlYiV-0006ji-Lr for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:54:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00642 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlYw4-00040u-PT for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:08:34 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:43:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] additional changes... Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:43:02 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17EE5@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] additional changes... Thread-Index: AcV4MtuNg8Yw/UYjRCeYqskEYtGu8gAASMbQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John.Cowan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2005 20:43:03.0338 (UTC) FILETIME=[26BB78A0:01C57834] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Good idea. I modified thusly (replacing bullets 3 and 4 with this text): Extended language subtags MUST NOT be registered or used to form = language tags. Their syntax is described here so that implementations = can be compatible with any future revision of this document which does = provide for their registration. Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: John.Cowan [mailto:jcowan@reutershealth.com] > Sent: 2005?6?23? 13:33 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... >=20 > Addison Phillips scripsit: >=20 > > Finally, I added a short description for each subtag type in the > > section on syntax, as pointed out in a recent thread. These probably > > bear a look as innovations. >=20 > A very minor nit. Bullet point 4 in section 2.2.2 currently reads: >=20 > Extended language subtags will not be registered except by > revision of this document. >=20 > I suggest that "by" be changed to "pursuant to" or "as a consequence = of", > to avoid the perception that each such subtag will require a revision = of > the > document. >=20 > -- > A witness cannot give evidence of his John Cowan > age unless he can remember being born. = jcowan@reutershealth.com > --Judge Blagden = http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 17:26:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlZDB-0005TK-8U; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:26:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlZD9-0005T9-UP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:26:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04375 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlZbX-0006gV-SS for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:51:25 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DlZD0-0005Bu-DJ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:26:02 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050623224245.046f8e80@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:24:27 +0200 To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.c om> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 21:37 23/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: >Finally, I added a short description for each subtag type in the section >on syntax, as pointed out in a recent thread. These probably bear a look >as innovations. Certainly a good thing. But I am afraid this does not address the lack of definition of what all this is about and what is a langtag. Let me try to clarifiy in using ISO 3166. ISO 3166 is seven different ways to code the name of the countries. You use the ISO 3166 for something else (you name it a region and you mix M.49). The same as Jon Postel used it to designated ccTLDs. You must define somewhere what you are defining with that code. For example, nothing could prevent us in this WG to call one another by our organisation's name. I would call you Quest. etc. But if we do not define it, no one will know if I refer to you or to your organisation or to its boss, etc. If I am correct (but I did not look in detail), ISO 3166 codes define the name of the countries. ISO 639-3 are just codes and autonyms or english names are attached to them. ISO15924 is a list and I am not sure anyone knows what a script can exactly be (not clear in the text and in Michael's references to it: usually discussed as a reference to the Unicode script.txt file). All this is not ISO 11179 conformant because a metamodel must be homogenous and ... clear. ISO 639-4 tries to relate them. This would be a good thing. But we do not know yet if it will, and how. Why is important? Because this permits to describe what a langtag is about. Charter says that the Draft must follow ISO. If you define something which looks homogenous (you did not do it yet, but you certainly could), but which is not in tune with ISO we will have sometimes, somewhere a conflict. This may seem remote and unimportant to you today. The same as it was remote and unimportant for Harald to define scripts. Sometimes this will be a big conflict. All the more than you do not protect yourself in the introduction in specifying a restricted/defined scope. And want to be a BCP 47. One of the major discrepancy you face is about "script", because you are specifying "langtag" for a multimedia system and use two general attributes (languages and country) and a specialised one (script) making yourself incompatible with all the non written modes. To correct that it is enough to coin an open description of "script" as the descriptor of the mode, using ISO 15924 when it is a written mode. All this is not complex, but must be done precisely. In an ISO consistent way, because the charter says so. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 23 18:21:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dla58-0007UV-7y; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:21:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dla57-0007TW-Kn for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:21:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09196 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlaTU-0000hr-TA for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:47:11 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:21:44 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:21:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] additional changes... Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:21:43 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] additional changes... Thread-Index: AcV4Ok2gQVZk+riARNC25/g2bS0AxgABU03g From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2005 22:21:44.0643 (UTC) FILETIME=[F01AE930:01C57841] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of r&d > afrac > If I am correct (but I did not look in detail), ISO 3166 codes define the > name of the countries. Need to be careful here: an ISO standard cannot normatively specify what a country shall be called. At best, it can normatively specify how a country shall be referred to in conformant implementations of that standard. In fact, I suspect that all that ISO 3166 really intends to do is to document the political entity/geography region denoted by an alpha-2 identifier (or one of the others provided) using English and French names for those countries. > ISO 639-3 are just codes and autonyms or english > names are attached to them. ISO15924 is a list and I am not sure anyone > knows what a script can exactly be (not clear in the text and in Michael's > references to it: usually discussed as a reference to the Unicode > script.txt file). All this is not ISO 11179 conformant because a metamodel > must be homogenous and ... clear. To the extent that I've looked at ISO 11179, I haven't come across any conformance criteria. It defines a conceptual model for creating metadata registries, and provides some guidelines for handling certain tasks within a metadata registry. The langtag registry* implements some aspects of the ISO 11179 model, though not all; and I suspect that the langtag registry can be fully analyzed in terms of the ISO 11179. Unless there are conformance requirements stated somewhere, however, I don't think anyone can say that the langtag registry is or isn't conformant. (If there were something in the langtag registry that went beyond and so could not be analyzed in terms of the ISO 11179 model, then I think one might be able to claim some non-conformance. I don't know if that actually occurs in this case, though.) * Ditto wrt ISO 639, ISO 3166 and ISO 15924. > One of the major discrepancy you face is about "script", because you are > specifying "langtag" for a multimedia system and use two general attributes > (languages and country) and a specialised one (script) making yourself > incompatible with all the non written modes. As Jefsey has acknowledged in the past, the draft does not create any incompatibility with non-written content: it can be applied equally well to written and non-written content alike. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 06:46:04 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DllhE-00063B-6n; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:46:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DllhC-000636-TZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:46:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA26366 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlm5i-0002O8-Qi for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:11:23 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dllh6-0003j4-I2; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:45:57 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050624094307.03ee4eb0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:22:44 +0200 To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" From: r&d afrac Subject: RE: [Ltru] additional changes... In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 88b11fc64c1bfdb4425294ef5374ca07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA26366 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 00:21 24/06/2005, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org= ] >On Behalf Of r&d > > afrac > > If I am correct (but I did not look in detail), ISO 3166 codes define >the > > name of the countries. > >Need to be careful here: an ISO standard cannot normatively specify what >a country shall be called. Glad we agree. >At best, it can normatively specify how a >country shall be referred to in conformant implementations of that >standard. In fact, I suspect that all that ISO 3166 really intends to do >is to document the political entity/geography region denoted by an >alpha-2 identifier (or one of the others provided) using English and >French names for those countries. No. It does not even do that. It just codifies the English and French nam= es. If you wish to know more I suggest you discuss this with G=E9rard Lang to= =20 have it from the horse's mouth. You know his e-mail. I am sure he will be= =20 glad explaining you this so you may document this WG in your own words. > > ISO 639-3 are just codes and autonyms or english > > names are attached to them. ISO15924 is a list and I am not sure >anyone > > knows what a script can exactly be (not clear in the text and in >Michael's > > references to it: usually discussed as a reference to the Unicode > > script.txt file). All this is not ISO 11179 conformant because a >metamodel > > must be homogenous and ... clear. > >To the extent that I've looked at ISO 11179, I haven't come across any >conformance criteria. It defines a conceptual model for creating >metadata registries, and provides some guidelines for handling certain >tasks within a metadata registry. The langtag registry* implements some >aspects of the ISO 11179 model, though not all; and I suspect that the >langtag registry can be fully analyzed in terms of the ISO 11179. Unless >there are conformance requirements stated somewhere, however, I don't >think anyone can say that the langtag registry is or isn't conformant. >(If there were something in the langtag registry that went beyond and so >could not be analyzed in terms of the ISO 11179 model, then I think one >might be able to claim some non-conformance. I don't know if that >actually occurs in this case, though.) My point is that the Draft could easily be made conformant to ISO 11179 i= n=20 documenting what it wants to document provided that the resulting metamod= el=20 is homogenous (no layer violation). This means that you cannot mix concep= ts=20 and metaconcept as I think we do. Where it would not be ISO 11179=20 conformant would be in assimilating ISO concepts or metaconcept with=20 different IETF concept and metaconcepts. I am not ISO 11179 expert and IS= O=20 11179 is not a finished document in the areas of concern to us but we bot= h=20 have ISO 11179 experts (committee members) in our relations and there are= =20 one or two lurking this list. So, you fully make my point in saying "I don't think anyone can say that=20 the langtag is or isn't conformant". - the Charter asks we make sure that the Draft conforms the underlying IS= O=20 standard, so if you don't know you should work on it. - obviously there are many people able to say it does not conforms asnd w= e=20 all know it because ISO 11179 is a very complex thing and in ignoring it=20 the chances we conforms to it probably reach the threshold of the Borel's= =20 law (probability beyong which something cannot happen). - you say that the langtag registry implements "some aspects of the ISO=20 11179 model". Does this means "of the ISO 11179 standard" or "of an ISO=20 Model" what makes an important difference. In any case these aspects shou= ld=20 be documented and the other aspects should at least be listed and=20 explained. This is because their non-support can be understood as a Chart= er=20 disrespect and lead to security problems. Any user believing that the Dra= ft=20 is ISO 11179 conformant, in a part where it is not, will face a trust=20 discontinuity. Unless this is documented. Unfortunately ISO 11179 is not = a=20 decalogue or a check-list of pointg of conformance, it is a complex=20 doctrine and vocabulary. This is why you have two possible ways to corelate the Internet with the=20 ISO system: - either you consider the ISO as underlying what you want to do (this see= ms=20 to be what the charter says) and it calls for still much more unless you=20 document more precisely your scope and the consequences of this limitatio= ns=20 (what I always proposed). - or you document the Internet vision of language based on person to pers= on=20 interintelligibility, as a layer above end to end interoperability, and=20 you think as a network architect, addressing the real world multimedia=20 issues. This should result in a cross network technologies converging=20 clear, simple, stupid, scalable description in a few paragraphs. Then you= =20 build from it a standard support framework. Then you relate that=20 user/reality based network modes to other modes through RFC like the=20 langtag/filter for XML and the protocols which may want to use it. But you cannot stay in between focusing on a single application case.=20 Because, even for that application case, the result will not stand: at so= me=20 stage it will be incompatible with other aspects of reality and you will=20 have to build another interface, and another, etc. until you are stuck. >* Ditto wrt ISO 639, ISO 3166 and ISO 15924. No. I took the example of ISO 3166 because it is the most referred to=20 standard, the clearest in term of what it defines (due to its multiple=20 tables) the oldest too (started in UIT in 1865). And I documented that IS= O=20 639 and ISO 15924 were different and that their correlation with ISO 639=20 and ISO 15924 was precisely a subject under study, within the ISO 11179=20 (and others) framework by TC 37. Why to hide this WG that what it considers is also discussed by the peopl= e=20 in charge of the documents this WG has the charter to respect? Is this=20 because the Draft of this WG is precisely used to document the ISO debate= .=20 Please be clear: there is actually a joint work between ISO and IETF on t= he=20 same issue, for the same result, where you want a convergence. We all want a convergence. We may even agree with your idea that this=20 convergence is based upon your propositions. But we cannot accept that th= is=20 is not transparent and that this is based _only_ on your ideas. All the=20 more when you come and say you don't know if their common glue (ISO 11179= )=20 applies, and Debbie Garside says ISO 639-6 wants to be ISO 11179 conforma= nt=20 and I say they do not match the whole Internet architecture. > > One of the major discrepancy you face is about "script", because you >are > > specifying "langtag" for a multimedia system and use two general >attributes > > (languages and country) and a specialised one (script) making yoursel= f > > incompatible with all the non written modes. > >As Jefsey has acknowledged in the past, the draft does not create any >incompatibility with non-written content: it can be applied equally well >to written and non-written content alike. True. But that I acknowledged that it _can_ only documents that we may=20 reach an agreement, not that it is documented in the Draft :-) But you ar= e=20 most welcome adding it and foreseing the registration procedure. This Dra= ft=20 only refers to ISO 15924. Also, Peter's response denotes a substantial difference in conception whi= ch=20 affects the whole issue. - Peter speaks of "written and non-written content alike". This means tha= t=20 the reference is the content (i.e. the value) - I speak (so is ISO) of mode. This means that the reference is the=20 container (i.e. the concept). This may seem a slight difference but this is the whole issue. This Draft= =20 considers a langtag in a W3C vision, this means based on content. There=20 have been documentation enough that adverse changes in formats would affe= ct=20 huge existing content (forgetting that XML is a young format and that it = is=20 likely than in the coming decades and centuries much more content will be= =20 affected by the langtag). My position, as is ISO and as is to be by nature IETF is on modes, that i= s=20 to say in exchange parlance on protocols. What is considered is the=20 concept, the container. Why? Because the same information (concept) on=20 language, script and region (not to mention the needed information on=20 referent and context I say needed) can be conveyed in many different ways= =20 (values) associated to the content. I will take two to make this clearer: - the Charter says we must use ISO 639, with a mention of ISO 639-3 as an= =20 example. We can understand this in two different ways (Peter can probably= =20 better document as he most probably shared in the writing of the Draft).=20 Either this means that ISO 639-3 is the leading part and that the IETF=20 Draft is to establish the guidelines ISO is establishing in ISO 639-4, or= =20 it means that ISO has already two code versions to document some language= s=20 and will add two more, starting with ISO 639-3 and then ISO 639-6. The=20 charter the means that this WG should not only focus on ISO 639-1 and -2=20 but on new documents starting with ISO 639-3. This and its consequences a= re=20 to be documented in the Draft. - there is no definition of a language given. There is no rule given to=20 associate the language of an exchange to a language code. There is no=20 documentation to say if the language codes are used as values ("this is=20 English") or as concepts ("this is a version of English"). I can associat= e=20 filtering rules which will define the script and language from the conten= t=20 (this is what we do mentally all the time). The problem is that it is not= a=20 commonly accepted authoritative statement we can trust and build=20 applications upon. The is no ISO-English. To be better understood I will take an example: the lang3tag is going to=20 tell me "this is English" and I may have a conflict with my Franglish=20 (Randy fully documented that). I will have a vital security issue if the=20 "English" security alert was expressed an English I do not understand (my= =20 Franglish is usually more extended than Basic English). Example "en-Latn = ->=20 in case of Danger depress key 'D'" and "en-Latn -> in case of Danger hit=20 key 'D'", because 'style' was missing and I did not call Randy's experts,= I=20 am dead. Security consideration due to ISO 11179 disrespect: "English" I=20 took as a value was a concept. Last example, fully documented by this WG. This WG assumes that the=20 difference of positions with me are due to my poor Franglish (cf? Randy)=20 (sorry to refer to me again, but it makes a good example of cooperative=20 international relations, before being confronted to agressive multilingua= l=20 issues of the real life). This common belief makes a dangerous alibi whic= h=20 hides the WG that in most of the cases if I am not "corrigible" it is=20 because I am right, or at least consistent with a general position they=20 refuse to consider. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 06:48:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlljH-0006MA-Nf; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:48:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlljH-0006M4-B4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:48:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA26523 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.28]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlm7m-0002Qa-LF for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:13:31 -0400 Received: (qmail 24477 messnum 5757875 invoked from network[159.134.168.223/159-134-168-223.as1.prp.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Jun 2005 10:47:51 -0000 Received: from 159-134-168-223.as1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (HELO egt.ie) (159.134.168.223) by mail12.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 24477) with SMTP; 24 Jun 2005 10:47:51 -0000 Message-ID: <42BBE42D.A46BD8FA@egt.ie> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:45:01 +0100 From: Marion Gunn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA26523 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Scr=EDobh Peter Constable: >=20 > Need to be careful here: an ISO standard cannot normatively specify wha= t > a country shall be called... Names cited in ISO 639, ISO 3166, ISO 15924 (codes for languages, countries, scripts) are only informative text (to be read as textual additions of varying accuracy in English/French/etc.), which text is NOT to be read as normative (only the codes are normative in ISO). Best, mg --=20 Marion Gunn * EGTeo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an=20 Bh=F3thair, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire. * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 06:57:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dllrq-0008Ev-OL; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:57:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dllrp-0008El-Fh for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:57:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27481 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlmGK-0002uP-P2 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:22:21 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dllrm-0005nK-06; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:56:58 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050624125511.048dcc10@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:56:53 +0200 To: Marion Gunn , Peter Constable From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... In-Reply-To: <42BBE42D.A46BD8FA@egt.ie> References: <42BBE42D.A46BD8FA@egt.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA27481 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 12:45 24/06/2005, Marion Gunn wrote: >Scr=EDobh Peter Constable: > > > > Need to be careful here: an ISO standard cannot normatively specify w= hat > > a country shall be called... > >Names cited in ISO 639, ISO 3166, ISO 15924 (codes for languages, >countries, scripts) are only informative text (to be read as textual >additions of varying accuracy in English/French/etc.), which text is NOT >to be read as normative (only the codes are normative in ISO). Yes! This is why we have to document what they are _used_for_ in our own=20 environment. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 10:14:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlowi-0004ac-LC; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:14:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlowe-0004aP-3J; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:14:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12108; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlpKw-0002wd-VX; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:39:22 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:13:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C578C6.E8979F35" Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:13:35 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE1812D@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV4xuZZyHvzl4JcQiurp8ZXVx6rrA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 14:13:35.0940 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9174040:01C578C6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a25a39108c2a4bcf3afaeb82ef67bd9 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: 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Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------_=_NextPart_001_01C578C6.E8979F35-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 13:03:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlrau-0000g4-6G; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:03:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlrat-0000fz-H3 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:03:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25144 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlrzS-0001hp-2W for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:29:19 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:03:44 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:03:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] additional changes... Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:03:48 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] additional changes... Thread-Index: AcV4qdzJvnX1MX5FS+aECkp+oh08dgANG+DA From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 17:03:44.0411 (UTC) FILETIME=[ADD04EB0:01C578DE] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: r&d afrac [mailto:rd@afrac.org] > My point is that the Draft could easily be made conformant to ISO 11179 No, you miss my point: if ISO 11179 does not define conformance requirements, it is impossible to say "conforms to ISO 11179". > So, you fully make my point in saying "I don't think anyone can say that > the langtag is or isn't conformant". >=20 > - the Charter asks we make sure that the Draft conforms the underlying ISO > standard, so if you don't know you should work on it. ISO 11179 is not and never has been considered one of the "underlying ISO standards" for RFC 3066(bis). Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 13:41:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlsB2-0007LB-Vm; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:41:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlsB2-0007L0-3z for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:41:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27820 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlsZY-0003H3-33 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:06:40 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DlsAn-0005bu-N0; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:41:02 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050624191739.04622b60@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:29:11 +0200 To: "Peter Constable" , "LTRU Working Group" From: r&d afrac Subject: RE: [Ltru] additional changes... In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 19:03 24/06/2005, Peter Constable wrote: > > From: r&d afrac [mailto:rd@afrac.org] > > My point is that the Draft could easily be made conformant to ISO >11179 > >No, you miss my point: if ISO 11179 does not define conformance >requirements, it is impossible to say "conforms to ISO 11179". I will not dispute with you on this. There is no procedure to declare a registry or a model conforms to ISO 11179. As there is no procedure to declare that a text is in French or English. There is a decision by an author to write a text in French or in English. There is an obvious decision by the authors of the Draft not to write in "ISO 11179", there is a declare non-desire for ISO 639-3 and a declare desire by the authors of ISO 639-6. > > So, you fully make my point in saying "I don't think anyone can say >that > > the langtag is or isn't conformant". > > > > - the Charter asks we make sure that the Draft conforms the underlying >ISO > > standard, so if you don't know you should work on it. > >ISO 11179 is not and never has been considered one of the "underlying >ISO standards" for RFC 3066(bis). This is something you will have to document when someone of the IESG cast a glance to ISO 639-4 and ISO 639-6. Because ISO 11179 is what permits to corelate ISO 3166, 639, 15924 .... and to address stability over changes. Take care and have a nice WE. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 14:00:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlsTh-0002FJ-4x; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:00:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlsTd-0002FA-IA for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:00:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29325 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlss5-0003vX-Lk for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:25:53 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5OHxvIY009466; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:00:16 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Addison Phillips'" , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] additional changes... Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:00:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Addison, +1 Very nicely reorganized. I like your section 4 titles and the bullet list of buffer length requirements. Thanks very much, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Addison Phillips > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 3:38 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] additional changes... > > > In making the changes proposed by Ira (or myself, in response > to Ira), I also made minor modifications to the section on > choice of language tag (moving a small amount of material > there from length considerations). > > Finally, I added a short description for each subtag type in > the section on syntax, as pointed out in a recent thread. > These probably bear a look as innovations. > > All of these are now posted on the inter-locale site: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt > > Any more comments? > > Best Regards, > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 15:10:44 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DltZb-0006XO-W4; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:10:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DltZb-0006XJ-3E for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:10:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04992 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlty8-0006X0-Ow for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:36:06 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-100.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.100] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DltZP-0003V5-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:10:31 -0400 Message-ID: <00b701c578f0$e9061020$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050623083546.UGTA24938.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <003101c577ff$d145b720$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:14:12 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Since the registry draft (section 2.2.4 of -06) gives the rules specifying whether a given UN M.49 code may be added to the registry, wouldn't it be sufficient for the purposes of the initial registry to just supply the one such code (419) that is currently needed, leaving requests for the addition of others up to those who find a use for them? This would allow us to sidestep all this discussion of the merits of individual codes on this list, moving it to ietf-languages when our work is approved, where such discussion properly belongs. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 15:20:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DltjX-0000Og-Dg; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:20:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DltjV-0000Ob-Pf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:20:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06288 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlu82-0006qd-Dm for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:46:20 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:20:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB80AE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Thread-Index: AcV48IsQEuzF8VPsTbCfz2TteU9xGQAADPGg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 19:20:36.0386 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC884020:01C578F1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org It would be possible to do so. The question is whether it would be = appropriate to do so. The point of incorporating the various standards = into the registry ab initio is to avoid the need to painstakingly review = all of the potential items later. Notice that there is a review period for the initial registry built into = the registry-draft and this allows for community review. I favor being conservative about the codes we incorporate (on the theory = that ietf-languages is perfectly capable of resolving whether to add any = omissions, but that no one is permitted to remove badly chosen = inclusions), but not to the point of leaving out all of the = macro-regions. On that basis I would: 1. Follow the Date A/Date B rules to create a list of potential = candidates (i.e. what Doug has already done) 2. Remove any that are questionable or controversial. 3. Document in the initial-registry draft which ones those are (that is, = codes that are valid to register but were not initially registered) 4. Let ietf-languages and the process be used to incorporate those few = that are needed from that list (or later assignments) at a later date. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?24? 12:14 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, = delete > 062 >=20 > Hi - >=20 > As a technical contributor... >=20 > Since the registry draft (section 2.2.4 of -06) gives the rules = specifying > whether a given UN M.49 code may be added to the registry, wouldn't > it be sufficient for the purposes of the initial registry to just > supply the one such code (419) that is currently needed, leaving > requests for the addition of others up to those who find a use for > them? This would allow us to sidestep all this discussion of the > merits of individual codes on this list, moving it to ietf-languages > when our work is approved, where such discussion properly belongs. >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 15:38:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlu0H-0002vm-6J; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlu0G-0002ve-5D for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA07711 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DluOq-0007ZF-37 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:03:41 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-100.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.100] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dlu0C-0004HG-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:38:12 -0400 Message-ID: <00f001c578f4$c8444d80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB80AE@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:41:56 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 12:20 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 ... > 1. Follow the Date A/Date B rules to create a list of potential candidates > (i.e. what Doug has already done) > 2. Remove any that are questionable or controversial. > 3. Document in the initial-registry draft which ones those are > (that is, codes that are valid to register but were not initially registered) > 4. Let ietf-languages and the process be used to incorporate those few > that are needed from that list (or later assignments) at a later date. ... This would address my concerns about any so-called "deletions". Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 15:50:39 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DluCF-0005KC-0a; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DluBk-00059w-CQ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08808; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DluaH-0007x3-IT; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:15:29 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DluBd-00056b-J9; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:01 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt Pages : 64 Date : 2005-6-24 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-24150733.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-24150733.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 16:22:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlugu-00051F-8e; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:22:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlugq-0004uR-Fc; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:22:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA20230; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:22:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Received: from mail-lon.bigfish.com ([213.206.137.197] helo=mail3-lon-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlv57-0003W3-Qb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:47:30 -0400 Received: from mail3-lon.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail3-lon-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593FB317ED0; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:21:26 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail3-lon.bigfish.com (MessageSwitch) id 1119644486202258_5476; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:21:26 +0000 (UCT) Received: from usmta02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.248.62]) by mail3-lon.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF13317EEB; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:21:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by usmta02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.12) with SMTP id 2005062413284074:194269 ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:28:40 -0700 To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:18:28 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/24/2005 13:18:28, Itemize by SMTP Server on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/24/2005 01:28:41 PM, Serialize by Router on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/24/2005 01:28:43 PM, Serialize complete at 06/24/2005 01:28:43 PM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 006FD0AB8825702A_=" X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8c5f6bda4ad659e3342414357608cafc Cc: ltru@ietf.org, internet-drafts@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --=_mixed 006FD0AB8825702A_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Addison, I haven't reviewed the full-text of your draft in detail, but I have one comment on es-419. (I hope this point of distinction doesn't interfere with my own registration request!) The draft currently reads: "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') as used in the UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419')." The wording here seems to imply that this variant of Spanish is used throughout the regions listed -- that's not entirely true. The registration was intended to identify a *neutral* version of Spanish very commonly used by content localizers to serve the regions mentioned above, but this does not mean es-419 is "as used" by locals in the region itself. es-419 is intended to codify the version of Spanish most localizers intend for use in Latin American and the Caribbean, even though it may not conform to specific regional distinctions and dialects. It is distinct from Castilian Spanish. Regards, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 "Addison Phillips" Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 06/24/2005 07:13 AM To: cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Dear Editor, Please find attached draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06 in text format. Thanks, Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software http://www.quest.com Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group http://www.w3.org/International Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_mixed 006FD0AB8825702A_= Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Network Working Group A. Phillips, Ed. Internet-Draft Quest Software Expires: December 25, 2005 M. Davis, Ed. IBM June 23, 2005 Tags for Identifying Languages draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06 Status of this Memo By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on December 25, 2005. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). Abstract This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 1] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. The Language Tag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.1 Syntax . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.2 Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation . . . . . . . . 6 2.2.1 Primary Language Subtag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2.2.2 Extended Language Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2.2.3 Script Subtag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 2.2.4 Region Subtag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 2.2.5 Variant Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 2.2.6 Extension Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 2.2.8 Pre-Existing RFC 3066 Registrations . . . . . . . . . 15 2.2.9 Classes of Conformance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 3. Registry Format and Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 3.1 Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry . . . . . . . 17 3.2 Maintenance of the Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 3.3 Stability of IANA Registry Entries . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 3.4 Registration Procedure for Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 3.5 Possibilities for Registration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 3.6 Extensions and Extensions Namespace . . . . . . . . . . . 31 3.7 Initialization of the Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 4. Formation and Processing of Language Tags . . . . . . . . . . 38 4.1 Choice of Language Tag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38 4.2 Meaning of the Language Tag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 4.3 Length Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41 4.3.1 Working with Limited Buffer Sizes . . . . . . . . . . 41 4.3.2 Truncation of Language Tags . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43 4.4 Canonicalization of Language Tags . . . . . . . . . . . . 43 4.5 Considerations for Private Use Subtags . . . . . . . . . . 45 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48 7. Character Set Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49 8. Changes from RFC 3066 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 9. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 9.1 Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 9.2 Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56 A. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57 B. Examples of Language Tags (Informative) . . . . . . . . . . . 58 C. Example Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . 64 Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 2] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. Introduction Human beings on our planet have, past and present, used a number of languages. There are many reasons why one would want to identify the language used when presenting or requesting information. User's language preferences often need to be identified so that appropriate processing can be applied. For example, the user's language preferences in a Web browser can be used to select Web pages appropriately. Language preferences can also be used to select among tools (such as dictionaries) to assist in the processing or understanding of content in different languages. In addition, knowledge about the particular language used by some piece of information content might be useful or even required by some types of processing; for example spell-checking, computer-synthesized speech, Braille transcription, or high-quality print renderings. One means of indicating the language used is by labeling the information content with an identifier or "tag". These tags can be used to specify user preferences when selecting information content, or for labeling additional attributes of content and associated resources. Tags can also be used to indicate additional language attributes of content. For example, indicating specific information about the dialect, writing system, or orthography used in a document or resource may enable the user to obtain information in a form that they can understand, or important in processing or rendering the given content into an appropriate form or style. This document specifies a particular identifier mechanism (the language tag) and a registration function for values to be used to form tags. It also defines a mechanism for private use values and future extension. This document replaces RFC 3066, which replaced RFC 1766. For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. The keywords "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 3] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 2. The Language Tag The language tag always defines a language as used (which includes being spoken, written, signed, or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of information to other human beings. Computer languages such as programming languages are explicitly excluded. 2.1 Syntax The language tag is composed of one or more parts or "subtags". Each subtag consists of a sequence of alpha-numeric characters. Subtags are distinguished and separated from one another by a hyphen ("-"). A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of language identified by the overall tag. Each type of subtag is distinguished by length, position in the tag, and content: subtags can be recognized solely by these features. This makes it possible to construct a parser that can extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if the specific subtag values are not recognized. Thus a parser need not have an up- to-date copy (or any copy at all) of the subtag registry to perform most searching and matching operations. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 4] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC2234bis] is: Language-Tag =3D (lang *3("-" extlang) ["-" script] ["-" region] *("-" variant) *("-" extension) ["-" privateuse]) / privateuse ; private-use tag / grandfathered ; grandfathered registrations lang =3D 2*4ALPHA ; shortest ISO 639 code / registered-lang extlang =3D 3ALPHA ; reserved for future use script =3D 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code region =3D 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166 code / 3DIGIT ; UN country number variant =3D 5*8alphanum ; registered variants / ( DIGIT 3alphanum ) extension =3D singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum)) privateuse =3D ("x"/"X") 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) singleton =3D %x41-57 / %x59-5A / %x61-77 / %x79-7A / DIGIT ; "a"-"w" / "y"-"z" / "A"-"W" / "Y"-"Z" / "0"-"9" ; Single letters: x/X is reserved for private use registered-lang =3D 4*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag grandfathered =3D 1*3ALPHA 1*2("-" (2*8alphanum)) ; grandfathered registration ; Note: i is the only singleton ; that starts a grandfathered tag alphanum =3D (ALPHA / DIGIT) ; letters and numbers Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF The character "-" is HYPHEN-MINUS (ABNF: %x2D). All subtags have a maximum length of eight characters. Note that there is a subtlety in the ABNF for 'variant': variants starting with a digit MAY be four characters long, while those starting with a letter MUST be at least five characters long. Whitespace is not permitted in a language tag. For examples of language tags, see Appendix B. Note that although [RFC2234bis] refers to octets, the language tags described in this document are sequences of characters from the US- ASCII repertoire. Language tags MAY be used in documents and applications that use other encodings, so long as these encompass the US-ASCII repertoire. An example of this would be an XML document Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 5] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 that uses the UTF-16LE [RFC2781] encoding of [Unicode]. The tags and their subtags, including private-use and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive: there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the subtags, but these MUST not be taken to carry meaning. For example: o [ISO639-1] recommends that language codes be written in lower case ('mn' Mongolian). o [ISO3166] recommends that country codes be capitalized ('MN' Mongolia). o [ISO15924] recommends that script codes use lower case with the initial letter capitalized ('Cyrl' Cyrillic). However, in the tags defined by this document, the uppercase US-ASCII letters in the range 'A' through 'Z' are considered equivalent and mapped directly to their US-ASCII lowercase equivalents in the range 'a' through 'z'. Thus the tag "mn-Cyrl-MN" is not distinct from "MN- cYRL-mn" or "mN-cYrL-Mn" (or any other combination) and each of these variations conveys the same meaning: Mongolian written in the Cyrillic script as used in Mongolia. 2.2 Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation The namespace of language tags and their subtags is administered by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) [RFC2860] according to the rules in Section 5 of this document. The registry maintained by IANA is the source for valid subtags: other standards referenced in this section provide the source material for that registry. Terminology in this section: o Tag or tags refers to a complete language tag, such as "fr-Latn-CA". Examples of tags in this document are enclosed in double-quotes ("en-US"). o Subtag refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by hyphen, such as the subtag 'Latn' in "fr-Latn-CA". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in single quotes ('Latn'). o Code or codes refers to values defined in external standards (and which are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Latn' is an [ISO15924] script code which was used to define the 'Latn' script subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 6] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 this document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Latn'). The definitions in this section apply to the various subtags within the language tags defined by this document, excepting those "grandfathered" tags defined in Section 2.2.8. Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length and content restrictions. These make identification of the subtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when parsing tags simpler. Subtags in the IANA registry that do not come from an underlying standard can only appear in specific positions in a tag. Specifically, they can only occur as primary language subtags or as variant subtags. Note that sequences of private-use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. Single letter and digit subtags are reserved for current or future use. These include the following current uses: o The single letter subtag 'x' is reserved to introduce a sequence of private-use subtags. The interpretation of any private-use subtags is defined solely by private agreement and is not defined by the rules in this section or in any standard or registry defined in this document. o All other single letter subtags are reserved to introduce standardized extension subtag sequences as described in Section 3.6. The single letter subtag 'i' is used by some grandfathered tags, such as "i-enochian", where it always appears in the first position and cannot be confused with an extension. 2.2.1 Primary Language Subtag The primary language subtag is the first subtag in a language tag (with the exception of private-use and certain grandfathered tags) and cannot be omitted. The following rules apply to the primary language subtag: Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 7] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. All two character language subtags were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in the standard ISO 639 Part 1, "ISO 639-1:2002, Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 1: Alpha-2 code" [ISO639-1], or using assignments subsequently made by the ISO 639 Part 1 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. 2. All three character language subtags were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in ISO 639 Part 2, "ISO 639-2:1998 - Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code - edition 1" [ISO639-2], or assignments subsequently made by the ISO 639 Part 2 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. 3. The subtags in the range 'qaa' through 'qtz' are reserved for private use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved by ISO 639-2 for private use. These codes MAY be used for non-registered primary-language subtags (instead of using private-use subtags following 'x-'). Please refer to Section 4.5 for more information on private use subtags. 4. All four character language subtags are reserved for possible future standardization. 5. All language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.4 and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type will be discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639 and proposals rejected by ISO 639/RA will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. 6. The single character subtag 'x' as the primary subtag indicates that the language tag consists solely of subtags whose meaning is defined by private agreement. For example, in the tag "x-fr-CH", the subtags 'fr' and 'CH' SHOULD NOT be taken to represent the French language or the country of Switzerland (or any other value in the IANA registry) unless there is a private agreement in place to do so. See Section 4.5. 7. The single character subtag 'i' is used by some grandfathered tags (see Section 2.2.8) such as "i-klingon" and "i-bnn". (Other grandfathered tags have a primary language subtag in their first position) 8. Other values MUST NOT be assigned to the primary subtag except by revision or update of this document. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 8] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Note: For languages that have both an ISO 639-1 two character code and an ISO 639-2 three character code, only the ISO 639-1 two character code is defined in the IANA registry. Note: For languages that have no ISO 639-1 two character code and for which the ISO 639-2/T (Terminology) code and the ISO 639-2/B (Bibliographic) codes differ, only the Terminology code is defined in the IANA registry. At the time this document was created, all languages that had both kinds of three character code were also assigned a two character code; it is not expected that future assignments of this nature will occur. Note: To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066, as well as the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/ RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.principles]: "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO 639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1. This is to ensure consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2 code for that language is not available." In order to avoid instability of the canonical form of tags, if a two character code is added to ISO 639-1 for a language for which a three character code was already included in ISO 639-2, the two character code will not be added as a subtag in the registry. See Section 3.3. For example, if some content were tagged with 'haw' (Hawaiian), which currently has no two character code, the tag would not be invalidated if ISO 639-1 were to assign a two character code to the Hawaiian language at a later date. For example, one of the grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian-Latn" valid. 2.2.2 Extended Language Subtags The following rules apply to the extended language subtags: 1. Three letter subtags immediately following the primary subtag are reserved for future standardization, anticipating work that is currently under way on ISO 639. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 9] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 2. Extended language subtags MUST follow the primary subtag and precede any other subtags. 3. There MAY be up to three extended language subtags. 4. Extended language subtags MUST NOT be registered or used to form language tags. Their syntax is described here so that implementations can be compatible with any future revision of this document which does provide for their registration. Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, MUST include exactly one 'Prefix' field indicating an appropriate language subtag or sequence of subtags that MUST always appear as a prefix to the extended language subtag. Example: In a future revision or update of this document, the tag "zh-gan" (registered under RFC 3066) might become a valid non- grandfathered (that is, redundant) tag in which the subtag 'gan' might represent the Chinese dialect 'Gan'. 2.2.3 Script Subtag Script subtags are used to indicate the script or writing system variations that distinguish the written forms of a language or its dialects. The following rules apply to the script subtags: 1. All four character subtags were defined according to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjunction with this language. 2. Script subtags MUST immediately follow the primary language subtag and all extended language subtags and MUST occur before any other type of subtag described below. 3. The script subtags 'Qaaa' through 'Qabx' are reserved for private use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved by ISO 15924 for private use. These codes MAY be used for non- registered script values. Please refer to Section 4.5 for more information on private-use subtags. 4. Script subtags cannot be registered using the process in Section 3.4 of this document. Variant subtags MAY be considered for registration for that purpose. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 10] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 5. There MUST be at most one script subtag in a language tag and the script subtag SHOULD be omitted when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag or when the primary language subtag's record includes a Supress-Script field listing the applicable script subtag. Example: "sr-Latn" represents Serbian written using the Latin script. 2.2.4 Region Subtag Region subtags are used to indicate regional or geographical variations that define a language or its dialects. The following rules apply to the region subtags: 1. The region subtag defines language variations used in a specific region, geographic, or political area. Region subtags MUST follow any language, extended language, or script subtags and MUST precede all other subtags. 2. All two character subtags following the primary subtag were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in [ISO3166]--"Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions - Part 1: Country codes"--alpha-2 country codes or assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. 3. All three character subtags consisting of digit (numeric) characters following the primary subtag were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in UN Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use [UN_M.49] or assignments subsequently made by the governing standards body. Note that not all of the UN M.49 codes are defined in the IANA registry. The following rules define which codes are entered into the registry as valid subtags: A. UN numeric codes assigned to 'macro-geographical (continental)' or sub-regions MUST be registered in the registry. These codes are not associated with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code and represent supra-national areas, usually covering more than one nation, state, province, or territory. B. UN numeric codes for 'economic groupings' or 'other groupings' MUST NOT be registered in the IANA registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. C. UN numeric codes for countries or areas with ambiguous ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes, when entered into the registry, MUST be Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 11] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 defined according to the rules in Section 3.3 and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which they are defined. D. UN numeric codes for countries or areas for which there is an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code in the registry MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. Note that the ISO 3166-based subtag in the registry MUST actually be associated with the UN M.49 code in question. E. All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do not have an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. For more information about these codes, see Section 3.3. 4. Note: The alphanumeric codes in Appendix X of the UN document MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. (At the time this document was created these values match the ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes.) 5. There MUST be at most one region subtag in a language tag and the region subtag MAY be omitted, as when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag. 6. The region subtags 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-'XZ', and 'ZZ' are reserved for private use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved by ISO 3166 for private use. These codes MAY be used for private use region subtags (instead of using a private-use subtag sequence). Please refer to Section 4.5 for more information on private use subtags. "de-CH" represents German ('de') as used in Switzerland ('CH'). "sr-Latn-CS" represents Serbian ('sr') written using Latin script ('Latn') as used in Serbia and Montenegro ('CS'). "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') as used in the UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). 2.2.5 Variant Subtags Variant subtags are used to indicate additional, well-recognized variations that define a language or its dialects which are not covered by other available subtags. The following rules apply to the variant subtags: Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 12] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. Variant subtags are not associated with any external standard. Variant subtags and their meanings are defined by the registration process defined in Section 3.4. 2. Variant subtags MUST follow all of the other defined subtags, but precede any extension or private-use subtag sequences. 3. More than one variant MAY be used to form the language tag. 4. Variant subtags MUST be registered with IANA according to the rules in Section 3.4 of this document before being used to form language tags. In order to distinguish variants from other types of subtags, registrations MUST meet the following length and content restrictions: 1. Variant subtags that begin with a letter (a-z, A-Z) MUST be at least five characters long. 2. Variant subtags that begin with a digit (0-9) MUST be at least four characters long. Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' fields, which indicates the language tag or tags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. For example, the subtag 'nedis' has a Prefix of "sl", making it suitable to form language tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis", but not suitable for use in a tag such as "zh-nedis" or "it-IT-nedis". "sl-nedis" represents the Natisone or Nadiza dialect of Slovenian. "de-CH-1996" represents German as used in Switzerland and as written using the spelling reform beginning in the year 1996 C.E. Most variants that share a prefix are mutually exclusive. For example, the German orthographic variations '1996' and '1901' SHOULD NOT be used in the same tag, as they represent the dates of different spelling reforms. A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with another variant SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record that lists that other variant. For example, if another German variant 'example' were created that made sense to use with '1996', then 'example' should include two Prefix fields: "de" and "de-1996". 2.2.6 Extension Subtags Extensions provide a mechanism for extending language tags for use in various applications. See: Section 3.6. The following rules apply Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 13] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 to extensions: 1. Extension subtags are separated from the other subtags defined in this document by a single-letter subtag ("singleton"). The singleton MUST be one allocated to a registration authority via the mechanism described in Section 3.6 and cannot be the letter 'x', which is reserved for private-use subtag sequences. 2. Note: Private-use subtag sequences starting with the singleton subtag 'x' are described below. 3. An extension MUST follow at least a primary language subtag. That is, a language tag cannot begin with an extension. Extensions extend language tags, they do not override or replace them. For example, "a-value" is not a well-formed language tag, while "de-a-value" is. 4. Each singleton subtag MUST appear at most one time in each tag (other than as a private-use subtag). That is, singleton subtags MUST NOT be repeated. For example, the tag "en-a-bbb-a- ccc" is invalid because the subtag 'a' appears twice. Note that the tag "en-a-bbb-x-a-ccc" is valid because the second appearance of the singleton 'a' is in a private use sequence. 5. Extension subtags MUST meet all of the requirements for the content and format of subtags defined in this document. 6. Extension subtags MUST meet whatever requirements are set by the document that defines their singleton prefix and whatever requirements are provided by the maintaining authority. 7. Each extension subtag MUST be from two to eight characters long and consist solely of letters or digits, with each subtag separated by a single '-'. 8. Each singleton MUST be followed by at least one extension subtag. For example, the tag "tlh-a-b-foo" is invalid because the first singleton 'a' is followed immediately by another singleton 'b'. 9. Extension subtags MUST follow all language, extended language, script, region and variant subtags in a tag. 10. All subtags following the singleton and before another singleton are part of the extension. Example: In the tag "fr-a-Latn", the subtag 'Latn' does not represent the script subtag 'Latn' defined in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. Its meaning is defined by the extension 'a'. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 14] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 11. In the event that more than one extension appears in a single tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Section 4.4. For example, if the prefix singleton 'r' and the shown subtags were defined, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn- GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags Private use subtags are used to indicate distinctions in language important in a given context by private agreement. The following rules apply to private-use subtags: 1. Private-use subtags are separated from the other subtags defined in this document by the reserved single-character subtag 'x'. 2. Private-use subtags MUST follow all language, extended language, script, region, variant, and extension subtags in the tag. Another way of saying this is that all subtags following the singleton 'x' MUST be considered private use. Example: The subtag 'US' in the tag "en-x-US" is a private use subtag. 3. A tag MAY consist entirely of private-use subtags. 4. No source is defined for private use subtags. Use of private use subtags is by private agreement only. For example: Users who wished to utilize SIL Ethnologue for identification might agree to exchange tags such as "az-Arab-x-AZE- derbend". This example contains two private-use subtags. The first is 'AZE' and the second is 'derbend'. 2.2.8 Pre-Existing RFC 3066 Registrations Existing IANA-registered language tags from RFC 1766 and/or RFC 3066 maintain their validity. IANA will maintain these tags in the registry under either the "grandfathered" or "redundant" type. For more information see Section 3.7. It is important to note that all language tags formed under the guidelines in this document were either legal, well-formed tags or could have been registered under RFC 3066. 2.2.9 Classes of Conformance Implementations sometimes need to describe their capabilities with regard to the rules and practices described in this document. There Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 15] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 are two classes of conforming implementations described by this document: "well-formed" processors and "validating" processors. Claims of conformance SHOULD explicitly reference one of these definitions. An implementation that claims to check for well-formed language tags MUST: o Check that the tag and all of its subtags, including extension and private-use subtags, conform to the ABNF or that the tag is on the list of grandfathered tags. o Check that singleton subtags that identify extensions do not repeat. For example, the tag "en-a-xx-b-yy-a-zz" is not well- formed. Well-formed processors are strongly encouraged to implement the canonicalization rules contained in Section 4.4. An implementation that claims to be validating MUST: o Check that the tag is well-formed. o Specify the particular registry date for which the implementation performs validation of subtags. o Check that either the tag is a grandfathered tag, or that all language, script, region, and variant subtags consist of valid codes for use in language tags according to the IANA registry as of the particular date specified by the implementation. o Specify which, if any, extension RFCs as defined in Section 3.6 are supported, including version, revision, and date. o For any such extensions supported, check that all subtags used in that extension are valid. o For variant and extended language subtags, if the registry contains one or more 'Prefix' fields for that subtag, check that the tag matches at least one prefix. The tag matches if all the subtags in the 'Prefix' also appear in the tag. For example, the prefix "es-CO" matches the tag "es-Latn-CO-x-private" because both the 'es' language subtag and 'CO' region subtag appear in the tag. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 16] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 3. Registry Format and Maintenance This section defines the Language Subtag Registry and the maintenance and update procedures associated with it. The language subtag registry will be maintained so that, except for extension subtags, it is possible to validate all of the subtags that appear in a language tag under the provisions of this document or its revisions or successors. In addition, the meaning of the various subtags will be unambiguous and stable over time. (The meaning of private-use subtags, of course, is not defined by the IANA registry.) The registry defined under this document contains a comprehensive list of all of the subtags valid in language tags. This allows implementers a straightforward and reliable way to validate language tags. 3.1 Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry The IANA Language Subtag Registry ("the registry") will consist of a text file that is machine readable in the format described in this section, plus copies of the registration forms approved by the Language Subtag Reviewer in accordance with the process described in Section 3.4. With the exception of the registration forms for grandfathered and redundant tags, no registration records will be maintained for the initial set of subtags. The registry will be in a modified record-jar format text file [record-jar]. Lines are limited to 72 characters, including all whitespace. Records are separated by lines containing only the sequence "%%" (%x25.25). Each field can be viewed as a single, logical line of ASCII characters, comprising a field-name and a field-body separated by a COLON character (%x3A). For convenience, the field-body portion of this conceptual entity can be split into a multiple-line representation; this is called "folding". The format of the registry is described by the following ABNF (per [RFC2234bis]): registry =3D record *("%%" CRLF record) record =3D 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF ) field-name =3D *(ALPHA / DIGIT / "-") field-body =3D *(ASCCHAR/LWSP) ASCCHAR =3D %x21-25 / %x27-7E / UNICHAR ; Note: AMPERSAND is %x26 UNICHAR =3D "&#x" 2*6HEXDIG ";" Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 17] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The sequence '..' (%x2E.2E) in a field-body denotes a range of values. Such a range represents all subtags of the same length that are alphabetically within that range, including the values explicitly mentioned. For example 'a..c' denotes the values 'a', 'b', and 'c'. Characters from outside the US-ASCII repertoire, as well as the AMPERSAND character ("&", %x26) when it occurs in a field-body are represented by a "Numeric Character Reference" using hexadecimal notation in the style used by [XML10] (see ). This consists of the sequence "&#x" (%x26.23.78) followed by a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in [ISO10646] followed by a closing semicolon (%x3B). For example, the EURO SIGN, U+20AC, would be represented by the sequence "€". Note that the hexadecimal notation MAY have between two and six digits. All fields whose field-body contains a date value use the "full-date" format specified in [RFC3339]. For example: "2004-06-28" represents June 28, 2004 in the Gregorian calendar. The first record in the file contains the single field whose field- name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record contains the last modification date of this copy of the registry, making it possible to compare different versions of the registry. The registry on the IANA website is the most current. Versions with an older date than that one are not up-to-date. File-Date: 2004-06-28 %% Subsequent records represent subtags in the registry. Each of the fields in each record MUST occur no more than once, unless otherwise noted below. Each record MUST contain the following fields: o 'Type' * Type's field-value MUST consist of one of the following strings: "language", "extlang", "script", "region", "variant", "grandfathered", and "redundant" and denotes the type of tag or subtag. o Either 'Subtag' or 'Tag' * Subtag's field-value contains the subtag being defined. This field MUST only appear in records of whose Type has one of these values: "language", "extlang", "script", "region", or "variant". Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 18] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 * Tag's field-value contains a complete language tag. This field MUST only appear in records whose Type has one of these values: "grandfathered" or "redundant". o Description * Description's field-value contains a non-normative description of the subtag or tag. o Added * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to the registry. The 'Subtag' or 'Tag' field MUST use lowercase letters to form the subtag or tag, with two exceptions. Subtags whose 'Type' field is 'script' (in other words, subtags defined by ISO 15924) MUST use titlecase. Subtags whose 'Type' field is 'region' (in other words, subtags defined by ISO 3166) MUST use uppercase. These exceptions mirror the use of case in the underlying standards. The field 'Description' MAY appear more than one time. At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST contain a description of the tag being registered written or transcribed into the Latin script; the same or additional fields MAY also include a description in a non- Latin script. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and SHOULD NOT be taken to represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language. Most descriptions are taken directly from source standards such as ISO 639 or ISO 3166. Note: Descriptions in registry entries that correspond to ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166 or UN M.49 codes are intended only to indicate the meaning of that identifier as defined in the source standard at the time it was added to the registry. The description does not replace the content of the source standard itself. The descriptions are not intended to be the English localized names for the subtags. Localization or translation of language tag and subtag descriptions is out of scope of this document. Each record MAY also contain the following fields: o Preferred-Value * For fields of type 'language', 'extlang', 'script', 'region', and 'variant', 'Preferred-Value' contains a subtag of the same 'Type' which is preferred for forming the language tag. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 19] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 * For fields of type 'grandfathered' and 'redundant', a canonical mapping to a complete language tag. o Deprecated * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was deprecated. o Prefix * Prefix's field-value contains a language tag with which this subtag MAY be used to form a new language tag, perhaps with other subtags as well. This field MUST only appear in records whose 'Type' field-value is 'variant' or 'extlang'. For example, the 'Prefix' for the variant 'nedis' is 'sl', meaning that the tags "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" might be appropriate while the tag "is-nedis" is not. o Comments * Comments contains additional information about the subtag, as deemed appropriate for understanding the registry and implementing language tags using the subtag or tag. o Suppress-Script * Suppress-Script contains a script subtag that SHOULD NOT be used to form language tags with the associated primary language subtag. This field MUST only appear in records whose 'Type' field-value is 'language'. See Section 4.1. The field 'Deprecated' MAY be added to any record via the maintenance process described in Section 3.2 or via the registration process described in Section 3.4. Usually the addition of a 'Deprecated' field is due to the action of one of the standards bodies, such as ISO 3166, withdrawing a code. In some historical cases it might not have been possible to reconstruct the original deprecation date. For these cases, an approximate date appears in the registry. Although valid in language tags, subtags and tags with a 'Deprecated' field are deprecated and validating processors SHOULD NOT generate these subtags. Note that a record that contains a 'Deprecated' field and no corresponding 'Preferred-Value' field has no replacement mapping. Thie field 'Preferred-Value' contains a mapping between the record in which it appears and a tag or subtag which SHOULD be preferred when selected language tags. These values form three groups: Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 20] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 ISO 639 language codes which were later withdrawn in favor of other codes. These values are mostly a historical curiosity. ISO 3166 region codes which have been withdrawn in favor of a new code. This sometimes happens when a country changes its name or administration in such a way that warrants a new region code. Tags grandfathered from RFC 3066. In many cases these tags have become obsolete because the values they represent were later encoded by ISO 639. Records that contain a 'Preferred-Value' field MUST also have a 'Deprecated' field. This field contains a date of deprecation. Thus a language tag processor can use the registry to construct the valid, non-deprecated set of subtags for a given date. In addition, for any given tag, a processor can construct the set of valid language tags that correspond to that tag for all dates up to the date of the registry. The ability to do these mappings MAY be beneficial to applications that are matching, selecting, for filtering content based on its language tags. Note that 'Preferred-Value' mappings in records of type 'region' MAY NOT represent exactly the same meaning as the original value. There are many reasons for a country code to be changed and the effect this has on the formation of language tags will depend on the nature of the change in question. In particular, the 'Preferred-Value' field does not imply retagging content that uses the affected subtag. The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry. The field MAY be added to records of type "grandfathered" and "region" according to the rules in Section 3.2. Otherwise the field MUST NOT be added to any record already in the registry. The 'Preferred-Value' field in records of type "grandfathered" and "redundant" contains whole language tags that are strongly RECOMMENDED for use in place of the record's value. In many cases the mappings were created by deprecation of the tags during the period before this document was adopted. For example, the tag "no- nyn" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-1 defined language code 'nn'. Records of type 'variant' MAY have more than one field of type 'Prefix'. Additional fields of this type MAY be added to a 'variant' record via the registration process. Records of type 'extlang' MUST have _exactly_ one 'Prefix' field. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 21] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The field-value of the 'Prefix' field consists of a language tag whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. For example, the variant subtag '1996' has a Prefix field of "de". This means that tags starting with the sequence "de-" are appropriate with this subtag, so "de-Latg-1996" and "de-CH-1996" are both acceptable, while the tag "fr-1996" is an inappropriate choice. The field of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any record. The field-value for this type of field MUST NOT be modified. The field 'Comments' MAY appear more than once per record. This field MAY be inserted or changed via the registration process and no guarantee of stability is provided. The content of this field is not restricted, except by the need to register the information, the suitability of the request, and by reasonable practical size limitations. Long screeds about a particular subtag are frowned upon. The field 'Suppress-Script' MUST only appear in records whose 'Type' field-value is 'language'. This field MAY appear at most one time in a record. This field indicates a script used to write the overwhelming majority of documents for the given language and which therefore adds no distinguishing information to a language tag. It helps ensure greater compatibility between the language tags generated according to the rules in this document and language tags and tag processors or consumers based on RFC 3066. For example, virtually all Icelandic documents are written in the Latin script, making the subtag 'Latn' redundant in the tag "is-Latn". For examples of registry entries and their format, see Appendix C. 3.2 Maintenance of the Registry Maintenance of the registry requires that as codes are assigned or withdrawn by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49, the Language Subtag Reviewer will evaluate each change, determine whether it conflicts with existing registry entries, and submit the information to IANA for inclusion in the registry. If an change takes place and the Language Subtag Reviewer does not do this in a timely manner, then any interested party MAY use the procedure in Section 3.4 to register the appropriate update. Note: The redundant and grandfathered entries together are the complete list of tags registered under [RFC3066]. The redundant tags are those that can now be formed using the subtags defined in the registry together with the rules of Section 2.2. The grandfathered entries are those that can never be legal under those same provisions. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 22] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The set of redundant and grandfathered tags is permanent and stable: no new entries will be added and none of the entries will be removed. Records of type 'grandfathered' MAY have their type converted to 'redundant': see Section 3.7 for more information. RFC 3066 tags that were deprecated prior to the adoption of this document are part of the list of grandfathered tags and their component subtags were not included as registered variants (although they remain eligible for registration). For example, the tag "art- lojban" was deprecated in favor of the language subtag 'jbo'. The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that new subtags meet the requirements in Section 4.1 or submit an appropriate alternate subtag as described in that section. If a change or addition to the registry is needed, the Language Subtag Reviewer will prepare the complete record, including all fields, and forward it to IANA for insertion into the registry. If this represents a new subtag, then the message will indicate that this represents an INSERTION of a record. If this represents a change to an existing subtag, then the message MUST indicate that this represents a MODIFICATION, as shown in the following example: LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION File-Date: 2005-01-02 %% Type: variant Subtag: nedis Description: Natisone dialect Description: Nadiza dialect Added: 2003-10-09 Prefix: sl Comments: This is a comment shown as an example. %% Figure 4 Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File- Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the most recent modification date in the [RFC3339] "full-date" format. Values in the 'Subtag' field MUST be lowercase except as provided for in Section 3.1. 3.3 Stability of IANA Registry Entries The stability of entries and their meaning in the registry is critical to the long term stability of language tags. The rules in Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 23] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 this section guarantee that a specific language tag's meaning is stable over time and will not change. These rules specifically deal with how changes to codes (including withdrawal and deprecation of codes) maintained by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 are reflected in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. Assignments to the IANA Language Subtag Registry MUST follow the following stability rules: o Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. o Values in the 'Description' field MUST NOT be changed in a way that would invalidate previously-existing tags. They MAY be broadened somewhat in scope, changed to add information, or adapted to the most common modern usage. For example, countries occasionally change their official names: an historical example of this would be "Upper Volta" changing to "Burkina Faso". o Values in the field 'Prefix' MAY be added to records of type 'variant' via the registration process. o Values in the field 'Prefix' MAY be modified, so long as the modifications broaden the set of prefixes. That is, a prefix MAY be replaced by one of its own prefixes. For example, the prefix "en-US" could be replaced by "en", but not by the prefixes "en- Latn", "fr", or "en-US-boont". If one of those prefixes were needed, a new Prefix SHOULD be registered. o Values in the field 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed. o The field 'Comments' MAY be added, changed, modified, or removed via the registration process or any of the processes or considerations described in this section. o The field 'Suppress-Script' MAY be added or removed via the registration process. o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records. o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166 that are withdrawn by their respective maintenance or registration authority remain valid in language tags. A 'Deprecated' field containing the date of withdrawal is added to the record. If a Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 24] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 new record of the same type is added that represents a replacement value, then a 'Preferred-Value' field MAY also be added. The registration process MAY be used to add comments about the withdrawal of the code by the respective standard. * The region code 'TL' was assigned to the country 'Timor-Leste', replacing the code 'TP' (which was assigned to 'East Timor' when it was under administration by Portugal). The subtag 'TP' remains valid in language tags, but its record contains the a 'Preferred-Value' of 'TL' and its field 'Deprecated' contains the date the new code was assigned ('2004-07-06'). o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166 that conflict with existing subtags of the associated type, including subtags that are deprecated, MUST NOT be entered into the registry. The following additional considerations apply to subtag values that are reassigned: * For ISO 639 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is not represented by a subtag in the IANA registry, the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.4, SHALL prepare a proposal for entering in the IANA registry as soon as practical a registered language subtag as an alternate value for the new code. The form of the registered language subtag will be at the discretion of the Language Subtag Reviewer and MUST conform to other restrictions on language subtags in this document. * For all subtags whose meaning is derived from an external standard (i.e. ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, or UN M.49), if a new meaning is assigned to an existing code and the new meaning broadens the meaning of that code, then the meaning for the associated subtag MAY be changed to match. The meaning of a subtag MUST NOT be narrowed, however, as this can result in an unknown proportion of the existing uses of a subtag becoming invalid. Note: ISO 639 MA/RA has adopted a similar stability policy. * For ISO 15924 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is not represented by a subtag in the IANA registry, the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.4, SHALL prepare a proposal for entering in the IANA registry as soon as practical a registered variant subtag as an alternate value for the new code. The form of the registered variant subtag will be at the discretion of the Language Subtag Reviewer and MUST conform to other restrictions on variant subtags in this document. * For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with the same UN M.49 code as another 'region' Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 25] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 subtag, then the existing region subtag remains as the preferred value for that region and no new entry is created. A comment MAY be added to the existing region subtag indicating the relationship to the new ISO 3166 code. * For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with a UN M.49 code that is not represented by an existing region subtag, then the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.4, SHALL prepare a proposal for entering the appropriate UN M.49 country code as an entry in the IANA registry. * Codes assigned by UN M.49 to countries or areas (as opposed to geographical regions and sub-regions) for which there is no corresponding ISO 3166 code MUST NOT be registered, except under the previous provision. If it is necessary to identify a region for which only a UN M.49 code exists in language tags, then the registration authority for ISO 3166 SHOULD be petitioned to assign a code, which can then be registered for use in language tags. At the time this document was written, there were only four such codes: 830 (Channel Islands), 831 (Guernsey), 832 (Jersey), and 833 (Isle of Man). This rule exists so that UN M.49 codes remain available as the value of last resort in cases where ISO 3166 reassigns a deprecated value in the registry. * For ISO 3166 codes, if there is no associated UN numeric code, then the Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL petition the UN to create one. If there is no response from the UN within ninety days of the request being sent, the Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL prepare a proposal for entering in the IANA registry as soon as practical a registered variant subtag as an alternate value for the new code. The form of the registered variant subtag will be at the discretion of the Language Subtag Reviewer and MUST conform to other restrictions on variant subtags in this document. This situation is very unlikely to ever occur. o Stability provisions apply to grandfathered tags with this exception: should all of the subtags in a grandfathered tag become valid subtags in the IANA registry, then the field 'Type' in that record is changed from 'grandfathered' to 'redundant'. Note that this will not affect language tags that match the grandfathered tag, since these tags will now match valid generative subtag sequences. For example, if the subtag 'gan' in the language tag "zh-gan" were to be registered as an extended language subtag, then the grandfathered tag "zh-gan" would be deprecated (but existing content or implementations that use "zh-gan" would remain Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 26] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 valid). 3.4 Registration Procedure for Subtags The procedure given here MUST be used by anyone who wants to use a subtag not currently in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. Only subtags of type 'language' and 'variant' will be considered for independent registration of new subtags. Handling of subtags needed for stability and subtags necessary to keep the registry synchronized with ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 within the limits defined by this document are described in Section 3.2. Stability provisions are described in Section 3.3. This procedure MAY also be used to register or alter the information for the "Description", "Comments", "Deprecated", or "Prefix" fields in a subtag's record as described in Figure 9. Changes to all other fields in the IANA registry are NOT permitted. Registering a new subtag or requesting modifications to an existing tag or subtag starts with the requester filling out the registration form reproduced below. Note that each response is not limited in size so that the request can adequately describe the registration. The fields in the "Record Requested" section SHOULD follow the requirements in Section 3.1. LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM 1. Name of requester: 2. E-mail address of requester: 3. Record Requested: Type: Subtag: Description: Prefix: Preferred-Value: Deprecated: Suppress-Script: Comments: 4. Intended meaning of the subtag: 5. Reference to published description of the language (book or article): 6. Any other relevant information: Figure 5 Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 27] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The subtag registration form MUST be sent to for a two week review period before it can be submitted to IANA. (This is an open list and can be joined by sending a request to .) Variant and extlang subtags are always registered for use with a particular range of language tags. For example, the subtag 'rozaj' is intended for use with language tags that start with the primary language subtag "sl", since Resian is a dialect of Slovenian. Thus the subtag 'rozaj' could be included in tags such as "sl-Latn-rozaj" or "sl-IT-rozaj". This information is stored in the "Prefix" field in the registry. Variant registration requests are REQUIRED to include at least one "Prefix" field in the registration form. The 'Prefix' field for a given registered subtag will be maintained in the IANA registry as a guide to usage. Additional prefixes MAY be added by filing an additional registration form. In that form, the "Any other relevant information:" field MUST indicate that it is the addition of a prefix. Requests to add a prefix to a variant subtag that imply a different semantic meaning will probably be rejected. For example, a request to add the prefix "de" to the subtag 'nedis' so that the tag "de- nedis" represented some German dialect would be rejected. The 'nedis' subtag represents a particular Slovenian dialect and the additional registration would change the semantic meaning assigned to the subtag. A separate subtag SHOULD be proposed instead. The 'Description' field MUST contain a description of the tag being registered written or transcribed into the Latin script; it MAY also include a description in a non-Latin script. Non-ASCII characters MUST be escaped using the syntax described in Section 3.1. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language. While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.3. The Language Subtag Reviewer is responsible for responding to requests for the registration of subtags through the registration process and is appointed by the IESG. When the two week period has passed the Language Subtag Reviewer Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 28] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 either forwards the record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org according to the procedure described in Section 3.2, or rejects the request because of significant objections raised on the list or due to problems with constraints in this document (which MUST be explicitly cited). The reviewer MAY also extend the review period in two week increments to permit further discussion. The reviewer MUST indicate on the list whether the registration has been accepted, rejected, or extended following each two week period. Note that the reviewer can raise objections on the list if he or she so desires. The important thing is that the objection MUST be made publicly. The applicant is free to modify a rejected application with additional information and submit it again; this restarts the two week comment period. Decisions made by the reviewer MAY be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF decisions [RFC2026]. All approved registration forms are available online in the directory http://www.iana.org/numbers.html under "languages". Updates or changes to existing records, including previous registrations, follow the same procedure as new registrations. The Language Subtag Reviewer decides whether there is consensus to update the registration following the two week review period; normally objections by the original registrant will carry extra weight in forming such a consensus. Registrations are permanent and stable. Once registered, subtags will not be removed from the registry and will remain a valid way in which to specify a specific language or variant. Note: The purpose of the "Description" in the registration form is intended as an aid to people trying to verify whether a language is registered or what language or language variation a particular subtag refers to. In most cases, reference to an authoritative grammar or dictionary of that language will be useful; in cases where no such work exists, other well known works describing that language or in that language MAY be appropriate. The subtag reviewer decides what constitutes "good enough" reference material. This requirement is not intended to exclude particular languages or dialects due to the size of the speaker population or lack of a standardized orthography. Minority languages will be considered equally on their own merits. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 29] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 3.5 Possibilities for Registration Possibilities for registration of subtags or information about subtags include: o Primary language subtags for languages not listed in ISO 639 that are not variants of any listed or registered language can be registered. At the time this document was created there were no examples of this form of subtag. Before attempting to register a language subtag, there MUST be an attempt to register the language with ISO 639. No language subtags will be registered for codes that exist in ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2, which are under consideration by the ISO 639 maintenance or registration authorities, or which have never been attempted for registration with those authorities. If ISO 639 has previously rejected a language for registration, it is reasonable to assume that there must be additional very compelling evidence of need before it will be registered in the IANA registry (to the extent that it is very unlikely that any subtags will be registered of this type). o Dialect or other divisions or variations within a language, its orthography, writing system, regional or historical usage, transliteration or other transformation, or distinguishing variation MAY be registered as variant subtags. An example is the 'rozaj' subtag (the Resian dialect of Slovenian). o The addition or maintenance of fields (generally of an informational nature) in Tag or Subtag records as described in Section 3.1 and subject to the stability provisions in Section 3.3. This includes descriptions; comments; deprecation and preferred values for obsolete or withdrawn codes; or the addition of script or extlang information to primary language subtags. o The addition of records and related field value changes necessary to reflect assignments made by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 as described in Section 3.3. This document leaves the decision on what subtags or changes to subtags are appropriate (or not) to the registration process described in Section 3.4. Note: four character primary language subtags are reserved to allow for the possibility of alpha4 codes in some future addition to the ISO 639 family of standards. ISO 639 defines a maintenance agency for additions to and changes in the list of languages in ISO 639. This agency is: Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 30] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 International Information Centre for Terminology (Infoterm) Aichholzgasse 6/12, AT-1120 Wien, Austria Phone: +43 1 26 75 35 Ext. 312 Fax: +43 1 216 32 72 ISO 639-2 defines a maintenance agency for additions to and changes in the list of languages in ISO 639-2. This agency is: Library of Congress Network Development and MARC Standards Office Washington, D.C. 20540 USA Phone: +1 202 707 6237 Fax: +1 202 707 0115 URL: http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639 The maintenance agency for ISO 3166 (country codes) is: ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency c/o International Organization for Standardization Case postale 56 CH-1211 Geneva 20 Switzerland Phone: +41 22 749 72 33 Fax: +41 22 749 73 49 URL: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/index.html The registration authority for ISO 15924 (script codes) is: Unicode Consortium Box 391476 Mountain View, CA 94039-1476, USA URL: http://www.unicode.org/iso15924 The Statistics Division of the United Nations Secretariat maintains the Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use and can be reached at: Statistical Services Branch Statistics Division United Nations, Room DC2-1620 New York, NY 10017, USA Fax: +1-212-963-0623 E-mail: statistics@un.org URL: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49alpha.htm 3.6 Extensions and Extensions Namespace Extension subtags are those introduced by single-letter subtags other than 'x'. They are reserved for the generation of identifiers which contain a language component, and are compatible with applications that understand language tags. For example, they might be used to Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 31] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 define locale identifiers, which are generally based on language. The structure and form of extensions are defined by this document so that implementations can be created that are forward compatible with applications that might be created using single-letter subtags in the future. In addition, defining a mechanism for maintaining single- letter subtags will lend to the stability of this document by reducing the likely need for future revisions or updates. Allocation of a single-letter subtag SHALL take the form of an RFC defining the name, purpose, processes, and procedures for maintaining the subtags. The maintaining or registering authority, including name, contact email, discussion list email, and URL location of the registry MUST be indicated clearly in the RFC. The RFC MUST specify or include each of the following: o The specification MUST reference the specific version or revision of this document that governs its creation and MUST reference this section of this document. o The specification and all subtags defined by the specification MUST follow the ABNF and other rules for the formation of tags and subtags as defined in this document. In particular it MUST specify that case is not significant and that subtags MUST NOT exceed eight characters in length. o The specification MUST specify a canonical representation. o The specification of valid subtags MUST be available over the Internet and at no cost. o The specification MUST be in the public domain or available via a royalty-free license acceptable to the IETF and specified in the RFC. o The specification MUST be versioned and each version of the specification MUST be numbered, dated, and stable. o The specification MUST be stable. That is, extension subtags, once defined by a specification, MUST NOT be retracted or change in meaning in any substantial way. o The specification MUST include in a separate section the registration form reproduced in this section (below) to be used in registering the extension upon publication as an RFC. o IANA MUST be informed of changes to the contact information and URL for the specification. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 32] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 IANA will maintain a registry of allocated single-letter (singleton) subtags. This registry will use the record-jar format described by the ABNF in Section 3.1. Upon publication of an extension as an RFC, the maintaining authority defined in the RFC MUST forward this registration form to iesg@ietf.org, who will forward the request to iana@iana.org. The maintaining authority of the extension MUST maintain the accuracy of the record by sending an updated full copy of the record to iana@iana.org with the subject line "LANGUAGE TAG EXTENSION UPDATE" whenever content changes. Only the 'Comments', 'Contact_Email', 'Mailing_List', and 'URL' fields MAY be modified in these updates. Failure to maintain this record, the corresponding registry, or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document MAY be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG. %% Identifier: Description: Comments: Added: RFC: Authority: Contact_Email: Mailing_List: URL: %% Figure 6: Format of Records in the Language Tag Extensions Registry 'Identifier' contains the single letter subtag (singleton) assigned to the extension. The Internet-Draft submitted to define the extension SHOULD specify which letter to use, although the IESG MAY change the assignment when approving the RFC. 'Description' contains the name and description of the extension. 'Comments' is an OPTIONAL field and MAY contain a broader description of the extension. 'Added' contains the date the RFC was published in the "full-date" format specified in [RFC3339]. For example: 2004-06-28 represents June 28, 2004, in the Gregorian calendar. 'RFC' contains the RFC number assigned to the extension. 'Authority' contains the name of the maintaining authority for the Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 33] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 extension. 'Contact_Email' contains the email address used to contact the maintaining authority. 'Mailing_List' contains the URL or subscription email address of the mailing list used by the maintaining authority. 'URL' contains the URL of the registry for this extension. The determination of whether an Internet-Draft meets the above conditions and the decision to grant or withhold such authority rests solely with the IESG, and is subject to the normal review and appeals process associated with the RFC process. Extension authors are strongly cautioned that many (including most well-formed) processors will be unaware of any special relationships or meaning inherent in the order of extension subtags. Extension authors SHOULD avoid subtag relationships or canonicalization mechanisms that interfere with matching or with length restrictions that sometimes exist in common protocols where the extension is used. In particular, applications MAY truncate the subtags in doing matching or in fitting into limited lengths, so it is RECOMMENDED that the most significant information be in the most significant (left-most) subtags, and that the specification gracefully handle truncated subtags. When a language tag is to be used in a specific, known, protocol, it is RECOMMENDED that that the language tag not contain extensions not supported by that protocol. In addition, note that some protocols MAY impose upper limits on the length of the strings used to store or transport the language tag. 3.7 Initialization of the Registry Upon publication of this document as a BCP, the Language Subtag Registry MUST be created and populated with the initial set of subtags. This includes converting the entries from the existing IANA language tag registry defined by RFC 3066 to the new format. This section defines the process for defining the new registry and performing the conversion of the old registry. The impact on the IANA maintainers of the registry of this conversion will be a small increase in the frequency of new entries. The initial set of records represents no impact on IANA, since the work to create it will be performed externally (as defined in this section). Future work will be limited to inserting or replacing whole records preformatted for IANA by the Language Subtag Reviewer. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 34] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The initial registry will be created by the LTRU working group. Using the instructions in this document, the working group will prepare an Informational RFC by creating a series of Internet-Drafts containing the prototype registry according to the rules in Sections 4.2.2 and 4.2.3 and subject to IESG review as described in Section 6.1.1 of [RFC2026]. When the Internet-Draft containing the prototype registry has been approved by the IESG for publication as an RFC, the document will be forwarded to IANA, which will post the contents of the new registry on-line. Tags in the RFC 3066 registry that are not deprecated that consist entirely of subtags that are defined by this document and which have the correct form and format for tags defined by this document are superseded by this document. Such tags MUST be placed in records of type 'redundant' in the registry. For example, "zh-Hant" is now defined by this document because 'zh' is an ISO 639-1 code and 'Hant' is an ISO 15924 code and both are defined in the registry. Tags in the RFC 3066 registry that contain one or more subtags that do not match the valid registration pattern or which are not otherwise defined by this document MUST have records of type 'grandfathered' created in the registry. These records cannot become type 'redundant' except by revision of this document, but MAY have a 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' field added to them if a subtag assignment or combination of assignments renders the tag obsolete. Tags in the RFC 3066 registry that have a notation that they are deprecated MUST be maintained as grandfathered entries. The record for the grandfathered entry MUST contain a 'Deprecated' field with the most appropriate date that can be determined for when the RFC 3066 record was deprecated. The 'Comments' field SHOULD contain the reason for the deprecation. The 'Preferred-Value' field MAY contain a tag that replaces the value. For example, the tag "art-lojban" is deprecated and will be placed in the grandfathered section. It's 'Deprecated' field will contain the deprecation date (in this case "2003-09-02") and the 'Preferred-Value' field the value "jbo". The remaining tags in the RFC 3066 registry are not deprecated, have a format consistent with language tags as defined by this document, but contain subtags which are not defined by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166. These subtags are consistent with registration as variants. The initial registry SHALL contain appropriate variant records for the following subtags, and registered RFC 3066 tags containing these subtags MUST be entered into the initial registry as type 'redundant': Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 35] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1901 (use with Prefix: de) 1996 (use with Prefix: de) nedis (use with Prefix: sl) rozaj (use with Prefix: sl) All remaining RFC 3066 registered tags MUST be entered into the initial registry in records of type 'grandfathered'. Interested parties MAY use the registration process in Section 3.4 in an attempt to register the variant subtags not already present in the registry. If all of the subtags in the original tag become fully defined by the resulting registrations, then the original tag is superseded by this document. Such tags MUST have their record changed from type 'grandfathered' to type 'redundant' in the registry. Note that previous approval of a tag under RFC 3066 is no guarantee of approval of a variant subtag under this document. The existing RFC 3066 tag maintains its validity, but the original reason for its registration might have become obsolete. For example, the subtag 'boont' could be registered, resulting in the change of the grandfathered tag "en- boont" to type redundant in the registry. There MUST be a reasonable period in which the community can comment on the proposed list entries, which SHALL be no less than four weeks in length. At the completion of this period, the chair(s) will notify iana@iana.org and the ltru and ietf-languages mail lists that the task is complete and forward the necessary materials to IANA for publication. Registrations that are in process under the rules defined in RFC 3066 MAY be completed under the former rules, at the discretion of the language tag reviewer. Any new registrations submitted after the request for conversion of the registry MUST be rejected. New registrations completed under RFC 3066 SHALL be entered into the initial registry using the rules defined just above. All existing RFC 3066 language tag registrations will be maintained in perpetuity. Users of tags that are grandfathered SHOULD consider registering appropriate subtags in the IANA subtag registry (but are NOT REQUIRED to). UN numeric codes assigned to 'macro-geographical (continental)' MUST be defined in the IANA registry and made valid for use in language tags. These codes MUST be added to the initial version of the registry. The UN numeric codes for 'economic groupings' or 'other Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 36] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 groupings', and the alphanumeric codes in Appendix X of the UN document MUST NOT be added to the registry. The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be added to the initial version of the registry. These values MAY be registered by individuals using the process defined in Section 3.4 and according to the rules in Section 3.3. When creating records for ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO3166, and UN M.49 codes, the following criteria SHALL be applied to the inclusion, preferred value, and deprecation of codes: For each standard, the date of the standard referenced in RFC 1766 is selected as the starting date. Codes that were valid on that date in the selected standard are added to the registry. Codes that were previously assigned by but which were vacated or withdrawn before that date are not added to the registry. For each successive change to the standard, any additional assignments are added to the registry. Values that are withdrawn are marked as deprecated, but not removed. Changes in meaning or assignment of a subtag are permitted during this process (for example, the ISO 3166 code 'CS' was originally assigned to 'Czechoslovakia' and is now assigned to 'Serbia and Montenegro'). This continues up to the date that this document was adopted. The resulting set of records is added to the registry. Future changes or additions to this portion of the registry are governed by the provisions of this document. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 37] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 4. Formation and Processing of Language Tags This section addresses how to use the information in the registry with the tag syntax to choose, form and process language tags. 4.1 Choice of Language Tag One is sometimes faced with the choice between several possible tags for the same body of text. Interoperability is best served when all users use the same language tag in order to represent the same language. If an application has requirements that make the rules here inapplicable, then that application risks damaging interoperability. It is strongly RECOMMENDED that users not define their own rules for language tag choice. Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags. In particular, users and implementations SHOULD follow the 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' fields in the registry (defined in Section 3.1): these fields provide guidance on when specific additional subtags SHOULD (and SHOULD NOT) be used in a language tag. Of particular note, many applications can benefit from the use of script subtags in language tags, as long as the use is consistent for a given context. Script subtags were not formally defined in RFC 3066 and their use can affect matching and subtag identification by implementations of RFC 3066, as these subtags appear between the primary language and region subtags. For example, if a user requests content in an implementation of Section 2.5 of [RFC3066] using the language range "en-US", content labeled "en-Latn-US" will not match the request. Therefore it is important to know when script subtags will customarily be used and when they ought not be used. In the registry, the Suppress-Script field helps ensure greater compatibility between the language tags generated according to the rules in this document and language tags and tag processors or consumers based on RFC 3066 by defining when users SHOULD NOT include a script subtag with a particular primary language subtag. Extended language subtags (type 'extlang' in the registry, see Section 3.1) also appear between the primary language and region subtags and are reserved for future standardization. Applications might benefit from their judicious use in forming language tags in the future. Similar recommendations are expected to apply to their use as apply to script subtags. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 38] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Standards, protocols and applications that reference this document normatively but apply different rules to the ones given in this section MUST specify how the procedure varies from the one given here. The choice of subtags used to form a language tag SHOULD be guided by the following rules: 1. Use as precise a tag as possible, but no more specific than is justified. Avoid using subtags that are not important for distinguishing content in an application. * For example, 'de' might suffice for tagging an email written in German, while "de-CH-1996" is probably unnecessarily precise for such a task. 2. The script subtag SHOULD NOT be used to form language tags unless the script adds some distinguishing information to the tag. The field 'Suppress-Script' in the primary language record in the registry indicates which script subtags do not add distinguishing information for most applications. * For example, the subtag 'Latn' should not be used with the primary language 'en' because nearly all English documents are written in the Latin script and it adds no distinguishing information. However, if a document were written in English mixing Latin script with another script such as Braille ('Brai'), then it might be appropriate to choose to indicate both scripts to aid in content selection, such as the application of a stylesheet. 3. If a tag or subtag has a 'Preferred-Value' field in its registry entry, then the value of that field SHOULD be used to form the language tag in preference to the tag or subtag in which the preferred value appears. * For example, use 'he' for Hebrew in preference to 'iw'. 4. The 'und' (Undetermined) primary language subtag SHOULD NOT be used to label content, even if the language is unknown. Omitting the language tag altogether is preferred to using a tag with a primary language subtag of 'und'. The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols that require a language tag to be provided. The 'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language tags in certain situations. 5. The 'mul' (Multiple) primary language subtag SHOULD NOT be used whenever the protocol allows the separate tags for multiple Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 39] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 languages, as is the case for the Content-Language header in HTTP. The 'mul' subtag conveys little useful information: content in multiple languages SHOULD individually tag the languages where they appear or otherwise indicate the actual language in preference to the 'mul' subtag. 6. The same variant subtag SHOULD NOT be used more than once within a language tag. * For example, do not use "de-DE-1901-1901". To ensure consistent backward compatibility, this document contains several provisions to account for potential instability in the standards used to define the subtags that make up language tags. These provisions mean that no language tag created under the rules in this document will become obsolete. 4.2 Meaning of the Language Tag The relationship between the tag and the information it relates to is defined by the the context in which the tag appears. Accordingly, this section can only give possible examples of its usage. o For a single information object, the associated language tags might be interpreted as the set of languages that is necessary for a complete comprehension of the complete object. Example: Plain text documents. o For an aggregation of information objects, the associated language tags could be taken as the set of languages used inside components of that aggregation. Examples: Document stores and libraries. o For information objects whose purpose is to provide alternatives, the associated language tags could be regarded as a hint that the content is provided in several languages, and that one has to inspect each of the alternatives in order to find its language or languages. In this case, the presence of multiple tags might not mean that one needs to be multi-lingual to get complete understanding of the document. Example: MIME multipart/ alternative. o In markup languages, such as HTML and XML, language information can be added to each part of the document identified by the markup structure (including the whole document itself). For example, one could write C'est la vie. inside a Norwegian document; the Norwegian-speaking user could then access a French-Norwegian dictionary to find out what the marked section meant. If the user were listening to that document through a Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 40] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 speech synthesis interface, this formation could be used to signal the synthesizer to appropriately apply French text-to-speech pronunciation rules to that span of text, instead of applying the inappropriate Norwegian rules. Language tags are related when they contain a similar sequence of subtags. For example, if a language tag B contains language tag A as a prefix, then B is typically "narrower" or "more specific" than A. Thus "zh-Hant-TW" is more specific than "zh-Hant". This relationship is not guaranteed in all cases: specifically, languages that begin with the same sequence of subtags are NOT guaranteed to be mutually intelligible, although they might be. For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Cyrl" (Azerbaijani written using the Cyrillic script). A person fluent in one script might not be able to read the other, even though the text might be identical. Content tagged as "az" most probably is written in just one script and thus might not be intelligible to a reader familiar with the other script. 4.3 Length Considerations [RFC3066] did not provide an upper limit on the size of language tags. While RFC 3066 did define the semantics of particular subtags in such a way that most language tags consisted of language and region subtags with a combined total length of up to six characters, larger registered tags were not only possible but were actually registered. Neither the language tag syntax nor other requirements in this document impose a fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a language tag (and thus an upper bound on the size of a tag). The language tag syntax suggests that, depending on the specific language, more subtags (and thus a longer tag) are sometimes necessary to completely identify the language for certain applications; thus it is possible to envision long or complex subtag sequences. 4.3.1 Working with Limited Buffer Sizes Some applications and protocols are forced to allocate fixed buffer sizes or otherwise limit the length of a language tag. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refuse to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified length. Any such limitation SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is truncated). A protocol that allows Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 41] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 tags to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving any indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm by changing the meaning of tags in substantial ways. In practice, most language tags do not require more than a few subtags and will not approach reasonably sized buffer limitations: see Section 4.1. Some specifications or protocols have limits on tag length but do not have a fixed length limitation. For example, [RFC2231] has no explicit length limitation: the length available for the language tag is constrained by the length of other header components (such as the charset's name) coupled with the 76 character limit in [RFC2047]. Thus the "limit" might be 50 or more characters, but it could potentially be quite small. The considerations for assigning a buffer limit are: Implementations SHOULD NOT truncate language tags unless the meaning of the tag is purposefully being changed, or unless the tag does not fit into a limited buffer size specified by a protocol for storage or transmission. Implementations SHOULD warn the user when a tag is truncated since truncation changes the semantic meaning of the tag. Implementations of protocols or specifications that are space constrained but do not have a fixed limit SHOULD use the longest possible tag in preference to truncation. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 33 characters. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least 42 characters. The following illustration shows how the 42-character recommendation was derived. The combination of language and extended language subtags was chosen for future compatibility. At up to 15 characters, this combination is longer than the longest possible primary language subtag (8 characters): Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 42] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 language =3D 3 (ISO 639-2; ISO 639-1 requires 2) extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) script =3D 5 (if not suppressed: see Section 4.1) region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) variant1 =3D 9 (MUST have language as a prefix) variant2 =3D 9 (MUST have language-variant1 as a prefix) total =3D 42 characters Figure 7: Derivation of the Limit on Tag Length 4.3.2 Truncation of Language Tags Truncation of a language tag alters the meaning of the tag, and thus SHOULD be avoided. However, truncation of language tags is sometimes necessary due to limited buffer sizes. Such truncation MUST NOT permit a subtag to be chopped off in the middle or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the "-" character). This means that applications or protocols which truncate tags MUST do so by progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single- character subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For example: Tag to truncate: zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile-private1 1. zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile 2. zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1 3. zh-Latn-CN-variant1 4. zh-Latn-CN 5. zh-Latn 6. zh Figure 8: Example of Tag Truncation 4.4 Canonicalization of Language Tags Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes, language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form. A language tag is in canonical form when: Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 43] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. The tag is well-formed according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2. 2. Subtags of type 'Region' that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1) SHOULD be replaced with their mapped value. 3. Redundant or grandfathered tags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items are either deprecated mappings created before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or additions to this document (for example, "zh-guoyu" might be mapped to a language-extlang combination such as "zh-cmn" by some future update of this document). 4. Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items consist entirely of clerical corrections to ISO 639-1 in which the deprecated subtags have been maintained for compatibility purposes. 5. If more than one extension subtag sequence exists, the extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. Example: The language tag "en-A-aaa-B-ccc-bbb-x-xyz" is in canonical form, while "en-B-ccc-bbb-A-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed but not in canonical form. Example: The language tag "en-NH" (English as used in the New Hebrides) is not canonical because the 'NH' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'VU' (Vanuatu), although the tag "en-NH" maintains its validity. Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing subtags (and as described in Section 2.1). All comparisons MUST be performed in a case-insensitive manner. When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry. Note that this corresponds to the following casing rules: uppercase all non-initial two-letter subtags; titlecase all non-initial four-letter subtags; lowercase everything else. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 44] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Note: Case folding of ASCII letters in certain locales, unless carefully handled, sometimes produces non-ASCII character values. The Unicode Character Database file "SpecialCasing.txt" defines the specific cases that are known to cause problems with this. In particular, the letter 'i' (U+0069) in Turkish and Azerbaijani is uppercased to U+0130 (LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I WITH DOT ABOVE). Implementers SHOULD specify a locale-neutral casing operation to ensure that case folding of subtags does not produce this value, which is illegal in language tags. For example, if one were to uppercase the region subtag 'in' using Turkish locale rules, the sequence U+0130 U+004E would result instead of the expected 'IN'. Note: if the field 'Deprecated' appears in a registry record without an accompanying 'Preferred-Value' field, then that tag or subtag is deprecated without a replacement. Validating processors SHOULD NOT generate tags that include these values, although the values are canonical when they appear in a language tag. An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags. Extensions MAY define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted. For example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a- aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa". Another extension might define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from "en-b- aaa-bbb-ccc"). However, extension specifications SHOULD be designed so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in Section 3.6. 4.5 Considerations for Private Use Subtags Private-use subtags require private agreement between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags that use them and great caution SHOULD be used in employing them in content or protocols intended for general use. Private-use subtags are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement. The value and semantic meaning of private-use tags and of the subtags used within such a language tag are not defined by this document. The use of subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. For applications this additional information MAY be useful. For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ' and in the ranges Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 45] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 'QM'-'QZ' and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from ISO 3166 private use codes) MAY be used to form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag such as "x-someLang", which contains no information about the language subtag or script subtag outside of the private agreement. However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags, so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 46] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 5. IANA Considerations This section deals with the processes and requirements necessary for IANA to undertake to maintain the subtag and extension registries as defined by this document and in accordance with the requirements of [RFC2434]. The impact on the IANA maintainers of the two registries defined by this document will be a small increase in the frequency of new entries or updates. Upon adoption of this document, the process described in Section 3.7 will be used to generate the initial Language Subtag Registry. The initial set of records represents no impact on IANA, since the work to create it will be performed externally (as defined in that section). The new registry will be listed under "Language Tags" at . The existing directory of registration forms and RFC 3066 registrations will be relabeled as "Language Tags (Obsolete)" and maintained (but not added to or modified). Future work on the Language Subtag Registry will be limited to inserting or replacing whole records preformatted for IANA by the Language Subtag Reviewer as described in Section 3.2 of this document. Each record will be sent to iana@iana.org with a subject line indicating whether the enclosed record is an insertion (of a new record) or a replacement of an existing record which has a Type and Subtag (or Tag) field that exactly matches the record sent. Records cannot be deleted from the registry. The Language Tag Extensions registry will also be generated and sent to IANA as described in Section 3.6. This registry can contain at most 35 records and thus changes to this registry are expected to be very infrequent. Future work by IANA on the Language Tag Extensions Registry is limited to two cases. First, the IESG MAY request that new records be inserted into this registry from time to time. These requests will include the record to insert in the exact format described in Section 3.6. In addition, there MAY be occasional requests from the maintaining authority for a specific extension to update the contact information or URLs in the record. These requests MUST include the complete, updated record. IANA is not responsible for validating the information provided, only that it is properly formatted. It should reasonably be seen to come from the maintaining authority named in the record present in the registry. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 47] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 6. Security Considerations Language tags used in content negotiation, like any other information exchanged on the Internet, might be a source of concern because they might be used to infer the nationality of the sender, and thus identify potential targets for surveillance. This is a special case of the general problem that anything sent is visible to the receiving party and possibly to third parties as well. It is useful to be aware that such concerns can exist in some cases. The evaluation of the exact magnitude of the threat, and any possible countermeasures, is left to each application protocol (see BCP 72 [RFC3552] for best current practice guidance on security threats and defenses). The language tag associated with a particular information item is of no consequence whatsoever in determining whether that content might contain possible homographs. The fact that a text is tagged as being in one language or using a particular script subtag provides no assurance whatsoever that it does not contain characters from scripts other than the one(s) associated with or specified by that language tag. Since there is no limit to the number of variant, private use, and extension subtags, and consequently no limit on the possible length of a tag, implementations need to guard against buffer overflow attacks. See Section 4.3 for details on language tag truncation, which can occur as a consequence of defenses against buffer overflow. Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see: Section 3.6) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 48] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 7. Character Set Considerations The syntax in this document requires that language tags use only the characters A-Z, a-z, 0-9, and HYPHEN-MINUS, which are present in most character sets, so the composition of language tags should not have any character set issues. Rendering of characters based on the content of a language tag is not addressed in this memo. Historically, some languages have relied on the use of specific character sets or other information in order to infer how a specific character should be rendered (notably this applies to language and culture specific variations of Han ideographs as used in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean). When language tags are applied to spans of text, rendering engines can use that information in deciding which font to use in the absence of other information, particularly where languages with distinct writing traditions use the same characters. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 49] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 8. Changes from RFC 3066 The main goals for this revision of language tags were the following: *Compatibility.* All valid RFC 3066 language tags (including those in the IANA registry) remain valid in this specification. Thus there is complete backward compatibility of this specification with existing content. In addition, this document defines language tags in such as way as to ensure future compatibility, and processors based solely on the RFC 3066 ABNF (such as those described in [XMLSchema]) will be able to process tags described by this document. *Stability.* Because of the changes in underlying ISO standards, a valid RFC 3066 language tag may become invalid (or have its meaning change) at a later date. With so much of the world's computing infrastructure dependent on language tags, this is simply unacceptable: it invalidates content that may have an extensive shelf-life. In this specification, once a language tag is valid, it remains valid forever. Previously, there was no way to determine when two tags were equivalent. This specification provides a stable mechanism for doing so, through the use of canonical forms. These are also stable, so that implementations can depend on the use of canonical forms to assess equivalency. *Validity.* The structure of language tags defined by this document makes it possible to determine if a particular tag is well-formed without regard for the actual content or "meaning" of the tag as a whole. This is important because the registry and underlying standards change over time. In addition, it must be possible to determine if a tag is valid (or not) for a given point in time in order to provide reproducible, testable results. This process must not be error-prone; otherwise even intelligent people will generate implementations that give different results. This specification provides for that by having a single data file, with specific versioning information, so that the validity of language tags at any point in time can be precisely determined (instead of interpolating values from many separate sources). *Extensibility.* It is important to be able to differentiate between written forms of language -- for many implementations this is more important than distinguishing between spoken variants of a language. Languages are written in a wide variety of different scripts, so this document provides for the generative use of ISO 15924 script codes. Like the generative use of ISO language and country codes in RFC 3066, this allows combinations to be produced without resorting to the registration process. The addition of UN codes provides for the generation of language tags with regional scope, which is also required for information technology. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 50] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The recast of the registry from containing whole language tags to subtags is a key part of this. An important feature of RFC 3066 was that it allowed generative use of subtags. This allows people to meaningfully use generated tags, without the delays in registering whole tags, and the burden on the registry of having to supply all of the combinations that people may find useful. Because of the widespread use of language tags, it is potentially disruptive to have periodic revisions of the core specification, despite demonstrated need. The extension mechanism provides for a way for independent RFCs to define extensions to language tags. These extensions have a very constrained, well-defined structure to prevent extensions from interfering with implementations of language tags defined in this document. The document also anticipates features of ISO 639-3 with the addition of the extended language subtags, as well as the possibility of other ISO 639 parts becoming useful for the formation of language tags in the future. The use and definition of private use tags has also been modified, to allow people to move as much information as possible out of private use tags, and into the regular structure. The goal is to dramatically reduce the need to produce a revision of this document in the future. The specific changes in this document to meet these goals are: o Defines the ABNF and rules for subtags so that the category of all subtags can be determined without reference to the registry. o Adds the concept of well-formed vs. validating processors, defining the rules by which an implementation can claim to be one or the other. o Replaces the IANA language tag registry with a language subtag registry that provides a complete list of valid subtags in the IANA registry. This allows for robust implementation and ease of maintenance. The language subtag registry becomes the canonical source for forming language tags. o Provides a process that guarantees stability of language tags, by handling reuse of values by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 in the event that they register a previously used value for a new purpose. o Allows ISO 15924 script code subtags and allows them to be used generatively. Defines a method for indicating in the registry when script subtags are necessary for a given language tag. o Adds the concept of a variant subtag and allows variants to be used generatively. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 51] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 o Adds the ability to use a class of UN M.49 tags for supra- national regions and to resolve conflicts in the assignment of ISO 3166 codes. o Defines the private-use tags in ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 as the mechanism for creating private-use language, script, and region subtags respectively. o Adds a well-defined extension mechanism. o Defines an extended language subtag, possibly for use with certain anticipated features of ISO 639-3. Ed Note: The following items are provided for the convenience of reviewers and will be removed from the final document. Changes between draft-ietf-ltru-registry-05 and this version are: o Changes to the initial population rules to pre-register four subtags. This included changing all the variant examples to use just those four subtags (nedis, rozaj, 1996, and 1901) in appropriate ways. It also includes substandtial wordsmithing of the rules on handling RFC 3066 grandfathered/redundant registrations (A.Phillips) o Rewrote the introduction to use "tag" instead of many (long, convoluted) synonyms and to generally simplify the text. (thread of #944) (M.Duerst, A.Phillips) o Added an introduction to Section 2 (moved from Section 4.2). (M.Duerst) o Reorganized the resulting Section 4.2. o Divided Section 4.3 by added two subsections, moving paragraphs to fit into the proper sub-section. Made the actual requirements into a list so that they would be very visible. (I.McDonald) o Added the processing instruction symrefs=3D'yes' (F.Ellermann) o Moved Length Considerations from Section 2.1 to Section 4.3. Some text was moved or reorganized as a result and a small change was made in Section 4.1 (Choice) to ensure that no information was lost. (A.Phillips) o Added a small description of each subtag type to the sub-section on each subtag in Section 2.1. (F.Charles) Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 52] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 o Modified the restriction on using extended language subtags in Section 2.2.2 so that it is clearer. (J.Cowan) Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 53] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 9. References 9.1 Normative References [ISO639-1] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639- 1:2002, Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 1: Alpha-2 code", ISO Standard 639, 2002, . [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639- 2:1998 - Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code - edition 1", August 1988, . [ISO15924] ISO TC46/WG3, "ISO 15924:2003 (E/F) - Codes for the representation of names of scripts", January 2004, . [ISO3166] International Organization for Standardization, "Codes for the representation of names of countries, 3rd edition", ISO Standard 3166, August 1988, . [UN_M.49] Statistical Division, United Nations, "Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use", UN Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use, Revision 4 (United Nations publication, Sales No. 98.XVII.9, June 1999, . [ISO10646] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO/IEC 10646-1:2000. Information technology -- Universal Multiple-Octet Coded Character Set (UCS) -- Part 1: Architecture and Basic Multilingual Plane and ISO/IEC 10646-2:2001. Information technology -- Universal Multiple-Octet Coded Character Set (UCS) -- Part 2: Supplementary Planes, as, from time to time, amended, replaced by a new edition or expanded by the addition of new parts", 2000, . [RFC2234bis] Crocker, D. and P. Overell, "Augmented BNF for Syntax Specifications: ABNF", draft-crocker-abnf-rfc2234bis-00 (work in progress), March 2005. [RFC2026] Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- Revision 3", BCP 9, RFC 2026, October 1996. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 54] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 [RFC2028] Hovey, R. and S. Bradner, "The Organizations Involved in the IETF Standards Process", BCP 11, RFC 2028, October 1996. [RFC2047] Moore, K., "MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions) Part Three: Message Header Extensions for Non-ASCII Text", RFC 2047, November 1996. [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. [RFC2434] Narten, T. and H. Alvestrand, "Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs", BCP 26, RFC 2434, October 1998. [RFC2781] Hoffman, P. and F. Yergeau, "UTF-16, an encoding of ISO 10646", RFC 2781, February 2000. [RFC2860] Carpenter, B., Baker, F., and M. Roberts, "Memorandum of Understanding Concerning the Technical Work of the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority", RFC 2860, June 2000. [RFC3339] Klyne, G. and C. Newman, "Date and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", RFC 3339, July 2002. [RFC3552] Rescorla, E. and B. Korver, "Guidelines for Writing RFC Text on Security Considerations", BCP 72, RFC 3552, July 2003. 9.2 Informative References [iso639.principles] ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee, "ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee: Working principles for ISO 639 maintenance", March 2000, . [record-jar] Raymond, E., "The Art of Unix Programming", 2003. [XML10] Bray (et al), T., "Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0", 02 2004. [XMLSchema] Biron, P., Ed. and A. Malhotra, Ed., "XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition", 10 2004, < http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/>. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 55] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 [Unicode] Unicode Consortium, "The Unicode Consortium. The Unicode Standard, Version 4.1.0, defined by: The Unicode Standard, Version 4.0 (Boston, MA, Addison-Wesley, 2003. ISBN 0-321- 18578-1), as amended by Unicode 4.0.1 (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.1) and by Unicode 4.1.0 (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.1.0).", March 2005. [RFC1766] Alvestrand, H., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", RFC 1766, March 1995. [RFC2231] Freed, N. and K. Moore, "MIME Parameter Value and Encoded Word Extensions: Character Sets, Languages, and Continuations", RFC 2231, November 1997. [RFC3066] Alvestrand, H., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", BCP 47, RFC 3066, January 2001. Authors' Addresses Addison Phillips (editor) Quest Software Email: addison.phillips@quest.com Mark Davis (editor) IBM Email: mark.davis@us.ibm.com Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 56] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Appendix A. Acknowledgements Any list of contributors is bound to be incomplete; please regard the following as only a selection from the group of people who have contributed to make this document what it is today. The contributors to RFC 3066 and RFC 1766, the precursors of this document, made enormous contributions directly or indirectly to this document and are generally responsible for the success of language tags. The following people (in alphabetical order) contributed to this document or to RFCs 1766 and 3066: Glenn Adams, Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Tim Berners-Lee, Marc Blanchet, Nathaniel Borenstein, Eric Brunner, Sean M. Burke, M.T. Carrasco Benitez, Jeremy Carroll, John Clews, Jim Conklin, Peter Constable, John Cowan, Mark Crispin, Dave Crocker, Martin Duerst, Frank Ellerman, Michael Everson, Doug Ewell, Ned Freed, Tim Goodwin, Dirk- Willem van Gulik, Marion Gunn, Joel Halpren, Elliotte Rusty Harold, Paul Hoffman, Scott Hollenbeck, Richard Ishida, Olle Jarnefors, Kent Karlsson, John Klensin, Alain LaBonte, Eric Mader, Ira McDonald, Keith Moore, Chris Newman, Masataka Ohta, Randy Presuhn, George Rhoten, Markus Scherer, Keld Jorn Simonsen, Thierry Sourbier, Otto Stolz, Tex Texin, Andrea Vine, Rhys Weatherley, Misha Wolf, Francois Yergeau and many, many others. Very special thanks must go to Harald Tveit Alvestrand, who originated RFCs 1766 and 3066, and without whom this document would not have been possible. Special thanks must go to Michael Everson, who has served as language tag reviewer for almost the complete period since the publication of RFC 1766. Special thanks to Doug Ewell, for his production of the first complete subtag registry, and his work in producing a test parser for verifying language tags. Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 57] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Appendix B. Examples of Language Tags (Informative) Simple language subtag: de (German) fr (French) ja (Japanese) i-enochian (example of a grandfathered tag) Language subtag plus Script subtag: zh-Hant (Chinese written using the Traditional Chinese script) zh-Hans (Chinese written using the Simplified Chinese script) sr-Cyrl (Serbian written using the Cyrillic script) sr-Latn (Serbian written using the Latin script) Language-Script-Region: zh-Hans-CN (Chinese written using the Simplified script as used in mainland China) sr-Latn-CS (Serbian written using the Latin script as used in Serbia and Montenegro) Language-Variant: sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian sl-nedis (Nadiza dialect of Slovenian) Language-Region-Variant: de-CH-1901 (German as used in Switzerland using the 1901 variant [othography]) sl-IT-nedis (Slovenian as used in Italy, Nadiza dialect) Language-Script-Region-Variant: Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 58] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 sl-Latn-IT-nedis (Nadiza dialect of Slovenian written using the Latin script as used in Italy. Note that this tag is NOT RECOMMENDED because subtag 'sl' has a Suppress-Script value of 'Latn') Language-Region: de-DE (German for Germany) en-US (English as used in the United States) es-419 (Spanish for Latin America and Caribbean region using the UN region code) Private-use subtags: de-CH-x-phonebk az-Arab-x-AZE-derbend Extended language subtags (examples ONLY: extended languages MUST be defined by revision or update to this document): zh-min zh-min-nan-Hant-CN Private-use registry values: x-whatever (private use using the singleton 'x') qaa-Qaaa-QM-x-southern (all private tags) de-Qaaa (German, with a private script) sr-Latn-QM (Serbian, Latin-script, private region) sr-Qaaa-CS (Serbian, private script, for Serbia and Montenegro) Tags that use extensions (examples ONLY: extensions MUST be defined by revision or update to this document or by RFC): en-US-u-islamCal zh-CN-a-myExt-x-private Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 59] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 en-a-myExt-b-another Some Invalid Tags: de-419-DE (two region tags) a-DE (use of a single character subtag in primary position; note that there are a few grandfathered tags that start with "i-" that are valid) ar-a-aaa-b-bbb-a-ccc (two extensions with same single letter prefix) Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 60] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Appendix C. Example Registry Example Registry File-Date: 2005-04-18 %% Type: language Subtag: aa Description: Afar Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: language Subtag: ab Description: Abkhazian Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: language Subtag: ae Description: Avestan Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: language Subtag: ar Description: Arabic Added: 2004-07-06 Suppress-Script: Arab Comment: Arabic text is usually written in Arabic script %% Type: language Subtag: qaa..qtz Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2004-08-01 Comment: Use private use codes in preference to the x- singleton for primary language Comment: This is an example of two comments. %% Type: script Subtag: Arab Description: Arabic Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: script Subtag: Armn Description: Armenian Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: script Subtag: Bali Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 61] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Description: Balinese Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: script Subtag: Batk Description: Batak Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: region Subtag: AA Description: PRIVATE USE Added: 2004-08-01 %% Type: region Subtag: AD Description: Andorra Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: region Subtag: AE Description: United Arab Emirates Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: region Subtag: AX Description: Åland Islands Added: 2004-07-06 Comments: The description shows a Unicode escape for the letter A-ring. %% Type: region Subtag: 001 Description: World Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: region Subtag: 002 Description: Africa Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: region Subtag: 003 Description: North America Added: 2004-07-06 %% Type: variant Subtag: 1901 Description: Traditional German Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 62] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 orthography Added: 2004-09-09 Prefix: de Comment: %% Type: variant Subtag: nedis Description: Nadiza dialect Description: Natisone dialect Added: 2003-10-09 Prefix: sl %% Type: grandfathered Tag: art-lojban Description: Lojban Added: 2001-11-11 Canonical: jbo Deprecated: 2003-09-02 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: en-GB-oed Description: English, Oxford English Dictionary spelling Added: 2003-07-09 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-ami Description: 'Amis Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: grandfathered Tag: i-bnn Description: Bunun Added: 1999-05-25 %% Type: redundant Tag: az-Arab Description: Azerbaijani in Arabic script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Type: redundant Tag: az-Cyrl Description: Azerbaijani in Cyrillic script Added: 2003-05-30 %% Figure 9: Example of the Registry Format Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 63] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Intellectual Property Statement The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. 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Phillips & Davis Expires December 25, 2005 [Page 64] =0C --=_mixed 006FD0AB8825702A_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_mixed 006FD0AB8825702A_=-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 16:48:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlv6H-0000nZ-3R; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:48:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlv6C-0000nU-46 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:48:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA23726 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlvUm-0004sy-EI for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:53 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:48:17 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:48:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:48:16 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV4+tw+CG1nxpRORdqW7WZOZna+KgAAGTgA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 20:48:17.0178 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C3567A0:01C578FE] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com > The draft currently reads: >=20 > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') as used in the UN-defined Latin > America and Caribbean region ('419')." >=20 > The wording here seems to imply that this variant of Spanish is used > throughout the regions listed -- that's not entirely true. The > registration was intended to identify a *neutral* version of Spanish very > commonly used by content localizers to serve the regions mentioned above, > but this does not mean es-419 is "as used" by locals in the region itself. The tag you have requested and the purpose you have in mind for it fits within what the architects here have intended. The wording in the draft just doesn't reflect this particular scenario well. That's because boilerplate wording is being used in relation to region subtags -- "as used in" -- with the hope that it is general enough to fit all the cases region subtags are used. Most uses of region subtags deal with either (i) dialect distinctions (most typically lexicon) associated with a region, or (ii) spelling distinctions associated with a region (or both). This is neither. It's not that "es-419" corresponds to a language variety common to that region; it's that "es-419" characterizes the linguistic qualities of the particular information object: that it's considered useful throughout that region. I'd suggest the wording for this particular example be changed to: "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') that is usable throughout the UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). I'd also change the intro paragraph to 2.2.4: Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic characteristics associated with a country or geographic region. Typically, a region subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or usage, or region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also be used to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is appropriate for use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content tailored to be useful throughout Latin America. The following rules apply to region subtags: Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 16:56:35 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvE2-0002bv-ME; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:56:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvDv-0002aS-CQ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:56:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24237; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlvcT-000555-Cf; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:21:51 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:56:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:56:07 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8174@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV4+k/5EeGCV5npQQuZWlV9IN7QmwAAC0Ew From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 20:56:07.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[24D59D60:01C578FF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org, internet-drafts@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org A language tag is essentially an assertion about a specific piece of = content (or request for content, in the case of a language range).=20 'es-419' asserts that the given document (text, recording, subtitles, = semaphore flag waving, etc...) is in Spanish and that it was created for = use or accessibility in the broad '419' region (as opposed to asserting = that it was tailored for 'CO' [Columbia] and might or might not be = intelligible to someone in, say, Argentina, since many people in = Argentina also speak a variety of Spanish).=20 Thus "Spanish as used in the UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean = region" is correct from the point of view that it presumably avoids = local idioms to the extent this is possible and whose vocabulary more = closely mirrors New World usage than for other Spanish speaking regions = of the globe. The locution in the draft was chosen to avoid implying an often = incorrect linkage between a specific nation, state, or region and a = specific dialect native to a region. That is, it would be incorrect to = refer to "es-419" as "Latin American Spanish". You've seen this in = action in this thread: "de-CH" is not (necessarily) "Swiss German". It = is "German as used in Switzerland" (i.e. a variation on German peculiar = to Switzerland and/or Swiss people). On the other hand, the "as used in" phrase does, as you say, imply = actual usage. Perhaps "Spanish appropriate for the UN-defined Latin = America and Caribbean region"? Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] > Sent: 2005?6?24? 13:18 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: internet-drafts@ietf.org; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 >=20 > Addison, >=20 > I haven't reviewed the full-text of your draft in detail, but I have = one > comment on es-419. (I hope this point of distinction doesn't interfere > with my own registration request!) >=20 > The draft currently reads: >=20 > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') as used in the UN-defined Latin > America and Caribbean region ('419')." >=20 > The wording here seems to imply that this variant of Spanish is used > throughout the regions listed -- that's not entirely true. The > registration was intended to identify a *neutral* version of Spanish = very > commonly used by content localizers to serve the regions mentioned = above, > but this does not mean es-419 is "as used" by locals in the region = itself. >=20 >=20 > es-419 is intended to codify the version of Spanish most localizers = intend > for use in Latin American and the Caribbean, even though it may not > conform to specific regional distinctions and dialects. It is distinct > from Castilian Spanish. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Karen Broome > Metadata Systems Designer > Sony Pictures Entertainment > 310.244.4384 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Addison Phillips" > Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > 06/24/2005 07:13 AM >=20 >=20 > To: > cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 >=20 >=20 > Dear Editor, >=20 > Please find attached draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06 in text format. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com >=20 > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 16:57:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvFO-0002ky-DV; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:57:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvFN-0002kG-2K for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:57:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24371 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:57:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlvdy-00059e-Mt for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:23:23 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:57:47 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:57:46 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8175@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV4+tw+CG1nxpRORdqW7WZOZna+KgAAGTgAAAD5xYA= From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Peter Constable" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 20:57:47.0166 (UTC) FILETIME=[5FF2ABE0:01C578FF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org See my recent post that crossed with this one on the wire :-). I'll incorporate the suggested intro text. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: 2005?6?24? 13:48 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 >=20 > > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] > On Behalf Of > > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com >=20 > > The draft currently reads: > > > > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') as used in the UN-defined = Latin > > America and Caribbean region ('419')." > > > > The wording here seems to imply that this variant of Spanish is used > > throughout the regions listed -- that's not entirely true. The > > registration was intended to identify a *neutral* version of Spanish > very > > commonly used by content localizers to serve the regions mentioned > above, > > but this does not mean es-419 is "as used" by locals in the region > itself. >=20 > The tag you have requested and the purpose you have in mind for it = fits > within what the architects here have intended. The wording in the = draft > just doesn't reflect this particular scenario well. That's because > boilerplate wording is being used in relation to region subtags -- "as > used in" -- with the hope that it is general enough to fit all the = cases > region subtags are used. Most uses of region subtags deal with either > (i) dialect distinctions (most typically lexicon) associated with a > region, or (ii) spelling distinctions associated with a region (or > both). This is neither. It's not that "es-419" corresponds to a = language > variety common to that region; it's that "es-419" characterizes the > linguistic qualities of the particular information object: that it's > considered useful throughout that region. >=20 > I'd suggest the wording for this particular example be changed to: >=20 > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') that is usable throughout the > UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). >=20 > I'd also change the intro paragraph to 2.2.4: >=20 > > Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic characteristics > associated with a country or geographic region. Typically, a region > subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or usage, or > region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also be used > to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is appropriate for > use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content tailored to be > useful throughout Latin America. >=20 > The following rules apply to region subtags: > >=20 >=20 >=20 > Peter Constable >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 16:58:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvFb-0002p4-1z; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:58:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvFW-0002no-BC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:58:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA24386 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:58:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Received: from mail-lon.bigfish.com ([213.206.137.197] helo=mail3-lon-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlve6-00059w-Rj for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:23:32 -0400 Received: from mail3-lon.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail3-lon-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D4631801E; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:57:51 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail3-lon.bigfish.com (MessageSwitch) id 1119646671524148_13976; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:57:51 +0000 (UCT) Received: from usmta02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.248.62]) by mail3-lon.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5854A317FF7; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:57:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by usmta02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.12) with SMTP id 2005062414050971:195412 ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:05:09 -0700 To: "Peter Constable" Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:54:55 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/24/2005 13:54:57, Serialize complete at 06/24/2005 13:54:57, Itemize by SMTP Server on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/24/2005 02:05:09 PM, Serialize by Router on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/24/2005 02:05:10 PM, Serialize complete at 06/24/2005 02:05:10 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thank you, Peter. Your revision looks good to me. I understand the intention of the tag structure and the example, but didn't want the specific intention of the es-419 tag to be misrepresented. I'll read the draft more thoroughly when I get a chance and let you know if I have any other comments. Cheers! - Karen "Peter Constable" Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 06/24/2005 01:48 PM To: cc: Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com > The draft currently reads: > > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') as used in the UN-defined Latin > America and Caribbean region ('419')." > > The wording here seems to imply that this variant of Spanish is used > throughout the regions listed -- that's not entirely true. The > registration was intended to identify a *neutral* version of Spanish very > commonly used by content localizers to serve the regions mentioned above, > but this does not mean es-419 is "as used" by locals in the region itself. The tag you have requested and the purpose you have in mind for it fits within what the architects here have intended. The wording in the draft just doesn't reflect this particular scenario well. That's because boilerplate wording is being used in relation to region subtags -- "as used in" -- with the hope that it is general enough to fit all the cases region subtags are used. Most uses of region subtags deal with either (i) dialect distinctions (most typically lexicon) associated with a region, or (ii) spelling distinctions associated with a region (or both). This is neither. It's not that "es-419" corresponds to a language variety common to that region; it's that "es-419" characterizes the linguistic qualities of the particular information object: that it's considered useful throughout that region. I'd suggest the wording for this particular example be changed to: "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') that is usable throughout the UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). I'd also change the intro paragraph to 2.2.4: Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic characteristics associated with a country or geographic region. Typically, a region subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or usage, or region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also be used to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is appropriate for use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content tailored to be useful throughout Latin America. The following rules apply to region subtags: Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 17:05:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvMz-0005Um-UR; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:05:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlvMy-0005QU-0O for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:05:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25097 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlvlY-0005Od-L0 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:31:13 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-100.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.100] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DlvMr-0002HU-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:05:41 -0400 Message-ID: <003901c57901$0009d620$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:09:24 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As a contributor... > From: "Peter Constable" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 1:48 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 ... > I'd suggest the wording for this particular example be changed to: > > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') that is usable throughout the > UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). > > I'd also change the intro paragraph to 2.2.4: > > > Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic characteristics > associated with a country or geographic region. Typically, a region > subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or usage, or > region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also be used > to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is appropriate for > use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content tailored to be > useful throughout Latin America. > > The following rules apply to region subtags: > Sounds good to me. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 17:48:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlw2Z-0007j8-Vg; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:48:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlw2Y-0007j3-Gv for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:48:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28260 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlwR9-0006cn-E3 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:14:11 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:48:31 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB81BD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV5APZasrj/kYtvQPabJ0+eU2TIewAA00gw From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 21:48:31.0923 (UTC) FILETIME=[76C3B830:01C57906] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Resulting changes are in draft-07. To wit: 1. Changed the intro to 'region' as follows (slightly different from = Peter's version): Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic variations associated = with or appropriate to a specific country, territory, or region. = Typically, a region subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or = usage, or region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also = be used to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is = appropriate for use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content = tailored to be useful throughout Latin America. 2. Changed the example of 'es-419' to use the phrase I suggests: "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') appropriate = to the UN-defined=20 Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). --- In other news, I modified the Section 3.7 (Initialization of the = Registry). The rules are now more consistent with the creation of an = Internet-Draft and actually refer to the editor of that document. = Notably I broke out the Date A/Date B rules and addressed them to the = editor. Then I spelled out handling of UN M.49 codes as outlined in my = previous email. Finally, I moved the instructions on handling RFC 3066 = registrations down so that they can refer back to the list of initial = subtags. The initial-registry draft is now referred (it is an informative = reference). The example registry appendix I removed (we have the real = thing to look at, why maintain two?) The only problem with this section is that there are two sets of = instructions on forwarding the initial registry. Any thoughts on which = set to use? Editor's copies, as always, on inter-locale: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: 2005?6?24? 14:09 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 >=20 > Hi - >=20 > As a contributor... >=20 > > From: "Peter Constable" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 1:48 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 > ... > > I'd suggest the wording for this particular example be changed to: > > > > "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') that is usable throughout the > > UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). > > > > I'd also change the intro paragraph to 2.2.4: > > > > > > Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic characteristics > > associated with a country or geographic region. Typically, a region > > subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or usage, or > > region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also be = used > > to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is appropriate = for > > use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content tailored to = be > > useful throughout Latin America. > > > > The following rules apply to region subtags: > > >=20 > Sounds good to me. >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 18:15:29 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlwPP-0005Nl-R0; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:12:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlwPN-0005Ng-4e for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:12:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00228 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlwny-0007EH-Ah for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:37:47 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-100.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.100] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DlwPG-0000GX-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:12:14 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c5790a$49f11f60$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB81BD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:15:53 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - As a contributor... > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 2:48 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 ... > The only problem with this section is that there are two sets > of instructions on forwarding the initial registry. Any thoughts on which set to use? I suggest deleting the (superfluous) paragraph: There MUST be a reasonable period in which the community can comment on the proposed initial registry, which SHALL be no less than four weeks in length. At the completion of this period, the chair(s) will notify iana@iana.org and the ltru and ietf-languages mail lists that the task is complete and forward the necessary materials to IANA for publication. I also suggest reducing the following paragraphs The initial registry will be created by the LTRU working group. Using the instructions in this document, the working group will prepare an Informational RFC by creating a series of Internet-Drafts containing the prototype registry according to the rules in Sections 4.2.2 and 4.2.3 and subject to IESG review as described in Section 6.1.1 of [RFC2026]. (See [initial-registry]) When the Internet-Draft containing the prototype registry has been approved by the IESG for publication as an RFC, the document will be forwarded to IANA, which will post the contents of the new registry on-line. to: The initial registry provided to IANA is in [initial-registry]. Since the two documents really should go through the process as a pair, we really don't need to burden the registry-draft with "one shot" material. The other material about how the initial registry is created will only be of historical value. It's good to have WG consensus about how we fill in the initial registry i-d, but I don't see any great need or value in including it in the registry draft. It doesn't hurt, other than cluttering the document, but if it went away, or was moved to the initial registry draft, I wouldn't object. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 18:26:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlwcq-0000ZZ-9g; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:26:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlwcp-0000ZS-EB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:26:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02014 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlx1R-0007ha-9B for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:51:41 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:26:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:26:00 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB81FC@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06) Thread-Index: AcV5Cfmf7w8oQ9dmQPWOJeyLPx2TOgAAFcaQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2005 22:26:01.0190 (UTC) FILETIME=[B36EA060:01C5790B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org The rules for creating the initial registry are somewhat important: they = have certainly been the cause for a good bit of debate. Nonetheless, I = don't see burdening ourselves with extra process material that the = initial registry draft can bother itself with. I have reshaped the paragraphs again, following the suggestions below. = This material can be moved to the initial-registry, if that is what's = desired. Doug can take the XML for this section as appropriate and, when = it is safely in draft-initial-registry, I'll delete it. BTW> I notice that the initial registry draft isn't online yet. Do the = co-chairs need to approve its publication (since it is the first one???) Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: vendredi 24 juin 2005 15:16 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 >=20 > Hi - >=20 > As a contributor... >=20 > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 2:48 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 > ... > > The only problem with this section is that there are two sets > > of instructions on forwarding the initial registry. Any thoughts on > which set to use? >=20 > I suggest deleting the (superfluous) paragraph: > There MUST be a reasonable period in which the community can = comment > on the proposed initial registry, which SHALL be no less than four > weeks in length. At the completion of this period, the chair(s) = will > notify iana@iana.org and the ltru and ietf-languages mail lists = that > the task is complete and forward the necessary materials to IANA = for > publication. >=20 > I also suggest reducing the following paragraphs >=20 > The initial registry will be created by the LTRU working group. > Using the instructions in this document, the working group will > prepare an Informational RFC by creating a series of = Internet-Drafts > containing the prototype registry according to the rules in = Sections > 4.2.2 and 4.2.3 and subject to IESG review as described in Section > 6.1.1 of [RFC2026]. (See [initial-registry]) >=20 > When the Internet-Draft containing the prototype registry has been > approved by the IESG for publication as an RFC, the document will = be > forwarded to IANA, which will post the contents of the new registry > on-line. >=20 > to: > The initial registry provided to IANA is in [initial-registry]. >=20 > Since the two documents really should go through the process as a = pair, > we really don't need to burden the registry-draft with "one shot" = material. > The other material about how the initial registry is created will only = be > of > historical value. It's good to have WG consensus about how we fill in = the > initial registry i-d, but I don't see any great need or value in = including > it > in the registry draft. It doesn't hurt, other than cluttering the > document, > but if it went away, or was moved to the initial registry draft, I > wouldn't object. >=20 > Randy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 18:46:51 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlwwl-0005WY-CL; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:46:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlwwk-0005WM-O5 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:46:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03754 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.65]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlxLM-0008L7-CD for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:12:17 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-100.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.100] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dlwwh-00022g-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:46:47 -0400 Message-ID: <001e01c5790f$1efb8e80$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB81FC@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:50:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Addison Phillips" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 3:26 PM > Subject: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06) ... > BTW I notice that the initial registry draft isn't online yet. > Do the co-chairs need to approve its publication (since it is the first one???) ... It was pre-approved, and additional approvals were sent on June 20 and 21. I just retrieved it from http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-00.txt and it appears in our charter page, so I think all is well. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 19:03:52 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlxDE-0001KL-LH; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:03:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlxDD-0001K7-TB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:03:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05674 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dlxbp-0000dQ-63 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:29:18 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ON3a1N034444 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:03:36 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5ON3ZcC176160 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:03:35 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5ON3ZX9002026 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:03:35 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-125-205.mts.ibm.com [9.48.125.205]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5ON3YIX001989; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:03:35 -0600 Message-ID: <082a01c57910$f22250e0$e37c3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Randy Presuhn" , References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB81FC@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRUregistry draft-06) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:03:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e33.co.us.ibm.com id j5ON3a1N034444 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I agree, and also suggest that Doug move the material to the registry dra= ft. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Randy Presuhn" ; Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 15:26 Subject: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRUregistry draft-06) The rules for creating the initial registry are somewhat important: they have certainly been the cause for a good bit of debate. Nonetheless, I do= n't see burdening ourselves with extra process material that the initial registry draft can bother itself with. I have reshaped the paragraphs again, following the suggestions below. Th= is material can be moved to the initial-registry, if that is what's desired. Doug can take the XML for this section as appropriate and, when it is saf= ely in draft-initial-registry, I'll delete it. BTW> I notice that the initial registry draft isn't online yet. Do the co-chairs need to approve its publication (since it is the first one???) Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: vendredi 24 juin 2005 15:16 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 > > Hi - > > As a contributor... > > > From: "Addison Phillips" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 2:48 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 > ... > > The only problem with this section is that there are two sets > > of instructions on forwarding the initial registry. Any thoughts on > which set to use? > > I suggest deleting the (superfluous) paragraph: > There MUST be a reasonable period in which the community can comment > on the proposed initial registry, which SHALL be no less than four > weeks in length. At the completion of this period, the chair(s) wil= l > notify iana@iana.org and the ltru and ietf-languages mail lists that > the task is complete and forward the necessary materials to IANA for > publication. > > I also suggest reducing the following paragraphs > > The initial registry will be created by the LTRU working group. > Using the instructions in this document, the working group will > prepare an Informational RFC by creating a series of Internet-Drafts > containing the prototype registry according to the rules in Sections > 4.2.2 and 4.2.3 and subject to IESG review as described in Section > 6.1.1 of [RFC2026]. (See [initial-registry]) > > When the Internet-Draft containing the prototype registry has been > approved by the IESG for publication as an RFC, the document will be > forwarded to IANA, which will post the contents of the new registry > on-line. > > to: > The initial registry provided to IANA is in [initial-registry]. > > Since the two documents really should go through the process as a pair, > we really don't need to burden the registry-draft with "one shot" material. > The other material about how the initial registry is created will only = be > of > historical value. It's good to have WG consensus about how we fill in = the > initial registry i-d, but I don't see any great need or value in includ= ing > it > in the registry draft. It doesn't hurt, other than cluttering the > document, > but if it went away, or was moved to the initial registry draft, I > wouldn't object. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 19:36:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlxiu-0002eS-B4; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:36:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dlxiq-0002Zz-NI; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:36:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08763; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dly7S-0001cR-Pp; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:02:00 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dlxii-0004kC-RK; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:36:25 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050625011556.04f79020@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:30:10 +0200 To: "Addison Phillips" , From: r&d afrac Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8174@irvmbxw01.quest.c om> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8174@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: internet-drafts@ietf.org, ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I am sorry, Addison, this does not make sense. At 22:56 24/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: >'es-419' asserts that the given document (text, recording, subtitles, >semaphore flag waving, etc...) is in Spanish No. It asserts that the author wanted to enter that flag because he assumed that this would be of use to the person reading the document if she known that tag. What is Spanish? I only know the "es" is related to the string "Spanish/Espagnol" in ISO 639-1. All the rest is non documented emotional assumptions. >and that it was created for use or accessibility in the broad '419' region >(as opposed to asserting that it was tailored for 'CO' [Columbia] and >might or might not be intelligible to someone in, say, Argentina, since >many people in Argentina also speak a variety of Spanish). No. It was created for (this time you are correct, but in contradiction with your point above) people able/wanting to share in a language which may be associated in the mind of authors and readers with the '419' area. Geographical association are certainly correct for commercial agency contract or TV Broadcasting rights, not for Internet documents, not for human. This only documents there are two visions: 1. yours: the langtag says who has commercial rights on the content and related text processing tools 2. mine: the langtag permits people to indentify the cultural lingustic environment they want to share. This is what I documented in a previous mail: content vs. protocol rooted visions. At least you make it clear. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 20:18:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlyNf-0004Lc-6b; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:18:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DlyNe-0004LX-0F for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:18:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12234 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.124]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DlymF-0002td-Cc for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:44:09 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:18:29 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:18:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:18:28 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV5FbDKKWTeNxWiQii3zOmepjtadQAA+yIQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2005 00:18:29.0859 (UTC) FILETIME=[69F3CB30:01C5791B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of r&d > afrac > At 22:56 24/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: > >'es-419' asserts that the given document (text, recording, subtitles, > >semaphore flag waving, etc...) is in Spanish >=20 > No. It asserts that the author wanted to enter that flag because he assumed > that this would be of use to the person reading the document if she known > that tag. What is Spanish? I only know the "es" is related to the string > "Spanish/Espagnol" in ISO 639-1. All the rest is non documented emotional > assumptions. Well, we could delay completion of the draft while we debate Wittgenstein or even basic assumptions regarding epistemology, but I don't know how useful that would be. After all, how do I know when you say "author" or "is" or whatever that you mean the same thing that I think you mean? At *some* point, communicative interaction assumes a conventional semantics. This group has all along been assuming that it can treat the semantics of "Spanish" or "Latin America" as conventional. I understand that in strict terms that is simplistic, and that it may not correspond to what e.g. the WG responsible for ISO 3166 assume, but for purposes of development of this specification I believe the majority here consider it good enough. Since the start of work on RFC 1766, I don't know that this issue has come up until now. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Fri Jun 24 22:42:01 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dm0cL-0001y9-T3; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dm0cJ-0001y2-QH for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:41:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22561 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dm10x-0006x1-CI for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:07:28 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Dm0cH-0007wS-84; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:41:57 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050625040256.043689f0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:32:30 +0200 To: "Peter Constable" , From: r&d afrac Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 02:18 25/06/2005, Peter Constable wrote: >Well, we could delay completion of the draft while we debate >Wittgenstein or even basic assumptions regarding epistemology, but I >don't know how useful that would be. Useful enough to make the difference between confusion and utilisation (I mean by the users. For marketeers: the tags are good enough to report the locale of the computer used to generate the content).. >After all, how do I know when you >say "author" or "is" or whatever that you mean the same thing that I >think you mean? >At *some* point, communicative interaction assumes a conventional >semantics. The problem is that your semantic is the semantic of a text oriented linguist, mixing data and metadata and definitions in the three main cultural root areas (languages, modes and geography) .... Your conventional understanding is not the user conventional understanding. Because there are a multiplicity of lingual, modal, media, logical, etc. understandings. I would say this is supermarket. Not culture. >This group has all along been assuming that it can treat the semantics >of "Spanish" or "Latin America" as conventional. OK. please define this semantic. This is all what I ask for. Even if it does not match the need, at least it will be less confuse.... > I understand that in strict terms that is simplistic, and that it may > not correspond to what e.g. the WG responsible for ISO 3166 assume, OK. We agree that this WG does not intend to correspond to the Charter intent. This is no problem to me: this is exactly what Jon Postel did with ccTLDs; except that he said what ISO 3166 code were going to mean in his mind. You do not. Addison says in the same sentence: a warranty, a geography, an intent, a market... Up to now "cn" is CNNIC and "fr" is AFNIC. You have to say what it is for you. >but for purposes of development of this specification I believe the >majority here consider it good enough. I do not know where did you find that KISS meant imprecise and "good enough". To the contrary it means that simplicity and evidence come from the exact concept to be used at the exact place. Scalability requires that. "good enough for this specification" means scalability problems. This cannot be accepted for an RFC; except if that RFC indicates the limit of its scope and is scalable within that limit. This is what I ask. >Since the start of work on RFC 1766, I don't know that this issue has come >up until now. No one has used the langtag in the way you want to use it. I am perfectly happy with the lack of precision of RFC 3066 because no one wants to use it precisely. Harald never claimed anything else than to port ISO 639 codes in Internet environment. To identify languages. Not to warranty, assert, etc. No problem to leave for ever with RFC 3066 and to have tags for languages, country, market, scripts, rates, etc. Take care. jfc BTW, we both know that this Draft does not match the needs of the Internet, does not match the Charter and will create more confusion and conflict that anything else. I do not want you to accept it. But that at the same time that it represents a lot of work and some or real interest if it was presented otherwise. And I accept it from the very beginning - so you know it is not trolling. I think my QED mail describes a solution which will work - including for your strategy - if you do not claim to replace RFC 3066. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 25 13:16:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmEGM-0002G9-P0; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:16:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmEGM-0002G4-2R for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:16:14 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19410 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050625171542.YEJW29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:15:42 -0400 Message-ID: <004901c579a9$7fe25360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050624202350.YPIR4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:15:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: > Since the registry draft (section 2.2.4 of -06) gives the rules > specifying whether a given UN M.49 code may be added to the registry, > wouldn't it be sufficient for the purposes of the initial registry to > just supply the one such code (419) that is currently needed, leaving > requests for the addition of others up to those who find a use for > them? This would allow us to sidestep all this discussion of the > merits of individual codes on this list, moving it to ietf-languages > when our work is approved, where such discussion properly belongs. I really don't like this. It puts numeric region subtags into a completely different category from alphabetic ones, for no immediately obvious reason. Numeric region codes MAY be useful, are available in an existing standard, and SHOULD be available for language tagging without the need for users to register them individually. We (1) incorporate the ISO 639-1, 639-2, 15924, and 3166-1 code lists automatically, using the Date A/B rules, and (2) require users to request variants and extensions, which have no associated standard. UN M.49 codes should go into category (1), not a new category of their own somewhere between (1) and (2). The only controversy here seems to be whether to allow 062, not whether the entire class of numeric region codes should be included in the initial registry. The problem seems to be that the rules regarding Dates A and B (which of course don't use that exact terminology) require the initial registry to use "the date of the standard referenced in RFC 1766." That is Date A. Obviously the only ISO standards for which this makes sense are ISO 639-1 and 3166-1; the others didn't exist when RFC 1766 was published. Instead, for ISO 639-2 and 15924, we use the date of initial publication of each standard ("the dawn of time"). I don't really know whether UN M.49 existed as such on Date A, and I would have no possible way of determining what its contents were at any historical time, since UNSD does not maintain a change-history page on it. If we were building the initial registry from scratch now, instead of in June 2004, region subtag 062 would never have been included, since it was deleted last January. OTOH, if we had built it a few years ago, there might have been some additional codes that we don't have. How would we know? They don't publish a change history. I promised I would not fight to the death over deleting or keeping this one subtag, but whatever the solution is, it should *not* involve discarding all of the UN-based subtags (or almost all of them) and making users register them one by one. I think that is major overkill. Addison Phillips replied: > It would be possible to do so. The question is whether it would be > appropriate to do so. The point of incorporating the various standards > into the registry ab initio is to avoid the need to painstakingly > review all of the potential items later. I agree. > I favor being conservative about the codes we incorporate (on the > theory that ietf-languages is perfectly capable of resolving whether > to add any omissions, but that no one is permitted to remove badly > chosen inclusions), but not to the point of leaving out all of the > macro-regions. > > On that basis I would: > > 1. Follow the Date A/Date B rules to create a list of potential > candidates (i.e. what Doug has already done) > 2. Remove any that are questionable or controversial. That would be 062. We've already removed the others (003, 200, 830 through 833). > 3. Document in the initial-registry draft which ones those are (that > is, codes that are valid to register but were not initially > registered) Easy enough to do. > 4. Let ietf-languages and the process be used to incorporate those few > that are needed from that list (or later assignments) at a later date. I support this. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 25 14:01:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmEyE-00030m-Bk; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:01:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmEyC-00030g-Ue for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:01:32 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22710 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050625180101.ZUVQ29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:01:01 -0400 Message-ID: <005601c579af$c5976c00$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050625160534.BNMS4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Subject: Re: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:00:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: >> Doug can take the XML for this section as appropriate and, when it is >> safely in draft-initial-registry, I'll delete it. > > I agree, and also suggest that Doug move the material to the registry > draft. There have been a lot of editorial changes to the registry draft lately. What I think you and Addison mean by "this section" might not be the same as what you do mean. Somebody please send me a copy of the relevant material, or a reference as to draft number and section number, and I'll be happy to put it in draft-initial-01. Does anyone else have any feedback regarding initial-00? We've agreed that the de-??-1901 and de-??-1996 tags should have been redundant, not grandfathered, and there is a debate over the UN-based region subtags. And this section about how the repertoire was determined needs to be added. Anything else? -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 25 14:18:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmFEi-0006i8-Rf; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmFEi-0006i3-9u for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24259 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmFdT-0004vY-QN for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:44:13 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PIIPRX703898 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:25 -0400 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (d03av04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.170]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5PIIOcC137942 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:18:24 -0600 Received: from d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5PIIOSv013368 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:18:24 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-117-110.mts.ibm.com [9.48.117.110]) by d03av04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5PIIN8k013356; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:18:24 -0600 Message-ID: <092701c579b2$45c1b730$e37c3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050624202350.YPIR4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <004901c579a9$7fe25360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:18:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e32.co.us.ibm.com id j5PIIPRX703898 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I agree with Doug. My suggestion is that we go with the codes that are va= lid now. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:15 Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143,delete 062 > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > Since the registry draft (section 2.2.4 of -06) gives the rules > > specifying whether a given UN M.49 code may be added to the registry, > > wouldn't it be sufficient for the purposes of the initial registry to > > just supply the one such code (419) that is currently needed, leaving > > requests for the addition of others up to those who find a use for > > them? This would allow us to sidestep all this discussion of the > > merits of individual codes on this list, moving it to ietf-languages > > when our work is approved, where such discussion properly belongs. > > I really don't like this. It puts numeric region subtags into a > completely different category from alphabetic ones, for no immediately > obvious reason. > > Numeric region codes MAY be useful, are available in an existing > standard, and SHOULD be available for language tagging without the need > for users to register them individually. We (1) incorporate the ISO > 639-1, 639-2, 15924, and 3166-1 code lists automatically, using the Dat= e > A/B rules, and (2) require users to request variants and extensions, > which have no associated standard. UN M.49 codes should go into > category (1), not a new category of their own somewhere between (1) and > (2). > > The only controversy here seems to be whether to allow 062, not whether > the entire class of numeric region codes should be included in the > initial registry. > > The problem seems to be that the rules regarding Dates A and B (which o= f > course don't use that exact terminology) require the initial registry t= o > use "the date of the standard referenced in RFC 1766." That is Date A. > Obviously the only ISO standards for which this makes sense are ISO > 639-1 and 3166-1; the others didn't exist when RFC 1766 was published. > Instead, for ISO 639-2 and 15924, we use the date of initial publicatio= n > of each standard ("the dawn of time"). > > I don't really know whether UN M.49 existed as such on Date A, and I > would have no possible way of determining what its contents were at any > historical time, since UNSD does not maintain a change-history page on > it. > > If we were building the initial registry from scratch now, instead of i= n > June 2004, region subtag 062 would never have been included, since it > was deleted last January. OTOH, if we had built it a few years ago, > there might have been some additional codes that we don't have. How > would we know? They don't publish a change history. > > I promised I would not fight to the death over deleting or keeping this > one subtag, but whatever the solution is, it should *not* involve > discarding all of the UN-based subtags (or almost all of them) and > making users register them one by one. I think that is major overkill. > > Addison Phillips replied: > > > It would be possible to do so. The question is whether it would be > > appropriate to do so. The point of incorporating the various standard= s > > into the registry ab initio is to avoid the need to painstakingly > > review all of the potential items later. > > I agree. > > > I favor being conservative about the codes we incorporate (on the > > theory that ietf-languages is perfectly capable of resolving whether > > to add any omissions, but that no one is permitted to remove badly > > chosen inclusions), but not to the point of leaving out all of the > > macro-regions. > > > > On that basis I would: > > > > 1. Follow the Date A/Date B rules to create a list of potential > > candidates (i.e. what Doug has already done) > > 2. Remove any that are questionable or controversial. > > That would be 062. We've already removed the others (003, 200, 830 > through 833). > > > 3. Document in the initial-registry draft which ones those are (that > > is, codes that are valid to register but were not initially > > registered) > > Easy enough to do. > > > 4. Let ietf-languages and the process be used to incorporate those fe= w > > that are needed from that list (or later assignments) at a later date. > > I support this. > > -- > Doug Ewell > Fullerton, California > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 25 14:57:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmFqN-0005ip-Du; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:57:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmFqL-0005ik-RK for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:57:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27366 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmGF8-0005vH-2w for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:23:07 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DmFqC-0004aT-B0; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:57:20 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050625193215.055fcbf0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:57:14 +0200 To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 In-Reply-To: <004901c579a9$7fe25360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> References: <20050624202350.YPIR4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <004901c579a9$7fe25360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I really don't like this. It puts numeric region subtags into a >completely different category from alphabetic ones, for no immediately >obvious reason. Doug, all your arguments are good. They would be better if substantiated by the missing definition of what the subtags M.49 should stand for. But would we have read the Charter together we would commonly know you are right because Charter says: "For extensibility, it is expected that the document will describe how generative mechanisms could use ISO 15924 and UN M.49 codes without explicit registration of all combinations." jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sat Jun 25 17:58:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmIf9-00013g-Tq; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:58:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmIf8-00013L-3J for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:58:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09951 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmJ3v-0001la-ED for ltru@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:23:45 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:57:48 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C579D0.EC762769" Subject: RE: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission:LTRU registry draft-06) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:57:47 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8294@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Inital registry rules in registry draft (was: [Ltru] Submission:LTRU registry draft-06) Thread-Index: AcV5r/VG/0/UylEbRTqNvJI3DMZH7AAIM0ew From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------_=_NextPart_001_01C579D0.EC762769-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 26 11:24:56 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmZ0C-0005S2-L0; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:24:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmZ0A-0005Rw-NH for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:24:55 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02773 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmXfy-0004dR-HC for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:59:58 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:59:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:59:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:06:28 +0200 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: <42BEB664.27F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <20050624202350.YPIR4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> <004901c579a9$7fe25360$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <092701c579b2$45c1b730$e37c3009@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mark Davis wrote: > I agree with Doug. > My suggestion is that we go with the codes that > are valid now. ACK, that was the idea of date-B == NOW instead of date-B == 2005-01-01. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 26 16:15:25 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmdXJ-0006gh-NO; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:15:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmdXI-0006gc-Jj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:15:24 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA10040 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050626201453.EZUN24042.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:14:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01c57a8b$afa50ec0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:14:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Draft-01 of initial registry now up X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org A new editor's copy of draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01 is now available: http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01.txt http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01.html http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01.xml This version adds the section from the registry draft, explaining how the contents are determined, and corrects the problem with the de-??-1901 and -1996 tags being mis-classified. It does not add es-419 as a redundant tag, since that has not been approved by IANA yet, nor does it add region subtags 034 and 143 nor delete region subtag 062, since that issue is still unresolved. This has not yet been submitted to IANA, of course. All constructive comments are welcome. I'd especially like to know how WG members feel about Section 2: whether the wording makes sense in this context, whether the references seem right, and whether the registry contents in Section 3 do in fact follow the rules. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 26 20:09:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmhC1-00051G-CW; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:09:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmhBz-00050K-T2 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:09:40 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25662 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dmh5A-00004x-MO for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:02:36 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:02:36 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:02:36 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:03:43 +0200 Organization: Lines: 97 Message-ID: <42BF425F.782E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <001d01c57a8b$afa50ec0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Doug Ewell wrote: > nor does it add region subtags 034 and 143 nor delete region > subtag 062, since that issue is still unresolved. Hi Randy, could you please state that we want 034 and 143 IN and 062 OUT. > I'd especially like to know how WG members feel about Section > 2: whether the wording makes sense in this context You can't say "the editor MUST" while talking with yourself. How about: "The editor of the initial registry used" etc. You could also replace s/is/was/, s/are/were/ etc. describing what you've done. In the UN M.49 section get rid of all MAY, MUST, and MUST NOT, these keywords are unnecessary and undefined in your memo. Proposed text: Actual UN numeric codes assigned to "macro-geographical (continental)" regions were added to the IANA registry and thereby made valid for use in language tags. Note added "Actual", the added "regions", and s/MAY be/were/ The UN numeric codes for "economic groupings" or "other groupings," and the alphanumeric codes in Appendix X of the UN document, were not added to the registry. Here it's s/MUST NOT be/were not/ The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code were not added to the initial version of the registry. Dito. Then delete the following statement, there should be no registration rules in the initial registry: - These values MAY be requested for registration by individuals - using the process defined in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] and - according to the rules described therein. Items withdrawn, vacated, deprecated, modified, or otherwise judged by the LTRU working group to be questionable were omitted from the initial registry. Again s/MAY be/were/, then delete the next statement: - Those selected for inclusion MUST be added to the initial - registry. Yes, you added the selected codes, ready, The next statements are apparently wrong, please delete them if that's the case: - Any codes that remain were listed in a separate section of the initial - registry draft, indicating that these codes are valid for registration - using the process in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] but were not included - initially. Listing of these codes in this section is no guarantee - of future registration. I don't find any "separate" or "this section" in draft -07, let alone in your initial registry. [...] Such tags were placed in records of type "redundant" in the registry. Again s/MUST be/were/ - relevant rules belong to the registry draft and not to the draft registry, you only state the facts, no rules, defined by [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] have corresponding records of type "grandfathered" s/MUST// but may have a "Deprecated" and "Preferred-Value" field added to them if a subtag assignment or combination of assignments renders the tag obsolete. s/MAY/may/ If you're (almost) sure better say s/MAY// because the result wasn't determined by a random generator. deprecated were maintained as grandfathered entries. s/MUST be/were/ entry contains a "Deprecated" s/MUST contain/contains/ Etc., please get rid of each and every 2119 keyword, just the facts, no rules. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Jun 26 22:26:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmjKN-0001sz-RF; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:26:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmjKL-0001or-BR for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:26:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA06428 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmjjN-0007Uz-Lq for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:52:19 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:27:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:27:44 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB82ED@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up Thread-Index: AcV6rPDI9E5XPOlBRUa5vv0omezu/AAEc4YQ From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2005 02:27:44.0729 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD0A8C90:01C57ABF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I like the structure of this document more than I did previously. Having = the initialization text present is really an improvement. How about "the initial registry uses" (since this is the document = referring to itself)? And then do a thorough edit, probably using Frank's suggestions to get = started, but doing whatever editorial work makes sense from there. There also needs to be a section containing the various UN M.49 codes = that are valid for registration but which are not registered. E.g. the = ones referred to by: -- Any codes that remain MUST be listed in a separate section of the = initial registry draft, indicating that these codes are valid for = registration using the process in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] (Phillips, = A., Ed. and M. Davis, Ed., "Tags for Identifying Languages," June 2005.) = but were not included initially. Listing of these codes in this section = is no guarantee of future registration. -- (and with an actual link to the section) Then, if you would, please just submit the document and I'll submit = draft-07 of registry with the text included here expunged in an = appropriate manner. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: dimanche 26 juin 2005 17:04 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up >=20 > Doug Ewell wrote: >=20 > > nor does it add region subtags 034 and 143 nor delete region > > subtag 062, since that issue is still unresolved. >=20 > Hi Randy, could you please state that we want 034 and 143 IN > and 062 OUT. >=20 > > I'd especially like to know how WG members feel about Section > > 2: whether the wording makes sense in this context >=20 > You can't say "the editor MUST" while talking with yourself. > How about: "The editor of the initial registry used" etc. >=20 > You could also replace s/is/was/, s/are/were/ etc. describing > what you've done. >=20 > In the UN M.49 section get rid of all MAY, MUST, and MUST NOT, > these keywords are unnecessary and undefined in your memo. >=20 > Proposed text: >=20 > Actual UN numeric codes assigned to "macro-geographical > (continental)" regions were added to the IANA registry and > thereby made valid for use in language tags. >=20 > Note added "Actual", the added "regions", and s/MAY be/were/ >=20 > The UN numeric codes for "economic groupings" or "other > groupings," and the alphanumeric codes in Appendix X of the > UN document, were not added to the registry. >=20 > Here it's s/MUST NOT be/were not/ >=20 > The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated with > an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code were not added to the initial > version of the registry. >=20 > Dito. Then delete the following statement, there should be no > registration rules in the initial registry: >=20 > - These values MAY be requested for registration by individuals > - using the process defined in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] and > - according to the rules described therein. >=20 > Items withdrawn, vacated, deprecated, modified, or otherwise > judged by the LTRU working group to be questionable were omitted > from the initial registry. >=20 > Again s/MAY be/were/, then delete the next statement: >=20 > - Those selected for inclusion MUST be added to the initial > - registry. >=20 > Yes, you added the selected codes, ready, The next statements > are apparently wrong, please delete them if that's the case: >=20 > - Any codes that remain were listed in a separate section of the = initial > - registry draft, indicating that these codes are valid for = registration > - using the process in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] but were not included > - initially. Listing of these codes in this section is no guarantee > - of future registration. >=20 > I don't find any "separate" or "this section" in draft -07, let > alone in your initial registry. >=20 > [...] > Such tags were placed in records of type "redundant" in the = registry. >=20 > Again s/MUST be/were/ - relevant rules belong to the registry > draft and not to the draft registry, you only state the facts, > no rules, >=20 > defined by [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] have corresponding records > of type "grandfathered" >=20 > s/MUST// >=20 > but may have a "Deprecated" and "Preferred-Value" field added > to them if a subtag assignment or combination of assignments > renders the tag obsolete. >=20 > s/MAY/may/ If you're (almost) sure better say s/MAY// because > the result wasn't determined by a random generator. >=20 > deprecated were maintained as grandfathered entries. >=20 > s/MUST be/were/ >=20 > entry contains a "Deprecated" >=20 > s/MUST contain/contains/ >=20 > Etc., please get rid of each and every 2119 keyword, just the > facts, no rules. > Bye, Frank >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 01:02:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dmllq-00031H-PV; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:02:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dmllm-00030D-40 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:02:54 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17309 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050627050222.LJZE29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:02:22 -0400 Message-ID: <003801c57ad5$549809c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:01:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >> nor does it add region subtags 034 and 143 nor delete region >> subtag 062, since that issue is still unresolved. > > Hi Randy, could you please state that we want 034 and 143 IN > and 062 OUT. There is no consensus on this yet. So far Frank, Mark and I agree on this, and Randy has a different view. >> I'd especially like to know how WG members feel about Section >> 2: whether the wording makes sense in this context > > You can't say "the editor MUST" while talking with yourself. > How about: "The editor of the initial registry used" etc. > > You could also replace s/is/was/, s/are/were/ etc. describing > what you've done. > > In the UN M.49 section get rid of all MAY, MUST, and MUST NOT, > these keywords are unnecessary and undefined in your memo. Frank is right. There is much work yet to be done in this section. I'll go through Frank's and Addison's corrections, and let everyone know when a better -01 is ready. In particular, I realize I was supposed to add a section of UN codes that were omitted from the initial registry, and forgot to do so. And yes, it is true, I did edit some of the text slightly from draft-registry-07, mostly for grammar and punctuation. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 10:16:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmuNi-0003Gj-JG; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:14:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmuNg-0003Em-Fa for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:14:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24815 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suomi.kotus.fi ([193.166.18.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dmumq-00056m-N4 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:40:37 -0400 Received: from kotus.fi (pc163.kotus.fi [193.166.18.163]) by suomi.kotus.fi (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5REEPZm022053; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:14:25 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42C009C2.4090503@kotus.fi> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:14:26 +0300 From: Erkki Kolehmainen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: fi, en-us, sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BE17E2E@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050623224245.046f8e80@mail.afrac.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dear Mr. Morfin, You are so right with your statement "I am not sure anyone knows what a script can exactly be." - E.g., there are people who insist that Phoenician is not a script, but rather a glyph variation of Hebrew, and consequently they would like to prohibit the encoding of Phoenician characters in ISO/IEC 10646 and Unicode. In spite (and because) of quarrels like this, defining the script used for the encoding is often useful. Also, a text may be English, but if it is written and encoded in Shavian instead of the Latin script, it would be totally useless for me - among many others - to even open the file. One could argue that if the text would be rendered e.g. as generated voice, the identification of the chosen script together with the language is redundant - in principle, but not quite in practice. I suspect that no voice generator would work on encodings in both Shavian and Latin scripts or, to be more practical, e.g. in Cyrillic and Latin scripts, both of which are used for a number of languages even in the same countries (often together with other orthographic differences, though). The countries and regions of this world are not defined with absolute precision or optimal granularity, either. Yet, since there is considerable local variation in nearly all languages, it is often useful to define the applicable region using the most suitable code. The fact that there can be no absolute precision in the definitions of either the languages, scripts or regions, should not prevent us from coming up with a practical solution to the problems at hand. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen r&d afrac wrote: > At 21:37 23/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: > >> Finally, I added a short description for each subtag type in the >> section on syntax, as pointed out in a recent thread. These probably >> bear a look as innovations. > > > Certainly a good thing. But I am afraid this does not address the lack > of definition of what all this is about and what is a langtag. Let me > try to clarifiy in using ISO 3166. ISO 3166 is seven different ways to > code the name of the countries. You use the ISO 3166 for something else > (you name it a region and you mix M.49). The same as Jon Postel used it > to designated ccTLDs. You must define somewhere what you are defining > with that code. > > For example, nothing could prevent us in this WG to call one another by > our organisation's name. I would call you Quest. etc. But if we do not > define it, no one will know if I refer to you or to your organisation or > to its boss, etc. > > If I am correct (but I did not look in detail), ISO 3166 codes define > the name of the countries. ISO 639-3 are just codes and autonyms or > english names are attached to them. ISO15924 is a list and I am not sure > anyone knows what a script can exactly be (not clear in the text and in > Michael's references to it: usually discussed as a reference to the > Unicode script.txt file). All this is not ISO 11179 conformant because a > metamodel must be homogenous and ... clear. ISO 639-4 tries to relate > them. This would be a good thing. But we do not know yet if it will, and > how. > > Why is important? Because this permits to describe what a langtag is > about. Charter says that the Draft must follow ISO. If you define > something which looks homogenous (you did not do it yet, but you > certainly could), but which is not in tune with ISO we will have > sometimes, somewhere a conflict. This may seem remote and unimportant to > you today. The same as it was remote and unimportant for Harald to > define scripts. Sometimes this will be a big conflict. All the more than > you do not protect yourself in the introduction in specifying a > restricted/defined scope. And want to be a BCP 47. > > One of the major discrepancy you face is about "script", because you are > specifying "langtag" for a multimedia system and use two general > attributes (languages and country) and a specialised one (script) making > yourself incompatible with all the non written modes. To correct that it > is enough to coin an open description of "script" as the descriptor of > the mode, using ISO 15924 when it is a written mode. > > All this is not complex, but must be done precisely. In an ISO > consistent way, because the charter says so. > jfc > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 11:09:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmvEP-0005Dd-Vh; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:09:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmvEO-0005Cx-6L for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:09:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00974 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmvdX-00071x-M1 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:35:04 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:53 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:52 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:51 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: LTRU registry draft-06 Thread-Index: AcV5L29KIZH4OCSSR4GETDl+qwlLSAB+hqrQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2005 15:08:52.0845 (UTC) FILETIME=[215C09D0:01C57B2A] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: r&d afrac [mailto:rd@afrac.org] > >This group has all along been assuming that it can treat the semantics > >of "Spanish" or "Latin America" as conventional. >=20 > OK. please define this semantic. No; IMO, that is out of scope for this WG and the documents it is working on. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 12:17:58 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmwHq-00058M-Pk; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:16:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmwHo-000582-Kw for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:16:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA08211 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dmwgz-0000xW-P8 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:42:42 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:18:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:18:02 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB84AD@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up Thread-Index: AcV7M0nIxEbQPK+XQliIJaM5tHL7BQAAByFA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" , "Doug Ewell" , "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2005 16:18:03.0433 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB4D8190:01C57B33] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1056819443==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1056819443== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1056819443==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 12:17:59 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmwDB-0002UF-NH; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:11:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmwD9-0002U6-KG for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:11:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07422 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DmwcH-0000ig-CS for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:37:51 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5RGBO5f020081; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:11:47 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:11:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, Note that Addison replied with some text that uses MUST. But I'm inclined to think that Frank's got it right - this is the rather rare standards-related I-D (and later RFC) that should not use any conformance imperatives from RFC 2119. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 1:02 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up > > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> nor does it add region subtags 034 and 143 nor delete region > >> subtag 062, since that issue is still unresolved. > > > > Hi Randy, could you please state that we want 034 and 143 IN > > and 062 OUT. > > There is no consensus on this yet. So far Frank, Mark and I agree on > this, and Randy has a different view. > > >> I'd especially like to know how WG members feel about Section > >> 2: whether the wording makes sense in this context > > > > You can't say "the editor MUST" while talking with yourself. > > How about: "The editor of the initial registry used" etc. > > > > You could also replace s/is/was/, s/are/were/ etc. describing > > what you've done. > > > > In the UN M.49 section get rid of all MAY, MUST, and MUST NOT, > > these keywords are unnecessary and undefined in your memo. > > Frank is right. There is much work yet to be done in this section. > I'll go through Frank's and Addison's corrections, and let > everyone know > when a better -01 is ready. > > In particular, I realize I was supposed to add a section of UN codes > that were omitted from the initial registry, and forgot to do so. > > And yes, it is true, I did edit some of the text slightly from > draft-registry-07, mostly for grammar and punctuation. > > -- > Doug Ewell > Fullerton, California > http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 12:28:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmwTe-0008UR-S4; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:28:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmwTc-0008UL-Nz for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:28:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09185 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dmwsl-0001Iu-PR for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:54:54 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DmwTX-00007m-1g for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:28:48 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050627182802.03d3dcf0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:28:32 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] additional changes... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dear Erkki, You are totally right in your comment. Both in supporting and in objecting in your final part. What I ask authors to do is to address the difficuoty in using the solution adopted everywhere (standards, common life, etc.). This is to define what they mean when they use the terms. This is just an initial recital. There are two main classes to start with: concept or data. This means that "Latn" can mean a general concept which has to be defined by examples, versions, dates, or an actual list of characters. You can use the first one to subjectively classify (no problem for oneself or within for a common culture). You can use the second for a charset. But you may meet a lot of problems due to subjective conflicts. Is French written in Latn: I asked on the Unicode list and I got no satisfactory response - there is one French used char. at least which is not defined in Unicode if I am correct (there are better experts than me in here). BTW we are ISO, so this is not Unicode but ISO 10646. There are the problems you rise about spoken/read texts. Only the written mode (simplest one) is supported while most of the languages are not written. Obviously this is the same for countries and regions. Authors tend to deal with ISO 3166 code as if they represented regions. They do not: they represent the name of countries. Let take a simple example: an English person who lives in the USA writes a text. Will she use "en-us" or "en-gb"? There are good reasons for both. It simply calls for a definition and a rule. A standard is not to impose the ideas of its authors through a small group consensus by exhaustion, but to produce a document everyone on earth will consensually - not approve, but - understand. And the same about languages. What is a language? What is Basic English? Shall I register Franglish? I am sorry but I still do not understand what the Draft is about. Most of the readers I know, agree it can fit documents using the same criteria. They only find legal contracts (because what is good for the defence is good per se) and commercial catalogues (because the proper of publicity is to make people feeling they understand). Nothing from people's real life. When I write your name in a French page, is it French or Finnish? I do not know. No one tells me .... But when asked to decribed the "conventional" semantic of the words he uses (in a different ways of their definition), he responds: IMHO it is not the role of this WG (to say what it is talking about). This leaves room only to common sense. This is very conventional to say that common sense misunderstandings have something is common: they are more than common. I am afraid Peter confuses ISO, where he is to make a list purposedly without practical application in mind, and IETF where he works on a relational protocol between the author of a page, documenting it with a langtag, and the reader of the same page, who should understand it the same way. jfc On 16:14 27/06/2005, Erkki Kolehmainen said: >Dear Mr. Morfin, > >You are so right with your statement "I am not sure anyone knows what a >script can exactly be." - E.g., there are people who insist that >Phoenician is not a script, but rather a glyph variation of Hebrew, and >consequently they would like to prohibit the encoding of Phoenician >characters in ISO/IEC 10646 and Unicode. In spite (and because) of >quarrels like this, defining the script used for the encoding is often >useful. Also, a text may be English, but if it is written and encoded in >Shavian instead of the Latin script, it would be totally useless for me - >among many others - to even open the file. One could argue that if the >text would be rendered e.g. as generated voice, the identification of the >chosen script together with the language is redundant - in principle, but >not quite in practice. I suspect that no voice generator would work on >encodings in both Shavian and Latin scripts or, to be more practical, e.g. >in Cyrillic and Latin scripts, both of which are used for a number of >languages even in the same countries (often together with other >orthographic differences, though). > >The countries and regions of this world are not defined with absolute >precision or optimal granularity, either. Yet, since there is considerable >local variation in nearly all languages, it is often useful to define the >applicable region using the most suitable code. > >The fact that there can be no absolute precision in the definitions of >either the languages, scripts or regions, should not prevent us from >coming up with a practical solution to the problems at hand. > >Sincerely, > >Erkki I. Kolehmainen > >r&d afrac wrote: > >>At 21:37 23/06/2005, Addison Phillips wrote: >> >>>Finally, I added a short description for each subtag type in the section >>>on syntax, as pointed out in a recent thread. These probably bear a look >>>as innovations. >> >>Certainly a good thing. But I am afraid this does not address the lack of >>definition of what all this is about and what is a langtag. Let me try to >>clarifiy in using ISO 3166. ISO 3166 is seven different ways to code the >>name of the countries. You use the ISO 3166 for something else (you name >>it a region and you mix M.49). The same as Jon Postel used it to >>designated ccTLDs. You must define somewhere what you are defining with >>that code. >>For example, nothing could prevent us in this WG to call one another by >>our organisation's name. I would call you Quest. etc. But if we do not >>define it, no one will know if I refer to you or to your organisation or >>to its boss, etc. >>If I am correct (but I did not look in detail), ISO 3166 codes define the >>name of the countries. ISO 639-3 are just codes and autonyms or english >>names are attached to them. ISO15924 is a list and I am not sure anyone >>knows what a script can exactly be (not clear in the text and in >>Michael's references to it: usually discussed as a reference to the >>Unicode script.txt file). All this is not ISO 11179 conformant because a >>metamodel must be homogenous and ... clear. ISO 639-4 tries to relate >>them. This would be a good thing. But we do not know yet if it will, and how. >>Why is important? Because this permits to describe what a langtag is >>about. Charter says that the Draft must follow ISO. If you define >>something which looks homogenous (you did not do it yet, but you >>certainly could), but which is not in tune with ISO we will have >>sometimes, somewhere a conflict. This may seem remote and unimportant to >>you today. The same as it was remote and unimportant for Harald to define >>scripts. Sometimes this will be a big conflict. All the more than you do >>not protect yourself in the introduction in specifying a >>restricted/defined scope. And want to be a BCP 47. >>One of the major discrepancy you face is about "script", because you are >>specifying "langtag" for a multimedia system and use two general >>attributes (languages and country) and a specialised one (script) making >>yourself incompatible with all the non written modes. To correct that it >>is enough to coin an open description of "script" as the descriptor of >>the mode, using ISO 15924 when it is a written mode. >>All this is not complex, but must be done precisely. In an ISO consistent >>way, because the charter says so. >>jfc >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ltru mailing list >>Ltru@lists.ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 13:17:15 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmxER-0004tf-CQ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:17:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DmxEQ-0004ta-AQ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:17:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15034 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dmxda-0003H7-Q7 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:43:16 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:18:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:18:29 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8530@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: Updated draft-07 Thread-Index: AcV7PADEsXTybErwTi+QDqfBBjHREw== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2005 17:18:30.0408 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D25F880:01C57B3C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Updated draft-07 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1672967624==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1672967624== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxsLA0KDQpJIGhhdmUgdXBkYXRlZCBkcmFmdC0wNyB0byByZW1vdmUgbW9zdCBvZiB0aGUgdGV4 dCBmcm9tIFNlY3Rpb24gMy43IChJbml0aWFsaXphdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkpLiBUaGUg cmVtYWluaW5nIHRleHQgaW4gdGhhdCBzZWN0aW9uIGNvbnNpc3RzIG9mIGEgcG9pbnRlciB0byB0 aGUgaW5pdGlhbCByZWdpc3RyeSBkcmFmdCBhbmQgdGhlIHRleHQgZGVzY3JpYmluZyB3aGF0IGhh cHBlbnMgdG8gUkZDIDMwNjYgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9ucyB0aGF0IGFyZSAiaW4tZmxpZ2h0IiAoc2lu Y2UgdGhhdCBpcyBub3JtYXRpdmUgc3R1ZmYgdGhhdCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgcHJvYmFibHkga2VlcCBp biB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50KS4NCg0KSW4gYWRkaXRpb24sIEkgbW9kaWZpZWQgdGhlIHRleHQgaW4g U2VjdGlvbiAzLjIgKE1haW50ZW5hbmNlIG9mIHRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSkgdG8gZG92ZXRhaWwgd2l0 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NAA15325; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dmxgu-0003MM-CN; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:46:45 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:22:04 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C57B3C.BBCDF40D" Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:22:02 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8539@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV7PH35MHFIN2gcSPyBxcf8jxOaDQ== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2005 17:22:04.0591 (UTC) FILETIME=[BCCFB3F0:01C57B3C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f599fa9a0fa183100ff0f9eedbaa73e8 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from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn1GL-0002aY-5R for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:35:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23462 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.65]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dn1fX-0006JG-Sx for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:01:33 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-71.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.71] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dn1GH-00047F-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:35:26 -0400 Message-ID: <00e601c57b60$ab0908a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <003801c57ad5$549809c0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:39:15 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 10:01 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> nor does it add region subtags 034 and 143 nor delete region > >> subtag 062, since that issue is still unresolved. > > > > Hi Randy, could you please state that we want 034 and 143 IN > > and 062 OUT. > > There is no consensus on this yet. So far Frank, Mark and I agree on > this, and Randy has a different view. ... I guess you missed message http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02405.html There is no disagreement, but you've kept on arguing. :-) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 17:38:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn1JS-0003Hr-88; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:38:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn1JR-0003HN-Md for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:38:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA23725 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.65]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dn1if-0006NQ-Si for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:04:46 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-137-71.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.137.71] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dn1JQ-00053l-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:38:40 -0400 Message-ID: <00f101c57b61$200a0960$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20050624202350.YPIR4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org><004901c579a9$7fe25360$030aa8c0@DEWELL><092701c579b2$45c1b730$e37c3009@sanjose.ibm.com> <42BEB664.27F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: [Ltru] [psg.com #1034] Add region subtags 034 and 143, delete 062 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:42:32 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I've marked issue #1034 as "resolved", since there's been no disagreement (despite continued postings) since last week. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Mon Jun 27 20:53:03 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn4LX-0004KM-Dv; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:53:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn4LR-0004K5-RV for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:53:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18673 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:52:55 -0400 (EDT) From: info@dot-root.com Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dn4kg-0006Kx-KZ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:19:03 -0400 Received: from dot-root by montage.altserver.com with local (Exim 4.44) id 1Dn4LF-0007ZQ-R6; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:52:45 -0700 Received: from 82.241.91.24 ([82.241.91.24]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user info@dot-root.com) by dot-root.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2177.82.241.91.24.1119919965.squirrel@dot-root.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:52:45 -0700 (PDT) To: petercon@microsoft.org.cnri.reston.va.us User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32747 1248] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org, dg@dot-root.com Subject: [Ltru] Response to Mr. Constable X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dear Mr. Constable, I read your mail with care. I am sure you are full of good intents. I was very upset because I read "droll". Then I looked exactly what is a "troll". I understand it can be someone destructive and I think you are one without understanding it, by over simplification (what leads to a great complexity to further add what you remove). It can also be someone forcing others to answer. And then I certainly am the one. So we are both trolls. I must explain you that if M. JFC Morfin is active on your list it is at our request. We work by topic. He is specialised in what we name "CRC" (granular IANA distributed extensions) which are of utmost importance for the architecture of the Multilingual Internet. He is a Member of the BoD of the MINC, a co-founder of Eurolinc with Louis Pouzin, the Executive Secretary of the NICSO, etc.. He also deals with other officials and groups at EU and ITU and government who share in its long experience in networking. He was kind enough to spare us all the debate over your langtag: it covers things you probably have a real need for, but which do not interest us (we are interested in network and peoples practical tools experimrntation - lists of no defined items have no real interest as long as they are not meant for something real). He wanted to try to find an agreement but you seems too interested in your own need.. What is not bad, but this does not help others who also use RFC 3066 and are happy with it. We considered the "x-" proposition which was made on your list, and all the parts of the Draft which say that x-tags are not standardised (this is repeated). The only problem we have is the hexatridecimal 8alphanum. It can be changed without problem since everything in x-tags is by private convention? M. JFC Morfin having asked us to follow the "WG-ltru" list for him, I thought I could introduce our need. M. JFC Morfin had warned me that the response would be the one I received from the group, from Addison and from you, for the exact reasons you gave. I thought it was not possible, and I tried in good faith. I am not used to the IETF rude lists. The response seemed so out of context, that I insisted. Now, I know that there is no chance of innovation with the IETF and I will unsubscribe us. M. JFC Morfin made every effort to preserve the possibility of a future co-operation. He has shown us that at the end of the day the users' solutions will prevail. Now we see that Dr. Larry Robert himself his treated the same. So we are very proud! I am satisfied with the proposition reported by M. JFC Morfin: this is real. We have started discussing its experimentation with some other groups. I suppose that AFRAC will publish a note on this before the September meeting. I wish you the best success for ISO 639-3. We will use it extensively with the other ISO 639-X. Thank you for your effort. As dot-root we want to focus on experimenting of real interest to the network users. Application we do not understand for linguist experts may be of real interest, but with our limited number of engineers, students and machines, they are too specialised for us. F. Charles. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 02:21:16 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn9TA-0000W8-3f; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:21:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dn9T7-0000Ul-8j for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:21:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01274 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dn9sO-000702-3R for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:47:21 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:21:02 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:21:01 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Response to Mr. Constable Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:21:08 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Response to Mr. Constable Thread-Index: AcV7e9zz71XjacMYTVmfzACGGvZROgAK2lDQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 06:21:01.0719 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E4F7A70:01C57BA9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org, dg@dot-root.com X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of info@dot-root.com > He was kind enough to spare us all the debate over your > langtag: it covers things you probably have a real need for, but which do > not interest us... He wanted to try to find an > agreement but you seems too interested in your own need.. What is not bad, > but this does not help others who also use RFC 3066 and are happy with it. Your statement makes no sense: you say that we are not helping those who use RFC 3066 and are happy with it, implying that we are doing them a disservice. If they are happy with it, then they want to continue doing what they are doing without problems, and we are working to ensure just that: *every* existing usage valid under RFC 3066 will be valid under 3066bis. > We considered the "x-" proposition which was made on your list, and all > the parts of the Draft which say that x-tags are not standardised (this is > repeated). The only problem we have is the hexatridecimal 8alphanum. It > can be changed without problem since everything in x-tags is by private > convention? Everything in tags beginning with x- is by private convention, with the sole limitation that the tag must take the form=20 ("x"/"X") 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) (following the notation described in RFC2234). =20 > M. JFC Morfin having asked us to follow the "WG-ltru" list for him, I > thought I could introduce our need. M. JFC Morfin had warned me that the > response would be the one I received from the group, from Addison and from > you, for the exact reasons you gave. I thought it was not possible, and I > tried in good faith. I am not used to the IETF rude lists. The response > seemed so out of context, that I insisted. Now, I know that there is no > chance of innovation with the IETF and I will unsubscribe us. There is plenty of innovation happening. But the specific change you requested, allowing use of "." in private-use tags, is not an innovation that can be considered since it would explicitly break the provision mentioned above: ensuring that existing users happy with RFC 3066 can continue to work without problems. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 15:40:28 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnLwa-0005sg-JP; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:40:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnLwX-0005rg-Gc for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:40:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11643 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:40:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Received: from mail-res.bigfish.com ([63.161.60.61] helo=mail36-res-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnM1Z-0000AR-JM for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:45:42 -0400 Received: from mail36-res.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail36-res-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAE25D4837; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:19:07 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail36-res.bigfish.com (MessageSwitch) id 1119986347384796_17563; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:19:07 +0000 (UCT) Received: from usmta02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.248.62]) by mail36-res.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8365D4816; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:19:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by usmta02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.12) with SMTP id 2005062812262804:69470 ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:26:28 -0700 To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:16:09 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/28/2005 12:16:10, Itemize by SMTP Server on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/28/2005 12:26:28 PM, Serialize by Router on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/28/2005 12:26:30 PM, Serialize complete at 06/28/2005 12:26:30 PM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 006A1CFF8825702E_=" X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d8b4306865a35ded67dca83d5f3c20d2 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --=_mixed 006A1CFF8825702E_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical question: Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the regional variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional variant before the script variant because for me, the script variant only applies if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in both the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the direction of an archive on the topic, that would help. Thank you, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 "Addison Phillips" Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 06/27/2005 10:22 AM To: cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Dear Editor, Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. Best Regards, Addison (for the editors) Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software http://www.quest.com Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group http://www.w3.org/International Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_mixed 006A1CFF8825702E_= Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Network Working Group A. Phillips, Ed. Internet-Draft Quest Software Expires: December 26, 2005 M. Davis, Ed. IBM June 24, 2005 Tags for Identifying Languages draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Status of this Memo By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on December 26, 2005. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). Abstract This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 1] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. The Language Tag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.1 Syntax . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2.2 Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation . . . . . . . . 6 2.2.1 Primary Language Subtag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2.2.2 Extended Language Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2.2.3 Script Subtag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 2.2.4 Region Subtag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 2.2.5 Variant Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 2.2.6 Extension Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 2.2.8 Pre-Existing RFC 3066 Registrations . . . . . . . . . 15 2.2.9 Classes of Conformance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 3. Registry Format and Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 3.1 Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry . . . . . . . 18 3.2 Maintenance of the Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 3.3 Stability of IANA Registry Entries . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 3.4 Registration Procedure for Subtags . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 3.5 Possibilities for Registration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 3.6 Extensions and Extensions Namespace . . . . . . . . . . . 33 3.7 Initialization of the Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 4. Formation and Processing of Language Tags . . . . . . . . . . 37 4.1 Choice of Language Tag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 4.2 Meaning of the Language Tag . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39 4.3 Length Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 4.3.1 Working with Limited Buffer Sizes . . . . . . . . . . 40 4.3.2 Truncation of Language Tags . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42 4.4 Canonicalization of Language Tags . . . . . . . . . . . . 42 4.5 Considerations for Private Use Subtags . . . . . . . . . . 44 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46 5.1 Language Subtag Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 46 5.2 Extensions Registry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48 7. Character Set Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49 8. Changes from RFC 3066 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 9. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 9.1 Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 9.2 Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55 A. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56 B. Examples of Language Tags (Informative) . . . . . . . . . . . 57 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . 60 Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 2] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. Introduction Human beings on our planet have, past and present, used a number of languages. There are many reasons why one would want to identify the language used when presenting or requesting information. User's language preferences often need to be identified so that appropriate processing can be applied. For example, the user's language preferences in a Web browser can be used to select Web pages appropriately. Language preferences can also be used to select among tools (such as dictionaries) to assist in the processing or understanding of content in different languages. In addition, knowledge about the particular language used by some piece of information content might be useful or even required by some types of processing; for example spell-checking, computer-synthesized speech, Braille transcription, or high-quality print renderings. One means of indicating the language used is by labeling the information content with an identifier or "tag". These tags can be used to specify user preferences when selecting information content, or for labeling additional attributes of content and associated resources. Tags can also be used to indicate additional language attributes of content. For example, indicating specific information about the dialect, writing system, or orthography used in a document or resource may enable the user to obtain information in a form that they can understand, or important in processing or rendering the given content into an appropriate form or style. This document specifies a particular identifier mechanism (the language tag) and a registration function for values to be used to form tags. It also defines a mechanism for private use values and future extension. This document replaces RFC 3066, which replaced RFC 1766. For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. The keywords "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 3] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 2. The Language Tag The language tag always defines a language as used (which includes being spoken, written, signed, or otherwise signaled) by human beings for communication of information to other human beings. Computer languages such as programming languages are explicitly excluded. 2.1 Syntax The language tag is composed of one or more parts or "subtags". Each subtag consists of a sequence of alpha-numeric characters. Subtags are distinguished and separated from one another by a hyphen ("-"). A language tag consists of a "primary language" subtag and a (possibly empty) series of subsequent subtags, each of which refines or narrows the range of language identified by the overall tag. Each type of subtag is distinguished by length, position in the tag, and content: subtags can be recognized solely by these features. This makes it possible to construct a parser that can extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if the specific subtag values are not recognized. Thus a parser need not have an up- to-date copy (or any copy at all) of the subtag registry to perform most searching and matching operations. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 4] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC2234bis] is: Language-Tag =3D (lang *3("-" extlang) ["-" script] ["-" region] *("-" variant) *("-" extension) ["-" privateuse]) / privateuse ; private-use tag / grandfathered ; grandfathered registrations lang =3D 2*4ALPHA ; shortest ISO 639 code / registered-lang extlang =3D 3ALPHA ; reserved for future use script =3D 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code region =3D 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166 code / 3DIGIT ; UN country number variant =3D 5*8alphanum ; registered variants / ( DIGIT 3alphanum ) extension =3D singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum)) privateuse =3D ("x"/"X") 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) singleton =3D %x41-57 / %x59-5A / %x61-77 / %x79-7A / DIGIT ; "a"-"w" / "y"-"z" / "A"-"W" / "Y"-"Z" / "0"-"9" ; Single letters: x/X is reserved for private use registered-lang =3D 4*8ALPHA ; registered language subtag grandfathered =3D 1*3ALPHA 1*2("-" (2*8alphanum)) ; grandfathered registration ; Note: i is the only singleton ; that starts a grandfathered tag alphanum =3D (ALPHA / DIGIT) ; letters and numbers Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF The character "-" is HYPHEN-MINUS (ABNF: %x2D). All subtags have a maximum length of eight characters. Note that there is a subtlety in the ABNF for 'variant': variants starting with a digit MAY be four characters long, while those starting with a letter MUST be at least five characters long. Whitespace is not permitted in a language tag. For examples of language tags, see Appendix B. Note that although [RFC2234bis] refers to octets, the language tags described in this document are sequences of characters from the US- ASCII repertoire. Language tags MAY be used in documents and applications that use other encodings, so long as these encompass the US-ASCII repertoire. An example of this would be an XML document Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 5] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 that uses the UTF-16LE [RFC2781] encoding of [Unicode]. The tags and their subtags, including private-use and extensions, are to be treated as case insensitive: there exist conventions for the capitalization of some of the subtags, but these MUST not be taken to carry meaning. For example: o [ISO639-1] recommends that language codes be written in lower case ('mn' Mongolian). o [ISO3166] recommends that country codes be capitalized ('MN' Mongolia). o [ISO15924] recommends that script codes use lower case with the initial letter capitalized ('Cyrl' Cyrillic). However, in the tags defined by this document, the uppercase US-ASCII letters in the range 'A' through 'Z' are considered equivalent and mapped directly to their US-ASCII lowercase equivalents in the range 'a' through 'z'. Thus the tag "mn-Cyrl-MN" is not distinct from "MN- cYRL-mn" or "mN-cYrL-Mn" (or any other combination) and each of these variations conveys the same meaning: Mongolian written in the Cyrillic script as used in Mongolia. 2.2 Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation The namespace of language tags and their subtags is administered by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) [RFC2860] according to the rules in Section 5 of this document. The registry maintained by IANA is the source for valid subtags: other standards referenced in this section provide the source material for that registry. Terminology in this section: o Tag or tags refers to a complete language tag, such as "fr-Latn-CA". Examples of tags in this document are enclosed in double-quotes ("en-US"). o Subtag refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by hyphen, such as the subtag 'Latn' in "fr-Latn-CA". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in single quotes ('Latn'). o Code or codes refers to values defined in external standards (and which are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Latn' is an [ISO15924] script code which was used to define the 'Latn' script subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 6] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 this document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Latn'). The definitions in this section apply to the various subtags within the language tags defined by this document, excepting those "grandfathered" tags defined in Section 2.2.8. Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length and content restrictions. These make identification of the subtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when parsing tags simpler. Subtags in the IANA registry that do not come from an underlying standard can only appear in specific positions in a tag. Specifically, they can only occur as primary language subtags or as variant subtags. Note that sequences of private-use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. Single letter and digit subtags are reserved for current or future use. These include the following current uses: o The single letter subtag 'x' is reserved to introduce a sequence of private-use subtags. The interpretation of any private-use subtags is defined solely by private agreement and is not defined by the rules in this section or in any standard or registry defined in this document. o All other single letter subtags are reserved to introduce standardized extension subtag sequences as described in Section 3.6. The single letter subtag 'i' is used by some grandfathered tags, such as "i-enochian", where it always appears in the first position and cannot be confused with an extension. 2.2.1 Primary Language Subtag The primary language subtag is the first subtag in a language tag (with the exception of private-use and certain grandfathered tags) and cannot be omitted. The following rules apply to the primary language subtag: Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 7] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. All two character language subtags were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in the standard ISO 639 Part 1, "ISO 639-1:2002, Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 1: Alpha-2 code" [ISO639-1], or using assignments subsequently made by the ISO 639 Part 1 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. 2. All three character language subtags were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in ISO 639 Part 2, "ISO 639-2:1998 - Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code - edition 1" [ISO639-2], or assignments subsequently made by the ISO 639 Part 2 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. 3. The subtags in the range 'qaa' through 'qtz' are reserved for private use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved by ISO 639-2 for private use. These codes MAY be used for non-registered primary-language subtags (instead of using private-use subtags following 'x-'). Please refer to Section 4.5 for more information on private use subtags. 4. All four character language subtags are reserved for possible future standardization. 5. All language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.4 and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type will be discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639 and proposals rejected by ISO 639/RA will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. 6. The single character subtag 'x' as the primary subtag indicates that the language tag consists solely of subtags whose meaning is defined by private agreement. For example, in the tag "x-fr-CH", the subtags 'fr' and 'CH' SHOULD NOT be taken to represent the French language or the country of Switzerland (or any other value in the IANA registry) unless there is a private agreement in place to do so. See Section 4.5. 7. The single character subtag 'i' is used by some grandfathered tags (see Section 2.2.8) such as "i-klingon" and "i-bnn". (Other grandfathered tags have a primary language subtag in their first position) 8. Other values MUST NOT be assigned to the primary subtag except by revision or update of this document. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 8] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Note: For languages that have both an ISO 639-1 two character code and an ISO 639-2 three character code, only the ISO 639-1 two character code is defined in the IANA registry. Note: For languages that have no ISO 639-1 two character code and for which the ISO 639-2/T (Terminology) code and the ISO 639-2/B (Bibliographic) codes differ, only the Terminology code is defined in the IANA registry. At the time this document was created, all languages that had both kinds of three character code were also assigned a two character code; it is not expected that future assignments of this nature will occur. Note: To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066, as well as the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/ RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.principles]: "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO 639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1. This is to ensure consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2 code for that language is not available." In order to avoid instability of the canonical form of tags, if a two character code is added to ISO 639-1 for a language for which a three character code was already included in ISO 639-2, the two character code will not be added as a subtag in the registry. See Section 3.3. For example, if some content were tagged with 'haw' (Hawaiian), which currently has no two character code, the tag would not be invalidated if ISO 639-1 were to assign a two character code to the Hawaiian language at a later date. For example, one of the grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian-Latn" valid. 2.2.2 Extended Language Subtags The following rules apply to the extended language subtags: 1. Three letter subtags immediately following the primary subtag are reserved for future standardization, anticipating work that is currently under way on ISO 639. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 9] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 2. Extended language subtags MUST follow the primary subtag and precede any other subtags. 3. There MAY be up to three extended language subtags. 4. Extended language subtags MUST NOT be registered or used to form language tags. Their syntax is described here so that implementations can be compatible with any future revision of this document which does provide for their registration. Extended language subtag records, once they appear in the registry, MUST include exactly one 'Prefix' field indicating an appropriate language subtag or sequence of subtags that MUST always appear as a prefix to the extended language subtag. Example: In a future revision or update of this document, the tag "zh-gan" (registered under RFC 3066) might become a valid non- grandfathered (that is, redundant) tag in which the subtag 'gan' might represent the Chinese dialect 'Gan'. 2.2.3 Script Subtag Script subtags are used to indicate the script or writing system variations that distinguish the written forms of a language or its dialects. The following rules apply to the script subtags: 1. All four character subtags were defined according to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjunction with this language. 2. Script subtags MUST immediately follow the primary language subtag and all extended language subtags and MUST occur before any other type of subtag described below. 3. The script subtags 'Qaaa' through 'Qabx' are reserved for private use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved by ISO 15924 for private use. These codes MAY be used for non- registered script values. Please refer to Section 4.5 for more information on private-use subtags. 4. Script subtags cannot be registered using the process in Section 3.4 of this document. Variant subtags MAY be considered for registration for that purpose. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 10] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 5. There MUST be at most one script subtag in a language tag and the script subtag SHOULD be omitted when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag or when the primary language subtag's record includes a Supress-Script field listing the applicable script subtag. Example: "sr-Latn" represents Serbian written using the Latin script. 2.2.4 Region Subtag Region subtags are used to indicate linguistic variations associated with or appropriate to a specific country, territory, or region. Typically, a region subtag is used to indicate regional dialects or usage, or region-specific spelling conventions. A region subtag can also be used to indicate that content is expressed in a way that is appropriate for use throughout a region; for instance, Spanish content tailored to be useful throughout Latin America. The following rules apply to the region subtags: 1. Region subtags MUST follow any language, extended language, or script subtags and MUST precede all other subtags. 2. All two character subtags following the primary subtag were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in [ISO3166]--"Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions - Part 1: Country codes"--alpha-2 country codes or assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. 3. All three character subtags consisting of digit (numeric) characters following the primary subtag were defined in the IANA registry according to the assignments found in UN Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use [UN_M.49] or assignments subsequently made by the governing standards body. Note that not all of the UN M.49 codes are defined in the IANA registry. The following rules define which codes are entered into the registry as valid subtags: A. UN numeric codes assigned to 'macro-geographical (continental)' or sub-regions MUST be registered in the registry. These codes are not associated with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code and represent supra-national areas, usually covering more than one nation, state, province, or territory. B. UN numeric codes for 'economic groupings' or 'other groupings' MUST NOT be registered in the IANA registry and Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 11] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 MUST NOT be used to form language tags. C. UN numeric codes for countries or areas with ambiguous ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes, when entered into the registry, MUST be defined according to the rules in Section 3.3 and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which they are defined. D. UN numeric codes for countries or areas for which there is an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code in the registry MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. Note that the ISO 3166-based subtag in the registry MUST actually be associated with the UN M.49 code in question. E. All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do not have an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. For more information about these codes, see Section 3.3. 4. Note: The alphanumeric codes in Appendix X of the UN document MUST NOT be entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form language tags. (At the time this document was created these values match the ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes.) 5. There MUST be at most one region subtag in a language tag and the region subtag MAY be omitted, as when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag. 6. The region subtags 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-'XZ', and 'ZZ' are reserved for private use in language tags. These subtags correspond to codes reserved by ISO 3166 for private use. These codes MAY be used for private use region subtags (instead of using a private-use subtag sequence). Please refer to Section 4.5 for more information on private use subtags. "de-CH" represents German ('de') as used in Switzerland ('CH'). "sr-Latn-CS" represents Serbian ('sr') written using Latin script ('Latn') as used in Serbia and Montenegro ('CS'). "es-419" represents Spanish ('es') appropriate to the UN-defined Latin America and Caribbean region ('419'). 2.2.5 Variant Subtags Variant subtags are used to indicate additional, well-recognized Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 12] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 variations that define a language or its dialects which are not covered by other available subtags. The following rules apply to the variant subtags: 1. Variant subtags are not associated with any external standard. Variant subtags and their meanings are defined by the registration process defined in Section 3.4. 2. Variant subtags MUST follow all of the other defined subtags, but precede any extension or private-use subtag sequences. 3. More than one variant MAY be used to form the language tag. 4. Variant subtags MUST be registered with IANA according to the rules in Section 3.4 of this document before being used to form language tags. In order to distinguish variants from other types of subtags, registrations MUST meet the following length and content restrictions: 1. Variant subtags that begin with a letter (a-z, A-Z) MUST be at least five characters long. 2. Variant subtags that begin with a digit (0-9) MUST be at least four characters long. Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' fields, which indicates the language tag or tags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. For example, the subtag 'nedis' has a Prefix of "sl", making it suitable to form language tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis", but not suitable for use in a tag such as "zh-nedis" or "it-IT-nedis". "sl-nedis" represents the Natisone or Nadiza dialect of Slovenian. "de-CH-1996" represents German as used in Switzerland and as written using the spelling reform beginning in the year 1996 C.E. Most variants that share a prefix are mutually exclusive. For example, the German orthographic variations '1996' and '1901' SHOULD NOT be used in the same tag, as they represent the dates of different spelling reforms. A variant that can meaningfully be used in combination with another variant SHOULD include a 'Prefix' field in its registry record that lists that other variant. For example, if another German variant 'example' were created that made sense to use with '1996', then 'example' should include two Prefix fields: "de" and "de-1996". Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 13] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 2.2.6 Extension Subtags Extensions provide a mechanism for extending language tags for use in various applications. See: Section 3.6. The following rules apply to extensions: 1. Extension subtags are separated from the other subtags defined in this document by a single-letter subtag ("singleton"). The singleton MUST be one allocated to a registration authority via the mechanism described in Section 3.6 and cannot be the letter 'x', which is reserved for private-use subtag sequences. 2. Note: Private-use subtag sequences starting with the singleton subtag 'x' are described below. 3. An extension MUST follow at least a primary language subtag. That is, a language tag cannot begin with an extension. Extensions extend language tags, they do not override or replace them. For example, "a-value" is not a well-formed language tag, while "de-a-value" is. 4. Each singleton subtag MUST appear at most one time in each tag (other than as a private-use subtag). That is, singleton subtags MUST NOT be repeated. For example, the tag "en-a-bbb-a- ccc" is invalid because the subtag 'a' appears twice. Note that the tag "en-a-bbb-x-a-ccc" is valid because the second appearance of the singleton 'a' is in a private use sequence. 5. Extension subtags MUST meet all of the requirements for the content and format of subtags defined in this document. 6. Extension subtags MUST meet whatever requirements are set by the document that defines their singleton prefix and whatever requirements are provided by the maintaining authority. 7. Each extension subtag MUST be from two to eight characters long and consist solely of letters or digits, with each subtag separated by a single '-'. 8. Each singleton MUST be followed by at least one extension subtag. For example, the tag "tlh-a-b-foo" is invalid because the first singleton 'a' is followed immediately by another singleton 'b'. 9. Extension subtags MUST follow all language, extended language, script, region and variant subtags in a tag. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 14] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 10. All subtags following the singleton and before another singleton are part of the extension. Example: In the tag "fr-a-Latn", the subtag 'Latn' does not represent the script subtag 'Latn' defined in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. Its meaning is defined by the extension 'a'. 11. In the event that more than one extension appears in a single tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Section 4.4. For example, if the prefix singleton 'r' and the shown subtags were defined, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn- GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" 2.2.7 Private Use Subtags Private use subtags are used to indicate distinctions in language important in a given context by private agreement. The following rules apply to private-use subtags: 1. Private-use subtags are separated from the other subtags defined in this document by the reserved single-character subtag 'x'. 2. Private-use subtags MUST follow all language, extended language, script, region, variant, and extension subtags in the tag. Another way of saying this is that all subtags following the singleton 'x' MUST be considered private use. Example: The subtag 'US' in the tag "en-x-US" is a private use subtag. 3. A tag MAY consist entirely of private-use subtags. 4. No source is defined for private use subtags. Use of private use subtags is by private agreement only. For example: Users who wished to utilize SIL Ethnologue for identification might agree to exchange tags such as "az-Arab-x-AZE- derbend". This example contains two private-use subtags. The first is 'AZE' and the second is 'derbend'. 2.2.8 Pre-Existing RFC 3066 Registrations Existing IANA-registered language tags from RFC 1766 and/or RFC 3066 maintain their validity. IANA will maintain these tags in the registry under either the "grandfathered" or "redundant" type. For more information see Section 3.7. It is important to note that all language tags formed under the guidelines in this document were either legal, well-formed tags or Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 15] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 could have been registered under RFC 3066. 2.2.9 Classes of Conformance Implementations sometimes need to describe their capabilities with regard to the rules and practices described in this document. There are two classes of conforming implementations described by this document: "well-formed" processors and "validating" processors. Claims of conformance SHOULD explicitly reference one of these definitions. An implementation that claims to check for well-formed language tags MUST: o Check that the tag and all of its subtags, including extension and private-use subtags, conform to the ABNF or that the tag is on the list of grandfathered tags. o Check that singleton subtags that identify extensions do not repeat. For example, the tag "en-a-xx-b-yy-a-zz" is not well- formed. Well-formed processors are strongly encouraged to implement the canonicalization rules contained in Section 4.4. An implementation that claims to be validating MUST: o Check that the tag is well-formed. o Specify the particular registry date for which the implementation performs validation of subtags. o Check that either the tag is a grandfathered tag, or that all language, script, region, and variant subtags consist of valid codes for use in language tags according to the IANA registry as of the particular date specified by the implementation. o Specify which, if any, extension RFCs as defined in Section 3.6 are supported, including version, revision, and date. o For any such extensions supported, check that all subtags used in that extension are valid. o For variant and extended language subtags, if the registry contains one or more 'Prefix' fields for that subtag, check that the tag matches at least one prefix. The tag matches if all the subtags in the 'Prefix' also appear in the tag. For example, the prefix "es-CO" matches the tag "es-Latn-CO-x-private" because both Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 16] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 the 'es' language subtag and 'CO' region subtag appear in the tag. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 17] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 3. Registry Format and Maintenance This section defines the Language Subtag Registry and the maintenance and update procedures associated with it. The language subtag registry will be maintained so that, except for extension subtags, it is possible to validate all of the subtags that appear in a language tag under the provisions of this document or its revisions or successors. In addition, the meaning of the various subtags will be unambiguous and stable over time. (The meaning of private-use subtags, of course, is not defined by the IANA registry.) The registry defined under this document contains a comprehensive list of all of the subtags valid in language tags. This allows implementers a straightforward and reliable way to validate language tags. 3.1 Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry The IANA Language Subtag Registry ("the registry") will consist of a text file that is machine readable in the format described in this section, plus copies of the registration forms approved by the Language Subtag Reviewer in accordance with the process described in Section 3.4. With the exception of the registration forms for grandfathered and redundant tags, no registration records will be maintained for the initial set of subtags. The registry will be in a modified record-jar format text file [record-jar]. Lines are limited to 72 characters, including all whitespace. Records are separated by lines containing only the sequence "%%" (%x25.25). Each field can be viewed as a single, logical line of ASCII characters, comprising a field-name and a field-body separated by a COLON character (%x3A). For convenience, the field-body portion of this conceptual entity can be split into a multiple-line representation; this is called "folding". The format of the registry is described by the following ABNF (per [RFC2234bis]): registry =3D record *("%%" CRLF record) record =3D 1*( field-name *SP ":" *SP field-body CRLF ) field-name =3D *(ALPHA / DIGIT / "-") field-body =3D *(ASCCHAR/LWSP) ASCCHAR =3D %x21-25 / %x27-7E / UNICHAR ; Note: AMPERSAND is %x26 UNICHAR =3D "&#x" 2*6HEXDIG ";" Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 18] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The sequence '..' (%x2E.2E) in a field-body denotes a range of values. Such a range represents all subtags of the same length that are alphabetically within that range, including the values explicitly mentioned. For example 'a..c' denotes the values 'a', 'b', and 'c'. Characters from outside the US-ASCII repertoire, as well as the AMPERSAND character ("&", %x26) when it occurs in a field-body are represented by a "Numeric Character Reference" using hexadecimal notation in the style used by [XML10] (see ). This consists of the sequence "&#x" (%x26.23.78) followed by a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in [ISO10646] followed by a closing semicolon (%x3B). For example, the EURO SIGN, U+20AC, would be represented by the sequence "€". Note that the hexadecimal notation MAY have between two and six digits. All fields whose field-body contains a date value use the "full-date" format specified in [RFC3339]. For example: "2004-06-28" represents June 28, 2004 in the Gregorian calendar. The first record in the file contains the single field whose field- name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record contains the last modification date of this copy of the registry, making it possible to compare different versions of the registry. The registry on the IANA website is the most current. Versions with an older date than that one are not up-to-date. File-Date: 2004-06-28 %% Subsequent records represent subtags in the registry. Each of the fields in each record MUST occur no more than once, unless otherwise noted below. Each record MUST contain the following fields: o 'Type' * Type's field-value MUST consist of one of the following strings: "language", "extlang", "script", "region", "variant", "grandfathered", and "redundant" and denotes the type of tag or subtag. o Either 'Subtag' or 'Tag' * Subtag's field-value contains the subtag being defined. This field MUST only appear in records of whose Type has one of these values: "language", "extlang", "script", "region", or "variant". Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 19] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 * Tag's field-value contains a complete language tag. This field MUST only appear in records whose Type has one of these values: "grandfathered" or "redundant". o Description * Description's field-value contains a non-normative description of the subtag or tag. o Added * Added's field-value contains the date the record was added to the registry. The 'Subtag' or 'Tag' field MUST use lowercase letters to form the subtag or tag, with two exceptions. Subtags whose 'Type' field is 'script' (in other words, subtags defined by ISO 15924) MUST use titlecase. Subtags whose 'Type' field is 'region' (in other words, subtags defined by ISO 3166) MUST use uppercase. These exceptions mirror the use of case in the underlying standards. The field 'Description' MAY appear more than one time. At least one of the 'Description' fields MUST contain a description of the tag being registered written or transcribed into the Latin script; the same or additional fields MAY also include a description in a non- Latin script. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and SHOULD NOT be taken to represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language. Most descriptions are taken directly from source standards such as ISO 639 or ISO 3166. Note: Descriptions in registry entries that correspond to ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166 or UN M.49 codes are intended only to indicate the meaning of that identifier as defined in the source standard at the time it was added to the registry. The description does not replace the content of the source standard itself. The descriptions are not intended to be the English localized names for the subtags. Localization or translation of language tag and subtag descriptions is out of scope of this document. Each record MAY also contain the following fields: o Preferred-Value * For fields of type 'language', 'extlang', 'script', 'region', and 'variant', 'Preferred-Value' contains a subtag of the same 'Type' which is preferred for forming the language tag. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 20] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 * For fields of type 'grandfathered' and 'redundant', a canonical mapping to a complete language tag. o Deprecated * Deprecated's field-value contains the date the record was deprecated. o Prefix * Prefix's field-value contains a language tag with which this subtag MAY be used to form a new language tag, perhaps with other subtags as well. This field MUST only appear in records whose 'Type' field-value is 'variant' or 'extlang'. For example, the 'Prefix' for the variant 'nedis' is 'sl', meaning that the tags "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" might be appropriate while the tag "is-nedis" is not. o Comments * Comments contains additional information about the subtag, as deemed appropriate for understanding the registry and implementing language tags using the subtag or tag. o Suppress-Script * Suppress-Script contains a script subtag that SHOULD NOT be used to form language tags with the associated primary language subtag. This field MUST only appear in records whose 'Type' field-value is 'language'. See Section 4.1. The field 'Deprecated' MAY be added to any record via the maintenance process described in Section 3.2 or via the registration process described in Section 3.4. Usually the addition of a 'Deprecated' field is due to the action of one of the standards bodies, such as ISO 3166, withdrawing a code. In some historical cases it might not have been possible to reconstruct the original deprecation date. For these cases, an approximate date appears in the registry. Although valid in language tags, subtags and tags with a 'Deprecated' field are deprecated and validating processors SHOULD NOT generate these subtags. Note that a record that contains a 'Deprecated' field and no corresponding 'Preferred-Value' field has no replacement mapping. Thie field 'Preferred-Value' contains a mapping between the record in which it appears and a tag or subtag which SHOULD be preferred when selected language tags. These values form three groups: Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 21] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 ISO 639 language codes which were later withdrawn in favor of other codes. These values are mostly a historical curiosity. ISO 3166 region codes which have been withdrawn in favor of a new code. This sometimes happens when a country changes its name or administration in such a way that warrants a new region code. Tags grandfathered from RFC 3066. In many cases these tags have become obsolete because the values they represent were later encoded by ISO 639. Records that contain a 'Preferred-Value' field MUST also have a 'Deprecated' field. This field contains a date of deprecation. Thus a language tag processor can use the registry to construct the valid, non-deprecated set of subtags for a given date. In addition, for any given tag, a processor can construct the set of valid language tags that correspond to that tag for all dates up to the date of the registry. The ability to do these mappings MAY be beneficial to applications that are matching, selecting, for filtering content based on its language tags. Note that 'Preferred-Value' mappings in records of type 'region' MAY NOT represent exactly the same meaning as the original value. There are many reasons for a country code to be changed and the effect this has on the formation of language tags will depend on the nature of the change in question. In particular, the 'Preferred-Value' field does not imply retagging content that uses the affected subtag. The field 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be modified once created in the registry. The field MAY be added to records of type "grandfathered" and "region" according to the rules in Section 3.2. Otherwise the field MUST NOT be added to any record already in the registry. The 'Preferred-Value' field in records of type "grandfathered" and "redundant" contains whole language tags that are strongly RECOMMENDED for use in place of the record's value. In many cases the mappings were created by deprecation of the tags during the period before this document was adopted. For example, the tag "no- nyn" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-1 defined language code 'nn'. Records of type 'variant' MAY have more than one field of type 'Prefix'. Additional fields of this type MAY be added to a 'variant' record via the registration process. Records of type 'extlang' MUST have _exactly_ one 'Prefix' field. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 22] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The field-value of the 'Prefix' field consists of a language tag whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag. For example, the variant subtag '1996' has a Prefix field of "de". This means that tags starting with the sequence "de-" are appropriate with this subtag, so "de-Latg-1996" and "de-CH-1996" are both acceptable, while the tag "fr-1996" is an inappropriate choice. The field of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any record. The field-value for this type of field MUST NOT be modified. The field 'Comments' MAY appear more than once per record. This field MAY be inserted or changed via the registration process and no guarantee of stability is provided. The content of this field is not restricted, except by the need to register the information, the suitability of the request, and by reasonable practical size limitations. Long screeds about a particular subtag are frowned upon. The field 'Suppress-Script' MUST only appear in records whose 'Type' field-value is 'language'. This field MAY appear at most one time in a record. This field indicates a script used to write the overwhelming majority of documents for the given language and which therefore adds no distinguishing information to a language tag. It helps ensure greater compatibility between the language tags generated according to the rules in this document and language tags and tag processors or consumers based on RFC 3066. For example, virtually all Icelandic documents are written in the Latin script, making the subtag 'Latn' redundant in the tag "is-Latn". 3.2 Maintenance of the Registry Maintenance of the registry requires that as codes are assigned or withdrawn by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49, the Language Subtag Reviewer will evaluate each change, determine whether it conflicts with existing registry entries, and submit the information to IANA for inclusion in the registry. If an change takes place and the Language Subtag Reviewer does not do this in a timely manner, then any interested party MAY use the procedure in Section 3.4 to register the appropriate update. Note: The redundant and grandfathered entries together are the complete list of tags registered under [RFC3066]. The redundant tags are those that can now be formed using the subtags defined in the registry together with the rules of Section 2.2. The grandfathered entries are those that can never be legal under those same provisions. The set of redundant and grandfathered tags is permanent and stable: Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 23] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 no new entries will be added and none of the entries will be removed. Records of type 'grandfathered' MAY have their type converted to 'redundant': see Section 3.7 for more information. RFC 3066 tags that were deprecated prior to the adoption of this document are part of the list of grandfathered tags and their component subtags were not included as registered variants (although they remain eligible for registration). For example, the tag "art- lojban" was deprecated in favor of the language subtag 'jbo'. The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST ensure that new subtags meet the requirements in Section 4.1 or submit an appropriate alternate subtag as described in that section. When either a change or addition to the registry is needed, the Language Subtag Reviewer MUST prepare the complete record, including all fields, and forward it to IANA for insertion into the registry. If record represents a new subtag that does not currently exist in the registry, then the message's subject line MUST include the word "INSERT". If the record represents a change to an existing subtag, then the subject line of the message MUST include the word "MODIFY". The message MUST contain both the record for the subtag being inserted or modified and the new File-Date record. Here is an example of what the body of the message might contain: LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION File-Date: 2005-01-02 %% Type: variant Subtag: nedis Description: Natisone dialect Description: Nadiza dialect Added: 2003-10-09 Prefix: sl Comments: This is a comment shown as an example. %% Figure 4 Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File- Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the most recent modification date in the [RFC3339] "full-date" format. Values in the 'Subtag' field MUST be lowercase except as provided for in Section 3.1. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 24] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 3.3 Stability of IANA Registry Entries The stability of entries and their meaning in the registry is critical to the long term stability of language tags. The rules in this section guarantee that a specific language tag's meaning is stable over time and will not change. These rules specifically deal with how changes to codes (including withdrawal and deprecation of codes) maintained by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 are reflected in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. Assignments to the IANA Language Subtag Registry MUST follow the following stability rules: o Values in the fields 'Type', 'Subtag', 'Tag', 'Added', 'Deprecated' and 'Preferred-Value' MUST NOT be changed and are guaranteed to be stable over time. o Values in the 'Description' field MUST NOT be changed in a way that would invalidate previously-existing tags. They MAY be broadened somewhat in scope, changed to add information, or adapted to the most common modern usage. For example, countries occasionally change their official names: an historical example of this would be "Upper Volta" changing to "Burkina Faso". o Values in the field 'Prefix' MAY be added to records of type 'variant' via the registration process. o Values in the field 'Prefix' MAY be modified, so long as the modifications broaden the set of prefixes. That is, a prefix MAY be replaced by one of its own prefixes. For example, the prefix "en-US" could be replaced by "en", but not by the prefixes "en- Latn", "fr", or "en-US-boont". If one of those prefixes were needed, a new Prefix SHOULD be registered. o Values in the field 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed. o The field 'Comments' MAY be added, changed, modified, or removed via the registration process or any of the processes or considerations described in this section. o The field 'Suppress-Script' MAY be added or removed via the registration process. o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 25] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166 that are withdrawn by their respective maintenance or registration authority remain valid in language tags. A 'Deprecated' field containing the date of withdrawal is added to the record. If a new record of the same type is added that represents a replacement value, then a 'Preferred-Value' field MAY also be added. The registration process MAY be used to add comments about the withdrawal of the code by the respective standard. * The region code 'TL' was assigned to the country 'Timor-Leste', replacing the code 'TP' (which was assigned to 'East Timor' when it was under administration by Portugal). The subtag 'TP' remains valid in language tags, but its record contains the a 'Preferred-Value' of 'TL' and its field 'Deprecated' contains the date the new code was assigned ('2004-07-06'). o Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166 that conflict with existing subtags of the associated type, including subtags that are deprecated, MUST NOT be entered into the registry. The following additional considerations apply to subtag values that are reassigned: * For ISO 639 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is not represented by a subtag in the IANA registry, the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.4, SHALL prepare a proposal for entering in the IANA registry as soon as practical a registered language subtag as an alternate value for the new code. The form of the registered language subtag will be at the discretion of the Language Subtag Reviewer and MUST conform to other restrictions on language subtags in this document. * For all subtags whose meaning is derived from an external standard (i.e. ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, or UN M.49), if a new meaning is assigned to an existing code and the new meaning broadens the meaning of that code, then the meaning for the associated subtag MAY be changed to match. The meaning of a subtag MUST NOT be narrowed, however, as this can result in an unknown proportion of the existing uses of a subtag becoming invalid. Note: ISO 639 MA/RA has adopted a similar stability policy. * For ISO 15924 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is not represented by a subtag in the IANA registry, the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.4, SHALL prepare a proposal for entering in the IANA registry as soon as practical a registered variant subtag as an alternate value for the new code. The form of the registered variant subtag will be at the discretion of the Language Subtag Reviewer and MUST conform to Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 26] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 other restrictions on variant subtags in this document. * For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with the same UN M.49 code as another 'region' subtag, then the existing region subtag remains as the preferred value for that region and no new entry is created. A comment MAY be added to the existing region subtag indicating the relationship to the new ISO 3166 code. * For ISO 3166 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with a UN M.49 code that is not represented by an existing region subtag, then the Language Subtag Reviewer, as described in Section 3.4, SHALL prepare a proposal for entering the appropriate UN M.49 country code as an entry in the IANA registry. * Codes assigned by UN M.49 to countries or areas (as opposed to geographical regions and sub-regions) for which there is no corresponding ISO 3166 code MUST NOT be registered, except under the previous provision. If it is necessary to identify a region for which only a UN M.49 code exists in language tags, then the registration authority for ISO 3166 SHOULD be petitioned to assign a code, which can then be registered for use in language tags. At the time this document was written, there were only four such codes: 830 (Channel Islands), 831 (Guernsey), 832 (Jersey), and 833 (Isle of Man). This rule exists so that UN M.49 codes remain available as the value of last resort in cases where ISO 3166 reassigns a deprecated value in the registry. * For ISO 3166 codes, if there is no associated UN numeric code, then the Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL petition the UN to create one. If there is no response from the UN within ninety days of the request being sent, the Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL prepare a proposal for entering in the IANA registry as soon as practical a registered variant subtag as an alternate value for the new code. The form of the registered variant subtag will be at the discretion of the Language Subtag Reviewer and MUST conform to other restrictions on variant subtags in this document. This situation is very unlikely to ever occur. o Stability provisions apply to grandfathered tags with this exception: should all of the subtags in a grandfathered tag become valid subtags in the IANA registry, then the field 'Type' in that record is changed from 'grandfathered' to 'redundant'. Note that this will not affect language tags that match the grandfathered tag, since these tags will now match valid generative subtag Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 27] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 sequences. For example, if the subtag 'gan' in the language tag "zh-gan" were to be registered as an extended language subtag, then the grandfathered tag "zh-gan" would be deprecated (but existing content or implementations that use "zh-gan" would remain valid). 3.4 Registration Procedure for Subtags The procedure given here MUST be used by anyone who wants to use a subtag not currently in the IANA Language Subtag Registry. Only subtags of type 'language' and 'variant' will be considered for independent registration of new subtags. Handling of subtags needed for stability and subtags necessary to keep the registry synchronized with ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 within the limits defined by this document are described in Section 3.2. Stability provisions are described in Section 3.3. This procedure MAY also be used to register or alter the information for the "Description", "Comments", "Deprecated", or "Prefix" fields in a subtag's record as described in Section 3.3. Changes to all other fields in the IANA registry are NOT permitted. Registering a new subtag or requesting modifications to an existing tag or subtag starts with the requester filling out the registration form reproduced below. Note that each response is not limited in size so that the request can adequately describe the registration. The fields in the "Record Requested" section SHOULD follow the requirements in Section 3.1. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 28] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM 1. Name of requester: 2. E-mail address of requester: 3. Record Requested: Type: Subtag: Description: Prefix: Preferred-Value: Deprecated: Suppress-Script: Comments: 4. Intended meaning of the subtag: 5. Reference to published description of the language (book or article): 6. Any other relevant information: Figure 5 The subtag registration form MUST be sent to for a two week review period before it can be submitted to IANA. (This is an open list and can be joined by sending a request to .) Variant and extlang subtags are always registered for use with a particular range of language tags. For example, the subtag 'rozaj' is intended for use with language tags that start with the primary language subtag "sl", since Resian is a dialect of Slovenian. Thus the subtag 'rozaj' could be included in tags such as "sl-Latn-rozaj" or "sl-IT-rozaj". This information is stored in the "Prefix" field in the registry. Variant registration requests are REQUIRED to include at least one "Prefix" field in the registration form. The 'Prefix' field for a given registered subtag will be maintained in the IANA registry as a guide to usage. Additional prefixes MAY be added by filing an additional registration form. In that form, the "Any other relevant information:" field MUST indicate that it is the addition of a prefix. Requests to add a prefix to a variant subtag that imply a different semantic meaning will probably be rejected. For example, a request to add the prefix "de" to the subtag 'nedis' so that the tag "de- nedis" represented some German dialect would be rejected. The 'nedis' subtag represents a particular Slovenian dialect and the additional registration would change the semantic meaning assigned to the subtag. A separate subtag SHOULD be proposed instead. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 29] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The 'Description' field MUST contain a description of the tag being registered written or transcribed into the Latin script; it MAY also include a description in a non-Latin script. Non-ASCII characters MUST be escaped using the syntax described in Section 3.1. The 'Description' field is used for identification purposes and doesn't necessarily represent the actual native name of the language or variation or to be in any particular language. While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.3. The Language Subtag Reviewer is responsible for responding to requests for the registration of subtags through the registration process and is appointed by the IESG. When the two week period has passed the Language Subtag Reviewer either forwards the record to be inserted or modified to iana@iana.org according to the procedure described in Section 3.2, or rejects the request because of significant objections raised on the list or due to problems with constraints in this document (which MUST be explicitly cited). The reviewer MAY also extend the review period in two week increments to permit further discussion. The reviewer MUST indicate on the list whether the registration has been accepted, rejected, or extended following each two week period. Note that the reviewer can raise objections on the list if he or she so desires. The important thing is that the objection MUST be made publicly. The applicant is free to modify a rejected application with additional information and submit it again; this restarts the two week comment period. Decisions made by the reviewer MAY be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF decisions [RFC2026]. All approved registration forms are available online in the directory http://www.iana.org/numbers.html under "languages". Updates or changes to existing records follow the same procedure as new registrations. The Language Subtag Reviewer decides whether there is consensus to update the registration following the two week review period; normally objections by the original registrant will carry extra weight in forming such a consensus. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 30] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Registrations are permanent and stable. Once registered, subtags will not be removed from the registry and will remain a valid way in which to specify a specific language or variant. Note: The purpose of the "Description" in the registration form is intended as an aid to people trying to verify whether a language is registered or what language or language variation a particular subtag refers to. In most cases, reference to an authoritative grammar or dictionary of that language will be useful; in cases where no such work exists, other well known works describing that language or in that language MAY be appropriate. The subtag reviewer decides what constitutes "good enough" reference material. This requirement is not intended to exclude particular languages or dialects due to the size of the speaker population or lack of a standardized orthography. Minority languages will be considered equally on their own merits. 3.5 Possibilities for Registration Possibilities for registration of subtags or information about subtags include: o Primary language subtags for languages not listed in ISO 639 that are not variants of any listed or registered language can be registered. At the time this document was created there were no examples of this form of subtag. Before attempting to register a language subtag, there MUST be an attempt to register the language with ISO 639. No language subtags will be registered for codes that exist in ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2, which are under consideration by the ISO 639 maintenance or registration authorities, or which have never been attempted for registration with those authorities. If ISO 639 has previously rejected a language for registration, it is reasonable to assume that there must be additional very compelling evidence of need before it will be registered in the IANA registry (to the extent that it is very unlikely that any subtags will be registered of this type). o Dialect or other divisions or variations within a language, its orthography, writing system, regional or historical usage, transliteration or other transformation, or distinguishing variation MAY be registered as variant subtags. An example is the 'rozaj' subtag (the Resian dialect of Slovenian). o The addition or maintenance of fields (generally of an informational nature) in Tag or Subtag records as described in Section 3.1 and subject to the stability provisions in Section 3.3. This includes descriptions; comments; deprecation and preferred values for obsolete or withdrawn codes; or the addition of script or extlang information to primary language Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 31] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 subtags. o The addition of records and related field value changes necessary to reflect assignments made by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166, and UN M.49 as described in Section 3.3. This document leaves the decision on what subtags or changes to subtags are appropriate (or not) to the registration process described in Section 3.4. Note: four character primary language subtags are reserved to allow for the possibility of alpha4 codes in some future addition to the ISO 639 family of standards. ISO 639 defines a maintenance agency for additions to and changes in the list of languages in ISO 639. This agency is: International Information Centre for Terminology (Infoterm) Aichholzgasse 6/12, AT-1120 Wien, Austria Phone: +43 1 26 75 35 Ext. 312 Fax: +43 1 216 32 72 ISO 639-2 defines a maintenance agency for additions to and changes in the list of languages in ISO 639-2. This agency is: Library of Congress Network Development and MARC Standards Office Washington, D.C. 20540 USA Phone: +1 202 707 6237 Fax: +1 202 707 0115 URL: http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639 The maintenance agency for ISO 3166 (country codes) is: ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency c/o International Organization for Standardization Case postale 56 CH-1211 Geneva 20 Switzerland Phone: +41 22 749 72 33 Fax: +41 22 749 73 49 URL: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/index.html The registration authority for ISO 15924 (script codes) is: Unicode Consortium Box 391476 Mountain View, CA 94039-1476, USA URL: http://www.unicode.org/iso15924 The Statistics Division of the United Nations Secretariat maintains the Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use and can be Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 32] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 reached at: Statistical Services Branch Statistics Division United Nations, Room DC2-1620 New York, NY 10017, USA Fax: +1-212-963-0623 E-mail: statistics@un.org URL: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49alpha.htm 3.6 Extensions and Extensions Namespace Extension subtags are those introduced by single-letter subtags other than 'x'. They are reserved for the generation of identifiers which contain a language component, and are compatible with applications that understand language tags. For example, they might be used to define locale identifiers, which are generally based on language. The structure and form of extensions are defined by this document so that implementations can be created that are forward compatible with applications that might be created using single-letter subtags in the future. In addition, defining a mechanism for maintaining single- letter subtags will lend to the stability of this document by reducing the likely need for future revisions or updates. Allocation of a single-letter subtag SHALL take the form of an RFC defining the name, purpose, processes, and procedures for maintaining the subtags. The maintaining or registering authority, including name, contact email, discussion list email, and URL location of the registry MUST be indicated clearly in the RFC. The RFC MUST specify or include each of the following: o The specification MUST reference the specific version or revision of this document that governs its creation and MUST reference this section of this document. o The specification and all subtags defined by the specification MUST follow the ABNF and other rules for the formation of tags and subtags as defined in this document. In particular it MUST specify that case is not significant and that subtags MUST NOT exceed eight characters in length. o The specification MUST specify a canonical representation. o The specification of valid subtags MUST be available over the Internet and at no cost. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 33] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 o The specification MUST be in the public domain or available via a royalty-free license acceptable to the IETF and specified in the RFC. o The specification MUST be versioned and each version of the specification MUST be numbered, dated, and stable. o The specification MUST be stable. That is, extension subtags, once defined by a specification, MUST NOT be retracted or change in meaning in any substantial way. o The specification MUST include in a separate section the registration form reproduced in this section (below) to be used in registering the extension upon publication as an RFC. o IANA MUST be informed of changes to the contact information and URL for the specification. IANA will maintain a registry of allocated single-letter (singleton) subtags. This registry will use the record-jar format described by the ABNF in Section 3.1. Upon publication of an extension as an RFC, the maintaining authority defined in the RFC MUST forward this registration form to iesg@ietf.org, who will forward the request to iana@iana.org. The maintaining authority of the extension MUST maintain the accuracy of the record by sending an updated full copy of the record to iana@iana.org with the subject line "LANGUAGE TAG EXTENSION UPDATE" whenever content changes. Only the 'Comments', 'Contact_Email', 'Mailing_List', and 'URL' fields MAY be modified in these updates. Failure to maintain this record, the corresponding registry, or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document MAY be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 34] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 %% Identifier: Description: Comments: Added: RFC: Authority: Contact_Email: Mailing_List: URL: %% Figure 6: Format of Records in the Language Tag Extensions Registry 'Identifier' contains the single letter subtag (singleton) assigned to the extension. The Internet-Draft submitted to define the extension SHOULD specify which letter to use, although the IESG MAY change the assignment when approving the RFC. 'Description' contains the name and description of the extension. 'Comments' is an OPTIONAL field and MAY contain a broader description of the extension. 'Added' contains the date the RFC was published in the "full-date" format specified in [RFC3339]. For example: 2004-06-28 represents June 28, 2004, in the Gregorian calendar. 'RFC' contains the RFC number assigned to the extension. 'Authority' contains the name of the maintaining authority for the extension. 'Contact_Email' contains the email address used to contact the maintaining authority. 'Mailing_List' contains the URL or subscription email address of the mailing list used by the maintaining authority. 'URL' contains the URL of the registry for this extension. The determination of whether an Internet-Draft meets the above conditions and the decision to grant or withhold such authority rests solely with the IESG, and is subject to the normal review and appeals process associated with the RFC process. Extension authors are strongly cautioned that many (including most well-formed) processors will be unaware of any special relationships Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 35] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 or meaning inherent in the order of extension subtags. Extension authors SHOULD avoid subtag relationships or canonicalization mechanisms that interfere with matching or with length restrictions that sometimes exist in common protocols where the extension is used. In particular, applications MAY truncate the subtags in doing matching or in fitting into limited lengths, so it is RECOMMENDED that the most significant information be in the most significant (left-most) subtags, and that the specification gracefully handle truncated subtags. When a language tag is to be used in a specific, known, protocol, it is RECOMMENDED that that the language tag not contain extensions not supported by that protocol. In addition, note that some protocols MAY impose upper limits on the length of the strings used to store or transport the language tag. 3.7 Initialization of the Registry Adoption of this document will REQUIRE an initial version of the registry containing the various subtags initially valid in a language tag. This collection of subtags, along with a description of the process used to create it, is described by [initial-registry]. Registrations that are in process under the rules defined in [RFC3066] when this document is adopted MAY be completed under the former rules, at the discretion of the language tag reviewer. Any new registrations submitted after the adoption of this document MUST be rejected. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 36] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 4. Formation and Processing of Language Tags This section addresses how to use the information in the registry with the tag syntax to choose, form and process language tags. 4.1 Choice of Language Tag One is sometimes faced with the choice between several possible tags for the same body of text. Interoperability is best served when all users use the same language tag in order to represent the same language. If an application has requirements that make the rules here inapplicable, then that application risks damaging interoperability. It is strongly RECOMMENDED that users not define their own rules for language tag choice. Subtags SHOULD only be used where they add useful distinguishing information; extraneous subtags interfere with the meaning, understanding, and processing of language tags. In particular, users and implementations SHOULD follow the 'Prefix' and 'Suppress-Script' fields in the registry (defined in Section 3.1): these fields provide guidance on when specific additional subtags SHOULD (and SHOULD NOT) be used in a language tag. Of particular note, many applications can benefit from the use of script subtags in language tags, as long as the use is consistent for a given context. Script subtags were not formally defined in RFC 3066 and their use can affect matching and subtag identification by implementations of RFC 3066, as these subtags appear between the primary language and region subtags. For example, if a user requests content in an implementation of Section 2.5 of [RFC3066] using the language range "en-US", content labeled "en-Latn-US" will not match the request. Therefore it is important to know when script subtags will customarily be used and when they ought not be used. In the registry, the Suppress-Script field helps ensure greater compatibility between the language tags generated according to the rules in this document and language tags and tag processors or consumers based on RFC 3066 by defining when users SHOULD NOT include a script subtag with a particular primary language subtag. Extended language subtags (type 'extlang' in the registry, see Section 3.1) also appear between the primary language and region subtags and are reserved for future standardization. Applications might benefit from their judicious use in forming language tags in the future. Similar recommendations are expected to apply to their use as apply to script subtags. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 37] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Standards, protocols and applications that reference this document normatively but apply different rules to the ones given in this section MUST specify how the procedure varies from the one given here. The choice of subtags used to form a language tag SHOULD be guided by the following rules: 1. Use as precise a tag as possible, but no more specific than is justified. Avoid using subtags that are not important for distinguishing content in an application. * For example, 'de' might suffice for tagging an email written in German, while "de-CH-1996" is probably unnecessarily precise for such a task. 2. The script subtag SHOULD NOT be used to form language tags unless the script adds some distinguishing information to the tag. The field 'Suppress-Script' in the primary language record in the registry indicates which script subtags do not add distinguishing information for most applications. * For example, the subtag 'Latn' should not be used with the primary language 'en' because nearly all English documents are written in the Latin script and it adds no distinguishing information. However, if a document were written in English mixing Latin script with another script such as Braille ('Brai'), then it might be appropriate to choose to indicate both scripts to aid in content selection, such as the application of a stylesheet. 3. If a tag or subtag has a 'Preferred-Value' field in its registry entry, then the value of that field SHOULD be used to form the language tag in preference to the tag or subtag in which the preferred value appears. * For example, use 'he' for Hebrew in preference to 'iw'. 4. The 'und' (Undetermined) primary language subtag SHOULD NOT be used to label content, even if the language is unknown. Omitting the language tag altogether is preferred to using a tag with a primary language subtag of 'und'. The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols that require a language tag to be provided. The 'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language tags in certain situations. 5. The 'mul' (Multiple) primary language subtag SHOULD NOT be used whenever the protocol allows the separate tags for multiple Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 38] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 languages, as is the case for the Content-Language header in HTTP. The 'mul' subtag conveys little useful information: content in multiple languages SHOULD individually tag the languages where they appear or otherwise indicate the actual language in preference to the 'mul' subtag. 6. The same variant subtag SHOULD NOT be used more than once within a language tag. * For example, do not use "de-DE-1901-1901". To ensure consistent backward compatibility, this document contains several provisions to account for potential instability in the standards used to define the subtags that make up language tags. These provisions mean that no language tag created under the rules in this document will become obsolete. 4.2 Meaning of the Language Tag The relationship between the tag and the information it relates to is defined by the the context in which the tag appears. Accordingly, this section can only give possible examples of its usage. o For a single information object, the associated language tags might be interpreted as the set of languages that is necessary for a complete comprehension of the complete object. Example: Plain text documents. o For an aggregation of information objects, the associated language tags could be taken as the set of languages used inside components of that aggregation. Examples: Document stores and libraries. o For information objects whose purpose is to provide alternatives, the associated language tags could be regarded as a hint that the content is provided in several languages, and that one has to inspect each of the alternatives in order to find its language or languages. In this case, the presence of multiple tags might not mean that one needs to be multi-lingual to get complete understanding of the document. Example: MIME multipart/ alternative. o In markup languages, such as HTML and XML, language information can be added to each part of the document identified by the markup structure (including the whole document itself). For example, one could write C'est la vie. inside a Norwegian document; the Norwegian-speaking user could then access a French-Norwegian dictionary to find out what the marked section meant. If the user were listening to that document through a Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 39] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 speech synthesis interface, this formation could be used to signal the synthesizer to appropriately apply French text-to-speech pronunciation rules to that span of text, instead of applying the inappropriate Norwegian rules. Language tags are related when they contain a similar sequence of subtags. For example, if a language tag B contains language tag A as a prefix, then B is typically "narrower" or "more specific" than A. Thus "zh-Hant-TW" is more specific than "zh-Hant". This relationship is not guaranteed in all cases: specifically, languages that begin with the same sequence of subtags are NOT guaranteed to be mutually intelligible, although they might be. For example, the tag "az" shares a prefix with both "az-Latn" (Azerbaijani written using the Latin script) and "az-Cyrl" (Azerbaijani written using the Cyrillic script). A person fluent in one script might not be able to read the other, even though the text might be identical. Content tagged as "az" most probably is written in just one script and thus might not be intelligible to a reader familiar with the other script. 4.3 Length Considerations [RFC3066] did not provide an upper limit on the size of language tags. While RFC 3066 did define the semantics of particular subtags in such a way that most language tags consisted of language and region subtags with a combined total length of up to six characters, larger registered tags were not only possible but were actually registered. Neither the language tag syntax nor other requirements in this document impose a fixed upper limit on the number of subtags in a language tag (and thus an upper bound on the size of a tag). The language tag syntax suggests that, depending on the specific language, more subtags (and thus a longer tag) are sometimes necessary to completely identify the language for certain applications; thus it is possible to envision long or complex subtag sequences. 4.3.1 Working with Limited Buffer Sizes Some applications and protocols are forced to allocate fixed buffer sizes or otherwise limit the length of a language tag. A conformant implementation or specification MAY refuse to support the storage of language tags which exceed a specified length. Any such limitation SHOULD be clearly documented, and such documentation SHOULD include what happens to longer tags (for example, whether an error value is generated or the language tag is truncated). A protocol that allows Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 40] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 tags to be truncated at an arbitrary limit, without giving any indication of what that limit is, has the potential for causing harm by changing the meaning of tags in substantial ways. In practice, most language tags do not require more than a few subtags and will not approach reasonably sized buffer limitations: see Section 4.1. Some specifications or protocols have limits on tag length but do not have a fixed length limitation. For example, [RFC2231] has no explicit length limitation: the length available for the language tag is constrained by the length of other header components (such as the charset's name) coupled with the 76 character limit in [RFC2047]. Thus the "limit" might be 50 or more characters, but it could potentially be quite small. The considerations for assigning a buffer limit are: Implementations SHOULD NOT truncate language tags unless the meaning of the tag is purposefully being changed, or unless the tag does not fit into a limited buffer size specified by a protocol for storage or transmission. Implementations SHOULD warn the user when a tag is truncated since truncation changes the semantic meaning of the tag. Implementations of protocols or specifications that are space constrained but do not have a fixed limit SHOULD use the longest possible tag in preference to truncation. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags MUST allow for language tags of up to 33 characters. Protocols or specifications that specify limited buffer sizes for language tags SHOULD allow for language tags of at least 42 characters. The following illustration shows how the 42-character recommendation was derived. The combination of language and extended language subtags was chosen for future compatibility. At up to 15 characters, this combination is longer than the longest possible primary language subtag (8 characters): Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 41] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 language =3D 3 (ISO 639-2; ISO 639-1 requires 2) extlang1 =3D 4 (each subsequent subtag includes '-') extlang2 =3D 4 (unlikely: needs prefix=3D"language-extlang1") extlang3 =3D 4 (extremely unlikely) script =3D 5 (if not suppressed: see Section 4.1) region =3D 4 (UN M.49; ISO 3166 requires 3) variant1 =3D 9 (MUST have language as a prefix) variant2 =3D 9 (MUST have language-variant1 as a prefix) total =3D 42 characters Figure 7: Derivation of the Limit on Tag Length 4.3.2 Truncation of Language Tags Truncation of a language tag alters the meaning of the tag, and thus SHOULD be avoided. However, truncation of language tags is sometimes necessary due to limited buffer sizes. Such truncation MUST NOT permit a subtag to be chopped off in the middle or the formation of invalid tags (for example, one ending with the "-" character). This means that applications or protocols which truncate tags MUST do so by progressively removing subtags along with their preceding "-" from the right side of the language tag until the tag is short enough for the given buffer. If the resulting tag ends with a single- character subtag, that subtag and its preceding "-" MUST also be removed. For example: Tag to truncate: zh-Hant-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile-private1 1. zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile 2. zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1 3. zh-Latn-CN-variant1 4. zh-Latn-CN 5. zh-Latn 6. zh Figure 8: Example of Tag Truncation 4.4 Canonicalization of Language Tags Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes, language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form. A language tag is in canonical form when: Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 42] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 1. The tag is well-formed according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2. 2. Subtags of type 'Region' that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1) SHOULD be replaced with their mapped value. 3. Redundant or grandfathered tags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items are either deprecated mappings created before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or additions to this document (for example, "zh-guoyu" might be mapped to a language-extlang combination such as "zh-cmn" by some future update of this document). 4. Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in the IANA registry (see Section 3.1) MUST be replaced with their mapped value. These items consist entirely of clerical corrections to ISO 639-1 in which the deprecated subtags have been maintained for compatibility purposes. 5. If more than one extension subtag sequence exists, the extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. Example: The language tag "en-A-aaa-B-ccc-bbb-x-xyz" is in canonical form, while "en-B-ccc-bbb-A-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed but not in canonical form. Example: The language tag "en-NH" (English as used in the New Hebrides) is not canonical because the 'NH' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'VU' (Vanuatu), although the tag "en-NH" maintains its validity. Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing subtags (and as described in Section 2.1). All comparisons MUST be performed in a case-insensitive manner. When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry. Note that this corresponds to the following casing rules: uppercase all non-initial two-letter subtags; titlecase all non-initial four-letter subtags; lowercase everything else. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 43] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Note: Case folding of ASCII letters in certain locales, unless carefully handled, sometimes produces non-ASCII character values. The Unicode Character Database file "SpecialCasing.txt" defines the specific cases that are known to cause problems with this. In particular, the letter 'i' (U+0069) in Turkish and Azerbaijani is uppercased to U+0130 (LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I WITH DOT ABOVE). Implementers SHOULD specify a locale-neutral casing operation to ensure that case folding of subtags does not produce this value, which is illegal in language tags. For example, if one were to uppercase the region subtag 'in' using Turkish locale rules, the sequence U+0130 U+004E would result instead of the expected 'IN'. Note: if the field 'Deprecated' appears in a registry record without an accompanying 'Preferred-Value' field, then that tag or subtag is deprecated without a replacement. Validating processors SHOULD NOT generate tags that include these values, although the values are canonical when they appear in a language tag. An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags. Extensions MAY define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted. For example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a- aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa". Another extension might define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from "en-b- aaa-bbb-ccc"). However, extension specifications SHOULD be designed so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in Section 3.6. 4.5 Considerations for Private Use Subtags Private-use subtags require private agreement between the parties that intend to use or exchange language tags that use them and great caution SHOULD be used in employing them in content or protocols intended for general use. Private-use subtags are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement. The value and semantic meaning of private-use tags and of the subtags used within such a language tag are not defined by this document. The use of subtags defined in the IANA registry as having a specific private use meaning convey more information that a purely private use tag prefixed by the singleton subtag 'x'. For applications this additional information MAY be useful. For example, the region subtags 'AA', 'ZZ' and in the ranges Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 44] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 'QM'-'QZ' and 'XA'-'XZ' (derived from ISO 3166 private use codes) MAY be used to form a language tag. A tag such as "zh-Hans-XQ" conveys a great deal of public, interchangeable information about the language material (that it is Chinese in the simplified Chinese script and is suitable for some geographic region 'XQ'). While the precise geographic region is not known outside of private agreement, the tag conveys far more information than an opaque tag such as "x-someLang", which contains no information about the language subtag or script subtag outside of the private agreement. However, in some cases content tagged with private use subtags MAY interact with other systems in a different and possibly unsuitable manner compared to tags that use opaque, privately defined subtags, so the choice of the best approach sometimes depends on the particular domain in question. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 45] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 5. IANA Considerations This section deals with the processes and requirements necessary for IANA to undertake to maintain the subtag and extension registries as defined by this document and in accordance with the requirements of [RFC2434]. The impact on the IANA maintainers of the two registries defined by this document will be a small increase in the frequency of new entries or updates. 5.1 Language Subtag Registry Upon adoption of this document, the registry will be initialized by a companion document: [initial-registry]. The criteria and process for selecting the initial set of records is described in that document. The initial set of records represents no impact on IANA, since the work to create it will be performed externally. The new registry MUST be listed under "Language Tags" at , replacing the existing registrations defined by [RFC3066]. The existing set of registration forms and RFC 3066 registrations will be relabeled as "Language Tags (Obsolete)" and maintained (but not added to or modified). Future work on the Language Subtag Registry will be limited to inserting or replacing whole records preformatted for IANA by the Language Subtag Reviewer as described in Section 3.2 of this document. This simplifies IANA's work by limiting it to placing the text in the appropriate location in the registry. Each record will be sent to iana@iana.org with a subject line indicating whether the enclosed record is an insertion of a new record (indicated by the word "INSERT" in the subject line) or a replacement of an existing record (indicated by the word "MODIFY" in the subject line). Records MUST NOT be deleted from the registry. IANA MUST place any inserted or modified records into the appropriate section of the language subtag registry, grouping the records by their "Type" field. Inserted records MAY be placed anywhere in the appropriate section; there is no guarantee of the order of the records beyond grouping them together by 'Type'. Modified records MUST overwrite the record they replace. Included in any request to insert or modify records MUST be a new File-Date record. This record MUST be placed first in the registry. In the event that the File-Date record present in the registry has a later date then the record being inserted or modified, the existing record MUST be preserved. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 46] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 5.2 Extensions Registry The Language Tag Extensions registry will also be generated and sent to IANA as described in Section 3.6. This registry can contain at most 35 records and thus changes to this registry are expected to be very infrequent. Future work by IANA on the Language Tag Extensions Registry is limited to two cases. First, the IESG MAY request that new records be inserted into this registry from time to time. These requests will include the record to insert in the exact format described in Section 3.6. In addition, there MAY be occasional requests from the maintaining authority for a specific extension to update the contact information or URLs in the record. These requests MUST include the complete, updated record. IANA is not responsible for validating the information provided, only that it is properly formatted. It should reasonably be seen to come from the maintaining authority named in the record present in the registry. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 47] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 6. Security Considerations Language tags used in content negotiation, like any other information exchanged on the Internet, might be a source of concern because they might be used to infer the nationality of the sender, and thus identify potential targets for surveillance. This is a special case of the general problem that anything sent is visible to the receiving party and possibly to third parties as well. It is useful to be aware that such concerns can exist in some cases. The evaluation of the exact magnitude of the threat, and any possible countermeasures, is left to each application protocol (see BCP 72 [RFC3552] for best current practice guidance on security threats and defenses). The language tag associated with a particular information item is of no consequence whatsoever in determining whether that content might contain possible homographs. The fact that a text is tagged as being in one language or using a particular script subtag provides no assurance whatsoever that it does not contain characters from scripts other than the one(s) associated with or specified by that language tag. Since there is no limit to the number of variant, private use, and extension subtags, and consequently no limit on the possible length of a tag, implementations need to guard against buffer overflow attacks. See Section 4.3 for details on language tag truncation, which can occur as a consequence of defenses against buffer overflow. Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see: Section 3.6) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 48] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 7. Character Set Considerations The syntax in this document requires that language tags use only the characters A-Z, a-z, 0-9, and HYPHEN-MINUS, which are present in most character sets, so the composition of language tags should not have any character set issues. Rendering of characters based on the content of a language tag is not addressed in this memo. Historically, some languages have relied on the use of specific character sets or other information in order to infer how a specific character should be rendered (notably this applies to language and culture specific variations of Han ideographs as used in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean). When language tags are applied to spans of text, rendering engines can use that information in deciding which font to use in the absence of other information, particularly where languages with distinct writing traditions use the same characters. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 49] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 8. Changes from RFC 3066 The main goals for this revision of language tags were the following: *Compatibility.* All valid RFC 3066 language tags (including those in the IANA registry) remain valid in this specification. Thus there is complete backward compatibility of this specification with existing content. In addition, this document defines language tags in such as way as to ensure future compatibility, and processors based solely on the RFC 3066 ABNF (such as those described in [XMLSchema]) will be able to process tags described by this document. *Stability.* Because of the changes in underlying ISO standards, a valid RFC 3066 language tag may become invalid (or have its meaning change) at a later date. With so much of the world's computing infrastructure dependent on language tags, this is simply unacceptable: it invalidates content that may have an extensive shelf-life. In this specification, once a language tag is valid, it remains valid forever. Previously, there was no way to determine when two tags were equivalent. This specification provides a stable mechanism for doing so, through the use of canonical forms. These are also stable, so that implementations can depend on the use of canonical forms to assess equivalency. *Validity.* The structure of language tags defined by this document makes it possible to determine if a particular tag is well-formed without regard for the actual content or "meaning" of the tag as a whole. This is important because the registry and underlying standards change over time. In addition, it must be possible to determine if a tag is valid (or not) for a given point in time in order to provide reproducible, testable results. This process must not be error-prone; otherwise even intelligent people will generate implementations that give different results. This specification provides for that by having a single data file, with specific versioning information, so that the validity of language tags at any point in time can be precisely determined (instead of interpolating values from many separate sources). *Extensibility.* It is important to be able to differentiate between written forms of language -- for many implementations this is more important than distinguishing between spoken variants of a language. Languages are written in a wide variety of different scripts, so this document provides for the generative use of ISO 15924 script codes. Like the generative use of ISO language and country codes in RFC 3066, this allows combinations to be produced without resorting to the registration process. The addition of UN codes provides for the generation of language tags with regional scope, which is also required for information technology. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 50] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 The recast of the registry from containing whole language tags to subtags is a key part of this. An important feature of RFC 3066 was that it allowed generative use of subtags. This allows people to meaningfully use generated tags, without the delays in registering whole tags, and the burden on the registry of having to supply all of the combinations that people may find useful. Because of the widespread use of language tags, it is potentially disruptive to have periodic revisions of the core specification, despite demonstrated need. The extension mechanism provides for a way for independent RFCs to define extensions to language tags. These extensions have a very constrained, well-defined structure to prevent extensions from interfering with implementations of language tags defined in this document. The document also anticipates features of ISO 639-3 with the addition of the extended language subtags, as well as the possibility of other ISO 639 parts becoming useful for the formation of language tags in the future. The use and definition of private use tags has also been modified, to allow people to move as much information as possible out of private use tags, and into the regular structure. The goal is to dramatically reduce the need to produce a revision of this document in the future. The specific changes in this document to meet these goals are: o Defines the ABNF and rules for subtags so that the category of all subtags can be determined without reference to the registry. o Adds the concept of well-formed vs. validating processors, defining the rules by which an implementation can claim to be one or the other. o Replaces the IANA language tag registry with a language subtag registry that provides a complete list of valid subtags in the IANA registry. This allows for robust implementation and ease of maintenance. The language subtag registry becomes the canonical source for forming language tags. o Provides a process that guarantees stability of language tags, by handling reuse of values by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 in the event that they register a previously used value for a new purpose. o Allows ISO 15924 script code subtags and allows them to be used generatively. Defines a method for indicating in the registry when script subtags are necessary for a given language tag. o Adds the concept of a variant subtag and allows variants to be used generatively. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 51] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 o Adds the ability to use a class of UN M.49 tags for supra- national regions and to resolve conflicts in the assignment of ISO 3166 codes. o Defines the private-use tags in ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 as the mechanism for creating private-use language, script, and region subtags respectively. o Adds a well-defined extension mechanism. o Defines an extended language subtag, possibly for use with certain anticipated features of ISO 639-3. Ed Note: The following items are provided for the convenience of reviewers and will be removed from the final document. Changes between draft-ietf-ltru-registry-06 and this version are: o Modified the rules for creating the initial-registry draft to require purposefully omitted by eligible codes to be listed (#1034)(R.Presuhn) o Removed the example registry. The initial-registry draft is a better example. Added an informative reference to that document. (A.Phillips) o Modified the introduction to Section 2.2.4 and changed the use of "as used in" for some examples to clarify how UN M.49 codes and other larger regional codes are related to language tags. (K.Broome, P.Constable) o Removed nearly all of the text from Section 3.7 to [initial- registry]. A bit of new glue text pointing to that document was added. (F.Ellermann) o Updated the Section 5 section to reflect the removal of most of the text in Section 3.7 and to generally clean it up. This includes breaking it into subsections. (A.Phillips) Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 52] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 9. References 9.1 Normative References [ISO639-1] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639- 1:2002, Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 1: Alpha-2 code", ISO Standard 639, 2002, . [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639- 2:1998 - Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code - edition 1", August 1988, . [ISO15924] ISO TC46/WG3, "ISO 15924:2003 (E/F) - Codes for the representation of names of scripts", January 2004, . [ISO3166] International Organization for Standardization, "Codes for the representation of names of countries, 3rd edition", ISO Standard 3166, August 1988, . [UN_M.49] Statistical Division, United Nations, "Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use", UN Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use, Revision 4 (United Nations publication, Sales No. 98.XVII.9, June 1999, . [ISO10646] International Organization for Standardization, "ISO/IEC 10646-1:2000. Information technology -- Universal Multiple-Octet Coded Character Set (UCS) -- Part 1: Architecture and Basic Multilingual Plane and ISO/IEC 10646-2:2001. Information technology -- Universal Multiple-Octet Coded Character Set (UCS) -- Part 2: Supplementary Planes, as, from time to time, amended, replaced by a new edition or expanded by the addition of new parts", 2000, . [RFC2234bis] Crocker, D. and P. Overell, "Augmented BNF for Syntax Specifications: ABNF", draft-crocker-abnf-rfc2234bis-00 (work in progress), March 2005. [RFC2026] Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- Revision 3", BCP 9, RFC 2026, October 1996. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 53] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 [RFC2028] Hovey, R. and S. Bradner, "The Organizations Involved in the IETF Standards Process", BCP 11, RFC 2028, October 1996. [RFC2047] Moore, K., "MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions) Part Three: Message Header Extensions for Non-ASCII Text", RFC 2047, November 1996. [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. [RFC2434] Narten, T. and H. Alvestrand, "Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs", BCP 26, RFC 2434, October 1998. [RFC2781] Hoffman, P. and F. Yergeau, "UTF-16, an encoding of ISO 10646", RFC 2781, February 2000. [RFC2860] Carpenter, B., Baker, F., and M. Roberts, "Memorandum of Understanding Concerning the Technical Work of the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority", RFC 2860, June 2000. [RFC3339] Klyne, G. and C. Newman, "Date and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", RFC 3339, July 2002. [RFC3552] Rescorla, E. and B. Korver, "Guidelines for Writing RFC Text on Security Considerations", BCP 72, RFC 3552, July 2003. 9.2 Informative References [initial-registry] Ewell, D., Ed., "Initial Language Subtag Registry", June 2005, . [iso639.principles] ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee, "ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee: Working principles for ISO 639 maintenance", March 2000, . [record-jar] Raymond, E., "The Art of Unix Programming", 2003. [XML10] Bray (et al), T., "Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0", 02 2004. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 54] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 [XMLSchema] Biron, P., Ed. and A. Malhotra, Ed., "XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes Second Edition", 10 2004, < http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/>. [Unicode] Unicode Consortium, "The Unicode Consortium. The Unicode Standard, Version 4.1.0, defined by: The Unicode Standard, Version 4.0 (Boston, MA, Addison-Wesley, 2003. ISBN 0-321- 18578-1), as amended by Unicode 4.0.1 (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.1) and by Unicode 4.1.0 (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.1.0).", March 2005. [RFC1766] Alvestrand, H., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", RFC 1766, March 1995. [RFC2231] Freed, N. and K. Moore, "MIME Parameter Value and Encoded Word Extensions: Character Sets, Languages, and Continuations", RFC 2231, November 1997. [RFC3066] Alvestrand, H., "Tags for the Identification of Languages", BCP 47, RFC 3066, January 2001. Authors' Addresses Addison Phillips (editor) Quest Software Email: addison.phillips@quest.com Mark Davis (editor) IBM Email: mark.davis@us.ibm.com Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 55] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Appendix A. Acknowledgements Any list of contributors is bound to be incomplete; please regard the following as only a selection from the group of people who have contributed to make this document what it is today. The contributors to RFC 3066 and RFC 1766, the precursors of this document, made enormous contributions directly or indirectly to this document and are generally responsible for the success of language tags. The following people (in alphabetical order) contributed to this document or to RFCs 1766 and 3066: Glenn Adams, Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Tim Berners-Lee, Marc Blanchet, Nathaniel Borenstein, Karen Broome, Eric Brunner, Sean M. Burke, M.T. Carrasco Benitez, Jeremy Carroll, John Clews, Jim Conklin, Peter Constable, John Cowan, Mark Crispin, Dave Crocker, Martin Duerst, Frank Ellerman, Michael Everson, Doug Ewell, Ned Freed, Tim Goodwin, Dirk-Willem van Gulik, Marion Gunn, Joel Halpren, Elliotte Rusty Harold, Paul Hoffman, Scott Hollenbeck, Richard Ishida, Olle Jarnefors, Kent Karlsson, John Klensin, Alain LaBonte, Eric Mader, Ira McDonald, Keith Moore, Chris Newman, Masataka Ohta, Randy Presuhn, George Rhoten, Markus Scherer, Keld Jorn Simonsen, Thierry Sourbier, Otto Stolz, Tex Texin, Andrea Vine, Rhys Weatherley, Misha Wolf, Francois Yergeau and many, many others. Very special thanks must go to Harald Tveit Alvestrand, who originated RFCs 1766 and 3066, and without whom this document would not have been possible. Special thanks must go to Michael Everson, who has served as language tag reviewer for almost the complete period since the publication of RFC 1766. Special thanks to Doug Ewell, for his production of the first complete subtag registry, and his work in producing a test parser for verifying language tags. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 56] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Appendix B. Examples of Language Tags (Informative) Simple language subtag: de (German) fr (French) ja (Japanese) i-enochian (example of a grandfathered tag) Language subtag plus Script subtag: zh-Hant (Chinese written using the Traditional Chinese script) zh-Hans (Chinese written using the Simplified Chinese script) sr-Cyrl (Serbian written using the Cyrillic script) sr-Latn (Serbian written using the Latin script) Language-Script-Region: zh-Hans-CN (Chinese written using the Simplified script as used in mainland China) sr-Latn-CS (Serbian written using the Latin script as used in Serbia and Montenegro) Language-Variant: sl-rozaj (Resian dialect of Slovenian sl-nedis (Nadiza dialect of Slovenian) Language-Region-Variant: de-CH-1901 (German as used in Switzerland using the 1901 variant [othography]) sl-IT-nedis (Slovenian as used in Italy, Nadiza dialect) Language-Script-Region-Variant: Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 57] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 sl-Latn-IT-nedis (Nadiza dialect of Slovenian written using the Latin script as used in Italy. Note that this tag is NOT RECOMMENDED because subtag 'sl' has a Suppress-Script value of 'Latn') Language-Region: de-DE (German for Germany) en-US (English as used in the United States) es-419 (Spanish appropriate for the Latin America and Caribbean region using the UN region code) Private-use subtags: de-CH-x-phonebk az-Arab-x-AZE-derbend Extended language subtags (examples ONLY: extended languages MUST be defined by revision or update to this document): zh-min zh-min-nan-Hant-CN Private-use registry values: x-whatever (private use using the singleton 'x') qaa-Qaaa-QM-x-southern (all private tags) de-Qaaa (German, with a private script) sr-Latn-QM (Serbian, Latin-script, private region) sr-Qaaa-CS (Serbian, private script, for Serbia and Montenegro) Tags that use extensions (examples ONLY: extensions MUST be defined by revision or update to this document or by RFC): en-US-u-islamCal zh-CN-a-myExt-x-private Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 58] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 en-a-myExt-b-another Some Invalid Tags: de-419-DE (two region tags) a-DE (use of a single character subtag in primary position; note that there are a few grandfathered tags that start with "i-" that are valid) ar-a-aaa-b-bbb-a-ccc (two extensions with same single letter prefix) Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 59] =0C Internet-Draft langtags-registry June 2005 Intellectual Property Statement The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. Information on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr. The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at ietf-ipr@ietf.org. Disclaimer of Validity This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Copyright Statement Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2005). This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. Acknowledgment Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the Internet Society. Phillips & Davis Expires December 26, 2005 [Page 60] =0C --=_mixed 006A1CFF8825702E_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --=_mixed 006A1CFF8825702E_=-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 15:44:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnLx4-00064q-Mu; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:40:58 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnLx2-000647-HH for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:40:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA12084 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnLhc-0006Zh-2L for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:25:03 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:00:06 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:00:05 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8C68@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: status? last call? Thread-Index: AcV8EeV5bIJ7rMdTTASnOUeHXlfRVA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 19:00:06.0536 (UTC) FILETIME=[99230880:01C57C13] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] status? last call? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0709262545==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0709262545== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBDby1jaGFpcnMsDQoNCkkgbm90aWNlIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHR3byBvcGVuIGlzc3Vl czoNCg0KIzEwMjYgIkd1ZXJuc2V5IGFuZCBKZXJzZXkiLCB3aGljaCBSYW5keSBoYXMgcmVtYXJr ZWQgb24tbGlzdCBhcyByZXNvbHZlZCBhbmQgd2hpY2ggbm8gbG9uZ2VyIGFmZmVjdCB0aGUgcmVn aXN0cnkgZHJhZnQgKHRoZXkgYWZmZWN0IHRoZSBpbml0aWFsIGRyYWZ0IG5vdykNCg0KIzk0NCAi TUFZIGEgY29uZm9ybWFudCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBpbXBvc2UgbGVuZ3RoIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRz PyIgd2hpY2ggSSBjaGVja2VkIG9mZiBzZXZlcmFsIGRyYWZ0cyBhZ28sIHdoZW4gdGhlbi1zZWN0 aW9uIDIuMS4xIHdhcyBtb3ZlZCB0byBub3ctc2VjdGlvbiA0LjMuIEkgYmVsaWV2ZSB0aGlzIGlz IHJlc29sdmVkLiBQbGVhc2UgY29uZmlybS4NCg0KT25jZSBhZ2FpbiwgSSBhcHBlYWwgdG8geW91 IHRvIGxldCB1cyBrbm93IHdoZXJlIHdlIHN0YW5kIHJlZ2FyZGluZyBhIExhc3QgQ2FsbC4NCg0K QWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCwg UXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cucXVlc3QuY29tDQoNCkNoYWlyLCBXM0MgSW50ZXJu YXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gQ29yZSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9JbnRl cm5hdGlvbmFsDQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBp cyBhbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuIA0KDQoNCg== --===============0709262545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0709262545==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 16:49:23 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnN1H-0007z0-O8; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:49:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnN1F-0007w4-DZ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:49:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA21003 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnNQb-0006aW-C9 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:15:33 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-35-218.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.35.218] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnN19-0000ow-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:49:15 -0400 Message-ID: <017701c57c23$63375f40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Subject: Issue [psg.com #999] history (was Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:53:07 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Karen - > From: > To: "Addison Phillips" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical question: > Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the regional > variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional variant > before the script variant because for me, the script variant only applies > if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in both > the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the direction of > an archive on the topic, that would help. ... The ticket manager is at https://rt.psg.com/ (user & password "ietf") and this particular issue was number 999. There was *lots* of discussion on this, and it took a long time to come to a compromise. A good place to start is with message http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg00974.html The short version is that if we did not have legacy code and data to deal with, we'd probably have done it differently. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 17:14:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNPr-0003ZP-5T; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNPq-0003Xy-Fb for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26624 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnNpF-0002Jj-WE for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:41:03 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5SLEV6p024899; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:31 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Message-ID: <20050628211430.GB3580@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical question: > Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the regional > variant? Because the same language in different scripts is more likely to be a barrier to intelligibility than the same language in different regional variants. As a native speaker and reader of en-us, I have no trouble with most kinds of en-gb spoken or written, but English in Braille is totally useless to me. > I likely would have structured it with the regional variant > before the script variant because for me, the script variant only applies > if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in both > the written and spoken contexts. True enough, but nothing *requires* the use of a script subtag, and in some particular cases (where there is an obvious default) they are actually forbidden: you use the Latn tag with en, e.g. -- John Cowan www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com Lope de Vega: "It wonders me I can speak at all. Some caitiff rogue did rudely yerk me on the knob, wherefrom my wits still wander." An Englishman: "Ay, a filchman to the nab betimes 'll leave a man crank for a spell." --Harry Turtledove, Ruled Britannia _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 17:20:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNVU-0006Ot-Oh; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:20:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNVT-0006Oi-83 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:20:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27220 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnNup-0002bd-5v for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:46:50 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-35-218.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.35.218] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnNVD-0006Uy-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:20:19 -0400 Message-ID: <00a501c57c27$b8492fa0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:24:06 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Resolving issue #944 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - I plan to close issue #944 on length constraints, marking it resolved. If you object, or believe that the recently-submitted -07 draft does not reflect WG consensus, please speak up NOW. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 17:23:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNYa-0007hT-2L; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:23:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNYY-0007g6-HB for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:23:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA27576 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnNxx-0002jA-S3 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:50:03 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-35-218.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.35.218] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnNYW-0007YT-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:23:44 -0400 Message-ID: <00b301c57c28$34c9bea0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:27:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Issue #1026 (Guernsey and Jersey) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Based on the mailing list discussion, I've marked this issue "resolved". Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 17:36:37 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNkz-0003Ln-LM; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:36:37 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnNky-0003Lf-9N for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:36:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28872 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnOAN-0003IA-M6 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:02:52 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-35-218.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.35.218] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-borzoi.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnNku-0003AO-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:36:33 -0400 Message-ID: <00dd01c57c29$ff3824a0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:40:25 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Are there any remaining issues with the registry drafts? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - If there are any remaining issues with either the registry draft or with the initial registry, please post them NOW. Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 17:52:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnO0O-0008Q6-3C; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:52:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnO0M-0008Ob-5o for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:52:30 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA00546 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnNt7-0002zU-RM for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:45:01 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:45:01 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:45:01 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:50:13 +0200 Organization: Lines: 44 Message-ID: <42C1C615.C0A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8C68@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > #1026 "Guernsey and Jersey" [...] > which no longer affect the registry draft (they > affect the initial draft now) [...] > let us know where we stand regarding a Last Call. I'm not yet sure that there's really no registration rule in Doug's initial registry. All registration rules would belong to the registry draft. NOW (timestamp of this article) the initial registry still says: | The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated | with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be added to | the initial version of the registry. These values MAY be | requested for registration by individuals using the process | defined in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] and according to the | rules described therein. The MUST NOT is an editorial issue, the MAY is a rule, it affects the potential registration of 830, 831, 832, and 833, and it's incompatible with 2.2.4 clause 3.E: | E. All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do | not have an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be | entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form | language tags. For more information about these codes, | see Section 3.3. Draft -07 section 3.3 bullet 10 (conflict) star 6 (no alpha-2) states again that 830..833 cannot be registered. BTW, that is no "conflict", maybe extract the 6th "no alpha-2" item from "bullet 10" and add it after bullet 10 before the last bullet. Counting bullets and stars is a PITA. Is there really no way to initialize the counter for a or for a ? Wilbur's
    already had a START=, that's not exactly a new idea. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 18:04:47 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOCF-0005fk-5W; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:04:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOCD-0005fc-Rq for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:04:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02140 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.65]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnObe-0004Mc-BA for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:31:02 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-35-218.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.35.218] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnOCB-0004QU-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:04:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c57c2d$eebc0840$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8C68@irvmbxw01.quest.com> <42C1C615.C0A@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:08:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Finishing off #1026 (Was: Re: status? last call?) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - Ok, I've re-opened 1026 until this is resolved. Randy, ltru co-chair > From: "Frank Ellermann" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:50 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? > > Addison Phillips wrote: > > > #1026 "Guernsey and Jersey" > [...] > > which no longer affect the registry draft (they > > affect the initial draft now) > [...] > > let us know where we stand regarding a Last Call. > > I'm not yet sure that there's really no registration > rule in Doug's initial registry. All registration > rules would belong to the registry draft. > > NOW (timestamp of this article) the initial registry > still says: > > | The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated > | with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be added to > | the initial version of the registry. These values MAY be > | requested for registration by individuals using the process > | defined in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] and according to the > | rules described therein. > > The MUST NOT is an editorial issue, the MAY is a rule, > it affects the potential registration of 830, 831, 832, > and 833, and it's incompatible with 2.2.4 clause 3.E: > > | E. All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do > | not have an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be > | entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form > | language tags. For more information about these codes, > | see Section 3.3. > > Draft -07 section 3.3 bullet 10 (conflict) star 6 (no alpha-2) > states again that 830..833 cannot be registered. BTW, that is > no "conflict", maybe extract the 6th "no alpha-2" item from > "bullet 10" and add it after bullet 10 before the last bullet. > > Counting bullets and stars is a PITA. Is there really no way > to initialize the counter for a or for > a ? Wilbur's
      already had a START=, > that's not exactly a new idea. > Bye, Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 18:17:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOMT-0000vy-00; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOMQ-0000vf-Jp for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03608 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnOlr-0004eo-MR for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:41:35 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:42 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8DE1@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: matching submitted again... Thread-Index: AcV8Kv5/8Nu4E3WBRs2xHD3vYQ62QA== From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 22:16:42.0905 (UTC) FILETIME=[10521890:01C57C2F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] matching submitted again... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2100156211==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============2100156211== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBoYXZlIGp1c3Qgc3VibWl0dGVkIGFuIHVwZGF0ZWQgY29weSBvZiB0aGUgbWF0Y2hpbmcgZHJh ZnQgaW4gd2hpY2ggSSByZW1vdmVkIHRoZSByZWZlcmVuY2VzIGZyb20gdGhlIGFic3RyYWN0LCBz d2l0Y2hlZCB0byBzeW1yZWZzLCBhbmQgZGlkIG9uZSBvciB0d28gb3RoZXIgaG91c2VrZWVwaW5n IGNob3JlcyB0byBzdGF5IGluIHN5bmMgd2l0aCBkZXZlbG9wbWVudHMgaW4gdGhlIG90aGVyIGRy YWZ0cy4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFy 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ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03605; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnOlp-0004eo-EP; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:41:35 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C57C2F.0FFF5AEC" Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:42 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8DE0@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: LTRU Matching draft-03 Thread-Index: AcV8Ks6sLNPfIwFNThiINa1lQcyPzw== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 22:16:42.0702 (UTC) 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aW9uIGlzIGN1cnJlbnRseSBwcm92aWRlZCBieSB0aGUNCiAgIEludGVybmV0IFNvY2lldHkuDQoN Cg0KDQoNClBoaWxsaXBzICYgRGF2aXMgICAgICAgIEV4cGlyZXMgRGVjZW1iZXIgMzAsIDIwMDUg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIFtQYWdlIDIyXQ0KDA0K ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57C2F.0FFF5AEC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57C2F.0FFF5AEC-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 18:17:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOMT-0000w6-AN; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:21 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOMR-0000vn-8Y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03613 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnOls-0004eo-97 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:41:36 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:43 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:42 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8DE2@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV8Jv3Scmi1L/hsQS6zbfIV0V92DwAAB33g From: "Addison Phillips" To: "John.Cowan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 22:16:43.0155 (UTC) FILETIME=[10783E30:01C57C2F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > True enough, but nothing *requires* the use of a script subtag, and in > some > particular cases (where there is an obvious default) they are actually > forbidden: > you use the Latn tag with en, e.g. Forbidden? No. Strongly discouraged? Yes. There are cases where the = 'Latn' subtag should be used with e.g. the 'en' primary language subtag. Karen, As an additional pointer, you might want to consider this group's = matching draft. "Remove from right" style matching (described in RFC = 3066 and called Basic Matching in the matching draft) is impacted by = where each subtag is placed. Issue #999 recreated the original = discussion that lead to the chosen design within the working group = context and John Cowan's summary (below) is basically the reasoning = behind the position of the subtag. The matching draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-02.html Best Regards, Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of John.Cowan > Sent: mardi 28 juin 2005 14:15 > To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com > Cc: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >=20 > Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > > I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical > question: > > Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the = regional > > variant? >=20 > Because the same language in different scripts is more likely to be a > barrier > to intelligibility than the same language in different regional = variants. > As a native speaker and reader of en-us, I have no trouble with most = kinds > of en-gb spoken or written, but English in Braille is totally useless = to > me. >=20 > > I likely would have structured it with the regional variant > > before the script variant because for me, the script variant only > applies > > if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in = both > > the written and spoken contexts. >=20 > True enough, but nothing *requires* the use of a script subtag, and in > some > particular cases (where there is an obvious default) they are actually > forbidden: > you use the Latn tag with en, e.g. >=20 > -- > John Cowan www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan > jcowan@reutershealth.com > Lope de Vega: "It wonders me I can speak at all. Some caitiff rogue = did > rudely yerk me on the knob, wherefrom my wits still wander." > An Englishman: "Ay, a filchman to the nab betimes 'll leave a man > crank for a spell." --Harry Turtledove, Ruled Britannia >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 18:29:24 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOa4-0005Sl-B5; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:29:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOa3-0005Sg-Rd for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:29:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04997 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:29:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Received: from mail-red.bigfish.com ([216.148.222.61] helo=mail30-red-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnOzT-000589-Nz for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:55:41 -0400 Received: from mail30-red.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail30-red-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2603C4647; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:29:08 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail30-red.bigfish.com (MessageSwitch) id 1119997748775460_6212; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:29:08 +0000 (UCT) Received: from usmta02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.248.62]) by mail30-red.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76163C4626; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:29:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by usmta02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.12) with SMTP id 2005062815362916:78130 ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:36:29 -0700 To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: Re: [Ltru] matching submitted again... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:26:10 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/28/2005 15:26:10, Serialize complete at 06/28/2005 15:26:10, Itemize by SMTP Server on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/28/2005 03:36:29 PM, Serialize by Router on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/28/2005 03:36:33 PM, Serialize complete at 06/28/2005 03:36:33 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Did I miss last call? Forgive me if this is a rushed e-mail. There are references to zh-Hant-TW, etc., throughout the document. I think it directly references zh-Hans-CN as well. I don't think the zh-Hans-CN tag should be considered a best practice because the region type is in many ways making the same distinction as the orthography type. I think the best practice for Simplified Chinese in China should be to specify Mandarin or Cantonese explicitly along with Hant or Hans if written. The description of the zh-Hans-CN tag indicates Mandarin, though none of its building blocks make this specification. This is why I registered zh-cmn-Hant and zh-cmn-Hans. Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 "Addison Phillips" Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 06/28/2005 03:16 PM To: "LTRU Working Group" cc: Subject: [Ltru] matching submitted again... I have just submitted an updated copy of the matching draft in which I removed the references from the abstract, switched to symrefs, and did one or two other housekeeping chores to stay in sync with developments in the other drafts. Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software http://www.quest.com Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group http://www.w3.org/International Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 18:43:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOnK-0000kd-G5; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:43:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOnJ-0000kX-I4 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:43:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06094 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnPCj-00067G-UZ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:09:23 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DnOn8-0007hp-N5; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:42:58 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629001557.04a7ee80@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:42:34 +0200 To: "Randy Presuhn" From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Resolving issue #944 In-Reply-To: <00a501c57c27$b8492fa0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> References: <00a501c57c27$b8492fa0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org On 23:24 28/06/2005, Randy Presuhn said: >I plan to close issue #944 on length constraints, marking it resolved. >If you object, or believe that the recently-submitted -07 >draft does not reflect WG consensus, please speak NOW. Randy, I certainly think it does not reflect any consensus. I accepted to represent this lack of consensus. I therefore whish to know what this short mail means. Is this a WGLC, what is its duration? What is your intended schedule concerning the charter anlaysis? What is your intended schedule to send these Draft to the IESG? Do you prefer to discuss this Draft within the WG or during an IETF last call? A serious review of a document which has grown to the size of a book calls for stable version and a few days. Is this version final in the current author's mind or will there be a -08.txt to take into account the last changes? I am also confuse because you say that #1026 is reopened. I must apologise but I have never been able to understand and I have not the secretariat facility to translate all these number in meaningful post. But I understand from this that -07.txt is not final? However I marvel that in an Internet global doctrinal document Jersey and Gernesey are to so important (I used to navigate there and I incorporated my first company in Jersey ...) jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 18:51:19 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOvH-0003Go-1H; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:51:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnOvF-0003Gg-I8 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:51:17 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06843 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnOnr-0002uF-2e for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:43:39 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:43:38 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:43:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:49:23 +0200 Organization: Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42C1D3F3.5589@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8DE1@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: matching submitted again... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I have just submitted an updated copy of the matching draft Something's odd, you have references to RfC 1327 and 1521 ?!? No new bug, you had these RfCs already in -02 as [2] and [3]. In section 2.1 xml2rfc "invented" a new way of line breaks: | 'language-range' tag, by using the definition from HTTP/1.1 [RFC2616] | : | language-range = language-tag / "*" My clumsy way to force a line break before xml2rfc strikes: If you use 1.30pre0? ⁠ or ⁠ might also do the trick. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 19:05:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnP9J-0007YU-9B; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:05:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnP9H-0007Y9-Do for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:05:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08122 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnPYg-0007Az-FX for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:32:02 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:07:09 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8E1A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? Thread-Index: AcV8LAAyfO7qgWpxRhGj0vvfvnl6TAAAvBQg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 23:07:09.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C8B3310:01C57C36] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Replies below... Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juni 2005 14:50 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > #1026 "Guernsey and Jersey" > [...] > > which no longer affect the registry draft (they > > affect the initial draft now) > [...] > > let us know where we stand regarding a Last Call. >=20 > I'm not yet sure that there's really no registration > rule in Doug's initial registry. All registration > rules would belong to the registry draft. [Addison Phillips]=20 Agreed. >=20 > NOW (timestamp of this article) the initial registry > still says: >=20 > | The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated > | with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be added to > | the initial version of the registry. These values MAY be > | requested for registration by individuals using the process > | defined in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] and according to the > | rules described therein. >=20 > The MUST NOT is an editorial issue, the MAY is a rule, > it affects the potential registration of 830, 831, 832, > and 833, and it's incompatible with 2.2.4 clause 3.E: >=20 > | E. All other UN numeric codes for countries or areas which do > | not have an associated ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be > | entered into the registry and MUST NOT be used to form > | language tags. For more information about these codes, > | see Section 3.3. [Addison Phillips]=20 I'll make a special exception for listed codes that are valid for = registration in Section 2.2.4 clause 3.E., but note that Issue 1026 was = closed by adding the following explicit text that makes these items = ineligible for registration: Codes assigned by UN M.49 to countries or areas (as opposed to = geographical regions and sub-regions) for which there is no = corresponding ISO 3166 code MUST NOT be registered, except under the = previous provision. If it is necessary to identify a region for which = only a UN M.49 code exists in language tags, then the registration = authority for ISO 3166 SHOULD be petitioned to assign a code, which can = then be registered for use in language tags. At the time this document = was written, there were only four such codes: 830 (Channel Islands), 831 = (Guernsey), 832 (Jersey), and 833 (Isle of Man). This rule exists so = that UN M.49 codes remain available as the value of last resort in cases = where ISO 3166 reassigns a deprecated value in the registry. >=20 > Draft -07 section 3.3 bullet 10 (conflict) star 6 (no alpha-2) > states again that 830..833 cannot be registered. BTW, that is > no "conflict", maybe extract the 6th "no alpha-2" item from > "bullet 10" and add it after bullet 10 before the last bullet. [Addison Phillips]=20 Agreed. >=20 > Counting bullets and stars is a PITA. Is there really no way > to initialize the counter for a or for > a ? Wilbur's
        already had a START=3D, > that's not exactly a new idea. [Addison Phillips]=20 Sure there is. I just didn't make the change previously. I'll change it = to letters or numbers once I've looked at which is more appropriate. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 19:05:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnP9J-0007Yw-EH; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:05:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnP9H-0007Y8-DX for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:05:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA08124 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnPYh-0007Az-5q for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:32:03 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:07:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] matching submitted again... Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8E1B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] matching submitted again... Thread-Index: AcV8MQmE9KO/PWh2T16vRDPfIM0Q0AAAbqMg From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2005 23:07:10.0327 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CCE0870:01C57C36] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org ::sigh:: Those tags are registered in the RFC 3066 registry explicitly. What the = RFC 3066 registry actually says is: zh-Hans-CN PRC Mainland Chinese in simplified script [Davis] The description of zh-Hans-CN in the matching and registry documents = NOWHERE say Mandarin or Cantonese or anything of the sort nor imply = anything about spoken language dialects and the like. There is quite an involved thread showing the distinctions of the = regional variations from the script variations and NOT involving = dialects of Chinese in the ietf-languages thread related to the = registration of these values. Great care was exercised in writing the = drafts so as not to incorrectly imply anything about the value of one or = another combination of subtags. Please read the drafts carefully on this = point. Spoken variation and written variation in Chinese are known problem = cases. The introduction of script subtags rescued applications from = having to use a particular region subtag (like 'TW') to imply the script = (a bad policy that: implying one attribute from an unrelated attribute). = I don't think I need to spell out the political problems here. Suffice = it to say that there are at least four interesting ISO 3166 region codes = that can be combined with 'zh', some of which are part of the PRC (like = HK) and some of which are not (like SG). The differences among these do = not stop with script and thus some people felt the need to register the = various tags combining both. Furthermore, RFC 3066bis, like RFC 3066 before it, features a = *generative* syntax which allows subtags to be combined in a variety of = ways, not all of which make sense. Thus the tags presented in the = matching draft will be valid tags even if they are not best practice and = rarely used. However, I suspect that for written content tags of this = nature will not be uncommon. Additional work to indicate spoken = dialects--which also affect word choice in written texts and would use = tags such as zh-cmn-* --will also be useful. Regards, Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] > Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juni 2005 15:26 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] matching submitted again... >=20 > Did I miss last call? Forgive me if this is a rushed e-mail. >=20 > There are references to zh-Hant-TW, etc., throughout the document. I = think > it directly references zh-Hans-CN as well. I don't think the = zh-Hans-CN > tag should be considered a best practice because the region type is in > many ways making the same distinction as the orthography type. >=20 > I think the best practice for Simplified Chinese in China should be to > specify Mandarin or Cantonese explicitly along with Hant or Hans if > written. The description of the zh-Hans-CN tag indicates Mandarin, = though > none of its building blocks make this specification. This is why I > registered zh-cmn-Hant and zh-cmn-Hans. >=20 > Karen Broome > Metadata Systems Designer > Sony Pictures Entertainment > 310.244.4384 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Addison Phillips" > Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > 06/28/2005 03:16 PM >=20 >=20 > To: "LTRU Working Group" > cc: > Subject: [Ltru] matching submitted again... >=20 >=20 > I have just submitted an updated copy of the matching draft in which I > removed the references from the abstract, switched to symrefs, and did = one > or two other housekeeping chores to stay in sync with developments in = the > other drafts. >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com >=20 > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 19:41:17 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnPhd-0000jt-Af; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:41:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnPhc-0000jk-4F for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:41:16 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10850 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnPaF-0001In-NA for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:39 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:39 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:39 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:36:04 +0200 Organization: Lines: 38 Message-ID: <42C1DEE4.4118@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8E1A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > I'll make a special exception for listed codes that are valid > for registration in Section 2.2.4 clause 3.E Sorry, I'm completely confused. IIRC we agreed that 830..833 and similar future cases of "UN region number without alpha-2" are _not_ registered, never, no exception. Maybe I got it wrong, but I didn't ask for exceptional rules, if that's what you thought. If Doug removes your old MAY in his -01 it's fine, that's compatible with your -07 2.2.4 (3.E) >> no "conflict", maybe extract the 6th "no alpha-2" item from >> "bullet 10" and add it after bullet 10 before the last >> bullet. > Agreed. No serious problem of course, moving one sublist item to the parent list shouldn't delay Randy / Martin / Scott with their "last call" business. >> Is there really no way to initialize the counter for a >> or for a ? [...] > Sure there is. I just didn't make the change previously. Oops, how does it work ? My experiments with a list nested within a failed miserably, and a negative hangIndent= value had no effect. > I'll change it to letters or numbers once I've looked at > which is more appropriate. For 2.2.4 (3E) you have letters within numbers. Bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 19:49:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnPpJ-0003Ea-US; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:49:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnPpI-0003ES-EA for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:49:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA11381 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:49:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Received: from mail-res.bigfish.com ([63.161.60.61] helo=mail67-res-R.bigfish.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnQEk-0000mC-7F for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:15:30 -0400 Received: from mail67-res.bigfish.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail67-res-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE8B9DD71; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:48:55 +0000 (UTC) X-BigFish: VP Received: by mail67-res (MessageSwitch) id 1120002535344576_20210; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:48:55 +0000 (UCT) Received: from usmta02.spe.sony.com (unknown [64.14.248.62]) by mail67-res.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F90B9DD3C; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:48:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from usmail04.spe.sony.com ([43.130.148.27]) by usmta02.spe.sony.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.12) with SMTP id 2005062816561898:81576 ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:56:18 -0700 To: "Addison Phillips" Subject: RE: [Ltru] matching submitted again... MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:46:00 -0700 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on USMAIL04/SVR/SPE(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 06/28/2005 16:46:01, Serialize complete at 06/28/2005 16:46:01, Itemize by SMTP Server on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/28/2005 04:56:19 PM, Serialize by Router on MTAOUT/SVR/SPE(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 06/28/2005 04:56:19 PM, Serialize complete at 06/28/2005 04:56:19 PM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 156eddb66af16eef49a76ae923b15b92 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I guess I'm mistaken. I found a couple references that seemed to indicate the term "zhong wen (fan ti zi, zhong guo)" meant Mandarin specifically and not general PRC Chinese. I'm not a student of Chinese language so I realize this was in error and I am not educated in the regional distinctions in Mandarin beyond the orthography. I do think there is a common misperception that Chinese is only written in the Mandarin dialect. I reference this text on the LOC site ISO FAQ: Q. How does one distinguish between Cantonese and Mandarin variations of Chinese? A. The standard was intended for written languages primarily, and *since Chinese is the same in its written form for Cantonese and Mandarin*, no distinction was made in the code list. There are two possible methods for making this distinction using ISO 639 codes. I don't believe the above is true. I also believe that your standard is now intended, although not initially designed, to address my audio identification needs as well. I certainly understand the desire to use Chinese as an example in the RFC because of its complexity. Regards, Karen Broome Metadata Systems Designer Sony Pictures Entertainment 310.244.4384 "Addison Phillips" Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 06/28/2005 04:07 PM To: cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: [Ltru] matching submitted again... ::sigh:: Those tags are registered in the RFC 3066 registry explicitly. What the RFC 3066 registry actually says is: zh-Hans-CN PRC Mainland Chinese in simplified script [Davis] The description of zh-Hans-CN in the matching and registry documents NOWHERE say Mandarin or Cantonese or anything of the sort nor imply anything about spoken language dialects and the like. There is quite an involved thread showing the distinctions of the regional variations from the script variations and NOT involving dialects of Chinese in the ietf-languages thread related to the registration of these values. Great care was exercised in writing the drafts so as not to incorrectly imply anything about the value of one or another combination of subtags. Please read the drafts carefully on this point. Spoken variation and written variation in Chinese are known problem cases. The introduction of script subtags rescued applications from having to use a particular region subtag (like 'TW') to imply the script (a bad policy that: implying one attribute from an unrelated attribute). I don't think I need to spell out the political problems here. Suffice it to say that there are at least four interesting ISO 3166 region codes that can be combined with 'zh', some of which are part of the PRC (like HK) and some of which are not (like SG). The differences among these do not stop with script and thus some people felt the need to register the various tags combining both. Furthermore, RFC 3066bis, like RFC 3066 before it, features a *generative* syntax which allows subtags to be combined in a variety of ways, not all of which make sense. Thus the tags presented in the matching draft will be valid tags even if they are not best practice and rarely used. However, I suspect that for written content tags of this nature will not be uncommon. Additional work to indicate spoken dialects--which also affect word choice in written texts and would use tags such as zh-cmn-* --will also be useful. Regards, Addison Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] > Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juni 2005 15:26 > To: Addison Phillips > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] matching submitted again... > > Did I miss last call? Forgive me if this is a rushed e-mail. > > There are references to zh-Hant-TW, etc., throughout the document. I think > it directly references zh-Hans-CN as well. I don't think the zh-Hans-CN > tag should be considered a best practice because the region type is in > many ways making the same distinction as the orthography type. > > I think the best practice for Simplified Chinese in China should be to > specify Mandarin or Cantonese explicitly along with Hant or Hans if > written. The description of the zh-Hans-CN tag indicates Mandarin, though > none of its building blocks make this specification. This is why I > registered zh-cmn-Hant and zh-cmn-Hans. > > Karen Broome > Metadata Systems Designer > Sony Pictures Entertainment > 310.244.4384 > > > > > "Addison Phillips" > Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > 06/28/2005 03:16 PM > > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > cc: > Subject: [Ltru] matching submitted again... > > > I have just submitted an updated copy of the matching draft in which I > removed the references from the abstract, switched to symrefs, and did one > or two other housekeeping chores to stay in sync with developments in the > other drafts. > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > http://www.quest.com > > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > http://www.w3.org/International > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 19:55:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnPvL-0004ob-Nd; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:55:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnPvK-0004oW-Ns for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:55:26 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA11600 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnPo2-00039J-TI for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:47:54 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:47:54 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:47:54 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:53:53 +0200 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42C1E311.26B6@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8E1B@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: matching submitted again... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > Suffice it to say that there are at least four interesting > ISO 3166 region codes that can be combined with 'zh', at least four four, some say five, about four four or even more various several Yes, "at least four" is the most accurate version... ;-) Bye _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 20:26:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnQP7-0006Dm-Aa; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:26:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnQP5-0006De-Qi for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:26:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14149 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnQoW-0001eO-Nv for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:52:30 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:27:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8E67@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? Thread-Index: AcV8Oy6KezfRTS7+R1yrPNco9VzXKQABOX2w From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Frank Ellermann" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2005 00:27:35.0967 (UTC) FILETIME=[591C42F0:01C57C41] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org See below. Addison P. Phillips Globalization Architect, Quest Software Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On > Behalf Of Frank Ellermann > Sent: Dienstag, 28. Juni 2005 16:36 > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? >=20 > Addison Phillips wrote: >=20 > > I'll make a special exception for listed codes that are valid > > for registration in Section 2.2.4 clause 3.E >=20 > Sorry, I'm completely confused. IIRC we agreed that 830..833 > and similar future cases of "UN region number without alpha-2" > are _not_ registered, never, no exception. [Addison Phillips]=20 Exactly so. 830..833 are not registrable?by rule. The MAY rule in = draft-initial however can be implemented using this text: -- UN numeric codes and ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes for countries or areas = listed as eligible for registration in [initial-registry] (Ewell, D., = Ed., "Initial Language Subtag Registry," June 2005.) but not presently = registered MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the process = described in Section 3.4 (Registration Procedure for Subtags). Once = registered, these codes MAY be used to form language tags. -- >=20 > Maybe I got it wrong, but I didn't ask for exceptional rules, > if that's what you thought. If Doug removes your old MAY in > his -01 it's fine, that's compatible with your -07 2.2.4 (3.E) [Addison Phillips]=20 The new text allows items listed as registrable to be registered, = provided they meet other rules. >=20 > >> no "conflict", maybe extract the 6th "no alpha-2" item from > >> "bullet 10" and add it after bullet 10 before the last > >> bullet. >=20 > > Agreed. >=20 > No serious problem of course, moving one sublist item to the > parent list shouldn't delay Randy / Martin / Scott with their > "last call" business. >=20 > >> Is there really no way to initialize the counter for a > >> or for a ? > [...] >=20 > > Sure there is. I just didn't make the change previously. >=20 > Oops, how does it work ? My experiments with a list nested > within a failed > miserably, and a negative hangIndent=3D value had no effect. [Addison Phillips]=20 Isn't that what "counter" is for? But I misread that as your desire that = we used numbers or letters and not bullets (where we all go bonkers = counting stars and stuff). A list of rules should really be numbered. >=20 > > I'll change it to letters or numbers once I've looked at > > which is more appropriate. >=20 > For 2.2.4 (3E) you have letters within numbers. Bye, Frank >=20 I matched that. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 22:32:33 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnSNN-0001im-Bj; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:32:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnSNL-0001ih-NF for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:32:32 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24243 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnSGE-0007qu-Ow for ltru@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:25:11 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:25:10 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:25:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ltru@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:29:28 +0200 Organization: Lines: 74 Message-ID: <42C20788.4324@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BEB8E67@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison Phillips wrote: > UN numeric codes and ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes for countries or > areas listed as eligible for registration in > [initial-registry] (Ewell, D., Ed., "Initial Language Subtag > Registry," June 2005.) We better wait to see what that will be, an "initial registry" with a separate section of obscure unregistered subtags is odd. > but not presently registered MAY be entered into the IANA > registry via the process described in Section 3.4 So 830..833 can be registered "manually" if they somehow make it to the obscure unregistered subtags section in the initial registry ? And what unregistered ISO 3166 alpha-2 codes are "eligible for registration" ? IMHO there should be no section about obscure unregistered subtags in the initial registry, it's not some kind of "unregistry". > Once registered, these codes MAY be used to form language > tags. Don't write this in the draft. Of course registered subtags "MAY" be used to form tags, that's the point of the registry. > The new text allows items listed as registrable to be > registered, provided they meet other rules. I'm not yet convinced. IIRC we said that 830..833 must not be registered because that would block a future GG, IM, and JE as stated in 3.3 (8): | Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, and ISO 3166 that do | not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and | whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the | same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records. IM would have the same type "region" as 832. There's no other region IM in the registry, so there's no conflict. But IM has the same meaning as 832 => TILT. You could fix it by removing "and whose meaning is the same as an existing subtag of the same type". If one of the 3 source standards intentionally creates an alias without simultaneously deprecating the old code it's no real problem, let them do it. Just get rid of "and whose meaning is the same as an existing subtag of the same type", it only creates confusion. What if the former CS, YU, or SU are recreated with a new name and a new alpha-2 code ? Weird example, but IM + 832 could be real. What's the effect of your proposed change for 888 Somaliland, if ISO 3166 refuses to create an alpa-2 code ? Apparently no effect at all, 888 cannot be registered, If that's the case, why an exception for 830..833 ? Either 888 can be registered like 830..833, or they all cannot be registered, For some days I thought that we agreed on the latter. Now you apparently try to dig a loophole for 830..833 but not 888 (?) [xml2rfc] > Isn't that what "counter" is for? Maybe. I read the 'list' section (= #rfc.section.2.3.1.2) in http://xml.resource.org/authoring/draft-mrose-writing-rfcs.html and thought that it's _only_ about style="format whatever %d". > A list of rules should really be numbered. Yes please, it's much easier to say 2.2.4 (3E), bye, Frank _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 22:52:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnSgN-0006yG-Py; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:52:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnSgM-0006yB-9H for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:52:10 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25053 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050629025138.GSGK24042.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:51:38 -0400 Message-ID: <004201c57c55$70873260$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050628161302.JPKF4366.mta6.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:51:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Draft-01 of initial registry now up X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy Presuhn wrote: >>> Hi Randy, could you please state that we want 034 and 143 IN >>> and 062 OUT. >> >> There is no consensus on this yet. So far Frank, Mark and I agree on >> this, and Randy has a different view. > ... > > I guess you missed message > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg02405.html > There is no disagreement, but you've kept on arguing. :-) I did read it, but missed the significance of "This would address my concerns." Sorry about that. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 23:04:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnSs8-0001u0-0p; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:04:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnSs5-0001rH-JP for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:04:17 -0400 Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA26184 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050629030346.HGQT24042.mta11.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:03:46 -0400 Message-ID: <005201c57c57$25d8eea0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20050628221623.HQOZ24938.mta8.adelphia.net@megatron.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:03:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: status? last call? X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > I'm not yet sure that there's really no registration > rule in Doug's initial registry. All registration > rules would belong to the registry draft. > > NOW (timestamp of this article) the initial registry > still says: > > | The UN numeric codes for countries or areas not associated > | with an assigned ISO 3166 alpha-2 code MUST NOT be added to > | the initial version of the registry. These values MAY be > | requested for registration by individuals using the process > | defined in [I-D.ietf-ltru-registry] and according to the > | rules described therein. Give me some time to get to this. I've been busy the last few days. Not everyone is able to work on LTRU 24/7. > Draft -07 section 3.3 bullet 10 (conflict) star 6 (no alpha-2) > states again that 830..833 cannot be registered. BTW, that is > no "conflict", maybe extract the 6th "no alpha-2" item from > "bullet 10" and add it after bullet 10 before the last bullet. I was quite sure that 830 through 833 could not be registered. > Counting bullets and stars is a PITA. Is there really no way > to initialize the counter for a or for > a ? Wilbur's
          already had a START=, > that's not exactly a new idea. I tend to agree with Frank that numbering these items would make things clearer. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Tue Jun 28 23:56:10 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnTgH-0007fq-T3; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:56:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnTgG-0007fk-7W for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:56:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA29650 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnU5f-0004xl-Fc for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:22:26 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5T3tVI08373; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:55:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id 36037a4e_e853_11d9_9458_0030482532aa_14574; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:06:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5T3wkjm022786; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:59:28 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:08:46 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Addison, others, This question is probably the most frequent question that comes up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for this decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that could be moved to the appendix, too. Regards, Martin. At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical question: >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the regional >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional variant >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only applies >if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in both >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the direction of >an archive on the topic, that would help. > >Thank you, > >Karen Broome >Metadata Systems Designer >Sony Pictures Entertainment >310.244.4384 > > > > > > >"Addison Phillips" >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org >06/27/2005 10:22 AM > > > To: > cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > >Dear Editor, > >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. > >Best Regards, > >Addison (for the editors) > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software >http://www.quest.com > >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >http://www.w3.org/International > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 00:41:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnUOb-0004WI-MI; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:41:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnUOY-0004Ux-MJ for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:41:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02345 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnUo2-0006pa-9o for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:08:14 -0400 Received: from h-64-105-136-203.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([64.105.136.203] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-altamira.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnUOW-0004MM-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:41:52 -0400 Message-ID: <004101c57c65$69f2fb40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00a501c57c27$b8492fa0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629001557.04a7ee80@mail.afrac.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Resolving issue #944 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:45:45 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - > From: "r&d afrac" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Resolving issue #944 > > On 23:24 28/06/2005, Randy Presuhn said: > >I plan to close issue #944 on length constraints, marking it resolved. > >If you object, or believe that the recently-submitted -07 > >draft does not reflect WG consensus, please speak NOW. > > Randy, > I certainly think it does not reflect any consensus. I accepted to What, then, do you think the rough consensus on issue #944 was, if not what's in the -07 draft? > represent this lack of consensus. I therefore whish to know what this short > mail means. Is this a WGLC, what is its duration? What is your intended This is not the working group last call. Martin and I hope to be able to issue a working group last call later this week, if working group members are able to reach a rough consensus on the remaining open items and the editors are able to do any necessary edits. Our plan is to do a traditional two-week WG last call on the registry draft and the initial registry simultaneously. > schedule concerning the charter anlaysis? What is your intended schedule to After we have completed our chartered deliverables, including the matching RFC, we can decide whether we would like to ask our ADs to put additional deliverables into our charter or make other charter modifications. > send these Draft to the IESG? Do you prefer to discuss this Draft within We very much want to send the registry draft and initial registry to the IESG as soon as we've successfully wrapped up the working group last calls on both of them. > the WG or during an IETF last call? Obviously discussion in the working group is preferable. > A serious review of a document which has grown to the size of a book calls > for stable version and a few days. Is this version final in the current > author's mind or will there be a -08.txt to take into account the last > changes? It depends on the WG consensus on the remaining issues. > I am also confuse because you say that #1026 is reopened. I must apologise > but I have never been able to understand and I have not the secretariat > facility to translate all these number in meaningful post. But I understand Go to https://rt.psg.com/ (user and password "ietf") to see the issue in the tracker. Issues generally contain a link to the relevant thread on the mailing list. > from this that -07.txt is not final? However I marvel that in an Internet > global doctrinal document Jersey and Gernesey are to so important (I used > to navigate there and I incorporated my first company in Jersey ...) ... Jersey and Guernsey are of interest here due to the anomalous way ISO 3166 handles them. If ISO 3166 handled them the same as others, issue #1027 would be moot. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 07:43:02 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnay6-0007Yf-Je; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:43:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnay4-0007YV-FK for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:43:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA08201 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.246.141.36] (helo=mail.reutershealth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnbNa-0000c7-6e for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:09:24 -0400 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j5TBggKn028181; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:42:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:42:41 -0400 From: "John.Cowan" To: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com Subject: Re: [Ltru] matching submitted again... Message-ID: <20050629114241.GA2568@NYCMJCOWA2> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com scripsit: > A. The standard was intended for written languages primarily, and *since > Chinese is the same in its written form for Cantonese and Mandarin*, no > distinction was made in the code list. There are two possible methods for > making this distinction using ISO 639 codes. > > I don't believe the above is true. It isn't, and it's regrettable that the LOC believes it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese for a reasonable (though not authoritative) summary of the actual situation. Excerpt: Before the 20th century, the standard written language of China was Classical Chinese, which has grammar and vocabulary based on the Chinese used in ancient China, Old Chinese. However, while this written standard remained essentially static for over two thousand years, the actual spoken language diverged further and further away. Some writings based on local vernacular speech did exist but these were rare. In the early 20th century, Chinese reformers like Hu Shi saw the need for language reform and championed the development of a vernacular that allowed modern Chinese to write the language the same way they speak. The vernacular langauge movement took hold, and the written language was standardized as Vernacular Chinese. However, the Chinese spoken varieties used across China are not all the same, and because the Mandarin dialects comprised the largest proportion of the Chinese speaking population, Vernacular Chinese was based mostly on the grammar and vocabulary of Mandarin. The standardization and adoption of Vernacular Chinese as standard written Chinese pre-empted the development and standardization of other vernaculars based on other Chinese varieties. No matter what dialect one spoke, one still wrote in standard written Chinese for everyday writing. However, Cantonese is unique among the non-Mandarin spoken varieties in having a widely used colloquial standard. This is due in part to the fact that Hong Kong, a large Cantonese-speaking city, was outside of Chinese control for over a hundred years before the British handed it over to the People's Republic of China in 1997. Even so, Cantonese speakers will use standard written Chinese in most formal written communications, since written Cantonese contains many dialect-specific characters and grammatical structures that may be unfamiliar or even unreadable to other Chinese speakers. Historically, written Cantonese has been used in Hong Kong for legal proceedings in order to record the exact testimony of a witness, instead of paraphrasing in standard written Chinese. However, its popularity and usage is rising. Written colloquial Cantonese has become quite popular in certain tabloids, online chat rooms, and instant messaging. Some tabloids like Apple Daily write colloquial Cantonese; papers may contain editorials that contain Cantonese; and Cantonese-specific characters can be increasingly seen on advertisements and billboards. Written Cantonese remains limited outside of Hong Kong, even in other Cantonese-speaking areas such as Guangdong, where the use of colloquial writing is discouraged. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country should be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its population. For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 09:04:54 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DncFK-00071T-4t; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:04:54 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DncFC-000713-Qg for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:04:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16096 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dncej-0005cy-ND for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:31:12 -0400 Received: from i01m-124-26.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.167.26] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DncF7-0005bC-37; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:04:41 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629084425.048fb030@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:04:25 +0200 To: Martin Duerst From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 02:08 29/06/2005, Martin Duerst wrote: >Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might >benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation >about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that >could be moved to the appendix, too. Dear Martin, this a very sensible proposition which could spare us a lot of contention and wasted time. It could permit to document many points and leave them open for the future. I will take as an example the sensible question of ISO 11179 which is the further compatibility with the other real world issues. There is an enormous difference between not alluding to it and a comment explaining why (for example that due to the importance and the global nature of the issue, a specific work of the IETF on the matter is necessary, and that it has been noted that ISO 639-6 will comply with ISO 11179). The list of these comments could result from the analysis of the Charter. By this WG or in response to mine (if there is a warrantied result and the possibility to possitively get out of this dead-end I am ready to work on it). Every serious point of disagreement could result into a short summary of the responses given on the list. It would clearly describe the options of the document. In such a case I would even drop my opposition to BCP 47 since this appendix would clearly define the scope and the doctrine of the document, the only thing we want. best regards jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 11:29:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DneUy-0008Jb-N4; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:29:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DneUw-0008Ia-J6 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:29:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02145 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.129]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DneuR-0002Hz-KZ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:55:36 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFShiN278268 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:28:44 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5TFSgcC192752 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:28:43 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5TFSgAk025628 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:28:42 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-124-124.mts.ibm.com [9.48.124.124]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5TFSf0p025530; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:28:42 -0600 Message-ID: <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Martin Duerst" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:28:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e31.co.us.ibm.com id j5TFShiN278268 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7fa173a723009a6ca8ce575a65a5d813 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org With any document, it is always possible to have incremental improvements. But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May, so if w= e are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap things = up, instead of having continual tweaks. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Martin Duerst" To: "Addison Phillips" Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > Addison, others, > > This question is probably the most frequent question that comes > up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for this > decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? > > There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. > RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. > > Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might > benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation > about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that > could be moved to the appendix, too. > > Regards, Martin. > > At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical question: > >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the region= al > >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional variant > >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only applies > >if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in b= oth > >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the direction= of > >an archive on the topic, that would help. > > > >Thank you, > > > >Karen Broome > >Metadata Systems Designer > >Sony Pictures Entertainment > >310.244.4384 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Addison Phillips" > >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > >06/27/2005 10:22 AM > > > > > > To: > > cc: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-0= 7 > > > > > >Dear Editor, > > > >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. > > > >Best Regards, > > > >Addison (for the editors) > > > >Addison P. Phillips > >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >http://www.quest.com > > > >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > >http://www.w3.org/International > > > >Internationalization is not a feature. > >It is an architecture. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Ltru mailing list > >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 11:32:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DneYB-0000o1-HV; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:32:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DneYA-0000nw-8A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:32:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02787 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dnexi-0002Q2-Cr for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:58:56 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:32:18 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:32:18 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:32:17 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV8q1DJP6YM19EgS4OzvyDqNlcLqQAE82hQ From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2005 15:32:18.0036 (UTC) FILETIME=[BBBEAB40:01C57CBF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of r&d > afrac > this a very sensible proposition which could spare us a lot of contention > and wasted time. It could permit to document many points and leave them > open for the future. I will take as an example the sensible question of ISO > 11179 which is the further compatibility with the other real world issues. > There is an enormous difference between not alluding to it and a comment > explaining why (for example that due to the importance and the global > nature of the issue, a specific work of the IETF on the matter is > necessary, and that it has been noted that ISO 639-6 will comply with ISO > 11179). While ISO 11179 is an important standard, it's not clear to me what benefit would be gained from adding references to it in an Appendix. If someone wants to propose specific text for addition to the draft, that can be evaluated. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 11:33:49 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DneZR-0001UB-3T; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:33:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DneZP-0001Rr-Sj for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:33:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02951 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dneyy-0002Sp-Sy for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:00:14 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:33:36 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:33:36 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:33:35 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV8v2ONnxVIB7euSnaeivaz8e4APgAAHGnw From: "Peter Constable" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2005 15:33:36.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA60B010:01C57CBF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hear! Hear! Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] = On Behalf Of > Mark Davis > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 8:29 AM > To: Addison Phillips; Martin Duerst > Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >=20 > With any document, it is always possible to have incremental = improvements. > But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May, so = if we > are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap = things up, > instead of having continual tweaks. >=20 > =FDMark >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Duerst" > To: "Addison Phillips" > Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >=20 >=20 > > Addison, others, > > > > This question is probably the most frequent question that comes > > up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for this > > decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? > > > > There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. > > RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. > > > > Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might > > benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation > > about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that > > could be moved to the appendix, too. > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > > >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical > question: > > >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the = regional > > >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional = variant > > >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only > applies > > >if the content is written while the regional variant would apply = in both > > >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the = direction of > > >an archive on the topic, that would help. > > > > > >Thank you, > > > > > >Karen Broome > > >Metadata Systems Designer > > >Sony Pictures Entertainment > > >310.244.4384 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Addison Phillips" > > >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > >06/27/2005 10:22 AM > > > > > > > > > To: > > > cc: LTRU Working Group > > > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: = draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > > > > > > >Dear Editor, > > > > > >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. > > > > > >Best Regards, > > > > > >Addison (for the editors) > > > > > >Addison P. Phillips > > >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > >http://www.quest.com > > > > > >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > >http://www.w3.org/International > > > > > >Internationalization is not a feature. > > >It is an architecture. > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Ltru mailing list > > >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Ltru mailing list > > >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 11:35:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnean-00025r-P2; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dneam-00025b-Jk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03047 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dnf0L-0002Uw-Nj for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:01:39 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:36:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:36:35 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF74676@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV8v3zjxZClbZj6RGOzia6W4ODKEwAAB0lg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "Mark Davis" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2005 15:36:35.0695 (UTC) FILETIME=[55524FF0:01C57CC0] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1113590281==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1113590281== content-class: 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1Dnfjf-0000EK-H1 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:48:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09913 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dng9F-00052i-8D for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:14:54 -0400 Received: from i01m-124-26.d4.club-internet.fr ([62.35.167.26] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DnfjS-0008Mx-0e; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:48:14 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050629174141.04370eb0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:47:56 +0200 To: "Mark Davis" From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 In-Reply-To: <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org On 17:28 29/06/2005, Mark Davis said: >With any document, it is always possible to have incremental improvements. >But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May, so if we >are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap things up, >instead of having continual tweaks. Mark, let be realistic. What Martin proposes has my agreement and I am quite sure the agreement of those I team with (I sent a mail, we have the EGENI meeting tomorrow and the Luxembourg meetings the week after - so we can concert f2f [I will have to make some convincing, but I feel confident]). So the options are: - either we work seriously on this and you have a final text (which will not be changed, only commented) within one month, which will seamlessly go through the LCs (unless there is real disagreement over the description of the motives of this WG, but I suppose that you guys know why you want what you want?) This will be obtained at least effort for all (we _really_ have other things than to protect our work and users from you). If the wording is clear I have no objection that Peter uses it for ISO. - or we do not. I suppose that we will list at least 70 points to be discussed for the WGLC. The same at the IESG LC. This will most probably give us the time to work and develop, test and document (running code and on-line applications, plus report of Varsaw) why your approach is out of scope for the Internet and cannot scale (I say Internet, not W3C). My guesstimate is that we have no problem showing there is no consensus in the coming two LCs, building a consensus against your Draft within the next three to six months and for our common work within one year. At IETF or WSIS. The IDN WG has lasted three years. It was just on domain names. IMHO the work is simple. It simply consists for us in reviewing the document to list not what we oppose, but where we need a clarification of the reasons why. The text should most probably result from the past exchanges of the list. These are its "whereas". Don't you think we have other things to do in life than to fight one another? I am not paid for all this, I am ethically/technically right, I am supported by many and if grow too old there are several better than me to replace me ... No one owns the IETF. your choice. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 13:49:20 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dngga-0007CG-Az; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:49:20 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnggZ-0007C6-14 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:49:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17299 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dnh69-0000Ht-Ai for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:15:46 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:49:07 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:49:07 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:49:06 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV8yoVvq7GPQTRmQqyl6tCL5AsxkwAB+4Zg From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jun 2005 17:49:07.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9002950:01C57CD2] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of r&d > afrac > IMHO the work is simple. It simply consists for us in reviewing the > document... If you want the work to be simple, then propose specific revisions to the draft, including proposed text. Asking for a discussion about anything other than specific revisions will not be simple and will not move us toward quick completion. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 15:50:43 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnia3-0002H5-FJ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DniZU-0001wM-5c; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03658; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dniz3-0006fU-G2; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:16:33 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DniZO-0000gu-KD; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt Pages : 60 Date : 2005-6-29 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user defined extensions for private interchange. This document obsoletes RFC 3066 (which replaced RFC 1766). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-29145152.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-29145152.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 15:50:50 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DniaA-0002KL-JM; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DniZV-0001wr-2Z; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03660; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dniz3-0006fS-Dq; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:16:33 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DniZO-0000gp-JK; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Matching Tags for the Identification of Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2005-6-29 This document describes different mechanisms for comparing, matching, and evaluating language tags. Possible algorithms for language negotiation and content selection are described. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-29145132.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-matching-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-6-29145132.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 19:29:34 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnlzp-0006TZ-U5; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:29:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnlzo-0006TU-Gk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:29:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10290 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnmPS-0003rT-AF for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:56:02 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-178.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.178] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-satin.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Dnlzf-0003fS-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:29:23 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c57d02$edb81d00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <200506271728.j5RHSOK4010945@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <22563.1119937030@munnari.OZ.AU> <5F1B6D95C0DBE599ACBA1A9F@scan.jck.com> <1452A05293A1AAB40A2E4A62@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6.2.1.2.2.20050628153555.03eb3eb0@mail.jefsey.com> <011a01c57c1f$5224c8e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629004548.04950a60@mail.jefsey.com> <002501c57c61$44d7ea40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <11492D65F8A99335DD784FE9@scan.jck.com> <5C4950A6DB066AA7B203C206@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629185506.04708d60@mail.jefsey.com> <007501c57ce3$869bb920$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629224205.048050e0@mail.jefsey.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:33:17 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: Status in LTRU X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi - This spilled over from the IETF list, and really belongs in the ltru list. > From: "JFC (Jefsey) Morfin" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: Status in LTRU > > On 21:48 29/06/2005, Randy Presuhn said: > >The ltru WG considered the proposal to employ ISO 11179. > >No one else supported the proposal to employ ISO 11179. > > You kidding? Debbie stated that ISO 639-6 does. :-) Wrong. She said: "FYI the proposed 639-6 draft is currently being harmonized with ISO 11179; parts 1 (framework) and 6 (registration)". > >Several opposed the proposal to employ ISO 11179. > > I will run a gallup to know how many have seen an ISO 11179 print out :-) > > >The proposal to employ ISO 11179 was rejected. > >Get over it. > > :-) :-) :-) Oh! yes we get over it! full time. > > >If you have concerns with the ltru work, please take them to the > >ltru@ietf.org mailing list. ietf@ietf.org really isn't the place for > >discussing the details of the language tag registry. > > Full agreement. Tell that to the WG-ltru Member Harald Alvestrand. Started > insulting Europe, then everyone ? You forget that you started the discussion of ltru on the IETF list. > This fun apart, my response to Martin's proposal is serious. I will not I fail to see the fun in dealing with your whining. > have much support in my team and contacts, but I think it is a good way to > get us all out of this mud, or this fun will continue for a few years. I suppose you're proud of how much these delays cost the industry? Or does delay somehow suit you? > If you confirm this, copy to ADs, I am ready to work on a review of the What is "this"? It sounds like you're trying to work some kind of backroom deal to delay delivery of our documents to the IESG. This would not be appropriate. > Draft before July 18th (I go in vacations - I am with the ICANN meeting in > Luxembourg from 9 to 13). It will result in a formal list of questions We're rather late in the process for questions. If you see a problem, please identify it and propose a solution. Otherwise I doubt your list would be taken seriously. > which will be copied to the AD/IESG with our agreement and published on Who does "our" refer to? Participation in the IETF is by individuals, and you're not on the liaison list at http://www.ietf.org/liaisonActivities.html > http://rfc3066.org. I expect they should result in a FAQ in appendix, > providing short explanations from the mailing list. You will answer the > questions you want (as the list will be public I do not mind). What goes into the document is subject to WG consensus. If your comments come during IETF last call, the IESG will probably also get involved. > This is provided to help. The general comment I have around me is "we do > not understand anything in what they intend to say". I will be candid, > these questions are risen after ISO 639 committee members have briefed us > on the importance they attribute as authors to ISO 11179. The resulting > questions match in part the questions we had before. But as a network > person I am not satisfied with ISO 11179. The work I carry over CRCs and > their implications lead me to think, as stated, that this is an LDAP/X.500 > like situation. I find this paragraph incomprehensible. > Now, the real issue for your WG is that we will have the Last Call in > September/October, i.e. after Varsaw. In Varsaw there will be the > acceptance of ISO 639-3 what will help, and hopefully clarification on ISO > 639-4 and directions on ISO 639-6. I cannot presume, but this should lead > to ISO langtags this or next year which will be different from yours.... > And probably with element definitions different from yours and most > probably other niceties about what is missing in the Draft. Our charter says we are already behind schedule for WG last call. As I've said before, we hope to start WG last call this week. > I am not much interested in drafts, I am interested in running and accepted > code. I suspect that we will produce a running server this falls supporting > the iso langtags. I documented how: in using x-tags - undefined size and > supporting URLs. From this we will see. But may be will you have to produce > the 3066 ter soon enough. > > jfc Randy, ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jun 29 22:18:48 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnodc-0003SF-CR; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:18:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnodb-0003RP-0A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:18:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA26729 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dnp3F-00055X-V7 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:45:19 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DnodU-0005Yr-Cj; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:18:40 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050630031244.040eecc0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:32:25 +0200 To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: r&d afrac In-Reply-To: <001001c57d02$edb81d00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> References: <200506271728.j5RHSOK4010945@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <22563.1119937030@munnari.OZ.AU> <5F1B6D95C0DBE599ACBA1A9F@scan.jck.com> <1452A05293A1AAB40A2E4A62@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6.2.1.2.2.20050628153555.03eb3eb0@mail.jefsey.com> <011a01c57c1f$5224c8e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629004548.04950a60@mail.jefsey.com> <002501c57c61$44d7ea40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <11492D65F8A99335DD784FE9@scan.jck.com> <5C4950A6DB066AA7B203C206@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629185506.04708d60@mail.jefsey.com> <007501c57ce3$869bb920$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629224205.048050e0@mail.jefsey.com> <001001c57d02$edb81d00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Subject: [Ltru] it was a private mail ... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org As some may have noted it, this was a private mail commenting another list thread. Two netiquette violations. Two good reasons to ban me from the list before the WGLC? Or a way to torpedoe my proposition .... At 01:33 30/06/2005, Randy Presuhn wrote: >I suppose you're proud of how much these delays cost the industry? Or does >delay somehow suit you? ... I consider as fair and of common interest in regards to these two questions (I have documented many many times with great details). Nice troll, Randy, but I will not kill the chances of this WG. It is up to Martin, Mark and Peter to do it, if they so wishes. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 01:28:41 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnrbN-0000xD-51; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:28:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnrbL-0000ww-9A for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:28:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA12175 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([207.69.195.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Dns11-00017t-Fj for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:55:12 -0400 Received: from h-68-165-4-111.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.111] helo=oemcomputer) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DnrbI-00065F-00 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:28:36 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c57d35$1ba58c20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <200506271728.j5RHSOK4010945@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <22563.1119937030@munnari.OZ.AU> <5F1B6D95C0DBE599ACBA1A9F@scan.jck.com> <1452A05293A1AAB40A2E4A62@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6.2.1.2.2.20050628153555.03eb3eb0@mail.jefsey.com> <011a01c57c1f$5224c8e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629004548.04950a60@mail.jefsey.com> <002501c57c61$44d7ea40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <11492D65F8A99335DD784FE9@scan.jck.com> <5C4950A6DB066AA7B203C206@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629185506.04708d60@mail.jefsey.com> <007501c57ce3$869bb920$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629224205.048050e0@mail.jefsey.com> <001001c57d02$edb81d00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050630031244.040eecc0@mail.afrac.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:32:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] Re: it was a private mail ... X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi Jefsey - > From: "r&d afrac" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 6:32 PM > Subject: it was a private mail ... > > As some may have noted it, this was a private mail commenting another list > thread. Two netiquette violations. Two good reasons to ban me from the list > before the WGLC? Or a way to torpedoe my proposition .... ... I apologize for offending your refined sense of netiquette. By now no one should be surprised to learn that I prefer to err on the side of openness. Proposals to change the WG schedule or do anything out of the ordinary in the last call process clearly must be discussed in the open. The need to keep the process fair and open is more important to me than the finer points of netiquette. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 04:30:46 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnuRZ-00041K-MU; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:30:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnuRX-000419-7i for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:30:43 -0400 Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA16252 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEWELL ([68.66.2.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with SMTP id <20050630083011.GERJ29002.mta9.adelphia.net@DEWELL> for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:30:11 -0400 Message-ID: <004901c57d4d$e74771a0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:29:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ltru] This time for sure: draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01 X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Randy wrote: > Our plan is to do a traditional two-week WG last call on the registry > draft and the initial registry simultaneously. Well, then, I'd better get cracking. A new version of draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01 is now available: http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01.txt http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01.html http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/draft-ietf-ltru-initial-01.xml I've substantially reworked the text in Section 2, "Initialization of the Registry," so that it refers to what has been done, rather than what MUST be done. All RFC 2119 capitalized keywords should be gone now. References to "the editor" have been expunged, and references to "this document" should now refer only to the initial-registry document itself (except as noted below). Most or all of the changes Frank suggested on Monday morning have been made, though some required more work than just changing "MUST be" to "were." Although I dislike acronym proliferation, I found it worthwhile to introduce a new acronym in Section 2, "ILSR" for "Initial Language Subtag Registry," to avoid confusion in some of the passages where it was being contrasted with the living, evolving registry of the future, or with the old RFC 3066 tag registry. I tried to use this new term (and others) with as much boring consistency as possible, to prevent misinterpretation. There are passages toward the end of Section 2 that I have placed in [ [ double square brackets. ] ] This is text that I don't believe belongs in the initial-registry draft at all; rather, it should either be tossed back over the fence into draft-registry or be deleted altogether. For example: "Users of tags that are grandfathered SHOULD consider registering appropriate subtags in the IANA subtag registry (but are NOT REQUIRED to)." I think material like this is out of scope for draft-initial. I'd like readers to think about what to do with this text. One passage does include the phrase "this document" referring to draft-registry; I didn't change it because draft-registry might be the best place for that passage after all. I replaced "code(s)" in most instances with "code element(s)," because that is what ISO standards seem to call them. If anyone finds this really pedantic and hard to swallow, it can be undone. I added numbers to the rules, but I cheated and insert the numbers manually instead of letting xml2rfc generate them, because it's really three lists and I couldn't find a mechanism to start the numbering for a new list anywhere other than 1. There is a new Section 4, "Omitted Code Elements," which contains the much talked-about list of current UN M.49 code elements that aren't in the registry. This currently includes the items in the UN list titled "Codes not in current use," including 200 for Czechoslovakia, as well as 830 through 833. I've put [ [ brackets ] ] around most of these items because I'm not sure they meet the criteria for being listed. This was a big part of Frank's most recent comment (which I confess I haven't read thoroughly yet), and so I'd especially like readers to weigh in on that. As for the registry itself, it now contains a few (really mindless) comments for grandfathered tags, because the text in Section 2 pretty much requires it. I personally don't see a need for a comment in a record like this: Type: grandfathered Tag: art-lojban Description: Lojban Added: 2001-11-11 Preferred-Value: jbo Deprecated: 2003-09-02 Comment: duh, use jbo instead because after all, that's what "Deprecated" and "Preferred-Value" are for! But I can see that in some cases, it might be useful. For example, we might be holding off on registering variant 'gaulish' for use with 'cel' because ISO 639-3 will one day bring us 'xcg' and 'xtg', or 'boont' because we think Boontling is too far from English to be considered a "variant" of it. In those cases, it might be useful to have a comment. Anyone in the WG should feel free to propose appropriate Comment text. I don't think it should be required for every grandfathered entry to have a Comment field (Addison had downgraded it to SHOULD) and I furthered softened the requirement: "The 'Comments' field may optionally contain a reason for the deprecation." And last but not least, this version of the registry does remove region subtag 062 and replaces it with 034 and 143, so we can stop hearing me whine about THAT. As usual, all constructive comments are welcome, the more focused the better. Frank, I promise to read the rest of your comments and address other concerns. I think the group at large will have to work out whether 830 through 833 should be registrable or not; it's a policy question, not just a matter of how the document is worded. -- Doug Ewell Fullerton, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 04:37:57 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnuYX-0005hg-EN; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:37:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnuYV-0005hb-Id for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:37:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA16678 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnuyD-00039g-Si for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:04:30 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j5U8bLC29805; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:37:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id c129e5ea_e943_11d9_9fee_0030482532aa_16610; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:48:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO006507; 30 Jun 05 17:42:20 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 30 Jun 05 17:42:09 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.227.2) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG006506; 30 Jun 05 17:41:58 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050630171138.08f7f790@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:13:37 +0900 To: "Mark Davis" , "Addison Phillips" From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 In-Reply-To: <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanation of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some other discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was just proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. Regards, Martin. At 00:28 05/06/30, Mark Davis wrote: >With any document, it is always possible to have incremental improvements. >But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May, so if we >are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap things up, >instead of having continual tweaks. > >$Bc`;.(Bark > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Martin Duerst" >To: "Addison Phillips" >Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" >Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > >> Addison, others, >> >> This question is probably the most frequent question that comes >> up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for this >> decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? >> >> There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. >> RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. >> >> Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might >> benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation >> about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that >> could be moved to the appendix, too. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: >> >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical >question: >> >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the regional >> >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional variant >> >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only >applies >> >if the content is written while the regional variant would apply in both >> >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the direction of >> >an archive on the topic, that would help. >> > >> >Thank you, >> > >> >Karen Broome >> >Metadata Systems Designer >> >Sony Pictures Entertainment >> >310.244.4384 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >"Addison Phillips" >> >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org >> >06/27/2005 10:22 AM >> > >> > >> > To: >> > cc: LTRU Working Group >> > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >> > >> > >> >Dear Editor, >> > >> >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. >> > >> >Best Regards, >> > >> >Addison (for the editors) >> > >> >Addison P. Phillips >> >Globalization Architect, Quest Software >> >http://www.quest.com >> > >> >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >> >http://www.w3.org/International >> > >> >Internationalization is not a feature. >> >It is an architecture. >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Ltru mailing list >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Ltru mailing list >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@lists.ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> >> _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 08:07:30 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnxpK-0002xz-T8; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:07:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnxpK-0002xl-46 for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:07:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA03948 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnyF4-00044m-4o for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:34:07 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DnxpC-0005Mz-1A; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:07:23 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050630112519.041f4de0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:33:47 +0200 To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Re: it was a private mail ... In-Reply-To: <000601c57d35$1ba58c20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> References: <200506271728.j5RHSOK4010945@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <22563.1119937030@munnari.OZ.AU> <5F1B6D95C0DBE599ACBA1A9F@scan.jck.com> <1452A05293A1AAB40A2E4A62@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6.2.1.2.2.20050628153555.03eb3eb0@mail.jefsey.com> <011a01c57c1f$5224c8e0$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629004548.04950a60@mail.jefsey.com> <002501c57c61$44d7ea40$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <11492D65F8A99335DD784FE9@scan.jck.com> <5C4950A6DB066AA7B203C206@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629185506.04708d60@mail.jefsey.com> <007501c57ce3$869bb920$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050629224205.048050e0@mail.jefsey.com> <001001c57d02$edb81d00$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> <6.2.1.2.2.20050630031244.040eecc0@mail.afrac.org> <000601c57d35$1ba58c20$7f1afea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 07:32 30/06/2005, Randy Presuhn wrote: >I apologize for offending your refined sense of netiquette. Thank you. But netiquette is netiquette. We both know what you tried. >By now no one should be surprised to learn that >I prefer to err on the side of openness. err is a correct word. >Proposals >to change the WG schedule or do anything out of the >ordinary in the last call process clearly must be discussed >in the open. The need to keep the process fair and open >is more important to me than the finer points of netiquette. This exchange had nothing to do with the WG, it resulted from your discussion on an external list of a quote on from another list refering inappropriately to this WG. There is no proposed change of the WG schedule, to the contrary. I take this remark as a way to help derail the possibility of a consensual quick close-up of the RFC 3066 bis draft as proposed by your co-chair. I do not understand it. jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 08:07:31 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnxpL-0002yM-0i; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:07:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DnxpJ-0002xk-Ne for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:07:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA03945 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DnyF4-00044q-4k for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:34:06 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DnxpD-0005Mz-S4; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:07:24 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050630113403.041ffeb0@mail.afrac.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:00:30 +0200 To: Martin Duerst From: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20050630171138.08f7f790@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20050630171138.08f7f790@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1254639756==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============1254639756== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_33090381==.ALT" --=====================_33090381==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Martin, as a co-Chair of the IETF WG-ltru working group, you wrote on 30/06.2005: >Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanation >of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some other >discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was just >proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the >whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. >But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. This is exactly the way I understand it and I propose to proceed. I do not leave it however to the editors: this is a step too far away. But this is not the most arguably point in the whole proposal and I think the Chairs and the Authors should agree to consider this solution to clarify all these points. I therefore repeat my proposition: if Chairs and authors formally agree, I will present within the delay of the WGLC a public list of the points needing an explanation of the authors' rationale. Authors will then do what they want with the list which will be published and advertised. IESG, public and users will then be able to decide of their own adherence to the resulting text. This would permit to clarify the extremely confused and non documented application scope and context of the proposition. In such a case, there would be no objection anymore on my side and of the team, organisations and contact I accepted to speak for, to a Draft which is currently heavily opposed by concerned user spheres, for its political and commercial practical surroundings. Having been active in identifying its layer-8 (*) connotation and its layer-9 (*) issues, I am certainly aware of the consequence of publishing the current text without that explanations. This is why I cannot see any future to this Draft other than a very poor impact on the IESG/IETF image, should it be accepted, and a resulting technical confusion highly detrimental to the stability of the Internet and costly to all the industries. We are here in a situation comparable to the IDNA situation which currently results into a secondary DNS root by the largest country of the planet and in an industrial controversy (http://jprs.co.jp/en/topics/050405.html) due to the positions of corporations and persons directly involved in the sponsoring of this Draft. We can reasonably estimate that this comparison would be to the power due to the impact on industries, policies, cultures, of a too restrictive tagging via a IANA registry of the most valuable and cherished common good of the mankind. The current IETF debate shows the increasing and firm opposition to such attempts to control the world through the restrictive control of a IANA registry. We also know that should it be accepted by the IESG and actually enforced by the IANA, the impact of the created scarcity and dominated languages namespace would be pervasive and irreversible while it is still currently unthinkable to most. This means that the identification process will be slow but deep. The political consequences will be grave, in a world where cultural and national sovereignties issues are exacerbated by a global uniformisation this Draft proceeds from. It will probably be soon unanimously identified (this is already the case in informed spheres) as its core because it confuses ASCII Internationalisation and Multilingualisation. Being commercially driven will be an important opposition factor: the resulting IANA process starts being referred to as the "linguistic Yalta". This is why it is likely that this proposition will never take-off and will be quickly replaced by the propositions currently discussed by the ISO 639 series and harmonized with the other multimodal and general aspects along the guidelines of ISO 11179 this WG refuses to consider. This ISO compatible proposition is already under implementation by efforts comparable to the one I direct on the granular distribution of the IANA extensions. However, the confusion created by the use of prestigious sponsors and the innovation blockade the proposition represents will most probably last for a long time and have consequences on the image of the involved technologies. This is all the more difficult to understand that this is directly opposed to the desire of harmonisation of the IESG Charter of this Working Group. I note that this Draft also opposes on several points the linguistic equal opportunity declaration currently circulated among international organisations and civil society spheres. I know this will genuinely not be understood by some of the participants to the WG-ltru IETF Working Group and may be some of the Members of the IESG who will want to discuss it. I therefore want to clarify: this is not a point for discussion, this is a simple description of the reality this WG wants to rule. Debating of its forecast and solution is desirable. Disputing its diagnosis would only denote a disqualifying ignorance as a standardiser. I just outline a problem to be solved. I propose a solution. It is now to the Chairs and authors to decide. JFC Morfin (*) Layer-8 and Layer-9 are traditional IETF ways to identify commercial and political aspects. I suggest the use of Layer-10 for the cultural aspects. This refers to the OSI 7 layer model. They should not be confused with the Extended Network Systems model developped by Tymnet in the mid-80s and used by Intlnet and AFRAC which use Layers 8 to 12 to qualify the Interapplicative, Agent, Actor, Organisation and Societal layers. --=====================_33090381==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Martin,
          as a co-Chair of the IETF WG-ltru working group, you wrote on 30/06.2005:

          Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanation
          of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some other
          discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was just
          proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the
          whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag.
          But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing.

          This is exactly the way I understand it and I propose to proceed. I do not leave it however to the editors: this is a step too far away. But this is not the most arguably point in the whole proposal and I think the Chairs and the Authors should agree to consider this solution to clarify all these points.

          I therefore repeat my proposition: if Chairs and authors formally agree, I will present within the delay of the WGLC a public list of the points needing an explanation of the authors' rationale. Authors will then do what they want with the list which will be published and advertised. IESG, public and users will then be able to decide of their own adherence to the resulting text.

          This would permit to clarify the extremely confused and non documented application scope and context of the proposition. In such a case, there would be no objection anymore on my side and of the team, organisations and contact I accepted to speak for, to a Draft which is currently heavily opposed by concerned user spheres, for its political and commercial practical surroundings. Having been active in identifying its layer-8 (*) connotation and its layer-9 (*) issues, I am certainly aware of the consequence of publishing the current text without that explanations. This is why I cannot see any future to this Draft other than a very poor impact on the IESG/IETF image, should it be accepted, and a resulting technical confusion highly detrimental to the stability of the Internet and costly to all the industries.

          We are here in a situation comparable to the IDNA situation which currently results into a secondary DNS root by the largest country of the planet and in an industrial controversy ( http://jprs.co.jp/en/topics/050405.html) due to the positions of corporations and persons directly involved in the sponsoring of this Draft.  We can reasonably estimate that this comparison would be to the power due to the impact on industries, policies, cultures, of a too restrictive tagging via a IANA registry of the most valuable and cherished common good of the mankind. The current IETF debate shows the increasing and firm opposition to such attempts to control the world through the restrictive control of a IANA registry.

          We also know that should it be accepted by the IESG and actually enforced by the IANA, the impact of the created scarcity and dominated languages namespace would be pervasive and irreversible while it is still currently unthinkable to most. This means that the identification process will be slow but deep. The political consequences will be grave, in a world where cultural and national sovereignties issues are exacerbated by a global uniformisation this Draft proceeds from. It will probably be soon unanimously identified (this is already the case in informed spheres) as its core because it confuses ASCII Internationalisation and Multilingualisation. Being commercially driven will be an important opposition factor: the resulting IANA process starts being referred to as the "linguistic Yalta".

          This is why it is likely that this proposition will never take-off and will be quickly replaced by the propositions currently discussed by the ISO 639 series and harmonized with the other multimodal and general aspects along the guidelines of ISO 11179 this WG refuses to consider. This ISO compatible proposition is already under implementation by efforts comparable to the one I direct on the granular distribution of the IANA extensions. However, the confusion created by the use of prestigious sponsors and the innovation blockade the proposition represents will most probably last for a long time and have consequences on the image of the involved technologies. This is all the more difficult to understand that this is directly opposed to the desire of harmonisation of the IESG Charter of this Working Group.

          I note that this Draft also opposes on several points the linguistic equal opportunity declaration currently circulated among international organisations and civil society spheres.

          I know this will genuinely not be understood by some of the participants to the WG-ltru IETF Working Group and may be some of the Members of the IESG who will want to discuss it. I therefore want to clarify: this is not a point for discussion, this is a simple description of the reality this WG wants to rule. Debating of its forecast and solution is desirable. Disputing its diagnosis would only denote a disqualifying ignorance as a standardiser.

          I just outline a problem to be solved. I propose a solution.
          It is now to the Chairs and authors to decide.

          JFC Morfin

          (*) Layer-8 and Layer-9 are traditional IETF ways to identify commercial and political aspects. I suggest the use of Layer-10 for the cultural aspects. This refers to the OSI 7 layer model. They should not be confused with the Extended Network Systems model developped by Tymnet in the mid-80s and used by Intlnet and AFRAC which use Layers 8 to 12 to qualify the Interapplicative, Agent, Actor, Organisation and Societal layers.






          --=====================_33090381==.ALT-- --===============1254639756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1254639756==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 10:26:40 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do000-00073r-P1; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:26:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dnzzx-00073d-0D for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:26:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA18010 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do0Pg-00080G-K1 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:53:15 -0400 Received: from d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.106]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEQOvN635980 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:26:24 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by d03relay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5UEQOcC084598 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:24 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5UEQIvM021535 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:18 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-125-237.mts.ibm.com [9.48.125.237]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5UEQHSZ021456; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:18 -0600 Message-ID: <045801c57d7f$acc298c0$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "Martin Duerst" References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20050630171138.08f7f790@localhost> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:26:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e33.co.us.ibm.com id j5UEQOvN635980 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org I realize that your intentions were good, but we are way behind schedule. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Martin Duerst" To: "Mark Davis" ; "Addison Phillips" Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 01:13 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanation > of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some other > discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was just > proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the > whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. > But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. > > Regards, Martin. > > At 00:28 05/06/30, Mark Davis wrote: > >With any document, it is always possible to have incremental improvements. > >But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May, so = if we > >are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap thi= ngs up, > >instead of having continual tweaks. > > > >=E7=AA=B6=E7=9A=BFark > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Martin Duerst" > >To: "Addison Phillips" > >Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" > >Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 > >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > > > >> Addison, others, > >> > >> This question is probably the most frequent question that comes > >> up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for this > >> decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? > >> > >> There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. > >> RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. > >> > >> Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might > >> benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation > >> about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that > >> could be moved to the appendix, too. > >> > >> Regards, Martin. > >> > >> At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > >> >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical > >question: > >> >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the regional > >> >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional vari= ant > >> >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only > >applies > >> >if the content is written while the regional variant would apply = in both > >> >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the direction of > >> >an archive on the topic, that would help. > >> > > >> >Thank you, > >> > > >> >Karen Broome > >> >Metadata Systems Designer > >> >Sony Pictures Entertainment > >> >310.244.4384 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >"Addison Phillips" > >> >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > >> >06/27/2005 10:22 AM > >> > > >> > > >> > To: > >> > cc: LTRU Working Group > >> > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > >> > > >> > > >> >Dear Editor, > >> > > >> >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. > >> > > >> >Best Regards, > >> > > >> >Addison (for the editors) > >> > > >> >Addison P. Phillips > >> >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > >> >http://www.quest.com > >> > > >> >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > >> >http://www.w3.org/International > >> > > >> >Internationalization is not a feature. > >> >It is an architecture. > >> > > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Ltru mailing list > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Ltru mailing list > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ltru mailing list > >> Ltru@lists.ietf.org > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 10:40:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do0D0-0003Bs-0D; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:40:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do0Cy-0003BZ-1s for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:40:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19170 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suomi.kotus.fi ([193.166.18.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do0ci-00077K-1o for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:06:42 -0400 Received: from kotus.fi (pc163.kotus.fi [193.166.18.163]) by suomi.kotus.fi (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEdpZm011939; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:39:51 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42C40431.4070302@kotus.fi> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:39:45 +0300 From: Erkki Kolehmainen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: fi, en-us, sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: r&d afrac Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20050629090236.06d7fd60@localhost> <02b201c57cbf$39d67180$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20050630171138.08f7f790@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050630113403.041ffeb0@mail.afrac.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93e7fb8fef2e780414389440f367c879 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dear All, I'd like to note that the language tagging mechanism being produced here could be characterized as an urgently needed, pragmatic, best-effort, yet arguably state-of-art solution to the practical problems at hand. In doing this, it is recognized that there are and will be everlasting disputes on what are proper languages and proper scripts, and what kind of granularity can or should reasonably be applied to the definition of regional variants of any given language - in essence, what is the minimum or optimal granularity of the tagging mechanism (for each application). These shortcomings don't, however, invalidate the result nor make it a short-lived, interim-only solution. I'm under the impression - although I may be wrong - that making a statement somehow along the above lines could make the draft more palatable to Mr. Morfin and others who seem to be targeting for something beyond what the majority considers viable at this stage. Sincerely, Erkki I. Kolehmainen r&d afrac wrote: > Dear Martin, > as a co-Chair of the IETF WG-ltru working group, you wrote on 30/06.2005: > >> Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanation >> of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some other >> discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was just >> proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the >> whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. >> But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. > > > This is exactly the way I understand it and I propose to proceed. I do > not leave it however to the editors: this is a step too far away. But > this is not the most arguably point in the whole proposal and I think > the Chairs and the Authors should agree to consider this solution to > clarify all these points. > > I therefore repeat my proposition: if Chairs and authors formally agree, > I will present within the delay of the WGLC a public list of the points > needing an explanation of the authors' rationale. Authors will then do > what they want with the list which will be published and advertised. > IESG, public and users will then be able to decide of their own > adherence to the resulting text. > > This would permit to clarify the extremely confused and non documented > application scope and context of the proposition. In such a case, there > would be no objection anymore on my side and of the team, organisations > and contact I accepted to speak for, to a Draft which is currently > heavily opposed by concerned user spheres, for its political and > commercial practical surroundings. Having been active in identifying its > layer-8 (*) connotation and its layer-9 (*) issues, I am certainly aware > of the consequence of publishing the current text without that > explanations. This is why I cannot see any future to this Draft other > than a very poor impact on the IESG/IETF image, should it be accepted, > and a resulting technical confusion highly detrimental to the stability > of the Internet and costly to all the industries. > > We are here in a situation comparable to the IDNA situation which > currently results into a secondary DNS root by the largest country of > the planet and in an industrial controversy ( > http://jprs.co.jp/en/topics/050405.html) due to the positions of > corporations and persons directly involved in the sponsoring of this > Draft. We can reasonably estimate that this comparison would be to the > power due to the impact on industries, policies, cultures, of a too > restrictive tagging via a IANA registry of the most valuable and > cherished common good of the mankind. The current IETF debate shows the > increasing and firm opposition to such attempts to control the world > through the restrictive control of a IANA registry. > > We also know that should it be accepted by the IESG and actually > enforced by the IANA, the impact of the created scarcity and dominated > languages namespace would be pervasive and irreversible while it is > still currently unthinkable to most. This means that the identification > process will be slow but deep. The political consequences will be grave, > in a world where cultural and national sovereignties issues are > exacerbated by a global uniformisation this Draft proceeds from. It will > probably be soon unanimously identified (this is already the case in > informed spheres) as its core because it confuses ASCII > Internationalisation and Multilingualisation. Being commercially driven > will be an important opposition factor: the resulting IANA process > starts being referred to as the "linguistic Yalta". > > This is why it is likely that this proposition will never take-off and > will be quickly replaced by the propositions currently discussed by the > ISO 639 series and harmonized with the other multimodal and general > aspects along the guidelines of ISO 11179 this WG refuses to consider. > This ISO compatible proposition is already under implementation by > efforts comparable to the one I direct on the granular distribution of > the IANA extensions. However, the confusion created by the use of > prestigious sponsors and the innovation blockade the proposition > represents will most probably last for a long time and have consequences > on the image of the involved technologies. This is all the more > difficult to understand that this is directly opposed to the desire of > harmonisation of the IESG Charter of this Working Group. > > I note that this Draft also opposes on several points the linguistic > equal opportunity declaration currently circulated among international > organisations and civil society spheres. > > I know this will genuinely not be understood by some of the participants > to the WG-ltru IETF Working Group and may be some of the Members of the > IESG who will want to discuss it. I therefore want to clarify: this is > not a point for discussion, this is a simple description of the reality > this WG wants to rule. Debating of its forecast and solution is > desirable. Disputing its diagnosis would only denote a disqualifying > ignorance as a standardiser. > > I just outline a problem to be solved. I propose a solution. > It is now to the Chairs and authors to decide. > > JFC Morfin > > (*) Layer-8 and Layer-9 are traditional IETF ways to identify commercial > and political aspects. I suggest the use of Layer-10 for the cultural > aspects. This refers to the OSI 7 layer model. They should not be > confused with the Extended Network Systems model developped by Tymnet in > the mid-80s and used by Intlnet and AFRAC which use Layers 8 to 12 to > qualify the Interapplicative, Agent, Actor, Organisation and Societal > layers. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 12:53:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2Hu-0002O2-7z; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2Ht-0002L6-Mf for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02101 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do2hd-0007WY-QX for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:19:55 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:54:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:54:36 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF74E8A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Thread-Index: AcV9f/3oUn+8j/wzSu2dC0e8/nXycgACXHKg From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 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--===============0635538578==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 13:16:11 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2e3-0001EN-OV; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:16:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2e2-0001EI-8f for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:16:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03701 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from keymaster.sharplabs.com ([216.65.151.107] helo=sharplabs.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do33n-0007x7-PK for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:42:50 -0400 Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5UHFhP0008645; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:16:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: "McDonald, Ira" To: "'Mark Davis'" , Addison Phillips , Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:16:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com, LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Hi, Agreed that our time is short, Mark. =20 Nonetheless, the premise that the discussion about the 'script' for=20 subtag is captured in the WG email archive is NOT an acceptable=20 burden on the reader of the future RFC3066bis.=20 An appendix for at least this bit of reasoning would be highly=20 desirable. =20 What the rationale needs to describe is the compelling reason for=20 choosing the second position for 'script' (with attendant backwards=20 compatibility issues and hence the derived requirement for the new 'Suppress-Script' field). The best concise comments on this rationale=20 that I've seen were written by Peter Constable and John Cowan. Addison, I'd submit some text, but I'm not the 'script' expert. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org]On > Behalf Of Mark Davis > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 10:26 AM > To: Addison Phillips; Martin Duerst > Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >=20 >=20 > I realize that your intentions were good, but we are way=20 > behind schedule. >=20 > =E2=80=8EMark >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Martin Duerst" > To: "Mark Davis" ; "Addison Phillips" > > Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 01:13 > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >=20 >=20 > > Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy=20 > explanation > > of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in=20 > some other > > discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule.=20 > I was just > > proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the > > whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. > > But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > At 00:28 05/06/30, Mark Davis wrote: > > >With any document, it is always possible to have incremental > improvements. > > >But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th=20 > of May, so if > we > > >are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have=20 > to wrap things > up, > > >instead of having continual tweaks. > > > > > >=E7=AA=B6=E7=9A=BFark > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Martin Duerst" > > >To: "Addison Phillips" > > >Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group"=20 > > > >Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 > > >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > > > > > > >> Addison, others, > > >> > > >> This question is probably the most frequent question that comes > > >> up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for = this > > >> decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? > > >> > > >> There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. > > >> RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. > > >> > > >> Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might > > >> benefit from such documentation? We already have some=20 > documentation > > >> about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that > > >> could be moved to the appendix, too. > > >> > > >> Regards, Martin. > > >> > > >> At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > > >> >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a=20 > historical > > >question: > > >> >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before = the > regional > > >> >variant? I likely would have structured it with the=20 > regional variant > > >> >before the script variant because for me, the script=20 > variant only > > >applies > > >> >if the content is written while the regional variant=20 > would apply in > both > > >> >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the > direction of > > >> >an archive on the topic, that would help. > > >> > > > >> >Thank you, > > >> > > > >> >Karen Broome > > >> >Metadata Systems Designer > > >> >Sony Pictures Entertainment > > >> >310.244.4384 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >"Addison Phillips" > > >> >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > >> >06/27/2005 10:22 AM > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To: > > >> > cc: LTRU Working Group > > >> > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: > draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >Dear Editor, > > >> > > > >> >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. > > >> > > > >> >Best Regards, > > >> > > > >> >Addison (for the editors) > > >> > > > >> >Addison P. Phillips > > >> >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > >> >http://www.quest.com > > >> > > > >> >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > >> >http://www.w3.org/International > > >> > > > >> >Internationalization is not a feature. > > >> >It is an architecture. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >_______________________________________________ > > >> >Ltru mailing list > > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >_______________________________________________ > > >> >Ltru mailing list > > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Ltru mailing list > > >> Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 13:25:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2mn-0003uU-6J; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2ml-0003uP-Ol for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04198 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw01.quest.com ([12.106.87.68] helo=irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do3CZ-000870-9g for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:51:51 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw02.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:26:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Ltru] documenting script position (was: Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:26:40 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF74EDC@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] documenting script position (was: Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07) Thread-Index: AcV9l64vpBypuJsXQP2neVXLDRMr0AAANvpA From: "Addison Phillips" To: "McDonald, Ira" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2005 17:26:42.0004 (UTC) FILETIME=[E166D140:01C57D98] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6ffdee8af20de249c24731d8414917d3 Cc: LTRU Working Group X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0701118886==" Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0701118886== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSXJhLA0KDQpQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZCB0ZXh0IGluIGRyYWZ0LTA4LiBI b3BlZnVsbHkgdGhhdCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgeW91ciBjb25jZXJucz8NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRp c29uIFAuIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCwgUXVlc3QgU29mdHdhcmUN CkNoYWlyLCBXM0MgSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gQ29yZSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQoNCklu dGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1 cmUuIA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IE1jRG9uYWxkLCBJ cmEgW21haWx0bzppbWNkb25hbGRAc2hhcnBsYWJzLmNvbV0NCj4gU2VudDogMjAwNeW5tDbmnIgz MOaXpSAxMDoxNg0KPiBUbzogJ01hcmsgRGF2aXMnOyBBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzOyBNYXJ0aW4g 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dHRwczovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo+ID4NCg0K --===============0701118886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0701118886==-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 13:25:36 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2nA-0003vA-Im; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do2n7-0003v5-3K for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04242 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com ([32.97.110.129]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do3Cu-00087b-KB for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:52:13 -0400 Received: from westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.11]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UHPI8D492162 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:25:18 -0400 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (d03av01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.167]) by westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id j5UHPIIr297234 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:25:18 -0600 Received: from d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5UHPI3C028335 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:25:18 -0600 Received: from markdavis (sig-9-48-125-237.mts.ibm.com [9.48.125.237]) by d03av01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5UHPHU7028282; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:25:17 -0600 Message-ID: <054301c57d98$adecde90$666e3009@sanjose.ibm.com> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF74E8A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:25:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by e31.co.us.ibm.com id j5UHPI8D492162 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Looks good to me. =E2=80=8EMark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Addison Phillips" To: "LTRU Working Group" Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 09:54 Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > Martin, > > Instead of proposing work to do, propose text. > > I'm tired of this process, so I've made an edit of Section 8 ("Changes from RFC 3066"), modifying the text to make it more Anglo-Saxon (i.e. eas= ier to read for non-Anglo-Saxons). I have also put in a specific paragraph to deal with the placement of the script subtag: > > The choice of placing the extended language and script subtags betwe= en the primary language and region subtags was widely debated. This design w= as chosen because the prevalent matching and content negotiation schemes rel= y on the subtags being arranged in order of increasing specificity. That is= , the subtags that mark a greater barrier to mutual intelligibility appear left-most in a tag. For example, when selecting content written in Azerbaijani, the script (Arabic, Cyrillic, or Latin) represents a greater barrier to understanding than any regional variations (those associated w= ith Azerbaijan or Iran, for example). Individuals who prefer documents in a particular script, but can deal with the minor regional differences, can therefore select appropriate content. Applications that do not deal with written content will continue to omit these subtags. > > The results are posted as draft-08 on my personal website as usual: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-08.html > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-08.txt > > Are we done now? > > Addison > > Addison P. Phillips > Globalization Architect, Quest Software > Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com] > > Sent: 2005=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8830=E6=97=A5 7:26 > > To: Addison Phillips; Martin Duerst > > Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > > I realize that your intentions were good, but we are way behind schedule. > > > > =E2=80=8EMark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Martin Duerst" > > To: "Mark Davis" ; "Addison Phillips" > > > > Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 01:13 > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > > > > > Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanati= on > > > of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some ot= her > > > discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was ju= st > > > proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the > > > whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. > > > But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. > > > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > > > At 00:28 05/06/30, Mark Davis wrote: > > > >With any document, it is always possible to have incremental > > improvements. > > > >But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May,= so > > if > > we > > > >are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap > > things > > up, > > > >instead of having continual tweaks. > > > > > > > >=E7=AA=B6=E7=9A=BFark > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Martin Duerst" > > > >To: "Addison Phillips" > > > >Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" > > > >Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 > > > >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > > > > > > > > > >> Addison, others, > > > >> > > > >> This question is probably the most frequent question that comes > > > >> up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for thi= s > > > >> decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? > > > >> > > > >> There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. > > > >> RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. > > > >> > > > >> Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might > > > >> benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation > > > >> about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that > > > >> could be moved to the appendix, too. > > > >> > > > >> Regards, Martin. > > > >> > > > >> At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: > > > >> >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a histori= cal > > > >question: > > > >> >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before th= e > > regional > > > >> >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional > > variant > > > >> >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only > > > >applies > > > >> >if the content is written while the regional variant would ap= ply > > in > > both > > > >> >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the > > direction of > > > >> >an archive on the topic, that would help. > > > >> > > > > >> >Thank you, > > > >> > > > > >> >Karen Broome > > > >> >Metadata Systems Designer > > > >> >Sony Pictures Entertainment > > > >> >310.244.4384 > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >"Addison Phillips" > > > >> >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > > > >> >06/27/2005 10:22 AM > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > To: > > > >> > cc: LTRU Working Group > > > >> > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: > > draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >Dear Editor, > > > >> > > > > >> >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. > > > >> > > > > >> >Best Regards, > > > >> > > > > >> >Addison (for the editors) > > > >> > > > > >> >Addison P. Phillips > > > >> >Globalization Architect, Quest Software > > > >> >http://www.quest.com > > > >> > > > > >> >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > > > >> >http://www.w3.org/International > > > >> > > > > >> >Internationalization is not a feature. > > > >> >It is an architecture. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >_______________________________________________ > > > >> >Ltru mailing list > > > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >_______________________________________________ > > > >> >Ltru mailing list > > > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Ltru mailing list > > > >> Ltru@lists.ietf.org > > > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 19:04:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do853-0006oA-S5; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:04:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do850-0006hI-K2; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:04:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05572; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irvbhxw03.quest.com ([12.106.87.70] helo=irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do8UM-000089-4n; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:30:39 -0400 Received: from irvmbxw01.prod.quest.corp ([10.1.2.200]) by irvbhxw03.prod.quest.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:05:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C57DC8.2E09CC94" Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:05:16 -0700 Message-ID: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF75283@irvmbxw01.quest.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: Submission: draft-08 of draft-ietf-ltru-registry Thread-Index: AcV9x+5GMlt/N2apT+SG4NxjRO249w== From: "Addison Phillips" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2005 23:05:17.0858 (UTC) FILETIME=[2E982020:01C57DC8] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10102326360364a526efff4aef6b9889 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Submission: draft-08 of draft-ietf-ltru-registry X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 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1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57DC8.2E09CC94-- From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 19:50:08 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do8nI-0003Gj-Hg; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:50:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do8nH-0003ET-4Y for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:50:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA19972 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do9D8-00053P-9e for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:16:50 -0400 Received: from ver78-2-82-241-91-24.fbx.proxad.net ([82.241.91.24] helo=jfc.afrac.org) by montage.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1Do8nF-0003Ic-Cc for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:50:05 -0700 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701014856.04675b50@mail.jefsey.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:49:44 +0200 To: ltru@ietf.org From: r&d afrac Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - afrac.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: Subject: [Ltru] ISO 11179 and other issues X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org 1. there is an ISO 11179 meeting right now in Paris attended by the AFRAC VP Docs and Chair of the AILF. This WG is supposed to have consensually decided that its langtags documentation did not want to consider ISO 11179. Randy made fun at me at the IETF to support such a proposition. This has surprised the US and European Govs officials which were informed. - there is no reason this WG looks a fool. I therefore ask a reconsideration of this position. - to help this I suggest that all those who oppose also state the time they spent working on ISO 11179. - we are ready to forward their remarks to ISO 11179 committee members and to try to get their comments. 2. the preparation of the meeting we have and the workshop I chair tomorrow gathered some people from ICANN or following the IETF and the WG-ltru list. We had a discussion over interesting points. The meaning of a langtag which is not defined in the Draft initiated a debate we will continue tomorrow. Also on the document QA and enrichment by the complementarity of bilingual parallel witing. But a very wise remark came from an Arabic delegate: "only the English mother-tongue people do not associate their language with their culture". I never thought of that. This was verified with the score of participating people, of various cultures. English and non-English mother tongue. When you think about it this seems normal from a koine, and it might explain the total lack of understanding we have both at ietf-languages and WG-ltru? What we all take as obvious despise might be a common cultural attidue/lack? This might explain what we consider as a careless and shocking attitude about the impact of the langtag rigidity, and the way you find commercial aspects normal in this context. One of the participants related a very interesting discussion he had with a very senior Microsoft person, over IDN and multilingualism, and how they further related over the Microsoft real commercial interest to be cultural sponsor rather than a market leader. I asked that we would have more non-English mother tongue people at ietf-languages, what was contested. I should have said people considering their language as the very founding part of their culture and identity, and not only as a communication vehicle. Comments welcome on this which is really new to me. But which seems very true? Also, a question over that, a part from the political and commercial aspects and the fact to have been involved in this Draft for so long, do you really think it will fly the way it is not explained? jfc _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 20:16:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do98T-0004sH-5x; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:12:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Do98R-0004s9-9e for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:11:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21361 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:11:57 -0400 (EDT) From: info@dot-root.com Received: from montage.altserver.com ([63.247.74.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Do9YI-0005oU-Mi for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:38:43 -0400 Received: from dot-root by montage.altserver.com with local (Exim 4.44) id 1Do98L-0008Nn-Ts; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:11:53 -0700 Received: from 82.241.91.24 ([82.241.91.24]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user info@dot-root.com) by dot-root.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3050.82.241.91.24.1120176713.squirrel@dot-root.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:11:53 -0700 (PDT) To: petercon@microsoft.com User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32747 1248] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dot-root.com X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Dear Mr. Constable, I apologise for being late in responding. But I have to get some help to send a mail in English. I feel you do not realise how we perceive what you are doing. In the Internet world there is ISO 3166 which has a clear recognition. RFC 3066 introduced ISO 639 and it provided a way to define, when people need it, other "binomes" when the ISO tables are not enough. This is a lose, light and versatile system. This is what is important. I can use it. Even if the IANA registry is not well managed. You transform the system. You make it formal. You make it heavy and complex. I understand nothing in this text. But I am to obey it. This is why I dislike your ideas. All the more than you make it systematic with locales de facto imposed to Linux, and no commitment from CLDR to never do as ISO planned to do: to register it and to force people pay for it. You harm us, Mr. Constable. We did nothing to you. The "." changes nothing. It is a separator. We are no fool, and we use it. The token can be any length, the subtag remains 8alphanum - however we do not mind. You say we break retrocompatibility: with what? We talk necessarily of usage which were never even considered. If an old system fails recognising our tag, what then???? Since we do not want them to be compatible (this could be confusing). We do not want a single ASCIInternational global space. Do you understand that? We want a space per community: technical end to end interoperability must work everywhere, but cultural person to person interintelligibility must be protected. Your system forbids its most elementary protection, which is the support of its diversity and its self-denomination/definition by the people. Anyway, we will do it. And we expect it to be quite used because it addresses a need. I am sorry to have to tell you that: with all my respect, the world is not a zoo for ASCII visitors. We are not much interested in the IETF paperwork. We are not even interested in academic running code: we are interested in used code and real practices. This is the best RFC. This is why you should carefully read the mail of M. JFC Morfin. I think his position is good and permits you to also develop your ideas. No one wants the fight you want: but no one wants to be under pressure to speak American or to buy products from a specific group of manufacturers. We want competition. You try to reduce competition. We want to empower cultures and therefore their languages. Not to put their dominant editor in a can with a gummed ASCII langtag, on the shelves on the e-commerce software shop. We just succeeded to get culture out of WTO's reach: it is not to get them back through their languages. Languages are not for sales, just language oriented tools are, but on an equal opportunity basis for the sellers and the users. Including the right to use open source without a commercial locale. Mr. Constable, I am sorry. Please also get real. Not only technical, commercial and political. F. Charles. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 21:08:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoA0s-0003Uh-5w; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:08:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoA0r-0003TT-JC for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:08:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA25482 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.125]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DoAQj-0007W0-EM for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:34:57 -0400 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:08:03 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:08:03 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ltru] ISO 11179 and other issues Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:08:01 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 11179 and other issues Thread-Index: AcV9zsP0h5NUit1mQPK1viQROWULeAACE6vA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2005 01:08:03.0629 (UTC) FILETIME=[54EF95D0:01C57DD9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org] On Behalf Of r&d > afrac > 1. there is an ISO 11179 meeting right now in Paris attended by the AFRAC > VP Docs and Chair of the AILF. This WG is supposed to have consensually > decided that its langtags documentation did not want to consider ISO 11179. > Randy made fun at me at the IETF to support such a proposition. This has > surprised the US and European Govs officials which were informed. >=20 > - there is no reason this WG looks a fool. I therefore ask a > reconsideration of this position. > - to help this I suggest that all those who oppose also state the time > they spent working on ISO 11179. > - we are ready to forward their remarks to ISO 11179 committee members and > to try to get their comments. I think it would be *FAR* more appropriate for members of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC32, if they are concerned, to contact the chairs of this WG or to ask the membership of this list as a whole what reasons our decision not to reference ISO 11179 were based upon, rather than to have Mr. Morfin representing this WG to them. > I asked that we would have more non-English mother tongue people at > ietf-languages, what was contested. No suggestion that the IETF-languages list be open to mother-tongue speakers of languages other than English has ever been contested. Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 21:34:14 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoAQ2-0006t8-P0; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:34:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoAQ0-0006sz-Sk for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:34:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27371 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DoApr-0000PI-Tl for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:00:57 -0400 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:34:01 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:34:01 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:33:58 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Index: AcV90YCb3AyNHpozTKCruqtR5w7JTAACEhlg From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2005 01:34:01.0326 (UTC) FILETIME=[F56548E0:01C57DDC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] RE: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org > From: info@dot-root.com [mailto:info@dot-root.com] > I feel you do not realise how we perceive what you are doing. I feel that your perception of (a) what is being done and (b) what *my* contribution to what is being done as well as my objectives are seriously mistaken. > You harm us, Mr. Constable. We did nothing to you. Precisely how have I (or anyone else here) harmed you? Your chief critique appears to be: > The "." changes nothing. It is a separator. We are no fool, and we use it. > The token can be any length, the subtag remains 8alphanum - however we do > not mind... =20 > We do not want a single > ASCIInternational global space. In neither of these respects have we made *any* change from RFC 3066. Thus, we cannot have harmed you any more than you were already harmed by RFC 3066. I can appreciate you may have desired a revolutionary change in infrastructure, but that is not what we undertook; we undertook a relatively minor, evolutionary revision that could add some benefits while working within the limitations of existing implementations. If that offends you, I can do no more than regret that you take offence at something many consider useful. > All the more than you make it systematic with locales de facto imposed > to Linux, and no commitment from CLDR to never do as ISO planned to=20 > do: to register it and to force people pay for it. I'm not sure I understand. The work being done here is not tied to locales, and I personally certainly am not doing anything to impose Linux (or hinder it, for that matter).=20 The work being done has no dependent relationship on CLDR whatsoever. (CLDR may be applying the work done here; whether or not that is the case is irrelevant to the work being done here.) > We want competition. You try to > reduce competition. There is nothing in what we are doing that inhibits competition.=20 =20 > We want to empower cultures and therefore their languages. Not to put > their dominant editor in a can with a gummed ASCII langtag, on the shelves > on the e-commerce software shop. We are empowering cultures by extending a widely-used infrastructure to accommodate a much wider variety of cultures and cultural distinction in metadata elements by default. Again, you appear to have a significantly wrong perception both of me and of the work being done here. I can only attempt to correct this by responding to your comments, though I may not be able to convince you. If not, then there may not be any need to discuss these points further: we may have reached a point at which the fitting thing is to agree to disagree. Regards, Peter Constable _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jun 30 23:50:18 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoCXi-0002Zz-KS; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:50:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoCXg-0002Zu-La for ltru@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:50:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07077 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DoCxT-0001IP-F5 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:16:58 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id j613nsI23704; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:49:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from nodnsquery(133.2.206.133) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via csmap id c4bd1e4c_e9e4_11d9_94f0_0030482532aa_18419; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:01:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from Spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO00674A; 1 Jul 05 12:54:55 +0900 Received: from spooler by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32); 1 Jul 05 12:54:29 +0900 Received: from EBOSHIIWA.it.aoyama.ac.jp (133.2.210.64) by it.aoyama.ac.jp (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG006749; 1 Jul 05 12:54:21 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20050701124803.0420d790@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:48:35 +0900 To: "Addison Phillips" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Subject: RE: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 In-Reply-To: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF74E8A@irvmbxw01.quest.c om> References: <634978A7DF025A40BFEF33EB191E13BC0BF74E8A@irvmbxw01.quest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 88b11fc64c1bfdb4425294ef5374ca07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ltru@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org At 01:54 05/07/01, Addison Phillips wrote: >content-class: urn:content-classes:message >Content-Type: text/plain;charset="utf-8" > >Martin, > >Instead of proposing work to do, propose text. Sorry, yes, I should have done that. >I'm tired of this process, so I've made an edit of Section 8 ("Changes from >RFC 3066"), modifying the text to make it more Anglo-Saxon (i.e. easier to >read for non-Anglo-Saxons). I have also put in a specific paragraph to deal >with the placement of the script subtag: > >The choice of placing the extended language and script subtags between >the primary language and region subtags was widely debated. This design was >chosen because the prevalent matching and content negotiation schemes rely >on the subtags being arranged in order of increasing specificity. That is, >the subtags that mark a greater barrier to mutual intelligibility appear >left-most in a tag. For example, when selecting content written in >Azerbaijani, the script (Arabic, Cyrillic, or Latin) represents a greater >barrier to understanding than any regional variations (those associated >with Azerbaijan or Iran, for example). Individuals who prefer documents in >a particular script, but can deal with the minor regional differences, can >therefore select appropriate content. Applications that do not deal with >written content will continue to omit these subtags. This looks great! Thanks a lot. Martin. >The results are posted as draft-08 on my personal website as usual: > >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-08.html >http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-08.txt > >Are we done now? > >Addison > >Addison P. Phillips >Globalization Architect, Quest Software >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group > >Internationalization is not a feature. >It is an architecture. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis@jtcsv.com] >> Sent: 2005$Bj;%((B6$Bk|/(B0$Bkw!&(B 7:26 >> To: Addison Phillips; Martin Duerst >> Cc: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com; LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >> >> I realize that your intentions were good, but we are way behind schedule. >> >> $Bc`;.(Bark >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin Duerst" >> To: "Mark Davis" ; "Addison Phillips" >> >> Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" >> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 01:13 >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >> >> >> > Just to make things clear, I was not asking for a lengthy explanation >> > of every issue that ever came up on the mailing list, or in some other >> > discusson. I was also not proposing to delay the schedule. I was just >> > proposing that documenting the arguably most disussed point in the >> > whole proposal, namely the position of the script tag. >> > But I'll leave it to the editors to do the right thing. >> > >> > Regards, Martin. >> > >> > At 00:28 05/06/30, Mark Davis wrote: >> > >With any document, it is always possible to have incremental >> improvements. >> > >But we will never finish at that rate. It is now the 60th of May, so >> if >> we >> > >are going to finish by the end of May as planned, we have to wrap >> things >> up, >> > >instead of having continual tweaks. >> > > >> > >$Bn,%+mz%=(Bark >> > > >> > >----- Original Message ----- >> > >From: "Martin Duerst" >> > >To: "Addison Phillips" >> > >Cc: ; "LTRU Working Group" >> > >Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 17:08 >> > >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Submission: draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >> > > >> > > >> > >> Addison, others, >> > >> >> > >> This question is probably the most frequent question that comes >> > >> up from newcommers. Is there any chance that the reason for this >> > >> decision is documented in the draft, e.g. in an Appendix? >> > >> >> > >> There are some examples of how to do this, see e.g. >> > >> RFC 3987, Appendix A, or RFC 3023, also Appendix A. >> > >> >> > >> Are there any other difficult-to-understand things that might >> > >> benefit from such documentation? We already have some documentation >> > >> about how we got to the various length restrictions; maybe that >> > >> could be moved to the appendix, too. >> > >> >> > >> Regards, Martin. >> > >> >> > >> At 04:16 05/06/29, Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com wrote: >> > >> >I'm a newcomer to the list, so forgive me if I have a historical >> > >question: >> > >> >Why was the decision made to put the script variant before the >> regional >> > >> >variant? I likely would have structured it with the regional >> variant >> > >> >before the script variant because for me, the script variant only >> > >applies >> > >> >if the content is written while the regional variant would apply >> in >> both >> > >> >the written and spoken contexts. If you can point me in the >> direction of >> > >> >an archive on the topic, that would help. >> > >> > >> > >> >Thank you, >> > >> > >> > >> >Karen Broome >> > >> >Metadata Systems Designer >> > >> >Sony Pictures Entertainment >> > >> >310.244.4384 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >"Addison Phillips" >> > >> >Sent by: ltru-bounces@lists.ietf.org >> > >> >06/27/2005 10:22 AM >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To: >> > >> > cc: LTRU Working Group >> > >> > Subject: [Ltru] Submission: >> draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Dear Editor, >> > >> > >> > >> >Please find draft-ietf-ltru-registry-07 attached. >> > >> > >> > >> >Best Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> >Addison (for the editors) >> > >> > >> > >> >Addison P. Phillips >> > >> >Globalization Architect, Quest Software >> > >> >http://www.quest.com >> > >> > >> > >> >Chair, W3C Internationalization Core Working Group >> > >> >http://www.w3.org/International >> > >> > >> > >> >Internationalization is not a feature. >> > >> >It is an architecture. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> > >> >Ltru mailing list >> > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >> > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> > >> >Ltru mailing list >> > >> >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >> > >> >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Ltru mailing list >> > >> Ltru@lists.ietf.org >> > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru